I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
first D'oh!
thanks
good catch
Just the facts. As many as he can assemble and digest by deadline. Period. That's all a newspaper reporter needs to give.
...we have grouped together an outstanding stable of Christian journalists, editors, and graphic artists...
I find this statement rather amusing -- I remember the term 'stable' being used usually when talking about prostitutes. I know it's gone further than that now in our language, but to see it used to describe 'Christian editors' etc., is (*gasp*) pretty funny to me!
"presuppositional reporting."
How much more need be said?
How much more of this can I stand?
Hey...anybody participating in March 20 Global Day of Action events? I have to head out in a few minutes for another event around here.
Under those definitions shouldn't all those rightwingnuts be barred from covering Bush --
The Chronicle is just lame. Randy Shilts who covered the aids crisis and had been a general assignment reporter was gay and wrote the definitive story of the beginnings of the aids crisis And the Band Played On...
The Chronicle has no ethics codes so everything is decided on the personal bias of the current administration. Their reporters donate to political campaigns and have social relationships with office holders that they cover.
Bronstein the editor according to the other paper the SF Examiner is engaged in an affair with the DA -a person the Chronicle endorsed. Not a word there.
I smoke I read I know hypocrisy when I see it.
Yea tho I walk thru the valley of death,I will fear no evil.
Bullshit I will.I'm scared to death of these hyprocrytes.
OT:
Now they are saying that the guy they cornered in Pakistan might be Uzbeki or Chechen.
Attack of the Christian Agenda
there is the urgent need to provide journalistic "salt" and "light" and "leaven" within the mainstream media as a manifestation of our Christian obligation to lovingly model justice to our society
However me thinks their "secret" agenda isn't to be left alone.
Contact the NPR omsbudman and complain.
Hidden Numbers
What the NYTimes won't tell you about its own poll.
By Robert Moran
There has been virtually no coverage of the presidential ballot tests in the CBS/New York Times poll conducted March 10-14, 2004 — an elegant display of media bias. With Bush ever-so-slightly ahead of Kerry in two and three way match ups, the New York Times put the story on A18. No surprise here.
But this poll is worth reviewing, despite its sponsors and limited coverage. In fact, there are several data nuggets within it that both camps are sure to be studying.
Here's the quick download:
1. The Kerry bandwagon lost a wheel.
As most professionals have pointed out, the media coronation that Kerry enjoyed after eliminating John Edwards wasn't going to last. True, the Bush campaign had to do the dirty work itself, but one way or the other Kerry's free ride was going to end.
With Kerry's head-to-head numbers falling back to a more reasonable range and with Bush holding his voting base, the CBS/New York Times survey showed reality in a 50-50 nation. The two candidates, when Nader is not included as a choice, are essentially tied — Bush 46 percent, Kerry 43 percent. These numbers are a far cry from data a few short weeks ago that showed Kerry with a modest lead.
While it is likely that the Bush television offensive is singularly responsible for this turnaround, it is interesting to note that Team Bush has not used any of their best hits against Kerry yet. In fact, they appear to be saving these for a later date and after they have established a general theme against their opponent.
2. Kerry is still mostly a blank slate, and the Bush campaign has a chalk warehouse.
Kerry's image in the CBS/New York Times poll was 28 percent favorable and 29 percent unfavorable. Professionals refer to this as a 1-to-1 image ratio, and it's not a sign of candidate strength. A stronger candidate in Kerry's position would have a 2-to-1 image ratio closer to 36 percent favorable and 18 percent unfavorable. The data from the poll suggests that Kerry will have a difficult time winning the race on his own qualities.
Moreover, recent polling in Pennsylvania mirrors this data. In a survey conducted March 9-15 in the Keystone state by Quinnipiac University, Kerry's image was 28 percent favorable and 27 percent unfavorable.
It's also worth noting that only 57 percent of American voters in this survey had an opinion of Kerry. This suggests that Kerry is still a blank slate to just under half the voting population. This is very good news for Team Bush and points to why many, including Dick Morris, have strongly and publicly encouraged the Bush campaign to do all they can to define Kerry now.
The president's team has the financial resources and a cash advantage on their opponent and all the evidence shows they're going to use it to drive up Kerry's negatives. The sooner the better.
The RNC at last check was sitting on roughly $30 million. One of
Isn't that just sweet? An Organized fundie propaganda machine.
Does anyone need any more proof that these wackos are doing their best to infiltrate and co-opt every segment of american society?
In Houston there's a school called Tourneau University, where they offer an MBA program where one can study business principles from a "christian perspective". Same type of nonsense.
Of course, the point isn't that I think all journalists need to be secular. But, this is an organization dedicated to training journalists to push a particular conservative Christian agenda from within mainstream news organizations, and many of their people are covering religion and social issues in top organizations.
They've been getting the money for all this (and it ain't cheap) from average Christians who give tithes and offerings and a certian portion is secretly directed like this. And now all our money through taxes for governmental "faith-based" pork, folks.
Your taxes are being used to fund your eventual enslavement in a future Theocracy. Isn't organized religion grand? And boy, they sure are organized.
Contact the NPR omsbudman and complain.
shoelessjoemccarthy
better yes, print out the information about Haggerty and mail it to the President of your local PBS affiliate. The volunteers who run these stations have no idea how much anger there is out here and for sure the professioanl flak catcher ain't gonna tell them
Republicans and democrats are what the public thinks are the majority.I submit that the christians are the majority.And with that being the case it makes for a very tough battle to get out of this slide toward the dark ages and the myths that enslaved all of humanity.
With most poeple being "christians" and believers of faith we have a case of MOB rules.When the mob rules the people lose.
The people are losing....and badly.
Barbara Bradley Hagerty reported on the whole "gay bishop" controversy...
she had a rather strange melt down during a live report from the Anglican conference where Gene Robinson was confirmed (is that his name? I know the meeting is called something else, too, but can't remember now) She kept saying, "I'm looking for my notes," and would fall silent for seconds at a time. It was realy weird... somebody should look into that.
"Of course, the point isn't that I think all journalists need to be secular"
Indeed!
They don't need to be secular. They need to be atheist.
PRESUPPOSITIONAL REPORTING!!!!!!!!
For Christs sake.
"...journalistic "salt" and "light" and "leaven"..."
Oh Oh.
Religion and journalism have no business being in bed together. You got your faith and it gets you through the day, fine, but keep it out of the newspaper. When the Powers That Be try to peddle disinformation, journalists are supposed to be the ones saying "Hey...that's horseshit." Brothers and sisters, there is no greater marriage between horseshit and power than in organized religion.
And does anyone else think it's sorta funny that damn near every newspaper in the country has some sort of religious section? Usually called "faith and values," like the two were completely interchangable and never to be sundered. Funny, I never see much in there about, say, Wiccans, and the only time I've ever seen much on Islam is when we're bombing the shit out of some Arabic country. And despite any pretenses of journalistic integrity, you'd be hard-pressed to find much positive news on atheist or secular humanist groups in your average rag.
I get sooo tired of Christians complaining they're "oppressed" in America.
...help turn out journalists capable of presuppositional reporting.
From Dictionary.com:
pre·sup·pose ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prs-pz)
tr.v. pre·sup·posed, pre·sup·pos·ing, pre·sup·pos·es
To believe or suppose in advance.
To require or involve necessarily as an antecedent condition. See Synonyms at presume [or prejudge?]
Yup, we don't have enough journalists today who "believe or suppose" about issues their reporting on "in advance".
Good thing this institution is dedicated to crank out more of them.
Splendid post. We must keep up the pressure on Andy, Putz and their likes with regards to their double standard.
He looks like he is having so much fun. No little people in his way or anything, with clear slopes all the way to the $8 million mansion.
Go here and donate to Bush/Cheney 2004, and help give John Kerry four years of vacation time.
Jeebus - this christian dominionism wave is really pervasive. I knew it was dangerous, but I didn't realize how far their tentacles stretched already. The American Taliban has snuck into everything - we have got to go to war with the forces of ignorance here, and do it now. We're going to lose this country and all its advances and everything it stands for it these people win. Holy shit - this is just nuts.
Presuppositional: Is that where you
apply the jelly right before inserting the suppository?
We in the gay community have endured years of this from these whackjobs below the radar screen of most Americans and now secular straights and atheists and, basically, anyone who shares the Founding Father's vision of what America should be will have to endure it. And it ain't pretty folks. They will be all over you relentlessly forever until you feel like you're going to lose your ever-loving mind.
Also listed on the faculty is Marvin Olasky:
http://www.worldji.com/faculty.a...p?
educator_id=1
Who is basically the person most responsible for George W. Bush's domestic policy worldview (circa 2000, anyway).
See why I keep saying I want out before I really do go crazy?
Damn, I feel like Francis Farmer and I'm sick of feeling like this.
All journalists don't need to be secular. That's ridiculous. Journalists are hired by for-profit corporations. If you don't like what their printing...don't buy their papers...don't listen to their programs.
I agree, however, that since NPR receives some government support that there should be some guidelines for "news" to avoid religious bias...but why do you folks have such high expectations for "news" that comes from a corporation?
What we really need in America is someone like Gates, Soros, or Buffett (he's a little to close to the WaPo, I think) to one-time endow a foundation that would operate without a profit motive as a nearly independent news organization like the BBC.
I have no problem with christians, jews, buddhists, muslims, or atheists or gays or whatever in the media. But when they fire gay activists, or don't let gay activists report on gay issues, it is absolute hypocrisy to allow people involved in an organization dedicated to "Christianizing" the media, report on religious issues. It's a no brainer.
Bush=the New Cromwell
If Christians genuinely feel oppressed, I would like them to take a bet with me. I bet my entire life savings that a confirmed vocal atheist will not become president within the next 5 election cycles. I will bet everything I own. Any "abused christians" willing to take that bet?
The funny part is, some of our presidents in this past century probably were atheists. They had to pretend to have faith in christ to be politically viable. That is a good indication of how "truly oppressed" Christians are in the U.S.
Jeebus - this christian dominionism wave is really pervasive. I knew it was dangerous, but I didn't realize how far their tentacles stretched already. The American Taliban has snuck into everything - we have got to go to war with the forces of ignorance here, and do it now. We're going to lose this country and all its advances and everything it stands for it these people win. Holy shit - this is just nuts.
And you guys thought I was loony when I would rant on and on about the evil influence of these wackadoos.
Honestly, I think that a religious civil war is coming in this country.
Nixon was supposed to be a Quaker. He wasn't anything like any of the "Friends" I know. How could Nixon be a hawk?
a manifestation of our Christian obligation to lovingly model justice to our society
Why they seem to think this isn't being done by decent journalists simply conducting themselves as such and reporting fairly, which I personally consider to be the highest form of using your talents for good, is a mystery to me.
It's like the only behavior that can be considered Christian is talking about Jesus, pushing the agenda of a particular church, or denigrating someone else based on insufficient religiosity. Everything else is just "secular."
Y'know what? I hope all journalists look at their jobs as vocations. I hope they all put whatever faith they hold into every ounce of their work, which should be to inform the public in reporting, advocate social justice and fairness in editorials, and entertain in sports and "lifestyle" coverage. But that doesn't mean citing Bible (or Koranic, for that matter) verses in their stories.
If you define Christian as being "like Christ" rather than "adhering to a particular belief system," one could say the Boston Globe reporters who covered the church sex scandal committed a very "christian" act, exposing wrongdoing and suggesting ways to right it. The reporters dying in Iraq right now to tell people what is going on are conducting themselves in the "christian" manner, risking their own lives for the benefit of others. Why isn't that enough for these people? Why aren't they lauding this courage and toil? Huh? I really want to know.
A.
Another question for the inquiring mind, who funds the 'World Journalism Institute'?
WJI has the right kind of professional and academic support network established for a venture of this kind.
Boy, wouldn't you like to know exactly what that support network is?
four legs good - I don't remember ever saying you were loony, but if I did, I apologize, because you were right. This kind of takes my breath away - it's so much worse that I realized. Fucking fundamentalist zombie brain eaters - this is too much.
The purpose of this organization is to place moles into news gathering organizations and then push the Institute's agenda. Period.
Fuck, I'm so pissed off. I'm gonna go give turkee to the Committee to Protect, see if that doesn't calm me down. Assholes.
http://www.cpj.org (I know, I know, I'm gonna stop flogging this soon.)
Making matters worse, the radio reporters here in Chicago are covering the anti-war protesters exclusively by talking to police about how "polite" they're being to the "crowd." Sure, sure, don't interview anyone in the crowd about why they're there, just talk about the "mob" and how police are keeping them "under control."
FUCKERS.
A.
This is a serious question. Why do you think these journalists that work for private corporations have any obligation to you, the reader, to report in an unbiased, secular, tone?
Yeah, if they all went to J-School, they were probably taught something about journalistic ethics, but doesn't that all get tossed out the window, when they accept a job with a corporation with only one motive, profits?
four legs good,
If it does, it'll come like it came in the '80s, under the guise of "moral responsibility" and with shouts of "what about the children". If Bush gets "re-elected", you're gonna see a moral Crusade - and that capital C is not a typo - that'll make Tipper Gore and her little bunch of blue-nosed busybodies look like sorrority girls at quarter beer night.
Remember, we live ina country where two-faced yay-hoos like Pat Robertson and Jerry Foulwell are taken seriously by the "respectable media," which considers guys like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn "too far from the mainstream". What's really sad, the perpetually scared shitless American public will roll right over for it.
Ya know, I had a fundamentalist Christian - one of those fire-and-brimstone dudes that infest college campuses during lunchtime - tell me I was bound for the Lake of Fire because I have long hair. There's a verse somewhere, but it escapes my rememberin' at the moment. Creationism is seriously considered by schools outside the Bible Belt and it's considered the utmost in tackiness to point out that, hey, just cause ya go to church doesn't mean you're a good person. No questions how a good, God-fearing man like Bush The Less could so willfully cause the death of so many people, now, do they?
without them we will have intellectual degradation?
wow, their viewpoint is truely warped!!!
OT:
Speaking of Chicago. I heard that Da' Mayor called on the Democrats to not release the private details of the Jack/Jeri Ryan divorce that they apparently have obtained.
Good call Daley. Obama should be able to beat Ryan without the Democrats having to stoop to that level. And even if he doesn't, in the long run, avoiding campaigns based on personal attacks will be great for getting more people involved in the process.
You subalterns of Piso, a needy train,
with baggage handy and easily carried,
my excellent Veranius and my Fabullus,
how are you? Have you borne cold and hunger
with that wind-bag long enough?
Do your account books show any gain, however small,
entered on the wrong side, as mine do? Why, after following
in my praetor's train I put down on the credit side
"O Memmius, you slowly clintonized me well and for a long time
on my back with that entire rod of yours."
But, as far as I see, you were in a similar
situation: you were stuffed with just as big a penis.
So much for running after powerful friends!
But may the gods and goddesses bring many curses upon you,
you blots on the names of Romulus and Remus.
When we as a people are bombarded by religious undertones in everything we do,how is it that people who are on the edge and of little knowledge or belief are supposed to fight of the challenge comming from the RR?As the good reverend form above on this post put it on another thread.We SHOULD outlaw children from being brainwashed with catholic or any religious teachings untill they are old enough to come to grips with this complicated issue with a somewhat adult mind.
I am lucky in that I was left to my own conclusions while growing up.I explored both sides of the issue and made up my own mind what I believed.Unfortuantly most children dont have this option and are brainwashed from day one.This sadistic ritual of batism is so wrong and so ingrained tht none dare to absolve humanity of it.
What a sorry sorry world we live in that leaves people with no choice but to get along you have to go along.
And does anyone else think it's sorta funny that damn near every newspaper in the country has some sort of religious section?
not at all, in fact they should expand such sections
religion is like politics, business, entertainment, science, or any other topic, very important and should be covered
like anything else, they just need to be truthful
They have a right to be reporters just like atheists, muslims, capitalists, socialists, optomists, nihlists, etc.
I don't understand why you would be opposed to them having a say. Its not as if they have an influence on the news that is disproportionate to their percentage of society as a whole.
I don't agree with them, but I'm not bothered by them either.
Anon: of course da mayor has to divorce himself from...the divorce of Jack and Jeri Ryan. That's because it may blow open like a rotten whale carcass and who wants that splattering on them? I think the Obama people are not touching this one with a ten foot pole; they know that it will always be there and that there are plenty of friendly journalists who are willing to tell the voters all about it.
Ya know, the good Doctor Hunter S. Thompson has often argued that true objectivity in journalism is a nice concept, but it's by and large bunk. I spent several years in the straight journalism field before moving into music journalism, and I can tell you there's all kinds of bias going on. You don't offend the big advertisers. You don't offend the local bigwigs, especially if you're in a small town. You don't print things the community might find objective. I've got all sorts of stories that I'll provide upon request, but I'm sure my fellow brothers and sisters in the field can one-up me.
Hell, even the basic layout of a page shows some bias. Here in Athens - home of the University Of Georgia - if it involves football, it gets top billing. Back last summer there was a big dust-up between the president and Vince Dooley, beloved Dawg coach and athletic director. That got the top spot more often than anything involving the war or Bush shennanigans in the local rag. Drove me up the fucking wall, day in and day out.
It's one of the reasons I got out of pure journalism and embraced the gonzo ethic of writing about whatever I damn well pleased and saying just what I damn well pleased. I'm way too opinionated, pissed off and blunt to do the job like it's supposed to be done.
And, for the record, music journalism is little more than outsourced public relations for the record labels. Most music critics don't have enough intelligence to tie their shoes, much less dig through the deluge the label's PR folks throw at you. Got sick of that shit, too...and I got sick of being "out of it" cause I thought Guided By Voices were overrated. But that's neither here nor there.
This song fits the mood.
Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away;
Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.
You better watch out,
There may be dogs about
I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen
Things are not what they seem.
What do you get for pretending the danger's not real.
Meek and obedient you follow the leader
Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.
What a surprise!
A look of terminal shock in your eyes.
Now things are really what they seem.
No, this is no bad dream.
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives He releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication
Master the art of karate,
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.
Bleating and babbling I fell on his neck with a scream.
Wave upon wave of demented avengers
March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
Have you heard the news?
The dogs are dead!
You better stay home
And do as you're told.
Get out of the road if you want to grow old.
Pink Floyd---Sheep
56k,
Well, if it were truthful, there'd be a big ol' disclaimer that said "Of course, no one can prove a damn word of this is true."
derek g,
No one says Christians - of any stripe - can't be journalists. It's just a wee bit disturbing when there's an obviously well-funded group that's designed to pump out reporters who let their faith color what they report. Not just color it either, really; they're championing writing from a solely Christian perspective. That's fine if the publication is a Christian magazine (or Jewish/Muslim/whathaveyou), but it shouldn't be in the mass media. That's supposed to be "objective". However, like I said objectivity's a nice idea but a bitch to truly execute.
Well agreed are the abominable sodomites,
the fellators, Mamurra and Caesar;
no wonder either. Like stains,
one from the city and one from Formiae,
are deeply impressed on each, and will never be washed out.
Diseased alike, very twins,
both on one sofa, dilettante writers both,
one as greedy in adultery as the other,
the rivals who share young girls.
Well agreed are the abominable sodomites.
smallfish,
I don't think this WJI has anything to do with Roman Catholics. Sounds like an Evangelical thing.
What do you mean about "brainwashing"? You don't think parents should expose their own children to their religious views? You don't think parents should be able to choose to send their children to parochial schools?
I don't like it that the WaPo doesn't have a warning under it's banner about this particular affiliation of its reporter David Cho, but I don't read the WaPo for other reasons, anyway. I can't demand anything of the WaPo, because I am not a shareholder and I'm not even a customer. And what other people choose to read, is entirely up to them.
O, Cato, what an absurdly funny thing,
worthy for you to hear and laugh at!
Laugh, as much as you love Catullus, Cato.
The thing is too absurd and funny.
I just found a young boy havnig sex with a girl:
May it please Diona, I attacked him
with my rigid thing, using it as a spear.
Although Rev. Backslider didn't quite get around to it, one thing the J-schools do not teach you (as a current journalist and J-school grad) is to look at the motives of whom you work for.
Yeah sure, you can learn to be as objective as possible, but when you're getting led down the primrose path by your supervisors... well, it's a hard road.
We have a guy at our paper, and he's an assistant editor, and he's known to most of the reporters as "Dr. God" because he's consistenly pushing a list of Catholic events on reporters to cover, and has refused to edit or place events involving other faiths or things he finds offensive (anti-war protest, gay rights protest). He's ridiculous, and has been under intense scrutiny from above recently, but the fact that he could get away with such attitudes for such a long time speaks to what a mess the whole system is.
There should be a J-School class dealing with how to deal with corporate pressure and editors with axes to grind. Perfect world.
"What do you mean about "brainwashing"? You don't think parents should expose their own children to their religious views? You don't think parents should be able to choose to send their children to parochial schools?"
As a matter of fact I dont think catholic or parochial schools are good for anybody.I think they really ought to be done away with.Teachin religion should be for adult minds only.When we pervert the young mind with the poison of the bible we fail to get enlightened thought from anyone.All we get is hatred and racism.And all this starts from the catholic teaching of youngsters.
TK,
Yeah, the J-Schools (University Of Florida, Class of '97) don't really do a whole lot to get you ready for the "real world". I'm glad I had a good deal of experience before I went. I know a lot of kids who got a serious kick in the balls when they went out to right the wrongs and tip at windmills.
I had exactly two useful classes at UF - computer-assisted reporting and research. The rest was buncombe about inverted pyramids and nutgraphs. If anything, what I learned hurt my writing style, and it took at least two years to get back to where I was actually writing interesting stuff.
To this group we have added nationally known Christian theologians and apologists.
We're really, really sorry that there are gays in this country...we're also sorry because you have to deal with the horrible liberal media...we're sorry your children regularly see nipples on primetime tv...we're sorry for the poor president who just looks so darn tired all the time, fighting that evil kerry...we're sorry that we can't kill paul krugman (trust me, we've tried!)...we're sorry that we only managed to make the NYTimes fire one disgusting AIDS-patient-aiding homosexual...
What the hell is a professional apologist anyway??
All we get is hatred and racism.And all this starts from the catholic teaching of youngsters.
--smallfish
Bullcrap. You must know very few people brought up in a Roman Catholic houshold. There is nothing in that kind of environment that has anything to do with hatred or racism. You probably support a Presidential candidate that was brought up Catholic. I don't think your suggesting that Kerry, Kucinich, or Carol Moseley-Braun were raised to be hateful or racist, are you?
four legs good - I don't remember ever saying you were loony, but if I did, I apologize, because you were right.
You didn't. I just figured everyone thought so since they pretty much ignored my arguments. Anyhoo, no apologies necessary, I'm just glad everyone is starting to become aware of the menace.
Listen, these people don't just think we're wrong- they think we're going to burn forever in hell.
Reverend Backslider, you're going to hell for your hair, I got told I was going to burn in hell in a boiling lake of fire "for all eternity" at 17 for drinking a beer at a party.
Well, now that I got all that off my chest, I'm going to further cement my place in hell by going out and eating shrimp for lunch.
RB,
I got so sick of fighting the writing system that I've moved into design and editing, so now I have say where things go. It makes me a lot happier, and I write what I like on the side - a happy medium. I also like the evil uses of Photoshop. 
To Anon and smallfish, I don't think it's wrong to teach kids religion. My girlfriend grew up in a strong Catholic home and she rejected it pretty much all of it by 16.
The issue here, though, is journalism. If you're an editor and you need to hire a music reviewer, you don't hire the one who walks in the door and the first thing he says is, "The only kind of music is rock." Because, obviously, rock isn't the only kind of music. Same with a Christian fundie group reporting on religious events, eh?
And what the hell is christian perspective graphic design? I mean WTF???
That's just goofy.
Arrghhh!
I refuse to call these people Christians anymore. They have nothing in common with Christ.
I think we all know the difference between Muslims and "Islamists." I propose a similar distinction between mainstream Christians and these end-times wingnuts. But what? Christists? Christlicans? Christocrats? Biblicans? (in which case I will gladly change my username!)
I will mull this over in church tomorrow.
I saw this coming back in '95, when NPR started reporting regularly on the religious beat. This was at the same time that its new head nabob was outed as a fundy. I stopped contributing then and there. They're here, they're everywhere, they're the American ideological version of fascism. Be prepared for the onslaught if Bush retains power. If he does, I'm not gonna wait around, I'm leavin' for Europe.
Be prepared for the onslaught if Bush retains power. If he does, I'm not gonna wait around, I'm leavin' for Europe.
Me too. With my hostility to organized religion and my complete inability to deal with authoritarianism, I'd be a gonner. 
Fuck that!
TK,
Unless of course the magazine the editor is working for is owned by a corporation that owns a rock music label. In which case, that reporter is a perfect fit. He will aggressively advance the agenda of his paymasters. Same thing with newspapers, I'm afraid to say.
Because of how screwed-up a concept the "corporation" is, there is very little hope that reporters working for them will ever be free to report unbiased stories.I think the best thing to do is to look elsewhere for the truth.
four legs good,
Trust me, my friend, I'm going to hell for a lot more reasons than just my rather copious mane. There's a certain interlude with a preacher's daughter at her daddy's church that sticks out rather pleasently in my mind, for one...
four legs good - Well, when I was a kid my best friend was from a Church of Christ family. One Saturday, the doorbell rang. It was my best friend. She said: "My mommy sent me down here to tell you that your parents are going to hell because they drink and smoke and dance your mother wears shorts. "
So I've been going to hell a lot longer than some around here. I must have been around 7, 8 when that happened. Despite her parents and all their hard work trying to break up our friendship, she and I got over that and remained friends until Junior High, when I discovered boys, and that was the end of that - the end of childhood, actually.
But I know what these people are all about, too - I grew up with them and I've been around them all my life. I have always considered them a minority - I just am appalled at the inroads they've made. This administration has empowered them and they've come out of the woodwork. It seems they've been gnawing at the woodwork for far longer and their efforts have been more organized than I gave them credit for. This is too weird, really.
Just when I think this Right Wing is just about finished taking over every aspect of the United States, I read about the World Journalism Institute.
1. I thought a majority of journalists were already part of this cabal to take over journalism. Sure seems that way. I mean, when you read the mainstream tripe masquerading as journalism, anybody would figure that.
2. NPR has been on that right-wing team for several years now. I NEVER count on them for any kind of unbiased news. Period.
3. The sick coverage by print news-writers (can't call these turkeys Journalists) of Iraq, of Palestine-Israel, of Haiti, of Venezuela, of Argentina, of Mexico, of Chile, of El Salvador, of Colombia, of Panama, of France and Germany, of the Balkans, of Iran, of the Koreas, of China.........need I add more ... is enough to gag a maggot.
4. TV is ridiculous -- both nationally and locally -- in the inability to say what's new without propagandizing on behalf of the Bushista government.
5. By the way, the Bush political ads are so hilarious I end up laughing my ass off. Only the most ignorant persons could possibly believe the junk they are putting out.
Finally, more and more people can see through this crap. They cannot make any claim on Truth or Religion or Law or Morality or Ethics. Why? They know not the definition of these things. Inn November we will celebrate at being out from under the Heel of Oppressive Rule in the United States. As a matter of fact, MOST of the WORLD will REJOICE!
This is not about Capitalism vs. Socialism, or Communism. This is not about Christians vs. Muslims or Jews. This is about the Use and Abuse of Power. This is about Greed. This is about the Poverty of Ideas in a Strangelovian group attempting to run the world. All the crap they put out about what is IS NOT. Please disregard. They really don't know the score.
They think so little of We the People and of the average Military Men and Women, they'd write us all off in a hot second. We are absolutely expendable in their grand scheme. So, Let Them Eat Cake. Their greed and ignorance will do them in!
Tena, yep, that's been what I've been alarmed about- the inroads they've made and the influence they've gained.
Where's the rapture when you need it?
There's a certain interlude with a preacher's daughter at her daddy's church that sticks out rather pleasently in my mind, for one..
Every preacher's kid tells a version of that story.
I was in seminary when my daughter was but a wee lass. Scariest stuff I heard there was from the "PK's," where and how they lost their virginity. I now make sure I avoid churches with balconies, at least until she's grown and off to college (it's too late to worry by then....)
four legs good - Re: the Rapture: Yep, I can't wait for the free clothes. (apologies to Jon Stewart)
But just to clarify...Don't lump the Catholics in with these folks. Probably about half of them are of the "cafeteria" (I think the term is a complement) variety that seem to be perfectly allied with many, if not all Progressive causes.
I think Christian graphic design produces crap like this!
Or this!
Afterall, Spain is 96% Catholic. They were certainly able to see through the b.s.
"Kerry, Kucinich, or Carol Moseley-Braun were raised to be hateful or racist, are you?"
I have no idea what they are really about.DO you?All I know is ABB baby.When bush is gone I'll feel a little better but you have to know he wont do anything about this invasion of the RR into our schools and radios and newspapers.
Only when religion is taken out of schools will this invasion have an end.I'm sorry if I have offended anyone but this is the simple truth.
All through history we have factual evidence of religion being the repressor of people and it continues to this day.The underlying common denominator?Religion in shooling.
My favorite argument with christians:
Typical christian: "You don't believe in God?"
MYOB: "No. I'm a deist. I don't believe in your interpretation."
Typical Christian: "So you don't believe in God?"
MYOB: " No. I said I don't believe in your interpretation."
Typical Christian: "How is that any different than saying you don't believe in God."
MYOB: "For one thing, you can't prove your God exists. It's only the accepted version because, like shit, it floated to the top."
Typical Christian: "Well then who created the world?"
MYOB: "I don't know. That is yet to be discovered. a few hundred years ago the human race thought the world is flat. This past century people never knew about the existence of atoms. Who knows what we'll discover tomorrow."
Typical Christian: "But who do you think created the universe."
MYOB: "Prove your God exists and I might consider your God to have done it. But you gotta prove God exists first."
Typical Christian: (Wishes MYOB were dead) "But if it wasn't God then who was it?"
MYOB: "You can't prove your God exists, yet you want your God to be the default answer to your own question?"
It goes on and one and on...
MYOB'
.
Re:that last link - "Jeebus is gonna clean your clock!"
*snerk*
A letter sent to the local NPR station. Not that it will do any good, as I'm not a Christian. (I used to be before I came to the states; a decade of listening to the morons has ruined all the good bits of the religion for me, and I want nothing to do with any sort of Taliban whatsoever. This is one of those nonnegotiable things for me, you know, live free or die, even if it IS the motto of New Hampshire.)
It's a fun exercize to listen to the NPR and spot the subtle distortions. They're regarded as liberal because the distortions are subtle, whereas elsewhere the distortions are obvious.
Kafka comes to mind, a bit.
"Damn the Pharisees. They are as dogs in a manger. They don't eat, neither do they let the cows eat." JC
Does anyone here really think these fundamentalist freaks represent what Jesus (probably) really taught?
"Anyone who drinks from my mouth, I will become him and he shall become me." JC
I'm a pantheist, and I can buy these words.
I think I hate religion.
The underlying common denominator?Religion in shooling.
--smallfish
I think you're mistaking correlation for causation.
BTW, Wesley Clark is a Roman Catholic, too.
Not to mention all of the Kennedys
"I think you're mistaking correlation for causation."
Cause and effect is more like it.
he wont do anything about this invasion of the RR into our schools and radios and newspapers.
But what can anyone do, if the schools, radios, and newspapers are all privately owned?
Biblio, that was fucking hilarious. I'm tempted to photoshop the first one so that jesus is looking down at GW and Iraq and weeping.
Just to make some fundie's head explode.
If you can claim that the roman catholic churc is better than the southen baptist intervention into american society I think you've gone into the beds of the RR.Roman catholics are responsible for the middle ages of darkness AND the crusades.And yet you rally to their side saying its a good thing we have them,they will protect us from the rabid baptists.I give no false pretenses to that effect,I call em like I see em.And I see hyprocracy from all sides in this affair.
John Fund? A Christian? Excuse me while I have some cognitive dissonance over that.
smallfish,
blaming modern day Roman Catholics in the United States for the inquistion and the crusades is akin to the fundies who blame the Jews for the crucifiction. It's an idiotic statement.
I think you could try to be a little more tolerant. As I've said, I would estimate that about half of America's Roman Catholics are "cafeteria Catholics", which in my opinion is a good thing. Some of the Progressive movement's greatest number of allies are Roman Catholics.
TK,
I told every editor I had that while I could write features on anything, I couldn't review certain types of music (rap, jazz, mainstream pop, gospel, techno, etc.). I let 'em know where I stood, and my particular bag was rock and country music history. Course, I got sick of it and had to quit before I got to the point where I hated writing. My mother still sends me job notices from papers back home who're looking for writers/editors/whatnot. I couldn't go back into a newsroom to save my life, and I'm much more content to write screeds on cryptozoology, serial killers, "bad popes", Southern sociology and other important matters of our time. Now, if I could just get published...
MYOB,
I've had similar convorsations, but mine come from the point of an agnostic fascinated with quantum mechanincs and superstring theory. Blows a fundie's mind when I start going off on 11 possible dimensions and uncertainty principles. And generally, given my interest in Christian political history, I know the history of their religion better than they do. And, man, you should see the looks on their faces when I bring up other "crucified saviors" like Krishna and Mithras.
Here's another nice one!
What was hypocritical about the actual people of Spain and France (two very Catholic countries) that were overwhelmingly opposed to the Iraq War?
To add to my last post, I read somewhere that a prominant dominionist christian talk about how the christians should respond to the accusation that there are no facts to prove God exists let alone their version of God.
His response is very much like how republicans this administration respond to facts tossed at them regarding Iraq and other foreign or domestic policies.
They change the subject, hope it goes away, and call their doners who also happen to own the news media outlets telling them not to cover any stories involving the person(s) making the argument. Keep their views out of the public and the public will be kept ignorant.
Of course his last method was to say that the Devil removed all the proof, and those who promote the absence of facts are just pawns of satan who should be investigated whether they might be more than just pawns, but willing conspirators.
MYOB'
.
Yeah, that Catholic Inquisition was sure progressive. Kind of like the Catholic take on a woman's right to choose.
biblio - O my gods and little fishes, that Jesus in boxing trunks was too fucking much. Really. ROFLMAO - Christian porn.
Some while upthread:
We SHOULD outlaw children from being brainwashed with catholic or any religious teachings untill they are old enough to come to grips with this complicated issue with a somewhat adult mind.
I am lucky in that I was left to my own conclusions while growing up.I explored both sides of the issue and made up my own mind what I believed.Unfortuantly most children dont have this option and are brainwashed from day one.This sadistic ritual of ba[p]tism is so wrong and so ingrained tht none dare to absolve humanity of it.
You want our Christians should do like the Early Christians and get baptized only on their deathbeds? This was supposed to wipe out sins committed in life, and was very convenient for people like the Emperor Constantine. Late baptism will enable Christian Hypocrites (tm) to behave even more shamelessly than they do now.
Tena,
Again, blaming modern day Roman Catholics living in the United States for the Inquistion is idiotic.
I am not defending the official positions of the Pope, or the Roman Catholic Church. I am defending individual Roman Catholics, who are usually Progressive and never proselytize.
To blame Catholics for the Church Hierarchy is like blaming *ourselves* for the crap Bush pulls.
Catholics are Christians...but they are NOTHING like Southern Baptists or other Evangelicals.
"cafeteria Catholics"
AHH yes those that allow those innocent priests to molest evil little children.Those are the ones that the rabid baptists are after too.When the baptists have converted those"Cafeteria Catholics" it will be over and they will then have a true majority.
Why is it you feel the need to defend the worst disease on earth:religion?This is what has gotten us to war in Afghanistan.It's what we fight the AQ about.It's in essence what the cold war was about.Hitler was about it too.When are we to realize that it is religion we are at war with and not each other.
You can go and make the case that religion has given us good things,but I fail to see the good of any of it when billions have died in the name of "their god".
"I think you could try to be a little more tolerant"
I wish that religions could pratice this too.Its too bad I dont have the resources to be tolerant.When the majority of the worlds religions want me to be of their faith I have no ability to defend myself other than to pratice intolerance.
sara,
*Laugh* Like early baptism stops some of 'em.
While on his deathbed, an acquaintence was rather shocked to find W.C. Fields thumbing through a Bible. When asked why such a misanthropic drunk would read the Good Book, Fields replied, "I'm looking for loopholes."
Why is it you feel the need to defend the worst disease on earth:religion?
I am not defending religion. I am defending an individual's right to associate and worship how they choose. And I am also trying to make you understand that some of the Progressive movement's most numerous members consider themselves to be Roman Catholics.
An aside concerning non-believers having "tolerence" for religious beliefs: in a word, why? Why should I be tolerent of any school of thought that feels I will be punished with eternal torture because I don't believe what its adherents believe?
I mean, I respect one's right to believe. Whatever gets you through the day is fine with me. And if it ever comes down to it and a government tries to deny you those beliefs, I will be on your side fighting for your right. But respect those beliefs? Hardly. It's all horsefeathers and fairy tales to me.
When the majority of the worlds religions want me to be of their faith I have no ability to defend myself other than to pratice intolerance.
Has a Catholic ever tried to convert you? I find this very unlikely. They just don't proselytize.
"
I am not defending religion. I am defending an individual's right to associate and worship how they choose. And I am also trying to make you understand that some of the Progressive movement's most numerous members consider themselves to be Roman Catholics"
Point taken,I dont mean to critise you in paticular or to demean your points.I apologize.
That being said;Your last point just reinforces my whole tirade.The whole country is leaning toward the RR in the aspect of getting us to our"roots" in religion.This is where I depart from the typical political system.I really dont like the democratic or republican parties for this very reason.They both have too many religious influences.Granted,the democratic catholics may be a little looser than the right but the differences are so small as to be insignificant.
I fear the day that the catholics cave to the right,and that day is not far.
I think every individual should have the right to believe and worship and associate with and what he will - no problems there. But I cannot say that one christian sect is somehow less objectionable than another at this point. There was a time when I would have argued otherwise. Not any more. I'm sick of what I've seen religion do to this country and to the world.
Catholics may not proselytize any longer, (I have no idea if they do or not,) but they sure sent the missionaries out all over the world in their day and they weren't using a lot of kindness to convert the "savages." Sorry, I can't give a wink to one bunch of christians over another anymore. I'm just as fed up with all other organized religions as I am with christianity, for what it's worth.
Tena,
Then it sounds like you're with Smallfish on the issue of there not being much difference in the two political parties. John Kerry is a practicing Roman Catholic, afterall.
"
Has a Catholic ever tried to convert you? I find this very unlikely. They just don't proselytize."
As a matter of fact they do it every chance they get.I,luckily have the moral fortitude to defend myself of their influxes.But not all of the people do.
As fas a proselytize;UMM i do believe your wrong there.In Iraq right now we have people dying because this is just what they're doing.A bible in one hand and a glass of water in the other telling the poor unwashed masses of the Iraqi people get jesus,get water.This is flat out wrong.It not just happening in Iraq it happens all over the world.Just because they have stopped doing it here on your street does not mean it's not being done.
Then it sounds like you're with Smallfish on the issue of there not being much difference in the two political parties. John Kerry is a practicing Roman Catholic, afterall.
It's just amazing how we got from the topic of this thread to this statement by anonymous.
*shakes head in disgust*
And what the hell is christian perspective graphic design? I mean WTF???
This?
Or maybe it's retouching photos, like pixellating away tubgirl's nasty bits.
smallfish,
Ok, so now we've identified the source of our inability to find common ground, here. It is your ignorance. The bible thumpers who've gone off to Iraq with "a bible in one hand and a glass of water in the other..." are Southern Baptists, NOT Roman Catholics. It is more likely that if there are any American Catholics in Iraq right now, it may be because some Catholics did go over there before the war to act as "human shields", to prevent the war.
I also find it VERY, VERY, unlikely a Roman Catholic has ever tried to convert you or even approached you at random to discuss religion or invite you to a "bible study". The folks on College campuses that do this sort of thing are usually some protestant denomination...Church of Christ, Baptist.
"Or maybe it's retouching photos, like pixellating away tubgirl's nasty bits."
Man,that was disgusting!
Oh for chrissakes - I am not supporting Big John based on his religion or lack of it - the man has made it clear that he believes in the separation of church and state. That's what I care about. That's all the hell I am asking from a president vis-a-vis religion.
Kudos to atrios for bringing this to light. This is some really weird shit.
Reverend Backslider
You and four legs good are both loons bound for the lake of fire!
I've just got a question for you since your talking quantum stuff and all.
By the laws of thermodynamics, if the temperature of the lake of fire exists at the burning point of sulfur, and you add 1 billion humans whose average body temperature was 37 degrees celsius, what element in liquid form capable of burning and how much would the lake of fire have to contain to maintain a consistant temperature?
Next question dealing with mechanics and civil engineering:
To contain the mass of both lake and inhabitants, how large a container would be required to maintain the above quantity as well as sustain an increase in both sinful humans and the burning mass needed to compensate at a rate of 10 sinful humans per hour?
This is not a made up question, I'm paraphrasing a real question my wife asked a christian who came to our door back in 98' asking us to sign a petition to be sent to DC to support the impeachment process.
My old lady ROCKS!!
MYOB'
.
MYOB,
Yes, your old lady rocks. Tell her I said, drawing on my vast command of the English language and my dabbles in physics, "I don't know."
Though it wasn't really fair...my current fascination lies with general relativity, quantum mechanics and superstring, which may be the unification of the first two theories. I admit, I'm only able to get barest glimmers from any of it. I'm just not smart enough to fully grasp the intricate details, just the greater whole. The mathematical equations start rolling by, and my eyes glaze over.
pie - it has happened on both of the Kelly threads - I wonder why? I have to admit I'm guilty of getting OT in answering on the thread above. D'oh - I so know better.
New resolution - DNFTTs!
This is some really weird shit. grytpype
Speaking of really weird shit, there may even be weirder. Has anyone ever heard of NESARA, the Nat'l Economic Security & Reformation Act? I picked up a flyer today at the anti-war demo, and my mouth drops open everytime I read it. It says
A law was passed in March 2000 and signed into law by the sitting president in Ocrober of 2000. This law is called NESARA -- Nat'l Econ. Sec. & Reform. Act. This law provides the following:
Zeroing out credit card balances, forgiveness of mortgages and other bank debt as a remedy for 70 years of bank and gov't fraud.
It also lists "Abolishes the IRS and creates a new national sales tax ...." with a total of about 6 aims of NESARA. But the strangest one is #5:
[NESARA] Requires the current administration to resign their positions to allow a fresh start at the national level and installs Constitutionally acceptable NESARA President and Vice President Designates until new elections can take place within 120 days.
I read that over and over, and finally asked a man who was still passing out the flyers what it meant. He told me, after confirming that 'sitting president' meant Clinton, that it means the bush admin will resign and he said, that 'they' already have the resignations on tape!!!! How focking weird is that? This was a very average friendly guy at the demo.
They have a web site in anybody wants to look at it: NESARA. I forgot that March 22, next week is the begging date of the announcements period for this law to be broadcast worldwide from D.C. All these secret people are under 'gag order' -- that's why we've heard nothing about it.
Sorry for this to be so long, but it really took me aback, and I'm wondering, who can I talk to about this? So here I am -- no tinfoil hat on, just a wrinkled flyer from the anti-war demo in Salt Lake City. The LaRouchies were also there ...
Rev - I am fascinated by physics, too, and very - I mean very - ill equipped to really understand it at all. I am math-phobic, and sorry that I am. I would give a lot to be able to really understand the concepts. But even though I can only grasp the barest essentials, I find it wonderful beyond belief. Way beyond any religious ideas.
Streaker - I followed your link. That's very strange - I am not at all comfortable with any group that want to "designate" a president - not a good idea. It all sounds rather LaRouche-ish.
...I'm hunting through some of the work of the NPR reporter...and, I'm thinking this is quite bad. Really really bad. I think we know now part of the reason the liberal NPR isn't goddamn liberal at all, particularly on these types of issues where she handles much of the reporting.
(1) Examples of the "really really bad" work forthcoming, I hope. I've found Hagerty's work to be standard NPR fare--which is to say, rational, straightforward, and a bit bland. I've never noticed anything in her reporting that struck me as unfair or outrageous or biased; and I keep my ear pitched for just that kind of reporting.
(2) If NPR can be considered "liberal," it's because NPR does thoughtful, reflective, and balanced (and, again, often bland)work, taking more time than its American TV analogues; not because they're proselytizing liberals like Al Franken. The first sense seems to apply to NPR, while the second one doesn't. Which sense of the word do you mean?
Tena, I hadn't really considered that it might be a LaRouche site. I didn't see anything there. The first flyer I received was not near the LaRouche's table. The second one was. I'll bet that's what it is -- some LaRouche scam! But the bit about Clinton signing it should be documented. I'm going to look on google. Thanks.
Tena, I googled Larouche & NESARA, and there it was! Over 150 sites listed. I wuz took! Boy, are they going to be surprised next week when Bush doesn't resign!
Streaker - I just have real reservations about anything or anyone who claims that Bush will resign. He won't resign under any circumstances, unless he's totally told it's that or be fired. He's incapable of admitting a mistake in the first place, and that's the only reason a prez would be in the position of being pressured to resign. Man, he's so barricaded in that WH that it is going to take the Jaws of Life to pry him out.
I agree, Tena. He looks so arrogant and confident campaigning that it scares me.
Yeah, John Fund. What ever happened to the girlfriend beating charges? I mean....may the Lord look upon your work with holy rightiousness!
You know, it's funny that they actually claim to have Christian "apologists" (nationally known, at that) and in the same statement, say they want to: "focus on reporting from a unapologetic Christian point of view". Get your story straight, (you passive-aggressive dickheads).
He looks so confident and arrogant because he is clueless.
Fucking real-life Gilead. Really, given JFK's attitude that we can "win" Iraq like we could've "won" Nam, asking for 40,000 more body bags and all, we won't know if the election does anything until well after, and even then Amsterdam's looking good.
‡
I was a little disappointed when Judge Moore was forced to take away the ten commandments from the courthouse.I wanted to plant my own god there-the one that appears in the beginning of the Exorcist,with the five foot cock fully erected.
Thurber Hamm - LOL - christian apologists who want to report from an unapologetically christian viewpoint. Good one.
Hey,
Don't knock Judge Moore...He might be running for President some day!
Wait. You can't be Christian AND gay at the same time? Damn. Someone better call Bishop Robinson...
I just reread the post that this thread is supposed to be about. God's World Publications - you couldn't make this stuff up. Well you could, if you wrote for DC Vertigo - this is the stuff of graphic novels and comics - God's World Publications.
The U.S. has never been so surreal.
Well, lots of interesting comments here. Atrios says:
it seems they're quite good at creating fairly innocuous pieces which aren't obviously slanted propaganda, but which inevitably do push the position and emphasize the things you would expect.
As a few of you have already noted, this is no more than you could say for any reporter who actually has opinions. There is no such thing as 100% objective reporting. I don't think there's anything wrong with Christians being reporters, any more than committed atheists, progressives, etc. We can't get rid of bias unless we want all reporters to be people who have absolutely not opinions of their own--which would likely mean they were incurious, passive, and unintelligent, and therefore not likely to be much good at investigating anything (insert appropriate bashing about the quality of present-day reporters here).
Anonymous is half right about the Catholics. There is a growing fundie movement within Catholicism that is pretty much identical to Protestant fundieism in its social conservatism, but liberal Catholics are about as progressive a bunch as you could hope to find.
Oh, and someone asked what a professional apologist is. Assuming your question was sincere, not sarcastic, one meaning of the word "apologist" is someone who speaks on behalf of a particular point of view; so a Christian apologist would be a defender of the faith, someone like C.S. Lewis, for example.
As for myself, I'm a progressive nondenominational Christian who's also fascinated by quantum mechanics and superstring theory. I wish I had the math skills to really get into it, but I enjoy reading the layman's discussions of it in Discover magazine and the like. Now if they can just figure out that one rather large singularity . . .
HEY,ATRIOS, YOU DUMB PIECE OF SHIT: HERE'S ANOTHER FACULTY MEMBER, Larry Woiwode, WHOSE BORN BROTHERS IS BETTER THAN ANYTHING YOU COULD HOPE TO WRITE IN 5 LIFETIMES. SO GIVE IT UP, ASSHOLE.
Larry Woiwode's work has appeared in Esquire, the Atlantic Monthly, GQ, Harpers, the New Yorker, the Paris Review, and many other publications, and his work has been translated into a dozen languages. His eight novels include What I'm Going to Do, I Think--a first novel that won both the William Faulkner Foundation Award and a "notable book award" from the American Library Association; Beyond the Bedroom Wall--one of the finest novels to appear in our contemporary literature; Poppa John; Born Brothers; and Indian Affairs. He has been a Guggenheim Fellow, a John dos Passos Prize winner, a recipient of awards from the American Academy and Institute of Arts and Letters, a nominee for both the National Book Critics circle, and the National Book Award. Of his collection of short stories Silent Passengers, the novelist Charles Johnson said that Woiwode's "masterful hand and generous vision transform our most evanescent and commonplace experiences into something akin to gold....they are stories that sharpen our way of seeing from one of America's finest prose stylists." Larry has recently published What I Think I Did which is an account of living through the fiercest winter in North Dakota history in 1996. He uses this 'season of survival' as a base from which to examine memory, and departs from the ferocious blizzards and ravenous cold to revisit his early days in New York in the 1960s, where his life as a writer began under the mentorship of the great New Yorker editor William Maxwell. He lives in North Dakota with his wife and children where he continues to write..
Man, he's so barricaded in that WH that it is going to take the Jaws of Life to pry him out.
Or actual proof . . . I keep hoping that some of the many investigations now surrounding the administration will finally bear fruit in the form of verifiable evidence, something that will really stick. Otherwise, Tena, I think your analogy is too sadly appropriate.
The Catholic Church went through major reforms throughout the 20th century culminating in an event called the Second Vatican Coucil. It stated many things including: the Jews are not responsible for the crucifixtion, no one religion is superior and all religions are relevant, an emphasis on human dignity, etc. The result of thos declarations have meant that the US Bishops have called for diarmament, no land mines, no nuclear weapons, a progressive income tax, social security, elimination of the death penalty, aid for the impoverished, etc. The goal is justice not charity.
Catholic peace groups attend teh School of the America's watch each year and get arrested, they were at the FTAA protests, etc. Where were your secular asses today? Watching a peace demo on the tube?
hypocrites.
As a lifelong Catholic who just left the church, I can say that the Catholic Church is moving more to the right. I don't know why, I just know that I could no longer stand to sit in the pews and listen to anti-gay diatribes while our church did nothing ot help the poor in our city.
I was one of those so-called cafeteria Catholics and I got tired of being a hypocrite and having to hide my progressiveness from my church and my faith from my progressive friends.
I joined the Episcopal church this summer and have never been happier. In fact, I'm being confirmed in June. I don't know why more disgruntled Catholics don't look into the ECUSA.
In other religion news:Methodists acquit Lesbian Pastor
wait a minute, isn't GWB a Methodist?
Some alums of the World Journalism institute have a webpage. If you ever wanted to know just what you're dealing with, that will tell you.
Here's my post about it.
JKIIW-so a christian has talent and has won a lot of awards. Stephen King got awards just for volume. Certainly, nothing you said (assuming it's all true and for merit, not volume) contacts (let alone contradicts) anything Atrios said. Nor your rather inexplicable decision to call him things. Without Atrios's post we would've already been able to point out several other instances of Dominion-this is hardly a unique story, although this post is still valuable.
Typical crossworshipper.
From their "Why We Exist" section ...
To accomplish this journalistic task, a focused, rigorously theological, boot camp type of training approach to journalism has been established to train Christian journalists to be "watchmen" for our society.
Uh, right.
The lunies are officially running the asylum now.
Biblio -
We are lucky enough to have a very progreesive priest in our little village. I have learned an enormous amount from him. He may not actually believe in God - at least the way God is anthropomorphized in our culture. There ARE a lot of conservative Catholic churches and I too believe that trend is increasing. My wife and I have agreed that if we get some right wing yeller in the future that we would likely switch to the Episcopal church since we already socxialize with them a lot in the running of a soup kitchen. You probably made a very good choice. Hop it works out.
Hop = Hope
"..Of course, the point isn't that I think all journalists need to be secular..."
From the way this organization seems to act, it's probably safe to say that their intentions are exactly what we think and worry they're going to be, thus being civil is no longer an option.
I'm with two legs arms terrible, or whatever limbs working he calls himself.
A religious war is probably coming down the pipeline. With poor and intellectual seculars one side, dominionist christians in the middle, and rich CEO secularists pretending to be christians on the other side pulling the middle's puppet strings.
We need to start pointing out what this all really is, FASCISM, under the cover of religion. These self-same christians who talk about love and compassion have none of it nor show any of it. When jews were being tortured in the inquisitions they were told to embrace christ's love too. And if you said no, not tonight, I've got a headache, you'd be tortured and mutilated.
MYOB'
.
WJI = "Liars for Jesus"
You know, I think we've all fallen for a very elaborate hoax!
Biblio you think the guy got the Christ in the Ring idea from watching South Park? Perhaps after the Rapture these guys can go to the Celestial Gay bar/brothel and let it all out.
please Thurber...elaborate.
Atrios, I've looked at a couple of transcripts of Hagerty's reporting, and I don't see any overt bias, but in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a Christian journalist as well. But I'd be the first to object if she let her faith bias her reporting.
She's a Christian who reports on religion, yes, but the transcripts I've read where she's covering same-sex marriage in one household and gay unions in the Episcopal church don't show any pro-Christian, anti-gay bias, in my opinion. But I'd appreciate it if you could list some specific examples of her work that you found objectionable. Maybe I've missed something. Thanks.
The bulk of the preceeding comments seem to have little or nothing to do with the issue.
NPR is on in my house cclose to 24 hrs a day, controlled by the computer and pumped into the workshop and other spaces. Granted it is the "Music" side but with Morning Edition and All Things considered, it's quite a dose.
I find NPR quite fair and am continually defending it from my "rightist" friends. Barbara Bradley Hagerty is a name I confess I have heard of but not a name on every lip. Nina Totenberg (certainly no religious fanatic nor enemy of such progressive things as gay marriage) is the commentator on the Department of Justice and legal affairs. I don't recall ever having to listen to Barbara Baby.
With so many enemies out there, do we have to go looking for witch hunts among media outlets with a record of general friendship to liberal ideas?
Stanford lost today (yea!)...So did Gonzaga (awww..).
This is really terrifying. Atrios, thank you for being on the front lines as America is destroyed beyond repair. I know you're trying your best to stop the bleeding of this once-beautiful country.
Why isn't it enough anymore? Why don't we live in a country that allows freedom of choice? Why do anti-gay, anti-free speech, anti-everything bigots rule the airwaves?
We are all dead. All we can do is flee America.
Hey so-called "Christian journalist", why don't you do a story on the morality of taking one groups's money, against their will, in the form of tax contributions, and use it to discriminate against them?
Err, can I have my money back?
ONWARD CHRISTIAN JOURNALISTS!
Why should I be tolerent of any school of thought that feels I will be punished with eternal torture because I don't believe what its adherents believe?.... It's all horsefeathers and fairy tales to me.
When you describe it that way, it is to me, too.
And I'm an ordained Christian minister.
Takes all kinds, I suppose.
I'm sick of what I've seen religion do to this country and to the world.
Actually, I'm simply sick of what I've seen people do in the name of religion. Then again, they'll use one excuse when another won't do. There was much slaughter in the world before Christianity became the state religiond of Europe (as the slaves who revolted with Spartacus, or the people men, women, and children slaughtered in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Romans.) Simply recounting the slaughters you know doesn't mean the slaughters you don't know, and that had nothing to do with Christianity, didn't happen.
Most of the world religion's and social philosophies (Confucianism, Taoism), actually teach tolerance, peace, and justice. But Buddhist monks learn "martial arts," George Patton read his Bible "evey goddamned day," and Harry Truman was a good Christian who never lost a wink of sleep over the destruction of Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Any more than the then-reigning Caesar worried about the destruction of Jerusalem.
Slaughter is human. Religion is human. There are more adherents to some form of religion in the world today, or at any time in human history, than there are agnostics, atheists, or "non-believers." You think you're in the minority. You are. You think you're oppressed. I'm not convinced. You think religion is a bad thing. Tell me what's wrong with: "Love your enemy. Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you."
Those words are brought to you, 2000 years after they were first spoken, by organized religion. The preserver of part of the human heritage. An imperfect preservationist, at best.
But stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's as childish as schoolyard taunting.
"Oh yeah?!?!?!?!?!"
MYOB, you might really like The Right Christians blog, and also the Gutless Pacifist blog. Agree with your comment!
Young Americans Foundation has a Center for Journalism. It's a similar thing but not a full school, just programs, seminars, etc. Oh yeah, and lots of help getting internships with major media outlets. There's a Young Britons now, too, militantly moving in on the existing youth arm of the Tory party. Both groups do the same sorts of things, turning out lists of professors with perceived left biases, etc.
Hey, so-called Christian journalist! I want my money back you've taken from me. I need it for my "getting the buh-jeebus away from the Christian whack-jobs fund."
I haven't read the other comments above but this story smells suspeciously like a Unification church thing.
Have a look at this list!
http://www.worldji.com/faculty.asp
The question isn't if a reporter can have affiliations or opinions. It's a question of if their opinions regularly leak into their "reporting" or their affiliations conflict in a serious way with an ongoing story. Asking if a reporter's reporting is as objective as it should be isn't McCarthyism nor is pointing out bias. That's called being a responsible consumer of the product. It should also be the least that can be expected of a reporter's editor and the higher levels of a news operation.
And, man, you should see the looks on their faces when I bring up other "crucified saviors" like Krishna and Mithras.
Rev B, we are definitely two of a kind. I brought up Krishna with a fundie at work who was trying to "test" me by asking what other religion had its "lord" resurrect, and I named off Krishna, along with the otherusual suspects, especially from religions older than Christianity. His head nearly exploded. Most fundies have never really studied another religion. They only know what they've heard about them.
I used to have lots of fun with that fundie. I refused to lose my temper with him or get upset or any of that. Instead, I would use mental judo on him. He would try to sell a religious point to me and I'd respond with, "Well, I understand what you're saying, but..." then I would offer a "possible" alternative, in a sweet voice, with a smile. After a while, he stopped talking religion with me, quit trying to convert me. He did say, that he enjoyed talking about religion with me, even if I wasn't a believer, because I at least listened to him, let him speak his piece, rather than telling him to shut up and mind his own business. If only all fundies would know when to let something go with such grace, as he did...
some others members of the faculty:
Fred Barnes, The Weekly Standard
Don Boykin, Atlanta Journal-Constitution
David Byrd, Voice of America
Steve Coleman, Associated Press Radio
Gregg Easterbrook, The New Republic
John Fund, Wall Street Journal
Tim Goeglein, Office of Public Liaison, The White House
Johnny Hart, Cartoonist
Rich Lowry, National Review
Michelle Malkin, Nationally syndicated columnist and author
Steve Massey, Spokesman Review
Marvin Olasky, University of Texas/WORLD magazine
David Ortiz, Shopping Centers Today [!]
Star Parker, Coalition on Urban Renewal and Education
Cal Thomas, Syndicated columnist
With all the talk about the evils of religion, I get the impression some of you haven't heard of the French Revolution--you know, the preachers of human rights, the followers of Voltaire (the Church-hating antisemite), the ones who starting murdering people in the name of liberty. There's also an impressive bodycount compiled by some dedicated religion-hating lefty secularists in the 20th century.
It's been my impression that when you look at history, nobody has a monopoly on using their beliefs (secular or religious) as an excuse for killing people. You even find secularists who want to force people to believe the correct things. I thought this was a truism, but I guess some secularists are like the naive Presybterians at my childhood church--the ones who thought it was only the Catholics who persecuted people back in the 16th century. They hadn't outgrown the childishly naive view that having the right set of religious beliefs (or no beliefs) makes one virtuous, and having the wrong set of religious beliefs makes one evil.
As for banning parents from teaching religion to their children--well, I guess everyone understands this is just so much hot air and if taken seriously it is a form of totalitarianism. If there's going to be a religious war as some here fantasize, apparently we're going to have extremist fanatics on both sides. What fun.
from their web site:
The Institute is a member of various journalism and media associations. These memberships are important because they keep the Institute involved in professional activities and current on the latest issues in our profession.
The World Journalism Institute is an active member of the following professional associations:
American Society of Newspaper Editors
Media Fellowship International
The International Society of Weekly Newspaper Editors
Association of Christian Collegiate Media
Committee of Concerned Journalists
Association for Education in Journalism and Mass Communication
Council for Christian Colleges and Universities
MYOB
Your wife's question reminds me of the eternal smart-ass's question in Sunday School:
If God is so powerful, can he make a rock that even he can't lift?
Yeah, Carlin used it in a routine, but one of my cousins asked that in a Sunday School class before we knew Carlin existed. He always was a smart aleck.
Then again...When we were really little, my cousin used to run around the house after getting a bath with his underwear on his head and yelling, "I'm the Spaghetti Man!" He turned out okay. Honest. LOL
Another anonymous, what frightens me isn't Christians. It's how any fundamentalist ideology can so completely consume one's mind, they cease to be, in my opinion, human. They're like bible-bots.
Since you want to bring up historical grievances, how about the 2 thousand years of systematic persecution of gays by Christendom, of whom there must have at least a billion gays either killed or forced to live closeted lives. Must have been some persecution that they didn't feel safe to re-emerge until about 30 years ago? Why don't you Christians go live in closets for 2 thousand years or be killed and see how you like it?
Is it Christians that persecuted homosexuals for the last 2000 years or "people", in general, that persecuted homosexuals since the beginning of time?
I'm guessing the latter. In fact, this is perhaps annecdotal, in the essentially practicing-Christian-free U.S.S.R and recent times of Communist China, wasn't homosexuals criminally persecuted?
But besides that, we all know that homosexuals were persecuted in different cultures long before Christ came along.
"Christendom"
I love coming to this site, and I eagerly await the coming of John Kerry to the White House and the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. I was discussing politics with a friend from Iran who lives in Michigan now, who was formerly jailed for his Christian faith in Iran. He thinks Bush is horrible, too.
Nevertheless,
God, through the sacrificial death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, has lovingly redeemed a people who are commanded to believe in Him and to live holy lives through the enablement of the Holy Spirit. After Christ's bodily return to this earth to claim His people, they will reign with Him in the life to come. Those who do not believe will be judged by God and made subject to his eternal punishment.
I'm a "safe" Christian, politically. I know that the Rapture comes first, then the tribulation, then the Milleneal reign, then the Judgement. I don't have to vote in the Kingdom Dominionists. I have to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with my God, not run the system.
But I gingerly suggest that some here start inquiring as to how they can enhance their justice and mercy with a little more humble-with-God walking.
I'm Bryan, an avid reader, occasional poster, and Christain Democrat and I endorsed this message.
Just saying...Good thing we're finally making progress. But if it wasn't Christiandom, it would have probably been some other label under which the ignorant, intolerant masses would have persecuted homosexuals.
Some cultures persecuted, others didn't. Ancient Greece and Rome didn't. Political ideology plays a part of it today. It's not surprising human beings in the majority, regardless of religion, will persecute a minority that's precieved to be different.
"Sodomy" laws were used to kill gays with at one time in this country. Although a clear violation of church and state, they remained on the books until this year because the hated minority were gays.
Slaughter is human. Religion is human. There are more adherents to some form of religion in the world today, or at any time in human history, than there are agnostics, atheists, or "non-believers." You think you're in the minority. You are. You think you're oppressed. I'm not convinced. You think religion is a bad thing. Tell me what's wrong with: "Love your enemy. Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you."
Those words are brought to you, 2000 years after they were first spoken, by organized religion. The preserver of part of the human heritage. An imperfect preservationist, at best.
But stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's as childish as schoolyard taunting.
Robert M. Jeffers | Email | Homepage | 03.20.04 - 9:40 pm | #
Thank you, Robert, for this breath of clarity and sanity.
Ideology or nationalism plays a part when a nation doesn't want to be percieved to the rest of the world that they're all just a bunch of pole-smokers so they will persecute gays which is part of the old Soviet Union's reasons and our past reason especially during the Cold War.
You know...
I saw the list earlier of WJI's (presumably) Christian faculty, ready to inculcate future journalists in reporting from a Christian perspective.. and it had Michele MaliceKid on it. Isn't this the same wingnut who posed naked behind an American flag?
Please don't make me look it up. Please.
The Church made it legitimate as they once did for the practice of slavery in this country.
Maybe there is a natural "God-part" of the brain built in to allow human beings to accept their own mortality. There are a lot of belief systems which hold that there is an afterlife.
Wacko fundamentalist religious extremists of any stripe are dangerous.
Unfortunately, the powers that be in US government are almost to a man are wacko fundamentist evangelical Christian nutcases.
I'm my view, fundamentalist Christians are more dangerous than the Islamic extremists. They're better organized, have way more money and control the most powerful military and economy in the world.
If you want to find out a little more about how pervasive they are check out Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party.
So... magical coming to senses of all sorts of nuts, mass exodus of the sane, or civil war? I'm betting for a little each of #2 and #3. Be ready.
Wacko fundamentalist religious extremists of any stripe are dangerous.
Unfortunately, the powers that be in US government are almost to a man are wacko fundamentist evangelical Christian nutcases.
I'm my view, fundamentalist Christians are more dangerous than the Islamic extremists. They're better organized, have way more money and control the most powerful military and economy in the world.
If you want to find out a little more about how pervasive they are check out Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party.
Unfortunately, the powers that be in US government are almost to a man are wacko fundamentist evangelical Christian nutcases.
After 911 when the "fundamentalist Muslims" plowed planes in the WTC, Christians, who once proudly proclaimed they were "fundamentalist Christans" took to calling themselves "Evangelicals" instead. Go figure.
"..You think religion is a bad thing. Tell me what's wrong with: "Love your enemy. Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you..."
Robert M. Jeffers | Email | Homepage | 03.20.04 - 9:40 pm | #
Ephesians 2:8-9
"..For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
In simpler terms:
"I don't fucking care how nice, giving, caring, merciful, or selfless you are mortal! Kiss my ass and bend over or you're gonna fry!"
First Corinthians 2:14
"..But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Put in simpler terms:
"I've kept myself hidden from you and removed all evidence of my existence except through the words of a series of thousands of years old books which were written by men, and was preached by perverts, billionares, narcissists, and used as an excuse for much of the world's most evil acts, but that is still no excuse for not kissing my ass and believing in me!"
"..Those words are brought to you, 2000 years after they were first spoken, by organized religion.."
Prove it.
"..The preserver of part of the human heritage. An imperfect preservationist, at best.."
And this is supposed to convince me to throw out the fact 1+1=2, and instead say it =3?
"But stop throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's as childish as schoolyard taunting."
If I find a sub sandwich with dog shit stuck between the loafs, I'm not going to eat at the sub around the turd, I'm going to throw the whole damn tainted shit out!
MYOB'
.
after listening to that Canadian woman on bill maher's show, emigrating is sounding better and better cause i do not much care for alot of what is coming about in america.
"...A truly unique learning experience for current and aspiring Christian journalists has been created."
On the other hand, if these paragraphs are an example of their proposed writing style, they're not going to be setting the world on fire anytime soon. It reads like an annual report.
A lot of posters seem to be fantasizing about or promising to move to Canada or Europe. Without malice, I'd just like to point out that they're saving trolls the trouble of saying "love it or leave it."
And what the hell is christian perspective graphic design? I mean WTF???
That's just goofy.
four legs good | Email | Homepage | 03.20.04 - 4:41 pm | #
Judging from the church in my new neighborhood Christian architecture means lots of red neon. A big fucking red neon cross seven foot high. Thats more red neon then the porno shop on S. Lamar.
I don't think we should get too excited about this. Everyone has an agenda. It could be environmental bias or Democratic bias. I think we should give people more credit on their bias meter.
"A lot of posters seem to be fantasizing about or promising to move to Canada or Europe. Without malice, I'd just like to point out that they're saving trolls the trouble of saying "love it or leave it."
dimwit | Email | Homepage | 03.21.04 - 2:03 am | #
I just don't want me and my family to be here when the rest of the world finally gets tired of this shit. Sure, the U.S has nukes, but the Russians still have more even after all the rounds of talks. You think seeing what Bush and this administration are about is going to make thme think they can trust us? Then when you combine them with those that France, Germany, India, U.K, and all those others who have them, but don't declare them, well shit can happen?
Then there are the russian suitcase bombs that were declared missing. The day after it was mentioned, the story jas practically dropped off the U.S media radar.
MYOB'
.
A lot of posters seem to be fantasizing about or promising to move to Canada or Europe. Without malice, I'd just like to point out that they're saving trolls the trouble of saying "love it or leave it."
dimwit
Yeah I know and I'm torn by it. I'll probably stay just to finally get my chance at them. I've never seen one I couldn't make short work of.
I have no problem with christians, jews, buddhists, muslims, or atheists or gays or whatever in the media.
In a laughing, tongue in cheek way, i just wanted to poitn out that "gay" is not a religion. Atheist is, but not gay.
But I gingerly suggest that some here start inquiring as to how they can enhance their justice and mercy with a little more humble-with-God walking.
Bryan
Which god? At this point in history, I think Thor would be the best god to have a chat with. In fact, I would say that if the left were to decide it absolutely must embrace a god to get through this political season, Thor would be the man. He can whip up a mighty self righteuos anger and knock over his enemies with a single thunderbolt!Google "asatru" for his address.
(I get a Cultural Studies shiver whenever I use "Google" as a verb. Ooh!)
Then after Thor uses up his energy on election day, Thoth is another good god to choose; wisdom, invention, charity. Nice kinda progressive, scientific long term kinda god. Thor should be sufficiently well rested after four years.
Anyway, Bryan, I don't care how progressive you are, there is no greater evil than proselytizing.
slightly OT, but since we're talking about religion anyway, does anyone know how I can get myself excommunicated from the Catholic church without being antagonistic to them?
It kinda bugs me that they count me when they make claims about how many followers they have. But I don't want to make enemies, or insult some poor priest who doesn't deserve it just to get myself of the list. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any site that will tell me how I can get off that list without committing certain sins that I'm not interested in committing.
If anyone has experience with this, let me know
Wow. Bryan, you are building your own PVR. You have my awe. I think you win "geek of the year." (I say this as a proud film geek). You may also be insane (for the tech stuff, not the religous stuff.) Thanks for your message.
America is rapidly heading towards a theocracy. You'll really feel it when they target the internet in ways beyond screeching about pornography.
America is rapidly heading towards a theocracy. You'll really feel it when they target the internet in ways beyond screeching about pornography.
America is rapidly heading towards a theocracy. You'll really feel it when they target the internet in ways beyond screeching about pornography.
America is rapidly heading towrds a theocracy.
NHjay
When you refresh the comment window, it reposts your last post.
oops very sorry. Didn't mean for the duplicate posts. Didn't think it posted. Very sorry. Know better now.
Atheism isn't a religion or a system of beliefs. It's a distinct lack thereof. You don't have to have faith to be an atheist.
"Arrghhh!
I refuse to call these people Christians anymore. They have nothing in common with Christ.
I think we all know the difference between Muslims and "Islamists." I propose a similar distinction between mainstream Christians and these end-times wingnuts. But what? Christists? Christlicans? Christocrats? Biblicans? (in which case I will gladly change my username!)
I will mull this over in church tomorrow.
Biblio"
Sorry about the late reply to a post waaaaay upthread, but I have a good answer.
Faithscists
This is no time to have a wife and kids clinging to ya. Thank fate I'm gay so no kids, in my prime and not responsible to anyone and can just throw some items into the back of my vehicle, and I'm outta here. That may seem selfish, but like the Republicans always say, it's everybody for themselves. I just need to make it to the end of summer to have the money I think I'll need to disappear out there. I have a lot of high-end items in my house but I can liquidate them. They would be impractical to carry with me; high speed, no drag. No bills, no thrills, but I'll survive. I could always sneak across the border as an illegal immigrant into Canada, ay, but I would have to keep my mouth shut or my thick drawl would give me away. The possiblities are endless.
Thanks KS. Very sorry about that. Know better now.
With my drawl, they would probably want to kill me. I need to lose it. Any tapes on speaking Canadian?
No great evil than proselytizing? So greed, exploitation of the poor, racism, "ethnic cleansing" ... all lesser evils in comparison. Yeah.
Well, when greed, exploitation of the poor, racism, and ethnic cleansing have so often come under either the "will of God" or the "okay of God", ya gotta wonder...
There is no greater evil than the evil committed by a man with "God on his said".
"God on his side", rather...
Anyway, Bryan, I don't care how progressive you are, there is no greater evil than proselytizing. - KS ~
When I wake up in the morning and see the Washington Times in front of the opposite apartment door, I shudder. Not only because of the conservative bent of the document but because it is owned by the Unification Church, as readers here well know. So I understand the apprehension at such a group as the one discussed here, because one is not allowed to know how much of the Times is driven by fact and how much driven by opinion in the writing. This form of end-run proselytizing tries to seep into people's lives, without ever actually engaging anyone. Sad, possibly evil.
I assert that proselytizing in and of itself if done directly is not evil; when proselytizing turns to harrassment, when no respect for the God-given capacity of free will is offered to others, then the 'evil' moniker may be applied.
I do understand though that proselytizing is often interpreted as demeaning - to walk up to someone, look them in the eye, and say the effect of "your entire view of the universe is distorted and had negative consequences for your heretofore undefined 'soul'" We can debate whether such directness is proper for a pluralistic society, but a social contract that precludes as a social evil the ability to proselytize is the first step towards freedom from speech.
Kudos to the NYT for not hiring any of those nutcakes or allowing their reporters on the faculty. The Washington Post does and should be ashamed.
KS ~,
I don't know about the Catholic church, but not going to services and not contributing any money supposedly works for the Lutherans. At least that's what the pastor told me right after my confirmation, knowing he was never going to see me again.
So-called Christian journalist, I want my money back!
GIVE ME MY DAMN MONEY BACK!!!!
STOP THEIF! THEIF! THEIF! THEIF!
See, I'm so upset by being mugged in broad daylight, I can't even spell!
STOP THIEF! THIEF! THIEF! THIEF!
From WJI's "why we exist" page:
"In our post-modern world, language is used not to reveal and enlighten but to conceal, deceive, and obfuscate. Symbols are more important than words. "The fundamental issue in Christian journalism that is truly biblical is the issue of truth -- the truth of the theological assertions implicit in one's journalistic approach and content.""
Well, gee, "conceal, decieve, and obfuscate" is the motto of the Bushies those fundies are covering for.
Betsy Hart of the Independent Women's Forum is one of the "faculty." IWF is listed on the links page. IWF started out as a support group, Women for Clarence Thomas, when he was up for the U. S. Supreme Court seat he currently sleeps in, when he's not playing Uncle Tom with Scalia.
If you want to see a genuine ideal of Christian journalism, go to the Christian Science Monitor.
Balanced, careful journalism. Hard hitting at times, but always reasoned.
Run by a non-profit, so not beholden to anyone.
Its restrictions? They don't report disasters, except to talk about safety issues. Likewise scandals (a grand total of maybe 5 articles on the OJ case, IIRC.)
Against expectations, as good health and science coverage as in any newspaper.
One religious article a day, clearly marked.
It's not only possible to have Christian journalism, it's being practiced every day in plain sight.
Christian Science has as loopy a theology as anybody, but the Monitor shows that that doesn't equate to slant or hysteria.
I know I am a latecomer here but this is great stuff.
We live in impoverished time. Not even our conspiracies are really secret anymore. The outsources give NPR interviews and form lobbying organizations, and the cabals of religious fanatics set up foundations to help them subvert our press. What I wouldn't give for a few whispers in the dark or secret, coded messages.
Christian Science Monitor was recently sued by Galloway in England because they printed a forged document that said he was in the pay of Saddam.
They had to pay Galloway a LOT of money, you know.
Atheism isn't a religion or a system of beliefs. It's a distinct lack thereof. You don't have to have faith to be an atheist.
Reverend Backslider
I'd say embracing atheism takes an incredible step of faith. I tried it for while, but ultimately i couldn't convince myself to believe. And atheism is not only a leap of faith, it's one of the most profound religious statements one can make.
and as for my earlier statement of their being no greater evil than proselytizing, I stand by it. I define it in a way that includes the evil done towards those who wouldn't convert; the lives and traditions lost to proselytizing; the groups forced to practise their beliefs in secret to avoid persecution; People who are away from home and disoriented (ie at college or university) who were roped in when their guard was down by "campus crusaders" - bastards, if you let these people to secular counselling they'd find the path most suitable to them. Proselytizing makes me think of people who tell me my path is evil and then proceed to demonstrate that they know nothing about it, or any other religion - this ignorance masked by self-righteous misinformation is evil . it's not always in the context of religion, but look what this perspective did to clinton, look how many wars it started, and have no doubt that misinformation-masked ignorance is fuelling the current attempts to make gays 2nd class.
So yeah, when i think of all the evils in the world today, I think of the driving force behind proselytizing, which sums up nicely to "You (the proselytizer) cannot respect my beliefs." I respect your beliefs, and I am happy to engage in an academic discussion of them, but the minute you engage in proselytizing, you are violating that respect.
I don't believe in hell, but if I did, there would be a special place there for proselytizers.
We can debate whether such directness is proper for a pluralistic society, but a social contract that precludes as a social evil the ability to proselytize is the first step towards freedom from speech.
So you will listen politely if I knock on your door or lure you to a campus event with free food, and then start trying to convince you to embrace paganism? You think it would be a-okay for Wiccans to hand out recruitment pamphlets on halloween?
Can I write holiday articles for the local paper saying that all of these "put the Christ back in Christmas" people are misguided, that the solstice festival is really all about the strengthening of the sun, and giving thanks for the past year and celebrating with family, not hiding in a church worshipping a godman who was born in september? That it was an act of Roman oppression to put the Christ into the solstice festival in the first place? If you have no problem with those articles, i'm prepared to write 'em. But it won't happen. Cause it's only acceptable in our society for Christians to proselytize. That's why its evil, its the benign expression of religious intolerance. and the benign expressions lead to the malignant expressions if allowed to go unchecked.
I think we all know the difference between Muslims and "Islamists." I propose a similar distinction between mainstream Christians and these end-times wingnuts. But what? Christists? Christlicans? Christocrats? Biblicans? (in which case I will gladly change my username!)
Christstains
Eli Lilly contributed big $ to NPR to report on "religious issues." I guess it's hard to turn the other cheek to those $. I don't want to hear about Jesus, Mohammed or Buddha during the news or any other time on NPR. Barbara Bradley Haggerty drives me bonkers and so do Meeechelle Norris and Melissa Block. They're all a bunch of sanctimonious twits disguised as journalists. Don Gagne (sp) has been choking on turkee and Juan Williams has been pretending to be a black guy. Now they've got "commentators" talking about Jesus. Christ. I'm done with them.
I think we all know the difference between Muslims and "Islamists." I propose a similar distinction between mainstream Christians and these end-times wingnuts. But what? Christists? Christlicans? Christocrats? Biblicans? (in which case I will gladly change my username!)
Christstains
Christstains
Leviticultists.
You guys are so-o-o wonderful. You finally see some actual Christians allowing their faith to affect what they do IN PUBLIC (not just in their minds, where people like you can't see it) and you guys go completely off the deep end.
It's very, very sweet, and this ever-so-committed "evangelical" Christian thanks you.
When the guys at the World Journalism Institute read these comments (and they're savvy enough to find them before the day is out, I'm sure), they will lean back, sigh, and know that they're having a profound impact on the enemies of Christ's kingdom.
Take care, and keep up the good work.
Fred Barnes is also here.
This is the guy who had no problem pimping Juanita Hickey-Broaddrick's Clinton-raped-me tales, but got all upset when Selene Walters made similar claims (and with far better evidence) against Ronald Reagan.
You guys are so-o-o wonderful. You finally see some actual Christians allowing their faith to affect what they do IN PUBLIC (not just in their minds, where people like you can't see it) and you guys go completely off the deep end.
So are you saying that lying like rugs and bearing false witness against thy neighbor are Christian values?
Go read M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie, and find out how Satan, the Prince of Lies, has messed with your lie-loving head.
Consider this quote, in reference to Joe Lieberman's vice-presidential candidacy in the 2000 presidential campaign:
"Would you really be more proud of and more connected to your
Judaism if it had nothing to say about hunger or homelessness; nothing
to say about capital punishment or abortion; nothing to say about
euthanasia or rationing health care; nothing to say about genetic
engineering or third world debt, violence or pornography, poverty or
slavery? Would Judaism truly inspire you and uplift you, would it
transform your soul and realize your dreams if it was merely a
complete theory of candle lighting and bread blessing?"
-- Marc Gellman, "Joe Lieberman as Rorschach Test", _First
Things_, Dec. 2000
If this rings true for you, then consider that your objection to this organization of journalists is primarily an objection to Christians anywhere in public life.
The real story on Roy Rivenburg's ethics as a journalist can be found with a thorough perusal of the web site at http://www.michelthomas.org.
This is a web site put up by friends of Michel Thomas, whom Rivenburg falsely portrayed as fraud in a lengthy profile of Thomas in April 2001.
Thomas, now 90, lost his family to Auschwitz and fought with the French Resistance and US Counter Intelligence Corps in WWII. John LeCarre has called him "one of the bravest men you will ever read about."
Rivenburg ignored a mountain of evidence Thomas and his biographer showed him, then misled sources to elicit quotes falsely painting Thomas as a phony Dachau liberator, and as a wannabe CIC Agent. The sources later recanted their statements when shown the evidence Rivenburg knew, but did not disclose.
Rivenburg also implied Thomas fabricated or exaggerated his role in rescuing the Nazi Party's worldwide membership card files from destruction in the closing days of the war. The leading expert in the world on captured German war documents, Robert Wolfe, has written and testified that Thomas made a historic contribution when he saved these files from destruction in May 1945.
Thomas fought back with everything he had, suing the Times and Rivenburg for defamation. He lost the case, but not because the Times tried to defend the truth or accuracy of Rivenburg's reporting. Over 350 people have sent letters to the Times protesting the article, and asking the Times to re-report the story of Thomas's life in light of the overwhelming evidence that has been put forth, including testimonials from still-living WWII comrades, and extensive documentation from the National Archives, and opinions from experts around the world. Thomas even testified at a mock trial at Berkeley about the case last year, to get the evidence of his life into a public forum.
When the Times published a series of angry letters in response to Rivenburg's "cheap shot" journalism, they also included one that appeared to approve of the article. Except that the alleged writer of that letter never wrote it. His sworn Declaration stating this appears on the web site. It was apparently cobbled together from emails the man exchanged with Rivenburg prior to publication of the article. (See the Declaration of Conrad McCormick on the web site at www.michelthomas.org) Rivenburg has never responded to questions about this, or many other issues raised about his reporting in this article.
The Times and Rivenburg have ducked any comment on all the evidence they have been presented, and Times editor John Carroll recently stated to an audience at Berkeley that Thomas's 'claims' were 'preposterous,' that if you believed Thomas he 'single-handedly won WWII for us.' He said he was proud of the article, and that the paper stands behind every word of it.
It is a story of media bullying unlike any I have ever encountered. The Times has hidden behind the First Amendment, and let stand a
Roy Rivenurg of the Christian World Journalism Institute
The real story on Roy Rivenburg's ethics as a journalist can be found with a thorough perusal of the web site at http://www.michelthomas.org.
This is a web site put up by friends of Michel Thomas, whom Rivenburg falsely portrayed as fraud in a lengthy profile of Thomas in April 2001.
Thomas, now 90, lost his family to Auschwitz and fought with the French Resistance and US Counter Intelligence Corps in WWII. John LeCarre has called him "one of the bravest men you will ever read about."
Rivenburg ignored a mountain of evidence Thomas and his biographer showed him, then misled sources to elicit quotes falsely painting Thomas as a phony Dachau liberator, and as a wannabe CIC Agent. The sources later recanted their statements when shown the evidence Rivenburg knew, but did not disclose.
Rivenburg also implied Thomas fabricated or exaggerated his role in rescuing the Nazi Party's worldwide membership card files from destruction in the closing days of the war. The leading expert in the world on captured German war documents, Robert Wolfe, has written and testified that Thomas made a historic contribution when he saved these files from destruction in May 1945.
Thomas fought back with everything he had, suing the Times and Rivenburg for defamation. He lost the case, but not because the Times tried to defend the truth or accuracy of Rivenburg's reporting. Over 350 people have sent letters to the Times protesting the article, and asking the Times to re-report the story of Thomas's life in light of the overwhelming evidence that has been put forth, including testimonials from still-living WWII comrades, and extensive documentation from the National Archives, and opinions from experts around the world. Thomas even testified at a mock trial at Berkeley about the case last year, to get the evidence of his life into a public forum.
When the Times published a series of angry letters in response to Rivenburg's "cheap shot" journalism, they also included one that appeared to approve of the article. Except that the alleged writer of that letter never wrote it. His sworn Declaration stating this appears on the web site. It was apparently cobbled together from emails the man exchanged with Rivenburg prior to publication of the article. (See the Declaration of Conrad McCormick on the web site at www.michelthomas.org) Rivenburg has never responded to questions about this, or many other issues raised about his reporting in this article.
The Times and Rivenburg have ducked any comment on all the evidence they have been presented, and Times editor John Carroll recently stated to an audience at Berkeley that Thomas's 'claims' were 'preposterous,' that if you believed Thomas he 'single-handedly won WWII for us.' He said he was proud of the article, and that the paper stands behind every word of it.
It is a story of media bullying unlike any I have ever encountered. The
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