I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
The DLC are "Dean boosters"? WTF?
Oops, my bad. Apparently the piece is referring to people inside the DLC who went against DLC policy in supporting Dean.
circular firing squad, reload
The 527 Democrats, eh?
Toricelli will never be out of work then.
There's an old saying that probably applies here:
"No good deed goes unpunished."
That's okay, I didn't really expect gratitude from a bunch of beltway brats. As long as they beat Bush, they can play sandbox politics inside the party to their hearts content.
"No good deed goes unpunished."
You beat me to it, Doc.
Party Unity is the ONLY way ABB can win.
If this happens I am DONE DONE DONE with the Democratic party. Dean was the only one to take the fight to Bush months before it was the cool thing to do. Dean made me feel proud to be a Democrat again.
Hating Bush does not mean loving Kerry. If the DLC beleived it does they are fools beyond my wildest fears.
Fuck. 4 more years of Bush thanks to the DLC.
Do they really think it's wise to remind us of why we were so fed up with them before Dean? Or is TNR just trying to spred discontent?
Political business as usual folks. Nothing to see here.
Can go here for the full article, http://www.dailykos.com/story/20...2/14/12730/
6680
Heaven forbid the Dems have a candidate dropped into their lap who can raise money and energize new voters like no one in their history--destroy him!
I sure hope this isn't true.
can anyone here picture the GOP not only chastizing but ABANDONING "McCainaics" 6 months before the general election because Bush was their guy?
When a sizable portion of registered democrats don't show up to the ballot boxes this year...let Terry McAuliff figure it out.
can anyone here picture the GOP not only chastizing but ABANDONING "McCainaics" 6 months before the general election because Bush was their guy?
When a sizable portion of registered democrats don't show up to the ballot boxes this year...let Terry McAuliff figure it out.
I hope there is little truth in this. Since it is TNR, there probably is LITTLE truth in the article. If any part of it comes true, I will turn in my Democratic strips. I truly do believe in ABB, BUT the inside the beltway pink tutu Democrats gave the god damn chimp carte blance to invade Iraq. 500 Americans are dead, and the god damn article quotes some Dem worried about the Democratic Party retaining its antiwar label. Shit! There WERE NO WMDs! It didn't take a rocket scientist to come to that conclusion BEFORE the war began. For my money, the pink tutu Dems voted for the IWR, because their pollster told them to. And for that, they will never be forgiven, including Kerry.
I contributed to the Dean campaign. I backed him because he stood against the War. Many of the 'quotes' he was crucified for I believed myself. The inside the beltway Democrats, which includes both Clintons and Begala and Carville, can kiss my ass. I voted for Clinton twice. I would not do it again, and under no circumstances will I vote for Hillary, regardless of the office. Since I live in California, the is little likelyhood I will be faced with that task.
If true, then it's Reason #527 why I'm not a Democrat, or a member of any party.
TNR is a trashy rag and will sow dissent whenever it can. Fuck them.
Okay, instead of spewing "republican talking points" allow me to just offer my own view of this. The Dems have decided that.....
Dean is unelectable because he yells
Edwards is unelectable because he looks to young.
So they are going to go with a northeastern liberal with no gubernatorial experience, looks like Herman Munster had a fight with a blowdryer, makes his living off of marrying multiple heirresses, throws away other soldiers medals as protest, and now quite possibly has an "intern" problem.
Now maybe it's just because I'm an "outsider" but doesn't that look just a little wacky to anybody else?
God, Peter, I hope you're wrong.
First, and I say this as a committed Deaniac, even now, ABB. Then, Fuck You, Terry McC. Then, Fuck You, Bill Clinton, who never met a Republican Idea he didn't like, you're retired already, go somplace and make peace there. Build houses with Jimmy.
Then, Joe Trippi for Congress.
But first, ABB.
A.
When a sizable portion of registered democrats don't show up to the ballot boxes this year...let Terry McAuliff figure it out.
There's got to be a better way to send that message. Any politicos out there with ideas on how to make the DNC listen?
They really are such utter shitheads. In some ways worse than those in power. I mean, Bush and his cronies just fucking can't help themselves. They wake up in the morning, and might have a fleeting thought, like "I think I'll go help someone today." But then they come fully awake and say, "Naw, who am I kidding? Bring it on!"
The Dems, on the other hand, have a choice.
Beth - for what it's worth, I sure agree with you - there has to be a better way.
First, and I say this as a committed Deaniac, even now, ABB. Then, Fuck You, Terry McC
Agreed wholeheartedly.
Then, Joe Trippi for Congress.
Trippi? No way.
Aren't there rumors that Jeffords wants to retire from the Senate pretty soon?
Howard Dean for Senator from Vermont!
Tena, ya know, of course I'm ABB, but jesus christ already. The DNC gets their power from that fact alone. I mean, that's fucken it. If they didn't have ABB, they would have nothing. So you'd think they'd be just a little more fucken gracious about it.
Attila, thank you.
May I fill in a few choice morsels that you excluded, like how the Dems want to run against Bush a guy who voted with Bush on some of the worst policies, AND skipped out on voting against the Medicare bill, AND the FCC vote against de-regulation AND is rumored to have more than one intern problem waiting in the wings..a
Anyone else care to add?
Do they want to win in 2004?
I have been volunteering on Senator Kerry's campaign since July '03, and currently do tabling throughout the Bay Area. I can tell you that this story is absolutely false. Those working on the Kerry campaign have respect and admiration for our friends in the Dean campaign. Today, I tabled next to a Dean campaign contingent. We had collegial discussions about bringing our efforts together. I assure you, the strong and united efforts of democracts to do away with the deplorable corruption of aWol far exceeds any temporary contention between those engaged in the struggle.
WE ARE UNITED AGAINST BUSH!
There's got to be a better way to send that message. Any politicos out there with ideas on how to make the DNC listen?
I've been pondering this very question myself for a while now. And really...I don't know. We control a significant money spigot...but if we turn that off trying to get them to listen to us, we lose the election. Frankly, I don't know that they listen to anything other than money. We're really in a bind here, it seems.
C'mon this comes from the NEW REP, I don't trust the NR as far as I can throw it.
Could this be another dirty trick?
This doesn't make sense, I think theres more chance the Deaniacs might still be angry at the insiders, then the other way around, but that will pass, and Bush will not live happily ever after.
Peace, have a good day and ABB&B!
Today, I tabled next to a Dean campaign contingent. We had collegial discussions about bringing our efforts together
That's great news to hear. The only thing is, though, could you send that sentiment to Kerry contingents in other parts of the country? Some of the stories I read over on Kos of the arrogance of Kerry supporters during the Washington caucues for instance was rather saddening.
Veritas, tell the Dean canvassers in NH who were physically assaulted by your goons about Kerry's respect and admiration for us.
Oh and Veritas, if Kerry is so interested in clean politics and extending respect to the Dean supporters, ask Kerry to give Toricelli back his dirty money used on the Atwaterish kill ads against Dean.
Attila,
Please get your terminology straight. You are not an "outsider". You are a troll. That spew of minutiae about Kerry shows not only that your sole interest is in sliming Dems, but that your promise to avoid "republican talking points" wasn't worth the paper it wasn't written on.
Now please go away. This is a serious issue with some important arguments to be made on both sides. Your games aren't welcome here.
I live in Georgia, and I offered to join the party and do volunteer work three years ago. The only response I've ever gotten has been a few invitations to fund raising dinners - $1000 a plate.
The Democratic Party of my childhood was a community affair. The modern Democrats have become a private club, disinterested in any voices but their own.
Our first priority has to be defeating Bush, but our agenda can not stop there. We must and shall change the leadership of the DLC and reclaim politics for every American.
OT I've been going through a nickname evolution, from cj to variations of sting. I figure I've finally settled on tings. I'm more of a tings then a sting.
May I, once again, recommend a movie? Sidney Lumet's "Power".
LOL!! Beth I'm just pointing out what Kerry is going to get hammered with come this fall. And calling it minutiae is ducking reality, since in the last four southern moderates that the Dems have run has won (at least the popular vote) and the last three northern liberals they have run have lost by landslides. Thats not minutiae, thats history.... try learning from it. It kind of puts that perception of "electable" in perspective.
The unity of everything left of center in opposition to Bush is not necessarily a good thing. Many people have seemingly forgotten that the Democrats are part of the problem, and that installing a Democrat in the White House, while this will offer a much needed respite from the excesses of the Bush administration, is not a solution to the problem which is the political stauts quo in the United States. The left and far left could do serious damage to the Democratic party, leading perhaps to its ultimate hijacking, by sitting this election out and letting Bush get elected. But many on the left are unwilling to take a long term view of leftist political strategy, or make such a serious wager. So we are simply prepared to reproduce the status quo, and play into the hands of the Republican-Democratic political duopoly.
May I, once again, recommend a movie? Sidney Lumet's "Power"
Dude, recommending ANYTHING by Sidney Lumet is usually a good idea.
>what Kerry is going to get hammered with come this fall
And who's cum is he getting splattered with?
Is this some Skull and Bones reference?
Holden?
"Dems have a candidate dropped into their lap who can raise money and energize new voters like no one in their history--destroy him!"
Big deal. He turned off the old voters. Dean's negatives with democrats are what, 40%? Besides he was never a different kind of anything.
Sorry Rolph, you can't argue with history: Dean raised more money in a a couple quarters than any Democrat in history. That's different. And he did it from small donors, average donation,
They just want to make damn sure that no Dean supporter will donate money to Kerry or the DNC. OK. No problem.
This sounds like a planted story.
If the Democratic leadership doesn't want initative and independent action operating on their side, all they need to do is say so.
They just want to make damn sure that no Dean supporter will donate money to Kerry or the DNC.
They, in this instance, being the New Republic who're happily on their way to endorsing the Shrub in November.
Of course, the ABK brigade loves to claim they're not media-influenced sheeple...
Nobody talks about what happens to contributions if you get stuck with a candidate with 40% negatives with democrats, lousy head to head #s with Bush even at the top of his game.
Practical democrats rejected a risky Dean scheme. A few of his more juvenile supporters who somehow got convinced he's a different kind of democrat might take their ball and go home because they are mad people failed to appreciate their savior.
well, the DLC may give Ralph incentive to run yet.
once again, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
better get out your checkbooks and contribute to awol now, rather than regret it later after his election when the irs shows up at your door.
are there bonesmen running the DLC?
The DNC & John Kerry - they want your money. Period. The sooner you learn that, the less harsh the onset of cognitive dissonance will be after election day.
TNR & the DLC - these bastard stepchildren need to be given back to the GOP which spawned them.
Question: I have never been involved in organized party politics; if I go work at my local democrat headquarters, can I begin to have influence on the assholes in Washington? What if a lot of us volunteer around the country?
Question: I have never been involved in organized party politics; if I go work at my local democrat headquarters, can I begin to have influence on the assholes in Washington? What if a lot of us volunteer around the country?
Question: I have never been involved in organized party politics; if I go work at my local democrat headquarters, can I begin to have influence on the assholes in Washington? What if a lot of us volunteer around the country?
Okay, boys & girls, we need to play well with one another.
There is one, and only one, immediate task: getting rid of the fascists.
Then we can proceed to do battle among ourselves.
No, I don't expect all that much from Kerry (but most Dem's didn't think FDR would amount to much). But, for now, repeat after me: Get rid of the bastards.
Rolph, are you a troll?
I can't imagine that a real democrat would discredit Dean's contribution as you have - even though he was not completely successful, you are just being - a troll? to pretend otherwise. You wouldnt just be trying to stir up shit now would you to make it more likely the Democrats wont have a united party going into this thing, now would you? Uh, yeah is my guess. Shooo- go away, scaat!!
Practical democrats rejected a risky Dean scheme.
Rolph, such Democrats can get their nominee nominated, but you can't win the election without the Dean supporters. Kerry can't raise as much money as Dean and can't attract new voters and can't attract enthusiasm. So if Kerry becomes the nominee, it behooves all Dean supporters to ask Kerry, "What are you going to do for me?" Because he needs us.
sorry (3X)
Great...can't even get past the primaries, and already Democrats are blasting away at each other. When will Democrats understand that the enemy is the OTHER major party.
Christ, it makes me think that winning is no longer a desired outcome for them--as long as they screw over their erstwile coalition partners...damn.
And the Lieberman supporters -- they should really be punished.
Starting with TNR.
DLC's choice, Lieberman was run out on a rail.The other candidates left who stood a chance _including Dean_ are better but all the same "purity."
Vote for the nominee or live with Bush.
TNR is a republican troll. Don't feed them.
- c'mon folks, didnt we expect this? The Repugs know that they are lookin shakey. We are giving them a solution by rising to such easily planted bait. Knock it off and lets grow up here. I am a Deanie and still a little ticked but not so ticked off as to bite on this one. Kerry and his people might be irritated with Dean and his people but they can do math just like anyone and are not suicidal. Please expect the trolls and others to plant all kinds of bad stuff to divide us from the prize - getting rid of the Shrinking, shirking Chimp. Please stop and think before we actually do start a civil war.
Honestly..... I might have to turn some of you over my knee!
The DLC also excoriated Dean, in writing. Still waiting for that retraction. An awful lot of Dems enabled Bush to go on the Iraqi adventure, and I have yet to hear all those apologies. ABB is a scam. Every four years will be the same. It's always something to keep the two party system going. Everyone just jumps on board and blames it on dissenting voters. When are you going to hold your leadership to the same standard? Please, tell me what Dick Gephardt, Tom Daschle, or Terry McAuliffe have done for the Democratic party.
the future of the dems may be up to us.... if ABB isn't good enough for us, and we don't support the candidates of our conscience (in my case it is kucinich), then we have only ourselves to blame if the dem candidate doesn't represent us (and i can tell you the the war in iraq, the patriot act, nafta, ftaa and not showing up for important senate votes) does NOT represent me.
this about the future of our country and the planet - not about loyality to a party or a candidate. intelligent people of good will can have very different ideas about policies.
but, many of the politcos (sadly dems as well as repubs) act as if this about how to get power... and not what to do with the power (other than to try to hold on to it).
without that 20/20 foresight, its hard to know what to do. but, i think it is important to take the long term view (50-100 years) as well as the short term view (2004 pres elections).
. There is no denying that there is some truth to what you say. Look at the alternative though. 4 more years. Do you think that there will be more options of less after these with Bush2 in the White House? I'll take my chances with Kerry or whoever. Never was much on the theory of self destruction as a viable, winning strategy. Seriously, these people scare me so I just dont think much will be left of what little we have of even representative democracy when they finish. Many of us might even be in jail if there is a Bush2. Do you really wanna roll those dice from what you know of this team today?
DLC are Rethugs of the worst kind, that's what they're doing deep in the plumbing. Typical thing you get to read in the press-fascists boasting how they'll squash any semblance to popular support (and eventually with it, any resemblance to representative government) instead of a real popular servant of the people pledging to purge the ranks of lobbyists and 5Cs. It would be awful if the sun-crowned brick and billboard glories of our cities were besmirched by graffitti thus: "DLC = GOP" Or RNC, or CREEP. We have already started writing back to the cute little "Kicking Ass" missives, especially the insulting (and mindlessly deeply Rethug) one about President Sir Edmund. Senator Nader, taking a cue from Wellstone instead of Debbs, could do so much, but will he...
This better not be true. Since it ran in TNR there's a good possibility that it's a plant. Look, the rethugs will do anything, say anything to get the shrub re-selected. Let's not fall for their nasty tricks.
In the meantime, I expect to see the eventual nominee, Kerry or whoever, get down on their knees and kiss Dean's ass with humility for his service to the party. Without Dean there'd be no chance whatsoever of knocking off chimpy. And they need to embrace the Deaniacs with open arms. Only unity is going to rescue this county from the fascist robber barons.
"can't imagine that a real democrat would discredit Dean's contribution as you have - even though he was not completely successful," "You wouldnt just be trying to stir up shit now would you to make it more likely the Democrats wont have a united party"
Dean's contribution is zilch if he turned good Bush hating democrats into simpering Nader bots.
Nobody said Dean didn't get the other candidates to ramp up the rhetoric but that wasn't enough, for PHASE TWO we needed a foreign policy heavy. Who's stopping Dean from energizing his supporters for the nominee. The only reason he wouldn't is if he's a sore loser, not because he's any purer than any of them.
I hope to hell we do have a unified party. That's not a problem if Dean and supporters are grown ups and not simpering cry babies. I figure they are.
I too would need to see some good evidence of this happening before I start believing it.
Nader is just about Nader. I still believe that he was paid for 2000 by the Repugs. Why else would he disappear, make no comment after all that went down since then. He has no role in my book. One day somebody has to tell me what really happenned to that man....
*applause*
(4 legs good)
Sea changes in politics happen slowly. First we have to win the White House, then we can change the leadership. Progressive people have been fighting since the sixties to get things changed, and they have done a lot of good work. There's more to do certainly, and it will take time.
I commented on another site about the amazing energy of the Dean supporters. Your candidate may not have won, but your message is being heard. Aim your little juggernaut at the DLC. He's won enough votes and supporters to have a shot at Chairman.
Rolph - you are still a troll. By at least one definition, a troll is someone who is trying to bring our mission down by planting false or misleading posts to re-direct or confuse. You are playing a role. You know that your tone is going to piss of the Deanies so you lay out your almost reasonable ideas but use a tone that you know will offend so that you can still keep the split goin'. As I said before - Shooo, scaattt.
Well I'm no Democrat.
I'm testing this whole giving a sh*t about politics and "what's going on" out
I:
-am 28
-never voted before
-campaigned in my area
-worked at a boring "informational table" at my MI caucus for Dean handing out cookies
I would have never thought of doing what I've done even while I was agreeing to do it. Also, I don't plan on doing any of this ever again. I think i'll vote this time, ...perhaps. But I'm pretty sure I'll go take up an EverQuest type of game again, and try to find utopia there.
Dean motivated me. Dean was bigger than himself, Democrats, or an image. Dean's message is just an ideal long forgotten, and often not practiced.
Just like people say Dean is a once in a lifetime kind of candidate, I may also be a once in a lifetime kind of voter.
Both sides, chew on that. Sorry, but in my book, Dean had the goods. Dean was unquestionably an American. He's already done what he's saying he will do.
That's what interests me, consider me in the minority. I know we are off track as a country due to Bush Co, and I think Kerry will derf, mess this whole election up.
This is because Americans are voting how they are told.
Thats why I probably won't vote.
Cuz then I'm doing the same thing as everyone else, voting as I am told and not for how I think and feel.
Maybe I'll give Kerry a vote if I don't already think one of you people will do it anyhow. We'll see what motivates me. Call it what you want, but voting is also a choice as well as a right.
And a choice seems more American than an taking an order from someone.
Rolph, get a clue... arrogant, dishonest, so-called Dems like you are a major reason Dems like us get turned off to the Dem party. Add in the DLC, Kerry's dirty politicking, the DNC/Carville/Begala non-stop Dean bashing and you have major alienation. If you want a unified party stop acting like thugs and show a little appreciation. Unification of the party will be in spite of people like you.
Pleas explain how ABB is any different than the way that the GOP treats true conservatives. Just do as we say, because you have no alternative party? The DNC needs to fire up its base on its own, not depend on Bush hatred to do it for them. Bush hatred is a one trick pony that they might be able to ride through the next election, but it's going to collapse on them after that. House? Senate, anyone? 2006? We'll ABB Kerry's ass into the White House this year, but if you think that's a winning strategy, then just watch as President Kerry fights a veto-proof Senate. Good luck, short term thinkers!
Whatever public gestures Kerry makes to Dean has nothing to do w/what happens quietly to lower ranking Dean supporters. Of course, they'll be punished for going against Reactionary Wing of the Party. You can't have it both it both ways. If you want "success" of Repugs, you get that by doing the bidding of the Oligarchs & Completely Suppressing ALL Internal Dissent. That's what DLC is doing.
More importantly, we need more light & less heat here. We need more discussion of cand. records. This is first I've hrd. that in addition to Kerry, like Lieberman, opposing tough accounting stds. Clinton wanted, he didn't oppose Medicare bill, & isn't opposing Media Consolidation. That means the End of the Internet. That makes Kerry a Not Supportable candidate. Who knows other things about his record and those of other candidates. The lack of such info. in last weeks is what makes this whole exercise in the primaries seem like hideous expression of demagoguery.... Who the hell are these guys. I hope Atrios devotes more space to info on that.
jeff
Dean is just a man. It was you and people like you who made him in to something special. It was your involvement, your energy, your passion that has had such an enormous impact on the primary season.
I don't like party politics myself - I've been a registered Independent all my life. This year though, we must get rid of this dangerous adminstration. The Democratic party is the only way to accomplish that.
Kerry isn't a candidate without flaws. (Neither was Dean.) Yet he has a dedication to the enviroment, experience in federal government and a fighting spirit hidden beneath the poll pandering speeches. Read up on his background before you quit the fight. He truly was a war hero.
He has also been the bane of Repug Presidents since Nixon. He broke up Iran/Contra. He hates governments who lie and manipulate us into war. He probably saved us from at least one war the last Bush almost got us into.
Shine that light on your own face, Diogenes. You can make a difference. We here on the blogs can do it together, with or without the Democratic Leadership.
Oh please. The Democratic party taking a stand against those that oppose them? When has that ever happened?
Add me to the "hope this isn't true" contingent. I'm still for Dean until either he drops out or somebody else is selected at the convention. But the party had better watch out or it will find itself with a full-fledged revolution on its hands. At the last round of Meetups, one topic of discussion among a lot of people was "what do we do if Dean doesn't win"? Not in a defeatist sense, but in recognition of the reality that he's behind. And people were talking seriously about going out and trying to change the state party from the bottom up. These are people who aren't going to sit politely and speak when they're "supposed to". We're not going away that easily.
I will work like hell to get McCokespoon out of power.
Thats all I need to qualify me as a democrat, not a so called democrat.
I haven't acted like a thug all I said was not voting against Bush because someone's candidate didn't get ass kissed would be juvenile and prove the point they are simpering cry babies. Theres no reason to think any of the top candidates was any purer than any other ones.
To prove it's not arrogant,anybody who plans not to vote against Bush because their candidate didn't get worshipped enough should speak up.
I think that there is still time to kick some sense into the heads of anyone in Washington who is really thinking this way. Dean may not have succeeded, but Dean's dollars were a language that anyone in old politics can clearly understand. Hesreth in South Dakota and Chandler in Kentucky are probably going to win their races, and grassroots internet dollars will be a significant factor there, as well.
It shouldn't be too difficult for the internet vox populi to send the message, "Get over yourself and learn to work together" to any recalcitrant insiders.
"More importantly, we need more light & less heat here. We need more discussion of cand. records. This is first I've hrd. that in addition to Kerry, like Lieberman, opposing tough accounting stds. Clinton wanted, he didn't oppose Medicare bill, & isn't opposing Media Consolidation. That means the End of the Internet. That makes Kerry a Not Supportable candidate."
Kerry voted against the first Gulf War. His record is more antiwar than any other candidate in the race except DK.
But your right, makes more sense to get Bush again who will start more wars and cut more medicare and not oppose media consolidation.
Shorter TNR: "WAAHH! Dean got more donations than we did! WAAAHHHH!"
Screw you Rolf - go play with your RNC pals. If Kerry loses in November, don't blame it on us Deaniacs. Yes, we think we back the better candidate because we think he has a better chance of taking down Bush in November. But that is what matters - beating Bush in November. No matter who it is, no matter how bummed we are, we will all be voting for the Dem nominee. That includes Dean supporters, Clark supporters, Gephardt supporters, Kucinich supporters, Kerry supporters and according to all the Republicans that have switched parties; ex-Bush supporters too!
Just a warning: If there is one molecule of truth in this article, and this is the sentiment of the "core Democratic party", then I will let Nov 2 slip by unnoticed. Maybe the Supreme Court will have another chance to decide our future. I think a Republican win in 04 really would finish off the Democratic Party in it's current form. Then a more suitable opposition party would have a chance. And by 08 America will be on its knees begging for someone to rescue them from the Repug terror. But right now I don't believe that the Dems would be this stupid to be like this. I think this article is a Rightwing stunt.
I would hope those in the campaigns know better than to alienate the other's supporters. Democrats don't respond to discipline the way Republicans do. Dean wouldn't get elected without the votes of those who preferred Kerry or Edwards or whoever, and neither would they get elected without Dean people.
I've thought for a while now that should "ABB" fail, the keys to the Democratic party should be handed over to Dean (if he would still want them).
also don't think Rolph is being particularly unreasonable (tho' maybe a bit blunt)
"No matter who it is, no matter how bummed we are, we will all be voting for the Dem nominee. That includes Dean supporters, Clark supporters, Gephardt supporters, Kucinich supporters, Kerry supporters and according to all the Republicans that have switched parties; ex-Bush supporters too!"
If that happens Bush is out.
If Kerry or whoever loses in Nov I'll blame it on EVERYBODY who didn't vote against Bush no matter what reason because there _isn't a good enough one_.
Makes sense?
There was a post the other day about how many cia agents are in the American media.
But, how many cia agents are in the democratic party?
If the Dems lose in November it should be 'clean house.' In addition, a declaration of war against the media.
It's ideas like this that bring thoughts like Dean's 'I don't know how or who my supporters will support if I'm not the nominee' to fruition.
Changing this party and this process for the better has been a great biproduct of the Dean campaign; to spit in the face of those who are part of it is foolish and ill-thought.
I know what I'm doing as well as not doing. I'm not ignorant, arrogant, or in need of something to worship politically. And I've already thought along the lines of Rolph & tings. I'll speak up:
If I really don't have a choice, then what ideal am I voting for?
My uncle died of cancer "probably" caused by his exposure to agent orange in Vietnam. Do I care? My Granny has sold 2 pieces of property to pay for her "supplemental insurance" due to multiple health problems you tend to have when you are 80 some. Do I care?
Sure some may see this so called big picture, but I tend to try and look beyond everyone's facade and see if they believe what they are saying. You can see it in their eyes. Bush believes what he's saying, even if for the simple fact he doesn't know any better. Dean also had that look, but I happened to agree with him.
Kerry eyes give me the impression he's fought too long. Edwards looks like he has no real clue what he's getting into. Sharpton and Lieberman look like they both are trying to remember what the fight was or is about. Kucinich play's EverQuest I think, i'm still not sure what his eyes are telling me, kinda dreamy.
If you want us UnAmericanly lazy to get off our asses after an Americanly hard day, and to sit and listen to rhetoric from both and then told ABB from the side Dean was on, then I guess I'll go start volunteering to stay the night with Grammy instead of voting how I'm told on Nov 4th. My dad hates her (she had to sell his house), but at least if I go help Grammy I'll be really making a difference.
I don't put much trust in Kerry's eyes, and yes I remember watching Iran Contra when I was a kid. Those eyes want to retire. It's a complex world and a majority of the people out there will make a choice between those two sets of eyes and I already know what they will do. They will compare eyes, they don't have time for much else. And if they see what I see they won't stop watching the Simpsons on Nov 4th.
God help, and bless America. I'm exercising my hands-off choice again. Make sure you two vote ABB, in fact, I order you to. I'll be taking care of my grandma. Kerry won't change a damn thing.
First, I want to say I'm SO happy to find this website. I don't feel alone anymore.
Second, Do you know it took 72 years for women to get the vote? My point is, things have been bad for awhile and we need to start at the bottom and work back up to change things.
STEP ONE: GET RID OF BUSH!!
If you people fall for this shit, you are hopeless. Remember Dick Tuck? Rememmber Lee Atwater? Just what do you think his disciple is doing with his war chest in an uncontested primary season? Well, the very best use of that money at this point in time to is sow dissention among Democrats (who by the way happen to be more united today than they have been in decades).
So, rave on. Howard Dean is a democrat. John Edwards is a democrat. Wes Clark is a democrat and John Kerry is a democrat. In November, they and all their supporters are going to kick George Bush and his phoney band of looters out of the White House.
jeffdiogenes, if you're thinking about using your democratic right to vote by comparing candidates eyes, I implore you to stay home with your Grandma on November 4.
You and everybody like you.
Which--you might be interested to know--would be most Bush supporters . . .
jeffdiogenes, do what you want November 4. Stay away from the polls on November 2 . . .
My bad. That date should be burned in my memory by now . . .
I think there will be a healthy, bitter discussion coming up soon. I guess it's already happening - it's just not very useful. What are the benefits to voting for Kerry vs. Bush vs. Third Party?
There's got to be a better way to send that message. Any politicos out there with ideas on how to make the DNC listen?
Well, here are a couple of ideas:
1) Dean could, after dropping out (if that happens ... we’re bitter-end optimists on that one) dedicate (if this is legal) his unused campaign funds as seed money to creating an alternative organization to the DLC, an organization devoted to remaking the party as a real choice.
2) Those who live in states that Kerry would either easily win or easily lose could cast write-in votes for Dean in November as a protest if the hard feelings persist (and given what happened in IA and NH, Kerry better start mending fence ASAP).
3) Dean supporters could focus their efforts, as some already are, on winning Congressional and Senate seats. If you have a significant legislative bloc that's beholden to you, and that bloc starts to be what makes the difference in, say, retaking the House or Senate, either Terry McAuliffe and Al From kiss your ass or they're out on theirs.
4) Finally, as Sally suggested and as we hope many Dean supporters continue to do, stay involved in the party. You can’t just be an enthusiastic fan and hope to do anything about how the team plays. People who work at HQ have a lot more say in shaping policy.
And maybe run for something yourself.
Of course the point we missed was that while there can be no doubt that American-hating DLC is Rethug, so is The New Republican, and it is pretty obvious (as others have noted) their purpose here is to try to beg Nevsky to move his front backwards. Fucking 5Cs.
Yeah, I'll vote for John Kerry over George W. Bush in a frickin' heartbeat.
But I've begun to think that the physical requirements for becoming a "professional D.C. Democrat" include having your spinal column removed and your bloodstream thoroughly cleansed of all traces of testosterone before heading into battle with the GOP.
And now this. "Yeah, let's demonstrate our own selfish immaturity and retaliate politically against our own base, for even daring to presume that they could act so uppity. That'll show 'em."
Say it ain't so, Chair McAuliffe. Otherwise, this is one Democrat whose view of your Beltway Democratic courtiers will ring eerily similar to Benito Mussolini's well-known observation about his own Italian Army during World War II: "The human material we have to work with is useless, worthless."
IMO, if this report is true (it may just be chest-beating by those without real power) it is being circulated for the sole purpose of putting pressure on Dean to end his candidacy ASAP.
To get some historical perspective on the DLC “new Democrat” modus operandi, I strongly recommend reading this href="http://www.prospect.org/print/V4/15/faux-
j.html ">1993 article from the American Prospect while it’s still online.
link http://www.prospect.org/print/V4.../15/faux-
j.html
My own view is the Party seems really tense. The evident high stress behind ABB and the loyalty pledges and swarms and what have you since summer is ridiculous.
They've made ABB campaigns in and of themselves
such an offensive stressor, that well, one starts wondering.
Next few weeks and months will be interesting. The long haul first to convention then to election is worrisome.
My advice to the party and the presumptive:
run like hell and figure if they campaign well enough, hard enough, authentically enough, that ABB within the party and the various left factions, follows.
They have the candidate they evidently wanted, so make it work.
But that isn't the sense I get from the smell of fear off the party and the various leaders. They've beaten ABB til it is black and blue, and still they beat it. So, I wonder what is coming from them that they are so worried.
1993 article
sorry
Green yet?
I wish someone would get Pat Buchanan to run...
Buchanan hates Bush doesn't he? He should run.
RE: tings -- "[Sen. John Kerry] hates governments who lie and manipulate us into war." (8:21pm post)
I'm sure John Kerry does.
However, that still doesn't explain why he cynically allowed himself to be deceived by George W. Bush, and manipulated into voting in favor of a war resolution that he spoke out against both publicly and repeatedly prior to the Senate vote on October 11, 2002.
I'll support Sen. Kerry as the nominee in the general election. What choice do I have? And that's the problem -- the story of the DLC and the Beltway Democrats has been their repeated presentation of false choices to the party's rank-and-file.
Somehow, I can't help feeling that we're missing a golden opportunity to do so much better than what we're going to end up with.
jeff
You're being pretty touchy, aren't you? Seems like you have a tendency to pout when things don't go your way. Maybe you should ask your Grandma about living history sometime, and the struggles this country has been through for civil rights and a decent living wage.
Progress has been made, and will be made again. It's not up to the politicians - it's up to us like it's always been.
Stay home and pout about losing the primary battle. Thank god there's not too many Dean supporters like you. Otherwise we'll lose the more important war. ABB
RE: renato -- "I wish someone would get Pat Buchanan to run."
Pat Buchanan? Talk about your false choices ...
I proudly voted for Nader in 2000, and was willing to vote for Dean this year in light of some of his positions.
But, ultimately, Nader was right . . . both parties are controlled by elites not responsible to the people. elites who run the country for the benefit of the rich.
I WON'T hold my nose and vote for Kerry, and I hope other peace-loving people who want this country to move in a new direction won't either.
Ordered to vote. Ordered to stay with Granny on whatever the day in November is.
Whatever. Don't kiss my ass, Dean's, or anyone else's. Vote how you feel or think, because it's your fight. Call me a baby, but I don't feel like voting for the promotion of half the problem.
I just saw an ideal in Dean that I think the politicians and their junkies have forgotten. We aren't getting anywhere in the long term voting ABB. Until the other 50% of America has something believable to believe in, you won't win any converts talking trash about those of us who saw a reason to care last summer.
ABB just sounds too much like more party propaganda, i'll tune it out. We are not heard by either side.
Wake me up for the riots.
Sorry, and don't worry about me and the 50%, we don't vote anyhow.
"Amen!"
..right?
The establishment Democrats and DLC'r types don't even want the progressives to have a place at the table. They don't even want them to be at the childrens table. They however do want them to be the slave labor in the kitchen.
Fuck them. You know what mofos - if you are too fucking ashamed of us then I am going to pretend that I am too ashamed to vote for you .
4 more years of Bush? oops. Don't blame the Deanie babies.
SullyWatch,
Thank you, those are all wonderful suggestions. It's funny how many people on this thread would have us believe that voting ABB and supporting systemic change are mutually exclusive. I'm firmly committed to both. I'm not willing to spend the rest of my life just voting for the lesser of two evils, but the last three years have convinced me it's not worth ceding an election to the greater evil just to make a point.
The important thing is unity to rid us of this dangerous administration, and I think everyone understands that. And I think that anyone inclined to act against Dean will be reminded of this fact.
I believe that Dean, for all his accomplishments, was a flawed vessel. He did an amazing job of getting a lot of people to give small amounts of money and large amounts of energy, time, and devotion. But he couldn't connect to the mainstream of the Democratic party, who were therefore afraid he would be even less able to connect to the general electorate.
To the extent that ninnies in the DLC or elsewhere are threatening to disrespect Dean and spurn the corps of dedicated anti-Bushies he can motivate, they deserve to be slapped down. But conversely, Dean has been making noises about taking his ball and going home, and that is wrong, too.
Barring a transformative event, Kerry will be the nominee in a couple of weeks. I think it's important for Dean to reach out to him then, and I think it's important for Kerry to reach out to Dean then, too.
One solution I'd love to see: Dean shoud get McCauliffe's job. The job is partly about fundraising, but I hope everyone has been taking notes about how a few comments by McCauliffe have lead to the breaking open of the "aWol" story. Dean is clearly great as a critic of the administration, and Dean is obviously now a legend in fundraising. And this or a similar post would clearly show the Dean is central to the party, and that the party is firmly around Dean. Even though he won't be the nominee.
You're the one who made the statements about staying home, and taking care of your grandmother. We just agreed with you; we didn't order you.
I told you to stay home and pout if you want. I hope to change the minds of reasonable people. I can't change the mind of someone who either puts his own personal hurt feelings above the good of the country, or is an operative bent on causing trouble by posting on progressive blogs.
My comment above was directed to jeff.
My bad.
RE: tings -- "Thank god there's not too many Dean supporters like you. Otherwise we'll lose the more important war. ABB"
And hopefully, there aren't too many "Kerry supporters" like you.
You might try being just a wee bit magnanimous toward those whose support Sen. Kerry will most definitely need come November.
Otherwise, I can assure you that your immature digs at disappointed "Deaniacs" -- i.e., "You're being pretty touchy, aren't you? ... Stay home and pout about losing the primary battle." -- will do Sen. Kerry and the rest of us committed Democrats absolutely no good.
I've read most of your postings, tings, and I agree with a lot of what you've said. But there's a big difference between winning, and winning with class. And winning with class means not ridiculing potential supporters like Jeff -- who shared a piece of his soul with you and other posters to this blog. He has as much a right to his feelings as you do to yours.
So before you continue to smugly assume that disaffected Democrats like Jeff have nowhere else to turn on Election Day, you best remember this:
They don't have to go anywhere. They can just stay home. And at this stage of the game, with the stakes so frighteningly high, we really can't afford to take for granted ANY potential supporters.
"it's funny how many people on this thread would have us believe that voting ABB and supporting systemic change are mutually exclusive."
Bethm we can argue whether ABB and supporting systemic change are mutually exclusive, but you can't deny they are contradictory.
Politics has to be based on an intellectual critique of the society, there has to be a vision of what the US should look like.
And, with the exception of women's issues, the continuity between the two parties and, yes, Clinton and Bush, far overshadow the differences.
It looks to me the tnr is really losing creds first with its lulu endorsement of the most rightie candidate who did not even crack one win in the whole slate till he dropped out, and now with this kind of breathless analysis, it looks like Franklin is reading way too much into minor primary differences. Ivo Daalder and Susan Rice are fine, I am really glad they signed on when they did because the campaign did need some good foreign policy input and people are way too mature to get petty with folks who have been good solid Dem-affirming values folks.
Everybody is gonna be just fine, Dems are pretty good at big tent stuff, the unions will be fine, Moseley Braun will be fine, even Dean will be fine, if he concentrates on Dem-affirming values folks and doesn’t go the Paddy Buchanan way, which right now the mood is really strongly for Unity and affirming Dem values.
Unlike Paddy, Dean has been a Governor and he has worked in a profession where there is a lot of work with diverse kind of folks, so I can see where the centrifugal forces may be there, but there is no outcome from that, he needs to start signing on and becoming strongly Dem affirming and look for where his position is gonna be affirming and supporting the party.
Basically in politics it is an issue of show us who you are, who you used to be is important to know where folks are coming from but who you continue to be is the real important deal.
And basically the examples Franklin cites are very diverse and most of them fall well within the range of minor primary differences and people will expect that everyone show strong Dem affirming values. If any individuals are showing bratty tendencies or craftiness or whatever, then of course, others are not going to be saintly. In politics more than anywhere else, every little thing is viewed with great (albeit humorous and ironic) cynicism and skepticism, so folks like Kamarck may have their work cut out to regain some of their bonafides but others who have been much less partisan and much more universally Dem affirming, will slip right back into where they have always been.
.....
With Kamarck, I really don’t know if she lost it or was way 2 cute by half because she was even boasting at one point of her Super-delegate status and making way 2 cute faces and folks were like what is she thinking. So on both scores, whether she is just plain not smart enough or 2 smart for her own good (or for Dems good) it looks her probationary status may be a wee bit longer than other folks who were basically on a roll of help the current candidate and do the best you can, which will be seen much more understandingly and comfortingly by others.
.....
I'm not bitter, I'm just not obviously part of this fight; so I'm not, what's different? I still haven't really heard a logical reason voting how were told gets America anywhere.
Oh and I read both self professed left and right wing blogs. And yes, admit it, you are bored and posting like I am, let's not go there.
I don't mean to discourage anyone, but I believe my status here will be downgraded to troll feeder now for stating what I think about all this.
But I doubt it.
I still get to state my flame-ready opinion. At least I feel I respect yours, your right to fight whatever it is ABB stands for because I see it as rhetoric and so will most people.
Peace man. Really.
The modern Democrats have become a private club, disinterested in any voices but their own.
In short, they're GOP lite. It's been this way since at least Clinton's '96 campaign, when he was allegedly trying to push the Democratic Party "back to the center". Hell, in debates with Bob Dole, he didn't even have the balls to call himself a liberal. I voted for Clinton in '96, but I didn't like it. I feel the same way about Kerry (I'd like to know how, when his campaign seemed dead in the water up until about a month or so ago, he became the front-runner). Now, here's this story about how Democratic Party "insiders" are talking about how they're going to punish Dean supporters? Shit! There are times when I almost feel that the Democrats don't deserve to be in power (this is one of those times)
This is yet another reason that John Kerry is not getting my vote. ABB my ass.
Donald
I'm not a Kerry supporter, a Dean supporter or a member of the Democratic Party. I support my country. Jeff made some replies to my early statements of sympathy and support that I took exception to; I was merely replying to them.
If I used too strong a language, and let my Calpundit troll attack fatigue show, then please accept my apology.
However, I've talked to many Dean supporters. In fact I post quite often on a small blog dedicated to Dean supporters. I have offered them my sympathies, and watched them turn around to fight the good fight.
Jeff's level of pique seems a little high to me, and it was obvious, from his reply to my original statement that he wants to take offense. So I responded with a little bit of a sting. Sue me. I'm blunt.
Jeff
I agree - peace dude. Do what feels right to you, that's all I'm saying.
gene214: "There are times when I almost feel that the Democrats don't deserve to be in power (this is one of those times)"
Yeah, I know...as bad as Bush has made things, it isn't as if he had to fight a hardnosed opposition party- like ANY Dem President will (oh the GOP will be PISSED if Dear Leader goes down).
But I think about Bush getting to name Supreme Court justices, or continue rolling back things like the Clean Water Act- these are things that will affect the country for years after Bush goes back to Crawford. Think about a Supreme Court with Chief Justice Scalia, Thomas and 2 or 3 others of their ilk. Does anyone else remember their American History, and how much trouble the Supremes gave FDR when he got the opportunity to implement a progressive agenda? It wasn't pretty...
I could go on, but everybody knows what I mean...I just can't get behind that "let's wait for the riots" idea- too many people and things will suffer needlessly in the meantime.
What leverage are we supposed to use against this kind of thing except the threat of spoilage or non-participation? It just amazes me that the party establishment can behave like this and it is the Naderites and now the Deaniacs who will be accused of divisiveness.
I'm sorry, I won't support this shit. If enough people react in this way, the party leadership will have only itself to blame.
we can argue whether ABB and supporting systemic change are mutually exclusive, but you can't deny they are contradictory.
Can and do. Systemic change is not going to be won, or even significantly advanced by the results of a single election, but it could be seriously hampered by one if it means another four years of BushCo. They've already brought gerrymandering and corporate cronyism to a whole new level, and I shudder to think what will happen if Bush gets a chance to appoint SC judges.
the continuity between the two parties and, yes, Clinton and Bush, far overshadow the differences.
Looking at the economy, deficits, recent wars, occupation, and and the sad state of international affairs, I have trouble understanding how you could reach such a conclusion. I don't hold Clinton blameless, but I think Bush did far more harm in three years than Clinton did in eight. We on the left deserve some of the blame as well. When Clinton was elected, I think a lot of people were just so relieved that the long Reagan-Bush nightmare was over, we just let things slide. The mood is different this time around. We're even more eager to see the end of this Bush, but that doesn't mean we'll slide back into complacancy when he's gone. For me and others, a Kerry victory won't mark the end, but the beginning of the fight.
I'm going on record now, as should others: if there is a campaign against heretical Democrats, I will either stay home or vote for Nader. ABB is not a license to purge. Those who think they can win me over by hectoring can fuck off. Start hectoring the party establishment,
Goddamn the fucking Clinton-bots.
Goddamn the fucking Clinton-bots.
Nickname, I have to agree with you. I mean, what does it say about the current state of the Democratic party when, faced with the possiblity of actually beating the crap out of Bush, the first instinct of the Party establishment is to start making a list of those they're going to punish for (gasp!)actually supporting the candidate of their choice? Where does that leave the Democratic Party (ostensibly the party of inclusion)? No, a Democratic Party by and for the "insiders" and "beltway bandits" bears no resemblence to the Democratic Party I've always believed in.
Nickname,
Don't stay home. The only message that sends is, "Do whatever you want, I don't care." If you're really determined to spend your vote sending a message, send one that could conceivably be understood by casting a protest vote.
As for my own little vote, it will be an arrow aimed directly at Bush's heart. Nobody can stop me from voting ABB, not even the DNC itself.
Why are you all worried about the machinations of the DLC and DNC instead of just worrying about voting for THE BEST CANDIDATE ON ELECTION DAY??
Never seen so many people looking for a reason to throw a hissy fit and shoot themselves in the foot.
Nickname,
I got just one word for your posts: Word!
and Beth,
seems it's not just Rethugs that rely on the politics of fear - that's all I can think of when I hear "ABB"...
----I could go on, but everybody knows what I mean...I just can't get behind that "let's wait for the riots" idea- too many people and things will suffer needlessly in the meantime.----
I don't know sounds like an OK idea to me. Who cares who suffers? I'M RICH.
The only message that sends is, "Do whatever you want, I don't care."
No, the message that it sends is that that I don't want either party as presently constituted in power. As to messages, you might send devote some of your impassioned speeches for unity to the Party leadership who clearly would rather retain power in the party than win an election. So be it. I'm done being a patsy. I'd rather leave the country. I've had it with both of them. And I'm tired of a liberal culture that kisses the ass of right-leaning soccer moms and Dixie Democrats but heaps shit upon true progressives who, through it all, foolishly cling to some principles.
I hope the pricks finally backslide on abortion, the one remaining deal-breaker it seems and increasingly the only issue where they truly, in policy terms, distinguish themselves. Then the ABB crowd, who can only be accurately described as crackpot pragmatists, will know how it feels, and we can finally run these pricks out of town.
Why are you all worried about the machinations of the DLC and DNC instead of just worrying about voting for THE BEST CANDIDATE ON ELECTION DAY??
Never seen so many people looking for a reason to throw a hissy fit and shoot themselves in the foot.
Worth repeating. Well said, Anon.
seems it's not just Rethugs that rely on the politics of fear - that's all I can think of when I hear "ABB"...
dm, If you can't hear the difference between paranoid fear-mongering and predictions based in recent experience, I suggest you get your hearing checked.
The point is, Beth, the message needs to be sent now. It's up to the party leadership to receive it. Unequivocal ABB is inviting arrogance from the party leadership and as Atrios' post indicates, it's getting a predictable result. The threat of spoilage is the only leverage we have. I don't want to use it, but I will. They need to realize that this time around, to retain power in the Party, the Clinton-bots have to win the election. Because if they lose, they WILL be blamed and they will be driven out.
Why are you all worried about the machinations of the DLC and DNC instead of just worrying about voting for THE BEST CANDIDATE ON ELECTION DAY??
Because the best candidate won't be among the choices. As ever.
i got a live call for kerry tonight(WAY TO LATE). and i told her no I would NOT vote for him in the primary and i told her why IWR. and she went on, but i cut her off. HE SHOULD HAVE FUCKIN KNOWN..
but if he wins. i will vote for him and HE BETTER NOT FUCK THIS UP.
I shudder to think what will happen if Bush gets a chance to appoint SC judges
and that's not fear? guess i'm blind as well as def, not too menchun stoopid - guess you called it, Beth
Atilla the neocon:
The last three Republicans to win the presidency were a faux Southerner, an East Coast elitist/faux Southerner and a West Coast actor/governor. The two to win before that were a West Coast ex-veep who couldn't get elected governor and a Midwesterner general with no political experience. Find the pattern in that, dumpweed. The Demo winners in my lifetime working backwards are a Southern governor, a Southern governor, a real Southern senator/veep, and the ultimate East Coast elite senator. Political ability (and enough money) gets the job done, period; history is an unreliable predictor in presidential politics. Kerry is light years beyond Dukakis or Mondale politically.
TNR has a free direct link to the article. Here it goes, for the interested:
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?
pt=I2Aygkdgy3gJ5REFNboWuB==
Nickname and others: If -- and it's a huge IF -- Dean is sent packing by the DNC then that's a big mistake, but not one that will be rectified by handing the country over to the right wing for another four years of suicidal madness. The ball is in Dean's court now; he has to reach out to the party that he's been savaging. Not pretty, but it's the truth. He gave Kerry and the party the wakeup it needed, but Dean pretty much beat himself, as unpleasant as that may seem. He was vulnerable because he is vulnerable. If you want to leave the country fine; it's damned tempting. but don't expect me to like what you leave behind with your overwrought abstention and don't expect me not to put the blame squarely on your head(s) if Bush wins again. And please stop with this utter bullshit that Dean has the better chance of beating Bush. You guys are beyond delusional on this point: he doesn't even beat other Democrats. Grow up!
I frankly don't think it would take much for him to fix things; and I would love to see him in the Senate as the John McCain-style scold from the left that the party definitely needs.
Knock, knock, knockin on heavens's door.
You can hear it, and learn from it; or ignore the signs, laugh at mortality, and scream at the fates when they come to get you early.
Yes. Choice number 2 is the perennial fave.
Greg,
Thanks for posting it. Upon reading it, it really seems like the whole thing boils down to this one sentence:
One ex-Clintonite says, "This town is famous for its opportunism, but it's a terrible mistake to turn on your friends and join someone else's bandwagon."
And it really seems like the payback is largely confined to the foreign-policy and labor sectors (in the latter, for perfectly understandable reasons ... leadership like Jerry McEntee gives unions a bad name). Maybe Dean's better off without some of these fair-weather friends ... can you imagine them pulling this in the middle of a first term?
I'm coming in way late but I was utterly appalled by the TNR article. If it had been on Fox I would have assumed that it was deliberate provocation. And with TNR, it's hard to be absolutely sure that it wasn't -- I'm firmly convinced that Peretz would rather destroy the Democratic Party than see his side lose control of it.
I'm ABB all the way and didn't pick sides in the primaries, but this is the kind of thing that I've hated about the Democrats for years. If Clinton was involved he lost another couplke of points with me.
Lies from the Lying Liars. While there are probably some corporate Dems pissed about the demographic they DON'T control, the fact is that Dean's campaign is very much alive, and Dean will arrive at the Convention with a LOT of delegates. So this year's convention may be the first real convention in quite a few decades. I welcome that.
This bit about blaming Kerry for his war vote is too far ridiculous for words. The PUS has run war policy FOREVER. Name one war by the Congress! It's a continuing flaw in our Republic, and it isn't some new thing with that one vote. Blame Kerry for not giving a single public speech calling Bxco the coup it is!
As a protester, I get to listen to a lot of politically-active people talk about their idealism. But for bloggers, sitting on their cans, to whine that the world isn't changing fast enough for their taste, and so screw the Dem party...well, that's just plain absurd. WHAT is the option? Philosophy and phallatio? Self-righteous, too pure to votism?
Get behind the Governor, because the progressive movement looks a lot like centrism in the context of a coup. Kerry ends up being the candidate, that's just fine, but we have power, and we will USE power. And the New Retard writers are circlefucking dogs who wish us ill, every one.
"This ain't no party. This ain't no disco..."
Grow up people. We are facing the closest thing to fascists that this country has ever seen. And we're bitching about who didn't get asked to the prom? Get a grip.
This Dean supporter will happily support the nominee. And after Bush is back in Texas, pulling tequila bottles out of his ass, THEN we'll have the luxury of taking our party back.
We should learn from the right. When the establishment GOP turned them away, they didn't quit the game or walk away. They organized and took over the damn party. Let's do the same.
I second the poster above who suggested that Dean get the DNC chairmanship. Especially after an article like this, it will be very important to reassure people who went out on a limb to support Dean won't be targeted.
But I also think he'd be great. He's got good name recognition, draws big crowds, big donations, and inspires loyalty in a segment of left of center voters that's been fed up with the party establishment. And he has good street cred on fiscal responsibility. Can you imagine him hammering back at Ed Gillespie? How good he'd be at floating talking points?
And if he got into policy disagreements with other party members and officials, so much the better. I'm getting goosebumps imagining non-election-year news cycles where the top political stories are on Democrats arguing about just how liberal our policies should be. As opposed to the current state of affairs where it's often Republicans arguing with the Heritage Foundation about how conservative everything should be.
All I think needs to be said about TNR is that they endorsed Lieberman, and that their offices should be razed and burned.
Also, the main reason Dean isn't winning is because the establishment was more concerned with thrashing him than with standing up to the Republicans, and you're somewhere between 'delusional' and just ignorant if you think otherwise. For christ's sakes, if you want to call someone names, go find a Kerry blog where a few months ago people were all but calling Dean the Beast of Babylon and the destroyer of the Democratic Party.
If we get another 4 years of Bush, don't blame the only candidate who actually cared about beating Bush, rather than holding onto power within the Democratic Party.
I'll vote for Kerry. For christ's sakes, I don't want another 4 years of G.W.B! However, after the way Dean was treated, the dirty politics behind his demise (i.e. scaring the electorate with that despicable Osama ad), and if that article has any ounce of truth, I will seriously consider switching parties from the lesser of the two evils to Independent.
I'll vote for Kerry. For christ's sakes, I don't want another 4 years of G.W.B! However, after the way Dean was treated, the dirty politics behind his demise (i.e. scaring the electorate with that despicable Osama ad), and if that article has any ounce of truth, I will seriously consider switching parties from the lesser of the two evils to Independent.
I will vote for Kerry. And then I will run myself, if I have to, to take the fucking party back.
This MUST be a joke!! Daalder bracing for retribution for working for Dean??! Daalder is such a "firebrand" that he couldn't even bring himself to discuss neocon influence in his book America Unbound except to reject the idea. "Heaven forfend, profound NEOCON influence in our national and foreign policy?!! Nooooo....".
If this somewhat addled but well-meaning fellow is going to get the shaft, that speaks volumes about the sheer arrogance and pettiness out there.
But like the rest of you, I'm not going to take dictation from a party whose DLC decreed that Dean was from the extreme left. (Tells you where Evan Bayh is from, doesn't it).
So maybe the next time you get that fund-raising appeal from the DLC you'll do what I do: send in a penny and a letter explaining why the DLC doesn't represent me!!!
P.S. They don't like it if you point out that many congressional Democrats share some of the blame for the Iraq war. That's strictly taboo, you understand.
The New Republic backed Joe Leiberman.
The article is nothing but shitty gossip that should be posted on the girls bathroom wall. Yes GIRLS bathroom wall TNR.
Folks, lets remember, all politics is local. Get rid of Bush, YES. Get rid of snotty Dems who'd make better Repugs- work locally and get rid of everyone who represents YOU who has even the whiff of being a repug.
School Board elections
City Council & Mayor
County Officials
Sheriffs
State Reps
Governors
Congressman
Senators
Long long road. Thats how the nutty right wing does it. So lets all concentrate on it before we're shuttled back to the 19th century when women didn't have the right to vote.
(i.e. scaring the electorate with that despicable Osama ad)
The world is not ready for REAL truth.
Suddenly Kerry is the chosen son? WTF!
Kerry is a Multi-millionaire, eastern-liberal, skull and bones, yale grad. He is still more righteous than GWB and infinitely more intelligent.
don't expect me not to put the blame squarely on your head(s) if Bush wins again.
I would expect nothing else from the likes of you. And I don't give a fuck just as I'm sure that you don't care how little I think of you.
THEN we'll have the luxury of taking our party back.
Would the chaperones in the party (the ones always yelling "Grow Up People" to their more principled comrades) explain their plan for 'taking the party back.' How do you take a party from a corporate-lubricated junta that brooks no opposition, busily chops away at anything resembling a grass root and which can always rely on a rather large rabble of hectoring half-wits to support them no matter how many principles and people they piss on.
So Beth and the rest -- the plan please? For taking back the party, I mean.
We should learn from the right. When the establishment GOP turned them away, they didn't quit the game or walk away. They organized and took over the damn party. Let's do the same.
You left out an important part: they also didn't spend four years blaming Perot and the people who voted for him.
"My own little vote will be an arrow aimed directly at Bush's heart."
Beth, you can't aim at something that doesn't exist.
Any such retribution would be exceptionally stupid. Given the way Dean has been treated by the Party oligarchs already, do you want to push him further to endorse Ralph Nader?
I guess this means that if Kerry's the nominee, the onus will be on him to publicly demonstrate inclusiveness towards such Dean-backers.
If he doesn't, I guess it puts Nader back into play, eh? Fair enough.
I dunno if it's gossip or a planted story, but the ball's in Kerry's court to extend his hand to the Deansters. Otherwise, the schism in the Dem party will set it back another decade or two. And if the story's true, the party needs that remedial lesson.
Kerry's (and the DLC's) problem with Dean and the progressives is they are reformers demanding a tiny slice of the pie.
In exchange for what amounts to little more than lip service from the established party hacks, the progressives offer a broader party base in one of the first base-on-base contests in years AND a truely grass-roots fundraising machine. It's clearly on the table if Kerry and the DLC reply with just a smidgen of lip service to progressives. Everyone knows this is empty lip service, but there are some forms that need to be observed.
And the reply is a rerun of Gore/Lieberman exclusionary attacks on fellow democrats.
Thanks guys. Maybe Walter Kark was totally on point in "Indispensible Enemies" and the DLC has more in common with the Repos than with the rest of the Democratic Party...
God, I hate presidential politics.
Sorry I can't type. That should have been:
Walter Karp's "Indispensible Enemies."
My motto:
Win or go home.
Reality is far too harsh to think otherwise.
For as long as I've been voting, which is 25 years, and with very few exceptions, it has been choosing the lesser of two evils in every election. However, this is the first time in my life the choice has been so dangerously compelling.
I'm a Draft Clarker. In November, I will suck it up and do the right thing. For the sake of the world.
it's not worth ceding an election to the greater evil just to make a point.
It's not about making a point!!! It's using the little leverage you have. Point your little self-righteous finger where it belongs: at a corrupt, ruthless Democratic Leadership that is deliberately disempowering the base.
I'm so fucking sick of you self-righteous little twerps who feel so fucking superior because your deal-breakers are different from mine. Tell me Beth, would you be talking about unity if the Dems decided to reverse themselves on abortion? Is there anything at all you feel so strongly about that a reversal from the Democrats would be unforgivable? Would you still be puking up banalities about unity and greater evils that we've all gotten so sick of hearing for the past 4 years? In other words, do you have any principles at all?
Do you know any history? Of say, who first got the Patriot Act rolling? Huh? Who signed the Telecommunications Act, the greatest giveaway of public assets in American history? On whose watch did wage differentials explode? On whose watch did this country sell more weapons to more countries? On whose watch did more black young men go to prison for non-violent offenses than at any time in history? On whose watch were more prisons built to house them? On whose watch were Serbian hospitals and bridges DELIBERATELY bombed? On whose watch was a genocide in Rwanda deliberately ignored? On whose watch were half a million Iraqi children starved by sanctions?
You want to change the party? Change it now. Convince the party leadership that there are people out here who are so fed up they're ready to spoil and that if they do you will hold the party leadership's unbending contempt for the base responsible.
There's gotta be leverage for the base. ABB is carte blanche. I don't write blank checks, particularly to provably unprincipled swine.
I WON'T hold my nose and vote for Kerry, and I hope other peace-loving people who want this country to move in a new direction won't either.
How's that plan of action going to move the country in a new direction? And what new direction would that be?
____
Kerry's (and the DLC's) problem with Dean and the progressives is they are reformers demanding a tiny slice of the pie.
Dean isn't a progressive candidate on policy -- he's a centrist Democrat -- but he is a reformer in rousing individual voter and contributor participation in the process.
Many, many progressives favor candidates other than the good Dr. Dean, but the Demcratic Party machine still owes Dean a debt of gratitude and more.
As a D.C. insider I can tell you that it is true that many among the Democratic establishment and many people on the Kerry campaign absolutely hate Dean. They hate Dean for the same reason the Republicans hate Dean - because Dean threatened to expose their bullshit.
Most of the influential Washington insiders have been peddling weakness and defeatism for years, claiming that it was necessary in the face of Republican strength. This became an unfalsifiable and self-fulfilling prophecy, but one which proved quite lucrative for the establishment prophets, who could always construe every loss as confirmation of their defeatist strategies. The weaker we became as a result of their cultivated timidity, the more they could claim to be hard-headed realists.
The few times any Democrat did show some balls (e.g. Clinton fighting Gingrich, Clinton fighting impeachment, Gore getting tough after the convention) it paid off nicely. But the Democratic defeatists (with assists from the media) ignored that evidence and contined to peddle their philosophy of capitulation and collaboration.
This vicious circle culminated in the last several years as the Republicans publicly humiliated the Democrats with their absurd sex impeachment, transparent theft of a presidential election, robbery of the public Treasury, and perpetration of the WMD hoax. The Democratic insiders were notable for the lack of reposnse to these provocations.
Throughout Bush's term the Democratic Defeatists continued to warn us knowingly that questioning Bush's tax cuts or questioning Bush's obvious WMD hoax would be political suicide. The Defeatists carried the day at a cost of trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.
But Howard Dean exposed the defeatist philosophy by doing the opposite of what the defeatists recommended. he called Bush's bluffs on both tax cuts and Iraq. Instead of political suicide, it turned out to be political pay dirt. It vaulted an unknown Dean into first place in the Democratic nomination race. The evident power of this new toughness was obvious to everyone and all the other Democratic candidates followed Dean's lead and adopted the new aggressive strategy. This new aggresiveness has also coincided with a serious slide in Bush's poll numbers.
But now everyone knows: tough Democrats win. The Democratic party will be forever in Howard Dean's debt for showing us how to get up off our knees and fight back. Sure the establishment Democrats and the media toppled Dean in the end, but it was not because of his tough positions. They did it the old fashioned way: they concentrated their fire on Dean and slandered him, Gore-style, with the now admittedly overplayed scream speech.
However, none of this should mean that Deaniacs don't support Kerry in the general. I'm as disappointed as you are that Dean probably won't make it. The beauty of Dean was that his success promised to bring about two revolutions: a revolution in American
As a D.C. insider I can tell you that it is true that many among the Democratic establishment and many people on the Kerry campaign absolutely hate Dean. They hate Dean for the same reason the Republicans hate Dean - because Dean threatened to expose their bullshit.
Most of the influential Washington insiders have been peddling weakness and defeatism for years, claiming that it was necessary in the face of Republican strength. This became an unfalsifiable and self-fulfilling prophecy, but one which proved quite lucrative for the establishment prophets, who could always construe every loss as confirmation of their defeatist strategies. The weaker we became as a result of their cultivated timidity, the more they could claim to be hard-headed realists.
The few times any Democrat did show some balls (e.g. Clinton fighting Gingrich, Clinton fighting impeachment, Gore getting tough after the convention) it paid off nicely. But the Democratic defeatists (with assists from the media) ignored that evidence and contined to peddle their philosophy of capitulation and collaboration.
This vicious circle culminated in the last several years as the Republicans publicly humiliated the Democrats with their absurd sex impeachment, transparent theft of a presidential election, robbery of the public Treasury, and perpetration of the WMD hoax. The Democratic insiders were notable for the lack of reposnse to these provocations.
Throughout Bush's term the Democratic Defeatists continued to warn us knowingly that questioning Bush's tax cuts or questioning Bush's obvious WMD hoax would be political suicide. The Defeatists carried the day at a cost of trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.
But Howard Dean exposed the defeatist philosophy by doing the opposite of what the defeatists recommended. he called Bush's bluffs on both tax cuts and Iraq. Instead of political suicide, it turned out to be political pay dirt. It vaulted an unknown Dean into first place in the Democratic nomination race. The evident power of this new toughness was obvious to everyone and all the other Democratic candidates followed Dean's lead and adopted the new aggressive strategy. This new aggresiveness has also coincided with a serious slide in Bush's poll numbers.
But now everyone knows: tough Democrats win. The Democratic party will be forever in Howard Dean's debt for showing us how to get up off our knees and fight back. Sure the establishment Democrats and the media toppled Dean in the end, but it was not because of his tough positions. They did it the old fashioned way: they concentrated their fire on Dean and slandered him, Gore-style, with the now admittedly overplayed scream speech.
However, none of this should mean that Deaniacs don't support Kerry in the general. I'm as disappointed as you are that Dean probably won't make it. The beauty of Dean was that his success promised to bring about two revolutions: a revolution in American
...However, none of this should mean that Deaniacs don't support Kerry in the general. I'm as disappointed as you are that Dean probably won't make it. The beauty of Dean was that his success promised to bring about two revolutions: a revolution in American government by booting Bush and a stil much needed revolution within the Democratic party to get some spine and some self-respect.
We may not get our double revolution, but the revolution that deposes Bush is something that we desperately need and something that Kerry can deliver. We can fight it out over how the Democratic party proceeds later, but right now we MUST defeat Bush. Kerry is not a bad guy at all -- far from it. He's just not going to lead the revolution within the Demjocratic party. Nevertheless, precisely because Howard Dean has already forced all the other candidates to grow spines, A Kerry win would still go a long way toward promoting the much needed revolution within the Democratic party.
Vote for Kerry. We'll kill off the DLC and the rest of the collaborationst, defeatist, Vichy Democrats later.
I'm so fucking sick of you self-righteous little twerps who feel so fucking superior because your deal-breakers are different from mine. Tell me Beth, would you be talking about unity if the Dems decided to reverse themselves on abortion?
The NRA is my dealbreaker but would have voted for Dean with a clothespin on my nose. ABB.
Publius"...A Kerry win would still go a long way toward promoting the much needed revolution within the Democratic party."
Not sure how you come to that conclusion; rather, the much needed revolution must go forward despite a Kerry win (the personification of the corporate-bought, politically expedient DLC-er).
AnneW:
A Kerry win helps because he will win having used Dean's strategy of taking Bush on rather than the defeatist strategy of capitulation. Kerry is talking tough now (thanks to Dean) and his win would show that you win through strength not weakness.
I also think you're being too hard on Kerry. He's a good guy and he'll be a good president.
I've been working my way through the posts and am feeling kind of numb, trying to sort my thoughts on Dean, Kerry, ABB, DNC, etc. Everyone seems all over the place. I got to Natasha's post and thanks, Natasha, for pointing out the obvious on where Dean could best be of help in promoting progressive values. As a Dean supporter, (and contributor), I don't want to go home and come November, hold my nose and vote ABB. There is an alternative way. Dean pulls out, and throws his support to Kerry for McAuliffe's job. Make it a done deal at that moment, or we go home and not vote. You want our vote?, our contributions$$$, our passion? We need a change in the WH and the DNC. This would be one way to get everyone on board the Kerry express and attack the corporatists wherever they may be.
This would be one way to get everyone on board
That might be a way to get all Kerry and Dean backers on board if Kerry were the nominee, sure.
Why should supporters of Clark, Kucinich, Mosely-Braun, Sharpton, Edwards get on board?
If this is all about horse-trading, what do their candidates get?
Republican propaganda alert!!!! I can't believe people here are taking TNR seriously. C'mon in the absence of ANY evidence? This is TNR we are talking about--I smell Rove.
Taff, you said it. I'm also a draft Clark, never cared for Kerry, too cold, too preppy, though with a brain unlike the MF puppet at the Whithe House. Come November I'll do my duty and vote for the nominee, be it Kerry or a molding turd, don't matter much at this point.
And, nobody should be punished and nobody has earned the right to play victim. Punishment is so much part of the republican culture, look at this country, prisons are brimming and more are being built, punishment doesn't work, but some are still using it.
this is in response to the stupid troll that said Kerry doesn't have 'governor's experience'. Coming to think of it, neither does the puppet at the WH or do you think he was actually the governor of Texas at some point? Those who knew him them said that all he did was 'putter' with his toy golf set whenever he'd decide to show up at the office. Whenever he put in an appearance it wouldn't be for more than 2 hours at the most. Anyone who speaks English as a third language, and can't read or admits he doesn't read so as 'not to get depressed' needs to be sent to Pelican Bay for at least 5 years.
Dean and revolution? please give me a fucking break. The man is just another centrist politician with a limited view of the world. The only appeal was rolling the 'revolution' ball and all the political neophites bought the revolution spiel.
Could it be that the majority of his supporters were the Boomers's babies? the most pampered generation in history? Some had no more knowledge of politics than of their own bodily functions. "I like Dean, therefore everyone lkes Dean".
Wake up and smell the coffee, Dean was never the majority's candidate and he's just as liberal as Gore, Kerry, Edwards, Clinton, et al.
Not for:
I'm a Dean supporter. I'm 43, hardly a Boomer baby, definitely not pampered. My significant other is a Dean supporter. He's 60 and Republican. We attend monthly Dean meetups, where the average age of attendees is probably around 50. Our group includes Gray Panthers, members of the Greatest Generation.
If you don't like Dean, that's cool. You have the right to support anyone you choose. But stop making ridiculous overgeneralizations about things. That's just stupid.
Dean and revolution? please give me a fucking break. The man is just another centrist politician with a limited view of the world.
That's what I don't get. Why the revolutionary aura for Dean? He's an ordinary centrist.
Dean DOESN'T threaten the DLC or DNC so there'd be no reason to punish him. TNR is full of crap.
"That's what I don't get. Why the revolutionary aura for Dean? He's an ordinary centrist."
Actually he's "revolutionary" in a way. He subscribes to the Adlai Stevenson philosophy, while the other candidates subscribe to the opposite.
Adlai Stevenson famously said: Let's talk sense to the American people.
Still a revolutionary thought today, and still as unpopular.
Dean is his mantle-bearer, saying let's talk sense about the deficits, about tax cuts, about restructuring the tax system, about reregulation, about Iraq, and the other Dems take the opposite tack.
Kerry might as well say "Let's talk nonsense to the American people", because that's what he's doing, and face it, folks, it's working!
Because the Democratic insiders hate Dean, I seriously doubt if he would be offered the DNC.
That's what I don't get. Why the revolutionary aura for Dean? He's an ordinary centrist.
Why do you think the two are mutually exclusive? Dean is a centrist who pissed off equal numbers of Republicans, liberal Democrats, Independents, and Greens while he was governor because he did what he honestly felt was good for Vermont, even though he often suffered negative political consequences. In this day and age, that kind of thing IS revolutionary.
If pissing people off because you think you're right makes you a revolutionary then Bush* is the greatest revolutionary in Murkin history.
Dean's campaign was revolutionary in the procedural sense rather than in the substantive sense. He proved that a candidate does not have to rely on the corporations and elites for financing a campaign.
In terms of substance, the only thing I can think of that may make Dean revolutionary is that he was against the war in Iraq when it was more fashionable to be for it.
MGJ: you're on the right track. Dean is revolutionary -- by recent Democratic party standards -- because he took Bush on over taxes and Iraq when it was far from popular.
dean/nader '08!!!
I too am feeling rather numb after reading that article and all these posts. Thanks Publius, you make sense.
I do not like the whole ABB thing. Also, I am not at all impressed by Kerry. He seems tired and hollow and does he really believe his own rhetoric?
I am 38 and the only time I voted was when Clinton first ran. Did not vote for him the second term and did not vote in 2000. Every election is a kind of crossroad. However, this year seems like a really crucial one.
I am a Dean supporter. I gave money and wrote letters. And got my heart broken by the Clintonista arm of the Dem party and how they treated Dean and by extension, us Dean supporters. Howard Dean is a honorable man and should not have been treated that way by Kerry or T. McA-Begala-Carville. But that's politics, and my heart is already mending. However, I am concerned about what is happening to my country.
4more years of the goon squad will be disasterous for us.
But the Dems seem just as bad. If the Dems are indeed running up a hate list for their sick punitive pleasures, I will sit this one out too. Only, Publius does make some good points. Points I will consider while I keep my eyes and ears open.
Mayhap, the people who think this is a plant are right. We will certainly be deluged in sewage in the coming months - from both sides.
christian debt helper christian debt helper christian debt helper. collateral consolidation debt loan no collateral consolidation debt loan no collateral consolidation debt loan no.
Characters Remaining:
Commenting by HaloScan
