I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
do what now?
Shorter Tom Friedman: Can you fucking believe the New York Times pays me to explain the obvious to you?
Shorter Tom Friedman:
Davos makes everyone nutso.
What the hell?
America is great because it helped Mexico, but the 15 nation EU is bad because it's only bringing in 10 new very poor Eastern European nations and not supporting all of North Africa and the entire Middle East too?
My double standards alarm just exploded.
Shorter Thomas Friedman: I suck.
Wouldn't the shorter Tommy be:
If Arabs had pro-Israel democracies then Timothy McVeigh wouldn't have been a Muslim.
Didn't he used to be smart?
OT:
Bush deficit plan seen having murky math
Analysts say budget plan stresses ideology over math
Intersting, Europe hasn't taken care of their own backyard. Germany's racial problems have roots in their "guest worker" programs from years ago. What is this administration's answer?
Friedman is living proof that some people have a finite amount of talent.
Shorter complete works of Tom Friedman: "Everything shitty that happens is really good, because I say so!"
Apply this to free trade, globalization, the Iraq War, genocide, etc, etc.
Is anyone here unemployed by chance?
Well its better than Dowd's column which is is completely unintelligible. But none of us really expect much out of these guys. But I expect more out of promising young writers like "http://www.matthewyglesias.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-
tb.cgi/2394
">Matt Yglesias
LOU DOBBS TONIGHT QUICKVOTE
Do you vote?
Yes
No
Dobbs ask, "Do you vote?" Thought that was funny.
5% said they don't vote after just voting.
Maybe you should mind your own business, Gordon.
Generic Tom Friedman:
If we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs, if we had some eggs.
So all the children of the 'gastarbeiters' in Germany are un-willing to fill the jobs of their parents, 'that others are un-willing to fill,' demand the same rights as they were taught in school, now feel like second class citizens. It's the same in France. Those who are second generation are not treated like part of the the citizenery. They look different, sound different, worship different.
It's like a hundred years ago in the US of A. Think Italian or Irish. Before we were all hyphenate-americans.
Gordon is a troll. Please ignore him.
Friedman's absolutely right about the Europeans messing up on their muslim minorities due to ingrained xenophobia, which I observed first hand last time I was in France. But his claims of success in Mexico seem very premature. NAFTA helped for a while, but Mexican jobs are now beeing offshored to China, and that country's educational system is still a train wreck that is leaving them very, very uncompetitive.
No, it's a fair question. I posted and you attacked. Wouldn't that make you a troll Old Hat?
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
I'm not unemployed. Yet.
John Kerry attempts smile. Fails.
I always hear people complaining about all the lost jobs, yet I rarely ever meet anyone that's unemployed.
I always hear people complaining about all the lost jobs, yet I rarely ever meet anyone--
ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Tom Friedman has really nothing left to say.
Of the billions of people on the plant, the motherfucker focuses on the Middle East and thinks the entire world revolves around it. That region does not need our help. What it needs is exactly the opposite. America has fucked around with the region for the last 100 years and see what we got. the Iraq invasions is the latest misstep which will take the region back another 50 years. Why does he not learn that by interfering with the Middle East, we have caused more harm than good?
The stupid asshole that he is, wants us to get more involved by sending more guns to prop up our friends like Mubarak and Chalabi and Sharon. When will the stupid mindfuck ever learn? I used to think he had some brains. But he is just a whore and a doormat for the Bushies. At least it pays his bills...
Tom Friedman is a scourge to Western civilization. His antiquated notion for bringing culture to the heathen is so bereft of logic that one wonders why the Times still puts him on twice a week. Under all his language is an underlying superiority that he feels about American power and now he claims to want to use our guns to reform the Middle East. The fool...... doesn't he realize that it is our guns that have created the mess in the first place.
Shorter Tom Friedman: I am a fancy squirrel, yes I am yes I am.
Well, fuck, it makes as much sense as what he actually wrote.
A.
OT, but I see Marshall's acting as the politeness police for Kerry now.
This guy gets to be more of a whore with every post...
... the most basic thing that gives people dignity and hope: A job.
Funny, after a day at work I feel a stinging lack of dignity and am starved for hope.
I live in Mexico.
Friedman cites Zedillo, give me a break!!
and it is common knowledge that Salinas stole the 88 election from Cardenas, so mexicans were well prepared to change course.
also, i will be looking up that 5% growth. One fact you hear repeated often here is that the 20 years before mexico opened up its economy (approx.1980) growth was significantly higher than the 20 year after (not that i am recommending a return to those times, rather a serious evaluation of 10 yrs of nafta..I just started a paper on that actually)
Frankly Friedman has not a clue about what he is saying regarding mexico. but that is very typical of his work; claiming nafta has been successful in mexico because a corrupt ex-president told him so (i remember one of his columns beginning "talking to government official i would say the situation in iraq......" really getting to the source, no?)
Friedman:
According to the 2003 Arab Human Development Report, between 1980 and 1999 the nine leading Arab economies registered 370 patents (in the U.S.) for new inventions. Patents are a good measure of a society's education quality, entrepreneurship, rule of law and innovation. During that same 20-year period, South Korea alone registered 16,328 patents for inventions. You don't run into a lot of South Koreans who want to be martyrs.
That's data. Quantitative information that there is something wrong if that oil-rich part of the world, and it's not because of American oppression. That one paragraph contains more intelligence that most of the lame comments to be found above in this post.
"I always hear people complaining about all the lost jobs, yet I rarely ever meet anyone that's unemployed.
Gordon the Magnificent"
Well, that does it. Since you personally know no one who's unemployed, then all this talk about millions of lost jobs is just bunk.
Thank you Gordon for tidying up that pesky problem.
Next?
Gordon--
So nice to see you back here tonite!
I teach at a technical college in Washington State, a state with some of the worst unemployment in the country. A vast majority of my adult students are people who simply could not find work, and so are back in school for technical training in the hope of re-entering the job market.
If you do not know anyone who is unemployed you are either--
A) a member of a sub-group that does not involve itself with regular jobs, i.e. wealthiest 10%, too young for the work force, or too old, or
B)Living in your mother's basement devoid of social contact and lacking acess to current unemployment numbers which are the worst in decades.
Gordon, I appreciate your attempt to involve yourself in the dialog, but please, if you are going to cast out little teasers like that, have them make a little sense.
Sorry to say this, but I think you guys are being unfair to Friedman this time.
"Well, that does it. Since you personally know no one who's unemployed, then all this talk about millions of lost jobs is just bunk."
Well, where are all these "millions" hiding?
Is anyone here currently unemployed?
Just ignore him. He was tossing out all kinds of vile homophobic shit at the regulars last night. Deprive him of the attention he obviously doesn't get in the real world and he'll go away.
Isreal,
A vast majority of your adult students are people who simply are too LAZY to find work, and so are back in school and collecting wlefare, ON MY TAX DOLLARS, for technical training in the hope of re-entering the job market.
Is anyone here currently unemployed?
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
I still have a job. My neighbor to the left lost his 5 months ago and is about to lose his house. My other neighbor 4 doors down on the right lost his job about 3 months ago. His wife still works, so they've managed to hang onto the house by running up the credit cards. For now.
There are two data points.
I could get a job anyday, anywhere in America.
If there are no jobs then why are we proposing to allow all the Mexiacans in on a work relief program?
ASSHAT/ Old Hat,
Do you ever contribute or do you just mime others? Let's hear what you have to say.
Gordon,
Please explain which welfare programs you're referring to. Perhaps my neighbors could get enroll.
Shorter Friedman: get them exposed to Britney Spears and the rat race, and they'll be too vapid and tired to care about jihad.
I concur with Honorable Mention's remarks. Leave the world alone. They don't want to be like us, they don't want to measure their lives in how many patents they've registered, or who has the coolest cell phone. Their culture is completely different, so measuring it by standards set in our culture is absurd. The Western notion that everyone is a consumer and a unit of labour is abhorrent to people who feel that their life is their own, not the property of government or corporations.
I could get a job anyday, anywhere in America.
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
If wishes were fishes, Friedman could screw the horse he rode in on.
...enroll, that is. not get enroll
Honorable Mention
"America has fucked around with the region for the last 100 years"
The US hasn't really fucked around in the ME for more than ~50 years. We tried after WWI (see Wilson's King-Crane Commission), but the Brits and French pretty much shut that down with the Mandates. While the odd American or two has dicked around for a while, the US really didn't care what happened over there; playing in Latin America was about as far as the US really got until WWII. The isolationist (except LA) sense of pre-WWII America - and the avarice of the European great empires - pretty much precluded US involvment in the ME.
In fact, outside Wilson's failed attempt to determine the popular sentiment of the ME after WWI, the first real US push at pushing the ME chess pieces around was putting the brakes on the '56 Anglo-French Suez holiday. After that, the Cold War made the ME a juict target for both sides. But the US hasn't been in the ME for a 100 years.
There are plenty of jobs, but who wants to work for minimum wages?
I could get a job anyday, anywhere in America
gordon, good for you if wallmart really wants you so badly, why don't you fuck off and do the night-shift there - i hear they pay really well and provide excellent benefits like regular drug screening for braindead overachievers like you.
I wonder if Tom Friedman has ever read "The Quiet American." He seems to think that meddling in other people's affairs with either a) bombs b) the CIA or c) huge multinational corporations will make everyone like us and thus win "The War of Ideas," as if that term isn't Orwellian enough on its face.
Oh Dear, Gordon--
I am very involved with the lives of my students, and I assure you there is very little opportunism involved in being brave or desperate enough to return to school as an adult.
Were you to hear some of the stories of these people, you would be ashamed to have made such a statement. Many are working survival jobs and going to school 5 hours a day to try to become something OTHER than a drag on your hard earned tax dollars.
Believe me Gordon, the majority of them are far more concerned with making a life for themselves, through education, than with being a continued burden on your tax funded largess.
Poor Gordon, he just doesn't know that hating and disparaging people for trying to become better tax-payers, equal with himself, is counter-productive.
I always hear people complaining about their life, yet I have never bothered to get one.
Google the state you live in snorkel. Nearly anyone qualifies for welfare or some form of govt. relief that's unemployed and under financial duress. Hell, even in Washington, as Isreal explained, either the State or the Government is paying for their education in addition to supporting them. I wish I could have been so lucky. Ten years later I'm still paying off my student loans.
"gordon, good for you if wallmart really wants you so badly, why don't you fuck off and do the night-shift there - i hear they pay really well and provide excellent benefits like regular drug screening for braindead overachievers like you."
You find it humorous to mock all the hardworking Americans that scratch a living at Walmart?
How about some of the illegal immigrants Walmart is paying sub-minumum wage?
There are plenty of jobs, but who wants to work for minimum wages?
Gordon:
Just looked at your site and found zero postings about anything newsworthy. All postings seemed to be inspired by an eighth grade girls popularity contest. Lot of dissing other bloggers and such. If you are sure of your stements that there is a vast conspiracy to falsely state that there are millions out of work, find it, post it. I've never personally seen the Great Wall, but I'm not doubting it exists. There are very few things that can actually be proven or refuted using the..."Does anyone personally know a hermaphrodite? If not, they don't exist" argument. If you are just here to make waves, fine. But if you hope to be taken seriously, you might actually use a better equation than (If no one in a group of twenty knows X, than no X exists).
I'm curious, Gordon, what do you do that is so transferable?
I live on a mountian of money, ask me anything, because I'm important and you're not.
Boggs,
I could care less what your opinion of my blog is. It's only a week old and it serves it's purpose.
What do you mean by transferable cosmic?
Gordon,
I ask just so we can continue this discussion of why some people, say miners who are married with mortgages and kids in school, may not have as easy a time up and moving as you or I. Do you want to talk about this honestly or not?
Phalamir,
What do you call the US-led coup to ovethrow the democratically elected leader of Iran, Mohammed Mossadegh, to install the pro US Shah? What do you call selling weapons to both Iraq and Iran during those two countries' brutal war in the 80s?
Gordon,
I said no such thing. You did.
Scroll up and admit your error, or be exposed as a liar. Which is it Gordon?
Most of my students are there on loans and hard work, same as you. Same as me.
Demonize all you want, disparage and denigrate, it does not make you larger.
couldn't care less
gordon,
i pity the poor people who have to subjugate themselves to the working conditions at wallmart, gordon, just as I pity you your need to come here and dish up your distorted and pathetic attempt at dismissing the millions who have lost their job over the past three years with a frat boy's smirk. What do you think - the bush administration is making up these numbers to show us how amazing they are at running things?!? Hello? just because there are no unemployed people living near the rock you're currently hiding under doesn't mean they don't exist. but once you get the courage to venture out into the real world, you might actually meet some of them...
You're stupid because you're poor. Neener, neener, neener. Even a monkey can get a job as president, why aren't you working?
Does the Brooklyn Bridge exist? Anybody? And if so, will someone sell it to Gordon, please?
A.
I live in a state that has seen the loss of thousands of decent, if not great, jobs disappear. To diss these adults who are trying to adapt to a changing economy without working the night shift at 7/11 seems callous.
That's all.
Slightly OT: why is the NYT still paying Dowd? She *so* deserves to be one of the recently unemployed... this has to be one of her worst columns ever.
Gordon: My point was that you seem to have plenty of time to come here and berate others with little in the way of back-up. Maybe you could use that time to do some research and be able to finally pin our asses to the wall in a much more academic manner than the unsubstantiated claim "...a vast majority of your students are simply too lazy to find work."
Gordon
funny you don't sound educated.
Cosmic,
All I know, is if I lost my job, I'd find another. I'd do whatever it takes to keep food on the table and a roof over my head. I wouldn't hold myself as too lofty too work at 7/11 or Walmarts. Christ, I'd work at Mcdonalds if I had to.
I'D PICK FRUIT.
I'd work and not just collect welfare and subsist on federal and state programs while throwing my nose at low paying jobs.
Was that a troll splash? It failed.
From Gordon the M.'s blog. Gordon commenting on visiting Atrios and other blogs:
"Have you ever been to the zoo and seen monkeys hurling their own feces at one another? Every time I visit the respective threads, that vision rears itself."
Why do you keep coming back, Gordie?
What I say goes, because I'm richer than you.
Does anybody remember when Reagan proved that the economy was good by holding up a copy of the New York Times classified ads and showing that there were ten or 15 pages of jobs avaailable.
Check out this Sunday's New York Times. By Reagan's standards, we mustn't be doing very well since there are only two or three pages.
In addition Gordon, it seems you fail to answer my request to find a better equation than the one you use to "prove" that there aren't millions of unemployed, i.e. if no one in twenty knows X, than no X exist. I don't know a single Republican that loves their kids, so all that talk of family values is just crap?
Which welfare programs are people taking advantage of? Really. I'm curious. Please let me know what they are. Do you have any idea?
I wouldn't hold myself as too lofty too work at 7/11 or Walmarts. Christ, I'd work at Mcdonalds if I had to.
I'D PICK FRUIT.
I'd work and not just collect welfare and subsist on federal and state programs while throwing my nose at low paying jobs.
LIAR!
Well, Gordon, what is it? I'm still waiting.
Error, and apology, or admission of lie?
hmmm?
thingwarbler,
I read Dowd's piece. She's really off her feed. Worst I've read in a long time.
I'm not sure who the ANON that posted this is -
"i pity the poor people who have to subjugate themselves to the working conditions at wallmart, gordon"
I am willing to bet that none of the HARD working people at Walmarts neither need nor CARE for your pity Anon. They've got jobs, they work, they make a living. Get off your high horse.
"LIAR!"
Not quite, I've worked all those jobs with exception to Wally World.
Gordon,
I have a request:
Please toss my salad.
still waiting. which welfare programs?
Boggs,
Weren't you just scalding me for my uniformed blanket statements? Then you post this?
"I don't know a single Republican that loves their kids, so all that talk of family values is just crap?"
Did you ride the shortbus to school? Do you really belive that? I'm certain that all parents, with rare exceptions, love their children - regardless of their political alignment.
Gordon,
I've swept floors. I've worked short order. I've worked construction. But that's irrelevant to what I'm asking.
What do you do that's so transferable? Do you have other responsibilities like a kid, wife, mortgage? Elderly parents who need care?
All this stuff happens, Gordon, and you're depending on a decent job to pay the doctor bills and suddenly, bammo, you're laid off. What do you do? Go to work at 7/11, for minimum wage and work one of the most dangerous shifts of the day? Oh, I guess the kidscan go to school on Social Security of some crackhead wastes you for a Slurpee. Oh, wait, I forgot, Social Security is a government handout. huh?
All I'm saying, Gordo, is that life is a hell of a lot more complicated than you seem to understand. To dismiss these people and their problems so lightly tells me volumes about your age and station in life.
Do your homework, then comeback snorkel.
Snorkel: Don't you see? Under the Gordon the Mag's rule for proof, all he needs to know is that he knows someone who knows that all these unemployed people are getting welfare directly from his pocket.
Actually, I'm fully aware of what kinds of government aid - and more importantly who qualifies for it - are out there. You obviously or not, as you can't come up with a single example.
"What do you do? Go to work at 7/11, for minimum wage and work one of the most dangerous shifts of the day?"
Yes, that's exactly what I'd do. I'd find another job. I'd do what I had to provide.
What other option is there?
Work is for suckers.
gordon,
you have a thing with that high horse, don't you? From your so-called blog: The Soak Zone's "QUOTE OF THE WEEK" "Fuck you and your fucking high horse, Gordon."
I'll second that opinion.
Judging by what I read (try it one day, gordon, you learn all sorts of interesting shit), people who work at Wallmart don't generally think it's the greatest place to work - and anyone who'd have to take a shitty %5.15 an hour job there b/c it's the only gig inb town after they lost their old job would have every reason to resent it.
I'm not dissing them - i'm dissing the conditions under which they're being forced to work because our current political climate favors wallmarts union-busting race-to-the-bttom tactics over decent jobs for decent people.
Gordon, you obviously don't understand sarcasm. It was my attemp to use your proof to substantiate a claim that I know is in now way accurate. However, according to your rule, it would be. For being so rich, you sure aren't very sharp.
"Actually, I'm fully aware of all kinds of government aid."
I'm sure you have lots of first hand experience. I'm not surprised.
Regarding that Kerry attempt at a smile that is posted earlier in this thread, I clicked it on and I was immediately reminded of Stan Laurel.
Then it occurred to me that Kerry's smile was probably the result of his contemplating what a night of passion with Ta-RAY-Suh is gonna be like after he gets the chance to pop his Viagra.
Didn't the guy have prostate surgery? A friend of mine who is into "chakras" told me that the fact that Cheney needs a pacemaker is indicative of the fact that his "heart chakra" (as in the emotional center of his soul) is blocked and dysfuntional.
Well, I can certainly attest to the fact that Cheney's policies show that he has no human heart, and that he really has the heart of a machine.
Well, the fact that Kerry had to have prostate surgery might mean that his "potency chakra" has some serious problems.
I mean, his voting record in Congress as of late would certainly bear this out.
Who said I was rich Boggs? You seem to make assumptions as well don't you?
Actually, no, I don't believe I've ever received anything one would describe as "welfare." But, I'm educated so I know. You obviously aren't. You recommended google - let me recommend it back. Perhaps you could come up with something. Anything. One program, one state, one set of qualifications in terms of income and asssets.
I liked those checks from the government, but I didn't like showing up. Flying planes is hard.
Gordon,
Another option is to go back to school and get new skills. But how do you pay the mortgage and child care while you do that. You need help. That's all these people want.
Think of working in the mines, the factory or the mill most of your life. It's a decent living, but then you're on your ass. You can't pay the bills, which don't stop, working minimum wage, and you have no health benefits.
What's your solution? Remember, you can't sell the house because the entire town is laid off. What do you do?
Ask for help?
"gordon,
you have a thing with that high horse, don't you? From your so-called blog: The Soak Zone's "QUOTE OF THE WEEK" "Fuck you and your fucking high horse, Gordon."
I'll second that opinion.
Judging by what I read (try it one day, gordon, you learn all sorts of interesting shit), people who work at Wallmart don't generally think it's the greatest place to work - and anyone who'd have to take a shitty %5.15 an hour job there b/c it's the only gig inb town after they lost their old job would have every reason to resent it.
I'm not dissing them - i'm dissing the conditions under which they're being forced to work because our current political climate favors wallmarts union-busting race-to-the-bttom tactics over decent jobs for decent people.
gordon the increasingly dumb | Email | Homepage | 01.25.04 - 12:50 am | # "
If I posted spew as senseless as this I'd post ANON too.
The Troll Alert level has just gone ORANGE. In the interest of preserving their own sanity, Eschatonians are strongly encouraged to stop feeding the lying, idiotic douchebag.
You wonder why the times pays any of these people -- they must be friends or relative or worse.
Gordon,
Seriously, how old are you and what do you do for a living?
I ask for a reason.
it's way over gordon's bedtime, anyway.
How old are you Cosmic? What do you do for a living?
I'm 53 and I'm a writer. You?
Kenny Boy needs my help. I think I'll do some more corporate welfare.
Agreed. caught him in a lie, he failed to respond, no sense now in bothering with him or anything he says. No integrity=no influence or credibility.
satiRic air tanK,
Honorable said 100 years
I said "The US hasn't really fucked around in the ME for more than ~50 years"
Mossadegh got the axe in 1953. Now, I admit that that was 51 years ago which is more than 50, but I think that 1 year is within the MOE of "~" (I meant to imply post-WWII; its sometimes hard to remember that WII will be over for 60 years next August) . And the 80s definitely falls within the ~50 year window.
BTW Mossadegh was the PM, but the Shah was the ruler of Iran and technically outranked Mossadegh. It's not like the Shah just appeared out of thin air in 1953 (okay, technically he appeared out of Italy since he went there in '51 when Ajax version 1.0 fell apart; but he was in Iran as Shah before that).
Hi, I'm "Flash" Gordon, and it's time to take my Haldol.
Gordon: I apologize for the rich quote, someone posted as you earlier in the thread and the comment sounded very much like the kind of thing you would say. However, unlike you, I am willing to admit that I was mistaken and for that, I apologize. Could you please answer the charge about the faulty logic you are using to make your claims: If no one in twenty knows X, than no X exists. This was the proof I was using in my hypothetical "No Republican I know loves their kids...you remember, the one in which you couldn't see the sarcasm?
38. Merchant Marine.
Gordon,
I want you to understand, I come from a mining background, was an enlisted man in Vietnam, worked on the railroad, in restaurants, literlally swept floors, poured concrete, built houses and worked briefly in a factory.
That's fine Boggs. Old Hat does that on every post. Then he calls me a troll. Got to love his sense of humor.
OK, as a merchant marine, you have a good, but hard job. Congratulations. But what would happen if you lost it? Do you have a wife or kid?
In order to shorten this conversation, let me just explain that I gave up a great career in advertising because my mother-in-law needed us to be here. I had to find something else I could do. Fortunately, I can write, and I've worked hard to make a living in a tough fucking business, but not everyone can do that. And it's hard. And I don't mind giving people a hand up when they need it. Do you?
All I'm saying is shit happens and you find yourself in a position you sure didn't plan for. And I think I am my brother's keeper. How about you?
I stood the watch as well - that's how I paid my way through college. Well, that and loans.
I'll be the first to adnit I'm callous. I just find it hard to understand why I could scratch a good living after leaving high school with nothing but the clothes on my back so to speak. No silver spoon here.
If I were to water my statments down a bit, I'd say it disturbs me that Americans seem to hold themselves above working lower echelon jobs. That's all.
It boggles the mind to think of how infinitely more possible it is for a bunch of monkeys randomly typing to produce this column than a Shakespeare play.
I just finished reading it, and the only thing I can remember about it is that at least it isn't insane.
"That's data. Quantitative information that there is something wrong if that oil-rich part of the world, and it's not because of American oppression."
No? Factor the support of Saddam, the destruction of Iraq, both an American project now for 30 years, the coup for the Shah of Iran (boy, that worked out well), the installation of the Taliban (OK, that's SW Asia, but barely), the support for Saud princes (with their fine human rights record), the toleration of Israeli oppression, and the general support given to oppression of women throughout the ME (including now in Iraq, where women are under shariah for the first time in 20 years).
Is the US wholly at fault? Of course not. In fact, is America at fault? Of course not---it's the bastards, these same bastards in most cases, that have done this damage to the ME; a handful of subversion artists.
Expect no patents in the US in a few years, except those for killing children more efficiently, and that epitome of all patent projects:
BUILDING A BETTER SET OF HANDCUFFS.
Hi Gordon! I want 87 billion dollars for iWaq. Will you cut me a check?
(87 billion dollars will buy enough gold to cover every interstate highway in the US, just in case you wanted to know how much that is)
Gordo,
Yeah, it pisses me off, too. But most people aren't like that. Do you think they enjoy taking that check any more than you like paying it? And rally, we're talking a few cents here, Gordon. You want to get angry, ficus your attention on people who are ripping you off in a major way, like the corporations who steal your pension and investment firms who are no more than Ponzi schemes. Those are the gastards who deserve your wrath, not the little guy going to adult classes.
Focus, Gordon, focus, or they'll have us all by the short and curlies.
Nader on Fox--he just said he's exploring a run in '04. He's checking his finances and testing the waters. '00 all over AGAIN!!
Sorry, it's late and I've lost the ability to type properly.
The three vodka tonics don't have anything to do with that, I'm sure.
Not to feed Gordo the Homophobe, but there are a lot of reserve military getting maimed in Iraq who used to have jobs, before Bx decided they didn't have to honor the restrictions on reserve deployments.
Because, donchaknow, it was such an IMPERATIVE invasion.
Oops, that's IMPERIAL, not imperative. Not imperative at all. WAY imperial.
Oh, and KISS MY ASS, YOU BIGOT.
=
shit, can you imagine how ugle kerry would be if he didn't have that hair?!?
Nader on Fox--he just said he's exploring a run in '04. He's checking his finances and testing the waters. '00 all over AGAIN!!
nader on fox... that says it all, really. the guy must be getting desperate for attention from, well, anybody. his supporters have long since left him, so it's just the freeper hacks left.
and to think I actually supported his run in '00...
Those people volunteered to join the Reserves Paul. They took an Oath. Please don't belittle their sacrifices for us based on your political agenda?
BTW - where'd the Bigot slander come from?
Please don't belittle their sacrifices for us based on your political agenda?
Why hold Paul to a higher standard than Georgie?
I've never heard George Bush belittle the troops. You can dislike the guy all you want, but he's probably the most coveted CINC since the first George.
Presidents and CINCs are like comparing apples and oranges.
I saw that segment with Nader on Fox. The Judge took him to school. I don't mind Ralph Nader. He's done some great things to protect people, and he's done good things in getting his views out.
Ralph, I understand your opinion in 2000, they did seem like they were both trying to pretend to be each other. But you've seen 4 years of Bush as well as I have. You know full well how many lives it'll cost if he wins again. This is your best chance ever to get more support for your ideas.
You had to hate the IRaq war as much as I did. Put your damn money where your mouth is. You supported Kucinich, you said, but he's not going to win. There are 2 anti-war candidates out there from the start: Clark and Dean. You know full well your support could help make sure the Democrats run a candidate who will listen to you. Take advantage of it! Put the "independent" label behind you, if just for a time, and do the right thing, just once, please Ralph!
(Visit my web page please)
gordon, are they making sacrifices or being sacrificed? as it turns out the invasion that is getting them killed really was a glorified scam, whose political agenda should we be questioning here?
Nader on Fox--he just said he's exploring a run in '04. He's checking his finances and testing the waters. '00 all over AGAIN!!
Gordon,
Do you know how this administration's treated veterans? Did you know they tried to cut hazardous duty pay? Did you know they've cut funding for their kids' schools? Do you know what kind of hardships the families of the Guard and Reserve are under, and what their extended deployment is doing to local police departments and fire department, our first responders in the event of a terrorist attack? Amd when, except for the time he had to have his knee looked at, has Bush made that short trip up to Walter Reed to visit the wounded?
Gordon, I'll accept that you care about the troops. But is you do, you've got to be pissed at this administration.
George doesn't belittle the troops openly, he's as supportive of them as they come, openly. Then he takes away their veterans health benefits, allows the pentagon to cut their hazard pay, and is too busy attending fund-raisers to drop by a single funeral of one of our 511 brave soldiers he sent into combat because it might look bad politically.
He doesn't belittle the troops openly, and anyone, ANYWHERE who insults the work of the American Serviceman will earn my wrath. But in Mr. Bush's case, his actions speak just as loudly as words ever could.
(visit my web page please)
Also, did you know that the first George Bush referred to us, you and me and our families, as OFUs?
That stands for One Fodder Unit.
These people don't deserve your loyalty, Gordon.
Gordon, if a minimum wage job pays less than you'd get on welfare, and your kids need the money, wouldn't you stay on welfare rather than take a low-paying job?
That's the catch-22 we have going on in this country. Work for less money than you'd get taking government help, and lose your house and your family. Take help, and get derided for taking "handouts" and get told to "get a job," but once you do, you can't get the welfare anymore and you're making less money.
It's a mess, that's the whole point.
Anyway, back on topic, Friedman's a tool.
A.
Do you know what kind of hardships the families of the Guard and Reserve are under,
Those lazy wives and kids should get Walmart jobs and stop complaining.
oops... for a moment I thought I was someone else. excuse me.
I've never heard George Bush belittle the troops.
Ah, but you had said before: "Please don't belittle their sacrifices for us based on your political agenda?"
He made a reference in his SOTU to the American lives he's wasted with his adventure. But he isn't allowing the media to show the honored dead returning home. He's busily trimming benefits to veterans and education spending on military bases.
Similar to the way he exploits the victims of 9/11 for his political agenda, he tried to use the dead and wounded of Iraq to make the botched war look like some sort of noble exercise.
So: why hold Paul to a higher standard than Georgie?
Cosmos,
Gotta run. Nice talking to you about the employment issue.
Gordon's one of those little white heterosexual wingers who come online, and very soon, consider themselves absolutely incredibly brilliant.
ssshhh, gordon is pretending to be sleeping. i do that too, sometimes, when things don't go my way. no doubt he'll wake up tomorrow and imagine he dreamt the whole thing - and in his dreams, he was right all along.
"Cosmos,
Gotta run. Nice talking to you about the employment issue."
Gordon the Magnificent
And where on earth has anyone got to run to at 1:30 in the morning?
Run off to sleep?
Nite, Gordon.
Sweet dreams.
thingwarbler,
Let's hope he looks up all the things we told him, finds they're true, and realizes he's been used by a bunch of cynical bastards.
I'm an optimist at heart.
If this is a war of ideas, then why is Bush in charge?
The train of thought has left the station:
Islam is an angry religion.
Terrorists are Islamitics.
Dean is angry.
Dean is terrorist.
Bush is terrified of Dean.
Re Friedman article:
I was at Google's headquarters in Silicon Valley a few days ago, and they have this really amazing electronic global map that shows, with lights, how many people are using Google to search for knowledge
That gave me the creeps. What else do they know about us and our search habits. And when Friedman says "search for knowledge", does he mean the word "knowledge" or what? How does he know they're not searching for porn?
I'm angry.
Does that make me a terrorist?
Will my wife object to the 72 virgins?
Oh, sweet Jesus, just the thought of 72 virgins makes me so tired and I can hardly stand.
And the 4 vodka tonics have nothing to do with it.
Gordon, wait up! Can I get a ride with you, man?
cosmic,
there was a similar troll debate the other night here, where some guy was pushing us on the value of our ditto-heading vs. taking the battle to the freepers and "winning their hearts and minds".
I can't figure someone like gordon out - I mean, what would compel him to spend a couple of hours here seeing his stupid arguments beaten up? Did he want to convince us? Test the waters? Is he secretly wanting to "convert" but just unable to come out and say it? A closet liberal?
Nader on Fox--he just said he's exploring a run in '04. He's checking his finances and testing the waters. '00 all over AGAIN!!
He's refused to run for the Green Party nomination, so if he runs, he'll need to get ballot access as an Independent in all 50 states. That's a real uphill battle, especially with most of his most devoted supporters either running back to the Dems or stickin' with the Greens.
Judging from Gordon's website and his "post" on the latest thread at Billmon's site, I'd say Gordon is a professional troll. Cosmic grappler may have managed to catch him at a weak moment and engage him a bit, but I think the guy's not worth our time.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
If it's Mrs. Gordon's kid, throw it back.
Oh, I lost a leg at Shiloh against the Rebs, so I know something about making shit up!
I can't figure someone like gordon out - I mean, what would compel him to spend a couple of hours here seeing his stupid arguments beaten up? Did he want to convince us? Test the waters? Is he secretly wanting to "convert" but just unable to come out and say it? A closet liberal?
Maybe it's some kind of political S/M or B/D thing, and Gordon's just a bottom...
Why have many posters wasted valuable time responding to morons who post things such as:
"I live on a mountian of money, ask me anything, because I'm important and you're not."
Gordon the Magnificent
I have better things to do with my time than read crap like that and the 20 other one-line incendiary bullshit posts by this "individual" . . . or shitty AI program scripted by some right wing hack.
Get a clue and do not feed the trolls.
I thought he was siding with Kucinich?
Actually, tnd, that post wasn't Gordon's; it was someone mocking him (rightfully so I might add). I think the baiting tone he took in the beginning got a few people talking to him. Cosmic grappler actually got through to him for a while. Then Gordon realized "Hey I'm having a conversation like a real person, instead of being a smart-aleck asshole", got scared of the possibility of rational dialogue, and ran away.
And if the people don't want a liberal democracy, by God, we'll force them to have it.
>I thought he was siding with Kucinich?
slippage -- Nader I mean
In re the posting ping-pong with Gordon: Sorry to be so late in noticing the thread, but I was at one of my two very low paying jobs. The original dare about working at Wal-Mart wasn't a slam of Wal-Mart employees but rather of the poor pay of Wal-Mart employees and so of Wal-Mart's policies, and in addition a slam of Gordon's faith in a minimum-wage to support anyone. My situation is that I have two part-time jobs, a fast-food gig that pays around $6.00/hr (after being there for a few years) for approx. 35 hrs/wk (management wouldn't want to make it 40 and end up offering overtime pay or benefits) and an on-campus position that pays minimum wage for 15 hrs/wk. My 50 hrs of labor per week (which must be fit around my class schedule--yep, I'm a middle-aged college student) earns me no health insurance, no retirement plan, no chance to save and no hope of improvment until I have a degree in my hand and jump into the business world (if a wave of "rightsizing" doesn't hit). But I love hearing how good things are right now and that they are only getting better. Thanks, I just needed to be reminded of that.
Air Tank:
Nice quote. Next I expect him to say "You can use MapQuest to search for Land for Peace".
I think he got the job at the New York Times bacause The Onion wouldn't hire him.
It's like watching some warped version of Entertainment Tonight with Davos the Acadamy Awards for people with good complexes.
"The air is filled with electricity as WiFi transmits knowledge from superbrain to superbrain! Here comes Bill and Melinda Gates down the green carpet. Bill, Melinda you look fantastic! Bill, you are up for Best Security Software and for Lifetime Achievement Award for Open Standards!"
"Well, I think it is important for the world that I get my way, and that is all that matters to me."
No, sadly, Gordon is real.
I grew up in small town America. Gordon is the corner grocer, the barber, the mill-worker, who hasn't quite lost his job yet, but for most of his existance has lived in that quiet desperation that never really allows him to know his place in the world, except as defined in relation to the frame given to him by the merciless demagoges who want his Big Mac dollar, his Budwiser dreams and his easily manipulated vote. He knows what he is told. His humor is that of belittlement, but he is above all things, sincere. He sincerely believes that darker, later comers have stolen his rightful place. He truley believes that his leaders have his best interests at heart. He believes also in many of the same things that you or I believe--- in human dignity, in freedom, in the greatness of America, of God's ordered world. But his belief has been abused, his decency has been co-opted, and because it has been done by those whom he must trust, he is angry, but because it has been done by those he trusts, his anger has been re-directed at targets chosen by his manipulators. He may learn from coming here, but I can't hold out much hope. He is not all of America, but he is a very real part of who we are.
>No, sadly, Gordon is real.
Nah, he just likes to get things stirred up.
OT: Opportunity has landed on Mars.
Does that make Mars the land of opportunity? Will there be Walmart jobs there? 
OT: Opportunity has landed on Mars.
Yet more OT: Since they involve rockets, do the Mars landers constitute "weapons of mass destruction program related activities"? If so, do we need to invade NASA mission control (and Mars)?
Any of you guys read Chomsky's take on Friedman? Basically, he says the only way someone gets a job with the NYT is if they meet the criteria, meaning they've drank the kool-aid and spout party line. Friedman's bought and paid for and he's gotta back big business.
The GOP loves Gordon. If not for the Gordons in this country, Republican politicians would be working at WalMart. Or, in Rick Santorum's case, selling his ass on the corner for five bucks a trick.
This article about a guy who ate at MacDonald's for 30 days and documented his declining health for Sundance documentary is pretty interesting.
Well said, IsraelHand, and more gently than I'd have put it.
A.
Keep the faith, Nittany.
I would just like to thank all you people for helping a 12 year old like Gordon get the attention that he is so desperately lacking from his parents. Why I remember, back in the day, when this thread use to be about Tom Friedman's latest column. It's nice to know that as long as there is Eschaton, freeper children will always have a home.
Sorry I'm late to the party. Please ignore Gordon in the future. He's a professional troll with an IQ of about 90. Maybe. His mission in life is to stir things up and annoy people. Check out his link and you'll see how totally sophmoric he is.
I don't believe for a second that he's 38 and a merchant marine.
Nittany, hang in there, things should improve when we kick shrubbie to the curb.
Friedman is just deluded. I agree that hopelessness and unemployment drives the rage of young muslim men. Friedman fails to mention that we've propped up some of the regimes that have perpetuated the status quo there.
dale: One of my friends is a criminal prosecutor, and he told me that the forensic pathologist who examines corpses told him he can tell who ate at MacDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken regularly, by their liver and a kind of "scum" that builds up in their bloodstream. With guilt & shame I admit I still eat there once in six weeks or 2 months or so. Sometimes the lure of convenient, cheap and fast gets the better of me.
Another Bruce. Just so. I figure he's all of maybe 15.
He really didn't have to go anywhere. It was his mom yelling at him to get off the computer and go to sleep.
"No, sadly, Gordon is real"
Yes, some people are like Gordon. However, in this case, Gordon is a MASSIVE TROLL. Stop feeding him please.
satiRic, that's disgusting. I'll admit I eat fast food way too often, mostly from convenience. I can't imagine only eating at McDonalds though. I think I'd kill myself before the month was up.
Let's take up a collection for Gordon so he can get the medication he needs and help him pay off his student loans as he sits atop his mountain of money with welfare cheaters' hands in his pockets.
Even a tiny, sad, limp mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Yeah, that guy was nuts to risk his health like that. I wonder if all the damage can really be reversed from his experiment.
dale, that article about the guy making "Super Size Me" was really gross. I like the moral of the story, but I really don't want to see the movie.
I can't remember the last time I ate at McDonalds. Twenty years ago?
Hey bad jim, you're a stronger man than I am. I wish I could say it had been 20 years. I think my cat's diet is healthier than mine. I don't want to see the movie either. It makes me queasy just thinking about it.
Why won't anybody play with me?
four legs, I think I owe you a thanks for your kind comment last night on Calpundit. At least I think it was a kind comment 
At one point "godless capitalist" wrote that if Costco et al were such good employers, why did so many people work at Walmart instead?
I hope to god that I never write anything as clueless as that.
Trolls at least make commenting more like a sport. That's not necessarily a good thing; although troll-fighting can be fun, it makes for boring reading afterwards.
As for eating, I can be smug about living in Southern California, where there seems to be a wider variety of food choices than one might find in the Midwest, say. (My information is second hand, from former co-workers who have moved back to the heartland.)
It's a lot easier to avoid hamburgers when you have a wide assortment of Mexican joints to choose from, not to mention Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Indian and what have you.
You're welcome for the comment. I was too tired to stay up and play with godless. He's just mindless. I especially like his arguments about health insurance. I don't think he understands that people die every year from lack of basic care. In the end it costs everyone more money, but he seems immune to reason. I suspect he's one of these kids who has never known hardship and can't imagine a life where your only option is a job at Walmart or McDonalds. I see lots of them here at the college I work at. They drive $40K cars to school and complain about foreigners and welfare cheats. I'm starting to think every kid should spend a gap year before college doing community service seeing how the other part of the world lives.
Anyway, I popped over to give a bit of moral support, if not any intellectual support. I'm getting bored with trolls. Especially the stupid ones.
You're lucky about the food. Cali is so health obsessed there's endless places to go. If I don't get up early enough to make a lunch (which isn't often), I'm reduced to the area restaurants. Most of which are crap.
California isn't just health-obsessed. As a voracious meat-eater I tend to avoid the vegetarian offerings. We're multi-cultural, awash in immigrants serving up regional comfort foods. Fast Food Nation and the BSE scare are finally inducing me to cut back on beef, so I go to the Mexican joints for variations on pork, and there's a Mongolian barbecue and gyros joints when I feel like lamb.
If there's a point to be made here, it's that it's pointless to generalize about California. This is where McDonald's originated, after all. I started eating there in 1961. "That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Err, right.
Hey everybody, it's my personal contribution to the Dean remix craze!
Orbital - Satan
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg...q/
deansatan.mp3
Re: Food in SoCal. I hope you SoCalis shop at Trader Joe's (especially with this obscene management lockout going on with the chain supermarkets). The food at Trader Joe's is of high-quality and it's cheap, cheap, cheap because they aren't paying their CEOs $5 million dollars a year. Lots of good organic stuff, fresh bread that isn't stuffed with preservatives and good meat and fish. Plus they pay their workers (who are plesant and helpful) good salaries with benefits. Check out Trader Joe's, I love shopping there. It's win/win.
Or shop at Costco. They pay their workers well and they're not Alabama racists like the management at Wal-Mart.
And if you eat fast food, go to In and Out Burger. They pay their workers surprisingly well (wages start at $9/hr) and the burgers are the best in the world. Just goes to show you people can run profitable businesses deliverying a high-quality product without screwing the people that work for them. Moral capitalism all the way, the Ben and Jerry's model.
Gordon was just trolling for personal info so he could later come up with such witty remarks like "sounds like (insert poster here) is still unemployed and drinking way too much".
He isn't about to tell you anything truthful about himself. The fact that he's a troll tell's you all you really need to know. He's not a very nice person who's only pleasure is trying tear people down to make himself feel better. He has to do it online because every time he leaves his house to try to socialize, he ends up getting the shit beat out of him. He just can't admit his shiity personality is the reason that happens. It's a generic troll trait.
One last thing, the burgers at In and Out aren't filled with disgusting trans-fats like at the other chains, the bread, meat and produce that's fresh, not frozen, and they use cholesterol-free real vegetable oil to cook the fries in instead of industial petrogunk, which is why the burgers taste so damned good. Order a burger "animal style." It's out of this world.
Good point Old Hat. Where I am there's plenty of healthy places to grocery shop, just not healthy places around where I work. Because I work on a college campus , they mostly cater to students. Enough said, huh.
I didn't mean to imply that Cali was all sprouts and stuff... I actually grew up there so I know it fairly well. I think you guys do get more of a variety.
I'm trying to buy organic, it's creepy all the stuff they put in food these days.
In and Out, is that a California place?
sac666, I think it's a kid who's never had a date. I noticed that Billmon bounced him earlier. What's sad is I think they have their own little troll society going.
Yeah, In and Out is pretty much as California as it gets. '57 Chevys and surfboards all the way. The business is hugely profitable and they've been expanding lately. Hopefully they'll expand out East and introduce America to the Great American Hamburger, guilt-free.
By the way, the guy who wrote "Fast Food Nation" said that In and Out was the only fast food place he likes because you're not eating Chemicalburgers, just real cheeseburgers, the way they used to make 'em.
Trader Joe's isn't just a grocery store, it's a religion. A new one opened just up the road - in Newport Beach, hardly the land of solidarity, but since the strike started it's been mobbed.
In 'n Out is also a religion, but I'm so far kind of agnostic about it. I know vaguely about the secret menu, but the range of offerings still seems kind of limited.
I've gotten the feeling that some folks, midwesterners in particular, think there's something sinful about enjoying really good coffee or interesting beer, and that Real People limit themselves to nationally advertised brands.
Californians don't necessarily disagree, but they choose to enjoy the sin instead.
Gordon being here was a pathetic cry for help.
I'm currently unemployed.
Happy gordon? Sure you are.
You want to help? Gathering some facts before you go shooting off your ill-informed opinions would be a good place to start.
Bad Jim, I've noticed that companies can either do a few things really well (like In and Out) or a lot of things poorly (McDonalds -- what the fuck is McDonalds serving mass produced fajitas for anyway?). In and Out makes (real ice cream) shakes, burgers and fries really fucking well. Besides, what else do you really want from a burger joint besides a burger, fries and a shake?
Trader Joe's is a cult. Join now. Save money. Eat quality food for less. We know where you live.
tom friedman is so desperate to be liked by the Bushies.
Davos is a corrupting force -
All these commentators like Charlie Rose and Friedman feel the need to explain and defend the ideals of the super rich upon their returns from the conference.
They have the delusion that they too are masters of the universe when in reality they are just the hired help.
But the brushes with the super rich have made them feel that they belong. so the commentatry becomes favorable.
"Most of the rich aren't oligarchs or robber barons, they are misunderstood entrepaneurs." And I have a bridge to sell you - good location, great income potential.
Tangent: My step-father was interviewed on Charlie Rose a few years ago. Step-dad said that Rose visibly had "a few drinks" before the interview and "spent exactly 5 minutes" reviewing the notes on 5"x3" cards his intern prepared before he started the interview about a subject he knew nothing about.
Did you see Noam Chomsky run circles around Rose's drunken head a month ago? It was a work of art.
For the past few weeks I've tried to lay out the tactics (whatever the task is, we know immediately that it requires tactics) we in the West (comfortably speaks for hundreds of millions of persons) can adopt to strengthen the moderates in the Arab-Muslim world to fight the war of ideas against the forces of intolerance (for we cannot tolerate intolerance) within their civilization — which is where the real war on terrorism will either be won or lost(just as soon as we discover whom we're fighting and perhaps if there's time, why they're trying to kill us). But if there is one thing I've learned in examining this issue it's this
yo, pay attention here) ideas don't just spread on their own.(one needs to soften them in a double boiler first) Ideas spread in a context.(watts used to say, separate the cloud from the sky) So often, since 9/11, people have remarked to me: "Wow, Islam, that's a really angry religion." (anecdotally, i would have to say conclusively that he must hang with interesting people)I disagree. (with whom he disagrees)I do agree, (except on this point)though, that there are a lot of young Muslims who are angry, because they live in some of the most repressive societies, with the fewest opportunities for women and youth, and with some of the highest unemployment. (amazing, the legacy of western imperialism) Bad contexts (bad, bad contexts)create an environment where humiliation — and the anger, bad ideas and violence that flow from it — are rife. (who'dathunkit)In short,(too late) it is impossible for us to talk (stop there)about winning the war of ideas in the Arab-Muslim world without talking about the most basic thing that gives people dignity and hope: A job.(fries with that sir?)
the red face just showed up, honest,
i promise not to use yo in the future
Gordon is a cunt. Please ignore him.
Tangent: My step-father was interviewed on Charlie Rose a few years ago. Step-dad said that Rose visibly had "a few drinks" before the interview and "spent exactly 5 minutes" reviewing the notes on 5"x3" cards his intern prepared before he started the interview about a subject he knew nothing about.
Did you see Noam Chomsky run circles around Rose's drunken head a month ago? It was a work of art.
Old Hat
Worth repeating, Old Hat. Yes I saw Noam Chomsky, Rose is intollerable without someone like him on. It was wonderful.
If Rose isn't the most worthless person whose image has been transmitted on TV I'd hate to hear who beats him.
Shortest Tom Friedman. "Money!"
...yet I rarely ever meet anyone that's unemployed.
Gordon the Magnificent
Merchant Marine.
Gordon the Magnificent
Another point, anybody see the wild discrepancy in those two posts?
Gordon isn't even a competent liar.
Tom Friedman is a troll. Please ignore him.
Friedman: they have this really amazing electronic global map that shows, with lights, how many people are using Google to search for knowledge
Is that what they call scooting for porn these days?
marquer, at 11:32 pm,
THIS is why I waste my time on these stupid blogs. I'm laughing so hard my arse is coming off. I'm still laughing at your comment dude, as I'm about to press the OK button.
Aw man, I just noticed, marquer's post is haiku.
That's art.
Question: What's a freeper?
Old Hat,
Rose's drinking is a not-well-kept secret. My friends and I have commented on it for years.
Glad you too saw Chomsky - He was brilliant. Rose kept trying to summ up the world in sound bites while misunderstanding key points of Chaomsky's book.
Did you when Kissinger was on?
Rose was full of laughs and smiles for a man who has a trendous amount of blood on his hands. Not a hard question ever.
Rose is so self-congratulatory without having journalistic
bases for most of his conclusory statements.
Compare Moyers and Rose and the differences are stark
Don't forget folks....from Kos:
Update: Blogging of the President: 2004, is going to have a live radio special tomorrow (Sunday at 9-11 PM). Among the guests will be Atrios, Andrew Sullivan... and others, hoping to parlay something about what this all means!
http://www.bloggingofthepresident.com
There is a link at bop for the radio show.
"Question: What's a freeper?
Publius II"
How long have you been online?
Hey kids,
Let's make this ignore Andy sullivan month!
So don't respond to his self-serving crap on "bloggingofthepresident"
Remember he's a gay man who wirte for Moon who believes all gays should be killed. We shouldn't react to Sullivan's mentally unbalanced opinions. He's sick so we should just wish him a speedy recovery from the delusional states he suffers.
"If this is a war of ideas, then why is Bush in charge"
That says it all, doesn't it
Your title made me think "Most snakes are longer than others"
But no
Friedman says the Europeans are to blame for 9/11
This is "apples make the barrel wood" or some other jiberish
I hate mr Bush, too. And I hate the custom that the north-americans made commerce qith Latin American´s countries.
I love my country, I love BRASIL
How long have you been online?
Not very long. As you can see, I'm not very accomplished at this. I didn't even know how to italicize till Seraphiel explained it to me. Anyway, if someone would just briefly tell me what a "freeper" is, I'd appreciate it.
Publius: What's a freeper?
Wild Eyed Lefty: How long have you been online?
I LUV U, Wild Eyed Lefty.
leo crowe,
Look leo!! There goes Carnival!!!
WHOOOOOO HOOOOOO!
I wuv u too Old Hat.
Anyway, if someone would just briefly tell me what a "freeper" is, I'd appreciate it.
"Freepers" are adherants to the hateful ideology expoused or someone who peruses and posts on the far-rightwing FreeRepublic.com website, a.k.a. the "good Germans" from the pre-WWII years. The Bush administration and it's apologists are all "freepers." By the way, "freepers" actually call themselves "freepers," like the Rushbots who call themselves "dittoheads."
"Freepers" are also known as "brownshirts," "wingers" or "fucking lunatics," in some blogospheric terms of parlance, i.e., here at Atrios' website.
I always hear people complaining about all the lost jobs, yet I rarely ever meet anyone that's unemployed.
Gordon the Magnificent | Email | Homepage | 01.24.04 - 11:59 pm | #
Gordon, perhaps the unemployed aren't in Walmart shopping. Perhaps they are out trying to find jobs...any type of jobs. Perhaps they have gotten depressed and given up. There are plenty of people without jobs. I wish I could say I rarely meet anyone unemployed. I wish I could say I didn't personally know any unemployed people. Unfortunately, that is not the situation. There are a lot of unemployed people around, they just aren't hanging out at the same places you are. They don't have the money for sports bars, video archades, stores, movies, operas, restaurants, etc... Why don't you go to shelters and food pantries and ask those people if they are unemployed? Ask them the situation that caused their unemployment. Find out that many were employed...recently..or maybe not so recently.... Why don't you go to whatreallyhappened.com and look at the 3 or 4 articles about certain companies that are going to be laying off workers this week. You could go hang out at those factories and ask the pink slipped people if they are unemployed as they leave....
Several posters have posted in the past couple months about losing their jobs. Perhaps you haven't been lurking on Escheton. Peace to all.
Thank you, Old Hat.
Anyway, if someone would just briefly tell me what a "freeper" is, I'd appreciate it.
"Freepers" are adherants to the hateful ideology expoused or someone who peruses and posts on the far-rightwing FreeRepublic.com website, a.k.a. the "good Germans" from the pre-WWII years. The Bush administration and it's apologists are all "freepers." By the way, "freepers" actually call themselves "freepers," like the Rushbots who call themselves "dittoheads."
"Freepers" are also known as "brownshirts," "wingers" or "fucking lunatics," in some blogospheric terms of parlance, i.e., here at Atrios' website.
Old Hat
Old Hat, that is almost verbatim of how I was going to answer him. Publius II might be attracted to that ideology, though. Espcecially with that posting name he chose. But I would warn him that I truly believe they've been so willing brainwashed over the years by hate radio and hate Internet sites, they're deranged. Insane. And Publius, they operate like a pack. When they target someone they consider liberal in the media or Hollywood, they harass and torment them sometimes with death threats. They're sick, man. Don't let them suck you in.
oldwhitelady,
Gordon's mummy sent him to bed a long time ago, so you'll have to catch him trolling on another thread if you want to communicate with him.
Too late, WEL, but thanks for the warning. I've been a confirmed conservative since Goldwater - too late to change me now.
But I'm respectful of other opinions, and I always announce myself when I post here.
This ain't my brand of politics - but it's fun to read and to throw in an occasional comment from a right-wing perspective.
My wife is now bugging me to get started on a Sunday morning New York ritual - going out to buy the bagels.
Later.
Did I just give away the store to a winger in disguise? Is Publius a winger?
Old Hat,
He thinks Goldwater and Bush freepers are the same 'conservatives.'
So he's totally clueless.
Publius: Ah! The truth is out!
Anyway, try the Ess-a-Bagel somewhere around E. 24th and 2nd (can't remember the cross street). Get a bag of Everythings with heaps of lox shmear. It's deee-lish. And some Dr. Brown's. Or Yoo-hoo, neither of which you can find on the West Coast.
March on, my crypto-winger friend! Godspeed! Good luck! Onward Christian solider! Git those motherfucking bagels! I say this knowing that New York is a lock in 2004! Get those bagels for your wife! Git 'em! Git those bagels and return to debate the all powerful Atrios clique!
Happy Sunday to you, sir!
Publius: Top-rated bialies (bagels without the hole and with the shredded onions in the middle) at Ess-a-Bagel, too. Try 'em, you'll like 'em.
Onward, winger soldier!
Did you know that 25% of American families have a net worth of ZERO? What makes us so fucken superior, I'd like to know?
*sighs*
Ladies and Gentlemen, the purpose of Gordon's blog is to annoy people... possibly also collect more phone numbers for our good friends voice-disguised crank calls. Perhaps he's not getting enough traffic at the Insult Anonymous blog. Perhaps it's someone else attempting to do the same thing. Either way, ignore the troll. For some pathetic people, trolling is considered "cool", in the same way acting "wild" in shops or a library is. It's the lowest form of humor, thinking getting people simply to react is funny. If our trolling friends are slightly more complicated, they may even get a feeling of 'owning' (or rather, 'pwn'ing) the targetted boards by being able to focus all attention on their own antics in the short term. I direct your attention to this masterful discussion of the kind of mindset involved;
How To Be An Elite Online Wanker
http://tinyurl.com/2m72n
Just one sample for you;
"Also punctuate your speech with random "heh’s" and "hehe’s", as well as emoticons that run counter to context that has been established. The only time you should use clear English is when being profane."
Sound like anyone who has visited here recently? Don't forget the "Teams for wankers" and "homepages for wankers" links at the end...
But, to end on a more intellectual note, and to risk charges of troll feeding hypocrisy, just one comment on the situation regarding supposed easy access to benefits. A certain philosopher once pointed to the US in America in 1844 as being one with remarkably tolerant laws regarding someone's freedom of religion... but that did not prevent discrimination; "A state can free itself from a limitation without man himself being truly free from it." In other words, the law may say one thing, but what happens when you ask men to enforce that law? But that's a point for our more intelligent posters here... Gordan The Magnificent is just looking to find out who is unemployed, so he can insult you, doOdz...
Old Hat,
Wingers always give themselves big pompous self-important posting names like "Publius" who long before, I think, was a pompous Roman speaker. It makes up for their tiny winger wieners.
"Did you know that 25% of American families have a net worth of ZERO? What makes us so fucken superior, I'd like to know?
Tomato Observer "
That's because America is a 1st World, a 2nd World and a 3rd World all in one.
Or rather: First World, Second World and Third World.
Old Hat, wingers always give themselves big pompous self-important posting names like "Publius" who long before, I think, was a pompous Roman speaker. It makes up for their tiny winger wieners.
Me? I'm just Old Hat -- old ideas that died with Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal. Old, fringe ideas like internationalism, a level playing field and rights and good wages for the average working man. A chicken in every pot, an end to fear itself. Crazy, huh?
You? You're just a Wild Eyed Leftist, with crazy ideas like perhaps the most wealthy nation in human history should provide all of its citizens with health coverage out of a sense of basic decency.
WEL, there are some nutjobs out there who think we're radical revolutionary socialists. We're not. OK, well I might be a radical revoltionary socialist but we have to stick together.
well, he might come back?? Anyway, I didn't do my homework and read the Friedman article. I didn't have a thought on that at the time...oooppps... still didn't - guess I had better start reading
Wild Eyed Lefty: That's because America is a 1st World, a 2nd World and a 3rd World all in one.
Didn't you hear? We got the trifecta!
.
Aena,
Please don't insult cunts that way.
oldwhitelady,
You didn't need to read the Friedman article. Others did so beforehand and provided adequate summaries above.
someone has done it, set up a Friedman watch blog
http://enduringfriedman.blogspot.com/
Old Hat,
The wingers are winning now because they have unlimited money. Those like Gordon don't understand they've been brainwashed by the best corporate funded advertisers/message money can buy. Beats the fuck out of the state funded propaganda of the old Soviet Union. The one issue that has made this possible is the issue of race. It's kept the poor and lower middleclass majority here from ever organizing together for a greater share which they have always done in Europe. That's not the case in there and it's why someone serving cappuccino coffee in Italy or fish and chips in London makes a living wage there but anyone doing the same here doesn't.
In the past, the poor and lower middleclass never wanted to identify with poor blacks. But I think that's changing now.
You thin you have it bad?
HAN SOLO IS FROZEN IN FUCKING LEGO™ CARBONITE!
That sorta explains freeper angst. See, they believe in the American myth that they too can become rich. They're white and believe they have a superior intelligence and they should organically inherit good fortune. These are the ones from the South and the other so-called, 'red-states.' And others sprinkled around the country. (I'm sure Gordon is from some small white enclave community someplace.) The reason the are so fiercely radicalized is because they believe their very lives are at threat. They're not going to say that it's the nigers, spicks, dykes or fags who are at fault. They'll use code-words to convey that to each other. And as miserable as Bush is to their best interests, they'll still vote for him because he walks the walk. That's why Bush appointed Pickering during the Congressional recess to send them his own personal message. It's all about race.
So you have a highly radicalized demographic of deranged fucks against the backdrop of a totally ignorant and apathetic American public who don't have a clue about what's going on and don't even know it.
Then you have the Armageddon of Bust Crowd whom Bush sends code-words to, also.
What a party, huh.
Did I just give away the store to a winger in disguise? Is Publius a winger?
I'm sorry - I thought you knew. I always announce my politics when I post, though; I don't want it to seem like I'm sniping.
I believe Ess-a-Bagel is on Third.
And yes, Publius was a pompous Roman senator, and of course the psuedonym used by Madison, Jay and Hamilton in the Federalist Papers. I suppose it is a bit overblown to use it. Should I change it? With tongue planted firmly in cheek, and with full knowledge of the type of response I'm likely to get, I ask: What should I use as a new name?
He thinks Goldwater and Bush freepers are the same'conservatives.'
I only mentioned Goldwater as it related to the length of time I've been politcally involved. I was too young to vote for him, though. I'm 52 now.
As for my tiny winger wienie, I asked my wife, and she said to tell you that no, it's not tiny.
And let me say this - the politics on this board are, from my admittedly right-wing perspective, weird; but it sure is fun to hang around.
wOOt is motherfucking God.
wOOt: "You have hibernation sickness. Your sight will return in time."
America: "Who -- who are you??"
wOOt: (Dramatically pulls off mask) "Someone who loves you!!"
And let me say this - the politics on this board are, from my admittedly right-wing perspective, weird; but it sure is fun to hang around.
Liberals are a whole lot more interesting and witty than conservoids, aren't they? C'mon, admit it.
Did you eat try the bialy?
There should have been a "/" between "eat" and "try" in reference to the bialy, in case you were wondering.
I was frozen in carbonite and I couldn't see the keyboard.
grammar nazi sez: couldn't care less
That's the original usage, which makes sense on the face of it. The newer usage, "could care less," is equally valid and grammatically sensible; it is an elided ironic inversion of the original. The full expression of "could care less" would be, "I could care less. If I tried real hard. Conceivably. Maybe."
Liberals are a whole lot more interesting and witty than conservoids, aren't they? C'mon, admit it. Did you eat try the bialy?
Well, on this board they sure are; I have no problem admitting it.
And no, I passed on the bialy. I had an Everything Bagel (how greedily right-wing!)with butter.
Ah, food. I knew that the right and left wings could find common ground somewhere.
I believe Ess-a-Bagel is on Third.
So you live in Liberal Jew City? Ha ha! Your winger vote is infinitely cancelled out, Publius!
Kidding! Sort of.
Have you tired the bialy?
Publius, how could an obviously sophisticated New Yorker with a sense of humor (which is exceedingly rare among wingers), like you, vote for Bush? I don't understand it. You see every single day that New York and therefore the rest of America thrives on dark-skinned immigrants who speak weird languages and practice weird religions, public sponsorship of the arts, public funding for science and public funding for parks and natural resources like Central Park...
I don't get it. Please explain. You're reasonable, unlike most wingers.
"As for my tiny winger wienie, I asked my wife, and she said to tell you that no, it's not tiny -- Publius II"
Of course she wouldn't agree with that. It's the same reason you don't tell her she's a fat cow.
So you live in Liberal Jew City? Ha ha! Your winger vote is infinitely cancelled out, Publius!
Yes, New York is a lonely place for the likes of me. That's why I thought that having the Republican National Convention here was such a great idea - it's like a sharp stick in the eyes of N.Y. Liberals. Regardless of the politics, don't you think that was an inspired idea?
~ahem~ I meant, fat bagel-eating cow.
Regardless of the politics, don't you think that was an inspired idea?
Sure, considering one million of my libby friends are going to descend on New York and protest the shit out of El Presidente Por Vida.
I'm not asking this as a partisan (which I obviously am) but doesn't it bother you that George Texas-by-way-of-Maine is using the WTC attacks as a political prop for his re-election campaign? Pushing back the conventon to September? Isn't that a little dirty? The WTC site is a graveyard, not a political tool. Doesn't that bother you in the slightest, as an American, not a Republican or Democrat or indepnendent or what have you?
I mean, for fuck's sake Publius, you and your family must have heard the WTC collapse. Friends tell me it was like a massive bomb going off. You're in the general area. My friend's family lives on Jay St. in Tribeca, four blocks from WTC. They swept ash and the dust of dead human bodies off of their steps. Their lungs are probably fucked from the asbestos Bush and the EPA lied about post-9/11. Isn't a little repulsive for you as a New Yorker that Bush is using the site of a massacre for political gain?
Pubic and his wife are stuffing each other's faces with bagels. I hate bagels. Seems like they would stop your bunghole up like a plug.
I like English muffins for breakfast, though.
5 Train to Wall Street or Fulton Street. Get out. Go up one flight of stairs. Throw a rock. Odds are you'll hit a Republican.
Staten Island Ferry. Free. Get off at St. George. Take the local transit a few miles south. You're in Repubican Central.
Metro North. 5-10 dollars to Greenwich. Republican Valhalla.
But I believe that most of the people you know in Manhattan are liberals. Those Republicans who work on Wall Street and live in Greenwich move in tiny little incestuous groups. They marry someone they meet in business school. They socialize with incestuous little groups of suburban parents. They care about things like hiring good domestic help and getting their kids into the right private schools schools.
Those Republicans out in Staten Island marry someone they went to high-school with and don't even like Manhattan.
The people you'll meet in Manhattan who will socialize with the likes of you and me, who are open minded enough to date people they didn't go to high-school with, who work in fields like publishing and the arts (fields where you don't make a ton of money) tend to be liberal democrats.
So if you're a lonely New York Republican, the solution is easy. Go back in time, get into the right schools, work 90 hours a week in your mid 20s as an analyst for Goldman Sachs, and, voila, you'll never have to talk to another liberal Democrat in your life.
Yes, New York is a lonely place for the likes of me.
Bagels are just too hard and chewy. I'm a chef. I used to make my own bagels. Bagels are a totally over-rated bread for fakes. Nobody would like bagels with all the other wonderful choices out there if it wasn't so over-hyped.
I can't believe that an entire 15-minute-to-write post just disappeared into the ether. Sigh. I'll try again.
Of course she wouldn't agree with that. It's the same reason you don't tell her she's a fat cow.
LOL. WEL, you show no mercy
Publius, how could an obviously sophisticated New Yorker with a sense of humor (which is exceedingly rare among wingers), like you, vote for Bush?
OH, with all respect, you and I could go at this for hours with neither of us scoring a single point.
When you're as passionate about your politics as you obviously are, as am I, the best we can hope for is to wave politely at one another from a great distance.
Additionally, and to the credit of this site, I've learned that one cannot post an offhand comment. The insistence that all remarks be backed up with citations is admirable, and necessary, but it would just take me too long to write even a short paragraph in defense of my beliefs. Besides, when it comes to Google-ing, you guys kick my ass.
You have to choose not only your fights, but where you want the arena to be. I could only get beat up pretty bad in this particular arena.
Besides, when it comes to Google-ing, you guys kick my ass.
PWN3D~! L0LZ0RZ!
Seriously, try the bialy sometime.
Publius, how could an obviously sophisticated New Yorker with a sense of humor (which is exceedingly rare among wingers), like you, vote for Bush?
"OH, with all respect, you and I could go at this for hours with neither of us scoring a single point.
When you're as passionate about your politics as you obviously are, as am I, the best we can hope for is to wave politely at one another from a great distance."
So, you're like saying, you voted and will vote again for Bush?
What is it about Bush you like?
And I don't have all day for you to answer.
Two places Bush has no chance of winning:
DC and New York City.
Two place where the threat of terrorism is most likely.
DC and New York City.
Do the math.
I mean, for fuck's sake Publius, you and your family must have heard the WTC collapse. Friends tell me it was like a massive bomb going off. You're in the general area. My friend's family lives on Jay St. in Tribeca, four blocks from WTC.
SWR: My mom and sister both live in Washington D.C. I find myself gripped with fear for their lives every week or so.
But it's only a bunch of poor black people who live there and some monuments so who really cares, right? Anthrax, Beltway snipers, suitcase bombs.
Strange world we live in.
Hey Pubic, that bagel you just scarfed is going to plug your bunghole up. Enjoy.
I don't understand it. You see every single day that New York and therefore the rest of America thrives on dark-skinned immigrants who speak weird languages and practice weird religions, public sponsorship of the arts, public funding for science and public funding for parks and natural resources like Central Park...
Yes, OH, that's very true. But you see Bush's Presidency as antithetical to that, and I don't. We're wired differently.
Look, I believe in George Bush and his policies. That statement alone, made on this site, will brand me as a Nazi - a title I am no more deserving of than Bush is. But c'est las vie., if I want to play in this ballpark, I'm gonna get a few thrown at my head.
By the way, my favorite appelation, given to me after my very first post, was "moronic, shit-spewing brownshirt". I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for that one. If I ever do change my name here, it will be to MSSB.
Publius II, I want to know if you question the wisdom of the convention being held in NYC. Doesn't that strike you as a bit insensitive, especially since it happened during Bush's presidency and after he had just spent a month on vacation? Especially since he's stonewalled the 9/11 investigation.
It will have been three years since this occurred. THREE YEARS. And there are still too many questions that haven't been answered. This is not going to go away.
What do you think would have happpened to this investigation if Dems controlled Congress?
I was a few blocks south of the towers on 9/11. Here's my theory.
If you actually live in New York, terrorism is something you have to deal with. It could happen. Some religious fanatic could walk into Grand Central and detonate a bomb and could kill hundreds of people.
So you think critically about the issue. Is Bush actually making us safer? Did Saddam actually have ties to Al Qaeda. What about Pakistan and North Korea? Aren't they more likely to give WMDs to Al Qaeda than Saddam was.
But if you live in "fly over terrority" 9/11 is a kind of quasi-mystical religious event. The odds that you'll die in a terrorist attack are astronomically small. So you project all of your fears, racial hatred, anger into 9/11. Those Arabs, immigrants, liberals, etc. are responsible for what I'm afraid of.
And you identify with Bush. You identify with power.
What do you have to lose if Bush is fucking up. What do you care if Tom Kean got stonewalled and we're not getting to see what *could have been done* to prevent those planes from hitting the towers.
All you care about is revenge. The solution is easy. Let's pick an Arab country, any one, and kick some ass. Let's murder a few thousand civilians to let them know we can do it too goddammmit.
Think about it. That clown who wrote "Do You Remember" probably agrees with John Rocker on NYC. NYC is not his fucking homeland so I wish he'd just shut up.
Two places Bush has no chance of winning:
DC and New York City.
Two place where the threat of terrorism is most likely.
DC and New York City.
Do the math.
Not a good example, IMO, SWR. Who was the last Republican presidential candidate to win NY and/or DC?
I'm serious, now that I think of it, I would like to know. In any event, it's not like NYC and DC are changing their stripes by voting Democrat - they always did anyway.
Look, I believe in George Bush and his policies.
Damn, you're crazier than I thought.
Hey Publius II, Welcome. It's nice to hear from someone who doesn't agree that isn't looking for troll points (kinda like Greenstamps, but totally worthless). One question though, aren't you afraid the wingers might notice and destroy you as a dangerous aberation?
And really, come on, Bush? What exactly does he represent? (Okay, that's two)
If 9/11 changed everything and if Bush is really more likely to compentently protect us from terrorism than John Kerry or Howard Dean, wouldn't people do the math and switch to the Republicans?
I don't see how invading Iraq's made us any safer.
I see Bush as:
1.) Ignoring North Korea and Pakistan
2.) Coddling the Saudis
3.) Fucking up homeland security. He's more concerned with pandering to racial fears of Arabs than he is with figuring out how the fuck we do protect ourselves from crazed religious fanatics armed with 767s.
4.) Stonewalling on the issue of why 9/11 happened. Could it have been prevented? Why is he stonewalling Republican Tom Kean and a lot fo Republican 9/11 widows?
5.) Alienating people in Western Europe because he naively believes that fighting terrorism is about M1 tanks and aircraft carriers (which the Germans and French don't have) and not about intelligence and policework (which they do have).
Sorry. But if you actually have to deal with the threat of terrorism, you have serious questions about Bush.
I'm serious, now that I think of it, I would like to know. In any event, it's not like NYC and DC are changing their stripes by voting Democrat - they always did anyway.
SWR, you've nailed it. I read an article several months ago that stated that property insurance premiums are much higher in NYC and DC because that's where the threat of terrorism is seen to be greatest.
It should make the rest of us more objective, not more vindictive.
Revenge isn't sweet. The Iraqis were scapegoats. Those who wanted war should be so ashamed.
Publius II, I want to know if you question the wisdom of the convention being held in NYC. Doesn't that strike you as a bit insensitive...
Hi, pie. No, it doesn't. Along with a catastrophic loss of life, NYC got a real economic kick in the teeth on 9/11. Having the convention here will be a big help. I still believe that NYC and DC are getting short-changed on anti-terrorism funds. I'm no fan of Chuck Schumer, but at least he's speaking up on this issue.
Would that the Dems had their convention here, too. We could use the help.
That clown who wrote "Do You Remember" probably agrees with John Rocker on NYC. NYC is not his fucking homeland so I wish he'd just shut up.
I don't know what his motives were for writing the song; I just take it at it's face value. Regarding John Rocker, I say this as a Republican, a New Yorker, and perhaps most importantly, as a Met fan:
Fuck John Rocker.
I read an article several months ago that stated that property insurance premiums are much higher in NYC and DC because that's where the threat of terrorism is seen to be greatest.
Absolutley true. If you don't want to pay the additional premium for "terrorism coverage", you have to sign a waiver. Of course, if you sign it and your property happens to become the next Ground Zero, you're our of luck in more ways than one.
The Republicans have the right to hold their convention in NYC. I don't have a probem with that.
But I do hope that Bloomberg doesn't deny people the right to protest the convention.
What I'd like to see is the Republicans coming into the city and behaving themselves as guests. What I don't want to see is a goon squad swaggering into Manhattan, getting the NYPD to bust heads, herding people into "free speach zones" and using Ground Zero for a lot of tasteless photo-ops (and keeping people like me miles from the President while he does it).
Judging by the way they behaved in London, I'm not optimistic.
(btw: I'd like to see them hold it in Berkeley or Seattle but that's just me)
Hi, pie. No, it doesn't. Along with a catastrophic loss of life, NYC got a real economic kick in the teeth on 9/11. Having the convention here will be a big help.
SWR: You gonna be there come the convention? I'm gonna march like a solider for this one.
Publius II, I agree that the convention could bring in a lot of money, but I also worry that other *factors* may end up costing New York some big bucks and will not end up being a positive experience. Frankly, this would make this whole episode doubly tragic.
Again, Bush is taking a big chance here. I hope everything goes well, for the sake of New Yorkers.
Wouldn't miss it for the world.
But, as I said, the Republicans have the right to hold a convention in New York, but, once they do, they also have *the obligation* to allow people to protest it.
Once they come to New York, their convention is a public, civic event funded with public money. It becomes larger than one party. NYC's streets become the equivalent of the Capital Mall or the reflecting pool.
Bloomberg has the obligation to make sure peoples' first amendment rights aren't violated.
SWR: You gonna be there come the convention? I'm gonna march like a solider for this one.
if there were more tom friedmans, there'd be more fat half-witted white guys with horrible facial hair.
One question though, aren't you afraid the wingers might notice and destroy you as a dangerous aberation?
LOL. No, sac. Right-wingers aren't Nazis, nor do we have Thought Police. And I think that the silent majority of roght-wingers are exactly like me.
If 9/11 changed everything and if Bush is really more likely to compentently protect us from terrorism than John Kerry or Howard Dean, wouldn't people do the math and switch to the Republicans?
First, we don't know that they're not switching to Bush. I certainly think many will if Dean is the nominee - no offense intended. Only the election itself will tell us about the accuracy of your statement.
Nah. People in New York tend to be a bit too sophisticated to fall for media bullshit like trying to represent Dean as crazy because of a rebel yell at a rally.
That stuff plays in flyover terrority, not here.
In Manhattan anyway, people are smart enough to realize that Dean is probably more conservative then Bloomberg.
First, we don't know that they're not switching to Bush. I certainly think many will if Dean is the nominee
What I don't want to see is a goon squad swaggering into Manhattan, getting the NYPD to bust heads, herding people into "free speach zones" and using Ground Zero for a lot of tasteless photo-ops (and keeping people like me miles from the President while he does it).
Look, there's protesting and there's protesting. Bloomberg's a fair guy, and I suppose that as long as things don't get crazy, there won't be any problems. Of course - define "crazy".
As for Ground Zero, I don't think President Bush needs to do any photo ops there. The only photo he needs (and it wasn't an op)is the one that was taken of him holding the bullhorn, with the retired fireman by his side.
But remember; Republicans are not stupid. They are not about to give themselves a black eye and invite backlash by politicizing Ground Zero. My guess is that anything like that will be taboo for precisely that reason. Just being in NYC makes enough of a statement, really.
I think Bloomberg is going to be under enormous pressure from the Republicans to bust heads.
His record isn't enouraging.
On February 15th, he denied a permit to anti-war protests because the security level was jacked up to orange.
A few months later, the "Celebrate Israel" parade was giving a permit to hold a rally on 5th Avenue.
They defended the decision to deny the February 15th march a permit because it was supposedly a possible target for terrorists.
And the "Celebrate Israel" march wasn't?
Look, there's protesting and there's protesting. Bloomberg's a fair guy, and I suppose that as long as things don't get crazy, there won't be any problems. Of course - define "crazy".
I certainly think many will if Dean is the nominee - no offense intended.
Publius II, I wouldn't expect that someone of your political persuasion would be interested at all in Dean. As a Dem, I want someone who runs counter to Bush's policies, not someone who's uncomfortably close to them.
The fact that you don't like Dean is a plus for him, as far as I'm
concerned.
But remember; Republicans are not stupid. They are not about to give themselves a black eye and invite backlash by politicizing Ground Zero. My guess is that anything like that will be taboo for precisely that reason. Just being in NYC makes enough of a statement, really.
Did you hear that, Karl?
I think Bloomberg is going to be under enormous pressure from the Republicans to bust heads.
I would have thought that head-busting would be the last thing that Republicans would want. Put yourself in our shoes - would you like Chicago '68 redux? No way. Nor would Bloomberg - it's his city now.
I pray that the demonstrations don't turn violent or abusive.
This is probably true and it's also why people who protest them are going to have to be a lot more creative than the usual International Answer bullshit.
You have to take the image of the towers back from Bush, demonstrate how the Republicans are fucking up on the security issue, ask a lot of questions about why 9/11 happened.
I don't want to see Free Mumia signs this fall.
I want to see 9/11 widows asking why they're stonewalling the 9/11 commission.
But remember; Republicans are not stupid. They are not about to give themselves a black eye and invite backlash by politicizing Ground Zero. My guess is that anything like that will be taboo for precisely that reason. Just being in NYC makes enough of a statement, really.
Gotta run now. Thank you pie, SWR, sac, etc. for the conversation. Even you, Wild Eyed Leftie, you muffin eater, you.
Sorry it wandered so off-topic. See you soon.
I don't think they care and I don't think they understand New York.
The NYPD is very, very sophisticated in terms of crowd control. They'll try to bring out their barricades and pen people into free speach zones far away from Bush.
They may succede. But I think people should resist these tactics without getting violent. I'm not going to respect the NYPD pens. But I'm ont going to put on a black mask and smash windows.
I think the people who protest Bush have to be smart or the NYPD will simply defuse them.
And I also think that violence would hurt the protesters more than it would hurt the Republicans.
Just find one little teenage wingnut who torches a flag at ground zero and you'll have the Fox News photo-op for the next 8 months.
And if Dean gets the nomination, they'll try to associate him with any violence in New York, if it happens.
I would have thought that head-busting would be the last thing that Republicans would want. Put yourself in our shoes - would you like Chicago '68 redux? No way. Nor would Bloomberg - it's his city now.
Well, if you want to be factual, it would be knid of hard (or at least pointless) to be a Nazi outside of Germany, maybe you meant fascist, then again, maybe you avoided that term for a reason.
As for the Thought Police, it seems to me strictly a lack of technology, but I've been called ignorant before, so take it as you will. I think maybe you really need to take a good hard look at the people on your side. I'm a Democrat, I know we have nuts. I'm just happy that, for the most part, their hearts are on the decent side. Wish I could say the same about the current GOP.
Let's make this ignore Andy sullivan month!
Let's, it would finish him off. Or he'd just go back to the mad tea party in his head to talk to his multiple personalities.
George Bush has policies? He personally hasn't got diddly. His cohorts have politically calculating reactions, that they advertise as policies- ask Paul O'Neil.
And many of the best posts here have no citations or even statistics. They run the gamut-and they're all good.
I learn from them all- I hope it never becomes all dry or strictly factual.
I've been a confirmed conservative since Goldwater - too late to change me now.
Speaking of Goldwater, can you bring him back? I'd rather have real conservatives than these regressive lunatics that're running things right now.
"... the most basic thing that gives people dignity and hope: A job.
Funny, after a day at work I feel a stinging lack of dignity and am starved for hope."
Ha ha, well said, satiRic!
Look, I believe in George Bush and his policies. That statement alone, made on this site, will brand me as a Nazi
No, not in your case, because an intelligent and articulate person should know the difference between "policy" and "a scam".
The Bush Crime Family has redistributed the wealth of the country's taxpayers to its major constituents, rewritten a perfectly good Constitution, and used America's lower- and middle-class sons and daughters as cannon fodder to drop flaming death upon Iraqi families, so that a cabal of Texas businesses for which the Bush Crime Family fronts can make billions "rebuilding" that sorry country.
This is then repackaged as "ideology" or "policy" of some sort, with buzzwords for the terminally stupid, such as "terrorism", "9-11", "freedom" etc. It is flogged by modern-day Father Coughlins like Rush and Hannity, and the knuckle-draggers eat it up and, cruelly, are convinced that they are capable of forming a "political opinion". The support of this sea of doofuses is what keeps the Bush Crime Family in power.
Now Publius... having explained the difference between "policies" and "a scam"... what the fuck could your excuse for supporting Bush POSSIBLY be?
I think the premise that the existence of liberal democracies encourages the switch to liberal democracies in neighboring countries is entirely defensible. There are numerous examples of this - in East Asia the example of Japan begot Korea and Taiwan and in Europe where the freedom available in Western European democracies slowly undermined the legitimacy of the commies leading to 1989 the spread of democracies in E Europe.
If Iraq turns out into a moderate democracy it not fanciful to think the same thing could happen in neighboring countries.
Hey Publius,
Or anyone else who converses with Publius if he doesn't come back to this thread, and can pass on the message,
What do you think of George W. Bush's comment "I can't wait to hang it" after receiving a portrait of Martin Luther King from Martin Luther King's widow on the anniversary of his birthday?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/
20020121-1.html
I'm interested to know what you think of that.
If Iraq turns out into a moderate democracy it not fanciful to think the same thing could happen in neighboring countries.
And if America turns into a fascist dictatorship, it's not fanciful to think the same thing could happen in Canada and Mexico. If, if, if.
If things were different, they wouldn't be the same.
Friedman's error is in presuming that Iraq will simply turn into a peaceful, unified democracy. Considering how determined the US and their puppets are to stop elections, I don't see democracy breaking out there any time soon.
I don't think it is fair to say that the US is determined to stop elections. The point is that an enduring democracy requires a lot more that just one day when you have an election. You need civil instituitons in place to support that democracy, so that there is more than one election and that in those subsequent elections incumbent who lose leave office. Hitler, Arafat, Mugabe were all elected in some kind of open elections, but none of them submitted to any subsequent election.
The point is that an enduring democracy requires a lot more that just one day when you have an election. You need civil instituitons in place to support that democracy, so that there is more than one election and that in those subsequent elections incumbent who lose leave office.
All of this is true. It further underlines the problems that arise when one undertakes an invasion without a plan for what to do during the occupation.
The IGC is made up US appointees, mostly of exiles (people who left Iraq and didn't have to deal with Saddam's depredations). It doesn't enjoy any significant popular support within Iraq, and there's no reason to expect any of the council's decisions to lead the country any closer to democracy.
As long as the US plans revolve around the IGC, the whole process will be doomed to fail.
If exiles make a government illegitimate, then DeGaulle's post war government in France was illegitimate.
Also, when you charge the IGC is made mostly of exiles, are you counitng the Kurd's as exiles? They have been out of Iraq, under the protection of the no fly zone for ten years.
I think there are plenty of reasons to suspect the IGC could lead Iraq to democracy. One of them is that the IGC is directed, protected and supported by the US military which has the best record of any military in world history of developing democracies in lands where it has bases, having done so successfully in Germany, Japan, South Korea and the US South.
I only have a few minutes here today, but I wanted to respond to some posters that wrote after I left the board the other day. The thing about this HaloScan is that you lose the thread after a day or two. At the only other board on which I post (for NY Met fans), you can at least resurrect a thread. Anyway, if anyone’s still reading this one, here goes:
What do you think of George W. Bush's comment "I can't wait to hang it" after receiving a portrait of Martin Luther King from Martin Luther King's widow on the anniversary of his birthday?
Mag: I don’t know, false enthusiasm, maybe? What did you want him to say? What do you want me to say? Am I missing something? I went to the link and read the release, and I’m still not seeing it.
Look, I believe in George Bush and his policies. That statement alone, made on this site, will brand me as a Nazi
No, not in your case, because an intelligent and articulate person should know the difference between "policy" and "a scam".
The Bush Crime Family has redistributed the wealth of the country's taxpayers to its major constituents, rewritten a perfectly good Constitution, and used America's lower- and middle-class sons and daughters as cannon fodder to drop flaming death upon Iraqi families, so that a cabal of Texas businesses for which the Bush Crime Family fronts can make billions "rebuilding" that sorry country.
This is then repackaged as "ideology" or "policy" of some sort, with buzzwords for the terminally stupid, such as "terrorism", "9-11", "freedom" etc. It is flogged by modern-day Father Coughlins like Rush and Hannity, and the knuckle-draggers eat it up and, cruelly, are convinced that they are capable of forming a "political opinion". The support of this sea of doofuses is what keeps the Bush Crime Family in power.
Now Publius... having explained the difference between "policies" and "a scam"... what the fuck could your excuse for supporting Bush POSSIBLY be?
Barry Champlain
Barry: Pardon my confusion (and I swear I’m not being sarcastic – I really am confused) if I wonder aloud how I could be “intelligent and articulate” in the first sentence, and a few paragraphs later, because I do believe in what you call “scams” repackaged as policy, I’ve morphed into:
1) Terminally stupid.
2) A Knuckle-Dragger.
3) A Droplet in a Sea of Doofuses.
To be continued…….
Now matter how far-fetched I often find accusations made on this board (the Bush Crime Family?), I never infer that the writer has anything other than well-reasoned, by his standards, motives behind writing them. To not do so is to choke off all hope of any exchange of ideas.
So you have a choice to make. You can believe that my opinions are well-reasoned by my standards - even if they differ from yours – or you can believe that I am a terminally stupid, knuckle-dragging doofus and ignore them.
Let’s for now, just deal with The Bush Crime Family has redistributed the wealth of the country's taxpayers to its major constituents.
By this I assume you are referring to an across-the-board tax cut, which you deem to be unfair because everybody that paid in gets a portion of their own money back. The same portion, I think. IMO, a level playing field is not skewed against the so-called “wealthy”, it is, in fact skewed against no group.
If there were more liberal democracies, there would be more tyrannies.
Republican Note to the Brown People.
We will only help you or invade you and overthrow your ruler if you have our oil. If you don't go @#$% yourselves.
There that should clarify things.
I see you have a new TV series named after me.
Chuck
Heh. As if you know.
I am the Akashic record.
You hate me because I know you.
Wicked smart troll!
If there were more liberal democracies, there would be more tyrannies.
Allyson
Yah really think so?
What is capitalism, but exploitation of your perversity?
is not then materialism the downfall of man?
And is not materialism what made man?
Answer me this riddle!!
If there were more liberal democracies, there would be more tyrannies.
Allyson
Cmon think about it, Capitalism IS Liberalism. Its what the theocracys, such as Islam, are not.
However Capitalism, such as Marx foresaw, evolves into dictatorships because wealth concentrates power, the problem of democracy is not the peoples morals but the unmoderated power that wealth brings.
Its a dilemma of many ages.
And is not materialism what made man?
Answer me this riddle!!
Wicked Smart Troll
It is what made man physical but his thoughts are as energy or light.
And so wicked smart troll, is your soul material or is it not?
Test
In 2006 and early 2007 the situation was the exact opposite.
http://methoo.com
Characters Remaining:
Commenting by HaloScan
