I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Let's get Admiral Poindexter on this investigation IMMEDIATELY.
Not "Reagan".
"Terrorist Supporter Reagan".
(Also, not "Bush I".
"Saddam Sponsor Bush I".)
Don't forget, Raygun armed two-thirds of the Axis of Evil.
Same crooks, different day.
There is no question about the Pentagon being involved in rogue covert operations. It is insulting to the intelligence to suggest that this administration does'nt make the Reagan administration look like a bunch of boy scouts.
"Mr. Ghorbanifar's involvement caused concern within the Bush administration because it evoked memories of Iran-contra."
LOL.
As if the administration need look beyond the President's appointees and Oliver North's new show on FOX to be reminded of Iran-contra.
Don't forget, Raygun armed two-thirds of the Axis of Evil.
Mr. Twister
Well put ... pithy!! I will henceforth steal this line as it is so good.
The article doesn't really go into this other recent Ghorbanifar cameo...
Get this: They were trying to use him as a source on what happened to Iraq's WMDs. He had a crazy theory that the WMDs were in Iran.
well we all know WhistleAss has been gunning for Reagan's mantle since day 1, nakes sense to get the old gang all together again
Yes! Excellent line! 
I'm so tired of THIS crap:
US forces have admitted mistakenly killing nine children when they bombed a target in southern Afghanistan.
Collateral damage...
pie - oh fuck. Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck.
How in the name of anything that might be holy can you "mistakenly" kill 9 children?
Ok, now I can't wait for the prowar trolls to come along and say "Yes, it's too bad about the children. But it's war."
Fuck.
Can't type more - can't see.
Interesting, troops are dying at a rate of 1.99 per day, yet in the 5 days it took to make the add 50 troops had died. Additionally, I may be mathematically challenged, but how does a rate of 1.99 per day lead to 2,400 deaths over the course of a year?
OT: From Friedman:
"A cynic might say that Mr. Bush was always interested only in stripping Iraq of its W.M.D. But with no W.M.D. having been unearthed thus far in Iraq, and with the costs of the war in lives and dollars soaring, the president felt he needed a new rationale. And so he focused on the democratization argument."
No, a cynic might say that even the WMD rationale was phony. And that cynic would be right!
Place your bets, here, place your bets!!
Will the name "Adnan Khashoggi" be linked to the Rove administration in:
1) One Week
2) One Month
3) 3 Months
4) The next few days
3) 3 months. Come on baby!
J: for the simple reason that the "1.99 per day" statistic referenced a longer timespan than the period over which the animation was created.
How in the name of anything that might be holy can you "mistakenly" kill 9 children?
Like this, Tena:
Acting on "extensive intelligence", he said an A10 "Warthog" - a heavily armoured plane - was called in and opened fire on the isolated rural site.
"The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence is examining the December 2001 and June 2002 meetings, which were initiated by Manucher Ghorbanifar, an Iranian who acted as a middleman in the Iran-contra affair during the Reagan administration and was long ago labeled a fabricator by American intelligence officials."
Not another Chalabi...
Acting on "extensive intelligence"...
Essjay - Adnan Khashoggi has been linked with the Bushes since forever. Arms dealers all know each other - it's a relatively small, inbred group.
I've thought from the beginning that even if there was nothing wrong going on, it looked bad for the father of a president to be an arms dealer and for that president to go around starting wars. I mean, how much more like a banana republic can you get?
So, what is going on?
pie - more proof, if more is needed, that Bush is, indeed, that anti-Christ. It's his war, it's his fault. He better hope and pray that his little religious mania turns out to be not the way it is. 'Cause otherwise, the part of hell he is going to spend eternity in will be that part nearest its center.
This is simply more corruption on a incredibly monumental level. Its virtually out of control.
re : the khashoggi link, it was done in march - http://newyorker.com/printable/?...t/
030317fa_fact
Did they take an autographed bible from Bush Jr. and a cake shaped like a key, like last time.
I remember vividly reading the first article on IranContra that had those details and thought, "These guys are dupes."
I'm not a religious person but I hope that there's such a thing as a vengeful God and a Hell that Bush will suffer and burn in eternity for.
I am so friggin tired of these 'internal investigations' being given any credibility whatsoever. The pentagon conducts internal investigations. the white house conducts internal investigations. the congress conducts internal investigations. the justice department conducts internal investigations. the judiciary committee conducts internal investigations. the armed servies committee conducts internal investigations.
NOTHING FRIGGIN' COMES OF THEM. Lets just call them what they are. Coverups. "The Pentagon has conducted its own internal coverup of the Ghorbanifar matter."
Tena:
What? You wanna cut in on my action?
Place your bets! Here, place your bets!! "Adnan Khashoggi" is the name, people!
When will we hear "Adnan Khashoggi"? Place your bets!
Adnan Kashoggi is always a name to watch out for. Kind of like you watch out for falling debris when walking through a demolition zone.
Did Adnan Khashoggi Throw the Election to Dubya?
Timothy Noah
Posted Monday, Dec. 4, 2000, at 2:56 PM PT
On Dec. 1, the "Washington Wire" column in the Wall Street Journal published this gratifyingly noir item about the postelection drama in Florida:
"Madame Butterfly" Theresa LePore wasn't always an embattled Palm Beach ballots chief. In the 1980s, she moonlighted as a flight attendant on private planes owned by Saudi weapons dealer Adnan Khashoggi, a middleman in Reagan administration arms sales to Iran.
http://slate.msn.com/id/1006609/
Tena, that joke I sent you is too long, or I'd post it here.
Bush in hell. Yes.
Speaking of crap I'm tired of:
As the guerrilla war against Iraqi insurgents intensifies, American soldiers have begun wrapping entire villages in barbed wire.
In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in.
The Americans embarked on their get-tough strategy in early November, goaded by what proved to be the deadliest month yet for American forces in Iraq, with 81 soldiers killed by hostile fire. The response they chose is beginning to echo the Israeli counterinsurgency campaign in the occupied territories.
In Abu Hishma, encased in a razor-wire fence after repeated attacks on American troops, Iraqi civilians line up to go in and out, filing through an American-guarded checkpoint, each carrying an identification card printed in English only.
"If you have one of these cards, you can come and go," coaxed Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman, the battalion commander whose men oversee the village, about 50 miles north of Baghdad. "If you don't have one of these cards, you can't."
The Iraqis nodded and edged their cars through the line. Over to one side, an Iraqi man named Tariq muttered in anger.
"I see no difference between us and the Palestinians," he said. "We didn't expect anything like this after Saddam fell."
pie - I'll make my last comment of the evening this one - I forwarded that joke to a number of people. They absolutely loved it. It is really good. Send it to Atrios.
OT: Hillary and NEWT on MTP tomorrow. I will get my oxygen ready.
US forces have admitted mistakenly killing nine children when they bombed a target in southern Afghanistan.
Why is anyone surprised? You have cowards in charge of the military -- who dare not take risks because they know that failure (death of US troops) will sooner or later rile up the public whose money they need. So, to be "safe," they send a "heavily armoured" airplane on a mission that any civilized nation would have left to a professionally trained police force.
Moreover, you have a military establishment (and a citizenry) to whom the lives of towelheads (even baby towelheads) is cheap. When the USS Vincennes blew an Airbus airliner full of Iranian pilgrims out of the sky -- that was "by mistake" also. The best naval-electronics systems known to man -- on a billion-dollar Aegis-class vessel -- had "mistakenly" identified a gradually ascending airliner as a rapidly descending fighter aircraft. Some "mistake" -- and yet if it was a mistake why did we never apologize, and why were the captain and crew of the Vincennes decorated for valor?
Why is anyone surprised any more by the monstrous and criminal acts routinely perpetrated by the US military? Y'all been watching too many Pentagon commercials on TV? Wake the hell up. It's late.
Love,
Cervantes, get off your soapbox.
Surprised? No?
many of us are not to blame for the military's tragic errors. I don't even like war. It shouild be obsolete in this day and age. Lecture people who might be able to do something about it. Ha!
Sorry, but you're as annoying as the pro-war types that post here.
Ok, guys, save it for the RNC.
Dear darling pie, if you're not surprised by the behavior of the US military, then I obviously wasn't addressing myself to you -- so why are you being so defensive?
Love,
Wanna' bet if the stink about this flares up, *somebody* slips more cash to someone somewhere to flip up the media heat on Michael Jackson?
The names Ghorbanifar, Khashoggi, Bandar all come up together on interesting documents (Khashoggi and Bandar alone are damned interesting); I wonder if the powers that played this game last time got wiser about manipulating the media so that we'd be too busy watching some other three-ring circus to pay attention this time?
Dearest Cervantes,
Why are you addressing yourself to anyone here?
I know. This sucks. It's infuriating that the citizens of all the countries in the world have never been able to stop these kinds of atrocities. Hopefully, I think there are some who can do it now.
But not the ones in this country, under this leadership, for sure.
Anyway, I know what you're saying.
Love,
Pie
Iran Contra? LOL
As if anything could make Bush's base turn against him.
NOTHING CAN.
It's a lost cause, people. His base don't care if he is dealing with Satan himself. They will not, ever, never, not in a million fucking years of Sundays...admit they were wrong.
Ever.
So, don't bother. Work on the people in our own ranks who are wavering. God knows there's enough of them.
Sorry, OT: Tena, check your e-mail!
Why is anyone surprised any more by the monstrous and criminal acts routinely perpetrated by the US military?
I don't think anyone is surprised. All we feel is anguish at yet another hideous example of our military might.
***It is insulting to the intelligence to suggest that this administration does'nt make the Reagan administration look like a bunch of boy scouts.***
Actually, the Reagan admin WAS a bunch of boy scouts. The one genuine scandal of any lasting significance, Iran-Contra, was, at its heart, an effort by the admin to bypas congressional rules in a failed effort to free hostages. You may not approve of the methodology employed, but the motive was as pure as it gets in American politics. Get our boys home.
Dear pie, probably you're right that I don't need to address myself to anyone here -- and probably you're right that everyone here has tried to take as much direct action as you have taken to stop the US military in its tracks -- but I figure I'll just keep reminding folks just in case, because, after all, you never know, do you?
Love,
I asked: "Why is anyone surprised any more by the monstrous and criminal acts routinely perpetrated by the US military?"
And NTodd answered: "I don't think anyone is surprised. All we feel is anguish at yet another hideous example of our military might."
Maybe it's that "All we feel is anguish" part that allows these things to keep happening over and over and over and over and over and over ... ?
Just a thought.
Love,
We bombed another house full of children on the assumption that an individual who murdered two (though foreign, thats the important part) contractors was there.
Our "extensive intelligence" and "stringent rules of engagement" didn't prevent us from bombing innocenbt children - sounds like the Iraq invasion in a nutshell.
When did our Army become the IDF? 
;(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south...sia/
3297575.stm
Ariel: And of course, selling drugs in the U.S. to fund the killing of children by Nicarauguan military contras is very Boy Scoutish. Sorry, I can't think the motives were "pure". I knew one of those children. It kinda takes it all away from the abstract level for me.
I'm not blaming you, Ariel. These things are not common knowledge, in general. Takes a bit of research to turn them up, these days. But bringing the hostages home was the very least of Iran-Contra.
atipamezole: "When did our Army become the IDF?
George Armstrong Custer has the answer.
Love,
April Follies: "But bringing the hostages home was the very least of Iran-Contra."
Yes, and not only that ... there were more US hostages in Lebanon after the "Iran-Contra operation" ended than just before it began.
Love,
The one genuine scandal of any lasting significance, Iran-Contra, was, at its heart, an effort by the admin to bypas congressional rules in a failed effort to free hostages. You may not approve of the methodology employed, but the motive was as pure as it gets in American politics. Get our boys home.
This is revisionist.
Iran Contra was an effort by the Executive Branch to find a way to fund the Contras in DIRECT CONTRAVENTION of a LAW passed by Congress.
That's called, an exercise in extra-constitutional government, something the US is not supposed to EVER have.
Reagan and his ilk lied to Congress so that he could implement his policy against the will of the people who the Constitution puts in oversight over the Executive branch.
That's treason, in my book. The fact that he is adored by millions in no way changes the fact that he's a traitor the Constitution he swore an oath to uphold.
Cervantes,
My mother's theory is that this sort of thing comes from a bad application of Christian theology. The idea is that one can do anything, however awful, and that merely saying "I'm sorry/I didn't mean it" or words to that effect will completely wipe out the offense. One may repeat ad infinitum, and still be assured of forgiveness. Words are a substitute for action, and the slate is wiped clean every time. In real life, ill-advised or unfortunate actions have consequences that often cannot be cancelled by declaring them to be so. Unless people take full responsibility for their actions (paying damages, cleaning the mess, visiting the hospital) there's little motivation for them to do better. God will forgive you, but thy neighbor will probably sue.
Maybe it's that "All we feel is anguish" part that allows these things to keep happening over and over and over and over and over and over ... ?
Bzzz! Nice try, but the answer we were looking for was "militarism". Militarism allows these things to happen. Alternately, our judges tell me we would have accepted "a belief that violence can solve problems." Anyway, thanks for playing.
You expressed surprise that people here appeared to express surprise about bad things. I was merely observing that I, for one, am not surprised, but anguished. My anguish is what motivates my political action, which includes a goal of eliminating such slaughters.
One of these days, so help me God, I mean to see Ollie North on trial for crimes against humanity. Of course, I have a long list of people I want to see on trial for crimes against humanity and war crimes. But Ollie has a special place on that list for his performance, standing up and saying Yeah, I did it, and so what? I'm a patriot, dammit!
Sisi: I think your mother is on to something, but I don't know if she has the right amount of cynicism needed to take the analysis to completion.
NTodd: Your story has changed. Before, you said that "All we feel is anguish." I interpreted that to mean "All we feel is anguish." Silly me. But now you reveal that you feel a lot more than just anguish -- you also feel motivated to create positive change -- so that's good and useful, I think.
Love,
I'm watching soccer highlights on Fox Sports World (thanks Murdoch!) and they just ran that vile "Army of One" ad. Well, OK, they ALL are, but this is the one where they show potential recruits that they can jet ski and play golf if they join up.
Evil fuckers.
Yeah, I did it, and so what? I'm a patriot, dammit!
One of the early signs of fascism is a tendency towards militarism and nationalism masquerading as patriotism.
April -- Ollie North prosecuted? Sure, but don't you think we should take care of the the great war criminal from the previous Repub administration first?
You know, the one who's on the board of Richard Perle's Trireme Partners?
Yeah, Henry Kissinger, that's the guy. Let's get *him* in front of the International Criminal Court while he's still alive -- Ollie's got plenty more years left.
Manucher Ghorbanifar, don't these cheap thugs ever get what's coming to them? It's all one big crime family and unless we get rid of the kid they're going to just keep going on and on.
"A cynic might say that Mr. Bush was always interested only in stripping Iraq of its W.M.D."
Yes, a cynic might say that, a realist will say that Bush is only interested in stripping Iraq of anything of value. That's why the illegal selling off the property of the people of Iraq is going on at a staggering pace.
Collateral damage, it's really terrible how our press will accept anything if you come up with a mild sounding term for it. It's killing children, for God's sake and they won't lose a moment's glee at their holiday parties over it. Evil trash.
Ariel,
The October Surprise, which was set up prior to Reagan's inauguration, was the release of the hostages in exchange for aircraft parts and weaponry. Similar to the Republican effort to deal with North Vietnam outside the official government negotiators at the Paris Peace talks. Iran Contra was a later operation that was meant to capitalize on the CIA connections used in October Surprise (Israeli and other middlemen, moneylaundering via BCCI and others). This leaves out other scandals and misbehavior, like the HUD scams (Neil and Jeb), S&L (Neil and Marvin), and so on. HBO should do a series on the Bushes, starting at the turn of the 20th century, kind of a mix of "Sopranos" and "Taken".
OT - Hey, "A Marine's Girl"'s Marine has gotten back in one piece! Yay!
http://marinegirl.blogspot.com/
Bigfoot: "This leaves out other scandals and misbehavior, like the HUD scams (Neil and Jeb), S&L (Neil and Marvin), and so on. HBO should do a series on the Bushes, starting at the turn of the 20th century, kind of a mix of "Sopranos" and "Taken".
I'm with you, Bigfoot -- but if your HBO series starts in 19xx, then shouldn't it also cover the role that GWB's grandpappy (i.e., GHWB's daddy) Prescott played as one of the financiers of the Third Reich? And that he made the family fortune in the process? The documentation has been sitting around in Washington's dusty cabinets for decades, but the facts are well known.
Love,
Ariel Correctors,
How come everyone is leaving out the part of Iran / Contra where they don't want the hostages freed until after Carter is elected?
October Surprise is no longer believed by the guy who dreamt it up in the first place. I have no proof one way or the other.
Reagan armed BOTH sides of the Iran/Iraq War, I think that is a bigger deal than arming any one particular baddie. That's just murerously, blood-splattering evil.
Adnan Kashiggi is ALREADY connected to, well, the Bush Presidency 
Teresa LePore (drafter of the butterfly ballot) used to part time as a flight attendant on Adnan's private airline. According to Ugga Bugga
NTodd: Your story has changed. Before, you said that "All we feel is anguish." I interpreted that to mean "All we feel is anguish." Silly me. But now you reveal that you feel a lot more than just anguish -- you also feel motivated to create positive change -- so that's good and useful, I think.
You don't do context, eh? My story has not changed at all, I was merely addressing the issue of surprise at the military's actions. I'll note that as a Quaker, I'm trying to work to bring about a non-violent world. Geesh.
Phuckity Phuch Phuc PHUCK!!!!
No Al Sharpton on SNL here in the Northeast...
Affiliate out of Plattsburgh claims it is due to equal rights/time due to the NH Primary...
Phuckity Phuch Phuc PHUCK!!!!
Man oh Man oh Man, why do NBC affiliates hate America!!!
Here is the email I was sent... (Next Post due to Haloscan 100 word PITA)
A PROGRAM NOTE --
NEWSCHANNEL 5 AND NEWSCHANNEL 31 ARE BROADCASTING AN ALTERNATE VERSION
OF NBC'S SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE TONIGHT.
THAT PROGRAM FEATURES AL SHARPTON AS HOST.
SHARPTON HAS BEEN CERTIFIED AS A LEGALLY QUALIFIED CANDIDATE FOR THE
DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION IN NEW HAMPSHIRE'S PRIMARY.
THERE ARE 20 CANDIDATES IN THAT PRIMARY ... AND UNDER FEDERAL LAW WE
COULD HAVE BEEN REQUIRED TO PROVIDE THOSE CANDIDATES EQUAL TIME.
http://www.thechamplainchannel.c....com/
index.html
Dear NTodd, if when you say that I "don't do context" you mean that I don't make up context, then yes, you're right. I just took your words as I found them. I'm no mind-reader (and even if I were, lots of people wouldn't like it, so that wouldn't help matters much).
I'll note that as a Quaker, I'm trying to work to bring about a non-violent world.
Not particularly surprising; yet I'm glad to hear it.
Love,
Cervantes - are you practicing to be the next Instapundit? Here's what I quoted from your speechifying:
Why is anyone surprised any more by the monstrous and criminal acts routinely perpetrated by the US military?
I then answered that nobody was surprised and felt anguish. The context: feelings of surprise vs. feelings of anguish. It's that simple. You need not be a mind reader, you need to just read.
RF - do you live near Burlington or Plattsburgh? Channel 5 is our local NBC affiliate (which I used to be able to watch when I lived close enough to town). Tom Messner rules.
Dear NTodd, for a self-professed Quaker you appear to be rather too excitable.
If you think you have proven some point you were trying to prove, then so be it. Stay well.
Love,
Dr. Bonzo: Yeah, I know. But at least Kissinger wasn't quite so brazen, y'know? More crimes, though, and worse, agreed, from Kissinger. At least he can't go abroad these days without fearing arrest. Hah. Getting him in front of a court in this country will be a priority, once we have an administration that doesn't want to hire the bastard...
April Follies: "But at least Kissinger wasn't quite so brazen"
How do you figure that?
Curious,
You realize that, don't you, that the US is fucked if you don't get those idiots out of power next year? Bush is going to ruin you in the face of the world and financially. Do something. Please.
RF, and he's been decent too. especially his intro and the james brown stuff. shit he can dance just like james.
sigh. i am so fuckingpissed at being ON THE FUCKING BAD SIDE OF A FIGHT. Kerry and the rest should have known what a fuck up anything george had his fat fuckin fingers in would turn to shit.
DAMMIT. I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK.
Yeah, Henry Kissinger, that's the guy. Let's get *him* in front of the International Criminal Court while he's still alive -- Ollie's got plenty more years left.
Not long ago Kissinger was interviewed on CBC and he was asked point blank what he thought about the fact that he could be brought before the international court for crimes against humanity. The smug asshole gave a short reply to the interviewer and walked out on the interview. An innocent person would not have walked.
Shit. It's snowing here. First snow, and blowing around like the fluff inside W's head. Oh well, I'll shovel if it's the price I have to pay for living north of the 49th. All you folks who are sane and don't want to live in a Bush run neocon land any more are welcome to apply up here. As long as you don't bitch about the cold you'll be okay.
Lots of Master Baiters here tonight.
Iran this, Iraq that. Tough shit - they both should pay the price for worshipping a false god (with a pedophilic prophet to boot - may piss be upon him).
An innocent person would not have walked.
No, Abiel, any minimally self-important person might walk away from a personal affront. Whether it's "prudence is the better part of valor" or "the game is not worth the candle", or, considering Henry's age, "I don't know what you said, but it sounded hostile and it's past my bedtime, so goodnight."
Kissinger and Pinochet will shortly die. Like dogs, like humans, they will softly and silently vanish away and never be heard from again. Death is a boojum.
NTodd, I am 30-60 mile North of Hangover, NH (Dartmouth College joke) just got up due to HUGE THUDD SNOW CRASH OFF OF ROOF...
I got 2' and it is drifting up on some of the windows 3-4'
I am at the foot of the White Mountains, about 600' above the Connecticut River, looking west into Vermont...
I cannot imagine how much the North and eastern slopes are getting, but if I am getting this much, they are getting POUNDED...
Castle Rock WILL be open for bumpin, fer sure... (Takes me about 1.5hrs to get there, when roads clear...)
I understand the "fair time" thing, hey in an instant runoff world, Sharpton would be way ahead in my book, but that ain't reality today, so for the love of poofy dark days in dah powder, let me see the guy!
Guess I will have to wait for the 'peats, they come pretty quick in GE-NBC land...
Local news around here will rot your brain, WMUR-9 is RICH from $$$'s from 1st in Nation Primary ads, they are bought BIGTIME, if you catch my drift, enough late nite puns, and Haloscan is sure to scalp...
Monkey, you have it absolutely, precisely correct. I see this phenomenon every day: people I really like, who I KNOW are intelligent, are completely blind to this destructive twit. It's up to the rest of us to boot his ass out.
--It's a lost cause, people. His base don't care if he is dealing with Satan himself. They will not, ever, never, not in a million fucking years of Sundays...admit they were wrong.
Ever.
So, don't bother. Work on the people in our own ranks who are wavering. God knows there's enough of them.
Monkey | Email | Homepage | 12.06.03 - 9:27 pm |
ran this, Iraq that. Tough shit - they both should pay the price for worshipping a false god (with a pedophilic prophet to boot - may piss be upon him).
no dhimicrats please
I'm surprised people like this even learned how to crawl out from under their trailers long enough to get to a keyboard.
Mr. Ghorbanifar's involvement caused concern within the Bush administration because it evoked memories of Iran-contra...
I thought none of them could remember anything about it. Still, if they've got their memories back, maybe they could answer some questions...
"Interesting, troops are dying at a rate of 1.99 per day, yet in the 5 days it took to make the add 50 troops had died. Additionally, I may be mathematically challenged, but how does a rate of 1.99 per day lead to 2,400 deaths over the course of a year?"
Because - you waste of time with no real point to make pedant - there have been different casualty numbers everyday - maybe, just maybe - he made the ad during the early month of nov when we had many casualties?!?
Why is it that when a suicide bomber kills 9 Israeli civilians, he is a terrorist asshole but when we kill 9 innocents it is an unfortunate incident. The innocents are just as dead and the grieving survivors are just as pissed. The only differnce I see is the delivery mechanism, our country can afford to deliver it's bombs with A10's, the palestinians and Iraqi's use much more primative means.
Dear FarmerJack: Apologists for US foreign policy have always had to ignore the kind of question you raise.
More examples: On the one hand the Taliban (undeniably) gave support to Al Qaeda -- so we bombed their country and (of course, "accidentally") killed their innocents. On the other hand Saudi millionaires also (undeniably) gave much support to Al Qaeda; and for that matter Boston's population (undeniably) gave much support to the IRA -- but have we attacked Riyadh? and what would we have said if the Royal Air Force had carpet-bombed Massachusetts?
Terrorism is what they do. So by definition we and our friends can't be terrorists. It's a very handy, if somewhat nauseating, formula.
Love,
For a country that professes to love children you sure like to blow them up if their brown and live in a different country.
i'm a uniter, not a divider!
Dear Cervantes:
Nobody here, i think, is surprised. Or simply sitting around feeling anguished. Except for certain chordates who talk about being punished for worshipping the wrong God, the folks here are dedicated to turning the right-wing lunatics out of the White House, the Capitol, The Supreme Court, The Pentagon, and the Smithsonian Institution just for good measure. In everything from personal conversations to directing disposable income to taking to the streets, many--maybe even most, here are directing their feelings and their convictions towards that end as far as they are able.
It's good to point out the historical depth of this perfidy. It's good to give us more ammunition. Many thanks. But if you're saying we're not committed enough, that (say) we're not arming ourselves and getting ready to pilot a car bomb into the justice department. Please stop. If it's just rhetorical flourishes, we can do without those too. We're more than the choir: we're a committed congregation.
Given the moral clarity with which George Bush has approached the terrorism issue the choice is simple. Elliot Abrams-GITMO
In fact, our heroic president might just want to take him out all by himself. Perhaps Karl Rove can get it on film for a campaign commercial. If you aid and support a terrorsit, you are a terrorist. I think this has been a clever ploy by our dear leader.
They say to keep your enemies close. This is why he has all these terrorists and terrorist sympathizers in his administration. One day he is going to call them all into a room and personally deal with each and every one of them. Until then, he has their confidence and they are leading him to all these think tanks, media moles and other cells that have been funding the terrorists for all these years.
Dear pbg: Had I wanted to say you are not committed enough, here's how I would have put it: "Dear pbg, you're not committed enough."
And if you're right that nobody here is surprised by the routinely monstrous behavior of the US military, like I said, that's great -- but just in case, I like to cover all the bases. You don't have to take it personally each time, you know.
OK by you?
Love,
PS: pbg: I liked the bit about the Smithsonian Institution (those no-good bastards).
Love,
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing....
When will it ever end?
When will it ever end?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
The US military is monstrous is it? Since the US military is by definition an instrument of US government policy, then the current US government policy must be monstrous. Continuing the logic, since the US government policy is to proactively fight Islamic fundamentalism in the War on Terror, fighting that war must be wrong, or monstrous if you will, and accomodation would be the policy or preference.
You folks are indistinguishable from the anti-war movement as a whole. You are reliable allies of those who would destroy your country and fellow citizens. The US military that you openly despise and the soldiers that you disdain with crocodile tears are all that is keeping you free and able to play in this sandbox with the other kool kids.
I think it would be best for all parties if you would take up that fellow's offer up thread and leave. America really doesn't need your fearful moral vacuity distracting her in this fight.
I hate to throw this into the mix, since everyone is on such a nice roll here, but what was an assassin doing surrounding himself with 9 children? It sounds like Palestinian fighters aren't the only ones to sacrifice children in order to make the opposition look more evil.
IO - read some history. The ONLY war that we ever fought that was justified was WW2. The others have been nothing more than adventures to keep the rich power elite who run the country in charge. BTW, FDR had to drag the Refucklicans kicking and screaming into wW2.
Dear I. O., your slip is showing. (Just kidding.)
"The US military is monstrous is it? Since the US military is by definition an instrument of US government policy, then the current US government policy must be monstrous."
Non sequitur (and not the only one in your post).
"Continuing the logic, since the US government policy is to proactively fight Islamic fundamentalism in the War on Terror, fighting that war must be wrong, or monstrous if you will, and accomodation would be the policy or preference.
No, dear Immediately Obvious, what you are "continuing" here isn't logic, it's a straightjacket. First, your premise is flawed. If "US government policy is to proactively fight Islamic fundamentalism in the War on Terror," where are the attacks on Riyadh and where are the Gitmo internments of the Pakistani ISI leadership? Moreover, is Saddam Hussein an Islamic fundamendalist? Really?
But even accepting your premise, your view of what the ends of US policy are, there's the question of appropriate means -- a question that's clearly not "Immediately Obvious" to you.
The rest of what you say is not argument, it's just your opinion. You're welcome to it. I see no need to respond.
Love,
Dear Immediately Obvious--
Fuck off.
Love,
Alex
Dear libo, I really don't know why nine children were there. Maybe you're right and the alleged assassin deliberately put them there as human shields. If he did that, he's a thug. No question about it.
Now, whose airplane dropped the bombs that indiscriminately killed everyone there? Who made the decision that killing one thug was worth any number of innocent lives? What's the difference between such a decision-maker and a suicide bomber? (The only salient difference is that the suicide bomber is willing to give up his or her own life as well, whereas our heroic decision-maker ...)
Love,
hate to throw this into the mix, since everyone is on such a nice roll here, but what was an assassin doing surrounding himself with 9 children?
libo, do you assume this guy was using the children as human shields?
In Hutala, a field was pockmarked by dozens of small craters from the American A-160 aircraft's guns. There were pools of blood and articles of children's clothing were strewn on the ground.
``They were just playing ball, and then the shots came down,'' said Hamidullah, a distraught villager who said his eight-year-old son, Habibullah, was among those killed. Like many Afghans, they only have one name.
[...]
U.S. Army Maj. Christopher E. West said the target - identified by the U.S. ambassador as Wazir - was killed in the attack, south of the city of Ghazni, 100 miles southwest of the capital, Kabul.
``At the time we initiated the attack, we did not know there were children nearby,'' West said from the U.S. military headquarters at Bagram, north of Kabul.
West and Khalilzad said U.S. troops had gone to the scene and identified Wazir among the dead. They also discovered the bodies of the nine children.
It appears that the children were playing near the house where Wazir was said to be:
Khalilzad stopped short of acknowledging that the military was responsible, saying an investigation was under way.
``The Americans wanted to bomb Mullah Wazir, but they bombed a different house,'' said Jawaid Khan, the Ghazni governor's secretary. ``The people there are very afraid. They have no idea why the Americans bombed their village.'' He put the number of children killed at eight and said two other men were also killed.
About a dozen U.S. soldiers stood guard outside a mud house in Hutala that locals said belonged to Wazir.
So much for their freaking "extensive intelligence."
From the BBC:
US military spokesman Major Christopher West said ground forces found the bodies of the children near that of the intended target after the strike on a house near the city of Ghazni.
The bullets weren't smart enough; they couldn't discriminate between an alleged terrorist and innocent children who were playing ball. You know, children being children.
Pentagon sources report that the nine kids were weapons of mass destruction. Quoting the local Coalition commander Roger Ramjet, Secretary Rumsfeld asked: "Did you see what they did to our jeep yesterday?"
Love,
Okay, it seems with further information that crackhead george and his keystone kooks screwed up without any help from our former friends (what else is new?). This war, from start to finish, is a war between men, with women and children along for the dangerous ride. It wouldn't surprise me if the Taliban put a few children in the line of fire just to make us look that much more evil -- as if we needed any help with that. Just as it doesn't surprise me that crackhead george bleated a few exploitative words about the situation for women in Afghanistan as one more reason why it was okay to carpet bomb the countryside.
Not that I'm annoyed or anything...
Holy ratf***!
Tom Friedman is wallowing in the deep-end again.
Is this assclown comparing the Civil War to the illegal Iraq invasion?
Bush and Lincoln had similar dilemmas?
What a douchbag.
Immediately Obvious, why do you hate America?
Is this assclown comparing the Civil War to the illegal Iraq invasion?
He’s just pointing out the benefits of revisionism.
If Commander Codpiece didn't have all of the Special Ops and Intel guys looking for WMDs in Iraq, they could/would have taken this guy out on the ground up close and personal.
OT, but look at this: Tough New Tactics by U.S. Tighten Grip on Iraq Towns.
ABU HISHMA, Iraq, Dec. 6 — As the guerrilla war against Iraqi insurgents intensifies, American soldiers have begun wrapping entire villages in barbed wire.
In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in.
It's the lead story at the Drudge.
Dear AugDog, Tom Friedman is not worth taking seriously as an analyst.
In this episode of his continuing pornographic soap opera, he wants us to share his stated belief that Bush has now turned to Arab democracy as the cause that can justify the American occupation of Iraq. But (1) Is Bush really committed to having our troops in Iraq as long as it might take to build a democracy there? And (2) Who is stupid enough to believe that any true Arab democracy will necessarily be on the same side as US policy in the region?
Love,
What's the difference between such a decision-maker and a suicide bomber?
Not only that, cervantes, what's the difference between democracy and the (desperation/whatever) used by a suicide bomber? Why do we, the ones allegedly bring democracy and liberation to Iraqis, too frequently choose the actions of the suicide bomber/thug? How can we put into two separate thought processes/decision-making processes 1) building schools for these children; 2) eliminating them because they were close to the suicide bomber?
When clandestine meetings between Pentagon officials and Iranian dissidents were first revealed last summer, the Bush administration played down the importance of the contacts
What’s also noteworthy is that the NYT ran no story about this until now. I noticed it at the time and confirmed it just now by searching for “Ghorbanifar” for the last year, got just this one story.
'Immediately Obvious, why do you hate America?'
Typical. By the twisted, half educated logic here one must condemn America in order to love it. One must despise the troops in order to support them. One must advocate the prostration of America to preserve it.
It ain't your country to give away folks. It belongs to all of us. David Warren is a canadian and understands the US far better than the people here. You see yourselves as an intellectual elite who think about abstractions instead of realities, and whose instinct to appease a mortal enemy is founded in a lazy, cowardly, and conceited moral relativism. The rest of us aren't likely to cede the country 'back' to you just so that you can give it away.
You see yourselves as an intellectual elite who think about abstractions instead of realities
No we don't. You do. Nyah, nyah, nyah. Boogerbrain.
There, now we've elevated the debate to your approximate level.
So that's Bush meant by "No Child Left Behind." He meant that when we kill terrorists or enemy combatants or whatever we're calling them these days we'll also kill their children so as not to leave them parentless. How thoughtful.
Hey I.O., your own twisted, half educated logic is immediately obvious. Just out of curiosity could you please define moral relativism and contrast it with your own moral “ism”.
Immediately Obvious:
You must be a fan of Billy Safire. He also uses big words and then says pretty much nothing.
Okay, IO-- you think we are succeeding in winning the hearts and minds of Iraqis?
Do you think everything America does is just peachy and there is no reason to criticize anything?
If Clinton was doing this, would you be defending this?
The thersites handle must be meant as a joke on the people here. In case it's wasted on them, the reference is to a literary figure known as a traitor, appeaser, and coward.
IO
Wow, you're like literate and shit . . .
You can shove that condemn-America-to-love crap. I love my country but loathe the policies and extremely bad decisions made by them.
I'm so terribly tired of wingers and trolls blathering about patriotism in the face of atrocities.
There are larger things in this universe than the United States of America, I.O. You align yourself with the party that has declared itself "pro-life," when it comes to fetuses, yet you accuse us and others of being anti-American when it comes to outrage over the murders of 9 living, real children. I'm sure you would have voted for the death penalty for the woman in Houston who drowned her children. But the 9 children killed in Afghanistan don't matter to you.
How the fuck do you sleep at night?
meaning the current squater administration. . .
What's apparently wasted on you, dear Immediately Obvious, is that the original Thersites is famous for being the only rank-and-file soldier who dared to speak truth to power. For criticizing the king and commander-in-chief, he was called a traitor.
Get it now?
Love,
IO I am a vet. I dare you to find a vet (that's not a psycho) who sees children as mere "collateral damage". I'll be damned if I will let you or anyone else tell me where to live or where to go. Why don't YOU go to a war zone and risk your life? It's easy to say no big deal in the safety and comfort of your home. I've been hearing this crap for over twenty years. People in the military (for the most part) are not evil or baby killers. Shame on those who say so. Don't forget - there's a human being inside that uniform.
Meaning the administration that is comprised of thieves, liars and killers. The administration that does business with arms dealers, tyrants who boil dissidents alive for fun and the family of Osama bin Laden. The administration that is responsible for 9/11 and an illegal, unjustified war.
I.O., you and the people you support are traitors to the United States. You are all guilty of treason, and I hope to see you all on trial someday, for crimes against humanity and the United States of America.
blogger dead. can't post. click the homepage for this article:
Those who try to do the undoable must also think the unthinkable. US strategists in Iraq are contemplating what they have always denied, the search for a "strong man with a moustache" to stop the present rot. If the result is not democracy, so be it.
If the result is the dismemberment of Iraq, so be it. Iraq has become a mess. There is only one priority: to "get out with dignity".
This strategy is now being rammed down the throat of the US administrator in Baghdad, Paul Bremer, by George W. Bush's new "realist", Deputy National Security Adviser Bob Blackwill. He answers to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, not US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and is the new boss of Iraq.
That’s a good strategy Atrios, but the link seems to be broken.
try this one
Atrios - I'm sorry to add to your problems, but the link from homepage didn't work.
We knew that it might come to this in Iraq. Bush has gratuitously wrecked a country, just like he has gratuitously wrecked everything else he ever came into contact with.
And he's made the entire U.S. one huge battleground for generations of middle easterners who will hate us until their dying days. My god.
The US military that you openly despise and the soldiers that you disdain with crocodile tears are all that is keeping you free and able to play in this sandbox with the other kool kids.
How, exactly, am I being kept "free"?
I was born free, you dolt. So were you. No military made me free, you idiot.
Go back and read the Declaration of Independence. What does "we hold these truths to be SELF-EVIDENT" mean to you?
That you are free, born free, and no government can give you freedom, it is INNATE.
So fuck off with your militarism.
Another of the early signs of fascism is a tendency to equate dissent from the Party doctrine with treason and aiding the Enemy.
Those who try to do the undoable must also think the unthinkable.
Oh shit.
Atrios - the 2d link was good. Thank you.
NTodd - Oh shit, indeed.
According to Jim Lobe, Blackwill is Condi’s old boss.
Robert Blackwill, who appears to have effectively taken control of Iraq policy and a great deal more at the expense of the Pentagon hawks. Blackwill, who was Rice's boss in the first Bush administration, is considered on the right, but with a far more pragmatic temperament than the neo-cons.
hey IO-
is that why so many governments run by the military have so many freedoms? I always thought there was a correlation there
"Thersites is famous for being the only rank-and-file soldier who dared to speak truth to power."
I know at least one Jesuit who would consider you an ass.
If you haven't read Juan Cole today, you should. He participated in a panel discussion at MIT on Friday. The postwar policy decisions in Iraq were broken down into three phases, and he briefly explains which group was responsible for each, from the neocons to State Dept. to the DoD.
Infighting among the players, of course, leads to incomplete planning and the continued instability of the country.
What a bunch of incompetent fools.
Remember when we thought everyone in this administration was on the same page, and this helped make them strong and powerful? Smoke and mirrors. Hahaha.
... he's made the entire U.S. one huge battleground for generations of middle easterners who will hate us until their dying days.
Tena
To say nothing of the enmity between Democrats and Republicans over this war, and other policies. I can now hardly talk to a repub who likes this war ... just cannot talk to them. Defending the death of children as 'collateral damage' is about the lowest ... but what else can they do at this point -- oh, I forgot, they usually change the subject, that's it!!
IO -- go fuck yourself.
pie-
they are on the same page, different coloring books is the problem
... Did Adnan Khashoggi Throw the Election to Dubya?
I've always heard 'follow the money', but, you know what, I bet they've found a way to subvert that! I wouldn't know how to begin, but somebody does ... I heard a man who had written a book about the 1953 CIA coup in Iran say that if you look at Iran in 1953, Iraq in 1960-80s, Afghanistan in 1970-80s, where we funded so many terrorists and war lords ... this man is worried about the future of Iraq, say possibly about 2015-20.
My point is we're funding somebody there now to help us.
they are on the same page, different coloring books is the problem
That is the perfect analogy to describe the children currently *in charge* here. Excellent.
Dear pie, Ivo's best line that afternoon was when he said (and I paraphrase): "I know almost nothing about Iraq -- which is one of the few ways in which I fit right in with the Bush Administration."
Love,
Dear Immediately Obvious, what am I supposed to conclude from the fact that you know at least one Jesuit who would consider me an ass?
That you should widen your circle of acquaintances?
Love,
streaker said: "...this man is worried about the future of Iraq, say possibly 2015-20."
I don't think it's going to take another 11 years for us to see things in Iraq to be worried about. I think that time is long past. Christ on a crutch - the middle east is watching the U.S. fall apart. It hasn't done anything to help any situation at all, it hasn't done anything this administration said it would do. There were those in the U.S. who thought PNAC was the answer to the Arab/Israeli conflict. That might be the case, if Israel just decides to get it over with and haul the nukes out. My god, what an unmitigated disaster.
Those who try to do the undoable must also think the unthinkable. US strategists in Iraq are contemplating what they have always denied, the search for a "strong man with a moustache" to stop the present rot. If the result is not democracy, so be it.
If the result is the dismemberment of Iraq, so be it. Iraq has become a mess. There is only one priority: to "get out with dignity".
Jethuth Chritht.
There is only one priority: to "get out with dignity".
brings to mind the old anti-war slogan, "Nixon- pull out like your father should have"
Um,
There was another "J" way, way upthread doing some math thing. It wasn't me, as 'kill ratios' or whatever they're calling them now isn't really interesting to me.
I believe people are dying for no reason, other than the re-election of GWB. One more is already way too much.
Best...
j - I didn't think that comment sounded like you when it was posted last night. Glad you cleared that up.
To follow up on an article Atrios posted yesterday, Rummy now wants to change Army readiness standards.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/s...w/60832/1/
.html
Are we winning yet?
And when the hell is Blogger going to get back online? I'll bet Atrios probably has some new stuff, and I have a bunch of things I'd love to post to my site. I'm jonesin'...
Tena, I sleep just fine at night. One dead child bothers me, but your reaction to dead children is not what makes you and the the other half educated PCU grads reliable allies for America's enemies. I doubt very much I'll see you on trial for being a traitor. If this were another country perhaps, but you are lucky enough to live in one where you can your panties in a bunch and safely spurn the military defending you.
What I want to know is when this story is going to be in the U.S. papers. I want the whole country to be presented with the full extent of this fuck-up. I want that sonofabitch in the oval office impeached, preferably yesterday, but I'll take any day from here to November. It's time to say the "I" word a lot and aloud.
Impeach the bastard, now. Now.
IO - I'm very thankful that the military has protected my right to tell you to fuck off.
IO - If you can sleep it just proves, as if more proof was needed, that you are as soulless as the president you admire.
You will all rot in hell together.
And that's it for me - no more crumbs to the troll.
NTodd - "I'm jonesin'"
Don't we all when blogspot or haloscan goes down. Yah, I'd like to see what else Atrios and you have for us. Especially considering this latest story.
I'm ducking everytime an airliner flies over at the moment. I'm sure you realize that the Bush administration has likely signed our death warrants with this little adventure. Nothing like capital punishment on a grand scale. Jeebus.
IMPEACH BUSH (Does cafepress have that on a bumper sticker?)
Seriously, what's blogger's deal? I have an excelent Pearl Harbor Day post all ready to go and it just won't have the same umph if it's posted monday December 8th.
I doubt very much I'll see you on trial for being a traitor. If this were another country perhaps, but you are lucky enough to live in one where you can your panties in a bunch and safely spurn the military defending you.
Please, IO, please tell me exactly HOW the US Military is responsible for the "freedom" that Founding Fathers declared was "self-evident" and innate? Please, describe this causal chain of events for me.
I am free regardless of what the US Military does. I was BORN free, and would be, according the Declaration of Independence, born FREE wherever the fuck I am born.
The US Military doesn't define my freedom, chump. I'm a free individual who ALWAYS has been and ALWAYS will be "free" to do what I want, when I want.
There may be fascist tyranny that established consequences for my actions, but so what? If people like you turn the US into a weird hybrid of Disneyland and Nazi Germany, what the fuck difference do the actions of the US military in Iraq have to do with it?
Please, I was born free and the US Military had nothing to do with it.
Once again, who in nine hells is the military defending us from? North Korea? Nope, we're talking to them. The Chinese? Nope, trade partners. Terrorists? The military sure did a bang-up job on 9/11, didn't they?
Now, I'm not one of those who say all military folks are dirty bastards. Most of 'em are kids who don't know of any way to get themselves a better life, nor are they given any other option by society. They aren't soulless killers, as evidenced by the passle of completely screwed up bastards left over from Vietnam and Gulf War I.
But the fact of the matter is, neither the government nor the military gives us jack shit. We're born with freedom of speech, right to assemblem, freedom of the press, etc. The government and military, via the Constitution, isn't allowed to take it away from us. Right now, more than ever - and it was basically always thus - the military is cannon fodder for The Powers That Be to make that extra dollar.
Nothing more, nothing less. Quit fooling yourself.
Socialist "Killer",
What makes you think there aren't leftists who bear arms? Money talks and bullshit walks, junior.
...but you are lucky enough to live in one where you can your panties in a bunch and safely spurn the military defending you.
Defend us from whom? Who exactly is threatening us?
Hmmmm?
The more you talk, the better chance republicans will landslide in '04!
This group of criminals and incompetent boobs? Right.
What DO you see in these guys? It's a puzzlement. Got the blinders on?
I said this last night, I'll say it again here, and probably this won't be the last time.
It is the jackasses with the flags all over their cars, with the "United We Stand" stickers, and the yard signs that say "Support the Troops," who are perfectly OK with the idea of those same troops dying in some foreign hell hole for a whole pack of lies and a bunch of money that is going straight into the Bush election campaign.
It is beyond me how some people can purposely blind themselves to the facts. Now that is fascist - a blind, unthinking adherence to some kind of abstract idea of patriotism, based on nothing more than the strength of the military, who are obliged to get themselves killed on behalf of the fat white asses who are sitting at computers jerking off to the idea of all those guns going off.
socialist killer - my wife, a hunter, owns a shotgun and a rifle and can kick your ass at skeet any day of the week. some day i plan on buying her the 9mm pistol that she's always wanted. me? i'm a quaker and hate guns, but i'm all for defending the 2nd amendment.
Socialist Killer,
The left wont be happy until they completely tear apart the U.S. Thankfully, we still have the 2nd amendment. You little anti-American, pro-French, pro-terrorist queers should find out firsthand what collateral damage really means.
You poor brainwashed fool. "Tear the US apart"? How, exactly, does the "left" want to do that? You listen to too much Rush.
Queers? Oh, so you're a homophobe, too? Figures...
Yet another early warning sign of fascism: the tendency towards threatening dissenting voices with violence simply because they disagree with your politcal position.
The last refuge of the feeble-minded.
When was the last time that the 2nd Ammendment saved the US from anything? I'd really like an example, post 1789, where a well-regulated militia EVER did anything LIKE what the NRA dittoheads claim their guns are for.
I hope the anti-American, pro-French, pro-terrorist queers don't find out that one of my favorite TV programs is "Tales of the Gun" on History Channel. They might take away my secret decoder ring.
The left wont be happy until they completely tear apart the U.S.
Right wing troll talk is full of shibboleths and canards handed down generation to generation, but in the case of sk it’s probly just the hillbilly heroin talking.
Liberal traitors.
by god, NTodd, you are one interesting Quaker.
Iggles coldcock Cowboys 36-10! McNabb dazzles as Philadelphia clinches payoff spot! Contacted after the game, Rush Limpnuts, suspected drug kingpin and hate-radio whiner, remarked, "I belong in prison, just for being so goddamned dumb. My only excuse is that my listeners demand stupdity, and I deliver it in spades."
Why does socialist killer hate America? Does he understand what it means to be an American? Has he read and understood our history, the good and the bad parts of it?
Has he read?
Liberals are so misinformed by their biased media. They have no idea what real Americans live like, what they believe, how they worship. They have no god but their own egos, and think book learning makes them smart. Only one Book makes you smart.
It is you liberals who hate America. We will root you out. Woe unto my liberal neigbors -- when Plan X happens and we get the signal, patriots will separate the wheat from the chaff.
NTodd is too cool. And right now, that's certainly true, right NTodd?
Thanks, TownDrunk, for another excellent recap of the game and for giving us more evidence of Rush's foot-in-mouth disease.
the wa po sunday paper
PAGE A 30 ?
second to last page
TownDrunk - LOL.
Personally, I am happy to see Philly win this one. I don't think I could take it if Dallas went all the way. It's hard enough here as it is.
America's Team. Yeah, uh huh.
IMPEACH BUSH (Does cafepress have that on a bumper sticker?)
Will this one do?
France = no pants
SK -- well my wife has a nucular bomb and can deploy it on your ass on 30 seconds. And I have a huge cock.
thank you, dave. I wonder if there is any room left on my rear window for one of those? I better send off for one anyway.
Gee, I wander in here to find socialist killer in a testosterone frenzy. Collateral damage and calling people's wives ugly. Damn, and on a Sunday, too.
Well, I'll make the same challenge to you sk, as I have to other wannabes who troll here. I'll do one push-up for every day you served in uniform if you do one push-up for every day I served. And your four years in Webelos doesn't count.
Then, I'd be happy to meet you on any pistol range any day and I'll shoot my GI .45 and you can shoot whatever tricked out piece of shit you want and we'll see who gets better groupings. How 'bout that?
C'mon, folks, anyone with the title "socialist killer" is so obvious a troll as to be unworthy of a reply. I always wondered why people think this is entertaining - I mean, do they drop their pants at town meetings for giggles, as well? What's the appeal? - Anyhow, moving on.
Cervantes: On Kissinger being less blatant than Ollie North - Kissinger has always denied involvement in human-rights crimes, and has encouraged the sealing of records. At least he treats it as a crime in the eyes of the world, not that this excuses the crime. North has the sheer, unmitigated chutzpah to stand up and say, "So what's wrong with hiring mercenaries to shoot down villagers if it's in America's interests?" Kissinger has, I think, dealt the greater injury by far - but it took North to add insult to it, y'know?
MBF, socialist killer, IO - screw you. If the american military ensures freedom how the hell did slavery happpen and persist so long? How did the KKK and lynching survive? Oh yeah, they were right there defending american rights against jim crow. I'm telling you that the military is being used in place of reason and diplomacy. It's not the military at fault it's the leadership. I took the oath and I know what it means. Obviously none of you do. I say again - go to a war zone and dodge bullets.
So, what's it going to be socialist killer? How many push-ups?
And look out with that hand-to-hand stuff there, you might hurt your typing hand (you do type one-handed, right?)
On the Afghan children, may they rest in peace, being used as human shields: current indications are that nothing of the sort took place. They were not even in the wrong place at the wrong time; the military simply had the wrong information. Today's news:
The American warplane was targeting Mullah Wazir, once a local commander for the hard-line Islamic militia. U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and a U.S. military official said Wazir was killed in the attack, but residents and local officials said Wazir escaped — or was not in the village at all.
The residents reported at least one adult man, possibly a Wazir relative, was killed along with the children...
But Hamidullah said the man killed along with the children was a cousin of Wazir named Abdul Hamid. Another villager said Wazir had left two weeks earlier.
Jawaid Khan, secretary of Ghazni's governor, also said Wazir was not killed.
Socialist killer,
I see your homepage link is to Little Green Footballs. I've always wondered where that name comes from. I imagined it was a description of your little, rock hard, constipated turds, but I was never sure. Could you clear that up?
And I'm still waiting on how many days you ever served in uniform and no, that Burger King paper hat doesn't count, either.
Responding to the slightly more literate troll who said: Continuing the logic, since the US government policy is to proactively fight Islamic fundamentalism in the War on Terror, fighting that war must be wrong, or monstrous if you will, and accomodation would be the policy or preference.
This is the fallacy of the false dichotomy, a common mistake of those who see the world in black and white. It presumes there are only two choices when, in fact, other alternatives exist.
The U.S. current approach to fighting "terrorism" is, in fact, wrong, both by moral standards (killing innocents in pursuit of criminals is not justifiable) and by pragmatic ones (creating the next generation of terrorists via a string of current atrocities will hardly stamp out terrorism). Does that mean that "accomodation" is the only alternative strategy? Certainly not.
For just one instance, leaving aside my own thoughts about social justice for a moment: if the U.S. simply treated terrorists as internatinoal criminals (which they are), and put all its resources into essentially a global manhunt, with evidence and such to be sure that only the criminals are targeted, we'd be on vastly more justifiable ground, and probably a lot safer into the bargain. We do not, amazingly enough, have to bomb houses to fight terrorists. To say that the only other alternative is to "accomodate" terrorism is so simplistic a view as to be ludicrous.
... If this were another country perhaps, but you are lucky enough to live in one where you can your panties ...
'can your panties'? Oh well, if you were implying that ... shit! Is that the only argument you can make, that we're lucky to be living in a country like ours? We learned that in third grade civics class! That's why we're so concerned with it. Those values are drilled into us at an early age -- or have you forgotten about that part, and all you can make are veiled accusations? Certain in your party have actually made outright accusations. Do you support them, or do you support our right to disagree?
FYI, all the men in my family served in WW1, and Korea -- father, a couple of brothers. Don't give us civics lectures! My family defended your right to make an ass of yourself on this board!
...if the U.S. simply treated terrorists as international criminals (which they are), and put all its resources into essentially a global manhunt, with evidence and such to be sure that only the criminals are targeted, we'd be on vastly more justifiable ground, and probably a lot safer into the bargain."
Amen, April, well said.
by god, NTodd, you are one interesting Quaker.
Hey, I'm a *liberal* Quaker! Inclusive, big tent, and all that.
Seriously, though, I hold with the Gandhian principle of satyagraha, which at its heart is a recognition that nobody holds a monopoly on the truth. I acknowledge I might be wrong about guns and such, and will not condemn somebody else for thinking they're appropriate tools for solving the world's problems (I think hunting is fine, though I was raised in the religion of suburbia, where all food is encased in holy plastic). My job is to convince the warmongers that they might try a different path. It's a long haul...
Cervantes
Thanks for picking up the point of my handle.
Funny how IO and others like him only seem to know what they're told is true--like by his "Jesuit" & others in charge. Yet they think they're all proud loners & rebels--the more they spout their tired old robotic cliches the more they're convinced that they think for themselves.
IO--my Jesuit can kick your Jesuit's ass.
I've often wondered why we elevate these criminals to the status of soldier. By treating them as military combatants and not as the murdering thugs they are, we give them the cachet and respect of a warrior, something I find offensive. But then, I come from a long line of soldiers.
I am the least of them, a civilian who found himself in uniform for a time.
NTodd is too cool. And right now, that's certainly true, right NTodd?
Oh yeah, figuratively and literally! LOL!
"Bob Blackwill" is kind of an amazing name. Sounds like the kind of name Pynchon fooled around with for a week or so before dumping it as too obvious.
After Googling around it seems clear that BB is one of Poppy's boys. He was ambassador to India until April.
I can't imagine the neocons are in full retreat. What we'll probably see is policy veering wildly from neocon to realist based upon the latest news from the terrorists. What fun.
Since there's no other place to post this, and I've been thinking about NTodd's point, I'm coming around to being less anti-gun than I used to be, and I"m interested in maybe supporting/initiating something new: a ban on guns in population dense areas. I think even hunters could get behind that one. Over a certain population density, guns would have to be registered and locked away with the police (until you needed them to hunt or shoot family members or whatever).
aimai
Maybe "can your panties" is the new slang for "preserve your freedom".
Maybe we should all head down to the lodge to get some "Mason" jars.
Maybe some marmalade.
NTodd - I know it's a long haul, but somehow I think you are up to the task.
April - as far as I'm concerned the only effective way to fight terrorism is the way you described. We missed our golden chance. If, on September 12, we had formed real alliances with the other nations of the world, who sincerely felt sorrow for what happened on the 11th, and had shared information pertinent to hunting down the terrorists and bringing them to justice, we might have the leaders in prisons by now. Instead, we had Bush ("I hit the trifecta!") saying "You're either with us or against us," and straining at the leash to start dropping bombs. And thus are we here. And thus is the world an infinitely more dangerous place today.
Ignore the brownshirts.
...but you are lucky enough to live in one where you can your panties in a bunch and safely spurn the military defending you.
Defend us from whom? Who exactly is threatening us?
Why do we need the troops here? Why do they need to die?
Still waiting for an answer to these questions.
aimai - you certainly have hit upon one reason for Howard Dean's success: he recognizes that the gun laws we have in VT, which are appropriate for our age-old hunter gun culture in a sparsely populated state, might not be appropriate for a dense urban population such as DC.
Each community has its own problems, and has a duty and a right to determine their own solutions, so long as individual rights are upheld. That's the crux of federalism, and something that the faux conservatives have clearly rejected.
BTW, Blogger seems to finally be unbloggered. Atrios, commence blogging! This ersatz open thread has gone on far too long...
I have a small cock, and that's why I drive a big dually club cab diesel pick 'em up truck with a confederate flag on it.
Card will not take responsibility for Kerry's
Phuckity, phuck, Phuck, phuck remark, funny thing is, he won't mention "Deanie Baby" made him do it, either...
To kill time while waiting for Atrios to keep blogging, why not go vote at cnn.com, where the question is who should be on the Dime?
Tena,
The U.S. is doing an equally incompetent job "winning hearts and minds" in Iraq. As horrible as Saddam was, he did most of the really horrendous stuff behind closed doors, in the basement of the Ministry of Love, or whatever. He was politically savvy enough not to regularly humiliate people in the streets in front of the neighbors; especially, not to humiliate men in front of their wives and children. That's something you just don't do in a patriarchal Arab society. I've heard of studies that found that most Palestinian suicide bombers, as children, witnessed their fathers being humiliated by Israeli occupation authorities.
The kind of stuff done by U.S. troops, while a lot less bloody than Saddam's methods, is much more visible. It's guaranteed to make bitter enemies for life.
Kevin, did you read an article this morning about barbed wire being put up around a small village? Here's an article I found at IslamOnline.net.
"Pressed on cordoning off Iraqi villages with barbed wire as applied by the Israeli occupation army in the occupied Palestinian territories, the U.S. top brass admitted shutting off the village of Abu Hishma, 80 kilometers north of Baghdad.
"The purpose is to restrict some of the movement that has been going on in and out of there," he said.
"In those areas where we have done that, we have in fact stemmed those attacks that have been occurring," claimed the American general.
"The only way you win in combat is to stay on the offensive." ///
Humiliation seems to be a major tactic of the U.S. army.
The Jesuits who helped to educate me taught me to think critically and for myself. You should have checked your Jesuit's credentials. You seem to have lost out on forming opinions independent of the kool kids'.
Tena, an organization called the Taliban made it quite impossible to get to the terrorist leaders responsible for 9/11 without a military response. It was in all the news. You should spend more time reading the news and less time with the kool kids.
Pie, no you aren't. You're under the delusion that you already know.
To the gent who keeps saying that he was born free and the military has nothing to do with assuring that he has the rights he feels entitled to; you are an idiot.
At the risk of dragging this thread back onto the topic . . .
Joshua Marshall appears to be hinting that the Pentagon-Ghorbanifar meetings may in some way be connected to the forged Niger-Iraq uranium documents, which turned up in the same city (Rome) as where the meetings were held.
IO, I'm waiting for an answer. And you're saying I'm not?
That must mean you have no convincing argument.
The troops in Iraq are dying for no good reason.
Explain why my statement is incorrect, or don't bother commenting.
Immediately Obvious: Oh, I'm glad to hear you've been taught "to think critically and for myself". Perhaps, then, you will be able to explain why you utilized a false dichotomy in making your arguments? After all, the avoidance of logical fallacies is a centerpiece of critical thinking. Perhaps you just had a momentary slip, and mean to apologize and stick to higher ground in the future?
I'd hate to think you were the sort to simply ignore points which contradicted your arguments on logical grounds, instead focusing on a few casual insults which are easy to throw back and forth. But of course, I wouldn't say: either you'll engage in rational debate when it is offered you, or you're just a troll. That would be a false dichotomy.
April Follies to I. O.: "I'd hate to think you were the sort to simply ignore points which contradicted your arguments on logical grounds ... "
Perish the thought. I'm sure I. O. is hard at work beaming counter-arguments our way using telepathy.
Love,
Philly G, are you IO?
Don't want to argue with you. We already know where we both stand.
Thersites: I was thinking much the same thing about "Bob Blackwill." Condoleeza Rice used to work for him, by the way.
As for: "Thanks for picking up the point of my handle."
Believe it or not it was, er, immediately obvious to me the first time I saw it -- but then I'm no "Jesuit."
Speaking of which, I'm also seeing a whole new side of George Fox and Gandhi here. A side they -- I mean, I -- never knew existed.
Love,
April Follies: Thanks for explaining your comment re Kissinger
being less brazen/blatant than North. I think Kissinger's lies
are more brazen than North's straightforward insanity -- but I
see what you meant.
Love,
April, we are in complete aggrement, but I think you need to read the comment a little closer. The presentation is the logic I saw used by the half educated idiots in this thread, not mine. The fallacies are 'Immediately Obvious'. You missed that it seems.
Cervantes, the story of thersites is one of a murderer and appeaser put in a coward's grave. Reframing that as noble opposition to his commander in chief is quite a stretch, but it's easy to believe that spin would be 'Immediately Obvious' to you.
an organization called the Taliban made it quite impossible to get to the terrorist leaders responsible for 9/11 without a military response.
Except, of course, for when the Taliban offered to give up bin Laden.
(http://www.google.com/search?
q=taliban+offered+bin+laden&sourceid=opera&
num=100&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-
God, what an annoying BORE you are, IO!
You pontificate, but you say NOTHING.
IO: So the logic in this phrase:
Continuing the logic, since the US government policy is to proactively fight Islamic fundamentalism in the War on Terror, fighting that war must be wrong, or monstrous if you will, and accomodation would be the policy or preference.
is not your logic? I just want to be sure I see what you're saying here. Are you, or are you not seriously stating that it is either a matter of supporting US government policy, or "accomodation"? This is the false dichotomy to which I refer.
"the story of thersites is one of a murderer and appeaser put
in a coward's grave. Reframing that as noble opposition to his
commander in chief is quite a stretch ...
Dear Immediately Obvious, you started out by making a claim
about what our character named "Thersites" must have had in
mind when choosing the pseudonym. If it's not yet clear to
you that your claim was mistaken (not to mention foolhardy),
there's little I can do to help you.
I have already responded to your original claim. If now you
want to make additional claims about what "the story of
thersites" means (to you? to Ignatius Loyola?), you should of
course feel free to lay out your schemas. Just please don't
be too, too surprised if I don't pay much attention.
Love,
wow, a troll has a tag-line he cleverly inserts into his text! Except for the fact that the Troilus and Cressida reference probably shouldn't be familiar to anyone but a Shakespeare scholar-the play was never done Wm's lifetime and has been described as "difficult", but obscure difficult Elizabethan drama is always on my mind! Here's something "gay and girly" for you, IO: what type of person finds everything, to be repetitive, immediately obvious-a Lao Tzu who quietly considers all sides, a Socrates who carefully questions everything, or a Limbaugh with pre-rehearsed Party Lines?
Except, of course, for when the Taliban offered to give up bin Laden.
OH SNAP!!!! Seraph bitch-slapped you hard right there!!!!
Dear kei & yuri, you're right about T & C, but "Thersites" in literature actually pre-dates Shakespeare by many, many years (hence the references to "the original").
Love,
To the gent who keeps saying that he was born free and the military has nothing to do with assuring that he has the rights he feels entitled to; you are an idiot.
Immediately Obvious
Perhaps this is a 'gent' from somewhere, say Iraq, who has failed to notice that the U.S. military has now assured his rights. Otherwise, you keep sounding like a third-grade civics teacher!
a jingo ate my country.
"I'm so tired of THIS crap:
US forces have admitted mistakenly killing nine children when they bombed a target in southern Afghanistan.
Collateral damage...
pie"
sounds like it wasnt a "mistake"; more like our leaders don't consider potential "Collateral damage" reason to learn more before attacking.
Geez. Ghorbanifar, again. No wonder the CIA has been shitting bricks.
The Bushistas are not only inhumanly corrupt, they're clueless about it.
The concept of colatteral damage is new in the political system and usually our politicians do not think beyond their own limitations.
======================================
Jacob
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