I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
that does it. cho's got my vote
Hire Cho to run the DNC after Terry retires...
Eric Alterman says the same thing. This is what had me so angry at Edwards and Sharpton when they hammered Dean with the racist label. They know he's nothing link a racist, but they don't want him to set the agenda. Even though class and how it's mixed up with the idea of race is the most important issue facing this country.
the only thing i have to add is, "fuck yeah - what she said!"
cho sounds silly with the PC line until you realize she means it the other way: not "femi-nazis" being PC but reactionaries making hay out of fictional PC stuff to turn fascist.
cho is saying (sort of) what we said in a very long past thread, "'better a crook than a fascist' and it may be this is not good enough a world to hope for 'better a decent human being than a crook'". We were responding to Kucinich loyalists, which we would be in a better time. Sad thing about Moot Point Dennis is he can surely do more good in the House that isn't White than otherwise; imagine Kucinich as the President, over Republican House and Senate and Court, alienating people rightward the way Bush violently alienated people left. Appearantly a lot of right-wingers are hoping for Dean because they think he'll be "easy" (Like Lieberman wouldn't be strangely familiar? Like Clark has been so good?). There are huge numbers of Americans who are keeping semi-quiet now but will rally around anybody not named Bush after the Democratic nomination, and I'm not talking about third parties. Also talk of Baker/Rove doing mysterious fixing just in time for October, but short of the Major Terror Event we take for granted it's pretty hard to imagine what will make Americans forget about their record job loss. Again, Rove is out of his league, but we need to be prepared for work, not now like stupid troll Paul going door to door now but ready for Whatever's Coming. We must have something that will bring an American to his/her senses within the "mindless patriotism" period immediately following a Major Event, perhaps saying, "Look, Bush is so incompetant, he let it happen twice!"
"I don't belong to any organized political party. I'm a Democrat."
Wil Rogers
This seems like a recipe for disaster. Does this mean that we shouldn't discuss ideas? Shouldn't think for ourselves? Should just take whatever scraps our masters (Terry and Soros and Bill) think we deserve.
Not me. I am going to think for myself. What is the point of kicking Bush and the Patriot Act out of office, if some sort of mindless liberal conformity is going to take its place. Group think is the real threat to civil liberties.
Not me
I think she means if we have 1/2 a pie and they have 1/2 a pie that sticks together, and we eat up half our our pie through cannibalism, that the ones who have a whole pie are going to win in a contest that is won by who has the most pie.
Yes, Rummy and I went to the same school.
Does this sound kinky?
Whole pie = half a pie. See a 1/2 pie will beat a 1/4 of a pie.
I think it's time for my nap.
Learn to read, "not me". You missed the point.
And to think. For someone who professes to "think for myself", you use an awful lot of stupid cliches.
The Green Party needs you, BTW. Or the Libertarian Party, if you swing that way. I'm sure that we can scrape up bus fare for you so you can get over there right now.
Approx 1 out of very 45 words in this diatribe is the F bomb. Got to assume that the mental capacity behind this witless screed is directly correlated to the writers marginal vocabulary.
"What is the point of kicking Bush and the Patriot Act out of office, if some sort of mindless liberal conformity is going to take its place." ???!!!
We have gone backwards into fascism and you're worried, like a good Stalinist, about the loyalty of every single member of the resistance? Are you crazy? Go ahead and split if you think Dean, Clark or Kerry are imposing "groupthink", if you have so little patience or so low an opinion of your sect that this must be the time we change, it can't wait, not ever. You're aware, of course, that none of the original feminists lived to vote. Change takes time, it takes unfair portions of time, and impatience leads to failure and desperation. Soros "our master"?! What the hell are you smoking? We agree the DLC is not a real alternative-to "normal republicans"-but this is the successful implementation of the Laden Jihad, a polarized world with America wasting everything on insane crusades! We'd vote for a lot of disgusting sons-of-bitches who're better than Bush before making a "principled[, yet Gothically doomed to fail, probably with wind blowing through Byronic locks and impending rain] stand".
everyone, or else please positively disprove:
better a crook than a fascist
(and it's not like Dean is such a crook anyway)
Krazy Krab all up in my head and shit!Cho is Da Bomb!
I love margaret cho's rants. her personal story is very inspiring too.
Hey Ariel? Fuck Bush. Fuck Bush. Fuck Bush. Fuck Bush. Fuck Bush. Fuck Bush. Fuck Bush. Fuck Bush.
There, that's about 30% F-word.
f bomb you ariel, you f-bombing mother f-bomb.
see how easy it is to raise the f-bomb per word? and i got a f-bombing 800 on the SAT verbal.
Approx 1 out of very 45 words in this diatribe is the F bomb. Got to assume that the mental capacity behind this witless screed is directly correlated to the writers marginal vocabulary. Ariel
Why is a willingness to use the F-bomb, even frequently, an indication of a lower mental capacity?
I fuckin GUARANTEE you that I'm fuckloads smarter than you are, and there's just a plethora of shit out there that I'm unwilling to take it in the ass for anymore. Sometimes the most appropriate words are four-motherfuckin-letters long.
Hope this helps, fuckwad.
And your last sentence should have read: " ... is directly correlated to the WRITER'S marginal vocabulary." ... Missing that apostrophe makes you look like a fucking simpleton.
What a cool writer. Damfacrats had no idea.
What is the point of kicking Bush and the Patriot Act out of office, if some sort of mindless liberal conformity is going to take its place. Group think is the real threat to civil liberties.
This reminds me of friends who said they wouldn't have kids until they could "afford it." Then as they passed 30 they started rushing to get pregnant even though they were still crushed under student loans, mortgages, credit cards, etc. Why? Because if they waited until they could "afford it" they'd never have kids. Life is what happens while you're making other plans ... or waiting for "perfect" circumstances. Take the imperfect change (imperfect but still better than the status quo) and work on making it better.
Not me, that's why Democrats lose.
Cho hits something on the head here. The more you think about it, the more you realize that the religious right and South Park Republicans are something of an unholy alliance. By rights, they ought to be at each others' throats. Instead, they're at ours.
We piss and moan about thinking for ourselves. Great, we think for ourselves. Our ability to do this may be laudable, but it's a reason there's no such thing as entrenched liberal talk radio.
I once asked a NASCAR fan why he made a point of buying a product advertised on the vehicles. I thought it kind of brain-damaged, to automatically go out and buy Tide or DuPont paints or whatnot. He said to me, "Those companies sponsor something that I enjoy, so I am going to patronize them so that this thing that I enjoy will continue to thrive."
We're too smart for that. It's a big reason we find ourselves in the position we're in.
oh, and Ariel, that would be
"...correlated to the writer{[(')]}s marginal..."
but we guess if Cho swears she must not have any idea what she's talking about. And any who agree with her must be potty mouthed idiots. If you say FUCK as in FUCK LIKE NEWLYWEDS TRULY IN LOVE as in FUCK LIKE YOU THINK THERE IS NOTHING OUTSIDE OF YOUR LOVER'S KISS as in FUCK LIKE KERRY, the terra'ists will have already won. Actually, it might just be if you actually fuck (especially if you're an unmarried homo) the terra'ists...
**************************************************
**************************
Kerry's Corollary to Godwin/Stranger: Speak to the MOTHERFUCKING issue, not just its presentation. You can object to "decline of language", etc, ask that people try to be nice and so on, but if all you have to say is "rather than rebut or refute anything my opponent said I'd like to announce that swearing is bad, mmkay?"
YOU FUCKING LOSE MOTHERFUCKER
MmmmmMargaret Cho.
"The Cho Bomb."
I'm her's for the asking, anytime she wants me, 4 ever.
I love it when she talks dirty.
Approx 1 out of very 45 words in this diatribe is the F bomb. Got to assume that the mental capacity behind this witless screed is directly correlated to the writers marginal vocabulary.
Translation: "I have no useful contribution to this discussion, and I have no intelligent comment to make on this subject, so I will nitpick the writer's choice of words."
Fuck you, you fucking fuck.
***Why is a willingness to use the F-bomb, even frequently, an indication of a lower mental capacity?***
Would you be so kind as to identify one single significant political writing or speech in American history that contains an F bomb?
I thought so.
The fact that no one does it (except John effing Kerry!) in an indication that the overwhelming majority of Americans don't take it as a sign of intelligence. Quite the opposite, actually.
However, it is a free country and unfortunately inarticulate, profane people seem to be multiplying rapidly. Great example of how our public schools are failing us.
Saying the Fuck word is rude.
Not saying the fuck word is polite.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of people in history said the f word and historians said that they said something else.
George Washington: Oh fuck there's the British, let's take this fucking boat and go over and fight those fucking redcoats.
There's plenty of political writing which contains nasty words, unless you limit yourself to "speeches in public by politicians."
Cho, you go girl.
A little passion is a good thing.
And don't forget:
Bush: Fuck Saddam, we're taking him out!
Atrios - Great post! Thank you - this is fabulous.
O-F*ing-T: Parent Company Name Removed From Halliburton Corporate HQ, Renamed KBR
Too many passers-by throwing eggs? I guess they hope the KBR name is lesser known.
"Would you be so kind as to identify one single significant political writing or speech in American history that contains an F bomb?
I thought so."
No, couldn't find "fuck", but we did get fucking swamped by all these speeches, laws, debates and papers about something called "NIGGER". Is that the proof of the intellectual infalliability of American political writing you seem to be taking for granted? And what about all the art that uses "fuck" so centrally? Are Erica Jong or Henry Miller or William Burroughs (etc) morons for using "FUCK"?
***There's plenty of political writing which contains nasty words, unless you limit yourself to "speeches in public by politicians."***
I am simply pointing out the obvious. Those who choose to lard their public speech wih F bombs and similar are not taken seriously in the world of politics. Like it or not, blogging is by definition a PUBLIC act.
Fear of a Black Planet
An ultra-political rap album that changed the fucking landscape of the entire world all those years ago.
And that's just FoaBP, and there is *so* much more hip hop and if you read any Margaret Cho, you will hear about the beauty of Hip Hop and the answer to the whole question. We attack Tupac or Latifah Snoop or Eminem for being racist or sexist or homophobic when they are today's poets who are speaking out in the language of song, they are the new bards and Shakespeare would have been a hardcore gangsta rapper were he born today, but don't listen to me, because the Cho Bomb says it so much more elegantly than i. That's why she's the Cho Bomb.
Ignore her at your own peril for that road leads to ignorance and you're better than that because you love yourself, you'll read her, surreptitiously and that's fine, as long as you read her. You'll get it, you're smart enough. You just need to be in a place where you're ego isn't hurt by admitting that she has a valid point that you just might find yourself agreeing with. Take your time. We'll wait.
The Green Party needs you, BTW. Or the Libertarian Party, if you swing that way. I'm sure that we can scrape up bus fare for you so you can get over there right now
zizka, you’re a real uniter aren’t you.
Inarticulate people use fuck and profanity? You fucking idiot - inarticulate like, oh, Henry Miller and John Barth, just to name two off the top of my head. Or how about David Mamet - yah, he's inarticulate alright.
Who died and appointed Ariel the Blog Censor and all-round arbiter of bloggy good taste?
"Hey Sally, wanna fuck?"
-Thomas Jefferson (1796)
The fact that no one does it (except John effing Kerry!)
"F___ Saddam. we're taking him out." Those were the words of President George W. Bush, who had poked his head into the office of National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.
(March 2002, CNN)
it was the same George W. Bush who, in front of his daughters, told Wall Street Journal Washington Bureau Chief Al Hunt: “You no good fucking son of a bitch. I will never fucking forget what you wrote.”
At a 1999, fundraiser in Washington, then-candidate Bush told a group of Republicans that his goal as President would be to “reverse all the fuckups of the Clinton administration and then fuck the Democrats over.”
at the 1988 Republican Convention, Hartford Courant associate editor David Fink struck up a conversation with George W. "When you're not talking politics," Fink asked the vice president's son, "what do you and [your father] talk about?"
"Pussy," George W. replied.
I'm so tired of this Republican-manufactured sanctimony.
American politicians were fucking immoral bastards who clung to slavery long after England, etc gave it up, who then clung to racism until...the present in some cases. Ariel's idea that American political writings are inherently bright (nnnnno...), do not contain "fuck" (yet to be proven), and that therefore intelligence is mutually exclusive of "fuck" use, besides being unproven, is a bit of a stretch. Is the Bible a complete waste of time, of no value as literature, etc? Because that's where "fuck" comes from.
Anyway, the point is, Ariel has lost the thread unless she can show herself not in violation of
Kerry's corollary to Godwin/Stranger,
or, cowardly avoiding the issue in favor of whining about its presentation, or, "swearing is bad, mmkay?"
I am simply pointing out the obvious. Those who choose to lard their public speech wih F bombs and similar are not taken seriously in the world of politics. Like it or not, blogging is by definition a PUBLIC act.
Fuck that ... blogging is whatever the fuck you make of it. This could be Cho's journal that she chooses to share, and she does with it whatever the fuck she wants.
And just to reiterate ... GW Bush: "Fuck saddam! We're taking him out."
People critical of a swear words used in heated diatribe who have no incliniation to actually discuss the ISSUES are fucked in the head. This was Cho's BLOG ... not a fucking letter to the AP regarding Nedra fucking Pickler!!!
****Inarticulate people use fuck and profanity? You fucking idiot - inarticulate like, oh, Henry Miller and John Barth, just to name two off the top of my head. Or how about David Mamet - yah, he's inarticulate alright.***
Last time I looked none of these individuals ran for public office and did so making profane speeches or comments.
We all know intuitively that profane public speech labels us as something other than intellectual giants. Whay would anyone want to belabor this breathtakingly obvious point?
"Last time I looked none of these individuals ran for public office"
Unlike all of your fellow candidates here on this thread. Jesus, this is like Patton calling his men "darn good killers", ashamed of the word "damn" but not of the word "killers".
Ariel, please respond to Cho's point, not to "one word every 45".
Ariel - my last nod today to feeding trolls -
you are a fuckwit, and know not of what you attempt to speak.
Great example of how our public schools are failing us.
First *Virtus* criticizes public eduation and now Ariel. My, my.
I'll bet that Ariel is in favor of vouchers.
Hey Ariel, if you don't take us seriously because of our swearing why are you still here?
Don't you have a dog you could be copulating with or something?
Cho's "fuck" is just part of another realm of discourse. Dismissing the discourse because it repeatedly CALLS FOR the use of that word is dismissing the content of what that discourse has to say.
Ariel reminds me of the liberal lilly-white suburban-raised college student confronted for the first time with a working class or inner-city student in an in-class debate. The other person gets involved and starts speaking the way she does at home--passionately, with "swear words," interruptions, and what the surburbanite interprets as "aggressive behavior." How does the surburbanite respond? By throwing up his or her hands and backing away, muttering something that can be translated as, "You're not talking the way I'm used to talking, so we're not going to talk."
Tena:
Your frustation relies on the lack of "paloma" you din't get last night. Well, regardles of your frustation, I'm aware that we are gonna get our asses kicked. Tax breaks, macho image (although he's such a pussy), blunt foreign policy, etc. Yup!
***I'll bet that Ariel is in favor of vouchers.***
Yep, you bet. It's one of the few tools available to save the stinking morass into which our public schools have sunk. Those who are afraid to experiment even a little with the concept are the true reactionaries in our society. Better to let another generation of chidren be sacricified to lifelong ignorance and poverty than even experiment with something that might upset the education establishment.
who the fuck is this pichiflay and exactly how does his "comment" not qualify as disgusting harassment without any underlying point?
pichiflay - I have no idea what you are attempting to say and furthermore, I have absolutely no interest in knowing.
I think Ariel just needs to get laid.
ariel,
Cho's use of the word fuck in her blog entry is what you call making a point.
It underscores the content.
Fuck yeah she's mad.
ari
am confused about the vouchers thing
schools suck because of partial abandonement
full abandonement will solve this?
hurn...
Look, I was in Louisiana when Edwards ran against Duke, and I feel like that single race may be the most accurate political event of the last quarter-century in symbolizing everything that's wrong with politics.
But I also supported Edwards, who admitted he was corrupt, enthusuastically (I would have voted for him, but I was only 16 at the time).
I see this ppresidential election as a lot like that. Bush may not be quite as bad as Duke (though I:m sure some would disagree), but we need to face facts - the Democrat you like the least is also better than Edwards. We need to get behind the Democrat this year; it really is that important. I can understand wanting to get behind Kucinich, or Mosely Braun, or even Sharpton, but we need to face facts - they're not getting the nomination.
**8Cho's use of the word fuck in her blog entry is what you call making a point.
It underscores the content***
Totally ineffective and you know it. Childish, immature and pointless.
Strange, but I find Cho's statement extremely effective and suspect that the trolls do as well. Otherwise, they wouldn't be trolling.
"Totally ineffective and you know it. Childish, immature and pointless."
Ari, here's Cho's idea, translated into Doddering:
"better a crook than a fascist."
Disagree or Agree? *Please* answer.
Ariel, what evidence can you cite to prove your amusing little statement about public education?
Both of my daughters had excellent public school educations in several different school systems - Ohio, Iowa, Illinois, and Michigan. Really excellent with excellent teachers. Therefore, I find your hyperbolic statement to be false and totally unfair.
***ari
am confused about the vouchers thing
schools suck because of partial abandonement
full abandonement will solve this?***
Liberals are such unbeliavable cowards. If you are so certain it will crash and burn, then let it be tried a few places and use the outcome to kill the concept. Put it to the test!
We all know intuitively that profane public speech labels us as something other than intellectual giants.
I don't mean to beat up on you, or belabor this point, but this is most certainly not true among the culture-producing classes. Such elites already know they are "smart" (or, at least they like to think they are) and, furthermore, aren't interested in being conventionally so (or at least, in appearing to be). I've spent a good hunk of my life around artists, scientists, philosophers and other sorts of eggheads, both inside and outside of officially-sanctioned society, and it seems to me this crowd gives sailors a run for their money in the profanity department.
Now, inarticulateness is indeed a different kettle of fish, and one can tell when someone is swearing as a crutch. Ditto for most of what passes for cliched attempts at "shocking the bourgeoisie". Much shitty rap--and fine art--falls into that category. But that hardly seems to be the case with the piece by Ms. Cho. I mean, shit, DID YOU EVEN READ IT, or were you just counting profanities? It's a glorious stream of white hot truth straight from her soul into ours, with no filter--a classic cri de coeur.
Now, maybe it didn't effect you that way--and that's cool. And maybe the word "fuck" is what blocked it for you. That's cool, too. Art is about taking chances, and maybe Cho's fell flat with you. But I don't think your generalities hold water.
As a plea for love and solidarity in the face of oppression and in a time of political crisis, it is difficult to find better. And as a clever and subtle counterattack to bourgeois liberal notions of "consistency" it's even better.
P.S. I have to gently disagree with kei & yuri that she was primarily directing this at reactionary elements--she was, to be sure, but she most definitely is directing it at our own tribe--in fact most likely primarily so.
Ben - nice comment.
What the Democrats need right now, and badly, is a unified vision of what we can offer the country. The country needs more than just a candidate - it needs something to hang its hopes on, and we need to be clear about what we're offering and why.
Cowards? The lily-white 'burbs of my city are full of the truly brave then, I guess. Bet you're from a similar 'clave Ariel!
With untold numbers of people being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and untold numbers dying of AIDS as Baby Bush does everything he can to make sure it spreads, and untold numbers of people being thrown in poverty as their jobs are shipped to the slave markets in Asia, Latin America and elsewhere, a few four letter words are less offensive than the headlines and more appropriate.
My greatest performace, by audience reaction, was when I sang the great Tom Paxton song I'm In Love With Molly Bloom in the Music Major's lounge. I love that song.
Sorry, make that I love that fuckin' song.
mondo dentro: we meant what makes sense in real life, not what she clearly intended. Everyone's upset about "feminazis". Stop and consider how fucking utterly cool it would be if there were "feminazis": rapists strung up by their unmentionables from lampposts, education permanently off the budgetary chopping block, abortion etc guaranteed and the fuckwad terrorists who try to intimidate and assassinate and burn and bomb publicly castrated, Air Force men raped savagely and so on.
***I don't mean to beat up on you, or belabor this point, but this is most certainly not true among the culture-producing classes.***
Well mondo, thanks for the thoughtful reply. You make some good points. Nevertheless, it seems patently unarguable to me that, with the exception of a few eccentric artists, no one in our culture deliberately uses F bombs when speaking to large groups of people if they have hopes of being taken seriously. To do so would be delusional.
Lesbian Avengers Rule, says one fag (me, sensitive fucks)!
Ari, you're still not answering: should we opt for a crook over a fascist or hold out for a purer more utopian future?
There are parts of the conservative party that despise the other parts, fucking hate them more than we hate each other, yet they stand together, because they know it is the only way for them to win.
The other side of that arrangement is that they don’t really win, the people brokering the deals win, the vast majority of conservatives have tended to loose out.
We need solidarity to win no doubt about it, but it will be fragile solidarity if the only selling point is the awfulness of our opponents. There will be times when a candidate crosses the line by putting their self interest above the long term interests of the party and we can express our disapproval in no uncertain terms but I don’t think we should fear debate it’s hard enough to get people to pay attention to what’s going on without dismissing the process as unnecessary.
***We need solidarity to win no doubt about it, but it will be fragile solidarity if the only selling point is the awfulness of our opponents.***
This is EXACTLY why you won't win. You cannot beat a reasonably popular incumbent president with nothing but hate. You must have a credible panoply of "new ideas" or "fresh concepts" and the dems have absolutely none.
Let's give Ariel the iron-butt award and move on.
What Cho said is effective within her target audience, which does not include Ariel. Cho is not running for office, nor is she a spokesman for anyone but herself.
There's gotta be a name for the switch Ariel did, between actually condemning Cho as stupid at first, to later pretending that he was just pointing out that many other people think people who say fuck a lot are stupid.
But ariel doesn't agree with us or Cho about anything else. He's just here to fling shit, so give him (her?) the shitflinging award too.
Ariel is having a fight with Atrios a couple of threads down. He's supporting supply side, if you can believe that!
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/so...y/
A0844005.html
There is no incontrovertible evidence that the use of vouchers has improved the education of students using them, either at private or public schools, but often it also is not clear whether poor educational results are in fact the fault of the schools or the result of other causes.
So, Ariel, on what do you base your claims about public education vs school vouchers?
The voucher program has been tried. I'm surprised you didn't know that.
Ariel/Virtus?
More personalities than Sybil.
F bombs left and right. Sure that wasn't written by John Kerry?
Stop and consider how fucking utterly cool it would be if there were "feminazis"..[imagined scenes of carnage follow]
OK, I get it. Yeah--esthetically, way cool, in a heartless urban hipster sort of way. Apocalyptically, even cooler. But in human terms, horrible, because then we'd be talking about a Civil War II. But just the other day at the tail end of a long and dying thread here I played with my own "left wing eliminationist" fantasies. A lot of us are talking about being Armed Liberals. There's paranoia in the air, and we are starting to respond to the harsh rhetoric coming from the Rightist Hate Machine (even while level-headed types like Tacitus think guys like Misha are just loonies and that Fascism--the real "F-word", by the way--can't happen here).
We are in a time much the cultural chaos and rising division that existed prior to the CW I. Except now "Confederate Culture" has mutated and metastisized, erasing geographical borders. Everyone on all sides feels surrounded by The Enemy.
So Feminazis vs. Freepers: cool? Maybe in a movie. In real life it makes my blood run cold.
I like Cho's radical, inconsistent, messy call to LOVE better. Maybe with a little ass kicking thrown in. It's not some namby-pamby hippie love--but a radical revolutionary form of UNITY she's trying to inspire.
No. Untrue. Apathy and exhaustion of Clinton killed Gore, made Bush credible. You are essentially shifting into stranger's law, saying we are "bush haters" but have no substance of our own. We have real ideas, Rove is the one with fly-by-seat-of-pants, backroom deals way of doing things. Thanks for finally speaking to the issue two hours later, fucker!
***The voucher program has been tried. I'm surprised you didn't know that.***
Of course I know that. On a relatively tiny scale with generally inconclusive results. I would argue that the tests to date are so few in number as to be totally insufficient to demonstrate anything with regards to a true community-wide implementation.
I think Ariel is smoking santorum
mondo dentro, for your sake, have sex! it was a damn joke! it's not like women are going to take up arms anytime soon, or if they did, Ashcroft wouldn't jump out of his layer of Crisco to smack them down!
Fear no word.
Think of the F-bomb as just a mid-sentence explanation point.
You must have a credible panoply of "new ideas" or "fresh concepts" and the dems have absolutely none.
What we have is good ideas, the fresh concept will be actually using them.
"Why can't we all just get along?"
--Rodney King
On a relatively tiny scale with generally inconclusive results.
Oh, so the results were inconclusive, so we should try it on a larger scale, and we'll get more conclusive results?
Is that what you're saying? You're kidding, right?
Do you think there's some magic formula that guarantees a child will receive a good education? What about external influences? Do you admit that they affect a child's ability to learn?
Remember the movie "z", (now available on dvd by wellspring) where a right-wing tyrant bans ten million innocuous things, to include the letter "z"? now imagine the ariels of the world set upon by graffitti "fucks" tagged everywhere...
Quick! I need to hug somebody!
(Only liberals need apply!)
***Do you think there's some magic formula that guarantees a child will receive a good education?***
Actually, yes there is a magic formula. it is called "significant parental involvement" and every failing scholl has very little of it.
Vouchers would at least allow those children fortunate to have parent(s) who care to join together in sufficient numbers to oversome the catastrophic consequences of attending a school where the large majority of parents don't care.
I should have included one more sentence in my other post:
By the end of the 20th cent. various kinds of voucher programs were being implemented in 31 U.S. states and were utilized by nearly 65,000 students. There is no incontrovertible evidence that the use of vouchers has improved the education of students using them, either at private or public schools, but often it also is not clear whether poor educational results are in fact the fault of the schools or the result of other causes.
65,000 students. I wouldn't call that a tiny number.
mondo dentro, for your sake, have sex!
I do, frequently, with all varieties of flora and fauna. It is, however, angst-ridden sex.
...where the large majority of parents don't care.
Where on earth are you getting your "numbers"?
And where are these schools located that have all these uncaring parents?
"'mondo dentro, for your sake, have sex!'
I do, frequently, with all varieties of flora and fauna. It is, however, angst-ridden sex."
No, again, I was fucking joking. Real meaning was "have a sense of humor, relax, God."
***65,000 students. I wouldn't call that a tiny number***
Compared to the numbers of students at risk in failing school systems, your number is nothing, absolutely nothing.
I repeat, vouchers has NEVER been tried on a community wide scale in a manner designed to prove or disprove its effectiveness.
Ariel, do you think that every single child should be able to succeed in school? Are you a teacher?
No, again, I was fucking joking.
Like, duh. So was I.
And I thought it was supposed to be "we" not "I". I little continuity problem, eh?
ariel, let's say the whole problem is we should go back to before any laws or schools took our kids away from us. The various reasons for this:
-abusive parents
-parents not having time as they have to work
still exist. How to solve? Perhaps a Dean econmy would be more condusive to home-schooling than a jobless recession Bush economy.
***I repeat, vouchers has NEVER been tried on a community wide scale in a manner designed to prove or disprove its effectiveness.***
And why is that? Teachers unions are SCARED TO DEATH it might disrupt the status quo and ultimately require that they actually be good teachers. When was the last time a teachers union did anything to actually benefit a student. Won't happen because that is not thier reason for existing.
"'we' not 'I'".
we're divided on whether you can get laid. yuri speaks for herself.
Mondo:
How do you have sex with flora?
we're divided on whether you can get laid.
Yeah. But that's why the Goddess invented hands--not to mention intoxicating beverages.
*** Won't happen because that is not thier reason for existing.***
And guess which party is deeply beholden to the teachers unions!
The compassionate and all-caring dems are supporting the very organization in this country that desperately desires to keep doing all the same bad things that have caused our school system to deteriorate so much in recent years. The status quo is disastrous for public school education and the dems are working hand-in-glove to keep it that way!!
"Teachers unions are SCARED TO DEATH it might disrupt the status quo and ultimately require that they actually be good teachers."
As long as you're passing judgement on extraordinarily hard-working people you have no experience of, may we suggest those lazy mothers who don't hurt enough in giving birth?
How do you have sex with flora?
Man on Dogwood.
Mondo:
Excellent answer, belying a wit I wouldn't have fucking believed (just kidding, of course)
Ariel, just remember that this is the public education system that won the cold war and it’s responsible for the great American standard of livin’, mend it don’t end it.
Ariel, where are you getting your *facts*? I'm afraid you're going to have to provide some verification or else I will have to totally disregard what you're saying. You're just throwing out Rushlike rhetoric.
In my experience, which is more than yours, only a very small percentage of teachers were mediocre. The rest were caring, committed, hard-working, and very good at what they did.
Your comments show a total ignorance of public education and insult the majority who do the best job possible with the resources they have.
Vouchers would at least allow those children fortunate to have parent(s) who care to join together in sufficient numbers to oversome the catastrophic consequences of attending a school where the large majority of parents don't care.
And what, then, of the students left behind, those unfortunate enough to be saddled with parents who, to use your terminology, "don't care." Can we at least agree that vouchers consign them to fall through the cracks?
***Ariel, just remember that this is the public education system that won the cold war and it’s responsible for the great American standard of livin’, mend it don’t end it***
In many inner cities it has become a parody of what education is all about. I would bet that the quality of the average public education has dropped more in the past 30 years than it rose in the 100 years rpior thereto.
Well, to evaluate such a 'bet' we'd need to agree on some sort of metric. Average scores on a standardized test? College enrollment? Nothing's perfect, but we'd have to agree on something or it's yet another meaningless factless assertion from Ariel.
A sizeable majority of people are very happy with their public schools (surprising even me), though a sizeable majority think there's something wrong with *other peoples' public schools.*
***And what, then, of the students left behind, those unfortunate enough to be saddled with parents who, to use your terminology, "don't care." Can we at least agree that vouchers consign them to fall through the cracks?***
Excellent question. The simple hard truth is that if parents don't care about their child's education, the child is doomed to a life of struggle. Vouchers do nothing for these kids. No government program can possibly hope to make up for lousy parents. And lousy parents are everywhere and multiplying. Their kids are beyond any true help form you and me. lets focus on those kids we can help - those with parent(s) who care.
I would bet that the quality of the average public education has dropped more in the past 30 years than it rose in the 100 years rpior thereto.
Sorry, I disagree. Not based on my experience.
BTW, before you go spouting more silliness, what kind of educational experiences have your children had?
***Nothing's perfect, but we'd have to agree on something or it's yet another meaningless factless assertion from Ariel***
No, actually it's just my opinion and no more requiring of "proof' than your witless observations.
Most "satisfaction" surveys performed in inner city schools don't reveal any deep problems. Why? Because the majority of parents dont' respond or don't care one way or the other.
Excellent question. The simple hard truth is that if parents don't care about their child's education, the child is doomed to a life of struggle. Vouchers do nothing for these kids. No government program can possibly hope to make up for lousy parents. And lousy parents are everywhere and multiplying. Their kids are beyond any true help form you and me. lets focus on those kids we can help - those with parent(s) who care.
OMG. Abandon them? They can't be helped?
Sorry, Ariel. You just lost your argument. No child left behind.
Get lost, you creep.
Here we have a great example (as if any more were needed!) of the knee-jerk liberal defense of the public school system. It is falling into such utter chaos in most of our large cities that private schools are bursting at the seams with new enrolees and new private schools can't be built fast enough. And yet you people bury your heads in the sand and ask for "proof" that things are getting worse. Are the dems so truly bankrupt that they cannot even acknowledge that which is overwhelmingly obvious?
Obvious to whom?
I repeat, do you have children? What educational experiences have they had?
Or are you just basing all this crap on your experience?
For a comprehensive overview of school privatization check out:
http://
www.mediatransparency.com...ivatization.htm
***OMG. Abandon them? They can't be helped?
Sorry, Ariel. You just lost your argument. No child left behind.
Get lost, you creep.***
Spoken like a true liberal.
The schools in certain parts of my city have literally masses of children that are effectively abandoned by their parents. What, pray tell, would you do for the poor 10 year-old who can't read or write because his parents didn't give a damn? "Mainstream" him so that he can interfere with the education of those who want to learn? Well that's what w're doing now and it ain't working. Frankly there is no mechanism in our society to deal effectively with the offspring of bad parents. We have refused to acknowledge this problem for many years and people are voting with their feet - to private schools wherever possible.
What is your suggestion for these kids?
Ariel, there's nothing knee-jerk about my beliefs on this matter at all.
You are officially consigning a generation of kids - and let's face it, the vast majority of them are going to be poor, minority kids - to the scrap heap. As a parent, I understand the desire to get your own child out of a situation where his or her ability to learn is being infringed upon. But also as a parent, I can absolutely not condone, under any circumstances, the absolute abandonment of children whose only crime may be to have been born to parents who are too screwed up to know or to care.
Vouchers are an absolute recipe to worsen poverty, for the benefit of the white parents who want to flee integrated schools. Spin it any way you like, with all sorts of exhortations about people who won't deign to help themselves. But we're talking about kids here. And your utter lack of compassion for any but perhaps your own make me wonder not about your politics.
It makes me wonder about your humanity.
What city is that, Ariel?
***You are officially consigning a generation of kids - and let's face it, the vast majority of them are going to be poor, minority kids - to the scrap heap.***
Bgno64, please remove the "I'm more compassionate than you" chip from your shoulder. This issue can never be remedied by weepy handwriging about a lost generation consigned to the scrap heap. Neither I nor you set them on this path. The unfortunate circumstances of their birth did so and you simply cannot change that with sloppy sentimentalism.
If my children were unfortunate enough to attend a school where the majority of parents didn't give a crap, I would move heaven and earth to get them out. Anyone that cares would do the same.
Public school is for EDUCATION. Please don't view it is some great social incubator where all societies racial and class ills are supposed to be cured. That view is a big part of the problem.
Like it or not we do have a huge lost generation in our public schools and I would love to hear from you, Bgno64, just how you would save these poor souls.
***I can absolutely not condone, under any circumstances, the absolute abandonment of children whose only crime may be to have been born to parents who are too screwed up to know or to care.***
So, what are you saying? You want to adopt these kids? Or is this just a liberal "makes me feel good and superior to say it" kind of statement? What is your solution to a classroom in which 75% of the kids come from families that only send their kids to school because it's the law?
There are voucher systems of one kind or another all over this country. why don't you do a bit of research on the performance of these systems - the impact on cost/child as well as the impact on student performance - both for students who remain in public schools and for those who use their vouchers.. Then, if the evidence is there, you can claim that vouchers help students, and do it cost effectively. If, however, you haven't done this research - quite likely as you seem to be unaware that such programs even exist - you are just talking out your ass on yet another thread.
There must be a DSM-IV diagnosis for those who enjoy flaunting their ignorance. I'll email Krauthammer and ask him.
I'm not viewing it as a place where society's ills might be cured. I'm viewing it as a place where kids might get an education.
Poor kids from screwed-up families are every bit as deserving of an education as your kids and my kid. More than that, they have the exact same right to an education as your kid or my kid.
The system you're creating is one that cannot help but be separate but not equal. Does that ring a bell? How, after legally disemboweling one such system, do you think you can create another?
This ain't survival of the fittest, lord of the jungle. How is it possible to create a system whereby we willfully leave some of the lowest-income kids behind and expect that it won't come back to bite us on the ass later on, when those kids return to the system - say, on the penal end.
You think you're grand "plan" won't make this bad problem worse?
Why should these kids be society's problem? Because they are. Your brother's keeper, right? I don't recall anything about the brother's keeper business not applying when it becomes inconvenient.
Atrios, you have a consistent desire to turn the debate to the trivial. No one, NO ONE can prove or disprove the effectiveness of vouchers as one partial possible remedy for what's ailing our public schools. But your near pathological insistence that such effectiveness be scientifically "proven" before you are willing to give it a larger test is positively paranoid. If one were suggesting a new approach to a system that was working well, I might buy into your resistance. But such fierce resistance to trying something new on a totally decrepit and chaotic system such as our public schools suggests that you have ulterior motives. Such as a near religious commitment to maintaining the democratic party pwer base.
Like it or not we do have a huge lost generation in our public schools and I would love to hear from you, Bgno64, just how you would save these poor souls.
Goddamn. To think I momentarily gave you the benefit of the doubt. These apocalyptic sweeping generalizations are the first sure sign of a big load of horseshit comin' down the pipe.
Huge lost generation? I dunno, maybe. If so, what makes this a "Liberal" problem? Was the lost generation during Dickens' time due to Liberalism? In our time, it seems to me that a culture where greed is the only value eats into the importance of education in people's minds far more than some Liberal boogieman--and that is a Conservative artifact, not a Liberal one.
So, what are you saying? You want to adopt these kids? Or is this just a liberal "makes me feel good and superior to say it" kind of statement? What is your solution to a classroom in which 75% of the kids come from families that only send their kids to school because it's the law?
OK, you want ideas? How about this:
Absolute tax breaks - I mean 100 percent federal tax forgiveness - for teachers who wish to teach in such an environment and can prove (via testing - yes, testing) that they are qualified to do so.
In fact, screw vouchers that permit parents to move kids out of such districts altogether. Create a voucher system that substantially rewards only those who will move their kids into such an environment, to help even the odds.
***Why should these kids be society's problem? Because they are. Your brother's keeper, right? I don't recall anything about the brother's keeper business not applying when it becomes inconvenient.***
Fine praiseworthy sentiment and just what I would expect from a liberal. Are you capable of suggesting a solution or are you limited to just making anyone who disagrees with you out to be a heartless baby killer? In a perfect world, parents wouldn't ignore their child's education. But, in the world I live in, they do. What, pray tell, would you do to solve the inner city public school problem? We are anxious to hear.
Ariel, your comments are full of exaggerated nonsense. Unless you can back up your claims with facts, you're wasting your time and ours. I don't agree with your statement that the public school system is in disrepair. I've told you why, based on my experiences and those of my children. You've chosen to ignore those comments.
You don't even have children. What authority do you have to come here and spout? You have no credibility.
You don't even know what you're talking about. You're just repeating someone else's propaganda. Sorry. You won't convince anyone with that.
There must be a DSM-IV diagnosis for those who enjoy flaunting their ignorance.
Unfortunately, ignorance isn't a psych diagnosis ... however, Ariel may just be dealing with immature/poorly developed coping mechanisms, such as projection and denial.
***Huge lost generation? I dunno, maybe. If so, what makes this a "Liberal" problem?***
Who said it was a liberal problem?
Ah, I missed that. You don't have kids, Ariel? Come back when you do.
totally decrepit and chaotic system?
Whose bullshit are you ingesting whole? That is without doubt one of the most overwrought statements of the century. The public schools have problems, always have of some kind. But I wonder how many private schools go out of business each year? I've never seen that number, but it could prove interesting.
And how many private schools, do you suppose, have had problems with the law, for one reason or another? Hmmm --- I'd really like to know.
Before you start throwing around words like decrepit and chaotic, you'd best come with something to back them up. I know many outstanding public schools. I know of some piss poor private schools. But I know of no school that is decrepit and chaotic.
***Absolute tax breaks - I mean 100 percent federal tax forgiveness - for teachers who wish to teach in such an environment and can prove (via testing - yes, testing) that they are qualified to do so***
Bgno64, thanks for providing an idea. Unfortunately you seem to be under the mistaken belief that the problem results from insufficiently motivated or trained teachers. Obviously you don't have any recent experience in this area. There is no teacher than can make unmotivated children learn if the parents aren't involved. Send in the finest cadre of teacher in the world and pay them fortunes - the result will be the same. it isn't a teaching failure, it is a PARENTING FAILURE!!!
***I don't agree with your statement that the public school system is in disrepair. I've told you why, based on my experiences and those of my children. You've chosen to ignore those comments.
***
OK I won't ignore you. I am truly delighted that you live in a community where the schools have no apparent problems. Where I live isn't quite so wealthy and we do have our share of public school problems.
ah. faith based vouchers.
***Ah, I missed that. You don't have kids, Ariel? Come back when you do.***
Have 3 if you must know. 13,13 & 9. All in public school in Louisville KY
Ariel is really scaring me with all this parental failure stuff.
So how are vouchers going to help solve the problem that's causing the problem with public education, according to your analysis of the problem?
Ah, Ariel, and I suppose you DO have the recent experience, don't you.
I take exception with your assertion that this isn't a teaching problem, for inner-city schools are often the worst-funded and suffer from far more teacher burnout than those in the leafy suburbs, where I'd bet my next paycheck you live.
But what might happen if we were able to recruit not just capable teachers but some of the most capable teachers available and entice them to work in such an environment, even if only for a brief period, to be rotated out after, say, a year or two?
You can argue that it would have no effect, but you would be doing so only from an ideological position.
Nevertheless; you asked me to provide examples of what I might do to solve the problem, now I will ask you: What would YOU do about the children whom your "plan," such that it is, would leave behind?
Is your answer, to use your favorite expletive, "Fuck 'em?"
***So how are vouchers going to help solve the problem that's causing the problem with public education, according to your analysis of the problem?***
Don't recall EVER saying vouchers would solve our public school woes. All I have ever agrued is that the kneejerk liberal reaction against them be exammined and that they be given a much broader test. Vouchers aren't the sole answer, but they may help, even if only in a limited way. What's so horrible about that?
I wish the teachers in Louisville could get a look at Ariel's complimentary remarks.
Since your children aren't subjected to these awful inner-city schools, you must live in the 'burbs. Right, Ariel?
Where did you get your first-hand knowledge of the public education system across the country?
Vouchers aren't the sole answer, but they may help, even if only in a limited way. What's so horrible about that?
I'm not convinced that more children won't be hurt than helped. That is what's so horrible about it.
FIGHT THE RIGHT-WING POWER!
Ariel, were I still alive, I'd kick you in the cunt with a steel-toed boot, you dumb whore.
Go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw, you insufferable twat.
***You can argue that it would have no effect, but you would be doing so only from an ideological position.
Is your answer, to use your favorite expletive, "Fuck 'em?"***
Have NEVER reverted to profanity to make a point. Don't know where you get that from.
I am not a teacher but am closely tied into quite a few personally and in business. You are extremely naive if you truly believe that money and better teachers will result in learning in those who don't care about learning.
Government (you and I in the collective) cannot force these children to learn. It simply cannot be done. If the parents or guardians of these children don't care, they are lost. It is truly as simple and sad as that. What happens to them is up to the people that created them and shelter them. I am more concerned about the ones that are salvagable. The ones that we truly can help. There are a lot of them that get swept drown the drain simply because they are stuck in schools where the majority don't care. It's heartbreaking.
***Since your children aren't subjected to these awful inner-city schools, you must live in the 'burbs. Right, Ariel?***
Very substantive and thoughtful comments, Pie. What are you, 13 years old?
Hi. I'm a god damn fascist cunt who makes a big deal about the use of the word "fuck", but sees no problem in making broad generalizations about "liberals", and generally showing myself to be woefully ignorant about everything under the sun while carping about how HORRIBLE the public school system is, but at the same time chalking it up to parental neglect, which wouldn't be combatted at all by vouchers, but who cares, because I'm a conservative and we're ALWAYS right.
Oh, and liberals are cowards, unlike Fearless Leader, who hid from Vietnam in the Texas Air National Guard, and didn't even bother to finish his service, going AWOL for a YEAR. Now that's courage.
In summary: DURRRRRRRRRR.
If the parents or guardians of these children don't care, they are lost. It is truly as simple and sad as that. What happens to them is up to the people that created them and shelter them. I am more concerned about the ones that are salvagable.
Translation: Fuck 'em.
Ariel, good luck to you. I know there are a lot of folks out there who believe as you do, but I'm comforted to know that your "solution," which boils down to saving your kid and to hell with everyone else's, will never even be tried in this country. Not because it is in the grips of horrible evil liberals, but because your approach demonstrates an absolute callousness that is anathema not just to the left, but to the center as well.
Argue 'til you're red in the face, you probably already have, but this country will never adopt an official policy of Fuck 'em. Thank God.
***Argue 'til you're red in the face, you probably already have, but this country will never adopt an official policy of Fuck 'em***
Newsflash to Bgno64: We adopted that policy some time ago. You just don't know it because you haven't been exposed to the inner city schools recently. The "fuck em" policy is in full effect, just not officially called such. But the effect remains the same. Benign neglect, disinterested and disheartened teachers, pass on to the next grade regardless of performance. If you really think our inner city schools are doing these kids some kind of great service, you really are more naive than I thought.
If my children were unfortunate enough to attend a school where the majority of parents didn't give a crap, I would move heaven and earth to get them out.
I'm assuming from this comment that your kids go to a school you deem to be *good*, i.e. filled with children blessed with caring, involved parents. In other words, not those awful inner-city schools with all those kids who have bad parents.
Argue 'til you're red in the face, you probably already have, but this country will never adopt an official policy of Fuck 'em. Thank God.
Yes, I am happy and proud to say I agree with Bgno64. I'm sorry you feel Louisville has such problems, but your solution isn't the answer.
Bye.
But your near pathological insistence that such effectiveness be scientifically "proven" before you are willing to give it a larger test is positively paranoid.
Project for a New Faith-Based Century?
Although I do enjoy reading Atrios quite a bit, I don't think I'll be reading or posting on the boards anymore. One of the things I hate most is how the right in general and the Bushies in particular denigrate and demonize everyone who disagrees with them. But then here I see my fellow lefties and liberals denigrating a particular woman they disagree with by calling her a "whore" and a "twat" and threatening to sexually abuse her. And in previous postings, I see ANYONE who disagrees with the official Atrios groupies--whether that person is a troll, a conservative, or a fellow leftie/liberal--regularly denounced, denigrated, etc.
I'm sorry, but carrying a liberal card doesn't automatically exempt anyone from being a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, or just a plain jerk. The rightwing doesn't have a monopoly on assholeness, though sometimes it seems that way. And since no one thinks we should tolerate that kind of b.s. from the righties, I don't understand why so many seem so willing to tolerate it from the lefties.
So take care, all, love your brothers and sisters in the human race, and g'luck to whoever gets the Dem nomination for 2004.
***One of the things I hate most is how the right in general and the Bushies in particular denigrate and demonize everyone who disagrees with them***
You're a decent man Julian. There is a LOT of bile in lefty blogland. Sure enough, there is some in righty blogville but it truly pales in comparison.
Sure enough, there is some in righty blogville but it truly pales in comparison.
This is hysterical coming from someone who was foaming at the mouth in his/her criticism of public education.
If you can't stand the heat, Ariel, get out of the kitchen, and don't let the door hit you...
Ariel, that last is the most idiotic, asinine thing I've read in a long time. Were you asleep during the Clinton years? Most of what you've written is "coded" racism; you're just happy your kids aren't going to school with "colored" inner-city kids.
Bet you they have some surprises for you in the future, though. May you live in interesting times.
***If you can't stand the heat, Ariel, get out of the kitchen, and don't let the door hit you...***
Good suggestion. Gone . . .
I'm just curious about one thing concerning school vouchers that no supporter has ever been able to properly explain to me. What about kids from poor households without much parental involvement who nevertheless WANT to learn and do well in school? They want the education, yet because of their parent's lack of involvement and the voucher system, their already less-than-adequate school will just get worse..and they got no way out.
For the record, I'm not sold on vouchers because, frankly, most of the arguments seem to come from folks who're more pissed that their all-holy "tax dollars" are being spent on substandard schools than any concerns about how kids are taught. Plus, I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that public dollars will go to religious institutions or with the lack of oversight that a lot of vouchers schools have, in the past, "enjoyed".
Still, if they'd work, I'd support 'em. As another FTR, I don't have kids and don't plan on having 'em. I don't like kids and don't need a smaller version of myself to stroke my ego. Still, I gotta live on this world for another 50 or so years, so I want the little nips to be at least half bright.
Well, darnnit...he left. Guess I'll never know. But I do want to make one last statement, paraphrasing the great Mike Royko. Them that hussle will make it no matter what, and them that don't won't...no matter their economic status or parental involvement.
Julian: I'm done cutting those assholes any slack. From now on, they come on our turf and say some bullshit about "liberals are such cowards", I troll them right back.
Enough of this lay down sally bullshit. We're never going to take this country back unless we start spitting right back in these fucker's faces, because if we give them an inch, they'll start pissing in ours.
Fuck em, they come within my sights, I flatten em.
I think a new label, or epithet, is needed to replace "troll," or to complement it. "Troll" doesn't quite do justice to the quality of an entity who enters a perfectly viable thread and somehow manages to pull a critical mass of others into its annoyingly irrelevant or tangential argument, until the original topic is consumed.
But then again, I don't understand why even "friendly" posters inexplicably insist on changing the subject with OT posts.
Anyway, it seems unfortunate at best that "Ariel" could turn up a-twittering and tsking about Margaret Cho's vivid and robust style-- particularly her penchant for heavily seasoning her piquant dishes with whole cloves of "fuck"-- and end up diverting people with persistent arch and bitchy cavilling about goddamn school vouchers.
Fuck the goddamn vouchers, I say. Let's get back to Ms. Cho's screed!
Like all words, fuck can be used intelligently and coherently. It's quite funny that Ariel yammered for hours without once addressing Cho's actual point.
Hey, she said "fuck", she must be stoopid. Like Dubya!
Well, I apologize for feeding Ariel. It's just that I'm interested in learning why some people think like they do. His/her arguments for school vouchers were enlightening, to say the least.
Yeah, Cho was right, as was mondo's take on her rant. How many people have to give the same speech while using different words before everyone finally *gets it*? What's there to discuss? We need to get it together. Bush is providing incredible fodder. It's there for the taking. Let's take it and run with it.
Yes?
I scrolled down automatic so if someone else has said this already, I apologize:
THERE IS NO SUCH FUCKING THING AS A SOUTH PARK REPUBLICAN! NONE! IT IS A MYTH, A FANTASY, A FRAUD! TREY + MATT WOULDN'T GIVE A SQUIRT OF PISS FOR THESE FUCKING MORONS!!
There, all better now. Oh yeah, Cho's a righteous babe who is, of course, right.
Perhaps Cho's blog will discourage more "green-bating" from the Democratic faithful, hmmm?
Vouchers make no sense because private schools are exclusive. They admit and reject students based on the school's own criteria. That's why they appear to do a better job than public schools. The privates just cherry-pick the best students and avoid or get rid of any problem kids. Why should a taxpayer support a private school that for whatever reason may not admit his own kid or grandkid or nephew or neighbor? If private schools that accepted vouchers were required to accept any kid who showed up with one in hand, vouchers might be a legitimate option. Of course, the vouchers would also have to be accepted as full tuition otherwise they're descriminating against kids whose parents can't make up the difference. So given those two things, take all comers and accept the voucher as full tuition, then vouchers might be a legitimate alternative.
"Government (you and I in the collective) cannot force these children to learn. It simply cannot be done. If the parents or guardians of these children don't care, they are lost. It is truly as simple and sad as that. What happens to them is up to the people that created them and shelter them. I am more concerned about the ones that are salvagable. The ones that we truly can help. There are a lot of them that get swept drown the drain simply because they are stuck in schools where the majority don't care. It's heartbreaking.
Ariel | Email | Homepage | 12.13.03 - 6:35 pm | # "
Can someone explain how taking the funding away from the students in the situation that this person describes helps anyone but the people who are lucky enough to have enough money to send their kid to a private school? Taking away funding from public schools only makes the situation worse. If the voucher system included provisions for those who don't have enough money to pay anything to a private school and private schools where not allowed to exclude anyone for any reason I might be willing to consider a form of a voucher system.
As for Cho's comment, she is right. The fundies must hate the moonies, who hate them right back. The real conservatives must hate what the neo-cons are doing. But then the GOP hate machine is allways going full tilt and those voices of disent will be effectively shut down before anyone else hears it. They will implode one day, and it will be a nasty implosion. I just hope that the Democratic Party gets their shit together in time to fight for this election. Besides you just have to look at how Bush ran his primary campaign 4 years ago. That wasn't exactly "friendly" blood free.
Ariel was flippant about the kids with uninvolved parents until called on it. Then it was: "It's heartbreaking." But (paraphrase)they're lost souls. Let's save the ones we can.
Blah, blah, blah.
I love being a liberal. I have money, and my kids did very well in public schools. I'd like to know who Ariel thinks is actually going to benefit from the voucher program. Ariel already said the problem was in inner-city schools. They're terrible, Ariel sez. *Majority* of parents are uninvolved. Who, then, is going to benefit if Louisville has vouchers?
What is so wrong with that article that I didn't read, is that it divides a community…
I used the link and I couldn’t figure it out. Can anyone tell me what article inspired the rant?
Ariel, I'm waiting for just one link to support your position, if something that shifts so much could be called that. If you can't even do that (just for the look of the url's, if nothing else) fugedabouted.
I have seen these posters when they are aroused, and you're just a snack to these tigers.
Ignore Ariel, please.
I'd be more worried if I thought that he / she / it was a member of a serious and concerted "New Victorian" movement such as Francis Fukuyama (no kidding) seems desirous of in The Great Disruption.
New Victorians would presumably package their reactionary repressiveness as "civility," hiding a massive religious agenda nine-tenths beneath the water. They further gain the advantage of being. . unconventional/ in contrast with the mass culture.
It's a highly superificial media that gives them an airing, e.g Newsweek published an editorial by Janet Lee, "Leave your hat on, but lose the jeans" (Dec. 15), a freakish person who wore "I Love Lucy" period dresses to school in apparently (given the author photo) the 1980s, and advocates formal dress as a means of restoring order to society. Now I know why I always hated Laura Ashley dresses.
Miss Lee (to use titles of civility) could be dismissed as a freak, except that principals in many inner city schools have imposed uniforms on children. People need to be reminded of who suffered under Victorian-like and Christianist regimes (and continue to do so). Children, for one.
I recall comments by Sisi and others on this blog about the delights of Catholic schooling at the hands of teachers such as Sister Mary Torquemada. Furthermore, to move on to worse acts of soul murder, Catholic priests' sexual molestation of children no doubt occurred extensively in the past, as well as in the present, but could not be exposed or stopped in a culture of "civility" in which such things could never be spoken of in public.
"Fuck" is a canary in the mine of public discourse about sexuality.
sara, it's most definitely the *religious schools* that concern me.
It's the old meme: those who don't conform will have their knuckles rapped.
Corporal punishment is alive and well.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
And why, if these kids have such *involved* parents, do they need strict discipline at school?
What a bunch of total hypocrites.
Ariel also seems pretty certainly a closet racist.
My own education was in private (progressive) schools, but I have lived awhile in New York City. At 3:00 p.m. or so, hundreds of middle school kids, nine-tenths black, Hispanic, or mixed-race, would pour out of the schools, usually identically dressed in the latest fad (a few years back it was Bear down jackets, sometimes over school uniform) , and very exuberant and noisy. Some pedestrians inevitably looked affrighted by the "hordes."
Of course, kids of any race make a lot of noise. But I wager that the Ariels of this world are more likely to perceive "chaos" in a black / Latino student classroom than in a white (or Asian, exclusive of the future Chos) one. The Ariels are also not used to poverty and are more likely to perceive "decrepitude."
Of course, run-down schools do exist; that's largely the fault of the anti-tax Republicans, to which party Ariel presumably belongs.
Ariel does not describe what he/she/it envisions for the inner-city minority students but I am starting to have unpleasant visions of state-run or Christian-run penal orphanages for the "pre-criminal" class; those who are least criminal will be tracked into the U.S. military to fight Bush's endless "savage wars of peace."
It makes no sense whatsoever to send some kids to better schools on vouchers while leaving the "lost generation" to fester in the inner-city. That's just a waste of state money.
The children in inner-city schools who have horrible parents, are not motivated, and are disruptive should be kicked out of school and sent to factories to work. They've already learned all they are going to learn in the schools and are otherwise useless, except to cost even more state money by committing crimes and filling prisons. Why drain the economy further when they could actually contribute by being cheap labor for mega-corporations?
Then the children who are left in the inner-city schools who still wish to learn (which is apparently, according to Ariel, only going to be a couple of dozen, at most) will be able to get their education at a greatly reduced cost while still remaining in the inner city and not polluting the rich white suburbs.
Egad, I'm brilliant...and yet a product of public education!
[/sarcasm]
"...we need to be prepared for work, not now like stupid troll Paul going door to door now but ready for Whatever's Coming. We must have something that will bring an American to his/her senses within the "mindless patriotism" period immediately following a Major Event, perhaps saying, "Look, Bush is so incompetant, he let it happen twice!"
The cowards are waiting for their goddamned golden moment to come.
Saying "Look at what Bx did" is going to be REAL effective in the martial law after the MTE.
As if America is reading 'blogs,' when most of them can barely manage AOL. Protest now, or forever hold your pieces of democracy. Just as Clark is too late to the party, kei is too cowardly to take up the work until the worst has happened, and just whines 'This can't be!' when the Brownshirts start cracking old ladies, who are protesting in desperation for the freedoms of their grandkids, on the head with their nightsticks and shooting 16 yo girls with social conscience with wooden dowels.
Cowards should stick together and bleat about 'trolls,' when they themselves are the ones clinging to lies without content.
"THERE IS NO SUCH FUCKING THING AS A SOUTH PARK REPUBLICAN! NONE! IT IS A MYTH, A FANTASY, A FRAUD! TREY + MATT WOULDN'T GIVE A SQUIRT OF PISS FOR THESE FUCKING MORONS!!"
When you're right, you're right. And this time, you're clearly right.
Anyone who has ever WATCHED the show knows how much the creators hate Bush. They freely take pot shots at just about every group in society, but they certainly have no love for the Republican party or the military in general.
They're capitalists, but definitely not partisan Republicans.
Indeed, every single time President Bush has appeared on the show he has been a deluded, ineffectual, moronic jackass.
Just look at the ladder to heaven episode - Bush goes before the UN with soem pictures of clouds to "prove" that Saddam Hussein is massing for an attack against us in heaven.
He's asked by one of the delegates:
"Are you high, or just incredibly stupid?"
And he reponds: "I assure you, I am not high."
This reminds me of the campaign in LA a few years back, when Edwin Edwards ran against David Duke, and the bumper stickers read, "VOTE FOR THE CROOK. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT."
Felt that way then. Feel that way now.
Last time I looked none of these individuals ran for public office and did so making profane speeches or comments.
We all know intuitively that profane public speech labels us as something other than intellectual giants. Whay would anyone want to belabor this breathtakingly obvious point?
Ariel | Email | Homepage | 12.13.03 - 3:35 pm | #
"F___ Saddam. we're taking him out." Those were the words of President George W. Bush, who had poked his head into the office of National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.
(March 2002, CNN)
it was the same George W. Bush who, in front of his daughters, told Wall Street Journal Washington Bureau Chief Al Hunt: “You no good fucking son of a bitch. I will never fucking forget what you wrote.”
At a 1999, fundraiser in Washington, then-candidate Bush told a group of Republicans that his goal as President would be to “reverse all the fuckups of the Clinton administration and then fuck the Democrats over.”
Ken | Email | Homepage | 12.13.03 - 3:30 pm | #
I would say Ariel just likes to kidnap the thread - I would suggest ignoring the jerkoff fuck.
Well Ariel does have THIS right
***Argue 'til you're red in the face, you probably already have, but this country will never adopt an official policy of Fuck 'em***
Newsflash to Bgno64: We adopted that policy some time ago. You just don't know it because you haven't been exposed to the inner city schools recently. The "fuck em" policy is in full effect, just not officially called such. But the effect remains the same. Benign neglect, disinterested and disheartened teachers, pass on to the next grade regardless of performance. If you really think our inner city schools are doing these kids some kind of great service, you really are more naive than I thought.
Ariel | Email | Homepage | 12.13.03 - 6:51 pm | #
thanks to the Bush administration, the funding for a lot of things, schools as well (remember: leave no child behind?) has been pre-empted for his damned war machine. Teachers have to buy their own supplies because our nation finds it more important to buy bombs and fund Halliburton, etc...
The "South Park Republican" concept is utterly rediculous. Cartman is the only conservative, and he's invariably portrayed as spoiled, selfish, and racist. Maybe these SPRs, like Cartman, fantasize about being Hitler. Also recall that Cartman once had a rival's parents killed, chopped up, and cooked into chile which he then fed to his rival- over a matter of $16.12. Perhaps Cartman is a role model to these idiots... but don't call them South Park repugs. Fatass republicans would be more accurate.
classic Cho-united we fucking stand, divided we fucking fall, and bush squeeks his chimp as in.
Your gal Cho?
Yeah, like your a peer.
Separate from that - this chick's got an amazing pair of ... lobes. she knows how to use her brain and she stays on the right side of edgy.
Respect is due, sirrah.
Love is a four-letter word.
So is Bush.
Motherfucker is 12 -- three times the impact.
you're
The essential problem of the Democratic Party is that its members will often vote their consciences while Republicans never have and never will. Thus, we actually cast a critical eye towards our candidates and try to choose someone we think is really the best of the lot; the other side doesn't give a rat's ass whether they have a really good choice as long as he can a)win and b)put the fix in once he's won. So, while Dean has put great distance between himself and his competitors, the party won't let him run away with it until he satisfies the doubts that many feel about him. This weakens him and the party, but dammit that's who we are. Dubya wasn't, isn't and never will be qualified to be president, but once he made the right, cynical moves in 2000 (Bob Jones U., smearing McCain) that was all the GOP needed to give him the thumbs-up and they've never looked back. The Demos would never give a similar candidate a pass like that. (In California, where Democrats dominate in numbers, Davis was never dear to his own party because he used Repub tactics -- smears and pandering -- to win office; Arnold ran a Democrat-style/populist campaign -- cynical to be sure -- and that's why he won.)
We have to work harder because we are BETTER human beings than they are. It's the truth.
secularhuman -- you rock.
***Why is a willingness to use the F-bomb, even frequently, an indication of a lower mental capacity?***
Would you be so kind as to identify one single significant political writing or speech in American history that contains an F bomb?
"What the fuck happened to the Delta House I knew?"
Go crawl back under your bridge, already.
Wow, that's spectacular nonsense, secularh. Tell that to Teddy Roosevelt, a great Republican (though he did go third party on Taft). Lincoln was also a Republican, and so was Eisenhower, who I dearly wished we had amongst us now.
This 'division' trip is coming to an end. There is a HUGE spectrum of 'better monkeys' across this land of 290 MILLION people. To play this our party/their party stuff to that degree is a HUGE canard. There are quite a few Republicans, millions of them, registering Independent to vote Dean. And certainly Clarks support among the R's is high indeed (something the polls aren't measuring in either case).
Evolution to a peaceful world, in control of our technology, and in balance with nature is the goal of all sorts of Republicans, too. The Right-Wing of the R party has destroyed an enormous amount of good will between the parties (especially in the Congress, which is as damaged as the UN by these wasteland policies). We need to HEAL. So cut back on the 'us' vs 'R' shit, because a lot of R's aren't so proud of what the GOP has become under Bxco.
As for Davis, ahem, Davis was an excellent governor. I know, I know, perfection in human form is SO often found, and among the perfect, Davis was so-so. He was corrupt in a few minor ways, but he is a Vet, a lifelong Californian, and an honest man otherwise. Now that Frankinegger is acting out the hypocrisy of Judas in Sacramento, Californians should be thanking Gray Davis daily, because the only policies F has that will work are Davis' in the first place. Give us that $12 B bucks Enron owes us! That will put a dent in the budget crisis. And what about the 100,000s of new longshoremen America needs to check EVERY container that comes into a US port, before it is put on a truck and delivered to our population centers?
Bxco is keeping California in poverty, like everybody else. That wasn't Gray Davis' fault, and he should still be governor. He should be reinstated, but oh well.
Most Republicans are never going to vote against Bush. Republicans are not trained to care about issues. Republicans are trained to hate and to fear. They vote for candidates and legislation because they are instilled with the belief that something terrible will happen if they don't. The GOP voters who don't feel this way are simply racists and bigots who want to support a party which will spit on the people they spit on in their daily lives.
More moderate American voters have been trained to quake in fear every time they question any decision Bush makes. They think he is a god and they blindly support him. He makes them feel safe even as his armada takes their freedom, their money, their jobs, and ultimately their lives. Look at the poll numbers in New Hampshire. Bush leads Howard Dean by 27% and the others by even more. There is no anger towards Bush by a majority of the voters. Those voters increasingly defect to the theocratic, destructive, greed that is the Republican Party.
There will be no uprising against Bush. He'll win in a landslide. Capturing Hussein last night is the icing on Karl Rove's extra-gooey turdcake. We have Dubya for 4 more years. Then Jeb Bush in 2008. Our country is likely gone and is never coming back. At least we have our memories.
Translation:
'Stop bashing Hillary in the hope people will join the 'Draft Gore' campaign.'
Is that about right?
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