I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
The same news just appeared on Yahoo. I'm reminded of those delightful pictures of the Führer with the Eiffel Tower in the background. The folks back home in Berlin were so impressed.
Yet more proof that Bush is exactly like Hitler and America is exactly like Nazi Germany. Heil Bush!!
Sen. Clinton is spending Thanksgiving with troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I wonder if he brought his "Mission Accomplished" banner.
"The president's plane — its lights darkened and windows closed to minimzie chances of making it a target — landed under a crescent moon at Bagdad International Airport."
Thank the Maker they remembered to close the plane's windows while flying!
To paraphrase what Pinter said when the Smirk landed in England, I hope he washed down his turkey with a glass of blood.
Stealing Hillary's thunder?
Maybe he'll really lift spirits and take some of those troops back home with him.
I suppose that this means the heartfelt phone calls to "the troops" Bunnypants was planning on making today are cancelled?
That damn Hitlery Clintoon.
* wanted to have the troops over for a bite of dinner, but after the minorities joined up, there just was no chance for him, right?
Trip was paid for by Bush-Cheney'04, so stop complaining.
I will cut the smirker no slack, but I can't criticize this. It's a shameless exploitation of the troops and an insult to people who REALLY serve, but hey, the chimp coulda stayed home eating pretzels in Crawford.
yup, the pr boys couldn't have hillary, my senator, upstage whistle ass. i wonder which wingnut reporters were permitted on the plane, if any. david whatever on faux is practically sliding off his chair breaking the news. back to c-span i go.
the public griping has paid off. we need to kick it up much higher.
they sure do like to spend cash like it grows on trees. besides boosting the morale of soldiers who have no choice in the matter, how much did this stunt just cost the tax payers?
He did the right thing in this case. It would really be the right thing if he did it without recording it for the media to use as a free campaign commercial.
Photo Op
The Great Liberator sneaks into the country he liberated, in the dead of night, no one knows he's there before he is evacuated for his safety.
Nice.
Derek G is completely correct.
This might be the first reasonable thing they've done in months. Not only going, but making a ruse of going to Crawford to have the element of suprise working.
Now, apply them thinkin' skills every day, to much bigger problems. And not so much of the evil stuff, please.
"...flew to Washington to pick up aides and a handful of reporters sworn to secrecy."
Is this a typo? Shouldn't it read "...a handful of media whores..."?
I'm with derek. Bush deserves credit for this one; it's a fine gesture. Novel.
Here comes another month of "George W. Bush, Commander in Chief and Hero".
The problem I see is, how are they going to take off without rockets being fired?
You can't criticize this unless they put up a "Mission Accomplished" type of background.
If I were a grunt in Bagdhad, I would appreciate the attention.
Did this really happen? I'm unconvinced. "Security concerns" keep Bush from addressing the English Parliament, but he lands in freakin' Baghdad for a surprise visit?
Good for him! Glad he has the troops on his mind this Thanksgiving.
"O now, who will behold
The royal captain of this ruin'd band
Walking from watch to watch, from tent to tent,
Let him cry 'Praise and glory on his head!'
For forth he goes and visits all his host,
Bids them good morrow with a modest smile
And calls them brothers, friends and countrymen.
...
A largess universal like the sun
His liberal eye doth give to every one,
Thawing cold fear, that mean and gentle all
Behold, as my unworthiness define,
A little touch of Dubya in the night."
--Henry V, Act IV (with apologies)
Does this mean our Prince Hal has matured, and put aside his reliance on Sir Karlstaff?
I bet he didn't inform the Iraqi Interim Governing Council.
Maybe he's paying a preemptive visit to our soldiers' funerals.
Doesn't it look unseemly to come and go in the dead of night, for such a short time?
It also gives the wrong message to the Iraqis. It underscores that the terrorists are winning.
Our president is too afraid to visit in daylight, he doesn't trust the security. So why should the average Iraqi feel comfortable?
It might make good headlines for a nanosecond, but it plays right in to the hands of our international critics.
The editorials around the world are not going to be kind.
Empty act of bravado. Little punk, couldn't wait to take a piss on Iraqi soil.
Horse. Shit.
"Did this really happen? I'm unconvinced. "Security concerns" keep Bush from addressing the English Parliament, but he lands in freakin' Baghdad for a surprise visit?"
Neil, It's all over CNN. I feel just as cynical as you, but I think it was more likely that Rove and Cheny, et. al. thought;
a: If Hillary is going, he's got to go.
b: All this negative publicity of hime snubbing the troops will be quelled by one quick trip in time of danger.
c: He really is brave, this will makes up for the flight suit, testosterone fiasco.
d: As far as the Oil-archy is concerned, the air head is expendable. Hey they get his plane, Cheny is king, then we can bomb the whole fu*kin' world!
d: I'm sure it really did boast morale and for that it was a good thing. Even deeds done for the wrong reasons can have good consequences.
and a Happy Thanksgiving to all.
I'm glad he's going, but the extent of the security around this sort of belies the whole "dead-enders", "concentrate on the good stuff" crap.
"Doesn't it look unseemly to come and go in the dead of night, for such a short time?"
oops, anonymous was me, Jennie
Does this mean our Prince Hal has matured, and put aside his reliance on Sir Karlstaff?
Grumpy | 11.27.03 - 12:54 pm | #
No.
I see it's mostly a bunch of fucking scum still posting away here, waiting with hope for more American deaths. What a sad, pathetic group.
To use the analogy so popular with the chickenbloggers, Harry Truman did not need to secretly fly into Berlin in 1946 to visit the troops. That it took place in the cover of darkness, without any word going out to the public ahead of time, is an indication of what a quagmire we're in.
No comment.
@derek g
You mean, pull a 'Clinton?
Unbelievable - you liberate a country, but don't visit long enough to get showered with flowers?
I'm sure the British wish he'd only made a touch 'n' go visit there.
Is it me or does Hillary Clinton never seem to spend the holidays with her husband? I am really starting to feel bad for Bill. All alone on Thanksgiving and no one to love him. An ex-President deserves better.
Too bad the troops can't stealthily enter and exit without detection.
BRING EM ON!
It's about time! This is the least he should be doing. He needs to go back at Christmas and take Cheney with him. They chose this war, the least they can do is experience the aftermath first hand.
I love it! "Operation Bubble in Bagdhad"!
PhotoOp Accomplished!
If he really had balls, they would have announced his visit ahead of time and he would have stayed overnight. This quick night visit only emphasizes how bad the security must be in Iraq.
OT, but Michael Moore has been on C-Span for the past hour, being interviewed by Brian Lamb. God, what a breath of fresh air. Something to be thankful for on this special American holiday!
It sounds like to me that a lot of people in this forum don't know that Iraq is in a different time zone.
Not impressed. I don't think most people will see it with any sort of common sense. It will shoved into people's brains that this was a heroic, royla act. My common sense tells me he acted like a friggin' coward...history does repeat itself.
"I see it's mostly a bunch of fucking scum still posting away here, waiting with hope for more American deaths. What a sad, pathetic group.
George G"
What the hell are you talking about? No one has said any such thing, asshole.
I don't know that spending 2 and a half hours at the airport with "troops" is particularly heroic.
Oh wait. I've spent 2 and a half hours on Thanksgiving in an airport with "troops" trying to get home. No one reelected me though.
Only the cheerful, happy, Christian troops I'm sure.
Pity Al Jazeera isn't allowed to broadcast any longer. No one in Iraq will even know he was there. Perhaps that was the plan all along...
If Iraq is going to be our 51st state, I guess he has to make a campaign stop.
What was he wearing? Something hunky, I'm sure.
These people are beyond belief. I take it he's gone now? Where?
It would have been less egotistical if he had taken a Democrat or two with him. One of those presidential candidates who voted for the war. John Kerry, maybe -- or Leiberman.
Photo-op.
Is it me or does Hillary Clinton never seem to spend the holidays with her husband? I am really starting to feel bad for Bill. All alone on Thanksgiving and no one to love him. An ex-President deserves better.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 1:08 pm
There is always some hooker. Or fat jewish chick in Bill's life.
Being the first Black president he will fuck qanything with a hole.
"Bush was to spend only two hours on the ground, limiting his visit to a dinner at the airport with U.S. forces."
--
What is so damn pResidential? 2 hours...under cover of darkness? At the airport? In secrecy?
Please... this is complete utter BS! Complete crap. He has no shame.
And yes, Bush will be back in Crawford - being fawned over for his heroic trip to Baghdad.
Retch. Gag. Ugh. The turkey just spilled on the floor......
And just how many $$$$$ did this self-serving hypocritical stunt cost us taxpayers?
Good one Grumpy!
When I attended boarding school, they where working their way through Shakespeare's plays. I was there for the Henry IV->V period and some of that stuff is still etched in my brain!
I'll give Georgie boy a qualified atta boy for this one, but I'm suspect of
a)where/who this idea came from
b)is it just another photo op for 2004?
c) why do I still have the feeling that they are "playing" the Iraq war like a well tuned fiddle...
What Jennie said. Baghdad must be some really scary place right now.
Hey, I am NOT anonymous! what up?
Tim Freeman
===========
"It sounds like to me that a lot of people in this forum don't know that Iraq is in a different time zone.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 1:10 pm | #"
Do tell! You know what I heard? It's already tomorrow in Australia!
i am sorry -- this seems irresponsible and politically motivated. i am not impressed.
if somebody had bulls-eyed Air Force one, the president of the unioted states would be dead -- for the sake of cheering up the troops and getting a holiday snaps.
and what about the pilots of airforce one, the secret service men, the swromn-to-secrecy aides...all put into harm's way for a photo-op.
Dumb-ass stunt. If he wants to improve troop morale, he can bring them home.
According to CNN shrub met with Chalabi, nothing about troops on CNN.
Think the few journalists will be allowed to interview the troops before, during, or after this visit?
"I'll give Georgie boy a qualified atta boy for this one, but I'm suspect of
a)where/who this idea came from
b)is it just another photo op for 2004?
c) why do I still have the feeling that they are "playing" the Iraq war like a well tuned fiddle...
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 1:19 pm | #"
I won't give him shit for this. He's like a child playing tag. This stupid touch-n-go has nothing to do with supporting the troops. It's a campaign photo-opportunity. He is as dickless as Bad Anonymous.
sorry for the typos -- i am too pissed off to type.
"According to CNN shrub met with Chalabi, nothing about troops on CNN.
nechiav | 11.27.03 - 1:24 pm | #"
Well, it is important to keep Ahmed's spirit up. He has been catching so much flack recently, I am sure Bush just wanted to reassure him.
Visit or not, this kind of shit is what no one seems to notice:
We did not charge hundreds of miles through the heart of Iraq, pay a bitter cost of casualties, defeat a ruthless dictator and liberate 25 million people only to retreat before a band of thugs and assassins," the U.S. president said to a standing ovation.
What we did it for, and which I suspect goes over the heads of the troops and most of the American public, is apparently for the entirely predictable outcome of having the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, Object of Emulation of the Iraqi Shi'a clerical hierarchy, draw up the timetable for the transition to Iraqi independence, and the broad outlines of the new Iraqi constitution, which must defer to Islamic jurisprudence. Visiting Iraq is an effort to shift attention from Bush and Bremer's increasing irrelevance to the outcome of the invasion. Funny, but while Dubya was in Baghdad, it's clear he was only the second most powerful man in Iraq.
I once landed at Chicago O'Hare in late November in a storm. Most flights were grounded and it took about two hours before I could find a flight out. While waiting I had a hot dog and a piece of pizza.
Unlike the press reporting that this is the first trip to Iraq by a US President, I don't really consider myself as having visited Chicago.
Look, there's lot to be criical about here, most of all, that the trip is all about Bush, and that's how's its being reported on MSNBC and on Fox. Once again, the military is being used as a background for a drama about the President, about his personal courage, his committment to the troops and "staying the course" in Iraq.
And one of the things this trip is also about is drawing fire from Democrats and Bush critics in general.
Let's not oblige the President and his men. This is one time it makes sense to do what the Republicans as presently constituted, twisted sharply to the right, seem prenaturally incapable of doing, and never did for the full eight years of Clinton's presidency, to honor the office of the Presidency, which does not belong to Bush, which belongs to us.
I hope the Democrats have the fortitude not to point out that such a "stunt" is hardly an advertisement for our policies, and will hardly be seen by the Iraqis as such, or as meant in any way for t
"I'm sure it was just a nice, spontaneous gesture to show the American people how much he cares about the troops. What a guy. "
If you believe the above statement you may be suffering from clinical naiveté, a condition that affects over 40 million Americans each year.
What Leah said. But Leah, complete your point.
If he was like Prince Hal he should disguise himself as a plain old reservist and serve in Iraq with the troops for a month or two incognito.
JIM: "Think the few journalists will be allowed to interview the troops...?"
What might the troops say? If I may continue quoting...
"He may show what outward courage he will; but I believe, as cold a night as 'tis, he could wish himself in Thames up to the neck; and so I would he were, and I by him, at all adventures, so we were quit here."
Hmm. He just came from Thames. How ironic.
Atrios:
You and your hero Clinton [the one who used WhiteHouse to win election - strong woman, eh?] - Busted by Bush.
I love it. I am not a fan of Bush. But, anything that puts a human-paraisite (aka Clintons and Kennedys) is a great thing.
Ali Karim Bey
By the way, and slightly off topic, blackbox.com is trying to find lawyers to analyze the chances of an injunction against black box balloting, starting with the primaries. Any Rule 65 mavens out there?
PR
The truth is, though, that the media and the American electorate will probably swallow this photo-op whole. Neither seems to be able to look at this adventure with the slightest hint of perspective over time for the United States, let alone from the view of the Iraqis themselves.
Damn him. Doing the right thing and doing it well? See, it's possible! I agree with poster above who suggested applying these skills to some other pressing problems.
zepper, homer the troll, etc. all losers-liberals-hypocrites:
Bush creamed your role model. So, you are whiners. How about dissecting your role model (THE CLINTONS)? Then I may even take you seriously.
When I heard that CLINTON (parasite who used WH to win) was going, I knew that this was a campaign. I wondered how democrats would respond to one of their own (parasite). They did nothing. Nothing. Except NPR reporting this every 15-20 mins. like parrots. Now, Bush busted you all. I like it. I like when frauds/hypocrites/parasites get busted.
Ali Karim Bey
The free campaign commercials have started. Check out CNN
What was I thinking that he might actually be doing this for the troops and not for wall to wall media coverage on a traditionally slow news day with lots of people watching TV.
I can't believe I gave W the benefit of the doubt. I feel as dumb as Gephardt in the Rose Garden.
They love a captive audience! One more move from Karl Rove’s playbook. Too bad the average voter doesn’t see it for what it is.
Just saw NBC's coverage of Bush's visit and the Army soldiers seemed to be very happy about his arrival. There were not told that Bush was going to appear for Thanksgiving dinner. Their General was about to read a message from President Bush and then asked if there was anyone more senior than him to read the note, at that point Bush walked in and the soldiers burst out in cheers.
Now back to the doggies...
I don't think this visit is going to change anybody's perception of Bush.
People who dislike him will say that he snuck into Iraq in the dead of night for a cheap photo op.
People who like him will say that he risked his personal safety to cheer up the troops.
I'm sure it made a good impression on the troops in Baghdad but I don't know if it will knock anybody off the fence who hasn't made up his/her mind about Bush.
Fox now portraying it as San Juan Hill.
Sounds like just another sock in the codpiece.
"It sounds like to me that a lot of people in this forum don't know that Iraq is in a different time zone.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 1:10 pm | #"
Do tell! You know what I heard? It's already tomorrow in Australia!
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 1:23 pm | #"
That's unpossible!
LuciaC:
Hey, fraud, why not apply this same logic - the same - to Clinton? How come you liberal-hypocrites (analogus to conservative-rascists as you all write here) cover the dirt?
Be fair. Be open. Be ruthless. But, to all. To All. HIGH NOON ALWAYS.
Ali Karim Bey
As I was saying...
I hope the Demorats have the fortitutde not to point out that such a "stunt" is hardly an advertisement for our policies, and will hardly be seen by Iraqis as such. I hope they won't point out an American President sneaking into a country we've recently liberated and currently occupy for the most idealistic of reasons, we're told, protected by the kind of security unavailable to any of our troops on the ground will hardly be seen as a vindication of our policies, not by anyone.
I'm not being ironic. This is not the slamdunk Rove & co are assuming it is. Lots of Americans at the grassroots are going to see through this gesture. The more so the more the the tv news keeps emphasizing Bush's boldness and courage, which is something that our troops there have to reach deep into themselves to find, every minute of every day of their tour of duty.
It's grumbling at the grassroots that's going to make the difference. Letters to editors, polite ones, emails
I see it's mostly a bunch of fucking scum still posting away here, waiting with hope for more American deaths. What a sad, pathetic group.
Fuck you, George G.
If you're so gung ho, sign up, or re the f up.
Nobody here wants more Americans to die, so you can fuck off, pig.
I'm thankful you're idiotic enough to reveal your contempt for dissent. It makes my job that much easier.
ON TOPIC:
This a weak-looking photo op. Sneaking in to the city that was supposed to welcome us as "liberators" under cover of darkness 7 months after you "liberated" the place does nothing to make you look strong. It makes you look like a scared, little man, desperate to solidify support in his base.
I would LOVE to see what the GOP internal polls are saying, that they would do this. There must be serious disarray in the GOP rank and file for them to risk so much for so little.
Especially if he didn't meet with the troops, but instead met with Chalabi.
THAT is interestin
Is lauras cooking that bad?
Wait until Matthews hears of this -- he'll have a fuckin orgamism.
Next, Bush eats Chistmas dinner with the latest policy victims of his junta, seniors soon to be shafted by the Medicare bill.
Two and one-half hours. In the dead of night?
cont'd...
emails to columnists, to congress, to show, politely, that lots of Americans are becoming impatient with this PR approach to the Presidency. But such rumblings will only be listened to if either Bush the man is attacked on a personal level, or the Presidency itself is.
Write to the DNC, to the candidates, warn them to hold fire here. Wanna drive Rove nuts. Give the President his due, and let the more unseemly aspects of what I certainly see as a stunt rise to the top of American consciousness, with the help of some gentle nudges from below.
Angry comment threads are not going to defeat Bush, and 2004 is upon us.
Stencil comes out with:
"Wait until Matthews hears of this -- he'll have a fuckin orgamism."
If true, then he would be having the same what you had when you heard Clinton was heading to mid-east for TG.
Those who live in glass houses should NEVER throw stones to others.
A liberal-hypocrite is IMHO worse than a conservative-racist.
AKB
Let's not oblige the President and his men. This is one time it makes sense to do what the Republicans as presently constituted, twisted sharply to the right, seem prenaturally incapable of doing, and never did for the full eight years of Clinton's presidency, to honor the office of the Presidency, which does not belong to Bush, which belongs to us.
Why?
But as a PR stroke it was masterful.
Thanksgiving is a slow news day and is usually dominated by reports that "person x" had, guess what, "Turkey" for dinner. Now Bush gets the entire day for his photo op.
He succeeded in knocking Michael Jackson, Kobe, and Laci Peterson off the cable channels.
"Two and one-half hours. In the dead of night?"
This really does not matter at all. In the scheme of things neither his visit (nor Hillary's for that matter) change anything.
That said it'd been more effective / impressive if he'd done it publicly, like, say, de Gaulle going to Algeria.
Reminds me of what Politics stands for...
Break it down...
Poli == Many
Tics == Bloodsuckers
Many BloodSuckers...
I think this will spin out as the Senators being genuine (no need to "hide"...) and whistle ass being a Politician...
Way to go, Ein FuhrBush
Hey, is this the same
freaky Ali Karim Bey who
used to write about Kerry as
JFK? Missed ya, baby.
Now take your meds.
One thing for sure, Hillary is going to be pissed that someone stole her PR thunder. If I were Bush, I wouldn't stand in a room full of ashtrays when Hillary is around. Who is going to server Bill his turkey this Thanksgiving?
This will quickly become one of those good news thingies we keep ignoring, horrified as we are by the continuing loss of American soldiers in a guerrila war in a place where we should never have gone in the first place. These bozos think this is an acceptable level of casualties. I wish all of these GIs were home for Thanksgiving, including the ones who have already come home in a box.
Bush Eats Turkey in Baghdad Layover
EXTREMELY short interview with a soldier just now....
On Fox I should have said.
"He did the right thing in this case. It would really be the right thing if he did it without recording it for the media to use as a free campaign commercial."
Umm, he didn't even announce it.
OT, but Michael Moore has been on C-Span for the past hour, being interviewed by Brian Lamb. God, what a breath of fresh air. Something to be thankful for on this special American holiday!"
Best line of this site ever.
www.moorewatch.com
http://www.glennbeck.com/news/11.../
11052003.shtml
And, please, what the fuck is 'honoring the presidency'. He's a public servant. Not a king. If the presidency really 'belongs to us' there is no particular reason to honor it (whatever the fuck that means anyway) by laying off its current occupant. If there is a tactical reason for stayning mum, fair enough. But arguing the case as if it's just 'the right thing to do' is simply cringe-making.
And need I remind you, for all their preternatural inability to behave like civilized mortals, the right seems to be doing very well.
I wonder if he brought the chefs. I wouldn't want Bremer and the boys to be disappointed.
Well, this is good PR. Those who already like Bush will like him more ('cares about our troops'). Those who hate him will hate him more ('Using our soldiers for a photo op.'). Those who are in the middle will probably start liking him more... so, in the end he wins.
Btw, the whole "cover of darkness" thing is probably just because Iraq is in a different time zone. However, the 2 hour duration of his stay is kind of flaky...
RF you fraud,
Hillary is thinking of 2008. If this and Clinton-groupies working for Clark in 2004 does not get through your soft graycells, I am not sure what?
Again, be fair to all. High Noon Everyday.
AKB
PS: Kristoff: I did say JFK as he wrote it. I stopped saying that as someone said he (kerry) stopped. But, I also said that in the end it will be Dean/Edwards ticket. I was away for last month or so and so you did not here. Yes, Dean/Edwards defeat Bush/Cheney. I see darkness now but after the election it will be darker (as in darker before the dawn). If Bush/Cheney are bad, wait till you see Dean/Edwards. It gets worse. America has no participatory-democratic leaders running for office. How sad. It is either hypocrites or rascits.
"As I was saying...
I hope the Demorats have the fortitutde not to point out that such a "stunt" is hardly an advertisement for our policies, and will hardly be seen by Iraqis as such. I hope they won't point out an American President sneaking into a country we've recently liberated and currently occupy for the most idealistic of reasons, we're told, protected by the kind of security unavailable to any of our troops on the ground will hardly be seen as a vindication of our policies, not by anyone.
I'm not being ironic. This is not the slamdunk Rove & co are assuming it is. Lots of Americans at the grassroots are going to see through this gesture. The more so the more the the tv news keeps emphasizing Bush's boldness and courage, which is something that our troops there have to reach deep into themselves to find, every minute of every day of their tour of duty.
It's grumbling at the grassroots that's going to make the difference. Letters to editors, polite ones, email
"Umm, he didn't even announce it."
Yeah, but he has reporters with him and I just heard about it on MSNBC 10 minutes ago...
What a sad, pathetic wretched human being you are Leah. Your visceral Bush hatred is beyond repair.
http://www.glennbeck.com/news/11.../
11052003.shtml
Philly G,
If you think Mike Moore (an ugly, fat, who uses liberals-hypocrites as suckers to buy books for his millions) his your hero, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Grow up. Dissect. Be critical.
AKB
No orgasms for me. I confess I sort of like Hillary, but hers is also a publicity stunt, and she did fuck-all to try to prevent or condemn either of these wars. Bush's visit is pure theater in praise of war and himself. Why didn't he go to Baghdad last year?
It could be. It could also be interpreted as an example of the power of American technology.
Texas is only a few hours away from Iraq. Bush could fly in then be home the day after Thanksgiving.
It could read a bit like your local congressman jumping on an Amtrak from DC back to NYC or Jersey, that Bush represents the troops etc. etc.
"However, the 2 hour duration of his stay is kind of flaky..."
Philly G,
Is that why the picked up a pool of reporters for his two hour trip, and why video of the event will be released when the president's plane lands? What do you mean he didn't announce it. He invited reporters to record it for rebroadcast.
Please. If you think Bush isn't going to spin this as positive PR, you probably think we are going to find WMDs in Iraq.
NewsFlash: President Bush waves from bridge of Titanic!
Good photo op material for now, but I don't think it's going to help in November 04.
CNN has been crowing about the absolute secrecy this was done with, but it doesn't really help to point out that he's not exactly popular in Baghdad at this point.
Does anyone doubt that it was the dead of night? They turned off the lights on the plane and it was under a crescent Moon.
Sew Kewl,,,
I am a fraud!!!
Beat that fellow posters...
Sure has been quite some time since I stuffed a pine cone up a pup Republicans ass...
Love clubbing pup Republicans, makes my day...
Who is going to server Bill his turkey this Thanksgiving?
I presume that like most of us, he can feed himself. Not like Whistle-ass, who needs diaper service.
.
"Philly G,
If you think Mike Moore (an ugly, fat, who uses liberals-hypocrites as suckers to buy books for his millions) his your hero, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Grow up. Dissect. Be critical."
Ali, I think Moore is the spawn of Satan. You mis-interpreted my post.
And looks like you guys have won. Some media outlets already claiming he only went for political gain. What liberal media? Oh THAT liberal media.
And I'm sure the 9 Democratic Dwarves will be quick to follow with some fun sound bites at the next debate too.
SWR confidently says:
"Texas is only a few hours away from Iraq"
I always knew that liberal-hypocrites are slow-thinkers.
Iraq is in a different time zone. TX is in CST. If I were to guess it would be 8-10 hours difference.
AKB
My comment that "Texas is only a few hours away from remark" referred to the impression that Rove was trying to create, not the literal count of hours, minutes, etc.
See the term "the war on metaphor" previously described on this site.
The fact that some media mention the public relations aspects is enough for Philly G to believe that there is a liberal media.
I love how "plans for the trip would be abandoned if word leaked out"...because then, it woul be like dangerous and stuff...
"Good for him! Glad he has the troops on his mind this Thanksgiving."--anonymous
Yeah. I'm surprised, too.
if he really wanted to cheer the troops up he could have rolled out a tv and vcr after everybody got fat and happy on turkey and gravy, and showed the video of him snorting coke off a hooker's ass while AWOL from the fucking texas nation guard while real americans, who didn't have rich senatorial daddies to buy their way out it, got their fucking asses blown away.
I love sets of plastic cutlery!?
Just got off the phone with my relatives back in Missouri. Everyone there was really excited by the President's visit to the troops in Iraq. Even the liberal ones. They recognized that he did it at a great personal risk and it was for the troops. Everyone there could really appreciate how much this meant to the troops. The troops will certainly never forget it. It was too bad all of them couldn't participate in the dinner with the Commander in Chief. The troops love this guy. What a deal!!! Cool.
Everyone in my family is praying that the troops have a happy and safe Thanksgiving and are home soon.
Damn, those soldiers did give Bush a thunderous welcome. Just saw another video of the welcome Bush received. According to reports, no one knew in Iraq of the visit besides the General (missed his name) and his select staff. The troops had no idea. After his Thanksgiving speech thanking the troops for their service in protecting freedom, Bush helped serve Thanksgiving dinner to the troops assembled and mingled freely with them, taking photos and signing autographs. He was totally swamped by soldiers surrounding him with no secret service protection between him and the gathered troops.
Well, they needed to get something else "grand" on videotape now that the "Mission Accomplished" flight deck landing footage is all but useless.
It was General Sanchez.
Of course they brought his chefs. I am sure the conversation went like this:
Chef: I will need butter, ketchup and of course, I will need bull testes for the President's favorite dish.
Private: We don't have any bulls around but we got a bunch of prisoners across the street. Will that work?
Of course the troops love him. Can you imangine what would happen to them if they didn't?....
I wonder how much money he raised.
"Of course the troops love him. Can you imangine what would happen to them if they didn't?...."
New dumbest line ever on this site. Congratulations!
Jones, they went to thunderous applause spontaneously when he walked into the room. The troops were told that they were having Thanksgiving dinner with Paul Bremmer (yawn!). They could have just been respectfully quiet when Bush walked in. I think the troops in Iraq care more for the President than those that want him unseated.
There were standing O's all throughout this speech. Lets see if Hillary gets the same treatment then compare and contrast if it is just forced respect for Governmental officials.
""Good for him! Glad he has the troops on his mind this Thanksgiving."--anonymous
Yeah. I'm surprised, too.
Dave from RI | 11.27.03 - 2:18 pm | #"
Mind?
He doesn't. This is all about the election. If he really cared about the troops, he wouldn't have lied us into the war in the first place.
I don't think anyone yet has mentioned that Bush is still claiming the 'flypaper' strategy. He said:
"You are defeating the terrorists here in Iraq so we don't have to face them in our own country."
"There were standing O's all throughout this speech. Lets see if Hillary gets the same treatment then compare and contrast if it is just forced respect for Governmental officials.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 2:30 pm | #"
Asshole.
Do you think she is there for the adulation? She's there to serve her country, not generate footage for her re-election.
Good for George. I think he should start taking frequent trip to Bagdhad. Actually, I think he should serve out the remainder of his term.
"I don't think anyone yet has mentioned that Bush is still claiming the 'flypaper' strategy. He said:
"You are defeating the terrorists here in Iraq so we don't have to face them in our own country."
0 | 11.27.03 - 2:34 pm | #"
Same old crap. You could wrap shit in the flag and 'wingers would eat it for desert.
First, good that Bush finally visits Iraq. Second: pity that he only does it in the dead of night for a couple of hours.
I had thought to put a post on an earlier thread exhorting GWB to visit Iraq so he can see for himself what's going on for good and ill alike - also, the Iraqis in Baghdad, or wherever Bush chose to visit, would get a glimpse of their new surrogate chief. Even if he was concealed to an extent by the security 'bubble' following him around.
Shame. I hope he can make good that particular error before the election.
Good for George. I think he should start taking frequent trip to Bagdhad. Actually, I think he should serve out the remainder of his term in Bagdhad and Kabul
"He doesn't. This is all about the election. If he really cared about the troops, he wouldn't have lied us into the war in the first place."
There we go with the "lies" again. Care to remind us of what those lies are? Is it the "imminent threat" line he never used? Or perhaps its the WMD's that Clinton, Gore, Germany, France, the UN, etc all "lied" about too?
Predicted Liberal Spin
BUSH LIED!!! He said he was going to have Thanksgiving in Crawford, Texas.
Can you imangine what would happen to them if they didn't?...."
New dumbest line ever on this site. Congratulations!
Philly G
Actually, dissent has been forbidden among the troops. Its not dumb, its accurate.
Yes. As a matter of fact it is about the imminent threat that Bush and his cronies trumpeted. And also the non-existent weapons of mass destruction that he said he was certain existed, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. Have you been paying attention? Or you just an idiot? I vote inattentive idiot.
Same old crap. You could wrap shit in the flag and 'wingers would eat it for desert.
Why would wingers eat is for "desert"? However, I do like the buffets in Las Vegas.
"Predicted Liberal Spin
BUSH LIED!!! He said he was going to have Thanksgiving in Crawford, Texas.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 2:38 pm | #"
When are you people going to wake up to yourselves?
There we go with the "lies" again. Care to remind us of what those lies are? Is it the "imminent threat" line he never used? Or perhaps its the WMD's that Clinton, Gore, Germany, France, the UN, etc all "lied" about too?
Philly G
Yes, WMD's is what I feel lied to about.
Also, the connections between Al-Q seem to have been false.
"Predicted Liberal Spin
BUSH LIED!!! He said he was going to have Thanksgiving in Crawford, Texas.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 2:38 pm | #"
When are you people going to wake up to yourselves?
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 2:41 pm | #
Talking to yourself is better than talking to no one.
Do you think she is there for the adulation? She's there to serve her country, not generate footage for her re-election.
Today is Thanksgiving, not April's Fools, silly.
Don't forget the imminence of the threat. There was that to, despite the startlingly Clintonesque denials of the brown-shirts.
Yes. As a matter of fact it is about the imminent threat that Bush and his cronies trumpeted
How many times has this liberal BS been knocked down? You can't say someone is lying if you make up the lie then accuse them of saying it.
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option. -- President Bush, State of the Union Speech, Jan. 2003.
"Do you think she is there for the adulation? She's there to serve her country, not generate footage for her re-election.
Today is Thanksgiving, not April's Fools, silly.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 2:43 pm | #"
Do you honestly believe that she is there with the expectation that she will receive standing ovations?
But I attempt to engage someone who has not even a passing familiarity with truth. Please excuse.
"Don't forget the imminence of the threat. There was that to, despite the startlingly Clintonesque denials of the brown-shirts."
Quote please.
Philly G.
I don't hate Bush. Grownups can oppose a President's policy and work to defeat him at the next election without hating him.
Nor is there anything viceral about my reaction to this morning's event in Baghdad. I'm quite sure that Bush was sincere in his desire to share Thanksgiving with the troops. That doesn't mean that the trip doesn't raise questions worth asking. I would have had a completely different response had Bush & co took with him two other high American officials, say, like the Speaker of the House, and the minority leader, or the same for the Senate. A Republican and a Democrat. Though Nancy Pelosi opposed the war, I'm sure she would have been happy to accompany the President. Nor do I think that the reception would have ben any less warm if the President had found a way to truly express the genuine support felt by all Americans for those who are serving in Iraq - that goes for critics of Bush, as well as supporters.
Your own visceral response that
So the threat wasn't imminent, and that is what made it so urgent that we attack? You are an idiot.
Time for Turkey. Put the politics aside for a day and just enjoy yourself today.
Have a good Thanksgiving all.
""Don't forget the imminence of the threat. There was that to, despite the startlingly Clintonesque denials of the brown-shirts."
Quote please.
Philly G | 11.27.03 - 2:47 pm | #"
How's that?
"Philly G,
If you think Mike Moore (an ugly, fat, who uses liberals-hypocrites as suckers to buy books for his millions) his your hero, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Grow up. Dissect. Be critical."
Ali, I think Moore is the spawn of Satan. You mis-interpreted my post.
How sweet: the trolls are feeding each other for Thanksgiving.
So the nasty little creep sneaks into an aircraft hangar in the dead of night for another uber-expensive photo op, and he receives "standing ovations"? And from the very enlisted men he's so brazenly fucking over? What is wrong with these guys?
anyone who is critical of this President must be a wretched human being is considerably less civil a response than were my original comments.
And also the non-existent weapons of mass destruction that he said he was certain existed, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary
Since we haven't found Saddam Hussein, he never existed despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. American Liberals have become the "Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal" that Douglas Adams wrote about HHGTG.
Leah: Bush is a sociopath; the only thing he's 'sincere' about in this sqaulid little affair is his own personal selfish wellbeing. Don't kid yourself on that one.
As for Nancy Pelosi, I don't doubt she'd grovel in dogshit at Bush's feet if he told her to.
He wouldn't meet with military families until he was shamed into it by public criticism.
Hillary Clinton makes a trip to visit troops in Afghanistan, the forgotten place that has no oil. So Dubya feels he has to respond.
Chickenshit George is slinking around again, avoiding being a leader in pursuit of photo ops.
So the threat wasn't imminent, and that is what made it so urgent that we attack? You are an idiot.
Once again from the State of the Union speech.
Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. -- President Bush, State of the Union, Jan. 2003
Try reading next time before making an ass of yourself.
somewhere in Iraq right now, there's an "insurgent" who decided not to shoot at a mysterious plane he saw a few hours ago, who's thinking "Oh, shit."
Imagine if they'd shot the plane down and now Cheney would be on CNN being sworn in and trying to explain how the president came to be killed in Iraq when noone knew he was there.
The guy took a measure of risk flying into Iraq. Minimizing the risk was just the sensible thing to do.
It would have been nice if he'd minimized the risk for troops there, too, by ensuring that everyone sent to Iraq had the top-line flak vests, armored Humvees, adequate rations and water,etc....
And taking the (minimalized) risk was something he HAD to do. The "George Bush Is A Coward" meme keeps getting stronger and stronger and more widespread. His poll numbers keep getting closer and closer to the tipping point where they go into an irreversible slide and the next election is doomed.
So he had to do SOMETHING that could be presented as "manly" and "brave".
The guy -did- put his life at some risk to do the Iraq trip. But to me, that's a sign of political desperation, not support for the troops.
You have all just viewed Masterful Rovian politics.
This is legendary advertising stuff.
Makes me wonder what they are going to do with all the military wounded in hospitals this Christmas.
I am looking for a big bump in Halliburton stock on Friday.
And also the non-existent weapons of mass destruction that he said he was certain existed, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary
Since we haven't found Saddam Hussein, he never existed despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.
1.) if they exist, we fucked up, because we didn't secure them, and now may still be used against us.
2.) If they didn't exist, then we were misled into war.
Its a dilema. I prefer #2
the troops better enjoy their visit from the "President" while they're alive and well, cuz he sure won't touch 'em with a ten foot pole should they get killed or injured.
Time for Turkey. Put the politics aside for a day and just enjoy yourself today.
Have a good Thanksgiving all.
Philly G
Same to you.
things are going SOOOO well in Iraq, that's why they had to sneak in and sneak out before anyone knew they were there.
Uh oh, that little visit got the French all upset. Don't cry in your turkey boys.
For those troops still uninformed enough to actually enjoy a visit from Georgie, good. I'm sure it perked them up, and they can use all the perking they can get, being separated from their families for months at a time.
I do think it's kind of strange that he came in unannounced, in the middle of the night, with the lights out. That doesn't express much confidence in the security situation in Iraq.
(And, Philly, he lied. You've been shown evidence over and over again, on countless different threads. But by all means, continue your willful stupidity if you like. I don't care that much today.)
yes, that was the right thing to do, and masterful PR, too. I guess it means Dean should wash the feet of the poor or something by next week.
"He was totally swamped by soldiers surrounding him with no secret service protection between him and the gathered troops."
So we're supposed to be impressed that the President didn't need armed guards to protect him from our soldier? That us very strange logic indeed!
Since we haven't found Saddam Hussein, he never existed despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.
An interestingly idiotic extrapolation of an otherwise sensible analysis. Nice try though.
But we weren't talking about Hussein. We were talking about weapons. The ones about which Rumsfeld said: "We know where they are." And so on.
Still looks like Bushie scrambling for the exits, foreign policy still in shambles and still lacking a coherent success strategy for the region and defense.
Happy Thanksgiving, folks!
Best wish for 2004, a new Commander in Chief!
.....
or those troops still uninformed enough to actually enjoy a visit from Georgie, good. -- Seraphiel
I love the support the troops get from our liberal friends. Calling 600 men and women in uniform uninformed idiots is just another shining example of this liberal compassion.
I do think it's kind of strange that he came in unannounced, in the middle of the night, with the lights out. That doesn't express much confidence in the security situation in Iraq.
Strange? Should he have flown in with lights on and a big flashing sign saying "PRESIDENT BUSH ON BOARD" with an arrow pointing to the spot on Air Force 1 to aim at? Come on, get with reality. The last thing you do is put any President into harms way on purpose. Sounds like the Secret Service and the Military took prudent steps to make sure the President arrived safely. If Iraq was so out of control, he would have never shown up in the first place.
I just saw the video of Hillary in Afghanistan visitin
I just saw the video of Hillary in Afghanistan visiting for Thanksgiving. A big difference in the welcome she received compared to Bush. I don't think she followed tradition either. I didn't see her serve one meal to the troops. Senior officials and officers always serve the enlisted on Thanksgiving when they are serving in harm's way.
It should also be noted that Bush's trip had been planned for months and not spur of the moment.
And from the very enlisted men he's so brazenly fucking over? What is wrong with these guys?
I noticed he met with 600 troops. In Fort Carlson a couple of days ago, it was 5,000. We know Rove pre-screens all of Bush's public appearances, so this "surpise" visit was carefully orchestrated. I think his father managed to get a couple of thousand when he visited Kuwait after the Desert Storm. The fact that he couldn't scrouge up at least a thousand or so means how much the soldiers respect the man.
So we're supposed to be impressed that the President didn't need armed guards to protect him from our soldier? That us very strange logic indeed!
Well to hear the liberals bitch and moan about how Bush doesn't care for the troops, the troops seem to have the opposite opinion.
I wouldn't make too much of the troops reaction. They were stunned and reacted mechanically according to their training. If they had known about it maybe some would have prepared criticisms, but it's going to be like when you wake up in the middle of the night thinking of a great comeback to an insult you received three days ago.
Come to think of it, maybe it was more than just the desire to surprise them that kept the troops in the dark til the last moment. Maybe they would have tipped off a few Iraqis about that incoming, dark plane.
First off, I want to say that I am absolutely sickened by this (quite obvious) publicity stunt. Prince Georgie is getting desperate and they needed to DO SOMETHING. And, as someone noted earlier, if he REALLY cared about the troops, he would not have lied us into a war. How much blood can be on one man's hand? How many people is he, personally, responsible for killing?
Secondly, there was some discussion earlier (I had to pick through all the icky-troll postings -- sheesh -- what delusions) about the supposed role of the Presidency. In some little bookstore in Vermont, I found a book (I even think it was free!), published way back in 1970, by George E. Reedy, called "The Twilight of the Presidency." My husband -- who had become annoyed with my insistent ranting about the Bushies and our corporate media - insisted I read it. He was right. Here's a pull quote: "The inner life of the White House is essentially the life of a barnyard...Below the President is a mass of in
This shows how much our dear president cares about our troops, and they for him-although I am a little surprised that the troops didn't spontaniously put up a large banner behind him. Oh, well, what would it say? (not Mission Accomplished!)
Damn. Gotta continue the post...
"intrigue, posturing, strutting, cringing, and pious 'commitment' to irrelevant windbaggery -- that all too frequently successful collection of the untalented, the unpassionate, and the insincere seeking to convince the public that it is brilliant, compassionate, and dedicated" The first chapter is entitled "The American Monarchy"
I think what Reedy says more than applies to Bush's cartel and, in particular, to this rather nasty stunt.
Atrios (adapting English teacher tone) If you haven't read this, you really must.
"Well to hear the liberals bitch and moan about how Bush doesn't care for the troops, the troops seem to have the opposite opinion"
Hey, he's the President, that's impressive.
It says nothing about the politics of the troops. They're diciplined human beings, not trolls.
Look, the troops should give the President respect, and should be happy he visited them.
W is still a lying incompentent President, but he is the commander in chief, and should be given that level of respect by our armed servicemen.
I am glad that they have enough class to show him that respect, even though I am sure there are a great number who know he lied to get him into this quagmire, and know that political considerations played a part in his deciding to visit (hence informing reporters about this "secret" trip and bringing them along).
Our soldiers showed class and dignity in a difficult situation and I am very proud of them.
Happy thanksgiving all.
BTW- George's speech in Cinci prior to the war. For all of those saying he didn't overplay the war threat, I'll let you pick out the lies, I don't have time for them all.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/r...20021007-
8.html
or those troops still uninformed enough to actually enjoy a visit from Georgie, good. -- Seraphiel
I love the support the troops get from our liberal friends. Calling 600 men and women in uniform uninformed idiots is just another shining example of this liberal compassion.
She didn't call them idiots. The brainwashing tools of our society are effective. Sometimes the better the education, the more brainwashed.
Well to hear the liberals bitch and moan about how Bush doesn't care for the troops, the troops seem to have the opposite opinion.
Anonymous
That's right. And honda has a new car you just have to buy!
Bush busted you all. I like it. I like when frauds/hypocrites/parasites get busted.
AKB, you're saying some stupid things. All presidents have traditionally done this, along with attend funerals, etc. Bush has been very hands-off during this war, and now he's gone there, stayed a couple of hours, and returned. He still hasn't attended a soldier's funeral. How is it anybody has been busted? You seem to not know enough about American politics to comment here.
************************
CNN had a blurb on the screen saying that the first lady may not have been told of the Iraq visit. Did anybody else see that?
************************
I doubt that Sen. Clinton cares whether the troops cheer her or not. She went to call attention to Afghanistan and to support the troops that are there.
you're sooooo predictable Anon. I knew you would take the bait.
The issue *I'm* raising is not that it's terrible he visited the troops. I'm sure it's good for their morale. It ought to go without saying that they need all the morale-boosting they can get (I feel obligated to point that out to free speech haters like yourself. I shouldn't have to, but that's how things are these days)
The point is that the Bush regime keeps insisting things are a lot better in Iraq than the SCLM is reporting. OK, so if it's so great, why does he have to sneak in and out before the insurgents know he's there?
I mean, after all, Richard Perle predicted in Septmeber that in a year he'd be surprised if there wasn't a square in baghdad named after Bush. So Iraqis just love him, right? I mean, he should have felt free to go on the streets of Baghdad and shake hands with the wonderfully grateful Iraqis-in-the-street while he was there, right?
""Don't forget the imminence of the threat. There was that to, despite the startlingly Clintonesque denials of the brown-shirts."
Quote please.
Philly G | 11.27.03 - 2:47 pm | #"
How's that?
An even better site with video clips of various members of the admin and their lies to get us into this war:
http://www.angelfire.com/creep/g...h/
remindus.html
Someone give this man bandwidth!
The troops better get ready for a major new ass fucking from the Resident. It always happens within a month or so after the photo op...
According to reports, no one knew in Iraq of the visit besides the General (missed his name) ...
Sanchez
...Bush helped serve Thanksgiving dinner to the troops assembled and mingled freely with them, taking photos and signing autographs. He was totally swamped by soldiers surrounding him with no secret service protection between him and the gathered troops.
You think there was no security there? For one thing, I saw men in suits with him. Another thing, that's a pretty stupid assumption.
where was timothy bottoms last night?
If things in Iraq were so great, why did he have to sneak in?
Come on.
What's with all the fucking trolls lately?
Go spend time with your families and give thanks. Why are you harrassing us here?
"...those troops still uninformed enough to actually enjoy a visit from Georgie, good." -- Seraphiel
...Calling 600 men and women in uniform uninformed idiots is just another shining example of this liberal compassion.
Anonymous
Is it just me, or does anyone else notice something unusual about Anonymous's post? (And not that he credits liberals with compassion!)
This is campaign politics, pure Rove.
They know that the "aircraft carrier, mission accomplished" piece is probably not going to work, so they went back to the drawing board, take two, coming ad infinitum to a TV near you.....
Hmm... given Bush's past history, visiting the troops must mean that they're going to get screwed somehow. Every group he's visited for a flying photo-op has ended up defunded somehow.
Given the announced wage-rise, the Bushies are probably going to start charging soldiers for ammunition or something.
What's with all the fucking trolls lately?
It's not enough that they control the government and the media, they just have to keep at it until all contrary opinion is completely silenced. If they can't do that in this blog, they can at least "jam" liberal opinion, like we used to broadcast over the top of soviet shortwave broadcasts back in the evil empire days.
Streaker Busted:
"Bush busted you all. I like it. I like when frauds/hypocrites/parasites get busted.
AKB, you're saying some stupid things. All presidents have traditionally done this."
ALL presidents. If true, then why you and other frauds here whining. The problem is that your hero (Clinton) got busted and you can't handle it. So, you make Bush a boggie man. I mean you liberal-hypocrites are so easy to read that if life were such then I would be a king. But, life is tough. There are competitive people everywhere. May be in the liberal-hypocrite land, where critical thinking is forebidden, it is easy.
AKB
Detroit 22 Green Bay 14
Who says miracles don't happen?
So GW finally found something he can rub Daddy's nose in.
Now how many Iraqis are going to redouble their efforts to kill US soldiers because Bush went into their country and said "missed me, nyaa nya nyaa nyaaaa nya," then ran away.
Bring 'em on, part II.
Philly G had a quote from George Bush's own re-election web site which used the word "imminent" with regards to Saddam's threat a few months back, by yours trolly for a start... I'd rummage it out, but the dumb fool won't read it this time either. After all, anyone who asserts that France and Germany held the same opinion as America as to what Saddam had and how to respond to it is waaaaayyyy beyond reason.
Amusing though to see the ignorant trolls attack each other though. Oh, and yes Philly... ALL of the US's politicians were lying. Clinton AND Bush. Your politican's have quite the world reputation for doing so in fact. It's part of everyone else thinks your "democracy" is so damn pathetic...
...then I would be a king. But, life is tough. There are competitive people everywhere. May be in the liberal-hypocrite land, where critical thinking is forebidden, it is easy.
I think you missed the point of my post, AKB. My point was: why is it such a big deal that bush went to Iraq, if all presidents have done things like this in the past! Do you understand? He's not the first, but you'd think he had just invented the custom.
It's a big deal because he's unpopular all over the world, noone expected him to go, and now people (seems like even the trolls here) are surprised and giddy with relief that he was cheered, by the troops. So what if he only stayed for two hours? So what if he has conducted a war for over eight months, with over 400 dead and countless other casualties, and he's never attended a funeral?
I'm glad he's finally lived up to one of his presidential responsibilities, even if for only a couple of hours. If we keep on, maybe he'll start rea
If we keep on, maybe he'll start reading newspapers.
What's with this being cut off? It's new ...
your hero (Clinton) got busted and you can't handle it
please explain the "Clinton got busted" part ...
Streaker:
Got you now. But, then why are people having highs with Clinton going to mid-east and sudden stomach-upset as she is off the radar because of Bush in mid-east.
In sum, my point: Liberals are hypocrites. They know why Hilly-baby is heading there. Bush is going for the same reason. But, they want to identify his reason and not hers. Liberals, as usual, show their naked souls as hypocrites, frauds, and parasites. Not one post dissected Hilly-baby's reason. Not one.
AKB
this from dailykos.com
But while the media slavishly covers [Bush's brief Baghdad trip] for maximum White House benefit, they conveniently forget that Clinton visited another war zone on Thanksgiving only four years ago, and he was able to travel into a war zone only five months after the US-arranged coalition secured the liberation of Kosovo. My how quickly they forget. The big difference was that Clinton was warmly received by a large contingent of troops in Kosovo, but more importantly was also warmly received by the natives prior to the event, who thanked him for their liberation.
Now I'm no fan of the Kosovo war but the point being made here is: isn't this what they said would happen in Iraq?
"Hilly-baby"?
"I mean you liberal-hypocrites are so easy to read that if life were such then I would be a king."
Let me try and make sense out of this sentence: You would be a king if life were as easy to read as a liberal-hypocrite.
I don't understand. "life" is one word and one syllable so it is much easier to read than "a liberal-hypocrite" which is three words and seven syllables with a hyphen. Either way, how would being able to read either make you a king?
"Photo Op"
My thoughts exactly. At least Hillary got to talk to some people including women during her visit.
a
satiRic air tanK:
dailykos.com reminds me of Stephen Glass. Get it? This kos guy is over-hyperactive when it comes to GOP. He will say anything, just about anything, to put democrats (aka liberal-hypocrites) in a good light. Anything.
AKB
It doesn't make the least bit of difference, Bush's little trip. Tomorrow, one or two soldiers will be killed, a dozen or so Iraqi's will be killed some of them innocents some not, scores more will loss what little trust they have in the US forces, and Iraq will continue its grind into despair. Back home the 50% who love Bush will continue to love him and the other half won't. But you can't sustain a war effort when half the country is opposed to it and the other half only supports it with words. I don't see people rushing to the recruiting stations. So, nothing changes. Those who support the war can call those who don't "terrorist lovers" all day long, but that won't put boots on the ground in Iraq only a draft will do that and there is nobody with the politcal will to do that. Withdrawl will come soon and half of the country will call it a great victory and half won't. Nothing changes. A nation divided, just like it was in November 2000.
glad to see that he went.
still confused why we invaded.
Ali's setting up a strawman. Here it is:
Liberals were excited that Hillary was going to Iraq for Thanksgiving.
I'm a liberal, and I think that I speak for most of us when I say that I didn't give a fat Philadelphia flying fuck where Hillary spent Thanksgiving. I know that Neil Boortz and other Clinton-stalkers began feverishly rubbing their nether regions when they heard about her visit, but no liberals I know figured that it was more special in the grand scheme of things than an Iraq visit by, say, Senator John Warner. Go hang with the Empire State reserves, Hillary. Try the lentils--they're special.
This public projection by conservative trolls has got to stop. Just hold up a poster of Hillary with your left hand, Bey, and have at it with your other one. Don't advertise your fetish.
...then why are people having highs with Clinton going to mid-east and sudden stomach-upset as she is off the radar because of Bush in mid-east.
I saw pictures of Clinton in Afghanistan several hours before I saw a news bulletin of bush in Iraq. Both stories are now part of Thanksgiving day, 2003. Both stories will make it on all major channels tonight. BOTH STORIES! What is your point?
Not one post dissected Hilly-baby's reason. Not one.
Hers was not a surprise visit. Even the cable and network news channels are not surprised by her trip. They all are surprised by bush's. You watch the news tonight and every report of this trip will use the word 'surprised'. It won't just be because no one knew about it. It will be because people didn't think he would go there! And what does 'got you now' mean?
Go to dailykos and read the articles linked there by Soto about Clinton's visits to Kosovo. (Have you been banned by kos?)
AKB:
It's not about dailykos (he's not the original source of the quote anyway, I was just trying to provide a link for others). It's about the substance of the quote. I hate Clinton for bombing my family in Belgrade; I'm just objectively pointing out the difference between one president's visit and another.
AKB,
If you want to talk about critical thinking, try making sense. Check your logic, syntax and spelling.
My problem with Bush has nothing to do with Clinton (who I think was a good president, though he's not my "hero"). I hate Bush because it's clear to me he will do anything to get his way--lie, steal and kill. He has no respect for democracy, thought or human life. He sold this unnecessary, illegal war--this massacre--in the name of God.
If Bush "busted" us, he busted you too, pal. We're all fucked. I'm sorry you can't see that.
Oh, and I believe I "dissected Hilly-baby's reason" for her trip up above (at 2:07). Calm down and stop lying.
I remember Johnson had a nice visit to Vietnam.
Brian C.B.:
What is a strawman? I am an independent, btw.
Steaker:
Got it now mean that I understood you. My point was basically that no one from liberal-hypocrite land was critical of Hilly-baby's real reason (2008?) for the trip. But, everyone jumped on Bush (2004 reason). That's not a fair - dissect all. Not just bush but also hilly-baby. PS: No one can ban me.
AKB
Ali Budd, I'm not sure what you meant by: "... she did fuck-all to try to prevent or condemn either of these wars."
Could you please explain?
Ali Budd:
I said it before that he would lose 2004. I know I am busted too. But, here I was specifically talking about busting the upper-west, NYT, Hollywood, liberal-hypocrite cheerleaders everywhere. Their saint, hilly-baby, just got busted. That's all. I am not sure who I dislike more: Bush or Hilly-baby. I suspect her as an immigrant I have had to endure a lot of discrimination from liberal-hypocrites.
AKB
I'm a pretty rabid Bush hater, but I have no problem with the president going over there for thanksgiving even if it is just another PR stunt. It's good for the troops.
If anything should be questioned, it's if putting the commander in chief in such danger is a wise move.
I just hope he took his chefs with him.
..and his tasters
Streaker,
I mean she supported both the wars (like most democrats) and to my knowledge hasn't really repented. I'm furious at the democrats for giving Bush so much power, and as she's the most visible and thus most powerful democrat, she's being irresponsible, or worse.
Hope that helps.
I don't entirely blame her for supporting the Afghanistan effort, BTW, even if I question its purpose.
-billy (my usual name here)
...putting the commander in chief in such danger is a wise move.
I wonder how they got him in there? Simply landing at the Baghdad airport sounds pretty risky. Flying a big airplane with a couple of jet escorts probably drew attention. Has anyone heard?
...she's the most visible and thus most powerful democrat, she's being irresponsible, or worse.
Well, being a senator from New York, I doubt that she had a choice, if she wants to continue in politics. I hate that that's the world we live in, but it is.
Maybe he flew a solo fighter jet, that would rock!!!!!
Ali,
I'm sorry for any discrimination you've experienced. If I were you I'd worry more about John Ashcroft than Hillary Clinton.
Well, being a senator from New York, I doubt that she had a choice, if she wants to continue in politics. I hate that that's the world we live in, but it is.
Streaker
True. Polls show Guiliani kicking her ass and barely beating schumer.
What is truly sad was a recent interview where she said she was planning a 2008 run.
She never mentioned that their might be an incumbent Democrat to run against.
If I were you I'd worry more about John Ashcroft than Hillary Clinton.
billy budd
Ashcroft is worse, admittedly. But Clinton is so far right of the Democratic party that she should be a Republican.
Sarandon stated she hated Hillary for her positions.
http://www.dsausa.org/lowwage/Do...ments/
TANF.html
Unfortunately, a cadre of "moderate Democrats" affiliated with the Democratic Leadership Council, including Senators Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman, has joined the President. They have embraced the higher work requirements and seem unwilling to seriously address the problem of poverty. Some of these Democrats have gone so far right on welfare that a number of Republican Senators, including Olympia Snowe and Orrin Hatch, have actually found themselves significantly to the left of the DLC Democrats.
That was just a single example of her position.
Dear Ali,
Clinton's not President anymore. Let it go, you fucking tool.
And I didn't have any idea Hilary was over there, nor did I care. Hilary doesn't mean jack shit to me: she's not my hero, she doesn't even show up on my radar. But then, I'm not an insane winger who obsesses about her and her non-existent Presidential campaign, so I guess I'm lucky in that respect.
P.S. Go stuff yourself with Stove Top until you have a massive heart attack, you fucking moron.
Here's all she said:
Asked by Bunte magazine why she was not standing in 2004, a race already well under way, the New York senator said she was happy with her current job.
But people are disappointed she was not competing, she was told.
"I know. Well, perhaps I'll do it next time around," she replied.
The question is, was it really him? I'm still waiting for the voiceprint analysis.
Sadly Rove managed to beat Democrats again ( except Hillary). What a stroke of genius to send Bush to Iraq right now. All that danger and all.
In Hillary's case she needs it for the future. In some way she may use it to undercut Dean. It is a bit early to use this particular op for a rumored presidential bid.
She may use for her senate re-election campaign. But it seems an odd waste of such a powerfull trip for just a re-election.
Unless she is really worried about Rudy.
Who ever advised her to go ( before Rove) should be tapped to give the Dem candidates tips.
Except Dean who is doing very well all on their own.
I think the bottom line is that many of us on the left either despised the Clintons for real-world reasons (as opposed to GOP propaganda, big difference there) or (at best) were pretty damned unimpressed with Bill's actions in the White House and Hillary's current activities. All this horseshit about how we mindlessly supported Clinton while attacking Bush for the "same thing" is exactly that: horseshit. Moreso, the reality is percisely the exact opposite: the reactionaries screamned non-stop at Clinton for things they're giving Bush a free pass on.
I realize that far-right trolls are non too bright and will believe whatever the hell they want regardless of the facts, but we on the left have been a hell of a lot more consistent than they've been during the past 2 administrations.
Here are what the l-dotters are saying over there ... I went to see what drudge had about the trip, and couldn't resist looking:
"The woman doing the news on channel 4 here in Boston, said the story was so cool it gave her goose bumps.
W just knows how to do things right.
Reply 4 - Posted by: rocket scientist, 11/27/2003 12:31:34 PM
"Thank you GW. He is already on his way back to the US safely.
Reply 5 - Posted by: reason incarnate, 11/27/2003 12:32:56 PM
"Pretty studly.
Reply 6 - Posted by: Thos Weatherby, 11/27/2003 12:34:47 PM
"The Democrats spin will be that W lied about having Thanksgiving in Crawford.
Reply 55 - Posted by: Chance, 11/27/2003 1:04:28 PM
"Yep - that Texas 'cowboy' really has guts.
"Hey dems, what you see here is a REAL LEADER.
"Landing at Baghdad International Airport, when he was supposed to be having thanksgiving dinner with Laura in Crawford!!
"Can't you just hear Laura saying, 'he is where? Iraq?'
Than
All that danger and all.
WTF? They've been telling us over and over that things were good and getting better!!
...Can't you just hear Laura saying, 'he is where? Iraq?'
Thank you God for our gutsy president. "
Why is everyone, EVERYONE, so surprised that he did this? The cons are shocked and relieved that he did it. Clinton went to Afghanistan with little fanfare, and now drudge et al are talking about how the POTUS upstaged her!
Billy Bud:
I am over it. Thanks. I take it because I am an immigrant. Rome was not built in one day. And all that.
You got it, though. The reason I want Bush to lose is because of Ashcroft.
Now, The Ghost Of Bill Hicks:
You fraud. I told here already I am an independent. I have told in past that I am a vegan. I am a muslim who believes in participatory democracy but who does not eat animals. You are not in my league. Face it. You are a slow-witted liberal-hypocrite who thinks the all the worlds problems have answers by you and your kind. You are a footnote, may be not even that.
AKB
yup, the pr boys couldn't have hillary, my senator, upstage whistle ass.
Boy, am I jealous.
Oh, I can snark it, in Iraq two hours and he'll be raising an heroic monument to himself. Georgance of Iraq.
Those troops wouldn't be there in the first place if he hadn't lied and lied them there in the first place.
The time for him to do the right thing is many months past, this is nothing but a dog and pony show for political use.
oh my god are the wingers still claiming that the war wasnt justified by an imminent threat rationale? stupid gullible true believers, theyll swallow any republican spin point.
AKB, I have nothing against you and I too am sorry for troubles you have had here as an immigrant. The problem I have is with how you generalize and collectivize everything --- all liberals are hypocrites, for example. Some are, some aren't. Probably the same percentage as the rest of the world's population.
And the only issue you have with bush is Ashcroft? You're a Muslim and you have no problem with his preemptive war on a Muslim country and his lying to get us there? You have no problem with his domestic policies, or lack thereof? You have no problem with his family's connections to: the CIA, Sun Myung Moon, Saddam Hussein, the bin Ladens, numerous arms manufacturers, or his grandfather's famed supporter for Nazis, or his secrecy? I mean, these things are all documented.
Streaker: a lot of the facination with this event is the absolute secrecy that went into planning and executing this event. They kept this more secret than an undercover CIA operative's identity!
They kept this more secret than an undercover CIA operative's identity!
Complete with embeds. I read that they confiscated cell phones just to be sure.
With all the practice, this guy has become great at lying to us. The creep should have served when it was his turn. Fascist pig bastard, burn in hell for all eternity.
Oh and Happy Thansgiving!
Bx Gets No Credit for Counting Coup on Iraq
One week after offending everyone in Britain by slapping the Queen in the face, repeatedly, destroying her favorite garden, threatening her with military force, and putting her puppy Bliar in the hospital,
Bullshit Bx, the Genocide King, counts coup on the country he has bathed in blood.
"Saddam kept the blood pools at such a pleasant temperature, it was a pleasure to come here for a dip. Heck, I even brought a Cardinal to baptize me in the blood like back home at Yale."
The press, as instructed, mistook this 'trip to the spa' for a visit to the troops. Bob Hope he ain't; the 150 troops he visited were forced to shave their nuts and get tattoos from a bent coat hanger before being allowed into His Mightiness' Holy Presence.
"Er, Mr. Preznit, you missed a spot. There's no blood on the back of your neck." "What! Bring me the head of a 7-year old, IMMEDIATELY!!!"
Yup. Photo op. From the trolls on the board, sounds like it worked great on Bush's core. Rove can play these folks like a fiddle.
The rightwingers actually seem to be gloating over the fact that Bush has "stolen" Hillary's spotlight with his timing in Iraq. They seem to take pride in the fact that Bush is such a shallow little man his motivation for the trip was more about his hatred for Clinton than his concern for the troops.
Once major combat ended (more than six months ago)there has been a parade of Senators making the same trip she will be making tomorrow and I'm sure others will follow. But for some reason Hillary's is the only one that is being singled out as if it's
a publicity stunt rather than a fact finding mission.
The trips are practically routine by now. Unlike Bush they are planned in the light of day. They visit a few schools and spend the night in Kuwait and keep their photo op's more low key than the spectacle we saw today. But then, most Hollywood Premier's are less scripted than a Bush photo op,even on a normal day.
Pathetic.
the Dude on Fox news was heavily aroused this afternoon in regards to bush's trip.
I kid you not, the level of excitement on the dude was embarrassing.
CNN has been crowing about the absolute secrecy this was done with, but it doesn't really help to point out that he's not exactly popular in Baghdad at this point.
RichK
Even asslicking CNN coverage couldn't obscure the fact that there was soldier grumbling -- anonymous and off camera, of course -- after going through the motions of applauding so as not to be harassed by their command.
I wonder if Commander Camera-Tan has grasped yet the irony of being less secure in the land he conquered than Saddam "Really Desperate Now" Hussein.
yeah that applause standing ovations etc. seems kinda scripted. after lynchy, the mission accomplished banner, astroturf letters it all seems pretty suspicious
"All alone on Thanksgiving and no one to love him. An ex-President deserves better."
Maybe Bill is shacked up with Paris Hilton and a digital video recorder?
Bush's visit was a publicity stunt. Clinton's visit is a publicity stunt. There, happy? I'm giving Hillary the same treatment as Bush.
If liberals are hypocrites, then what the hell are conservatives? They need to change the name of the GOP to Grand Hypocrisy Party.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Rove's political cunning is shining once again. Liberals love nuance, right? I think this is one of the most nuanced events of Bush's presidency. There are so many factors that came together to make this visit happen that there's not one that sticks out as the obvious progenitor, as yet.
As someone else noted, it's good for troop morale, it's the moral thing to do...and I can't believe that George Bush is a completely cynical, completely political animal anymore than I would believe that about Clinton (I do think Clinton was, like, 98% political and I, in general, liked him).
In the end this is an example of both underhanded political opportunism and a sincere gesture by the prez made to the troops, some of which are dying following his orders. That's got to weigh on his conscience a little bit, don't you think? Wouldn't it weigh on any person's conscience?
Bush has a conscience? Who knew!
"The rightwingers actually seem to be gloating over the fact that Bush has "stolen" Hillary's spotlight with his timing in Iraq. "
Hillary's in Iraq? Cool!
Hillary's in Iraq? Cool!
Anonymous
She went to Afghanistan, not Iraq.
... after going through the motions of applauding so as not to be harassed by their command.
I don't doubt the applause and excitement when he walked in was spontaneous. If there were over 600 troops there, and if only 50% support whistleass, the other 50% might get swept up in the excitement of seeing the person who represents the presidency, and applaud.
I have no problem with all of that. These soldiers deserve the respect shown to them. What I'm shocked at is the reaction of conservatives and media here who are calling him 'gutsy' and 'brave' and praising him for going, as if they really had not expected it of him. He seems to engender low expectations in those who support him.
The loving coverage of the exalted one's visit to Baghdad...
IRAQ: No danger.... claims of hostility and lack of resolution in Iraq inflated by media and presidential candidates
+
IRAQ: Infinite danger.... thanks be to God for giving a leader with such large testiscles that he is wiling to risk life and limb to visit the tropps
=
REPUBLICANS - having their turkey and eating it too this Thanksgiving
You fraud. I told here already I am an independent. I have told in past that I am a vegan. I am a muslim who believes in participatory democracy but who does not eat animals. You are not in my league. Face it. You are a slow-witted liberal-hypocrite who thinks the all the worlds problems have answers by you and your kind. You are a footnote, may be not even that.
I'm guessing (as a Muslim) that this guy isn't a Muslim. Usually, our immigrants are smarter than this guy. And we don't feel the need to share our culinary preferences ("I'm a vegan..." who the fuck cares??)
But I wouldn't want to be accused of generalizing as our buddy AKB seems to be so fond of ... maybe there are as many in the Muslim community who bought into the false rationale for the war as there were for any other group. I mean, lots of people can get suckered watching Fox news.
Just none of the Muslims that I know of. But then, the ones I know are pretty educated and can make coher
So Senator Palpatine was applauded by the clone troopers. Woop-dee-doop.
i think it was great that shrub went to baghdad, personally. too bad he came back though.
Quite a stunt to pull just to avoid listening to your father give you any more unwanted advice.
I hope it did help troop morale.
i think it was great that shrub went to baghdad, personally. too bad he came back though.
If not for the repulsiveness of Cheney and the fact that the media whores would outwhore themselves by making him a martyr and thus ensure GOP victory in 2004, I might agree.
Good Lord.... Blitzer is on CNN.
I've never seen him so excited. He can't stop talking like a fired up cokehead. Fearless Leader on the ground in Baghdad is obviously the highlight of his life.
Wolf: How dangerous was this surprise visit?
Guest: Minimal really because of the way they did it
Wolf: OK, but how abou the landing itself, in the dark. Pretty risky, eh?
Guest: No, not really. These people are pros.
Wolf: But having him walking around on the ground in Iraq, it's very perilous isn't it?
Guest: Well, with all the bombs dropping I think most Iraqis were keeping their heads low ands since he was on a base surrounded by the largest army in the world, probably not very.
Wolf: Still, there is a great political risk!
Guest: No, the President is pretty sure to get about 10 points out of this little photo-op. He really couldn't lose doing something like this.
Wolf has saliva dripping from his beard.
I don't remember them making this kind of f
Probably already pointed out, but
1 As a former military enlistee "served" during holiday "meals" by commanders (not POTUS, just local CO) I DON'T CARE. Not protecting me from getting beaten regularly in the barracks weighs more heavily against my leaders than seeing you dole out gruel...
2 When Clinton did it, in Kosovo, he went out and greeted the locals, and they thanked him for liberating them. Hmmm...wonder how many Iraqis...oh, wait, Bush didn't-couldn't-go anywhere near the recently liberated...
I watched his operation flightsuit speech and the shots of the sailors in the crowd were revealing.
During applause gaps, the clapping was not energetic and some crossed arms and frowns. Just my impression.
But of course seeing the president give a speech is well worth a one day delay after being away from home for 9 months.
he was paying by the hour...
"Sounds like just another sock in the codpiece."
Mustang Bobby
---
Sock his codpiece???! I so agree. I would love to hit Bush below the belt. Bam. Bam. Right. Left. Bam. Bam. Right. Left. Bam. Bam.
The difference between Bush and Prince Hal (see Grumpy's post above) is that Prince hal ac tually was there to fight. he didn't cheer the troops and then get the hell out of Agincourt.
Happy T-Day all!
Adam 4-4-2:
I have already stated that --
Liberals = Hypocrites
Conservatives = Racists
But, I have been less hurt by conservatives than liberals. Many immigrants I know have similar experiences.
Ali Karim Bey
I wonder if the soldiers were allowed to bring their guns to dinner or were they forced to leave them in the barracks? Just curious.
But, I have been less hurt by conservatives than liberals. Many immigrants I know have similar experiences.
That's cuz you haven't been paying attention ...
weren't you the one who brought up Patriot Act????
It's a never-ending source of amusement for me that some conservatives think all liberals love the Clintons. I got a Republican friend who's shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, every time I speak disparagingly about the Clinton administration - and I have to because he's always answering critiques of the Bush administration with "Well, Clinton blah blah blah". Funny that...not only can not defend the Bush administration on its own merits, he can't believe someone like me - extremely left-wing progressive - thinks less than glowingly of Clinton.
He also doesn't believe I'm not disappointed that Hillary isn't running this time around. The mind of a conservative is sometimes an entertaining playground, I suppose.
Anyhow, I don't doubt the troops were genuinely glad to see Bush, just as I'm genuinely convinced this was little more than a photo op.
Brendan,
Okay let me give you a "Stephen Glass" treatment. There is a solider who is upset at the POTUS visit. If you had his name, rank, and email access, would you want to call him and spread all over the net about how bad the trip was. That's the liberal-hypocrite way. That's your way. Find some dirt - if you cannot then make one - use Nazi themes (but secretly love all dictators) to describe all GOP - spare no GOP.
I really think y'all should calm down. This event will do nothing for GOP. Take a higher road to ethics and values. May be that is too high for liberal-hypocrites.
Ali Karim Bey
AKB,
Regarding your mythical soldier upset with Junior's visit, didn't that exact sort of thing happen to a Specialist in Iraq a few week's back? He wrote a letter critical of Bush in his hometown newspaper, and a "good American" turned his name into the Dept. Of Defense, getting said soldier drummed out of the military.
How is that a liberal thing to do?
All,
What's up with John F. Kerry? He said he will be DC to fight for the medicare. Then he does not vote. Is that courageous? Well, may be it is not. I heard that he once threw medals of someone else (and not his) to protest the Vietnam War.
Check the link to Mickey Kaus from AndrewSullivan.com to know more about Kerry's courage (or is it last stand)...
Ali Karim Bey
Josh,
NPR reports everyone, including troops were searched. Not clear what they were searched for, but it seems to imply that weapons were left in the barracks.
Bush's 2004 travel plans - Easter in Tehran, July 4 in Damascus, Thanksgiving in Tripoli.
Regarding Bush in Baghdad (for--wow--all of two-and-a-half hours): WHY IS THIS NEWS?
I wonder is Dubya wore his G.I. Joe Underoos for the trip?
FYI: CNN said that the soldiers bush visited in Iraq were housed at Baghdad International Airport.
We were talking about Sen. Clinton earlier -- I just heard (CNN or Newshour? I was switching back and forth) that she will be going to Iraq 'this weekend'. Nothing about where she, and a R.I. senator Reed (DEM?) will stay overnight in Afghanistan, or where they will go in Iraq.
Here's what is important, however: BUSH BEAT HER TO IRAQ!!!! How studly.
The fact that the whores actually seem to be impressed by Dubya's latest childish stunt reminds me of the following from a piece in today's LA Times on "Doctor" Frist:
"Even Democrats concede that to some degree, Frist has made headway. Rep. Elijah E. Cummings (D-Md.), chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, called Frist 'an honest and decent man' and noted that the majority leader had crossed Capitol Hill to meet with him. That, Cummings said, was the first time any senator had walked over to his office."
Why are supposedly mature adults so impressed with meaningless "symbolic" gestures? When do Americans finally grow up?
Okay let me give you a "Stephen Glass" treatment. There is a solider who is upset at the POTUS visit. If you had his name, rank, and email access, would you want to call him and spread all over the net about how bad the trip was. That's the liberal-hypocrite way. That's your way. Find some dirt - if you cannot then make one - use Nazi themes (but secretly love all dictators) to describe all GOP - spare no GOP.
Wait a second ... in just this month alone we've had to endure astroturfing regarding how great the war was going in Iraq (form letter signed by several soldiers and pimped by one soldier's mother) and how small the protest against Bush in London was ("friend in Trafallger Square"). How is it that we're the hypocrites??
Maybe if you say it enough, you'll believe it ...
But I think it's time for AKB's mommy to put his little 12-year-old vegan ass to bed.
"We did not charge hundreds of miles through the heart of Iraq, pay a bitter cost of casualties, defeat a ruthless dictator and liberate 25 million people only to retreat before a band of thugs and assassins."
We? WE??!!! And here I thought Bush had been giving orders from the safety of the Oval Office all this time. It's like Henry V giving his "we happy few, we band of brothers" speech after watching the war on Fox News.
There's a silver lining here: by inviting the press along, Bush absolves us of the responsibility of considering that this might actually be a "sincere" gesture of gratitude for the troops.
weren't you the one who brought up Patriot Act????
Nads | 11.27.03 - 8:05 pm
AKB, why don't you answer this question posed to you upthread?
Streaker:
Nads is a rude person and so I chose to ignore him. Besides I did not bring up the Patriot Act. Check the thread. I just said that Ashcroft is not good, etc. I have no idea what this guy (Nads) is but he has a strange way to be rude.
AKB
I guess I would be more impressed if it wasn't for the fact that Tony Blair made a pre-announced visit to post-war Iraq on May 29th and walked around the City of Basra in broad daylight among the masses of Iraqi's without showing any fear. May 29th was 6 months ago. Wouldn't one expect that Iraq would be more secure now?
Why is it that George had to sneak in and out, while Tony just flew in, hung out, and left in full view of the public eye? Bush looks pretty pathetic when thought of in this context.
This a no more than a photo op for his campaign on the tax payers' dime. I wish I could see it as more, but I simply don't. Once more he uses the "little people" for his political gain and the press will lap it up like it means something. It's very sad.
And George C. no. I'm not hoping for Americans to die. My niece is serving in the middle of the Sunni triangle. Where is your niece serving?
Was President Bush's visit to Baghdad worth the risk?
It's now running about 81% in favor.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/...litzer.reports/
Hozee:
I wish you had not taken the context out from latimes.com story today.
Here is the end of the story as is:
===========================
Even Democrats concede that to some degree, Frist has made headway. Rep. Elijah E. Cummings (D-Md.), chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, called Frist "an honest and decent man" and noted that the majority leader had crossed Capitol Hill to meet with him. That, Cummings said, was the first time any senator had walked over to his office.
Cummings lauded Frist's role in pushing AIDS relief, legislation to eliminate minority health disparities and a just-passed bill to create a new national museum of African American history. But none of that, Cummings said, outweighed his political differences with Frist on Medicare and judicial nominations.
"He basically takes the script from the president and marches with great enthusiasm," Cummings said.
===========================
Now a few things that this story suggests:
1
"Bush Visits Iraq, Thousands of Iraqis Cheer, 'Thank You' From Mass Crowd"
Oops. Guess THAT didn't happen. Unless Chalabi changes his name to Ahmad "Thousands of Iraqis" Chalabi.
Ali, I think that was a rhetorical comment about the Patriot Act, since the P.A. has been used frequently against young Middle Eastern, or Middle Eastern looking, men. Like you. And you're saying that liberals are the ones that have treated you the worst as an immigrant. Many Democrats did vote for the Patriot Act, and now regret it. IIRC, it was given to them only a few hours before the vote and most did not have time to read it. In the aftermath of 9/11, they chose to vote for it.
But the Patriot Act is Ashcroft's baby.
From 11.27.03 - 8:51 pm --
1. Cummings (who like Sheila Jackson-Leigh) acts like a God on TV or a spokesperson for ALL African-Americans. He ain't. She ain't.
2. Cummings does not appreciate the common ground he has with Frist (e.g., museum or AIDS) but the two differences (medicare and judicial) are highlighted. In sum, because of this Frist marches with Bush. Well, may be he does and may be he does not. But, what about the common ground? Quick: Did Daschle have any common ground with House GOP? You will have to make it up.
A sad commentary on trademark insults, canned responses by democrats (aka liberal-hypocrites) on ALL GOP. If all GOP went away, they would have no one to insult now would they?
AKB
Ali Karim Bey:
You are correct. I should have preserved the context in which Cummings' statement appeared -- because it makes the fact that he was impressed by Frist's meaningless gesture even more pathetic.
Does it matter that he lied to the press corps?
Does it matter that he felt he had to the press corps?
..had to lie to the press corps...
Actually he was there for a fundraising dinner.
"I see it's mostly a bunch of fucking scum still posting away here, waiting with hope for more American deaths. What a sad, pathetic group.
George G"
You have to remeber that the Democrats are the first to confess to "loathing" America's men and women in uniform. That the Democrats hatred for American service personnel continues unabated even on Thanksgiving should be of no surprise to anyone. As you have alluded, Democrats will only "give thanks" today if American troops are killed.
Ali, that is such a typical political anecdote you are citing, with Cummings and Frist. Typical. It doesn't mean Democrats are more hypocritical than republicans. A Democrat naturally has those differences with republicans, and vice versa.
It's more hypocritical for Frist to push this new Medicare plan as good for people, when it's obviously most good for HMOs and the drug companies. It was hypocritical for bush to say he was a uniter when he has divided this country, and the world, like it's never been divided before. He campaigned on centrist positions, he's governed on far, far right positions, ramming his policies through, often at the last minute, like the Patriot Act.
Tell us again how liberals are more hypocritical?
Was President Bush's visit to Baghdad worth the risk? Absolutely. In fact, I would encourage the President to make more such trips, preferably in the day, with loud sirens going off all over Bahgdad signaling the arrival of their savior...you know, to give the the "people" of Iraq enough time to get to the airport and arrange a "proper" greeting for their fearless "liberator."
I don't know -- morbid thoughts for sure. But there is something about the thought of a US supplied Stinger missle, smuggled into Iraq from Afghanistan, slamming right into Dubya's ass as the remains of AF1 cascade down to earth in a rainstorm of smoldering metal -- that leads me to enteratin a perfect closure to a debased and cynical war on the very "terrorits" we helped train and arm.
James Radmon Said "...Democrats will only "give thanks" today if American troops are killed.".
Hold that thought, 1 brain cell should be more than enough. Oops.
Seriously, isn't every plane into or out of that airport now a legitimate military target?
Frist also made a mountain of cash himself on this bill, so he ain't exactly Gandhi.
The Defense Authorization bill is MUCH more important than the Medicare bill, as a Democratic party failure.
Restart of the nuke experimentation, causing Russia to immediately state that they have no choice but to reinitiate their own programs;
Open season on whales, dolphin, endangered species, and habitats. Demowhores would rather you talk about Medicare, than the total failure to stop Bx from destroying the environment, and eventually the world.
Gee, Paul. Thanks for those reminders. The Medicare thing was just the latest to happen. Do we have to choose which is the worst?
Was it worth the risk?
A pair of frightening words:
President Cheney.
one commentator on Fox actaully said he "tingled" when Bush made his appearance. My dad and I sitting around flippping back and forth between football and goofball had a good laugh about "tingling".
He flew in late so he would be there waiting for us on thanksgiving morning. How nice... while we're all sitting around watching TV.
As you have alluded, Democrats will only "give thanks" today if American troops are killed.
On the contrary, Mr. Random. Or should I say, Mr.James Random special agent of Her Majesty's Wingnut Brigade.
I think I speak for most when I say your death would suffice for today, if not for a couple of days.
Long live the troops, and a speedy demise to those who keep putting them in harm's way.
Yes, photo-op, etc., but multiple "election" stunts and somersaults. After all the United States is to "give" Iraq "democracy" so Bush is there to make the most of it. Naturally Bush had to meet with Chalabi - particularly to keep him from saying things like this:
From today's NY Times article "U.S. Plan in Iraq to Shift Control Hits Major Snag":
"The view that the United States elections play a major role in shaping Iraq's political future is widely held among council members.
Ahmad Chalabi, another council member, said: "The whole thing was set up so President Bush could come to the airport in October for a ceremony to congratulate the new Iraqi government. When you work backwards from that, you understand the dates the Americans were insisting on." American officials deny that electoral concerns played a role in their planning.
Bully for Bush for doing this. Going himself to the place where he has sent so many others shows at least a smidgeon of personal courage.
Subtract half (or more depending on the level of egregiousness) the bully if he uses the footage in campaign ads, triple the bully if he doesn't.
All that planning, all the logistics, all the secrecy that went into the trip to Baghdad International!
Pity they can't manage a trip to Walter Reed.
[tinfoil hat]How do we know the whole thing wasn't filmed at a hangar at Maguire AFB?[/tinfoil hat]
BTW, Happy Thanksgiving all. Nice that the troops in Baghdad got an extra turkey.
If Bush really cared about the troops he would have done this in broad daylight, stayed for more than two hours, and actually observed the difficult job these brave troops have to do, I would give him his props.
Also, how many funerals has Bush attended? Also, hasn't Bush cut the pay and benefits of the same soldiers he professes to care about?
As for the soldiers clapping, while they truly might be happy Bush is there, remember, soldiers are severely disciplined if they publicly speak out or show any disappoval towards the president, no matter whom that is. They are trained to obey and follow their Commander-In-Chief; if they were observed not giving Bush wild applause, while it would have been a brave act, those soldiers probably would have had their asses handed to them by their superior officers.
Call me cynical, pessimistic and whatnot, but my feeling is that this was a publicity stunt pure and simple. It's video fodder for the RNC convention and Bush re-election comme
tobor, wishing publicly for the President's violent death (along with those of the press and Air Force One crew) is never OK. I don't want to be associated with that kind of crap so do me a favor and STFU, OK?
(continued)
commercials.
And yes, I think Hillary's trip was a a stunt, too. And yes, Rove used Bush to upstage Hillary.
James Radmon says: You have to remeber [sic] that the Democrats are the first to confess to "loathing" America's men and women in uniform.
Never heard of this. Do you have a credible source to back this up? Credible--not Fox News, Limbaugh, or Coulter.
That the Democrats hatred for American service personnel continues unabated even on Thanksgiving should be of no surprise to anyone. As you have alluded, Democrats will only "give thanks" today if American troops are killed.
You operate under the misapprehension that no Democrats in this country SERVE in the military or have family members and loved ones who do, and by doing so you dishonor the memories of members of my family who have died in active duty.
Were you capable of it, you should be ashamed of yourself.
But the Patriot Act is Ashcroft's baby.
Streaker
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=c...&hl=en&ie=UTF-
8
Late Wednesday evening, the House Judiciary Committee voted 36-0 in favor of an anti-terrorism bill crafted by GOP and Democratic leaders but opposed by civil liberties groups.
The Patriot Act's sponsors, House Judiciary chairman James Sensenbrenner (R-Wisconsin) and Rep. John Conyers (D-Michigan), tried to talk committee members out of making additional changes, saying the bill could be reworked in the next few days before the full House voted on it.
I know Graham authored part of it, but who else did?
The question to the one-brain-celled poster is from me.
James R.:
FUCK YOU.
Most of us know somebody who's over there, and I for one opposed this Iraq adventure because I didn't want Americans OR Iraqis killed for no reason. Fuck you again, buddy.
Make like a turkey and get stuffed, motherfucker.
Peace to the rest of you.
And is no one going to say anything about the press keeping the boy king's secret for him?
Gotta protect the king, I guess.
Isn't the only member of Congress to have a son or daughter in the military a Democrat?
Isn't it true that more current Democrats in Congress have served in the military than Republicans?
tobor, wishing publicly for the President's violent death (along with those of the press and Air Force One crew) is never OK. I don't want to be associated with that kind of crap so do me a favor and STFU, OK?
So does that make me half bully in your eyes; or am I, sadly, bereft of bully?
tobor, wishing publicly for the President's violent death (along with those of the press and Air Force One crew) is never OK. I don't want to be associated with that kind of crap so do me a favor and STFU, OK?
Trickster
So someone has finally caught onto the vileness of some posters here?
tobor isn't the only one who has posted disgusting foul ideas here.
Most are accepted and laughed about.
anyone else suspect that the troller isnt really an immigrant from the middle east?
Why do the wingnuts always say we are the ones that want soldiers to die when we are the ones that have fought so hard to keep them out of this debacle?
They are the ones who put them in harms way, they are the ones having them risk their lives for a pack of lies, they are the ones with blood on their hands.
They need to take responsibility for the dead americans soldiers. It is their choices that have lead to thes unnecessary casualties. I for one will not the spin we are somehow responsible. If you listened to us, 500 innocent american soldiers would still be alive, 5000 american soldiers would not have been seriously wounded. These are the consequence of the Republicans immature actions. They need to take ownership of it.
he pulled someting off, today. but what will it mean in a month? this blog is pretty contaminated with reactionaries. all on this day when north americans celebrate the genocide of the native peoples. small wonder.
James Radmon says: You have to remeber [sic] that the Democrats are the first to confess to "loathing" America's men and women in uniform.
Never heard of this. Do you have a credible source to back this up? Credible--not Fox News, Limbaugh, or Coulter.
I'm still waiting for your answer, James. Hello? Still there? Or are you off to your weekly Klan meeting?
Will the troll posting as "pie" what is not pie kindly choke on a drumstick? Or at least piss off?
derek g asks: Why do the wingnuts always say we are the ones that want soldiers to die when we are the ones that have fought so hard to keep them out of this debacle?
IMHO, it's partly guilt and partly that they are unable to come to terms with the abysmal failure of the policies they so rigorously support. They're lashing out. It's much easier to blame others than to examine one's own conscience.
OT, but for people in the Philly area, Y100 is broadcasting a 2-hour Radiohead concert recorded live in London. An excellent antidote for wingnuttery.
Tuesday, April 15, 2003, Tax day and the day "High Noon boy" aka AKB gave up...
So now he freeps here, in spades, possibly because he realizes if I shot him at high noon, maybe "put a bullet right between his head..." in front of what was once the Trade Centres, it would almost certainly be called a "homicide" and an investigation would take place, and undoubtably evidence found, and brought forth, and my conviction for murder would indeed follow, no matter how righteous the cause...
The venomous posts you read here are a direct result of media complicit "ignorance", and the lack of any public investigation regarding the murder of 3000, with nary a breath on the National Commission on the Terrorist attacks, that were pre-planned, and quite possibly, after answering some of
Mindy Klienberg's questions, allowed to occur...
Hence the Reichstag fire\Hitler comparisons... After all it
Bush is a turkey, a big turkey, and he should pardon himself, only he has'nt the moral authority to do so.
Speaking of turkeys, my turkey which is much better than the First Turkey, by a lot, is nearly cooked and I must attend to preparations for the Dinner Company or else she will be less than impressed.
...common knowledge that the
WMD Hunt is > 200 days old, and your fearless leader changes justification to match reality daily...
You fawn for Condolezza as a leader, yet you, and now a growing many others know Bushittes knew EXACTLY what the threat was, but chose not to act, or maybe that was the plan all along??? How are we to know? The event that brings us all to today's expose was treated as an attack, not as a criminal investigation of those responsible for intelligence, and those ultimately charged with using their daily briefs as more than Presidential toilet paper...
See Mr Indy wantabe (OReally clone) the major posters here don't bother to say all that here, takes up to much space, but your flips fraudulent need a bit of lite shown upon them, like someone said above, time for your meds... you little pup who gives real conservative folks a bad name...
I personally don't want Bush to die (Cheney would be a disaster), I just want him not to be re-elected. If there is another "terror event" like Tommy Franks described that shuts down our democratic govenrment, or if there is another round of abuse of the electoral process that casts doubt on the legitimacy of the outcome, my wishes would most likely change.
James Radmon, I'm still waiting for a link to the credible source that says Democrats loath men and women in uniform.
I for one am loath to loathe men and women in uniform.
James Randmon, yoo-hoo, where are you? Confronted with a request to back up your ridiculous statement, you turn tail and run? Bravely, brave Sir James. What a wuss.
I won't give him shit for this. He's like a child playing tag. This stupid touch-n-go has nothing to do with supporting the troops. It's a campaign photo-opportunity. He is as dickless as Bad Anonymous.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 1:25 pm | #
=======
STILL talking about me? I must have really gotten you good.
"Predicted Liberal Spin
BUSH LIED!!! He said he was going to have Thanksgiving in Crawford, Texas.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 2:38 pm | #"
When are you people going to wake up to yourselves?
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 2:41 pm | #
Talking to yourself is better than talking to no one.
johnx | Email | Homepage | 11.27.03 - 2:42 pm | #
=========
I see John got suckered with that one, and still has an obsession with me. Anyone else? Let's keep moving down the thread...
james randmon,
Yes, since all those minorities which join the Army instantly join the GOP. We'd only be happy when our friends and relatives are killed in Iraq.
Listen, you fucking troll halfwit, you don't get a GOP enrollment when you join the military. They don't make you an instant Republican.
We didn't want this fucking atrocity of a war in the first place and we certainly don't want any more dead Americans. I mean, you must be spending your weekends at your local VA hospital, right? Orthopedics ward.
If not, kindly shut the fuck up and go back to watching Fox.
Jeez, you'd think the trolls would be too busy wanking off to all the TV footage of their lord and master in his army jacket. Must be a lot of one-handed typing going on tonite.
Hey, steve, say "fuck" a few more times. Get in the spirit of Thanksgiving.
Maybe he's paying a preemptive visit to our soldiers' funerals.
colorado | 11.27.03 - 12:58 pm | #
ah ha ha hah - what a good one, colorado! I really had a gut laugh with that one
Well, since this thread seems to have been highjacked beyond any salvation, I'm off. I'll check back in the morning to see if James Randmon answered my question. I'm not going to hold my breath.
But, queen, you haven't made enough cliche masturbation references yet. You have a daily quota, right?
High Noon (are you still there Ali?) is over. That was the time BushCo stole the election and started putting the PNAC's plans in action. The future of the world is now at stake. All you conservatives or trolls or whatever better fucking wise up now if you have children or have any other reason to hope there's a tomorrow. If you don't know how desparate Bush, Rove, Cheney, Ashcroft, Perle, Rumsfeld, et al. are for armageddon (THE END OF THE WORLD), you haven't been paying attention. If you really think there will even be an election next year, you'd better get on the train NOW to make sure that BushCo don't kill us all before then. I'm serious. Do you realize that these fuckers don't care about you? The only surprise about Bush's visit to Iraq (or Hollywood) is that he can even continue to pretend that this war isn't more than just a prelude to something more dramatic and final.
George W. Bush is on a mission from God to get us all killed.
Do you hear me? Do you?
Oh, and because of all the free publicity shrub garnered today, I'll be writing another generous check to Ho-Ho. I can see the bats coming out now.
[[Bush, Rove, Cheney, Ashcroft, Perle, Rumsfeld, et al. are for armageddon (THE END OF THE WORLD)]]
The right wing has passed on the tinfoil to the left-wing.
[[Oh, and because of all the free publicity shrub garnered today, I'll be writing another generous check to Ho-Ho.]]
Is that another masturbation reference? You seem to know them all.
We? WE??!!! And here I thought Bush had been giving orders from the safety of the Oval Office all this time. It's like Henry V giving his "we happy few, we band of brothers" speech after watching the war on Fox News.
Except... Bush said he doesn't watch the news.
Anon asks: Is that another masturbation reference?
No, but it gives me a clue to the way your mind works.
One more comment and I'm out of here.
My resolution for the new year: Don't feed the trolls. They're amusing at first, but pay them the slightest bit of attention and they hang on you like a bad case of the flu.
*sigh*
It's amazing to see how an even even like this, which will have little to no long-term effect, can get both "sides" (a silly term -- we're all at different points along a damned long gradient, and we choose to draw a line in the sand and chop us into small portions) bitching and moaning at each other. To all with nothing better than to bitch at someone who disagrees with you, try maturity for a bit, okay?
"You're a racist." "You're a liar." "You're a hypocrite." And you wonder why the House or the Congress can't get anything done? They're the same as the people here, just with bigger budgets!
Bush's act was a decent thing to do. Would have been better if he stayed longer. I still think he's an ass who has screwed my country, but this is not worth the vitriol being spewed here.
Happy Thanksgiving, all. Hope you had more fun than I did watching the football games (time for Brett Favre to retire). Take care of yourself, and each other.
Oh, and BTW, I study Shakespeare, and actually got to act in Henry IV I (as King Henry). Thanks to those who added culture into this "debate"!
[[No, but it gives me a clue to the way your mind works.]]
Here's how one mind works:
"Jeez, you'd think the trolls would be too busy wanking off to all the TV footage of their lord and master in his army jacket. Must be a lot of one-handed typing going on tonite."
Kindly stop projecting your personal perversities onto me.
[[Don't feed the trolls.]]
Do you know what the definition of trolling is? You're doing it right now.
More hypocrisy. So common here.
And one last thing for the moment: Of course the troops would cheer for Bush. Several reasons:
a) He IS the President and Commander-In-Chief (legality of how he got those positions notwithstanding);
b) The shock value alone would make the crowd more receptive;
c) A lot of anti-Bush, anti-Iraq-occupation troops have already quit or retired;
d) They have official orders to support the President, as not doing so would constitue insubordination, resulting in dishonorable discharge.
All pretty solid reasons to me.
Cowardly: sneaking in at the dead of night.
Arrogant: smirking over the microphone, asking the troops "so what's fer dinner?"
Sad: the only uplifting thing to our troops is a quick photo op with the monkey.
put it all together: cowardly, arrogant and sad.
i don't see any positive in this at all -- my first reaction was, you've got to be fucking kidding.
but then i saw the TV, and as far as i know, it's as "real" as most photo ops are these days.
sickening!
Does this mean we can't call him President Bunnypants anymore?
Here's what I'm grateful for this Thanksgiving:
Thank Koresh that Bush only starts wars in ODD-numbered years and not ELECTION years.
The glass truly is half full, n'est-ce pas?
Later,
bcdm, you forgot:
e) prescreening for remaining anti-Bush and anti-occupation "fellow travelers".
As I said before, they couldn't scrounge up more than 600 soldiers for this event. The soldiers were from the 1st Armored and the 82nd Airborne divisions, you know, which have something like 10,000 to 20,000 soldiers in each of them. While I can believe that many of them where doing patrols and other soldierly duties, the number is still quite small for a holiday event.
I wondered what the other 129,400 troops who didn't attended the event did, those not on duty. Probably ate gloopy turkey MREs in the mess, wishing they were back home with their families. I'm pretty sure there happy a select few met with the Dear Leader.
That's got to weigh on his conscience a little bit, don't you think?
He'd need to have a conscience first. This is the same guy who put those troops there on a foreign killing field...for...uhm...what was it again...? Saddam's Weapons Of Mass Destruction? His imminent plans to attack the United States? His involvement in 9-11? Except those were all lies. How much exactly do you think American deaths are weighing on the conscience of a man who started a war on the basis of a pack of lies?
No...they don't figure into his consciousness at all. The nifty background they made for his upcoming campaign ads, yeah. Better then the ones his staff plastered Buckingham Palance with. How good his new ads are going to look was probably weighing very heavily on his mind for those two hours he spent posing for them.
Tranquilizers probably kept him calm on the trip in and out...
Don't know how many were on duty, though, Young Freud...it's theoretical, but highly unlikely, that everyone else was out on patrol or otherwise occupied.
Of course, we'll never know, cause this administration doesn't want the press talking to the soldiers and the press doesn't have the cojones to tell the admin. where to go and how to get there.
Has the American press ever been as ball-less as during this era? Did they forget what their major purpose was, ie. to seek the truth, no matter how hidden?
Well, okay, the whole "Remember the Maine" thing. And WWII. And the attempts by Johnson and Nixon to quell reports from Vietnam (which was successful for a few years, remember).
But haven't they LEARNED yet?
*sigh* I still have faith that they'll snap out of it...someday...
What their major purpose "is", not "was". Let's try that again.
why not faludja? i hear they love us there.
BFD. 2 hours? in the heart of night? what is he? dracula? we need a little sunshine on the chimperor.
brilliant move.
As Johnny Carson used to say "How bad is it?" Things are going so badly for Bush that he has to fly into Iraq, pretend he was more interested in the soldiers than the turkey, and take a few photos.
So true, the truly presidential thing thing would have been to have NO photos, just the news stories, and let's put this to the Clinton test as well. If Clinton flew into Kosovo or Somalia how would he have been treated by the press and the right wing goon squads? Wag the Bush!
Boy you sure can tell when the knuckle dragging mouth breathers have had their fill of turkey and giblets! You would have thought that the pathetic images of Bush wagging the dog and pretending to be brave and caring would have had them hypmotized into next week! Sad. Sick, sick bastards....
" 'That's got to weigh on his conscience a little bit, don't you think?'
He'd need to have a conscience first .. "
Good and very moving entry, Bruce Garrett. Thanks!
Clinton did go to Kosovo.
In fact, he went back just a few months ago, and was hailed by the citizens of Pristina as he drove down a street that bears his name.
Kindly stop projecting your personal perversities onto me.
Why? What else is interesting about you?
"(And, Philly, he lied. You've been shown evidence over and over again, on countless different threads. But by all means, continue your willful stupidity if you like. I don't care that much today.)"
For the millionth time, there is a difference between deliberate lying and being wrong about something. Going with your logic, your beloved France, Germany, Hans Blix, and the UN all "lied" too. Of course this is a waste of time because you've already made up your mind and hey..there's plenty of more Bush hate to go around!
"ALL of the US's politicians were lying. Clinton AND Bush. Your politican's have quite the world reputation for doing so in fact. It's part of everyone else thinks your "democracy" is so damn pathetic..."
That's funny because millions of immigrants scramble to get here (both legally and illegally) every year. Ironic that they'd struggle so hard to come to this "pathetic democracy". Why don't you do me a favor? FOAD (ie Fuck Off And Die)
"So someone has finally caught onto the vileness of some posters here?
tobor isn't the only one who has posted disgusting foul ideas here.
Most are accepted and laughed about."
Pie, I honestly do think the majority of the posters here are intelligent and worth debating with. But I have no doubt that this site has been hijacked by several Indymedia regulars.
"I personally don't want Bush to die (Cheney would be a disaster), I just want him not to be re-elected. "
Apparently some of us are debating whether we want Bush to die. How lovely.
For the millionth time, there is a difference between deliberate lying and being wrong about something. Going with your logic, your beloved France, Germany, Hans Blix, and the UN all "lied" too. Of course this is a waste of time because you've already made up your mind and hey..there's plenty of more Bush hate to go around!
As soon as you demonstrate that Bush's ignorance (which subsequently led to 10,000 Iraqi civilian and 400 US casualties and mounting) is acceptable to you, then I'll start listening to you. Until then, your comparison is dishonest.
Whether or not Bush, Clinton and/or the other countries you mentioned were mistaken, misinformed, or liars for personal gain, Bush has the damning distinction of ACTING on his ignorance to the tune of an unnecessary and unjustified war. Your comparison, therefore, holds no water.
Philly, you are an ass. The "pie" above is a troll and not pie. You're responding to a troll, as a troll. Moron.
You really are the stupidest person I've ever met online. And yet you think you are smart.
You are not.
It's reactionary backlash. Fear breeds hate, hate breeds violence. I fear what Bush will do to me and my country, therefore I hate him. I hate him, so I want him destroyed, along with those who support him. (Note to trolls: this is called an IMPERSONAL "I", used in metaphorical speech -- and I'm ashamed of our species because I need to clarify something like this up front.)It's prevalent on both sides.
My biggest pipe-dream at the moment is that the spontaneous evolution theory proves to be correct, and we evolve over the next few generations to view violence as something to hate and to avoid. Problem now is, you get one wingnut from any side who wants to commit violence, the only answer we have is violence. So we have to stop all violent acts before we can truly move forward. And I'm not going to bet on that happening any time soon...
The above comment was re: Philly G's comment.
Jumped down to the bottom halfway through here --
You know, it really won't matter come, say, April, when the slaughter of our troops is still going on.
Does anyone here really think that, four months from now (as the situtation in Iraq has deteriorated further), anyone's going to lounge back in their armchair and say:
"Oh yeah, that Bush! He was so brave to visit the troops for two hours this Thanksgiving."
Kinda doubt it. Think about the whole flightsuit fiasco -- it's been about six months since then, and even centrists joke about it in a way that belies the falseness of his actions. Six months from now, it'll be May '04, and unless visits to Baghdad become regular things for the Shrub, I can't see how this one lame little photo op is going to count for much of anything more.
It's birdshit on the windshield, folks. While it's streaking across your field of vision, it's impossible not to notice it. But once you get a good washing, you'll forget all about
there is a difference between deliberate lying and being wrong about something.
Yes, there is.
But saying (just for example) "we know where they are" when you don't know any such thing is a lie. You can say you have a high confidence, or a strong belief, or evidence that points to... but it's a far sight from "we know."
The SOTU is likewise dripping with deceit. It was debunked within a week.
you've already made up your mind
I've arrived at an analysis based on the available evidence. Present some evidence for your side and I'll consider it. And waving the "Bush hate" flag around doesn' qualify as evidence.
it.
Was poor Ali offended by my commenting on his juvenile antics???
It bothers me not at all that someone who uses the inspired "liberal/hypocrite" term in EVERY single post thinks I'm being rude to him.
Whatever. I just can't get all worked up about this. Whether the motivations were pure or political, this is the kind of thing Presidents (and other politicians) do. Take advantage of an opportunity to look good. Pure and simple.
This was actually the first time I ever actually thought anything along the lines of "Good job." since this idiot has been in office. Something like this was the least he could do. I actually think it was an admirable move, I'm just sorry he will get far too much political mileage out if it.
Of course, this really isn't the impressive or brave act that it will be portrayed as, either. Flying in unannounced, under cover of darkness, and leaving before anyone knows your there is hardly the stuff of legend.
I honestly don't think he should have left the base or stuck around for a personal Blackhawk tour of the area, it is obviously far too risky.
I just wonder how he'll get to come home and crow about the progress going on there and how great
Therisites, tell me what calling someone a "moron" does to help debate?
I seem to remember seeing other posts from you which seemed intelligent. But what does someone say to something like that?
"Oh, gee, I guess you're right. I'll stop posting now." *shuts down computer*
Or is this just a chance for people to vent frustration anonymously, and I'm just getting in the way with the silly ideas of learning and debate?
Sorry, forgot about the character limit. Above post should have ended with this...
I just wonder how he'll get to come home and crow about the progress going on there and how great everything is in the New Iraq if its too dangerous for him to see for himself.
Oh, I forgot. No one in the media will draw that parallel...
He won't get to crow about shit if there's another big attack on our troops withing the next seven days. I don't wish for anyone to get hurt in Iraq, but with the way that the guerilla attacks have been oh so gradually stepping up pace, Bush won't be saw any notches in his bedpost over this one...
Therisites, tell me what calling someone a "moron" does to help debate
What "debate"? There is no "debate" to be mentioned here. What we have is an administration bent upon a lunatic course of action, and its apologists. And on the other side we have people who aren't crazy.
The ordinary rules of "debate" no longer apply. Pick a side, asshole.
Thersites,
You used to be quite reasonable to speak with. In fact, I valued what you said highly believe it or not, believing you were one of the more knowledgable people here.
Now you're a waste of time. Either you cut the same "with us or against us" crap you claim to hate about Bush, or your future posts will simply be ignored completely.
"Problem now is, you get one wingnut from any side who wants to commit violence, the only answer we have is violence. "
What "wingnut" has declared violence on you? You're living in a dream world.
Bully for Bush for doing this. Going himself to the place where he has sent so many others shows at least a smidgeon of personal courage.
Hell, if you can shuttle me in, in the dead of night with a raft of bodyguards, surround me by a few hundred American soldiers, and then fly me out of there a few hours later, I'd do it, too. And I'm an unrepentant coward when it comes to life-and-death conflict.
Justin Timberlake faced more hostilities and showed more courage opening for AC/DC at a benefit concert in Toronto.
bxdm:
A pretty little podium in Oxford, this ain't.
There's no trophy or plaque to be won here, so I don't see how pretending to be all elevated 'n' shit is going to help anyone on either side. It's not about etiquette anymore.
This is the security and future of stability around the globe we're talking about here -- not who's got better table manners...
Wow. Nice way to simplify the world. And put me down at the same time.
I don't really like your theory. I've got another:
Whole lots of people are ignorant of lots of facts, willingly or unwillingly. We can either assume that they're not willing to hear anything said, and we can go in with the same attitude, or we can try to both teach those who are unwillingly ignorant and get those who are willingly ignorant to pull their heads out of the sand.
But calling me an asshole sure isn't going to change any of the crap going on in the world, and it'll make me less likely to listen to you in the future, as right as you may be.
I think that it's time to choose sides re: what's happening with our administration, too. But taunting those who disagree isn't going to gain support for any movement. Pointing out the lies v. the truth AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN will do it.
Compare Bush's Thanksgiving speech to the troops in Iraq
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...-
2003Nov27.html
with Clinton's Thanksgiving speech to the troops in Kosovo
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/...999-11-
23c.html
BTW I do not remember any liberals getting upset with President Clinton for visiting the troops in Kosovo at Thanksgiving.
MoniCA: I don't want anyone to PRETEND to be elevated. God...I just want people to realize that partisan-bashing on both sides is just silly and pointless. If that's too "elevated", I apologize.
BTW I do not remember any liberals getting upset with President Clinton for visiting the troops in Kosovo at Thanksgiving.
Interesting comparison, considering the Kosovo thing and the Iraq thing have almost nothing at all in common.
I just think that changing the world doesn't require being an asshole. That's stooping to the level of what we mock constantly when the other side does it.
And no, this ain't Oxford. I've noticed that. But I'm willing to bet a lot of smart people visit here only to get met with a load of "fuck off"s when they voice a dissenting opinion. Which is kinda counterproductive, no?
What "wingnut" has declared violence on you? You're living in a dream world.
Philly G | 11.28.03 - 12:42 am | #
Um, Philly G, I never said anyone declared violence on me. I was actually talking about the comments up-stream about doing violence to Bush (which I think is wrong, to clarify even farther)...try not to cut down the arguments that agree with you, okay?
I'm a little late to this thread (been busy eating all day), but what really strikes me about it -
Condi got to go, and Pickles wasn't even told about it.
Forget the photo-op angle. This was about George and Condi getting a little rub-rub time in on AF1.
"BTW I do not remember any liberals getting upset with President Clinton for visiting the troops in Kosovo at Thanksgiving."
The idea that 'Clinton' owns 'liberals' is quite silly. HOW would you know what liberals thought about Kosovo? Did you actually not notice that a lot of LEFTISTS (which may be what you mean by 'liberals') were utterly opposed to the dismantling of Yugoslavia?
Funny thing is that Clinton is a hero in Kosovo; Bx will never be able to stroll the streets of Iraq, because he is hated, and will be hated -- FOREVER. That's what happens when you kill ~50,000 innocent people and then laugh in their faces.
Well, Jaysus, Philly, I am still quite reasonable. However, son, I really think our democracy is at a key crossroads. And you are on the wrong side.
This latest Bush is not the presidency as usual.
You have an illogical prejudice against liberals. If you did not, you would be howling about the novel breaches of protocol that this Medicare's bill's passage occasioned. Do you realize how outrageous it was that admin officials were on the floor before this vote?
I don't think you are stupid, Philly. But by god you act stupid.
Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the vitriole, and Bush is quite possibly my least favorite president, because of a certain amount of arrogance, too much secrecy, and a penchant to fuck with our freedoms, but I have to admit that this move is a masterstroke for the commander-in-chief.
As far as morale, our president deserves praise. Criticize him for everything else, but I'm not sure I see any reason to do so here. Morale starts at the top, and our guys, since we know they're not coming home soon, need all of that they can get to keep their heads up and healthy.
By the way, I know many will hate me for saying this too. Call me a troll, or a blithering idiot. I don't care.
"It gave us a little extra oomph," Spc. Talitha Williams, an Arkansas native assigned to the 1st Armored Division. "Maybe we can get through this."
"It felt good," said Spc. Juan Deloera, also with the 1st Armored Division. "It really boosted my morale."
"It helps a lot knowing that the commander in chief himself is going to come out here and make some of the same sacrifices away from his family, away from his home, to show that he is devoted and in the same position that we are," said Pvt. Patrick McFarland of the 1st Armored Division.
"...get met with a load of "fuck off"s when they voice a dissenting opinion. Which is kinda counterproductive, no?"
When Johnny Reb got his face blown off at close range, he probably found that 'counterproductive,' too. Why would you think people would NOT be angry about having to refight the same victories?
'Counterproductive.' That's a real odd word from someone who's 'dissent' is supportive of the guy who, by sheer dictatorial fiat, just restarted the nuclear arms race.
"That's where your mind is, on home this time of the year, and you think about your loved ones, your friends and things like that, and then you have the leader of our country come here and share dinner with us. It's actually very special," said Sgt. Robert Dunn, a Dallas native with the 1st Armored Division.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Give thanks and praise. And I won't be around to criticize either. Cheers.
I do not remember any liberals getting upset with President Clinton for visiting the troops in Kosovo at Thanksgiving.
So that's where he got the idea!
Figures...
Morale. In war, it's the most important thing. Give credit where credit is due, and then criticize everything else that surely deserves to be criticized.
Bye for now.
"It helps a lot knowing that the commander in chief himself is going to come out here and make some of the same sacrifices away from his family, away from his home, to show that he is devoted and in the same position that we are,"
A-ha-ha-ha. What about this display of ignorant trust in a raging bastard do you find positive? Bx is making a BIG sacrifice; heck, that's what's he's all about. As 10,000 GIs were getting blown out of their socks, the C-in-C gave up SWEETS!
He's fighting right along side our little corporate genocidists.
Compare Bush's Thanksgiving speech to the troops in Iraq with Clinton's Thanksgiving speech to the troops in Kosovo
Right. Now compare the stated purpose of, build up to, and status of those respective fights when the speeches were given. Different situations lead to different reactions.
I'm tired of seeing these, "but Clinton did it, too," arguments. Usually, as in this case, they're wholly without merit. But even when they're right on, they're worthless. The Bush administration made a big deal about having the principles they said Clinton lacked. So what does this argument prove? That Bush is only as good as Clinton? That liberals can be hypocritical?
Everyone's a hypocrite. Big fucking deal. Now try making a logical argument with facts.
From Bush's speech:
"You are defeating the terrorists here in Iraq, so that we don't have to face them in our own country..."
Now I know why he doesn't want to fund homeland security. Jeebus that dude is so wacked!
"Um, Philly G, I never said anyone declared violence on me. I was actually talking about the comments up-stream about doing violence to Bush (which I think is wrong, to clarify even farther)...try not to cut down the arguments that agree with you, okay?"
Agreed. I misinterpreted what you had wrote. my apologies.
"You have an illogical prejudice against liberals. If you did not, you would be howling about the novel breaches of protocol that this Medicare's bill's passage occasioned. Do you realize how outrageous it was that admin officials were on the floor before this vote? "
Thersites, I did oppose this Medicare Bill (albeit for different reasons than you I'm sure). It's yet another 400 billion dollar entitlement from our supposed right-wing extremist President. He seems more and more like a big-spending liberal each and every day.
If I were to vote for him, trust me, it wouldn't be for his domestic agenda which aside from tax cuts has been pretty dismal fro
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
When Johnny Reb got his face blown off at close range, he probably found that 'counterproductive,' too. Why would you think people would NOT be angry about having to refight the same victories?
'Counterproductive.' That's a real odd word from someone who's 'dissent' is supportive of the guy who, by sheer dictatorial fiat, just restarted the nuclear arms race.
First, Paul, I'm wondering how you can equate us sitting in our chairs trying to work out ways to improve this world (or maybe just bitch about the world's present state without making it better) with someone out in a battlefield. The analogy doesn't fly. War is for when words have failed, and even then, words shouldn't stop.
And you want dissent? I've been doing as much as I can, considering I'm up in Canada for the next 2 years or so. But if you think that by being civil and open-minded supports Bush, I'm very afraid. I just don't feel the need to insult and berate in order to get my jollies, as
Shit. Cut off. The rest:
...I've seen happen time and again on here.
And don't worry. I'm not always a pleasant guy when I have to explain a point in which I firmly believe AGAIN AND AGAIN to someone who is being willfully and deliberately obtuse. But I also don't make "fuck you" my default answer.
Dissent I've been doing a LOT of. But insults aren't the same as dissent. Is that not as clear-cut as I see it?
from a strictly conservative sense. The new Medicare Bill is yet another huge entitlement program from an increasingly large government. You won. Fiscal conservatives lost. Go celebrate or something.
It's all good, Philly G.
To vaguely jump back on topic for a moment: Would it have been impossible to have stayed for a while in Iraq? Kept the cat in the bag for a bit longer? At least then, it wouldn't have looked so much like a photo-op as an actual visit...
"A-ha-ha-ha. What about this display of ignorant trust in a raging bastard do you find positive? Bx is making a BIG sacrifice; heck, that's what's he's all about. As 10,000 GIs were getting blown out of their socks, the C-in-C gave up SWEETS!
He's fighting right along side our little corporate genocidists."
Btw, Paul is the perfect example of your typical Indymedia regular for those not aware. I realize he is considered a fringe leftist even here, so let's keep it that way.
Philly re: Medicare
Yes, fiscal conservatives lost, but "we" lost too. Grover Norquist won. When the bill for this crap comes due and there's no money and congress is completely one-party idealogues who haven taken pledges to never, ever, ever raise taxes under any circumstances, what will happen to this and every other existing social program? What, cut the military instead?
And Philly G, the Medicare bill does have short-term gains, yes, from a liberal standpoint.
But it's also the beginning of privatization, which hasn't exactly worked wonders for government programs in the past.
Extra coverage is good, yes. But the future penalty's just not worth the present gain.
As usual, TBogg nails it:
(Bush's quick visit is) a sign to the Iraqis that he had to sneak in under cover of darkness and slip out again two and a half hours later from a country that is far from being under control. And, lo and behold, Karl Rove was able to release the well-timed footage to the people who are sitting in front of the tube watching the Macy's parade or NFL football, which might explain why the soldiers had to wait an hour without explanation.
The upside is that he gets to knock two and half hours off the time he owes for going AWOL in the National Guard.
"To vaguely jump back on topic for a moment: Would it have been impossible to have stayed for a while in Iraq? Kept the cat in the bag for a bit longer? At least then, it wouldn't have looked so much like a photo-op as an actual visit..."
No doubt it's partly a photo op but as I said before, his visit was never mentioned in public. It literally was a surprise. And according to Drudge, a lot of media members are actually mad at Bush for NOT allowing them to come along. So he could have really made this a HUGE media glitz and glamor event, but he chose not to. At least credit him for that.
Btw, I'm hating this sudden cut offs for posts. What's going on here?
Well, I'm certain he didn't make this a huge publicity thing more due to paranoia than anything else. It ain't that safe over there, dont'cha know...
Thanksgave? Check out the real Bx and his real campaign:
http://www.angelfire.com/creep/g...h/
remindus.html
Paul, is Indymedia getting repetitive or something?
Go play with your friends there.
I apologize for being ignorant about this Indymedia thing. Aren't all media blame-America-first leftist footsoldiers for Al-Quaeda (with the exception of F*x)?
Haloscan is imposing a very short cutoff--it's their glitch; it's been bitched about on many forums.
Philly, knuckleknob, it's not the what, it's the how that is so frightening re: the Medicare bill.
is Indymedia getting repetitive or something?
Public service announcement: whenever Philly says "Indymedia," you should properly read it as, "I have no logical argument to refute what you have said."
Okay, enlighten me, I missed this memo.
"Indymedia"? Wass is das, hein?
Much as I am looking to see Shrub out the door in 2K4, his going to Baghdad only proves that even an evil scumbag like Dubya can do the right thing on occasion. Now if he'd only deign to show at a military funeral or three...
Philly G., you remind me of a drunk in a bar, practically falling off the barstool, in the pathetic way you just have to have the last word at EVERY SINGLE POST you disagree with.
Except that I somehow doubt you're old enough to drink. Or understand the concept of irony.
It's been a long day of trolling. Punch your time card and head off to bed.
George G., you fucking troll:
Lick my sweaty ball sack.
"Public service announcement: whenever Philly says "Indymedia," you should properly read it as, "I have no logical argument to refute what you have said.""
Seraphiel,
are you going to claim with a straight face that Indymedia is a legitimate news source?
Hey look! We attacked the UN building in Iraq apparently!
http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire...80360/
index.php
Or hey! Did you know that the Mossad was behind the 9/11 attacks?!? That's right, it was our ally Israel that attacked us!
The reason that I don't refute this stuff is because you literally can't refute bullshit.
So it's like you said, Seraphiel.
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/n...03/10/
77947.php
Anonymous:
Is there anyway that we could kindly arrange for you to slit your wrists and take a warm bath?
Please let us know.
By the way . . . Happy Thanksgiving.
Here's more fun from Indymedia:
http://www.indypgh.org/news/2003...03/11/
10106.php
Would you like me to keep going?
Indymedia regulars should be ignored. They are not real people.
Um, Philly, nobody here pays attention to Indymedia, whatever that is...
you do, apparently. What is it?
Okay, I read some of the indymedia stuff. Not enough to actually comment on it yet, though.
I think I'm calling it a night. It appears I'm not going to find much more than childish name-calling here tonight...
Hope all had a great Turkey Day.
Philly ... until YOU start answering the questions here with something other than "Clinton thought so, too" I can't be certain that YOU are a real person.
... but possibly a prototype GOP sim??
"Hope all had a great Turkey Day."
Good night. Same to you bcdm.
Oh, and BTW, thank you Philly G for not just going to 4th-grade tactics when everyone else was.
I may disagree with you, but it's nice to know that civility isn't dead in Blogland.
"Philly ... until YOU start answering the questions here with something other than "Clinton thought so, too" I can't be certain that YOU are a real person.
... but possibly a prototype GOP sim??"
Look my point is the following. I'll acknowledge that we aren't likely to find WMD's in Iraq and that hence Bush got bad intelligence and was wrong about them. However, once again this is different than out and out deliberate lying, which the Left has constantly suggested.
I am merely stating a fact: If Bush "lied", then so did Clinton, Gore, France, Germany, Hans Blix, and the UN.
So either Bush lied and so did they, or they were all wrong due to faulty intelligence. That's for you to determine.
Is it me, or are threads getting increasingly petty lately?
http://tinyurl.com/wusp
When is the legitimate press going to tell this WH to f*ck off already? It isn't news if you play along with their game. It's propaganda. Faux News has prior notice something was going to happen and gets to bring the camera crew? NO WONDER THAT PUTZ, DAVID ASMAN WAS SLIDING OFF HIS CHAIR!
It was just before 4 p.m. in Texas. A little more than four hours later, Mr. Allen and several other journalists were seated aboard Air Force One and flying toward Washington. By 9:35 a.m. Eastern time the next day, the journalists, including writers from The Associated Press, Bloomberg News and Reuters, as well as a camera crew from Fox News and photographers from several wire services, would touch down with the president in Iraq. The outside world — including in many cases, bosses and families — would not learn of their journey until after they were on their way back home.
To Philip Taubman, the Washington bureau chief of The New York Times, that briefing appeare
Bush's MO is to do a photo op (which is on page one), and then throw them to the wolves (which gets one paragraph on page 60).
This feels like a token visit, a band aid to cover Bush's weak support of our troops, but I so hope I'm wrong. Our guys in uniform don't deserve that.
I am merely stating a fact: If Bush "lied", then so did Clinton, Gore, France, Germany, Hans Blix, and the UN. So either Bush lied and so did they, or they were all wrong due to faulty intelligence. That's for you to determine.
OK ... let's go with this ...
How is it that everyone else on that list was AGAINST a unilateral US attempt to oust Saddam. I mean, if all of them believed Saddam had WMDs, why didn't they want our cowboy to go in and just take him out?
Was it possibly because ...
1) There were better ways to prove that saddam was already contained, and either had NO WMDs or was essentially unable to use them (ie, continue inspections)
2) There were better ways to contain him, period, regardless of WMD status (ie, what Clinton was already doing)
3) Form alliances with the neighboring countries and support THEIR effort to oust Saddam, so that US and Euro presence would be minimal, and local effort would be responsible for helping Iraq ... of cour
son of a bitch ...
3) Form alliances with the neighboring countries and support THEIR effort to oust Saddam, so that US and Euro presence would be minimal, and local effort would be responsible for helping Iraq ... of course Halliburton would lose the oil contracts
4) The blatant mishandling of intel, the obvious profiteering by Bush cronies, the shameful shifting of rationale for this war, the exploitation of saddam's cruelty while simultaneously ignoring the US role in making this Frankenstein ... all this suggested that maybe the US wasn't the nation that should be nation-building Iraq??
5) The US's ass-poor history of nation building, especially in this region of the world?
6) I could go on, but Haloscan would probably cut me off again.
Seraphiel,
are you going to claim with a straight face that Indymedia is a legitimate news source?
Having never been there (and having no desire to see it) I can't comment on that question.
But I notice that any time a left-leaning person makes a comment you can't address in any sensible way, you accuse them of being an Indymedia fan. That would be like me accusing you of being an LGF or Racist Rottweiler type just because you've used words like "moonbat" before.
Look my point is the following. I'll acknowledge that we aren't likely to find WMD's in Iraq and that hence Bush got bad intelligence and was wrong about them. However, once again this is different than out and out deliberate lying, which the Left has constantly suggested.
First: your acknowledgment that the WMD stuff was hooey means that the entire "preemptive" justification was BS.
Second, what we have is a LOT of evidence that the WMD stuff was always nonsense.
"Oh, and BTW, thank you Philly G for not just going to 4th-grade tactics when everyone else was. I may disagree with you, but it's nice to know that civility isn't dead in Blogland.
bcdm"
What is the value of 'civility' with a racist? Your average modern racist, like Philly G, thinks NOTHING of killing innocent foreigners with massive military force. They're FUCKING PROUD of it! You'll never hear Philly G discussing how morally wrong it is to kill the innocent for the crimes of another. He's a moral retard, like most of his Klan, who treat genocide like a matter of politics alone.
Your civility is really only of value in the context of other philosophical non-racists on these blogs. Racists don't do 'windows.' Civility is complicity, when it comes to them, and that's a lesson well learned of late.
I'm no Bush guy, but I think what he did was totally cool. Nice job Mr. President.
http://www.edthibodeau.com/
nonpl...tally_cool.html
George Bush goes there only after Hillary Clinton, to save face, and he regurgitates one of his campaign speeches. Again, very controlled audience. Very hurried affair, definitely to not be upstaged by Hillary. But he was, wasn't he? She beat him there.
Okay, it's not the first time I've asked for an explanation of a term here, so, what is a "troll"?
Earlier on Thanksgiving Day (turkey in oven, but much work to do before family and guests arrrive), while surfing the news, I see that Bush has made a Surprise, "Secret" visit to Iraq. My immediate reaction was, well, finally, he has done something kind. (But part of me was wondering, how much did this cost us taxpayers in dollars, and is this going to turn out to be another "Mission Accomplished" photo-op?)
After dinner, and lots of the dishes are cleaned up, and the tv news is on, it turns out W was there for 2½ hours or so. And I thought WTF. And he's wearing some "real" soldier's army jacket!
It seems he met with some of the "important" Americans there, Bremer, Sanchez. And the troops he "met" with (I'm sure they were screened, don't you?) said that W's visit was a morale booster for them. He didn't get too far from the airport.
At that, one of my rema
Duh,
...At that(tv viewing), one of my remaining guests said, well of course he didn't want to stay there long, they hate him there.
And atrios has another interesting link regarding the personal and the political on T-Day.
I don't know. The dude can't get to a funeral, but he can get to Iraq on Turkey day? Which would be kinder? Which would be more respectful of our troops? Which doesn't seem like a jag-off photo op.
Visiting troops- good.
Not visiting memorial services for troops killed in his 'war of choice'-bad/scumbag.
However, once again this is different than out and out deliberate lying, which the Left has constantly suggested.
It's not merely a matter of repeating bad information. It's becoming increasingly clear that the administration rigged the process to access information that met their needs and to ignore information that challenged their preconceptions. If this is really how it went down, then the administration's actions are certainly deliberately dishonest. Now it's only a matter of whether they believed their own lies or not.
I suspect, given their hubris, that they really believed what they were saying. But that doesn't make it okay. And that doesn't mean it was just a mistake. An honest liar is a liar all the same.
I saw this while sitting next to my grandfather, veteran of three wars, and the word immediately out of my mouth were "Hmm. Be nice if he attended a few soldier's funerals, even if it is more pleasant to eat turkey with the live ones."
I think the trouble with this visit is that it's the only act he's taken, and by itself it looks cowardly and craven. If he'd been attending soldier's funerals (as previous Presidents have) and touring Baghdad with Wolfowitz, the popping over for a quick photo-op and cheer-up visit for the soldiers who are stationed there would not be so much of a problem. That would be a spoonful of sugar to go along with the bitter pill. But if you leave out the bitter pill, all you have is a placebo.
Hillary has far more balls than he ever will.
I saw this while sitting next to my grandfather, veteran of three wars, and the word immediately out of my mouth were "Hmm. Be nice if he attended a few soldier's funerals, even if it is more pleasant to eat turkey with the live ones."
I think the trouble with this visit is that it's the only act he's taken, and by itself it looks cowardly and craven. If he'd been attending soldier's funerals (as previous Presidents have) and touring Baghdad with Wolfowitz, the popping over for a quick photo-op and cheer-up visit for the soldiers who are stationed there would not be so much of a problem. That would be a spoonful of sugar to go along with the bitter pill. But if you leave out the bitter pill, all you have is a placebo.
Hillary has far more balls than he ever will.
Look, Bush can't go to a funeral because how does he choose one and then does he then have to go to them all becaus if he goes to one and then stops going to them it brings forth even more criticism. It would be a mistake to go to a funeral and I wouldn't suggest a Democratic President do it either.
Going back to Walter-Reed is a different story. Disgracefull how few visits the adminstration makes to the VA hospitals.
He should have stayed there and fought along with them if he wants to keep this war going.
National Military Family Association
2500 North Van Dorn Street, Suite 102
Alexandria, VA 22302
703-931-6632
http://www.nmfa.org/
Disabled American Veterans
3725 Alexandria Pike
Cold Spring, KY 41076
859-441-7300
http://www.dav.org/
Paralyzed Veterans of America
801 Eighteenth Street, NW
Washington, DC 20006-3517
800-424-8200
http://www.pva.org/
Veterans of Foreign Wars of the U.S.
406 West 34th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64111
816-756-3390
http://www.vfw.org/
USO Of Metro DC
www.usometrodc.org/
Army Emergency Relief
200 Stovall Street
Alexandria, VA 22332
703-428-0000
www.aerhq.org
Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society
NMCRS
4015 Wilson Boulevard
10th Floor
Arlington, VA 22203
703-696-4906
www.nmcrs.org
The Air Force Aid Society Inc
Suite 202
1745 Jefferson Davis Highway
Arlington, VA 22202
www.afas.org
Coast Guard Mutual Assistance Inc
4200 Wilson Blvd Suite 610
Arlington, VA 22203-1804
800-881-2462
202-493-6622
w
The Democrats have pretty much made minced meat out of his "Mission Accomplished" fiasco on the aircraft carrier. Rove needed new footage for campaign ads. What better than this to fool the people in America into thinking that this bubba really is in charge?
Somebody upthread stated that this trip was paid for by Bush-Cheney04. Where did that information come from? I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the media.
I worry about the troops. I worry that they will become disillusioned and angry later on when they discover the full, and rather pathetic, story of Bush's 2 1/2 hours in Iraq. Some commander-in-chief. Flies in, brings reporters and photographers, gives a speech, gets right back on the plane, leaves the country. So much for troop morale.
So, do we now start to count troop deaths as pre vs. post Bush visit to Iraq?
Suomynona, you are some kind of a sick sunovabitch!
You don't worry about the troops!
You worry about the best way to sabotage their morale. You seek the most negative spin you can put upon the very best news.
You are some kind of sick puppy, Suomynona!
Suomynona, you feckless sick turd, do you relish your self-appointed job marshalling US troop death counts? Can we count on you to count each and every casualty? Good for you, you senseless ingrate. Your security and freedom, and that of your family and friends, is some kind of fucking game to you, I guess.
I worry about the troops. I worry that they will become disillusioned and angry later on when they discover the full, and rather pathetic, story of Bush's 2 1/2 hours in Iraq. Some commander-in-chief. Flies in, brings reporters and photographers, gives a speech, gets right back on the plane, leaves the country. So much for troop morale.
So, do we now start to count troop deaths as pre vs. post Bush visit to Iraq?
Kaffir:
First, the name is astoundingly offensive. But you knew that. What's the goal? Being racist without being caught? I don't get it.
Second, our security is not a game. But our security is not being enhanced by what we're doing in Iraq. So while we're in there, I'm going to damned well know who was killed so that our President could advance an ajenda that has nothing to do with our well-being and security.
bcdm, who is astoundingly offended by the name "Kaffir?" and why?
I intend to identify with the USA, against the enemies of the USA.
As far as I know, "Kaffir" means the "unbeliever," the "infidel."
I do not believe in the death-cult Islamist "we crave death more than you love life" creed. Are you offended?
As we might say in Engrish land. . . A troll is you. . .
That may be a meaning for Kaffir, I don't know.
But Kaffir is also an Afrikaans word, roughly comparable to "nigger".
Must see if I can find that other meaning. Good to learn something new every day.
Now look at what sickpuppy Suomynona wrote: "I worry about the troops. I worry that they will become disillusioned and angry later on when they discover the full, and rather pathetic, story of Bush's 2 1/2 hours in Iraq. Some commander-in-chief. Flies in, brings reporters and photographers, gives a speech, gets right back on the plane, leaves the country. So much for troop morale."
Fact is, Suomynona is looking for reasons to demoralize the troops! Read his shit, and tell me I'm wrong!
bcdm, you will NEVER find me calling people by the "N-word."
One of your lib buddies, David E., loves to call people by that "N-word" name. Take it up with him.
I'm not Akfrikaans, I'm an American in flyover country. I admit to trying to find some Steen or Stellenboch at the wine vendor today.
Now, bcdm, tell me how Suomynona helped military morale today.
Now that I know that the word has another meaning, I apologize for the fact that I got hiffy over your name. But you can see why something like that would happen, no?
As for military morale, there is a difference between supporting the military, which I believe Suomynona does (and I know I do), and supporting the decisions of the head of the military (in this case, Bush).
I care enough about our soldiers that I do not want to put them in danger unless absolutely necessary. And we were lied to by our President to make us believe it was absolutely necessary. And like it or not, it was a lie. This was not just bad information. This was stuff known to be false, that was still told to the American public.
The point is this. No one here is desecrating the job that the soldiers are doing (except for those who really do their job poorly -- remember the four Canadians we killed?), but we are arguing that Bush was wrong to have sent them there. You don't have to believe that Bush ne
Shit, cut off again. The rest:
...[ne]ver makes wrong choices to believe that our fighting men and women are good people. And I will remember every one of them who falls over there, cause their stories are getting buried. That's the point.
(Oh, and I'm not Afrikaans either. But it's one of those words that is known outside its native language, like so many other English words.)
OK, bcdm, you made your case well.
I'll try to be equally respectful towards you.
Thanks!
Much obliged. Respect is rare in the blogosphere. It's very easy to be an ass in anonymous settings.
I don't think that W lied about the Iraq threat.
Just about every assessment of Iraq capabilities, no matter where sourced, indicated strategic threats.
There is no disputing that the Saddam Baathist regime was brutal. On top of that, most lefties claimed that the sanctions against the regime were killing 500,000 innocents per year.
I do believe that Iraq is better off without SH in power. I do believe that Iraq is going to benefit from coalition rebuilding programs.
I'm proud of the work that coalition soldiers are doing in Iraq, and I'm quite peeved at folks who try to use coalition casualty counts as some kind of political thermometer, and who confuse their hatred of W with the genuine anti-terror mission that's been thrust upon us.
Good post Kaffir. But look at this, from the front page of the British newspaper 'The Independent':
'...Some Iraqis were unimpressed. "To hell with Bush," said Mohammed al-Jabouri. "He is another Mongol in a line of invaders who have destroyed Iraq."'
It's not just the morale of the _troops_ in Iraq that needs improvement, and it's not just the numbers of casualties which indicate the problems the US is facing over there.
Of course life is better now that Saddam isn't in power anymore.
Except one detail.
More Iraqis are dying, on average, every day now in Iraq than were during Saddam's reign.
And I don't know if it's going to get better any time soon. And that disturbs me immensely.
Murderous tyrants I'm all in favor of deposing. But this has been, and continues to be, bungled so badly, I can't accept the consequences of our actions. War has to be the last option, and we didn't even come close to exhausting our options.
I'm sure there are many Iraqis who are dissatisfied with the war's outcome:
There are the Baathist Party members, some millions, about ten percent of the population.
There are those who endured family and friends as fatalities and casualties.
There are those who lost assets, fortunes, businesses.
In spite of these genuine losses and grievances, I still believe that, net, Iraq is better off without the Hussein family in charge. And I believe that the rest of the world is better off without the H family to contend with in the decades to come.
Most of all, I'd point out that our attention needs to be focused on what's next, not what's past. What can we do, together, right and left, to make the best outcome?
As I've said, I think we all agree that Iraq's better off without Saddam (despite what people on here say about each other).
But we've got to learn from the past as well as work towards a solution to this problem.
So that's a good question you ask: what can we do to make this better? We stay, our men and women get killed in guerilla attacks. We leave, civil war probably ensues.
What's left? Splitting the country in three?
The large number of posts on this thread is one indicator of the political impact of this trip. Whatever your opinion of the war or the President,this Thanksgiving trip to Baghdad was brilliant politics. (Did the Bush Campaign hire Bill Clinton?)
Bush cannot go to a funeral for one simple reason...the resulting photos would uncontrolled. They can't stage manage the family members, control the attendence, write and post edit the script, put up a banner behind him, and worse of all the coffin would be photographed in the same frame as him thus creating a direct link between HIS decision to go to war (and was HIS ALONE) for what now are 100% certified false reasons (no WMD, no 9/11 link).
For the image makers the airport as low risk compared with the Crawford Ranch story.
I'm glad he went. Now he won't look so foolish when he pretends to be an expert on what life in Iraq is really like.
After his 120 minutes interacting with the troops, media, and kitchen staff he's as uninformed as ever on the subject. But knowing that he's actually BEEN there might make it less revolting the next time he tries to spin the story.
One of the UK papers titled it "The Turkey Has Landed".
I love this place.
Nathaniel: That was 'The Independent', and in fact the article with that headline was the one I quoted the last few words of to Kaffir a few posts ago.
Alternet.org has published an interesting article comparing the merits of the turkey and the eagle as American symbols.
Well, W has made one small, tentative step towards redemption by admitting that he misled the public about his Iraqi trip. One hopes that he can find the courage to confess to the countless other lies he's told since he seized control of his office.
"In spite of these genuine losses and grievances, I still believe that, net, Iraq is better off without the Hussein family in charge. --Kaffir"
Well, that's the miracle of human rights, pig -- you don't get to make those kinds of decisions! That's acting like people are potatoes to be regrettably harvested to feed corrupt pigs in Washington. Killing possibly 50,000 totally innocent people in order to change their government is morally a fatal crime. It is genocide.
You are disgusting, Kaffir. What a goddamned Nazi.
"But we've got to learn from the past as well as work towards a solution to this problem. "
You appear to have no idea how parochial and condescending the whole idea is. Do you really, really think that the Iraqis are unable to manage their own society? Why does what the Iraqis do have ANYTHING to do with what 'we've' got to learn?
There is no past to this decision of PNAC. It is not a personal sin of mine or anyone I know. It is a diseased, corrupt, and genocidal action.
Proper responses ('learning from the past')?
Nuremberg sound familiar to you, bcdm? Some hangings would really improve the world situation, and I'm sure help things in the Middle East immeasurably. Give the people SOME JUSTICE, instead of the genocidal lip-service.
I do believe that Iraq is better off without SH in power. I do believe that Iraq is going to benefit from coalition rebuilding programs.
I believe it is a good thing SH is overthrown and I hope Iraq will benefit from the rebuilding programs. We in Europe benefitted greatly from the Marshall-plan and I sincerely hope the same will happen in Iraq. I do not even mind if US companies reap some of the profits, but the looting of the National Museums and various non-oil related Ministries makes me a bit cynical about the priorities of the coalition forces.
I think Bush's visiting of Iraq was a decent thing to do, regardless of his intentions. As a president he did his job and ultimately that is what counts. Whether we like it or not propaganda is and always has been an essential part of warfare. Maybe that is why "Kaffir" is being called a Nazi?
I take my defense of "Kaffir" back, I just read some of his posts. Calling someone a "turd" is not helping the discussion either.
In spite of these genuine losses and grievances, I still believe that, net, Iraq is better off without the Hussein family in charge. And I believe that the rest of the world is better off without the H family to contend with in the decades to come.
Kaffir | 11.28.03 - 6:23 am | #
I have to take issue with this. There is no way that this claim is legitimate...yet. We hear this argument a lot, that liberals wanted Saddam to stay in power, wanted him to kill more Iraqis, blah, blah, blah. I don't think that was Kaffir's intent here, but it's cut from the same cloth. For all any of us know, Chalabi will get his hands on the Iraqis and they could be in for some serious economic suffering, or worse. This war was planned as a vengeful crusade of the willing in retribution for 9/11 and little else (eg, where is/was the occupation plan?). I'm afraid this war will go very seriously wrong in the long run.
"...visiting iraq was a decent thing to do..."
Are you eating downers, or what is it? How can a person with NO mandate, who lied to his country about the risk (both ways), and killed several tens of thousands of >b>INNOCENT people, many of them the very moderates who would STOP TERRORISM, do a decent thing?
His 'decent' thing would be to turn himself and his co-conspirators over to the Hague. He could resign. He could blow the whistle on his whole gang.
He could admit he's a Nazi. Because his actions PROVE it.
It's the BLOOD, stupid.
Very apropos that the Bush marketing team, paid by checks cut from the US treasury, held this dog-and-pony show under a large tent. The only thing missing was the large banner: "Bush Touch-and-Go Circus".
We need to all move forward to protect our troops and make Iraq safer. This will be difficult since George W. Bush, warrior-president, refuses to admit that mistakes were made in planning the aftermath of the war. Now, with troop levels which are unsustainable, yet at the same time too low to do the job, none of the many countries that Bush snubbed will help us out. A little mea culpa from Bush could change this, but he is too arrogant to admit mistakes. Meanwhile, more troops die, Al Quaeda and the Taliban regroup in Afghanistan, and Shiite fundamentalism gains strength in Iraq. Mission Accomplished!
"I'm proud of the work that coalition soldiers are doing in Iraq,"
And this is also execrable! What an ignoramus you are, bdsm. HOW do you know what they are doing? Getting a good flow of facts, are you?
Are you unaware of the fact that the CIA has its own standing military? Are you unaware that this is the largest hiring of mercenaries in the history of this country?
Are you unaware that there is torture, rape, political murder, cultural destruction, the tearing out of orchards, the killing of donkeys, the stealing of individual wealth going on over there?
Wow,
Glad I was out and missed this thread. But I would like to add something to it. First, for all the romantic trolls on this board (like Kaffir) who still believe that only "bad" Iraqis could be against us and all "good" Iraqis love us and what we are doing. I think you *could* be right at one point in time along the continuum of our conquest/liberation of Iraq, but you will *not* be right if transfer of power and true liberation takes much longer, or takes a form not acceptable to most Iraqis. And, given the history of the country (from the Mongols on up) they have every reason to be sceptical of our plans, intentions, and abilities. If they are sceptical, its not going to help us, or them. So the chief target for BUsh in helping our troops is not only their own morale, but the Iraqi morale and the Iraqi sense that he's not in it for the photo-op, he's not in it just to get re-elected, and he's not in it for our own troops but he's also in it for them. Did he have th
OH, darn, lost half my very interesting post.
I think the rest said this
did he have the guts or the foresight to meet with the Iraqi governing council (who are risking their lives to work with us?), with the British commanders?, any aid workers, any famous or important political or religious figures? Did he have the courage to tour any of the sites we keep hearing we're fixing up?
I agree it would have been "too dangerous" for him and I definitely do not want harm to come to him for any reason, or in any way. But if it is too dangerous, why does the WH insist that the press cover only rosy scenarios? why are we being lied to about our progress over there? ok, rhetorical question.
I had lots more to say but I"ll only point people to Arthur Silber's very important piece rebutting the Lilek's "they should be fucking grateful to us" (oh horrors, a conservative using the word fuck!) piece. Silber makes some really important points about political history and how it sh
This war was planned as a vengeful crusade of the willing in retribution for 9/11 and little else (eg, where is/was the occupation plan?). I'm afraid this war will go very seriously wrong in the long run.
I think you are right to a degree. It is just part of the puzzle however. If you look at the entire middle eastern picture in relation to the rest of world prior to our invasion of Iraq, two things stand out: the ME is a source for two things that are important to the US and its allies - oil and terrorism. It is not that we want to confiscate Iraqi oil it is that we, along with the rest of world, need a stable supply of oil. Without it our economies go into a deep worldwide depression. Unstable Iraq/Saddam was a real threat to this oil supply in the short and long term. Secondly, Iraq was a player in the terrorism game. To take it out had two benefits: remove a support for regional/international terrorism and to send a wake-up call to other sources of support for t
shapes Iraqi understandings of what we say we are doing in Iraqi. His point is that political history affects Iraqi perceptions of what we are doing, and that those perceptions are not "false" they just come from a different world reality than the comfortable troll reality in which we get to believe what we want when we want it.
Letterman nailed it:
President Bush flew into Baghdad to have Thanksgiving dinner with the troops (Applause)
It was a thousand dollars a plate...
By no means "novel," moebious. AS the WashPost points out: "There is nothing novel about presidential visits to war zones at holiday time. Bill Clinton went to Kosovo for Thanksgiving in 1999, Lyndon B. Johnson went to Vietnam for Christmas in 1967, and President-elect Dwight D. Eisenhower visited Korean battle fronts in 1952. Richard M. Nixon also traveled to Vietnam, in 1969."
But it nonetheless a masterful PR stunt. Damn you, Karl Rove!!
Are you eating downers, or what is it?
No, I am not eating downers and I am not an idiot. The fact is the troops ARE there and they did not make the decision themselves. Bush is the supreme commander of the army and therefore it is his duty to show support for his soldiers. It is that simple.
Alan Bisbort, Hartford Advocate:
What has the "pro-war" side done to support the troops?
For starters, the president "politicized" their deaths by dressing up like a soldier and landing on an aircraft festooned with "Mission Accomplished" banner that was created by his own staff. Then, when the deaths continued and he was criticized for this publicity stunt, the little man in the flight suit blamed the soldiers for the banner.
And while he waves a flag, Bush hasn't attended a single military funeral or visited the wounded in any military hospital since his war began. He has also blocked a pay raise for those troops in the combat zone, and cut benefits to the Veterans Administration.
And he has, in his most unforgivable politicizing gesture, taunted the Iraqis to "bring it on" at a point in the conflict when such language would knowingly lead to more deaths of our troops.
Were Bush really a soldier, he would be court-martial
I would like for one person who was for this war to acknowledge that thousands of innocent Iraqis have died in this war as a result.
Please acknowledge these deaths!!!!!!
(How come these people never do???)
And then we can have a discussion on whether the deaths of these people were worth getting rid of SH.
From: http://rushlimbaughtomy.blogspot.com/
“The President did not have to sneak in and out of a war zone 4 years ago.
Four years ago this week the President of the United States flew into a war zone in broad daylight and had Thanksgiving Dinner with the troops. This year our President had to sneak into the Baghdad Airport under cover of darkness and remain in a heavily guarded military compound without allowing any coverage until he was 10,000 feet above Baghdad on his way home. The big difference is that Clinton was warmly received by a large contingent of troops in Kosovo, but more importantly was also warmly received by the natives prior to the event, who thanked him for their liberation.”
You have to remeber [sic] that the Democrats are the first to confess to "loathing" America's men and women in uniform...
james randmon | 11.27.03 - 9:09 pm |
Never heard of this. Do you have a credible source to back this up? Credible--not Fox News, Limbaugh, or Coulter.
Anonymous | 11.27.03 - 9:50 pm |
I posed this question 12 hours ago (although forgot to sign off on it). I'm still waiting for an answer.
One thing is abundandtly clear from Bush's midnight raid into Bagdhad. That is that either he is a coward or a liar. If the security situation in Bagdhad is so bad that he had to drop in unanounced with his lights off and only stay for a couple of hours, they have been lying to us for months about this. Why didn't he go and help open one of those schools we keep hering about?
And if the security in Bagdhad is really OK, then our boy president behaved like a complete and total coward. So tell me trolls, which is it? Is your guy a liar or a coward?
Rove used Bush to upstage Hillary.
SG | 11.27.03 - 9:48 pm
Do you think it's because she's a woman, a leading Democrat, or simply because her surname is Clinton?
**************************
For the millionth time, there is a difference between deliberate lying and being wrong about something. Going with your logic, your beloved France, Germany, Hans Blix, and the UN all "lied" too.
Please tell us something obvious next time. BUT, big "but", did any of these act on their lies and start, or advocate starting, a preemptive war?
**************************
I do not remember any liberals getting upset with President Clinton for visiting the troops in Kosovo at Thanksgiving. Dennis Slater
Dennis, please enlighten us. I remember Clinton's trip to Kosovo, but not the details. Did he fly in under cover of immense secrecy (bush did not even tell his mom/pop, and evidently Laura didn't know all the details [see Yahoo news])? Did he only
Philly G: He [Bush] seems more and more like a big-spending liberal each and every day.
Except, you jerk, liberals' programs help the people they're intended for, not, in this case, the drug companies and/or HMOs.
Kaffir
Offensive
A Xhosa.
often kaffir Used especially in southern Africa as a disparaging term for a Black person.
Kafir A Nuristani.
also kaffir Islam An infidel.
Unlike the 'n' word, the word has three definitions, two with upper-case K, one with lower-case. One means sorghum, I think. The third I don't remember. But this usage is the only one I was familiar with, from the days of apartheid in S.A.
If the timeline given upthread is correct, it means these troops had their big thanksgiving celebration early in the morning --- maybe 10 a.m. Not as bad as delaying the landing of the big ship for a day. Just a thought.
Btw, Paul is the perfect example of your typical Indymedia regular for those not aware. I realize he is considered a fringe leftist even here, so let's keep it that way.
Philly G
Phil, I could without your unsolicited reviews of Paul.
http://www.angelfire.com/creep/g...dus.html\">link
Also, there is nothing wrong with Indymedia. Its a great idea and should be embraced by everyone.
Paul, is Indymedia getting repetitive or something?
Go play with your friends there.
Philly G
Paul, stay here. Ignore Phil's rude request.
Most of all, I'd point out that our attention needs to be focused on what's next, not what's past. What can we do, together, right and left, to make the best outcome?
Kaffir
Hmm. Spewing insults?
This war was planned as a vengeful crusade of the willing in retribution for 9/11 and little else (eg, where is/was the occupation plan?)
This war was sold to the US public so easily because it was an excuse to kill some brown people after 9/11. This blinded most of them from the profiteering and PNAC agenda angles ... assuming they would have cared about those. Now that the body count is rising, they care a little bit more about the subtleties regarding the legitimacy of the war.
So, yeah, that's why I personally am using the death toll as a "barometer" of some kind. And before you get all huffy about the 400 or so US dead, at least do me the courtesy of a reach-around and admit that 10,000 Iraqi civilians have died ... please ...
If you look at the entire middle eastern picture in relation to the rest of world prior to our invasion of Iraq, two things stand out: the ME is a source for two things that are important to the US and its allies - oil and terrorism. It is not that we want to confiscate Iraqi oil it is that we, along with the rest of world, need a stable supply of oil. Without it our economies go into a deep worldwide depression. Unstable Iraq/Saddam was a real threat to this oil supply in the short and long term. Secondly, Iraq was a player in the terrorism game.
You, sir, are making a poor case for war.
By this logic, the US should have been invaded countless times for its various (and well known) roles as supporter of terrorists (al Qaeda), supporter of dictator (Saddam, Karamazov), supporter of institutional racism (apartheid), supporter of violent insurrections (Latin America).
By this logic, Kissinger, MacNamara, Reagan, Nixon, Ollie North, and both Geaorge Bush's would have been
"I'm proud of the work that coalition soldiers are doing in Iraq,"
And this is also execrable! What an ignoramus you are, bdsm. HOW do you know what they are doing? Getting a good flow of facts, are you?...
Paul | 11.28.03 - 8:41 am | #
a few points here.
First, spell my nick properly, please.
Second, I'm not unaware of those facts. Because if you'd bothered to pay attention, you'll notice that THAT QUOTE YOU ATTRIBUTED TO ME ISN'T MINE. Care to be a little less sloppy in the future?
What I said was that I will praise or criticize the soldiers on their own merits, not on what they've been ordered to do by their superior officers.
Hope you're getting something out of just repeating "Bush is a Nazi" again and again and again. Cause you're making yourself look rather stupid in the process.
You appear to have no idea how parochial and condescending the whole idea is. Do you really, really think that the Iraqis are unable to manage their own society? Why does what the Iraqis do have ANYTHING to do with what 'we've' got to learn?
Ooh, missed this comment until just now.
Perhaps I'm not making myself clear, or you're just deliberately misreading what I say. Whatever.
Here's the point. We're in there now. No matter how wrong it was for us to go in there in the first place, that is where we are.
And I'm wondering how you can be just fine with us waltzing right out of there, after we bombed the place to bits and shattered the government structure. This is what you're saying, yes? Pull out now? Consequences be damned?
For a raging leftie, that seems damned heartless...
Check out Bill Moyers on DemocracyNow! today.
Very good speech on the media.
"Journalist Bill Moyers recently gave the keynote address before 2,000 people at the first ever National Conference on Media Reform. He warned, "What we’re talking about is nothing less than rescuing a democracy that is so polarized it is in danger of being paralyzed and pulverized. Alarming words, I know. But the realities we face should trigger alarms. Free and responsible government by popular consent just can't exist without an informed public."
Bill Moyers, host of the weekly PBS news program "Now with Bill Moyers", speaking at the National Confernence on Media Reform in Madison, Wisc."
For more about the effect of media on democracy see Amy Goodman's "Independent Media in a Time of
bdcm: I'm wondering how you can be just fine with us waltzing right out of there, after we bombed the place to bits and shattered the government structure.
Let's keep in mind that our troops our "targets". Keeping us down to reality, 2 troops have been killed since BushCo's Turkey Photo Shoot. When our troops get attacked, they fight back like hell, and spray hot lead in all directions, female Iraqi's get red spots and drop dead, kids get ripped limb from limb, and the situation worsens. We are wearing out our welcome.
And to be candid, the troops will come back to a broken Veterans Administration, and the less troops with PTSD, the better.
Our troops are no social organizations, their a military and one
Our troops are no social organization, they're a military and one hell of a blunt wide deadly force. The Iraqi's must be free to govern themselves. They must be free to choose the euro over the dollar if they so choose. They must be free to control the resources of the land of their birth, and they must be free to reject the united states military occupation. I would expect you demand no less of your own town.
Damn text length limitations...
There's also the "kaffir lime," the Thai wild lime. I have one growing in my back yard, and you use the leaves in soup in Thai cooking the way Europeans use bay leaves.
I hadn't know the Afrikaans term, only the Islamic sense. Given the conflict, I took it in that context.
Though it is a pretty pretentious little handle.
You appear to have no idea how parochial and condescending the whole idea is. Do you really, really think that the Iraqis are unable to manage their own society? Why does what the Iraqis do have ANYTHING to do with what 'we've' got to learn?
This meme is tiring. The onus should be on whether the Iraqis can manage their own society, and in a way that harmonizes with the international order.
Look at what the Iraqi people have been doing up to now. Giving fealty to strong men. There's no reason to believe they can manage their own society, especially without experience doing so without a hammer poised over their head.
To allow for more modern institutions, security will need to be established, until and which time the people of Iraq can come up with a constitution and means of rule that will really embody the Iraqi people, and not just the fortunate ones that control the exercise of violence.
Operation Iraqi Liberation!
Better meme?
"US troops have allegedly shot dead two young Iraqi sisters near Baqubah, north of Baghdad. Iraqi police and family members say American troops shot the 12-year-old and 15-year-old as they were collecting wood from a field. The older girl died on the spot and her sister died later of her wounds. A policeman claims that US forces handed one of the girls' bodies over to the police "arguing that she had a gun in her possession". Police searched the family home but found nothing suspicious. Coalition forces in Iraq are investigating claims, but have declined to make further comment."
Story here.
Oh yeah, the parents and their friends are so gonna love us...
This meme is tiring. The onus should be on whether the Iraqis can manage their own society, and in a way that harmonizes with the international order.
Look at what the Iraqi people have been doing up to now. Giving fealty to strong men. There's no reason to believe they can manage their own society, especially without experience doing so without a hammer poised over their head.
Perhaps if the west (like Reagan and Bush) hadn't been supporting said strongmen like Saddam (and Chalabi for all we know), the Iraqis would have had a decent shot at managing their own affairs.
As stated, your sentence seems pretty condescending because it doesn't account for these facts.
"The onus should be on whether the (Americans) can manage their own society, and in a way that harmonizes with the international order.
"Look at what the (American) people have been doing up to now. Giving fealty to strong men. There's no reason to believe they can manage their own (corporations), especially without (Warcrimes laws in effect).
"To allow for more modern institutions, (sovereignty) will need to be (re)established, until and which time the people of (America) can come up with a (government that honors the) constitution and means of rule that will really embody the (American) people, and not just the fortunate ones that control the exercise of violence.
freelixir "
My gosh, what a truckload of comments. I saw the "Live Special News Report" about George W. visiting the troops in Iraq while I was cooking yesterday, and my immediate, not-very-politically savvy thought was, "the polls must be going way down."
The visit wasn't too secret to have press there giving full coverage of the cutesy, 'is there any more senior' stuff, then George W. stands up.
Humph.
And that was before I read that his plane stopped to pick up an order of reporters to go. Kinda detracted from claims of caring about the troops and just wanting to cheer them up.
I wanted to see what y'all had to say about it. Very interesting comments.
p.s. dissent is not unpatriotic. Our country's founding pricinciples rested on the right to dissent. Just a reminder.
Pat,
I'll go you one further. Dissent is not just permitted, it's the very basis of our freedom. The American Revolution was fought on the assumption that power corrupts, and that governments cannot be trusted. Without the many generations of anti-authoritarian hellraisers in our history, we'd be slaves. Distrusting the government, challenging its lies, and saying "Hell, no!" is the most patriotic thing you can do. Not EVEN in wartime, but ESPECIALLY in wartime.
The official national ideology these days seems to be that the main threat to our liberty is foreign enemies, the main source of our liberties is the government, and all wars are fought by definition to "defend our freedom." Bullshit on all three counts. To hear the neocons talk, you'd have to wonder who the Bill of Rights was framed to protect us AGAINST.
Liberals, do NOT make fun of our CiC. Or I will hunt you down. You laugh now, but when Plan X goes into effect, we will be laughing at your decaying, traitorous bodies strung up from your driveway basketball nets......
Thanks, Kevin. The tendency to hurl accusations of "unpatriotic" or "treasonous" at anyone who disagrees with the government is nothing new, but it sure seems to be on the increase and reaching into other spheres of life, too -- the ultra-conservatives in the church have the same tendency.
If we don't stand up for our right to disagree, we'll soon have the Thought Police knocking on our door...or the secret police hauling us out of our homes at 3 a.m. We'd be fools to think it can't happen here.
Kevin Murphy, you have quite an attractive homepage.
Oh, it will. And you liberals will deserve it.
Plan X! Can't wait for it! I'm ready, just give me the signal!
Why didn't FOX show us Our supreme leader's codpiece? We loved him in May.
Gotta run and snack on some giblets.
sincerely,
"Liberals do NOT make fun of our CiC."
That wouldn't be my experience.
Clown in Codpiece.
Corporations in Control.
Constant in Cowardice.
Cretin in Crown
FBNP!
The Fly By Night President.
Use it often, make it stick.
Good use of the bully pulpit to raise morale for the troops out there and those of us who support the war at home. You can tell it was a good idea by both the positive and the negative reactions it gets and who makes them.
Yours,
Wince
Paul, we agree on more than you know, but you really are a piece of work. Do you really care about the Iraqi peoples? If you did, you would realize that only the people of America can put pressure on our government, along with the peoples of Iraq, in order to make sure the right thing is done over there (and not with your flavor of divisive rhetoric).
The people of America do need to stand up, and make sure that we do not compound our errors and the number of deaths caused in Iraq by doing something truly stupid now (i.e. immediate withdrawal).
We need to demand that our leadership take the interests of the Iraqi people in mind, now that we've demolished it and created a power vaccuum, and though we need to bear close counsel to ayotollah sistani, we also need to push back and assure democratic institutions.
If we leave it as is, there is nothing to assure the dignity of the individual Iraqi, i.e. the rule of law, as a counterforce to these self-righteous clerics declaring
...these self-righteous clerics declaring how everyone should think and act.
This counterforce is what allows you to speak your mind in this thread, about how you feel we are already a tyranny, but the real tyranny was in Iraq, where Saddam would not have allowed this discussion, and if you can't see that than there's no use speaking with you.
Only by ensuring transparency and accountability, worldwide, in and between every country, will we assure our security and prosperity in this great age of destructive technology.
That is the only way that liberalism will survive. Liberalism in the sense of the inalienable rights of human beings, respected without qualification.
Here and elsewhere, this regime of transparency and accountability, of the freedom of information, must be put in place. For the people. For the peoples.
Unfortunately, this is least likely to happen in an Islamic theocratic authoritarian state, for reasons that are obvious.
We need to prove that it can happen here in America, and between free states. This is the biggest political idea we have to confront ever. Or it WILL be the rule of elites, in the face of insecurity human beings are not built to face.
"...these self-righteous clerics declaring how everyone should think and act."
A-ha-ha-ha! You ought to get out more.
What about "SEVEN COUNTRIES IN FIVE YEARS" don't you understand?
I am amazed that apparently reasoning people don't add up the ACTUAL statements by these murderous clowns. A year ago they floated the idea of a Genome Bomb that would only kill certain races. A Racism Bomb! And they say they are developing it.
Smells like a Nazi, IS a Nazi, until proven otherwise, by ACTIONS. In Bx's case, the only way he could prove that is to surrender himself to an International Court, because he is a rogue war criminal.
Dealing with that is FAR more important than what happens in Iraq, but that's all you fellow-clowns of his (his audience) will pay attention to. Look at the little birdy!
Meanwhile, Bx is systematically destroying the Republic, its allies, its social justice, its morality, and its democracy, including the vote his five pals crapped all over.
Tony Bliar had some kind of a heart attack and some kind of a severe GI tract pain for which he was hospitalized after Bx's visit, during which Bx dumped a trade war in his lap, demanded to fly an armed Blackhawk over Buckingham Palace and the right to kill anyone in the country without any repercussions. And Tony Bliar just about cakked out.
I don't like the guy or his politics, and he should also stand in the gallows for his war crimes. But doesn't the fact that Bx is nearly killing his only allies give you any pause in your idol worship, you stupid fuck?
"What is the value of 'civility' with a racist? Your average modern racist, like Philly G, thinks NOTHING of killing innocent foreigners with massive military force. They're FUCKING PROUD of it! You'll never hear Philly G discussing how morally wrong it is to kill the innocent for the crimes of another. He's a moral retard, like most of his Klan, who treat genocide like a matter of politics alone.
Your civility is really only of value in the context of other philosophical non-racists on these blogs. Racists don't do 'windows.' Civility is complicity, when it comes to them, and that's a lesson well learned of late."
Paul, arguing with you is like arguining with a trained chimpanzee. Except the chimpanzee is slightly amusing since...well since it's a chimpanzee.
Please return to Indymedia from whence you came.
"I am amazed that apparently reasoning people don't add up the ACTUAL statements by these murderous clowns. A year ago they floated the idea of a Genome Bomb that would only kill certain races. A Racism Bomb! And they say they are developing it."
Ironically such nonsense was reported first by Indymedia. It appears I was right about our looney-toon friend Paul after all.
Paul - people like you need to stay in Indymedia. You scare the children away when you leave.
Paul - people like you need to stay in Indymedia. You scare the children away when you leave. Philly G
Phil, Indymedia is independent media, not anything wrong with that, I'd say independent media a democratic principle. Perhaps a necessity for a democracy.
heck out Bill Moyers on DemocracyNow! today.
Very good speech on the media.
"Journalist Bill Moyers recently gave the keynote address before 2,000 people at the first ever National Conference on Media Reform. He warned, "What we’re talking about is nothing less than rescuing a democracy that is so polarized it is in danger of being paralyzed and pulverized. Alarming words, I know. But the realities we face should trigger alarms. Free and responsible government by popular consent just can't exist without an informed public."
""Your average modern racist, like Philly G, thinks NOTHING of killing innocent foreigners with massive military force.""
"Paul, arguing with you is like arguining with a trained chimpanzee. Except the chimpanzee is slightly amusing since...well since it's a chimpanzee.--Philly G"
We're not 'arguing,' you raving brownshirt, we're defining. You don't deny the definition, so what is the point of arguing. I've met LOTS of racists, especially in the last three years, so I recognize them pretty good.
Back in the 60s they were harder to recognize, because there was so much intolerance. But these days the intolerance is far less, and the racists STICK OUT, you shitbird.
There's been a lot of talk about the importance of morale in this thread, but consider this: a blatantly contrived visit/photo-op can't make up for slashing benefits & pay for the troops.
Figuring out time zones has always confused me. Should I believe Wayne Madsen when he wrote yesterday in Counterpunch that Bush arrived in Baghdad at 5;20 A.M. Baghdad time? A.M.??.... that the soldiers were ordered out of bed before the crack of dawn to eat turkey and dressing, cranberry sauce, pumpkin pie and gravy? Why? Was this more Thanksgiving breakfast than Thanksgiving Dinner? Why? Did it have anything to do with newscycles in the U.S. media? If this is true why hasn't anybody mentioned it? I guess times zones aren't the only things I find confusing about this whole exercise.
"Back in the 60s they were harder to recognize, because there was so much intolerance. But these days the intolerance is far less, and the racists STICK OUT, you shitbird."
Paul, here's a definition for you:
You are a whackjob lunatic. You are the typical 60's hippie who probably never baths and eats tofu for lunch and dinner. You are shunned by 99 percent of the population.
No, that's not a definition, that's just more of your contentless bigotry. Admit you're a racist, and then at least you won't be a hypocrite any more.
Wow. The Battle of the Fringes carries on days after the first post...although it seems to have descended just a wee bit from actual on-point conversation.
Still waiting for that apology for mis-attributing that quote to me, Paul...but hey, it's not like I'm holding my breath waiting for you to admit you were wrong or anything.
Paul, like I said, you're a piece of work. The way you engage in discussion will earn you about 15 allies out of every 100,000.
Keep it up. And don't even think for a minute that I've got any idols that you would love to criticize.
That was me. Twilight of the Idols. Reader Ernest Becker. Denial of Death. Escape From Evil. The Birth And Death Of Meaning.
Freelixir reporting...out.
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