I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Well, I can't speak for the militia dude, but I personally use my AAA guns only for sport and home defense, so I don't really see the problem.
Atrios, its a well established fact that militant whites are merely protecting our rights, where militant arabs are traitorous heathens. Besides, its not like there's ever been a major terrorist incident by a militant nutball and his bomb-making federal-government-hating friends. And don't say Timothy McVeigh, because we all know Saddam Hussein was behind those attacks.
Yeah, we have a starling problem at my place. I suppose it could come in handy for that.
And frankly, I'm getting really tired of all the air traffic over my house. The other day a loud plane woke my daughter up from her nap. Rude bastards.
You know, an armed society is a polite society, after all.
Silly public,
White people can't be terrorists.
Geeze.
Two years ago, Somerville moved to Wexford County from elsewhere in northern Michigan. He served in the Army from 1978 to 1984 and was trained as an intelligence analyst assigned to the elite Special Forces.
During a brief court appearance last week in Grand Rapids, Somerville said: "The people will have their day. ... There's a quiet civil war going on in the country."
The Army sure turns some nuts lose, don't they. Well, he's right about the quiet civil war; I would rather it remain a weaponless conflict, however.
Wonder how many others there are around here like that.
David - I recommend the good old Soviet ZU-23. Not quite as fancy as the guy in your story had, but it should take care of the starlings and low-flying aircraft.
WRT to the far right's "civil war": I'm predicting it will be unleashed shortly after a Democratic president takes office in 2005.
Crime rates are lower in neighborhoods where people own anti-aircraft artillery. I had the data to prove it, but I accidentally shot my computer.
When confronted with well-armed idiots, I always remember 'the revolution needs shock troops'.
As a former student of Dr. Lott's, I can vouch for the data supporting his claim that anti-aircraft artillery discourages crime.
Am I to understand from that story that Muslims aren't white or whites aren't Muslims?
I remember Dr. Lott calling me about a survey on anti-aircraft artillery ownership.
Good to see we're bridging that Terrorist Gap. We can't let those dark skinned foriegners have a monopoly on Terrorism. That's just unDemocratic!
Our founding fathers were white. Our nation was founded on white values.
Samlex: White militiamen are never Muslim.
WRT to the far right's "civil war": I'm predicting it will be unleashed shortly after a Democratic president takes office in 2005.
And then the Right will finally start talking about civil liberties.
Sure, Patriotboy, that was their whole schtick during Clinton's tenure. Clinton was installing a police state through the federal bureaucracy and the United Nations and planning to gradually enslave us all in the New World Order. Ruby Ridge and Waco were all about government oppression and "thought police."
David - what you fail to understand is that there are good thought police and there are bad thought police. The good thought police are simply there to help you make the right choices about God, which candidate to vote for, etc. The bad thought police want to force the homosexual agenda down our throats, kick Jesus out of our country, and all sorts of other bad things. Honestly, which would you rather have running the country?
David: that's why I recieved my first usenet death threat. Some nut over at misc.activism.militia was claiming that he saw Russian armor massing at a base near his house and I called him a coward for not grabbing his second amendment guarantee against tyranny and facing down the new world order imperialists. Apparently, he thought I was a bigger threat to our security than the crypto-commies.
We should get japanese design consultants to help us make really cute thought police.
I bet Shiva could slap Yahweh silly.
Whoops, wrong thread. sorry
This sounds remarkably like an incident in northern New Hampshire a few years ago. Man named Drega, a white, angry, gun nut with a huge grudge against the local authorities went into town one day. The people in Michagan should feel fortunate, in New Hampshire four people and the gun nut ended up dead. You can often hear his supporters calling on the radio saying that he was a victum of the system. The black helocopter bunch even some "libertarians" have a lot of sympathy for him.
Our media goes easy on white fascists. Has since since before the time of H. Luce and continues to today. Maybe if liberals built bunkers and filled them with arms they'd notice. As is pointed out they'd go code red if some minority members were noticed doing it.
How about Hello Kitty Thought Police?
Complete with "Arnie's Army" action figures!
How about Hello Kitty Thought Police?
OH GOD NO!
David Neiwert said:
WRT to the far right's "civil war": I'm predicting it will be unleashed shortly after a Democratic president takes office in 2005.
This sends a chill through my blood. I fear the next election will be chaos. The Apocalypticons have gotten to me. I'm half expecting it. Wholey dreading it.
The left will take to the streets if there's any more funny business, and the brownshirts will be waiting, triggered by thinly veiled code words from the WH (like, "Something needs to be done about these un-American protesters.")
Shouldn't we be preparing for this eventuality?
FWIW, I do not believe that the US Army will would be unanimously behind a rightist suppression of dissent. The Clarks, Zinnis, Gardiners, and even the Powells indicate otherwise. That doesn't mean it would be pretty, however.
Uh, where in the article does it say he is white? Anybody? thanks--
I'll join any militia that can get me a ride on the Space Cruiser Yamato and let me blow something up with the Wave Motion Gun.
Sorry to be OT, but this is too deliciously good not to share:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe...age_to_bush_jr/
hehe!
Thanks Shaw! Wow.
Shaw, it is deliciously good today, and it was deliciously good yesterday when I read it in the Chicago Trib. Tena said it was also in the Dallas Morning News yesterday.
heheheh. It's making the rounds.
Incredible, Shaw. Why do I get the feeling there's a lot more to this WH vs. CIA dustup than meets the eye?
pie - you beat me to it on the Dallas Morning News inclusion.
Isn't it great? I've been wondering when this aspect of the monumental fuck-up that is this Bush presidency would start being talked about.
This is just too good.
Wow, Shaw. Amazing catch!
You know, the hardest thing for me to understand about this whole Oedipal thing between Bush and Shrub is... Momma Bush! Oh well, I guess there's not accounting for taste.
GHWB might see some of his presidential papers made public a little earlier than he'd like. Elliot knows what to look for.
Ho Hum, He didn't have a Phalanx, or any of the really good shit... So, I for one would say that 30 day sentence of directing traffic in downtown Bagdad in a Bush mask should suffice, he shouldn't even work up a sweat doing that duty....
Yes, Beth. I thought exactly the same thing. It gives me hope that there are forces at work against Bushco (esp. the cons) that we're not seeing.
AnneW,
By not mentioning the arrestees race, the Grand Rapids Press is either embarking on an unprecedented revolutionary experiment in journalism, or telling you that he is white.
hello kitty thought police?
*shudders*
that's gonna haunt my dreams, lol.
I believe that true Amurikans should have the right to arm themselves however they see fit...
Shit, we could solve this whole war on terror pretty damn quick if the Pentagon would issue ICBM-W's to a select number of us god-fearing, RNC patriots.
Once them A-rabs and other darkies realize that 300-400 biblical warriors are driving around the country with a 6-pack and an Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile Winnebago, they'll crawl back in their mudholes quicker than you can say "Johnny Ashcroft."
Problem solved.
(with apologies to Gallagher)
Yeah pie, but it also scares the hell out of me that the future of our democracy may depend on the tender mercies of George I and the CIA.
BTW, Patriotboy, it's great to see your man General Christian back on the job. I can't think of anyone better qualified to comment on Boykin's statements.
...it also scares the hell out of me that the future of our democracy may depend on the tender mercies of George I and the CIA.
Hopefully, they won't get all the credit. They're not the only ones who have a stake in this, after all.
special forces, eh....
a regular real life rambo this one.
"They took a clean cut kid
and made a killer outa him
that's what they did" - Bob Dylan
I just read Bush Sr.'s 'message' to Bush Jr. and I think Georgie Anne Geyer doesn’t fully appreciate the Bush family’s wily ways. Bush Sr. doesn’t just sit at home shaking his head. It wasn’t reported at all in the U.S. media but poppy went to China in advance of lil’ George’s Asian trip. It’s convenient to have family members who can work behind the scenes like poppy and the completely invisible Prescott Jr. They’re all in it together I tell ya.
all your thoughts are belong to me. you so cute.
OT: Becky Miller, the "honest conservative" Atrios pointed out earlier, is posting on alt.radio.talk.dr-laura if you want to discuss her article about Franken's book with her.
Just read Shaw's link, yiy, that's a jaw dropper. I wonder if some of the same dynamic has anything to do with the moderate Republican's stance on Iraqi funding. Maybe the denial just isn't working anymore.
In the Clinton years, wingnuts crashed an airplane onto the WH lawn, and sprayed the WH with assault weapons fire. And Kaus is warning about left-wing violence?
Kaus is warning about left-wing violence?
Come on now, don't you remember all those left-wingers who went to Spain to fight the fascists? Of course the Left is violent...
Quick, someone name an act of specifically political "left wing violence" in the United States since the death of the Symbionese Liberation Army (i.e., in the past 20-30 years), other than at WTO protests. Then compare it to Timothy McVeigh, the anti-choice terrorists, the militias and skinheads.
Best reason to vote for Howard Dean:
(http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/usreport-
politics-arab.html)
Dean also won applause by reiterating his recent promises to send former President Bill Clinton to the Middle East as his peace broker if he is elected next year.
Now, if he promises to parachute Shrubya into the Hindu Kush to track down OBL, it's Dean in a romp!
I encourage everyone to scroll down to the outstanding entry just below this one in David Neiwart's blog on tribal sovereignty. The increase in the rhetorical assault on tribal sovereignty is alarming and an underreported side effect of the politics surrounding the recall.
Ishmael--
So all those riot cops in Seattle were left-wing?
Or are you conflating property belonging to publicly owned corporations with life and implying that its destruction is violent?
"Shaw, it is deliciously good today, and it was deliciously good yesterday when I read it in the Chicago Trib. Tena said it was also in the Dallas Morning News yesterday.
heheheh. It's making the rounds.
pie | 10.18.03 - 4:34 pm | #"
And to think I went to read the Boston Globe so I could nurse my inner child's pain over the Bosox' loss, and I found that piece.
Oh there is no joy in Bosville, but it did make this sad, sad heart a little lighter.
Glad to read it's getting around.
Wait'll next year, oh gawd, will this pain never end??
It's not reported widely because it's not news. Everyone knows the woods are full of militia types, ready to bring the cleansing fire when the trumpet sounds.
Oh, and they usually vote Republican. I remember Costa-Garvas' "Betrayal" about such a group, and how they were being "reached out to" by a man in a slick suit who looked like he worked for Grover Norquist. At the time the critics laughed it off.
Jimbo Jones - I took a Native American history course in undergrad (one of the hardest courses I ever took, by the way,) and the teacher, who was a Native American, though I forget what tribe, made it clear that Native Americans traditionally lose ground during Republican administrations. He had the data to back it up, but that was many many years ago and I have no way to retrieve the data now.
Shaw, you're talking to family that loves the Indians. I share your pain.
I was, uh, actually talking about the Cleveland Indians.
Do we really know this guy is right-wing? Aren't liberals allowed to start militias?
However, if he is a right-winger, it kind of reminds me of a gun show I went to as a kid, under Bush I, when the gun types were complaining that Bush I was too liberal for them.
I would include recent arson and vandalism attacks conducted by the likes of Earth Liberation Front and Animal Liberation Front bits of left-wing violence.
So far, it's fairly subdued, limited to property damage, and hasn't taken any lives, but terroristic violence of any kind is unacceptable in my view, and liberals would do well to denounce this kind of behavior clearly and vehemently, which they mostly have done.
That said, it pales in comparison to the wave of right-wing terrorist violence the nation endured betweeb 1995 and 2000, which in fact took numerous lives and threatened many more. And as this case demonstrates, the threat has only marginally subsided.
The response of the mainstream right to all this? Denial, as in Rush "Protesteth too much" Limbaugh's denunciations of President Clinton for "blaming" Oklahoma City on right-wing radio ranters like himself. This became conventional wisdom. Nowadays, Ann Coulter's remark about Tim McVeigh and the New York Times Building pretty well sums up the prevailing attitude.
One book recomendation for those interested in native american rights: "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse" by Peter Mathiessen.
http://tinyurl.com/rfzr
It made me hate it made me hate Bill Janklow when hating Bill Janklow wasn't cool.
We should all mount guns on our vehicles and have them locked, loaded, and ready. The traffic would move more smoothly and we would all be a lot nicer to each other don't ya know?
All those peaceniks protesting against wanton death and destruction are the ones mostly likely to commit crimes against humanity in Kaus's estimation...
Do we really know this guy is right-wing? Aren't liberals allowed to start militias?
One of my first characters in misc.activism.militia was a commander of an Islamist miliia based in Dearborn, MI. Colonel Nidal told the folks there that they had a common interest in bringing down the secular fascists who were removing religion from our society.
Their response was interesting. They were very conflicted about whether to support an Arab milita, although some welcomed Col. Nidal as a fellow in arms.
um, mondo dentro, i've been trying to send you an email (about the race for the super meme to defeat the right, among other things) to your hotmail address but it keeps on coming back - pls let me know how i contact you
thx
hey, thx/hypatia--weird, but i can't mail out from hotmail either. i've got no clue wassup.
i'm gonna let it ride a while, and try to contact you later.
cheers
They were very conflicted about whether to support an Arab milita
This is something I've been wondering about -- has 9/11 confused far-right extremist groups? Are former anti-Semites having a hard time deciding whether to hate Jews or Arabs? Maybe David Neiwart knows the answer.
uh, thx, that last "anonymous" was me!
Hey! General Boykin's God!
Yeah, YOU, motherfucker. I'm gonna kick your sorry ass, God, you right wing piece of shit. Come over here, God! Now bend over. Cause I'm gonna stick my boot so far up your ass I'll be tap dancin' on your teeth! Now listen hear, God, you leave all the other gods alone. You hear me, boy? That includes Allah and Buddha and Shiva --and you bet your ass that includes Ras Tafari too.
John G, I mentioned in "Rush, Newspeak and Fascism" that 9/11 indeed divided the militias, between their "True Believers" and the "footsoldiers," who marched off in opposite directions. The TBs, who are the smaller but more virulent and violence-prone segment, see GW Bush as an extension of Clinton, and are certain that 9/11 was part of the Jewish/New World Order conspiracy. Footsoldiers, who are only marginally anti-Semitic anyway, have gone firmly into the Bush camp.
There was another discovery of an enormous pile of guns and explosives just a few days back; it was in the home of a Florida bail bondsman who had been murdered. Got about five seconds mention in national media, although it sounds like the dead guy may have been more an over-avid collector than an out-and-out milita type.
link to CBS news report:
http://snurl.com/2pwv
has 9/11 confused far-right extremist groups? Are former anti-Semites having a hard time deciding whether to hate Jews or Arabs?
You're thinking about this all wrong. Irational hatreds need not be mutually exclusive: we can hate many groups at the same time. The enemies of our enemies can also be our enemies!
Thanks, David. I apologize for spelling your name "-art."
I should think that the distinction is obvious.
He served in the Army from 1978 to 1984 and was trained as an intelligence analyst assigned to the elite Special Forces.
You have all been told already that any story involving a mere analyst is no big deal. Should be obvious, really.
for an additional twist on the father/son policy dichotomy, I put up some links here. *
Granted, most of what is written there tends to focus on the UN Population Fund vs. Poppy sending Junior opinions via his Humanitarian outlets.
Also, keep in mind that in the summer of '02, Scrowcroft was said to be speaking for Poppy when he criticized the bellicosity on Iraq. All of it mixed together does bring about questions which won't be answered until someone gets some truth serum.
*if that don't work, cut and paste.
There is also an interesting "Unauthorized" Bio of the Elder Bush which can be read here:
GHWBush Biography
As for the validity of all in it...dunno. The parts up to the congressional years are worth a lot, and I've seen verification elsewhere of much cited there.
ratzenhiemer!
oh well. the bio:
http://www.padrak.com/alt/
BUSHBO....html#BOOKPARTS
Between the 29th of September 2000 and the 14th of October 2003, 2,654 Palestinians have been killed. Of this figure, 493 were children – one in every five killed was a child aged 17 years or younger. 47,000 have been injured. Of this, 2,500 will be permanently disabled, 500 of who are children. 100 children have lost their eyes due to being shot with rubber bullets. 279 people have been killed by Israeli assassinations – 132 were civilian bystanders and of this 32 were children and 25 were women.
One of my first characters in misc.activism.militia was a commander of an Islamist miliia based in Dearborn, MI. Colonel Nidal told the folks there that they had a common interest in bringing down the secular fascists who were removing religion from our society.
Their response was interesting. They were very conflicted about whether to support an Arab milita, although some welcomed Col. Nidal as a fellow in arms.
This doesn't surprise me much.
I've heard about some Swiss guy who converted to Islam and was supposedly a money man for both Islamic terror groups and various European white-supremacy groups such as the National Front. Also on the same continent, hard-right Orthodox Jewish groups are teaming up with the very same white-supremacy groups to drive out the various Arab immigrants.
It seems a lot of these underground groups team up to overthrow the powers that be, even if they are mutually opposed to one another in their principles.
This sends a chill through my blood. I fear the next election will be chaos. The Apocalypticons have gotten to me. I'm half expecting it. Wholey dreading it. The left will take to the streets if there's any more funny business, and the brownshirts will be waiting, triggered by thinly veiled code words from the WH (like, "Something needs to be done about these un-American protesters."Shouldn't we be preparing for this eventuality?FWIW, I do not believe that the US Army will would be unanimously behind a rightist suppression of dissent. The Clarks, Zinnis, Gardiners, and even the Powells indicate otherwise. That doesn't mean it would be pretty, however.
Mondo Dentro - remember the National Guards work for the governors. I am inclined to agree with you about the regular army, though.
A lot of people are going to sit there and think (or say) "Oh, this is America. It can't happen here." That is what Krugman says about the coming economic crack-up, too. And when one unimaginable thing happens to a society, suddenly ~nothing else~ remains unimaginable. In fact, one reason Bush is President is that the idea that someone could steal the election is unimaginable in America. If he appears to be reelected, it will not be a valid election, and all bets are off.
Take a look at the early stages of the Spanish Civil War. Then look at the "Red-Blue Map" and check the distribution of militia organizations. The psychological dynamics will be similar, but the size of America will make a lot of it very different. Then consider the violence of the 1960's. That is the closest to what it will be like.
Imagine the violence of the 1960's with in-place militias and the Patriot Act in force. If you think that the press is not telling you what is going on now, it is nothing like what was happening in the 1960's. There were riots in East Texas which were simply never reported by anyone. In the late 60's and early 70's there were snipings on the Houston Police force every day. They never appeared in the news. It would have encouraged more of them.
We really are moving towards the more nasty times in history, not away from them.
It isn't as nasty as the Civil War because everyone seems to be battling for control of the Federal government, not to separate their states from the nation. But that is what the Spanish Civil War was over, too.
Our Federal structure and the American nationalism that controlled the Twentieth Century makes a big difference. I am not sure it protects us from much, though. We are headed for what the Chinese historians described as "interesting times."
OT, hella story on another Vietnam massacre by US troops, the year before My Lai:
http://customwire.ap.org/
dynamic...EMPLATE=DEFAULT
it's picked up from the Toledo Blade but not up yet at http://www.toledoblade.com
was kaus always a freeper?
Speaking of terrorists, why didn't the media report McVeigh's religion in connection with his terror attack? Many Americans favor "profiling" Muslims in airports but don't seem to be too keen on profiling Southern Baptists in Ryder truck rental offices.
Maybe if liberals built bunkers and filled them with arms they'd notice. As is pointed out they'd go code red if some minority members were noticed doing it.
EPT: This has happened already, back in the mid-eighties. Remember the "Move" fiasco in Philadelphia, when the Philly police force bombed a house in West Philadelphia, setting a fire that destroyed a significant piece of the neighborhood and incinerated most of the "Move" members?
Actually, the story about the award Ted Kennedy's receiving from Poppy has been around for some time.
Last weekend I e-mailed Atrios a copy of an article on this topic from the Arizona Republic, which had actually been printed a full week before that, on Sunday, October 5th (on page A7),and which my husband only accidentally chanced upon right before we put the paper out for recycling.
I couldn't figure out which thread to post it in, and figured Atrios would feature it somewhere prominently. But, hey, Atrios must get lots of e-mail about potential items to feature here, and he certainly has an embarassment of riches to choose from, so I can't really fault him too much for overlooking it. So many scandals, so many scent trails to follow up, and so little time...
But the moment I read the AZ Republic article I knew there was something very curious going on. The Republic article makes a point of emphasizing that "Former President Bush has sole discretion on who receives the award, said Penrod Thornton of the George Bush Presidential Library Foundation."
In addition, it states that "Recipients of the Bush Award receive a crystal sculture and a $20,000 cash prize."
Wonder what it's a sculpture OF???
Oops, that should be "crystal sculpture", not "sculture".
And in the spring of 2005, "the great experiment",... failed?
EPT: This has happened already, back in the mid-eighties. Remember the "Move" fiasco in Philadelphia, when the Philly police force bombed a house in West Philadelphia, setting a fire that destroyed a significant piece of the neighborhood and incinerated most of the "Move" members?
Kate
I sure do remember, remember the Symbionese Liberation situation? They had that one on TV live for the entertainment of the nation. That gave it more than a slight smell of a public lynching.
I have more than one good friend who is of the apocalyptic frame of mind--and I have to admit I've moved an awful lot farther in their direction in the last year. (Dear God, has it only been a year?) But the biggest thing that keeps me from their martial law scenario is--do we really thing the Naational Guard is going to support the Bushevikii, after the way they're being treated?
pbg:
Probably not, so how about the National guard tanks rolling in to D.C. and causing a white house incident alá Russia?
They had that one on TV live for the entertainment of the nation. That gave it more than a slight smell of a public lynching.
Yes, EPT, I do remember. It seems there's quite a handful of incidents that have gone down over the years, which were televised in such a way that it gave me the willies -- like the "live" viewing of the hunt for dissidents in Fahrenheit 451.
Uh, where in the article does it say he is white? Anybody? thanks--
Where it doesn't say he was black.
...or Hispanic/Latino/Asian etc.
This is not just a left-right thing. Please bear in mind that some genuinely libertarian left-wingers like Alexander Cockburn and Sam Smith objected to Auntie Jen's behavior at Waco. They also pointed out the dangers when Clinton and Schumer colluded to use the post-OKC "antigovernment extremist" bogeyman to railroad through the dangerous "counter-terror" legislation of 1996.
And there are some on the libertarian right today, like Bob Barr, who don't like John Ashcroft any better than they did Janet Reno.
Anyone who is bothered by USA Patriot and Homeland Security, but dismissed concerns over Waco and Hatch-Schumer, has just as many consistency problems as the Freepers who FORMERLY feared their government.
Jackboots are evil, regardless of the party in power. And the libertarian, populist right has a lot in common with its counterparts on the left. Certainly, both have more in common with each other than either has in common with the neocon right and the "new democrat" left, who dominate our present "two-party" discourse.
What the right-wing gun rights people and the home schoolers need to realize is that they're on the same side as people people on the left who are into neighborhood government, community technology, and workers' control of production. Our common enemy is the people in suits and ties, both government and corporate, who manage our lives for us.
But there are already quite a few on the libertarian left and right who have realized this affinity: Jesse Walker pointed out over at Reason that the home childbirth movement is pretty much evenly divided between fundamentalists and back-to-the-land hippies. The same is true, from what I've seen, of organic farmers and home-schoolers.
from the bbc
At least 87 US soldiers have died in the past two weeks while aid agencies counted at least 470 Iraqi dead in the city of Falluja alone last week, with 243 women and 200 children among them.
Why did we kill 400 women and children?
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