I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
First comment
Ok, now what about Ken Lay?
It's ah 'good-thing'.
sorry. couldnt resist.
Does this mean we don't have to keep hearing daily updates about Martha Stewart?
YAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!
Can Scott Peterson and Michael Jackson be far behind?
everyone shop at k-mart this weekend
and support martha (and the economy
and maybe help add a couple jobs
here and there and...oh hell, who
am i kidding)
Umm...who cares?
I can't find anything on this yet... 
Who is Martha Stuart? Why does she hate America?
I guess this means that we are all safe now.
If this were China, she'd get the single bullet through the head sentence, along with Kenny Lay.
Le sigh. I was sort of hoping she'd be acquitted, just so all the media whores would be wrong.
But of course, now they can milk this wretched story even more: sentencing, appeals, more punditry than the eye can see or the stomach can stand.
Bizarre.
Maybe she and Karl Rove can room together. Maybe she can show him how to dress so that he no longer looks like a toothpaste tube squeezed too hard in the middle.
A.
Hi, just checking in. Has "atrios" apologized to Sullivan for calling him a liar and then lying about it yet?
Or is he still calling him "Crazy Andy" all the time while his dittohead drones lick his little wounds for him?
gee...there's a surprise...actually it is a surprise cause mega rich people usually don't get serious punishment when they are caught doing their foul deeds. poor martha..if only she had a penis she would have gotten away with it.
Now let's get Ebbers, Riga, and Lay (oh my!).
Ken Lay should dress in Martha Stewart's new clothing-line...
(stripes)
You know, this really bugs me. I'm not a fan of Martha's, but the day they charged her the prosecutor stood on the steps of the court house in Manhattan and made a speech about how there were serious consequences when people "lie to the government". I thought, what the fuck? they can lie to us on a daily basis with no consequences what so ever, but they gotta spend millions on chasing martha.
okay, rant over. Why couldn't they have just fined her and been fucking done with it? Oh wait, she's a liberal, that's different.
goo goo gaa gaa
Does this mean we don't have to keep hearing daily updates about Martha Stewart?
No... there's still the sentencing (credits) and the sequel -- Martha Stewart II: The Appeal.
Only way to end this right now would have been an acquittal.
Off she goes to the slammer though.
Here's a link -
http://apnews.myway.com/article/.../
D814DRV00.html
And here's one about a 3 headed frog - (just some random weirdness)
http://www.local6.com/news/29003...371/
detail.html
Feel badly for Martha. Its not just that she's been a major Democratic contributor but, to put it in context, her misdeeds seem petty & only involved $25,000 profit whereas Ken Lay, Skilling & other Republican benefactors seem to be getting a soft stroke.
Also, has anyone else noticed that Bush seems to go for investigations - probably fishing expeditions - after Democratic office holders while giving Repub. officials a pass. We have an investigation of the Mayor in Philly, Democratic office holder in Louisana, & today Democratic fund raising in NJ, Still waiting for a Bush team investigation of the Republican Election Committee in Washington state, the Gov. of Connecticut etc.
Hi, just checking in. Has "atrios" apologized to Sullivan for calling him a liar and then lying about it yet?
Or is he still calling him "Crazy Andy" all the time while his dittohead drones lick his little wounds for him?
hat
Have you apologized for being a blight on humanity and a huge asshole? didn't think so. Fuck off.
To everyone else, sorry for feeding the troll.
How come only the girls get punished and the boys get to keep playing around on their yachts?
lordy I hate folks who use " " unnecessarily.
First thing my mom (of all people) said when she heard the news. "why don't they go after the big wigs too?" and to that I replied, "I dunno..."
Gah - sorry that wasn't a link, you'll just have to cut & paste - the ole fashioned way. 
question: in terms of comparison (I can't keep the numbers together in my head) how much money was involved in the stewart case, how much money was involved in bush's harken insider trading?
Wish I had shorted Martha Stewart Omnimedia stock...
OT: via the Agonist
Israel Says No Gaza Withdrawal Before U.S. Elections, Seals off Palestinian Areas
... U.S. officials pressed Weisglass for the delay, fearing the pullout could spark chaos at a time when the Bush administration wants to avoid further upheaval in the Middle East.
Why the fuck should the Palestinians have to sit in lockdown because of the US election, & while this continues to happen:
Also Friday, a 10-year-old Palestinian boy died of wounds sustained in an Israeli air strike in Gaza City last week
Hi, just checking in...
You're free to go now and on the way out, don't let the door hit you in the ass,hat.
What a waste of time and money this prosecution was. The prosecutors were just out to get her, and woe to him or her when the govt targets you. Think this would happen if she was a major Republican contributor?
Hi, just checking in. Has "atrios" apologized to Sullivan for calling him a liar and then lying about it yet?
Or is he still calling him "Crazy Andy" all the time while his dittohead drones lick his little wounds for him?
hat
Were you born a moron or do you have to work at it?
It must hurt to be as stupid as you are.
What, thinking about lying is a bad thing?
OT, does anyone else figure the real cause of Ashcroft's unfortunate medical problems could be just the SHEER VOLUME OF UNFILTERED BILE he's been pumping thru his system for the last three years?
Forgive me. It is not kind to berate the impaired.
So Martha is a convicted felon... now that she's "joined the club" and qualified to work for the Bush White House, what will her new job be?
Move over Gail Norton.
I already sold all my MS omnimedia stock because I had inside info that MS would be found guilty
JUST KIDDING MR ASHCROFT!!!!!!!
(yes, he can hear what you're saying even while in the hospital)
And Ken Lay still walks free. Disgusting.
First thing my mom (of all people) said when she heard the news. "why don't they go after the big wigs too?" and to that I replied, "I dunno..."
Sam Waksal is in jail...
MinnObserver - Waksal is in jail, and Bacanovic was just found guilty. Both guys.
All I can offer is a big shrug. Justice won't be done until Kenny Boy's ass is behind bars.
OT: Spyral, I didn't click on the link, but frog mutations are more than just weirdness--they're incredibly sensitive to the environment, and when they grow three heads, five legs or whatever, us monkeys should be worried.
Haw haw!
Bush will pardon Ken Lay. The only remaining question is when it will happen, 19 Jan 2005 or 19 Jan 2009.
Why the fuck should the Palestinians have to sit in lockdown because of the US election, & while this continues to happen:
Also Friday, a 10-year-old Palestinian boy died of wounds sustained in an Israeli air strike in Gaza City last week
satiRic air tanK
That's what they get for living in a terrorist society. I just finished reading Le Carre's Absolute Friends last night and I'm not real happy with my government. The world hates us because of these asshats and deservedly so. The palestinian situation is a travesty.
You don't honestly think she's going to be punished? She'll do 2 years of probation and 500 hours of community service. She's a pretty blonde lady, not a black person.
SWEEEEEEEEET!!!
Sorry, haloscan ate my coding. That sentence "that's what they get..." was absolutely said in sarcasm.
Hi, just --
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
BTW, now that Silly Sully has "turned the worm," so to speak, how soon before the moronic brownshirt fucks suddenly decide he's not worth defending anymore?
Huh.
Well. On the one hand, why is Ken Lay still walking around?
On the other hand ... wow. does this mean TV and newstand magazines will soon be orders of magnitude less annoying?
Bush will pardon Ken Lay. The only remaining question is when it will happen, 19 Jan 2005 or 19 Jan 2009.
Can they pardon someone who hasn't even been charged yet?
I sometimes wonder if that's why the prosecutors have been holding off on Kenny Boy so far.
Why can't they go after Bush's inside trading with that much zeal?
Remember Harken!
She headed a public company
She was a former stock broker and
at the time a member of the Board of the NY Stock Exchange
Not even being held to a higher standard --she lied when the government asked her questions and tried to cover it up. When will people learn..rarely the crime always the cover up.
Wow, I can't wait to see what they're going to throw at Ken Lay.
I mean Wow, Martha's guilty?
lol
She is such small change compared to those Enron clowns it's not even funny.
I think she has to do time. And not in a club fed.
at least i'm not the only one with harken memories
Can I volunteer for conjugal visits?
Funny speculators...
NEW YORK, March 5 (Reuters) - Shares of Martha Stewart's namesake company soared to 21-month highs on Friday on apparent optimism about the impending outcome of the homemaking icon's obstruction-of-justice trial.
MSO trading at 17 before verdict.
MSO trading at 11.20 after verdict.
OT
here and at homepage, Bush's and Powell's lie about chemical labs was never reviewed by intelligence services.
[donning ¤EXCITING¤ tinfoil underwear]
or, Intelligence services incensed over Plame and pissed about Cheneyrape announces loudly, "I'M NOT WITH THIS GUY!"
this verdict will be overturned on appeal.
PA: on what grounds?
Martha broke rule #1 of insider trading.
Make sure part of your proceeds go to the right place.
Sera-
Bush 41 pardoned Cap Weinberger, who had been indicted but neither tried nor convicted.
And in the most famous pardon ever, Ford pardoned Nixon even though he had not even been indicted.
The President's pardon privileges are unlimited except in the case of impeachment.
In the part of this universe that we know there is great injustice, and often the good suffer, and often the wicked prosper, and one hardly knows which of those is the more annoying. --Bertrand Russell
here and at homepage, excellent bit about the difference between "Islamic" and "Muslim", on "Salaffiya", etc
As a business reporter, I'm frequently disgusted by what goes on on Wall Street, but I can't say I agree with Martha taking the fall for something like this, especially since she was found guilty of obstructing an investigation that turned out to be fruitless. While it's fun to see one of the richie rich's get taken down, it should be for something serious and legitimate. Of course the jury decided it was legitimate but it still seems rather trifling.-
Martha Stewart was a self-made woman, in the traditional meaning of that phrase. She pulled herself up from her boostraps and made herself wealthy by BAKING COOKIES AND SELLING COOKBOOKS. But she's a bitch, yeah, right. Can't let that go unpunished.
Meanwhile, spoiled priveliged rich boys like ken lay and his ilk bilk the public for enough money to pay off the national debt. They won't ever do a day in jail.
I don't understand the Martha-hatred anymore. I used to think the jokes about her were funny and thought she was a worthy target for some mean-spirited humor. But now her life is ruined.
I'm very saddened by this. I hope people can grow up about it now. She didn't deserve this.
Sera-
Bush 41 pardoned Cap Weinberger, who had been indicted but neither tried nor convicted.
And in the most famous pardon ever, Ford pardoned Nixon even though he had not even been indicted.
The President's pardon privileges are unlimited except in the case of impeachment.
That is vaguely disconcerting.
I wonder if the torch-and-pitchfork crowd would really tolerate a pardon of Kenneth Lay. More to the point, I wonder if those who complained so loudly and so long about Marc Rich would make so much as a peep.
Still, if they can get a Martha Stewart, maybe that means there's hope they could also get a Ken Lay ...
Dumbo: Well put!
But now her life is ruined.
LOL
She will to light time (if any) and then rehabilitate her image. Or just retire and enjoy her many millions.
She is hardly ruined.
Martha Stewart was a self-made woman, in the traditional meaning of that phrase. She pulled herself up from her boostraps and made herself wealthy by BAKING COOKIES AND SELLING COOKBOOKS. But she's a bitch, yeah, right. Can't let that go unpunished.
Cry me a river with this dream deferred horseshit. She pumped and dumped like every other millionaire Wall Street fraudster. I'm glad to see her go down.
Mystery date... I'm ready for my mystery date...
I wonder if the torch-and-pitchfork crowd would really tolerate a pardon of Kenneth Lay.
Nope.
Martha will write a book and get a million dollar advance.
I have no malice for her, but don't cry for Martha. Instead shed a tear for the thousands of poor slobs who lost their life savings/retirement accounts on Enron.
I'm surprised no one has tried to take him out. Think how YOU would feel if you were 55, had saved all your life in order to have a halfway decent retirement, and then you found out some crook had stolen it all.
I was going to say i hope hat doesn't come around again later expecting anyone to apologize for calling him the bloviating spawn of any oxy-chugging ass-monkey.
Back to the santorum puddle from which you crawled, hat!
(him = Lay)
Lay will get punished but not proportionally to his crimes. Defense will set up his case as SO complex that no jury can easily understand it.
The best thing about Stewart case was that they were some simple things that people can understand.
Some of the scams that Enron pulled were not spotted by actual accountants.
Acoording to CNN, she will have to do time in a real federal prison.
Still, if they can get a Martha Stewart, maybe that means there's hope they could also get a Ken Lay ...
The Other Sarah
hahahaha yeah sure Other Sarah, and GHW Bush had NOTHING to do with the Iranian hostages being released on Reagan's Inauguration Day!
Where Martha f'ed up is that she didn't cut the GOP Cosa Nostra in on the action.
And now howabout Bush for Harken Energy Insider trading? Now would be a great time to press the point.
http://www.buzzflash.com/
perspec...ush_Harken.html
He should be impeached for this flat out!
Don't feel bad Martha. Michael Millken went to jail, and when he got out he went right back to floating deals. Millken is currently floating NewCorp Prefered Stock (or as Millken himself likes to call them, Preferred Junk) to finance Murdoch's acquisition of DirectTV.
So how much time did Neil Bush spend in federal prison for his part in the s&l scandals?
I can't help but think this was a big distraction to convince us all that something is being done to protect small investors by going after a big name while the real criminals like the crooked analysts and investment bankers, and CEOs like Ken Lay and Dennis Kozlowski remain unpunished.
What I want to know is, what kind of community service will she be sentenced to ... because when it comes to fixing places up, you gotta admit that Martha knows more about it than anyone.
I propose that they assign her the worst neighborhood in the Bronx, with instructions to use her skills and fortune to fix it up.
It would never look the same again.
Good point...we spent more money prosecuting this case than her alleged profit. If we'd have just payed her bill and moved on we'd have had an extra couple o' hundred thousand dollars to spend elsewhere.
Ken Lay is still free because he didn't do anything illegal.
you're exactly right, whatever. It's smoke and mirrors for the sheeple.
Ah, it's always Martha Martha Martha!
While I dislike her too, I think she have all this reduced on appeal. Her defense lasted an hour -- a sign her lawyers were a group of incompetent buffoons and thought the government case against her was so weak that they didn't feel that they needed to rebut it. At the very worst, she'll serve those sentences concurrently, which means five years max -- and probably about 9 months in the slammer, and another 18 on probation. It's not like she's a serial criminal or anything.
Plus, I'd rather she were acquitted, since her appeal means we have to deal with Martha Martha Martha all the goddamn time. At least her acquittal keeps her out of the limelight, and the charges have already dehalofied her.
It's pathetic to see you liberals whine about one of your own getting caught with her hand in the till...
PATHETIC...
YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL PATHETIC...
Other Sarah: "Still, if they can get a Martha Stewart, maybe that means there's hope they could also get a Ken Lay"
Yeh, but there's a major difference: Martha was a big Democratic Party contributor whereas Enron was Bush's biggest single contributor. Lay was the major financer of Dubya's Florida recount challenge.
Surely Martha wouldn't get different treatment because she's given Dem donations... why, that's practically un-American...
Beside the fact that the media's testicles have shrivled well up into the body since 2001, why AREN'T more people asking about Enron? I've yet to hear a single good answer that satisifies my interest, and I didn't lose a dime.
GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS DUDE !!!!!
That's funny that some of you don't consider Martha a "big wig." And that people choose to ignore the fact that two rich men were busted along with her. Her case apparently was close to being open/shut, with compelling prosecution witnesses testifying to her plainly illegal actions. That her crimes involved so little money just shows what a greedy person she is. Enron and some of the other big-time corporate scandals are far more complex and the defense will likely be stronger. Unless you know something the rest of us don't, please resist offering too-easy comparisons between these cases.
smarter trolls, please.
I propose that they assign her the worst neighborhood in the Bronx, with instructions to use her skills and fortune to fix it up.
Tying festive Christmas colored ribbons around extra 18-round clips, as I've done here with T-Bone's 9 mm. Smith and Wesson, really add a cozy touch to an otherwise drab chrome clapper.
Hey Bentleys, it's just that we liberals believe SO strongly that the totally free market economy will cure all evils that we get upset when ANYONE gets caught because everyone should be deregulated and the FCC holds back business interests.
Hooray, I'm a conservative!!
Twat.
Don't forget fraud at Worldcom, Adelphia, Tyco.
And for you Texas folks how about El Paso Gas?
I wonder if California every got money back from:
Dynegy, Duke Energy, and Reliant Energy?
I'm just sayin
Martha Stewart's ill gotten gains: about $50,000.00
People hurt: One doper junior stock broker.
Status: Convicted
Political contributions: Democratic
Ken Lays ill gotten gains: about $500,000,000.00
People hurt: thousands of honest hardworking people who lost their pensions.
Status: Not charged
Political contributions: Republican
Lesson to be learned: Donate to Republicans.
Did someone turn off the Troll-Zapper?
A.
yup, i believe that Sera's right above...
barring an extremely unlikely success on appeal, Stewart and Bacanovic should be going to *real* prison -- not Club Fed; not community service; not home-based monitoring. prison. real, convicted-felon-style prison. the only variable should be the sentencing term...
the feds are not dicking around on this.
"It's pathetic to see you liberals whine about one of your own getting caught with her hand in the till...
PATHETIC...
YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL PATHETIC..."
What you mean Martha's a shoplifter too? No? Oh, well, see I asked because most jobless, currently houseless people like myself have never actually taken hundreds of thousands of people for hundreds of thousands of dollors. . .
And we're proud of that.
OT someone just told me arafat died is this true?
Can I volunteer for conjugal visits?
soup | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 3:33 pm |
Ew!
Lesson to be learned: Donate to Republicans.
Matthew Saroff
And steal a LOT more money. Don't piss around with that $50,000 bullshit.
When will people learn..rarely the crime always the cover up.
Plame affair.
Sept. 11
I'm more outraged about Bill Gates pimping for "stamps" for email.
I'm sure he has no plan for M$oft getting a piece of the action, oh no...
I'm sure this news is making the quake in the Halliburton board room.
Funny, I don't see any liberals actually defending Stewart. And, I had no idea Stewart was a liberal. I suspect she isn't, actually, but rather a feminist corporatist, Joe Lieberman-style Democrat. Which qualifies as a socialist for the Freeper crowd, but their opinions are worthless anyways.
If she did the crime, she should pay. (I don't like her, so I try to avoid paying too much attention to her.) And she's probably guilty of something actually illegal, in addition to being a bitch. (Jail, like acquittal, has the nice effect of putting her out of sight, out of mind.) But are her crimes worse than Ken Lay's? No; Ken Lay's crimes are much, much worse, and he has somehow managed to avoid coming anywhere close to this point, and for Lay, it really is an open-and-shut case, there's no question that he's guilty.
Does anyone know if any of the electric utility swindlers in the California overcharging cases were ever prosecuted or convicted by the Justice Dept?
Some of you people are critical but Martha did it, mainly, the old fashioned way: hard work & ingenuity. I'm sure the past 10 years or so, when she made it, a lot of inside information came her way. This is always the case with the wealthy - they smooze & prop each other up.
Still, I look at this case as similar to the pounding Gore took for the Buddist Temple donations. The media never reported it was a few thousand. Shoot, Dubya would get that amount in 5 seconds from his wealthy contributors pulling out the loose bills in their wallets. A SENSE OF PROPORTION IS NECESSARY.
Arafat isn't dead. The Isreali army is palying war games as if he were. There was a poorly written artical that might make you think he was though.
bentleys - what's particularly amusing is you ranting about "liberals" wanting to let Martha off the hook, while the right wing droolers continue to insist Rush should walk free. See Atrios' Rule of Law post below.
I have no sympathy for Martha - she's a billionaire who let her greed over the prospect of losing a few lousy thousand goad her into committing a crime. She should be punished.
However, there's no rational explanation why Ken Lay and those who bilked billions out of Californians are still out walking free. This was clearly a diversionary tactic by the feds.
Statement from Martha after verdict:
Dear Friends:
I am obviously distressed by the jury's verdict but I continue to take comfort in knowing that I have done nothing wrong and that I have the enduring support of my family and friends.
I will appeal the verdict and continue to fight to clear my name. I believe in the fairness of the judicial system and remain confident that I will ultimately prevail.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the words of encouragement I have received from thousands of supporters. It is your continued support that will keep me going until I am completely exonerated.
Sincerely,
Martha Stewart
Does anyone know if any of the electric utility swindlers in the California overcharging cases were ever prosecuted or convicted by the Justice Dept?
Nope. Arnold Schwarzenegger very, very quietly settled the lawsuits for pennies on the dollar. Maybe it had something to do with his friendship with Ken Lay. Read these two links in order:
http://gregpalast.com/detail.cfm...artid=283&
row=1
http://gregpalast.com/detail.cfm...artid=286&
row=2
"I will appeal the verdict and continue to fight to clear my name."
Awwwwh, damn it!
OT, but ya' know the Plame grand jury subpeonaed a press gaggle transcript for July 12 2003 because it wasn't posted on the White House web site, right?
Well, the transcript is now availble on the White House web site [scroll down to July 2003].
I guess one of the White House gnomes got a little nervous and decided to post it.
OT someone just told me arafat died is this true?
smartone
How could they tell?
"I have no sympathy for Martha - she's a billionaire who let her greed over the prospect of losing a few lousy thousand goad her into committing a crime. She should be punished."
Ooh, ugly envy. What a surprise.
OT
I don't think this is about the verdict...
Thousands of Aristide Supporters Pour Into Streets
Hurling slurs at U.S. Marines and calling President Bush a "terrorist," a crowd estimated at more than 10,000 materialized in the capital, seething with anger at Aristide's flight to Africa five days ago after a bloody rebellion and U.S. pressure.
Some guy in Crawford is having a very, very bad day.
.
You know, I agree Ken Lay should be prosecuted, and frankly now that Skilling's been indicted, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before he flips on Lay. Patience, people, these things take time.
But even if not, why does that mean Stewart and Bacanovic should have gotten off? You mean, like Drudge's argument that because a Palm Beach judge got off on an OxyContin addiction, Rush should too? They lied to the US Attorneys, and believe me, they don't like that. Nor should any of us want folks to feel like they can do that with impunity.
As for an appeal, no way will this be overturned, at least not on the basis that Martha's lawyers didn't put on an adequate defense. Bob Morvillo is the most respected criminal lawyer in NYC -- no judge of the Second Circuit would ever render a verdict calling him ineffective. Period.
Holden, what's in that gaggle that spells trouble?
I will be happy when this story goes away.
Old Hat
But, but this involved 10s of billions of dollars and killed the california economy. Surely, if Martha was pursued on principle that even if it were only a few thous, no one is above the law, the Bush Administration must have put 1000s of Fed. prosecutures on the case. NO?
Dr. Gonzo. Exactly. That's what bugs me about it too.
Well, Anonymous, I see you're back again, and as usual, acting like someone pissed in your Wheaties this morning.
Why are you such an asshole? Are you one of those creatures from Star Trek that feeds on negativity? What exactly crawled up your ass and died?
Don't bother answering. I don't care and no one else does either.
More on three-headed frog
Found in the Green Umbrella nursery, Weston-super-Mare, UK, by a couple of kindergartners and the BBC Natural History Unit...
and yes, worrying signs for the environment if more of these oddities turn up on a routine scale.
MSO stock went from up 20% to down 20% in the last hour. Just like Bob Dole on viagra.
Carter,
Sadly, no. Martha Stewart committed the ultimate wrong: no giv GOP turkee.
If she's guilty -- and the jury says she is -- then ALL her money shouldn't protect her. Nor should her punishment be less/unequal to that meted out to her broker and/or Waksal. That would be what we used to mean by "truth, justice and the American way."
But here's the thing that hurts: the GOP way is what's on now, and that means there will be ZERO investigation of the California (and Texas) 'energy crisis' during which natural gas prices went up, electricity went up, rolling brownouts were the norm, and people who were -- like my dad -- on fixed and limited incomes found themselves financially devastated.
So I'm optimistic. If the GOP can get MS, maybe someday an honest government can get KL.
Dorthy,
They might have misread
this story.
Interestingly, when googling for it I noticed a bunch of arab and indian publications reporting that Arafat's compound is being surrounded by tanks.
...which, if true, will really cut into some brush clearing today.
Dorthy,
They might have misread
this story.
Interestingly, when googling for it I noticed a bunch of arab and indian publications reporting that Arafat's compound is being surrounded by tanks.
...which, if true, will really cut into some brush clearing today.
The trolls are here like buzzards because they believe a conviction for Martha Stewart is a win for them and a loss for liberals. Is that pathetic or what?
Wingers aren't worth killing.
"Well, Anonymous, I see you're back again, and as usual, acting like someone pissed in your Wheaties this morning.
Why are you such an asshole? Are you one of those creatures from Star Trek that feeds on negativity? What exactly crawled up your ass and died?
Don't bother answering. I don't care and no one else does either."
Take that to your therapist next session. That's some ripe material.
So, you deny that you harbor envy and animosity towards the wealthy? You certainly do towards the intelligent, reasonable, and informed.
It's a very typical behavior pattern -- trying to knock down instead of elevating yourself to be better.
Your shrink will tell you all about it.
I don't care for Martha, but I still think she was railroaded. It's the equivalent of arresting Tommy Chong to show that the government is fighting the drug war, meanwhile, the CIA runs its own drug smuggling operation in Central and South America. I really hate this administration.
What about the top charge being dropped against that scuzball Dennis the Menace Mr. Tyco? What about all the GOVERNMENT MONEY Tyco received for that scumbag to finance his 7 multimillion dollar homes and his jetsetting lifestyle?
What about Enron and the others that gutted California's economy?
She's a scapegoat. She'll get time. The REPUBLICAN MEN will get a free ticket.
Boy, I'm pissed. Hell....I even emailed Lou Dobbs about my anger.
"win for them and a loss for liberals"
Some trolls here feel it's a win for poor people and a loss for rich people. I agree -- it's pathetic.
Let's see if I understand events, here.
Martha lies to the feds investigating her about some computer entries and she will go to jail.
Bush lies to American people to get authorization to wage war against Iraq and uses experience as fodder for tv commercials to get re-elected.
[insert ironically humerous statement]
pie - If you're still around, you need to check in on the thread below on jobless figures. Someone is posting as "pie2" there.
Thought you might want to know - though at least there is a 2 after the pie. However, the comments are not anything at all that you'd ever say - like "Leave Bush alone, it's not his fault."
So I'm optimistic. If the GOP can get MS, maybe someday an honest government can get KL.
Unless there are statutes of limitation, of course.
Anonymous - you suck as a shrink.
But then again, you suck as a human being.
Now that this is long national nightmare is over we can get back to serious business:
Janet Jackson's boob.
Seriously, maybe now they can start lining up the traitors in the White House and put them on trial.
Distraction Destruction Squad.
I'm not dead yet!
[Interjection by Sharon: Yes you are!]
No I'm not!
{Second interjection by Sharon: Well you will be soon]
name the movie, first one with the correct answer gets a guided tour of the tunnel system in palestinian territory, with MOI.
i just feel sick & sad about this.
OT
I read an article on how Bush has run the USA oil reserves down to their lowest point since 2000. Now, and only now, with oil prices at their highest point for years, he is buying oil with your tax $s.
Once again, your tax $s are going into the pockets of the Republican ellites. And remember friends, The Republicans are against welfare, and all those people on social security. Will there be an investigation into this? Of course not.
Bush lies to American people to get authorization to wage war against Iraq and uses experience as fodder for tv commercials to get re-elected.
Hans Blix, too, believes the war on Iraq was illegal.
So what are your lovely Democrats doing to hold Bush accountable?
They're going to make him a one-termer and retire to Crawford and become an over paid consultant to some defense contractor. Oooohhhh that's really harsh.
Oh, you mean if they persued the legality issues, some of the Democrats would be found culpable too...
Finally an answer, and it is shocking
http://antiwar.com/orig/pilger.p...?
articleid=2089
"A question that New Democrats like to ask is: "What would Al Gore have done if he had not been cheated of the presidency by Bush?" Gore's top adviser was the arch-hawk Leon Fuerth, who said the US should "destroy the Iraqi regime, root and branch." Joseph Lieberman, Gore's running mate in 2000, helped to get Bush's war resolution on Iraq through Congress. In 2002, Gore himself declared that an invasion of Iraq "was not essential in the short term" but "nevertheless, all Americans should acknowledge that Iraq does, indeed, pose a serious threat." Like Blair, what Gore wanted was an "international coalition" to cover long-laid plans for the takeover of the Middle East. His complaint against Bush was that, by going it alone, Washington could "weaken our ability to lead the world in this new century."
Collusion between the Bush and Gore camps was common. During the 2000 election, Richard Holbrooke, who probably would have become Gore's secretary of state, conspired with Paul Wolfowitz to ensure their respective candidates said nothing about US policy towards Indonesia's blood-soaked role in southeast Asia. "Paul and I have been in frequent touch," said Holbrooke, "to make sure we keep [East Timor] out of the presidential campaign, where it would do no good to American or Indonesian interests." The same can be said of Israel's ruthless, illegal expansion, of which not a word was and is said: it is a crime with the full support of both Republicans and Democrats.
They're going to make him a one-termer and retire to Crawford and become an over paid consultant to some defense contractor. Oooohhhh that's really harsh
well dubya's gonna be real busy workin on his library -
From Amazon.com
31 people recommended The Very Hungry Caterpillar in addition to Deliver Us from Evil : Defeating Terrorism, Despotism, and Liberalism by Sean Hannity
and yes, worrying signs for the environment if more of these oddities turn up on a routine scale.
--TheaLogie
Actually, they say that frogs are actually like a canary in a mine - they are the first affected by their environment. Mutations show up in frogs first in a contaminated pond, because they take in water through their skin.
So, you're exactly right...but we've had seriously mutated frogs in the US for quite some time now. Three-eyed or whatever else you can come up with. They are already to some extent "routine."
That they are mutating in the UK is disturbing...that means that the world is polluted enough to cross oceans significantly. Can you guess where it came from? Not Uzbekistan, I can assure you.
Well I told you all she was guilty. Now I worry about Lay being charged b/c I would bet he could very damaging to the WH....like oh I dont know Cheney's secret energy meetings....wanna bet kenny boy was involved with them....Bernie Ebbers has now been charged...I'd say he is the worst one of the whole bunch of crooks....Martha went down for this b/c she refused to plea bargain and never came clean about he lies....Jim Cramer covered all this, if she would have admitted what she done she could have avoided trial and got CS....but she was too arrogant to take the guilty plea, which will be Rush's downfall as well....
Is GWB next? In Ron Suskind's book he was quoted as saying U.S. economic problems are due to "SEC overreach".
"Anonymous - you suck as a shrink."
That's why I suggested you take what you write to your shrink and ask him or her to analyze it. If he or she gives you the same response, will you say "You suck" to them?
"But then again, you suck as a human being."
Another pitiable outlashing with no meaning whatsoever.
I know I'm correct when you avoid the subject. It's clear as day.
Couldn't the three-headed frog be natural, like conjoined twins (only as triplets)? Mind you, I don't know anything about frog genes.
More on three-headed frog-
Last Paragraph,
"The mystery amphibian is currently the subject of a frog-hunt after it hopped away and disappeared as staff at the nursery showed it to curious parents."
The picture looks to me like frogs breeding. Seems a little too convenient that it "hopped away and disappeared." I can't imagine a frog that was built like that being too hard to catch.
You know, this really bugs me. ...the day they charged her the prosecutor stood on the steps of the court house in Manhattan and made a speech about how there were serious consequences when people "lie to the government". I thought, what the fuck? they can lie to us on a daily basis with no consequences what so ever, but they gotta spend millions on chasing martha.
four legs good
God that was a good observation.
You should get the "best post of the thread award" if there were one.
I can't wait until President Kerry pardons her.
Tena. I'm suprised at you. Unless you are just someone posting under Tena's name. . .
Another woman pays the price for playing the boys' treehouse.
I'm really surprised to see anyone here complaining about Martha Stewart -- one of the greediest people on earth -- getting nailed for being a sleazeball.
Regarding the three headed frog, the mutant frog thing has been going on for years now. About five years back (at least) I recall seeing a picture of a frog (or possible a toad) whose eyes developed INSIDE ITS MOUTH (attached to the roof, upside down). In other words, it had to open its mouth to see, which is what the picture showed: a frog with its mouth open and its eyes LOOKING OUT. How this frog managed to develop to an adult is just mindboggling. Nature -- gotta love it. Martha Stewart -- bye bye you lying egotistical stinking sack of money.
I think that was someone other than Tena, but Pilger's article is worth reading. I know people here don't like antiwar.com, but Pilger is left of their usual position, and they still put up articles by him (& Chomsky, Solomon, and others that they consider "left"). John Pilger's a solid journalist and there's nothing in that article that isn't true.
The subject is, you're an asshole who "lashes out" at people you do not even know for no discernable reason - which brings us back to you being an asshole. You also seem to have poor reading comprehension skills; otherwise, you'd never be able to read such dark motives into what others post on these boards. Saying that someone should be punished for a crime is a mark of "envy"? In what friggin' universe? More intelligent readers (which would mean everyone else on this thread) can pretty clearly get the meaning of what I wrote - that Martha's was a crime of greed, not need. She wasn't stealing a loaf of bread to feed her starving family. If anything, she should be judged more harshly than someone in the circumstance just described, though as we all know that rarely happens. Yet in your small mind, pointing that out as a metaphor for unequal justice = "envy".
And about that shrink stuff, next time you go to see yours, ask him what "projection" means.
OT -
Hey, y'all need to check out the wonderful Colin Powell haiku over at
busy busy busy
I feel so much safer now.
Show your support. Buy a t-shirt!
NO JUSTICE
NO QUICHE
OT:
Josh Marshall says that Scottie got asked the 5th amendment question regarding Plame. Scottie had "no knowledge" of anyone taking the 5th.
If nothing else, this conviction should qualify Martha for a position in a second Bush administration (g*d forbid).
i feel the same as i did about clinton....this is someone that had talents/skills i admired that did something dumb. just dumb.
and some of the best stuff i've ever made is from martha.
i just feel bemused. kind of a weird thing to feel, but i think that's it.
Martha's crime is fairly small beer. Unworthy of Federal prosecution, if she wasn't so public a figure.
And it's hard to escape the feeling she was targeted (perhaps even found guilty by the jury) because it "rhymes with 'rich.'"
After all, they went after her so avidly the judge found her not guilty as a matter of law on one count. That means the prosecution never had a case on that charge, and should be embarassed for ever bringing it to court.
Prosecutors HATE that kind of thing.
They're being damned careful about the case against Jeff Skilling, on the other hand. And Kenny Boy still doesn't seem to be on the radar screen. Despite the number of people they lied to, and what they did in California.
But Martha disses somebody's assistant, and dithers with a phone record, and the full weight of the U.S. Attorney's office comes down on her.
Hmmmmmm.......
Good point SteveLG. White House press conference from last year:
Mokhiber: Ari, other than Elliot Abrams, how many convicted criminals are on the White House staff?
Ari Fleischer: You tell me, Russell.
Mokhiber: Could you give a list of convicted criminals on the White House staff, other than Elliot Abrams?
Ari Fleischer: I'll go right to the convicted criminals division and ask them.
Mokhiber: Seriously, why isn't being convicted of a crime a disqualifier for being on the White House staff?
Martha guilty, Ashcroft hospitalized, Howard Stern radicalized...
There is a God.
Robert M. Jeffers,
So was Fastow a Democratic campaign contributor? Bernie Ebbers? How many people would have noticed if Ebbers were never, ever indicted?
I don't mind people making the argument that the prosecution of Stewart was politically motivated, because maybe it will make the AG try to convince us otherwise, by nailing Lay and others. I just don't think it is supported by the facts, that while not frequent enough, corporate celebrity crooks of all political affiliations do sometimes get prosecuted.
"The subject is, you're an asshole who "lashes out" at people you do not even know for no discernable reason"
No, that's your angry response to the subject. The subject, in this case, is your envy of wealthy and successful people. You needn't project your emotions on to me, because I'm not angry, nor am I "lashing out". And that the reason is not discernible to you is because you are in deep denial about yourself.
"You also seem to have poor reading comprehension skills"
A very cliche putdown -- once again without meaning. As I said, you obviously have deep emnity for people who have succeeded in some form in life, and consequently, you seek to knock them down, rather than emulate their success. As I noted, it's a common behavior -- unfortunate, but common.
"Saying that someone should be punished for a crime is a mark of "envy"?"
No, making mention that she's "a billionaire" (which she isn't, by the way, but you're not known for using language precisely) and denouncing her angrily indicate envy and resentment. Greed knows no class. In fact, you are quite greedy and selfish. You openly admit that you'll put your own comfort above your sense of duty. As I said, you're in deep denial.
" More intelligent readers (which would mean everyone else on this thread)"
There's a red alarm about your level of delusion right there.
" If anything, she should be judged more harshly than someone in the circumstance just described, though as we all know that rarely happens."
You just proved my point. You would have her wealth be a factor in her punishment. That is, if someone of your limited means did it, they should receive less punishment, just because Stewart worked her ass off to become a success? Made all kinds of sacrifices that you would never be able to stomach making?
"And about that shrink stuff, next time you go to see yours, ask him what "projection" means."
So, now, unabashedly, you basically parrot my prior statement to you, indicating that you are very proud to be unoriginal.
Why wear your life's failures and disappointments so clearly on your sleeve? You get so pissed because what I say is so true. It's always that way.
A smart person would take the critique in stride and work to better themselves. You, like most lazy people, simply use it to reinforce all the bad qualities that you openly share with us all.
I'm very tired of so-called "liberals" being so narrow-minded. Try dealing with people as individuals instead of classes and stereotypes. Go out and meet some people outside of your class and belief system -- you'd be amazed how open-minded and tolerant you might become.
At the stage you're in, I highly doubt you'll be wise enough to take that advice.
Don't forget to torture lou today. we're losing bad.
Well, this ought to send a strong message to the terrorists. On the bright side, the local prison is looking forward to getting some spiffy new curtains and spicing up its cafeteria menu with Martha's Chicken Cordon-Bleu recipe.
Maybe Stewart deserved to be convicted. I'm not sure. If so, why is the Many-Teated Motormouth, who has committed much more serious crimes, still free to spread his vile propaganda on the publically owned airwaves?
I don't mind people making the argument that the prosecution of Stewart was politically motivated, because maybe it will make the AG try to convince us otherwise, by nailing Lay and others. I just don't think it is supported by the facts, that while not frequent enough, corporate celebrity crooks of all political affiliations do sometimes get prosecuted.
Actually, my point was the prosecution had less to do with her politics, than her gender.
Leona Helmsley was convicted of tax fraud, IIRC. She was probably convicted as much for her arrogance, as her culpability.
So, point 1: was Martha convicted because she was guilty, or because she was Martha?
Point 2: When was the last time you heard of a judge declaring a Federal criminal defendant not guilty as a matter of law? It's as rare as a cold day in August in Texas. There's a reason for that, and it opens a question: why was this case prosecuted, if it was that weak?
Point 3: What was she found guilty of? Dissing an assistant, dithering with a phone record? This is worthy of the time of a U.S. attorney? What, no drug lords to arrest? Enough people already investigating Ken Lay? WorldCom?
Sorry. It's not paranoia to say this one doesn't pass the smell test. Martha was probably guilty. But was it worth the time to prosecute it?
I'm not sure it was....
Whoever just posted that long comment with my name it WAS NOT ME.
Someone is posting as me and as pie. Ya'll know me better than to think I'd post such shit.
Look at the comment - no email. My email link always appears. God. Damn. It.
Quit posting comments using my name, fucker.
Actually, my point was the prosecution had less to do with her politics, than her gender.
Ah, ok. I agree that this may have something to do with it. Sorry about that.
Millions of dollars and wasted energy on an futile exercise that
only confirms to most that the system isn't equitable.
Too bad, it wasn't you Tena, it was a good post.
Just as it isn't paranoia, I should point out it also isn't partisanship, either to question this prosecution, or to answer this question:
So was Fastow a Democratic campaign contributor?
Probably not, although Enron was an equal opportunity contributor, as I understand (most businesses are).
But neither has the sitting President been known to address Mr. Fastow as "Andy Boy."
Not conclusive evidence. But, as the case of Cheney hunting with Scalia shows, it certainly raises the question of a conflict of interest.
And it's curious that Ms. Stewart was brought to trial so quickly, on evidence flimsy enough to get one count dismissed, while Kenny Boy is still not officially the subject of any investigation.
Coincidence? I'm not convinced....
My bad. Clearly, someone pissed in your Dasani this morning.
As for the rest of your tripe, dave says it best when he says:
ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
Tena - I was going to post something snarky about how do we know you are the real Tena, the you went and called him a fucker, so I knew it had to be the real Tena.
She went down because she is a Rich Democrat, period!
This is about sending a message to all those other rich democrats, "we are watching you, and we will take action if we want too"
A certain well know rich, jewish, liberal, female, singer/actor should make sure she does nothing wrong while this lot are in The White House.
Howard Stern will be next after that.
Martha wasn't convicted because of her politics or her gender, or because she's wealthy. She was convicted based on the evidence aginst her.
As already noted, she was also:
1. The CEO of a publicly traded Co.
2. A former stock broker
3. On the Board of Directors of the NYSE when she committed the crime
Look at the comment - no email. My email link always appears. God. Damn. It.
I noticed, too, that it was "signed" "tena," with a lowercase "t."
The devil is in the details.
Ah, ok. I agree that this may have something to do with it. Sorry about that.
No problem. And my second post was not meant as a rebuttal, either. You raised two issues that gave me the chance to elaborate. So: thanks.
Hello what did we learn about her chacacter during the trial --she's been illegally billing her stockholders for personal trips.
If we want officers of public corporations to have consistent values then we have to enforce consistently. The woman has been a broker and was the Board of the NY Stock Exchange --not a victim
chris/tx - you can tell by my promiscuous vocabulary - eh?
LOL
Martha's profit from ImClone insider trading: +/- $51,000.
GWBush's profit from Harken insider trading: +/-$800,000.
Kenny Boy is still walking around, but methinks it's getting uncomfortable. His predecessor Jeffrey Skilling has been indicted and Andy Fastow and his wife pled out.
The noose is tightening.
Martha wasn't convicted because of her politics or her gender, or because she's wealthy. She was convicted based on the evidence aginst her.
And one count was dismissed for lack of evidence, a major embarassment for the U.S. Attorney's office.
Yes, she was convicted. The real question is: why was she prosecuted on such minor charges in the first place? Clearly they didn't have the evidence for the serious charge (securities fraud). Why bother with the rest?
Relentless justice? or publicity, notoreity, sending some people a message?
If it was a message, who's supposed to get it? Wealthy women who head their own companies? Because Ken Lay is still sleeping comfortably.
Martha's crimes were small potatoes comparatively. Where she fucked up was in lying. If she'd just told the feds the truth, chances are this would have all gone away with a plea and a fine. It was incredibly stupid of her to lie about it - the cover up will do it every time.
"My bad. Clearly, someone pissed in your Dasani this morning.
As for the rest of your tripe, dave says it best when he says:
ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz"
Exactly. Why be mature about it? Just do what will make you feel a part of your little cocoon and forget that you're being dishonest and immature.
I tell you something -- if you don't like people responding to what you write, perhaps you should consider not writing. You said something I disagreed with, and I expressed that disagreement. I know you want to think it's more than that, but it isn't.
Luckily, you're part of a dying breed of "liberals" that just doesn't focus on areas which would do us all some good.
You're like a Christian that thinks the sole requirement to being "good" is being part of the right group. It's why progressive causes get their knees cut out time and again -- because of the hostility towards money, business, economics, finance, etc, and the hypocrisy that comes out when you denigrate others' behavior selectively.
But, hey, it's apparently all wasted on you. Your only interest is in perpetuating who you think you are -- nothing else.
If we want officers of public corporations to have consistent values then we have to enforce consistently.
Starting with the information in the post by "jacuma," above, let's have a full discussion of "enforce consistently," shall we?
"Relentless justice? or publicity, notoreity, sending some people a message?"
Probably all of that above.
Tena - Actually I expected something more visual like you were going to cut his balls off with a rusty knife and then shove them down his throat for an appetizer if he ever posted as you again. Guess since it is Friday you were feeling generous in only calling him a fucker.
OT: to vote on which issue you think will be (has been?) dubya's undoing, go to:
http://xnerg.blogspot.com/
and scroll down towards the bottom watching for it on the right side. List of choices include economy, gay marriage, awol, etc.
sorry i don't know how to post links, you'll have to cut and paste into your address window.
But I have to agree that prosecuting Martha when Ken Lay is walking around looks terribly political to me. And if she gets a sentence that is anything longer than the one that Skilling got, I'll really be mad.
The brownshirts are trying to shut off all money, and all crtitisicm of Bush. It is all part of the plan.
Lobbyisits are being told to stop giving to the democrats. Advertisers are being encouraged not to support left leaning publications. Anyone on the air who bashes Bush will be taken down. And liberal adds are being pulled in the name of 'standards'
In the mean time Kenny boy walks free, along with those that leak cia agents names to the media.
It is all so obvious, but how many Americans will see it?
chris/tx - If I ever catch someone who is posting with my name, I will cut off his balls if in fact it is person so endowed. I'll turn his balls into earrings and pierce his ears and hang them there.
If it's a woman, she better not be too fond or her teeth or her hair.
IT'S MY NAME.
So I presume this is just the beginning for Martha's ordeal...I suppose next we have sentancing on these charges. But now since guilt has been established with regard to obstruction in the SEC proceedings, the SEC can probably charge her with the actual insider trading.
Tena - Look who is trolling this thread.
Three guesses as to who is posting under your handle and the first two don't count. It's not a woman, though that's who it focuses almost exclusively on.
"Exactly. Why be matu...."
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
CNN announced that she would not go to a country club, but a real honest-to-goodness federal pen. If true, why?
Where did Milliken spend his vacation?
Martha's fuckup was not immediately doing a little mea culpa dance without admitting anything, saying as the head of a major corporation and being on the board of the NYSE she has to avoid any appearance of inpropriety. She could have immediately put the $44k profit along with a self imposed fine, say make it an even $100k and ask the SEC how do I make good (or make this go away). She would have got a little slap, maybe have to resign her seat on the NYSE. Instead she took the GWB attitude of never admit anything. She ended up costing herself hundreds of millions, and billions to her stockholders due to her hard headed attitude. If I was a stockholder, I would have been mighty pissed. She put herself above the stockholders, and that is unforgivable from any CEO.
Mr. Anonymous sez:
"You would have her wealth be a factor in her punishment. That is, if someone of your limited means did it, they should receive less punishment, just because Stewart worked her ass off to become a success? Made all kinds of sacrifices that you would never be able to stomach making?"
Geezus. You can start taking the Martha pictures off your bedroom wall now. Stewart "worked her ass off" to feed her super-inflated ego, the same ego which prevented her from realizing she could get busted for her actions. And do you really suppose that Martha got to where she is merely by being a "hard worker"? And that the only time she lied about her business dealings was just this once, and she happened to get caught?? That makes me laugh (although I pity your naivety). Martha earned her millions by being a ruthless asshole and guess what? she's going to jail for lying to cover up her greed. Good riddance!
I wonder if the torch-and-pitchfork crowd would really tolerate a pardon of Kenneth Lay.
Not in California!
Dancing Egg must be embarassed about some things he's said in the past, or he wouldn't be trolling under the name "Hat."
pie - are you kidding me? That's really outrageous. I'm not all that crazy about Martha, but there's no excuse for sending her someplace other than a federal minimum security white collar facility. They shouldn't send her to any facility, for all love. Let the woman pay a fine, maybe give her probation - but lock her up? That is wrong. And to say that they would put her in anything other than a white collar min. sec. lockup - that's just awful.
IT'S MY NAME.
Tena | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 5:37 pm | #
Now don't go getting any strange notions that I'm the scallywag who did that, but you basically hang a big sign around your neck when you say things like that. So, either you're oblivious to the reaction that's almost certainly going to happen, or you actually get a thrill out of the whole affair.
And, really, is "Tena" your name? Do you have your first name registered with the USPTO or something?
Pity the poor person actually named Tena who comes along and innocently posts something here. It's like you expect new people to have some Godlike pre-knowledge of who posts under what name etc etc.
Lighten up, please. Let your ideas speak for themselves. People were paying you compliments that the distinction was obvious.
She put herself above the stockholders, and that is unforgivable.
Ha! Just like how many others...
I think that's one of the first rules newbie CEO's learn.
The only positive about this is that it is essentially out of the media limelight, and as soon as Peterson, Dru, and Jackson are too, the sooner Fox News has nothing to report on other than Democrats attacks on Bush, and that will draw attention to the facts behind the attacks and give them exposure we hope will cause people to think.
MYOB'
.
"Geezus. You can start taking the Martha pictures off your bedroom wall now."
I don't really care for Martha Stewart. Unlike probably everyone here, I've actually met her. Didn't even know who she was until someone mentioned it to me later.
" Stewart "worked her ass off" to feed her super-inflated ego"
Ah, yes, the "ego" argument. It's the same one that goes towards Nader. Because, as everyone knows, there isn't a person here, or any Democrat for that matter, with an "ego". Yes, she did it all for "ego" -- not because she's a human being with drive to do things well and succeed.
Really -- get over yourselves. Not everyone who succeeds in life is worthy of scorn, you know. I can't believe I'm defending Martha Stewart, but you lunatics are the kind of folks that would compel me to do so. Incredible.
" And do you really suppose that Martha got to where she is merely by being a "hard worker"?"
Yep. I have no doubt that she outworks every single person who posts here by a longshot. She certainly takes more risks, too. But, to you, that's all "ego" -- not drive for some goal.
"And that the only time she lied about her business dealings was just this once, and she happened to get caught??"
Oh, wait. Now it's a jailable crime to lie? Is that so? Well, well -- nice little world you want to live in. Are you saying that you've never lied?
"Martha earned her millions by being a ruthless asshole and guess what? she's going to jail for lying to cover up her greed. Good riddance!"
Yep -- and there's the unabashed envy and resentment, shown to all the world.
Gee - I wonder why Democrats keep losing elections when 85% of the country is middle class on down. I wonder why...
Tena,
Do you think she will be used as an example of how lefties are willing to go light on crime if she is sent to a minimum security prison, or is given a hefty fine instead?
I for one think she would be used as proof that Democrats are soft on crime if she is given anything other than the required minimum sentence for whatever she did.
There is also the chance Democrats can use her sentence as power enough to go after the heavy rightwingers who are doing the same, but for yet to be either fined or jailed.
MYOB'
.
Texan Emb'd by Bush, etc. - problem with a multiple choice poll like that is there isn't just one thing that will sink him. I didn't go to the web site - do they let you vote for "all of the above"?
Martha's fuckup was not immediately doing a little mea culpa dance without admitting anything
--Chris/Tx
Chris, you're right. This started off as a little allegation about insider trading by the SEC, where it seemed like they were really going after Stewart to get to Waksal. It seems a lot of the insider trading cases get settled with a fine, a promise to never do 'it' again, and not even an admission of wrong doing. I don't think that a settlement without an admission of guilt would have severly affected her empire, but obstruction and false statements probably will.
Martha is going to jail for lying to the government? Hmmm, how many here have ever done that? Hmmm?
"Honestly officer, I couldn't possibly have been going that fast."
The real question is, can we the public ever hold the government accountable for lying to us?
Let's take a survey --
How many of you know or have met a top executive from a major corporation? Anyone?
"Stewart, who became a self-made billionaire by building a homemaking how-to empire...."
ABC News 20/20, Nov. 5, 2003
"No, making mention that she's a "billionaire" (which she isn't by the way, but you're not known for using language precisely)..."
Anonymous, 5:13 pm
She's no longer a billionaire because of the scandal of her own making, which caused her stock prices to fall. The point remains that she was a billionaire when she threw caution to the winds for a measly $50K.
But you're still an asshole.
If hackery were a crime, Kaus would be on death row.
MYOB - Actually, I think it's more likely that it's a statement that corporate crime won't be tolerated - which would go down much better if in fact Ken Lay was indicted, and if Skilling hadn't gotten what I consider a pretty light sentence.
I think Martha is being used for PR. I don't care for her, I think she was wrong, and I'm not making excuses for her at all when I say she shouldn't be sent to a non-minimum facility. Most white collar criminals are sent to country club prisons.
And she didn't do it by baking cookies--she did it through a publishing empire which she bought and sold and bought.
Once a broker always a broker
Ah, yes, coming back for more punishment, I see.
You said she is a billionaire, not she was a billionaire, and you don't realize how laughably pathetic it is for you to say to me "you obviously have poor reading comprehension skills"? Oh, my.
An hour and a half ago you said you "don't care" what I think, yet here you are, relishing all the attention and analysis.
You're an open book, dear. Be better.
LOU DOBBS TONIGHT QUICKVOTE
Do you believe Martha Stewart should serve prison time?
I'm more outraged about Bill Gates pimping for "stamps" for email.
I'm sure he has no plan for M$oft getting a piece of the action, oh no...
SMTP is just a bad design. It's only logical that the sender, not the recipient, should bear the cost of the message.
The thing that I find outrageous here is that the USPS didn't come up with a similar scheme years ago.
Please, please, please don't make me come out and defend Bill Gates on Eschaton. I mean, Jesus, the man has committed more than half his net worth to charity, what do you want?
MYOB - I'll give you an example of what I mean about who gets sent where -
right out of school I worked for a lawyer who defended people mainly in federal courts. We represented a doctor who had been trading prescriptions for narcotics for sex with a number of patients. He bargained a 5 year sentence in a very minimum security federal joint.
Waksal, by the way, got a sentence of 7 years in a minimum security prison (Schylkill).
Tena, et al...
It was Fastow, the former CFO, who pled out. Skilling has yet to be tried.
Btw, Tena: You rock.
"We've caught a witch, may we burn her?"
"How do you know she is a witch?"
"She looks like one!"
"Did you dress her up like this?"
"No, no, no, yes, a bit, a bit. She has got a wart. She turned me into a newt."
"A newt?"
"It got better."
"There are ways of telling whether she is a witch. What do you do with witches?"
"Burn 'em! Burn 'em!"
"And what do you burn apart from witches?"
"More witches!"
Steve Madden is in a minimum security prison in Florida, too. Shouldn't all nonviolent offenders be in minimum security prisons?
Oops, make that "you're still a pedantic asshole."
[dance superior Church Lady dance]
TOLJA SO! TOLJA SO!
James Cramer was so right. He called this last summer.
Which is why, a few months from now, a jury — I have served on juries and know the truth to that, too) — will deliver a verdict that will shock everyone except her lawyers, who must have known the moment that Martha confused them with PR people that she was going down for the count.
Now where’s everyone last week who was whining and who doubted us when we said she would be convicted? Crow’s on us ...
[/dance superior Church Lady dance]
Martha ought to go to FPC Alderson---low security level federal women's prison---her security level should not be high enough for Danbury (although it is closer to home so her pals could come visit). Lots of women from DC court system there as well as most low level offenders from the East. Alderson looks like a college campus, no walls, no fences, beautiful setting---in the mountains on the river---that said---I get to go home at the end of the days I spend there---she won't get to--- a prison is a prison no matter how "easy" it seems (and I'm not sure she'll look so good in the khaki colored uni)
Jacuma - you're sweet and you're right - I get my Enron players mixed up - I guess there should be a play book.
Tena - a set of trading cards, like BushCo made for Iraq, would help us keep all the Enron crooks straight.
She'll make some more money on the book and movie deal.
Oops, full quote should read:
Worse, she ... concoct[ed] a stupid story about a stop-loss order that triggered her sale of ImClone stock, and then telling a bunch of people about it, all of whom have no protection from prying prosecutors because there is no “public-relations person–client” privilege, or “junior-assistant person–client” privilege. Martha Stewart treated her lawyers as underlings and her underlings as lawyers!
And for that, I predict, Martha Stewart will be convicted of obstruction of justice — a much more serious crime than insider trading in the eyes of the prosecutors — and she will go to prison.
[...]
Prosecutors care about the process. They care about the integrity of the process. They care that the defendant plays by the rules. They are lied to all the time. It drives them bonkers. It makes them wild with anger. They would sooner look the other way at a million-dollar tough-to-prove insider-trading case, or even a $20 million insider-trading case, than pass up the chance to bust someone who has fabricated a story and lied to them.
[...]
[A] few months from now, a jury — which is certainly not of her peers (I have served on juries and know the truth to that, too) — will deliver a verdict that will shock everyone except her lawyers, who must have known the moment that Martha confused them with PR people that she was going down for the count.
The post from "tena" refering to the Pilger column today concurs exactly with the experience I had at the local Dem. caucus as the sole Dean delegate. Among my precinct group of 15 people there was not one (except me) who would condemn the Iraq war.
It's just not manly to oppose war. Any war, and war in general.
And that is about what it came down to. As a male, you must alway's extoll war. And you can bolster your position by refering to any number of movies or TV shows.
And I have known several people named Tena. All of them wonderful people.
It was a depressing spectacle.
Anonymous:
You have now taken up a goodly portion of this thread with making personal attacks on other posters in which you tell them what their psychological problems are, coupled with charges of "personal attacks" when people respond to you in kind.
The point of this thread is Martha Stewart. If you have comments to make about that which do not hinge on amateurish psychoanalytic attacks on other posters, I suggest you make them, and leave it at that.
Tena -- I do not know why the troll chooses to post under your name, but rest assured we can tell the difference. Psychoanalyzing that particular long-time troll, it almost certainly has to do with some sort of sexual disfunction.
Any thread about Martha Stewart is going to bring out the trolls. Especially after such a long string of things they'd rather not talk about, like the CIA agent who was outed for political revenge, the appalling and continuing loss of jobs, etc. Guess we know which network they get their news from.
Jennifer - Perfect. The entire Enron debacle is complex. But it all boils down to one huge scam that has had such far reaching consequences that if any white collar criminals merit hard time in a max security facility, it's the Enron criminals.
Please, please, please don't make me come out and defend Bill Gates on Eschaton. I mean, Jesus, the man has committed more than half his net worth to charity, what do you want?
As someone who has had to make a living working around his, ahem, "products"?
The other half.
Quote:
You're an open book, dear. Be better.
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 6:00 pm
dang, jennifer -- must've showed no mercy if it still makes anonymous spit after all this time.
Mooser - And I know a number of very manly men who opposed the Iraq War.
I am kind of surprised at your experience at the Democratic caucus. It is a disappointing and depressing situation to contemplate.
"Gee - I wonder why Democrats keep losing elections when 85% of the country is middle class on down. I wonder why...
Anonymous"
You wonder why the serves keep voting the Knights back into their Castles? Really?
Let's take a survey --
How many of you know or have met a top executive from a major corporation? Anyone?
I have, so what?
BTW, Tom P. thanks.
The Other Sarah - that head-case has had a boner on for me for about 3 months now. I wish Haloscan had an "ignore" feature so I wouldn't even have to wade through its tripe.
Anon you ludicrous turd, you're cracking me up.
"Unlike probably everyone here, I've actually met her. Didn't even know who she was until someone mentioned it to me later."
Yeah and the odds are just astronomicalthat someone on this list would have met a woman who has routinely, for years, appeared with small business owners on her TV program. Guess what: she seemed nice enough in person.
"Yes, she did it all for "ego" -- not because she's a human being with drive to do things well and succeed."
I never said she "did it all for ego." Your implicit claim that the difference between a billionaire like Martha (was) and most of the rest of us can be attributed to "work ethic" makes me laugh. I don't give a fuck how hard Martha worked. She broke the law, lied about it like the greedy idiot she is, and now she's going to pay for it. That's a good thing.
"Really -- get over yourselves. Not everyone who succeeds in life is worthy of scorn, you know."
You ludicrous turd. No one yhere said that everyone who succeeds in life is worthy of scorn. Unless of course you define "succeed" as achieving such power that one is above the law. Martha appears not to have succeeded but rather failed miserably in her attempt. Good news! I'm glad she's going to jail. Maybe she'll be changed when she comes out like many people are. I'm guessing not, however, because she probably has surrounded herself by ludicrous turds like yourself.
I can't believe I'm defending Martha Stewart, but you lunatics are the kind of folks that would compel me to do so. Incredible.
" I have no doubt that she outworks every single person who posts here by a longshot. She certainly takes more risks, too."
Bwahahaahahaahha. You really are a shamefully ludicrous turd. Where did you find all our timesheets? That's just hilarious. Ridiculous, but not surprising coming from a ludicrous turd like you.
"Are you saying that you've never lied?"
Nope. I'm not saying that. But I will say that I never lied when it was criminal to do so, you ludicrous turd. That's why I'm not in jail like Martha will be. Where she belongs. Perhaps one day she'll be taking a crap in her prison cell and she'll look into the toilet and see a ludicrous turd there. Like you.
"Yep -- and there's the unabashed envy and resentment, shown to all the world."
Why would I envy Martha? She's been shown to be a lying creep who cares about very little except money and her own little empire. I envy Jimmy Page. He has a lot of money too plus he can play the guitar and has a great collection of Aleister Crowley books. You've probably met him. In fact I know that you did. I spoke to Jimmy last week and he said he met this ludicrous turd that kept bragging about meeting Martha Stewart.
How many of you know or have met a top executive from a major corporation? Anyone?
Anonymous
Right here.
Several. Worked with some of them regularly for years.
What's your point?
A NYT reporter on NewsHour just said that she would be surprised if sentencing even took place on June 17th.
"Oops, make that "you're still a pedantic asshole.""
Gee, look -- you know how to say "asshole" 8 times in a row. You're how old again?
hnyuck hnyuck, i'm going to write ten paragraphs that essentially boil down to "i know you are but what am i? neener neener!" and then sign it 'anonymous'.
back on-topic, i never felt that martha stewart in any way ever represented liberalism - if anything there's something oddly reaganesque-retro about her home-baked-granola handmade-greeting-card persona. seeing her take the fall means little symbolically. REALISTICALLY what her getting convicted represents is a small mousehole in the armor of unbridled capitalism that has operated above the law so successfully for so many years. a good example of how some liberals view her is my wife, who liked her company's ideas enough that she bought a bunch of her magazines at a yard sale...but never would have subscribed and paid full price.
the trolls have to come over here and piss on the wall - they lost howard stern!
now it's MY turn to go 'neener, neener, neener'...
"The point of this thread is Martha Stewart."
Yes, and I pointed out that I think it childish to analyze this case on the basis of envy and resentment. Did the person I spoke with have anything to say about that other than crying "asshole!" fifty times over? No.
If you want to just parrot the GOP line that the media is spewing to you, go right ahead.
"She's a bitch! She's greedy! She deserves it!" That sells really well with class-envy liberals with an aversion to anything that has to do with financial success (unless, of course, it's their own, in which case it's just fine). The irony, of course, is that Martha's a good liberal, liked by people like Paul Newman, yet somehow you all swallow the line fed you by the powers-that-be. Then, you have the audacity to call me or anyone a "troll" for telling you to snap out of it and wake up?
Give me a break.
OT: Carter, way up there you said: "Still waiting for a Bush team investigation of the Republican Election Committee in Washington state..." I'm in Washington -- what'd they do?
"Tena -- I do not know why the troll chooses to post under your name"
Ah, yes -- I knew that was coming. "The" troll -- the "singular evil".
Do you have no shame with repsect to doing exactly as I predicted you would?
Yes -- there's just me, and I'm a TROLL, and I'm out to get you and ALL LIBERALS (even though I'm one) and everything that ever goes wrong here, or in the world for that matter, is of course my fault.
It must be Friday.
Gee, look - you know how to count all the way up to 8. You're how old again?
"feminist corporatist, Joe Lieberman-style Democrat. "
Martha (Kostyra) Stewart started life as a blue-collar Polish-American. Knowing her views, I was astonished to find out that she was a Democrat. She's not even much of a feminist; she's more like those 19th century women who made fortunes operating in "women's sphere" while firmly endorsing the separation from "men's world." Well, one of her homes is in Westport, so I suppose she at least has an appropriate Senator. My theory is that Joe and Martha are DINO's for the same reason as my uncles: tradition. Back in the day, if one was "ethnic" like Lieberman Sr., Grandpa Sisi, and Papa Kostyra, only the Democrats wanted anything to do with you. So they raised their kids Democratic, even though they're actually conservative.
"Right here.
Several. Worked with some of them regularly for years.
What's your point?"
How big was the company?
Define "worked with regularly".
How high up were they?
About how much money did they make?
Were you friends with any of them outside of work?
Anyone who broad-brushes "evil CEOs" obviously has never gotten around much. If you have, then you know my point.
"Gee, look - you know how to count all the way up to 8. You're how old again?"
Yes, you can play the Parrot Game very well, Jenny. Now go suck on your chocolate milk then take a nap, OK? We'll play with Tinker Toys when you wake up.
The Other Sarah - that head-case has had a boner on for me for about 3 months now.
You wish. I first encountered you about two weeks ago. That's when you were ranting about underpants or some other gibberish. Apparently this "victim of the male troll" thing is a pattern with you. Hence, I suggested you submit your writings to your shrink for analysis, because he or she will tell you exactly what I've been saying.
You're one sad, lonely, old chick.
Anon, the ludicrous turd, wrote:
"The irony, of course, is that Martha's a good liberal, liked by people like Paul Newman ..."
Is Martha a "good" liberal? No. She's a lying convicted felon but the ludicrous turd can't stop defending her, in spite of the turd's own surprise at doing so. What does Paul Newman have to do with the ludicrous turd's bizarre allegations about how hard we bloggers work? Nothing of course. But the ludicrous turd looks so angry lying alone in the sun, his glistening brown coat studded with undigested kernels of Old Time Picture Show popcorn. Pity him.
Oh, for Christ's sake. I think I just put 100,000 miles on my scrollwheel odometer getting through paragraphs and paragraphs of armchair psychiatric malpractice and arch, bullshit, increasingly childish put-downs. I hope at least ONE person here (who shall apparently remain nameless) is having fun.
"Yeah and the odds are just astronomicalthat someone on this list would have met a woman who has routinely, for years, appeared with small business owners on her TV program. Guess what: she seemed nice enough in person."
See? You tell the truth, and people don't believe you. And did I say she was "nice"? I believe I said just the opposite, but you're not paying attention. Shocking.
The rest of your screed is unworthy of response, unless one prefers making fecal references over and over.
Any adults here tonight?
Oh, please, asshole (can you count to 9?), you made an assumption that the case was being "analyzed" on the basis of envy and resentment. And did so not by saying "I think you're analyzing this on a basis of envy and resentment" but by way of making a personal attack.
I don't envy anyone whose lust for filthy lucre would cause them to jeopardize their freedom and a billion dollar personal fortune for $50K. I wouldn't do it. I don't cheat on my taxes, either, not because I'm likely to be caught but because it's illegal. Martha knew damn well what she was doing was illegal; as others have pointed out, she was on the board of NYSE. As for her being "greedy", you could if you so chose posit an alternate explanation for why she did what she did. Personally, I can't see one that would cause someone to risk everything that she risked for such a measly return.
"She deserves it!" Well, uh, damn straight she deserves it. As already pointed out, she knew she was breaking the law. People who are poor or middle class also get convicted when they break the law, and they too deserve it. Where's the "envy" in that?
As for the folks here having an "aversion to anything to do with financial success", who knows where the hell you get that. I haven't seen anyone on this thread talking about how "evil" Warren Buffet, George Soros, Ted Turner, etc etc etc are.
Finally, I met Sam Walton once in the early 80s. Not only that, but I thought he seemed like a nice man, and he did a helluva job building his company. I don't much care for the way it is being run now that he's gone, but he seemed like a decent man. Does that count as a "corporate exectutive", you shit-spewing twit?
Anonymous, not only have I met Martha Stewart, I even contributed a minor idea to her Christmas book. I used to be a lesser wheelhorse in the SF food mafia. I met her in the early 80's when we were both mere mortals, and again in the 90's when I was part of the Chez Panisse entourage. She was perfectly pleasant the first time, but in the later phase she showed up drunk at my place of employment, and was very abusive to the staff because our boss wasn't there. Why should he have been? She hadn't called for an appointment(unlike Julia Child, who was a mensch.) I was sorry to see what had become of her in fifteen years.
The ludicrous turd who prefers namelessness wrote:
""And did I say she was "nice"? I believe I said just the opposite, but you're not paying attention."
I am paying attention. All I said was she seemed nice when I met her. Maybe she didn't seem nice to you because she thought you were a ludicrous turd.
Oh, please, asshole...
Grow up.
And did so not by saying "I think you're analyzing this on a basis of envy and resentment" but by way of making a personal attack.
Ha! Go back to what I said. Why are you lying? You are resentful and envious, and I shared that observation. You were attacking Martha Stewart like a raving lunatic, then you think somehow you are aboce reproach? Please, get a grip. I know how hard it is for you to compare your unachieved existence to others who have done well, but could you keep it to yourself and maybe drink yourself to death instead?
"I don't envy anyone whose lust for filthy lucre"
SEETHING with scorn and envy and resentment. My God. "Lust for filthy lucre"?? This is hilarious.
" I haven't seen anyone on this thread talking about how "evil" Warren Buffet, George Soros, Ted Turner, etc etc etc are."
Probably because it's a thread about Martha Stewart, not welathy people in general. You of course know that Soros has committed much greater crimes than Stewart, right? Oh, wait. Your boob tube didn't feed that to you yet.
"you shit-spewing twit?"
Nice mouth. It's interesting to see that come from a "Christian" like yourself. Does God like such language? Does your mother?
I also find it funny that you admire Sam Walton, the man who devastated small-town commerce. But hey -- he's from your hick state, and he charmed you, so he's "okay", right?
I hope you realize how much I enjoy peering inside the psyches of people like you. I share these threads with other people and they really get a kick out of them, seeing how you lay yourself so bare, and how brazenly self-unaware you are.
BTW, Yasujiro, you are cracking my shit up! Maybe in the next post Anon will reply by counting up the number of times you've said "ludicrous turd." He likes to count, you know.
Yasujiro Ozu | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 7:03 pm | #
Oh, it's my fan, in today's "outfit". I should have known.
There's always a troll like you on any discussion board -- attacking other people as trolls, when in reality, you're probably the biggest and most long-term instigator here.
Bye, now. Take on another name.
Jennifer | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 7:05 pm | #
Birds of a feather...
"in the 90's when I was part of the Chez Panisse entourage"
What's the scoop with Alice? Good, bad, somewher in between?
"bullshit, increasingly childish put-downs. I hope at least ONE person here (who shall apparently remain nameless) is having fun."
Yes, Jennifer and the troll sure have filthy little mouths, don't they?
Sorry for the diversion, but somehow I bring these kinds of creatures out of the woodwork. Be glad that I am, so now you know to avoid people like Jennifer, kei&yuri (and his many other names).
Anonymous thinks he's a great intellect, but he's really just a bag lady mumbling incoherently under a bridge.
Oh yeah, and he also has a "nicely rounded, quite feminine ass."
All gathered from the first thread where his boner for me reared its pitiful little head, in mid-November.
You remember that, don't you dear? When you first confessed that your only purpose in posting to these threads is to "ridicule" others?
By the way, you stupid asshole (10! 10! Can you count to 10?) with your reference to my "hick state" you just outed yourself as the very same asshole (11!) I first encountered in November. Now impress us all by posting the incorrect vitae you assembled on me back then.
You pathetic little sack of dogshit.
This thread is dead, long live the new thread.
Oh yeah...
Mystery Date, I'm ready for my Mystery Date...
Hey, 'nonnie, if you're a Liberal, I'm a freaking Argyle sock.
Isn't it craptastic when people come here expressly for the purpose of stirring up shit and then feel they must reply, at GREAT length, to every single solitary comment made about them?
Atrios -- you might want to just go ahead and rename this thread "The Ego Of Anonymous" to save readers some time.
Look. If Martha did the time, she should do the crime. Along with all the other corporate criminals out there. What's good for the goose....
Anyway, I'm annoyed because SHE appropriated MY name.
Jennifer: just let anon feed his own ego. Don't reply because sooner or later he'll be driven to using all our names and replying to himself.
Anon: I'm curious. Just how many keyboards DO you go through a week with your online masturbatorial frenzies? Can I find you in a Plushie chat room, too? You seem the type....which mascot do you like best, huh? Whose fur is it you'd like to sniff and rub?
Craptastic. I like it.
Ah, yes -- I knew that was coming. "The" troll -- the "singular evil".
My apologies. You are not "the" troll; I was referring to "the" troll who regularly posts here under womens' names, in some bizarre Internet equivalent of trying on their underwear.
You, on the other hand, are merely an ass and a blowhard. You have devoted the entire thread to making personal attacks on other posters, then feign outrage and amateur psychological interest at the "childishness" of people attacking you in kind.
I hope you realize how much I enjoy peering inside the psyches of people like you. I share these threads with other people and they really get a kick out of them, seeing how you lay yourself so bare, and how brazenly self-unaware you are.
And there, finally, we have the admission of the obvious truth; your posts are not attempts at debate or expressions of conviction, but merely belligerent arm-waving for the sake of the argument, of a sort well-known to most of us familiar with the pre-web Internet. You are just here for an argument; any ostensible topic will do.
So I take it back; you apparently are a troll, of the most common and utterly banal sort. Like a loud, belligerent drunk at a party, standing six inches from other people's faces and listing the ways in which they should better themselves in your reddened eyes.
And, as an aside, I do not believe you share these threads with anyone. First, because "peering inside the psyches" of anonymous posters on a website, based solely on an evaluation of their willingness to pick a completely virtual fight with you, is fairly weak, in the hobby department. Second, because I cannot imagine anyone so easily impressed as to be even remotely interested in your mock and petty battles in cyberspace.
Troll feeding is now over.
This has been a huge story all over the world, yet if you travel five minutes outside the United States no one has heard of her. It's like the OJ Simpson case.
That'll teach those Democratic supporters from playing the stock market like a Republican!
i never much cared for her 'home ec' class, but the fact that she got convicted before 'kenny boy' pisses me off.
Anyone who thinks justice was served by this prosecution should stand around, ears open, by any tee at any golf course at any country club in this country for 20 or 30 minutes sometime. That Imclone trade may not have been the first stock deal ever done not strictly by the book.
Course, she is a woman and a Democrat. What was she thinking?!
Anonymous:
I've met and worked with many top executives from major corporations. What's your point?
"Hey, 'nonnie, if you're a Liberal, I'm a freaking Argyle sock."
Nice to meet you, Argyle Sock.
My apologies. You --
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...
I don't b-b-be axing B-Bill Cosby next time fo no character witness. That's fo sho.
You pathetic little sack of dogshit.
Do you speak like that in church? Do you kiss your grandmother with that mouth?
You're just One Big Angry -- that pretty much sums it up. And I know for sure in your "real life" people can't put up with your banality, self-absorbtion, and general resentment towards life, because you turned out a failure.
What can you do. You've found your "tent" and your very happy cowering here and feeling like you can behave however you wish, because no one will call you on it, and if someone does (and apparently I'm not the first), you can just try your infantile tactics of deligitimization and any number of equally asleep morons will come to your aid, for they, too, reside here, hiding from the world.
But, hey, at least it provides amusement, seeing you hold on to the "expensive Dasani" theory and the like. It's amazing what one little comment can do to set someone like you off.
I can see right through you and, boy, does that get you going.
Look. If Martha did the time, she should do the crime. Along with all the other corporate criminals out there.
Yes. And Yes. I still think she's in much better shape than reported today. Though she cannot use the patheticness of her defense on appeal, she can try to have some of the prosecution evidence thrown out.
But the real problem is that appeals continue to make this Martha, Martha, Martha. It's like OJ Simpson -- please, go away!
"Anyone who thinks justice was served by this prosecution should stand around, ears open, by any tee at any golf course at any country club in this country for 20 or 30 minutes sometime."
Yuck. No thanks.
"That Imclone trade may not have been the first stock deal ever done not strictly by the book."
Martha's not going to jail because she was the first person to lie about her stock dealings. She's going to jail because she broke the law, knew she broke the law, flagrantly lied about it, and got caught doing so. Good riddance to greedy people like her and good riddance to any of her buddies on the country club (men or women) who join her in jail. I hope they all go to jail. That's where greedy lying criminals belong.
"Course, she is a woman and a Democrat. What was she thinking?!"
She was thinking, "Oh my god I better sell this stock because otherwise I'll lose that money I was going to use to repair my private jet. Money money money. Golly I love money! Gee I hope I don't get caught breaking the laws relating to stock trading that I am fully aware of. But I don't want to lose ANY money. After all, I'm Marth Stewart, beloved by oh so many little people throughout this land and I've done all sorts of clever things before to get more money and to hide my money, often at the expense of the little people. Money money money money money...."
That's what she was thinking, kitty. And that's why she's going to jail. Where she belongs.
If gender equality is your concern, then consider that most white collar criminals in jail are men. Martha will be a welcome addition to that "boy's club." I don't think they'll care much whether she's a Democrat or Republican. They'll know only that she is a greedy lying felon just like them!
That's quite interesting dear. I'm sure we're all very impressed with your psychic abilities. Miss Cleo's got nuthin' on you, girlfriend!
Jennifer | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 8:33 pm | #
Wow, for someone who "doesn't care what I think", you sure spend a lot of time (4 hours this time around) paying attention to what I think.
But, you're not exactly known for your honesty or integrity, so this is unremarkable.
Alone on a Friday night again? Still busy making up stories?
Do you have a job?
Can someone spare $100 bucks? I need to make a downpayment on a 20oz Dasani.
So Martha is guilty--so what? She made a lousy $51 G's and can be sent to prison for 10 years...Fastow got 10 years and gets to KEEP $15 million dollars of his ill-gotten gains...a double-standard? Martha being made an example? Just publicity? all of the above? Her problem, she's not into oil, energy or communications.
"How many of you know or have met a top executive from a major corporation? Anyone?"
Besides a couple of my former bosses (CEO's of Wells Fargo and Bank of America), there was my shifty uncle (Citizen watches, etc.). My mother testified at his trial, but he walked anyway.
One college classmate founded Inktomi, and another is a big wheel with Apple.
I used to be a corporate banker, then I quit in disgust and joined Alice, who is inspirational, but ditsy. One thing I remember about the "mahogany row" set is their matchless sense of entitlement. They feel above both civility and the law. As I said, I think this is what happened to Martha.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Hmm, I see. You find my post somehow not worth responding to, but you cannot help but continue your faux-psychological fictions towards, in this case, Jennifer. Or, sorry, your "peering inside the psyches", as you put it.
Kudos for learning the word "banal" from my post, though. At least we see you have read it. Your patterns in posting are... remarkably obvious, to say the least.
Hmm. You should be careful; there are some people on this board who know considerably more about psychology than you pretend to, and they are likely to use the opportunity to play with your mind a bit.
"I used to be a corporate banker, then I quit in disgust and joined Alice, who is inspirational, but ditsy. One thing I remember about the "mahogany row" set is their matchless sense of entitlement. They feel above both civility and the law. As I said, I think this is what happened to
Martha."
So your background was in business, or did you just sort of get into the field after working for awhile? The reason I ask all this is that I think it's dangerous to overgeneralize about certain groups of people. I have a great deal of respect for people who worked their way to the top, or were very inventive (like your classmate). In and of itself, I really wish more people had that kind of dedication and drive and persistence.
It's not to deny that there are executives out there who suck and are unbelievably greedy. But I honestly don't think greed has much to do with how rich you are -- only that it sometimes reflects how focused someone is in feeding their greed. Especially when you get to the top of the pile, so to speak, it's hard to chalk up their behavior to simply "greed", you know?
I'm not trying to be some apologist for "corporatists" or whatever people want to term them, it's just that when I deal with people from that class, they have biases towards "liberals", "workers", "government", "environmentalists", and the like, and I usually let them know that their views are skewed as well.
I don't know about you, but I'm very weary of this whole "choose a side" BS -- as if there were more than one side to be on other than the side of LIfe and working to make the world a better place and enjoy life in the process. Far too many of us sit around and stew on who are "enemies" are and how we're going to "get revenge" on them etc, and after awhile, we completely lose track of what the whole thing is about.
That's why I can come in here, and get called a "brownshirt", then turn around and go somewhere else and get called an "unrealistic communist" or whatever.
People like yourself really have a duty to cross those boundaries, and from the sound of it, you seem to be doing a great job of it. I really admire that.
Feeling "above civility and the law", senses of entitlement, greed, hypocrisy, and so on -- aren't we all subject to these things? What matters is what direction we're going with ourselves, right? Just sitting around and playing "you're worse than me" games gets us nowhere.
Anyway, are you still in the culinary field, or have you moved on to other things?
Hunter | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 8:57 pm | #
No, Hunter, I've just heard your little speech before and there's nothing there, buddy. I'm just skimming what you're writing at this point.
Sorry to break it to you.
No, Hunter, I've just heard your little speech before
Have you, now? Probably because they are your words, not mine. I'm merely repeating them back to you...
I hope you realize how much I enjoy peering inside the psyches of people like you. I share these threads with other people and they really get a kick out of them, seeing how you lay yourself so bare, and how brazenly self-unaware you are.
Setting aside the awkward post-teen angst implied by your "peering" and similar phrases, you yourself admit that you are here merely to do damage to the threads, and seek pleasure from the outcome.
Really? You have arguments with people because you gain pleasure from it? Is that really what you meant to say?
I think Jennifer is done rising to your bait, however, as have most of the rest of them. You might not get so lucky now that you have attracted a -- shall we say -- different kind of attention.
Are you beginning to understand how psychology works, yet, and what the danger to you might be?
This whole thread has been about you, and people's reactions to you. Fine. Let's talk about you.
Listen to these entitlement Libruls whine about the judicious and fair pardoning of Hitler, Speer, Ribbentropp, et al. What you stupid libruls fail to realize is, we got Female Cadet Schmidt!! Female Cadet Schmidt is what it's really about! Listen to you imagine white males who are ten times the scum Schmidt is be tried for anything. Don't you understand how these things work?
Isn't it great Martha's gone, so now Wall Street will be completely honest? Isn't it great Jayson Blair's tortured on-air by Peabody (or was it Pulitzer) winner Couric, so that now both NYT and NBC will be pure of outright lies? Isn't it great that we got Saddam now that we're done using him as proxy to murder? Why do you thik we will ever get the real criminals?
fun with ratios
man/{dog} biting=man/{bitch/nigger/nonzionist jew/etc}
or in a phrase, muttered through beer going stale and warming with tears,
IOKIYA[rich white male]
fuckers.
"Have you, now?"
Yes, that's what I said.
Usually they are an extended rant about how bad I am, how stupid I am, and also implicates me in all sorts of bizarre activities (wearing bras, calling people, and God knows what else). These things are also usually very angry and contain plenty of profanity more often than not.
Rarely, a person will actually address something I bring up. BUt if it was sensitive to begin with, then it's probably hopeless. I go through the process because I'm curious to see what comes out of it. Jennifer is one of the better ones at that, going to lenghts to deny that there's any logic to pricing on the Internet and so forth, in vain efforts to win a debate or defend her theories.
This thread is not about me, Hunter -- you're simply aping what Jennifer has said. It's about Martha Stewart's conviction, and if Jennifer wants to play the "demonize rich people because I'm a fucking penniless loser" game, then I will make note of it. That she'll go ballistic and start swearing like a sailor one sentence after using the vocabulary of a Bible thumper (on a "liberal" board, no less) -- well, that's her own little problem.
If you feel like talking about me, perhaps you might want to start from a basis other than one which asserts that I learn words like "banal" from some random dork on a message board.
But I highly doubt you have the capacity or intellectual courage to do that.
Yep, didn't think so.
How many of you know or have met a top executive from a major corporation? Anyone?
I used to work for an executive of a major defense firm. He had a girlfriend...we all cooperated to put his wife of the scent. He served on several boards--he and his friends swapped insider info regularly (in fact the same pool of people serve on all the boards in the USA...a bunch of generals, ex-senators, diplomats and high flyers. Note George Mitchell on Disney's board).
He didn't seem to have any particular talent...even his golf handicap was so-so. But he was a schmoozer.
nur al-cubicle | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 9:54 pm | #
So, let me get this straight -- infidelity, cutting corners to get ahead, lack of talent, and "so-so" golfing skills are unique to corporate executives?
Really - can we all get beyond "Dilbert"?
Jeez, I went out for -- how many hours, close to 3? And it's STILL pretty much All About Anon? How sad. Nah, on second thought, I can't even work up any sympathy.
First I insinuate that I'm the only person on the board who is in the "lofty" position of ever having met a corporate executive, and ask if anyone else ever has.
Then when several people mention that they have met or worked with corporate executives, I go into bitchy-queen mode and ridicule them for their observations.
It's just so involved being me.
Usually they are an extended rant...
OK, fine, but now you're getting defensive. You're talking about how people have been treating you badly on this board, how they hurl expletives, don't listen to what you are saying, etc. That's fine; that's valid.
It seems very unlikely the personal attacks bother you, however, since they are a staple of much of what you write. Nearly all of your posts, above, can be classified as personal attacks of dubious merit. Even in the same above paragraphs, Jennifer is a "fucking penniless loser"; I am a "dork" without "capacity or intellectual courage" -- an odd charge to make, given the context.
Before, in fact, you were reacting with pleasure to those same attacks. "I share these threads with other people and they really get a kick out of them, seeing how you lay yourself so bare, and how brazenly self-unaware you are."
That's pretty unambiguous. Which are we to believe? That you seek debate, or seek obscene confrontation? The two statements are opposed. It would seem you are either flatly lying about one, or the other.
Half the thread has been taken up by attacks between you and others. Like it or not, the thread is about you. Am I to understand that this is accidental -- that you could not diffuse the rhetoric, if you chose to? Despite your psychological knowledge, which provides tools for doing exactly that?
Jennifer does not have to play the role of "liberal", if she does not want to. She can swear, if she wants to. So can the others. So can you, and I. Civility is a choice.
If you want people to take your arguments seriously, I suggest one step: choose a name other than 'Anonymous'. A number of people post under 'Anonymous', and a few of them are purposefully obscene and profoundly offensive. If you seek debate on the arguments, allow people to identify your opinions with you, and not the amorphous "troll crowd" that tends to congregate under the "Anonymous" name. That will get you more points than any other act.
That is an action that would be extremely positive; continuing to do the same as now, while expecting better results, would be... unhelpful. If true, intellectual debate is wanted, you will find more than a few posters willing to do exactly that.
And now howabout Bush for Harken Energy Insider trading? Now would be a great time to press the point.
http://www.buzzflash.com/
perspec...ush_Harken.html
He should be impeached for this flat out!
Atrios,
Blast everyone on this board from posting again and let God sort it out.
Right Old Hat,
We got robbed in the recall. Bustamante was the guy that was prosecuting Enron to get our 9 Billion back. Also Ken Lay sits on the board of the Heinz Family Foundation, and Theresa Heinz environmental NGO along with Free Krupp advisor to Christie Whitman. It was Kerry's vote that overode a Clinton veto of a bill that took the rights os shreholders away so that companies like Enron, Citigroup, Global Crosings and the rest could run roughshod over the law! Serious!
There is a reason I won't vote for Kerry and it has nothing to do with not being a Democrat I have been all my life, but, I can't do it on principle.
[quote]
The issue is corporate accountability, a regular staple of Kerry's campaign rhetoric. "From Enron to WorldCom to the mutual fund scandals that have shaken the trust and savings of Americans, a widespread creed of greed on Wall Street has been met by a look-the-other way attitude in the Bush White House," Kerry said in another recent speech. "It's time our government sent a different message." Back in February, 2002, when former Enron CEO Ken Lay appeared before members of the U.S. Senate, Kerry was even more harsh: "Americans everywhere are shocked that you have no answer to explain how Enron executives escaped this sinking ship with their fortunes intact while thousands of everyday working Americans were left holding the bag, robbed of their retirement savings."
But Kerry shouldn't be shocked at all. Back in 1995, he backed a controversial measure that severely limited the ability of investors to sue companies engaged in fraudulent accounting practices--a legal change widely believed to have contributed to the accounting scandals of the last few years. The law, which consumer groups opposed vociferously precisely because they feared it would lead to white-collar crime, was part of Newt Gingrich's Contract With America. Yet Kerry voted for it anyway, not once but twice--the second time overriding a veto by President Clinton.
[end]
We got Gingrich Democrats! The DLC has killed this party IMHO.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=...nOzaQedxR%3D%
3D
Anonymous:
Are you studying to be a therapist?
You sound like my girlfriend's friend, who is in school to be a social worker or something, and she's always analyzing everybody. It kinda sucks.
I really want true intellectual debate, but no one who comes here can supply it. It must be because my god-like intelligence looms so large that it scares away the people who are as smart as I am. Which is why I come back here day after day and lurk in the shadows until one of my favorite targets appear. Then I wait for them to say even one thing. I take it out of context, twist the meaning of what they've said, and hold it up over my head to prove that they are stupid and I'm really smart. Attacking people who differ from me in any way makes me the uber-liberal.
Does God like such language? Does your mother?
Do you kiss your grandmother with that mouth?
Jennifer--Why is this asshole so fixated on you? Tell him to fuck off.
What is everybody arguing? I'm very sad. Martha's going to the pen.
can we all get beyond "Dilbert"?
I like Dibert. He's got those Neo-Pharisees down pat.
Um... should be "Dilbert", but you knew that.
"OK, fine, but now you're getting defensive. You're talking about how people have been treating you badly on this board"
No, you miss the point yet again. Jennifer made a stupid comment, I called her on it, then she started in on her usual tirade of personal insults, and I responded.
I'm done talking about this with you.
My, look at all the lovely names my fan has created to appear to be more than one person.
Trolls...
I see. So, rather than explain why you always seem to be involved in similar confrontations, with multiple people, and seem unwilling to do anything about it other than gloat about how much you enjoy it, you merely label me an "intellectual coward" without the "capacity" to engage you. It would appear that "Shorter Anonymous" was eerily prescient in his mocking of you, was he not?
Forgive me, but if you cannot engage in even that simple conversation without an emotional short-circuit, you are most certainly a coward, and not in the mere intellectual sense.
But the thread is indeed about you, which is what your original goal was, yes?
If someone does not engage me when I insult them out of the blue, I continue to insult them until they do. If they respond that I am too tedious to engage, I insult them for not indulging my sick need for confrontation and concurrent need to prove I am superior. If they indicate they are ignoring me by making no response at all, I continue to insult them. If anyone else points out that I am behaving like a horse's ass, I insult them as well, while continuing to insult and attack my original target.
Why does everyone hate me, when I am clearly so much better than everyone else?
My dad can beat up your dad.
No, seriously, my dad can beat the living tar outta your dad. Your dad is a pussy.
WTF?!?! YOUR DAD CANNOT BEAT UP MY DAD!!
I rock. Your dad sux. I will beat up you and your dad.
Hick: ROFL... y'know, if I get up tomorrow morning and this thread is STILL festering, I'm going to dump something mind-altering in my coffee. It'll be a good thing.
OMG PUNKASS BIYOTCH! I WILL KICK YOUR AND YOUR DADS ASS!
Troll's dad sux even worse than my dad or your dad
Too bad Troll's MOM didn't swallow. Retroactive birth control: sometimes also a good thing.
(It's late and I have no sense of propriety left.)
Shorter Anonymous; OK, those two were seriously funny.
Back, very belatedly, 300+ messages later, to the original thread, which was... um... Oh, Jeebus. Martha Stewart?? We were supposed to be talking about Martha freakin' Stewart???
I submit that if you have any opinion about Martha Stewart, you have way too much freakin' time on your hands. There, discuss.
I feel bad for Martha, but at least the investigation and trial are over. Now maybe the Feds can investigate the entire Bush administration.
All of your dads are pussies. And stupid. I could kick all of their asses, but I'm above that kind of thing. I start fights; I don't end them.
And also - your shit stinks really really bad, mine smells like potpourri.
Finished, little boy?
You're a pussy too. All of you are pussies. Everyone but me is a pussy. I'm a dick.
Apparently not.
Carry on, little loser. I know this is your life.
Oh, and keep posting. I need to harvest a little more information from you.
Please continue.
I need to harvest a little more information from you so I can call you a pussy. And tell you how I could kick your ass but won't. Because I'm above that type of thing, not because I'm a pussy. I'm not a pussy. I'm really not. I'm a dick.
Thanks for obliging, fool.
Continue.
What I found most shocking about this was how those interviewed outside the courthouse seemed to react to the verdict.
Aside from being shocked, most acted in a relieved manner. Like the way they would finding out a pedophile or rapist was being locked away for life.
The attitudes seemed misdirected.
As the field correspondent remarked. She only made about 50K out of this illegal activity. And there are times when a person can suspect something is amiss with the the company, decide that night to dump it, then find out that god must be looking out for you since you did it just in time for the crash.
It looks awfully suspicious on the outside, but it's really just natural instinct and some luck.
Not to say this is what happened with Stewart, I just think these kinds of prosecutions need to take into account the natural chance of such things rather than assume the worst of someone.
Afterall, it's not like she did an Enron on anyone?
MYOB'
.
What's the matter, little guy? Don't you have some more spews you just can't help but share?
I just need you to make one more post and that will be enough for our purposes.
I know you can't resist. Go ahead.
Now or later -- won't matter, really. So, anytime you want to show your little face again is fine.
Nighty night!
Oh, and keep posting. I need to harvest a little more information from you.
Oh, please. I nearly spit my coffee out when I read that. So now we continue on to meaningless, vacuous, absurd little threats? What information will you "harvest", exactly?
Please elaborate; as a professional I am eager to hear what fictional thing you can determine from his multiple comment-board postings. Given my job and staff, I assure you I will be well able to understand your no doubt ingenious analytical techniques.
Please continue! Dont leave me hanging here, I'm this close to orgasm!
You fucking bastard, get back here!
I'm going to start using the royal "our" now, because it makes us sound twice as smart. And we can post twice as fast with four hands.
Let the bitch burn.
how much money was involved in bush's harken insider trading?
Zeno's Confession
Thanks Zeno's, that was what I was hoping someone whould bring up. If M.S. is guilty for what she did how come yet another Bush brat gets off for making off with millions from a company his daddy's influence got for him to drive into the ground?
Let's remind all of Martha's millions of fans that she is being prosecuted because she made a donation to democrats and that Georgie and Niel Bush have never suffered for their grand scale theft and insider profiteering. I think we can count on Martha's fans to know the correct thing to do.
If someone does not engage me when I insult them out of the blue, I continue to insult them until they do. If they respond that I am too tedious to engage, I insult them for not indulging my sick need for confrontation and concurrent need to prove I am superior. If they indicate they are ignoring me by making no response at all, I continue to insult them. If anyone else points out that I am behaving like a horse's ass, I insult them as well, while continuing to insult and attack my original target.
Why does everyone hate me, when I am clearly so much better than everyone else?
Shorter Anonymous
This is a masterpiece. I'm saving a copy.
You liberal morons,
You pathetic liberal morons,
KEN LAY HAS NOT BEEN LET OFF THE HOOK...
THE FEDS ARE BUILDING A CASE AGAINST HIM....
THE BIGGER THE CASE, THE LONGER IT TAKES TO BUILD...
AND DON'T KEEP HARPING ABOUT HOW LITTLE MARTHA STOLE... YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH SHE STOLE OVER HER LIFE... YOU ONLY KNOW ABOUT THIS CASE....
You liberal morons,
You pathetic liberal morons,
KEN LAY HAS NOT BEEN LET OFF THE HOOK...
THE FEDS ARE BUILDING A CASE AGAINST HIM....
THE BIGGER THE CASE, THE LONGER IT TAKES TO BUILD...
AND DON'T KEEP HARPING ABOUT HOW LITTLE MARTHA STOLE... YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH SHE STOLE OVER HER LIFE... YOU ONLY KNOW ABOUT THIS CASE....
I'm not sharing in the orgy of schadenfreude. She did wrong, and there has to be sent a message about it, but I would like to see her sentenced to six months of community service, say in a soup kitchen, than some penitentiary.
Woo-hoo!
You know we've got the neo-Nazi trolls upset when they waste their time here.
I apologize for feeding the troll yesterday, everyone, but I presumed the thread was already far past shot by that point, and figured I would see what would happen if someone with an actual, as opposed to fictional, grasp of psychology tried to engage him on his supposed "terms". (As you can see, he wasn't keen on the notion.)
Can anyone tell me: does this troll primarily single out posters with women's names? If so, that makes at least four on these boards with the same general MO. I think you'd have to be pretty hard up to get sexual satisfaction from verbal assaults on virtual people you can only _presume_ to be women, but it seems to be a trend.
This is a masterpiece. I'm saving a copy.
I admit it, so am I. Anyone who can rile a troll so thoroughly as to almost instantly switch him from the "I'm just a poor misunderstood soul" into the hilarious "I'm secretly tapping your phone -- um, I mean keyboard!" -- routine gets bonus points from me. Thanks, Shorter.
(And I see from his "enough for our purposes" line that you broke his brain into multiple personalities. Again, well done.)
Thank you Hunter. I thought your posts scored a direct bulls-eye, by the way. cornfed hick and shorter cornfed hick get the award for most humorous posts. The main thing to remember about this particular troll is that he cannot stand being mocked from anonymity. He can dish it out but cannot take having his own tactics turned against him. The thing that really drives him over the edge is not being able to figure out who is mocking him. This causes him to dissolve into rash accusations against virtually anyone and everyone.
The sweetest part is that he still has no idea who it is. In spite of his information gathering claims, he never will. 
I've been at war with America's Memory in all his various guises since November and haven't gotten a single call. Has anyone? I'm feeling left out.
The Nader's nutters we're getting are so off the wall that it would take superhuman strength not to make fun of them. Zozobra? Now how can you resist an opening like that one?
Besides, some of them are professionals. They should be made to earn their ill gotten gain.
That was EPT by the way, using someone else's computer.
Okay, we couldn't get Hillary, but we did get Martha. I hope all you snotty blonde overachievers who turned me down for dates in high school learned from this.
Bitches.
Wasn't Martha a host of some significant Democratic party fund-raising events?
I had heard that, but never saw it confirmed.
Does anybody have any info on that?
That would shed some new light on the government's anxiousness to go after her.
Anyway, if she gets a year, Ken Lay should get life.
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