I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Yeah. That outta make them take a good long hard look at themselves.
You might also want to ask them why they haven't mentioned that a Catholic group wishes to be able to deny mendical care and prescription medications to GLBT people.
Obviously these politicians have not received their Vatican Mind Control Chip Implants yet. I'm sure someone will take care of that forthwith.
On a side note, the population of Italy is shrinking because Italians aren't having enough kids to replace themselves. It is rumored they are using BIRTH CONTROL. Time to excommunicate the lot of 'em.
And don't forget Schwarzenegger the Gropinator. He's Catholic and pro-choice.
Right on Atrios. Keep up the pressure. This can't be allowed to become another distortion that passes into the realm of 'fact' for lack of serious analysis by the SCLM.
I will call them shortly.
I wonder how long until we get a Nedra Pickler article that begins thusly:
"While Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry spoke out in favor of abortion rights yesterday, he failed to mention that his beliefs are in direct oppositon to his Catholic faith."
Ooops! I see you have posted this below. How quickly the memory fades....
Susan-
Being half-Florentine, I can tell you that I know a fair amount of Italians and of those families with children, I can count on one hand the number that have more than one offspring!!!
It's really interesting that Italians are 'raised Catholic' and yet they are quite skeptical and cynical when it comes to the Church. They are almost aggressively secular in deed if not in word.
Perhaps because they have too much first-hand knowledge about the true nature of the Church...
I would think that the Catholic Church's moral authority is not to be taken seriously after the way they handled the "crisis" - their word for priests who can't keep their holy hands off of children.
Shouldn't we be demanding that the Catholic Church lose its tax-exempt status? They are clearly functioning as an adjunct of the Republican Party, since they:
1. Don't apply their so-called principles equally to Democrats and Republicans alike, and
2. Don't apply their so-called principles equally, in that they don't ostracize pro-death penalty politicians who are violating Church teachings just as much as pro-choice politicians do, in fact even more so, since pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean pro-abortion, but pro-death penalty means pro-death.
On a side note, the population of Italy is shrinking because Italians aren't having enough kids to replace themselves. It is rumored they are using BIRTH CONTROL.
You sure can't say that about Mexico. The imports around my hometown seem to have a rule that if you're married, you're supposed to have a baby every year.
How about every catholic republican who supports the death penalty?
I just called the number and after being put on automatic "hold" for awhile- the call was abruptly terminated before I got to an operator or message system.What the F?
just replace every single piece of religious discourse in this country with the phrase, 'nuh-uh'.
this will save precious time and oxygen.
Actually, Ernest, Mexico has 1 million abortions per year despite almost total inaccessability to legal methods, and has far lower fertility rates than most third world countries.
Mexican Americans are behaving like most Americans, who have a higher fertility rate than most first-world countries. Many of my WASP friends are on their third or fourth kid here in the SF area.
::ring ring::
"Hello, CNN help desk."
"Yes, I'd like to know why you aren't discussing other politicians who shouldn't be receiving communion according to the Vatican, such as Tom Ridge and George Pataki."
"Well, they're not running for president, now are they? Nobody wants to know about them."
"But you covered Gary Condit endlessly . . ."
". . . a politician and sex. It's a lower thresh-hold."
"But then how do you defend your endless coverage of OJ, Kobe . . ."
". . . celebrity sex and violence. It's our specialty."
"But it's so hypocritical."
"Hypo . . .? Huh?"
"Hypocritical. Hypocritical! Don't you know what . . ."
"I'm sorry sir but you're breaking up. I . . . I can't understand what your saying . . ."
::click::
::sigh::
Anyone ever read a book by David Lodge on Catholics and contraception? By the same guy who wrote 'Changing Places', the lesser-known title is 'How Far Can You Go?'
Called again, Got an operator, when I said I had a complaint was quickly put through to a voicemail box which of course was full and would not take my message.
If George Dubya's a Christian then Bill Clinton's a virgin.
MYOB'
.
George W. doesn't need to attend religious services because he is a Church of One and the Divine Word is piped directly to him. That's what he told us.
Interesting that Kerry is also being criticized for his antiwar stance during Vietnam -- which is entirely in keeping with Catholicism. Just goes to show that it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the church or his religious belief, and everything to do with a smear campaign. Consistency be damned!
Susan: "On a side note, the population of Italy is shrinking because Italians aren't having enough kids to replace themselves."
Please don't say that so loud. You might attract that guy who used to post on Calpundit... no matter what the topic was, he would post these page-long replies about how Europe was on the road to self-annihilation because people weren't having enough kids, which, in his view, was due to socialism. You really don't want him to come here, trust me (and I'm not saying his name in case that attracts him)...
Spike: I got the same response. If the mailbox is full, maybe that means there are a lot of calls on this issue.
I called back and told the operator what happened and she (very nicely) offered me the fax number and email.
I had emailed already.
Fax no. is 404-827-1906
Republicans are explicitly allowed to live their lives contrary to religious teachings, while Democrats cannot.
Hasn't anyone learned that yet?
It is in the Bible. Shrub put it there when no one was looking. After all he speaks to G-d daily.
That and we Liberals are held to a higher standard because IOKIYAR
W says, "You can screw the churchyard.
'Cause the man upstairs is my pard.
He covers my back
When I draw on a pack
Of baddies with which I am tar'd."
he would post these page-long replies about how Europe was on the road to self-annihilation because people weren't having enough kids, which, in his view, was due to socialism.
OMG, this sounds exactly like what the French Right was spouting circa 1940 - that it was all the fault of the modernising social democrats, the Americans, the feminists, et patati et patata...
Do women hold soveriegnty over their own bodies? You, in the funny hat: no? They don't? Well, that settles it then.
I guess we'll have to vote for the aWol, drunk-driving, business-failing, sub-average grade-recieving, fake Texan-accent spewing, non-reading, garbled-speaking, ex-frog-torturing, ex-coke-sniffing, ex-drinking, environment-destroying, Bill of Rights-shredding, massive-deficit creating, no-contract-bid- providing, tax-cuts-for-the-wealthiest-creating, pre-emptive-war-lying, plastic- turkee-carrying, vacation-junkie sack of Slacker Shit! Oh, and his breath is bad.
+++
emails can be sent to public.information@turner.com
--
I got shunted off to the voicemail as well.
I sent them a fax asking whether they would ask Tom Ridge, George Pataki, Rudolph Giuliani, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the Republican Pro-Choice Coalition whether they think the Catholic Church should excommunicate Kerry.
I also asked about the boy king's relationship with the United Methodist Church.
OT: NYT WASHINGTON, April 24 — Facing one of the grimmest choices of the Iraq war, President Bush and his senior national security and military advisers are expected to decide this weekend whether to order an invasion of Falluja, even if a battle there runs the risk of uprisings in the city and perhaps elsewhere around Iraq.
After declaring on Friday evening in Florida that "America will never be run out of Iraq by a bunch of thugs and killers," Mr. Bush flew to Camp David for the weekend, where administration officials said he planned consultations in a videoconference with the military commanders who are keeping the city under siege.
So what do you think Commander Bunnypants will do?
I know what I think:
120 American Dead.
1800 Iraqis, (600 civilian).
20,000 new 'terra-ists' after watching Arab TV.
'Bring It On' (split-screen with Coffins at Dover).
Bush is a Methodist? I woulda sworn he was Presbyterian. Those Presbytarians are sooooo snobby with their predetermination doctrine and all.
Go ahead and call in your complaints.
But realize this: the people who answer the phones are not the people who make the decisions. You won't be speaking to Daryn Kagan or Lou Dobbs. You'll be speaking to someone who makes $10/hour to listen to angry people all day.
They do keep a tally of people's complaints, but being a dick about it won't make your opinion count twice.
Trust me. I have inside knowledge about this.
Don't forget Antonin Scalia, who says the church is "just wrong" on the death penalty.
Atrios, as a non-practicing, part-time Catholic/agnostic, I have to tell you that my disappointments with the church, and particularly the American Catholic church, never seem to stop. These people seem dedicated full-time to drive people away from the church.
The way these people are aligning themselves with the "Xtian right" (usually southern baptists and Evangelicals) is scary enough, but their involvement in trashing Kerry and passing a law to deny medical coverage to gays is simply repugnant. These people are being seriously misled, and it may mark my final detachment with the church, no matter how flimsy it is already.
And regarding Republican Catholics that shouldn't be receiving communion, let me remind you of a very interest issue: the Catholic church still bans divorce, and considers it a mortal sin. In the usual fashion of considering some sins "OK" and others "unforgivable", the church decided that if you divorce, you are no longer part of the church, and you can never again receive communion.
So it's not only Tom Ridge, Giulianni, and George Pataki. Add to the list every Repuglican Catholic that ever had a divorce. The list may be overwhelming.
I snorted & guffawed last night when I heard Brooks assert on The Newshour that John Kerry's catholicism wouldn't be an issue in this campaign..
Well looks like Brooks was wrong again.. when this shit gets prime air time on a sat morning on CNN, it's an issue..
Also noticed the little subtitle making look like all this was comming straight from the VACTICAN..
Slightly OT -- but I think Bush is sincerely the worst type of warped Fundamentalist Christian -- one that is so sure of his special relationship with God that he can do no wrong. He really sees God's purpose at work letting him slide through life to his currently unearned position. It's a massive ego trip of denial. That's why he seems hypocritical to us -- his ego is so aligned with his singular vision of God that consistency is irrelevant. It's the ultimate in narcissism -- his will and God's will have become conflated. In that same vein, I think he is warpedly sincere about wanting to bring what he calls "freedom" to the Middle East and other Muslim countries -- but I think freedom is a code word for ultimately bringing Christianity to the region. After all, in his mind, he was not "free" (in a very literal sense) until he accepted Jeebus into his heart. Somehow we've fallen from modernity into the Dark Ages. Maybe that's really what Post-Modernism means. I remember the title of a book from thirty years ago when I was in college -- it was something like "The Coming of the New Dark Ages." Can't remember who wrote it, but I'm starting to think the author was right.
The GOP makes every effort to market itself as the party of God, and therefore the party anointed to lead America. Yet Bush et al pontificate to the world that the Iraqi people will not be free to choose a theocratic state for themselves. Unlike the American press and voters the rest of the world understands the hypocrisy. The extent to which the Republicans will exploit religion grows more disgusting everyday. It is not enough that Bush and Republicans get away with labeling those that disagree with them of being traitors and God haters. Now they want to bring their politics into your church, to be a wedge between you and what you hold sacred.
You can write to CNN at http://www.cnn.com/feedback/cnntv/ . I recommend using the America Votes 2004 section.
Poppy
I have always felt that GWB's "faith" is fake. I don't for a second believe that he takes his orders from God. He takes them from the extremist religious right. I, too, have often wondered why, if he's such a religious person, he doesn't go to church. And, as Amy Sullivan said, the United Methodist Church, of which I am a part, was against the war in Iraq.
Should Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Tom Daschle, Dick Durbin, Barbara Mikulski, Jack Reed, Bill Richardson also be excommunicated?
What about Republicans Susan Molinari and Susan Collins?
From Confessore in the TAP archives:
Indeed, many of the GOP's brightest stars are Catholic, such as governors Tommy Thompson of Wisconsin and John Engler of Michigan, and Representative Chris Cannon of Utah. In the East, ethnic, Catholic Republicans have in recent years led the GOP to a surprising revival in formerly Democratic precincts: George Pataki and Rudolph Giuliani in New York, Paul Cellucci in Massachusetts, John Rowland in Connecticut, and of course Ridge himself in Pennsylvania. There's just one thing: All of the Republicans in this last group are, to varying degrees, pro-choice.
Pol -- I think that unless we take W's faith seriously then we truly underestimate exactly how dangerous he is. His faith gives him carte blanche to do any damn thing he wants because he walks with God -- for all practical purposes, he IS God -- at least in the sense that he represents the manifestation of God's Will on Earth. As such, that makes him extremely dangerous. unless we take his faith seriously we will always underestimate what he is capable of -- kind of like the old-fashioned German Conservatives who thought they could work with and even control Hitler because they didn't take his anti-Semitism seriously -- they, too, said that was just rabble-rousing to pander to his base. They thought he was just a politico-thug who could be useful for a while and then discarded.
What, ask CNN the clueless news network to give the viewers balanced and fair coverage, not from lap dogs like them and others in the media, which by the way is the majority of the media these days.
Copped from a loose-lipped post on freerepublic:
CNN NEWS CHIEF Eason Jordan. 404.827.5111. fax: 404.827.4215. eason.jordan@cnn.com
CNN NEWS DIRECTOR Kim Bondy. 404 827 1500. fax. 404 827 1099
CNN NEWSROOM 404.827.1500 . 404.827.1500. cnnfutures@cnn.com
If CATHOLIC was an acronym, it would stand for:
C.A.T.H.O.L.I.C.
Conservatives Are The Holy Ones
Liberals Insult Christ
Much like how I look forward to the day when Vietnam service or lack of service is no longer an issue in the election of a president, I'm very much looking forward to the day when people don't make religion the issue in the election of the president. Hopefully, that day will eventually come and hopefully soon. It's ridiculous to vote based on religion--especially when it seems that the majority of candidates--both Republican and Democrat--use their religion as little more than show.
- Joel
----
Nightmares For Sale - another damn blog (that you really should check out)
I just called CNN and got a switchboard operator who said their voice-mailbox was full. Good job blog readers! She also said that their comment line (same number Atrios gave) is only open M-F. I complained to the switchboard operator a little bit anyway...can't hurt!
Lime Rickey, when are you going to set up your own blog for your marvelous limericks?
I didn't know that Bush attended church so little, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. If you look at his knowledge of the bible he supposedly studies so heavily, it doesn't seem particularly impressive. This was documented particularly well in Franken's book.
So this president thinks he has a direct line to god, believes he is doing god's work, but also cannot be bothered to go to church or really read the bible that supposedly guides him. In other words, the only thing he's working from is what he believes god is telling him. If that is not one of the most chilling things ever, than I don't know what scary is.
- Joel
----
Nightmares For Sale - another damn blog (that you really should check out)
Jeb Bush is a pro-death (penalty) Catholic. Is he still taking communion?
I totally agree that since Bush is the one who has made his faith an issue, then the media needs to call him on it often. However, unlike some, I do believe that Bush believes the bullshit he spouts. I do believe that he thinks god has appointed him president specifically in these times for god's purpose. It makes him incredibly dangerous.
I think that fact is not lost on those Repugs who are not fundies. I think it scares them just as much as it does me. I think they would like to see an end to this, too. I can't swear by that, but I can't help but think that is the case.
PREDICTION:
The Vatican story will be pushed and pushed by Karl Rove... not so that he can show that Kerry's positions aren't aligned with his religion...
but to show that KERRY IS ONE O' THEM CATHOLICS.
In the South, folks still make the argument that "Catholics aren't really Christian."
It's funny how you hear those arguments even when you're neither Christian nor Catholic.
but to show that KERRY IS ONE O' THEM CATHOLICS.
I read somewhere that Democrats in Congress are creating a test that will show whether Democratic Catholics or Republican Catholics more frequently vote in accord with the church's doctrine.
That'd just contribute further to the false choice with which we're being presented: Which kind of Christian nation should the U.S. be?
Exactly the wrong move, I think.
monica_nyc - That is the wrong move, I couldn't agree more. We need to get religion out of our government, not to have our leaders engaging in some kind of theological "test."
A better "test" is whether our representatives are adhering to our constitution. That's the only thing I care about, anyway, when it comes to a politician's religious beliefs. I don't care if a politician worships Jehovah, Allah or the alien mothership that waits to transport them back to some distant world, as long as they check their beliefs at the doors of Congress or the White House and acknowledge that when it comes to their job, it is the constitution that is preeminent.
Those Presbyterians are sooooo snobby with their predetermination doctrine and all.
Yeah, and we already knew he wasn't going to make it.
Amusingly, here in Phoenix today, the Episcopalians are elevating their new bishop (apparently a nice chap, altho a convert from Presbyterianism). However, no Episcopalian venue in town was big enough to handle the crowd, so the Jesuits, who have a really big church, are hosting the whole thing. Such solidarity!
But now I wonder whether somebody's going to call Vatican central and complain about the Jesuits giving houseroom to a bunch of scarlet priests and demonic Protestants who are at this minute taking communion at a Catholic altar.
Just too confusing.
When I was a little kid, my grandmother in Tennessee once told me in all seriousness that Catholics were idol worshippers. That was maybe forty years ago, but among some Fundamentalists things haven't changed that much -- they still think Catholics are going to Hell because they aren't the right kind of Christians.
Used the CNN form - clicked vote 2004 - and "my comment today is: positive."
Me:
"It is interesting that religious issues in the 2004 campaign are being mentioned. I hope you will give us a careful look at Mr. Bush's "revelations" from his "Heavenly Father." Some of us out here think maybe he's gone nuts. Also, Mr. Bush rarely attends church, differs from the Methodist church in which he claims membership on the issue of war in Iraq, and yet claims to be "moral." For a long while the Republicans have tried to pull a cloak of religiosity over their doings, whether it be yanking benefits and dumping the task of feeding the hungry who result on "charities" in his so called faith-based initiatives, or claiming to be "pro life" and with a Republican congress and stacked Supreme Court still doing virtually nothing different than any Democrat president in office would have done--other than depriving some foreign nations of some aid money and pretending this shows their concern about human life. I would be DELIGHTED to see so called religious issues continue to be fairly and intelligently discussed in this campaign."
CNN: Thank you for taking the time to submit your comments on the "Top Stories" of the day on CNN.com! It is very important for us to know what our viewers are feeling and we value your response. This is how we are able to consider changes that will appeal to you, our valued viewer.
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Thanks again for your feedback!
CNN
When I was a little kid, my grandmother in Tennessee once told me in all seriousness that Catholics were idol worshippers.
This reminds me. Whatever happened to that general who said our God is better than theirs or something. Rummy said there was an internal investigation.
Did the press ever follow up with Rummy if the investigation was completed?
But the man who has staked his domestic policy on the power of civil society and of good Christian individuals to change lives isn't an active member of a congregation – the very kind of organization in which he claims to have so much faith.
A pattern of behavior that won't surprise any pastor or priest you care to ask.
The people most likely to tell you that their idea of church is really a great idea....
...are the people least likely to attend save for fairly regularly on Christmas Eve and Easter.
But the man who has staked his domestic policy on the power of civil society and of good Christian individuals to change lives isn't an active member of a congregation – the very kind of organization in which he claims to have so much faith.
Doggone it, Dumbya wants to attend those services, he really does. However, he not only has to be concerned with the other parishioners safety, as was Ronnie Reagan's excuse, er, reason, but he's also a mighty busy man. You know? Fallating
Sharon, leading that double life With
Condi and the Mrs, and planning his next vacation and fundraising trips.
Those things take up a surprising amount of time.
Please don't use the "death penalty" argument because an easy counter-argument is that opposition to the death penalty is not Church doctrine, but rather a stated position, particularly of this Pope.
HOWEVER, an even better one is the Church's position on artificial birth control. This IS official, this IS doctrine and there was even an encyclical stating it as such (Humanae Vitae.)
Time to start finding out which Republican politicians want to ban the pill, condoms, etc. (I seriously think that Rick Santorum would do this. Please, PLEASE, someone ask him.) Seems to me if you do NOT take a stand against artificial birth control, you shouldn't be hitting the Communion rail either.
eileen from OH
Eileen is absolutely right.
Demand from every news outlet you can grab hold of which politicians (from either party) are a) Catholic and b) divorced.
Demand the excommunication of any who are. Demand that your local bishop order the stopping of communion to these folks.
Let's play hardball with these assholes.
http://www.endthewar.org/frontps/faith/umc1.htm
Bush Admonished to Halt Threat of Iraq Attack
Jim Winkler, General Secretary, United Methodist Church
August 30, 2002
For Immediate Release
The following is a statement of General Secretary Jim Winkler of The United Methodist Church General Board of Church and Society:
The Bush administration has declared its intent to launch a war against Iraq, ignoring the advice of its allies, many members of Congress, key experts, and
millions of U.S. citizens. With unprecedented disregard for democratic ideals and with an astonishing lack of evidence justifying such a pre-emptive attack, the President has all but given the order to fire.
... Read it all.
Is someone keeping a list somewhere? Add Christie Whitless.
Since hyprocrisy is practically a requirement to be a Republican today, I'm not surprised that Bush does not attend church. Like so many fundie Christians I've known in my life, Bush wears relisiosity like a cloak, which can be removed for convenience. He doesn't live biblical principles although he talks as though he does. If Bush were really a Christian, he ought to be awfully worried how he's going to explain to his Maker the wide divergence between his religious talk and his political actions.
Eileen -
It's my understanding that both the death penalty and abortion are equally matters of RC Church TEACHING (by the magisterium). To the extent that Humanae Vitae (on birth control) is an encyclical, it is a "serious" teaching. "Doctrine", i.e., matters of belief which all Catholics "must" hold in order to be seriously considered Catholics is pretty limited. With one or two exceptions, doctrine (as just defined) is limited to the proclamations of faith listed in the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. No pope in the twentieth or current centuries has ever pronounced a teaching "ex cathedra" (from the chair of Peter). To be "ex cathedra" a doctrinal statement must be something so universally believed within the Church to be true that there is no serious argument about it. I know, I know, there are plenty of theologians who maintain that the "ex cathedra" pronouncement of the Immaculate Conception of Mary in 1854 did not meet that strict standard, and I agree with them. But it's also clear that no pope since has wanted to make more "ex cathedra" pronouncements, in spite of JPII's willingness to let uneducated Catholics believe that EVERYTHING he says must be inflallible...The reason why "ex cathedra" is not tossed around more frequently and irresponisbly? No desire for SCHISM.
I meant "irresponsibly", dammit!
Oh, and another little factoid. Someone way upthread stated that the American Catholic Church is the most liberal of the national brances of Catholicism. Not true. The Roman Catholic Church in the Netherlands has us beat by a long shot.
the media whores are living up to their reputations as america is burning.
applaude Nero, but tomorrow they shall pay.
It's ironic to contemplate the alliances the Christian Right has forged. On the one hand, with free-marketeers - although fundies would dearly like to see many products (and many types of consumers) cut down at the knees. On the other hand, with Catholics and Mormons, and Jews of a certain zealously pro-Zionist bent. Do the Catholics, Mormons, and Jews know what the typical evangelical conservative Protestant says about them behind closed doors?
I know from experience and it ain't pretty.
someone who makes $10/hour to listen to angry people all day. - don't they know they can get this for $1/day in India. Why does CNN hate Amurika?
In 1960, I was in 8th grade in a small central Texas town located uncomfortably close to Waco, the burnished buckle of the Bible Belt. A Catholic (long since fallen away, but that's another story), I was definitely in the minority. As the 1960 presidential campaign heated up, so did the whispered Cat-licker jokes featuring orgies between priests and nuns, satanic blood-drinking rituals, and infanticide (that's why Catholics have so many kids, doncha know). In a class debate, the Nixon team scored big with fear-mongering about the dire fate of our country if Kennedy were elected, because Catholics could swear allegiance only to "the Pope-uh-ROME," never to the "Flag o' the YOOnited States o' Murrika." Kennedy confronted the issue head-on in a famous speech delivered in Houston, Texas. Well do I recall a nun reading that speech to us in catechism class and her pride that Kennedy had chosen to deliver his speech in OUR state. The monsignor, speaking to us before our confirmation ceremony, explained that a person could be a faithful Catholic AND a patriotic citizen of the United States--render unto Caesar, and all that. Ironic, isn't it, that the Catholic Church is now squarely in the camp of the right-wing ideologues, blasting away at what's left of the wall between church and state. The Pope-uh-ROME and all his cardinals and archbishops need to read what Kennedy said back in 1960--and then beg forgiveness for their sins. And John F. Kerry needs to stand up to these religious fascists, as did the JFK he seeks to emulate.
I am much more concerned about leaving the phrase "the Republic for which it stands" in the pledge of allegiance to the flag than I am with taking out the phrase "under God". (We should watch the rewrite closely.) But that said, I think it should be pointed out that there are deeply religious people who think one should not say the name of God, except under the most private and sacred circumstances. Other deeply religious people use the word 'god' to some as a stand in for an ineffable, unnamable great mystery of divine being. thus using the word god in a public statement doesn't count for much to the latter group, and is just as offensive/inappropriate to the former as it might be to an avowed atheist. THe divisive nature of the current discourse on 'religion' takes us all further away from examining the actual teachings of the actual sprititual paths behind the labels. This is tragic, for many reasons. WHenever I hear "Christian" from a leading neo-con, I wonder how abridged their copy of the gospel is. We know from his own admission that W does not read, but relies on others to provide the material. If only the person feeding the Pres the morning scripture sound bite was willing to include the passages that define Christianity for me, (and for many, many active church participants.) THe gospel is full of radically 'liberal' ideas, as you find quickly if you read more that 2 paragraphs of any given section. What about the 'easier for a camel to go throught the eye of a needle than a rich man to achieve the kingdom of heaven"? How about "forgive your enemies- 70 x7 times"? And I am amazed and disturbed that no public figure ever got through censoriship to point out that the phrase "if you aren't with us you're against us", an obvious New Testament reference, has a counterpart in a different gospel: "if they aren't against us, they are with us". I always assumed that , besides from the translation issues, this was the sign of a zen koan circulating at the time that amounted to "don't sweat the petty stuff". Oh my, what gets lost in the highly selective religiosity of our Appointed Ones.
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