I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
First!
first
jk
third
To really be first at anything, you gotta be anonymous.
OT - great stuff on Air america radio right now.
I doubt that Kay is a reformed true-believer; I don't think such a beast exists. TBs stay that way, isn't that the point? The pissed-off insiders like O'Neill and Clarke who've gone public are definitely not from that group.
Of course some wingers do believe. Those are the ones who can be dangerous as they usually want the president to go even further to the right( Michael Savage).
Anybody have a good David Kay link? I'm not up to speed on this guy.
Disclaimer: I have to leave in a few minutes, and may not be able to read it till later, so if anyone has one, please accept my thanks now.
To follow up a bit more, assuming Kay was not a TB all along, it would seem that when he was backing up the Chimp he was simply whoring.
I'm more inclined to believe in whores reforming than TBs...
My sense is that the Clarke firestorm has signaled that, while the Bush administration will come down on dissenters like a ton of bricks, the media now will pay attention to truthtellers about the Bush mendacity. There is a certain momentum now, a bit of a brotherhood that can only serve to encourage those who have the honor to want to speak out.
I think both powell and kay were true believers. I'd like to believe that, or its just all fubar.
My denial will fade.
Sinbad sez:
Of course some wingers do believe. Those are the ones who can be dangerous as they usually want the president to go even further to the right( Michael Savage).
M.S. is just a modern, twisted version of a court jester. "Will generate spittle and dehumanize others for a fat paycheck." He's just the pus that oozes from the injured decency of the right.
Well, but he was official then and he's private now.
Clarke did the same, after all, though to a lesser extent.
The pressure to toe the line is intense, and there is also the personal matter of institutional loyalty. You want the job, you stick with the boss in public. You don't want to stick with the boss in public, you leave.
The only point I think needs to be reinforced is that you can't impeach testimony from a former employee with their statements when they were inside. The good news is, it seems like the large majority of people understand this.
My take is that he's got some intellectual integrity, but still feels loyalty to Chimpibus Rex. Just a gut feeling, really--I haven't done a lot of research on the guy. At this point, I'm surprised by anyone connected to BushCo who admits the emperor might not be fully clothed.
Kay, I believe, was a true believer. He drank that kool aid but was able to spit it all out before it killed him. Powell wasn't a true believer, but because of his job, he drank the kool aid so that he could play with cool kids. Unfortunately, he didn't spit out the kool aid -- thus it's destroyed any credibility that non-believers had in him.
I think both powell and kay were true believers.
I think they both must've had severe doubts but gambled that something, anything, would turn up in Iraq. Kay at least can now position himself as a truth-teller who was simply wrong; Powell has weaseled too much and kissed too much Chimp ass to do that. His little bit of backtracking yesterday seems more intended to point a finger at the CIA than to acknowledge any fault of his own. What a disappointment he's turned out to be -- he should've resigned over matters of principle long ago.
The job of the court jester, though, was to be ridiculous in ways that punctured the pretensions of the king. The jester, by being considered a fool, was given license to say things critical of royalty for which others would be put to death.
To call Savage, who directs his bile relentlessly away from power, a jester, is to malign the good office of jesterhood!
Savage is just an ass.
The speed of the turnaround is the puzzling factor for me.
10/03 - Standard bullshit briefing - "We have not yet found stocks of weapons, but we are not yet at the point where we can say definitively either that such weapon stocks do not exist or that they existed before the war and our only task is to find where they have gone"
01/04 - Standard noncommital rehash - "A great deal has been accomplished by the team, and I do think ... it important that it goes on and it is allowed to reach its full conclusion. In fact, I really believe it ought to be better resourced and totally focused on WMD..."
03/03 - total repudiation - "I think most others at the working level recognized the correctness of the assessment that those weapons don't exist."
So, the question is ... what don't we know and why don't we know it? What happened between January and March?
Kaye was selling services to protect corps from WMD . Thats why he was chosen plus hiS strong REP background . They figured he was on the team all the way. that's why his turnaround is so amazing.I got to believe the scene on the ground turned him . One man standing tall!
My profound apology to all jesters. They bear no resemblance to the vile M.S.
whoops. 03/04.
Erik G, thanks.
Mr. Kay, he did search through the sand.
And ended up with his cock in his hand.
He wondered aloud,
"Just where is that cloud?
If I miss it, I'll surely be canned."
ot - Larry Johnson and Tom Mertons (sp?) are on the Laura Flanders show right now on air america. Her show is probably the best show on air america. No humor but more in depth intelligent discussion.
Found a new home for the preznut.
Wanna see?
Eric G asks: What happened between January and March?
Whatever it was, it might have begun to happen shortly after the October statement, because the January one is just treading water...
Re Powell:
he should've resigned over matters of principle long ago.
-zeke
Powell has never been a man of principle. He didn't get to his position by having principles, but by kissing the correct ass at the most opportune time. Just because he doesn't run around Washington like a raving maniac doesn't mean he is anything more than a Republican whore.
What 'principled' position has he ever taken? Puhl-eeez. He has consistently gone along with the program in every administration he has worked for, going back to his Army days after the My Lai incident. It was Powell, after all, who had the initial responsibility to investigate this incident. Did he? Hell, no. He bought into the cover-up program right then, and never resigned to this day. As in, TOday.
Kay probably was of the same mind as Bushco because Bushco pushed so much at the sheep that it had to be true, the preznit wouldn't lie to the sheep, would he? Then Kay found that, yes, the preznit and all his men would lie to the sheep because the sheep are so gullible. I think of the preznit as Humpty Dumpty because I am hoping that all the kings horses and all the kings men can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again!!! He has egg all over his face and it is a hard wash to get it off.
Phredd, that is interesting about Powell and My Lai. I wonder if that could be made more known.
By the way. You should all worship me.
I don't think he was too happy when he came back and said he was pretty certain there had been nothing since the early '90's and Rumsfeld said he didn't think "it was very likely that was true." Aside from the slap in the face of being called a liar, it had to seem like a very willfully misleading statement- perhaps an eye-opener.
Can we define "true believer"? I don't think any of the pack who brought this war truely believed there were any serious WMD in Iraq (and what would a "non-serious" WMD be?) Nothing there, in other words, that could wipe out half of a large city in Israel or Kuwait, say, or kill 20,000 American troops -- as any WMD worth its name would be able to do. If the administration had even the slightest quiver of a doubt that there were, they would've been deterred -- by the prospect of instant political suicide if nothing else.
Not only were they not deterred from going to war, they weren't deterred from announcing months in advance that they were going to war.
Re Kay
I think it is more likely that someone (from CIA - FBI) told him the truth - instead of the Bush feed.
-- and then when he was on the ground in Iraq the puzzle pieces came together - and the only answer he could come to was - I have been lied to.
-- and nobody likes to be lied to -- makes for an irate former kool-aid drinker.
Sara Seattle
He may also realize that there is a new front in the war on terrorism. and that the actions of the executive have put that war at risk...
Here's a tip!
America Percieves Ketchup as an Anti-American.
He's more than willing to sell America out to the rest of the World.
Here's a tip. America hates the rest of the world because we are afraid that our internal support will fall the way of the EUniuchsitan.
Here's a tip for Backsider (aka, I take it in the Ass) and Sick of it All (I want to give it to you in the ass!).
America is conservative. The more you holler LIBERAL, tho more America pulls conservative.
For Me And All Of US....Please Holler Liberal!
Laura Flanders show ... is probably the best show on air america
Of the shows I've heard, I thinks hers is best too. But I've been an admirer of her work for years, so maybe I'm biased.
Phredd, you're quite right about Powell and My Lai, and about Powell lacking principle in general. I should've said that he would have resigned over matters of principle, if he had any.
Kay was a UN inspector with many visits to Iraq under his belt. He had to have known . . .
there was an amusing young fella
whose daddy was scared to be yella
said "i've got the bling bling
now make me the king"
but his IQ was simply not stella
My personal take on Kay's change: the situation in Iraq is getting worse. Running about the country in a futile search for WMD was getting more hazardous each day. Unlike our men and women in uniform, he could resign once stateside and be safe again.
Dull-in-here; I would hate to see GWB go to that suggested new home, I'm sure he would devalue the neighborhood. It was funny though.
As for David Kay, I really don't think he expected to find the WMD's, but couldn't put any spin on not finding any, thereby pissing off the WH. He was then perhaps chewed out, and that's what finally got to him, along with the lying he had to put up with.
Kay rhymes with ...
I won't tell.
You People Disgust Me!
You only oppose Secretary Powwell and NSA Rice because they are black.
How disgustin. Sharpton was right....white America can't handle successful people who are People of Color!
Kay was a UN inspector with many visits to Iraq under his belt. He had to have known . . .
Seems like most of the UN inspectors were pretty sure there wasn't anything there. Scott Ritter, Hans Blix, those German guys...maybe Kay was a figleaf for the Bushies.
there once was a blogger named Charlie
whose footballs were racist and sarly
said he, on a bender
with Ann Coulter's member
"her dick is all twisted and gnarly"
Did y'all hear what Kay's replacement is up to?
Unable to find weapons of mass destruction, the new U.S. weapons inspector said Tuesday his strategy is to develop a comprehensive picture of Saddam Hussein's intentions toward advancing WMDs
He probably should have stuck another two or three vague qualifiers in there.
Ahmed Chimplobby - "Mr. Duelfer, I once heard from my barber, who heard it from his second cousin's sister-in-law, that Saddam once said he wished he had a nuke. Or something like that."
Duelfer - "At last we have him! Get Karl on the phone!"
Kay was a very Chimpathetic lobby for Iraqgate... nice to see him turn tail and start reverse-syphon regurgitating the Chalabi overspill he tacitly partook of.
O.T.: UK Guardian reporting Bush approached Blair about regime change in Iraq 9 days after 9/11.
http://tinyurl.com/2mn6s
Kay, true believer in once sense. I think he really sincerely thought there were massive amounts of wmd's in Iraq. I think he also sincerely and truly feels the intelligence agencies botched this badly. He knows there are no wmd's now, but thinks it is the failure in intelligence.
This is where I think Kay becomes more a Kool-aid drinker. Kay doesn't think Bushco lied or manipulated the intelligence in anyway. He thinks Bushco was duped by the intelligence failures, should admit the failures from the intelligence agency, and then fix it immediately.
Bushco doesn't seem too worried in the least about these intelligence failures regarding the wmd's. That's because Bushco knows the truth that the wmd claims were false because they were the ones who created/stovepiped/cherry-picked the intelligence. Kay can't see this and doesn't understand why Bush isn't outraged over this monumental failure. That's where Kay's Kool-aid kicks in with his blind support and trust that Bush wouldn't lie about such a serious issue.
The more you holler LIBERAL, tho more America pulls conservative
I've heard it called "battling the bishop" and "saluting the troops" but I guess "pulling conservative" is a brand-new euphemism.
A point rarely made about the failure to find WMD in Iraq is that it completely destroys the basis for Chimpy's doctrine of pre-emptive war (which of course remains in place). The doctrine itself is an incredible slippery-slope that can be used to justify almost any war, any time; we just have to "believe" another country poses a threat to the US. Total insanity.
zeke,
it's preventative war they waged. Not pre-emptive. There's a legal difference.
Pre-emptive means you have proof (WMD) that he is about to attack, and must pre-empt him.
Preventative means that you think...pretty much whatever the hell you want to think. It means you think he may at some future time attack you but you don't have proof of it. So you attack anyway.
They hanged people at Nuremburg for that.
After leaving the UN and before going to the administration, Kay was on MSNBC a lot in the early days of the war. I remember him being the only expert worth watching there at the time.
He's a smart guy and was probably hired for the job by the admin. because he would be credible as NOT a partisan hack.
As far as his change of tune from October to March, it's no different than Richard Clarke -- when he was getting a paycheck from the administration, it was part of his job to put the situation in the best possible light, given what he knew. Now that he's been off the payroll long enough, he can say what he thinks again.
The Great Thing About Iraq, WMDs and UBL,
Fact is, we will find all of them in September or October.
Consequently, you will wail and moan about the coincidence, while America is countong the votes for Bush/Cheney.
Of course you will complain that you "won" Florida and West Virginai and New Mexico and West Virginia, but once again you will be wrong.
And why...because Clitno/McAuliffe wabt Hitlery to win in 2008.
There's no way Ketchup can win, no matter how much you want him to. He'll lose because Hitlery cannot face a Democratic incumbent in 2008.
Or, Have you forgotten the pact?
I assumed Dimson outsourced the planting of WMD when he brought Kay in.
I stand corrected.
people like Kay coming clean to the public are exactly what we need to win this election... they are former "true believers" who have seen the light and are discouraged about Bush's misleadership. Unfortunately, people like Clarke can be tainted as "former Clinton official."
Mildly OT, but can we start calling this war "The War of the Preznit's Turkee" now? Can we, huh, huh, pleeze??
Because it obviously never had a damn thing to do with the War on Terra.
Ok, so I was watching The Beltway Boys on Fox 'cos I wanted to find out which companies to boycott (I figure Fox is doing the heavy lifting for the GOP and the only way to change the diehards is to hit Fox in the pocketbook) when I heard an exchange between Kondrake and the What+his+name regarding the price of gas. Whats+his+name made some comment to the effect that regardless of what Kondrake thought about Iraq's place in OPEC, it was really unlikely that Iraq could control its oil supply without the US. I guess you had to be there but it was the defining moment for me that confirmed, once and for all and without any ambiguity, that it *was* the oil.
Wasn't "thou shalt not steal" one of the ten commandments? Seems like a born agin should know better.
Ok, so I was watching The Beltway Boys on Fox 'cos I wanted to find out which companies to boycott (I figure Fox is doing the heavy lifting for the GOP and the only way to change the diehards is to hit Fox in the pocketbook) when I heard an exchange between Kondrake and the What+his+name regarding the price of gas. Whats+his+name made some comment to the effect that regardless of what Kondrake thought about Iraq's place in OPEC, it was really unlikely that Iraq could control its oil supply without the US. I guess you had to be there but it was the defining moment for me that confirmed, once and for all and without any ambiguity, that it *was* the oil.
Wasn't "thou shalt not steal" one of the ten commandments? Seems like a born agin should know better.
WMDs, you dumb fuckwit.
Every person I know can name at least two people they personally know who voted Bush in 2000 who won't be voting Bush in 2004.
No one I know can think of anyone who voted Gore in 2000 who's planning on voting Bush in 2004.
Bush is going down. Even if his multiple lies don't do him in, the economy, unemployment, gas prices, fucking workers on overtime, shitting on the military and their families, or fucking up the environment will do him in. Do you realize that there are a lot of duck hunters and other sportsmen complaining about the environmental degradation they've witnessed in just the past 3 years? When guys who play with guns turn against you and you're a Republican, it's all over.
Kay, O'Neill, Zinni, Ritter, Clarke, Shinseki, (somebody help us out, there's more)
Whoops! Sorry about the double post. It's the gin.
I think he was a true believer- and he's changed his mind after seeing the real evidence, a sure sign of intellectual integrity.
He probably thought that when he came back and told bushco the real deal that they would see the light. He must have underestimated the corrosive effects of the bushco kool-aid. It makes them both blind and stupid.
I just wish more on the right would dredge up a little of that integrity stuff instead of twisting themselves into pretzels trying to justify the neocon world view.
Jennifer,
In a Republic, it doesn't matter who wins the popular votwe.
It only matters who wins the Electoral Vote.
I desparately, dearly, monstrously hope that W loses the popular vote, and wins the electoral vote.
What a great day!
Can't wait to hear the Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth!
See, I think it was the neocons who were used. Yeah, they were the front for the "thieves of Bagdad". Remember what Deep Throat said? "Follow the money"
The guys behind Cheney et al wanted the Black Gold.
An LGF creeper with multiple names,
posted Atrios items with ridiculous claims
"It's all Clinton's fault," he'd yell and he'd growl,
"That the occasional troop wants to throw in the towel."
"Our Commander-In-Chief, he can't be denied -
the claims of Chalabi are all bonafide."
"You're wrong about everything, and I'd tell you more,
but it seems that I hear Ma just outside my door."
"So I'll sign off for now, in the next thread I'll be back,
I think that my trailer just fell off its jack."
With that the troll signed off and went into the night,
in search of beef jerky and a case of Busch Light.
Neocons and evangelical christians. What will it take for them to realize they've been had?
Neocons and evangelical christians. What will it take for them to realize they've been had?
Page One on tomorrow's Washington Post:
Framework of Clarke's Book Is Bolstered
the broad outline of Clarke's criticism has been corroborated by a number of other former officials
and as for Frist... declassified citations from Clarke's 2002 testimony provides no evidence of contradiction ... [and] includes many passages that appear to bolster the arguments Clarke has made.
It must really suck for all the nuts to know that America is a liberal democracy. Sure, the body politic may swing one way or another, but the foundation of America is liberal. You have to figure that deep down, even they know that the conservatives of 1776 weren't Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, etc.--they were Benedict Arnold and the Tories, who swore fealty to the King and were more than happy to turn in the rebels to the nearest redcoat. Speaking for all liberals, I say, "You're welcome, for providing you with a country that you're free to hate. And until you can admit how important liberalism has been to America, you'll never really love or understand what America is and can be. But enjoy all the rights liberalism has fought to give you. Morons."
As for Kay, I think there were unanswered questions about WMD. The difference between him and the other inspectors, however, is that they believed the unchecked boxes contained things like the centrifuge-buried-in-the-rose-garden, while Kay suspected oil drums full of sarin and hidden Scuds armed with smallpox. Then once he went back to Iraq, he learned that his suspicions were wrong, while his former colleagues were right. He's Chicken Little that finally figured it out.
Powell is simply pathetic. I don't think he even drank the Kool-Aid. He just did what he was told, like a good little soldier, same as he did when covering up My Lai. He just figured that his superiors knew what they were doing, that it wasn't his place to wonder about adult stuff like ethics. He's no more than Scott McClellan with a bigger office and a smaller forehead.
Hey Grrrr!
Hmmmm...OK, You're a complete Loser-Fuckwit! America is a Republic.
Now you go back to School on Monday and tell you're pathetic fucking loser pissant non acredited piece of shit teacher that the NeoCons said, She//He is the reason why American Schools Blow!
Grr....How bad does it suck to know that you are a loser, with loser, bullshit ideas?
Go back to the NEA and get some loser fucking talking points. Then come back to the USA and debate like an non-idiot!
I think that I shall never see
a wingnut more stupider than thee
Dear MWHAHAHAHAHA,
Thank you so much for thinking I'm 32 years younger than I actally am. But I actually remember the original Watergate hearings and this is SO much worse than then that it's laughable. I feel sorry for the troops who are serving as the swcurity guards for the GOP loot. My brother might have been one of them if he hadn't broken his leg. The rest of his reserve unit is in grave danger. And for what? So some rich crony of the Bushes can siphon off the oil?
"It only matters who wins the Electoral Vote."
W didn't win the electoral vote either. The only vote he won was the rigged ballot in the Supreme Court. Read Vince Bugliosi's book "The Betrayal of America."
Kay believed the scenarios and half truths peddled by BushCo. Many did, and the Left didn't have the claim to facts and intelligence to counter Bush's con job. I can't 100% blame folks for not wanting to believe that an administration would baldly lie about matters of war. It is a difficuly reality to accept.
But eventually Kay was in a position to directly get facts rather than hearsay. Facts can be pretty powerful, especially if you have a conscience and don't live in a lifelong machiavellian bubble of lies like GWB does.
Before long, he saw it was all a manipulation. And like many folks (yes, even on the Right), his integrity kicked in and he's been honorable in telling the truth--although not shouting it from the rooftops.
The mission of the Left should be to get the real facts out, over and over. If reasonable centrists come to see the facts the way Kay has discovered them to be--many will repudiate Bush.
The Bush-is-savior true believers are beyond hope, but they aren't the only people who voted for Bush in 2000. I doubt Kay will be voting for Bush in 2004. He won't be the only Republican voting for a change.
Dear MWHAHAHAHAHA,
Thank you so much for thinking I'm 32 years younger than I actally am. But I actually remember the original Watergate hearings and this is SO much worse than then that it's laughable. I feel sorry for the troops who are serving as the swcurity guards for the GOP loot. My brother might have been one of them if he hadn't broken his leg. The rest of his reserve unit is in grave danger. And for what? So some rich crony of the Bushes can siphon off the oil?
If gas prices stay high, American's start to think that maybe it's Ok to take Iraqi oil. It keeps gas prices low at home. The little guy feels grateful.
They are more evil than we thoght. Even I'd WMDs show up, it was never about an iminent threat. It was all about theft. Maybe Kay is a decent person after all.
Members of the NEA have been seen with almanacs so they must be terrorists.
kay couldn't retain the cognitive disonence. iWaq removed his blinders.
The more you holler LIBERAL, tho more America pulls conservative
"I've heard it called "battling the bishop" and "saluting the troops" but I guess "pulling conservative" is a brand-new euphemism."
Erik G | Email | Homepage | 04.03.04 - 10:32 pm | #
Best comment of the day.
I'm inclined to think the four days Kay spent in his car surrounded by the Iraqi army influenced his thinking over the years. There actually are people who find the notion that the president would lie to them hard to believe, although not nearly as many as there were a year or two ago. My guess is he went in thinking he would find stuff and quit when he finally convinced himself he wouldn't.
Toonie Loser!
How many recounts would you like?
1, 5, 10, 20. There have been more than 100 recounts by the Press, by Terry McAuliffe, by the Socialist, by Al-Qaeda.
Fact is that NO recounts have shown Sore to be the winner. You don't get to recount until you become the winners.
That's not America. It's loserville, of which you seem to be Mayor.
And while we're at it...How dare you malign a predominantly Liberal Supreme Court! I simply cannot believe that a Dimmycratic Loser would malign a Court that allows Women to Murder Inconvenient Babies.
You need to figure out what your priorities are!
Do you want to murder unborn children, or do you want to illegally overturn pop[ular elections.
Burn In Hell Asshole! If Jesus lets me, I'll touch some water on your tongue.
Toonscribe's Idiotic Lunacy: WOW. You sound like you've got in your posession some kind of demented Mad-Libs(tm) for FreepTards. Rock ON! I've never seen a winger hit so many weirdass points in so few words!
You can go now.
=
I suspect Kay was a pretty true-blue believer. However, a disillusioned believer can react pretty strongly when he decides he's been had. Perhaps that is happening with Kay. It's evidence that Kay is not the sort of robotic idiot who idolizes Bush, vents his spleen at people who rue the 2000 mis-election, and then screws up by accidentally calling it a "popular election". (Oops! No question that Bush lost that one.)
I'm not sure we all mean the same thing by "true believer". To me, it's someone whose belief is so strong it cannot be shaken by evidence or facts.
By that standard, I see Kay as someone who had a modicum of loyalty to Bush, but was not a true believer - when he saw evidence that showed the Bush line to be BS, he changed his mind.
I think if you want to find a true believer in all this, look no further than Laurie Mylroie. She had an op-ed in the WSJ a few days ago that was startling in its nuttiness. I can't find the text online, but basically called Clarke a liar, based in large part on her belief that Ramzi Yousef is actually Abdul Basit Karim, and that his identity is a "legend" fabricated by Iraq while it occupied Kuwait.
I haven't dug deeply into the facts of this case, but on the surface it sounds like a completely crackpot theory. In other words, she sure sounds like a "true believer" in the sense outlined above.
somebody is over shit-faced
I'm not sure we all mean the same thing by "true believer". To me, it's someone whose belief is so strong it cannot be shaken by evidence or facts.
Ralph, bingo, that's just what I was trying to say way up at the start of the thread. True believers don't allow themselves to start asking questions that might lead to them having doubts. They have an entirely self-contained, internally consistent, and highly delusional view of the world.
Kay obviously doesn't fit that...
I've long felt that many of my liberal friends have discounted the true beliefs of the administration. It is an essential component of their incompetence that they actually DO BELIEVE most of the shit they believe in. WMD? Yes, they believed. They cherrypicked mountains of evidence and didn't bother to crosscheck a shred of it, but yes they believed it. Al Qaeda-Saddam? Of course. Evil beds down with evil. It's simple. Seek and ye shall find the evidence you want.
The duplicity, the real whoppers have come come typically after the fact in the war; the cost of reconstruction? Nothing but deliberate low-balling lies. A postwar transition plan? Palpable dissembling from the moment the war ended. Exit strategy? They never bother to answer the question.
The truly mendacious behavior has been rampant of course: No Child Left Behind funding, pollution-control rollbacks, anything to do with tax cuts, anything to do with the budget, the cruel joke of an even-handed department of justice.
But these guys mix and drink their own Kool-Aid. Kay is obviously a professional among parishoners.
I think the sudden switch in Kay's opinion may have come at the moment it became absolutely clear to him that the Chalabi mafia manufactured nearly all of the most damning intelligence about what Saddam had recently, as opposed to what the US and others sold him a long time ago.
redkimba- "the neocons . . .were used. Yeah, they were the front for the "thieves of Bagdad"."
Interesting theory, but the Big Oil/Services crowd is to the neocons what Saudi financiers are to Al Quaeda.
As for the evangelical christians, they will never "get" that they were duped, because they are insane and obviously able to believe anything.
.As for the evangelical christians, they will never "get" that they were duped, because they are insane and obviously able to believe anything.
Can somebody explain the koolaid reference? does it have anything to do with Jonestown koolaid?
So I just got back from going out, cause you know, it's saturday night, and I thought I'd read the comments before I change the clock and go to bed...
Just wondering... Are there always this many trolls on a saturday night? Or were all the copies of Dick, Bush and Collin rented out at the adult video store tonight?
If it's rented out next saturday, I bet if you ask real nice they'll let you rent the store copy of Anny the Tranny that they keep behind the counter.
kool-aid: Jim Jones.
Troll resurgence: probably some combination of three factors:
1) The Clarke revelations knocked them flat, now they've gotten back up and are punch-drunkenly flailing their shots around at random.
2) Publicity for Eschaton on Air America.
3) The Kos thing.
Troll resurgence: probably some combination of three factors...
You forgot: deep, overwhelming panic.
I can't help that David Kay's moral turnabout is nothing more than an ez\xample of a rat deserting a sinking ship. Furthermore, I don't think anybody in the Bush regime is a "true believer", rather they've got themselves so far in over their heads that they have no choice but to stick to the official line lest they be crucified not only by Liberal Democrats but more moderate Republicans (eg John McCain) as well.
that's "example". Sorry!
that's "example". Sorry!
it is impossible for me to believe that an expert weapons inspector was actually fooled into thinking there was anything there. i knew they wouldn't find anything just from reading the papers. if any of the u.s. intelligence was any good the u.n. inspectors would have found something by using it. either it wasn't any good, and the u.n. couldn't find anything with it, or it wasn't any good, so the u.s. didn't provide it to the u.n. for fear that it would be discredited when they didn't find anything.
i can't imagine a scenario where anyone was honestly fooled. they obviously lied.
Sometimes, when one sees that the facts don't support what one thought, one changes one's mind.
Before the war I thought that Saddam must have something, eventhough I didn't think that made him such a threat to us that we had to commit "preemptive" war.
Who would've thought that they'd have the gall to pull this off knowing there was nothing? If they thought they knew, or just lied, it doesn't matter -- anyone who realizes they were fooled will eventually join us rabid Bush-Bashers.
except they used Flav-R-Aid at jonestown.
"Powell has never been a man of principle. He didn't get to his position by having principles, but by kissing the correct ass at the most opportune time"
I think the movie Mars Attacks got Powell just about down, don't you think?
redkimba et al.
I think it helps when talking about "true believers" to realize there is more than one tendency within the neo-con movement, even if it is sometimes difficult to classify individual neo-cons into one group or another. There are those which essentially are trying to come up with intellectual justification for their masters to make money (and who maybe start to believe the theories they spin) and those who believe in American might but place American interests before making money. The neo-imperialist, let's make some money tendency is what we are seeing in the Bush admin ... some of them are true believers because they really cannot tell the difference between the interests of their masters and the interests of the US or anywhere else in the world, for that matter.
The TR kind of flexible true believer (my second tendency) is actually the kind of neo-conservativism we would have got with McCain if he were president. They certainly would have had their war with Iraq (although they would have made sure to eliminate the Al Qaida threat first ... that is, if Al Qaida would have even attacked if McCain were president, which I doubt), but it would have been executed with the interests of the Iraqis (and ME peace) rather than Bechtel/Halliburton in mind, and hence would have gone better (these sorts of things do make a difference).
I suspect Kay might be a true believer in the flexible, McCain supported manner. Does anybody know if Kay was a McCain supporter?
"Before the war I thought that Saddam must have something, eventhough I didn't think that made him such a threat to us that we had to commit "preemptive" war."
I did too. That is why it surprised my the my right-wing Zionist friends would support the war with Iraq: whom do you think Iraq would have targetted with WMDs first (assuming they had any) ... they would have bombed/attacked Israel just like they did in the last gulf war (I actually think it was a bad precident that Israel did not retaliate then, btw ... what kind of message does it send when a country doesn't retaliate when attacked? Or, for that matter, retaliates but against the wrong country? It certainly doesn't send a deterent message - so much for certain people's vaunted strengths in national security!) - i.e. from my point of view a little over a year ago, the Bush proposed war in Iraq was a threat to Israeli security even if many pro-Israeli types were somehow suckered into supporting that war.
I think he was a true believer. And a true mug.
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