I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow terrorist infiltration, terrorist indoctrination, terrorist subversion and the international terrorist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Critics have said Boykin's remarks could undermine a more than two-year Bush administration effort to promote good relations with Muslims in America, as well as play into the hands of those who have fanned anti-Americanism abroad by casting the counterterror war as an attack on Islam.
Yes, keep letting fundie nutcases like Franklin Graham and Boykin flap their gums, and see what happens.
Morons.
Will bloggers get credit for bringing the story on this dangerous nutcase to the fore? Did we (or some of our more illustrious number) keep this story in the foreground?
Actually Lisa Myers of all people did a story about this on NBC nightly news.
but we need to keep on it. the idea that this man has power in our military sends a chill down my spine.
Shorter Boykin: now that I've been forced to apologize about my anti-Islamic remarks, I'll bring up those Christian nutcases that I still won't call terrorists.
Well, he's sorry, and that's totally good enough for me. I am looking forward to seeing his new & improved, well-balanced comments at a snake-handling tent revival meeting with some Children-of-the-Corn looking motherfuckers.
Asked about the general's church comments, Adel al-Jubeir, the foreign affairs adviser to Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah, told reporters Friday: "If true, outrageous. I thought they were insensitive. I thought they were unbecoming of a senior military official, and certainly unbecoming of a senior government official."
It’s an embarrassment to Theocrats everywhere. How about some context A.P.?
Folks, read the whole article.
"I do believe that radical extremists have tried to use Islam as a cause for attacks on America," Boykin said. "As I have stated before, they are not true followers of Islam. In my view they are simply terrorists, much like the so-called 'Christians' of the white supremacy groups."
The general came down exactly where we'd want him to. There are a lot of awful things being said and done, save your outrage for the actions and statements of the Bush administration that are dismantling our America. The fundamentalists we shall have always with us, it's a free country, at least until Bush and company finishes doling it out to his campaign contributors, at which point we and they will all be hurting in just the same ways.
what Moli said.
I think this administration is trying to get us all killed.
OT, but fun...
I urge Quick and Co to wolf down copious quantities of an explosive rogan josh before Dubya's appearance and then to let their digestive organs erupt in mute, gaseous protest. The rest of us can watch eagerly for a puzzled clouding of the presidential brow, a slight flaring of the already rather simian presidential nostrils. The Quick and the dead, you might say.
Tee hee. I do hope the Ozzie parliament manages to do something embarrassing, at least.
Roberta, you said: "There are a lot of awful things being said and done, save your outrage for the actions and statements of the Bush administration that are dismantling our America."
You don't have enough outrage to take on all the nutjobs? Man, I am brimming with the stuff.
In all seriousness, the apology didn't seem that bad to me, either, especially coming from a fundamentalist Christian. But the fact that this fundamentalist Christian is able, along with countless other loons, to have a government sponsored platform for his unbelievable beliefs, this deserves outrage. How did we get here? Boykin can apologize all he wants, but the fact is that he said it, he believes it, and he is part of this administration. An administration that claims to want to change the tone, AND win over the Arab world. Bull.
this feels like living in the middle ages: in only one day we get boykin's christianity, mahathir muhammad on the jews, and the pope saying he'll stay put because god tells him to.
these are all connected by their profound anti-rationalism.
i've never seen anything quite like it before.
Even the WaPo files a protest:
Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Thursday that "at first blush" it doesn't seem that Gen. Boykin has violated any military rules. That may be, but he displayed abominable judgment. Gen. Boykin is entitled not only to have religious views but to express them publicly. Yet to watch videos in which the general, with his chest full of medals, describes God's plan for President Bush can only induce queasiness about his blending of religious and military affairs. It's a far cry from the bland comparison Gen. Myers offered: wearing his uniform to the National Prayer Breakfast. Gen. Boykin's description of "a demonic presence in [Mogadishu] that God revealed to me as the enemy" is weird, and not a little scary. This is the person who's assessing the intelligence that's going to help us find Saddam Hussein?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...-
2003Oct17.html
Now I'm confused. Is Christ bigger than Allah or not? How can I make reasoned spirital decisions if I don't even know which God can really kick ass?
Isn't anybody gonna call him on this "Christian nation" crap?
why do these guys hate the Constitution???
"Gen. Boykin's description of 'a demonic presence in [Mogadishu] that god revealed to me as the enemy' is weird, and not a little scary."
Correct. It's not a little scary. It is very very scary.
If an individual is an adherent of an "End of Days" view of this Earth, and that person holds a position in the government where that belief could be acted upon--this should be cause for removal of said person from that job. If General Boykin was a Druid and tried to put up a Polished Marblehenge near the White House, the ensuing uproar would cease him in his tracks.
Now, should anyone who believes in a foreordained eschatological melt-down for all mankind be allowed to help this "final conflict" along, and get paid by taxpayer money to boot? Why do I have to ask this question?
Secularism saved religion (by keeping it free from governmental interference), and certain religions return the favor by trying to further the cause of a final destruction of this beautiful planet. Not only must Boykin go, but all who would aid and abet a spiritual terrorist--such as an avenging deity--must also leave positions that could further that mass slaughter.
As if.
***
The photographs were taken shortly after the disastrous "Blackhawk Down" mission had resulted in the death of 18 Americans. When Boykin came home and had them developed, he said, he noticed a strange dark mark over the city. He had an imagery interpreter trained by the military look at the mark. "This is not a blemish on your photograph," the interpreter told him, "This is real."
"Ladies and gentleman, this is your enemy," Boykin said to the congregation as he flashed his pictures on a screen. "It is the principalities of darkness It is a demonic presence in that city that God revealed to me as the enemy."
I'd really like to see the picture he was referring to. I'd feel a bit bad taking the piss, if there really WAS a demonic presence there.
Beth, Christ has height but Allah is quicker. Strength or speed? It's been a coaches dilemma for centuries...
Seriously, I wonder if Boykin was asked to apologize? I wonder if someone went up to him and said it would be politically wise to do so? And who would this be? Not Rummy--never heard the remarks (cough).
By the by, if I make a racist rant here but apologize later, am I forgiven? I don't know that I should be. This was no mistatement by Boykin--he really believes this stuff. THAT'S why the man shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a place where policy decisions are made.
In all fairness, I would say that the original comments were worse than the apology. Is he convincing? No, but at least he is saying the right thing, if not really believing it.
Alternatively, imagine WWRD (what would Rumsfeld do)? He'd probably insert the phrase "historical revisionism", remind people that Condi keeps him out of the loop, and call the press a bunch of pumpkin heads, or words to that effect.
This jerk should have not have been given an opportunity to give his half assed apology, which absolutely mischaracterized what he said.
He should have been immediately removed from his position, and shipped to a desk job in Alaska to push him toward retirement.
Whether to forgive him for his remarks is a moral/spiritual/philosophical question which can never be clearly decided. On the other hand, whether to let him remain in a position where his delusions can undermine decision-making and further tarnish America's image is pretty much a no-brainer.
Is Christ bigger than Allah or not? How can I make reasoned spirital decisions if I don't even know which God can really kick ass?
Let's put 'em both in a cage and have them fight it out: Divinity Death Match.
the apology is offensive becasuse it just says "those who I offended misunderstood me."
I don't give a damn about this asshole or his sincerity regarding his statements.
What I find absolutely outrageous is that clearly this man's "religious" convictions and lectures to the fundies were a known quantity when he was vetted for his job, and they hired him anyway.
Atrios,
Absolutely. He lies about what he said. And gives a trademark Republican "non-apology" apology.
Colonel Boykin figures prominently in Alamo Girl's Waco lunacy
It's not just Alamo Girl, Lowell Ponte reveals Boykin’s Waco history and his
shocking connection to the Clintons and to Presidential candidate General Wesley Clark. This link to the prospective Democratic presidential or vice-presidential 2004 standard bearer is a major reason for the Leftist media’s half-truths.[…]
During the Clinton Administration he followed the Commander-in-Chief’s orders to carry out horrifying evil – the same evil whose innocent victims’ blood also covers the hands of his accomplice Wesley Clark. But this, of course, is not why the Leftist media wants him silenced, punished and removed from every position of influence. His sin in their eyes is not that he once served Satan [uh, Clinton?]– but that he now seeks zealously to serve God.
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?
ID=10386
Its hysterical when Republicans whine about blood being on Clark's hands..
Bwahahaha..
hay, i think i could take that ali guy with one hand tied behind my back.
knowing a little about fundamentalist teachings, i can understand something about Boykin's point of view. Fundamentalist Christianity teaches that there is an unseen spiritual realm where angles and demons fight. These battles in the spiritual realm have an impact on the physical realm we live in. put in this context, i becomes difficult to differentiate Osama and satan—much less trying to explain it to the non-fundamentalist Christian world. While i don't believe Boykin equates Islam with evil, his words will handicap him in his job.
The whole controversy reinforces the importance of separating church and state. The bush administration wears its Christianity on its sleeve—not because of its convictions, but for political gain and power.
This is evil.
I've always had a problem withthe Christian Soldiers out there, the ones who are willing and alltoo gleeful to kill for Jesus. That's sickening, perverse and dispicable. This man needs to loose his job. He's a politcal embarassment.
The Saudis have spoken - (hey that's BIG BIG OIL talking there), so I fully expect General Boykin to be reassigned to some desk job down in the basement of Pentagon.
Of course Ms. Plame's leaker will never, ever be found. I wish the Saudi's would ask Bush about her leaker.
General Boykin and the Armor of God Lowell Ponte
Days ago a new study found that Republicans and conservatives tend to believe in traditional, time-tested values and in God. Democrats and liberals tend, instead, to believe in astrology, UFOs, magic, fortune-telling, occultism, moral relativism and situation ethics that bend with every breeze or whim.
So was Bush appointed by God or not?
Waco legacy
Yes, if you read the recent Frontpagemag article on Boykin, it defends his need for religious fervor by saying he is haunted by Bill and Hillary's decision to "kill the children."
Norbizness, I hate to quibble, but I think your future Boykin quote is not quite right.
I am looking forward to seeing his new & improved, well-balanced comments at a snake-handling tent revival meeting with some Children-of-the-Corn looking motherfuckers.
It would probably be something more like this:
"I am looking forward to seeing his new & improved, well-balanced comments at a snake-handling tent revival meeting with some Children-of-the-Corn looking siblingfuckers.
What do you think?
via uggabugga, Bible code-breakers:
On March 8, Bill Keller wrote in the New York Times:
Two weeks ago, a group of senior intelligence officials in the Defense Department sat for an hour listening to a briefing by a writer who claims - I am not making this up - that messages encoded in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament provide clues to the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. One of the officials told me that they had agreed to meet the writer, Michael Drosnin, author of a Nostradamus-style best seller, without understanding that he was promoting Biblical prophecy.
knowing a little about fundamentalist teachings, i can understand something about Boykin's point of view. Fundamentalist Christianity teaches that there is an unseen spiritual realm where angles and demons fight. These battles in the spiritual realm have an impact on the physical realm we live in. put in this context, i becomes difficult to differentiate Osama and satan—much less trying to explain it to the non-fundamentalist Christian world. While i don't believe Boykin equates Islam with evil, his words will handicap him in his job.
The whole controversy reinforces the importance of separating church and state. The bush administration wears its Christianity on its sleeve—not because of its convictions, but for political gain and power.
This is evil.
antiphone - things are worse than I imagined them to be - this administration is really completely insane. We need a CIA led coup d'etat before someone actually does lose it and sets off a nuclear warhead.
Like I said above, Moli got it right in the very first comment on this thread.
Calpundit has this:
Boykin spent much of Friday with Pentagon lawyers and public relations officials fashioning his statement. One official said he had seen five versions of the statement, which was released in Washington at 6:45 p.m.
I told you, when Saudi's talk Bushie listens--he knows who the boss is.
"...without understanding that he was promoting Biblical prophecy."
That's their answer for everything they don't want to admit to or deal with publicly. They don't understand, they are misunderstood, or they have not heard the comments, are not aware of what incident they're being asked about.
Ponte, a conservative who disguises himself as a libertarian by wearing a pocket protector, is wrong. Many fundementalists believe in "UFO's, magic, fortune-telling, moral relativism and situation ethics"
UFO's
We consider that what our primitive society has observed as Aliens are in actuality the heavenly hosts, angels, fallen angels, watchers, wicked hosts in high places, rulers of the dark world, powers, and principalities stated in the Bible.
http://tinyurl.com/rfdv
magic
Magic was an art form carried down through the ages by the followers of Nimrod in his many guises and these are the so called pagan gods of Classical history...The pursuit of this kind of "magic" opens a person up to disobedient, demonic powers. Once "hooked" the person, over time, becomes more and more demonically influenced to their own harm.
http://tinyurl.com/rfdv
fortune-telling
Evil spirits like to make the pointer on a ouija board move as they spell out answers to questions. Playing with Ouija boards, Tarrot cards, etc, seems to open one up to demon possession.
http://www.trustbible.com/astrology.htm
moral relativism
Read any column by Ann Coulter
situation ethics
Listen to any White House press briefing
Patriotboy - nice comment, and the fact is that if fundies didn't believe in magic, they wouldn't be having bonfires for the Harry Potter series, or decrying halloween. They absolutely believe in magic in the most Medieval sense of it.
So was Bush appointed by God or not?
Absolutely fucking not.
Thanks for clearing that up for us, God.
I probably should have said "bonfires of the Harry Potter series," instead of "bonfires for..."
they wouldn't be having bonfires for the Harry Potter series,
I just have to say, that is one of the most offensive things they do.
If any of them would bother to read the books, they might figure out that it's basically a biography of Dick Cheney. (though Rowling calls him "Lord Voldemort")
That timeline was interesting. I like how it included all these fringe things, but left out:
April 19, 1995 - Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City bombed.
Yep, no connection there.
You know, when I was on active duty if I had heard a subordinate soldier say some shit like this, the only hard part of my decision would have been whether to ship him off to mental hygiene or alcohol rehab. With an armed NCO escort, of course.
Is Christ bigger than Allah or not? How can I make reasoned spirital decisions if I don't even know which God can really kick ass?
Let's put 'em both in a cage and have them fight it out: Divinity Death Match.
Jacob could take 'em both. See Genesis 32:22-31
I bet Shiva could slap Yahweh silly.
I bet Shiva could slap Yahweh silly.
I'm guessing because of all the extra arms, right? Good one.
When I was Signal Officer of the 2nd Brigade 9th ID, I had a problem like this in the commo plaoon.
On of my sergeants was a fundy, and he insisted on trying to proslytize the troops.
The soldiers, however, were fighting back. One of them wouldn't sleep on a cot in a tent...he'd tell the sergeant that he wanted to sleep ont he ground so he'd be closer to his master, Satan!
Of course, my comm chief had a little chat with the sergeant after discussing it with me. And a chat with the troops, too.
Who's the bad diety
That's kicks non-believers with piety?
Yahweh!
Ya damn right!
Who is the God that would break the neck of that Allah dude?
Yahweh!
Can you dig it?
Who's the cat that won't cop out
When there's liberals all about?
Yahweh!
Right On!
They say this cat Yahweh is a bad mother...
SHUT YOUR MOUTH!
I'm talkin' 'bout Yahweh.
THEN WE CAN DIG IT!
He's a complicated God
But no one understands Him but Gen. Boykin.
YAHWEH!
I'd feel a bit bad taking the piss, if there really WAS a demonic presence there.
I had the same thought. But in that case, our weapons would be useless against it. The evil presence would simply leap to a different host, a la the old Star Trek episode with the astro-spirit of Jack the Ripper.
But seriously. What bugged me was how this was reported by the SCLM. Most of the stories I saw/read were cast in neutral language along the lines of "certain Muslims may find Boykin's statements less than entirely helpful." Uh, okay, that's one angle, but hello! how about something more like "any rational person should be very alarmed by this total nutjob"?!
How dare that infidel bastard say that Yaweh is bigger than me. I can kick his shriveled old ass any day of the week.
.
Hey, Allah--he wasn't just talking about bigger overall. He was talking about bigger where it counts. Know what I mean, pindick?
.
Yaweh: That's not what your mother said last night.
.
Allah--How dare thou! I will smite the shit out of thee!
.
Bring it, motherfucker. I'll be right here waiting.
.
Actually the thing that really bothers me isn't so much the: My God is Bigger than your God thing.
It is that this guy thinks that Bush was specifically made president by God. That God stepped in when Bush lost the popular vote and simply "raised" Bush to the presidency.
As a 4 star general he does really have the power to bring on a coup, if his guy loses in the next election and that is scary.
You two are such pussies. Neither one of you could get it up for a swan. Why don't you both just go back to your mountaintops and think seriously about where you're taking your followers.
Me, I'll be impregnating half of Corinth while you're doing it.
If you two don't shut up I'm going to have to get mideastern on your asses
"My comments to Osman Otto in Mogadishu were not referencing his worship of Allah but his worship of money and power; idolatry," Boykin said. "He was a corrupt man, not a follower of Islam."
Hey, he sounds like Easterbrook!
Actually the thing that really bothers me isn't so much the: My God is Bigger than your God thing.
It is that this guy thinks that Bush was specifically made president by God. That God stepped in when Bush lost the popular vote and simply "raised" Bush to the presidency.
but if you follow the bush-is-president-because-god-made-him-president argument to its logical conclusion, you can only conclude that god also made clinton president (for two terms) and chirac, and saddam hussein, etc. god's either got an extremely limited attention span, or he seems pretty non=partisan to me
I'll stomp both your asses
Ron, Boykin is a three-star. After this, I don't think he'll get his fourth star until he gets a commission in the Salvation Army.
Yahweh,
Shape up. I'm going to keep my eye on you
I've always had a problem withthe Christian Soldiers out there, the ones who are willing and alltoo gleeful to kill for Jesus. That's sickening, perverse and dispicable. This man needs to loose his job. He's a politcal embarassment.
Jorge | Email | Homepage | 10.18.03 - 2:38 pm | #
Has Bush ever fired anyone?
Hey Yahweh, Allah, Ganesh, Set, Osiris -
You guys are all amateurs.
You two are such pussies. Neither one of you could get it up for a swan. Why don't you both just go back to your mountaintops and think seriously about where you're taking your followers.
Me, I'll be impregnating half of Corinth while you're doing it.
Zeus | 10.18.03 - 4:25 pm | #
Hilarious. Gods were much more fun back in the old days.
Yeah, that's it. Some religions have become humorless and rigid and lifeless.
All of them, Pie.
You guys are all amateurs.
Come again?
pie - "Some religions have become humorless and rigid and lifeless."
A good observation. In fact most religions become humorless and rigid and lifeless once they become fully insitutionalized. A good example of that is the Tibetan Buddhist sect I used to be a member of: The New Kadampas. Way way too organized; consequently, always asking for money for something and you don't dare question anything said by the founder, Geshe Kelsang. That was just about the end of it for me and organized religion.
pie - that "Odin" there was me. Sorry - forgot to switch back.
A good example of that is the Tibetan Buddhist sect I used to be a member of: The New Kadampas.
They should have kept the drummer from the original Kadampas. His incense problem wasn't really that bad.
I just had a thought. Could it be that General Boykin and General J.C. Christian are really the same person? I just did an extensive Google search and didn't find a shred of evidence that they've ever been seen together. Given the similarity of their beliefs and thought processes, this has to be more than just coincidence.
These new gods don't know how tough it was in the old days. You'd be standing there chewing on a bunch of grass and some neanderthal would "honor" you by sticking a spear through your kidneys.
Zeus--Apparently you forgot that I'm the one who knocked up Mary. Boy, she was some fine tail.
Anyway, I don't expect much from someone who keeps fucking his immediately family members. Keep it in your pants.
.
Patriotboy - "They should have kept the drummer from the original Kadampas..."
You know how it is, one big record and all the band members start hating each other and the next thing you know it's a reunion tour and a "Hell Freezes Over" style CD with constant reply during pledge drives on PBS.
I'll stomp both your asses
Ganesh
Whenever you feel ready, just jump, Elephant Man.
.
I could kick all your asses with my good eye covered.
I was kicked out of the army by commie felloe travelers disguised as officers. They claimed that I was "funny." That was a damned lie.
The only reason I demanded daily prostate exams was because I was certain that the French had placed a transmitter there to monitor our conversations in the chow line. Espresso became popular shortly after I was discharged. I rest my case.
I could kick all your asses with my good eye covered.
Odin
They got yours to huh.
I bet it was Coyote the Trickster, the theiving bastard.
I could kick all your asses with my good eye covered.
Odin
They got your's too, huh.
I bet it was Coyote the Trickster, the theiving bastard.
That's better
I could kick all your asses with my good eye covered.
Odin
They got your's (yours) too, huh.
I bet it was Coyote the Trickster, the theiving (thieving) bastard.
That's better
Osiris
Can anyone tell me how to contact Boykin's god. I have a great idea for a movie.
Quentin - Gonna call it "Reservoir Gods?"
I'm through with nonviolence. Bring it on!
OT: Becky Miller, the "honest conservative" Atrios pointed out earlier, is posting on alt.radio.talk.dr-laura if you want to discuss her article about Franken's book with her.
boyz, boyz. quiet down.
Yo, Astarte - Bite me!
It's good to see God reads Atrios. At least He's staying informed. By the way, Big Guy, if it wasn't you, who is to blame for Shrub a Dub's little party in the Oval room?
I should amend that: It's good to see All the Gods reading A.
My Pagan posse, representing it Old School Style. Eris in the hisouse!
I think that if you look at the broad sweep of history, there really is this low grade conflict between these two religions that has simmered for centuries and on occasion flares up into real violence. It just functions on a time scale that makes it hard to discern. Our life-spans are too short to put it together. But there is this underlying conflict.
It is really the task of men and women of good will both religious and nonreligious to recognise this conflict and try to channel it into peaceful directions. The tragedy of this generation is that we have allowed extemists on both sides to define the terms of the conflict. We have people in positions of authority pouring gas on the flames. People with simplistic black and white world views who feed on the violence.
SW - If you look at the issue with the historical perspective you spoke about, and then look back even further, you see what the conflict really is over. It is all about power. All religions started that way, with humans wondering where the power comes from, and making up stories about it. And then they wanted to harness that power, so their stories got more specific and the gods were born.
Oops - that last comment by Freya was me.
FYI, you should see what the freaks at LGF are saying about this (hat tip to vaara over at Silt).
MJS wrote: "If an individual is an adherent of an 'End of Days' view of this Earth, and that person holds a position in the government where that belief could be acted upon--this should be cause for removal of said person from that job."
Think about this for a second and tell me if you really mean it--that because of a person's religious BELIEFS they should be removed from a government job if that job allows them the POTENTIAL to further that belief. Do you really want to institute a religious test for government workers that focuses completely on a person's theology and not on their behavior?
And what about people who participate in a religious rite that includes eating flesh and drinking blood--you know, Catholics. Should they be allowed to hold any government office at all?
-because of a person's religious BELIEFS they should be removed from a government job if that job allows them the POTENTIAL to further that belief. Do you really want to institute a religious test for government workers-
The Democrat line is that only Christians should be barred from public office/duties. Hatred for adherents of Judeo-Christian belief systems is part and parcel of the Democrat's overall bigoted viewpoint.
The Democrat line is that only Christians should be barred from public office/duties.
retarded ovum - I'm not a Dem, but I know that's bullshit. Thing of it is, I've never heard anybody else in a position as high as Gen. Bonkers espousing their religious views so much and painting our faux war against terror as religious strife. When we hear a Jewish or Wiccan or Muslim general do the same, there will be the same outcry, at least from this corner.
But what's worse is not just that this guy is pushing his faith from a lofty position. It's that he is exacerbating an already dicey situ with the Muslim/Arab world. Really, it almost seems these wackos want to inflame hatred so they get their perpetual, holy war.
Eggy, DemocratIC. Not Democrat.
Are you deliberately being ignorant, or is this your usual behavior?
What dems, specifically, are you talking about?
I'd love to know which of them would say that, just before they slit their throats
You're an idiot. Why do I bother.
Gee, NTodd, I, unfortunately, saw that Chuckles guy over at LGF.
Another man of questionable mental health.
MJS wrote: "If an individual is an adherent of an 'End of Days' view of this Earth, and that person holds a position in the government where that belief could be acted upon--this should be cause for removal of said person from that job."
Think about this for a second and tell me if you really mean it--that because of a person's religious BELIEFS they should be removed from a government job if that job allows them the POTENTIAL to further that belief. Do you really want to institute a religious test for government workers that focuses completely on a person's theology and not on their behavior?
-- Parse, above
No, the case of Boykin is not like this. It is much worse.
This is not simply a matter of "personal inspiration" that supposedly gives a person comfort but is compartmentalized from their secular decisions.
It is not even a case of secular policy being guided by religious principles, as when members of the Christian Right oppose abortion and gay marriage.
Boykin SEES VISIONS IN THE SKY! Or at least in pictures of the sky. To repeat from upthread:
The photographs were taken shortly after the disastrous "Blackhawk Down" mission had resulted in the death of 18 Americans. When Boykin came home and had them developed, he said, he noticed a strange dark mark over the city. He had an imagery interpreter trained by the military look at the mark. "This is not a blemish on your photograph," the interpreter told him, "This is real."
"Ladies and gentleman, this is your enemy," Boykin said to the congregation as he flashed his pictures on a screen. "It is the principalities of darkness It is a demonic presence in that city that God revealed to me as the enemy."
To echo Atrios' favorite phrase, HOLY SHIT! The man is clincally insane. He may well base his "intelligence" as Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence on visions.
I, unfortunately, saw that Chuckles guy over at LGF.
Sorry you had to endure that. You'll be a stronger person as a result...
Gods were much more fun back in the old days.
What happened to the Zeus I used to know? The one who would turn himself into a cow and pick up chicks?
Hatred for adherents of Judeo-Christian belief systems is part and parcel of --
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
tell me if you really mean it -- because of a person's religious BELIEFS they should be removed from a government job if that job allows them the POTENTIAL to further that belief.
There's probably a word for that type of argument, but I don't know what it is, so I'll just call it absurd overgeneralization. Some religious beliefs are harmless, even beneficial. Others are dangerous. It's ridiculous to think that a single rule could be applied in all situations.
You've also misstated the issue. The problem is not that the job allows him to 'further' his beliefs whatever that means, but that his beliefs interfere with his job, thus endangering all of us.
Beth, I didn't mistate the issue. I just think MJS' reaction to it caused that poster to suggest a solution more extreme than he/she realized. Similarly, the person who noted that the Boykin case was different--they should have responded to MJS with that, not me. MJS generalized from the specific case of Boykin and proposed a solution that should be instituted for all cases of a particular type or religious belief. I think the suggested solution is clearly unconstitutional. But those who (usefully) want to defend the constitution against people like Bush and Boykin didn't seem to object to the assault on the constitution proposed by MJS.
Eggbert, are you on the thuglican's payroll, or are you a sincerely ignorant fool?
It's not about what people believe. Boykin could believe that the universe is controlled by the mating habits of fruit bats. I don't care what he believes, so long as he can suspend whatever wacky theology he might have and act in a rational fashion and adequately persue the ends of his position. I do care what actions he takes because of these irrational beliefs.
This man believes we can (and should!) kill people because an invisible man who lives in the sky tells him to.
So yes, I think he and others in the government who have eaqually bizarre ideas should loose their job because of their beliefs.
Boykin could believe that the universe is controlled by the mating habits of fruit bats.
And he'd be right...
>>only Christians should be barred from public office/duties.
when said Christians start spouting anti-Constitutional rhetoric such as "this is a Christian nation", then they SHOULD be called on it.
And when I hear a Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu start spouting such that this is a "Muslim nation" or a "Jewish nation" or a "Hindu nation" then I'll call them on that too.
Either we as Americans take the Constitution as our guiding principles or we don't - but when Christians or any other group pointedly IGNORE the Constitution to claim the nation for their own religious group, then there is absolutely NO reason why that should be tolerated. It's too bad that your own sense of persecution (Or your own fucked up version of logic) blinds you to this.
parse,
MJS was talking about a very specific situation: one in which someone whose believes make global destruction a positive goal is in a position to bring that destruction about. I'm no constitutional scholar, but I'm fairly certain first amendment doesn't require us to give lunatics access to nuclear weapons.
I'm fairly certain first amendment doesn't require us to give lunatics access to nuclear weapons.
I'm sure as soon as they rush through a Constitutional change in the naturalization requirement for Ahnold, the Senate will get right to work on this...
Since "The God of Language" has set the precedent on this thread:
Boykin should not "loose" his job...as in "set loose" or "free" or "loose the dogs of war."
he should, however, LOSE, his job, as in forfeit, no longer posess.
sorry to be a pedant.
------
parse (and egg): As I (and others) said on the previous thread, this has nothing to do with anyone's private beliefs or any kind of "religious tests." (I don't see how MJS said it is) That's just midirection. The issue is that Boykin was recently promoted to a policymaking position [which I thought was supposed to be a civilian one], and has publicly advocated the Christian equivalent of Jihad as a guiding principle for American foreign policy. Oh, and he's publicly proclaimed that Dubya is our Divinely chosen leader. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is a)nutty, b) anti-Constitutional, and c) exactly what Osama bin Laden wants to hear American officials saying.
Noone I've seen is saying that he should be denied a job because of his faith. We are saying that he should be denied an important political appointment, charged with protecting our safety, because this shit makes us less safe.
Crude, coarse, monotheistic religions have no sense of balance.
Oh it's so tedious. Quite stiving for perfection and learn that anything in excess is bad.
Although I think this guy is a dangerous bumpkin, I'm a little disappointed that he gave up so easily. It would have been better if he had stuck to his guns and forced Leader into showing his true colors (i.e. wacko fundamentalist).
Stizzle,
That's really the point though. Rove must be spinning like a top trying to both apease the Loony fringe and let the Ma and Pa crowd at home know that he's not really a nut (wink!) but a down home Sunday Christian just like them.
But it can't go on forever. One of these days Bush will slip up and either piss of the fundies by not being a bigot or he'll show his true colors as a Bible Thumper with God's Own Arsenal and well, kill us all.
I'm hoping for the former.
*Cthulhu eats the god of language*
Cthulhu for President! Why settle for the lesser of two evils?
http://www.cthulhu.org/
Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn!
Boykin can't be too crazy. This morning he was blaming Islam for the Red Sox defeat.
Michael in DC wrote: "As I (and others) said on the previous thread, this has nothing to do with anyone's private beliefs or any kind of 'religious tests.' (I don't see how MJS said it is)"
Well, what MJS said was: "If an individual is an adherent of an 'End of Days' view of this Earth, and that person holds a position in the government where that belief could be acted upon--this should be cause for removal of said person from that job."
See, all the individual has to be, according to MJS, is an "adherent" of a particular view and be in a postion where the view "could be acted upon" in order to give cause for removal.
If others want to say it is not Boykin's adherence to a view and his potential to act upon it, but his pubilc behavior in support of the view that causes them to oppose him--fine. But that's not what MJS said. And my post was to say "MJS, is that what you really mean?"
I see that nobody bit on that thing about Catholics. But I should't single them out. Wouldn't we all be safer if we said no adherent of a religion based on human sacrifice--you know, Christianity--should be allowed to serve in government.
Boykins' words are what we need to hear! Someone needs to show these bastards who's boss! Like my counterpart, egg, said, Democrats and liberals just can't stand Christianity! They must hate Jesus!
All throughout history, these fucking Muslims have attacked us first, and we've bloodied them.* Time for payback!
* "shhh... what about the Crusades, chicken?" "SHUT UP!!"
Boy, parse, you didn't get that handle for nothin', did ya?
OK, I'll stop trying to read MJS's mind, and just stick to my larger point about, you know, the actual thing we're talking about. Which, again, has nothing to do with anyone's "faith" and everything to do with the dangers of crazy people making defense policy. Which leads me to call bullshit on your "cannibal" and "human sacrifice" baiting questions.
Yes, I do have the handle parse for a reason.
Why do you call my "cannibal" and "human sacrifice" questions bullshit? Don't Catholics believe that bread and wine are literally transformed into the body and blood of Christ during the Mass? Don't Christian believe that salvation depends of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who was human as well as divine. No doubt these things sound commonplace to you, and don't strike you as proof that a person is "crazy" and should not be making defense policy. But to an objective observer, those beliefs might suggest something different. It's easy to accuse people who have views that are different from yours as being crazy. And that's not so far from accusing people who have views that are different from yours as being evil, or Satanic. And that's what we're upset about Boykin doing, right? Shouldn't we work pretty hard to avoid falling in a similar trap ourselves?
Finally, how is it that you get to decide what "the actual thing we're talking about" is? I didn't try to read the mind of MJS--I quoted the actual words MJS used, so I guess that would be pretty close to the "actual thing MJS is talking about." And instead of trying to be a mind reader, I asked "Is this what you really mean." MJS is troubled by what Boykin said. So am I. MJS appears to have suggested a solution that's unconstitutional. I disagreed. That's all.
A northern farmer group trapped the spirit of US President George W Bush inside an earthen pot and sank it in the Ping river in Chiang Mai.
Earlier, they cursed the world's most powerful leader and said they hoped his spirit would perish.
The Northern Peasants Federation rallied outside the US consulate in Chiang Mai against what they called Washington's manipulation of the farm agenda.
Thailand and the US are likely to start free-trade talks soon.
Protesters stuffed a photograph of Mr Bush in an earthen pot in a spirit-sealing gesture before throwing the pot into the Ping river.
The act was meant to curse the trapped spirit and wish upon the soul its demise. Pongpan Chumjai, a protest leader, said Washington should stop military interventions in other countries for the sake of world peace.
Sounds like a job for General Boykin!
Zeus! Zeus!!!
The ox is roasting, the nectar poured, Aphrodite finally has her hair done to her satisfaction, Hercules is done with the stable...and WHERE, I ask, are you?!
I checked Corinth. They said you went chasing off after some heifer hours ago... Oh, thanks, dave! After all the trouble I had with Europa...
So help me, Zeus, if you, Odin, Osiris, Set, Allah, and Yaweh are playing poker with Shiva don't expect any sympathy from me.
You know what happened last time: he palmed those kings and left you all looking like minor deities. Leave Shiva to Ganesh. He can always get Kali to help. They've been dealing with him for incarnations.
Buddha, if you're as enlightened as I think you are, you'll stay right under that tree. You have NO idea what these guys can bring on. Artemis goes hunting, and Apollo takes off in his chariot when they all come over. Even Minerva hasn't figured out exactly how to handle them all at one time.
At least God is busy planning worlds, and I saw Changing Woman come by with Coyote and a blanket full of stars just a few minutes ago, so that's taken care of...
And Osiris? Isis called. Something about a Book. Ra's NOT happy.
Odin, Frigg, or maybe it was Freya, I can't tell those two apart, sent Gna to say that she knows YOUR future. Valhalla knows what she's thinking. She never will say, but don't you think you should check?
As for YOU, Yahwah and Allah. You two just wait until Abraham gets home! You know how he is about obedience.
And Zeus, by Jupiter, you get back here. I haven't seen Pandora lately, and you know the trouble she caused the last time she went off on her own.
I'm not having the ox get cold while we chase all the world's troubles. Even the Furies are here and behaving themselves.
You get yourself up here!
I think Buddha can handle himself. He did convert the God of Death to Buddhism, after all.
That's why I've always admired Buddha. He never beat anybody up. Just sat them down and had a long talk about life and all that shit until everyone was mellow.
I still don't want any Buddhist Fundies running the government, anymore than I want Xtian, Jewish, Muslim Pagan or Athiest Fundies running the government. See a pattern emerging here?
Just say no to Fundamentalism!
Dude:
Did you erase my comment?
Folks, read the whole article."I do believe that radical extremists have tried to use Islam as a cause for attacks on America," Boykin said. "As I have stated before, they are not true followers of Islam. In my view they are simply terrorists, much like the so-called 'Christians' of the white supremacy groups."The general came down exactly where we'd want him to. There are a lot of awful things being said and done, save your outrage for the actions and statements of the Bush administration that are dismantling our America. The fundamentalists we shall have always with us, it's a free country, at least until Bush and company finishes doling it out to his campaign contributors, at which point we and they will all be hurting in just the same ways. Roberta Taussig
Roberta, when he stands up wearing his uniforms and makes those statements he represents the Army and the US government. He was wrong to do that. Even if everything he said was correct, and even if he had every right to say what he did, he was wrong to say it as a representative of the Army and of the government.
Had he not worn his uniform, then it would have not been a statement of the Army and the government.
Something that bothers me: Why does Boykin get to decide who the "true followers of Islam" are? Does this mean I can decide who the "true Christians" are? Or do you have to be a General to do that?
"Hera sounds serious, boys."
"O'Neill, who is this Nyarlathotep?
"Uh-oh ... Herc, where are you when we need you?"
Parse,
I didn't say you were trying to read MJS's mind. I said I was. So I stopped, and went back to talking about what Boykin said. Which is the topic of the thread; thus: what "we" are actually talking about.
I'll leave any real rebuttal of "human sacrifice" and "cannibalism" to someone better versed in theology, and just say that (and I think you'll agree) it's basically a tired old reductio ad absurdum of the faith.
I called it bullshit because it has nothing to do with the case. Boykin has every right to believe in his holy war crap. He has no right to claim it as US policy--not without democratic consent. And from his public statements, made in uniform as a representative of the US Army, he has no business being a policymaker, or even a General IMHO. Trying to make this a Free Exercise of Religion issue is like making Rush's ESPN job a Freedom of Speech issue. It's a dodge. It's a misdirection. It is, in a word, bullshit.
Damn. That harpy found me here. This is what I get for leaving a paper trail.
If I can just get past those darn flying monkey outside of Delos, I might be able to get to Olympia undetected.
I swear, if that moron Ares spills his guts one more time...zap! To the moon!
``My comments to Osman Otto in Mogadishu were not referencing his worship of Allah but his worship of money and power; idolatry," Boykin said. "He was a corrupt man, not a follower of Islam."
WTF is it about right-wing Christians that makes them think they can constantly get away with lying? Diddn't somebody say something sometime somewhere about bearing false witness? Or is that like the separation of church and state also not being an American doctrine just because theysay it isn't. Right-wing Christians can just make up shit at will about whatever they want because God told their demented pastors that it was His Will?
And it was as much the L.A. Times that broke this story as NBC News, by the way. Can I get a little love for the poor, bedraggled fourth estate?
And well said, Michael. Religious fanatics don't belong in the military leadership; nor do they belong in the Oval Office or the Attorney General's office; they shouldn't be named Secretary of Education, either, and lie about their ``miracle'' back home in Texas.
And why do all these faithful true believers seem to lie shamelessly whenever they feel like it? Why is that?
Parse that.
``My comments to Osman Otto in Mogadishu were not referencing his worship of Allah but his worship of money and power; idolatry," Boykin said.
Hasn't anyone noticed the basic contradiction here? If he considers worship of money and power to be idolatry, how can he possibly consider Bush to be chosen by God? I mean, we certainly have proof positive that the Bushies worship money and power.
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mcher...ald/
3396664.htm
You guys all seem to forget who's really in charge here. Our calculations are almost complete.
Hey, mice, don't get too cocky: you never know when a galactic thruway is gonna come through and muck up everything.
(and bravo for bringing Douglas Adams into our little Cosmology Cage Match)
42!
Whoops, shoulda been bravi for the (plural) mice.
[I believe this is the thread where I was already playing language dork...]
By the way:
It's official now -- Condi Rice is doing The Sergeant Schultz Defense.
You HAVE to check this out.
Yer all a buncha posers.
I'm the one they really worship.
.
Alright, I've about had it. You boys are all in a heap of trouble now. I try to take a nap for a few centuries, but no, you boys have just got to raise all this commotion and wake your old ma up. Knock it off now or you're toast! Remember, I was the first one to say "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out!"
BTW: Atheist fundies? WTF? Fundie implies irrationality and bizarre beliefs.. Snake-handling, tongue-speaking, fire-and-brimstone, "This vehicle may be unoccupied upon arrival of the Rapture" bumperstickers..
Maybe you mean 'militant?' I can accept 'militant atheists' but I'd consider them a BETTER choice for military leaders. If you're going to give a guy access to WW3-starting weaponry, I'd feel safer knowing he's afraid of dying and thinks there's no such thing as heaven.
Subversive - agreed. How awesome is it to hear the administration that nominated Henry Kissinger to head up the 9/11 investigation talk about blood on anybody's hands? Awesome. Allende spins in his grave...
Patriotboy - damned right conservatives believe in situational ethics. What other justification have they ever presented for Kissinger's actions in Latin America? "We had a cold war to win."
No other way to justify supporting Pinochet the murderer.
I don't want to hear another word from any of you also-rans.
Thus spake... me
Parse - it has nothing to do with what Bumpkin believes. It has to do with what Bumpkin promotes - while in uniform.
If Bumpkin thinks Satan takes shape in dark clouds over Mogadishu, and that he is locked in a death-struggle with the Prince of Darkness, that is certainly his business. I believe that Lita Ford will someday make a comeback - call us both crazy.
HOWEVER - when Bumpkin gives speeches to this effect in uniform, and states specifically that the logic he has used in past policy and strategy decisions is based on his god being "stronger" than the other god, the citizens who ultimately have control over the military in the U.S. (read: you and me) have reason to be concerned, and have the right to remove his crazy ass from his post.
I don't give a crap what this nutjob believes, or what he practices at home - I don't care if he reads the Apocrypha or the Koran or the New International Version or the Satanic Bible. But I DO care what he bases his policy/strategy decisions on. It appears to me that he bases those decisions - at least in part - on a fundamentalist interpretation of the bible.
from the bbc
At least 87 US soldiers have died in the past two weeks while aid agencies counted at least 470 Iraqi dead in the city of Falluja alone last week, with 243 women and 200 children among them.
Why did we kill 400 women and children?
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