I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
It's not only worse, it's insane and wrong.
Me no like anything but whites.
Nobody, nobody is saying these things. I suppose that doesn't matter, though.
"insane and wrong"?
ROTFALMAO!!!!!
It's a WHITE COUNTRY! Every non-white in America knows that simple fact from the moment we draw breath.
When will the people of the Dis United States Wake up and realise that BUsh has no clue on how to deal with the public rationally?We are too caught up in buying our new shoes to realise that we are heading for a fall and the preacher leads us all.Everyword from the head hypocrate leads to national chaos and a leading terrorism recruiting indicator.
Bush- better recruiting thru ineptitude.
I believe that people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than white can self-govern.
I had just turned on the teevee when I thought I heard him say this. But unable to believe it I decided I must have misunderstood.
Oh, I'm going to be sick. This man is an absolute disgrace. Holy cow.
"Our little brown brothers..."
-- William Howard Taft, the Paul Bremer of the Philippines
Can I say it any plainer?
Howabout
Bush = terroism expansion
David Ehrenstein,
America isn't very democratic to non-whites here either. Why should non-whites in Iraq get special privalages that non-whites here in America don't get?
you're right david, but somehow I don't think this is Dubya's comment on the state of contemporary race relations.
"I believe that people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a
different color than white can self-govern."
Whether white people can self govern is still up in the air.
Rush is mocking Kerry's speech live ... calling him an idiot, mischaracterizing his statements, saying that his mission is to get the French and the Germans to like us again... god I hate that pill-popping pompous pustule of a man.
"There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern."
Yes George, and most of them are members of your own party.
Kerry-- fucking it up some more.I know I said I wouldnt critisize him,but he's still talking about bringing more troops to Iraq and trying to get more nations in there.Doesnt he realise that the Iraq adventure is a miserable failure.We nee a radical new plan and Kerry is missing the opening Bush has left.
Bush is just using the royal 'we'.
We are not amused.
"I'm bringing democracy to the green people of MARS, BITCHES!"
Said Bush today, the mission was "accomplished" because "there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms" in Iraq. Except those run by "coalition" forces I guess he meant.
WaPo article on the incompetence of the U.S. in administering the $18 billion reconstruction funds.
http://tinyurl.com/3bhvn
BTW, it's great to see NBC reporting Bremer's pre 9/11 scathing criticism of Bush's complete lack of interest in terrorism.
I believe our little brown brothers & sisters can self-govern, but I sure as hell ain't gonna let 'em. After we've wired 'em up to phony electric boxes, made 'em pile up nekkid, and raped a few, mibbe they'll get some idea of what kinda gov'ment we have in mind.
It's the rest of you lib'ruls and hate-Murka types that's rascist. Me, I just listen to Jeebus.
"And, the characterization of the US as a "white" country is even worse."
For a moment, I thought this was said by anti-occupation Iraqis, or anti-Americans. Then I read the story.
Scary....
WAKE UP! WAKE UP! WAKE UP! How many more examples of racism, elitism and downright lies will people allow of this president before they turn their backs on him?
""There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people
whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and
self-govern."
That more people voted for the white candidate over the blotchy candidate is solid proof.
How to Gaslight Your Opposition:
(1) Figure out what you actually are (e.g., racist, dishonest, greedy, unstable).
(2) Preemptively call your opponent this.
(3) Repeat (2) often through multiple media, i.e., the Echo Chamber.
(4) Voila! You are innoculated from being accused of what you are really guilty of because you have already hung it on the opposition.
(5) Turkee is mines.
Whether white people can self govern is still up in the air.
Let's just say that they have by no means perfected it. Not even close.
Some just do a better job of it.
And then there's george.
This is not the first time he mentioned the word 'brownskins'. Really do US presidents talk in this way, do they bringup people skin color regularly in answering questions about their policies? You see, I am a recent immigrant to this country. I find it fascinating that a US president always bringing up the people skin color.
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern.
Hey George,
Ever heard of us, asshole? Fuck off.
sincerely,
Republic of Turkey
ps: We're a country not a bird, you ignorant prick.
A platitude is not a plan, Mr. Bush. Championing democracy in non-democratic nations requires more than simply stating one's confidence that it is possible. If you ain't got a way to make it happen without getting the rest of us killed, you ain't worth shit.
By the way, the best thing that democracy has going for it, as far as I'm concerned, is the fact that if America was one, this man wouldn't be its president.
I hope beyond hope that Kerry does not turn out to be another wimpass democratic candidate. I think he needs a really strong VP candidate, and relatively soon. I read an article the other day stating that Edwards and Gephardt were the two main choices. I hope not. Gephardt reminds me of Gore, and I don't think we need that right now.
I hope Kerry has enough sense to pick Wes Clark as the VP, and have Clark help articulate an Iraq plan.
Well, I think Bush's statement provides the rationale for leaving Iraq ASAP. In truth, I don't think the Iraqis need our "white man's" guidance to tell them how to run their country. What they need most is financing to put their country back together after our rampage through it. I would leave Iraq now and trust them to be smart enought to manage their society. We can use the savings from pulling troops out now to re-build the country. What's that - you mean that's not the real reason the US is in Iraq? Well, knock me down with a feather - I thought we were there to help them, not control them.
Talk about projection from Bush's part. What JGil said.
Rampant xenophobia, rampant prejudice... urgh, I don't usually get this angry but this is totally and completely daft, worse considering what's just passed in front of our eyes thanks to the press.
America is self-government? I'll be damned.
PS Yesterday the idiot was going on again about body language and stuff. WTF? I am terrified that this is the real man and not a pretend phony facade to comfort the vast numbers of Americans who are apparently completely daft.
Geez, the wheels are truly coming off, are they not?
Why would other countries support our effort? Because it's in their own profound self intrest.
WHAT!
It's a WHITE COUNTRY! Every non-white in America knows that simple fact from the moment we draw breath.
David Ehrenstein
And someday after you people have learned our ways, we'll even let you help govern it, David.
In Chimpee's bizzaro world, the only folks who count ARE white.
W says, "I thought everyone knew
I just love those people of hue.
I've been known to go bowlin'
With Condi and Colin,
And I once even talked to a Jew."
GWB: I believe that people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than white can self-govern.
Words to inspire Colin Powell every day. And Condi.
that was sarcasm!
Bush is completely out of his depth talking to the press. Every time he opens his mouth , scripted or not, I scratch my head and wonder how anyone could want him to continue as President.
Slightly OT. I enjoy Josh Marshall, read TPM regularly, have contributed to his site. Could someone explain why Josh would he have a link to Kaus on his blog? Seems odd.
Don't the Malaysians govern themselves? Singaporeans? Sure, they don't have quite the same representative government we do, but they do self-govern. Indonesia self-governs, even though it's had a rough time of it, and is the largest Islamic country in the world.
It's important to remember that, if self-governance or true democracy were part of the plan, we'd have run the invasion a lot differently. It wasn't, for anyone who would have figured that the Iraqis were a lot more bent toward theocracy than was the Ba'ath Party, and even more belligerant toward Israel, if that's possible. No, our plan was for a Saddam Lite, I think. Such as we had a plan, at all.
Lime Rickey, that one hit the spot.
"you're right david, but somehow I don't think this is Dubya's comment on the state of contemporary race relations."
Well somehow I DO.
Remember Pappy Bush prattling about the "litle brown ones"?
It's a White Country. Now more than ever. After all the "good" non-whites (ie. not me) "know their place." Why even Essie Mae Washington Williams fell into line claiming the man who raped her mother had "an affair" with that poor servant girl.
And just look at those Proud and Preening House Niggers, Colin and Condi. Ol' Massa's not 'bout to hear a discouragin' word from them.
Afterall they're helping to "promote Democracy" in Iraq!
Bush is speaking in code to people who've condescended to believe that "other cultures" can be democratic -- if only they get a little help from more "civilized" cultures. People like my brother-in-law, who believes the U.S. went to Iraq to "bring democracy to the Middle East." Of course, the irony is that we spent a large part of the 20th century propping up Middle Eastern strongmen because dictatorships seemed so much easier to control . . .
Smirk Junior believes in that brown people everywhere should have freedom and democracy and stuff -- so long as Smirk is the only one who gets to vote.
Sorry, but I've been hearing this racism for a while now. Most of it coming from the war SUPPORTERS, though, who in some cases are now arguing we should "bomb them all". But sadly, a "liberal" friend of mine told me he thinks arabs aren't capable of democracy. I see on DailyKos and other liberal sites occasional posts suggesting a cut and run policy with an implicit "screw them" subtext. The far left and the far right both seem to be jumping on that ugly bandwagon to a certain extent.
This is not the first time he mentioned the word 'brownskins'. Really do US presidents talk in this way, do they bringup people skin color regularly in answering questions about their policies? You see, I am a recent immigrant to this country. I find it fascinating that a US president always bringing up the people skin color.
lava | Email | Homepage | 04.30.04 - 3:39 pm | #
Lava, no, our elected presidents do not talk like this. But unfortunately, Bush was assigned to the office by the supreme court, and therefore is not our president. The voters intend to fix that problem this November.
Lime Rickey, what would we do without woot and you?
That was excellent.
How to Gaslight Your Opposition:
(1) Figure out what you actually are (e.g., racist, dishonest, greedy, unstable).
(2) Preemptively call your opponent this.
(3) Repeat (2) often through multiple media, i.e., the Echo Chamber.
(4) Voila! You are innoculated from being accused of what you are really guilty of because you have already hung it on the opposition.
(5) Turkee is mines.
Bingo! Karl Rove's preferred m.o.
Bill O'Lylie was screeching about this today. His claim that this is only 17 soldiers out of 200,000 is disgusting. He also glosses over the fact that these attrocities are being blamed on, or are the sole act of, contractors is just as disgusting as any other lie he has told.
Given that these attrocities are happening today, do they have any right to bash Kerry about his testamony in front of Congress in the 70's? Hypocrits of the worst sort, and Bill is right there at the top.
God I hate republicans.
Osama still being forgotten.
Yet another example of what happens when Dubya speaks without a teleprompter.
Garbage!
Bush is a puppet, just like Reagan was.
Bush is nothing; an idiot son of an asshole oilman fronting for his betters all his miserable life.
That America made him president is Pythonesque on a good day, and history's greatest fuck-up the rest of the time.
His handlers let him speak like this from time to time to thumb their noses at America's left, to show their utter disrespect for the office of president, the American people and the country herself.
"See, he's stupid and you fools STILL follow him!" chortles Rove and Cheney and the lot. "You'll see, hear and believe only what we let you", goes the chorus of millionaire mediots, too poorly bred to realize the tradgedy of their mistakes.
Racist!
That's nothing!
The president's a front!
A falsie on the puffed up chest of America's industrial titan.
What's worse than racist?
Clueless, heartless, worthless come to mind.
par excellence, mr. rickey.
I had not given color a thought until w brought it up. NO ONE asked him anything about color. Can Presidents be involuntarily committed?
More and more I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's comment that he was more interested in surfaces than what was beneath them. IIRC, he said we were all shallow; it was what was on the surface that was interesting.
He has a point. Paying attention to what is "beneath" a statement, a person's demeanor, behavior, actions, etc., can blind us to what is right in front of us.
Bush told a reporter, during the campaign, that there were no hungry people in Texas, because if there were, as Governor, he'd know about it.
How is that any different from saying even non-whites can self-govern?
And yet we turn away, insisting the Emperor is clothed, that our "political system" could not possibly labor to bring forth such an empty suit, that there must be some substance beneath that obvious veneer.
The only question now is: when will it be obvious to us this man is unfit for human society, much less public office? When will we stop wondering why he says stupid things, stop looking at them as an indication of something "hidden," and realize the venality, the stupidity, the incompetence and smallness, are all hiding in plain sight?
Veritas,
I brought up color to gaslight you. Me make you so crazy, I get the temporary restraining order. I'm taking the distributor cap of your car right now.
Hay G W B. Did you know jeebus was black? I didn't think so.
The president's a front!
A falsie on the puffed up chest of America's industrial titan.
Wow, gonzo, you're on fire today, too!
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern.
Um, George, what does your faith have to do with your skin color?
Oh, and O'Lylie is blaming Al'Jazeera for supporting terrorism for publishing these pictures and not saying that those who were responsible were in custody. They arn't in custody. They are contractors and are above the law there, Bush signed that act a long time ago.
I think nolo has a good point,
I would only add that this language is right in line with the undercurrent of religious evangelism... yes, these poor souls can change but we need to show them the way.
Bush may be setting up another straw man, but it is just possible that he does not know these facts: The population of the US is estimated at 293 million. The largest Democracy in the world is not the “white” US, but India, with 1 billion persons, who, as Bush might put it, are a “different color than white”. India also is the home of more than 120 million Muslims--one of the world's largest Muslim populations. Bush’s stupefying ignorance of the world is not simply fodder for snarky comment and late-night comedy. It has real world consequences, particularly when we desperately need the help of troops from, say…INDIA.
You are right Robert, and that's what terrifies me. That idiot with his finger on the button.
while you commies are kvetching about the skin comment,
george has expressed his disgust at prisoner treatment.
stop complaining, it's not helping the cause in iraq.
The President doth protest too much, methinks
http://www.allshakespeare.com/qu...otes.php?
id=287
The only people I've heard express any "brown-skin" sentiments are war supporters who think the US should kill as many Muslims as possible, given whatever excuse possible.
I guess this is up-is-down. Maybe GWB holds these sentiments and figures a good defense is to accuse his enemies of harboring them.
That idiot with his finger on the button.
Dickie doesn't let him anywhere near that button.
Wolflowitz Has No Idea How Many Died
When asked "how many American troops have died in Iraq," Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz estimated "the total was about 500 -- more than 200 soldiers short," the AP reports.
Perhaps the principal problem here is the president's belief that saying he's for 'democracy' makes it so,
No, Josh, the principal problem is that he's an asshole.
David E., remember what Gahndi said:
Q: what do you think of western civilization
A: I think it would be a good idea!
Indeed.
I am the abusive husband America hates to love. You will always be mines. Now, don't forget to pick up the drycleaning? What do you mean "What drycleaning"? Oh, and I think you've been using the phone too much, so I got rid of it.
We, the people, will tolerate the Bush/Cheney regime no longer.
Message to congress - get off your duffs and move to impeach this administration now. We, the people, are paying attention and will remember what your representation of our wishes (or your lack thereof) when we go to vote in November.
OT -- for the newest in Orwellian newspeak from our Secretary of State see maxspeak.org/mt.
Must reread "Politics and the English Language." Don't think Orwell discusses abuse of word "sovreignty."
It goes without saying that non-whites can have democracy. To even bring up this topic is condescending and repugnant.
Sorry "sovereignty."
His mouth-brain connection is severely disrupted. The process of connecting one thought to another is also terribly flawed. Where does he get this stuff?
Scorpio
Eccentricity
this is beyond "straw man" this is a freaking straw goliath.
but just for kicks, let's take Shrub at his word for a second: to the extent that those things are being said at all, it's occuring places like Freeperville and Little Green Fubar... places that attract more Bush-voters than you could shake a stick at. who says irony is dead?
pie; thanx. In late, in hard.
I've been working away from the screen a lot lately and the rage kinda builds up.
It was good to see some of the cartoonists draw Bush as Cheney's puppet. Let's pick up on that theme.
Face it.
No one could be that stupid and survive in the real world. It's evolutionarily illogical.
Our prez bleeds red, white, and blue
But he rejects those bad Muslims of hue.
Despite what he says,
Keep your eye on his ways
'Cause next he'll come gunning for you.
OT- Can anyone tell me how many mercenaries we have hired in Iraq?
Is Ehrenstein doing fake racism camp?
OT (a rare case of sexual confusion)
Did anyone else see on the Frontline documentary near the end, or maybe it was the ending sequence proper, they had a clip of Bush's speech in front if these lit war monuments at night, and the entire time Bush's head had this faggoty tilt to it. His head was cocked to the side like his neck wasn't working, cocked sharply, impossible to avoid, and not a physical thing since he doesn't always do it. It was the most lazy, immature, unsoldierly thing...
Between that, the clothes and mascara and hair "product" on the Foxy and Wolfly Men of Pravda, and Geraldo Rivera's lovely bitchly queenly fabtabulous travelogue "[some number] Miles of Bad Road", what the fuck is up with all these war-worshipping Godly/manly neocons making a pair of girls feel so damn masculine? Seriously, can anyone watch Geraldo and not want to slap him and demand, "Grow...glands of either disposition, damn it! There's no point to being such a screaming fag if you're not going to (a) support your queer siblings and/or (b) quit talking and suck, etc!" Puts us in mind of the loyalty of the eunuchs of the Ottomans, Maharajas and some Caliphs. Something about transferring all that energy...oh, yes, Mr President!!
There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly.
Funny, he didn't seem to disagree with Katharine Harris when she removed over 90,000 African Americans from voter registration lists in 2000.
Charlie Rangel, Harold Ford, John Lewis,
or Bill Richardson or that pretty california hispanic congresswoman should go on TV to criticize Bush's remarks.
Susan writes: I see on DailyKos and other liberal sites occasional posts suggesting a cut and run policy with an implicit "screw them" subtext. The far left and the far right both seem to be jumping on that ugly bandwagon to a certain extent.
...
If you go to a liberal site you most likely will see an occasional post on just about anything. Anyway, I think a more common point of view for many liberals is that modern Iraq is an unnatural state, cobbled together by the British Mandate. Like the Balkans, a natural tendency is for it to break up into its more traditional regions, and it will be very hard to establish "democracy" under imposed conditions. While I don't necessarily agree with this point, this is a far cry from the freeper subtext that iraqis are incapable of democracy.
you're right david, but somehow I don't think this is Dubya's comment on the state of contemporary race relations.
You're right Atrios, but David is right as well. By winger brother is worried sick that the mexicans (his words) are going to take over texas.
GOD FORBID! I guess he's worried they'll make breakfast burritos mandatory.
I'm so embarrassed our president is such a fucking moron. Please world, forgive us!
Actually, John Kerry should take on Bush on those comments.
I see on DailyKos and other liberal sites occasional posts suggesting a cut and run policy with an implicit "screw them" subtext. The far left and the far right both seem to be jumping on that ugly bandwagon to a certain extent.
Susan,
By this logic, was the wave of decolonization that took place in the 1950s and 1960s racist?
Perhaps the principal problem here is the president's belief that saying he's for 'democracy' makes it so,
No, Josh, the principal problem is that he's an asshole.
My point, exactly. Let's stop making excuses for what he means, and simply pay attention to exactly what he says.
This is not a game. It's a simple matter. Limbaugh used to love to intone it: "Words mean something."
Don't make more (or less) of it than it is. It's right there. George W. Bush is a racist, upper-class twit.
It's plain. It's in his own words. Why make something of it that it isn't?
Miserable Failure has to be the dumbest man ever to occupy the WH. He has had access to the finest schools we have, and yet he seems to have availed himself of none of their offerings. I know there has always been a strong strain of anti-intellectualism in American society, but this is ridiculous. I'd rather be governed by a baboon.
By this logic, was the wave of decolonization that took place in the 1950s and 1960s racist?
Yes. Decolonialization is racist.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Get with the program.
And the fact that Bush got about 5% of the black vote only proves how racist the Democrats are.
fourlegs; Tell your brother to relax! The Mexicans most assuredly ARE going to take over Texas, and it's likely to happen in his lifetime!
What a luckie duckie.
So few a fortunate enough to live their worse nightmares.
Straw and tar? That burns pretty good.
Those poor "brown people" that GWB talks about. Reminds me of when Poppy talked about Jeb's kids.
K&Y,
Look don't say that. Now you made me hit you! I hate it when we quarrel.
Actually, when you get right down to it, it's us white folks (to borrow Mr. Bush's characterization) what might have much more trouble with self-government. After all, he's president even though more people here voted for his opponent than for him. If we're lucky, maybe one of those nations of color what can govern itself will take us over and teach us right. Wouldn't that be great, Mr. Bush?
Mexican breakfasts are like the most disgusting thing, unless you like eating them and then they're a cult. We don't dig eggs, or sausage, or sausage combined with eggs in slightly different ways and given a new name each time. Regarding Mexicans "taking over", did he mean to say, "taking back"? Or is Colorado a Viking term?
"This is all nonsense. When the president says 'brown skinned' he means 'swarthy, shifty eyed, smelly rag-heads'. He's just too polite to say that. And he's a wonderful, funny, caring man".
MJ, that was triplely an exceptionally strong Anarcho-Teen™ argument, a valid analogy and relevent to what's being discussed in this thread.
Back on topic, how do we counter these straw man arguments?
cmdicely, if converting to Islam comes with a tan, sign me up today!
As has been noted, Bush's remarks are unintentionally revealing. No doubt he does think of America as "white" - since people of that color (and only some of them) are the only ones who mean anything to him.
Bush's statement is also perfectly aligned with those made by some on the right, who make the "point" that Democrats only win elections because of the black vote. Anyone who's reading this thread can see the implications of that statement.
Does anyone know if this was statement or an answer? Was he given the question in advance? I have a feeling that these statements or abswers were calculated. They wait for the outrage from minority groups. Then Rush, Fox, and the gang go to work rallying up the angry white man vote.
Maybe we should just move the "brownskins" west of the Euphrates.
It occurred to me that Bush might be distancing himself (in words, not deeds of course) from those of his party who have been known to say that Ay-rabs aren't civilized or whatever. Here's what I'm thinking. Growing up in the country in the south, I've known more than my share of racist Republicans, and when I close my eyes I can see them saying something about how ragheads should all be nuked. Perhaps the idea behind Bush's straw racist man is to try to convince the more culturally sensitive folks (and maybe the ones anxious about the war) among the Repub ranks that he's not like those southern bigots. The only problem is, he seems to have exposed himself as a bigot (surprise) by not only bringing it up, but hammering it as if it were a real issue.
re 407-oh, hell no.
As lousy as we were as Marines, as useless as we were in hand-to-hand (against people who'd wrestled since high school), we did pick some things up (like when they expressly tell you to cheat), and there is no fucking way fabulous cheerleader deskless officer oilyboy is landing a paw on either of us.
"I'd rather be governed by a baboon."
Fed up
Well, you're being governed by someone who looks like a chimp and thinks like an idiot with loose change in his head.
Does Brazil have any blacks? Just curious. I mean, even if they do, they are still capable of democracy.
w- a lot of people think brown skinned etc- w I demand names. Name 3 people that have said this.
Could these brown people govern themselves without the compassion of George W. Bush?
This is just Bush's attempt at a Sister Souljah moment. Pretty sad, really.
fourlegs; Tell your brother to relax! The Mexicans most assuredly ARE going to take over Texas, and it's likely to happen in his lifetime!
What a luckie duckie.
Somewhere just south of Austin, on a line that runs almost directly across the state, Texas is already "Mexican."
I can only hope the rest of the state learns to live with bilingualism and a work ethic that doesn't disdain physical labor. And some of the friendliest people I've met, to boot.
Besides, if it raises the quality of Tex-Mex around the state (good in some areas, great in others, to be avoided like the plague in still others), it's a good thing!
Mexican breakfasts are like the most disgusting thing, unless you like eating them and then they're a cult. We don't dig eggs, or sausage, or sausage combined with eggs in slightly different ways and given a new name each time.
As a charter member of the cult, sir, I say "Fie, fie, upon you!"
Ain't nothi' better than a plate of migas in the mornin', with hash browns and refried beans (ah, memories of favorite Austin restaurants....).
Unless it's fried eggs on blue-corn tortillas with green chile sauce over all....
Gotta go. I'm gettin' hungry....
Quit trying to parse the words. This administration is a failure. It is elitist, racist, and criminal. They do not represent the ideals of the people of the United States, nor do they represent our interests. Their agenda is strictly personal.
We need to insist that congress begin impeachment hearings. The electorate needs to contact our representatives and senators and demand that Bush and Cheney get "unassigned" to their current roles.
How many more people need to die? How many more families will be wrecked? How much more can our constitution take before it is just a dim memory?
Bingo! Long memory! But you have to admit....it sure was white of her. Just as it sure was white of the Squatter to spend a few hours of his time with the 911 commission.
White I tell you! White like this:
A Kinder, Gentler, White Democrat.
Ha.
One thing's for sure, no one could ever accuse a liberal of crying "RACIST!!" to shut down debate. That has never been known to happen. Ever.
jr. - It's true that Iraq was cobbled together, but from what I have read over the last year, the Iraqis have a very strong feeling of nationalism. They have a lot of pride in Iraq and are very aware that it is the site of the beginnings of civilization. Certainly that is true of the educated Iraqis, and there are a lot of educated Iraqis. It is not a country populated solely by impoverished nomads.
So it's a bit misleading to not acknowledge how Iraqis actually see themselves and their country. I know you were just answering the comment about liberals being racist, but I really wanted to point that out again. I think it is at the heart of a lot of our problems in Iraq. Not only have our leaders chosen to ignore the different factions inside Iraq, and they are there, as you said, but our leaders ignored the very real feelings that Iraqis have for their country.
Veritas,
Don't make me hit you 'gain. I love you. Where's my drycleaining? And this floor is filthy!!!
cmdicely, if converting to Islam comes with a tan, sign me up today!
The right makes the argument that "Islam isn't a race" so attacking Muslims isn't racist.
Technically this is probably true but somehow I doubt that if all Muslims looked like the ones in Yugoslavia, most Americans would have drawn the connection between Iraq and 9/11.
In fact, most Americans don't even think of Muslims as being Asian.
Of course Judaism isn't a race either but those very same people would be the first ones to accuse me of being racist for attacking Israel. It's a nationality, blah, blah, blah.
"Osama still being forgotten"
Osama don't Surf
Yes, I have to agree with dicely, here, and remark on the conflation of religious belief with ethnicity. He mentions religion and race simultaneously. He has to be concious of doing this, of breaking down the classifications. Actually, maybe that's wishful thinking on my part. Maybe he won't distinguish.
Also, I was going to make a crude joke, here, but this really is a topic with which one can offend on both ethnic and religious grounds, so imagine your own pseudo-racial-religious joke and chuckle on your own. I'll pass.
SWR, that's my favorite argument from the wingnutters.
The right makes the argument that "Islam isn't a race" so attacking Muslims isn't racist.
See, I'm not a racist! I'm just an asshole!
Sigh.
A.
gonzo: you didn't pass Creation Science 101, did you? "evolutionarily illogical" means nothing to those of us who were put here in God's own "average white man with a strong sense of entitlement and good connections" image. You know, solid Americans such as GW.
Homer:
you're a racist.
here's hoping it shuts you down...
Old Hat-try pointing out the more than a century-old policy of colonialism by proxy, the connections between US and third world terror, the handshake where Rummy congraatulated (in effect) Saddam on his successes in the War on Terror (and gave him the Key to Detroit, the fucker). Try comparing Bush's racial record as in his murderous governorship. Try the racist annihilation of collateral damage. Try the second abandonement of Afghanistan. Try the treatment of Colin Powell, back when he was getting undercut within the day by his own people, to include the forced insertion of John Bolton into Powell's staff. Try the racism underlying a lust for war, knowing who it is that mostly dies in uniform. Try the placement of recruitment stations and the release of minority high school records to recruiters. Try the open defiance of Kofi Annan, which Nelson Mandela pointed out never happened when the US had serious disoutes with white UN leaders. And of course the Katherine Harris election thing.
All anarchist arguments, by the way. "Anarcho-teen" has a name, he calls himself Paul and calls for Republicans to logically enough Impeach [their party head] NOW, there is no need to be like that, especially when MJ was right on if you're familiar with the period, with racist Camus sparring with Sartre, etc..
veritas: I totally brownskinned* trying to ask that question:
"Name 3 people that say brown skinned people can't have a democracy?"
Let's see: Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott, Jesse Helms, Karl Rove, Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris,....
*brownskinned: - not capable of doing what white people can do.
See, I'm not a racist! I'm just an asshole!
Sigh.
A.
You mean I'm just a religious bigot.
Maybe "racism" isn't a good term and isn't technically correct, but bigotry doesn't really have to be technically correct.
The Irish look exactly like the English and yet the English conducted a racist, quasi genocidal occupation of Ireland. The Poles look exactly like the Germans yet the Germans consider the Poles to be subhman.
Hate is hate. Quibbling about technicalities doesn't counter the fact that the only reason Bush had popular support for the invasion of Iraq was the fact that most people drew a connection between 9/11 and all Arabs.
Call it what you want.
Personally, I'm loving it that the Mexicans are taking Texas back. It's the only thing that makes this place livable anymore.
Dallas used to be one of the whitest cities in America. Now that doesn't mean that there weren't any black or Mexican people here, but they were kept invisible by the people in power here, and they were all very white. Now that has changed - we had one of the best black mayors in the country for two terms. We have a growing vibrant Mexican population. We have a huge population of people who have come here from south Asia - huge. Lots of middle easterners, too.
This has saved Dallas from being the most boring city on earth. It is merely the 2d or 3d most boring city on earth now. But if present trends continue, it may just eventually grow a soul and be a real place, instead of a place where there is no there there.
The country is not white, David Ehrenstein.
There may be mostly caucasian people here- but even white is not white, not if you look deeper.
White is an abstraction. It is not codified in the genetics that make us human. There is no white blood type. There is only a continum of melanin.
White is a delusional barrier that the northern Europeans made up to rationalize their plundering.
I am blond haired and blue eyed, and I grew up in the South, of Scotch-Irish descent, but my ancestors came over as destitute and ignorant as any slave. Oppressed by their own culture, they invented the fiction of whiteness to justify their own oppression of others. They've clung to the delusion ever since.
I suppose they felt inadequate when they used the actual descriptive colors- sort of a pink-potato beige.
America is not a white country. It is ruled by white insanity. The sooner we come to grips with our delusions, the sooner we stand a chance of peace here.
cheney_usa You get a gold star. Now name 3 RATIONAL people.....
Veritas,
where's my turkee? And who was that you were talking to on the phone. Don't lie to me! Come here! You disgust me. I don't know why I love you so much.
GWB, America's favorite abusive husband
"I believe that people whose skins aren't necessarily..."
MJ, that was triplely an exceptionally strong Anarcho-Teen™ argument, a valid analogy and relevent to what's being discussed in this thread.
Back on topic, how do we counter these straw man arguments?
Old Hat | Email | Homepage | 04.30.04 - 4:09 pm | #
Old Hat--
Thank you for validating the analogy and its relevance to the thread. I am confused, though, as to why opposition to colonialism is necessarily an anarchist position. Please explain.
Not only have our leaders chosen to ignore the different factions inside Iraq...but our leaders ignored the very real feelings that Iraqis have for their country.
Actually, Tena, our leaders most starkly chose to ignore the feelings that Iraqis might have for Americans, and how those feelings might stew up and ripen over a year of constant popular fear and frustration under the occaisionally crushing, but usually utterly absent, hand of the Coalition Provisional Authority.
tena,
I really don't disagree with a word you said. As you pointed out, I was just stating a perfectly acceptable poin of view.
However, sometimes I wonder to myself what Iraq means to Iraqis. It is a terribly complex issue, and I'm not quite sure that the concept of "Iraq" means the same thing to someone living in the protected Kurdish areas as it does to someone living in a slum in Sadr city. This is the challenge.
Iraq is kind of like Jesus - there is no clear consensus on what it is or represents.
It's a good thing I can't afford to visit my friends in Germany. What could I do when they asked me how a manifestly unqualified xenophobe could become president but hang my head in shame?
K&Y:
yous guys're the best.
Duhbya aint white, he's yellow.
George W Bush- leave me alone- I'm home with Condi and I have a cigar.
"racism" is a mealleable word-- i've never found a satisfactory definition of it. what we ALL are, in my opinion, is tribal-- some of us recognize that, and try to think beyond those inherent limitations. others, well...
"I believe that people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a
different color than white can self-govern."
This is pure sleight of hand. You know, the grade school gag where the guy distracts with the left hand waving away while punching you in the guy -
"See the airplane; watch out for the submarine!"
This appears to be Rove's latest trick. Basically having the Bush boy change the subject. Desparate.
fed up,
you could buy your friends a couple rounds of beer and then let them pants you while you stagger drunk down the strasse shouting "Bush is no president of mine!"
"racism" is a mealleable word-- i've never found a satisfactory definition of it. what we ALL are, in my opinion, is tribal-- some of us recognize that, and try to think beyond those inherent limitations. others, well...
I don't really think the issue here is the "naturally tribal" instincts of humans.
The issue is a superpower invading a small, Middle Eastern country and it's President trying to brand critics of his policy as racist.
But, then again, since most neocons are pretty much Stalinists at heart, you can see a nice similarity between us and the Soviet Union.
Of course anybody who criticizes turning Afghanistan into a moonscape is "objectively facist" and "in league with the imperialist Americans."
"It's a good thing I can't afford to visit my friends in Germany. What could I do when they asked me how a manifestly unqualified xenophobe could become president but hang my head in shame?"
-Fed up
America doesn't have a monopoly on xenophobia.
Dear David Smith.
You've been pwn3d.
Sincerely,
Don't forget: 'Dubya' is an idiot. He says what he's able to fathom - no more no less. He is a product of the men who installed him - and so even if his 'quiver' contains astonishingly few arrows - they are all at worst harmless to the establishment of the PNAC's agenda.
jr...only if I could have some of the beer, too. Obviously, I think Miserable Failure is disgusting. He's had educational opportunities many of us would give anything to have. I would have loved to have gone to Yale and Harvard, and yet look what he's done, or rather hasn't done with those opportunities. It's criminal.
I believe that people whose skins aren't necessarily -- are a different color than white can self-govern.
****************
Excuse me, but did Bush just endorse DC statehood?
They are contractors and are above the law there, Bush signed that act a long time ago.
Except that (1) Bush didn't, he signed an executive order -- not an act -- which applies to other people, and (2) Bush doesn't have the authority to exempt people from criminal statutes.
They are free, if they are, only because no one is enforcing the law, not because they immune to it.
Yoshimi, no we don't have a monopoly on xenophobia. But look at the leaders of Germany, France, Great Britain, Ireland, Poland, etc. These countries and others have intelligent, articulate leaders. Whether you agree with them or not, at least they make sense when they talk and show signs of having read something beyond a bubblegum wrapper. I do not expect to agree with everything a president says or does, but I would like to be able say that at least he isn't an overtly bigoted moron.
What race is freedom? Just tell me that. This is a race we cannot lose.
Actually I was watching CNN, and they were interview this guy who I guess was a father of one of the Iraqi prison guards saying it wasnt it it looked like and his kid was a good kid. But He had the same mangled syntax, deer in the headlights look that bush gets when he talks. He really does talk like his target market!
SWR:
my point was that a) discussions on "who's more racist" miss the point, and b) those incapable of (or disinterested in) introspection fall into the fallacies of their own tribalism most often. [see: dubya]
It's tragic- as I understand these things, if any middle eastern nation had the potential for democracy, it was Iraq. The people were reasonably educated and it was relatively secular (like this country used to be).
I wonder what would have happened had the UN been involved from the beginning- would Saddam & the boys gone into a voluntary exile? Could we have set up a provisonary government in a relatively unscathed and un-embittered nation and just backed off to let them do their own thing?
I also wonder why the Great Pumpkin never shows up...
Amazing and impressive, certainly, but not a surprising new bit of propaganda from our president. This man will use anything to try to smear his enemies. It's like when Bob Novak asked if Richard Clarke had a problem with Condi because she was African American.
These guys don't give a damn about other races until they can use them to further their agenda.
- Joel
----
Nightmares For Sale - You're Damn Right I'm Angry!
Calling critics of the Iraq War racists is like calling critics of the Third Reich, Nazis.
my point was that a) discussions on "who's more racist" miss the point, and b) those incapable of (or disinterested in) introspection fall into the fallacies of their own tribalism most often. [see: dubya]
I just think you're being too abstract. We're in Iraq, Bush got support for the invasion for only one reason, Americans let their racism allow them to think there was a connection between Iraq and 9/11.
Try to imagine what would happen if the IRA bombed London and Bush and Blair suggested an invasion of Poland or Italy as a response. They are both Catholic countries, right?
Fuck Bush. Seriously.
The Brown Skinned remark has Rove all over it. Something is brewing. Remember when Bush, out of the blue, started putting the "hijack airplanes and fly them into building in NYC" in every speech? Lo and Behold, when Condi blurted out the Aug. 6 memo title, Bush had his butt covered. Rove may know some racist stuff is getting ready to hit the airwaves and is getting out front, again. Bush can say plenty of stupid things on his own, but if he says them more than once, Rove is behind it. Guaranteed.
Actually I was watching CNN, and they were interview this guy who I guess was a father of one of the Iraqi prison guards saying it wasnt it it looked like and his kid was a good kid. But He had the same mangled syntax, deer in the headlights look that bush gets when he talks. He really does talk like his target market!
Triple D
...
The sad thing is that I'm sure that his son was a good kid before he left for Iraq.
Calling critics of the Iraq War "racists" is like calling critics of Benito Mussolini "fascists".
Calling critics of the Iraq War "racists" is like calling critics of Benito Mussolini "fascists".
Or calling critics of Bush retards.
It is such a perfect example of how they really don't understand racism. Real political discourse is just so many magic words learnt by rote from Party-approved grimoires and mouthed to get a target response, as anyone who's dissected "compassionate conservatism" or rightist economics ("Um, you should cut our taxes, for this reason...and now we need to cut taxes and slash regulation, for this other reason over here...[repeat ad infinitum]). Similarly, Bug Man could not have been stupid enough to believe the "angry black male stole my draft card" defense he gave (while holding a flag!), but he does know enough of us were stupid enough to tolerate it.
Kei & Yuri,
Freedom cannot tolerate your covert racistism. Fancy words are always a scapegoat for terror.
Another Hitler parallel! Recall the constance of the Nazi line that it was all in defense. In defense against the Jewish conspiracy, in defense against Slavic bloodlust and the unstoppable aggression of the Polish jugernath, in defense against Commie agents poisoning the Heimat from within. People who accused the Nazis of racism were racist against Germans and did not think Slavs could "self-govern" in the "democracies" he would set up for them after liberation from Stalin.
jr - I agree, especially with regard to the Kurds. It is complex, and I no doubt oversimplified in my comment. I'm hardly an expert on the subject anyway - I was summing up some of what I've read over the last year.
Honestly, my thoughts are scattered today because there seems to be no end to the shit that this administration has dragged this country into. It just doesn't stop.
I just think you're being too abstract
perhaps you're right. but, to argue my case once more: racism is simply a subset of tribalism-- the more you can differentiate the "other", the easier disenfranchising them becomes. note the level of vitriol towards the frogs, err, french last year...
but i see your point.
We agree with the fat one! "Tribalism" is a more useful word (and plus it reminds of the deep historical parallel, see "the bible", and it burns the mental fat of the PC primitivity-worship).
Sorry Lime Rickey, considering the almost daily BushCo scandals and outrages, I'm less interested in reading light verse than I am in reading the riot act to our government.
Calling critics of the Iraq War "racists" is like calling critics of Rush Limbaugh "big fat idiots", SWR.
It's insane. It's wrong.
but K Stone:
he keeps the rest of us (well, me anyway) from drooling and banging my head against the keyboarddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
Actually, far from critics being the racists--the war was waged on a racist premise. I blogged on it here.
"...don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern...I believe that people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern. I believe that people whose skins ...are a different color than white can self-govern."
To me the creepiest thing about Bush's comment is how he shifts from race to religion and then back to race.
No time to read the whole thread, so I might be twinking someone, but what's really galling here is that, brown-skinned (some of them) or not, hook-nosed (even fewer) or not, Arabs are as "white" as Georgie Boy Himself.
I remember reading something years ago, about Anwar Sadat being technically a "white" man, even with that superb Coppertone Tan he was born with.
I Goooooooogled Arab and Caucasian just to check (sorry, no links), and, yuppers, they're as caucasian as you can get. Well, OK, not as Caucasian as some people can get, but you know what I mean. White truly ia a state of mind, I think.
Bush is racist. These statements -- which he used in his embarrassing press conference last week too -- prove it.
Did you see Bush say yesterday that if he and Cheney had anything to hide from the 9/11 inquiry, then they would not have co-operated with it?
Pitty one of the smart ass journos did not say, "is that why Cheney won't allow the public to see his energy task force plans?"
Every time Bush tries to be smart he drops himself in the shit. But no one follows it up.
"Uniter, not a Divider..."
Funniest line ever.
No time to read the whole thread, so I might be twinking someone, but what's really galling here is that, brown-skinned (some of them) or not, hook-nosed (even fewer) or not, Arabs are as "white" as Georgie Boy Himself.
The President of Syria
Whiter than some of my German American relatives.
Well, there must be a reason that people oppose him. It cant' be because of his policies it must something else
Bush does look like the Count. "One, one question, ah, ha, ha!"
Jeff. You're exactly right. I've been saying it ad naseum for a year.
Saddam was not remotely connected with al Qaida. Saddam was, in fact, despised by fundamentalist Muslims for his secularism. He was not a state sponsor of terrorism (unless you count the bounty for Palestinian suicide bombers) and didn't support terrorist networks. What was he guilty of? Being Arab.
The equivalent would be blaming the Poles for an IRA bombing in London because they're both Catholic and more or less white.
Of course collectively blaming a race for an act of terror could have its advantages.
Too bad somebody didn't decide to invade the USA and institute a regieme change because the Russians turned Chechnya into a moonscape.
Saddam was not just despised by fundamentalists for his secularism. He was a deadly opponent of fundamentalism, armed specifically for squashing Shi'ite Iran but also US-supported for his suppression and assassination of smaller threats. Truly an ally in the War on Terror.
Well, there must be a reason that people oppose him. It cant' be because of his policies it must something else
It's just the standard right wing victim whining.
You know, if you shove a hippie at an anti-war demo and he says "fuck you" that means he's trying to suppress your free speech.
If you try to slash time and a half and radically restribute income upwards, that means any liberal who calls attention to it is obsessed with class.
If a troll on Atrios gets called for his stupidity, than he's being persecuted for being a "maverick."
What's the big deal?
From that segment the Prez was lamblasting other conservatives since they're the only ones saying that darkies can't self-govern?
I don't know why he made this claim since it was either Wolf', Perle, or one of those other KKK-sympathizing republicans who said that democracy in Iraq might be impossible.
MYOB'
.
I'm so embarrassed I don't know how much more I can take.
We'll need to set up scream therapy centers across America for the sane people.
"tribalism" is a weasel-word.
IT'S RACISM AND IT'S ABOUT FUCKING TIME YOU GOT USED TO IT!!!!
"tribalism" is a weasel-word.
IT'S RACISM AND IT'S ABOUT FUCKING TIME YOU GOT USED TO IT!!!!
David Ehrenstein | Email | Homepage | 04.30.04 - 6:35 pm | #
Yes, we all need to get used to and follow your prescribed method of speech.
I'm all for recognizing racism and other bad things... but you're sounding a lot like a Religious fundamentalist when you scream that we all have to talk your way.
Shorter Bush
"Th... the... them... them thar sand niggers can self... self... self-govern, once they come down from the trees... I think. And we said that before, didn't we Dick? I mean, look at Condi. She even speaks good."
since when are iraqis brown, anyway? all the iraqis i've met and all the ones i've seen in pictures seem to be a sort of tan/beige/orangeish-pinkish... oh, you know, the same color as so-called white people. what does bush think, that iraqis are hispanic or something? or does he think they're a mix of caucasian and negro? oh how embarassing to have this jerkoff in the white house...
well, i expected this thread not to be so heavy, but i was wrong. i think the idea of rove putting this brownskin thing out there as a meme might be right (george, too stupid). he clearly loves the hot buttons. knows how to push em too. and it could work. it's all about the base. people in here clearly identify the projection in the issue. but georges base are more like the description of the caught in the headlites parents of the iraqi prisoner gaurds, who come from east bum fuck western md. nothing but dead grass, farms, and deer hunters out there. for those rethugs who are slightly more urbane like my ex marine BAC brother it absolves them of the guilt of 'white mans oppresivenes' so it works there too. besides george loves jesus so my brother is a lock. what i want to know is what happened to the WMD , oh yea, as brian c.b. points out that's not why we are there either. June 30th sovereignty or bust. "Meglaaa---Mania, step down, your not Jeeesus" incubus
C'mon everybody, it's Friday afternoon! Let's take our clothes off and put hoods on and make human pyramids!!!!
It's so much fun!!!
Then we can take some pics!!!
Tribalism is actually a very good word because it can be used to define different kinds of "tribes." Racism, nationalism, and religious bigotry are all manifestations of the same mindset -- defining the despised other and giving oneself and one's group a "superior" and "unique" identity. In the Dub's world, white Americans are superior to all others, but Americans of any color are superior to Iraqis or the French, and Fundamentalist Christian true-believers cross all ethnic, racial, and national lines, unless they happen to be pro-peace.
thank god there are still white men willing to pick up the burden of liberating the little brown peoples!!!
Maybe Bush was referring to the new breed of right-wing critics of the Iraq occupation - like O'Reilly - who basically argue that Iraqis don't deserve our help because they're so stupid and thankless. In that sense, Bush is right.
what a way to celebrate the sacrifices of the dead Latino, black, and asian-american soldiers... this country is becoming more of a joke everyday.
OT -- but the State of California has banned Diebold electronic voting machines and is seeking criminal and civil penalties against Diebold. The ban de-certifies 15,000 Diebold machines.
Bush is right. I think liberals are racists. Not by conviction, but by policy. Liberals want to defeat Bush. SO liberals say Iraqis should not have been liberated, to embarras the president. Saddam was a rapist and a murderer. Every Iraqi is happy he is goone. Why did liberals not want the US to spill its sons and daughters blood (inevitable in any war) to liberate 25 million Iraqis? I think its racism by policy. Why do liberals constantly say the Iraqis wants us out and don't want us to build a democracy every time a small group of Iraqis protests against the US? Liberals do NOT want to help the Iraqis be a democratic free nation. Why not? why do you hate these people so? You don't hate them. You guys just don't care about them. All you care about is embarrasing Bush by pointing at small anti-American protests and at every American soldier who dies. You hate Iraqis, because Bush liberated them. You hate them, because you hate Bush. You guys hope the liberation of Iraq doesn't succeed, because that would embarrass Bush and might turn the American people against Bush and they might vote him out. Liberals aren't against war. You were very pro Clintons wars. You know it is sick and frightening how liberals hate Bush so much they want bad things to happen to the Iraqis and to our soldiers. Liberals are suick in this respect. I advise you to check yourself, because Middle America sees what I just described and will punish liberal Kerry for his perfidity.
I don't know if this has been stated, but what "color" is the world's largest democracy?
A freak show, a carnival side show, circus clown? Sad but true. All Americans and the whore media must start taking this man's stupid unscriped utterances literally.
OT -- but the State of California has banned Diebold electronic voting machines and is seeking criminal and civil penalties against Diebold. The ban de-certifies 15,000 Diebold machines.
Fucking fantastic.
I want to see indictments all around, for the fascist collaborators. I can only hope...
Damn straight Ricky! You show 'em! Sign your ass right up for the United States Army! "Army of One," baby! I got a recruiter on the phone right now and he's fired up to tell you all abo...
Ricky? Christ, he was just here. Where'd he go? Should I leave the brochures by the monitor?
"Why do liberals constantly say the Iraqis wants us out ...?"
'cause they keep shooting at us and killing our soldiers. it's kind of hard to feel the love there, Ricky.
Iraqis know exactly what's going on. The US is not there to liberate but to dominate and control their country and their resources.
Bush is the only one talking about this in racial terms. Iraqis don't buy Bush's "white man's burden" theory of bringing democracy to the dark peoples by blowing them up and killing them, neither do Americans on the left.
spiritraveller, David is a good guy- just very passionate.
Big difference from being a fundamentalist- he's got a flexible mind.
Energy like David's is needed to fuel our movement. As different individuals working for similar goals, we just have to learn how to keep our energy focused on reaching those goals. Listening to each other and thinking before we respond is a big part it.
It's called working together as a Party.
Even us Democrats can do it.
"There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern."
This from a man who has establishing an appointed government, ruled out direct elections for a replacement for that government and who has plans to turn whatever government that comes about to be more of a "protectorate" than Hong Kong used to be (quaint word isn't it for puppet colonial government?). Oh, and before I forget, the United States will be running the military too.
The comments above remind me of, oh, what's his name, the guy who used to publish The Progressive. He really shut up Old Midge D. by pointing out that Reagan didn't want democracy here so we shouldn't be surprised that he didn't want it anywhere else.
Bush II calling for democracy in the middle-east, now that's rich.
That ain't the real Ricky. Ricky can't write anything that long without mentioning women in skins.
"Arabs are as "white" as Georgie Boy Himself." According to the federal forms I have in my office, "White (not of Hispanic origin)" = "Persons having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa, or the Middle East."
Skins? Wouldn't Amazones wear armore?
could we pay texas to repossess texas?
John G... right on.
And Ahmed Chalabi is the Ferdinand Marcos of Iraq.
The stupid ass does this all the time. When he was being questioned about his National Guard service, he kept implying that those challenging his service record were actually indirectly mocking the current National Guard. Anyone remember? It's really quite simple - this guy is a stupid bully punk without an ounce of true character.
John,
good point, an Indian friend of mine in school always liked to point out that India is actually the world's largest democracy. I'd be suprised if Bush know's this though.
Mmmm... Mexican Breakfast...
Iraqis == white (many iraqis have
auburn hair).
Caucasian == Muslim (all of the
Caucus is Islamic)
GWB = "Grand Wizard" Bush
"I don't know if this has been stated, but what "color" is the world's largest democracy?"
White. That's how it sees itself -- White.
Sure we're not a white country.
But as a white man, I can freely admit we are ran by rich white men.
My saying it isn't racist.
Bush is right. I think liberals are racists. Not by conviction, but by policy. Liberals want to defeat Bush. SO liberals say Iraqis should not have been liberated, to embarras the president.
what a load of crap. The essence of being liberal is to be inclusive, to understand, to share. You self-serviing morally bankrupt greedy swine known as Republicans only know one thing: hate.
Put your ass where your mouth is and go volunteer for the Army instead of sitting in your bedroom, and spewing your vile bile.
Saddam was a rapist and a murderer. Every Iraqi is happy he is goone. Why did liberals not want the US to spill its sons and daughters blood (inevitable in any war) to liberate 25 million Iraqis? I think its racism by policy.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe us liberals do not agree with the concept of war waged on the offensive? Bush invaded a soveriegn nation on the phony premise of WMD. It had nothing to do with liberating people, and no, I do not want to spill our blood for offensive efforts.
Odd, Bush didn't butting his nose in Haiti's business a few months back. I think Aristide is browner than the Iraqi's, if that is his standard....
Why are you anti-war liberals so opposed to establishing representative government in Iraq? Is it all part of your distaste for globalism? Think the Iraqis are going to take your jobs? Grow up and start advocating the advancement of human rights instead of being a bunch of moral cowards.
Never tried a Mexican breakfast, but it sounds as if it resembles the traditional English breakfast with a sort of Latino twist... tasty, if you like that sort of thing.
PS dave, d'you think there'd be a niche market (amongst the bloggers and the l33t h4x0rz) for a bumper sticker reading as follows:
"b0rk/chenz0r 04 = pwn3d"?
Just drawing inspiration from Old Hat.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe us liberals do not agree with the concept of war waged on the offensive? Bush invaded a soveriegn nation on the phony premise of WMD. It had nothing to do with liberating people, and no, I do not want to spill our blood for offensive efforts.
Anne giles
No ... THAT thought never occurred to him. That thought contained far too many syllables for it to have occurred to him.
Great news. !
Rush Limbaugh will overdose and die from prescription pain killers in the next 14 months.
And Bush will hang himself when he finally figures out how pissed God really is at him.
Never give up hope. These basterds will hang them selves in the bitter end.
Hey man, it's God's will. And God is just and good. And the Bush crime family will fall hard. The harder they come, the harder they fall (thank you Jimmy Cliff for the insperation)
Why are you anti-war liberals so opposed to establishing representative government in Iraq? Is it all part of your distaste for globalism? Think the Iraqis are going to take your jobs? Grow up and start advocating the advancement of human rights instead of being a bunch of moral cowards.
Toby Petzold | Email | Homepage | 05.01.04 - 3:45 am | #
Advancement of human rights? Are you so stupid that you think that the purpose of this war was to advance human rights?
It definitely wasn't to advance the human rights of Iraqis... and it definitely wasn't to advance YOUR human rights either. It was to advance Bush's and his friends' rights to take large quantities of oil from the region, and to seek vengeance from their enemy.
If you're so goddamned intent on "advancing human rights" maybe you should be the first infantryman off the boat to "liberate" Communist China. There's only a billion people over there. But hey, it's your duty as an American to go to far off lands and kill people so they can be free... Have at it!
Caucasian == Muslim (all of the
Caucus is Islamic)
OT, a bit, but this is not in fact true, and I'm a stickler for this kind of thing. Yes, there are many Muslims in the Caucuses, but there are also many Christians and Jews. In Georgia, for example, only about 10-12% of the population is Muslim. Armenia, as well.
And BTW, India, the world's most populous democracy (and, barring one episode in the 1970s, one of the most consistently democratic former European colonies) is, I believe, almost entirely populated by our "little brown brothers."
Also OT (all the other threads are so damn long): if you haven't check out Juan Cole's blog, especially yesterday's guest commentary on the meaning of Falluja.
White. That's how it sees itself -- White.
David Ehrenstein
David, I'm sure that's how the Bu$h $yndicate sees it.
But do you accept their version of reality?
I don't, and I don't think you do either.
I'm blond and blue eyed but realize the fallacy of the White label.
I really don't think there's anything like the supermajority of Whiteness here the Christian coalition wants to propagate as the "truth".
I grew up in the "White" South. And despite what the numbers say, I think there are many, many non-whites there. Even a lot of the "white" people don't live up to the fantasy.
If we are to remain a Democracy, we have to grow beyond the White label.
We have to start seeing each other as human beings regardless of race or gender.
India, the world's most populous democracy (and, barring one episode in the 1970s, one of the most consistently democratic former European colonies) is, I believe, almost entirely populated by our "little brown brothers."
Actually, not everybody in India looks like the stereotypical Indian, "Apu" in terms of skin color, or heck even race. Northeastern India is populated with people who resemble Tibetans/Burmans in physique. India also has a group of people called the Siddhis, who are of African origin. It's a diverse place.
Bush believes what he says.
Brown folks CAN govern themselves, and he knows it...
Why do you think successive US governments have tried so hard to keep things all fucked up in the middle east?
He absolutely knows they can govern themselves. That's why he's trying so hard to ensure they never have the chance.
"There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern."
Yes George, and most of them are members of your own party.
Yes, see Greg Palast's comments on the systematic disenfranchisement of non-white voters in the Nation
Perhaps the "some people" that George heard this from was his brother Jeb.
"You self-serviing morally bankrupt greedy swine known as Republicans only know one thing: hate."
Thanks for the self-parodying quote of the week.
Separately, anne giles needs to clarify what defines 'sovereignty' within a massively unpopular dictatorship.
"There's a lot of people in the world who don't believe that people whose skin color may not be the same as ours can be free and self-govern. I reject that. I reject that strongly. I believe that people who practice the Muslim faith can self-govern."
Hey George,
Ever heard of us, asshole? Fuck off.
sincerely,
Republic of Turkey
Indeed. The Republic of Turkey gained a lot of respect in my book when its Parliament voted down a proposal to let the US launch part of its invasion of Iraq from Turkey despite huge bribes from the US.
I should have thought that that incident would have been enough to convince the Bush regime that "democracy" was not what they wanted in the Middle East. Somehow, the Bushistas seems to equate "democracy" with "people who agree with us."
There must be periodic memo put out by Karl Rove with the subject line "Opponents of the Iraw War Straw-Man of the Month".
This month's is: Opponents of the war don't believe non-whites are capable of democracy. Begin widest possible dissemination immediately.
Of course, the "They don't believe Saddam was a bad man" is always the fall back.
There must be periodic memo put out by Karl Rove with the subject line "Opponents of the Iraw War Straw-Man of the Month".
This month's is: Opponents of the war don't believe non-whites are capable of democracy. Begin widest possible dissemination immediately.
Of course, the "They don't believe Saddam was a bad man" is always the fall back.
that's "Iraq War" (w right next to the q)
Maybe he was speaking to his own party! 
Scorpio
Eccentricity
Ever notice that the same camp that claims we are in Iraq to free them are also the quickest to call them "towel heads" and offer the idea of nuking the whole area as a solution?
paul, the only people I know likely to refer to arabs as towel heads are your fellow racist anti-internationalists over on the white supremacist boards. maybe you should ask yourself in earnest why you share their "america first" isolationism and fatalism re: misbegotten backwards brown folk. Or is it only fatalism when the republicans are in charge of adminstering the remedy? The only opinion i care about vis a vis iraq is the IRAQi one, which by and large seems more accomodating of americans and overall more optimistic than you lot would ever acknowledge. Maybe you and others on this board need to read more from primary sources, beginning maybe with some iraqi blogs; for a bunch of intellectual snobs, none of you seem to read very much (off the reading list, that is.) all your "informed comment" cfomes from the same slanted sources, your right wing bogey men are all of your own crude device.
Rahim, let's examine the premises behind the invasion of Iraq, and how they stand up, today:
1. No WMDs
2. Not greeted as liberators
3. Middle East democracy dominoes? Go to the boneyard!
4. Wahhabism, terrorism on the rise
5. Iraqi oil not paying for war
6. Americans not safer
7. World not safer
8. Saddam bad man gone, no more rape rooms, but ...
9. Testicle electrocuting and Mapplethorpe posing rooms
So basically, it's 8 to 1 against the war on the fly.
You bait-and-switching cocksucker.
whether americans are greeted uniformly as liberators is less interesting than whether the ouster of hussein was welcomed by a majority of iraqis. since we mostly agree that it WAS welcomed, lets not invoke 'sovereignty' as a reason to condemn the invasion. Nothing is sovereign about a nation ruled at gunpoint. A majority of Iraqis consider their lives to be better now than before the war, and a large majortiy express optimism that their futures look better than they would have been under husseins rule.
WMDs are and have been secondary to many supporters of this war, though Hussein seemed intent on acquiring banned weapons over and over again (per his own admission and numerous UN and US reports.) He also fired on US spyplanes enforcing the 91 cease fire (actually, "surrender" but lets not quibble.)
'Iraqi oil' is less imprtant to me than a decade long ineffective sanction regime, used as propaganda to validate anti american hatred across the arab worl for over a decade. Dumbfucks like you probably think anti americanism among arabs is a recent phenomenon but i assure you it isnt. When the US does businmess with the husseins and the shahs and the emirs, it is "propping up dictators" ... when sanctions are imposed, we are "baby killers"' ... when we make any effort to depose them under UN auspices we are "colonialists." In all cases, we are Zionist pawns. Even the attacks in riyadh and yanbu are blamed on jews.
"Wahabism and terrorism on the rise..." huh? What that has to do with anything is a mystery. If you think the arab world needs a US invasion to "recruit" terrorists youre kidding yourself. Saudi Arabians performed 9/11 and we havent invaded that country, controlled its oil or influenced its governance since its foundation. Pop quiz, dummie... is it wahhabs working to topple the saudi government right now?? is it wahhabs fighting us in iraq? is al sadr a wahhab?
You need to read more primary arab media, and more often. You seem rather clueless.
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