I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Frist!
Oh that's bad
That's really bad.
Ahh Clarke, I love the man:
RICHARD CLARKE: Actually, I've got about seven points, let me just go through them quickly. Um, the first point, I think the overall point is, there was no plan on Al Qaeda that was passed from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration.
Second point is that the Clinton administration had a strategy in place, effectively dating from 1998. And there were a number of issues on the table since 1998. And they remained on the table when that administration went out of office — issues like aiding the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, changing our Pakistan policy -- uh, changing our policy toward Uzbekistan. And in January 2001, the incoming Bush administration was briefed on the existing strategy. They were also briefed on these series of issues that had not been decided on in a couple of years.
And the third point is the Bush administration decided then, you know, in late January, to do two things. One, vigorously pursue the existing policy, including all of the lethal covert action findings, which we've now made public to some extent.
And the point is, while this big review was going on, there were still in effect, the lethal findings were still in effect. The second thing the administration decided to do is to initiate a process to look at those issues which had been on the table for a couple of years and get them decided.
So, point five, that process which was initiated in the first week in February, uh, decided in principle, uh in the spring to add to the existing Clinton strategy and to increase CIA resources, for example, for covert action, five-fold, to go after Al Qaeda.
The sixth point, the newly-appointed deputies — and you had to remember, the deputies didn't get into office until late March, early April. The deputies then tasked the development of the implementation details, uh, of these new decisions that they were endorsing, and sending out to the principals.
Over the course of the summer — last point — they developed implementation details, the principals met at the end of the summer, approved them in their first meeting, changed the strategy by authorizing the increase in funding five-fold, changing the policy on Pakistan, changing the policy on Uzbekistan, changing the policy on the Northern Alliance assistance.
Please read the whole thing..
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2...,115085,00.html
War is hell.
Is Colin Powell sprouting a semi -spine?
While saying that Mr. Clarke's book is "not the complete story," Mr. Powell said on the PBS program "NewsHour" he was "not attributing any bad motives" to Mr. Clarke.
"I'm not aware of a campaign against Mr. Clarke, and I am not a member," Mr. Powell said. "The book is the book, and you can read it and make your own judgment as to whether it's accurate."
http://tinyurl.com/3dcbn
wow.
I'm speechless.
Not only did they lie, but Marshall narrows the origin of this particular lie down to Bush himself.
War is hell on the truth, it would seem.
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Tell the children? Why, we'll do what we ALWAYS do!
(And what is that, Brain?)
We'll tell them that IT'S OK IF YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN!
Given the popularity here of labelling anyone who holds nonconforming
political opinions a "Brown Shirt Fuck" it is interesting to review a comment
which was placed here a while ago by a person who calls himself "Old Hat":
Ricky, if you're not too busy masterbating in your own feces and
listening to your dog tell you to kill your landlady like the whacked out
schizophrenic nutter you are, whatever you do, don't look at this
cartoon.
Old Hat | Email | Homepage | 03.05.04 - 7:13 pm | #
Charming, isn't it? As the operator of a political hate site one expects
"atrios" to attract some fairly low life, but Old Hat is alas not atypical.
As political repression, verbal violence, personal attacks and thuggishly
ganging up on opponents are traits of fascism then by any measure, Old Hat is
a fascist.
And as he lacks even the ability to correctly spell the name of a practice
which appears to hold special significance to him, he well earns the
"Moronic" epithet.
Old Hat is a frequent commenter here, and the fact that his comment went
unremarked and certainly unchallenged by the rest of the "atrios" dittoheads
taints each one of you.
Colin Powell must be the most uninformed General and cabinet member on the face of the planet today, if not in the whole history of the planet.
Well, as long as they're getting loud mouthed know-nothings to spread around innuendo while quietly issuing Friday retractions, Bill "Cat Killa" Frist, M.D. would be your logical choice.
And I denounce Old Hat in the strongest terms possible! Now give me my $3.50!
"I'm not aware of a campaign against Mr. Clarke"
OK, Colin. I'll buy that. IN HELL WHERE YOU ARE GOING!
...top White House aides have told the press that the president personally initiated and is directing this campaign against Clarke. Not outside rabble-rousers, not nefarious aides operating on their own account, but the president himself. This is all his doing, according to his own staffers.
It's Nixon/Dean all over again.
And I'm sure all you moronic brownshirt fucks remember what happened there.
If I were you, I'd tell Unka Karl I want my pay in cash from this point on...
Not sure why quasi (quasimodo?) posted the old-news Fox memo. Did he miss "Big Jim" Thompson trying to cross-examine Clarke with it and getting his ass handed back to him? Quasi, read the transcript of the actual hearing and you will see this is not where the GOP attack dogs want to go.
Oooh, a lesson manners from Brownshirt H!
Guess the boilerroom has just plain given up.
A lesson in manners...
Gee, hat, it only took you three weeks to come up with a response. Stop obsessing.
Given the popularity here of labelling anyone who holds nonconforming
political opinions a "Brown Shirt Fuck"...
Errrmm. That's Moronic. Brownshirt. Fuck. to you!
Taint me!
If I were you, I'd tell Unka Karl I want my pay in cash from this point on...
dave
Word.
young hat,
you know if you included ricky's post that old hat was responding to, we'd propbably all agree that his response was measured and nuanced and you wouldn't be calling him a fascist. okay, maybe not that last part.
i mean, you've read ricky's posts, right?
(OTOH, he has a decent vocabulary for a twelve-year-old)
oh yeah, fuck bill frist. with santorum's dog.
"What will we tell the children"
This my friends is the question.
How will we be able to tell them that we allowed our govt to fail us.We will tell them that we were blind and that they shouldnt be that way.They will be told that our govt is/was a sham and that they should work to improve it.We will tell them that the land near the northeastern U.S. used to be New York/New England,but because we played politics with an event of such epic maginatude we couldnt find a way to work thru our partisanship,therefore we no longer go near that area because we couldnt learn the lessons of the first attack.
We will tell them that our govt llied to us and we bought it because thats what they've always done and we couldnt change it so now they have to live with our shortcommings and defects of our civilization.
They might be able to come back to us and say they forgive us and move ahead and forge a new type of government in spite of their forbears.
Shorter MBF:
We're not criminals! We're Republicans!
Yeah, baby.
Trolls. We've got trolls. On a thread about that reprehensible excuse for a human being, Bill Frist.
How fucking appropriate.
Let me say, though, that anyone who thought Frist was anything but a wholly-owned subsidiary of the White House just hadn't been paying attention.
Frist burned his cred as a decent person many months ago, and he's just gotten worse since then. It's really sad that the people of Tennessee don't seem to understand how badly they're being represented in the Senate.
I didn't know I was visiting a hate site. I feel so dirty now,
Am I simply too excitable, or is it a travesty that not ONCE in this whole news cycle has any reporter said plain and true that the administration is lying? They'll say that there seem to be inconsistencies in what the admin. says, that Rice contradicts Cheney contradicts Hadley, that the Preznit denies having a meeting with Clarke when several eye witnesses claim that it did happen, but never will they put 2 and 2 together and say that it adds up to a lie. The burden of proof is lower in a Murder Trial.
As political repression, verbal violence, personal attacks and thuggishly
ganging up on opponents are traits of fascism
Shorter hat:
He's calling me moronic! HELP HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!
Here is a link to thank Richard Clarke and send him a note.
http://www.advocacyinc.com/creat.../
actionpage.cfm
I guess Bush II ain't making it up on Mt. Rushmore like he planned.
We'll just have to rename all the urinals and call them Bushies. "Hey, Dad! Why do they call them bushies?" "Shut up, son, and aim a little higher."
BROWNSHIRT H:
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ATRIOS:
Be quiet!
BH:
Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
A:
Shut up!
BH:
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
A:
Shut up, will you? Shut up!
BH:
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
A:
Shut up!
BH:
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
A:
Bloody peasant!
BH:
Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?
the Preznit denies having a meeting with Clarke when several eye witnesses claim that it did happen, but never will they put 2 and 2 together and say that it adds up to a lie.
what about that shit? the WH said the meeting didn't occur. then "it propbably did happen." and frist accuses clarke of perjury, then says he doesn't know if there are any inconsistencies. what incredible liars. what traitors. how did our country fall so far?
what kind of moronic brownshirt fucks would want to defend them?
Hat, the Internet is a wild and woolly place. If you think these comment boards are bad, you obviously haven't spent a lot of time in far worse arenas.
I guess Bush II ain't making it up on Mt. Rushmore like he planned.
We'll just have to rename all the urinals and call them Bushies. "Hey, Dad! Why do they call them bushies?" "Shut up, son, and aim a little higher."
I love the part where Frist says Clarke doesn't have the priviledge to apologize for 9/11. They must be going mental to think that is smart politics.
CORRECTED...
Here is a link to thank Richard Clarke and send him a note.
http://www.advocacyinc.com/creat.../
actionpage.cfm
One thing about JMM's post, which I'll comment on here, since we're talking about it...
"If you recall last Sunday night's 60 Minutes, in which Clark first made his claims..."
Didn't Clarke also make these claims, more or less, in the Time article from August 2002? Wasn't it because of that article that Clarke was trotted out for the anonymous backgrounder, to refute what he had been quoted as saying?
It was laying around long enough for Al Franken to put in his book. Anyone who wonders why Clarke is "only now" coming forward, hasn't been paying attention. (Josh Marshall I've give the benefit of the doubt.)
"In his appearance before the 9-11 Commission, Mr. Clarke’s theatrical apology on behalf of the nation was not his right, his privilege or his responsibility. In my view it was not an act of humility, but an act of supreme arrogance and manipulation. Mr Clarke can and will answer for his own conduct – but that is all. "--Bill Frist
Are we to believe that someone in government does not owe the people an apology?Are we to accept this carrer kneejerker is not playing politics with words?I dont believe the goopers and the way they sling mud like it only hits their opponents.THis kind of stuff sucks.....BAD!
Sure, I can't find an appropriate thread, but I'll say it here:
Herseth's boinkability is off the charts.
Wow, dave, you geek. That's word for word. 
That's word for word.
Hate to disillusion you, but I didn't type it from memory.
Though I almost could!
Wassa matter, hat? Can't think of anything else to post about? You know, ON TOPIC.
It's obvious that the only thing keeping you going now is the fear of admitting to yourself that you ever supported this evil, moronic bastard and the lying, traitorous subhumans that he appointed.
Come on, give it up. Let it go. Really, you'll feel much better.
You know the Dems could put down a censure motion on Frist for lying to the Senate. He told them categorically that Clarke had told two stories and then when under the possible threat of libel proceedings admits that he has never seen one of the two stories and does not actually know if it is different or not.
Sure the courts cannot regulate Congress, that is up to Congress itself, in particular the rules committee.
The current plan seems to be to release a maliciously edited version of the document. This does not seem to be a sensible plan. The almost certain result would be immediate denunciation by the Dems on the committee saying that the Whitehouse extracts show a distorted picture. Then the press will demand the whole thing. The Bushies will claim 'national security' and resist publication tooth and nail. By this time the GOP will have given Clarke ample excuse for issuing a writ for libel and the administration will be in the position of fighting another pointless battle to suppress.
Meanwhile the Dems who know the contents of the testimony already will directly contradict the claim that the malicious editing is necessary for national security reasons.
The definition of a scandal is when the cover up attempts start spinning out of control and create more questions than the original issue.
The GOP dropped the O'Neil and Wilson prosecutions because they knew they would keep an issue they wanted burried at the forefront of everyone's mind. They would have dropped this one if Rove was in control.
Powell is clearly right that there is no conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy they would have got their lies straight in advance.
Powell and the other secretaries who were going to testify on oath could not be brought in because they could end up being asked about the conspiracy under oath.
Trolls are such delicate critters. We really should be more careful. Remember, If you haven't got anything nice to say...Wait, that's what got us into this mess in the first place.
Fuck you, troll, with a glass-shard- covered stick.
Besides, the drill sargents language may be worse. Get used to it.
I love the part where Frist says Clarke doesn't have the privilege to apologize for 9/11. They must be going mental to think that is smart politics.
In a media world not run by out-and-out whores, they'd be talking to some of those people Clarke apologized to. You'd think what they had to say about this would make "good copy."
Except for the occasional scummy troll, the Atrios comments are one of the comfiest places to hang out I've ever seen.
I wonder how much the administration's flailing about is going to make a difference. If you missed Clarke's numerous appearances you couldn't miss the government's frantic spinning. Anyone who pays any attention at all will have noticed, and it all points back to Clarke.
Perhaps they figure that most of the informed viewers are a lost cause, and they're only carrying out damage control for the ones on their side, or for the media.
hat needs another three weeks to think about it.
BTW dave, thanks for the link to the article about the "first post" phenomenon. I think it's cool that our guys generally do say "Frist!", but it might be time for somebody to say "Fist" instead.
Regarding Powell's "reasonable" statements on PBS,
Looks like typical good cop/bad cop
routine to me. The the Repub. attack
dogs were out all week. Administration
looks a little vicious in publics eye,
so they trot out poor ole' Colin one
last time to put a calm reasonable spin
on things.
OT, an unbleeped "did you just fuckin slap me?" on Jimmy Kimmel. More ammo for high horse bastages who let their kids watch tv at midnight.
The definition of a scandal is when the cover up attempts start spinning out of control and create more questions than the original issue.
Right. I mean, the Bushies could have said, yes, we considered terrorism important but not urgent, 20/20 hindsight, but look at Dear Leader now! And the idiot media would have went with it for a week and then reverted to getting in a tizzy over pretend Kerry quotes.
But noooooo. Now they are making the 20/20 hindsight argument and still going with the W as Terrorists' Worst Nightmare Action Hero storyline. Which of course the idiot media will still go along with to a degree, but it also means there is no way on earth this administration even with its fabled "message discipline" can keep its story straight.
Bunch of dingbats we have running this country.
OT, an unbleeped "did you just fuckin slap me?" on Jimmy Kimmel. More ammo for high horse bastages who let their kids watch tv at midnight.
Hat, that'a short for asshat, right?
sorry, thumbs here
Lying is an integral part of wingnuttery. Blaming wingnuts for their demented view of life is like blaming a vulture for feasting on the dead. If they were true representatives of the human race, they couldn't make the grade as wingnuts, and would be excluded from all horrific wingnut activities. Now they seem to have infected the members of the SCLM. This was proven at the recent "dinner," when the correspondents cackled along as W dishonored our fallen soldiers.
Sen. Majority Leader Bill Frist was certainly a loaded pistol that went off on the Senate floor this afternoon (by accident I’m sure but, really I would sure like to know which wondrous Dem congressman/woman it was that egg poor Frist into doing it – oh to be a fly on wall.)
In his appearance before the congress, Sen. Frist’s theatrical performance on behalf of Bush and company was not his right, his privilege or his responsibility and I feel fairly certain that had Rove been around he surely would have madly signaled for Sen. Frist to holster his big fire arm of a mouth BEFORE Frist had shot off all possibility that Bush and company could put a cap on this Clarke thing.
If Bush was bleeding after Clarke, he could will be mortally wounded after First pumped up the need for further and better evidence.
I wonder if Bush misses the good ole days when Trent Lott was Majority Leader? AND here I thought that "Lottie Boy" was stupid! Lott NEVER would have gone off half cocked like Dr. Frist. Rookie!
It's like Kitty surgery gone bad - that's what happens when you mess with an immoral science.
OT:
Thersites, I don't visit here often, so I'm trying to remember if you're the one who posted the hilarious response to the right-wing guy who is obviously jonesing for some homo-sex. You suggested that he try the other end or the middle (and you professed sympathy for his wife having to put up with him flapping his penis against her ankles). Sorry for being so late, but that was one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. Thanks.
If you REALLY read Clark's 2002 comments, despite his best efforts to sex it up, all he really says is that they had some meetings and decided they should develop a plan and do somthing....
Its the differences between thinking you need to lose a few pounds and actually exercising and watching what you eat.
Frist HAD to retreat! Consider:
He was making assertions that he could only make if he had viewed classified information (did he have that privilege?), AND he was also revealing something about it BEFORE it was de-classified.
In other words, the very assertion meant he was breaking the rules. Someone pulls him aside and points this out, and next thing you know, he switches his story.
Scum.
You know the Dems could put down a censure motion on Frist for lying to the Senate.
Oh, that would demonstrate once and for all that the ball's Tommy Boy's been playing with lately are his own and not the pair he borrowed from Howard Dean or Nancy P.
Of course, I think if they're gonna censure liars they should start with the one in the big white house.
A.
I almost hesitate to write this on the chance they take my advice... but everytime they up the ante on CLark, they keep the story is alive. If anything, the story is how they are acting now.
Go fuck yourself, hat. You fucks have ruined this country.
Check out Brooks in The Times on Clarke. Totally lame.
They have to take out Clarke now. If not, their warrior chimp campaign collapses, and Kerry has a huge club with which to teach the chimp how to dance for money later.
This was proven at the recent "dinner," when the correspondents cackled along as W dishonored our fallen soldiers.
TownDrunk
Yeah, wasn't that something. Our media cackling and hoo haaing over the deaths of over 6 hundred young men and women. Real funny.
Scum
Exit strategy for bush
OK guys why am I proposing an exit strategy for Bush? Well at this point there is only one way out that I can see. He has to speak to the 9/11 commission in person and at length.
Forget Rice here, she had her chance she has blown it. Lets start demanding to hear from Bush in person, in public and at length.
Get the Dems to start repeating that, drive the message home to the press, the smear campaign has gone way to far for a private chat with Rice to clear it up.
If Bush does not dare put his credibility on the line here, if he does not dare face the questions we will know exactly the kind of leader he is, the kind who hides behind his deputies.
Clinton was forced to testify on an issue that was trivial in comparison.
One other point to keep hammering away with. Will Bush grant pardons to his co-conspirators like his father did to the Iran-Contra criminals?
If you think about it Condi is not actually under penalty of perjury in the same way that Clarke is. If Condi lies for Bush she could reasonably hope that Bush would pardon her.
Ask now and the catagorical response will be easy to obtain. Bush has no choice but to comply. If he broke his promise after loosing the election it would destroy his reputation.
There is nothing that infuriates the denial drenched ego of an alcoholic personality (and Bush definitely has one)more than being confronted head on by a subordinate (or family member) who points out his lies and deceptions.
The alcoholic instinctively turns on that person with fury because without the lies and deception, the alcoholic is not only seen by others for what he is, but also by himself, and the denial based structure of his reality comes crashing down.
So it is good that Bush is driving this pathalogical attack on Clarke. It is sure to blow up in his face.
It's about time someone kicked the lying idiot's ass and put him in his place in full view of the entire nation. Thank you Mr. Clarke, I am proud to hold you up as an example of a hero and a man of integrity who put his country before self and all else.
Hey Hat,
Thanks for appointing old hat to represent the left wing. He really is mean isnt't he? I apologise for him . I'm glad there are no mean people on the right wing.
Hey Hat,
Thanks for appointing old hat to represent the left wing. He really is mean isnt't he? I apologise for him . I'm glad there are no mean people on the right wing.
I'm going to need some new curse words...the old ones just don't seem to cut it in our *current environment*.
I am equally troubled that someone would sell a book, trading on their former service as a government insider with access to our nation’s most valuable intelligence, in order to profit from the suffering that this nation endured on September 11, 2001.
I've read the book. It's not a "kiss and tell" - it's a "desperate wake up call". Ishmael got off the boat, but only to tell us how important it is to get the whale.
David Brooks jumps on the bandwagon today.
He gets down in the mud, while tsk tsking the Bushies for getting down in the mud.
News Cycle Manipulation....
Drop the nuke for the 6:00 pm news...cover your tracks later in the day when its too late for the media to adjust...and no one is watching.
You know the end will be near when Krauthammer diagnosis W as mentally unbalanced over this.
Billmon nails it again, here:
Now you see, I didn't have to declassify any sensitive national security documents, and I've already caught Frist in a false statement. Either he lied when he claimed to know that Clarke "told two different stories under oath" (which seems to me to be a reasonably good definition of perjury) or he lied when he told the journalistic stenographers that he "personally didn't know whether there were any discrepancies."
Clarke's testimony was a 'jump the shark' moment for wingers and the GOP. They're history but still around for a little while longer.
You can always tell when you've got a Republican beat in a debate. They suddenly start bemoaning the partisan atmosphere that's just developed.
let them all join in th party. let them ALL get their hands dirty. let's see how many birds we can take out with one clarke.
Josh Marshall reports that CBS was in touch with other witnesses to Clarke's encounter with Bush after September 11 who agree that the meeting did in fact happen. There are definitely still some unfriendlies at the top - Tenet, perhaps? Whoever blew the whistle on blowing Plame?
Julia at Sisyphus Shrugged links a Harold Meyerson op-ed which is worth a look if your capacity for thorough disgust isn't quite exhausted.
Skimmed the Brooks piece...to actually read it word by word was too excruciating...no words. Anyone read the recent article slamming his "Red America vs. Blue America" anecdotes as basically being imaginary? Why did the Times give this guy this forum??
Once more, we are supposed to believe that actuary Mr. Foster was only concerned about being fired?
More likely he was afraid of being found like another Mr. Foster and a certain Dr. Kelly.
Clarke must have recieved bad news from the doctor and decided to do the honorable thing in order to make peace with his notion of the Creator.
Too bad it wasn't before all the unnecessary bloodshed, but that's between him and who knows.
Despite all our eagerness, I don't think there's enough there yet. Because of the currently pathetic mainstream media, we still don't have a true "gotcha" moment. Bush and co. will still have to do a lot worse for the media to call them out. I hope this will do it, but I'm afraid not. How can we convince the members of the press that communicate to the masses that they must start reporting the truth?
Bought Clarke's book today at our local bookstore, which has been having trouble keeping it in stock. I haven't dipped into it yet, but my sister, who has, thought it was readable.
I don't think I've ever seen such an aggressive book tour before. Meet the Press, Federal Commission testimony, Larry King, Charlie Rose? Move over, J.K. Rowling. There's a new heavyweight in the book world.
BTW -
This....
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news...0&e=4&
ncid=1617
must be what got Novak thinking that Clarke has problems with black people...or did Novak get his intel from inside the WH?
Quick...call the FBI ....check the phone logs!
Too bad it wasn't before all the unnecessary bloodshed, but that's between him and who knows.
Salt Water
You can't during that process. He wasn't the president. In a situation like that, you can only voice your concerns at the time and then hope for the best. Later, you can come out about it.
Memo to the media hackies:
...but the Fuhrer was so kind to his dogs.
Ah...to pine for those early campaign
barbeque days...beer with the candidate
while conversing in the jet aisle.
You Snotnose Fucks!
NEUTER YOUR SPAWN
BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!
Salt Water, what would you do? On Sept. 12, as a terrorism professional say to the media, "I tried, really, really, I tried to warn the stupid SOB. Gawd knows I tried. But the stupid SOB wouldn't listen to me."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=...35110&
printer=1
Kerry is making a great move here.
He's challenging the Legion of Doom to prosecute Clarke if they know, in fact, that he lied under oath.
#1 It forces their hand. They either go through with it, thus keeping the story out there all the way to November. Or they back down from their claims, like Bush did about the Clarke meeting and Frist did about the Clarke discrepancies, etc..
#2 The challenge, in itself, is a way to keep this story out there. As we all know, as long as this story is out there the LoD is forced to play defense. And we all know how strong the Bushies are on defense.
You think Frist was agressive???
Wait until Ashcroft gets going on Clarke's Blockbuster movie rentals.
I understand that he paid late fees on at least two R rated films.
Good article here by Sidney "I am Atrios" Blumenthal:
http://tinyurl.com/36kgh
They never once asked me a question, nor did I see them having a serious discussion about it ... I agree with Dick that they saw those problems through an Iraqi prism. But the evidence, the intelligence, wasn't there.
-Donald Kerrick
It sure wasn't, Donald, it sure wasn't.
Actually, I wouldn't be too surprized if Clarke suddenly disappeared, and another prisoner suddenly appeared in Guantanamo. His high public profile is about the only thing that's keeping that from happening, but if Ashcroft weren't sick, they might have done it anyway.
I guess Clarke is so famous now, that they won't go the Gitmo route, and just slime Clarke in the press as much as they can get away with.
Clarke is intelligent enough to know what he was getting himself into. He knows he'll emerge from all this smelling like a rose.
It's so pathetic, I almost feel sorry for them...almost.
So is everyone a liar EXCEPT the Bush Administration???
Actually, he's way more intelligent than anyone in the administration or elsewhere so don't be concerned.
So is everyone a liar EXCEPT the Bush Administration???
You got it. Because the truth is defined to be what the monarch says. So if he says that monkeys can fly, then that ambling walk that the organ grinder's pet does when he reaches out for a quarter will now be called 'flying.'
Has anyone on the 911 committee yet to publicly ask why the Bin Laden family was airlifted out of the U.S.A. within days of the attacks?
If so, what was the answer? If not, why not?
And if not (to paraphrase Winston Churchill): "What kind of people do they think we are"? Don't they believe the American people can handle the truth?
Where are you now that we need you, Tom Cruise?
Yeah, boyeeeeee! The Chimpanzee Adminstration is goin' down like a ten dolla ho on my johnson!
Here's a snippet from the Meyerson Op-Ed I linked a couple of posts above:
But Clarke did receive a huge if unspoken acknowledgment on the morning of Sept. 11: National security adviser Condoleezza Rice declined to run the so-called principals meeting in the White House Situation Room, choosing Clarke instead to coordinate the urgent information-gathering and to formulate the security responses to put before the president. Rice repaired, with Dick Cheney, to the White House basement's bomb shelter. A hijacked plane over Pennsylvania was headed toward Washington, and the rest of the White House evacuated at full sprint -- with the exception of Clarke and a handful of security professionals, who remained in the West Wing to continue their work.
Just in case anyone's still wondering exactly how chickenshit our feckless leaders are.
Son-of-a-bitch. We may not need tinyurl anymore, boys and girls. Haloscan now tolerates dashes and who knows what else.
I'm sure this has been noted before, but it's news to me.
Has anyone on the 911 committee yet to publicly ask why the Bin Laden family was airlifted out of the U.S.A. within days of the attacks?
If so, what was the answer? If not, why not?
One of them (I think it was Roemer, but not sure; check c-span.org for the video) asked Clarke about this. His explanation was this: He got a request to let them leave, and checked with the FBI to see if they wanted any further business with those Saudis. FBI approved their release, so Clarke authorized their request to leave.
Dick Clarke: An army of one!
Mark my words, fools. That testimony he gave the other day? It's gonna go down in history with "I have a dream" and "have you no decency, sir" It's THAT historic.
And who the hell is HE?
Simple. He's just the fucker who saved our fucking country from a bunch of criminal madmen, that's all.
Dick Clarke: An Army of One!
Yep, it's been a bad week for Bush, and that equates to a good week for America!
I don't visit here often, so I'm trying to remember if you're the one who posted the hilarious response to the right-wing guy who is obviously jonesing for some homo-sex.
I wrote that at work after an especially boring meeting run by morons; my snark phasers were fully charged & set to stun. Thanks for the kind words!
Bad Jim, as long as the Haloscan fomatting goe belly up when someone posts a long URL (and I'm looking at you, Kyle!) we're still going to need tinyurl until everyone lears how easy it is to embed URLs as hyperlinks in the body of their comments.
Gee, if only someone would set up a web page where the oh, so easy way to embed a URL as a link would be demonstrated...
Bob Graham of FL says release it all.
Isn't he the obsessive compulsive who logs everything he does everyday, and takes notes like a stenographer.
If he says it's good to go, I trust him, release it all.
Go Dick Clarke.
Chris, dude, can you get me Jackie Chan's autograph?
Oh yeah, and fuck you, Dr. Frist.
Watching BushCo and its lickspittles in the Congress try to respond to Clarke's revelations is almost like watching a slow motion train wreck. On a daily basis, they are stepping all over their dicks and don't seem to know how to stop doing it. I'm sure they have no idea how this is playing out in the heartland. At this point, they are so lathered up that they don't care and would to go down in flames with all guns blazing (have I exceeded my quota for metaphors?). Let's hope they just do that (go down in flames).
"Yep, it's been a bad week for Bush, and that equates to a good week for America!"
True dat, yo. True dat.
Also, check out this dumb mothersucker here:
"In his appearance before the 9-11 Commission, Mr. Clarke’s theatrical apology on behalf of the nation was not his right, his privilege or his responsibility. In my view it was not an act of humility, but an act of supreme arrogance and manipulation. Mr Clarke can and will answer for his own conduct – but that is all."
Them's about the dumbest words a politician ever spoke. "How DARE he appologize!" Stupid ass shit.
I'll give it a try.
Soldiers buy their own body armor
So let me get this straight, the Legion of Doom pretty much gave the finger to soldiers (forced to buy their own body armor) and veterans (cutting their benefits) in a time of war.
Classy.
I'll challenge all those "chickenshits" to a bar room brawl. Never seen so much pussies in my life! The first one I want to kick the crap out of is Paul"ina" Wolfowitz. Love, Pichiflay
Has anyone on the 911 committee yet to publicly ask why the Bin Laden family was airlifted out of the U.S.A. within days of the attacks?
If so, what was the answer? If not, why not?
And if not (to paraphrase Winston Churchill): "What kind of people do they think we are"? Don't they believe the American people can handle the truth?
Where are you now that we need you, Tom Cruise?
Sovereign Eye | Email | Homepage | 03.27.04 - 2:00 am | #
Roemer brought it up with Clarke in the second round of questions. Clarke didn't really know the why of it, and didn't recall who asked, but figures it probably had to be Dept. of State or WH Chief of Staff. Look at the transcripts for details. No further public findings, AFAIK.
What's So Funny?
What's so goddam funny, George?
The "Liar" In Chief:
Damn, so much shit out there and the Dems can't capitalize on it..!?? All it takes is exposing "W"'s insider trading when the bitch was board member of Harken, or expose his dumb remarks while he debated Gore (remember nation building?), his pussy assertions that he would run a deficit only in time of war, economic recession, etc. (which no one has able to produce a transcript of), find WMD's(maybe up his ass). I can go on and on and the bitch still enjoys high ratings. What the fuck is the problem!? Lets roll and expose the "bitch"! Love, Orestes
The "Liar" In Chief:
Damn, so much shit out there and the Dems can't capitalize on it..!?? All it takes is exposing "W"'s insider trading when the bitch was board member of Harken, or expose his dumb remarks while he debated Gore (remember nation building?), his pussy assertions that he would run a deficit only in time of war, economic recession, etc. (which no one has able to produce a transcript of), find WMD's(maybe up his ass). I can go on and on and the bitch still enjoys high ratings. What the fuck is the problem!? Lets roll and expose the "bitch"! Love, Orestes
The "Liar" In Chief:
Damn, so much shit out there and the Dems can't capitalize on it..!?? All it takes is exposing "W"'s insider trading when the bitch was board member of Harken, or expose his dumb remarks while he debated Gore (remember nation building?), his pussy assertions that he would run a deficit only in time of war, economic recession, etc. (which no one has able to produce a transcript of), find WMD's(maybe up his ass). I can go on and on and the bitch still enjoys high ratings. What the fuck is the problem!? Lets roll and expose the "bitch"! Love, Orestes
hat continues to prove he's an BMF asshat.
Don't worry, hat. We'll remember your worthless little fascist ass when it's time to feed the ducks.
A little OT but funny; had an occasion to look something up in a dictionary recently, skimmed by the word "Shrub" - listed as "small bush". I knew that shrub was a snarky nickname for GWB, just didn't realize that is was also an appropriate metaphor. Regarding a post up-thread about the actions of alcoholics, do you think that if Bush implodes to the point of spontaneous combustion, the fundamentalists will be impressed by a burning Bush?
"Here's a snippet from the Meyerson Op-Ed I linked a couple of posts above:
But Clarke did receive a huge if unspoken acknowledgment on the morning of Sept. 11: National security adviser Condoleezza Rice declined to run the so-called principals meeting in the White House Situation Room, choosing Clarke instead to coordinate the urgent information-gathering and to formulate the security responses to put before the president. Rice repaired, with Dick Cheney, to the White House basement's bomb shelter. A hijacked plane over Pennsylvania was headed toward Washington, and the rest of the White House evacuated at full sprint -- with the exception of Clarke and a handful of security professionals, who remained in the West Wing to continue their work.
Just in case anyone's still wondering exactly how chickenshit our feckless leaders are.
bad Jim | Email | Homepage | 03.27.04 - 2:02 am | "
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they were HOPING Clarke and company would get wiped out by one of the planes...no witnesses to their total imcompetence.....
But Clarke did receive a huge if unspoken acknowledgment on the morning of Sept. 11: National security adviser Condoleezza Rice declined to run the so-called principals meeting in the White House Situation Room, choosing Clarke instead to coordinate the urgent information-gathering and to formulate the security responses to put before the president. Rice repaired, with Dick Cheney, to the White House basement's bomb shelter. A hijacked plane over Pennsylvania was headed toward Washington, and the rest of the White House evacuated at full sprint -- with the exception of Clarke and a handful of security professionals, who remained in the West Wing to continue their work."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
ac...anguage=printer
"White House, 4/01: Focus on Bin Laden "A Mistake"
A previously forgotten report from April 2001 (four months before 9/11) shows that the Bush Administration officially declared it "a mistake" to focus "so much energy on Osama bin Laden." The report directly contradicts the White House's continued assertion that fighting terrorism was its "top priority" before the 9/11 attacks1.
Specifically, on April 30, 2001, CNN reported that the Bush Administration's release of the government's annual terrorism report contained a serious change: "there was no extensive mention of alleged terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden" as there had been in previous years. When asked why the Administration had reduced the focus, "a senior Bush State Department official told CNN the U.S. government made a mistake in focusing so much energy on bin Laden."2.
The move to downgrade the fight against Al Qaeda before 9/11 was not the only instance where the Administration ignored repeated warnings that an Al Qaeda attack was imminent3. Specifically, the Associated Press reported in 2002 that "President Bush's national security leadership met formally nearly 100 times in the months prior to the Sept. 11 attacks yet terrorism was the topic during only two of those sessions"4. Meanwhile, Newsweek has reported that internal government documents show that the Bush Administration moved to "de-emphasize" counterterrorism prior to 9/115. When "FBI officials sought to add hundreds more counterintelligence agents" to deal with the problem, "they got shot down" by the White House.
Sources:
Press Briefing by Scott McClellan, 03/22/2004.
CNN, 04/30/2001.
Bush Was Warned of Hijackings Before 9/11; Lawmakers Want Public Inquiry, ABC News, 05/16/2002.
"Top security advisers met just twice on terrorism before Sept. 11 attacks", Detroit News, 07/01/2002.
Freedom of Information Center, 05/27/2002."
http://www.misleader.org/
daily_m...df03262004.html
Woof!
Doesn't Frist resemble a chimp, longer faced than the one bush looks like, but a chimp nonetheless:
http://graphics7.nytimes.com/ima...al/
pane.184.jpg
He sounded like a chimpanzee on the Senate floor today.
Shouldn't someone be asking the White House if Novak can release his source for the Plame investigation? I mean if they are releasing sources should they not say that they want Novak to release his source for a criminal matter of leaking a covert operative and endangering the life of a others in the field?
I think if someone asked this question the White House would have more egg on there face.
Despite all our eagerness, I don't think there's enough there yet. Because of the currently pathetic mainstream media, we still don't have a true "gotcha" moment.
"Gotcha" moments are for Perry Mason. They don't exist in real life.
Nixon stonewalled to the last minute, resigned, and never did admit culpability. I know people who to this day think Nixon was railroaded by nefarious forces.
Ollie North admitted lying under oath. He was dishonorably discharged by the U.S. Marines (not a notoriously liberal group). He's still a hero to many a bull goose looney.
And Joe McCarthy didn't crash and burn the moment he was asked "At long last, sir, have you no shame?" He faded from sight because of his antics in those hearings. The public finally saw their "champion," and the view was less heroic than akin to turning over a rock.
Don't wait for "gotchas." Bush is behind the "get Clarke" movement, and now he's been caught peddling a lie. But it's the accumulation that will do him in, and nothing alone will be decisive.
But it's Watergate again. He's sunk. Turn out the lights, the party's over. Like Nixon, another thin-skinned brittle, empty suit, Bush will prove to be his own worst enemy.
He simply isn't worthy of the office he holds. His own shortcomings will be his undoing.
The Republican party is a crime family falling apart because light it beginning to fall on its opperations. Frist must have something awfully big to hide if he's going so far out on a limb, declaring Clarke to be a perjurer on the very floor of the Senate without having read the evidence. He's either way too stupid to be a doctor or he's been up to something.
Sweep the whole rotten bunch from office, get those who are criminals in the dock and expose their relationships with the media whores. Howie, Mr. Conflict, Kurtz should be first in line.
Slightly OT. Has Gwen Ifell ever disclosed her friendship with Condi on her awful program? I can't usually stomach her and the four hookers she has on every week so I'm not sure but I've never heard it. Doesn't PBS have any kind of code of practice on this matter? She should be required to disclose it anytime her pal comes up. And the same goes for the rest of them too.
I"m sure it has been said before, but if Frist wants to declassify Clark's testimony, then I want to declassify Cheney's energy meeting records. Particularly, I want to know who the fuck wrote this country's energy policy. Anybody want to Lay a bet?
Just read the Brooks column.
Interesting. Lots of vague and glittering generalizations about Clarke's "shrill partisanship" (if Clarke was "shrilly partisan," then what was that Frist speech yesterday?), and one unsubstantiated reference to a Time magazine reporter's critique of Clarke's stories on TV.
I especially liked this part:
See Dick Clarke courageously take control of the government in the middle of the terror attacks! See him heroically lead a teleconference! Behold his White House conversations! Everything he says is farsighted and brave! Everything the Bushies say is incorrect. And he remembers it all perfectly!
I read the passage about Clarke's work during the terror attacks. He gives more credit to Condi than himself, and compares her to Clinton, with Clinton playing for the cameras, and Condi staying in the background to be sure the job gets done first.
And as for remembering it all, he had two years to write this book, and nothing he's said so far has been seriously challenged by anyone.
Brooks is completely worthless. He's shrill, partisan, and about as "intellectual" as Tom DeLay. He is an embarassment to public discourse (which is saying a lot, as the NYT still publishes both Safire and Friedman).
So Clarke is under threat of a perjury charge, but we can't put Frist under threat of a slander suit for what he said on the Senate floor?
Do we really think we can whup these rascals with both hands tied behind our backs?
How come Frum can sell a book, but Suskind and Clarke are profiteers? I looked up some of those words in my dictionary, but it burst into flames in my hands......
Ollie North admitted lying under oath. He was dishonorably discharged by the U.S. Marines (not a notoriously liberal group).
Would you have a source for this (the dishonorable discharge, that is)?
Ollie North made me ashamed to be a former Marine. If the Corps booted his ass out into the gutter--which I've never heard till now--why, that would change everything.
OT but somewhat relevant..
Wolfowitz, Cheney, James Woolsey, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle, et al. are the only ones I know that are still suggesting there is a link between Iraq and 9/11.
They believe there is this link because of the writings of Laurie Mylroie from the American Enterprise Institute.
Richard Clarke noted that Wolfowitz had cited Laurie Mylroie immediately after 9/11 as to why we should go into Iraq.
Laurie Mylroie also believes Saddam was involved in the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the crash of TWA flight 800 into Long Island Sound in 1996 , the USS Cole bombing, and the post-9/11 anthrax attacks. She also believes Saddam was involved in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing..
In other words, she is a nutcase.
So, the primary architects of this war have based their assumptions on the views of a nutcase.
I am surprised that this hasn't gotten a bit more press...
http://tinyurl.com/xfab
Goddamn it shouldn't have to be a goddamn struggle of money, time and energy to keep the bastards from getting us all killed.
"Old Hat is a frequent commenter here, and the fact that his comment went
unremarked and certainly unchallenged by the rest of the "atrios" dittoheads
taints each one of you.
hat | Email | Homepage | 03.26.04 - 11:57 pm | #
hey - hat....FUCK YOU!
i open up the thread, to what i think is called exploding troll heads. then suddenly they disappear. i like the trolls, in the same way i like to watch fox. it adds spice. any one notice how rabid they seem on fox these days, i mean more than usual. wish i could read those roger ailes memos in the morning. these guys are so fucked.
frist calling clarke out for selling his book with sensitive intell in it. wasn't this vetted with the WH. first? let me reiterate because i think this is the most important part about this clarke brouhaha, during the testimony he clearly states his motivation is he thinks the trumped up war in Iraq has seriously undemined the "war on terror"
drained off valuable spec. forces/resources from afghan.
opened a new front for jehadists. neos call this the terrorist fly paper theory. but some military professionals consider the troops as bullet magnets.
poured billions of dollars into a fiasco that could have been much better spent protecting the homeland(god i hate that term) nation.
you know trolls it's the white house playing politics with this whole deal. rove, and co. used the neo cons desire to attack iraq, to stir up patriotic ferver during the 2002 elections. and it worked. congrats. but i would warn this sort of fundemental perfidy has it's price. even then i wondered how this would all blow up in their face, and now we begin to see. i ain't pretty is it.
Open Request:
Does anyone have a good image of a chimp in a flight suit?
I really think that if someone had access to a trained chimp and a small flight suit they could really do some nice anti-Bush commercials.
(Picture if you will a chimp-in-flight-suit frantically searching the oval office mock up for WMD bananas.)
The commercial ideas could be endless..... hmmmmmmm
The left's favorite warblogger, Tacitus is going over to Scoop.
Hey... I found this at Hesiod's site and I thought I'd repost here. Interesting...
This is off the subject, but I don't know how else to communicate. I am an old dude who watches CNBC. They interviewed Kerry on Ron Ansanas part of the show (11:55 A.M. PST). Shortly thereafter Maria Bartiromo had a Republican/Democrat analysis featuring some asshole congressman from California who was a slick Bush shill against some poor old Kerry- supporting Congressman from Michigan. They were questioned about the Kerry economic plan, with the Republican spouting the party line uninterrupted for several minutes. Now comes the poor old democrat... He's about a minute into response and the Republican interrupts(rather rudely /forcefully). When the Demo asked to be given the same uninterrupted consideration the Republican said "I was told to interrupt on the ear phones". Can you believe it... they orchestrated this thing right down to when you should call your opponent an idiot.
Check it out. You guys are pretty adept at finding recorded evidence.
Don Beal
dick clarke makes me want to vote for nader
let me reiterate because i think this is the most important part about this clarke brouhaha, during the testimony he clearly states his motivation is he thinks the trumped up war in Iraq has seriously undemined the "war on terror"
drained off valuable spec. forces/resources from afghan.
opened a new front for jehadists. neos call this the terrorist fly paper theory. but some military professionals consider the troops as bullet magnets.
poured billions of dollars into a fiasco that could have been much better spent protecting the homeland(god i hate that term) nation.
Great post. Yep, this is the entire issue right here. The media is quaintly making this a 'Rice vs. Clarke' issue, and its simply not. The good thing is, Clarke has really just begun his book tour where he is focusing on this exact issue. For instance, he is on MTP Sunday and TDS on Monday.
Lets recap the jist of Clarke's argument. Really, the blogs should be focusing on this instead of the 'he-said-she-said' bullshit, because that is precisely what helps the Repugs the most in their current situation.
1. Shrub blew it on 9-11.
2. Shrub blew it in Afghanistan.
3. Shrub lied us into a war that had nothing to do with terrorism.
4. Going to war with Iraq took costly resources away from fighting real terrorism and increasing our homeland defenses.
5. Going into Iraq has actually made the world a much less safer place by polarizing the world against the US, inciting the nation of Islam into a global jhihad against the west.
As much as we'd like to continue to refute Frist or Rice, we really need to concentrate on what Clarke is saying. The Bush Junta is a complete catastrophe for world peace, and thats what Clarke is saying.
Hey Guy, I like to dress up my monkey in a flight suit...Then spank him.
Is that the same as The Chimp?
Has there been any numbers on how well the Bush in Flight suit doll has sold?
Does the administration's reaction in spite of all logic and truth remind anyone of O'Reilly's reaction to Al Franken's book? The administration takes the illness to a new level. I mean, at least O'Reilly was able to publicly acknowledge that he was wrong about WMD. Will this administration EVER admit wrongdoing in any matter, no matter how insignificant that matter may be?
The Repubs are simply losing it. They're going down, and we're seeing their desperation. This is their "Monica moment". It is looking like the truth will finally come out. Bush needs to be impeached for failing to do anything about 9/11 and for Iraq.
OT [Israel!]
Here and at homepage.
Well. It seems there was a Knesset confidence vote right near when Yassin suddenly had to be killed (there were also other reasons for the last attempt). It also seems that the volatility caused by Yassin's avenging-necessitation (there is no death in that ashtray: instead, there is the mandate for revenge) may have let Sharon off the hook for his (damned-unlikely-to-begin-with) Gaza pullout. Excerpt:
Is Sharon at all able to evacuate outposts in the new situation that has been created by the assassination of Sheikh Yassin? In any case, even if Sharon and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz decide to do this, the settler leadership, which represents 3 percent of the population but enjoys a strong lobby and an unlimited budget, will dictate the agenda both on the streets and on the barren hillsides.
Roemer brought it up with Clarke in the second round of questions. Clarke didn't really know the why of it, and didn't recall who asked, but figures it probably had to be Dept. of State or WH Chief of Staff. Look at the transcripts for details. No further public findings, AFAIK.
Public being a good word to use here.
Clarke clearly imputed that the FBI knows more about the BinLadens than they have said in public, and why they were allowed out of the country post-haste after 9/11.
He stressed this, in his testimony, that he KNEW the FBI KNEW plenty of what the BinLaden family was doing in the US.
Why? The inference for me seems to be that there is and always was a Bush/BinLaden family connection.
The Saudi government was "worried" that the public would retaliate against the BinLadens. Why? Because they knew they were involved? That is was Osama?
Lots has yet to break, IMO. That 28-page redaction about Saudi sponsorship of the hijackers is going to blow the lid off this when it is released.
Not that any Bush lovers will care. They simply don't care that their beloved leader is still protecting the people who attacked America.
Alex, this IS the 1970's all over again. We have impeachment on the horizon, scandal, coverups, outright lying by our president as he tries to coverup his lies, gas prices, wars all over the place and a shitty economy. Now who better than to oversee all this than the same party as last time!
OT
follow-up
Haaretz also has this editorial cautiously supporting Sharon's plan.
Will dems in congress let Clarke get rolled the way they did with Clinton?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Some democrat needs to stand in the well of the senate and call the slimers out this time.
time to fight fire with fire. smearing these republican cocksuckers is so easy. there isn't an honest one anywherte.
The moronic brownshirt fucks could see video of Bush blowing Osama and they wouldn't care. They're so fucking stupid it makes your eyes water. They're so goddamn stupid they wouldn't be able to think to breath on their own if it wasn't forced on them.
Jack-- the beautful thing is that the Democrats have had to do hardly anything here. The Repubs are being taken by their own dissension.
Why? The inference for me seems to be that there is and always was a Bush/BinLaden family connection.
The Saudi government was "worried" that the public would retaliate against the BinLadens. Why? Because they knew they were involved? That is was Osama?
Lots has yet to break, IMO. That 28-page redaction about Saudi sponsorship of the hijackers is going to blow the lid off this when it is released.
Not that any Bush lovers will care. They simply don't care that their beloved leader is still protecting the people who attacked America.
Monkey | Email | Homepage | 03.27.04 - 8:40 am | #
So what if the Bush family has had business dealings with Saudis?
Kissinger deals with China. Clinton deals with many countries. William Cohen, Albright, Berger, and repugs of many stripes too have business interests in other places.
Are you trying to single out Saudi Arabia because they are Muslim? You have a problem with Islam, do you?
Actually yes the Democrats must do something.
The Democrats need to talk about what Clarke is saying. Its really important that his message doesn't get drowned out by the stupid media-Rethug agenda, which is a 'he-said-she-said' argument.
Scroll up to my last post for a recap of what Clarke is saying.
The rightwinghacks such as Instapundit and Kaus continue to Frist their comments about Clarke--
all hyperbole and no facts--but unlike Frist --they won't retract or correct their original statements
pathetic and both of them have the nerve to comment on journalistic ethics potkettleblack
Are you trying to single out Saudi Arabia because they are Muslim? You have a problem with Islam, do you?
Actually its widely speculated that 9-11 was pretty much sponsored by elements in Saudi (certain princes) and Pakistan (ISI). Read Bob Graham on this.
SEN. BOB GRAHAM: I think there is very compelling evidence that at least some of the terrorists were assisted not just in financing -- although that was part of it -- by a sovereign foreign government and that we have been derelict in our duty to track that down, make the further case, or find the evidence that would indicate that that is not true and we can look for other reasons why the terrorists were able to function so effectively in the United States.
[...]
GWEN IFILL: Do you think that will ever become public, which countries you're talking about?
SEN. BOB GRAHAM: It will become public at some point when it's turned over to the archives, but that's 20 or 30 years from now. And, we need to have this information now because it's relevant to the threat that the people of the United States are facing today.
Phalamir,
I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid, stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original Big Bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. You are the epiphany of stupid to me.
Remember the pundits wringing their hands "What would have happened to Monica if she hadn't kept the blue dress?" "Clinton lied when he didn't think there was any proof?"
Well! "Bush lied when he didn't think there was any proof!" "What would have happened to Clarke if he didn't have witnesses?"
The way I see it 2 guys made assertions about what happened on 9/12/01. Corroborating evidence supports Clarke's version. The next time I have to decide who is credible in a he said/he said Clarke v. Bush, I'm going with Clarke. It's a no brainer. What reason would I have to believe Bush?
BTW: The CBS Evening News Friday night was devastating. It slammed Bush for false claims, attacking Clarke, joking about WMD. IIRC, The CBS Evening News is televised in battleground states.
The moronic brownshirt fucks are so stupid they think it's the same thing when they were sniffing Clinton's dick.
Sick of it All, frabjous pontification on the stupidity of Phallusmear will only guarantee that we read his comments.
Phalamir, Saudi Arabia supports terror on probably a much bigger scale than Iran (they've certainly got more money). This terror winds up killing Americans (and Israelis, and Europeans, and Arabs, etc). This is different from Kissinger's slimy slavery game he's running with China. We won't dispute the Rethug nature of the Republican DLC, though.
["the more you know" comet graphic]
"Would you have a source for this (the dishonorable discharge, that is)?"
Sorry to say my source is simply memory.
I recall North appearing at the hearings in full military regalia, something that reportedly had many members of the military, in all branches, grinding their teeth in anger. Don't know the protocols myself, but I understood from reports that North was out of line to appear in a civilian investigation dressed as an officer.
Based on the fact he lied to Congress (although his conviction for that was overturned on appeal), IIRC, the Marines booted him out. Again, based on my understanding, that's why North has never appeared again in military uniform, and is never referred to now as "Colonel," nor titled as "Ret."
Not hard and fast info, I know. But connecting my memory with the present, that's what I come up with.
This is off the subject, but I don't know how else to communicate. I am an old dude who watches CNBC. They interviewed Kerry on Ron Ansanas part of the show (11:55 A.M. PST). Shortly thereafter Maria Bartiromo had a Republican/Democrat analysis featuring some asshole congressman from California who was a slick Bush shill against some poor old Kerry- supporting Congressman from Michigan. They were questioned about the Kerry economic plan, with the Republican spouting the party line uninterrupted for several minutes. Now comes the poor old democrat... He's about a minute into response and the Republican interrupts(rather rudely /forcefully). When the Demo asked to be given the same uninterrupted consideration the Republican said "I was told to interrupt on the ear phones". Can you believe it... they orchestrated this thing right down to when you should call your opponent an idiot.
Check it out. You guys are pretty adept at finding recorded evidence.
Don Beal
hi, old dude, i am an old lady and i saw this too
I've got 224 more day until the election and then I will never deal with another moronic brownshirt fuck again, people I would cross the street to avoid.
Will dems in congress let Clarke get rolled the way they did with Clinton?
The Democrats would simply get in the way of the GOP implosion at this point.
Frist makes unfounded allegations and attacks Clarke for one of the most noble public acts in recent memory (certainly in recent American history).
Before the end of the day, he's forced to recant his statements that Clarke may have committed perjury, admitting he (Frist) simply doesn't know, but wants to find out.
Aides to the Commission, who've seen the transcripts, indicate there is no there there.
The White House has now acknowledged that a meeting it was denying took place, actually took place. As Josh Marshall points out, the only person who could have denied the meeting within the WH is the POTUS his own self. Obviously the WH doesn't want to pursue that line of assault any longer.
The David Brooks column is the final attempt to build bricks without straw. Brooks (clearly an Administration mouthpiece) never mentions one fact to contradict Clarke's testimony, and instead reaches for the weakest of critiques, obliquely (and without any specifics) accusing Clarke of "sexing up" his story for the media (and kudos to Brooks for sounding British with that turn of phrase, which we all know is the sine qua non of public intellectualism).
What do the Dems need to do, except offer ideas Bush can't critique (such as cutting the corporate tax; I don't like it, but hey, it convinces some that Kerry's not a liberal bomb thrower)?
The GOP is now it's own worst enemy, and the petulant man-child in the WH will bring the whole party down with his uncontrolled temper tantrums. Just stand back and watch, and act more serious than they are. That's all the Dems have to do, now.
"In a media world not run by out-and-out whores, they'd be talking to some of those people Clarke apologized to. You'd think what they had to say about this would make "good copy."
In fact, ABC News on Friday, March 26th, did find a 9/11 widower about Clarke's apology. Watched it with my own eyes after I nearly barfed watching Frist.
The widow directly contradicted that incredible asshole Frist. Said she was gratified by what Clarke said and that it was appropriate.
Democrats should refuse to appear unless the ground rules are clear
and every Dem who is a talking head should be trained in rudeness and interrupting --the necessary skills to survive in the media today
no facts are necessary --just channel Ann Coulter and you will do just fine
A copy of sumthin' I just e-mailed my esteamed Sen. Bill:
Dear Sen. Frist:
Leak, smear, and spin: The typical cycle of the Republican Smear Machine uses against the Bush Administration's critics. Shame on your advocacy of the "de-classification" of material just to smear Richard Clarke. Please don't wait until 2006 to retire from the Senate. Leave now. You're an embarrassment to the Volunteer State.
Can't we just get some goddamn people in there who will represent the best interests of the fucking people? That's all. No antics. Is that too much to ask for? Goddamn, is this fucking Mexico where they've had to have a dozen revolutions?
Terry Holt was just on Fox contrasting Clarke's apology (Holt said the apology crossed a line)to the White House's "tasteful" use of 911 images in commercials. The combination of audacity and just plain stupidity boggles the mind.
Re: Frist's ugly, pathetic words on the floor of the United States Senate --
any guesses as to who put him up to it? was it his idea?
The widow directly contradicted that incredible asshole Frist. Said she was gratified by what Clarke said and that it was appropriate.
I'd love to see a poll asking people what they thought of Frist's comments re: Clarke's apology.
Hell, I'd even pay for it. It would be worth it.
Attacking a man because he didn't have the "authority" to apologize. Yeah, that'll play in Peoria....
(where do they get these people?)
Terry Holt was just on Fox contrasting Clarke's apology (Holt said the apology crossed a line)to the White House's "tasteful" use of 911 images in commercials. The combination of audacity and just plain stupidity boggles the mind.
It does. But speaking as partisan yellow-dog ol' style Texas Democrat:
I hope they keep it up.
Re: Frist's ugly, pathetic words on the floor of the United States Senate --
any guesses as to who put him up to it? was it his idea?
And the first two guesses don't count. Especially if your guess isn't someone above the level of Karl Rove.
Dubya has a long, well-deserved reputation for vindictivness and never forgetting a slight. He's backed into a corner, and he's responding like a crazed wolverine.
This is coming from the very top. It isn't some minion gone off the reservation. This is Nixon redux.
WHITE HOUSE NEW SPIN- The Iraq war plans drawn up after 9/11 (now admitted) were NOT invasion plans, They were contingency plans in case Iraq interfered with our Afghanistan invasion. SAY WHAT??????
You have a problem with Islam, do you?
I certainly do. It's a nutcase religion which is nutty enough to convince people to commit gross violent acts in its name.
You don't hear Muslim leaders denouncing violence committed in the name of Islam. When confronted, they say shit like 'only God can judge.'
OK, how about this?
Clarke's testimony will be declassified just as soon as Bush's August 6th & all the other briefings that have to do with Al Queada & Cheney's Energy meeting notes & Cheney's anti-terrorist meeting notes (non-existant)are released.
Fair enough?
WHITE HOUSE NEW SPIN- The Iraq war plans drawn up after 9/11 (now admitted) were NOT invasion plans, They were contingency plans in case Iraq interfered with our Afghanistan invasion. SAY WHAT??????
MBF's will eat it up like mana from heaven.
Where did you see this? Thats funny, considering they were drawing up those plans before 9-11.
The CBS Saturday morning news was all over the bad week had by the Bush administration, from the commission hearings and Clarke to Rice's refusal to testify publicly to georgie porgie's comedy act to Frist and the declassification of information.
One guy said that the Bushies want it both ways. If they think it hurts Clarke, they want to declassify documents. Yet they won't let Rice testify because the classified info she would have to release might(!) hurt them.
Caught in a lie and spinning furiously. I can't wait until Monday. Did I read that Rice is going to be on 60 Minutes tomorrow night?
I certainly do. It's a nutcase religion which is nutty enough to convince people to commit gross violent acts in its name.
You don't hear Muslim leaders denouncing violence committed in the name of Islam. When confronted, they say shit like 'only God can judge.'
LOL, as if Christianity has a better track record.
read dave brooks...he's "joking" again.
WHITE HOUSE NEW SPIN- The Iraq war plans drawn up after 9/11 (now admitted) were NOT invasion plans, They were contingency plans in case Iraq interfered with our Afghanistan invasion. SAY WHAT??????
So the "WMD" didn't threaten the U.S., but did threaten the U.S. troops in Afghanistan?
Yeah, that makes sense. And Iraq, a weakened and defeated country, was gonna take on the world's superpower over Afghanistan.
What are these guys smoking?
magnum--your ignorance of islam is only outdone by your blindness regarding religious fundamentalism in general. Christianity certainly has a poor record in this regard: from pogroms to the recent ethnic cleansing in the Balkans all can be traced back to "fundamental" readings of the bible. And, of course, let us not forget Ireland were interpretations of christianity are its source of conflict. No, by using your criterion for nutcase religion, you must condemn all religion.
The person who put Bill Frist up to this is probably Bill Frist. Bill wants to be preznit in 2008, and he sees El Busho dropping the ball, the same way Busho has dropped the ball on EVERY SINGLE IMPORTANT TASK he's ever done in his life.
"I'd better pull this guy's ass out of the fire because his keepers sure ain't giving him any help! If I leave it up to Rove and Cheney, Kerry will be president for the next EIGHT years!" Why such a strong accusation by Frist? Frist knows "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, then blind them with your bullshit".
Let's not get into a he said-she said argument. The Republicans want to obfuscate the matter so much that everyone just throws up their hands.
Just remember:
1. Clarke says that Bush dropped the ball (again), and,
2. Bush attacked the man's character because he couldn't challenge the facts.
I'd like to know where you saw that too! It's just a republican bonfire and everyone is invited!
Kerry can just sit back for about 1 or 2 news cycles and watch them implode, Stadium style. Just leave the bonfire to burn on it's own while harping ONLY ON POSITIVES in your own campaign and let the repugs smolder and FUCKING DIE.
The boy chimp is behind all of this and wouldn't you know it, after the destruction of Watergate and Iran Contra you'd think that people would say WHAT THE FUCK, this has to stop. This MUST end and I'm not going to be a part of it...Mr. President.
My personnel director who is RABIDLY republican and a sean hannity/fox news junkie is saying this is all the Democrats piling on bush for anything they can find! Uh, the democrats have been on auto-pilot since before Kerry went on Vacay! They are letting this one drive all on it's own! She and I have been slowly engaging each other (I know, I must tread lightly since she is in effect, MY FUCKING BOSS) and will probably have lunch soon. She is cool with talking politics so I don't go all Franken on her, but slowly build, emailing her slightly un-biased news articles while she points stuff out to me as I noddingly accept it. She must be saved.
It's almost as if his re-election campaign is hoping for a terror attack if only to give him the ability to cancel elections.
They are THAT far gone right about now!
Bill Frist is a hypocrite.
His feigned outrage over Clarke's book as profiteering is laughable, considering Frist was chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee which authorized selling the photo of Bush aboard Air Farce One for $150.
What a cat-killing liar and shill he is.
You have a problem with Islam, do you?
I certainly do. It's a nutcase religion which is nutty enough to convince people to commit gross violent acts in its name.
You don't hear Muslim leaders denouncing violence committed in the name of Islam. When confronted, they say shit like 'only God can judge.'
yeah, you can't say anything like that about fundie christians.
That's the family resemblance of nut-case monotheism. It's all just a mainstream cult. Christianity in this country would do the same as the Islamists under the same circumstances and assault. I want to be away from the ideology of the wingers which is a fundamentalist mirror face of it. Any form of fundamentalism is nuts.
Oh, BY THE WAY!
Condi has reached the bottom of the barrel and what does she pull out? A corkscrew. Low is not low enough. NOW she goes on 60 minutes tomorrow night but STILL refuses to testify UNDER FUCKING OATH!
I'm still waiting for monday since, while still a rumor, there is talk that Colin Powell may resign over the WMD jokes. STILL only a rumor! I read it on, of all places, a YAHOO message board so the source is skeptical at best and a joke at worst...BUT...who knows
You don't hear Muslim leaders denouncing violence committed in the name of Islam. When confronted, they say shit like 'only God can judge.'
Actually, no, you're categorically wrong. There are plenty of moderate Muslims who emphasize the definiton of "greater Jihad" and preach against terror. Whether there is any reason to quote them in a fearmongering, rabidly pro-Israeli, racist media is another question. And, as cornfed hick points out, look at Robertson's support for crossworshipping bombers or doctor-assassins, to say nothing of Robertson's connections to third world terror states through his African diamond mines (or "charities").
Really, George Carlin had the best observation, that religion was the most destructive, hateful, anti-human tendency in history and should be abolished. {Our own meme is that religion is exactly like sex (cf qadishtu) in functional terms (too subjective and personal to be "used" to justify anything off the divan).}
The supporters of the Republican Trolls =attack, lie and deceive should remember the lesson of Paul ONeil ..of course being a trollete means never having to correct-
Christianity in this country is a cult but it's so big that it's not considered a cult.
i love how the zombie minions of "uniter not a divider" call any expression of disagreement hate speach.
god bless the no child left behing mentality for creating a generation of uneducated morons too stupid to see their own fascism for what it is.
"But Clarke did receive a huge if unspoken acknowledgment on the morning of Sept. 11: National security adviser Condoleezza Rice declined to run the so-called principals meeting in the White House Situation Room, choosing Clarke instead to coordinate the urgent information-gathering and to formulate the security responses to put before the president. Rice repaired, with Dick Cheney, to the White House basement's bomb shelter. A hijacked plane over Pennsylvania was headed toward Washington, and the rest of the White House evacuated at full sprint -- with the exception of Clarke and a handful of security professionals, who remained in the West Wing to continue their work."
Wouldn't this also make Clarke a civilian war hero - staying behind to run the situation room at great, gathering and imminent threat to his life? Wouldn't that also make the other security professionals heroes in the same sense. Why hasn't the whitehouse given these people medals or anything?
Why was everyone else in the administration hiding in deep holes in the ground?
Answer to both questions: lieing weasel putz cowards.
I've only recently become aware that Clarke stood his ground while Condi (she does what in this government again?) ran. My respect for Clarke grows.
didn't the excuse that mis-leader wasn't in the situation room on 9/12 fill you with comfort.
to paraphrase jon stewart - what the hell is the situation room for if you're not gonna use it?
Tinhat, I agree that there are certain fundamentals that shouldn't be overlooked during all the he-said she-said distractions. Here's one more..
FOREIGN INVADERS KILLED 3,500 PEOPLE ON 911 ON AMERICAN SOIL - ON BUSH'S WATCH.
Here's one more..
THEN HE GOES ON TO MAKE JOKES WHILE PEOPLE CONTINUE TO DIE LOOKING FOR HIS PRECIOUS WMD.
Countdown with Keith Olbermann did a segment on over used phrases like "like" and "at the end of the day" ealier this week. Maybe, we can start the snowball rolling on over working the title of George Carlin's next book, "When will Jesus Bring the pork chops?" It has quite a ring to it. It beats hell outta of "You're fired." or "running around with your hair on fire." I kinda doubt George would be as litigious as the Donald.
Clarke brings it up in his book. One guy who stayed there with them, all had them write their names down on a list, so he could email it out real quick, in case they needed to identify whose bodies were to be recovered from the W.H.
They ordered an evacuation of the W.H., Condi, and Cheney went to the underground bunker, and Clarke stayed up top, co-ordinating our response.
Yeah, these fuckers have picked the wrong guy to fight with this time. He has a big pair of balls.
When though is the damned media going to quit beating around the bush. They know the Bush people are lying. They have caught them in their lies. The press calls it "inconsistencies".
Out of the loop, in the loop, at all meetings, not at many meetings, didn't meet with Bush on Sept 12, did meet with him, no warnings of airplanes used as missiles, airplanes used as missiles.
The press says "inconsistent". That is not being balanced, that is allowing the lying liars to lie and not being punished for it. The truth, anybody remember that word? The truth is that the W.H. has been engaging in bold provocative lies.
Has the compliant press ever considered the fact that the reason the W.H. continuously lies is because the press will at worse call them "inconsistancies" when they are caught?
Rice is just a reflection.
bush=death.
he killed more texans than any governor in their history.
he dropped the ball on 9/11.
he sent our brothers and sisters to die in iraq.
and all he does is joke about it.
Yeah great everyone, assume I'm a Christian nut. Christianity is a problem for the US and is better off consigned to history, but Islam is a far larger problem for the Arab world than Christianity is for the US. Fundy stories notwithstanding.
Kei & Yuri, I'll admit I'm 'categorically wrong' if you link to a Muslim of some standing who denounces Islamic terrorism. "Plenty of moderate Muslims who emphasize the definiton of 'greater Jihad' and preach against terror" does not cut it.
Clarke is real.
Frist is a reflection. The entire administration is a reflection. Etc.
You know, I thought Powell's appearance on Newshour last night where he acknowledged that Wolfowitz was advocating action against Iraq that first post-9/11 weekend at Camp David (and note that at this very moment Fratboy/Chimp is once again holed u in Crawford -- how much damage could he have done to us all if he weren't such a lazy fucker?) brought to mind some long-dormant phrases from the 70s: "creeping candor" and the "modified limited hang-out."
How long will it be until we hear "inoperative" from Scott McLellan?
"Clarke brings it up in his book. One guy who stayed there with them, all had them write their names down on a list, so he could email it out real quick, in case they needed to identify whose bodies were to be recovered from the W.H."
Jeebus...respect-o-meter starting to peg...Jeebus.
Off topic, but part of a blogburst, which I hope Atrios will weigh in on:
A Defense of Open Trade responds to a growing blogburst: Matt Y, of the American Prospect and his own blog asks what pro-free trade people can do to build consensus for free trade. Kevin Drum, adds his thoughts on the matter and touches off an excellent discussion, featuring many top bloggers and sharp thinkers.
The skeptics are at Seeing the Forest.
"Clarke brings it up in his book. One guy who stayed there with them, all had them write their names down on a list, so he could email it out real quick, in case they needed to identify whose bodies were to be recovered from the W.H."
I had the same reaction when I first read this and the story that someone (was it Cheney?) kept hanging up on Clarke when he would try to call Cheney in the bunker.
Ordering the book today through A.
Ahram on Jihad
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:35:06 -0400 From: Juan Cole
http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2...552/
p4fall3.htm
Al-Ahram Weekly Online 20 - 26 September 2001 Issue No.552 Published in Cairo by AL-AHRAM established in 1875
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A forbidden alliance?
Does Islam sanction suicide bombings? Can Muslim and non-Muslim countries join forces when launching attacks on Islamic states? Jailan Halawi monitors a growing controversy
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Many Muslim clerics, while condemning the terrorist attacks against civilians in Washington and New York, have defended suicide bombings being staged by Palestinians fighting the Israeli occupation.
At a press conference on Monday, Sheikh Mohamed Sayed Tantawi, the grand imam of Al-Azhar, denounced the attacks on the US, describing them as "acts of terror directed against innocent people."
Tantawi argued that a clear distinction should be made between suicide attacks carried out by Palestinians against the Israeli occupation and those of 11 September in the US.
"There is a very big difference between terrorists and those who defend their land," Tantawi said. "We are in solidarity with the Palestinian people because they are right. As for terrorism, we denounce and combat it because it is a flagrant act of injustice against the human race."
Tantawi added that the Americans have the right to strike back "but first they must be sure they know who was behind the attacks in New York and Washington.
"What happened in the US is an aggression on innocent children, men and women. It was a mean and hideous act. It is the right of any country, Muslim or non-Muslim, to defend itself against such aggression."
Tantawi affirmed that countries found to be harbouring terrorists should be "punished and held in contempt."
Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi of Al- Azhar's Islamic Research Academy was quoted as saying that for jihad to be legal it must meet several conditions. Among them: a Muslim should not provoke aggression; should only fight those who fight him; children, women and the elderly should be spared. "There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad,"" he said.
Bayyoumi noted the attacks in the US are considered by Islam as being "unjustified terrorist acts." But he added that attacks carried out by Palestinians against Israelis are acceptable because Palestinians do not possess the sophisticated weapons that Israel has. Were it a fair fight, he added, "you would not have found anyone ready to carry out suicide bombings."
But other scholars strongly oppose suicide bombings, even those carried out by Palestinians. Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia Sheikh Abdel-Aziz Al-Sheikh was quoted as saying that suicide operations are "strictly forbidden in Islam" and that "one who blows himself up in the midst o
I've been all over that the Middle East. It's a very harsh place with a harsh landscape. The skies aren't even blue but a leaden gray without an overcast. They eat and breath Islam. You'll never change them. Let them sink into rural rot, quarantine them like we did with the old Soviet Union. It will take centuries of attrition against the West to change them, if ever. Move to alternative energy sources and forget them. They're lost.
Except maybe Egypt.
But other scholars strongly oppose suicide bombings, even those carried out by Palestinians. Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia Sheikh Abdel-Aziz Al-Sheikh was quoted as saying that suicide operations are "strictly forbidden in Islam" and that "one who blows himself up in the midst of enemies is performing an act contrary to Islamic teachings."
He also said that those who stage suicide attacks should be denied Islamic burial rites.
Another controversy is whether it is permissible for Muslims to cooperate with non-Muslims in launching attacks against a Muslim state. The controversy came following US statements that Saudi exile Osama Bin Laden, who lives in Afghanistan, is a prime suspect behind the New York and Washington bombings. Washington has requested the cooperation of nations around the world in having him captured -- as US President George W Bush said -- "dead or alive."
The US has said many Arab and Islamic states should make their position clear in case military action is taken against the Taliban -- which controls 95 per cent of Afghanistan -- should it refuse to hand over Bin Laden.
But Egypt's outlawed Muslim Brotherhood said in a statement that it deplores any US "aggression" against innocent Arabs and Muslims. "The Muslim Brotherhood, which condemns terrorism in all its forms, also condemns any aggression against Islam and Muslims, and any statements or steps against innocent Arabs and Muslims," the group said in a statement.
While condemning the attacks in the US, Sheikh Youssef El- Qaradawi, a prominent Islamic scholar, affirmed that Islam forbids its followers from fighting fellow Muslims.
In an interview with Al-Jazeera, the Qatari-based satellite television station, El-Qaradawi stressed that Muslims and Arabs should not act as "tools in the hands of the Americans." He said US "misgivings should not be a basis upon which we [Muslims] decide to engage in war against other innocent Muslims." If it is proven that Bin Laden is involved in the US attacks -- something which El-Qaradawi doubts -- "he should be handed over to a Muslim country where he can face a fair trial."
Sharing a similar view, a committee of Islamic scholars affiliated to Jordan's Islamic Labour Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, issued a fatwa, or Islamic ruling, forbidding cooperation with the US in any attack on an Islamic country.
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So what if the Bush family has had business dealings with Saudis?
You mean the Bin-Ladens, don't you?
I think most of America might find those business dealings interesting.
That 28-page redaction supposedly contains information about who was paying the 19 Saudi's bills while they planned their attacks on America.
I'm not singling anybody out when I say that.
Typical republicanism: attack the messenger, ignore the message.
On Oliver North:
North was allowed to retire. He did not resign his commission for the good of the service, which is the equivalent of a dishonorable discharge if you're an officer.
His ass should have been court martialed. I know of more than a few Navy and Marine officers who were more than overjoyed when this arrogant pissant was exposed as the mendacious disgrace to all who have served in uniform that he is.
This poltroon disgraced the uniform he wore as a prop in his congressional testimony; even criminal sack of shit Pointdexter had enough respect left for the uniform to appear before Congress in mufti; but not North.
"Clarke brings it up in his book. One guy who stayed there with them, all had them write their names down on a list, so he could email it out real quick, in case they needed to identify whose bodies were to be recovered from the W.H."
Who are these other people? I feel compelled to start pushing for some recognition - medals of honor? What's a civilian equivelent? No wonder Powell won't put Clarke down - must be really hard watching the "Great War Weannie" being contrasted to actual individuals of courage willing to lay their life on the line for their country - civilian war heroes. And then there are all of our men and women of the military giving so much including their lives and their blood. How can Powell stand this???
BTW, Ed Bradley is conducting the interview with Condiliar. What will Bob Novak say now?
You'll never seperate them from their beliefs and that's what it would take for this to end.
We're still working on getting kicked off for troll-feeding, but before our next response to the Moral Giant who seelks to Warn you about the Infernal Transgression of the Irredeemable Niggers, consider that statement reversed: has there ever been an American administration against terror? It amounts to the need for brown people to shut up and obey, and the shocking insolence they display in not volunteering to be our slaves.
Muslims against terror
Like most Canadians, Muslims recoil against those who appropriate the name of Islam to attack the innocent, says SHEEMA KHAN
By SHEEMA KHAN
Saturday, March 20, 2004 - Page A23
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The Todd Bertuzzi "hit" evoked much soul-searching across the land -- confirming the integral role of hockey in our national identity.
Outside Canada, editorials pilloried our game. While the brutal attack was universally condemned, there was disagreement about the lesson from this incident. Some saw it as an unfortunate manifestation of unwritten lines being crossed. Threats by Vancouver players, overlooked as trash talk, were carried through.
Most, however, saw this as an escalation in a series of violent incidents, combined with an ever-increasing level of acceptable violence. For them, the game has become unhinged -- transformed from a thing of beauty, speed and skill to an ugly parade of clutching, stick work and fisticuffs. Often, the most outspoken critics of the "Cherryfication" of hockey are the game's most ardent supporters. They will not stand by silently and watch the sport they cherish degenerate into thuggery.
Then our intense navel-gazing was jolted to another, far more dangerous reality: the mass murder of commuters in Madrid. The authorities point once again to al-Qaeda or its offshoots. Whether in Manhattan, Bali, Istanbul, Mombassa, Riyadh or, now, Madrid, the perpetrators are the same: cowardly animals deluded to believe they are fulfilling some grotesque religious duty by mowing down defenceless civilians.
Payback time, they argue, for the innocent civilians killed in Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, Iraq. The trash talk of the past has now turned into deadly reality. And with the accessibility of biological and nuclear weapons, future threats become unthinkable.
A certain amount of responsibility lies with those religious leaders who have blurred the line between armed combatants and unarmed civilians. From day one, Prophet Mohammed made a clear distinction between the two. Today, however, proponents of violence use dishonest logic to claim the absence of an "innocent" civilian.
Ordinary citizens -- by virtue of belonging to the state -- assume responsibility for its crimes. Collective guilt therefore implies collective punishment. Lest we forget, this policy has been used by successive Israeli administrations against the Palestinians, along with Middle East dictators, to silence opponents.
The perverse logic further categorizes Muslim casualties as "collateral damage," a necessary evil, for the greater cause of inflicting damage on the "enemy." This slippery slope has now led to a freefall of mayhem directed at anyone and everyone -- Shia pilgrims in Iraq; worshippers in Pakistan; commuters in Spain.
For Muslims, news of each such attack cuts like a knife. The emotional burden is threefold. First, th
The point may have been made somewhere above, but Clarke's briefing was made SEVEN MONTHS before we invaded Iraq. He could not have been more explicit in his testimony that going into Iraq weakened us. If we hadn't invaded and instead had focused more aggressively on Afghanistan, perhaps his opinion wouldn't be as sharp as it is.
For Muslims, news of each such attack cuts like a knife. The emotional burden is threefold. First, there is the sheer horror of witnessing the carnage of terror. Second is the knowledge that the perpetrators are Muslim. Third is the fact that in spite of arduous condemnations, they remain a community under suspicion.
Muslims know deep down inside that Islam nurtures mercy while encouraging its adherents to the highest standards of morality. If only they could disown the lunatic fringe who use it as an instrument of fear.
Then there is the issue of social participation, which for a community as young as ours, can be quite challenging.
While institutions have unanimously condemned terrorism, their statements have largely been unreported by the media. Activists often suffer burnout, due to the maintenance of a defensive posture in the face of constant negative media coverage about Islam. Some have become exasperated by the lack of credulity accorded to their sincere denunciations of religious extremism. Yet others are tired of having to always apologize for the actions of a few.
Giving up, however, is not an option. And so, a young, fragmented community continues to reiterate its abhorrence of mass murder.
Mosque sermons, religion study circles and community lectures are used as platforms to reaffirm the sanctity of life as central to Islamic teachings. Even Arab satellite channels broadcast 30-second spots reminding Muslims of this central tenet.
There are also individuals who stand out for integrity at times of difficulty. One such example is Laura Zajchowski, a PhD candidate in the Department of Biochemistry & Molecular Biology at the University of Calgary.
A Muslim community activist who has written and spoken out against terrorism, she concedes that "at times, it feels like an exercise in futility. No matter how many times you speak out, there is an assumption of guilt by association." Nonetheless Laura is certain of the long-term benefit for each action -- no matter how small -- taken to condemn terror.
She believes that it is the substantive hard work at the grassroots level that will actually constructively guard against terrorism. This work, which largely occurs beneath the radar of the media, is something far more precious than media public relations. These are the individuals who spend their time and money supporting mosque open houses and tours, speaking to interfaith groups, companies and community associations, liaising with the police and civic institutions, or simply speaking with their colleagues, neighbours and friends. Much of this dialogue is directed at getting out the message that Muslims and Islam do not support terrorism.
Laura has given considerable thought to development from within, pointing to many who are working to establish morally and intellectually viable institutions, aiming to work with youth, or working to establish social services to help families and communities. She adds: "All of
She adds: "All of this work is as important as any other when it comes to fighting terrorism in all of its forms by vaccinating against ignorance, lack of spirituality, lack of morality and ethics, and the abusive environments that make our youth vulnerable to extreme ideologies of all stripes. Such initiatives also aim to encourage them to become responsible individuals, active servants of God striving to improve Canadian society." Such diversity of action reflects the spontaneity and dynamism of ordinary people to do what they can to reverse a deteriorating situation.
Nonetheless, Laura -- along with others -- recognizes the need to raise the volume. "And even if it's not fair, we do have to condemn these things over and over again, and be very vocal due to the situation we are placed in," she says. But how best to get the message across to the wider Canadian public that Muslims stand in solidarity with humanity everywhere against such evil? In addition to the grassroots initiatives, there have been suggestions to hold a large-scale peaceful demonstration by all Canadians -- including Muslims -- against terrorism. A coalition of the peaceful.
Laura's reaction? "I would love to see and be a part of such a powerful expression." Knowing the grassroots dynamism across this land, good things are indeed possible.sheema.khan@globeandmail.ca
That's why I think it's futile. You can't talk people out of their beliefs, however obviously wrong. Bush still has, like, 50% support, although he should have been stomped to death by now. Beliefs have to burn themselves out. Unfortunately for us, these are huge belief systems so we will all suffer. Like I've written before, I've got 224 days left. I'm hanging in there to the end, but regardless, there's a fire coming and it will consume everything.
Heads up.
You'll never seperate them from their beliefs and that's what it would take for this to end.
Inherently dirty niggers, who will never stop hating us until we clean the earth of them! Unless, of course, their desperation comes from tangible and fixable economic sources. Unless, of course, any violence at all is being done to them and giving them reason to hate their attackers...
Kei,
Don't post long stuff like that.
If you have to, get your own blog. They're free.
I just ignore long posts of newspaper article.
Links are fine.
what about the FBI? Doesn't anyone wanna know what fromer Republican judge and FBI chief through August '01 has to say?
phoenix memo, anyone? colleen rowley?
> and the fact that his comment went
unremarked and certainly unchallenged by the rest of the "atrios" dittoheads
taints each one of you.
You know things are looking grim when the trolls start taking the high road.
Just the other day we deliberately upheld the Israeli right to murder innocent bystanders, commit terror and defy internatiuonal law. How can SOIA afford no choice but extremism and then whine about how extremism is all these people are good for? It's the only hope they are allowed! If you deny people the means if peaceful dissent, you demand violence. Look at the actual practices of the terrorists-gettig drunk at stripclubs, coming up with a system of "indulgences". There's nothing truly Muslim about them.
And don't quote us a poll about 50% of people, asked over a phone whether they hate Amurca, supporting Bush. If it were accurate why are his rallies so small and well-insulated?
Phalamir,
I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid, stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original Big Bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. You are the epiphany of stupid to me.
Sick Of It All | Email | Homepage | 03.27.04 - 9:11 am | #
LOL!
"But Clarke did receive a huge if unspoken acknowledgment on the morning of Sept. 11: National security adviser Condoleezza Rice declined to run the so-called principals meeting in the White House Situation Room, choosing Clarke instead to coordinate the urgent information-gathering and to formulate the security responses to put before the president. Rice repaired, with Dick Cheney, to the White House basement's bomb shelter. A hijacked plane over Pennsylvania was headed toward Washington, and the rest of the White House evacuated at full sprint -- with the exception of Clarke and a handful of security professionals, who remained in the West Wing to continue their work."
This is what Cheney meant when he said Clarke was "out of the loop", don't you see? Two WTC towers were down; Pentagon was hit: a plane was coming from Pennsylvania toward the White House.
Everyone in the know knew. Cheney and Condi were in the WH bunker and Bush was base-hopping and this stupid Clarke was running the situation room, when a plane was coming his way. How stupid could you get? He was "out of the loop" indeed. That's what Cheney meant.
Way to swamp the thread k&y. I was genuinely hoping for some names. Five names, fives lines of text, including the position each leader occupies since Muslim leaders don't get publicised much.
And don't quote us a poll about 50% of people, asked over a phone whether they hate Amurca, supporting Bush. If it were accurate why are his rallies so small and well-insulated?
kei & yuri
Because "wingers", or whatever term they're called, know or sense, they're being pushed out. The way things are going, they'll lose. Their only choice is to bring it all down and hope they continue on top. And that's only one of the huge ideologies.
robert jeffers is right the democrats don't have to do a damn thing and shouldn't. especially since most of them are incompetent when it comes to playing hardball.
condi will be on 60 mins. tommorow. clarke will be talking with little timmie on MTP and then that bombastic blowhard chris mathews on mon. that will no doubt point up all that needs be said. i don't see indictments either way in any of this. but as i keep saying, true or, not true, clarkes assertions are important because they hi lite how IRAQ has "seriously undermined the war on terror"
what i want to see is some indictments handed down for the plame affair. it is one thing to ravage a persons character in politcal gamesmanship, we know this is how this crew opperates, clarke knew too. it is quite another thing to break the law, damaging the very effort the repugs. sanctimoniously act as if, is their own.
sick of it all that was a great description of stupid. use that on repugs.
On some reptile level, they're bringing it all down hoping they'll emerge on top. It's more complicated than that, but that's basically it.
bystander, that is good reporting. What is your quote from? I feel "out of the loop" myself since I'm coming so late to this thread.
sick of it all, what do you mean? I've not been 'all over the middle east' but I've been several places. I don't recall the 'leaden skies' -- but I do recall the incredible warmth of the people, Muslims, Jews and Christians.
It is true that a lot of the people who Speak for God are unrefined pillars of shit, but it is also true that they have always been a minority. Ashcroft is to the right of his own party and terrifies a lot of Repubs. The idea that these people, who define themselves by their insane inherent victim status ("white cops are the real victims of police beatings"), are "sensing a threat" is not much of a point. They go through life sensing perpetual threat.
streaker, i don't remember where i saw it but i can confirm bystanders account. and i think it was condi who left him in charge, while the snivelling cowards ran and ducked for cover. actually from a nat. sec. standpoint it makes sense but they are still snivelling cowards.
The birthplace of the Dark Cloud Of Islam is a very harsh environment. The rocks, sand and sky are tortured and harsh. Go to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, and look around and look up. That's where all monotheism comes from. The Middle East. Nothing good comes from there.
I would rather my ancient Viking religions my ancestors once followed; Druids and all. What's wrong with that? I don't give a crap about the Middle East.
And I would rather my Native American Cherokee ancestors mingled with those European ancestor's religion.
Thoughtful attacks on the success Political Islam has enoyed in dictating the policies of several nations, or the differences between kinds of Islam, or the stupidity that is religion, are one thing. Dismissing that region because of its present strife is silly, it has no use. We call the place an "ashtray" because war has made it so when peace could make it something different, not because there can never be any hope (is that Yahweh on violin?). And how many other places could we really attack like that? Korea is a beautiful place, but screw it, its people are no good, its rocks are too craggy.
Except for Jews, right, Sick of it all? "Nothing good comes from there"? Except for trade and irrigation and law and oil? What use is this kind of thinking? Why not just bomb them all into ash?
We had been accusinf them of racism by a kind of not obvious, analytical tack, but hey, if SOIA honestly thinks his woman-hating Vikings and human-sacrificing Druids were so kewl, we leave it to others to figure out how to write in runes on Haloscan. Incidentally, there are enormous similarities between the power-hording, woman-hating, war-mongering priest-caste of all most of the old cultures (the Brahmin in India, the Levites in Israel, the Druids in Europe, etc). They all claimed to originally be a separate tribe, fueling theories about a kind of "single source" of partriarchalism. But it's a mistake to imagine that if x had been in y's shoes they would be immune to y's temptations; in these noble savages there was plenty of barbarity that wasn't pure Crossworshipping propaganda (although it was spun that way). It is never so simple as this racist pedantism.
Except for Jews, right, Sick of it all? "Nothing good comes from there"? Except for trade and irrigation and law and oil? What use is this kind of thinking? Why not just bomb them all into ash?
kei & yuri
No, I'm just sick of the Middle East. I don't want to hear Middle Eastern accents anymore after 911. I've been all over it and it's just one big huge bunghole of a place. Nothing to see and no reason to visit and that's where all the religious strife comes from. That's all.
I'm from Europe and the native people of this country.
God knows there's no terror or annoying accents in Europe.
We were wrong in claiming to be able to find a "major Muslim leader" who is categorically against all terror. Stupid of us, since klansboy was trying to frame things in terms of whether or not the nigger bitch would stay still and quit struggling and we walked right into the trap. Why does America always ask for peace from other people while trying to kill them? Does the McNamara Naivete ever stop?
Yeah, but we've had time over many years to get used to annoying accents from Europe. But suddenly, every where you turn on anything, there's a Middle Eastern accent, either an expert on terrorism or threatening your death, all in the name of their Middle Eastern God.
I want my Native American God. That's my heritage.
My, NAG.
BWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!
Can I have my God back?
Clark was brilliant at the 9/11 commission hearings.
In his 30 years of service in the upper rungs of the national-security apparatus, Clarke was such a formidable player of bureaucratic politics precisely because he combined eloquent advocacy and shrewd tactics.
This guy is a heavyweight player.
Clarke is so right about Bush...
The vehemence with which the Bushies have attacked Mr. Clarke's motives brings to mind the old lawyer's joke: When the facts are with you, pound the facts. When the facts are against you, pound the table.
Why are the Bushies pounding the table so hard? Because confirmation of Mr. Clarke's basic accusations comes from none other than Dubya Bush himself.
Steve Coll's new book 'Ghost Wars', on the CIA in Afghanistan, describes Clarke as “a shadowy member of Washington’s permanent intelligence and bureaucratic classes . . . who seemed to wield enormous power precisely because hardly anyone knew who he was or what exactly he did for a living.”
Clarke worked his way up to become President Clinton’s terrorism czar in 1998, where he began his crusade: “Clarke declared that
America faced a new era of terrorist threats for which it was woefully unprepared.”
In an interview, Coll says Clarke’s status was extraordinary: “He’s an amazing figure in that way. He rose effectively to Cabinet rank.”
From that job, Clarke put Osama bin Laden in his crosshairs and “sometimes pushed harder for action on bin Laden than the CIA’s own officers recommended.”
This guy is a heavyweight player that when hit will hit back smarter and harder !
Do you stupid nuts go blaming Christianity as a "monotheist" religion, for it aint! It believes in a trifecta -- The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. Whence the "mono"theism?
Islam OTOH is the true monotheist religion. It is based on ONE book, and believes in ONE God Allah the merciful. Rest of the claimants of monotheism are impostors.
Now, we believe what we believe in (Holy Koran). When it comes to our faith, are you gonna tell me I shouldn't believe in the word of God? Are you gonna tell me that any statement in the Koran the word of God is wrong?
If you want to believe in disbelief, fine with me. Dont force your shit on me.
Do you stupid nuts go blaming Christianity as a "monotheist" religion, for it aint! It believes in a trifecta -- The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. Whence the "mono"theism?
Seems your monotheism is all over me, these days. I want my heritage back. I reject your Middle Eastern beliefs!
In his 30 years of service in the upper rungs of the national-security apparatus, Clarke was such a formidable player of bureaucratic politics precisely because he combined eloquent advocacy and shrewd tactics.
This guy is a heavyweight player.
The vehemence with which the Bushies have attacked Mr. Clarke's motives brings to mind the old lawyer's joke: When the facts are with
you, pound the facts. When the facts are against you, pound the table.
Why are the Bushies pounding the table so hard? Because confirmation of Mr. Clarke's basic accusations comes from none other than Dubya Bush himself.
Steve Coll's new book 'Ghost Wars', on the CIA in Afghanistan, describes Clarke as “a shadowy member of Washington’s permanent intelligence and bureaucratic classes . . . who seemed to wield enormous power precisely because hardly anyone knew who he was or what exactly he did for a living.”
Clarke worked his way up to become President Clinton’s terrorism czar in 1998, where he began his crusade: “Clarke declared that
America faced a new era of terrorist threats for which it was woefully unprepared.”
In an interview, Coll says Clarke’s status was extraordinary: “He’s an amazing figure in that way. He rose effectively to Cabinet rank.”
From that job, Clarke put Osama bin Laden in his crosshairs and “sometimes pushed harder for action on bin Laden than the CIA’s own officers recommended.”
This guy is a heavyweight player that when hit will hit back smarter and harder !
My entire adult life I've had to be careful, because I'm gay, of a religious zealost with a gun, which I've had to avoid in the past. Now I have to be careful--how can you be-- of a true believer flying over in a 'crop-duster' spraying me with chemicals or irradiating my on the road on my way to work. Take your monotheism and shove it up your asshole.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq/1.htm#1
Well well well so the entire Koran is the word of your God, the "merciful"?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina40121.htm
Is that why it says in your book (Koran 9:5) to kill the infidels wher ever you find them?
If you want to believe in disbelief, fine with me. Dont force your shit on me.
Phalamir
Guess what freak: There ain't no God.
And Mr. Jeffers can ignore it all he wants but there aint no God.
There aint no God.
Ha, imagine that.
the problem is NOBODY and I do mean
NOBODY asks Shrub if he did meet with Clarke after 911 and if he did, what was his recollection of that meeting.
the mainstream press has gone to HELL long time ago.
snoopy, here's what scottie said on Monday at the press briefing:
Q Scott, this morning, you said the President didn't recall the conversation in the Situation Room on September 12th that Mr. Clarke said he had, where the President asked Dick Clarke three times to pursue links between 9/11 and Iraq. And you said he doesn't -- I had two questions. So did the President tell you or somebody in the White House over the weekend, he doesn't recall?
MR. McCLELLAN: Yes, I talked to him. He doesn't recall that conversation or meeting.
Q And that was -- he said it this morning, or this weekend? When did he say that?
MR. McCLELLAN: Well, this weekend and this morning, yes.
Q Okay. And secondly, Clarke now says that he has three eyewitnesses, and he repeated it again this morning, and he named them -- to the conversation.
MR. McCLELLAN: Let's just step backwards -- regardless, regardless, put that aside. There's no record of the President being in the Situation Room on that day that it was alleged to have happened, on the day of September the 12th. When the President is in the Situation Room, we keep track of that. But put all that aside, let's go to the heart of the matter. This was supposedly the day after the September 11th attacks. And, of course, you want to look at all possibilities of who might be responsible. It would be irresponsible not to consider all responsibilities.
(My emphasis.) Of course, now the White House is saying the meeting probably occurred, because the other people that were present have verified that the conversation did, in fact, take place.
georgie hasn't yet responded to this AFAIK. Since when does he respond to anything that's a bit troublesome involving his credibility? That's what his lackeys are for. They screwed up royally though.
Read the whole transcript if you haven't already. The lies just keep coming.
Those of you who are saying it's a good thing the Democrats are taking a back seat here & not doing anything to divert attention from Richard Clarke because they're incompetent, incapable of playing hardball, and "would only get in the way"...well, you may be right.
But somehow, that doesn't strike me as something to be happy about. Call me picky, call me hard to please, but to me, this is a front-row seat to despair. Honestly, what does it say that we can count on the occassional Republican with honor like Mr. Clarke before we can on that collection of spineless, self-serving incompetents in the DNC? Or the more openly corrupt DLC? Good for Clarke, but apart from his impeccable conduct, I just can't find anything to cheer about in this scenario.
John D., have you been paying attention since the '80's with Newt's crowd shooting off their big mouths? WTF good would it have done to have the dems screaming about everything that's been done by the rethugs (the dems have not been totally silent) when they did not control the House or the Senate? Several months ago, Barney Frank said that of course the dems had issues, but since they weren't the ruling party, it was very hard to get anyone to listen; they just weren't getting the coverage.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm 52, and I was sick of the fighting that has gone on. I'm sorry the dems couldn't find a way around it, except to say it was hard to do so under Clinton, and harder still after 9/11.
They've come out of this looking like the grownups, and if that's not good enough for you, well, I'm sorry. But I truly believe it would have been a lose/lose situation if they'd staged a revolt. Many people aren't as well-informed as people on blogs, and they certainly don't look at it the same way we do. Their perspective would have been influenced by the bias that's clearly present in the mainstream media, and you know it.
If we win in November, and I'm confident we will, maybe then you'll realize that the dems played it the better way. And if you've been listening to what many of them have been saying lately, the gloves are off. I can take a good fight for 7 more months, as long as the issues get covered.
yea i said that. here is why.
republicans are base, ignorant people (not all but the majority) they don't care about the facts they only care about the power. it's very hard to have a logical argument with someone not willing to regard ALL the facts. repugs, choose the facts they like and pound it like a tough piece of meat. don't believe me watch that monkey brow sean hannity sometime.
further, i would bet most of the types that frequent this site would not really care for mr. clarke. i'm not trying to impugn his motive which i actually think is honest and heartfelt and most importantly accurate that is INVASION OF IRAQ HAS SERIOUSLY UNDERMINED WAR ON TERROR. he is a smart man. well i could say more but lets just end here by paraphrasing a qoute from whom i can't remember:
"never fight your enemy when he is busy killing himself."
and thinking of my last sentence, sick of it all, hang it up. this country was founded on the principle of religious tolerance. my own belief is, no belief is good belief, and good belief is the worst kind of all.
you certainly are not going to change any minds with your argument that there is no god. because, 1. you don't know and 2. they do. having said that remember, no advice is good advice, and good advice is the worst kind.
hurn...
now Phalamir's pretending to be a Muslim...
but see, it's easier to explain to children why God wants us to kill people who are different than us and have things that we want, than it is to explain oral sex to them.
No parent should ever have to do that.
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