I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
God, Buckley is such a pain in the ass just to read from beginning to end.
Hope I don't have to do that again any time soon. I'm exhausted. Going back to bed.
Bush wins the edumacated vote in Alabama, Mississipi,Georgia 110% over Goer and thoes foolz and homoes in Massachoosets, California and Jew York too. Ha. Ha Ha.
"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."
Yeah, that public treasury isn't for the voters, it's for the oligarchs.
I had a history teacher in the tenth grade who wrote that sequence of the progress of history on the black board. He was also a raving John Bircher and a massive bigot. The first person I ever heard use several racial and ethinc slurs IN CLASS.
The only thing I agree with is that the 2000 election was a step toward the end of democracy.
What a bunch of drivel masquerading as eddykashun. I blame the postmodern glorification of the shifting narrative.
"Adding up the counties in the U.S. won by the two candidates, it was Gore 677, Bush 2,434. Taking the population of those counties, it was 143 million for Bush, 127 million for Gore. In square miles of land won, Gore 580,000, Bush 2,427,000. The murder rate in Gore counties, 13.2 per 100,000 residents, contrasted with 2.1 in the Bush counties"...
What the Fuck is his point here? I've seen this funky type of wacked out reasoning before but this type of logic is truly dizzying
Well, they do say that a democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
That being said, the media, and the multinationals have done an excellent job confusing people into not believing they have the power to prevent their being screwed by the elite.
If the bottom 55% got together in one party, just based on economics, the wealthy would be terrified. The fact that the sheep making $25,000 a year don't understand that the person making $5,000,000 a year, advocating outsourcing, may not have the same interests as they do, is fascinating sociologically speaking.
One of my pet theories about why things are the way they are, including the decline of unions, is the pay scale changes in journalists.
When journalists genuinely were working class, their coverage reflected their upbringing. Now with journalists coming from elite prep schools, ivy league colleges, vacationing on Martha's Vinyard and the Hampton's, it affects how they see the world.
Maybe it is accidental, but the wisest thing wealthy barons have ever done is to turn journalism into an upper class profession. The dividends continue to pay off.
"Gore's territory encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare . ."
Wow, where does one begin after reading this racist trival
Hey Atrios...can we please have a virtual End the Occupation of Iraq march here today? Please? Pleeeeeze?
Here's what the Italians are doing today:
http://tinyurl.com/yun9f
"Nothing that protracted needs to happen in order to effectively halt our armed determination to bring democracy to Iraq."
Can one really bring democracy via the point of a gun?
Just asking.
.
Buckley is just as full of shit as the rest of the conservatives. Everyone was supposed to "respect" him because he presented his prejudices in long, obscure words. Passing judgment on others, and taking a dispassionate approach towards combat deaths, is easy if you were born into the ruling class.
Bush: The candidate who carried more acreage. The candidate "elected" by the country's empty spaces. Well, at least he's representative of his constituency.
"As historians point out, democracies do not engage in aggressive wars."
This guy is a riot!
.
Hey its National Review. Actually research is frowned upon.
Once in a great while, someone says something that actually helps makes sense of the world. Nice work Trifecta.
I'm guess that the huge (non urban legend) disparity in number of counties won, might not be much differant than many other elections. As if greater land ownership should grant one greater influence in our fine political system. Oh, wait...
I'm also so goddamn tired of this lie that all of us in the cities live in some welfare state while those in the suburbs and rural areas are hardworking, tax paying Americans.
I won't even go off on what a lie that is. I don't have the energy right now.
Ah, so that's where "..I.." got the drivel s/he posted in the Operation Ignore thread. (Ahem, I'll note I posted a link to Snopes...)
Uh, is Buckley implying that Bush has us in the next Vietnam?
In response to this annoying bit of Buckley's, I know I should say "But for the grace of God, go I". After all, partisans of whatever affiliation tend to feel a fun, little emotional rush whenever they see something that reinforces their belief that the actions of their opponents are bringing the world to hell in a handbasket. Hence, they apply much lower standards of proof (if applying any at all) for articles reinforcing their preexisting belief than for those opposing them. Indeed, this is the fundamental mechanism by which a group of rational , basically well-meaning individuals can be expected more often than not to *disagree* than *agree* on most any issue, even one that they'd all declare is fundamentally a "factual" issue.
But I have a sense this high-mindedness doesn't apply here. Though Buckley is in all likelihood much less smart than his measured debating style and voluminous vocabulary generally suggest, he's probably plenty smart enough to know he's printing Grade-B Bullplop.
(Damn, this whole trying to understand and even love your enemies thing is really tough.)
"Democracy just doesn't work, much of the time."
(snip urban legend)
"This tells us how wrong it is to make facile generalities about the workings of democracy."
Uh, didn't he just do that in the previous paragraph?
.
It's true that democracies do not engage in aggressive wars. America stopped being a democracy when the presidential election was stolen by BushCo. The war of aggression in Iraq followed.
Well, I do hope you can recall previous courriels of mine. In the event you'd like a couple hints, let me first present this one, like so: "some sixty years hence, the curators of the Reagan Library will have to devote a wing to a bed-and-breakfast nook ... maybe, a massage parlour, even". Okay, here's the other one, like so: "there's no way Joe Scarborough can forever evade questions about the dead intern, whose corpse was found in his Florida office".
Anyway, I do hope those two suffice. This time, I'd like you to consider reading the text for a "state of the union" address that I believe is imperative for this country of ours. To get to it, all you need do is click on the below enclosed U.R.L
http://www.bcvoice.com/modules.p...article&
sid=205
By the way, the proprietors of the www.BCVoice.com website have provided a couple ways for you to leave your comments
I'm so sick of that Stephanie Herseth Ad.
Uh, I guess Buckley just "forgot" to say that Bush states, as net recipients of federal funds, are the ones living off of the largess of the hardworking citizens of Gore states, which are net donors to the federal treasury.
Remember in '95 when Gingrich went to NYC and was spreading similar myths to the "government dependancy" we see here? He said that NYC was a suckhole for federal money, and it all went to welfare and the mafia. A very steamed Rudy Giuliani was all over TV debunking him, saying NYC sent 9 billion more per year to the feds than it got back, while Gingrich's district was the real 2 billion suckhole with military and highway pork. Newtie didn't enjoy his trip to the big city very much, but you can bet he recycled the same crapola for the next meeting of the Cobb county jaycees or whatever. It's crucial to the self-image of much of white suburbia that they're the "real" America, and everyone else is parasitic on the prosperity they generate. I think we can see from the ongoing resistance to evolution that you can't fight myth with facts, so even when a fallacious argument is exposed, it will just mutate into a different form and return
William F. Buckley is as big an asshole today as he was in 1968, when he called Gore Vidal a queer on national television and threatened to "sock [Vidal] in [his] goddamn face."
The entire NRO crowd is intellectually bankrupt, and Buckley is no better or worse than any of them.
William F. Buckley is as big an asshole today as he was in 1968, when he called Gore Vidal a queer on national television and threatened to "sock [Vidal] in [his] goddamn face."
The entire NRO crowd is intellectually bankrupt, and Buckley is no better or worse than any of them.
Hang down your head, Bill Buckley,
Hang down your head and lie,
Hang down your head, Bill Buckley,
Tomorrow there's Humble Pie
Lazy are the ways of the pedant,
Sloppy is the game you play
Dress up your words in finery
It's all just shit at the end of the day...
+++
Even if this thing wasn't an urban legend, what does it even tell us? That rural living makes one intrinsically more prepared to participate in democracy than urban living does?
Seems like, if anything, the exact opposite would be true.
Not that this means much, but he (they) totally forgot that half million popular vote difference. Who won that? It was Gore, wasn't it? How in the world could they just leave that out? Such a scholar as Buckley, to whom listening is like hearing fingernails on a chalkboard. But they're from those 'suspect' people in those places where people shouldn't have been voting in the first place! When will we ever see the light?
There's another one, 5-4, but that's probably not important either.
Vern,
Wasn't it Chomsky he threatened with physical assault?
Noam would probably have kicked his ass for him.
GOOGLE
Searched the web for bush lies. Results 1 - 10 of about 1,830,000. Search took 0.13 seconds
I tried to send National Review an email in protest of this column. Got a "server down for maintenance" bounce. Go figure!
OT, I live in Orlando, and I have a bunch of F-16 flying of the neighborhood. We are about 8-10 miles NW of where the Pres. will be. Those jets are disturbing my Saturday morning cartoons.
I just wrote a e-mail to Buckley asking him to check his facts before writing articles, and asked if there will be a retraction. His e-mail link is on his article.
it doesn't take into account that all that LAND in those state isn't taxed the same . much of it is being subsidised by the feds. the red states put less into the federal govt and take more out than the dem states.
the feds are also massively subsidising the BIG farms instead of the small farmer. this is a bunch of horse crap perpetuated on the idiot poor republican sheep to keep them docile
Vern Morrison sez: "The entire NRO crowd is intellectually bankrupt"
Intellectually, ethically, and morally bankrupt, judging by how quickly they went from "Character Counts" to "It's Okay If You Are Republican."
Got 2 news items from NYT:
Capt. James J. Yee, the former Muslim chaplain at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, is acquitted of all charges.
A ``Bush-Cheney '04'' campaign jacket sold on the Internet has stirred controversy because it was made in Myanmar, whose imports have been banned by the United States.
Maybe it is accidental, but the wisest thing wealthy barons have ever done is to turn journalism into an upper class profession. The dividends continue to pay off.
Trifecta, that was a great insight.
Poor ol' Bill. He's really drifted off into oblivion, while the kids he left in charge thinks that a conservative magazine should publish the ravings of " America's Worst Mother™."TBogg.
In response to this annoying bit of Buckley's, I know I should say "But for the grace of God, go I". After all, partisans of whatever affiliation tend to feel a fun, little emotional rush whenever they see something that reinforces their belief that the actions of their opponents are bringing the world to hell in a handbasket. Hence, they apply much lower standards of proof (if applying any at all) for articles reinforcing their preexisting belief than for those opposing them. Indeed, this is the fundamental mechanism by which a group of rational , basically well-meaning individuals can be expected more often than not to *disagree* than *agree* on most any issue, even one that they'd all declare is fundamentally a "factual" issue.
But I have a sense this high-mindedness doesn't apply here. Though Buckley is in all likelihood much less smart than his measured debating style and voluminous vocabulary generally suggest, he's probably plenty smart enough to know he's printing Grade-B Bullplop.
(Damn, this whole trying to understand and even love your enemies thing is really tough.)
i've got no complaints about that article. a little boring and pointless.
he only cited the county data, of which part was true and part was incorrect only by a matter of degree.
it seems to me he said:
1) iraq isn't going so hot
2) i'd like us to succeed in iraq
3) democracy is a funny thing tho
and i give him many bonus points for not spewing the blatant BS: "the spanish people voted for bin Laden!!"
ps: cavil is a :cool: word
pps: this is a good reminder tho, to the many who said meanish things about snopes over the Michael Moore incident. 99.9% of all slanders spread in urban legend form on the net are created and spread by right wing nuts, so like it or not snopes is a liberal by default from his general preferance for facts.
Sent an email to tell them to check their facts, this is what I got back:
"Bounced... National Review email is down for maintenance."
(sigh) Typical.
William F. Buckley = hack
Got it. Who's next on the list?
Why is CNN "covering" a W campaign speech? Christ, at least pretend to be "objective."
I actually know Professor Joseph Olson, and although he didn't do any of the cited "research", it wouldn't suprise me if he had, as he is a Republican Bastard.
Why is CNN "covering" a W campaign speech? Christ, at least pretend to be "objective."
Why start now?
I'm glad Bush "won" all those tumbleweeds, vacant lots, coyote dens and uninhabitable areas without infrastructure like roads, electricity, and running water. Maybe someone needs to remind Mr. Stick up his Ass that *people* vote in elections, not inanimate objects like rocks, and based on that, Gore got more votes than Bush.
It just makes me wonder how people like Buckley can simultaneously be so damned dumb but creative enough to come up with all these outlandish excuses for why Bush has such "strong" support.
I can't believe that Buckley has sunk to citing totally spurious legends in something he has written - how old is that mofo now? I always thought that if he was half as smart as he thinks he is he might be a reasonably intelligent guy. However, vocabulary is a piss poor indicator of reasoning ability. In fact, I'm inherently suspicious of anyone who goes out of his or her way to use to the most obscure words he or she can find.
And I hate that droning - like fingernails on a blackboard.
It seems like most people with IQ's above room temparature would be able to figure out that if Gore won the popular vote by state, he should also win the popular vote by county....
he must get them from George you should be sure and hear his speech today ..it's filled with urban legends.
he must get them from George you should be sure and hear his speech today ..it's filled with urban legends.
This part is great:
That desire (to "vouchsafe" democracy to the Iraqis) is entirely sincere; there is nothing concealed there, no underground takeover of the oil fields, no impositions on the policies adopted by the new Iraqi Governing Council.
All that's missing is the laugh track.
But we have not succeeded.
Doesn't Bill realize that he's endangering the morale of our troops? Besides, I distinctly remember the Pretzeldent declaring victory, so how can he say we didn't win?
I thought it was "one person-one vote" and not 1 square mile-one vote!
Rockefeller the elder once suggested $1 in personal wealth-one vote.
Sigh, what's the issue? Actual research is for actual liberal ivory tower America-hating professors. Asking for research to match up to facts shows a clear pinko bias.
Memo to Republican state legislators everywhere: Time to cut funding for higher education again.
william f. buckley believes in god and is very vocal about it. because of this obvious mental illness, i think he should be ignored or given the address of a good psychiatrist.
Thanks for bringing back memories of those Vidal-Buckley debates. I remember watching them with my now dead reactionary dad.
I graduated from high school in 1968, the year of Tet, MLK abd RJK assassinations, Chicago and local farm boys coming home in body bags or as pot-smoking drop outs.
Dad, who had educated so many of them, just didn't know what to make of it.
We watched the convention and Buckley-Vidal as the police riots raged in the background. Early, before Buckley had his complete intellectual breakdown, even dad concluded Vidal tied him in knots.
Tena said:
I can't believe that Buckley has sunk to citing totally spurious legends in something he has written...
I'm not surprised at all. Buckley has consistantly taken the creationist side in debates about what should be taught in HS biology. I think he believes stronly in the "noble lie." In other words, it's OK to lie to the common people for their own good. He most likely knew the statistics he cited were worthless, just as he knows that creationism is worthless, but he doesn't care. Lies are justified as long as they keep hoi polloi in line.
Actually, Atrios, he's peddling TWO urban legends. The one about the Tyler quote, but also the old canard that "As historians point out, democracies do not engage in aggressive wars."
The ultimate rebuttal to that argument is found here.
Short answer: World War 1. India and Pakistan. Croatian War of Independence. Hell, even the Border War between Ecuador and Peru if you think Fujimori legitimately enacted emergency powers.
If nothing else, Buckley should remember his classics. The wars between the Greek city-states? The Punic Wars?
As a sidenote, that link also seems to be where Tom Friedman got his "No two countries with McDonald's' have ever fought" line. Which the page also debunks.
OT,
read http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4564244/
and these morons think they support our troops????
I'm surprised no one has yet pointed out this amazing observation in Buckley's conclusion:
"Terrorists can now detonate from a fair distance blockbuster-dimension bombs in sites that could not reasonably have been anticipated as likely targets of the enemy. Who would have thought to protect a commuter train in Madrid, or a middle-level hotel in Baghdad? Or, for that matter, the twin towers of Manhattan?"
Well, Jeez Louise. Maybe the fact that the same gang had actually exploded a TRUCK BOMB in the basement of the twin towers in 1993, killing six people and injuring a thousand, might have tipped someone off that this was a target that deserved protection. Ya think?
Gore Vidal was right.
Off Topic, but Ted Kennedy has a < a href="http://tinyurl.com/272dm">
great op-ed in the LA Times.
Registration IS required, but if you use the super secret Eschaton account I just set up:
username: big-o
password: showtime
you can read it for free.
william f. buckley believes in god and is very vocal about it. because of this obvious mental illness, i think he should be ignored or given the address of a good psychiatrist.
I'm not even sure about this. Buckley thinks that other people should believe in god, especially the poor and poorly educated, since that belief is all that keeps them from running amok.
There is a wonderful article I would link to here if I could find it. Oh well.
Bugger!
Try that again!
Off Topic, but Ted Kennedy has a
great op-ed in the LA Times.
Registration IS required, but if you use the super secret Eschaton account I just set up:
username: big-o
password: showtime
you can read it for free.
That whole bit about the population of the counties won by Bush being more than the population of counties won by Gore is absurd.
Hey Buckley, you old fart, the population of countries whose popular vote Gore won is around 250 million, while the population of countries whose popular vote Bush won is 0. Wow, is Bush ever unpopular!
Snopes is a wonderful thing!
I wish there was something like it for the current administration.
Oh, wait... Right... blogs.
Never mind!
Also OT, but Straights for Queers!
Why doesn't Buckley talk about illegitimacy anymore?
greg agni - I don't dispute your argument that Buckley embraces the "big lie." I'm just surprised that he couldn't do any better in coming up with support for whatever the hell his thesis is here than something that has been de-bunked by Snopes.com. If you see what I mean - I'm constantly amazed at how bad the lies are that the neo-cons, RR and rightwing pundits keep feeding the public. You'd think they could make better shit up than this...
And I hate that droning - like fingernails on a blackboard.
Tena
And don't forget Buckley's slouch, too. My only fond memory of Ted Koppel is Koppel telling Buckley to sit up straight (during a discussion of the TV movie The Day After). A startled Buckley sat up before he realized what he was doing, and Koppel explained that the mike wasn't catching WFB's mumbled polysyllables. I'd have made him sit up straight on principle regardless of the mike.
When journalists genuinely were working class, their coverage reflected their upbringing. Now with journalists coming from elite prep schools, ivy league colleges, vacationing on Martha's Vinyard and the Hampton's, it affects how they see the world.
Trifecta, plenty of journalists are working-class, even in Washington. A friend of mine who started at an influential DC Congressional publication there earned $25,000 his first year, and that was only five years ago.
Plenty of newspaper reporters are working class, even in big cities, even those in the Newspaper Guild. Trouble is, their editors and the people who own their companies aren't working class, and they call the shots more than they should.
"Journalists" aren't at fault here, their corporate masters are. And Conrad Black can kiss my ass for all he understands about "real people," or his own reporters for that matter.
A.
how about the fact that 1/2 million MORE people voted for Gore than fuckface bush?
Fuck them
"You'd think they could make better shit up than this..."
JACK KELLY: Okay, I'm tryin', I'm tryin'.
I was showing my wife the thread from last night, where Fools Golden got his upcomeance from Old Hat, among others as good, and she said: that guy, Fools Golden, writes like someone who's never had a paper handed back to him with "This will not do, Mr. Fool there is a library in this school- use it"
And I still remember, and treasure the memory of the first time I read Buckley and Will and realised "These guys are just using fency words to polish up what is basically bigotry and ignorance. If I think about it a while, I could recall what the column was about.
Or I could do something useful, or good.
There are plenty of journalists around who could do great work, but they aren't being hired by the mainstream press, or are being muzzled when they do get hired.
There are plenty of journalists around who could do great work, but they aren't being hired by the mainstream press, or are being muzzled when they do get hired.
Why do the conservatives seem to have given up on democracy?
Many of my conservative friends seem to think that democracy has failed since the majority of voters in this country are,in their opinion lazy and ignorant.They would have no problem with an "elightend dictatorship" or a sort of corporate oligarchy replacing the current government.
Buckley, obtuse,trapeziodal, a pyramid scheme designed to implode on its logic. But its overt inetntion is so over the top he gets away with it with the company he keeps.
There are only 2 places for Buckley- the first would be the Bush cabinet, whereupon one winded monotone quote would render bush vocally incapable of anything aside from grunts like slingblade or chimp rants-screams.
The other place would be the mcGlaughlin where an old rude prude of man shouts "YES OR NO!" and renders Buckley speechless because he is incapable of brief, concise statements.
When Commander-in-Chief George W. Bush issued strong, unyielding statements that made it clear he will stay the course in Iraq and in the war against terrorist networks everywhere, the U.S. stock market rallied a couple hundred points. How fitting is that. Most in the media do not recognize that the stock market is the most all-inclusive barometer of the health and security of the U.S. economy and the nation's body politic. In fact, ever since the U.S.-led campaign to liberate Iraq began a year ago, stock indexes have steadily gained ground.
This indicates clearly that America is safer and more secure as a result of the war in Iraq — which has become the fulcrum battleground in the war on terror.
It is tragic that the Spanish electorate appeased terrorists by voting out the pro-war conservative party and electing the anti-war socialists. The great symbol of Spain used to be the tough and daring matador, unafraid to take on the dangerous bull. Now Neville Chamberlain's umbrella has become — at least temporarily — that nation's operating metaphor.
-Lawrence Kudlow
The really bad thing about the Buckley piece is that my reactionary brother will probably e-mail it to me with a snide little note along the lines of "I just thought you might find this interesting." I despair....
How much longer will Buckley be allowed to lie with impunity?
nonsense is nonsense no matter the source...william conceals no new ideas
nor brings any new direction to the tired discourse of the wingnuters...his nunance is too confuse with old
tarted up arguements that seem to be familiar but not quite sane...mixing
numbers adds abstraction upon confusion to obscure any chance of any
one having to understand this phoney
position of logic...the seeming purpose to make william appear thoughtful and sane when he's just another asshole with a degree in some
useless bullshit as it reads in his
screeds...fortunately we've got Atrios
and our voices to counter this same
old shit from william's ilk...be there in November........x
Roger Smith! You are the dominus of a megadeus! ACTION!
What ...I... says is complete bullshit.
The Bushies have manipulated the stock market with tax cuts for the wealthy owners of capital and with making dividends tax-free.
A better indicator is net financial assets.
Middle and incomes groups have gotten steadily poorer since 1973.
In response to an earlier comment;
I'm not sick of the Herseth ad. I think she's kinda cute in a politician kind of way. She'd get MY vote, rahr.
middle and LOWER incme groups.
sheesh
I see Kudlow picked up Wolfie's bull analogy.
Bullshit.
The great symbol of Spain used to be the tough and daring matador, unafraid to take on the dangerous bull.
Instead, Spain has decided to take on the terrorists AND the Bush administration.
No cowards, they.
If democracy is such an inherantly flawed piece o' crap system then why the hell are we trying to export it to Iraq? Can Buckley tell me that? Oh, yeah... maybe it's all just smoke and mirrors to give a feel-good noble lie to what we're really after?
That's bullshit about the Gore counties depending most on the "public treasury". It's republican states that get the lion's share of government spending. From defense contracts to farm subsidies, to subsidies for sports stadiums, the rich and the Republicans get a lot more welfare than Democrats.
Compassionate conservatism means never having to say you're sorry.
Can someone explain the final comment on John Stuart Mill? I am fairly familiar with Mill's work, and other than trashing a famous liberal philosopher, it made no sense to me.
Actually, in class I use a map published every few years by the Tax Foundation. As several have pointed out above, the positive correlation between bush (league?) states & states receiving more fed $ than they pay in is phenomenally high (as is the converse--Gore states are literally paying more than their share).
BTW, 30 (yipes!) years ago in high school I had an English teacher who specialized in argumentation. We analyzed columnists for accuracy, & Buckley columns were full of made-up "facts".
Oh, and OT, but Rhea County, Tenn., getting all the free publicity it could handle, reversed it's decision to ban gays. Via the Guardian:
http://tinyurl.com/2vrzx
There's a lovely little quote from a seventh-grade girl about how she don't want no nasty fags in her Christian community. Me, I'm just waiting for her to have that first confused, semi-lesbian experience in college...
lies, damned lies and statistics.
and george STILL lost per PERSON.
"Most in the media do not recognize that the stock market is the most all-inclusive barometer of the health and security of the U.S. economy and the nation's body politic"
Who the fuck in the media DOESN'T see the stock market that way? Kudlow's out of his mind. He himself is on a station completely devoted to this shit. Hours in each broadcast day from NPR and PBS to MSNBC and FOX are spent pouring over these fucking numbers and talking up the market.
I'd love to see the closing numbers presented for what they are: a barometer of the financial health of a small elite.
"Why is CNN "covering" a W campaign speech? Christ, at least pretend to be "objective."" TownDrunk
It's the 'kick-off' they said -- all cables were covering and C-Span.
"This tells us how wrong it is to make facile generalities about the workings of democracy. How would the Iraqis themselves vote, if given the option between tranquilization under a Saddam successor, or months and years of terrorism? The United States suffers from the immaterialization of an objectifiable enemy: there is no Berlin, no Tokyo, no enemy fleet. There is just John Stuart Mill." --William F. Buckley
"Not all stupid people are conservative, but most conservative people are stupid." --John Stuart Mill
Our venture there is as innocent as any national expedition in modern history: We went in order to eliminate any capacity to make weapons of mass destruction, and in order to export the blessings of democracy.
He's clearly delusional. Well look on the bright side, he's really old, maybe old age will get him soon.
See, I told you guys he was part of the new york times axis of journalistic appeasement.
"Can someone explain the final comment on John Stuart Mill? I am fairly familiar with Mill's work, and other than trashing a famous liberal philosopher, it made no sense to me."
On Liberty, I'd guess. Though Utilitarianism would actually apply (from the neocon perspective) better. We, as Americans, have no specific enemy, but we know from first principles as espoused by Mill that our values our good. Even if we don't have someone to fight, we have something to fight for.
I get the impression that he hasn't read Mill lately though.
The media doesn't consider the stock market an economic barometer? What planet are you from? Man, if it ain't the stock market, it's the Dow Jones, and as long as those are okay - which means rich folks are getting even richer - everything is sunshine and rainbows here in the Good Ol' U.S.A. Them folks that are having to work three jobs to get by or take out a second mortage or can't afford college (or pay off their college loans) or can't find good paying jobs...hell, they don't matter. Worryin' about bills is for little people.
Sorta OT, but everytime I hear some conservative commentator like Ann Coulter (especially that WASP nightmare, frankly) claim liberals are "out of touch" with mainstream America, I wonder when's the last time she had to let the phone bill ride so she could keep her power on. In other words, ...you...are full of horse doody.
As for the Big Lie and how religion is good for poor people because it keeps 'em from running amok, well...friends and neighbors, there's the entire history of Christianity in a nutshell. Like I said in the previous post, if you had no exposure to the Bible (or any religion) until you hit 18, you wouldn't believe a damn word of it.
As a student/investor of the stock market over the years I really don't believe that it is a barometer of the health of the US. It is an element of how things are going but one of many that must be analyzed together. For 100 years the stock market has risen more in dem controlled white houses than repub controlled ones.
Please don't trash or loop all stock investors with the rich. I'm not rich but continue to make money in it despite who is in power. However, I've learned: I have never voted republican and I never will. The stock market does well with consistency in government-republicans never supply that.
George W. Bush = Alex Rosewater? Gad, I love a site with Big O references... (grin)
MRB,
Perhaps I was a bit harsh and I freely admit not all rich folks are bad. Greed is one thing while making bank because you're good at what you do is indeed quite another. And you make an excellent point in that Wall Street went gang-busters when a Democrat was in office, though you'll be hard-pressed to find a Republican who'll admit it.
Still, while the stock market may not be an accurate yardstick for economic health, I'd argue it's surely considered such by the mainstream media. It's all the finanical sections talk about, it seems, when it doesn't mean diddley to folks who can't afford to tumble that particular pair of dice or don't choose to. It has an effect on the economy, I'm sure - I slept through my college econ classes, so pardon my admitted ignorance - but it isn't as all-encompassing as the news would have us believe.
.
I think that so much media time is spent on it for the same reason as they spend so much time on sports-because a lot of people are interested in it, it is constantly changing, it has so many nuances-you never get a real grip on it because it's constantly changing and being influenced by other things. Actually, these reasons are what makes it so entertaining. Then when anyone, reporters or experts, try to analyze it, it's just hillarious because no one really understands it or can tell what it might do or why it has done what it has done. Still, like managing a huge company, a reduction in outside stimula is a positive. When things are running smooth and steady one can better judge the near future. Repubs can't seem to do this-they got to find someone to fight or piss off or lie about and the stock market doesn't know how to assimulate that. Many say the stock market adapts to everything that goes on and at times is 6 months into the future. After studying it for 20 or more years I'd have to say that in some cases this is true. What about the recent turn downward-what can it mean? The stock market doesn't like unknowns and the future election being so close is an unknown!! I won't say what I think the market means-I'd sound as stupid as the stock experts and there's no way I'd no anyway. Almost like-what will Iraq be like in 5 years? Who really knows?
MRB,
I dig, and the sports analogy is a good one. I like watching football, but I don't get into the rah-rah aspect of it and I can't understand people who get frothing mad over nothing more than a game. Same thing with the stock market. To me, it's just legalized, morally accepted gambling. I realize there's probably more - a lot more - to it, but that's where it sticks in my mind.
And, like sports, perhaps the emphasis the media puts on it is a bit too great. But I'd reckon it's still more important than a friggin' kids game played by roided-out cro-magnons.
"Can someone explain the final comment on John Stuart Mill? I am fairly familiar with Mill's work, and other than trashing a famous liberal philosopher, it made no sense to me."
Buckley, being a devout Catholic (his first book was on the travesty of separating God from education at Yale University), means to damn utilitarianism, not to praise it.
The "nut" of utilitarianism is that societies act morally when they act to procure the greatest good for the greatest number. Of course, "greatest good" depends on which side of the benefit you are on, and "greatest number" depends on where you draw the line as to who, exactly, is in the "society."
And it stems, of course, from selfishness. We act to please ourselves, and when the greatest number are reaping the greatest benefit from such selfishness, well, then, "it's all good!"
You can see why that would displease a Catholic like Buckley.
So utilitarianism not only doesn't provide enough reason to make sacrifices (for the greater good, of course), it actually leads to the fictitious results attributed to the professor at the ficitious college. All those lazy (morally) people reaping benefits they aren't entitled to, and destroying democracy.
So democracy cannot be trusted. Because it spawns utilitarianism. Which is immoral (its harshest critics are Roman Catholic ethicists). And so, if I read Buckley conclusion rightly, what we need is a bit more fascism in the system.
Steady leadership in times of change, anyone?
(Really, is it only me, or does Buckley sound dangerously like some of the British ruling class who thought Hitler was doing a good thing introducing some discipline into a shattered Europe? "Democracy just doesn't work, much of the time"? Gosh, Bill, you're right. Those millions voting in Spain and protesting the war in Iraq around the world were just "focus groups." Democracy in action, bah! We need steady leadership, not selfish utilitarian scum!)
When you buy a stock in some company (any company) then suddenly you become interested in all things related to that company and you start to learn a lot about it and then about the industry it is in and then about how it relates to the world. Kind of like you didn't notice how many people rode motorcycles till you started riding one. It heightens your senses about "your" company. Pretty soon as you buy and sell; watch ones you own and have sold; you start to learn a lot about inconsequential perhaps unimportant crap but then also things that can improve your life and health, etc. It sure beats the crap out standing aroung bs-ing about politics which makes no sense at all. How some one could be convinced to vote/buy into this current group I will never fiqure out. Somebody that thinks that their tax level is more important than what the government spends is really on a ship lost at sea. Cut taxes and spend more-a real recipe for disaster.
For years, Buckley and the political right pased around a quote condemning the income tax that was attributed to Abraham Lincoln. This was kind of funny, since Lincoln pushed an income tax through Congress to fund the Union effort in the Civil War. The quote was ultimately found to have been made in 1932 by an obscure minister from Central Illinois who was elected as a Truman delegate to the 1948 Democratic convention. His quote was printed in a convention souvenir booklet, attributed to the minister, but printed under a picture of the Lincoln Memorial. Again, a testimony as to the thoroughness of conservative Republican research!
My grandfather belonged to the Bohemian Club, to which Buckley is also a member.
He asked him one time "If you're so goddamn smart why haven't you gotten your teeth fixed yet?"
Well, it's indicative of something.
Or his tongue fixed.
Anyone who ever watched Buckley debate on his old Firing Line TV show remembers him, when he was getting trounced in a dabate, would hit back by arguing that his opponent used some improper language. As he would wait to spring this change of subject ("That word's definition doesn't fit the context into which you put it in the sentence") he would silently trill his tongue. He was more fun to watch than Harpo Marx throwing a "gookie."
MRB! MRB!
We have this hypothesis that since the stock market is roughly an index of investor confidence in things, and since nobody really has or had any confidence in GWB, the "recession" (by which we mean the current depression) is not traceable so much to the tech bubbble or the Leaving of the Clinus but to Bush himself. We have a following idea that cons were willing to "sacrifice" to have such a known idiot in office to get certain things done, i.e., less importantly, tax cuts and more importantly, the market and environment wrecking dereg Bush had pushed through. Not that these people are so smart (Kenny Boy would kind of be among their bellwethers) but that was the plan anyway. So the economy really is Bush's fault, because rethug investors cannot find a basis for confidence in him like they always could for "pro-business president" Clinton (Clinton's adoration in the business press was well-documented and the reason Newt's Shrill Sideshow had to go after non-financial scandal).
WWWA™
You are a louse, Roger Smith.
Incidentally, Buckley hates being called a crypto-Nazi (which he is, often uinintentionally, viz upthread from no less a reasonable sort than RMJ). Voice of Freedom's Land, Gore Vidal, called him that and Buckley immediately went for the name calling.
("Crypto-Nazi" isn't really name-calling because it actually reflects a disprovable set of opinions; you choose to vote for Nixon, you do not choose love or skin color, let alone the vitriol. Like calling someone a Republican is unpleasant, but it can be true or untrue. Calling Gore a faggot is not really a matter of homosexuality as much as intense feelings regarding this. It's the same as the difference between the words "isolationist" and "nigger" or "flat tax advocate" and "kike".)
I remember a couple of old Outer Limits episodes where tumbleweeds and rocks were actually alien invaders. So this rural spaces that went for Bush....COULD BE ALIEN COLONIES VOTING FOR AN ADMINISTRATION THAT WILL ... I'm taking my medication now and will now leave my government home to engage in some random gun battle.
Mr. Buckley stumbles in the opening paragraph.
The failure of intelligence in the Iraq situation was not the lack of WMD but the lack of oil. We had no idea that their infrastructure was so demolished that there was no oil to grab.
Messrs. Bush, Wolfowitz and Cheney expected that it would be a "free" war - like the first one - with the Iraqi oil paying the bills. Now Cheney's old company has to import .5 billion barrells of oil into Iraq. And we wonder why gas prices are so high?
S'all very simple according to Buckley. Democrats are simply the WRONG kind of voters, and hence we shouldn't count them. We should count hectares of land involved, instead.
From : Alex Chaffee
Sent : Sunday, March 21, 2004 10:33 AM
To : editor@nationalreview.com, author@nationalreview.com
CC : alexchaffee@hotmail.com
Subject : Urban Myth in Buckley Article
The March 19 column by William F. Buckley contains the following paragraph:
--
Bush vs. Kerry? Looking back on Bush vs. Gore, Professor Joseph Olson of the Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, gives us a shrewd perspective. Adding up the counties in the U.S. won by the two candidates, it was Gore 677, Bush 2,434. Taking the population of those counties, it was 143 million for Bush, 127 million for Gore. In square miles of land won, Gore 580,000, Bush 2,427,000. The murder rate in Gore counties, 13.2 per 100,000 residents, contrasted with 2.1 in the Bush counties.
(http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/
buckley.asp)
--
These "facts" came from an email chain letter. Some of the numbers, as well as the attribution to Olson, are fictitious. This is easily verified at http://www.snopes.com/politics/q...uotes/
tyler.asp . How is it that a distinguished publication failed to perfom the most basic fact check before rushing these lies to print? How is it that a nationally recognized journalist felt it proper to repeat an email rumor, and to cite a source by name without calling him, or even Googling his name? The fifth link on the Google results page for "Professor Joseph Olson of the Hamline University School of Law" is the aforementioned Snopes debunking, which quotes professor Olson as saying "the "research" was attributed to him erroneously."
In today's column, Buckley writes, "This tells us how wrong it is to make facile generalities..." Indeed.
Sincerely,
Alex Chaffee
Try this permalink for the Buckley essay.
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