I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Don't switch horsemen mid-apocalypse?
Si or non?
Unless the attack is designed to delay election, or cancel them altogether.
I used to think people who said such things were not sensible, yet I am beginning to think it is not so far-fetched.
Could it be that the spanish actually demand accountability of their elected officials, rather than cowering in fear and looking for some kind of cowboy charactor to save the day?
11 million people in the streets today.
Personally, being NYC and knowing all too well the still ravaging affects that 9/11 has wrought upon the local economy as well as the emotional and physical difficulties it still perpeturates, if another terror attack were to occur, I can't say it will help Bush. My reaction would be "Why didn't you STOP IT?!" As should be the reaction of every American if another attack occurs. They have been saying we are safer. Are we or aren't we?
I believe an attack in this country would help Bush get a 2nd term. The attackers want to keep Bush in power, where he can do maximum damage to the economy and reputation of the US, just like he's been doing.
The CW would change at home if Kerry could come up with a provocative plan to deal with national security. Then it would be: This isn't working. Let's try Plan B. The other option is to hammer the diverted resources and focus.
Remember, in Spain (as in England) the people were much less split (much more opposed) to war than people here (for whatever reason).
Au contraire.....any assault on the USA by al Qaeda would be an admission that the Republican political forces are unable to protect this country in any manner.
There may be total anarchy if Bush used such a plan to stop the elections. At least I would hope the American people would wake up and finally pay attention.
SNAFU makes a good point, too -- there might be too much backlash for failed prevention.
I love how this works; we should re-elect Bush because he has prevented further terrorists attacks since 9/11. If there are further terrorists attacks the call will be to rally around Bush because he's our president.
Could you elaborate on why you feel conventional wisdom here in this country would support that such an attack would be a boost for Bush and the GOP?
I for one feel just the opposite and think others might say, hey we spent all this time and money and resources in Iraq and we still get attacked. Yet what have we done here at home to protect ourselves. Nothing. Maybe pissing off our allies and using this go it alone mentality isn't the best policy to use in the War on Terra after all.
I think that it might have someting to do with having a Parliamentary system vs. concentrating a lot of power in the Presidency.
Europeans tend to elect heads of state to run the nuts and bolts of government. Americans elect heads of state to run the nuts and bolts of government but also to serve as a sort of elected king.
So in the USA, people will respond more to emotional appeals to "get tough on terrorism" or to appeals that "President X is a strong leader."
When you have a Parliamentary system an a Prime Minister, the emphasis is more on "what are you going to do about it."
Of course I'm totally unfamiliar with how the French acted during DeGualle's presidency (when there was a lot of terrorism).
You guys are just cynics. This administration wouldn't sacrifice American lives for political gain...
*cough*
I think the CW is based on the faulty assumption that there will be a renewed "rally effect" in the event of an attack. Bush got a pass on 9/11 because he'd only been in office for 8 months, and most Americans had no clue exactly how fucking stupid he was before and after the attacks. With a crappy economy and a growing unease with the war in Iraq, an attack anytime before th election will simply solidify the (correct) perception that Bush is wholly incapable of protecting us.
I think BushCheney is screwed either way. If there is an attack, let's hope not, there will be finger pointing galore, and he's out.
We should be reminding people of Bush's dictum that the world is a safer place under his leadership. Maybe he should be campaigning in Spain.
The Repugs would use an attack as proof of the continuing danger and people might get all sanctimonius. It might again become sacrilige to criticize Bush. On the other hand, he would have failed to protect us, his whole reason for being President.
ah, but you see, the spanish are rational.
Just Someone:
...where he can do maximum damage to the economy and reputation of the US, just like he's been doing.
Quite right. BushCo and al-Qaeda have developed a mutually supporting system of political advantage, a symbiosis. Each is pursuing an agenda that benefits the other.
(dons tinfoil hat)
Wonder how long it will be before these supposedly "implacable enemies" start working on a Rhinemann Exchange???
With a crappy economy and a growing unease with the war in Iraq, an attack anytime before th election will simply solidify the (correct) perception that Bush is wholly incapable of protecting us.
Yeah, but it doesn't mean things will get better or Americans will start thinking more clearly.
If there's another big Al Qaeda attack in the US, it will probably mean that the immigration issue will explode and whoever demogogues it the most shamelessly will pick up votes.
Agreed Ntodd- I think people would just be reminded how freaking incompetent he is. And the argument that he wasted resources going after Saddam would resonate here as well.
I have to say it's been rather disturbing watching the Spanish govt insisting on the ETA angle, even though few signs pointed in that direction (it's a fundamentally different operation than anything they've done). I honestly think that's even worse than Bush's disgusting 9/11 ads when it comes to exploiting a tragedy for electoral gain. Between Aznar and that freak in charge of Italy, Europe's got some real gems of its own.
The natural tendancy in the event of another attack in the US will be for people to rally, and the Bush White House will surely use that to get back into the White House. My belief is that would be wrong. They have no magic solution, and another attack would be evidence of that fact. And, the "stay the coarse" argument is nonsense. The Rebpubs don't have a mandate nor a monopoly upon leadership, as much as they would like to think they do. If there were an attack prior to the November elections, the person who had the best plan of response, according to the voting public, should be elected. Of course, the emotional ticket would be the one played by the Bush White House, which, as we've seen the past few years, (assuming another attack happens or is imminent.) got us absolutely NOTHING. Next.
Much more beneficial to a Bush re-election would be to foil an attack approximately in the final stages of execution. Whether by blind luck or by following suspects and allowing them to get very close to completion, being able to point to a success of his pre-emption/anti-civil rights agenda would be most helpful. It strikes me that a small amount of collateral damage would make the intervention more theatrically dramatic, and more believable. It would have not only the effect of encouraging people to vote for Bush in Nov, but solidify support for continued invasion and stronger PATRIOT Act type laws.
"On the other hand, I would say that conventional wisdom in this country would be that a major al Qaedaish terrorist attack in this country before our election would be good for the Republicans and Bush."
But the real question is, Would Kerry then vote to invade Iran, along with a minority of Democrat turn coats?
It takes two parties to come to the dance. And they both can be same sex, as in IWR.
"Much more beneficial to a Bush re-election would be to foil an attack approximately in the final stages of execution. Whether by blind luck or by following suspects and allowing them to get very close to completion, being able to point to a success of his pre-emption/anti-civil rights agenda would be most helpful. It strikes me that a small amount of collateral damage would make the intervention more theatrically dramatic, and more believable. It would have not only the effect of encouraging people to vote for Bush in Nov, but solidify support for continued invasion and stronger PATRIOT Act type laws.
everyman"
Never happen. The only way they could foil a plot is if they set it up themselves. And most people already think they are capable of something like that.
But even with a Democrat elected we may get patriot 2 and definitely a draft. Where do you think Kerry will get those 40k new troops?
I think Atrios is correct that the conventional wisdom, i.e., the press with its extraordinarily stunted imagination, would think another attack beneficial for Bush, if that's his real name. And I think everyone else is correct in thinking, as I expect Atrios does too, that the conventional wisdom would suck wind yet again.
The exception would be if an attack delayed the election, and that would be worse for Bush in the long run. No matter how stunned the public seems, there's still a "You can't do that" threshold.
/
well, the arrest of some non-spanish people in connection to the bombing tends to push the argument in favor of al-quaeda than the euskadi seperatists, at least initially in the minds of the voters.
My family back in Madrid (all of whom are safe; it was the commuters who were hammered) is bs at Aznar anyway, so they will be voting socialist by default.
But the PP had/has a huge lead (don't ask me why) and I really doubt that the source of the bombing will matter.
Just my guess: the PP won't get as big a margin as expected, but they will keep the majority.
MY father, in his own stylish way, said on the phone today that "spain and the USA are now brothers in terrorism, but soon we will be brothers with new presidents who will be more effective against terrorism."
I only pray he is right!!
"The exception would be if an attack delayed the election, and that would be worse for Bush in the long run. No matter how stunned the public seems, there's still a "You can't do that" threshold.
/
weldon berger"
Wrong. Plans are already made for martial law.
Here is something to consider. george was the loser of the Bush family. Poppy could count on the others to keep their money.
Not George.
So, Poppy ageing starts worrying about George. The boy ain't all there, learning disability, Psychological problems, whatever.
So Poppy first gets him Governor. Then President.
George and kin are taken care of for life. George only needs a single term to collect those lovely benefits. he can't fuck those up.
So, George gets on term. Poppy knows he can't, or won't handle two.
They make George look like a loser and out of touch to get him out of office.
Meanwhile the give away to the rich is a nifty little side perk.
And they can plan for a more capable Republican further down the road.
I think another explosive attack would hurt Bush but a biological attack would help him in November. That's why I expect a biological attack within the next 8 months.
I'm not sure there is a fully-formed CW on the issue. No doubt there is on Osama. If caught, the CW says, big bounce for Bush.
I don't know about a terra attack. I think it would depend on two things: (1) how horrific it is, and (2) how Bush responds. I don't want to discuss different scenarios, but I imagine combinations of attacks and responses that would give him a big plus and combinations that would give him a big minus.
Bush/Cheney 2004: The Wrong Leadership in Times of Change
Bush/Cheney 2004: The Wrong Leadership in Times of Change
chica toxica
Umm, not for Republicans. They got EVERYTHING they wanted since 2000.
Consider this
http://www.safesearching.com/
bil...time_022004.htm
"FAVREAU: I think ' I think the debate is kind of silly, because it's going to come down to how scared people are before the election.
HUGHLEY: Exactly.
FAVREAU: And there's ' whether or not it's being spinned in a way that makes us more scared or not, I mean, that's ' you could debate that back and forth. But I'm one of the people who don't know who I'm going to vote for. And no matter whether or not Kerry was in Vietnam or not, in the back of my mind, I feel like Bush is willing to go further than anybody else. And there was a moment in time when you had Wesley Clark in there, where you thought there was a guy who could handle running a military more effectively than Bush. But right now, it's going to come down to what blows up a couple months before the election."
Oh OH--spanish intelligence now confirms it was an islamic fundamentalist group. And the election tribunal is now re-thinking the election (suposedly based on the protests outside the PP headquarters.)
Oh my. Coup d'etat?
See, I disagree with Atrios, as others have here. I don't think it would be good for Bush, though I can see that some people might be scared and might buy the Rightwing line that Kerry and the Democrats will be soft on terrorism. My gut tells me though that Bush would have a very hard sell for his main selling point - "I keep you safe."
And if he tried to stop the elections, all hell would break loose at this point. We here wouldn't be the only ones on the streets with pitchforks, I believe that the Democrats in Congress and in other positions of power would explode. Now that the tide has turned here, much of the dishonesty of the Bushistas has been exposed, the lies about Iraq are there - there seems to me to be no way that the Repugs could get away with something like that.
I spent the day at a birthday party for a friend - I didn't know about half the people there. A woman came in and asked the hostess right off whose car that was out front with the "Bush Lied, People Died" sticker. They pointed her my way - she introduced herself and asked: "Where do I get one?" Two other people standing there asked what it said and when I told them, they said: "I want one." It's over for Bush.
The Spanish people are not boobs and couch potatos like certain denizens of North America. They have to share a border with an Islamic country and they're fully aware that US support for Israel and the inability of the US to guarantee a Palestinian state is the number one reason for terror. The they hate our freedoms nonsense doesn't wash there.
With the neocon pro-Israel agenda, the bombing and occupation of Arab capital by Christian foreigners, the Spanish people knew joining the coalition was going to be an especially bad move, even though Aznar obviously extracted a handsome price for his cooperation...cash, Echalon, an invitation for a political role in South America, and special goodies for PP's militaristic instincts.
I think Aznar's party will be beaten tomorrow at the poles.
Well, Spain has a much more intelligent Fauxnooz Free citizenry than the Podhoretz People. Really outstanding essay in this month's Harper's on one of the truths Dean was crucified for failing to deny, which is that the die-hard "blue collar conservative" in the muddy pickup with the dixie flags is the Republican's biggest victim and, somehow, their biggest supporter. He's going to "vote Republican to fight Wall Street."
"Aznar vs Bush post-catastrophe" demonstrates the awesome value of propaganda. If you wonder why a country with a free press can actually blame a crime on criminals and another, with Freedom to Choose Any Facet of one corporate medium, you do not know the power of the dark side.
If another attack happens in the US, the election will be cancelled for natl emergency reasons, bet on it.
The wingnuts can't afford to lose power in NOV, jail time isn't their activity of choice.
ABB&B!!!
er...polls. I hope the Poles will beat Miller at the polls, too, when the time comes.
Randy Newman pegged the average American's opinion of foreign policy in "Political Science."
If we are attacked again, most Americans will simply regard it as another example of "anti-Americanism," and decide the only response is to give some country another ass-whuppin' to teach 'em a lesson.
From here, they all look alike, anyways....
"No one likes us, I don't know why..."
John Kerry’s Terrorism Talk: Tough AND Smart
Although many in the progressive blogosphere are understandably reluctant to say so explicitly, WE ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT THERE MAY BE A MAJOR TERRORIST ATTACK ON U.S. SOIL SOMETIME BETWEEN NOW AND THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN NOVEMBER. Furthermore, we are not only concerned about the potentially tremendous loss of American lives; we are also concerned about how such a development might affect John Kerry’s chances in the general election. There. It’s been said. That wasn’t so hard was it? So how do we, and more importantly, how does John Kerry ensure that his electoral prospects aren’t negatively affected if such a scenario materializes? It’s really quite simple: Blame Bush early and often! Bear with me, the strategy is not nearly as crude as it sounds.
John Kerry has to begin working NOW to make certain that George W. Bush does not gain any additional political capital from the deaths of Americans at the hands of terrorists. Kerry should begin planting the seeds of blame in every stump speech, in every media appearance, and in every press release. The basic message is as follows: After 9/11 we should have made it our all-consuming mission to completely wipe out Al-Qaeda. Instead, Bush shifted the focus from Al-Qaeda to Saddam Hussein, allowed Al-Qaeda time to regroup, and FAILED TO TAKE THE STEPS NECESSARY TO PROTECT AMERICANS FROM THE VERY REAL THREAT THAT WE MAY, IN THE NEAR FUTURE, BE THE VICTIMS OF ANOTHER TERRORIST ATTACK.
This line of attack serves several important purposes for John Kerry. First, it shows that Kerry is actively engaged on the question of how best to protect Americans lives. Second, it allows Kerry to position himself as the more focused and more responsible guardian of American safety while simultaneously avoiding the mistake of trying to out-hawk the hawks. Third, it puts the Bush team on the defensive and forces them to justify their failure to devote the necessary resources to protecting the homeland (border integrity, first responders, state budget shortages, sea ports). Finally, in the event of a terrorist attack on American soil, this strategy gives the Kerry team the ability to say “I told you so” rather than being forced to bow down and show respect for Bush. “My heart and the hearts of all Americans go out to the families of the victims. But ladies and gentlemen this didn’t have to happen. George W. Bush has again failed to protect the lives of American citizens. My first act as President of the United States will be to…” This strategy ensures that every terror attack between now and the election (foreign or domestic) that could possibly be the work of Al-Qaeda represents another failure for the Bush administration in the war on terror. In short, every terrorist attack would serve as a testament to the Bush administration’s wrong-headed strategy and their failure to eradicate Al-Qaeda when we had the chance. Genius isn’t it? A sort of political judo.
The Spanish people are not boobs and couch potatos like certain denizens of North America. They have to share a border with an Islamic country and they're fully aware that US support for Israel and the inability of the US to guarantee a Palestinian state is the number one reason for terror. The they hate our freedoms nonsense doesn't wash there.
Don't discount the history of Islam in Spain, either. Makes a huge difference in one's outlook.....
I heard interviews the BBC did in Spain right after the bombing. The people they talked to blamed the U.S. for the attack. They said if the Spanish government hadn't joined with the U.S. in Iraq, it wouldn't have happened. I think that's a stretch, but it does reflect how upset the Spanish have been over Iraq. They were very much against the war.
Hell, if Bush and Repugs suspended the elections here, there would be other countries wondering if they ought to do something. Many consider Bush a very real danger to world stability.
Notice that when Spain experiences a terrorist attack they treat it as a crime and catch several suspects.
When the US experiences a terrorist attack and treats it as an act of war, no suspects are apprehended.
Spainiards have to share a border with an Islamic country
Er, Portugal? France?
Sorry, I know you mean Mor., it was just a funny way of saying it! 
Well, I think that if the Election tribunal really calls off the elections tomorrow, whenever the elections DO happen, the PP will lose entirely.
So, I am backing off my initial impression that a coup is about to happen in Madrid's madrugada.
"Hell, if Bush and Repugs suspended the elections here, there would be other countries wondering if they ought to do something. Many consider Bush a very real danger to world stability.
Tena"
Yes, just like the US Israel thing, the UN and all those other nations are so fair anf just.
Face it as long as business keeps going, no other country will give a shit.
Could it be that the spanish actually demand accountability of their elected officials, rather than cowering in fear and looking for some kind of cowboy charactor to save the day?
The people of Spain are pissed, and I cannot blame them. I think Aznar's party is going to suffer from this.
When the US experiences a terrorist attack and treats it as an act of war, no suspects are apprehended.
Holden, good point. Should we add 'especially when the chief perpetrator is possibly a BFEE friend'?
http://tompaine.com/blog.cfm/ID/9942
"Exploiting Fear link
Further evidence that Bush's strong suit in Election 2004 will be the War on Terrorism—if the Democrats let him get away with it.
A new Gallup poll reports that Americans rank terrorism as the most critical threat to the United States. Ninety-two percent of Republicans and 77 percent of Democrats said terrorism was the No. 1 danger facing America. The Washington Times quotes a Republican strategist (unnamed) saying that Bush will "make the case that Kerry is not the right man to lead the war on terror." And, in the same piece, Will Marshall, the DLC's thinktank man, says it will be the "dominant issue in the presidential campaign."
Meanwhile, The Washington Post reports good news for the Democrats on every issue except the War on Terror. While the poll shows Kerry leading Bush 48-44 percent, with 57 percent of Americans saying "we need to elect a new president who can set the nation in a new direction," the Post adds: "Only the war on terrorism continues to garner [Bush] the support of more than 6 in 10 Americans."
Thus, Bush's wild-swinging attack on Kerry for having had the temerity to suggest (a decade ago!) that the bloated U.S. intelligence budget might need some trimming. (Since then, instead, the budget for U.S. intelligence has skyrocketed, up 50 percent—a wasteful increase that Kerry now says he supported.) I repeat, again: the Democrats need to come up with a way of hitting Bush on terrorism, and not by demanding a bigger war on terrorism—which is what Hillary and Joe Lieberman want. Instead, they need to quietly educate Americans about how to put terrorism in perspective. Compared to the threats that can really hurt us—say, car crashes, tobacco, environmental pollution, AIDS—terrorism isn't that big a deal. Sure, it's scary, and sure, we need to pursue Al Qaeda and its allies. But a $500 billion Pentagon budget? A huge Department of Homeland Security? Patriot Act II?"
I have been pondering the same contrast, if indeed there is one. I do find it remarkable that the Spanish hit the streets to protest the government attempts to mislead almost as soon as it became news.
If the Spanish really differ from us in their response to these things it owes itself, mainly, I think to two things: one, having lived under tyranny for quite a long time, they are skeptical of power and perhaps especially vigilant in defense of liberty and clean government.
The other difference, as one might expect, is the Spanish press. I read a bit of Spanish and occasionally partake of El País, which is an popular paper and much more left-wing than anything here. Aznar is obviously borrowing self-serving spin strategies from the Bushies and the Blairies, but the Spanish press isn't playing along.
Mario Cuomo, on Hahdbawl this past Thursday:
CUOMO: See, what is now clear is, he [Preznit Bush] is simply too simple, to the point of being simplistic. He thinks all you have to do is be strong, have a strong army, and you‘ll beat anybody. You can‘t win the terrorism war with an army. You obviously can‘t or Sharon would have won it a long time ago in Israel.
You can‘t win it with just an army. Sure you need an army. He thinks you can solve the economic problem by giving all his rich friends a lot of money and they‘ll invest it for you and 140 million people will go to work. Well, that‘s obviously not true. He‘s simplistic. He may be utterly sincere. You know, he talks about wedge issues. Wedge is a good word for the tools he uses. The simplest tool known to mankind is the wedge.
wee bits of northern africa are still spanish territory.
Wrong. Plans are already made for martial law.
Here is something to consider. george was the loser of the Bush family. Poppy could count on the others to keep their money.
Anonymous, 6:44 p.m. -- interesting post. But the martial law comment seems to contradict the rest of your post. Or I'm not understanding something. Can you explain a little more?
See, what is now clear is, he [Preznit Bush] is simply too simple, to the point of being simplistic. He thinks all you have to do is be strong, have a strong army, and you‘ll beat anybody. You can‘t win the terrorism war with an army. You obviously can‘t or Sharon would have won it a long time ago in Israel.
I'm so sick of this type of puke-worthy opposition, which accepts all the premises of the War on Terror, as well as the earnestness of the Bushies' attempt to prosecute same, but only differs on same. The same goes for Sharon. His goal is a land grab. As such, it's proceeding to plan.
God I hate middle-brow Democrats like Cuomo.
meant to say "differ on means."
I'm going way OT here, but this idea just hit me like a ton of bricks, mostly because I'm surprised I haven't thought of it sooner and even more surprised that I haven't heard anyone else give voice to it. I'm not surprised that I haven't heard it from any of the media talking heads, but I'm astonished I haven't heard it from any of the bloggers or folks who post on the blogs, because ya'll are some of the smartest folks around. I'm guessing that we've all been kept so busy with refuting the daily avalanche of bullshit that we've overlooked the most simple point.
Here it is: The way to get to the root of the "faulty intelligence" (or as we call it "lies") that led us into Iraq is with one simple question. We've heard all the "9/11 changed the way we look at everything" nonsense ad infinitum, but there's a huge question out there that has never been asked or answered, and simply asking it would bring the whole house of cards down on BushCo: What exactly was the catalyst that caused the Bush administration to focus exclusively on Iraq beginning at the end of summer 2002? I mean, we already know that Tenet had to tell them multiple times that fall to stop claiming that Iraq was trying to obtain uranium. So what was the piece or pieces of information that convinced Bush et al that Iraq was the biggest threat out there? Where did it come from? Did the CIA just up and call them one day and say "we have this very menacing information that you need to look at immediately"? No, as Tenet has said, they had no unequivocal information. So what was that one piece of information that turned their attention to Saddam to the exclusion of all else, and where did it come from? Someone needs to ask this question, and keep asking it until they stop dancing around it (as we know they will) and give a definitive answer. Because I'm pretty damn sure they don't have a satisfactory one, or even one that will pass the smell test with 75% of the public.
The answer, as all of us here know, is that it came from within the administration itself, from political appointees rather than intelligence experts. But until this "what was the tipping point, the catalyst?" question is asked, we're going to continue to get the same bullshit non-answers, excuses, and buck-passing.
Am I really overblowing this? Have any of you thought about the "march to war" from this angle?
Aznar was part of a kind of voodoun-economic "neoliberal Class of the Nineties", including Clinton, Chretien, Schroeder, Blair, Chirac, really also Prodi, etc.. This was a whole Industrial World Wide bourgeois revolution of heads of state sharing Mad Meg Thatcher's bullshit dereg cure-all fetish, all coming to power and lying and failing at roughly the same time. Has the Spanish economy survived Bush? And, maybe some Spaniards see no Daschlesque mutual exclusivity issue between "economy" and "security"?
wee bits of northern africa are still spanish territory.
I assume you refer to Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco.
You are correct, but I must admit that in all my life I never really thought of those as Spanish holdings. One of my ancestors died trying to hold spanish north africa, and I tend to try to forget about that!
Much more beneficial to a Bush re-election would be to foil an attack approximately in the final stages of execution. Whether by blind luck or by following suspects and allowing them to get very close to completion, being able to point to a success of his pre-emption/anti-civil rights agenda would be most helpful. It strikes me that a small amount of collateral damage would make the intervention more theatrically dramatic, and more believable.
This is scary as shit! It would be easy to stage and they've got people who look like 'their' terrorists to do it. Is it unbelievable?
Jennifer - There have been so many different theories floated for "why Iraq?" that I think you are right - no one seems to have asked Bush himself - why Iraq? Of course, he'll obfuscate, he'll say Saddam was a bad man yada yada yada. But it's a very good question.
Republicans love issues with no downside (tax cuts for everybody! death penalty for bad guys! French people suck!) Terrorism is heaven sent from their point of view. If we don't get attacked, our policies are working and Bush is a genius. I we do get attacked, it proves the campaign spin point about it being a dangerous world, too dangerous to entrust to spineless Democrats, with all their "thinking" and "diplomacy."
According to BBC's Five Live program, al Qaeda has taken responsibility for the bombings. Spain was to be punished for supporting Bush. This is going to be one interesting election tomorrow!
As a NYC resident who lived through 9/11 and who rides the subway daily, if another attack occurs in the US Bush will seriously have to explain why diverting funds for an unnecessary war made us safer. I don't feel and haven't felt any safer after 9/11.
The Bush Administration has politicized the allocation of funds for "Homeland Security" - each state getting an equal distribution of the monies is ridiculous. No offense to Kansas, but I doubt seriously if Kansan cities are on the minds of terrorists as much as are cities with high international profiles.
NYC police, firefighters and emergency workers still lack sufficient equipment to deal with another attack. That is despicable considering the GOP is coming here to party over the bodies of the victims of the 9/11 victims and to crow about what they've done to make the country safer. It's beyond offensive. It's grotesque. And all of us who live and work here everyday live our lives here without the protections and monies promised to us.
If something else happens then please explain to me how losing the peace in both Afghanistan and Iraq but while hemorrhaging US dollar in the process made the US safer
(What the F**k)?
I have been pondering the same contrast, if indeed there is one. I do find it remarkable that the Spanish hit the streets to protest the government attempts to mislead almost as soon as it became news.
They're also heated about the Sp. government's almost immediate blaming of ETA when most of the characteristics of the bombing did not point to ETA.
Is it unbelievable?
October Surprise. Crowds of supporters cheering a speech in English who it turns out do not speak English. Really, the entire point of Gulf Wars I & II, as well as Grenada and Panama, was to knock down a not-really-threatening strawman.
Jennifer-not sure what you mean. Are you saying the PNAC resolution, of united Israeli agents seeking to remove a possible threat joining with globalists seeking to control the oil supply and being rather public about it for a decade, could be tricked out in the open with a good direct question?
At the risk of being rude, who would you be asking? George "Why would politicians actually pay attention to intel" Tenet? Dick "Two hundred party lies behind and sincere" Cheney? Scott "Ask anybody else, that isn't something we do" McClellan?
We don't "know" about the drive to go after Iraq because of conversations with Elvis, we know because they have all but admitted it. Then again the CIA actually admitted to the whole drug thing in public at a real press conference, and it's still CW to laugh at that forbidden truth.
A woman came in and asked the hostess right off whose car that was out front with the "Bush Lied, People Died" sticker. They pointed her my way - she introduced herself and asked: "Where do I get one?"
Where did you get that sticker, hmmm???
It is in Al Qeada's interest to have Bush elected (not re-elected) It suits their purpose. Bush is reacting just like they wanted him to. Doesn't anyone else see that?
I have been pondering the same contrast, if indeed there is one. I do find it remarkable that the Spanish hit the streets to protest the government attempts to mislead almost as soon as it became news.
----
They're also heated about the Sp. government's almost immediate blaming of ETA when most of the characteristics of the bombing did not point to ETA.
Yeah, that's what I meant. It's remarkable, first because the news percolated out so quickly and second becaused it aroused such a militant response.
Aznar's commitment was bizzare in that it was a political loser.
However I maintain that the real thing in it for him was personal. This goes for Blair also. Mark my words, they both have now 'made men' who will gain much personal wealth from being loyal retainers to the Bush/US permanent government crowd. Doors will be open for them and their families. Their families are now secure for generations to come. Screw the poltics when the personal rewards are so great.
TO carry this idea further, the leaders of all governments are now enticed by these rewards. If the message of Bushism is that personal interest is inseperable from self interest, which it surely is, then it follows that as this becomes the norm national interests will become ever more closely aligned with the corporate/financial institutions which offer these rewards.
This is my vision of Globalism in the future.
Blame Bush early and often! Bear with me, the strategy is not nearly as crude as it sounds.
I'm glad Policy Wanker said it in his/her eloquent post, so I don't have to repeat myself again.
Anyone who thinks that this election will be about domestic politics alone is in a way putting the fate of our Republic in the hands of AQ. All it takes is one major terror strike and all bets are off.
Policy Wanker's prescription is the only way to minimize the chance that voters will break toward the right after a terror strike.
On the other hand, NTodd earlier on is also correct. The CW is based on the rally effect that he refers to. But if the people believe that the rulers of their country are no longer competent to protect them--or even worse, as in our case, the rulers are more interested in maintaining their own power than in the security of their nation--the rally effect can be replaced with popular outrage.
Thus the apparent contrast between CW here and in Spain is just actually two sides of the same coin.
Nickname - I think it was a response that has been building for some time, actually, and just needed a trigger. Like I say, the people I've heard give statements are mad as hell at the Spanish government for getting involved with El Shrubbo. They apparently have other grievances with the government, as well.
I live about 2 miles from the Nashville St. Wharf in the great port city of New Orleans: billions for missile defense and peanuts for port defense isn't a political winner with me. Not to mention that Bush has done NOTHING to prevent an attack here like the one in Madrid. Every Amtrack and every subway is vulnerable; if a DC metro train blows up in, say, the Pentagon City station, how many people will rush to re-elect the miserable failure.
EDIT ABOVE
If the message of Bushism is that national interesst is inseperable from self interest.........
mondo dentro - well put.
I have been wearing anti-Bush shirts ever since the stolen election starting with the Nation's November 13 2000 cover depicting Bush as Alfred E. Neuman. I now have dozens and I have vowed to wear them everywhere until Smirky McDipshit is gone. Shirts like Impeach cheney and the dumb one too and dozens of others.
I do find it remarkable that the Spanish hit the streets to protest the government attempts to mislead almost as soon as it became news.
I did not find it remarkable for a couple of reasons:
Spaniards are more used to responding to terrorism than americans. After 9/11 the tendency of americans was to stay indoors and fly flags. In Spain there is an unwritten law that says you get to the streets and show solidarity simply be bearing witness.
Also, spaniards protest at the drop of the hat. while most of my friends did not know what to think about the ETA idea, they were mainly interested in protesting terrorism in general (as a result there were more "ETA NO" signs than anti-al queda signs); we are just used to protesting ETA (many have placards hanging around to use for the next protest).
finally, the number who protested at the PP headquarters (el mundo says 3,000 persons and that is the conservative rag so it may have been more) were not too large, compared to the numbers on the streets in general (in my opinion; I did not speak personally to anyone who was at that manifestacion).
I think 3,000 protesters at the PP is a small number given a generally better informed, generally socialist-trending, terrorism-weary, and protest-savvy public in Madrid, a city of more than 3 million.
But again, I am not sure.
This just in from Madrid:
Al Qaeda reivindica los atentados en un vídeo hallado en Madrid
The is now a video of Al Qaeda claiming responsibility for attacks.
dave - not to worry, I sent them to you and your tender mercies.
The New York Times is also reporting about the Madrid video. We will see what happens in tomorrow's elections, which the Popular Party was widely expected to win.
Gabriel--
Have you been able to access the video? I have not made it work yet.
... or somebody posing as al Qaeda.
The reports of Islamic tapes in the van with detonators should be looked at as pretty suspicious evidence.
I sent them to you and your tender mercies.
When you recounted that story, I remembered where I had seen your (full) name before...
Well, I'll give you the same deal I gave a friend of mine who wanted me to make an "Impeach the Liar-in-Chief" sticker - you get 5% after the first 10,000!
NEVER have I disagreed with you dude (dudette?), but if it want's to be a "war president"...
This happened on his watch.
dave - That's far too generous, dave. Really, I couldn't accept such unbelievable generosity. I've done nothing...nothing at all...
Ok, WTF is CW?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Words for Kerry:
A Strong Economy Is The Best Defense. /
I think you're right. And for that reason, I think Aznar will win tomorrow.
Good (if dangerous) call. Because an Aznar win means that Bush can "create" a terrorist attack on America in late October (which won't be proven to be non Al Qaeda for months) and win the selection.
Think he won't?
Don't underestimate him.
What won't he do?
The reports of Islamic tapes in the van with detonators should be looked at as pretty suspicious evidence.
I agree, which is why I am still up in the air about this. While ETA never tried anything like this before, and a lot of the devices and details don't follow the usual ETA method, the similarities are there, so it is hard to say if it is ETA trying to throw off the trail, or Al Quaeda trying to look like ETA.
But the fact that ETA has denied responsibility, and the video, and that the stolen truck had the explosives and the tape....I am just not sure that ETA can pull that kind of detail off. Remember, ETA hires kids off the streets of the indistrial north. I have never had the impression that they were quite that clever.
So I am leaning towards islamic fundamentalists.....but maybe I am just a tool for ETA who would want us to think that.....I am so confused!
We don't "know" about the drive to go after Iraq because of conversations with Elvis, we know because they have all but admitted it.
Remember this? The War Behind Closed Doors --- PBS.
Not on topic I know but ....
I would like to float the idea of organising a petition drive in support of Kerry's call for regular monthly debates with Bush.
We won't get the debates of course but it will be effective in maintaining the initiative whilst keeping republicans on the back foot since they will have no option but to oppose it.
A petition, whether or not it is succesfull, can offer several advantages for us. It will be very popular among democrats and equally unpopular among republicans allowing us to frame their reluctance to debate in a very bad light for them. It should be relatively easy to achieve and cheap. We can draw on the basic organising skills of a wide variety of movement organisations from unions, DNC, Kerry campaign, and especially online organisations like Move On. As the petition grows the media will have to report on it and continue reporting on it allowing the petition drive to be framed as a theme rather than a single non-recurring event.
I could go on, any other ideas ?
Not on topic I know but ....
I would like to float the idea of organising a petition drive in support of Kerry's call for regular monthly debates with Bush.
We won't get the debates of course but it will be effective in maintaining the initiative whilst keeping republicans on the back foot since they will have no option but to oppose it.
A petition, whether or not it is succesfull, can offer several advantages for us. It will be very popular among democrats and equally unpopular among republicans allowing us to frame their reluctance to debate in a very bad light for them. It should be relatively easy to achieve and cheap. We can draw on the basic organising skills of a wide variety of movement organisations from unions, DNC, Kerry campaign, and especially online organisations like Move On. As the petition grows the media will have to report on it and continue reporting on it allowing the petition drive to be framed as a theme rather than a single non-recurring event.
I could go on, any other ideas ?
Ok, WTF is CW?
Clinton's Weenie?
chica toxica,
I have only read the transcript. This is my attempt at translation.
"We declare resposibility for what happened in Madrid, exactly two and a half years after the attacks on New York and Washington. This is our response to your collaboration with the criminal Bush and his allies. It is our response to the crimes you have commited against the world, and specifically in Iraq and Afghanistan and there will be more coming, God willing.
"You want life and we want death, which exemplifies what the prophet Mohammed declared: if you don't stop your injustices more and more blood will be spilled and these attacks are small compared to what will happen with what you call 'terrorism.'
This is a message from the military spokesman of Al Qaeda in Europe."
ABU DUJAN AL AFGANI
Re the inoculation strategy discussed above, I think Kerry has to start saying NOW that Bush "went after the wrong target" when he attacked Iraq.
It's all upside. It defuses Iraq as an issue. (Yeah, we beat 'em, so what?) It costs Bush points on national security in general. (Incompetent boob went off on some wild-goose chase.) And in the event of another attack on the US, it makes him look even worse. (See! We told you so!)
Not on topic I know but ....
I would like to float the idea of organising a petition drive in support of Kerry's call for regular monthly debates with Bush.
We won't get the debates of course but it will be effective in maintaining the initiative whilst keeping republicans on the back foot since they will have no option but to oppose it.
A petition, whether or not it is succesfull, can offer several advantages for us. It will be very popular among democrats and equally unpopular among republicans allowing us to frame their reluctance to debate in a very bad light for them. It should be relatively easy to achieve and cheap. We can draw on the basic organising skills of a wide variety of movement organisations from unions, DNC, Kerry campaign, and especially online organisations like Move On. As the petition grows the media will have to report on it and continue reporting on it allowing the petition drive to be framed as a theme rather than a single non-recurring event.
I could go on, any other ideas ?
Why the contrast, you ask? Because the Spanish people are demonstrating they can act in a rational way. They gave their democratically elected government (remember those?) the benefit of the doubt in its support for Bush's crazy adventure in Iraq, even though 90% of them opposed it. And they did because they were well informed by a free press (remember that?).
But now it's becoming clearer and clearer that joining forces with the Unelected Monkey was a miscalculation of epic proportions and that Spain may very well have made very nasty enemies for no good reason whatsoever.
Another lesson Spaniards are giving the world is, after they had their 9-11, more than 25% of them (12 million) took to the streets to chant for peace and rejection of terror. On the other hand, Americans stayed home, digested their frustration, turned it into hatred and demanded immediate retribution. Bush just loved it, and as he has said many times, "On 9-11, I hit the trifecta."
Jaime Egańa
Not on topic I know but ....
I would like to float the idea of organising a petition drive in support of Kerry's call for regular monthly debates with Bush.
We won't get the debates of course but it will be effective in maintaining the initiative whilst keeping republicans on the back foot since they will have no option but to oppose it.
A petition, whether or not it is succesfull, can offer several advantages for us. It will be very popular among democrats and equally unpopular among republicans allowing us to frame their reluctance to debate in a very bad light for them. It should be relatively easy to achieve and cheap. We can draw on the basic organising skills of a wide variety of movement organisations from unions, DNC, Kerry campaign, and especially online organisations like Move On. As the petition grows the media will have to report on it and continue reporting on it allowing the petition drive to be framed as a theme rather than a single non-recurring event.
I could go on, any other ideas ?
Am I really overblowing this? Have any of you thought about the "march to war" from this angle?
What tipping point? they came into office wanting to know off Saddam. After all he tried to kill dubya's daddy. They were just searching for a reason.
I would like to float the idea of organising a petition drive in support of Kerry's call for regular monthly debates with Bush.
Speaking of which, here's what I think the strategy is: if Bush refuses to have the debates, Kerry's going to use this to reenforce the idea that he's slippery, untrustworthy, and just plain aWol.
So far, I'm impressed by the Kerry campaign.
CW = conventional wisdom, also know as the bullshit the mainstream press believes to be true.
Jaime--
exacatmente
Developing news: those 3,000 people protesting at the PP headquarters have gained a few more supports, are up to 5,000 people, and a minister has called the manifestacions against the government "illegal"
hmmm.
I could go on, any other ideas ?
postit
please close your pop-up window before refreshing, otherwise you get multiple posts.
good idea
Ok, WTF is CW?
Inquiring minds want to know.
cornfed hick
Country-Western, a type of music often listened to by the NASCAR dads
but here it means Conventional Wisdom
point of clarification: those 5,000 persons are in the Atocha train station, and are shouting anti-government slogans.
I am so prod of them! I wish I were there! I am not sure that Atocha will become "zona cero" but it is close.
Another thing to consider: the main mosque in Madrid is right next door to the main crematorium/state funeral home where prety much all of the dead in Madrid go to be processed.
"If another attack happens in the US, the election will be cancelled for natl emergency reasons, bet on it.
The wingnuts can't afford to lose power in NOV, jail time isn't their activity of choice.
ABB&B!!!
Paul"
And if Spain cancels elections tomorrow, they'll have their precedent.
And if Spain cancels elections tomorrow, they'll have their precedent.
It's already tomorrow.
I noticed anti-Israel comments on a couple of threads today. Or will you claim you're just criticizing Sharon? "If only the U.S. stopped supporting Israel's right to exist, those awful Islamic terrorists would stop killing people, blah blah blah."
Vinnie sez: "It is in Al Qeada's interest to have Bush elected (not re-elected) It suits their purpose. Bush is reacting just like they wanted him to. Doesn't anyone else see that?"
Yes. Which is why, if they can possibly manage it, there *will* be another attack on the US before November. No matter what the subtle minds here assume, Al Qaeda will believe the CW.
If another attack happens in the US, the election will be cancelled for natl emergency reasons, bet on it.
If that happens I'd hope it would take Congress about a week to impeach the SOB.
There are a lot of Republicans on the Hill (jesus, even Hastert) who are starting to get tired of this horseshit.
Riffing on idea of Iraq as blunder:
New acronym:
WMD: 'Wrong Mofo Detained'.
Country-Western, a type of music often listened to by the NASCAR dads
I like both kinds of music, country AND western.
" Bush just loved it, and as he has said many times, "On 9-11, I hit the trifecta."
Jaime Egańa
Jaime Egańa"
Winning the Trifecta, or any other bet, means you got what you were wishing for. Not So?
I vacillate between brain donor and sociopath on GWB. Today I'm back to sociopath.
Tena, that is truly good news.
I don't do bumper stickers, but I think I'll make an exception.
Hey I hear tomorrow is
"Shave your head, and look
for the sixes" day in the Hague.
Ooops, I'm getting ahead of myself.
BUSH: Until The End!
PS: Boats??? Planes???? Trains?????
I think there's hidden Al Queda
messages in that movie if you
play it backwards....
How come all those spanish people
just don't put big flag stickers on
their vehicles and shop at the mall
where they belong.
They're sooooo, Old World.
"poppy can you hear me?"
Anyone know of a good blog out of spain? I probably should be able to find one, but I have so far only stumbled on blogs by accident.
I think in principle an attack hurts Bush. His primary claim to justify his policies are that a terrorist attack has not yet happened on US soil since 9/11. If he wishes to continue to tout the wisdom of his approach to the War on Terra, he must prevent an attack. Otherwise, it will be clear that alll his puffery has had no effect.
However it is not unreasonable to predict that an attack could have a short-term benefit, but this will decay over time. The bigger the attack, however, the longer the decay time. Given that a near-majority of Americans do not think Bush's team above such an act and so therefore the benefits will likely be attenuated compared to 9/11, what would the the minimum safe time prior to November elections that an event would be most assured to benefit Bush?
I think that if the attack in Spain turns out to be Al Qaida (which looks likely accordiung to recent reports), than that will definitely help Bush. In fact that's the ideal scenario for him: Al Qaida is still a threat, so we still need a "steady hand" to protect us, yet we in the USA seem to be a little safer (cause there was no attack here).
But, I do agree with Atrios that if there is an attack in the US, that would also help the Chimp, because he plays on fear. People unfortunately do not think as rationally as many of you would have them do. The Bush base sees Bush as strong on defense and counter-terrorism, regardless of the facts, and so if they see a strong need for counter-terrorism, they will support him. Kerry really needs to correct this warped perception quickly.
I think that if the attack in Spain turns out to be Al Qaida (which looks likely accordiung to recent reports), than that will definitely help Bush. In fact that's the ideal scenario for him: Al Qaida is still a threat, so we still need a "steady hand" to protect us, yet we in the USA seem to be a little safer (cause there was no attack here).
But, I do agree with Atrios that if there is an attack in the US, that would also help the Chimp, because he plays on fear. People unfortunately do not think as rationally as many of you would have them do. The Bush base sees Bush as strong on defense and counter-terrorism, regardless of the facts, and so if they see a strong need for counter-terrorism, they will support him. Kerry really needs to correct this warped perception quickly.
Rumor has it that Bin laden has been captured and Bush will use him for a October suprise.
check out www.witnessreport.com
i think everyone is missing something.
the reason that Bush get so popular is because democrats CHOSE to back Bush after 911 instead of question what the hell happen --
now i am sure democrats might have taken a small hit immediately after starting to criitcize Bush but by cedeing terrorism to Bush cause us the mid terms.
It is similar to the AWOL stuff -- it was brought up by Moore and then Clark didn't refutiate it. . Clark took a bit of a hit but then the press was FORCED to look into the issue.
If this had happen after 911 then perhaps we would have answers to what Bush knew about Bin Laden's threats.
God forbid if there is a next time i assure you the democrats will not roll over.
Didn't NYC's primaries get postponed after 9/11?
9/11 itself was a Bush screw-up - it shouldn't have increased his stature (but it did).
You can spin anything any way you want in the US (until blogs came along - now it's not so easy).
I think Bush purposely let our guard down in Aug-Sep 2001 because PNAC had said they needed a "new Pearl Harbor" in order to invade Iraq.
So if they think they can get some mileage out of more terrorism, sure they'll let some more happen again.
Trouble is, Rove's used to one-way corrporate media - he's making lots of wrong moves now that the rapid-response blogosphere is in place.
They might THINK that they can let another attack happen and then declare martial law - and they might actually TRY it.
Let's just hope they wise up enough over the next few months to realize that those days are over in the US. You can't fool the people so easy anymore.
They're slowing going into meltdown, the Rovians. Look for them this week to come out with some accusation that Kerry was involved in a plot to ASSASSINATE SENATORS!
I think a few things are obvious:
1. Bush being re-elected is in the interest of any enemy of the U.S. He weakens us at home by being so polarizing and weakens us abroad by being so infuriating to the rest of the world.
2. It is impossible to tell in advance how a succesful attack on U.S. soil will affect the election.
3. If OBL is captured in the fall, it would help Bush.
Given the above, the most clever thing that OBL can do to help his own cause is to allow himself to be captured in the fall.
God forbid if there is a next time i assure you the democrats will not roll over.
And neither will the people who were willing to back him even though they were never impressed with him AND didn't vote for him.
Bush has to go. His whole administration is corrupt and incompetent.
I disagree. Their campaign argument (as ridiculous as it is to begin with)that we haven't had a terrorist attack since 9/11(ergo we're safer) would be taken away . They couldn't continue to claim they've made us safer if another successful attack was launched.
If the PP cancels elections, it'll lose them. If they occur tomorrow, they still have a chance to win. Give 2 more days that will show even more evidences it was Al-Qaeda and the PP is completely and rightfully toast.
Not to mention millions of pissed off Spanish will protest against the delay.
Apparently Rajoy claimed that the few thousands protesting before his party are illegals "It never happened in our democracy". Will someone point to this dipshit that train-bombings killing 200 people never happened in Spain before last Thursday? The Socialist spokesman replied that the Spanis people has been exemplary, contrary to the govt that lied about the culprits; he added that as the main opposition party they were informed by secret services that ETA was not the likely culprit yet decided to be fair-play, not to spill the beans and let the govt reveal what it wanted to.
Sunday will be an interesting day.
Given the above, the most clever thing that OBL can do to help his own cause is to allow himself to be captured in the fall.
OBL is going to allow himself to be captured. He might create martyrs, but he's not going to BE one.
captured?!!!
four legs good and kei & yuri -
What I'm trying to get at is that they can't hide behind the "faulty intelligence" dodge if they are forced out in the open into admitting that the original "alarm bell" on Iraq never initiated with the intelligence agencies.
Sure, we know what their plan was all along - but the media pretends not to, and the people who rely on that media for their information don't know any better. The way around that is for someone, anyone, to keep asking, over and over and over again, what exactly was the catalyst for their focus on Iraq as the biggest threat out there. What was the piece of "faulty intelligence" from the intel agencies that caused them to focus on it in the first place? Where did it come from, and when?
See, they can only credibly blame this on "faulty intelligence" if they can demonstrate that it was the intel agencies that sounded the alarm, rather than they themselves, who then went to the intel agencies and asked for intelligence to support their foregone conclusion that Iraq was the primary threat. So far, all we've gotten from them is this bullshit about how "9/11 made us re-examine everything." Ok, fine. So they re-examine Iraq and its potential for threat - but unless the intel agencies were hammering on Iraq being the biggest threat out there, their strategy of blaming the whole Iraq fiasco on "faulty intelligence" must necessarily stop right there. That's why I'm suggesting that the question I posed - one I've never heard asked of them directly - is the one that needs to be hammered home. It's the lynchpin for proving how the whole clusterfuck got rolling.
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/
20...1079200520.html
Well, the PP may actually be losing elections.
The first thing any Spanish will do Sunday before going to vote is to check the current state of the investigation. They'll see it's Al-Qaeda. They'll see the spontaneous protests. Though I won't bet on a defeat, and if the PP loses, it probably won't be a big defeat - in fact I think it would be bigger if Aznar himself was running again.
I just hope the Italians will begin to seriously pressure Berlusconi to stop his moronic posturing with Bush. Same with Bliar. Though these seem to be lost causes and short of popular uprising I don't see much hope before next elections.
I just like the fact that over 5,000 people at at ground zero in Madrid calling the government out, and demanding truth and justice.
If Aznar were to appear on top of train rubble with a loudspeaker saying "I can hear you" right now he would be stoned by the mob.
The buck stops at the top.
Back to you Mr. Bush.
I'm as guilty as the next person, but now I'm beginning to see that all these scenarios that we've been tossing around are just one big circle jerk.
Terrorists don't give a crap about all this. The attack in Madrid shows that they have learned from 9/11. They now see how easy it is to disrupt Democracies with acts of terror.
I agree with Mickey Kaus. This could be a warm-up for an attack in the US prior to the November elections.
I agree with Mickey Kaus. This could be a warm-up for an attack in the US prior to the November elections.
You agree with Mickey Kaus. That's it. Keep the fear factor in play.
God, some of you are just embarrasing.
*sighs*
Well, it does look like the Spanish bombings are going to be the work of Al Qaeda after all. I'm not sure what I should feel about this; A murder is a murder no matter who commits it. It doesn't matter if it were ETA or Al Qaeda, they should be brought to justice equally.
But at the same time... we anti-war critics said War on Iraq wouldn't solve Terrorism. And yes, here Al Qaeda are again; And here's all the usual weasles, inside and outside of Government, trying to seperate that war from the very acts of terror they claimed it would reduce. And that makes me feel ever more anger... We should never walk away from doing what is right, even in the face of threats from evil people, but that war, and the overall War On Terror is bloody stupid policy which just further aids the Terrorists. When oh when will the bastards learn? *fumes* I want to say we should do what's write, but right now I just want to haul off and punch and punch and punch one of those pro-death dickheads. Grrrrrrrrrrr....
embarrassing
"Do what's right" that should be, of course.... grrrrrrrrrrr
pie - I haven't even read what Kaus has to say about it, and the same thought occured to me.
Which is why Kerry needs to be out there spreading the truth that Bush hasn't followed through with his promises to strengthen homeland security, and another attack could very well occur as a result. Inoculate against the possibility of a terror attack here several days before the election throwing it to Bush.
Clueless Joe--
I agree with you: assuming the tribunal allows elections today, (dentro de cinco horas) the PP will probably still win, but with a very small margin.
Things are going to get pretty hot in some parts of Spain this year! (But I hope to god not as physically hot as last summer! jooooooder)
Which is why Kerry needs to be out there spreading the truth that Bush hasn't followed through with his promises to strengthen homeland security, and another attack could very well occur as a result.
Exactly. And we should not live in fear. It's really disgusting to listen to that crap. People brag about being kick ass Americans...
when they hide behind the military.
No offense to posters up thread, but I think times up on the "Bush canceling elections" fantasy.
There ain't no way a national election is being canceled for anything except nation-wide nuclear holocaust. When California falls into the Pacific (God forbid, friends, just an example . . . ), I'm still gonna be able to walk the two blocks to my little community center here in MS and pencil in some little ovals.
More importantly, elections are run locally, not by the federal government.. If local officials think they can hold fair and safe elections, their gonna have them no matter what Washington says. The President ain't the only race on the ballot.
If people still need something to hide under the blankets about, a much more logical end to democracy under Bush would be martial law. That's actually a possibility with some precedent, since we know these fools always overreach.
This November is so huge . . . I think we ought to start editing out the crap that isn't worth the chatter. Especially since--according to the previous thread (!)--Eschaton is now sourcing the SCLM.
Were such a disaster to happen, how could the Bushies claim credit for their Heroic Watch for Homeland Security? While that's sort of a QED, the Dems would be wise to hold the Admin's balls to the fire and point out - before the fact, if there is one - how, in manifold ways, and with foreknowledge of threat, we are indeed less secure than we were when they took the helm. It's utterly sick to be funding ABM programs when a few knapsacks can cause this kind of grief.
If the socialists win in Spain, is there any chance they might pull their troops from Iraq? Anyone knows?
This November is so huge . . . I think we ought to start editing out the crap that isn't worth the chatter.
I'm with you, chrississippi.
Too much noise distracts from the message.
pie - oh, absolutely. I have no truck with fear and still can't understand the hysteria that people have about the possibility of dying in a terrorist attack. How is that any worse than dying in any other way? (And considering how painful the long-term suffering many go through before dying of fatal diseases, it's perhaps better in some regards.) More people die in auto accidents in the US every month than died in the 9/11 attacks, but you don't hear anyone talking about how we need to surrender our driver's licenses in order to be made "safe" in the same way you hear jackasses opining about how "it may be necessary to give up some of our freedoms so we can be safe." I can't grasp how a person with a single rational cell in their brain can fail to see how ridiculous that idea is.
considering how much his commercials are about what a steady leader george is, i would think it would hurt him if we had an attack, BUT
do you think OBL is in a hovel somewhere watching CNN or fux and wondering if he attacks would it help the fool george and bring down america that way or would NOT attacking help the fool george to bring down america.
gotta wonder what he thinks about the poll #s.
If the socialists win in Spain, is there any chance they might pull their troops from Iraq? Anyone knows?
Zapatero (lead candidate of the PSOE, the socialist party) thinks Aznar lied to the country, and wants the UN to take over, so I suspect that the limited presence of Spanish support will be withdrawn.
I don't think OBL is going to take one for the team.
Pie:
If you're standing in a pit of rattlesnakes, and the thought that you have nothing to fear but fear itself soothes and calms you, that is a very good thing. It makes it that much less likely that you'll start fucking dancing!
All joking aside, the idea that AQ might be smiling at the scene in Madrid, and turning their thoughts toward America in November is neither soothing, calming, nor unthinkable. It is eminently thinkable. They hate our asses, and they are not sane. No matter what their religion, anyone who thinks flying a plane into a skyscraper and murdering 3000+ people ia a good thing is fucking batshit. Don't let your feelings for the Shrub and his cockamamy Yellow, Orange, and Plaid Alerts blind you to that stark reality.
I really do hope our Intelligence is a bit more on the ball now than they were in '01. If we're lucky, Tenet has learned a lesson. If we're not, well....
There's a simple truth you won't hear coming from the mouths of our Dear Leared(s); Terrorism is almost impossible to stop.
Aint I just a ray of sunshine tonight?
Ooooooops! I don't enen remember typing arbuthnot in there.....mebbe I need another nap.
Great editorial in La Vanguardia today:
key point:
Algo muy serio y dańino cruje en Espańa. Sólo tiene un remedio: democracia, democracia, democracia. Unidad de los demócratas frente a ellos.
http://www.lavanguardia.es/web/
2...1152955174.html
More people die in auto accidents in the US every month than died in the 9/11 attacks, but you don't hear anyone talking about how we need to surrender our driver's licenses in order to be made "safe" in the same way you hear jackasses opining about how "it may be necessary to give up some of our freedoms so we can be safe."
One book I would recommend is by Bruce Schneier (the computer security and encryption guru).
It's a very rational, hard headed look at terrorism and how to guard againt it. Basically, there are always trade offs to achieve security and no tradeoff will give you perfect security. I can't tell you how refreshing it was after the fear mongering of the mainstream media.
Jennifer,
It's simple. They don't have rational brain cells. I'm always amazed at how much humanity enjoys being scared shitless.
And I still wanna know what "joder" means.
How come all those spanish people just don't put big flag stickers on their vehicles and shop at the mall where they belong. They're sooooo, Old World.
And after Chalabi's nephew built them a nice new mall, too. I wonder if there was any government money involved?
"More importantly, elections are run locally, not by the federal government."
Chris, that's probably the best argument against the FedGov cancelling elections. I hadn't thought of that. Doesn't mean they wouldn't want to though...
I didn't have time to read all the responses here. Did anyone wonder aloud if this was the BFEE running an experiment to see how the voting populace would react to a terrorist attack right before elections?
Terrorism is almost impossible to stop.
I agree. However, I'd rather not be reduced to a quivering mass of protoplasm knowing that.
Anon (940) - Unka Bruce is my major deity (I teach classes and consult on information security). On the subject of Homeland Security, there was an excellent piece in Atlantic Monthly a couple years ago wherein he espoused the philosophy that "we need systems designed to fail smartly". Truer words were never spoken.
joder = a big, fat, juicy f*ck
What mall did Chalabi's relative build in Spain?
chica toxica,
Ah. I dig. Very appropos.
Hey!
Lambert over at corrente sez Rummy's trying to cook up a specialized draft ordinance for everyone between 20 and 40 that knows a furrin langwadge or speaks computerese.
I kid you not.
I guess that's one way to put the skids on the librul bloggers- 'cept a lot us are 'way past 40!
Lambert over at corrente sez Rummy's trying to cook up a specialized draft ordinance for everyone between 20 and 40 that knows a furrin langwadge or speaks computerese.
ooops, I just forgot all my spanish and arabic. And what the hell am I doing staring at this keyboard and glowing window-thing?
[sound of running footsteps fading into distance followed by sound of door slamming]
chica toxica - The Xanadů (?) megamall in Madrid, I believe. Complete with indoor ski slope...
arbuthnot, what this crap about Tenet learning a lesson?
Tenet warned Bu$h about AQ many times before 9-11.
Clinton and his aides warned Bu$h about AQ so many times Rice said they- including Clinton's CIA- "obsessed" about Bin Laden before 9-11!
I think terrorism is a real threat- most of us here do. We just won't be stampeded by Bu$h into supporting a "War against Terra" when the most effective way to fight it would be to fight the criminal terrorists and the war profiteers who make money off of the proliferation of terror.
Hey Backslider, I'm making a run over to Atlanta next weekend and thinking about going to see the Waybacks at the Variety Playhouse. Do you have any scoop on them?
"I didn't have time to read all the responses here. Did anyone wonder aloud if this was the BFEE running an experiment to see how the voting populace would react to a terrorist attack right before elections?
-here kitty"
I sure did, but I've become one darkly cynical beotch in the past 3 years. Even so, it's still hard to keep up with the evildoer Bushies. It will be interesting to see how or if this effects the election.
Don't sweat it, chica.
They set up a draft and they'll have more trouble on their hands than they know what to do with.
Imagine every technologically literate youth in the country dodging the draft.
Imagine every technologically literate adult over forty- quite a few of us are Deaniacs or worse- helping out.
If they really try that, it will explode in their face.
Like nothing that has ever happened before to them. This generation - and the two others since Viet Nam- won't stand for it.
Anon--
oh man, that Madrid-Xanadu pretty much tops out all possible contenders for the most galling spectacle of insane consumerism in Spain, and that is saying a hell of a lot. Most malls I've been to there are abject, kitchy coffins. I can't even breathe in them.
All I'm saying....
Oh, right, I forgot this is
a serious discussion about topics
that no one has thought of before....
Chocolate rations are up!
(oh, and I am refering to the Xanadu as described on the web....it only just opened and I haven't been back in a while).
If Chalabi's money is behind it, I hope it goes under in a spectacular spasm of corruption.
talk about cultural pollution!!!!!
Jennifer,
I'm not really into the whole jamgrass scene, but my contacts say the Waybacks are a solid bet. Course, David Grissman is a monster picker, so if that's your bag, you can't go wrong.
And the Variety is a rockin' venue. Maybe my favorite in Atlanta apart from the Star Bar. My brother and I had to pass up Richard Thompson there last night because of problems with funding. In other words, we're too broke to go.
Reverend Backslider - Thanks for the info! You wouldn't by any chance be related to the Reverend Horton Heet?
Reference for the Chalabi/Xanadu link
Jennifer -- The reason most people get so het up about terrorism is because most people suck at risk assessment. It's a lot easier to be afraid of big, noisy, noticeable risks (like September 11th or even plane crashes) than it is to be afraid of smaller, more commonplace risks (like lethal car accidents or workplace mishaps). These days, something has to bleed big before it leads, and the stuff that gets all the attention looms large in the popular imagination of bogeymen.
On the other hand, you're far more likely to be wiped out driving to your job in the morning (1 in 7000) than you are to be wiped out by a terrorist who flies your plane into a building (1 in multiple millions).
Jennifer,
Nope, but I am a disciple of the Rev. Billy C. Wirtz. I don't really go for the whole rockabilly revival thing. It's the hair. I tried out for a rockabilly band once, and they told me not only would I have to buy an upright bass, I'd have to get one of them ridiculous ducktails.
I do have certain standards.
to a different Anonynous -
Watch the Documentary "Gaza Strip": and tell me Israel's Likud does not reap what it sows - that is the agenda - keep pushing the Palestinians off their tiny bits of land, keep building ILLEGAL settlements, keep recreating apartheid, keep killing kids for throwing rocks, keep the Palestinians penned in witout any hope and then shout anti-Semitism- give me a fucking break.
Can you honestly look me in the eye and say that Sharon's govt is not exacerbating every negative tendency in the Middle East, and that those policies are affecting other countries? Sure you can, you're an apopogist.
Whatever Israel's policies we should all support them, is that it?
No m'dear it does not work that way. Get a fucking grip on your whining.
Many comments here as to whether a terrorist attack on US would help or harm Bush's chances, seem to ignore the fact that we would be in the thick of an election campaign -- which is already on. That's why I think we should all pay close attention to Policy Wanker's very important point. Kerry can actually help fend this off by making it absolutely clear that Americans are on to the scam and it won't work again. Just as he must do for black box voting and other possible monkey business at the polls. These guys will do anything... unless they realize it ain't gonna work this time because we're on to their scams and we're not afraid of them. And thanks mondo dentro, Scott XYZ ,Jennifer and pie, for supporting that point in various ways.
There is a very interesting discussion taking place now on the German website Telepolis, based on a piece by Mathias Broeckers suggesting that, while Spaniards are trying to figure out if the perpetrators were ETA or al-Qaida, the attack in many ways bears the "signature" of the old Project Gladio terrorism (for example, the blowing up of the railroad station in Bologna in August 1980. (An English translation of the article -- but not the comments -- is at http://www.memetank.net/mt/archi...ves/
000181.html )
"From 1969 to 1980 a total of 245 people were killed and more than 600 injured in bomb attacks at train stations, on trains and on crowded squares in Italy. Each time leftwing anarchist groups were initially blamed and investigations, charges were made against them." It was only in 1995 that it was proven in court that the real perpetrators of these acts were in reality the masonic P2 lodge and the CIA. There were analogues to Project Gladio all over Europe, and they committed terrorists acts in other countries, especially Turkey. (Synagogue explosion in Turkey last year, remember?) One commenter pointed out that, aside from constant reference to Osama bin Laden as supposed leader, we don't really know what "al-Qaida" is -- it seems to be rather free-floating and formless. One thing we do know however is that its mujahiddeen precursors were being "run" by the CIA through the Pakistani ISI (secret service). So there's that pesky CIA again.
In this connection, I'd like to call attention to something I just noticed, and which gives me the chills. As indicated in the world press, the Madrid attack has come exactly 911 days after 9/11. Evidently that's part of the "message." But in Spain and the rest of continental Europe, dates are not referred to in the form "9/11", but rather "11.9." Nor do they use 911 as an emergency phone number. So the 911 days part of the message wasn't meant for Spaniards, it was meant for Americans. Another sign that Kerry needs to deal with this...
Gideon Levy sums it up perfectly in Haaretz:
In Israel we count only the number of terrorists who are killed, never the terrorists who are born as a result of IDF operations, and the number of the newborn is legion.
Interrobang - I use a form of verbal shorthand with a close friend of mine, that goes something like this:
"Why do people do so and so?"
Answer: "Short answer."
(Short answer = people are stupid.
Long answer is, people do so and so because they are stupid.)
So the reason people get so het up over terrorism is, "short answer".
Because they've never stymied their hysteria long enough to look at what the true risk is rationally. Of course, I might have a hard time doing that myself if I had been in lower Manhattan on 9/11. But none of the nervous nellies I know around these parts was there either, and some of them are still scared out of their wits that Osama bin Laden is going to target their quiet neighborhood or single-level office building in sleepy old Little Rock.
As I said, "short answer".
great point SWR -
I just watched "Gaza Strip" last night - see it if you get a chance - a documentary at the start of Sharon's election and this intifada -it centers on young boys, their deaths by the IDF, the bulldozing of house and olive groves... it's amazing that it got made.
These kids have no future other than watching their families suffer and their friends die - what do the Israelis think that will create?
The Chukakuha, the radical Marxist terrorists in Japan grew up in the devastation folllowing WWII - but their country grew and they dissipated,the remanants ending up in the Beka Valley - there is no end in sight for the apartheid being imposed on the Palestinians under the guise of "security measures" - Tell me how shooting a 12 y.o. boy in the head for throwing rocks makes Israel more secure.
Chica:
Looking for a spanish blog? Try this one -- it will lead you to algunas bitacoras, not all of them political:
http://librodenotas.com/
Tambien, this Librodenotas points to really interesting links every day.
For real alternative points of views, you could also try these:
http://www.rebelion.org/
http://www.lainsignia.org/index.html
!buena lecturaˇ
just watched "Gaza Strip" last night - see it if you get a chance - a documentary at the start of Sharon's election and this intifada -it centers on young boys, their deaths by the IDF, the bulldozing of house and olive groves... it's amazing that it got made.
I was the "anonymous" who recommended Schneier's book and was trying to connect Levy's editorial with "Beyond Fear."
Schneier breaks down any response to a perceived threat into a 5 step process.
1.) What is the threat?
2.) What are you trying to protect?
3.) What Are the actions you can take?
4.) What are possible consequences (side effects) of those actions?
5.) Are they worth it.
In Gaza.
1.) The threat? Terrorists using Gaza as a base for attacks on Israeli civilians.
2.) What are you trying to protect? Your public transportation system.
3.) What actions can you take? In this case, Sharon is working on the assumption of "collective guilt."
4.) What are the consequences? More terrorists. The coarsening of Israeli society.
5.) Is it worth it? Levy would argue no.
In the USA:
1.) What is the threat? Terrorism from Islamic militants (and probably right-wing exremists).
2.) What are you trying to protect? The USA. NYC. A hell of a fucking lot.
3.) What are the actions? Curtailing civil liberties. An aggressive military posture against all Muslim countries.
4.) What are the consequences. By curtailing civil liberties, we make Americans more obedient and more likely to acquiese when terrorists take over their 767 *(for example). Abroad, we knock out a secular Arab tyrant and create another "failed state."
5.) Is it worth it?
Didn't NYC's primaries get postponed after 9/11?...
Scott XYZ
yeah, the municipal elections got pushed back a couple weeks, since the primary was on IX/XI and things were way too fucked up that day to continue them.
Anonymous and NTodd: Marcus Ranum has a book out that blows away the myths of Homeland Security.
9/11 was Osama's Tet. He shot his wad on the USA.
"The terror is in this room."
No Fear. Fear Me.
And I'm a wimp. Imagine a kickass real-live Army or Marine vet!
Americans can defend America.
SWR, nice post. I have my own ideas, but what would you propose is the reasonable response to 9/11?
The Chukakuha, the radical Marxist terrorists in Japan grew up in the devastation folllowing WWII - but their country grew and they dissipated,the remanants ending up in the Beka Valley - there is no end in sight for the apartheid being imposed on the Palestinians under the guise of "security measures" - Tell me how shooting a 12 y.o. boy in the head for throwing rocks makes Israel more secure.
A lot of the extreme right who are arguing for some kind of a culture war against Islam miss an important point.
Islam isn't the point. The point is "haves" vs. "have nots."
Right now the "have nots" have Islam is their guiding ideology.
They could just as easily be Maoists (see Peru and the Shining Path). They could be facists (see the American South and the way poor whites embraced Jesus and racism). They could be radical Hindu nationalists.
If those same Palestinians in Gaza had the standard of living people in Seattle or Tokyo or New Jersey had, their Islam would look a lot like mainstream suburban American christianity.
I just don't understand how the line that somehow Arabs or Muslims are different from the rest of us got sold to the American people. I don't understand how conservatives now all seem to believe in some kind of infinititely mutable human nature that can be changed by a religion.
Before the election we need a full accounting of terrorist acts that have been prevented.
And not the media's version. Here are two examples.
Shoebomber. "LOSER!!!" If he was worth a shit he would have locked himself in the bathroom and blown his Nikes. Allah, ala chinga, he used matches! Not even a lighter!
Padilla: He never touched a bomb or met with anyone. Just talked about it.
Please, I would like to know of CREDIBLE references to terrorists threats and raising of the Orange Level (A day without Orange Level is like a Day without Fear)?
We will have three years of data to look at. Enough to start making some reasonable assumptions, establish some metrics and start calculating ROI.
The Republicans think ROI is "Return on Ignorance."
To me the most interesting aspect of the marchers was the signs they carried saying ***Manipulation of the Vote***
Already folks are saying that the 9.11 ads are being rejected by folks by a ratio of 2:1.
.....
SWR, nice post. I have my own ideas, but what would you propose is the reasonable response to 9/11?
Haven't the Israelis figured out how to protect aircraft against hijacking? Reinforce the cockpit doors. Put two sky marshalls on every plane. Spend the money it takes. Why haven't we simply followed the Israeli template? As fucked up as their response is in Gaza, haven't they pretty much figured out how to protect their airliners? Doesn't it simply require airlines to spend some $$$.
Fernan--
vale, estupendo--un besito a ti
Also I don’t think more of Al Qaeda activity favors Dubya, not just there is no surge in people wanting to flock to Unka Dubya, it only reinforces how bankrupt and bogus has been his lurching, snarling and grimacing all over the place, his jihadi jingoist rhetoric, his invasion of privacy and his histrionic, bamboozling, bumrushing style.
Plus people are still watching squiggely eyed as to what additional dysfunction, deceit and distortion will be coming out of him, what more of hoke and hucksterism and what more of sacrifices will be demanded.
People are also watching closely where are the jobs, when are we gonna restore the monies he looted from Social Security, when are we gonna restore the funding we need to infrastructure, education and senior’s needs, when are the troops coming home on their rotation and what is Bush gonna do about the trajectory out there.
.....
Count me in with those who think that the CW tenuously holds faith in the line that 'since there have been attacks in Bali/Turkey/Morocco/Riyadh/Spain but not the USA, the War On Some Terrorists must be working. Sort of.' And if something does happen in the run-up to the election -- Bush's scary SotU speech be damned -- then even those people who enjoy the idea of the US kicking foreign butt will really start to think that Iraq and the whole 'flypaper' line (which has become astonishingly unfashionable as of late) was a complete charade.
Spain may be an index of this.
Chica check these also
In English:
http://www.gepflegt-arrogant.com...m/
fwwfront.html
http://puertadelsolblog.com/
En Espańol:
http://callesdemadridygranada.bl...a.blogspot.com/
If Haloscan screws the links up you can get to runswithscissors through my homepage below.
Notice that when Spain experiences a terrorist attack they treat it as a crime and catch several suspects.
Notice that when Kerry agrees with that policy, one of Instafuckwit's turniphead correspondents says 'no, it's a war! it's a war!' Not quite appreciating that the whole 'it's a war! on whoever we want to invade!' attitude may just have moved Spain into the sights of the murderous bastards who carried out this attack.
Also I don’t think more of Al Qaeda activity favors Dubya, not just there is no surge in people wanting to flock to Unka Dubya, it only reinforces how bankrupt and bogus has been his lurching, snarling and grimacing all over the place, his jihadi jingoist rhetoric, his invasion of privacy and his histrionic, bamboozling, bumrushing style.
It doesn't necessarily favor Bush, but I can't beieve how people are missing the real horrible consquence that might come out of another big Al Qaeda attack in the USA.
Just imagine the column Michele Malkin would write the day after the attack. If there's another 9/11 style attack in the USA, the American people aren't going to suddenly turn rational and decide "well I guess Bush's bullying didn't work. We'd better give Kerry a chance." What they're going to say is "Bush is too soft on immigrants. Lock them all up." And if Bush doesn't demagogue the issue, someone (Pat Buchanan or somebody even worse) will.
That's what I'm afraid of. The one point where Bush and the Democrats are indistinguishable is on immigration. And the one area where Bush's right wing base is ready to dump him is on immigration.
You don't take a dumbed down, verging on facist culture like the present day USA and expect people to suddenly start thinking like (um) Frenchmen.
Anonymous in nc, I think the communities are already squiggley eyed about Iraq on account of they are still waiting for the troop returns to happen, they are watching the chaotic conditions with bated breath, they are watching to see if the handover happens and under what circumstances and whether it will have the support of the folks in the region, our allies and the Iraqi people.
Folks are also watching carefully to see how many more guard and reserve mobilizations will be happening and the big turning point came when they were demanded to fork over billions and billions to be whooshed out into Iraq and heaven knows how many billions and billions more to come.
On top of which everyone knows it is no picnic out there and any progress politically and internationally has only been made on account of Dems, any monitoring and discipline that was needed, has been requested by Dems and nixed by the Rethugs, any outreach to allies also came at the behest of Dems.
In short, his bungling, bumrushing and bamboozling ways led to all the trouble and only time we will see the favorable changes is when we put the Dems in charge 
.
.....
Folks are also watching carefully to see how many more guard and reserve mobilizations will be happening and the big turning point came when they were demanded to fork over billions and billions to be whooshed out into Iraq and heaven knows how many billions and billions more to come.
Anybody see this?
WASHINGTON -- The government is taking the first steps toward a targeted military draft of Americans with special skills in computers and foreign languages.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is adamant that he will not ask Congress to authorize a draft, and officials at the Selective Service System, the independent federal agency that would organize any conscription, stress that the possibility of a so-called "special skills draft" is remote.
Nonetheless, the agency has begun the process of creating the procedures and policies to conduct such a targeted draft in case military officials ask Congress to authorize it and the lawmakers agree to such a request.
I'm not convinced that yet another attack within the country would necesarily cement the election for Georgie.
Before 9/11, the Bush regime did their absolute best to completely ignore the problem of international terrorism. Bargaining with the Taliban, the Bush family's longtime associations with Saudi Arabia and the bin Laden family, etc, etc. Addressing the international terrorism problem would have cut into their bottom line.
Anyway, ever since they sat on their hands and let 9/11 happen, they've done nothing but exploit the event for fear. They have used a terrorist attack for their own sort of political terrorism. "We can protect you!" they wail. Nevermind that they could have stopped 9/11 from happening. Nevermind that they let bin Laden get away.
Another attack could very easily deflate this false sense of security they've tried to cloak themselves in. Especially now, after more information about 9/11 has come out.
Folks, think about that white van, left at the scene, complete with detonators and Koran. Who left it there? The actual bombs were remote controlled with cell phones. So, what the facts indicate is that the bombers drove to the train station in a van filled with conspicuously damning materials, parked, planted the bombs, walked away, detonated the bombs, then left the area leaving that van filled with conspicuously damning materials where it would be found.
Frame-ups don't get any more obvious.
Another attack could very easily deflate this false sense of security they've tried to cloak themselves in. Especially now, after more information about 9/11 has come out.
Seraphiel
yeah, Kerry needs to be hammering on the stonewalling going on with the IX/XI commission. he needs to come out and say "if we can't get to the bottom of the last attack then how the hell can we prevent the next one?" puts the ball squarely in their court for the fuckups leading to it, and lays blame on them for any next one that comes down the pike
SWR, I saw it, this may only frazzle people’s nerves even more on account of Bushie making demands, but this isn’t it, it is the stop-losses and extensions of service that are the prollem in the communities, that is how it looks. Prollem for Bushie is coming from his own side, his guard and reserve mobilizations really affected the communities, that could be why he is so eager to bring home troops and do prominent home-comings and all the rest of it.
That could also be why after almost a year of bungling and bumrushing and busting around the country with their Big Footprint policy and throwing the elbow by him and his little bungling buddy Bremer, only now with the looming election are they taking little baby steps on making the changes, but still a dismal trajectory continues, no sign that the region is signing on, no sign the Iraqi people are fully supporting nor all of the important constituencies out there.
On top of which, the whoosh of the billions and billions is a whole nuther thing that is causing the uneasiness and uproar.
Our side knows darn well we don’t want him, it’s his side he is concerned about, because they are the ones watching with the squiggely eyes at what new deceit, demand or distortion he is gonna pull on them.
Them’s the ones didn’t make the tiniest bump at his hilariously inept sotu, them is the ones who didn’t give more than the most minimal of bumps over Saddam, them is the ones watching cynically for more hoke, hucksterism and voila announcements (because they want to see what new demands he will try to make o n them) them’s the ones watching to see how many more snarls and demands he is making in general, them is the ones who apparently did not turn out in States like Georgia where they had previously surged to help their Dubya.
He has his work cut out for him over the next few months, he is gonna have to scramble like blazes all over the place and a lot of uncertainty yet to come. Meanwhile Kerry’s robust affirmations and critiques are surely having an effect .
.....
He has his work cut out for him over the next few months, he is gonna have to scramble like blazes all over the place and a lot of uncertainty yet to come.
Every prediction I've ever made about every presidential election that has taken place since I've been old enough to know what a Presidential election is has been wrong.
I thought Gore was going to win easily in 2000. I thought Dole would at least give Clinton a good run. I thought Bush I would win in 92. I thought Dukakis had a good chance in 88 and I seem to remember myself saying "wow. Mondale made a gutsy move by admitting he'd raise taxes. He's going to win for sure."
I'm going to call this one for Bush just to jinx him.
Here's Israeli intelligence -- consider the source.
Who’s Next after Madrid?
DEBKAfile Special Analysis
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=804
So the 911 days part of the message wasn't meant for Spaniards, it was meant for Americans.
Or we're giving them too much credit, and they're really just stupid enough to leave pudgy, SUV-shaped, blood red fingerprints all over everything they touch.
Oh, I forgot, the Arabs..
Frame-ups don't get any more obvious.
Maybe this is a test run by the neocons to simulate what effect a major attack would have before the US election.
I just wanted to ask if anyone else has seen Lockheed Martin's animated ad (including their slogan, "we never forget who we're working for") - it popped up when I went to check www.washingtonpost.com (front page). I'm not good at the pithy commentary...has someone seen it who is, and wants to share their thoughts?
Thanks.
BTW sorry if that was too far off-topic...can you recommend somewhere else to post my query if so? new to the blogosphere
Here's Israeli intelligence -- consider the source.
Who’s Next after Madrid?
DEBKAfile Special Analysis
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=804
Oh My | Email | Homepage | 03.14.04 - 1:44 am | #
I read the debka link, gee, I couldn’t understand what they were trying to say.
Any clue?
.....
I'm going to call this one for Bush just to jinx him.
SWR | Email | Homepage | 03.14.04 - 1:00 am | #
That’s ok, honey, we are still gonna bounce his sorry lobster butt all the way back to Waco and all the Texans who don’t want it there can wait with a giant slingshot and bounce it to wherever else they please and then we will say Mission Accomplished thank you .
.....
"we never forget who we're working for"
Sounds like a typical feel-good soft-sell corporate statement devoid of any signicant meaning.
OT: (but an interesting twist on post-terrorist attack patriotism)
A police officer from northern spain shot and killed a shop owner because the latter refused to hang a black flag of mourning on his store.
Accessable link (I prefer El Pais, but it costs $.....well, euros):
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/
20...1079188678.html
what would you propose is the reasonable response to 9/11?
cheney_usa, in addition to more real security- smarter and better paid cops and firemen- we need to uncover why the gatekeepers allowed it to happen at all.
Why was the NSA so dismissive of the threat? What led Ashcroft to stop using civilian air carriers shortly before it happened? Why was the air force not scrambled the moment it was clear what was going on and which aircraft were in play?
Who profited from this and continues to profit from the death of American citizens? Why are they not being investigated and prosecuted?
As a Palestinian I can't quite put into words the sadness, shock and utter uselessness I felt when I first heard the news that three Arab men had been arrested in connection with the attacks in Madrid.
I felt tears welling up in my eyes when I saw pictures of distraught Spaniards leaning over the coffins of their loved ones, the melancholic music playing in the background. Of all people that could have been targeted it was the Spanish...many of whom protested night and day over the war only to have that bastard Aznar push them into it.
They suffered for their leader's mistake. While I see Aznar as deplorable for whoring out his country for personal benefits in Bush's war for oil and personally guilty for every last one of his 200 dead citizens, I honestly and truly condemn these attacks against defencless, innocent civilians.
My heart goes out to all Spaniards in their time of mourning. Just wanted you all to know, including the Americans on this blog, that there are some decent, rational-thinking Arab people out there.
At least one decent thing can come out of this disaster, if we all act together: Aznar's right hand man should be denied office, Don Berlusconi will have no choice but to leave in any case, and Bliar and Bu$h won't be far behind, provided the British and Americans vote wisely. Sharon, Arafat and all current US-installed Arab dictators, without their Republican-conservative lynchpin in Washington, will be forced to follow.
Time to turn over a new leaf. To hell with ALL self-serving leaders. No more war, no more terror!
A reasonable response to 9/11? How about a resonable effort made at removing the reasons for terrorism...
In 1998, Bin Laden, along with other militant Islamist leaders, issued a statement denouncing three things, these being: The presence of thousands of American troops in Saudi Arabia; Biased support for Israel, and the sanctioning of Iraq, blamed directly for the death of hundreds of thousands of the poorest Iraqi civilians. He called for all Muslims to: “…kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military, is an individual duty of every Muslim who is able, in any country,” the manifesto reads, “until their armies, shattered and broken-winged, depart from all the lands of Islam.”
The terrorists responsible for the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 sent a letter to the New York Times which partly stated: "We declare our responsibility for the explosion on the mentioned building. This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel the state of terrorism and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region."
Former president Jimmy Carter, several years after he left the White House, said: "We sent Marines into Lebanon and you only have to go to Lebanon, to Syria or to Jordan to witness first-hand the intense hatred among many people for the United States because we bombed and shelled and unmercifully killed totally innocent villagers -- women and children and farmers and housewives -- in those villages around Beirut. ... As a result of that ... we became kind of a Satan in the minds of those who are deeply resentful."
Most Americans find it extremely difficult to believe that their foreign policy could prompt such a violent attack, as seen on 9/11.
You have to think clearly, beyond the unaive, dismissive rhetoric of: 'Terrorists are just jealous of our freedom.' You have to adress each of the key reasons for terrorist attacks, and break them down into smaller, more easily accomplishable steps.
CAUSES:
1. Total American bias for Israel (ignorance of its war crimes, vetoing action against its 74 UN resolution violations, allowing its occupation of most of the Palestinian land)
2. Thousands of American troops stationed in Saudi Arabia (Islam's holiest country), defending an ultra-rich, repressive royal family.
3. Mass starvation of almost 1.4 million Iraqi civilians through sanctions, and two thoroughly unsuccessful wars in the same country creating not much except unbelievably heavy civlian casualties.
SOLUTIONS:
1. Force Sharon to OPEN his borders to inspectors, ADMIT its war crimes, RESOLVE U.N. resolutions, REMOVE upwards of 300,000 settlers and countless troops from Palestinian land.
2. WITHDRAW the troops. Quite easy i think.
3. APOLOGISE for the mistakes made, DROP the pride and ALLOW UN forces to come in.
Terrorism is almost impossible to stop.
So is terminal cancer or kidney failure, but I'm not quivering under my blankets about such things happening to me, either. I'll do what I can to keep it from happening (quit smoking for New Year's--HOORAY!), but if it comes for me, well, it does. Sometimes, you have to find the balance between doing what you can and leaving the rest to fate or the Supreme Being of choice or whatever one wants to call it. We can't control everything.
And since we're on the topic of what to do, how about looking at fighting the REAL roots of terrorism--namely things like those in power fueling and using the religious faith of others (Saudi royals) for their own twisted ends? Things like failed diplomacy caused by ignorance, insensitivity, self-aggrandizement and imperialist dogma? These would go a lot further than planes and bombs.
MUST BE SPOKEN REGULARLY:
If there is another attack on American soil before the year's end, it is due to Bush's FAILURE to properly handle the National Defense, and NOT due to the wiley ways of olive-skinned Evil Doers.
This needs to be HAMMERED into the sheeple's heads NOW.
A question and a few thoughts:
Assuming there is a terrorist attack shortly before the November elections, how would John Kerry's response differ from George Bush's?
In the immediate aftermath of a major attack, before the specific culprits or methods had been identified, wouldn't both of their responses be largely the same? (denounce terror, pledge to improve security and hunt down those responsible).
Of course many people will say that another attack proves that Bush's policies haven't made us any safer. However, Kerry would not be able to respond this way without facing some major media criticism. Wouldn't he be accused of exploiting a tragedy for political gain, or attacking the President at a time when we need to "come together against a common emeny"? I mean, 3 years after 9/11 it's still beyond the realm of "responsible mainstream discussion" to accuse Bush of allowing it to happen. If the Democrats included the statement "9/11 happened on President Bush's watch" in a campaign add, even now it seems likely that this would backfire on them.
It seems to me a terror attack would make it harder for Kerry to be openly critical of Bush(at least for awhile), and force him to spendi more time "talking tough" on terrorism. If the attack happened close enough to the elections, wouldn't this be overall to Bush's advantage?
Wrong. Plans are already made for martial law.
Here is something to consider. george was the loser of the Bush family. Poppy could count on the others to keep their money.
Anonymous, 6:44 p.m. -- interesting post. But the martial law comment seems to contradict the rest of your post. Or I'm not understanding something. Can you explain a little more?
Streaker
Just two of the options.
If Bushco is powermad, then martial law. If poppy just wants Dubya's security and future safety, then no ma.
Elect a Democrat and plan for a competent Republican down the road.
SWR -
Great comments and links, particularly highlighting point that terrorism arises from the "have-nots" having less and less - fewer choices, resources, voices in their futures, etc.
If this Administration acted sincerely to promote the substance of democracy rather than using the word to obscure political and corporate despotism in the world's poorest and most desperate countries then there would be an immediate decline in terrorism.
Some people (think Cheney, the Likud Party - via enormous US welfare checks, Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, Shell Oil, Exxon...) make enormous amounts of money by perpetuating war and terror and human suffering.
Re: the possible drafting of techies and polyglots- remember the Army dismissed 6 Mid-East language experts right after the Afghan war began b/c the speakers of Mid-East languages were gay. This Administration can't have its hate and bigotry and draft it too. WTF???
to "the writer, etc" -
Harper's had an article before this war in Iraw about sanctions being WMD's.
Here's title and reprint url:
"Cool War: Economic Sanctions as a Weapon of Mass Destruction."
Harper's Magazine, Nov, 2002, by Joy Gordon
http://tinyurl.com/32ksl
I've seen that Lockheed-Martin ad once, and I was very surprised. You mean the one that shows a view of a landscape from high above and arrows start pointing to where the enemy might be hiding (looked like Afghanistan)? I thought I was back at the UN watching a Colin Powell presentation.
Very weird. I'm not sure if inappropriate is the right word, but I didn't think it belonged in the WaPo. Spy magazine maybe or the Neocon News.
If you looked at the pictures of the Madrid demonstrations yesterday, many of the people were holding signs saying "Bush____". My Spanish is a bit rusty, and the American networks weren't anxious to go into it, but I would guess it is something obscene, or maybe "poodle" at best. There is a significant body of opinion in Spain that Aznar brought these attacks on. The idea barely gets a mention here.
The US media only perks up when the story is about the past President's oral sex, not about the current President's lies, devastating policies and high crimes and misdemeanors.
BUSH OR NIXON - WHO HAS DONE MORE DAMAGE TO AMERICA?
Frame-ups don't get any more obvious.
Occam's Razor would beg to differ. They left that van there because they wanted people to know who did it.
I just don't understand how the line that somehow Arabs or Muslims are different from the rest of us got sold to the American people.
Americans are ignorant. Pretty much answers your question right there.
Poorly educated might be a nicer way of saying it.
Talk to someone who was educated in Europe or Japan sometime. They're much more informed than even Ivy Leaguers are about current events, geopolitics, etc.
Chinese and Indians with college educations are also very well informed, but seem to lean towards the technical side of things in my experience. The Indians write much better English than most Americans, btw.
Anyone could have left that van there. Including the investigators (Atta's passport in the rubble? Car in the parking lot with the airplane manuals?)
Keeping spending on education low is right in line with Republican priorities, btw.
Keep the people dumb, so you can manipulate them easier.
After reading not all but many of these posts, a question keeps coming up for me: Why are these attacks being discussed as if separate from the US?
I've read: "if this was to happen in the US, what would the consequences be for Bush?" or variations on this. This IS HAPPENING to Bush. This is an attack on the "coalition of the willing", it's a direct attack on Bush. It's not on American soil but it's a clear fuck you to America. I see it as a failure of current policies and strategies against Al-Qaeda and so will the rest of the world. What's happening in the US that we cannot see ourselves as part of an international effort? Only two countries have full-heartedly supported and aided the Bush Administration in their misguided position; now one of them is paying dearly for these support and Americans don't even feel like this has to do with us??????
Why would we want to take this type of distance with what has happened -is happening- in Spain? On 9/11, Europeans embraced a "we're all New Yorkers" attitude. On 3/11, Americans are more American than ever, watching carefully from our solipsistic cage.
When I say 'anyone', I mean ETA could have left it there so everyone would 'know' Islamists did the attack, with the idea of disrupting the elections.
Anyone could have left that van there. Including the investigators (Atta's passport in the rubble? Car in the parking lot with the airplane manuals?)
Occam's Razor: One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.
The simplest explanation is that the people who did the bombing left the van there. One should never leap into a conspiracy without evidence of conspiration.
so you can manipulate them easier
More easily, even.
Magnum,
Can you tell I'm a product of US public schools? LOL
Monkey,
You're adding the entity of al-Qaeda's wanting the world to know they carried out the attack. It's no further the stretch that ETA would want to mislead the world to the same conclusion. It is a stretch that the investigators would, but not by much. Look at how quickly Aznar got the EU to denounce ETA before any evidence at all was available.
mena,
"Or we're giving them too much credit, and they're really just stupid enough to leave pudgy, SUV-shaped, blood red fingerprints all over everything they touch.
Oh, I forgot, the Arabs..."
No, mena, those who can pull off an operation like that are not stupid. Leaving such "stupid" traces is deliberate. Just like the korans, flight manuals, "last will and testament," passport fluttering down from the Twin Towers, and other ridiculously planted evidence with 9/11. -- Rather, it is the people that believe them that are stupid. Provocateurs count on mass stupidity (enhanced by fear). Think Again (above) is right -- "frame-ups don't get any more obvious." It doesn't mean that Arabs weren't necessarily the immediate hit men. It does mean that a lot more was behind this. -- I'll say it again. Here it is 2 1/2 years after 9/11 and few Americans have yet heard of "Operation Gladio". This stuff actually happened in Europe repeatedly through the 1970s and 1980s. It was done by extreme right, blamed on extreme left, for political manipulation of the public through fear. -- Let me just point out another interesting fact. One of the masterminds of Gladio, Licio Gelli, former head of the ultra-secretive fascist P2 lodge, just finished his long prison sentence a few months ago, Probably just a coincidence.
John Phalen at Online Journal writes: " In a psy-war effort to alienate the public from the political left, they launched bogus left-wing terror outfits (the "Baader-Meinhof Gang") or framed real leftist undergrounds (the "Red Brigades") for atrocities they committed themselves. In Italy, where the Stay Behind operation was code-named "Gladio," agents posing as left-wing extremists perpetrated many public bombings during the '70s, killing at least 300 people. These culminated in the August 1980 Bologna Train Station Bombing, which killed 86. The 1978 kidnapping and murder of Aldo Moro was another Gladio exploit. These activities had one purpose: to portray the political left as public enemy number one, thus isolating it domestically while building consent for military escalation and NATO aggression against the Soviets."
(http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/
112603Phalen/112603phalen.html)
Doesn't this modus operandi ring a bell? True, we don't have Soviets anymore -- now it's "terrorism" -- providing a blank check for anything, any time, anywhere. I know many shy away from "conspiracy theories." Unfortunately, it's undeniable that mass terrorism like 9/11 and 11-M simply doesn't happen without ACTUAL conspiracies. It behooves us to try to understand their nature and real purpose.
Bush let it happen
Tenet says it's still unsafe
they have earned my vote
jimmy,
change the last line to 'they have lost my vote' and it sounds better.
Jimmy,
Haikus are meant to evoke emotion via images, particularly in their last line.
Use images, young poet. Show, don't tell:
Bush sat in class
While history fell
From a clear, blue morning.
You're adding the entity of al-Qaeda's wanting the world to know they carried out the attack.
No, I'm assuming that the people who do such an attack want the world to know that they did it. I think that's a given.
Again, if there is EVIDENCE that ETA did this bombing, then by all means present it. I haven't heard any, and I've heard plenty that points to AQ.
Terrorists groups don't always want everyone to know they carried out an attack, in fact it's not unusual. Terrorists don't just want attention; sometimes they want to affect a political outcome or public opinion, or sometimes hatred is enough motive for what they do.
The van driven by ETA members with 500 kg stopped on the way into Madrid two weeks before the bombings was stronger circumstantial evidence than anything yet pointing the finger at al-Qaida. The Moroccans who were arrested have so far only been nailed for unauthorised selling of SIM cards.
If there is another attack on American soil before the year's end, it is due to Bush's FAILURE to properly handle the National Defense,
More to the point, 9/11 happened due to Georgie's failure to properly handle the national defense.
Bush/Cheney 2004: You Can't Argue With Failure!
It would actually be due more to al-Qaeda not attempting any more attacks. How many attacks have been thwarted? There's been a few right-wing terrorist plots by whitey that have been foiled (and way under-reported compared to the way plots by sand nigas would have been).
So y'all are hoping Bush fails as a result of his success in thwarting terrorism?
Good strategy. The same kind of thinking got Reagan reelected.
So y'all are hoping Bush fails
No, even though that's the only thing that could conceivably save his sorry inept butt.
"Keep the people dumb, so you can manipulate them easier."
You mean, don't you, "manipulate them more easily." (If you're an American, I guess you're proving your own point?)
So y'all are hoping Bush fails as a result of his success in thwarting terrorism?
Success?
The victims of the anthrax attacks, soldiers killed by roadside bombs, Spaniards blown to pieces a few days ago, Israelis, tourists in Bali, people at a Russian theater, might all have something to say about Georgie's "success" in thwarting terrorism.
Thanks, Magnum, for pointing out the oft-forgotten racial/racist dimensions here.
The elections are showing a clear erosion of support for Unka Dubya’s buddies.
Definitely looks like the Ruling party has had an erosion of support. They were 4-5% points ahead, maybe even a little more and now their lead has been completely eroded, meanwhile the oppo has seen a last-minute surge.
There were already signs in yesterday’s march Protesting what they termed as Manipulation of the Vote. This was a very telling sign, it showed that they are taking very seriously the feints and misdirections by somebody who was holding himself up as reliable and trustworthy and I think we will find that no matter what happens, this is now a cloud on Aznar and Rajoy and any of their associates.
.....
So y'all are hoping Bush fails as a result of his success in thwarting terrorism?
Good strategy. The same kind of thinking got Reagan reelected.
Tony A | Email | Homepage | 03.14.04 - 1:07 pm | #
Well, Bush is doing a perfectly fine job of failing without anyone’s help or hoping is how it looks.
This is the same kind of Lack of Clue, bungling and bamboozling that got his Daddy’s tuchas bounced.
Like father, like son, one term and they’re done .
.....
If the people in Spain thought that the answer to their circumstances is more of Dubya’s brand of lurching and snarling, they woulda flocked to Unka Dubya’s enablers and buddies.
Clearly all the flocking happened in the opposite direction, thank you, on this we can be perfectly clear .
.....
So y'all are hoping Bush fails
No, even though that's the only thing that could conceivably save his sorry inept butt.
Magnum | Email | Homepage | 03.14.04 - 1:20 pm | #
Nothing will save his sorry inept butt at this point on, it is slip-sliderino downhill all the way, or actually it is little blips of ups and downs, but the overall trajectory is slip-sliding downhill all the way.
.....
It is in Al Qeada's interest to have Bush elected (not re-elected) It suits their purpose. Bush is reacting just like they wanted him to. Doesn't anyone else see that?
Vinnie
you, sir, are correct. who better for a wacked-out violent Islamic cult to have as an enemy than an arrogant right-wing fundamentalist Christian who has no respect in the world except at the point of a gun and who doesn't have sense enough to go into a fight without covering his back? He's perfect.
IF we can get Bush out, Kerry's got his work cut out trying to patch up the mess those bastards have created.
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