I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
But it makes great politics =D
Remember?
IOKIYAR!
This is the same crap the local Catholic (and Reep) uppity up in Sacramento did to Gray Davis over the abortion issue. More hypocrisy from the Catholic Cult. What about the pro death penalty pols and what about all their internal problems
who gives a rat's ass about the Catholic Church anyway? They've had more than a few lifetimes to get it right and have yet to do so.
I would like to see, for variety's sake, occasional outings of anti-choice Catholic politicians who are staunchly pro-death-penalty, despite the Pope's pronouncements against it.
Then I'd like to see said Cardinals proclaim said politicians are also not up to their standards.
Then this so-called bruhaha will suddenly dissappear from the airwaves.
And why is the Catholic Church not refusing communion to every politician who voted for war in Iraq and every Republican who supports the death penalty?
Apparently the Vatican wants to return to the time when Catholic politicians were viewed with deep skepticism because it was believed they'd follow the Pope rather than the U.S. Constitution.
Is the pope really in the Bush camp?
Strange, strange, strange bedfellows.
Ridge can eat Jesus. Kerry can't. The needs of man trump those of God. Jesus is OK with that, because He's a GOP Team Leader.
Ker-clang, indeed. Talk about a double standard.
OT:
This soooo sucks because it'll mean no fun for wicked students like me.
Keep pushing this Atrios. All of us should keep pushing this until the SCLM starts calling anti-choice fundies on the log in their own eye.
It would be a new height of hypocrisy (barely imaginable I know) for Republicans to get away with smearing Kerry like this while der Gropenfuhrer, Ridge, et al, are held to a different standard simply because they are Gooper Catholics.
Sorry for a second OT, but this is new to me:
Some 'Dover' photos of shuttle dead?
I love you General. In a manly (but not TOO manly), Christian way.
TIME FOR ACTION:
It is time for those in favor of more separation of church and state to launch a major attach on the Catholic HIERARCHY (which is very vulnerable on child-sex charges, even among highly observant Catholics).
Don't attack the Catholic church or traditional Catholic positions on abortion and death penalty, but emphasize that church policy shouldn't impact government policy.
Repeat, repeat, repeat John F. Kennedy's position until everyone can recite it from memory. (I don't have the wording at hand).
Do not let this become a Church-Democratic Party blowup. Church members should not feel their faith is under attack, only the self-serving, attention-diverting (from sex scandal) actions of church leadership.
Add only a small dose of "no Vatican control of US politics" to the mix, since many US Catholics think the Vatican is in touch with reality and many protestants will agree that the Pope shouldn't pick our President.
A major attack here on the Catholic Hierarchy has the added benefit of awakening the public to the evils of church interference by right-wing Evangelicals as well, if done with some subtlety.
Keep pushing this Atrios. All of us should keep pushing this until the SCLM starts calling anti-choice fundies on the log in their own eye.
---------
Yes, by all means keep pushing this. Religious topics are a lose-lose situation for you libs out in the real world but by all means, don't let that stop you =D
Although your point is excellent, wasn't Giuliani already (automatically) excommunicated after his civil divorce and remarriage?
Sorry, early AM brain-fog:
"think the Vatican is in touch with reality" should be
think the Vatican is OUT of touch with reality
Sorry, early AM brain-fog:
"think the Vatican is in touch with reality" should be
think the Vatican is OUT of touch with reality
The situation vis à vis US senator and presumptive Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry and his eligibility to receive the sacrament of communion is slightly less contentious than depicted in Ian Kilroy's report "Kerry defies prelates over communion" (The Irish Times, April 14th).
In fact, neither the Archbishop of Boston nor the Cardinal of Washington, DC, the two dioceses in which Mr Kerry resides, have issued any directive that he should not receive communion.
A number of right-wing Catholic fringe groups have called on US bishops to deny communion to Mr Kerry and other pro-choice Catholic legislators, of whom there are more than 70 in the US congress.
It is important to note, however, that the US bishops have almost unanimously been silent on the issue.
Only two have indicated that pro-choice Catholic politicians should not receive communion in their dioceses (Bishops Bruskewitz and Burke). The others appear to be more prudent, understanding that Catholics have a right in canon law to receive the sacraments and that there is no infallible teaching on how to vote on either abortion or other controversial issues in America, such as the war in Iraq or the death penalty. - Yours, etc.,
FRANCES KISSLING,
President, Catholics for a Free Choice,
Washington, DC, USA.
Some 'Dover' photos of shuttle dead?
Apparently memoryhole's FOAI request was for caskets flown in to Dover, and the released pictures (1st 76 according to someone in another thread) included Columbia victims.
The local repug (neocon?) rag has been
hammering the Catholic church for the last several years for having about the same percentage of perverts and molesters as the general population.
But this Kerry issue pops up and, VOILA!, big feature story. Apparently all is forgiven? (With a picture of a - has to be fairly rare? - black catholic priest, to boot.)
They must have not heard about Ridge, Arnie, Guilliani, etc, etc, etc, though?
This just looks to me like a nekid drive to relate fundie protestants with fundie catholics under the banner of "pro-(republican)life".
"Fundies" hold no majority. They must make up in noise what they lack in numbers.
The vast majority of religious Americans that eschew fundamentalism are the spoils of this new religious war.
Here's a quote from my 16 year old daughter (Catholic School grade 1-
,upon hearing this story on NPR:
"Man, The Catholic Church is so corrupt! Have they even read the Constitution?!?!"
The Church used to recognize that Catholic politicians need to be able to represent a plurality of people and views not just rubber stamp the officail Vatican line. This only hurts Catholics in the long run and will ensure their exclusion from the political realm in the future.
Liberals should repeat this mantra again, and again, and again. It will re-strike a cord that the vast majority of Americans can agree with and support.
ADDRESS TO SOUTHERN BAPTIST LEADERS
John F. Kennedy
Sept. 12, 1960
Text
"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute -- where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be a Catholic) how to act and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote -- where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference -- and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him."
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish -- where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source -- where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials -- and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all."
"Finally, I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end -- where all men and all churches are treated as equal -- where every man has the same right to attend or not to attend the church of his choice -- where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind -- and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, both the lay and the pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their works in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood."
Well, we've had 2000 years of Christianity, and we maybe have about 100 years left (maybe only 20-30) before biotechnology or nanotechnology enables pocket-sized WMD that can kill millions. Face it: religion has utterly failed, the only choice left is total rationalism, or we all die, period, the end. If you wanna be a Christian then keep it to yourself, using it for sociopolitical ends means you're a terrorist.
Here's the letter I just sent. This is really fun.
Dear Mr. Robinson,
I was reading my Bible today and found a verse that reminded me of you: "adtendite a falsis prophetis qui veniunt ad vos in vestimentis ovium intrinsecus autem sunt lupi rapaces." As a good Catholic, I figure your Latin is still good enough to get through this.
Since you're calling for the excommunication of Kerry because of his pro-choice stance, please do the right thing before God and call for the excommunication of Rudy Giuliani, George Pataki, Tom Ridge, Arnold Schwartzenegger, who are also pro-choice Catholics.
Remember, if I can see your hypocrisy, so can God, and God will make you pay: "Sed quia tepidus es et nec frigidus nec calidus incipiam te evomere ex ore meo."
Yours in Christ.
Shouldn't the Catholic Church also excommunicate politicians who favor the death penalty?
Karl:
Excellent letter.
Add Mr. Santorum and Mr. Scalia to the list (pro-death penalty).
Since the whole anti-contraception position (yep, abortion is only ONE of the artifical contraceptives prohibited by the Catholic Church under the same rule) is based on respect for life, those public officials who persistently insist on supporting policies and laws that promote the death penalty are in the same moral position as those who persistently insist on supporting policies and laws that promote artifical contraception.
They did this as far back as Mario Cuomo, as I recall. It's a standard GOP attack against Democrats, whenever they happen to be Catholic. It's like a built-in win for Repubs: if the Catholic is a Dem, there's a 99.99% chance he or she'll be pro-choice, so you alert the Diocese, the Vatican and the press that a renegade Catholic is on the loose. And you let the Democratic candidate waste his resources and his positives fighting that fire, for awhile.
Democrats MUST point out:
This now-standard practice is being done by a party that's largely W.A.S.P. Meaning, that these are religious outsiders, interfering with the ongoing spiritual health of the Church. Which makes this a RELIGIOUS HATE CRIME, on the part of Rove and Co.
See? if you just twist the words a little bit, you make it THEIR problem!
Unfortunately, the guys who are able to think deviously like that all work for the GOP.
TIME FOR ACTION ON THE RELIGION ISSUE:
It is time for those in favor of more separation of church and state to launch a major attach on the Catholic HIERARCHY (which is very vulnerable on child-sex charges, even among highly observant Catholics).
Don't attack the Catholic church or traditional Catholic positions on abortion and death penalty, but emphasize that church policy shouldn't impact government policy.
Repeat, repeat, repeat John F. Kennedy's position until everyone can recite it from memory. (See post above: ADDRESS TO SOUTHERN BAPTIST LEADERS.
Do not let this become a Church-Democratic Party blowup. Church members should not feel their faith is under attack, only the self-serving, attention-diverting (from sex scandal) actions of church leadership.
Add only a small dose of "no Vatican control of US politics" to the mix, since many US Catholics think the Vatican is in touch with reality and many protestants will agree that the Pope shouldn't pick our President.
A major attack here on the Catholic Hierarchy has the added benefit of awakening the public to the evils of church interference by right-wing Evangelicals as well, if done with some subtlety.
I believe Powell is pro-choice as well.
What were they saying about Kerry's quoting scripture for "political purposes" a couple weeks back? An outrage, and outrage! Using religion for political purposes is the signed and sealed property of the Grand Old Party. Theologians strong and sure, they have a lock on proper views of what God has decreed to man. Paradoxically, in order to keep Church and State separate, we must keep out of the affairs of State those who do not have Officially Sanctioned (TM) understandings of God's Will.
Oh, and how about excommunicating anyone who piles laudits on certain cultish meglomaniacs who have declared themselves to be the true messiah and prescribed very unbiblical rituals of sexual purification?
Think this guy will get to take communion?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/
news...priest_arrested
[...]they only care about achieving and obtaining power.
Not to be too flippant about this, but the Dems could use a little of this type of mojo.
how is it possible for all these fairly well educated people to believe in these fairy tales? is it possible that they're phonies? it's time for someone to step forward and tell the truth about religion. it has been and continues to be the cause of most of the strife in human history.
These fuckheads can also ask for the excommunication of roughly 50 mio French and 45 mio Italians (and probably 25 mio Spanish and 20-25 mio Poles). Not to mention mio of British and Irish, and 20 mio Germans.
Sorry Anonymous,
It isn't religion that has caused all the strife in history, as you put it. It is Homo sapien sapiens that have caused much strife. Look it up.
ed, just curious, but would you have liked to see Dems out there first demanding that pro-death-penalty politicians be excommunicated?
Come to think of it, me too.
A.
RE the Vatican and its desire to interfere in an American election, the answer is simple - CUT OFF THEIR MONEY. Let the Cardinals in the Vatican live on good, solid, nourishing bread and water for a while and then see what their opinion might be. The US and Massachusetts might even get Cardinal Law to return to face the charges against him.
Ridge's voting record is why he was not selected for Vice President. You need to lighten up on the Catholics. Kerry's marriage was likely never annulled and he isn't the only so-called Catholic who is being dis-invited from the Communion rail. As I see it, one ought not advertise one's Catholic beliefs unless you really are a Catholic. That was the point of Tom Daschle's being compelled to remove the adjective "Catholic" from his literature, stationary, etc. Kerry's positions are his own-not those of the communion of saints to which he professes membership. JFK had it right-when addressing the Houston ministers he said that if his conscience got in the way that he would resign. Catholics, by the way,don't have right wing, left wing, etc foolishness. They view the behaviour of some of these political sorts as scandalizing. Look up that word.
"May the last king be strangled with the guts of the last priest".....Voltaire....or Diderot?Help me out here..
A,
What are you asking me?
Sorry A,
Forget my last post. I get it now. By the way, I take no position on Dems trying to get Catholic Repus ex-commed.
The issue should be why is John Kerry responsible for the sins of complete strangers whom he does not even know? If by his ignorance he allows women in Europe to have an abortion is he then a sinner just because he chose not to spend all 24/7 of his life rushing form place-to-place trying to stop it?
If he passes a law here in the states banning abortion, is he then obligated to take the nation to war against China to stop their allowances on abortion?
If he does not will he then be judged?
And what if a foreign country’s leader demanded American’s concede on some issues that are just as moral? Would we then fight back based on our so-called ‘sovereign right’ to control our own lives free from the interference of others? Why should this apply only to foreigners and not our neighbors? Should distance, language, or color of their skin be a factor in determining when they have the right to make demands of us on issues of morality?
The main hypocrisy in this is the notion that Kerry, or anyone, is responsible for controlling the lives of others when it comes to abortion, but does not have that right when those others choose to do something else that is morally or ethically questionable.
Does Kerry have a responsibility to continually look for the motes in another’s eye?
He is his brother’s keeper, but that does not make him the master of his brother’s life.
So what is the role of a ‘brother’s keeper?’
Does this mean you should only look out for the other so that should they stumble, you will be there to catch them, or does it mean that you must be there to walk them every step of the way and not allow them that chance to stumble?
How can Christians, or in this case, those who are playing politics, being anything less than fascist dictators over the lives of others and yet still call themselves stewards of individual freedom and liberty?
I do not doubt the sincerity of anti-abortion protestors towards protecting the life of unborn children, and one does not have to be a christian to feel this way. I do on the other hand take issue with their ‘choice’ in being this way only on specific causes for which they think they have the right to interfere, yet are ignorance of other causes just as valid, on the grounds that those individuals should take responsibility for their own lives.
If it not often that I explain the meaning of the moniker I use on this board.
But the acronym MYOB stands for ‘Mind Your Own Business’, and comes from the Eric Frank Russell sci-fi story “And Then There Were None”.
I recommend that some of you check out this story online. It truly is an inspiration towards understanding what real tolerance and individual freedom are like.
Be well.
MYOB’
.
gee....remember when another JFK was running for de orrifice of da prezident and the Protest-ants were all up in arms against a Catholic being in the White House???? They were of the opinion that a Catholic President would be taking orders from the Vatican rather than the people. That JFK had to go on the record to assure those huffen-puffs that his duty would be to the Constitution and the people of the US of A. And that his religion and belief in God were his business and never to two should meet. Or at least is was something to that effect. It was enough to sway the public and he won the election.
Now, all of a sudden, it seems that JFK number 2 is being dragged to the altar to be crucified because his views on politics and religion are separate beliefs that should not mix.
IMHO, JFK number 2 should take the stance of the US Civil War Admiral, David Farragut, who, at the battle of Mobile Bay in 1864, uttered his famous rallying cry, “Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"
Separation of church and state is a primary foundation of the Constitution and the laws of the land. I tip my hat to those Protestant leaders from the late 50's and early 60's that pushed to ensure that Catholic politic opinions would not find a welcome berth in the White House. Too bad their sons are silent, now that evangelical christians have infected the White House today.
Kerry needs to set the agenda on this one. He needs to state for the record he is opposed to the intermingling of religion and politics AND point the finger at Bush for allowing the infestation to breed inside the White House. Maybe his campaign should re-air those TV and radio broadcasts from back then to remind everyone that once upon a time, the opinion of the voting public was held in check until JFK stated his religion would not affect his decision governing the US of A.
BTW, I was born and raised a Catholic and to this day, I don't appreciate the church interferring where it is not welcome nor appropriate.
regards
.
Phillip James, senior Democratic strategist absolutely nails it in the Guardian.
A succinct article on what will be at stake on November 2004.
You guys ought to check out Lou Dobbs' latest question. It would seem he's being tortured with little or no help from Atrios today...
The question is: Do you think Americans have a clear vision of the future?
Yes: 6%
No: 94%
Wow.
Damn italics...
I'm not a big fan of religion in politics. That's what our forefathers tried to leave behind when they fled Europe. We must say this. The constitution supercedes all religions. You agree, you can stay. You disagree, good luck in Iran.
notch: Voltaire, iirc
followup: I think it's 'The world will not know peace until the last king is strangled with the guts of the last priest'
MYOB, is Eric Frank Russell the same guy that wrote 'The Great Explosion'. I read that and thought it not only hilarious but true and right to the point. Recommended.
Mike, I thought it was Voltaire's kind of modus operandi.
Thanks for the tip, Ilya.
As someone said earlier, the Apocalypse must be nigh, because I find myself agreeing with everything in Ricky Vandal's last post.
oxymoron alert: "Religious frauds and charlatans"
You don't understand. People like Nino Scalia are Catholic because they are pro-life, even if their stance in favor of the death penalty is contrary to Church teaching. You see one is about the murder of cute 'n cuddly little BEEEEEEEBEEEEEES™.
The death penalty on the other hand, is about an eye for an eye and a cheek for a cheek, or something like that, and it is the G*d-sanctioned execution of murderers like Kerry who want women to have the freedom to kill their defenseless little BEEEEEBEEEEEEES™!
The other is about sex, too, which is also a big no-no.
Is that clear now?
Mike,
Yes.
The 1962 novel incorporated the story.
MYOB'
.
Thank you,friends of the Enlightment.
er,Enlightenment.
"Sed quia tepidus es et nec frigidus nec calidus incipiam te evomere ex ore meo."
I'm sure Robinson gets spewed out of mouths all the time! In dark alleys, or perhaps communion booths.
Those on the right are frauds on all issues, no exceptions noted, but that does make then consistent, and they say thats a good thing. Isn't it?
ABB&B!!!
I actually agree with something Ricky Vandal posted.
Wow. Time for a drink.
Christie Whitless is another pro-choice Republican.
The Catholic church is agains the death penalty and the war in Iraq, almost no Republican should be allowed to receive communion.
Jesus was a liberal. The every-man-for-himself party has no right to claim that they are "religious". I know of no religion that doesn't care about starving and homeless people, like your average run of the mill right wing nut.
Instead of condemning the Catholic Church, we should be supporting their decision here. I strongly believe that any religious organization has the right to prescribe the behaviour of its members when that behaviour is directly related to church teachings. If the Catholic Church wants to completely jump the shark in the United States then by all means, proceed. I can't think of a better way to demonstrate the idiocy of their position.
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