I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
OT: from Woodward: "The good news for us is that Dean is not the nominee," Rove now argued to an associate in his second-floor West Wing office. Dean's unconditional opposition to the Iraq war could have been potent in a face-off with Bush..."
I'm going to go out with my babies and forget about this war for a few hours.
It's horrifying.
Not to mention the unlawful combatants and other civilian contractors killed doing the jobs soldiers used to do.
The news lately is a flashback to my childhood when troop deaths were a regular feature on the nightly news.
If Bush gets another four years, I'm sure it'll get to the point where I'm hearing names of neighbor's kids, cousins and the kids of friends on the casualty list.
Not to mention the unlawful combatants and other civilian contractors killed doing the jobs soldiers used to do.
Or the people they killed. Absent any elected civilian oversight.
Great fucking idea. Wait until somebody gets the bright idea to bring those guys home to do domestic pacification.
Hm... any bake sales for MoveOn happening near you, Tomato?
Granted, this isn't exactly the same circumstances as Vietnam, but you've got to wonder how long the patience of the viewing audiences can be tested by it. BushCo's been clever from a psychological point of view in yoking it to the war on terror, but how long can it last?
wtf, CNN trying to garner sympathy for Rummy over the 90 odd deaths in last 2 weeks!! "he feels badly about the situation, he visits the wounded..blah blah blah, the media is shameless!!
OT, but anybody seen the Washington Post today, on Woodward's book?
Other than the planes, bombs, guns, deaths and wounded... yeah, it's not Vietnam at all.
Damn, that quote is a killer. (no pun intended).
Anyone want to post it on LGF?
So waste your vote, Anonymous. Doesn't really matter, does it? At least all of the Democratic candidates and presidents of the last 25 years have actively worked on making that situation a little better. Only baby steps, we know, but better than nothing.
The Democrats have supported the policies of almost every Israeli gov't as much as the Repubs have. That's a fact. The difference is what has been done in between. You're stupid to expect anything different, and to throw away your vote at such a crucial time.
Wounded report for april:
178 wounded return to action
464 soldiers wounded not return to action
Damn, that post I was responding to got lost in the ether? Anyway ...
I still want to cry ... or scream!
The Russians made the mistake of Afghanistan because they didn't learn from our mistake of Viet Nam.
There were significant differences between Afghanistan and Viet Nam which made making the pararllel difficult until it was too late.
I think in the evolution of history, Iraq, although having links to Viet Nam is, in the end, going to be more and more like Afghanistan was for Russia.
Of course, Viet Nam, Afghanistan and Iraq were/are the evolution of a "Superpower Imperial Thought" which, in the end victimizes those posessed by it.
"Rice was the only member of his war cabinet whom Bush directly asked for a recommendation of whether to go to war.
"What do you think?" he had asked her a few weeks before. "Should we do this?"
"Yes," she said. "Because it isn't American credibility on the line, it is the credibility of everybody that this gangster can yet again beat the international system." As important as credibility was, she said, "Credibility should never drive you to do something you shouldn't do." But this was much bigger, she advised, something that should be done. "To let this threat in this part of the world play volleyball with the international community this way will come back to haunt us someday. That is the reason to do it."
Excerpt from Woodward's book
oh shit, wrong thread, sorry
Anyone want to post it on LGF?
Done!
Let's see how long it lasts...
The president described praying as he walked outside the Oval Office after giving the order to begin combat operations against Iraq, and the powerful role his religious beliefs played throughout that time.
"Going into this period, I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will. . . . I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case I pray that I be as good a messenger of His will as possible. And then, of course, I pray for personal strength and for forgiveness."
______________
White House Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr., according to Woodward, compared Bush to a circus rider with one foot on a "diplomacy" steed and the other on a "war" steed, both heading toward the same destination: regime change in Iraq. When it was clear that diplomacy would not get him to his goal, Card said, Bush let go of that horse and rode the one called war.
______________
"Powell felt Cheney and his allies -- his chief aide, I. Lewis 'Scooter' Libby, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz and Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith and what Powell called Feith's 'Gestapo' office -- had established what amounted to a separate government," the Post writes.
"The vice president, for his part, believed Powell was mainly concerned with his own popularity and told friends at a dinner he hosted a year ago celebrating the outcome of the war that Powell was a problem and 'always had major reservations about what we were trying to do."'
Mission Accomplished!
And a shorter David Brooks: "I was wrong, but I'm still right!"
The peaceniks were right - the chickenhawks were WRONG!
I do think, though, that the hostage issue won't be as big as people fear; it's one thing to keep hostages successfully when you control the ground, another when there's somene occupying you. Easier for someone to drop a dime or you or something to be picked up on electronic intelligence, and easier to move in.
So I expect dramatic rescues, which will be fortunate. Also, a following Bush bump, which will be unfortunate.
Dave, somebody said you needed a hug on LGF!! Poor baby!
Off with em!
http://www.nationinstitute.org/t...rg/tomdispatch/
"'I want heads to roll,' US President George W. Bush told top US officials here last week following the murder of four and mutilation of two American contractors in Fallujah." (Matthew Gutman, Analysis: Will rolling heads crush rebellion, or Iraq itself? the Jerusalem Post)
...somebody said you needed a hug on LGF!!
I'll give 'em a hug... just let me pull the pin on this grenade first...
Didn't green footballs refer to some kind of amphetamine in the olden days?
Greenies?
"'I want heads to roll,' US President George W. Bush told top US officials here last week following the murder of four and mutilation of two American contractors in Fallujah.
I do too. Let's start with Bush's and work our way down through his cabinet for lying about the need to put Americans in harm's way.
The president described praying as he walked outside the Oval Office after giving the order to begin combat operations against Iraq, and the powerful role his religious beliefs played throughout that time.
Shit, this man's just too humble -- he didn't even let them take a picture of this -- how do we know it's true?!!? (I'd give anything to know what he was 'praying' for.)
How can pro-lifer Christians pray for a false war?
After I finish crying over all the death and destruction Bush has wreaked, I think I'll go pray for his defeat. Two can play that game, Georgie!
I cannot wait to see him packing his bags and vacating the office he stole when he loses a real election this November.
While Bush prays to his god, you think the Iraqis aint praying to their Allah?
So far, Jesus-2, Allah-1.
But remember kids, this match is not limited to 5 rounds.
i wonder what kind of vandalism THEY will commit.
Woodward: "The good news for us is that Dean is not the nominee," Rove now argued to an associate in his second-floor West Wing office. Dean's unconditional opposition to the Iraq war could have been potent in a face-off with Bush..."
Does anybody here remember when the conventional wisdom was that DEAN ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT WIN AGAINST BUSH IF NOMINATED?
Does anybody remember when Karl Rove got a shitload of press for loudly commenting at a parade where Dean supporters were present, "Yeah! Dean! THAT'S the one we want! C'mon, everybody! DEAN! DEAN!"?
Does anybody think we got gamed, here?
Does anybody find it mildly curious that the coordinated media attack that knocked Dean out was just a little too fast and furious NOT to have had an assist from a Maciavellian White House, to which the media's fealty has been proven, time and time again?
pansypoo - we already know. They've vandalized the Constitution and US law by wiping their asses all over it.
I'd like to see someone run a split screen commercial with one side showing the chaos in Iraq and the other showing Bush pumping his fist and saying "feels good!"
He's a sociopath.
Barry - This is no surprise.
I was saying back when they were trying to make the "Dean scream" into such a big deal that this was what was going on. Dean had proven he didn't need to kowtow to corporate interests to raise big money. So it became the media's job to take out the candidate who had a proven track record of raising big money, hopefully to leave Bush facing an opponent who would be under-financed. I'm not sure it's worked out that way, given that Kerry is raising $10 million a month, but I am sure that was the plan and the reasoning behind it.
I read the whole linked article. What of commanders do we have? The more soldiers killed the more successful we are. I fear for our young men and women. I fear for our country.
"By the end of 1966, U.S. combat deaths in Vietnam had reached 3,910. By 1968, the peak of U.S. involvement, there were more than 500,000 troops in the country. During the same two-week period of April that year, 752 U.S. soldiers died, according to a search of records kept by the National Archives.
U.S. officials say that comparisons with Vietnam are invalid and the current fighting is only a "spike" and not indicative of a widening war. On Thursday, Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, described the current fighting as a "symptom of the success" U.S. forces are having in Iraq. "The sole intent" of the insurgents is to stop Iraq's transition to self-governance and democracy, he said. "
I think Rove is just trying to undercut the frontrunner, period, hoping his comments will shake voter confidence when it comes to turning out at the polls.
The reality is that the country is divided and this is going to be a very close election. Any democratic candidate who can walk and chew gum at the same time is going to be a threat to Bush.
Rethugs are never going to cop to the fact that Bush is an inept, incompetant liar. Face it, Bush could be caught in bed with Osama's 12 year old son and his base would blame it on Clinton and vote for him anyway.
What this election will hinge on is voter turn-out. Rove's comments are much less a commentary on the strength of Bush's opponent (whether it be Dean or Kerry) than it is a way to put a big question mark in the minds of voters.
Ricky Vandalism?
Dean ran as a war opponent and rose meteorically. Will the cowed Dem establishment and we Democrats EVER get a clue? Kerry has gone from Dean-lite to Hubert Humphrey in a mere few months.
"The president described praying as he walked outside the Oval Office after giving the order to begin combat operations against Iraq, and the powerful role his religious beliefs played throughout that time."
Gosh, where's Henry Kissinger when a President's praying in the White House? Do you suppose Dubya got on his knees like Tricky Dick?
Surely it is a quagmire.
I'd like to see someone run a split screen commercial with one side showing the chaos in Iraq and the other showing Bush pumping his fist and saying "feels good!"
He's a sociopath.
Actually, I did have an idea for a commercial along those lines.
Use clips from various Iraq-related appearances by Georgie, in chronological order, marked with dates. At the bottom, under the date, the current total (up to that date) of dead and wounded.
I think it's a good thing that our troops are killing so many terrorists in Iraq. Every dead terrorist is a dead terrorist. Dead terrorists can't come to the US and slit our throats. Our boys are doing a great job defending their fellow Americans.
(Un)Intended Neo-Consequences
Three die in U.N. Kosovo police shooting
(Reuters) - Two Americans and a Jordanian were killed on Saturday when violent emotions over Iraq boiled over into a shootout between members of the U.N. law enforcement mission in Kosovo.
U.N. police spokesman Neeraj Singh confirmed two American police officers and a Jordanian were killed. The deputy head of the Serb hospital in Mitrovica, Milan Ivanovic, said one of the dead was an American woman, hit along with four U.S. female colleagues.
U.N. police sources said four Jordanian police officers had been arrested in connection with the shooting, but could give no further details on the cause. Other police sources said it began with a row over Iraq followed by gunfire.
04/17/04 13:36 ET
Iraq is shorely not Vietnam. There was no world-wide pan-Vietcong movement!
Who is praying harder?
Jesus - 3 (Saddam, Yasin, Rantisi)
Allah - 1 (9/11)
iraq is not like vietnam do the extent that all wars are different.
iraq is like vietnam to the extent that all wars are the same.
well i haven't read the thread but that picture, a great picture, says it all. you send some punk ass kid (say like ricki dicki) to my town, all geared up with weaponry and let him pat me down and tell me what to do, well, i'm gonna say f you and your democracy. ain't gonna win my heart or my mind and it could get ugly.
having said that, i feel sorry for the soldier too, his valor, and his willingness to fight for his country, hi jacked by greedy power mongers in washington. that sentence i just wrote reminds me of vietnam more than i want it to.
Olaf-Iraq is a lot closer to Vietnam than a lot of other wars are to Vietnam or to eachother. It is more than just all wars being the same.
Atrios, you forgot about the barracks bombing in Lebanon in 1983, which killed over 200 troops.
That comment quoted above about Bush "riding the horse called War"...
Ever get the feeling something is making people make really telling quotes? Like there's this push: "HINT. HINT. Come on guys, now... Horseman. War. You can do it..."
let's try to link here:...
billmon's comments here...
hmmm. ok.
billmon's comments
one more.
href="http://billmon.org/archives/
001405.html#comments"> bill's comments
closer.
http://billmon.org/archives/0014....html#comments> bill's comments
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