I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
For the first time since March, a non-repulsive Friedman column. Amazing.
" Palestinians, gripped by a collective madness..."
Collective madness - isn't that like voting Republican?
Collective madness - so, is it that all Palestinians think the same? Hmm, sounds a little hinky to me...
Would you please stop reading and caring about Thomas Friedman. He's a moustachioed (sp?) waste of space. I'm tired of the weekly analysis. Other than that, keep up the good work.
The Bush team rightly speaks of bringing justice to Iraq. It rightly denounces Palestinian suicide madness.
Wurlitzer: Not anti-Semitic!
But it says nothing about the injustice of the Israeli land grab in the West Bank.
Wurlitzer: Anti-Semitic!
The Bush team destroyed the Iraqi regime in three weeks and has not persuaded Israel to give up one settlement in three years.
Wurlitzer: Anti-Semitic!
To think America can practice that sort of hypocrisy and win the war of ideas in the Arab-Muslim world is a truly dangerous fantasy.
Wurlitzer: Anti-Semitic!
This Just Occurred To Me:
Since we gave Saddam Hussein status as a POW, he is probably receiving better and more humane treatment than the US citizens the Bush administration has imprisoned, often without any solid evidence, as "enemy combatants." Just food for thought...
Have a nice, hot Cup O' Joe!
The GOP swine are insane when it comes to Isreali-Palestinian policy, but visionary where the Iraqui war is concerned.
Now I get it.
Rove memo to Tom Friedman
re: War of Ideas Part 4
Tom,
Stick to principle, stick to principle...Don't waver.
Love, Turdblossom
A Picklerization:
When Thomas Friedman said that U.S. policy was dangerously adrift, he failed to mention that he once wrote a book about his own experiences in the Middle East and would benefit financially from a renewal of interest in that book that criticism of the president might spawn.
Looks like Tom missed his medication and is starting to come out of his haluci...halluc...hallllllll
Note that Palestinian suicide madness is the result of a free choice, like something Moonies would do, not the result of living in fear and like a cockroach in the most developed and water-rich corner of a backward sandbox. Similarly the '68 riots were the result of hemorrhoids negroes are susceptible to, not centuries of racism.
And perish the thought that the Zionists are the crazy ones...
Odd that Friedman doesn't see the folly of invading Iraq under these circumstances. How can moderate Arabs see the US as anything but Sharon's proxy?
hmmmmm...that didn't work, see "homepage"
remember, when people disagree with you and make you mad (and you're backed by a superb arsenal and oceans of money), the answer is to get angry and smash things. one more mature step against the resurgence of european anti-semitism...
Drip...drip...drip..
Yet another begins to see the moral and strategic bankruptcy of neo-con foriegn policy.
I just saw a movie called "The Battle of Algiers." It's pretty amazing just how much of it seems contemporary. It puts Friedman to shame.
The Arabs start a campaign of assassinations. Then a group of French terrorists (think Baruch Goldstein) murder a building full of Arabs. The French cut the Arabs off from the European quarter. It doesn't work. Then they bring in a counterinsurency expert, and they figure out how to kill all the leaders. It doesn't work. Then they break their policy of not opening fire on civilians and even that doesn't work.
In the end, all the French can do is pull out of Algeria, obvious all along. I don't think I've ever seen a movie that so perfectly expressed what's going on between the Israelis and Palestinians.
"Note that Palestinian suicide madness is the result of a free choice, like something Moonies would do, not the result of living in fear and like a cockroach in the most developed and water-rich corner of a backward sandbox. Similarly the '68 riots were the result of hemorrhoids negroes are susceptible to, not centuries of racism."
A thoughful, fair column, with one caveat: Friedman assumes that the Arab world wants to modernize. Does he not realize that the very administration he longs to snuggle with is hell-bent on adopting the same fundamentalist showdown that he wants to avoid? When you peg someone as an "evildoer," it doesn't leave much room for negotiation. This is Old Testament rhetoric, and has no place in modern society.
Unwatchably dumb SNL, suffering still from this prinze, jr-wannabe, this unfunny little spade, jimmy fallon, opens with a silly rethug attack on Dean as mindlessly vulgar. Maybe it'll reflect the improbability of the Dean-as-Nixon meme. We haven't been able to forgive SNL for sucking as it does for years now. The SNL dogma is to come up with precisely One Joke. That's it. Should a sketch last longer than a Handey Deep Thought, you of necessity repeat the One Joke- if the writers are talented, with external variations; if the writers work for SNL, just like a chant. With other sketch troupes you have true variation of the joke itself, as well as multiple "central jokes." With later SNL, it's just unending ruminating on the androgyny of Pat or the naming guy by the copier, or the lust of various men for Mango, or whatever. Phil Hartman we hardly knew ye...
"Odd that Friedman doesn't see the folly of invading Iraq under these circumstances."
Exactly! Tom's grip on sanity must be pretty tenuous if he can describe the 'motivations' behind the Iraq invasion as good but the motivations behind US policy on Israel as 'insane'.
If Gore or Dean were President right now and read Friedman's column, what would either do about the Israelis and Palestinians? What steps would either take?
I'm just curious. Is there a constructive way for a US president to get involved without committing political suicide? What's the obvious first step?
Battle of Algiers kicked ass and like Z and Joe McGuiness's Selling of the President 1968 hasn't really aged. The director took pains to give even the torturing imperialists a fair hearing. The kind of movie you only see in America on paper (thus JoeMac reference).
Even better. The Arab woman goes into a cafe to plant her bomb and the French aren't even rude to her.
One man (who is probably the first to get ripped to shreds by the bomb) gives up his seat so she could place her order.
"director took pains to give even the torturing imperialists a fair hearing."
"Ideally, this withdrawal should be negotiated along the Clinton plan."
Yep; no turkee for Tom.
Friedman comes up for air once in a while and makes sense. now that he's had his monthly breathe, we can probably assume he's not going to say anything nearly as cogent for a long long time.
swr-recall that the "real" spectrum of options for israel goes from kissing sharon's tahat to suggesting ever so gently that we ask that israel obey the same laws everyone else does, while doubling our strong stand on the weak palestinians again.
but for those not dead to hope, we might consider the idea that blair's liplocked bush-support came out of a misguided belief that bush might do something in return, specifically get real with sharon. there are actually precedents in history-from republican presidents, forsooth, until nixon extended his racist strategies beyond our borders, of american leaders joining the un in expecting israel to behave. eisenhower, especially.
there are anticastro people in miami, who, unlike the standard mentally ill nazis, think the way to liberate cuba is with open arms, freer trade, playbboys and budweiser and televisions. similarly there is a very slowly growing group of americans who understand what a disgusting lie it is that zionists appropriate in addition to other racist lies the dumb concept of an ideologically uniform "world jewry" (see world jewry mentioned, and odds are nowadays it's not part of an antisemitic rant but a zionist speech). when americans close with the israelis, who themselves hate the zionists and would be willing to give up the illegal settlements for peace, and who do not suffer from the lies americans believe, it will be possible to pursue realistic propects for peace.
and it may not hurt that this is the zionazis' time to shine, the zionazis have complete control and everything that goes wrong is pretty much their fault or their omission. not that our media will hold them to it.
"What's the obvious first step?"
Fund the Palestinians to the same level (proportionately) as the Israelis with the understanding that:
* funds will be withdrawn if suicide bombings continue
* real negotiations begin on drawing equitable borders
* Israel must allow UN peacekeepers in to monitor borders, as in, say, Cyprus
* walls, fences etc removed
* Jewish settlements in Palestinian areas removed
It would take immense guts to face down both sides. But rewarding them with $$$ for genuine progress would go a long way.
Shortly after this all happens, I'll be offering trips to the moon on my gossamer wings...
I believe Wesley Clark's come out in support of the wall and Dean's too afraid to talk about the issue any more.
"* walls, fences etc removed"
uh oh, somebody tell the morons at little green footballs they may have given away their award too early.
Whether or not W is serious about the words that spill from his mouth is open to debate. But he's playing a dangerous game. Pitting the wacko Christian fundamentalists against the wacko Muslim fundamentalists is not a good idea. Does he really know what he's setting in motion? I realize he's too cowardly to play for keeps, but I think he should step back and consider that not everyone is as chickenshit as he is.
This is not a specious question, although it may come across as one, since I'm Jewish. However, anything I've read about the modern history of the region (which I confess isn't much) usually seems slanted one way or the other, so I am asking this seriously.
Anybody want to speculate on what life would have been like for the Palestinians if Israel never existed? Or what it would be like now if israel ceased to exist?
In other words, let's pretend the Jews aren't there.
Re: Tonight's SNL
Holy shit, it sucks. I haven't watched the thing in a couple of years, and it's gotten even worse - bad even for them, and that's saying something. The attack sketch on Dean was right along SCLM lines - pathetic. And I'll forgive comedy almost anything if it's actually funny - not the case here.
Just monstrously shitty stuff (which will probably be played on all the morning shows tomorrow - like that Gore debate sketch - to seal the deal on presenting Dean as the mean guy).
Where have you gone, Mr. Show? Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you (woo woo woo).
Wouldn't you also have to take the Russians, British and Americans out of the equation?
Anybody want to speculate on what life would have been like for the Palestinians if Israel never existed? Or what it would be like now if israel ceased to exist?
Town Drunk: Ol' Georgie has enough dough to load up and clear out when the religious war commences. Unfortunately for the rest of us, he seems only to care about re-election and will use this to get his base to the polls regardless of its long term consequences.
Stop giving money, to everyone, at once. Israel exists and behaves as it does because of its massive money pipeline from America.
The Arab states around it are in no state to attack and Israel would be able to hold its own for months after a cut-off.
Without the "great unanswered injustice" of the illegal land grabs and permanant "refugee" (concentration) camps, terror groups would lose their great cause-and with it their recruitment and their chutzpah.
Ditching Israel's backward barbarian religious premise for a secular, deliberately, passionately secular and irreligious government would not only resolve the present crisis and unseat the Zionist god-conversant murderers (as well as the antisemites who blame everything on the Jewish nature of the state) but also would help the Israeli Jews who soon will be looking at a large Palestinian majority to deal with.
A return to the tolerant multicultural Philistine land of the past is inevitable-but how soon it comes, through a temporary two-state "commonwealth" or another war or worse, depends on how soon America and Israel are able to dump its Zionist cancer.
Unwatchably dumb SNL
i told you all, if we were living in a real world, the big catchprase this week on SNL would be "yer the Chief O' Staff, aintcha? THINK YA CAN GIT ME A CHEESEBURGER?!?!?!?"
Anybody want to speculate on what life would have been like for the Palestinians if Israel never existed? Or what it would be like now if israel ceased to exist?
In other words, let's pretend the Jews aren't there.
i'm confused: do you mean the palestinians would hold themselves in concentration camps of their own accord, for the hell of it? of course, you're confused. you said "jews" instead of "stern gang zionists"-the "jews" have always been there and for the most part have been tolerated better than any ay-rab could expect from a chosen person of god. the animosity comes from all these white people invading and settling between and after the wars.
If Israel had never existed, daily life would be like it is in Egypt, Jordan,and Syria.
It's a nice life, if you've ever been to any of those places. The weather is always superb -- warm, sunny, cool at night; as long as you keep you head covered from the relentless sun. No-one works very hard, at least that I saw. Lots of sitting around drinking tea in cafes.
In the cities, people work from 9 to 12, take a five-hour siesta and then *maybe* go back to work 5-7. Then they go cafe-hopping, and then to the discos in the big cities. Countryside is farming, mostly orchards of olives and apricots etc. Lots of sheep and chickens.
Wendy-also-scapegoat antisemitism towards israel is for the Arab governments like the American scapegoating of Communism, an excuse for arming and a distraction from domestic incompetence. If Palestine were just another Arab state, they wouldn't be able to blame everything on the Jews.
The "D" word has been uttered in the press -- Deserter!
Is Bush a deserter? This is the question reporters asked Wesley Clark on Saturday, after Michael Moore called Bush a "deserter".
Hooray!
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news..._on_el_pr/
clark
BTW, there are already 19739 comments, many from Veterans who can't stand Bush.
Glad to see SNL is still getting good mileage out of those Monica Lewinsky jokes. Nothing like staying topical.
Promised Land
I went on down to the Promised Land
Had a contract with a Demiurge that got out of hand
But a Promise is a Promise and a Deal is a Deal
There's gas in the jet and blood on the Wheels
Fire and Brimstone, Mercy and Mayhem
Suicide Bombers and Homesteading Golem
Pick up a rock and let that rock fly
Little Arab boy took a bullet in his eye
Little Jewish Girl had her head blown off
The Killing Switch has an On but no Off
And so at last who's right and who's wrong?
The Right will count the dead and the Wrong will sing along
The Right will count the dead and the Wrong will sing along...
***
Deserter story in Sunday's Washington Post, Page A05:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...-
2004Jan17.html
Clark is presenting himself very well in this delicate situation. PS - George McGovern to endorse Clark on Sunday, campaign with him in New Hampshire.
Nice to see this deserter story get coverage right before the State of the Union focus on Bush.
I have never forgiven Will Ferrell for going for the dumb Bush instead of the mean Bush impression.
Lazy bastards. Stopped watching about 2 years ago. Not funny; not even a little.
Hey Wendy,
What if Bush had been born a girl? Do you think that would make a difference?
Go to the loser alternative history discussion groups. Dumbass.
wendy's question was valid but poorly phrased
So much tedious dribble.
We have enough problems dealing with the real world without being distracted by "what-ifs" from alternate universes.
That's why I reacted that way. Ignore the distractions.
I think you mean "tebious drivel".
I'm confused by the Tom F. column. I thought it was all France's fault? Is this the real Tom or the pod Tom?
Anybody want to speculate on what life would have been like for the Palestinians if Israel never existed? Or what it would be like now if israel ceased to exist?
Probably the Palestinians would lead daily lives much as, say, Jordanians do today. Materially, not great, but NO DAILY HUMILIATIONS AND ABUSE.
Iowa Poll tables and graphs
God I wish I knew how to boldface:
``Ideally, this withdrawal should be negotiated ALONG THE CLINTON PLAN.''
Ah, the good old days, when the administration formulated policy, made plans to implement it, worked like dogs to bring enemies together, and THEN looked at the political side. Of course, it's much easier now, when you just go straight to the political sell and hope Powell can fix the policy later, if they even give that much of a damn.
In other words, Palestinians would experience a certain amount of human dignity.
Some people care about those silly things.
Friedman can't write an article without the word humilate or some version thereof.
Is there some secret S&M fetish he is hiding?
Friedman, as mouthpiece of Empire, is obliged to anaesthesize himself to any nagging human remnant that might prevent him from laughing with the good citizenry of Oceania at the hilarious newsreel short of the women and children in the lifeboat getting machine gunned. The bitch is, he presumes to offer this clinical objectivity to others.
But what does Howard Dean and his wife's lack of involvement have anything to do with this?
Maureen...I need you to rescue the Op-Ed section, STAT!
I must be in a dream state - Is the byline right, was that Friedman I just read? Their may be hope for the boy after all.
"What's the obvious first step?"
1. Stop giving our arms manufacturers $3bn dollars worth of pork each year to send yet more arms to Israel. And stop arming the Saudis and the GCC monarchies at the same time: there's a regional arms race in the most militarized area on earth, and we're arming all sides. Stupidstupidstupid.
2. Announce that we will provide unconditional security guarantees to Israel within its June 4, 1967 borders, but that we will no longer support financially or diplomatically the creeping annexation of the West Bank and Gaza and Israel's past and continuing violations of international law. ie no more vetoes to protect Israel from the kind of international sanctions that brought down apartheid.
3. Announce that in view of our defense commitment to our strategic ally, Israel, we are unable to play the role of honest broker in the peace process, and we are butting out. Request that the UN take the lead in brokering a settlement, and guarantee the UN our full support for any peace deal based on the implementation of relevant international law.
4. Fund independent Palestine dollar-for-dollar at the rate we subsidize Israel.
Whoa, what was that? Pigs flying?
probably every single "little nigger" rhyme from the british empire is the historical parallel for friedman's gloating superior attitude ("you want 1390? we can do 1390."). cf the night club girl who sings the praises of the Norse britons in "V for Vendetta."
I'm sure he'll apologize in his next column.
-Atrios
I'm sure he will. Or face becoming irrelevant...
Secularhuman: Did you hear the interview Powell did on "The World" NPR with Lisa Mullen? I can only imagine that if we put our magic glasses on to look at him, he would now be "one of them". Sad, sad, sad... (Trying to remember the movie with Roddy Piper?)
"What's the obvious first step?"
STOP FUNDING WEAPONS.
God I wish I knew how to boldface
Angle bracket (above the comma), type b, close the angle bracket (above the period). Type in the text you want bolded, or paste it, whatever. Afterwards, angle bracket, slash below the question mark, type b, close angle bracket.
And there you go. (To italicize, replace b wit i.)
cf the night club girl who sings the praises of the Norse britons in "V for Vendetta."
fried man
Londonderry airs?
Excuse me for hopping off topic (unless media whoredom could be considered a sub-topic), but I got a kick out of this. Looks like Wesley Clark is having the last laugh on a certain population of Heathers:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/
eBayISAPI...item=3655267737
Snort!
no, no, no-you don't understand, we were so close-by stuffing all kikes into israel and sponsoring terror on all sides, we're not just closer to the Solution. we're closer to the Return of Jeeesus!
Not that I'm God, exactly....
I think Wendy's question could be rephrased as what do the Palestinians want?
It's actually a pretty good place to start.
Go to the loser alternative history discussion groups. Dumbass.
We should be gentle with ol' Tom. It's been awhile since he has written a column that comes within a football field of sanity. It gets right to the point without using one of his lunatic set-up analogies. And it makes the very good point that unilateral withdrawal from the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza is something that will ultimately benefit Israel. That alone will be enough for a number of people to accuse him of anti-semitism. We need to be there for him when this happens; at least until his next column.
All three states are authoritarian, although none approaches the totalitarianism of Saudi Arabia.
Until recently, I believe, Palestinian and Israeli Arabs had one of the higher standards of living in the Arab world.
So there was nothing inevitable about the slow motion ethnic cleansing that Sharon and the Likud party are engaging in now. Had moderates been in control right after Camp David, the Palestinians might be envied right now.
But then Sharon invaded Lebanon and the moment was lost.
If Israel had never existed, daily life would be like it is in Egypt, Jordan,and Syria.
It's a nice life, if you've ever been to any of those places. The weather is always superb -- warm, sunny, cool at night; as long as you keep you head covered from the relentless sun. No-one works very hard, at least that I saw. Lots of sitting around drinking tea in cafes.
boy, i can't believe that was friedman writing. is it possible he suffered a massive personality shift and yet still managed to hit his deadline?
all this what-if about the middle east is just ridiculous.
what is, is. it must be dealt with fairly and (as much as is possible) impartially from here on out.
this means not only re-imposing 1967 borders, but providing quality support for the arabs within the "palestinian" areas.
if israel prefers to remain jewish-only, that's fine. but the arabs have to be citizens of something, and that's the next step, then.
the sooner we get this shit on the road, the sooner we can hope to possibly avoid creating Iran II: The Heretic in eye-rack.
and my kids won't get drafted by the Unelected Fraud when he inevitably resurrects that evil institution after his "re-election."
I've been searching frantically for a story that appeared in "Jewsweek"(I'm not kidding, that's the name) magazine several weeks ago.
Friedman gave a talk on the middle East, and after he was done, a member of the audience said to him (I can't forget this quote): "So you're ready to sacrifice Israel on the alter of Iraq?" Friedman freaked out, and then the fisticuffs started!
Maybe Friedman is beginning to figure it out just a little.
No matter what he ever says again I can never forgive him for advocating atrocities against the Iraqis in his column.
I don't believe Friedman wrote that column. It reads much more like Hitchens or at any rate someone British and/or trenchant.
Where are the contorted metaphors? Where is the mealymouthedness? No, I don't believe it.
I haven't read all the comments, but I saw some people early on talking about the movie The Battle of the Algiers. I haven't seen it, but I think you might be interested to know that it is being rereleased into American theatres.
Click here for the trailer
Folks.. anyone REMEMBER that George W. and his pals PAID OFF Israel prior to the Iraq war. $8 BILLION !!!
Turkey received $1 Billion, Egypt, Jordan... they all received bribe money. Your money - tax money !!!
But Israel received $8 BILLION !!!
What kind of extortion does Israel have to get that kind of wad?
Re: SNL, the closing sketch introducing, alongside Chicken of the Sea brand tuna, Tuna of the Dirt brand chicken, Turkey of the Jungle brand bananas, and Pork of the Orchard brand apples, was really funny. At least to me. At least at 1 AM.
(Yes, the Dean sketch was lame.)
Does he really know what he's setting in motion? I realize he's too cowardly to play for keeps, but I think he should step back and consider that not everyone is as chickenshit as he is.
No. You're making the mistake of thinking that Bush is capable of critical thought.
As for Friedman, this is the first thoughtful, rational column he's written in a while. The admin's policy is insane. Bush could have reined in Sharon back in the early part of the intifada. While Sharon ran wild, the US said nothing. Bush is so fixated on satisfying the wacko end-timers that he's let the situation deteriorate into a sinkhole of distrust and hatred that will take a generation to repair.
Friedman told the hard truth for once, for which he'll be promptly vilified by administration flunkies tomorrow.
I think I read somewhere that The Battle of Algiers has actually been shown via the American military to decision-making level people headed out to Iraq. Can anyone confirm this?
Hollinger Removes Conrad Black and Sues Him
Reuters | January 17, 2004 | Martha Graybow
Newspaper publisher Hollinger International Inc. said late on Saturday it was ousting media tycoon Conrad Black as its chairman and suing him and one of his top deputies for more than $200 million.
The lawsuit filed by a special committee of the company's independent board members charged that Black and Hollinger Inc. -- a Toronto-based holding company through which he controls Hollinger International -- together with former president and chief operating officer David Radler, collected unjustified and excessive management fees and altered company books and records to conceal their actions.
Hollinger International, which owns the Chicago Sun-Times and Britain's Daily Telegraph among other newspapers, said in a statement that by action of its board, Black ``has been removed as non-executive chairman of the company, effective immediately.''
Very interesting. Friedman been on the neocon train for the last year, and now this. He seems to want it both ways. No doubt the Likudniks, the JDL, JINSA, AEI, PNAC, and all the rest, will be ringing him up with threats. Want to bet he'll be taking an extended "vacation" soon?
With articles like this, who the fuck needs hack comedy writers?
preznit no kal freedman pritee!
'04 Election Could Be 2000 Redux
A new CBS News/N.Y. Times poll shows the 2004 campaign mirroring the super-tight presidential election of 2000 so far. If the election were held today, 45% of voters say they would vote Democratic, while 43% would opt for President Bush.
Oh, and by 'hack comedy writers' I mean the SNL staff and Tom.
friedman ONLY makes sense when he keeps to the Israeli conflict, he should STAY there.
and SNL not funny? i thught the chicken of the sea, tuna of the dirt sketch was hilarious. and i don't even watch that newlywed MTV show.
Friedman's quite correct. Israel's position is just untenable. Israel needs to withdraw, not for Palestinians' sakes, but for its own. Its defenses are spread quite thin, and these settlements only inflame the Palestinians.
Of course, it could be construed as giving in to terrorism. However, that's just plain bullshit. Unilaterally withdraw if that's what is needed. At the very least, unilateral withdrawal will give the Palestinians an incentive to negotiate peaceably instead of sending more terrorists. Arafat should still be treated as irrelevant unless he makes some real concessions, key amongst them dismantling terrorist groups. Still, withdrawal is in Israel's long-term strategic interests. As for America's part, we should at least cut substantially any aid, if not eliminate all of it together. At the same time, we must impress upon the EU not to aid the PA anymore as well. Keep an eye on the region, without getting too intertwined should be our goal.
The overtly innocent tone of Wendy's question smells of baiting; I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm not giving her an excuse to point to this thread as an orgy of anti-Semitic fantasizing.
Hopefully, Friedman has come to the same conclusion as dozens of Israeli soldiers, pilots and even the IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Yaalon. Even hardliners are coming to see that the current policy will never work and isn't in the best interests of Israel or her security. Conservative columnist Georgie Anne Geyer had a similar column last month. Hopefully, this opinion is becoming mainstream enough that Friedman isn't bullied into writing an apology.
"Very interesting. Friedman been on the neocon train for the last year, and now this. He seems to want it both ways."
Hornito
Eggs-ackly! Thanks Hornito. You got that just right as far as I'm concerned. And when someone tells him he can't have it both ways, he starts swinging!
Whaaaa? Friedman's sounding like he did ten years ago, when he was sane. Did the drugs wear off?
Some good news to pass on:
-- Bush's 'Saddam Bounce' is gone. He's back down to 50%. (Thank you, Paul O'Neill!)
-- The Democrats are beating Bush in the 2004 race, 45%-43%. And that's without a single deciding primary/caucus vote cast. (DC's vote was non-binding, alas.)
Everyone -- please cease your tedious dribble.
As for America's part, we should at least cut substantially any aid, if not eliminate all of it together. At the same time, we must impress upon the EU not to aid the PA anymore as well.
I get your drift, but to state it more accurately, you cut the aid to punish behavior you don't want and restore it to reward behavior you do want. But if either Europe or America withdraw the aid all together, they lose the leverage of its influence. The problem is, we don't use the lever at all or use it effectively.
Add to your list "satiRic", the 400 rabbis who signed a letter of protest demanding the release of Rabbi Ascherman for his protests. Israel has been taken over by fascist military generals (including Sharon) and Likunks, who are a minority of the populace, much as the neocons here in the U.S. are in the minority. In both cases, these people need to be rounded up, chraged and tired for treason and murder, and then given the proper sentences.
Yeah, the Battle of Algiers was screened at the Pentagon a few months ago.
Clearly, Friedman just neglected to drink the Kool-Aid before writing this piece. I'm sure he'll have some on hand before sitting down to write his next column.
OT, but the new Get Your War On strip is up, and it's hysterical.
Um, correction there, I meant to say "Likudniks"...
And I meant to say "dribble", goddamnit. Leave me alone, you stalkers. Read Humpty Dumpty and try and be as smart as me. I mean, I. I mean, dribble.
Woohoo! I successfully italicized. Thanks Thersites.
Friedman has always been the best mainstream columnist on Israel and Palestine. This column's position isn't anything new for him at all: his standard epithet for the settlement program is "colonialist". It's his position on Iraq that surprised me, very much and very unhappily.
I'm even a little to Friedman's left here: I think the Administration has quietly been coercing Sharon. Now that he's renounced Greater Israel, the argument will just be over the placement of the Wall—reluctantly, I'm now for a wall, but much, much closer to the Green Line—and how many settlements get taken down. We can pressure Israel on that for years (they can always build a new wall) and it even has some slight potential to bring Palestinians to the table.
I might be wrong, Sharon might have come to this relative wisdom on his own. History shows no reason to think that. Certainly his party hasn't budged from its nationalist fantasies.
Why is nobody paying attention to me? I want attention! Somebody talk to me! You're all dribblers! I hate you! I hate all of you! It's not easy to type and masturbate at the same time, and I want somebody to congratulate me! Talk to me! Dribblers!!
Strangely enough, Sharon's been growing more moderate lately. Not enough, to be sure, but he has effectively pissed off many hardline Likudniks in recent months.
Lazarus, I also agree to having a wall, albeit one that adheres to the Green Line.
Sharon "more moderate"? "....the Administration has quietly been coercing Sharon."??
Are we reading the same news? We apparently do not have the same understanding of Israel's political situation, nor that as it relates to to their releationship with the Bush administration.
I see no tempering at all on Sharon's part. What I do see, is a "wall" going up, daily threats to invade Syria and attack Lebanon, and perhaps bomb Iran. These things are going on daily. That doesn't sound to me like "moderate". Sharon is playing Bush like a fiddle, aided and abbetted by the PNAC'er in the White House. Bush would sooner slap his mother than cross Arial.
Everyone -- please cease your tedious dribble.
Cause what, you're watching the shot clock?
And it's Thersites! For three!
(Crowd goes wild)
Everyone -- please cease your tedious dribble.
Cause what, you're watching the shot clock?
And it's Thersites! For three!
(Crowd goes wild)
"Why is nobody paying attention to me? I want attention! Somebody talk to me! You're all dribblers! I hate you! I hate all of you! It's not easy to type and masturbate at the same time, and I want somebody to congratulate me! Talk to me! Dribblers!!"
Cease your tedious dribble, Humpty.
Hi. I'm a double-posting Idiot.
Hi. I'm a double-posting Idiot.
Another Bruce:
Many welcomes. Please use your newfound powers for good, not evil.
It's more or less a psychological thing. Killing civilians (or "enemies") from a distance (for example, dropping bombs from an airplane) can be justified for a certain amount of time, though even that mental dodge can't be sustained for very long. When, however, you're close enough to see the damage that your weapon can cause to the human body, you can't deny that you are the one who's putting this shit down. Sure, there are certain people who enjoy this, but they're the exception. Once you're close enough to smell the gunpowder, and the expelled shit, let me know how you feel about it.
Hi. I'm a double-posting Idiot.
Indeed you are. But that's OK. it gives you something to do while I fuck your mom.
Oh, I'm kidding! I'm not really attracted to the Commodore 64.
I italicize every word, spilling over,
Jediflyer
Thanks. Do you have a link?
" it gives you something to do while I fuck your mom."
You fuck dead people? Double-posting idiot who fucks dead people -- you're the Total Package.
Cease your tedious dribble, or I'll read you a Grimm's fairy tale and explain differential calculus to you while insisting 2+2=5.
Here you go, buddy:
http://tinyurl.com/2doxh
I don't doubt you think 2+2=5, O'Brien.
That guy above me isn't me.
Anyway, in the link I posted about 20-40 posts back, it says in the trailer for the rerelease of The Battle of the Algiers that it was shown for the pentagon.
Also, I am sure you can do a quick google search as I remember news reports on this.
"Do you have no big proprietors?" Andrés asked.
"Many."
"Then there must be abuses."
"Certainly. There are many abuses."
"But will you do away with them?"
"We try to more and more. But there are many abuses still."
"But there are not great estates that must be broken up?"
"Yes. But there are those who believe that taxes will break them up."
"How?"
Robert Jordan, wiping out the stew bowl with bread, explained how the income tax and inheritance tax worked. "But the big estates remain. Also there are taxes on the land," he said.
"But surely the big proprietors and the rich will make a revolution against such taxes. Such taxes appear to me to be revolutionary. They will revolt against the government when they see that they are threatened, exactly as the fascists have done here," Primitivo said.
"It is possible."
"Then you will have to fight in your country as we fight here."
"Yes, we will have to fight."
"But are there not many fascists in your country?"
"There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the time comes."
"But you cannot destroy them until they rebel?"
"No," Robert Jordan said. "We cannot destroy them. But we can educate the people so that they will fear fascism and recognize it as it appears and combat it."
Is double posting kind of like double dribbling?
"That guy above me isn't me."
Thanks for clarifying that. It was a big mystery.
"I don't doubt you think 2+2=5, O'Brien."
I thought I was Smith.
There you are, dear ninny mouse! I've been looking for you all over. I finally got my scrotum waxed, so you won't have to pick hair out of your teeth tomorrow morning after teabagging. 
Jediflyer
I knew it wasn't you after the "buddy." Thanks for confirming my recollection. Best---
Yeah, well, O'Brien, that's where you're wrong. Dickpipes.
"I knew it wasn't you after the "buddy.""
You're a Super Genius.
I'ts finally happened. 500 americans dead in Iraq.
While the bulk of the credit goes to the professional neoconservatives- Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney- let's not short change the contributions of us warbloggers. We all played a part in making this magnificent achievement a reality.
Dickpipes. Teabagging.
I seem to have wandered into the Lair of Desperate Middle-Aged Homosexuals.
Hey, you're not Andrew Sullivan. I'm calling the police and charging you with identity theft, stalking, and bad manners.
I could tell you weren't Andrew when you said "credit". I learned that at the Bad Detective Academy.
You checked the tinyurl, didncha?
Indeed, my precious, you have gone over the line yet again.
In the words of an old joke:
You're not really here for the hunting, are you?
Why would I check a tinyurl that a gobshite like you probably fucked up?
Go stick your tiny url into the wall socket, O'Brien.
"Indeed, my precious, you have gone over the line yet again."
What line? What "again"?
LOONY Desperate Middle-Aged Homosexual Identity Thief Necrophiliac Double-Posting Stalker Idiots
"Why would I check a tinyurl that a gobshite like you probably fucked up?"
Yep, you checked it. Sucker.
You probably fucked it up. Gobshite.
"You probably fucked it up. Gobshite."
Double posting again?
Fucking it up again?
"Fucking it up again?"
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Hi, I'm an American that puts on British affectations. I'm a loser without compare.
This tedious dribble is getting tedious and dribblous.
So, nyah, nyah, I win, you went to zzzz first. Gobshite. And I fucked your dead mom. Heoo-hah.
U.S. death toll in Iraq tops 500
and
At least 18 people were killed, two Americans and 16 Iraqis, early Sunday when a suicide car bomber detonated outside the entrance to Baghdad's Green Zone
You boys go to bed.
Only on Atrios do tedious trolls complain of tedium. Ta da!
Shit, P. Why do you introduce reality into this dreary, repetitive thread?
"Only on Atrios do tedious trolls complain of tedium. Ta da!"
How's the bait taste?
"Shit, P. Why do you introduce reality into this dreary, repetitive thread?"
You mean this thread full of tedious dribble?
I SAID GO TO BED!
When I suggested that men boldly go where they've never gone before, I wasn't suggesting that they visit the women's restroom
Eat my schmegma. And stop posting tedious dribble. Robert M. Jeffers, a/k/a Serious Self-Annointed Eschaton Intellectual, will come and beat you down with some serious Humpty Dumpty and tell you how dribble-filled your tedium is.
Dribble dribble dribble...
Friedman pulls his punches, suggesting that Israel "evacuate most of the settlements" but concluding "In sum, Israel should withdraw from the territories".
No shit, Sherlock.
bad Jim, why do you hide who you are? I can't take your opinions seriously if you don't submit to a detailed query about your blood type, favorite sandwich, place of birth, name, serial number, and rank.
Otherwise, you're just a tedious dribble machine who can't make me embarass myself.
Sorry for the diversion, everyone, I just got tempted by the stalker/troll/driblbe-maker. Let me now tell you what I had for a snack 6 minutes ago.
Smooches to all my buddies here! I love you!
Well, I agree with the column. If any progress is to be made, the first step will have to be made by Israel. Then maybe the subsequent breathing room will allow for a real peace deal.
And criticizing Friedman for not discussing Iraq more? Come on. He's got a word limit. Be happy with the little things.
Bolo,
Dribble?
Friedman may be considered unserious for suggesting that Israel not abandon all settlements.
OT, but,
Now the UN is being brought in? Ha! I thought the UN was redundant! Now they want Kofi Annan to mediate? Being originally Ghanaian, I know that Kofi Annan will welcome the 'let's all get along' tune, but I wish....oh I just wish....he would say to Bush and Bremmer 'Go fuck yourselves, you said you could handle this without us, let's see you do it.'Poetic justice indeed.
great headline Atrios.
CNN had the attack up for 20 min non-stop, nothing on fox.
Letter that I emailed to Maureen Dowd:
"It is possible that the reason that Howard Dean did not want to spend five minutes of time talking to you is that he saw the article you wrote about Wesley Clark's sweater and decided it might be more worth his time to talk to a serious journalist, one who is willing to engage in a serious discussion of the major issues of the day. It is also possible that he didn't like the nonsense you wrote about his wife.
It is a source of amazement that your columns appear in the NYT instead of Us magazine, because the later has a more suitable gravitas for the kind of piffle -- your words not mine -- that you churn out on with almost stupifying regularity. Of course, one advantage of your approach is that you don't contradict yourself with nearly every succesive column, like your colleague Tom Friedman. He is all over the place, but at least got it right today."
Coriolanus, it should not have escaped your attention that our president, and a great many other Americans, take a dim view of dark people, which is one of the reasons they don't take the UN seriously.
There's a good chance this will change within a generation, but for now it's unwise to trust anyone over fifty.
My letter to MoDo:
Ms. Dowd,
Can you offer any professional insight into what Howard Dean was wearing when he refused your call?
Cheers,
Old Hat
http://www.nydailynews.com/front...7p-
136916c.html
Off-topic: Amazing story about Donovan McNabb and the Limbaugh comments in NY Daily News. Incredible/sickening story about when the McNabbs tried to move into an all-white neighborhood.
Now this anonymous is Wile E. Coyote (America's Memory), no doubt.
Dean is just so f-ing 2003 now.
Nearly without exception, great posts folks!!!!
Thomas has either upped his meds, or skipped them, I can't figure out which?
That McNabb story was pretty sad but uplifting at the end. Disgusting that they got that kind of treatment from their "respectable" neighbors.
Damn, McNabb could throw a nasty curveball in the 7th grade? That would wreck most 12 year olds' arms. Sports prodgiy all the way.
Kudos, Old Hat. Good for you.
Isn't pretty much EVERYTHING bush thinks a truly dangerous fantasy??
SWR: Try getting ahold of, and reading, Horne's A Savage War of Peace. Colonel Massu (Colonel Matthieu in the film) wins the Battle of Algiers, and the French armed forces defeat the insurgency throughout Algeria, but the French lose their Algerian departments anyway. And it brings down the Fourth Republic, sweeps DeGaulle into power, and nearly spawns a coup in Paris.
Prewar, I looked to Algeria's 1990 elections and military takeover, and civil war, as a pattern for America's establishment of an democratic government Iraq. I might have been too pessimistic, but not because the Iraqis will not establish some kind of theocracy.
Even Ariel Sharon recognizes that the French experience in Algeria is a prototype, and said to Chirac that, unlike the French in Algeria, the Israelis will never leave the Occupied Territories. We'll see.
As for Friedman, he's stating the painfully obvious--that no Arab or Muslim will take seriously America's good, democratic intentions for the Arab world as long as Palestinians are disenfranchised. And, when four former heads of Shin Bet, and Israel's Air Force Chief of Staff, all say that Sharon's strategy makes for a more dangerous Israel, Friedman can take cover. Bush, on the other hand, has a whole constituency problem, here. He wants more American Jews to vote and contribute to the GOP, and he's got those millenialist evangelical Christians to satisfy. Even the good sense of those with impeccable Zionist (I do not mean this term to be perjorative) credentials will not be enough to sway him.
Here's a URL for a blood-curdling interview with the Israeli historian Benny Morris, whose book Righteous Victims is really the best thing to read on the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Morris has evidently completely given up on peace with the Palestinians since the failure of the talks in 2000 and the outbreak of the current intifada. His outlook at this point is hideously depressing.
This is really scary, because this guy is, in spite of some of what he says in this interview, a humane, realistic liberal.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spa...ges/
380986.html
Israel needs to withdraw, not for Palestinians' sakes, but for its own. Its defenses are spread quite thin, and these settlements only inflame the Palestinians.
Oh my oh my no. Mustn't EVER do anything for the Palestinians sake.
because this guy is, in spite of some of what he says in this interview, a humane, realistic liberal.
Wrong. He's advocating genocide, very explicitly.
And even in his better days, he managed to write whole books on the conflict without consulting a single Arab source or document.
He is a supremacist who has his facts straight. That makes him even worse than the deluded ones.
Well, my question of last night certainly provoked some unbelievable responses. Any of you who think I was baiting you are way off base.
Israel as a country and as a so-called Jewish homeland didn't exist fifty years ago. What what life like for the Palestinians back then? If the country of Israel had not been created, what would life be like for them now?
And if your response is that life would be good, then you are implying that the simple creation of the land of Israel prevented it from being that way.
I hold no brief for the policies of the current Israeli government, and no sympathy for the fundamentalist settlers who are fanatical in their pursuit of a restoration of Biblical borders.
But, folks, Israel was created to provide a home for millions of people who had suffered at the hands of the most vicious anti-Semitic regime in modern history, and who had been turned away by countries like ours when they were seeking refuge. How many Jews who moved there were looking to create trouble? Some were radical Zionists, but most weren't.
And how did all this trouble start? And who started it?
Again, this is not baiting. I just haven't seen any totally objective history of the area that isn't slanted one way or the other.
And, by the way, any of you who feel the need to go ballistic when responding to this, take a deep breath, or a Valium. I am not interested in vitriol. I'm interested in serious speculation.
Wrong. He's advocating genocide, very explicitly.
I can't see this from the interview. Morris excuses what he himself describes as war crimes in 1948, and that's bad enough. And he seems to be prepared to excuse more in the future, which is worse. But there's no need to exaggerate.
He is a supremacist who has his facts straight. That makes him even worse than the deluded ones.
He's still for a two-state deal, though he doesn't think it will bring peace.
My point is just that Morris is not nuts, not a religious fanatic, not a "Greater Israel" annexationist. He's not even right-wing. It's impossible to read his books and come away with the idea that he's an Arab-hater.
I just find it very, very sad that this is what he's come to. I don't believe he's right. But I think it's a measure of how deep the shit has become that a guy like this now sees things this way.
Prof Baruch Kimmerling of Hebrew University, Jerusalem, had the best rebuttal to Benny Morris:
"Let me extend Benny Morris's logic in arguing that if the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1948 had been complete, there might have been peace today in the Middle East. If the Nazi programme for the final solution of the Jewish problem had been complete, for sure there would be peace today in Palestine".
Diane,
Do you have a link or URL for the Kimmerling comment? It's on target, though it's really an ethical argument of a sort that Morris clearly thinks has now been swept aside by questions of survival.
I'm probably a lot less radical on this issue than most people on this site. I don't think that the interaction between Europeans and Arabs was destined to be as destructive as it is now. I don't think Israel had to be a failed experiment (which it's obviously becoming).
Who started it?
Ariel Sharon when he invaded Lebanon. Had the Israeli government built on Camp David pulled out of the West Bank and Gaza in 1979 or 1980, and had they pulled all support for the settlements back then, Israel might have been a viable state that eventually had a chance of some respect from its neighbors.
"And how did all this trouble start? And who started it?"
Friedman talks about "insane": insane is insisting that Jews need a country of their own where they can feel safe, then stealing that country from several million people who never did you any harm, but are quite willing to spend the next millennium killing you to get it back.
Do you have a link or URL for the Kimmerling comment
I read it hardcopy in the Guardian newspaper. I'll see if it's online.
The Kimmerling quote is at
http://tinyurl.com/2hyzz
Looks like Wesley Clark is having the last laugh on a certain population of Heathers:
He said on Bill Maher's show this weekend that he was going to put the infamous sweater on eBay. I thought he was kidding.
Professor Adi Ophir wrote a
rebuttal to Benny Morris' defense of ethnic cleansing. Ha'Aretz wouldn't publish it because it crticises Ha'Aretz, but Gush Shalom is circulating it by email.
And Juan Cole has a link to an interesting discussion on Morris too.
And that really is the last thing I am going to post Benny "ethnic cleansing - it's a good thing" Morris.
Nice blog Diane. And jeez, that picture you've posted under the heading "Ugly Americans" really is . . . ugly 
Nice blog Diane. And jeez, that picture you've posted under the heading "Ugly Americans" really is . . . ugly
Thanks for the kind words about the blog.
And I know what you mean about the photo. I tried to think up an amusing caption, but I couldn't think of a single funny thing to say about it. Sad....
Excellent blog, Diane.
Sounds like Tom Friedman is an anti-semite.
I'd like to comment the post named good for the goose and the other comments that I recently read. Some of the posts realy offended me and my nation and other people like me that are proud to be brazilian.First of all I'd like to ask you americans (those who offended the brazilian people)why do you discriminate our people and other latin americans?Is your country perfect?Are you perfect?
I think I have the answers for these questions.You discriminate brazilians ans latin americans because you are mediocre and have to protect yourselves in a low and unfair way.Your country is not perfect, look at the frauds and treasons every day in the news, look at your "president"(a sily, drunk daddy's baby).And the part of your people that voted and "elect" that bastard are responsable for all the shit in the world today.
I apologize for all the true americans(those who didn't voted for Bush)
E que todos os outros vão para a puta que o pariu !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd like to comment the post named good for the goose and the other comments that I recently read. Some of the posts realy offended me and my nation and other people like me that are proud to be brazilian.First of all I'd like to ask you americans (those who offended the brazilian people)why do you discriminate our people and other latin americans?Is your country perfect?Are you perfect?
I think I have the answers for these questions.You discriminate brazilians ans latin americans because you are mediocre and have to protect yourselves in a low and unfair way.Your country is not perfect, look at the frauds and treasons every day in the news, look at your "president"(a sily, drunk daddy's baby).And the part of your people that voted and "elect" that bastard are responsable for all the shit in the world today.
I apologize for all the true americans(those who didn't voted for Bush)
E que todos os outros vão para a puta que o pariu !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Olá, nojentos, como estão se sentindo?
<a href="URL">TEXT</a> Replace URL with the URL of the page you want to link, and TEXT with the text you want to use for the hyperlink. For example, <a href="http://atrios.blogspot.com">Atrios' home page</a>
first
Geez, I'd better get a lottery ticket. That never happens. First post.
I didn't read the article. What did the ass monkey do now?
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