I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Totally OT, but does anyone understand the Haloscan comment numbering system? Is it the number of posts in the last hour, or something like that?
We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
there seems to be a limit to the numbering.
John Berman captured a "M*A*S*H" moment...
And let's see, for what war was MASH an allegory?
does anyone understand the Haloscan comment numbering system?
There's an absolute upper bound to how many HS counts. I think it's 200, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the comments themselves don't disappear, but HS keeps sequential track of the last X posts, so as new threads start growing, old threads appear to "shrink".
Uh, between the red wine and the sugar high from the s'mores we just consumed, I'm not sure if that makes sense...
why do amputees hate America?
Why the fuck is Shrub a Dub on his ranch?!?!?! He spends more time there than in the frickin' ovel office!
This is mindnumbingly stupid! Argh!
It's apparent that Frank Rich reads blogs.
"Why are none of Cheney, Wolfowitz, Bremer, the president — why aren't they taking pictures with all these guys? Because I don't understand why these guys are so hidden and why there aren't pictures of them." --Cher
Because BushCo. believes that if Americans don't see these devastating pictures, they won't think about the price we're paying for our adventure in nation building in Iraq.
If we don't comfort the wounded and if we don't go to funerals to honor the dead's sacrifice, then this recently accomplished mission is a success.
Let the families take care of their casualties. It's a small price to pay for the glory of Our Leader.
Back to the subject at hand (sorta), Rich had some of the best commentary on the Clinton impeachment I ever saw. He was wasted as a theater critic. In a market where the bar is set by the MoDo's, Friedman's, Safire's, Kristol's, he really stands out. Too bad he only writes on Sundays.
Private Lynch saw gunfire and capture.
She endured more hardship in an hour than you or I will find in a lifetime.
Period. That's the story. We owe her everything. Thank you Pvt Lynch.
Out-effing-rageous.
I doubt it will happen, but it would be nice if the veterans groups started calling the Republicans on this. The disconnect between the chest-thumping speechs about the troops and the actual treatment of the troops is just too great, especially for the Army.
There's a story about Franklin Roosevelt, which captures something that we're missing.
A naive kid from the sticks, just turned 20, had gone through basic training during the war and had a couple days furlough before he was shipped overseas. He didn't know where he was going, and in the manner of the time, accepted as normal that he didn't know IF he'd come back, much less when.
He was from the countryside someplace, too far to get to and back on his short furlough, so he asked some local girl to keep company with him in a trip to the Nation's capitol.
Now -- remember, FDR had been President almost since they were born, and the war was simply something he had grown up into, the way kids now accept a driver's license -- as an entitlement.
So -- the story goes -- he had his girl out on the town for one of his furlough nights, and they were walking around DC, taking in the sights. They walked by the White House, gawking at the building the same way they had just gawked at the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument and the Capitol itself -- all of 'em bright and white and in color. They were strolling by the gates of the White House, and just like celebrity-struck Americans (only from newsreels in them days), they wondered: gee, what if we could see The President? Can you imagine?
Right on cue, the gates opened, and the motorcycle cops pulled out, and two guards with white gloves stepped in front of them, all routine, waving the big black car forward...
But, so the story goes, FDR -- ever the politician -- had the driver pause a moment, to see who was there. (Sorta like Joe DiMaggio, who played hard every day, because you never know who was in the stands who had never seen him play.)
And there was this kid, who had forgotten he was in uniform, staring right at The President.
So the kid stared, and the girl gawked.
And FDR grinned, but then his grin vanished, and he looked stern, his eyes far away... and he brought his hand up to his forehead for a salute.
The kid remembered himself, and returned it -- a little late -- but (as I heard the story), he never forgot it. Because he realized in that instant that this wasn't just a politician, like a mayor or a Congressman (campaigning like a rat in heat): this was the guy who sent literally millions of men to fight and die to save the world.
No guts, no glory.
Who was that kid, Americanist? Relative of a friend, or a politician?
Wow. Great story.
Has W ever been anything but AWOL when faced with the realities of war?
Sorry if this is post is so about me. I wish I had seen that CBS clip, because it was precisely those moments on MASH that I thought MASH was at its worst and most heavy handed. I would have liked to have seen Hawkeye, the original sexist sensitive new age guy be redeemed.
One day I would like to learn more about Haloscan. Was it really written by jr. high school students and hosted on their 56K modem as their sucky code and crappy service suggest? And just what is their business plan?
jesus h. 20 years old and lost both arms. And the criminal gang running this country treats them like an embarrassment, like the way folks used to hide children who were born with defects or autism.
Oh well. Down the memory hole with them all. After all the Chimp has God's work to do, like raising funds for his re-selection. I totally understand why he spent the weekend relaxing at his ranch.
Really, I do. All too well.
The world has gone to hell.
The question is, 'Will Kate Hudson do Private Benjamin II'?
Glossolalia-do-da-day.
And, frankly, a toast to Cher. She's god damned right to question these sons of bitches about why they haven't ever put their OWN balls on the line for their ridiculous grandiose schemes.
Lunar eclipse, moonlight sonata, girlfriend is cooking for a change (I do ALL the cooking if anything because most people don't seem to try very hard). French pear martinis with northwest-made pear brandy. Should be saving, but you only live once.
Yah, good for Cher. How many poor bastards are unable to have the comforts of soon-to-be layoff victim in a ridiculously boho apartment sipping a pear martini?
The soldiers should be drinking the martinis, and the assholes that sent them to that awful place ought to be made to pay for what they have done.
Jessica who? I heard two poor guys bought the farm just today in Iraq, probably taken out by more of the explosive munitions. Man, that stuff's got to be hell on Earth -
Frankly, the fact that Bush has rarely visited the wounded (twice? without coverage?), has not met the dead at Dover, has not attended a funeral, and waited 2 days before he commented on camera about the Chinook helicopter downing and loss of life makes him the most cowardly, insensitive, poor excuse for a president we have ever seen.
Those who support him should be ashamed of themselves. There is just nothing htis man has done that's admirable. Nothing.
Dear "President" Bush:
They're bringing it on, you miserable son-of-a-bitch. I hope they're reserving a special place for you in the 9th circle of Hell.
pie: those who support him are either rich, or idiots.
He quit drinking. That's admirable.
Yet so common and mundane.
His downsides heavily outweigh this.
The idiots should know better.
They had to move Rich to make room for Brooks. Progress, you know.
I'm really grateful to Cher and the Dixie Chicks, but where are all the other people who are supposed to be helping us get the word out?
Rich. Cogent. Brilliant.
Thank you.
Brooks is going back to NewsHour, so said Safire on Friday. Unfortunately, he's going to continue as a Times columnist.
It's been brought up on comments related to others of Atrios' posts but bears repeating - I too heard NPR's ATC piece on Friday afternoon, the interviews with PA folks about Bush and the war. It is really, really worth listening to.
http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rund...Date=7-Nov-
2003
scroll down to "Pennsylvania Voters Take Stock Of Bush"
Most of these folks were absolutely desperate to believe that Bush wouldn't lie to them. You could hear it very plainly in their voices. The last woman in the piece, it was like she was pleading, 'please Mr. Bush say it ain't so!'
Listening to this piece made me feel angry, helpless, incredibly frustrated. I was too wound up to yell at my radio.
The only good news I could possibly pull out of this is the desperation of these folks. Deep down inside, they know there is something terribly wrong with the direction our country. If things keep going this way, something will push them over the edge.
The bad news is, a lot of soldiers and civilians are going to die in Iraq until these folks finally overcome their denial.
Anyone remember who won Pennsylvania in 2000?
I do.
pie: the public in America is asinine, and it is very sad that the country has such a dominant economic position because as a result the standard herd of easily manipulated idiots found everywhere has the entire world twisted around with its every irrational foible..
Oh my, Amfortas is presiding over the grail ceremony now. Dum dedum DUM dum ... Dum dedum DUM dum
Has anyone noticed that in Jessica Lynch's book, medical records are cited to state that she was raped and sodomized... but the Iraqi doctors are angrily denying this, which would mean that these are US medical records.
But of course, Lynch was in captivity a week. The longest time for laboratory detection of vaginal rape is 4 days. Probably much less for anal rape.
Someone-- not Lynch, who says she remembers nothing about those first few hours-- is lying.
Anyone want to bet it's the Department of Defense?
Well, Riyadh has been bombed. Any guess who? Certainly no need to ask why.
Actually, Copernicus, I would like to think that those who continue to support Bush are decent people who are troubled by the fact that he shuns the dead and wounded soldiers, since he was responsible for putting them in harm's way.
Why can't he stand up and be a man.
I'm not sure if I can go along with this "American public is asinine, stupid" bit. Seems rather condescending if you ask me. Oh, just because someone voted for Bush automatically makes them a moron? This sort of arrogance is unattractive, and a sure path to defeat if the Democratic candidate has any ounce of it.
... angry, helpless, incredibly frustrated ...
Helpless is the one thing we are not.
Lots of work to be done in only 12 months.
"Let's be careful out there."
That FDR story just crystalizes the choice Americans made in 2000, or rather the Supreme Court made: to let a coward without a moral compass in his big fat chimp head shout that Americans are the bestest people ever and anybody who hates us must be deranged.
This is who we've got in charge, making comparisons to Pearl Harbor, when the man who led the country then had gusto and gallantry and told people to have hope and courage and help each other.
One more year, Chimpy! One more year!
A.
who's a little drunk, and pissed off
That's exactly my thinking, pie. I believe many conservatives are decent people. They're just hoodwinked, and in denial.
pie: Why can't he stand up and be a man
Because he's never had to.
.
All this talk of leaders avoiding reality and soldiers taking fire, reminds me that TACITUS has a fascinating confessional post this afternoon. He suffered depression as an Army officer, recovered enough to serve honorably, then left. He makes this point defending the military interpreter who faces cowardice charges and for full disclosure. But then he goes off message defending chickenhawks.
Adam, as I have been one of those who disparage my fellow countrymen and the apparent lack of brains I shall answer you. No, voting for Bush does not make one automaticaly a moron, it is the continued support of a party that actually works against one's own interests that makes one a moron. Like Andy S. and the Log Cabin Republicans who continue to support a party that would like to exterminate them. Like my sister, who thinks Las Vegas would be overrun with Islamic terrorists if it weren't for the Patriot Act but doesn't understand why she has a harder time justifying herself to a conservative judge than does her philandering ex-husband. Like some of my former co-workers who think there are such things as terrorist countries, whole goddamned countries made up of terrorists, these are the things that make people morons, and they vote for Bush because he talks tough and that's enough for them, Democrats make them feel stupid and they don't like that feeling, it insults them. We are so hosed. I hope for the best but expect to get rolled over and die poor and before my time.
I have to agree with Adam. Like it or not, you're not going to get anywhere by calling people stupid.
If a casualty falls in Iraq,
and no one films his coffin,
did he make a sound?
My favorite image from the early Clinton years was the one of President Bill in a photo op with Ranger Sergeant Scott Galentine, one of the casualties from the infamous "Blackhawk Down" battle in Mogadishu. President Clinton looks sincerely happy and honored to be next to this young hero, but Sergeant Galentine--as is evident in the photo--has a look of pure hatred for his president. It was no secret at the time that many of the Rangers and their families didn't even want this "draft dodger" to meet with the Ranger casualties and their families. In fact, many refused to meet Clinton.
My point: at least President Clinton would ackowledge the casualties, even if, as was evident in the Galentine photo, the "hero" looks like he wants to kick the President's ass.
Bush--in a creepy political move, probably orchestrated by Rove--won't even do what Clinton did, meet and have photo ops with casualties. It's a stupid gambit that will, as we will all see in the next six months, backfire as these poor, fucked up vets--like PFC Lynch--get out of the military and speak their minds. If I am some legless kid on a Walter Reed rehabilitation ward, I'd be wondering why my president (or vice president, or some goddamn politician) isn't there to pin on my Purple Heart so the folks back home can see the sacrifice I have made for THEM.
Just wait and see. These wounded vets will be our our conscience in all this.
strictly speaking, I think that "hoodwinked and in denial" really does equate with "stupid".
I am not interested much in circumlocution to prevent people with being confronted with an accurate assessment when it is due.
Don't heh, ever, ever, ever call me stupid. Okay?
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywo...2/FW-
stupid.wav
Damn, haloscan really sucks the big one. Bunch of fscking comment stalkers.
I can't criticize the prez for not attending soldier's funerals, since, as a psychopath, he hasn't the tiniest bit of regard for anyone's life but his own. Going to funerals would just be a transparent sham.
"There's only one person who is responsible for making that decision [to go to war], and that's me. And there's only one person who hugs the mothers and the widows, the wives and the kids on the death of their loved ones. Others hug, but having committed the troops, I've got an additional responsibility to hug, and that's me, and I know what it's like."
-George W. Bush, 12/13/02
Cervantes -
helpless in the face of such boneheaded denial. What the hell does it TAKE for these folks to realize what's really going on? What is wrong with them? How freakin' bad does it have to get before they finally begin to question their assumptions? What do you do with people who are immune to facts and evidence?
And how many people are there just like the ones interviewed on NPR, who are going to vote for Bush despite the overwhelming evidence that things are FUBAR?
I haven't given up, not even close. But god do I feel helpless in the face of such overwhelming denial.
Bush--in a creepy political move, probably orchestrated by Rove--won't even do what Clinton did, meet and have photo ops with casualties.
Oh no, you've got it ALL WRONG.
Bush is going to be seen with LOTS of veterans, self-selected and screened carefully, but with lots of them.
Bank on it.
but but but they had a picture of george meeting a wounded soldierin our paper. he was sort of looking at the boy while shaking his hand, as he had his hands.
besides, this is george's war movie and nobody dies in movies. right?
i would like to scream, to kick george for everu soldier he has killed, but as i am not about to do that, i stick a pin in my voodoo war monkey for every soldier george has killed. and if anybody wants to join me, e-mail me and i will send a pic so we can all voodoo george.
In all seriouslness, I've finally come to the conclusion that a bunch of high-functioning psychopaths have taken control of the US government.
Kurt Vonnegut made this point in a speech a few months ago, but at the time I read it I thought he was being whimsical in that depressing way of his. But it's true -- we've got a bunch of con artists who literally don't care about other people's well being running our country. They will say anything, do anything, no matter how inconsistent with what they've said and done before, as long as it sounds good and will get them out of the current jam and allow them to continue to steal the public's money. This is classic sociopathic behavior.
What's more, all our other sociopaths are supporting them. There's no conspiracy -- each person just doing what's in his or her own best interest (as a sociopath would perceive it). They know a good thing when they see it and want in on the action.
Most of the normal population of the US seems to be blinded to this turn of events by a combination of greed, anger, ignorance and fear.
daver9--
I only surfed to that Tacitus post because Calpundit linked it. I think I once visited his blog once before long ago, but came away with the conclusion that the guy was a creep and a right-wing tool.
After reading his teary-eyed confession--and then his completely false use of his "personal experience" to castigate vets like me who use the chickenhawk arugment (I'm sorry, Tacitus, but pro-war hawks who scream for us to go to war, and also question the patriotism of those opposed to that war, and who also never served themselves when they could, are probably CHICKENHAWKS in most cases)--was further proof of what a fucking creep he is.
I was going to respond to his bullshit, but I realized the dude is either a liar or a misguided creep who really believes the bullshit he writes. Either way, what's the point?
W, and/or his controllers, believe (with good reason) that if the average American doesn't see something on TV they can be persuaded that it never happened. I sincerely hope that W will go down to ignoble defeat, but I'm not convinced it will happen. Conservatives rail against the "nanny-state," but it is they who have instilled in Americans a wish to have an all-protective mother hog who will offer the milk of her abundant teats as a magical potion to ward off the threats of alien evildoers. Americans have been reduced to the status of dependent children, too frightened to trust the outside world. This is why California elected an ersatz hero as its governor, and why the nation will probably elect a make-believe gunslinger as its next president. When reality becomes too frightening to face, we must burrow beneath the covers and hope for some sort of supernatural intervention.
OK, yeah, hoodwinked and in denial is probably closer to the truth than stupid, but stupid is shorter and easier to say.
Hmmm. The president running away from the casualties inflicted on our country's troops. What does that sound like? Vietnam, anyone?
It's just sad.
We did not learn from the past.
I thought we had learned not to do this to young people:
We had fed the heart on fantasies.
The heart's grown brutal from the fare.
"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." --Adolf Hitler
I don't think it is stupidity, it's immorality. Their selfishness and lazyness makes them easily manipulated.
--
And when you lift up your hands
I will turn My eyes away from you
Though you pray at length
I will not listen
Your hands are stained with crime.
...
Your rulers are rogues
And cronies of thieves
Everyone avid for presents
And greedy for gifts
They do not judge the case of the orphan
And the widow's cause never reaches them.
----
from Isaiah
I'm not usually one to take Bush's side (or argue with Cher), but if he and Cheney were doing what Cher suggests and getting their pictures taken with the wounded, they would be accused to using them for political purposes.
Renato: If people appear "bone-headed," could it be because they don't have easy access to accurate information? If it seems to you that people are in denial, could it be because they genuinely don't know the things you feel they ought to know?
I think it's fair to say that one cannot love America without loving Americans. Love involves patience and understanding, both of which require empathy. Clinton won two elections, largely because enough people felt he genuinely empathized with them.
Of course, empathy can be faked. What with the Mighty Wurlitzer and millions spent on television ads, even corporate stooges like Newt Gingrich and G. W. Bush can be made to seem empathetic.
That's life. I don't think we need to paralyze ourselves trying to figure out why some people vote for the Republicans. It might be bone-headedness on their part or it might be an accurate appraisal of their self-interest; either way there's not much we can do about it. Not being Nino Scalia, we are indeed "helpless" when it comes to invalidating people's votes.
But that's not our only option. Even if we don't know how to reach Republican voters, we can still appeal to the millions who haven't yet seen a reason to vote at all. We can try to give them the information they're not getting elsewhere, the information many of them simply don't have the time to pursue. In short, we can try to change the electorate by convincing non-voters (and new voters) to vote.
Could we still fail? Of course. But are we "helpless"? I'm not.
.
Cerv: these people sounded like they watch TV and read papers alright, they sounded really terrified that their faith in Bush may be a big mistake.
The kind of fear and desperation you might have heard from someone who invested all their retirement savings in Enron, just as that scandal began to break. The kind of fear and desperation one might hear from a fundamentalist who just found out that Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a hooker.
I had a chat with my uncle on Long Island this evening. He's a moderate Republican and I am certain he voted for Bush in 2000. He can't stand him now. He called Rumsfeld a 'fucking Nazi'. Not just a Nazi, a fornicating one at that. This from a guy who is hardly a bleeding heart leftie.
The next thing he said creeped me out and fed my fears. I told him about the NPR piece and he said, 'You know, people like us who are from the city, we see through this shit because we're more cynical, we've seen it all. What scares me is those people in the middle states, like Iowa and Kansas. They don't know better, they don't get it."
Now, those weren't MY words and I would not have put it quite that way and I apologize in advance to any of you from those middle red states. I don't believe that all of you are stupid and gullible. But I think uncle had a good point in there.
You can understand why rich smug SOBs vote for Bush. They know perfectly well what they are doing. It's the gullible folk who have been trained not to question authority (at least, not flag-wrapped GOP authority) who frighten me. I'm sure Nazi Germany had an analogous population of folks who fell for all that swastika-waving German Aryan patriotic crap, and never thought to wonder whether these folks really believed in any of it or whether they had their best interests in mind, at least not until it was way too late.
There's really not much satisfaction in being able to say, 'we told you so'.
just because someone voted for Bush automatically makes them a moron? This sort of arrogance is unattractive, and a sure path to defeat if the Democratic candidate has any ounce of it.
I don't fault people who voted for Bush out of principle. I do fault people who still support him after our continuing three-year national nightmare. Anyone who truly believes things are better in this country (and the world) under Bush than under Clinton is seriously delusional.
But where I live, probably six out of ten people will vote for Bush next fall. And yeah, I think they're asinine for doing so.
I'm not usually one to take Bush's side (or argue with Cher), but if he and Cheney were doing what Cher suggests and getting their pictures taken with the wounded, they would be accused to using them for political purposes.
No. Not at all. It would go a long way toward convincing me their motives in Iraq may not be what I have always believed them to be (It's the OIL, stupid).
But they don't have the balls to face those brave men and women they're using as cannon fodder. They can't look them in the eye, because their war is a sham and they know it.
I have a proposal that I certainly hope has not slipped the minds of Dem strategists...
Let's have the Dem candidates visit, photo-op, and interview these injured soldiers!
Why can't Dean, Clark, Lieberman, all of them do this? Bush had his "Mission Accomplished" momment. It sure would be tough for the Mighty Wurlitzer to call the Dems out for a similar stunt. And our stunt would have the admirable result of turning the nation's attention to the human cost of war, something the media avoids in leaps and bounds.
The worst that could happen is no press coverage at all.
What do y'all think?
"What scares me is those people in the middle states, like Iowa and Kansas. They don't know better, they don't get it."
No disrespect, but I live in kansas, and we DO get it.
The tide is turning here, and though you may not believe it, lots of people here hate Bush too, and that animosity is growing.
I voted for Bush in 2000. This tarbaby policy in Iraq is the worst crap I've seen my country fling itself into. And I'm a history professor (and, I guess, by default, ever-liberaller).
I've assigned my students _Backfire_, by Loren Baritz, which includes a passage where he suggests that all Americans in the 1960s believed that everyone else on the planet was either a "frustrated or potential American," and if we could just teach them to be like us they'd love us.
See some parallels?
Argh.
The best line in Rich's piece was at the end -
Certainly the new plot they tell is simple enough: what began as a war at a time of our choosing has become a war at the time of the enemy's choosing.
Let's have the Dem candidates visit, photo-op, and interview these injured soldiers!
Of course, the media would portray any such thing as a brazen politicization of injured veterans.
a "M*A*S*H" moment when a military medic attending the American wounded looked directly at the camera and said, " `All major combat operations have ceased' " — after which he winked and, with a roll of his eyes, added a sarcastic, "Right!"
*sigh* Wow. I want to have this man's baby.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't see one single solitary moronic brownshirt fuck posting here.
Wonder why that is? What about this subject could possibly keep them all silent?? Any ideas???
It wouldn't hurt for Bush to visit Walter Reed periodically. As long as it was never shown to be a ritual, then accusations of using the wounded as a political tool would be baseless.
The upside would be to show that he does care about their well-being.
However, in neo-cons' minds, that's the downside. There's no room for compassion, for that'll get in the way of their mission.
Perhaps Clark could get away with visiting the casualties. Were that to go well, the other candidates could follow suit, possibly including the president - and would that be such a bad thing?
Seraphiel,
You say visiting Reed would be a "brazen politicization" of the injured vets, but hasn't Bush been brazen on just about every level in this war?
Of course GOP loyal pundits will scream bloody murder, but do you think most Americans would as well?
For every utterance of "damn those slimy politicians taking advantage of the wounded by visiting them!"
there would have to be at least as few dozen comments like "God, look at the suffering coming out of Iraq...is it really worth it?"
I guess I'll concede that I'm advocating politicization of the wounded here, but not for an unworthy cause.
If Bush were taking real responsibility for the human costs I'd be singing a different tune.
"What scares me is those people in the middle states, like Iowa and Kansas. They don't know better, they don't get it."
It's because they are idiots, but not thru any direct fault of their own. You see, the iodine was leached out of the soil when the last ice age retreated. Without iodine in your diet, from the soil or from fish, your mental development suffers. Large parts of China's interior have this same problem. Coastal peoples, with easier access to fish, will thus always be more intelligent.
"If Bush were taking real responsibility for the human costs I'd be singing a different tune."
kafkaesq
In Bush's mind, that would be defeat.
He will not accept responsibility for the horror and death that he has brought upon so many.
He dodged Nam, and he will dodge this too.
"It's because they are idiots, but not thru any direct fault of their own. You see, the iodine was leached out of the soil when the last ice age retreated. Without iodine in your diet, from the soil or from fish, your mental development suffers. Large parts of China's interior have this same problem. Coastal peoples, with easier access to fish, will thus always be more intelligent."
Mike
Please Mike,
don't be such an idiot.
Chunkstyle, you're named after a type of prepared tuna. Are you the same chunkstyle that appears on BoaterTalk? If so then this suggests you're not a landlubber...
Why don't we start up a sort of reverse countdown, like they did every night of the Iran hostage crisis, or as was done during the years Reagan refused to use the word "AIDS," enumerating the number of days since Bush attended a funeral of one of our soldiers killed in the war?
In envision prefacing newscasts, emails, or blog entries with something like, "It's Nov. 10, the 205th day in which President Bush has refused to attend the funeral of a soldier he sent to die in Iraq. And now, the news..."
Let's shame the bastard. Then, when he finally does cave and make a photo-op of some funeral, it will be exposed as the nakedly political act it is.
"Are you the same chunkstyle that appears on BoaterTalk? If so then this suggests you're not a landlubber..."
No, I'm a different chunkstyle, and as a matter of fact, my handle has nothing to do with "prepared tuna."
A clue for you....
Do you have a dog?
"When reality becomes too frightening to face, we must burrow beneath the covers and hope for some sort of supernatural intervention.
TownDrunk"
Perhaps the word you are looking for is religion or god.
And how the heck do you argue with a guy who thinks god is talking to him?
And many people will connect their desire for salvation, given the images and acts of the last two years that must surely live in their minds, with a man who can obviously give the impression of being religious, even chosen by god.
could it be because they don't have easy access to accurate information?
well. lets face it, the ONLY channel that a democratic congressperson can get their message communicated on is c-span.
I lived in Morocco for 2 years and my appartment was just by a Coranic School. Which was, I think, the only childcare offered there and then. From age 2, the kids would play, have snacks, and would recite by heart/read Koran verses. Of course, all politically correct people at the time would cringe at such a doctrinal rapture of their young mind. Several years later, my own kids were pledging allegiance to a flag in Texas, and under God with that... I couldn't help having a deja vu feeling.
if you hammer in people's heads fake patriotism and a weird superstitious feeling that America has been somehow elected by God, take out evolution books from school library, cut school funding, manipulate the media, and, and.... (the list is too long.), should you be surprised that people BECOME a little stupid?
Most midwesterners aren't stupid, they're ignorant and, I think, not through any fault of our own. A case in point....Friday night on NWI,the CBC did a report on how the Christian fundies are supporting the Israeli Zionists and backing Sharon because they believe the second coming will be in Israel. It was well done and lasted at least 6 or seven minutes, maybe 10. The 3 big networks have never touched this story.....not on the nightly news, anyway. It's not complicated. They just need show how amageddon is being manipulated by a bunch of "bring-on-the-rapture" nuts.
Although I do think the tide is turning in the "major" media....they are criminal in their neglect to inform. What is most appalling is their total complacency in the lead-up to the war. Some of those people should be in orange jumpsuits right along with Chimpy and Cheney.
Oh, and I want to add that I believe that many in the SCLM actually did this for ratings and the "big story." Blitzer and some of those bozos. It gives thema reason for existence.
pie: Why can't he stand up and be a man
cervantes: Because he's never had to.
One of the great discontents of civilization is our jobs are too small for our competences. In my mundane life I've met maybe one or two people (not me!) who, if they had happened to inherit FDR's responsibilities, might have handled them as gracefully as FDR did; maybe a handful who could have been Harry Trumans, but they never got anywhere near the White House. Conversely, today, now, however shadily he got there, GWB is the President of the United States during a war. He "has to" right now. Clearly, the reason G. W. Bush hasn't "acted like a man" is because he just doesn't have it in him.
On 18 March 2003 I sent a message to people who attended my high school (now defunct) who are on a listserve. I was depressed about the impending war and wanted to shake the listserve’s many hawks with a dose of reality. Didn’t work, of course. Unfortunately, as said in this comment section earlier, you can’t take any comfort in being right. Here’s the relevant portion of e-mail:
“War is deadly serious. It has a cost. It is usually in blood and treasure, but mostly in blood. No soldier has a death wish, but he has been trained in the art of violence and death is a part of that. He will fight all the harder if he believes the cause is good. Though it will be difficult, his mother and his wife can bear his death knowing the sacrifice was for a noble purpose and had a meaning to the nation. But if the cause in not just, then loss of life will be met with bitterness.
Let's be ready to say in our heart of hearts that we had no other choice than to go to war to defend our country and our liberty. Once we have decided that, then we can be at peace with ourselves. Then we can accept the deaths of our sons' with equanimity and not bitterness. Then we may state to the world that we believe we were truly right to do this. But if we have misgivings, then perhaps there is another way.
As you can see, I have profound doubts about our present course of action, and I am disturbed about the lack of foresight the American people have shown on this issue.
I hope this is a short war for our troops and my friends in uniform. Iraq is not worth one American life. Not one. But the enemy will fight for his homeland. We should not be surprised if Iraq uses every weapon in its arsenal. And the occupation will probably result in more American deaths than the war. How many months of American deaths from snipers or sabotage will the American public tolerate?
Lack of foresight. It's too depressing to dwell on.”
On 18 March 2003 I sent a message to people who attended my high school (now defunct) who are on a listserve. I was depressed about the impending war and wanted to shake the listserve’s many hawks with a dose of reality. Didn’t work, of course. Unfortunately, as said in this comment section earlier, you can’t take any comfort in being right. Here’s the relevant portion of e-mail:
“War is deadly serious. It has a cost. It is usually in blood and treasure, but mostly in blood. No soldier has a death wish, but he has been trained in the art of violence and death is a part of that. He will fight all the harder if he believes the cause is good. Though it will be difficult, his mother and his wife can bear his death knowing the sacrifice was for a noble purpose and had a meaning to the nation. But if the cause in not just, then loss of life will be met with bitterness.
Let's be ready to say in our heart of hearts that we had no other choice than to go to war to defend our country and our liberty. Once we have decided that, then we can be at peace with ourselves. Then we can accept the deaths of our sons' with equanimity and not bitterness. Then we may state to the world that we believe we were truly right to do this. But if we have misgivings, then perhaps there is another way.
As you can see, I have profound doubts about our present course of action, and I am disturbed about the lack of foresight the American people have shown on this issue.
I hope this is a short war for our troops and my friends in uniform. Iraq is not worth one American life. Not one. But the enemy will fight for his homeland. We should not be surprised if Iraq uses every weapon in its arsenal. And the occupation will probably result in more American deaths than the war. How many months of American deaths from snipers or sabotage will the American public tolerate?
Lack of foresight. It's too depressing to dwell on.”
Last night while surfing tv, I happened to stop long enough to watch the top two stories on my local cable tv newstation which I rarely do for reasons most of you are all too familiar with.
The first one was about 2 of the soldiers who had died from the region that happened to be on the Chinook that was shot down, with pictures and facts about their ages, rank, families. In the same story they also showed the footage of the funeral of another soldier from the area who had been laid to rest...even the flagged draped coffin.
The second story was about another soldier from the region who had been seriously injured in Baghdad and was recovering stateside. He is a quadruplegic and in a wheelchair and apparently he was not supposed to survive. However, they had a clip of him speaking and this part was the most amazing at least to me, he was still very supportive of the war.
The next story had to do with the misleading story about 130,000 jobs that were created last month...click
I guess the interesting thing to me, is that despite the adminstration's intimidation and self-imposed media filter...I was surprised that at least sometimes the top stories at least at the local level have to do with the deaths and wounded from this war.
I heart Frank Rich. One of the best op-ed writers the NY Times has. And he made lots & lots of enemies as a theater critic, so I'm glad that at least they have him writing op-ed for the arts section.
It's all the fault of the damn Pledge of Allegiance. It's not enough to remove "under God." Throw the whole damn thing out. It's a patriotic prayer--the first refuge of scoundrels.
I mentioned that ATC piece under another topic. If they had done the same story anywhere in the country you'd have heard some of the same "bone-headedness." It's faith-based politics, and Jeebofascism is not regional.
BTW, the piece on Wilfred Owen in today's NYT is worth reading--as, of course, are his poems. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/0.../09SUN3.html?
th
Sorry to bother you.
-billy (southerner)
Seraphiel,
You say visiting Reed would be a "brazen politicization" of the injured vets, but hasn't Bush been brazen on just about every level in this war?
Read what I wrote a bit more carefully. I think visiting the vets would be a good idea: the vets would tell their families and their colleagues that the Democratic nominee is interested enough to come visit.
But the media will paint it as just more Bush-hating.
As Boss Tweed put it, "Stop them damn pictures!"
Let's have the Dem candidates visit, photo-op, and interview these injured soldiers!
Why can't Dean, Clark, Lieberman, all of them do this? Bush had his "Mission Accomplished" momment. It sure would be tough for the Mighty Wurlitzer to call the Dems out for a similar stunt. And our stunt would have the admirable result of turning the nation's attention to the human cost of war, something the media avoids in leaps and bounds.
The worst that could happen is no press coverage at all.
What do y'all think?
-As long as they can be prepared for the backlash that they will get from the GOP and the media, and fight back hard (are you saying that my visiting, talking to and recognizing the heroism of these soldiers is wrong? Why do YOU hate these soldiers?), I have no problem with it.
He quit drinking. That's admirable.
And he quit eating candy for a few days after the invasion started. That's positively heroic -- at least for Dubya, who showed his true colors when he ran like a rabbit and scurried down into that bunker in Nebraska on 9/11.
"My favorite image from the early Clinton years was the one of President Bill in a photo op with Ranger Sergeant Scott Galentine, one of the casualties from the infamous "Blackhawk Down" battle in Mogadishu. President Clinton looks sincerely happy and honored to be next to this young hero, but Sergeant Galentine--as is evident in the photo--has a look of pure hatred for his president. It was no secret at the time that many of the Rangers and their families didn't even want this "draft dodger" to meet with the Ranger casualties and their families. In fact, many refused to meet Clinton."
If this was the photo that appeared in "Black Hawk Down", Bowden refers to it as showing both men bemused by the unexpected oddity of the soldier and the president meeting like this. Bowden interviewed Sergeant Galentine, and might have known if his reaction was other than stated. He also cites little evidence of Clinton hatred by the men themselves; the parents of those lost were bitter but it's hard to blame them. It's also hard to remember that 16 dead soldiers could loom so large on the national consciousness, at a time when the death of 20 times that number is met with fatalistic apathy
Steve Paradis: It's also hard to remember that [in Somalia] 16 dead soldiers could loom so large on the national consciousness, at a time when the death of 20 times that number [in Iraq] is met with fatalistic apathy
Some argue that appetite for hydrocarbons has something to do with tolerance for deaths of (other people's) kids who "volunteered."
Maybe it does ... I don't know.
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One of my favorite Marine stories has to do with former Commandant P.X. Kelley, who visited a guy who was badly wounded in the Beirut barracks bombing. (Actually, he visited ALL of 'em.) This guy's eyes were bandaged because he had so much concrete dust in 'em, plus tubes and whatnot, so he couldn't talk and probably wasn't real sure it was General Kelley next to his bed. Kelley said the guy sort of moved his hands over Kelley's uniform, reached up and felt his insignia, counting the stars with his fingers, then motioned for a pen and paper. They gave him some big chart thing on a clipboard with a marker, and he wrote in this nearly illegible scrawl: "Semper Fi."
Until the Beirut bombing, it was quite likely that Kelley would have been the first Marine commandant to chair the Joint Chiefs. But in the goofy way emotions work, I expect he is more proud of that scrawled paper than sorry that he didn't get that honor.
I tell the story, to re-tell another one: the Beirut bombing happened because, a few weeks before, the USS New Jersey shelled the Bekaa hills. Why did it fire into Lebanon? Because Druze in the Bekaa were firing at the US Ambassador's residence. Why was that unusual? It wasn't, in fact shelling like that was pretty common -- except that PARTICULAR time, Reagan's special envoy to the Middle East was there.
And who was that guy? Donald Rumsfeld.
The story goes that Rumseld demanded of the Ambassador just why HE -- the President's personal representative -- had to hide in a bunker in the basement. The ambassador replied -- gee, Don, the country's fucked up: that IS why YOU'RE here, remember?
And Rumsfeld asked for a secure line, got Reagan on the phone, and 20 minutes later, the New Jersey opened up.
Eerie.
I wish the nutless cretins who run the SCLM would, when reporting the casualties would say every time "We would show film of the body bags and caskets returning to the USA but the Bush government will not permit you to see those images. They also will not permit you to see the thousands of maimed and wounded soldiers." You can get the message across without a picture, if you have to.
Clark has been visiting the families of those falling in Iraq.
Here's part of yesterday's entry on his blog:
"And I keep thinking about Harriet Johnson, mother of Army soldier Darius Jennings who was killed on the CH47 shot down last week. I visited with her on Thursday...I've seen many grieving families...often from accidents that should have been prevented. But these casualties in Iraq are coming from a badly misguided and misconceived policy, and a war we didn't have to fight...it is so sad, and it was so preventable...and with each grieving family we should harden our determination that we'll get out of this mess, the right way...and that's the success strategy I presented on Thursday."
I don't think he photographs them though, and I'm not sure if he's been to any funerals.
Jessica Lych, Wag the Dog meets Iraq. A "hero" who disobeys orders, gets lost, has a wreck, is attempted to be repatriated, THEN got shot at, by Americans. Then gets "rescued by an Iraqi Lawyer who had to walk all night alone in the desert twice to effect her rescue.
Not quite the gun wielding, shot twice and stabbed then raped hero she is promoted to be.
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