I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Angels in America is a weird play for me. On the one hand, I respect what Kushner is trying to do theatrically. He's going for the epic and the magically real. And I think that's wonderful.
But I also think that one of the play's defficiences is that the play is so bound up with its time. As a person who can't remember the Reagen Administration or has ever known a time where AIDS hasn't been a human epidemic, I do not understand much of the "anger" and "outrage" that is in the play. A lot of it seems just too much.
I wonder if this is just me however.
It was an epidemic - not one that affected the entire population, but one that affected the entire population of gay men. It was being ignored.
I also think that one of the play's defficiences is that the play is so bound up with its time.
It's called "history." Read about it sometime; you might not make the same mistakes...
I reread both installments of Angels last winter. For some reason, the times we're in today feel similar to those days. True, people aren't dying in the same numbers the were then. (Thanks to whatever scientists and deities are responsible for that fact.) But, we have an administration whose attitude toward AIDS isn't all that different. Their entire approach to prevention is based on "just say no" abstinence education (with its flat-out lies about condom efficacy). They are attacking prevention programs for men who have sex with men. Treatment programs, especially for those with low incomes, are being cut. The vaunted money for Africa has been slow (to say the least) in coming from the admin. Much of the rage has gone away, but I can't help but feel pessimistic about the current state of affairs with this admin
Oh yes, I understand that.
Let me explain further, the way I see it is that Kushner's play is in a long history of "plague" stories in Western Civilization. You can go back as far as Thucydides, or grail myth, or as recently as Camus. The natural order of things is upset. A plague is released. And until the natural order of things comes back together the plague will stay. Plague stories deal with how individual human beings deal with that system.
At least that's what I thought the Angels were trying to do. Put back the natural order of things. But here the hero refuses the call.
But also, as you point out, this was an epidemic largely ignored because of societal and cultural implications. And I'm wondering if one could ever see it for its literary and theatrical underpinnings or whether it will always be confined to its time period--and if the play as a whole loses something for it.
And when later readers, who are not as familiar with the pressing need to act read it
it is a pandemic of an incurable, fatal and contagaious disease. it was then a disease that as far as most people knew affected only gay men. and no one did anything about it. it just grew and grew and grew...and if gay men died...so what...
that was the attitude. and many people still have that attitude. the fundamentalists exalted in it and dared to call it GOD'S will...punishment for their behavior. the curtain has not gone down yet on this play.
OT: Dean and Clark have scheduled a joint announcement Sunday in Virginia. What's the deal? Joining forces?
I saw Part I back in the 90's when it was on Broadway. Blew me away. Probably only Breaking The Code with Derek Jacobi as Alan Turing has ever had a greater impact on me, as far as Broadway plays go. It reminded me forcefully how exotic life in these United States is, and how unremittingly we ignore it. The Roy Cohn parts are particullarly affecting in this regard. I'm really looking forward to it.
Baker, I could only hope that's true. That's a team that might be unbeatable.
A pissed-Off Doc/ExGov and a 4*General/Rhodes Scholar?
Priceless...
Angels is about all of us. I saw it in LA and NYC (LA was far, far better), and it's the most passionate roller-coaster ride you'll ever take. Roy Cohen is pure evil and pure energy, you hate the evil and love the energy. Joe Pitt is pure ignorance and pure uncertainty. You hate the ignorance and you love the uncertainty. Walter Prior is pure disease and pure prophet. You hate the disease and love the prophet. What you learn, no, what you feel deep in your bones, is that evil & energy, ignorance & uncertainty, diesease & prophecy are all of a piece and they live in each of us. And make us human. More life! indeed. It's the best theater you'll ever see.
Hey Arthur -- we must have gone to the same performance of "Angels in America" here in L.A.!
I saw the whole thing in one day, too. Great, great stuff. I'm sure the movie is lovely.
AIDS hasn't gone away. It's here now more than ever. But the "mainstream" finds it easier to talk about in terms of the pandemic in Africa. They don't want to talk about infection rates rising in Americ atall. They don't want to talk about condoms of safe sex either.
I'm 56 years-old and HIV-.
I can't really describe what it's like to watch 3/4 of your best friends die. Plus countless other invaluable people you never knew.
But why pay any attention to me? The AIDS crisis is over.
Sully and Dan Savage say so, and they MUST be right.
Atrios, I'll tape it for you.
For a lot of closeted gay Mormons, Angels in America_ is still very real. For all Americans, it's important to understand how the loathing of a Joe Pitt can turn into crap like the Defense of Marriage Acts being pushed all over the USA.
David Ehrenstein,
Sorry for your staggering losses, and glad to know you are HIV-.
In relation to Mirele's comment, my aunt is an MD who used to work in eastern WA and ID. She had stories dealing with closeted LDS men who contracted HIV from anonymous encounters and sometimes passed it on to family members. The culture of denial that exists around this topic is truly killing people. There was an amazing, and heartbreaking, episode of POV, The Smith Family, that dealt with the topic. One of the dangers here is a repeat of the innocent/deserving victim dichotomy that was so prevalent during the 80s (Ryan White=innocent, gay men=deserving). The crisis is far from over, despite what Sully and Savage might say. The complacency we're witnessing with regard to the domestic issue is also quite dangerous.
Atrios - where is a screening DVD available?
Tena,
From an obliging TV critic.
Probably all over the usual file-sharing networks, too.
Obviously, there will be no "official" DVD release from HBO until after the miniseries has aired.
Thad - thanks for that - I didn't see how there could be anything available.
I was just thinking about a Christmas gift for Atrios. Since I'm not a critic, and not particularly technologically gifted, I guess I'll have to think of another.
I can't really describe what it's like to watch 3/4 of your best friends die.
I remember visiting the Quilt on its first showing on the mall. Two friends were very sick with it at the time, and they would later die, as would others I knew. I remember looking at the birth years on the panels as I walked past, noticing that a lot of them were closely bracketing my own, feeling like life had turned into some nightmarish WWI battlefield scene, were gas and machine guns were mowing down people all around you, and you were somehow walking through it all still alive, and you were grateful to be alive, and deeply disturbed by the terrible randomness of it all...
I still remember I got back then from an old friend who was living in New York, about the steady erosion of his circle of friends as they vanished, one by one. He did hospice volunteer work, too, so it wasn't just his friends; it's like the whole world was disappearing around him, leaving behind a city of ghosts and tourists.
True, people aren't dying in the same numbers the were then.
This comment just beggars belief. Did you miss World Aids Day? (It was 1 Dec, last week).
Sub-Saharan Africa had 2.3m deaths from the disease in 2003, an entire continent is being destabilised. Infection rates are growing fast in former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc countries, and some countries in Latin America are tipping the crucial 5% infection rate (to say nothing of the disaster zone that is Haiti).
The three people I have know die from AIDS were all white European women (one French, two Spanish). This is a world problem, it affects EVERYONE.
A beautiful, wonderful man I know, one of the few of whom I would describe as "saintly," died from complications associated with AIDS. He was partnered for over 20 years, and when others began to die from the disease, I thought that would protect him.
He didn't tell anyone beyond his partner and immediate circle that his cancer was AIDS-related until a few months before he died.
I had always wondered how anyone could heap blame on someone for contracting an illness... until I found myself so angry at my friend that I almost couldn't speak to him once he told me, because what I thought couldn't happen was now coming to pass, and I would be cheated out of the years of a friendship that I had hoped would last long after we both had gone grey. Worst of all, I realized my anger was precisely the thing he had feared and was why he didn't tell me sooner. The need to honor our friendship by giving me the chance to say "goodbye," I think, was the only thing that may have overcome his fear. And I marvel at that kind of courage.
But I still get angry that he died when I thought he would be spared by reason of his life situation and common sense. And I still hate my self for being angry with him, even years after he died.
I haven't seen "Angels" yet, and since I don't have cable I will have to wait until it comes out on DVD. If Kushner manages to capture half the layers of emotion surrounding this plague, I hope it will help me to understand something about what my friend went through.
True, people aren't dying in the same numbers the were then
This comment just beggars belief. Did you miss World Aids Day? (It was 1 Dec, last week).
No, I didn't miss World AIDS Day. I was actually quite disappointed in the minimal media coverage it received. I was referring to deaths in this country, and how the decrease in them has led to a sense of complacency. World wide it's much worse than it was when Angels was in Broadway. As someone above noted, though, it's not viewed as being quite so immediate because it's "those people over there." People in this country are not surrounded by as much death as immediately as they were then. While AIDS is still a large killer in this country (still #1 among African-American men 25-44) it's not among the top 3 or 4 overall killers in the country like it was at that time. The meds developed have kept people alive and healthier for longer. The public perception is that it's no longer the crisis it was. Believe me, I'm not trying to minimize it (I think my posts make that clear).
AIDS around the world. Just weep for them all, they are your brothers and sisters. "Angels" helps you do that. I'm 61, HIV+, have lived with the lethal sucker for over 18 years now, and back in the mid 80's I watched 2/3 of my friends die. I have no idea why I'm still alive. But here I am. And I will watch, and you must watch, because "Angels" will hurt as much and help heal as much as it did when I first saw it on the stage in LA eleven years ago.
I'm probably going to get my gay membership card revoked, but I was really disappointed with Angels when I saw the second full Los Angeles production. Part 1 was good, but I thought Part 2 was mediocre or worst. The "Oldest Living Bolshevik" scene in Part 2 still stands as the most excruciating thing I've sat through in a theatre. And those political rants by Louis! Lawdy! It got to the point that that I was flinching every time the character came on the stage. I think the work is horribly bloated and padded and think that there's a good 3-hour play in there somewhere.
Never seen it...is the whole thing similar to the quotes that Newsweek published? Does anyone here subscribe to Newsweek?
I still remember I got back then from an old friend who was living in New York[....]
That should, of course, read "I still remember a letter I got back then from an old friend who was living in New York," etc., etc.
Don't know how that happened, but I'm sure the Little Freep Goofballs would claim it was all Clinton's fault.
I've lost lots of friends to AIDS, one of them used to have a job babysitting his boss, a high executive at NBC. Being upwardly mobile and in the right wing media, he loved Reagan, we had lots of fights about politcs. He could have been a charecter in Angles In America. Then when AIDS hit New York and he saw the results of Republican indifference and hate politcs he woke up. Unfortunately it was too late.
With all of the irresponsible images of sex on TV we still don't have condom commercials or a campaign to encourage their use. This is after twenty years of diddling over the issue. The Catholic Church is instituting a campaign of lies to keep people from using them, flaky neo-platonism trumps reason and charity in JP II's Vatican. George Weigle, the pope's official biographer, was carrying thier bog-water in his column last week. The fundies, friends of Rupert the pornographer, are as much to blame for this.
World wide things are getting worse and worse if Bush carries the day expect many fold growth in AIDS infections in the coming years.
In the United States infection rates are rising again. The response is about as sensible as the reaction to the plague in the 14th century.
I'm HIV negative and glad to hear that David E is too, I'd hate to lose his voice. Hope everyone is careful.
Really good, thanx for the heads up...
I saw the play(s) in S.F. along with friends and family (some positive, some negative), and the response was universal...
Long, Difficult, Astounding, Infuriating, yet ultimately rewarding and life affirming.
Angels is truly one of the great plays of this time. I am sure that time and distance will not dampen the impact or message.
Has Andrew Sullivan ever said that the AIDS crisis is over? He is HIV-positive, so that's an assertion that I doubt.
I'm waiting until tomorrow to watch Part I on HBO2. I don't know if too many Sleater-Kinney fans read Atrios, but there was a film on Sundance at the same time starring their guitarist Carrie Brownstein. Tony Kushner may be one of my favorite playwrights, but he better, uh, "step aside" for anything SK-related.
He did indeed say that the AIDS crisis is over. Back when he was writing for the NYT.
Go forth and Google!
I don't know if too many Sleater-Kinney fans read Atrios, [....]
I was going to say that Sleater-Kinney rocks, until my hands threatened to strangle me if I should attempt to make them type out such a cliche.
So how about "kick ass"? I asked.
I'm typing it even now, aren't I? my hands replied.
They are goddesses, each one of them.
The best plays I've ever seen on Broadway. Not the say this is the best play I've seen, as most good stuff happens Off and Off-Off, but Kushner managed to capture a time period and nail several issues while successfully keeping several moving sotry lines and a sense of whimsy.
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