I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
But won't someone think of the boobies?
(@)(@)
But remember it's the fault of the evil-doers (and he doesn't realise how right he is whenever he says that).
None of that "First Post" crap for me!
Y'know, considering how many other Iraqis and non-Iraqis are being maimed and wiped out by insurgent forces across the country, I really have to wonder why Fallujah deserves all of this attention. The mutilations were horrible, but AFAICT the only thing separating the killing of the four mercenaries and practically every other killing is that the video was splashed on screens around the world. Hell, there have been numerous attacks on military and even civilian targets that resulted in celebrations by radicals--those didn't result in sieges on the scale of the one facing Fallujah.
Right now, I really wonder what those mercs were up to that deserved such a strong reaction to their killing. Did that lynch mob inadvertently stop an operation that power brokers in Washington and Baghdad were banking on? I'm only speculating from under my tinfoil hat, but this really has my head spinning.
George's War -- I know there must be something snarky to say about that, but the thought of a full-scale flattening of the people of Fallujah leaves me without words. Time for a drink.
AKA Donna
yeah, i'm pretty tired of iraq...
when does the new season start? I'm excited to see how this emerging plot line of Condi and George plays out. personally, I hope Ashcroft gets voted off of the planet next, but you just know Colin is gonna get it.
Juan Cole has more, Corrente as well.
I don't understand. June 30 is just a month and a half away. Why create a fireball now, if you're planning to "leave". Ok, I do understand; Bush is a sociopathic nutter without a shred of conscience, but it's all so pointless. It's their country, their city, just pull back and chill out. All this for four hired guns???
Did Falluja know it was on double secret probation?
That's the only explanation I can come up with for the extreme reaction from killing 4 mercenaries.
GWB DOES have the Dean Wormer air about him, after all.
is Fallujah on the Syrian border? is the Dear Leader deliberately trying to incite a wider war?
Too bad the media can't "adopt a family" in Fallujah the way they all jumped on board and told the story from inside the military units (at least, as much of the story as the American govt. would allow them to tell).
It'd be a LOT more enlightening.
How much killing will Christian America put up with before they throw the unelected fraud out of the white house? Guess if you can't convert them, blow them to hell and let jesus sort them out.
If there are any sane military leaders left in a command position they have to be trying like Hell to talk Bushie out of ordering them to do something stupid, catastrophic and in the end probably something they can only hope to live long enough to have nightmares about.
Apparently, there's vague word that they are going to continue with negotiations for now. But that's nothing official--just what someone is saying they heard on CNN over at Daily Kos. I'm hopeful, anyway. As much as I can be when Bush is making the decision, which is not very.
An all out assault on Fallujah would be utter disaster. I don't want to see May be a worse month than April. We don't need any more pictures of flag-draped coffins coming home in the dead of night.
- Joel
----
Nightmares For Sale - another damn blog (that you really should check out)
Sometimes my agnotstic ass longs for there to be a God. He could be the only one to bring this administration to justice. Heaven knows our media and populace won't.
Fallujah has resisted the will of Shrub. See the infidels? http://tinyurl.com/2yonj
Armageddon? Bring it on.
I know, I should use spell check....
Its tough being educated in a red state.
Iraq Still there.
Also remember what's on the docket next week.
Monday: Hearing regarding whether whistleblower Sibel Edmonds can be deposed by the Motley-Rice law firm.
Tuesday: Chenron and the Supremacists.
Thursday: Boy king and Chenron share tea with the commission.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Trite, but true...There is no "decision" involved, the WH doesn't have the imagination to do anything else. This is like watching a car accident in slow motion...
If there are any sane military leaders left in a command position they have to be trying like Hell to talk Bushie out of ordering them to do something stupid...
You rang?
Check out this picture I took of the sky above Mogadishu. You can clearly see the smiling face of the Devil himself in the clouds. See?
We are a Christian nation and this is a crusade. My God is bigger than Allah. We will cleanse the Earth with the blood spilled on the battlefield. Jesus guides my sword.
The term of art is "train wreck in progress"
Or "MCF" for the grunts.
To 56k,
No, there aren't many cities near the Syrian border, mostly wasteland. Fallujah's smack dab in the middle of the country, what the Republicans like to call Heartland. Except there it's Terraland.
First time poster, long time reader.
To 56k,
No, there aren't many cities near the Syrian border, mostly wasteland. Fallujah's smack dab in the middle of the country, what the Republicans like to call Heartland. Except there it's Terraland.
First time poster, long time reader.
My fellow Merkans. Over ten years ago a Merkan president committed a cowardly act, he cut and run. Ever since then, I've devoted my life to showin' what a pussy he is so my Mom Babs will see who is the better man. I have just given the order to flatten falloolah and bring democracy and peace to the people there. May God continue to guide and bless us. Thank you.
Sorry for the double post guys.
I hope some network begins running a M*A*S*H marathon weekend. I want to watch reruns of that show, clip my toenails, and drink some cold beer during Armageddon.
If he really orders this killing of thousands of innocent civilians, if there is no peep from the American people, then Americans are no different from Nazi Germanies. History sure will judge you for supporting this despicable action from this President. Blood will be on your hands people.
Damn...we lost 5 soldiers today already...and potentially more with this boat bombing?
Crap.
If there are any sane military leaders left in a command position they have to be trying like Hell to talk Bushie out of ordering them to do something stupid...
That's the funny thing about bein' President, see? People can tell you opinions and you don't even have to listen to them. Lalalalalala. Now get out.
Incognito - It's okay! TCM is showing Dr. Strangelove in about an hour - that should help.
What Bush decides this weekend depends on just which "advisors" he decides to bestow his attention upon. In actuality, he's saying the same things he said before invading Iraq: "hasn't decided yet", "no plans on my desk", we don't back down," etc. I figure civilians will get a very short time to get out of town and then the Marines (poor guys) will be launched. It's gonna be a very bloody situation on both sides.
Lucky for Bush we're the world's only superpower. That's the only thing that can keep him from a war crimes trial.
Maybe the regime doesn't want to wait until next week to "decide" what to do -- so as not to interfere with the Mission Accomplished! First Anniversary party.
is Fallujah on the Syrian border? is the Dear Leader deliberately trying to incite a wider war?
No it just seems we're genuinely in Vietnam territory now.
Fallujah is the place most of us have heard of so if you waste it you'll generate more publicity at home.
You know, like body counts.
Anybody see General Wesley Clark on CNN saying that we should go in and use "overwhelming force" in Falujah? Guess he wasn't so progressive after all.
is Fallujah on the Syrian border? is the Dear Leader deliberately trying to incite a wider war?
the first part was answered by others (know why most of iraq is peaceful? cause most of it is empty! badaboom!)
the second part, forseeable consequences.
recall, its .1k kia, 1k med-evac, 2k prompt political evac (es/hr/dr) and another 2+k in deferred p-e's (no/nl/pl), 2 puppet battalions confined to barracks, and 10% across the board conversion of puppet police, or on the order of a division intentionally attrited over april/may/june.
that was to do a punishment exercise for four private army kia, handled badly.
the war doesn't need to get "wider" to end in defeat for the coalition, it just needs to continue on the current trajectory.
I think they only have like 1500 Marines there. Even with air support, that sounds like too small a force if the Iraquis decide to put up a strong defense, which seems likely.
"...Dear Leader is going to make what could be the pivotal decision..."
Time will tell whether it's the pivotal decision, but I think I can say with some certainty that it will be the wrong decision, no matter what he decides. Can anyone point me to a single example of Bush making the right choice... about anything?
Apparently Bush may have been micromanaging the whole thing in Faluja, and intends to do the same thing in Najaf. Scary. The war guys can't get a way with the civil authority, and so we turn to our President and his Heavenly Father to break the ties...
The big news is that ...
on jc's site at least a day earlier.
To add to what buddhistMonkey said:
Can anyone point me to a single example of Bush doing one good thing -- for the U.S. or anywhere else?
No it just seems we're genuinely in Vietnam territory now.
Don't be silly: Vietnam is nowhere near the Syrian border. You damn lefties keep trying to make this idiotic comparison, but it's wrong. And have you noticed that there's no jungles in Iraq? Stupid libs.
Shut up weak kneed liberal appeasers. We are kicking ass, finally and you want to wring your hands and cry like babies. Fuck you, we are the real America.
The government line on Falluja is that it is the point of origin for most of the "insurgency." When this got started, however, I don't recall hearing that. It was all about the 4 mercenaries (and what were they doing there?) It has shifted. My, there's something we haven't seen above about 50 times already in this war - shifting justifications.
War crimes have already been committed in Falluja, and they made the BBC. Not just the Guardian, the BBC. If the U.S. goes further, then I would very much hope that the international community would condemn the U.S. Not likely to make any difference, but silence is complicity when it comes to atrocities.
"Can anyone point me to a single example of Bush doing one good thing -- for the U.S. or anywhere else?"
The White Sox!
If he really orders this killing of thousands of innocent civilians, if there is no peep from the American people, then Americans are no different from Nazi Germanies. History sure will judge you for supporting this despicable action from this President. Blood will be on your hands people.
No, no, no. The Nazis were evil.
Our hearts are pure.
That's the difference. There can be no wrong consequences, as long as we meant well.
Time will tell whether it's the pivotal decision, but I think I can say with some certainty that it will be the wrong decision, no matter what he decides. Can anyone point me to a single example of Bush making the right choice... about anything?
I think the pivotal decision will prove to have been shutting down Sadr's newspaper and releasing the year-old arrest warrant. I'm afraid this decision (whether or not to assault Fallujah full-bore and with all we have) will simply be the an inevitable one, somewhat as WWII was merely the postponed conclusion of the mess that was WWI.
Shut up. We are at war. You liberals know nothing, and Bash Bush for no reason other than your envy at his huge success. Your liberal lies are not being heard and are nay laughed at in the heartland. You pesky, class warring commie enablers are finsihed as a new age of prosperity makes all your pettiness more pathetic. Democrats would bring destruction to this country just to win.
/cynicism on/
And I suppose that would be billed as "removing a roadblock to sovereignty" or somesuch. /cynicism off/
Scorpio
Eccentricity
Everyone knows the BBC is leftist propoganda. I do not trust anything they say.
This situation almost makes me pine for the Bush I administration...at least he could build an actual coalition.
I wonder what he thinks of his little boy now.
All the Vietnam comparison stuff will be seen as a joke in the future. The growing disaster that is Iraq is a big enough FUBAR mistake in its own right to stand alone.
At least in Vietnam, within the context of the cold war, we bled the commies dry to some extent. With Iraq though, we're creating problems we didn't have.
Damn...we lost 5 soldiers today already...and potentially more with this boat bombing?
no. you lost 11 on that one, 5 kia, 3 crits, and 3 non-crits (taji). 2 kia (kut), and 16 iraqi police, 4 kia (tikrit), and there are still no reports out of the three ops against oil assets in the gulf.
on the bright side, a 3.5 ton truck bomb was interdicted. on the not-so-bright side, opfors have decided to militarize gulf oil assets.
Okay, enough. LOOK. This is who you're fighting in Fallujah. Terrifying, hunh? Worth sending 22 year old Marines in to destroy, hunh? These are your problems.
My father said the other day Condi made a slip and called Bush her husband. Anyone know more about this?
Pretty fucking strange if she did.
I hope this guy is a joke.
I mean, I don't recall any liberals being this rabidly supportive of any Democratic politician. I know, I know, you can say that no Democratic politician has been sufficiently ideologically pure for the same kind of support. But Bush is so far from conservative it isn't funny. And yet he (even if LaL is a pseudo-troll) engenders such unyielding support.
Go figure.
President Bush told newspaper editors in Washington yesterday that Iran "will be dealt with, starting through the United Nations" if it does not stop developing nuclear weapons and begin total cooperation with international inspectors.
The language was reminiscent of comments Bush made about Iraq long before the war, and to admonitions he has issued to Syria. Iran, along with Iraq and North Korea, was part of the "axis of evil" in his State of the Union address in 2002.
If adults were in charge we would take this as normal diplomatic rhetoric. But with this administration co-operating with inspectors is taken as a sign of weakness that leads to your country being invaded. If you were Iran what would you do?
Here We Go Again
Annthrax Coulter: "NUKE THEM!!! NUKE THE LOUSY, SWARTHY, NON-CHRISTIAN, MUTHER FUCKERS!!!! NUKE THEM FOR JESUS!!"
MYOB'
.
http://tompaine.com/blog.cfm/ID/9942
The Fallujah Alamo link
"We have the potential to turn this into the Alamo if we get it wrong." Those prophetic words were spoken by a senior U.S. military officer to a reporter for The New York Times . He's right. It's a potential turning point in the entire U.S. war in Iraq. If the United States goes full-force into Fallujah, it will be a Pyrrhic victory: from the ruins of that city, hatred of America will rise all over Iraq. (If the United States attacks Najaf, where Muqtada al-Sadr is holed up, it's curtains for the occupation.)
About 3,500 Marines, backed by air power, have surrounded Fallujah, preparing for a showdown in the next few days. Already hundreds of Iraqis have died in the siege, including many civilians, women and children among them. The siege of Fallujah is being watched intently across Iraq, and it is turning the Iraqi people—even fence-sitters—against the U.S. occupation. An Iraqi in Baghdad, interviewed by the Times, puts the crisis in perspective.
"Four American people were killed in Fallujah. Because of that, 500 people were killed in Fallujah. The message of the Americans is that 'we have the power.' Iraqis will never accept that."
Driving the coming assault on Fallujah is a combination of two forces: the U.S. neocons, who are constantly demanding renewed demonstrations of the "shock and awe" philosophy that got us into in the first place, and the U.S. military, which is operating out of sheer revenge motive over the spectacle of the four Americans whose bodies were burned and mutilated in the city.
It's a slow-motion catastrophe happening before our eyes. It appears that even the British forces in Iraq are repulsed by America's bloody-minded tactics. For months, there have been reports the Paul Bremer—the U.S. czar in Iraq—has clashed with our only real ally there. British generals wince at our brutality. Yesterday, in the British Parliament, British military officials reported "friction" with the United States, and General Michael Jackson, the head of the British armed forces, makes it clear:
The head of the British Army has publicly conceded the United States and Britain have different approaches to military doctrine on the ground in Iraq.
General Mike Jackson told the parliamentary Defence Committee it was a fact of life that British military doctrine on post-conflict situations was different to that of the United States.
Tensions between the two military forces in Iraq have emerged in recent weeks.
U.S. commanders are privately critical of the British for taking too soft a line while senior British military officers are describing the Americans as too brutal.
Gen. Jackson appears to distance the British Army from its U.S. allies. "The phrase I use for this is, we must be able to fight with the Americans, that doesn't mean we must be able to fight as the Americans, if you see my distinction," he sai
And yet he (even if LaL is a pseudo-troll) engenders such unyielding support.
Go figure.
Jude
They're dumbasses and they love their dumbass president.
Shut up weak kneed liberal appeasers... blah blah blah... we are the real America.
No you're not. Stop wiping your ass with our country. Go play somewhere else... I want to listen to what the adults have to say.
It's not Vietnam. It's the Warsaw ghetto, or Wounded Knee. It wasn't the killing of the four Americans, it was the mutilation and display of the bodies that sent people over the edge. Methinks the downer preznit is asking himself, What Would Cheney Do? Maybe it's time to uncork that test-tube of Ice 9 and get on with it.
Well, I'm sure those stooges on the IGC will appreciate having sovereignty over a smoking pile of ash.
Sickening, that Junior Nero still suffers from the delusion that he is entitled to make life and death decisions for other people.
I hate being a repeat-a-troll, but this really got to me.
Another drug war outrage in, of course, Florida-stan.
On a side note, a co-worker just finished jury duty where they convicted a man of possession of less than a gram of coke. He was caught with it during another vice crime sting, an undercover prostitute soliciting him for sex. Despite the investigation being botched and the defense doing a good job (according to my co-worker), he was convicted of a 2nd-degree felony (up to 25 years) and will probably face 3-5 years in jail. All the while we let out rapists, murderers, and child molesters because of prison over-crowding.
And of course, he was a poor minority.
Sorry for the OT... The chimp will of course opt for ultraviolence. Like that is even disputable.
:-(
That's an answer, Incognito, not an explanation.
It's hard to defeat a committed ideologue. Ho Chi Minh could tell you a thing or two about that. But he's dead, so I'll have to do it instead (thanks, slacker).
Really--a better understanding of the unthinking support of Bush would probably point out ways to attenuate its effects. And maybe wake more than a few people up.
Bush making a decision - Paper, rock, scissors, okay, flatten them.
OT: Where has town drunk been, must be one hell of a bender he is on. I know my liquor bill has about doubled in the last year.
it was the mutilation and display of the bodies that sent people over the edge
hey nobody was outraged when Mussolini's body was mutilated and hung upside down in Piazzale Loreto.
Jude
Actually the destabilization of the middle east has been policy for a very long time. Clintons sanctions and illegal bombings hastened the process. It took a thriving nation, the most western of all and turned into a third world nation.
All Bushco did was attempt to pick the apple. If they would have succeeded, he would have been viewed as a strategic policy genius.
Sadly they failed.
Overall, Iraq represents more of those 758 US military bases strung out around the world. Thus allowing the US a swift response in damn near nation around the world.
This has been the main underlying policy for decades, possibly going back before Carter.
One of the reasons for Kosovo was to build a us base there. Which we have, it being an open secret.
Iraq has something like three. Do you think any us president will be giving up those bases without a total uprising by the populace?
This article is very enlightening
http://www.alternet.org/story.ht...l?
StoryID=17563
"At Least 700 Foreign Bases
It's not easy to assess the size or exact value of our empire of bases. Official records on these subjects are misleading, although instructive. According to the Defense Department's annual "Base Structure Report" for fiscal year 2003, which itemizes foreign and domestic U.S. military real estate, the Pentagon currently owns or rents 702 overseas bases in about 130 countries and has another 6,000 bases in the United States and its territories. Pentagon bureaucrats calculate that it would require at least $113.2 billion to replace just the foreign bases – surely far too low a figure but still larger than the gross domestic product of most countries – and an estimated $591,519.8 million to replace all of them. The military high command deploys to our overseas bases some 253,288 uniformed personnel, plus an equal number of dependents and Department of Defense civilian officials, and employs an additional 44,446 locally hired foreigners. The Pentagon claims that these bases contain 44,870 barracks, hangars, hospitals, and other buildings, which it owns, and that it leases 4,844 more.
These numbers, although staggeringly large, do not begin to cover all the actual bases we occupy globally. The 2003 Base Status Report fails to mention, for instance, any garrisons in Kosovo – even though it is the site of the huge Camp Bondsteel, built in 1999 and maintained ever since by Kellogg, Brown & Root. The report similarly omits bases in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Qatar, and Uzbekistan, although the U.S. military has established colossal base structures throughout the so-called arc of instability in the two-and-a-half years since 9/11."
Really--a better understanding of the unthinking support of Bush would probably point out ways to attenuate its effects. And maybe wake more than a few people up.
Jude
The only way they can be stopped is to be utterly discredited. But that's impossible these days when they can always find some pundit or website with more rationalizations/justifications/talking-points to dodge the consequences of their actions, no matter how fucked-up and severe they clearly turn out to be.
Perhaps Bush wishes to synch up the levelling of Falluja with Sharon's targeted assassination of Arafat.
I just finished reading Jo Wilding's account of her kidnapping and release. First, I want to cry, because so many good people are being involved in such horrible things by the short-term and long-term effects of tyrants and warmongers playing games with the lives of millions. Second, this is a pretty stark indication that numerous independent groups are picking up the concept of hostage-taking--consider the different outcomes of the recent kidnappings involving Chinese, Japanese, and Italian nationals. If the same, or even allied, groups were involved in those separate kidnappings, it's likely either more people would have died or no one would have died, and a full release would have occurred at once or been impossible. Un-fucking-believeable, what we're watching unfold.
It's times like this that I like to look at images such as this, to remind me of how ultimately small and petty our fights and conflicts are in the face of the cosmos.
Steve in CO
http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire...p-
9916819c.html
A man convicted of molesting two boys figured there was only one way out of California's hospital for the criminally insane, where he was stuck indefinitely after being labeled a sexually violent predator.
After maintaining his innocence for nearly two decades, James Rodriguez realized he would have to say he committed the crimes that put him in prison and then in Atascadero State Hospital.
There was only one problem - Rodriguez says he never molested the boys in the first place. So he had to learn how to play the part of a sex offender - just what he would have to say about an attraction to young boys, how he knew it was wrong but couldn't stop. It was the only way to persuade the hospital staff that he had learned the error of his ways and should eventually be set free.
"I went and hung out with the pedophiles," said Rodriguez, now 43. "I got into their heads and figured out what to say and what not to say. (One pedophile) grilled me for hours and asked me all these questions. Then he'd say, 'No, don't say that, say this.'"
The doctors believed him."
LaL: what evidence do you have to support your idea that Bush will bring any results in the war on terror or the economy? He has only made things worse on both fronts. All the results are promised for the future...
You think he's a rich tough guy. So what? What have his policies done for you or for the US lately but get us into deeper shit?
Bush will give the "thumbs down" to Fallujah on national TV from Redskins stadium while the frenzied crowd chants "war president"!
Not only did Bush I build an actual coalition, he knew better than to try to occupy Iraq, remember? However, that doesn't make me like him any better. After all, Poppy is Poppy.
But for sheer unadulterated idiocy, corruption and purblind stubbornness, no one touches Dubya.
We had been under the impression that he had been blowing the hell out of Fallujah. Fucking things up during the various "cease-fires" too.
Or did you mean get the hell out of Fallujah?
so true incognito, was reading story in the guardian and had a link to Blogs for Bush, I just couldn't resist taking a peek at the site...Jeebus Christ, the nonsense that they are spewing is amazing....complete lack of any critical thinking, just slamming Kerry for having an SUV, and praising their boy king...ad nauseum!
If the shrub is really going to make this call on his own, then the answer is easy, he will order the assualt, casualties be damned.
Here we have a macho cowboy facing down some outlaws who dragged his partners through the street and hung them like pigs from a bridge.
Here we have a macho preznit who has to choose between killing hundreds more innocent people, maybe thousands, or be seen as backing down and appearing weak.
Here we have a lying fraud who led the nation to war for nothing and the whole thing is going up in smoke, requiring ever more desperate actions to save it. The plan is now to shock and awe the insurgents, and any who might be tempted to support them, by sacraficing Fallujah and making it an example. It's a big gamble, if it backfires, all is lost. But they must feel the place will come apart before the election if they do not try to beat them into submission now, before it's too late.
Just my guess, if shrub really is making the call, and his neo-con advisors.
Perhaps Bush wishes to synch up the levelling of Falluja with Sharon's targeted assassination of Arafat.
Well, Bush does believe he's living out the End of Days, doesn't he? At least, this is what the infamous Anonymous Sources close to The Family claim.
Your leaders can't protect you, but they can get you killed.
If history is any judge, W will send the Marines in guns blazing... Not that there is a good option, but W will probably pick the worst option.
I'm praying there are some Generals with enuf balls to talk him out of it, because you can be sure Colin will bend over and then bitch later that he tried to stop the mistake.
What a useful idiot for the neocons. He confuses rank with power and deludes himself that he's putting the brakes on them, when all he's really doing is aiding them.
So many people in the middle think "well, if Colin's with Bush" it must be the right thing to do... Only later does Colin say what he really thinks.
It's not Vietnam. It's the Warsaw ghetto, or Wounded Knee.
um, at the knee big foot lead mostly widows and orphans, and the 7th used maxim guns. highly asymetric, like "armed" vs "not".
is it nam? no pla experience to draw on, but independent invention is a possibility. is it warsaw? nope.
juan cole is worth a read today. like most days.
But for sheer unadulterated idiocy, corruption and purblind stubbornness, no one touches Dubya.
Tena
Please, qualify it with OPEN. All administrations are corrupt and self centered. Bushco is open and stubborn about it.
Don't get me wrong, they still act secretive, but when they get caught they don't give a shit.
"Sent people over the edge"? What the hell is Daniel talking about?
Jude, that's why I think we're all going down the toilet and there's nothing we can do to stop it. You have these deranged brownshirts highly radicalized. I met one on another website the other day and you could tell he knew his whole movement was wrong but it was like he couldn't help himself by keeping on doing what he was doing. Isn't that insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?
It should be noted for the liberals who despite it all still want to believe in the best intentions, that the myth of "minimal civilian casualties" in just that, a myth. The US has never has a true concern over that. It's just something that is said to the public and always has been.
In war history you find the ideological discussions ranged from bombing military targets with no regard for civilian life or bombing to intentionally destroy civilian life as a way of destroying the enemy. The first of these should not be confused with the myth we hold dear today, that the US regrets every civilian death. It just means they concentrate on military targets, with no real concern for civilian life. I'm sure this view is represented at the Pentagon by someone.
The other view has historically won out. Look at Dressden and Tokyo. In both cases there were ideological debates going on (we only knew about many years later) between going for military targets, civilians be damned, or going espressly for high civilian casualities. In both of those cases, the latter won, and this is easily proven in history. In both cases, the US id extensive testing here in the states in order to maximize damage to civilian structures and civilian life. Nobody can claim the deaths in Tokyo were accidental. We planned it for months, years even, and the planning for it is a matter of maninstream history now. Of course at the time, and after, and still today for mainstream consumption, we are told the US never targets civilians. Targeting civilians has always been a part of war, every war, ecven war fought by the angelic warriers of the United States.
Do we actually believe things are any different now. What of that leaked report well before the war that showed the US was studying ways to target food and water in order to heghten the number of civilian casualties and increase civilian suffering. This, they think, is how you win. When Fallujah is attacked many civilian deaths, intentional ones, and expect a numb media completely confident every last one of them was accidental and our sensitive president regrets to his soul.
If we had any regrets about civilian life, we would attack Fallujah. As someone up post said, why now, two months from turnover? WHat is to be gained, other than points for President Ain't Gonna Get Kicked Around. This attack is for approval points. And as long as AMericans keep giving them to presidents (including Clinton) who attack at will this will be the way it works.
Sick
Rick in TX:
Sounds like you're a Tickethead, from your "FIRST TIME (Caller)", LONG TIME (Listener)" comment.
That's from the Rhiner/Williams show, I recall...
I used to live in the mid-cities myself....
If we had any regrets about civilian life, we would NOT attack Fallujah...
obviously, is what I meant in the last paragraph of my rant above.
Typing fast. Righteous anger.
2 coalition kia on the water at bassra.
is it nam? no pla experience to draw on, but independent invention is a possibility. is it warsaw? nope.
I think the attempts to compare this to Lebanon, Vietnam or the Occupied Territories are pointless.
This is a new breed of shitstorm, a sui generis. This is an Iraq.
I don't understand. June 30 is just a month and a half away. Why create a fireball now, if you're planning to "leave".
It's all about fulfilling the Scriptures, donchaknow...
"Your liberal lies are not being heard and are nay laughed at in the heartland."
That's some funny shit.
*pinches little rascal's cheek*
THanks for clearing that up Joe, thought you had a split personality going there for a second.
Juan Cole has more, northsylvania
and while you are over there, don't forget to read entry by William R. Polk. sooner or later, preferably sooner, we are going to have to figure out how to pull out of this quagmire. and vietnam, or not, this is a qaugmire.
But for sheer unadulterated idiocy, corruption and purblind stubbornness, no one touches Dubya. sorry tenna, i needed a way to end my post and the thing i was going to say, well it might have got me in trouble.
I don't understand. June 30 is just a month and a half away. Why create a fireball now, if you're planning to "leave".
It's all about fulfilling the Scriptures, donchaknow...
dave
http://tompaine.com/blog.cfm/ID/9942
link
With Iraqi sovereignty only 10 weeks away, and nary a plan in sight, it's now clear that the kind of sovereignty Iraq will enjoy will approximate that of the U.S. Virgin Islands, i.e., nil.
Yesterday Paul Wolfowitz, the neocon Pentagon deputy secretary and his mini-me, Marc Grossman from the State Department, made clear that the transitional Iraqi government will be virtually powerless. It will have no ability to make laws and won't be able to interfere with U.S. military actions in Iraq. U.S. commanders will control all Iraqi army, police and security officials. The biggest change is that Czar Paul Bremer will be replaced by Czar John Negroponte, whose title will be "ambassador."
Apparently the new definition of ambassador, under the Imperial America banner, is a person who tells other countries what to do. Asked if anti-American candidates might run in the Iraqi elections, Grossman said (apparently with a straight face): "That's why we are going to have an embassy there, and it's going to have a lot of people and an ambassador." Asked by Sen. John Corzine about the possibility that a new Iraqi government post-June 30 might do something opposed to U.S. foreign policy, Grossman said that is "why we want to have an American ambassador in Iraq."
Maybe they ought to build that embassy in Fallujah.
"Your liberal lies are not being heard and are nay laughed at in the heartland."
If a liberal lie is ignored in the heart land, does it still make a laugh?
I think the attempts to compare this to Lebanon, Vietnam or the Occupied Territories are pointless.
Exactly. Bush has started a holy war, whether he intended to or not. We will have repercussions from Iraq for decades to come, not to mention our status in the world community.
Apparently the new definition of ambassador, under the Imperial America banner, is a person who tells other countries what to do.
I think they learned this from the British.
I don't understand. June 30 is just a month and a half away. Why create a fireball now, if you're planning to "leave".
Because this is how you deal with terrorists, and prove to the rest of the world that you are superior to their cowardly tactics:
you send a lot of heavily armed people into an area, and kill everything that moves. It proves you are not to be f*cked with.
Rome did it in Jerusalem, in 70 C.E. In response to an attempted rebellion, they beseiged the town, and killed everyone inside. According to Josephus, a contemporary Jewish historian, the streets were knee deep in blood.
It was the beginning of the Jewish diaspora.
But the Romans were "bad." And we are "good." So if we do that, it will be a good thing.
And besides, who cares what history says? We'll all be dead by then. (well, that's what George told Woodward).
"Your liberal lies are not being heard and are nay laughed at in the heartland."
That's some funny shit.
*pinches little rascal's cheek*
zig for great justice
http://justworldnews.org/archive...ves/
000619.html
"Believe it or not, despite President Bush's unpopularity, Senator Kerry has to walk a razor-thin line with active duty military. As active duty military, myself, I speak to lots of soldiers about what's going on with the war, election, 9/11 commission, etc. President Bush's attacks on Senator Kerry have been effective. There's a real discomfort I can see with Kerry when it comes to taxes and national security. The inaccuracies of the portrayal have been well-documented but that doesn't seem to trickle down to the soldiers I talk to"
Robert M. Jeffers
No, because we will NEVER leave. Three bases built remember.
We like how snarky idiots every so often feel the need to explain how Iraq is not Vietnam, there are no swamps, etc.
Iraq is an illegal war of conquest justified by racist American imperialism, but begun without respect to inconvenient realities, relying on exploitation of the lower military in battle while exploiting the "hero" thing at home. The Americans talk about "fighting" a given political entity (the most important thing being our Saddamite control over Iraq) while the target speaks of a national entity to which the most important thing is independence.
By these particular lights, Iraq is RIGHT DEAD FUCKING EXACTLY VIETNAM.
More importantly, there are certain things Vietnam means to both sides. No leftist is going to complain if the Army resurrects the same typefaces it favored in Vietnam, even though that would be "just like Vietnam"-the thing complained about here are certain crucial transgressions. The people insisting that it "isn't Vietnam" invariably bring up things that do not matter, like the fact that Vietnam was against "Communism" (whatever that means), there were more deaths in Vietnam (after TEN FUCKING YEARS, real good comparison buddies), etc. So too bad if the uniforms aren't to spec for the re-enactment crowd. This is Vietnam, in all the ways that nothing we did after leaving Saigon should ever have been like Vietnam.
Oh, come on. There's plenty of precedent for "ambassador" meaning "someone who tells another government what to do."
The name Henry Cabot Lodge, among many others, springs readily to mind.
2 coalition kia on the water at bassra.
Well, in Basrah, a sail powered traditional gulf craft, the dhow (shades of Sinbad), was used in an attempt to blow up the Khor al-Amaya terminal. Coalition sent a rubber dinghy to inspect the dhow, which blew up as the dinghy was circling, tossing the craft out of the water.
Joe Briefcase
http://
www.informationclearingho...article6081.htm
Burying Genocide - The UN "Oil For Food" Programme
Half a million dead Iraqi children are deemed irrelevant in coverage of allegations of UN oil for food' programme corruption
04/23/04 "Media Lens" -- As Media Lens has reported on many occasions, mainstream media show an astonishing capacity for overlooking western crimes against the people of Iraq: a country utterly devastated by two US-UK wars, and by twelve years of sanctions that resulted in more than a million civilian deaths.
Current coverage of allegations of corruption in the UN's oil for food¹ programme is a dramatic case in point.
The oil for food programme was set up in 1996 by Denis Halliday, then the UN¹s humanitarian coordinator in Iraq, as an ameliorative measure to counter some of the worst effects of sanctions. In 1998, Halliday resigned in protest at the devastating effects of the revamped programme. "These sanctions," he told journalist John Pilger, "represented ongoing warfare against the people of Iraq. They became, in my view, genocidal in their impact over the years, and the Security Council maintained them, despite its full knowledge of their impact, particularly on the children of Iraq." (John Pilger, 'Who Are The Extremists?', Daily Mirror, August 22, 2003)
In a May 2000 interview, Halliday told us:
²Washington, and to a lesser extent London, have deliberately played games through the Sanctions Committee with this programme for years - it's a deliberate ploy... That's why I've been using the word 'genocide', because this is a deliberate policy to destroy the people of Iraq. I'm afraid I have no other view at this late stage.² (Interview with David Edwards, May 2000, http://www.medialens.org/article...001/iraqdh.htm)
Halliday¹s allegations, which could hardly be more serious, were based on his own experience in Iraq, and also on detailed reports by the UN and aid agencies studying the effects of the sanctions regime.
Hans von Sponeck, Halliday's successor as UN humanitarian coordinator, also resigned. In his letter of resignation, von Sponeck wrote:
"How long should the civilian population of Iraq be exposed to such punishment for something they have never done?" (John Pilger, 'Squeezed to death', The Guardian, March 4, 2000)
Why create a fireball now
Because the fireball worshipers are in charge?
No, because we will NEVER leave. Three bases built remember.
Well, we certainly can't leave and let the terrorists think they scared us off....
You see how the reasoning works? It's very circular, and always self-justifying. All violence is the fault of the victims of our violence. We don't want to hurt them, but they force us to. We don't want to be heavy handed occupiers, but what choice do we have? If we don't do it, we end up looking weak.
And on, and on, and on....
Why create a fireball now?
Someone-besides enjoying entirely too much trust of the government and the Inherently Good Baby Bomber-needs to read this.
kei & yuri
Read all the previous posts. Iraq was in the planning for years. It is one link in a string of bases running from Europe through Kosovo and Afghanistan into the middle east. Those bases allow rapid response by US forces to anywhere in the world, and may act as a buffer against Russia and China when peak Oil comes to pass.
Rome did it in Jerusalem, in 70 C.E. In response to an attempted rebellion, they beseiged the town, and killed everyone inside. According to Josephus, a contemporary Jewish historian, the streets were knee deep in blood.
I've never believed in the 'knee deep in blood' allegory. I mean, that's a whole lot of blood.
Robert M. Jeffers
Terrorists have very little to do with it. More like global positioning for rescource control.
I am scared to death with Bush in the White House. He refuses to listen to a range of opinions, relying on the yes men only. The State Dept has been left totally out of the loop on this, and Colin Powell was the only one with military experience, for fuck's sake!!
I have a hard time believing that the military still supports Bush overwhemingly. His poll numbers were down last I saw.
Give me John Kerry any day over this numbskull.
Well someone just needs to send those active duty soldiers to Republicansforkerry04.com, or RepublicansagainstBush.com, or RepublicansforKerry.com (different than the first - no "04") or Veteransagainstbush.com
Anonymous, what are you up to? You've posted one anti-Kerry comment after another here. Are you trying to start an argument, like, for points in your game? Or what?
kei & yuri,
its not the swamps. political and combat team formation in all parts of iraq are unlikely to be identical to those in indo china.
Woot:
Cuties boobies link ever. Thanks. 
The UN oil-for-food fiasco clearly helped no one in Iraq beyond getting some food in there. Washington and London rigged the whole thing to ensure collective punishment aimed at Iraqis took place, and if Saddam managed to rig enough through his own lackeys and allies to slough off lots of money, it's even more proof that the whole Iraq sanctions program was a grand fuckup from the beginning. From what I've heard, every cent from oil sales went to an escrow account, and *every* transaction using this account had to be approved by a US/UK-controlled committee that tended to err on the side of paranoia. Considering the amount of medical necessities that were blocked on the grounds that they were "dual-use materials", if Saddam and his buddies managed to eat into even the amount of money authorized for spending, then Iraqis got screwed even worse than we can imagine.
Now, I could see 'toe deep in blood'.....
I'm so glad the Führer is taking control of all the military decisions. Those generals are always way too cautious.
Don't think Fallujah, think Stalingrad.
to the bum kisser who calls himself "Liberals are Liars": You liberals know nothing, and Bash Bush for no reason other than your envy at his huge success.
Yeah, right. He's having so much success in Iraq!
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!
Those bases allow rapid response by US forces to anywhere in the world, and may act as a buffer against Russia and China when peak Oil comes to pass.
Another example, however, of the Bush screw up of the situation.
Was reading an article this morning (where, oh where, now?) about how materiel is simply not available, since it's all in use in Iraq.
Logistics is the key, it seems. Incredibly labor intensive and expensive to move men and materiel from here to there. We like to keep stuff there, for that reason. But all the stuff there, is now in Iraq.
Worthless to have strings of bases like a necklace of pearls around the globe, if the stuff they are supposed to use is all in use, and no more to go around.
Good to know the "adults" are in charge, and that Rummy understands this better than the military professionals.....
Mortar attack on CPA HQ in Nassiriyah. 2 Italians wounded.
Seamen killed or wounded a Khor al-Amaya are from US 5th Fleet
http://www.commondreams.org/view...s04/0301-
12.htm
"As long as the US chooses the Grab the Oil alternative, the implications for national policy are inescapable. The combination of all these facts—fixed supply, rapid depletion, lack of alternatives, severity of consequences, and hostility of current stockholding countries—drive the US to HAVE to adopt an aggressive (pre-emptive) military posture and to carry out a nakedly colonial expropriation of resources from weaker countries around the world.
This is why the US operates some 700 military bases around the world and spends over half a trillion dollars per year on military affairs, more than all the rest of the world—its “allies” included—combined. This is why the Defense Department’s latest Quadrennial Review stated, “The US must retain the capability to send well-armed and logistically supported forces to critical points around the globe, even in the face of enemy opposition.” This is why Pentagon brass say internally that current force levels are inadequate to the strategic challenges they face and that they will have to re-instate the draft after the 2004 elections."
http://
www.fromthewilderness.com...finite_war.html
" Every oil shock since 1973 has corresponded to or promptly followed a war. To understand why, we have to account for the concrete and current structure of the world capitalist system.
The U.S. is now unarguably hegemonic. U.S. armed forces control every major sea lane, and it has ringed the world with military bases8. U.S. forces are the international police of the Gulf States, where, by the way, imperialist oil corporations extract the oil and pay rents to client regimes."
Incognito, maybe there was a bad pothole problem?
Was reading an article this morning (where, oh where, now?) about how materiel is simply not available, since it's all in use in Iraq.
What's scary is Osama or whoever is in charge of al Qaeda these days knows this. We're completely pinned down.
I've never believed in the 'knee deep in blood' allegory. I mean, that's a whole lot of blood.
Most historians don't believe it, either. But they do believe the stories of the carnage: women stabbed through the children they held, men disemboweled and dying of their wounds, etc., etc.
Grisly stuff. Make Gibson's Passion look rather like a picnic, in some ways.
I doubt the U.S. soldiers in Fallujah will be any more compassionate or squeamish in the heat of battle....
Robert M. Jeffers
Draft.
Kerry called for 40k new troops, do you think he wanted all volunteers?
No matter who gets in office a draft will come. It will come due to the rescource problem. Not only oil but water.
Both Republicans and Democrats are quite aware of those problems. Both realize just how many rescources the US uses.
Empire sucks!
Robert - this is OT, but since you brought up our bases around the world it is slightly relevant. I saw a report, on my local news, of all places, about our military stationed in South Korea. That is tough duty - the Koreans are sick of us. There was some movement during the last year toward opening the DMZ. There's been some cooperation between North and the South, and some movement of people who have been allowed to visit family on the other side.
Our base in South Korea is one of the most strategic we have, because there's China right next door. I sometimes wonder if at least some of the overblown rhetoric we hear about how evil the north is isn't propaganda aimed at keeping us pissed off at and worried by North Korea. I wonder if it isn't all at least partly about the fact that the U.S. would be in strategic hell if the two got together and kicked the U.S. out.
Just and idle thought, but one I keep having.
Draft.
Kerry called for 40k new troops, do you think he wanted all volunteers?
It would be his undoing.
No draft will be fair. College students, wealthy kids, etc., etc., will all get deferments, dodges, escape clauses, what have you. At the height of Vietnam, when people were getting chewed up in that meat-grinder, millions legally evaded service.
It would be even more unbalanced without a raging war like that one to justify the system.
And I honestly don't believe the majority of Americans would support it, unless, of course, their children were exempt....
Anonymous - Lie. Kerry specifically said today when asked about the possibility of conscription: "No draft."
Meanwhile
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/scien...ure/
3643643.stm
Dr John McCauley, of the Institute for Animal Health, said the virus could be 20 times worse than the 1918 pandemic.
That is estimated to have killed 40 million people, with later influenza outbreaks also killing millions more.
Dr McCauley said there was a realistic chance of the current avian flu virus evolving to threaten people directly.
Dr McCauley, whose research into avian influenza is being funded by the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council (BBSRC), was speaking to BBC News Online.
Practical possibility
He said: "At the moment the virus affects humans only after transferring to them from poultry. In 1997, six people died in Hong Kong after 18 became infected. This year, 23 patients have died from a total of about 34 people infected in south-east Asia.
"That means there is a mortality rate from some strains of highly pathogenic avian infuenza of between 30 and 60% of those infected. In 1918, the rate was about 1%.
AVIAN FLU ALERT
First jumped "species barrier" from bird to human in 1997
In humans, symptoms include fever, sore throat, and cough
Types which threaten humans are influenza A subtypes H5N1 and H9N2
Q&A Avian flu
"There's no reason to say the virus will not continue to evolve so that it can transmit directly from one person to another. There's a realistic chance that could happen.
"If it does - if the virus becomes adapted to man and can transmit efficiently - there'll be no point in selling a vaccine. You might as well give it away at that stage, because money would be meaningless. The world order would change." "
Iraq is the least of our worries.
LaL is almost certainly satirical.
Anonymous - Lie. Kerry specifically said today when asked about the possibility of conscription: "No draft."
Tena
Time will tell.
Want to link to his quote?
Clinton said he DID NOT have sex with that woman. But we all know differently, don't we.
Thanks for the booby pic - very cute.
As most people here are saying, we're definitely going into Fallujah to wipe out the "terrorists". We just can't back down now. It's a macho thing.
And by every indication we're just going to walk right into the worst mistake of this whole fucked up war.
And I honestly don't believe the majority of Americans would support it, unless, of course, their children were exempt....
I would. I've been thinking about enlisting in the Army. Just got the information for the local recruiter's office in fact.
It seems that Bush has royally fucked this one up and the only solution I can think of is to flood the zone with soliders and secure the country. It's a terrible situation but these leftist bleatings from people like Anonymous don't do anything to make the situation better.
We need to prevent Iraq from turning into another Afghanistan. We can't cut and run. I'll join the Army if I have to.
Robert M. Jeffers
http://www.suntimes.com/output/g...dt-
greel23.html
There's a sign on the horizon, no bigger than a man's hand, that there's a military draft in the works. The Defense Department has announced that Selective Service is making preparations for another draft, "in case one is needed." The New York Times in an inane editorial pleads with the president to articulate a goal for the war that if it "was clear and comprehensive and people understood how to reach it, then Mr. Bush could . . . even bolster the desperately straitened military with a draft if Americans understood the need to sacrifice."
If the editorial writers of the New York Times are talking about a new draft that would send young men and women to die in the deserts of Iraq fighting crazy religious fanatics, then the idea is certainly being whispered about in the upper echelons of American society. A draft would not be proposed before the election -- if it were, Bush would be wiped out in a landslide. But a wise person would not bet against the draft being proposed next January.
What in the world is the Times talking about? Why should Americans sacrifice for the Iraq War? Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination can one seriously argue that the war in Iraq is to defend vital American interests. We found that there were no weapons of mass destruction there and no connection with al-Qaida or the Sept. 11 attack. The only issue seems to be whether we can impose democracy on Iraqis who don't seem seriously to want it or to prevent a civil war that will happen anyway as soon as our army leaves. Americans are supposed to accept the need to sacrifice their unwilling sons and daughters to fight for such absurd goals?
There are many authoritarian liberals who have a kind of illicit romance with the draft. Young people owe their a country a part of their lives, even their lives itself (not their own sons and daughters' lives, of course). Military service is good for you, some veterans insist. It will make a man out of a drifting late adolescent. What it will do for a young woman remains to be seen -- probably teach her how to live in a world where rape is commonplace.
Building up the army with a draft will serve only the needs of the Bush administration to "win" a war. Gen. Eric Shinseki, then-chief of staff of the Army, said that 200,000 would be needed to pacify Iraq. Donald Rumsfeld made fun of him in public. Now the Defense Department seems to be engaged in remote planning for a draft army that will be much larger.
How many men and women, it must be asked, will be required to pacify Iraq and to turn it into a freedom-loving democracy? How long will it take, how many lives must be sacrificed to protect the honor and the legacy of Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld and their crowd of imperialists?
Doubtless it will be argued in favor of a draft that we all must make sacrifices for a war on terrorism. It might be better if
re: Shrub's pivotal decision on Falluja:
Could there be any doubt which way he'll go?
This is the guy who pumped his arm and said, "feels good!" when informed of the opening hostilities.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/g...dt-
greel23.html
" wonder why Sen. John Kerry sounds so much like Hubert Humphrey in his support of the continuation of the war. I hope at least he makes opposition to a new draft a major issue in the election."
Old Hat-- is that really you at 6:27pm?
Anonymous, instead of posting 1000 word essays, try just posting the link.
I'm working on a song parody.
Sung to the tune "In the Ghetto"
On a cold and grey Iraq morn
another little baby child is born
In Fallujah.
(I've got the rest of the lyrics, but now I need an Elvis imitator to record it for me and I'll be set)
http://
www.democraticunderground...ess=104x1454641
"Kerry's NO-DRAFT plan to raise 40,000 additional troops and avoid reinstatement of the draft is added up this way:
1. Move some paper-pushers to combat (lots of potential there)
2. Increase enlistment with real scholarships and pay raises
3. Let troops know Special Ops will hunt al-Queda, no more invasions needed, so re-up rate goes up. "Primarily a law enforcement effort, not a full military effort", say JK.
4. Start a "Civilian Stability Corps" that would help in reconstructing Afghanistan and Iraq and relieve military pressure.
5. GET FOREIGN TROOPS TO COME INTO INSTEAD OF LEAVE IRAQ!!
http://www.candidatemap.com
"...I propose that we enlist thousands of them in a Civilian Stability Corps, a reserve organization of volunteers ready to help win the peace in troubled places. Like military reservists, they will have peacetime jobs; but in times of national need, they will be called into service to restore roads, renovate schools, open hospitals, repair power systems, draft a constitution, or build a police force. A Civilian Stability Corps can bring the best of America to the worst of the world—and reduce pressure on the military."
< Source: Kerry, John. "Protecting Our Military Families in Times of War: A Military Family Bill of Rights." March 17, 2004. http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/s..._2004_0317.html
http://technologyreports.net/sto...?articleID=2550
"On January 7, 2003, two identical bills (S.89 Senate Bill and H.R.163 House of Representatives Bill) known as the Universal National Service Act of 2003 were drafted and are waiting to be ratified. The bills call for reinstating the draft declaring that “it is the obligation of every U.S. citizen, and every other person residing in the United States, between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a two-year period of national service . . .”"
Anonymous - The link is in one of the other threads - someone else reported this earlier and has the link. It is true - Kerry said, upon being asked about it: "No draft."
What does Clinton have to do with this? Or anything else you said? By your logic - that words mean the opposite - then if Kerry said "I intend to reinstitute the draft," you would vote for him, because that would mean he wasn't going to do it. See how much sense that makes?
Clinton said he didn't have sex with that woman. You're right. How does that affect Kerry saying that he didn't intend to reinstitute the draft?
I find it hard to beleive that there are all that many " paper Pushers". After all we have already used the Guard, which weren't called into Viet nam until much later.
What does Clinton have to do with this?
Tena
As an example of a lying Democratic politician.
Don't get me wrong All politicians lie. It is just here Democrats don't seem to think their shit stinks as badly as Republican shit does.
You quoted a rumor about Kerry's claims. I posted quotes. You probably didn't have a chance to read them.
Kerry's quotes are a fallacy. I can't recall the exact story now, but there is something about %20 casuality rates being unsustainable, and we are nearing that level now.
Clearly there are not enough "paper pushers" to offset the need. And there were not enough volunteers before Iraq, with no major increase in volunteerism after 911.
So realistically those troops will have to come from a draft.
Walmart is getting into the Private Security Forces business and will be offering temporary health insurance (life ins. not available) to any of its employees willing to deploy to Iraq. Rumor has it they are after the contract to protect the green zone after June 30.
Why resort to the draft when the market can fill the demand?
Fellow Merkans. On the eve of ShockAwe2, I want to make something very plain to enemies of freedom in the Homeland. Terrists read the internet. They take comfort in words of defeat and surrender and ap-ease-ment. Ap-ease-ment. They are encouraged by disrespect of the Commander In Chief. I have, accordingly, directed the Attorney General to use the carnivore system to identify quislings for consideration of further action. You should know that when you question your country you attack freedom itself. Thank you. And may God bless our great nation again.
Anonymous - that's your conclusion, alright. It is in contravention of the facts, but it's a conclusion. And there are faulty premises.
There is every reason to believe that President Kerry will be able to mend some international fences, in which case we could find ourselves with either a real, willing coalition to get us all out of there, or a UN run situation, which would also bring in more troops.
anonymous: you are so wrong...conservative bullshit does stink more than liberal bullshit.
Tena
"Anonymous - that's your conclusion, alright. It is in contravention of the facts, but it's a conclusion. And there are faulty premises."
http://
www.democraticunderground...ess=104x1454641
"Kerry's NO-DRAFT plan to raise 40,000 additional troops and avoid reinstatement of the draft is added up this way:
1. Move some paper-pushers to combat (lots of potential there)
2. Increase enlistment with real scholarships and pay raises
3. Let troops know Special Ops will hunt al-Queda, no more invasions needed, so re-up rate goes up. "Primarily a law enforcement effort, not a full military effort", say JK.
4. Start a "Civilian Stability Corps" that would help in reconstructing Afghanistan and Iraq and relieve military pressure.
5. GET FOREIGN TROOPS TO COME INTO INSTEAD OF LEAVE IRAQ!!
http://www.candidatemap.com
"...I propose that we enlist thousands of them in a Civilian Stability Corps, a reserve organization of volunteers ready to help win the peace in troubled places. Like military reservists, they will have peacetime jobs; but in times of national need, they will be called into service to restore roads, renovate schools, open hospitals, repair power systems, draft a constitution, or build a police force. A Civilian Stability Corps can bring the best of America to the worst of the world—and reduce pressure on the military."
< Source: Kerry, John. "Protecting Our Military Families in Times of War: A Military Family Bill of Rights." March 17, 2004. http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/s..._2004_0317.html
Prove me wrong according to kerry's claims? They were mine made up from whole cloth, those are HIS own claims.
They just don't make sense, except the more foriegn troops thing. But if the US doesn't allow those troops any autonomy, then they will not be coming.
Yes, that really was me, Alex.
I don't know. I really have mixed feelings about Iraq now. The pictures of the coffins coming back and the Tillman story made me think twice about my position on the situation in Iraq. Don't get me wrong, I hate Bush and his idiotic policies and I never supported the invasion but there's nothing we can do to make the situation in Iraq go away.
I probably won't end up joining the Army but it's an option I am considering. Maybe I'm just being young and stupid but I think if the US just pulled out, it would leave the country in absolute chaos -- yet another terrorist breeding ground like Afghanistan. It's a choice between a bad option and an even worse option.
It's pretty clear that we need to do something to secure Iraq in the short term. I haven't heard any ideas beyond getting as many boots on the ground as possible that will do anything to at least alleviate the problems there.
I don't know. I'm really confused about what I can do to help.
Iraq is in a bad way now and it's only going to get worse.
" They were mine made up from whole cloth, those are HIS own claims."
Sorry, I meant WERE NOT.
Something else missed
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2...ain613305.shtml
(CBS/AP) Retirees who qualify for Medicare would see their health benefits cut or eliminated under a proposal approved Thursday by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
The commission voted 3 to 1 in approval of the proposed rule, with three Republicans in favor and one Democrat opposing it.
Under the rule, employers can coordinate health benefits for retirees who are eligible for Medicare or a similar state-sponsored health benefit. Employers had been prohibited from doing so since 2001, after a federal appeals court concluded that coordinating health benefits was illegal age discrimination.
"Such benefits are provided on a voluntary basis at the discretion of each employer and the Commission is acting to preserve these valuable benefits for retirees," Commission Chair Cari Dominguez, a Republican, said in a statement.
The Times reports that several commission members argued that employers are more likely to continue providing health benefits to retirees under 65 if they are allowed to reduce or eliminate benefits for those 65 and older.
The rule change has the backing of the American Benefits Council - a trade group representing large employers - as well as the National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers.
The language of the rule adopted by the panel says that it "is not intended to encourage employers to eliminate any retiree health benefits they may currently provide."
Before it becomes final, the proposed rule must go through further review by federal agencies and the White House Office of Management and Budget.
The AARP, which represents millions of retirees, has campaigned against the rule change and told the New York Times that it will "explore a range of different steps, including litigation" to block the rule if it is not changed.
"More than 12 million Medicare beneficiaries receive benefits from their former employers," Michael Naylor, the group's advocacy director, said in a statement. "AARP is concerned that this rule may jeopardize those benefits."
On its web site, the retiree lobbying group furthermore notes that the new rule is identical to Section 631 of the Senate’s version of the Medicare Rx bill, which was killed by Congress "after hearing from tens of thousands of AARP members. Unfortunately, the EEOC has turned a deaf ear to those same concerns and is now trying to accomplish through the backdoor what Congress refused to do directly in the law."
The commission had the support of Rep. John Boehner (GOP, Ohio), chairman of the House Workforce Committee. He said the rule would "help preserve important retiree health benefits for millions of American seniors."
The Ohio representative had sent a letter to Dominguez in December, pushing for the rule. The letter was also signed by Reps. Robert Andrews, D-N.J., and Sam Johnson, R-Texas.
Stuart Ishimaru, th
The other night on the Majority Report, they were talking about the campaign. Basically, what was said was that Kerry doesn't have time or money or energy to spend doing a lot of base appeasement work if he's going to defeat Bush. He knows we are out here - he knows that very well. But he needs to concentrate on the undecideds, and those people are moderate. A lot of them are Republicans.
Rove knows this. So I begin to get suspicious of people who don't stick to the topic but on every thread begin to trash Kerry. I don't mind anyone having a differing viewpoint on Kerry than mine, but I do take issue when someone spends 90% of their comment time trashing Kerry, usually off topic.
Just saying...
%20 casuality rates being unsustainable, and we are nearing that level now.
No we're not. We've sustained 4575 casualties, and we have about 130,000 troops over there. That's 3.5%.
Anonymous, again, just post the link and maybe a paragraph! Stop posting the entire article!
Clinton said --
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Eric-are you joking with the bit about "political schmuggedy schmuggedy noonooo are unlikely to be exactly the same, and in Vietnamese, as they were in Indochina"? No shit Shi'ite Khomeinist irregulars are not exactly like secular communist recon! What it comes down it is, the criteria we're looking at are primarily about us. We are in the same place we were in Vietnam, even if Iraq is not Vietnam but Iraq (surprise!). It is disturbing that we would make these same "mistakes", but the smell of frying children is actually a policy, there's a reason we keep making tese same "mistakes" over and over. Are the statements "stay the course", "we're here now so we might as well stay", etc not the very soul of Vietnam? Was the June 30 Bullshit and the attempt to create our own Baath-pure Iraqi Provisionals not "Vietnamization"? Is staying the course not the light at the end of the tunnel? Is Kerry not after peace with honor?
Old Hat
Clearly they are not entire.
Maybe if you went to the link and read them you would not be so confused.
so in other words, we could sustain a whole 'nuther 21,000 casualties or thereabouts...this is great news!!!!
Clearly they are not entire.
Maybe if you went to the link and read them you would not be so confused.
Actually, they're the limit of what Haloscan can post. So stop pegging Haloscan at the limit and just post the link, newbie.
Asshole Dennis Miller was calling for Falluja to be punished the other night. He even found another right wing black woman to cheerlead for Condosleaza.
IF Kerry manages to win and get in the White House, there better be trials for these Neocon traitor bastards or they will continue to rise like the Nazis in Germany. They need to be stopped now or eventually it will be too late.
I probably won't end up joining the Army but it's an option I am considering. Maybe I'm just being young and stupid but I think if the US just pulled out, it would leave the country in absolute chaos -- yet another terrorist breeding ground like Afghanistan.
Step back and look at it from another angle.
If you were a Russian would you consider joining the Russian army because you think more bombs in Grozny would make Chechnya less of a terrorist breeding ground.
Then try to imagine what it's like spending time in 110 degree weather with people shooting at you. That's hard core. You could come back damaged for life, or not come back at all.
That being said, if you have some kind of a code that would compel you to do it out of some sense of honor, you have my respect. Good luck if you wind up joining.
add one bulgarian doi to the 2 italian wounded, and the 4 usn wounded (the latter two also caught by earlier commenters).
a pretty good day for the opfors, and the falluja/karbala/najef powderkegs aren't even lit.
could someone post a like to the wesley clark attack-in-force comment please?
No we're not. We've sustained 4575 casualties, and we have about 130,000 troops over there. That's 3.5%.
NTodd
So you think there are only 4500 wounded.
Really, you think that is it?
http://www.underreported.com/mod...rticle&
sid=1202
" The number of U.S. casualties from Operation Iraqi Freedom -- troops killed, wounded or evacuated due to injury or illness -- has passed 9,000, according to new Pentagon data.
In addition to the 397 service members who have died and the 1,967 wounded, 6,861 troops were medically evacuated for non-combat conditions between March 19 and Oct. 30, the Army Surgeon General's office said."
Twice as many as you claim.
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?Stor...13-074311-
4128r
U.S. casualties from Iraq war top 9,000
By Mark Benjamin
Published 11/14/2003 2:06 PM
WASHINGTON, Nov. 14 (UPI) -- The number of U.S. casualties from Operation Iraqi Freedom -- troops killed, wounded or evacuated due to injury or illness -- has passed 9,000, according to new Pentagon data.
In addition to the 397 service members who have died and the 1,967 wounded, 6,861 troops were medically evacuated for non-combat conditions between March 19 and Oct. 30, the Army Surgeon General's office said.
That brings total casualties among all services to more than 9,200, and represents an increase of nearly 3,000 non-combat medical evacuations reported since the first week of October. The Army offered no immediate explanation for the increase.
A leading veterans' advocate expressed concern.
"We are shocked at the dramatic increase in casualties," said Steve Robinson, executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Center.
Of the non-combat medical evacuations:
-- 2,464 were for injuries, such as those sustained in vehicle accidents.
-- 4,397 were due to illness; 504 of those were classified as psychiatric, 378 as neurological, and another 150 as neurosurgery.
"We are especially concerned about the psychological and neurological evacuations from this war," Robinson said. "We request a clarification of the types of illnesses people are suffering from so we do not have a repeat of the first Gulf War. We need to understand the nature and types of illnesses so scientists can determine if significant trends are occurring."
Army Surgeon General's Office spokeswoman Virginia Stephanakis told United Press International Thursday that it is misleading to combine psychiatric and neurological problems. Some of the neurosurgery might be operations on the spinal cord, for example.
"Those are apples and oranges," she said.
She also said that some troops evacuated for psychiatric reasons later returned after getting a rest.
In early October, the Army Surgeon General's office said 3,915 soldiers had been evacuated from Operation Iraqi Freedom for non-combat injuries and illnesses, including 478 with psychological problems and 387 for neurological reasons.
NTodd
Those 9,200 came from a UPI 11/14/2003 story.
Do you think we have substantially less since then?
Actually, they're the limit of what Haloscan can post. So stop pegging Haloscan at the limit and just post the link, newbie.
Old Hat
DVDA crackhead.
That being said, if you have some kind of a code that would compel you to do it out of some sense of honor, you have my respect.
I feel like I have to serve this country as fucked up as it is in some way instead of reading Eschaton all day.
Last night, I had a strange experience with someone returning from Iraq that made me rethink everything.
there's nothing we can do to make the situation in Iraq go away
Oh, there was and still is plenty of things we could do or could have done to make Iraq go away. If we would have ever been serious about creating a stable Iraq after SH, we would have immediately put an Arab/Islamic face on the reconstruction effort. Make it an Arab problem with US support.
Look, guys, it's the one of the nader trolls.
Ignore him.
Another Ntodd
http://coloradoluis.typepad.com/
...underrepor.html
"But what about the wounded? How many are there? What are their stories? What are their typical injuries? Courtesy of Cowboy Kahlil, I found this report from retired Colonel David Hackworth, who is now with a group called Soldiers For The Truth that follows the war in Iraq and tracks the underreported stories. The numbers are truly shocking:
Even I – and I deal with that beleaguered land seven days a week – was staggered when a Pentagon source gave me a copy of a Nov. 30 dispatch showing that since George W. Bush unleashed the dogs of war, our armed forces have taken 14,000 casualties in Iraq – about the number of warriors in a line tank division. We have the equivalent of five combat divisions plus support for a total of about 135,000 troops deployed in the Iraqi theater of operations, which means we’ve lost the equivalent of a fighting division since March. At least 10 percent of the total number of Joes and Jills available to the theater commander to fight or support the occupation effort have been evacuated back to the USA! Lt. Col. Scott D. Ross of the U.S. military's Transportation Command told me that as of Dec. 23, his outfit had evacuated 3,255 battle-injured casualties and 18,717 non-battle injuries. Of the battle casualties, 473 died and 3,255 were wounded by hostile fire."
Old Hat, did you miss the part about us being the problem there? Did Kennedy's sparkly-eyed imperialism not cure you of this bullshit that we are not evil? We need to stop murdering people and then wondering why people are trying revenge, we need to start obeying and respecting the Law. This is like you're some kind of movie character (as in Dead Presidents, Set it Off, Blood In Blood Out, Boyz in the Hood, etc. Marines love re-watching those for some reason) and you think going off and joining a gang is "getting involved". It is, but not in a useful or moral or humanly acceptable way.
Questioning:
That is seriously fucked up... wait until the state will have the power to 'reprogram' convicts ...
Steve
:-/
The big news is that Dear Leader is going to make what could be the pivotal decision - whether to blow the hell out of Fallujah.
Now, let me guess... what will "dear leader" decide?
JC,
When you're happy and you know it...
bomb Iraq...
You get the rest of the tune I am sure.
:-/
Old Hat, did you miss the part about us being the problem there?
No, I didn't, but what the hell are we supposed to do? Pull out so some asshole dictator can claw his way to power and then let a civil war erupt? That hurts everyone, the United States and Iraqis.
"that we are not evil?"
kei & yuri
We, the people, are largely not evil. We, the people, are largely stupid. We beleive politicians, who we know for a fact lie to our faces.
We, the people, know our politicians are evil liars, yet out of some type of sports minded partisanship we defend them until we, the people, are blue in the face.
We, the people, get EXACTLY what we deserve for voting these scumbags in office and not voting them out.
I'm with OldHat, just post the link, dammit, no one is reading the long articles. Summarize, if you must, so we can ignore you without having to scroll so much.
Old Hat, I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts of enlisting.
Old Hat - Please think twice two hundred times before you even begin to make a decision like that. Please.
What is Old Hat going to do when he turns a corner in a hostile urban situation, fires at a moving shadow to "save his buddies" and "defend his country", and on further examination realizes he'd decapitated a little girl?
What if as happened with us your "buddies" are hostile criminals doing shit and the superiors don't care?
Chris Hedges has two books you should look at-he was a divinity student turned journalist for NYT, he was in Bosnia and Israel/Palestine. They're both nice and short, both cheap too if we remember, like six each. They're "War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning", and (more importantly in practical terms), "What Every Person Should Know About War." You really should look into these.
Anonymous - I used the figures from Lunaville, no Bush-loving blog--as much as I loathe the war and distrust the DoD, I can only really go with what has been officially reported. If you want to use a stat twice as large, fine. That's ~7%. And if you use 14k, that's ~10%. But I'd like those numbers substantiated.
Further, I'd like to know where you got the "20% isn't sustainable" notion. I take it you're not talking about unit cohesion, which usually is considered sustainable until a 50% casualty rate is sustained. So I'd be interested in your source...
Old Hat - Please think twice two hundred times before you even begin to make a decision like that. Please.
I will. Trust me, I'm not going to run off and enlist tomorrow and I don't have any illusions about what's going on over there or becoming a "hero" or anything. I'm going to think very long and very hard about this one.
"We the people" are bored silly by you, A. Give it a rest.
Liberals are Liars said:
Shut up weak kneed liberal appeasers. We are kicking ass, finally and you want to wring your hands and cry like babies. Fuck you, we are the real America.
No, *you* aren't kicking any ass. You are doing nothing more than posting messages from the comfort and safety of your momma's double-wide while our soldiers are dying in Iraq.
k&y, I'll check those books out. Thanks.
That hurts everyone...as opposed to you going over there and grenading a school.
No, I didn't, but what the hell are we supposed to do? Pull out so some asshole dictator can claw his way to power and then let a civil war erupt? That hurts everyone, the United States and Iraqis.
Old Hat
Can you be any more stupid?
That is what is happening now. No matter how long we stay it will happen.
Why?
Because there are twenty five million Iraqi's, and they live many thousands of miles away.
They have religions and tribal affiliations, all of which we have angered.
And those religions and tribal affiliations hate each other.
Even if we stay we still lose in the long run. Just how many troops are still in Kosovo?
Old Hat
I can't believe you are thinking of wasting your life for George Bush. Because that is what you would be doing if you went to Iraq.
If you need to do something, help the poor in the inner cities, join an NGO doing AIDS work in Africa
Stay away from Iraq because everything the US is doing there is turning to crap
"We the people" are bored silly by you, A. Give it a rest.
Tena
Glad for the insightful defense of Kerry's policies.
I have never seen such an indepth explanation in my life.
So, you didn't have a leg to stand on, and went with the Republican insult approach.
Worked for you, eh Condi?
I, Anonymous: by "we" we obviously meant our forces there, not Americans here at home, just like by "Israel" we usually mean the goverment and military forces of the state of Israel, not all Jews. What was it play dough said about needing geometry to get in?
Does anyone believe that Tillman's death will increase recruitment? I think it will have a small impact. I am sure the recruiters (who get bonuses) are praying so.
I just have to wonder what the commentary would be if he'd been killed in Iraq? Afghanistan I understand, Iraq I do not. Okay, I understand, I just don't agree.
old hat, i thought you were old. but i guess not. and i thouroghly respect your decision. but going into this war with bush as pres. would just be a waste of your time, and possibly your life. now if kerry becomes comm. in chief it might make more sense (remains to be seen) but fighting for your country right now would just be fighting for bushies oil buddies. of course this is just if you are really old hat. (cyberspace is weird)
and i hope everyone will go to j.cole and read entry by William R.Polk. very clear description of what a guerilla insurgency is, and very useful ideas about how to extricate ourselves from this qaugmire. one of the most significant being that we should not insinuate ourselves into the iraqi economy. and then of course there is the OIL. but you are right, sitting here reading eschaton all day is...
I've been wondering if Tillman used his status to get assigend to Afghanistan and not Iraq.
Apparently he was part of a Special Ops team that was hunting for Osama Bin Laden.
Or is that a media myth?
Anyone know?
Old Hat - If you got that feeling of needing to help your country, I suggest the CIA instead of the military. I took the various test twenty years ago when I was (guessing) about your age. They are not that hard, and I got an offer but turned it down in the end. My uncle was a spook for 40 years and really enjoyed it if you like traveling and moving around a lot.
If you got that feeling of needing to help your country, I suggest the CIA instead of the military.
A friend of mine suggested that.
Tillman was a Ranger (one step below Delta Force).
chris/tx - Yeah, that is a good idea. I'm not crazy about the CIA, but it sure beats the hell out of getting shot at 800 times a day in Iraq.
It's like exections supersized!
I'm not crazy about the CIA
Tena - Richard Clarke. There are some very good one's that have a deep love of their country that goes above their leader. Change from within, or something like that.
Old Hat -
If you would have enlisted three years ago, and nothing else has changed for you, then enlist now.
But I suspect that that is not the case. Enlisting now, to be part, is what the White Feather Legion was always after - it made no sense in 1914 and it makes none now. Simple coercion and a means of co-opting local populations, for once you are enlisted, your people are enlisted too and all their lives and opinions change just like -that-.
Thinking about Tillman, and a dreadful thing I'm sure to say, but here it is. How heroic is it for a young man otherwise occupied, honorably, who has just taken a wife and had a new baby, to decide to enlist? Not under compulsion, implicit or explicit, not the sweet compulsion of a country calling (for it did not), nor the obligation of a duty assumed - but enlist in the midst of the life that produced the new wife and new baby. Is it heroism or is it ego? If it isn't even self-imposed obligation - an obligation never before manifest, and it isn't a country's call, then what is it?
Take your time. I'm old, but I'm not asking you to take my place or follow my ideas about duty. Take your time.
Also, as much as we hate all the bloody claws of American power, an "Arabist" translating phone calls and tracing airplane manifests in a CIA office would be doing one hell of a lot more to actually defend America than some uniformed bullet-catcher stuck with Lidiclich crowd control stomping his way into Arab hearts.
"train wreck in progress"
Exactly. I recently saw a tv movie called "A Bright Shining Lie". It was made in 1998 and was about the Vietnam war, but some of the dialogue sounded like it was straight out of a recent press conference.
I suspect an invasion of Falloujah will mark the point of no return. Things have been going downhill for a while now, but the bloody results of such an attack will end all chances for a reconcilliation.
BTW, has any major news source talked about the hundreds of civillians who have already died there?
fck it. jst as i was hitting the send btton, i saw there was no u in execution.
Old Hat, don't.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Old Hat -
When I enlisted (back in 1977) - it was to find that same Honor of my Father and Uncles and cousins before me - all Marines. Dad and my Eldest Uncle fought in Korea. The rest in Vietnam.
I achieved my Honor. And it wasn't easy. Think about it long and hard before you raise your hand and commit yourself. This isn't a cakewalk my friend. I take what I learned in earnest and with the upmost seriousness. And to this very day I would not hesitate to die for one of my Marine Brothers.
My government is another thing. Understand the difference.
chris/tx - yes, I've been learning that over the last year. I've been amazed, too.
See, I've never trusted the FBI. And none of you should, either. They are the worst - storm troopers.
I figured the CIA was kind of like that, only global. Seems not to be the case. I've been experiencing a growing admiration for the organization. But Tenet I despise utterly.
Beth - The only major news source that I know of that is talking about the massacre of civilians at Falluja is the BBC. The same eye-witness account that I had read a week earlier on the web was the story the BBC ran.
I consider that pretty major, actually. I would have thought it less major if it was the Guardian, but it was the BBC. I think Britain really wants their guys out of there, and the only one left who doesn't is Blair.
CIA grew out of Rooseveltish adventurism and later dulling by Dulles. FBI grew out of Pinkerton strikebreaking and the unique influence of Madame le Houvre.
Hey Bush -- you broke it, you OWN it, asshole!
I can't imagine anyone attuned to this blog would go enlist in Bush's imperialist legions. But if any of you do go, do me a favor and leave off the BS about how you're fighting for our freedom. You have none of my support. If you get your ass killed, it will be good training for you.
I recently saw a tv movie called "A Bright Shining Lie".
I haven't seen the movie, but the book was excellent. John Paul Vann sounded like Clarke in many ways: a passionate visionary who knew what must be done, but whose advice was pretty much ignored.
If you want to know what the plan is for Fallujha it's easy to find out...just go ask Price Bandar!
Bush has never hesitated to kill people whenever he has had the opportunity.I think he is dying to drop the big one somewhere.
Dumb motherfuckers. They're going to throw a lighted torch into a gasoline soaked region. Something I just think Georgie likes to watch stuff blow up. And people dying is just a bonus for him.
It's not Vietnam. It's the Warsaw ghetto, or Wounded Knee. It wasn't the killing of the four Americans, it was the mutilation and display of the bodies that sent people over the edge. Methinks the downer preznit is asking himself, What Would Cheney Do? Maybe it's time to uncork that test-tube of Ice 9 and get on with it.
Oh, yes, daniel ...
"Nice, nice, very nice
So many different people
In the same device."
(Nothing in this book is true,
"Live by the foma* that makes you brave
and kind and healthy and happy."
The Books of Bokonon 1:5
*Harmless untruth)
I've been thinking Warsaw ghetto for a week or more. Time to turn to the books of Bokonon for stress relief.
And I feel fine...
AKA Donna
Old Hat the Imperialist? After 16 months of antiwar blogging?
My kingdom for a closed italics tag. 
AKA Donna
No, no, no. The Nazis were evil.
Our hearts are pure.
That's the difference. There can be no wrong consequences, as long as we meant well.
Looks like I picked the right week to re-read The Iron Dream.
For those of you who may not know, it's by Norman Spinrad - it's a "novel" written by a failed politician known as Adolf Hitler (in an alternate universe).
Kind of a post-holocaust fantasy, but that isn't the important point. What's important is the perspective - the viewpoint of a sociopath who is willing to slaughter millions of "sub-humans" for the good of "Civilization".
It's true Catholics have some tenets that are disturbing to modern people. Catholic teachings are generally NOT forced down the throats of their followers these days. There are some uber conservative Catholics that seem to get all the press unfortunately.
Yes, there are some priests who wouldn't administer communion to people because they deem them sinners, but there are many more priests who would administer communion to anyone who wanted it. They don't check ID cards at the altar. They are not supposed to anyway.
Modern American Catholics are not the sheep of yesterday. Fundies are the new sheep. Catholics hear the conservative bishops who are in the minority spouting their unenlightened rhetoric, but they don't necessarily heed the call. They are not hypocrites, they are just people living by their consciences. They don't fall prey to that cafeteria catholic nonsense spewed by self righteous individuals.
What should be concerning people more is this fundie crusade against Islam that Bush is on. The Catholic Church learned long ago that religion and politics don't mix. They don't do holy wars anymore.
A Roman Catholic priest was charged in the 1980 killing of a nun whose body was found in the chapel of the hospital where he served as chaplain, police said.
The Rev. Gerald Robinson, 63, was arrested Friday, five months after police reopened the investigation into the death of Sister Margaret Ann Pahl, Chief Mike Navarre said.
Pahl, 71, was stabbed about 30 times and strangled on April 5, 1980, police said. Her body was found in the chapel of Toledo's Mercy Hospital where she was the caretaker.
At a news conference Friday night, Navarre said "new technology" led to Robinson's arrest. He would not elaborate on what the link was to Robinson nor would he talk about evidence or a motive.
Police started up the cold case based on a tip provided to the Lucas County prosecutor's office.
The Rev. Michael Billian, spokesman for the 19-county Diocese of Toledo, said church officials will cooperate with police.
"It certainly saddens the diocese," he said.
Roman Catholic priest was charged in the 1980 killing of a nun
John Negroponte and friends are suspected in the 1980 rape and murder of 4 US nuns and the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero in El Salvador.
Anonymous: The commission voted 3 to 1 in approval of the proposed rule, with three Republicans in favor and one Democrat opposing it.
Under the rule, employers can coordinate health benefits for retirees who are eligible for Medicare or a similar state-sponsored health benefit. Employers had been prohibited from doing so since 2001, after a federal appeals court concluded that coordinating health benefits was illegal age discrimination.
I'll bet you a trillion dollars those same three Repub pricks would vote against means testing. So, as long as you're retired, making a shitload of cash from a life of stealing from the middle class, your Medicare benefits remain intact.
Why do I hate what America has become?
.
Anonymous: The commission voted 3 to 1 in approval of the proposed rule, with three Republicans in favor and one Democrat opposing it.
Under the rule, employers can coordinate health benefits for retirees who are eligible for Medicare or a similar state-sponsored health benefit. Employers had been prohibited from doing so since 2001, after a federal appeals court concluded that coordinating health benefits was illegal age discrimination.
I'll bet you a trillion dollars those same three Repub pricks would vote against means testing. So, as long as you're retired, making a shitload of cash from a life of stealing from the middle class, your Medicare benefits remain intact.
Why do I hate what America has become?
.
.............
After some consideration, I've realized it would have been better for my mom if I had kept working, instead of quitting work as an excuse to loaf around the house while "taking care" of her.
Tena
Anyone here care to guess how long it's been since my cooter had some dick?
Tena
I haven't read a book in my miserable life, unless Gene Lyons's shit counts.
Atrios
Tena, I wish you had stayed at work instead of bugging the stew out of me until I hopped the twig.
Tena's mom
Good lord, do I ever love having young root rammed up my ass!
David Ehrenstein
to blow the hell out of
We've actually "blown the hell into"...moreoften.
Maybe Bush is trying to immamentize the, uh...(looks up at header on main page)...oh, never mind.
Marines caught some insurgents with their robes down today. See url below.
We can't cut and run from Iraq. Unless we want to face a far bigger problem in a few years. Kerry, unlike Bush, has not burnt his bridges with the international community and can get NATO on board to take over the military action in Iraq. NATO then should put lots of boots on the ground. A million if possible. Use this overwhelming force to disarm the populace, remove ordinance, land mines, and depleted uranium laying around. and train the Iraqi police and military. Kerry can also get the UN to take over reconstruction of Iraq. The UN should replace the current contractors with bid contracts from companies from all 4 corners of the globe with the requirement of hiring 50% Iraqis and 10-20% Arabs/ Muslims/ Middle Easterners. Give Iraqis jobs and a stake in the rebuilding. Give them a real future. Repeat with Afghanistan.
Liberate them or blow them to smithereens - what's the difference?
Y'know, I think that when people say, "The enemy only understands the language of force," there's a fair amount of projection going on. Sure, force can work in some occasions, but the complete reliance on shows of force really is the hallmark of the Wolfowitzian approach to international affairs. Perle and Frum, as fellow travellers, said much the same thing during an interview on Fresh Air: invading Iraq sends a powerful message to Syria, Iran, and others; if they don't get the message, too, we'll have to make an example of them.
Shock and awe was essentially the same idea--which seems largely a fraud, given that (1) major parts of the Iraqi army voluntarily melted away, (2) shock and awe didn't merely decapitate the Iraqi state, it shattered it completely, and (3) nothing since the invasion seems to indicate that the insurgents, or an enraged population like that in Fallujah, are awed into obedience with US demands (though they certainly are shocked by the needless brutality of the siege).
In short, it seems that Wolfowitz and his co-militarists only understand force, not just the terrorists (and maybe not even them, depending on which terrorist group you're discussing). They seem out of ideas when force doesn't work, and they're certainly willing to back themselves into a corner by too quickly and too hamhandedly using the military option.
[And I'm no dove, by the way. Follow the link below to see some initial postings of where I'm coming from.]
I don't believe that is really 'Old Hat'. Granted, I haven't been lurking here as long as many of you, but that does not read like 'Old Hat' at all. Some wingnut is messing around.
If Bush uses overwhelming force in Fallujah and most Americans continue to sit on their asses, then I have no doubt that in short time we will surpass the barbarism of Hitler's Germany.
I wish someone would wake me up from this goddamn nightmare I've been having since November 11th, 2000.
We should make Fallujah Iraq's Hiroshima.
we will make Falluja Iraq's Lidice.
We should make Fallujah Iraq's Hiroshima.
Of course, to attempt such a thing would end up making Fallujah Iraq's Montségur.
Anyone checked the CIA Factbook entry on Iraq lately. Apparently there are coalition forces there working to establish a freely elected government.
Well, we have all been aware for some time that Bush, no doubt in a typically nuanced, subtle and sensitive massaging of the Muslim mind, was adopting "Israeli tactics" in Iraq.
Fallujah could be bush's Guernica, Not Hiroshima. This is just the beginning boys!
"What Bush decides this weekend depends on just which 'advisors' he decides to bestow his attention upon."
Apparently, there's not a lot of that commodity to go around, either.
Why do the Iraqis, other Muslims, and the rest of the developing world have so much skepticism about the motives of the US? Read my analysis describing how the US shut down democratic movements in Iran and Algeria:
http://worldonfire.typepad.com/
w...e_brown_de.html
War is not like bathwater; it's no use trying to slip in an inch at a time.
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