I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
What "New Covenant"?
Oh, be fair. Here's the next sentence:
He taught that it all comes down to one question: do you rely on faith alone in God to save you, or are you counting on your own efforts?
He's not saying that you have to adhere to old-Testament Law to get into heaven -- he's reiterating the Protestant idea that it's impossible to do that, hence Jesus had to come to save us.
"What about Matthew the tax collector? He wasn’t doing so bad before he decided to follow Jesus. And Joseph of Arimathea, the rich man who loved Jesus so much he had his body placed in his own tomb?"
What about the rich finding it particularly hard to get into the kingdom of heaven? Jesus said that his mission was to preach to sinners, that alone would account to his hanging around with rich trash.
He also said that prostitutes would get into heaven before the bible thumpers in his day. Those nit-picking, fault finding conservatives. But he didn't mean media whores, I'm sure of that.
which is it? that's one crappy writer.
Then again, this is pretty hilarious:
Brace yourselves, people: Jesus wasn’t at all like Gandhi, Confucius or even Martin Luther King Jr.
I love Christians who've never read the Sermon on the Mount.
Wow-- we must be thinking the same way, Atrios. I just sent Mr. Grills an e-mail on this topic-- right before I saw your new post.
Hep me Jeebus! Hep me Jeebus!
Mr. Grills--
You wrote: "Jesus’ teachings aren’t a salad buffet. You don’t just pick what you want. You can’t hold onto “do unto others as you have them do unto you” and ignore the fact that Jesus said he sits at the right hand of God and that he’ll return someday. Believe it all or don’t believe at all."
Did you know that Thomas Jefferson, our founding father, created his own version of Jesus' teaching by cutting out all the supernatural references in the New Testament? Basically he picked what he wanted from the Jesus' teachings-- he essentially took Jesus' philosophy and separated it from many of the god references. Like it or not, the idea of picking your own religion is a major part of what the USA was founded on.
I'm not sure exactly what you were getting at in your piece "You've Got the Wrong Jesus, Howard". However, you sure come across as an intolerant bigot. Did you ever hear of freedom of religion? It's in our constitution, you might remember.
I like the next line the best The Good Anonymous
He didn’t have a “dream,” and he didn’t walk around talking about love and peace – at least not liberals’ idea of love and peace.
Heh. I guess the peacemakers aren't blessed after all, and the meek won't be inheriting the earth.
which is it? that's one crappy writer.
And his politics is even worse. I'm just saying, this theme is very familiar to me. He's really not saying that Dean is bad because he doesn't make sacrifices. He's saying Dean is bad because he's urging salvation through earthly works, not faith alone. Or something.
Sounds like the Republican Platform to me. Dividers not Uniters, with GW and his disciples the way, the truth, and the right. Forget compassion and condemn the UNGODLY. Too bad we can't burn them at the stake any more, or at least stone them! Self-righteous wingnut...
Thank you for the link to Dr. Laura. It's an oldie, but for some folks letters like this should be read daily.
In saw in the whole Bible not one single Word about being a Bigot and having "Holier than thou" attitudes. But I bet, mine is wrong then, too.
Heh. I guess the peacemakers aren't blessed after all, and the meek won't be inheriting the earth.
The best citation is the most famous: "Turn the other cheek." That's the one that definitively marks Jesus as one of us.
Except "Jesus taught that unless you obey God’s Old Testament laws to the letter, you don’t have a fighting chance at getting into heaven.", is true.
Betty Bowers pokes fun at this attitude,
http://www.bettybowers.com/oprah.html,
The OPRAH JESUS people. She cites specific fundamentalist scripture in he fake news letter.
http://www.bettybowers.com/oprah.html
The real Jesus approved of His Father's command that children who curse their parents be put to death (Matthew 15:3-4). In fact, Jesus chastised the Pharisees for failing to kill children who defied their parents' wishes (Mark 7:9-13). Jesus told us we are to live our lives in utter fear of God for God has the power not only to kill us but also to torture us forever in Hell (Luke 12:5).
Jesus told His disciples to bring before Him any man who didn't believe in Him and to violently slaughter that man while Jesus watched (Luke 19:27). Jesus killed one man by having his body eaten by a swarm of worms because the man failed to give Jesus His due (Acts 12:23). Jesus struck a Jew blind for thwarting His teachings (Acts 13:8-11). Jesus struck a man dead for failing to listen well (Luke 1:20). Jesus took the lives of a couple by scaring them to death for not forking over all of the money they made on a real estate transaction (Acts 5:1-10). Jesus ha
http://www.bettybowers.com/oprah.html
Jesus had such a hot temper, not only was he wont to flip over merchants' tables (Matthew 21:12), He even killed a fig tree for failing to bear fruit even though figs weren't in season (Mark 11:12-14).
Of course, Jesus knew He didn't have enough time to torture every sinner while He was alive, so He promised to do much more after He passed. Jesus said that, come Judgment Day, sinners will be gathered together and hurled into a furnace of fire where there will be uncontrollable wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, 50). Entire cities of people who don't believe in Him will suffer a fate worse than that of Sodom and Gomorra (Mark 6:11). Jesus said that God will take vengeance on nonbelievers by burning them "in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). The Lord will create horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth and scorpion's tails that will sting and inflict savage pain on sinners for five months (Revela
http://www.bettybowers.com/oprah.html
The Lord will create horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth and scorpion's tails that will sting and inflict savage pain on sinners for five months (Revelation 9:7-10).
After God sends fires, plagues and beasts God to Earth, the world will be covered in unburied dead bodies rotting everywhere while good Christians will "rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another" (Revelation 11:5-10). Meanwhile, the smoke of the burning, rotting bodies will ascend and plague the Earth forever (Revelation 14:10-11). And the smell will attract scavenger birds that will feast upon "the supper of the great God" (Revelation 19:17-1
.
Jesus will send an earthquake to kill 7,000 people (Revelation 11:13). He will inflict bodily sores, turn the seas and rivers to blood, scorch everyone with fire, cause people to consume their own tongues. Oh, and He'll cause horrendous storms, too (Revelation 16:1-21).
And you thought you knew your bible, and the Jesus is love bull.
Ha!
The following is the very un-Republican words of Jesus from Matthew 5:38-47:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.
40 If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well.
41 Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you ha
Freaking Haloscan!
46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?
48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
And this doesn't even include the scriptures that are not in the present bible.
"Those who were not for him were against him, Jesus said."
Jesus said that?? Gee, it sounds suspiciously like yet another wingnut quoting Dear Leader. You know, I can't say it enough. Dean fucked up by getting into this "who loves Jeebus" bullshit. Dean should have stayed away from religion altogether because the wingnuts have that market cornered and anything he says will be portrayed as just more "liberal" hypocrisy. He should have just stayed on message.
Why does Haloscan hate the Baby Jesus?
Well, clearly I'm going to hell.
See you all at the bar. 
A.
OT
You know that the senate voted 95 - 0 not to ratify the Kyoto protocol in 1997.
So that means anytime Kerry, Edwards or Lieberman mention either Bush's environmental record, Global warming or Kyoto, they are full of shit.
Not a single one voted for environmentalism in this case.
I pledge allegience
To the cross
Of the United Christian Church of America.
And to the republic
That it replaced,
"Go to hell!"
There's One God.
Individually.
For grace,
and righteousness
for all.
Dennis Revenni, granted everything you say is deserved by those who are biblican fundamentalists, they shouldn't be allowed to wiggle out of explaining themselves.
A lot of people believe that the bible, including the "New Testament" are a pretty mixed bag and not entirely reliable. None of it is certainly authentic, none of it is in the original form it was written in or said. Unlike fundamentalists we admitt that it is necessary to sift through a lot of dross to find the useful stuff. The hints of how to live. They sift too but they always seem to pick the dross.
If someone wanted to open a can of worms here they could endorse the kind of work done by the Jesus Seminar or Jn. D. Crossen. A fun fight if you like that sort of thing.
Revelations is a comic book. Jesus can't be held responsible for it. Even Paul can't be held responsible for some of those letters. And I don't like Paul very much.
Then there is:
Well, can?t we just set aside both views and call him a great teacher? Wrong-o. Jesus? teachings aren?t a salad buffet. You don?t just pick what you want. You can?t hold onto ?do unto others as you have them do unto you? and ignore the fact that Jesus said he sits at the right hand of God and that he?ll return someday. Believe it all or don?t believe at all.
Shorter Matt Grills: You must be a Christian to believe that "do unto others as you have them do unto you" is a good idea.
BTW, C.S. Lewis makes a similar argument in Mere Christianity. So it's not just limited to wingnut Americans.
See! This is exactly why we need prayer in school. Even prospective presidential candidates don't know the real Jesus! We are a nation in crisis!
He didn’t have a “dream,” and he didn’t walk around talking about love and peace – at least not liberals’ idea of love and peace.
As the cartoon Hank Hill once said, "I was talking about JESUS peace, NOT hippie peace!"
Elmer Gantry, I've missed you so much. You gave me some mighty fun reading back about fourty years ago. Gettin' any?
I forgot about the "salvation through faith" stuff. Luther was a swine, Calvin was too. Lazy, bigoted, social climbing, feather nesting, frauds.
"Those who were not for him were against him, Jesus said."
Jesus said that??
Yep. But elsewhere he said that those who were not against him were for him! Take your pick.
So that means anytime Kerry, Edwards or Lieberman mention either Bush's environmental record, Global warming or Kyoto, they are full of shit.
Well, no. Kyoto is not the only environmental issue. Bush's EPA has systematically loosened regulations that were designed to keep toxins out of the air you breath, the water you drink, and the food you eat. So his record really is abominable. Whether Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman are perfect is separate question.
A bit more from scripture, for those so inclined; specifically, Matthew 19:16-22:
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
And so on through the "eye of a needle" part . . .
Pray,heathens.......pray till the blood spurts out yo ass.
Revelations is a comic book. Jesus can't be held responsible for it. Even Paul can't be held responsible for some of those letters. And I don't like Paul very much.
Ever read Luke? I don't toss around the term "anti-Semitism" lightly but Luke is seething, the scariest of all of the Gospels.
Man do I hate Bible-thumpers. Especially the really ignorant ones.
OK, they're all ignorant. I mean the really, really ignorant ones.
As has been well pointed out, Grills is completely contradicting Jesus, who (allegedly) came to give new commandments to supercede those of (what we now call) the Old Testament.
Many may think Jesse was a heel for other reasons, but he spoke directly in my baptised, Roman Catholic, often fed a daily catechism of quackery, so my Jesus fearing mom could get her nips in the daylight hours, ear when he stated:
"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."
For that one statement, Jesse will always have a place setting at my table for Americans United
Individual spirituality and daily honesty has brought me where I am today, nothing else can secure a tommorrow, like faith in ones own soul and reason, who clearly sees, free of countenance, what is offered to them each day.
Yeah Brother, you can ship this "scripture" to darthgrills@hotmail.com if you must, but I won't.
Re-read Jesse to understand why.
OT, but important:
This is a terrible miscarriage of justice. Not at all what the law was intended to do.
http://www.blackcommentator.com/
...1_wise_sex.html
"Sex across the Color Line"
from BLACK COMMENTATOR
by Tim Wise
This is the story of a real American tragedy. The kind they make movies about.
The victim - and let there be no mistake that is the only word that fits here - is Marcus Dixon: a young man who was an 'A' student in high school, a member of the National Honor Society, one of the best defensive football players in the United States, who scored above a 1200 on his SAT, and had signed a letter of intent to attend Vanderbilt University as a student-athlete in the most complete sense of the word. And yet today, Marcus Dixon sits in a prison cell in Georgia, staring at a 10-year sentence, because - and let there be no mistake about this either - Marcus Dixon is black, and that makes all the difference.
Barring a reversal of his sentence by the
Grills makes perfect sense to me. All Democrats are baby-killing adulterers who hate baby Jesus. All Republicans are forgiven their trespasses.
Believe it all or don't believe at all.
Everybody picks and chooses what they believe from the Bible buffet. Everybody.
The fundies just won't admit it.
Anyway, this guy quotes from the expert theologians at FreeRepublic, so how seriously can we take him? He's clearly preaching to the choir.
Ever read Luke? I don't toss around the term "anti-Semitism" lightly but Luke is seething, the scariest of all of the Gospels.
Old Hat
I think Matthew has him beat. I'm convinced by the argument that the anti-Semitism in the gospels is the result of later Christians to suck up to the Romans and as an attack on the non-Jesus Jews who were their regional rivals. I'd reccommend the book "Who Killed Jesus" by J.D. Crossen. That and his book on the beginnings of Christianity, whose name I can't recall just now.
Jesus, himself, was Jewish through and through, in the direct line that comes from Hillel. Of that I'm as sure as I am about any of it.
Oh-h say can you see,
By gods early light,
Once so proudly we prayed,
By the twilights last lynching,....
Silly me.
And I thought Jesus came to offer rdemption despite our sins.
EPT
I prefer the Holy Blood Holy Grail explanations myself.
Noptice how the Da Vinci code stole many of the ideas first proposed in the HBHG books.
Jesus said no such thing.
So many people take the stories of Jesus out of context anyway. Jesus said different things to different people because, in speaking to a person's soul, we all need to hear different messages. That was one of the major gifts Jesus had - the ability to say exactly what a person's soul needed to hear at the precise moment in time.
And of course, if we were to follow the examples set in the old testement...
1) incest would be approved. (daughters sleeping with their father in order to keep the family line going)
2)the old law allows for "eye for an eye" in which case all the children/adults who died in Iraq during the period of the sanctions, if taken to the old courts, would gain the right of having an equal amount of people who applied the sanctions executed.
I'm no longer interested in people who justify their values with a manipulated book. I want to hear why they believe what they believe based on their own lives, not on the words (some
"So many people take the stories of Jesus out of context anyway. Jesus said different things to different people because, in speaking to a person's soul, we all need to hear different messages. That was one of the major gifts Jesus had - the ability to say exactly what a person's soul needed to hear at the precise moment in time."
Isn't that what Kerry does?
Nuanced prophet that he is.
Thank you Peanut. Yes, all Xians, every single one, picks and chooses. Even fundies. Especially fundies.
See here and here.
I was taught that the whole point of the New Testament was that it dispensed with Old Testament laws.
Because Jesus was the Son of God, you had the entire message boiled down to two commandments "Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind," and "love your neighbor as yourself."
Idiocy. Pure Idiocy.
Anonymous writes:
The real Jesus approved of His Father's command that children who curse their parents be put to death (Matthew 15:3-4). In fact, Jesus chastised the Pharisees for failing to kill children who defied their parents' wishes (Mark 7:9-13). Jesus told us we are to live our lives in utter fear of God for God has the power not only to kill us but also to torture us forever in Hell (Luke 12:5).
Jesus told His disciples to bring before Him any man who didn't believe in Him and to violently slaughter that man while Jesus watched (Luke 19:27). Jesus killed one man by having his body eaten by a swarm of worms because the man failed to give Jesus His due (Acts 12:23).
This is so completely inaccurate that it is clearly malicious. I am no christian (have trouble with the whole virgin birth, resurrection, miracle performing thing) but the statements made about Jesus preaching that old testament laws need to be followed to the letter could not be further from the truth. H
Luke 19
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
I think Peter Jackson should film the Bible, and get Andy Serkis to play Jesus. It would take this team to master the portrayal of the seriously conflicted Jesus.
Damn
His entire 3 year preaching campaign was set against a backdrop of pharisees who hounded him every step of the way for not following the letter of Jewish law. The first two references of Matthew and Mark were two accounts of the same story in which Jesus in fact used the example of slaying your children to be a rule that even the pharisees did not follow (rightly!) On the practice of clean versus unclean dietary rules Jesus said that it wasn't what was put in the mouth that mattered it was what comes out (such as hate speech).
The real Jesus would be rejected and imprisoned by the wing nuts and todays fundamentalist christian.
Wow! Anti-semitic and anti-catholic! Who would've imagined.
This piece reads like it was written by R. Robot after he was kidnapped and reprogrammed by a group of students from Bob Jones University. Like most conservative pundits who write about religion, Mr. Grills is so ignorant of the history of Christianity it's laughable. Assuming he's a Protestant, does he know that 500 years ago people who had the same beliefs as him were being burned at the stake because they didn't believe in the "right Jesus"?
Just to dispense with Dennis Revenni's rambling nonsense ASAP: check three of his scriptural cites and tell me they say EVEN VAGUELY what he says they do.
I'll wait.
No mention, for example, of Jesus doing ANYTHING in the Book of Acts. It's a continuation of Luke's Gospel, and by Acts Luke has already described the Ascension into Heaven (the only such description in any of the Gospels).
As for Grill's comments: pure nonsense, but then, I grew up in East Texas, hearing this kind of spew from all manner of pulpits and sidewalk "evangelists."
"Turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" is just a small part of that "buffet" Mr. Grills' seems to want to ignore. So ignore him, too.
Life's too short to argue with everybody....
I think Peter Jackson should film the Bible, and get Andy Serkis to play Jesus. It would take this team to master the portrayal of the seriously conflicted Jesus.
Cowalker
The bible is a Miike film for all the bloodshed and hallucinatory action.
Gary Oldman could play Jesus.
Did you know that it can not be proven from the Bible that Jesus ever smiled.
If you ever want to piss people off tell them that.
Wow! Anti-semitic and anti-catholic! Who would've imagined.
Just to dispense with Dennis Revenni's rambling nonsense ASAP: check three of his scriptural cites and tell me they say EVEN VAGUELY what he says they do.
I'll wait.
No mention, for example, of Jesus doing ANYTHING in the Book of Acts. It's a continuation of Luke's Gospel, and by Acts Luke has already described the Ascension into Heaven (the only such description in any of the Gospels).
Robert M. Jeffers
Dipshit, it was from the Betty Bowers site.
Can you fucking read?
There aint no god.
That bible thing is a serious waste of paper.
Matthew 15:3-4
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible...age=Matt+15:3-
6,
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[1] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[2] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[3] ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Oops, looks as if Betty was right there.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbibl...e.com/mk/
7.html
7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Jesus faults the Pharisees
for not killing disobedient children
7:10
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
7:11
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
7:12
And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
7:14
Oops Betty was on the money again
Christ was wonderful....Christians SUCK!
Dipshit, it was from the Betty Bowers site.
Can you fucking read?
Dennis Reveni
You are the dipshit. Before honoring Betty Bowers why not fact check a little yourself to see if you are making an ass of yourself.
And yet, Mr. Revnie, you post it as "truth."
Or did I miss the sarcasm, too?
If I did, so did several others on this board. Sarcasm that doesn't work isn't the fault of the audience.
And name-calling is a poor excuse for intellectual vacuity.
And yet, if you want the "conflicted Jesus" (the product of four gospels, actually), consider that Jesus told the man who wanted to bury his father to "Let the dead bury the dead, but you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God." He also said "No one who doesn't not hate father and mother is worthy to be my disciple."
Wisdom is a harder path than whether or not someone smiles.
Crap like this makes me grateful I'm agnostic. When you take the long view of history and the rise of civilization, it becomes quite apparent that mankind's great advances (modern medicine, science, industry, technology) are, at the end of the day, the fruits of rising above silly superstitions and moving towards reason and rational thought.
And yes, that includes religion.
(did you know, back in the day when the Church ruled all matters of theology in the Western world, that if observable facts contradicted the Bible or the teaching of the Church, you were supposed to believe the Church/God and discard the evidence of your own eyes?)
You are the dipshit. Before honoring Betty Bowers why not fact check a little yourself to see if you are making an ass of yourself.
Tom
Guess you haven't read my last two posts.
Just proved exactly how dipped in shit you are.
Now go lick your buddy's ass.
Bowers was not right. Keep reading and you'll see why.
He was saying that the pharisees were right to ignore this law.
Reveni proves he can't read, either. I still don't get anything out of Mark that says "kill your children."
Hopeless, this arguing with a fool.
As for "pissing people off," I like to tell my congregation members that Jesus probably looked like Yassar Arafat, rather than the Aryan Jesus of Sunday School pictures.
A more accurate observation, and a more annoying one, as well.
Mark 2:24,27
And the Pharisees said unto Him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
...And He said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
Get it, Darth?
I didn't think so.
.
If I did, so did several others on this board. Sarcasm that doesn't work isn't the fault of the audience.
Robert M. Jeffers
If the audience is stupid, then yes sarcasm fails.
I take it you are stupid.
Either way, my last two posts have proven that Betty's points are correct.
Sorry, you lose,
so quit selling the sour grapes it is unbecoming.
Jesus told His disciples to bring before Him any man who didn't believe in Him and to violently slaughter that man while Jesus watched (Luke 19:27). Jesus killed one man by having his body eaten by a swarm of worms because the man failed to give Jesus His due (Acts 12:23). Jesus struck a Jew blind for thwarting His teachings (Acts 13:8-11). Jesus struck a man dead for failing to listen well (Luke 1:20). Jesus took the lives of a couple by scaring them to death for not forking over all of the money they made on a real estate transaction (Acts 5:1-10). Jesus ha
Anonymous
Jesus once shot a man in Reno ... just to watch him die.
all the energy expended in the world arguing about religion and whose God is bigger than whose, seems to me even more pointless than arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
It's more like Trekkies arguing over the meaning of warp speed.
"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
my imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend!!!
Renato-
Do a little more intellectual historical work before you pronounce sentence.
Aquinas as a student of Aristotle. Much of Aristotelian thought came into the Western world through the Church (thanks to the Muslims, who had copies of Aristotle's work that wasn't lost in Alexandria). Platonism was kept alive by the church, too.
And don't get me started on the philosophical work of the Scholastics.
To portray the time Europe was dominated by the Catholic Church as "medieval" or "dark ages" is to betray a deep ignorance of history. The medieval mind was much more subtle than most "post-modern" thought, and science and technology have not been unalloyed sources of "good" in the world.
"Reveni proves he can't read, either. I still don't get anything out of Mark that says "kill your children.""
Can't you read asshole?
http://www.skepticsannotatedbibl...m/mk/
index.html
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Looks plain to me, and the site I found it on.
From Matthew 15
He summoned the crowd and said to them:"Give ear and try to understand. It is not what goes into a man's mouth that makes him impure; it is what comes out of his mouth."
He was rejecting not supporting old testament laws in this passage. It could not be clearer.
Really, Reveni, that the best you got? "Sour grapes"? And you fall back on the oldest argument in the book, authority, but "make" your "point"?
Betty says it, that settles it? Really? Even Socrates shredded that one ages ago.
You take quotes out of context, refuse to exegete the historical, cultural, social, or religious context of the statements, declare them to say what, on their face, they clearly do not say, cite as your reference a blog, and declare victory?
And I'm the one "selling" sour grapes?
This is ludicrous....
It seems to me that we must return to the true Gospel The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus, to understand our state religion.
(Yes, I know most of you have seen it, but it still makes me laugh [and cry] every time ...)
By the way I aint Christian. I am not arguing "whose god can beat up whose god". In a world of people bullshitting other people I am just calling for a little accuracy.
Oh, and the reversion to name calling is really impressive. Very intellectual rebuff, that.
Keep it up. When you are willing to quote all of Mark 7 to me, and discuss it in the context of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as presented in that gospel, perhaps we'll have the basis for a conversation.
But so long as you continue to quote out of context, and resort to name calling, I consider your statements to be the whinings of a small child.
I think most people on this site would like to see a change of administrations in the White House (and House and Senate). Like it or not we have a big chunk of people who identify themselves as Christians who vote Republican much more reliably than non-Christians vote Democratic. If these people believe that their savior is an ass kicking pyschopath instead of a sissy like Ghandi then we have a problem.
Prove to me that even caring about this crap is more valid than believing in the Tooth Fairy and maybe I'll think about taking it seriously.
Tom--
Clearly Lt. Gen. Boykin (did I get his rank right?) thinks so, and he scares me.
Jesus died because he refused to stop preaching about "the kingdom of God," and that was a political crime the Roman Empire couldn't countenance. Crucifixion was the preferred method of dispatching those guilty of such treason (think of the movie Spartacus, where the slaves were punished for much the same reason). Jesus, true to his teachings, refused to resist that execution.
Paul understood this, and preached about the "wisdom of God" that looks like foolishness to the world. But many prefer power to powerlessness, so they turn Jesus the "Prince of Peace" into the "Prince of Peace with the biggest, meanest army behind him."
So it goes....
Tom:
It could not be clearer from the passage in Matthew that Jesus thought that it was a horrible sin for a child to speak evil of a parent (even unto stoning, as the Scripture says), but it was not a sin to eat bread without washing hands first. Naturally Jesus was more merciful than that (John 8 being the most conspicuous example), but that is evidenced in different Scripture passages, not this one.
religion is a useful tool for enslaving the masses, to accept the status quo because there's a better life around the corner - really! - so don't worry your pretty little head about those crooked thieving bastards running the show.
Coming this Easter Season, a story so moving, so terrifying that your hands will dig into the shards of the broken city and shear off the flesh of your sinful, corrupted corpses. Look to the East as the once Sweet and Loving Star explodes into a ball of Righteous Fury: The Last Film You Will Ever See Without Popcorn!
CHRIST, THE SCREAMING AVENGER!!
***
Rated R on account of all the killing and stuff.
***
I'm sorry--I'm not clear what the argument is about: what 2000-year-old fairy stories are more accurate, which fairy stories we should use to guide our lives, who can memorize fairy stories the best, or how we can use our interpretations of fairy stories to show our virtue? Because each of these zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
A few comments on the Gospels... which we not (with the possible exception of Mark) written by anyone who actually had been in the presence of Jesus while he was alive:
Matthew, Mark, and Luke (the Synoptic gospels) all seemed to be sourced from the same ("Q") document, although they differ in details because of the audience they're addressing:
Mark - oldest, most 'news reporting': "He did this, then straightaway he did that."
Matthew - writing to the Jews: "And see here, it was foretold in Isaiah right here...." Oh, for the want of commas in ancient Hebrew -- John the Baptist must be the "voice crying in the wilderness" foretold in Isaiah because he was crying and in the wilderness. Except in Isaiah, the voice isn't in the wilderness, but instead is crying "In the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord."
Luke - writing to Gentiles and re-casting the story to make it sound like their magical gods, complete with a virgin birth.
John - arguably Gnostic, and cer
ploeg--
Matthew is one source, and he is clearly both Jewish and concerned with preserving Torah.
Luke, clearly a gentile, is another source. Consider Luke 9:59-60, where he tells a man: "Let the dead bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God." The son's duty to bury the father was as serious as children respecting their parents; in fact, it's part of the same law. But here, Jesus disregards it entirely.
It's a question of wisdom, not a question of rule-keeping or rule-violating. But rules are easier than wisdom, so most people, Christian or not, prefer the latter.
Robert J., Hitler did some useful things too - he had the autobahns built, he resurrected the German economy from hyperinflation and a malaise the likes of which this country didn't experience even in the depths of the Great Depression. Under his rule, the Volkswagen came about. Mussolini made the trains run on time and brought a measure of law and order to what is otherwise (even today) a rather unruly group of folks prone to see defying the law as an essential gesture of self-actualization.
None of these 'useful acts' excuse the atrocities committed in their names.
Haloscan - grrrr.
John, arguably Gnostic, and certainly the last written. More theology than historical.
And don't even get me started on Paul, who decided he could do better. What we call "Christianity" today is mostly Paul-ism.
Dennis - not to quibble, but all the stuff you put in there from Acts, and then said that Jesus did that stuff - unfortunately, according to the bible's timeline, Jesus was well gone by Acts. Acts is all about Paul.
Ducktape--Quick tendentious correction: Matthew and Luke derive from Mark and Q, as well as Special Luke and Special Matthew (the two nativity stories).
John derives from the "sayings gospel," something probably similar to the Gospel of Thomas. Certainly Greek (i.e., gnostic), but also Jewish, and probably less "gnostic" than Elaine Pagels, et al., think.
Say you bite the Lewis argument against Jesus as Great Teacher, say yeah, a ranting hippie who thinks he's God really is crazy. Are you going to go out and molest children? Drop the Anointed already! If you're a cross-worshipping bastard, misquoting a mythical dead Jew isn't going to make you moral! If you're a good person, you don't look to a mythical dead Jew (self-hating?) for approval. Moral adults listen to their gut, they don't need the lying "taught instinct" of the torture-engine-worshippers.
Gore Vidal(not exact): "The most pointlessly bloodthirsty thing in History is Christianity." Earlier we were talking about a black book of Marx-imagine compiling a new Testament to account for every murder from Constantine through Charlemagne and on to Koresh and Jones. It'd dwarf the first two, in size and clarity.
Renato-
Yes, yes, and mUssolini made the trains run on time. Did I say that excused Fascism? Or that Volkswagen made up for the Holocaust?
Just trying to observe that things are a bit more complicated than most people want to consider. But it's easier, usually, to throw out the baby when changing the bathwater.....
"Every murder" should obviously be "every crime of the devious, shifty-eyed, gold-and-gore-hungry cross-worshippers and their lies."
Jesus? What's all this brouhaha over the Mexican dishwasher at the restaurant I work at? He seems like a nice guy...
moussolini did NOT make the trains run on time. He made them enormously more dangerous and improperly run by firing all the experienced train techs (cf. Reagan) and then forbade anyone to report it.
There are NO "pragmatic" or "objective" arguments for the incompetant, stupid fascists, or the xians for that matter.
Ya know, there's still very, very little - if any - evidence that the late J.C. even, well...existed. Non-Biblical evidence, I mean. Now, granted it's been some years since I've researched this - during my own evolution into an agnostic comfortable with his disbelief - so something may've come up - a driver's license, birth certificate, old yearbook. If there's any proof positive, do pass it on. Otherwise, I still follow the idea that the cat we know as Jesus was probably some random rabbi who stirred up some shit and got some stories written about him.
It's been some years as well since I read the Bible, but there's always been some things that've struck me as disconcerting. There's no mention of snow, for one. Or Oriental people. Or Native Americans. Or, frankly, white people. Or anyone outside that little corner of the world. And there's no praise for intelligence or learning outside of religious studies. That I've always found telling.
Robert, I know full well that things are more complicated than they seem on the surface.
When I weigh the good which religion has brought us vs. the evil, the scales tip well over into 'evil'. But, that's just MNSHO. You are entitled to yours as well.
But, renato, if you pray to the Sky Buddy, your crops will grow & your enemies will diminish before you.
Well, then again, maybe they won't. But, ah...oh, just shut up and pray dammit!
No one has the right to judge my relationship with God, whether that relationship is worshipful devotion or total rejection and disbelief. Others have a right to judge and limit my actions, but NO ONE has any business interfering in my personal relationship with God.
"Turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" is just a small part of that "buffet" Mr. Grills' seems to want to ignore.
Not to mention that whole bit about not killing people. Or does that ony apply to unborn people? Makes my brainses feel swirly and bad ...
A.
Or maybe the Judeo-Christian God is about as real as Odin, Zeus, the Rainbow Snake God, Camazotz, Sauramon, Peter Pan and Superman and this is all painfully moot.
Or not.
It all boils down to the preacherman knowing, and you do not: obey the preacherman.
Variations on a Scam.
since I like theological discussions, some thoughts for Backslider.
Do you think Socrates was a real person? If you say yes, than the arguments confirming the likelyhood of a Jesus are unfortunately overwhelming.
Renato, your "Galileo argument" is unfortunate, but why was he not killed, but instead only forced to accept the authority of the Church. They were not against scientific discovery, but against the undermining of the authority of the church. (more on this in p. Feyerabend, against method.)
David Neiwert (Orcinus) has been all over this stuff: the doctrine that the whole of Old Testament law is part of the (pseudo) theology of Christian Reconstructionism, and it is a really and truly scary movement. Reconstructionists want to limit the francise to Christians, and impose the death penalty for things like taking the Lord's name in vain. Sounds nutty? Check out this essay by Frederick Clarkson, as well as my own precis of his and Niewert's writings on the matter. Apologies for the self-promotion, but blogspot being blogspot, I can't find the exact link to Niewert's posts, which were put up sometime around the end of September/beginning of October last year.
I've posted the text of my email reply to this jackass on my website. I hope he reads it!
Can't say I'm a big fan of organized religion (although the Quakers are pretty darn cool), but this whole thread brought to mind one of my favorite Woody Allen quotes: "If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up."
to be sung with exuberant x-tian glee:
jesus was a robot
does not compute
jesus was a rabbi
it's true!!
real peace/love in the new year
not the fake stuff being peddled
in some neighborhoods these days
PeWi,
You've got a good point and an argument I've heard before. There's one small difference: there's evidence of Socrates' existence outside of Plato's writings. Anecdotes from contemporaries and official records that've survived - particularly of his death - either exist or have existed at some point in time.
As for the late J.C., the only thing known apart from Biblical sources of his existence is a reference something along the line of an official record of the death of "John, the brother of Joshua (Jesus's real name), the so-called Christ". Now, again, I don't doubt there was a an actual figure that was the basis for the Jesus myth, but most of it is just that: a myth.
Wouldn't is be great if the so-called "Rapture" really were true and Pat Robertson and Grills were whisked away forever and ever. Amen.
And while we're on Socrates, it's pretty well accepted that while he was a remarkable thinker, most of Plato's works - particularly the later stuff - used Socrates as a mouthpiece. The Republic, for example, is all the P-man.
And didja know that Plato totally made up his account of Socrates' death via hemlock? He was hundreds of miles away at the time, as any connection with Socrates was considered bad company once the Athenian bigwigs dropped the hammer on him.
Ahhh, history...
PeWi: Who cries if we grant that Socrates was just a rhetorical tool of Plato's? Can this transfer to the Chracter? Also, was Socrates the Adonis-figure of a cult copying the religious fashion of the day, like the Character was? Were there nearly identical figures in numerous other religions to Socrates, as with the Character? Are the writings of the alleged Socrates getting anyone killed? As for your last paragraph, only God comprehend it; while you are right that Galileo and Copernicus were good christians and this just shows the good of appeasing bullies, they were still punished for what none should be punished for. Not against discovery, but the church was against discoveries which undermined its ignorance-based power, which makes it pro-discovery exactly how?
I'd be willing to bet a very large sum of money that I can find some of "God's Old Testament laws" that Mr. Grills does not follow. Wonder if he'd be willing to take me up on that?
By his own logic, of course, this means that he does not "have a fighting chance at getting into heaven."
As long as we're having Pat Robertson fantasies, I've been waiting for the day when inexpensive, easy-to-use computer graphics software will allow me to make an utterly lifelike movie depicting Pat engaging in unconventional sexual practices with Jerry Falwell. (And possibly a waffle iron.)
kei & yuri,
Well, they did kill the G-man, so there ya go. Plus, the Church got around to rescinding his excommunication a few years back, right? What more do ya want, a Christmas card?
The turtle moves...
Yarg! Tom / Robert: The important clue you have missed is:
Betty Bowers is a satirical site! And most people know this!
Now go take a Valium. Or twelve.
EPT
I prefer the Holy Blood Holy Grail explanations myself.
Noptice how the Da Vinci code stole many of the ideas first proposed in the HBHG books.
Dennis Reveni
Didn't read the Da Vinci Code, don't read many novels. From what I've read it sounds like it might be more neo-medieval horse feathers of the "And did those feet in ancient times" variety. Sorry WB we don't see eye to eye on that.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for skeptics going after scriptures, believers and the rest. It's everyone's right to do it and healthy for everyone. I just don't think Jesus was responsible for most of what passes as Christian these days.
It's a mistake to assume that the Jewish practice of Jesus' time was any one thing, or before or after. You can go back to the earliest prophets in the bible and see that the temple religon wasn't everyone's idea of true religon. Isiah, for example.
Wow, Matt makes it sound like he actually walked and talked with the great JC himself. Either that or he's hearing voices in his head, just like someone else we know.
Someone once said, "Research has proven that Shakespeare didn't actually write the plays attributed to him. They were written by another man of the same name."
These debates about the existence of Jesus seem similarly absurd. Somebody back then said or wrote that stuff that we attribute to Jesus. What difference does it really make if his name was 'Jesus' or something else?
one of my favorite Woody Allen quotes: "If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up."
Has No Name
I like when he was asked if he'd like to live on in his movies he said, "No I'd like to live on in my appartment."
On the Gnostics, I'm not eating lion for anything.
Beth: the difference is who's murdering for shakespeare?
Christianity, the least respectable religion out there.
The need for a "redeemer" because God is a practical joker, who could not resist pointing out the only plant in the whole of the Garden of Eden and telling Adam and Eve "Don't Touch"? A scapegoat religion - I need someone else, someone special to die for my sins. Since God set the whole thing up, let Him be punished for it. Do I have this right?
Not to mention the utter hilarity of a religion that proclaims it is monotheistic while worshiping at least two and maybe three Gods. Or how completely comfortable they seem eating their God! Amazing and disgusting at the same time.
Ug don't talk to me about Christianity. It is the religion for people that never grew up.
I'd just like to point out the logical fallacy of the "Christian writings caused the suffering and war" attack on Christianity. Does the same apply to the "goth music caused Columbine" argument? Or the "it's the movie's fault that someone imitated it and died" argument?
Look, say what you will about Christianity and that you don't agree with it (personally, I don't either), but you're just as ignorant blaming the horrible actions of individuals in an organization on the innocent members of that organization.
F
John, arguably Gnostic, and certainly the last written. More theology than historical.
I'd like to think that John was written in response to Gnosticism - and particularly to the community that followed John the Baptist ("He was not that Light"). The prologue seems rather gnostic at first, but then some of the wording ("the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us") would give gnostics pause. Gnostic traditions maintain that this happened once, at the beginning of time, and that divinity was trapped within the flesh, not made flesh.
John may very well have been written to convert gnostics over to the orthodox Christianity (or whatever passed as such in his day).
I won't be taking spiritual advice from terrorism supporter Pat Robertson, nor from any of his ilk.
But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.
So how does that fit in with: "We will fuck him. Do you hear me? We will fuck him. We will ruin him. Like no one else has ever fucked him."
It never ceases to amaze me how the church-going bible-thumping types are the most ignorant of religion. I can remember going to church when I was a kid. Afterwards, ask any adult what was said, they would have no idea.
Dominion, your arguments have been knocking around since late antiquity. There's not a new idea among them, I'm afraid.
The fact of the matter is that most of things that you cite about Christianity aren't even original to Christianity. The "divine redeemer," the "scapegoat," pagan monotheism (monotheism that recognizes more than one divine beings), and ritualized cannabalism. All of these things preceded Christianity by centuries or more. Traces of them are still found in many other religions around the world.
Christianity is hardly unique in this regard. Tertullian, I believe, recognized Christianity's synchretistic nature, but argued that, since it was a new phenomenon and that the sum of its parts was not equal to the whole, the other synchretistic religions were inferior.
Comparing the bloodthirsty Bible and the rational, sane people who used it to kill to confused, disturbed kids is sick.
the difference is who's murdering for shakespeare?
kei & yuri,
I take it you've never seen A Double Life. 
The thing is, those people killing in the name of Jesus aren't going to be swayed by such debates anyway. Anything that contradicts their interpretation of the bible is, by definition, a lie. So what's the point?
Leo: exactly where does Dom posit Christian uniqueness or that of his ideas and what does it justify in the transfer from original to copycat?
The Early Church eventually condemned Tertullian as a heretic, I might add.
He once said, "What has Jerusalem to do with Athens, the Church with the Academy, the Christian with the Heretic? ... After Jesus Christ we have no need of speculation, after the Gospel no need of research. When we come to believe, we have no desire to believe anything else; for we begin by believing that there is nothing else which we have to believe."
Kei/Yuri:
My point is that the reasons for which Dom considers Xianity "the least respectable religion out there" are actually not unique to Christianity, nor are they particularly uncommon, for that matter.
I confess that I probably didn't make this clear enough.
Also, he uses the superlative: "the least respectable." By defininition, that means that Christianity is unique, at least grammatically.
Xianity is shit. If other religions out there are also shit we ain't defending them. But for you to say Xianity cannot be shit because it borrowed some point from a long-dead Celtic co-opted feast day, say, is kind of, ah, Castro put it thus: insufficiently imbued with Revolutionary conciousness.
Hey how is this for a prediction: Darth is going to issue a non-response!!!
Xianity is shit.
It's a belief system, like any other. If electing to not "hate" an abstraction makes me insufficiently imbued with revolutionary consciousness, so be it. I'd say Pat Robertson is a shit; Jerry Falwell, a shit; George W. Bush, a shit, a tool, and a major league asshole; but Xianity? I might as well say that the solar calendar is shit.
It's not the religion that is shit, it's what people do in its name.
Renato, your "Galileo argument" is unfortunate, but why was he not killed, but instead only forced to accept the authority of the Church. They were not against scientific discovery, but against the undermining of the authority of the church.
Inevitably scientific discovery DOES/DID undermine the authority of the Church.
It's like saying, "It's OK to be a Democrat so long as none of them are elected to any office, anywhere."
Why wasn't Galileo executed or tortured? Perhaps because he was persuaded with the threat of torture and execution to recant, which he did.
(N.B. This is not dissimilar to prosecutorial tactics of our day. A suspect is given a choice between pleading guilty to a lesser charge which carries a lighter sentence, which nevertheless still makes him a felon, or else face a trial with an uncertain outcome and the possibility of receiving a rather draconian 'mandatory minimum' sentence.)
Copernicus so feared the Inquisition that he did
Copernicus so feared the Inquisition that he did not publish his De revolutionibus orbium coelestium until near death.
Father Giordano Bruno was tortured and burned to death for advocating Copernicus' theories.
They lured Giordano Bruno to Rome with the promise of a job, where he was immediately turned over to the Inquisition and charged with heresy.
Giordano Bruno spent the next eight years in chains in the Castel Sant’Angelo, where he was routinely tortured and interrogated until his trial. Immediately after the death sentence was handed down, Giordano Bruno’s jaw was clamped shut with an iron gag, his tongue was pierced with an iron spike and another iron spike was driven into his palate. On February 19, 1600, he was driven through the streets of Rome, stripped of his clothes and burned at the stake.
Come on, people. Christ converted to Islam! It's the laws of the Qur'an you have to worry about now!
I would recommend that people check out Earl Doherty's book "The Jesus Puzzle". It's a pretty strong examination of the idea that Jesus never really existed and is a pure fictional creation by the writers of the New Testament.
I just don't subscribe to your mythology Ms. Grills...respect my authoritas!! or at least the Constitution's.
Renato --
if you have to bring in Hitler, I'd have to mention that he had nothing to do with bringing Germany out of hyperinflation (that was overcome by the Stresemann government in early 1924, nine years before Hitler came to power). In 1932 the German economy was suffering badly from the post-1929 worldwide economic crisis, but that did not involve the Reichsmark so much as mass unemployment. (And quite a few of the projects Hitler later implemented such as the building of autobahns had already been worked out under preceding governments). BTW, I'm not so sure about "atrocities committed in their name" - that sounds a bit too much as if Hitler and Mussolini had not been responsible for them.
I am no feeble Christ not me. He hangs in glib delight upon his cross, above my body. Christ forgive. FORGIVE? I vomit for you Jesu. Shit forgive. Down from your cross. Down from your papal heights, from that churlish suicide petulant child. Down from those pious heights, royal flag bearer, goat, billy. I vomit for you. Forgive? Shit he forgives. He hangs in crucified delight nailed to the extent of his vision, his cross, his manhood, violence, guilt, sin. He would nail my body upon his cross, suicide visionary, death reveller, rake, rapist, lifefucker, Jesu, earthmover Christus, gravedigger, you dug the graves of Auschwitz, the soil of Treblinka is your guilt, your sin, master, master of gore, enigma. You carry the standard of your oppression. Enola is your gaiety. The bodies of Hiroshima are your delight the nails are your only trinity, hold them in your corpsey gracelessness, the image I have had to suffer. The cross is the virgin body of womanhood that you defile. You nail yourself
I don't trust either group(god people or atheists). Both groups aspire to power and wealth through any means possible. Some are just more subtle about it.
Sure as Sam Clements once said you could float a navy on the blood that was spilled in the name of God. But Secularists are working real hard to catch up. Violence/death is a language that both have in common.
Secularism brought us the religons of Darwinian Capitalism and Marxism/Communism. The former still being with us in the guise of corporatism and colonialism.
Secularism and its attendent philosophies spawned creatures like Hitler Stalin, Mao, Saddam and Lil Kim. These critters slayed more than all the inquistions combined in the last 1500 years.
Plenty of blood to go around.
You nail yourself to your own sin. Lame arse Jesus calls me sister there are no words for my contempt, every woman is a cross in his filthy theology, his arrogant delight. He turns his back upon me in his fear, he dare not face me. Fearfucker. Share nothing you Christ, sterile, impotent, fucklove prophet of death. You are the ultimate pornography, in your cuntfear, cockfear, manfear, womanfear, unfair warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare, warfare.
JESUS DIED FOR HIS OWN SINS, NOT MINE
Wanna know how to piss off an evangelist ranting about "the Rapture"? Ask if you can have their VCR after they've been "Raptured". If they continue, then push it further. Run your hand over their bike or car. Ask how big their house is and what the address is. Ask them if they'll leave their PIN and bankcard behind...
I hope that the general level of political knowledge in this group is higher than the theological level, because many of you speak loudly of what you only know of in passing, and it's as screwed up as the "Darth" Grills is.
Don-
Please enlighten us to the real truth of religion and how one can be wrong about something that no one has been proven right about in all of history.
One might claim to know everything there is to know about the physiology of Smurfs Or one is a master unicorn horn chef and speaks fluent Atlantian, with an American accent of course.
All this religion crap scares me silly.
The fact of the matter is that most of things that you cite about Christianity aren't even original to Christianity. The "divine redeemer," the "scapegoat," pagan monotheism (monotheism that recognizes more than one divine beings), and ritualized cannabalism. All of these things preceded Christianity by centuries or more. Traces of them are still found in many other religions around the world.
So? I understand that you object to my using the term least, but considering the vast influence of modern Christianity I am afraid I must stand by that statement. Sure there is nothing new under the sun, Christ worship does borrow for other religions. Still I suppose I should have made it clear I am talking about modern times. In the Olden Days, people had at least some what an excuse in believing in silly superstitions.
Christianity remains the religion for people that refuse to grow up.
Jeezus Louiseus. Jiminy Christmas. Jeepers Criminey. Jebus H. Cripes.
Which Invisible Superhero in Outer Space do YOU support, and which of His (Her/Its) teachings do YOU follow?
What a ridiculous load of hooey. Crikey!!
PeWi:
no, the Galileo argument holds: Galileo's friends were too powerful and protected him. Giordano Bruno's weren't, and he was burned alive.
Very Christian.
Jesus taught that unless you obey God’s Old Testament laws to the letter, you don’t have a fighting chance at getting into heaven
right, which would explain why Jesus also said the prostitutes and money-changers were more likely to get into heaven than his own desciples.
Smarter superstitions, please.
and on the sixth day, Grand Moff Texan learned to spell ...
"Losing the Kingdom is like a woman who was carrying home a large jar full of meal. Some distance from her home the bottom of the jar broke, and the meal began emptying onto the road behind her a little at a time. As she approached her home at nightfall, she couldn’t help congratulating herself. How strong she was to carry her burden so easily!" (Gospel of Thomas, Dead Sea Scrolls)
Christianity is a mystery religion. It makes about as much sense to decry its contradictions as to treat one's own shallow, dogmatic views as pertinent to the lives of others.
It's not a dogma, it is a mystery. It is not an entitlement, it is a gift, hard earned. Anyone who thinks that it comes easy, or that berating and judging one's neighbors is walking that path is an idiot.
Any Buddhist or Hindu could tell you that the life of spirit is hard work. Working one's lips is not generally the work of the heart.
I think it's time God reread the OT. There's just not enough smiting going on anymore. He let those old school Israelies smite whole nations of people. Now days people call that genocide and say it's bad.
No offense to my Lord and Savior, but if you ask me, a little time spent reading Little Green Footballs would do Him a lot of good. It'd put Him back into OT form in no time.
Heterosexually yours,
Shorter Judeo-Christian religion:
AND GOD SAID
[redacted]
"...for you to mind me until he gets back." -Stinky MacFarland translation
... He then quoted the harrowing thing that Jesus, according to Saint Matthew, had promised to say in the Person of God to sinners on Judgement Day.
This is it: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Those words appalled me then, and they appall me now. They are surely the inspiration for the notorious cruelty of Christians.
"Jesus may have said that," I told Larkin, "but it is so unlike most of what else He said that I have to conclude that He was slightly crazy that day."
-- Kurt Vonnegut, Jailbird
Believe what ever the fuck you want, just keep it out of my face and keep it out of the USA's legislative process if you please.
Believe what ever the fuck you want, just keep it out of my face and keep it out of the USA's legislative process if you please.
Fuckin' Ay-men to that.
Bad enough to have Tom DeLay involved in the Congressional dance, I don't need Tom's (or Dubya's or anyone else's) Imaginary Object of Worship throwing his two cents in as well.
just keep it out of my face and keep it out of the USA's legislative process
that is the beginning and end of all wisdom.
laws need a rational basis -- not religious.
That's what the fight against Judge Moore,the Christian Reconstructionists, and the 20M fundy voters (including my sister and Mom) that Rove has on a string.
This guy is crazy: Jesus basically told folks to give the old testament the old heave ho when he said that he had a new rule for them to follow and it was the most important one: love thy neighbor as thyself for the love of him. That was it.
I know the Republicans would love to believe Jesus would be on Jerry Falwell's show and raising money for W, but the fact of the matter is that he wouldn't: he'd be working with the poorest of the poor, with the sick and destitute.
Who taught these people how to read the bible???
Atrios, your favorite writer, Gregg Easterbrook, had a lot to say on this very topic, and even wrote a book about it as well as covering it, in of all places, his ESPN TMQ feature...
do we need another Martin Luther to take on the evangelicals?
If a town didn’t accept it, the disciples were to brush the dust of that town off their feet and move on.
Actually, Paul the apostle-come-lately said this, not Jesus. This guy Grills doesn't even know his own Bible.
Never, ever trutst a fundamentalist to get the Bible right--they're the ones who managed to morph "love your neighbor" into "kill your neighbor."
Brace yourselves, people: Jesus wasn’t at all like Gandhi, Confucius or even Martin Luther King Jr.
So it really was "blessed are the cheesemakers"?
Bloody a la carte christians. "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only." James 1:22
(For Rush, Newt, Bill Bennett, Ted Stevens, Henry Hyde, Bob Barr, Dick Armey, Tom DeLay, Bob Livingston, J.C. Watts, John Rowland ... I'll stop there, Haloscan has a 1000 character limit.)
Here's the deal. You can go about trying to establish your own righteousness thru the Law or you can rely on the finnished work of Christ. The Law was given to break men so that they would turn to Christ for salvation. There is no going back to the Law for Christians. Read Romans or Hebrews. The Law is the third rail for genuine Christians. Paul the great expounder of Christian doctrine spent the majority of his ministry combating on the notion of forsaking the indwelling Spirit of Christ for the letter of the Law.
The Old Testament to the letter....Is that why Christians eat ham on Easter?
The first thing a new Christian is handed is a Bible. It is muy importante.
The above is obvious nonsense.
For "new" Christians like myself, who were baptised into the faith as infants, the "first thing" we were "handed" was a cup of water poured over our heads. Put another way, we were exposed to Christianity as a social institution or as a broad set of family ritualistic practices long before we could spell, much less read the Bible. That is how we learned what the Bible and Christianity "meant."
Similarly, in my observation, new converts to Christianity are usually "handed" as a "first thing" not the Bible alone but rather the Bible (if at all, at first) simultaneously with a first hand opportunity to observe Christianity as a set of social practices, in the form of the altar call, the weekend service, the prayer rally, the revival meeting, the church breakfast or the congregation's picnic. The convert is drawn towards the religion as a family, co
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The convert is drawn towards the religion as a family, community or support group more than they are as the religion as cold words on a page. The convert is taught that the word makes no sense if not learned in conjunction with participation and mimicry of a social group of practitioners.
By Grills' logic, if you took a pagan or a Martian; put them in a closed room with a copy of the Good Book and had them read it cover to cover; that after the last page of Revelations, they would close the book and arrive at the inevitable conclusion that the Book can and must be put into practice in only one possible way: by starting up "The 700 Club."
do we need another Martin Luther to take on the evangelicals?
"...Falwell called police after discovering 95 Post-It notes stuck on the door of his office at Liberty University..."
No one has the right to judge my relationship with God, whether that relationship is worshipful devotion or total rejection and disbelief. Others have a right to judge and limit my actions, but NO ONE has any business interfering in my personal relationship with God.
Beth | 01.03.04 - 2:14 pm
Amen, Beth. And that's why there is supposed to be separation of church and state.
And while I can understand the righteous and justifiable anger at the hypocrites and fundies who want to turn the US into a theocracy, why all this piling on?
If religion annoys you, shake the dust from your shoes and move on. But don't tar us all with the same brush. There are lots of us religious liberals out there and we lefty types need all the allies we can get.
Close italics!
Sorry about that.
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