I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
...and who is to do this investigating?
No one's ever crossed the CIA and lived.
FRIST!
er, secnod.
Maybe Rumsfeld is waiting for the rape of children and women pix to come out before resigning, to save his successor some trouble.
Max does nail it...
yes! to a special prosecutor. Can congress do this end around past the pentagon?
Boykin's head on a platter.
We need to keep the pressure on through the information fog the Bush administration will activate, to see how far up the chain of command this goes. We cannot let the few poor slobs at the bottom go down for these crimes without having them take the higher ups with them.
Following orders goes right to the top in this scenario.
Max was wrong about Ted Rall. Left wing anti-working class prejudice? Who the fuck is he talking about? College kids? Sawicky is starting to lose it.
>Sawicky is starting to lose it.
Max is respected because he is a straight shooter. Which means that you won't always like where he hits, but you know that it is where he was aiming.
A standout among all the other outrages in this wretched affair is the behavior of the right-wing bloviators: Rush, O'Lielly, Kate O'Biern, Novak, and many othes. First they tried to change the subject by reminding us of the people who died on 9/11. Then they tried to qualify it, telling us "this is nothing compared to what Sadaam did." Then they returned to the old Vietnam chestnut, "don't mention this, because it undermines our troops. Only traitors would be liberal enough to criticize our President about this." Now they've all apparently settled on the talking point, "this was the action of a few bad apples."
"I was only following orders" is not a valid excuse, but it is ludicrous to suggest that untrained fry cooks, on duty less than a few weeks in some cases, decided to 'let off some steam' as Rush would have it, and perpetrate these outrages. Of course they were instructed to debase these prisoners as profoundly as imaginable.
Granted, this shit goes on in war (and in prisons stateside) and we are naive to pretend otherwise. But what the right-wingers refuse to admit is that we are dealing with the worst public relations problem in history. And ignoring it or changing the subject ain't gonna help.
We also disagreed with Max about Rall, but because he was very wrong there (he also never pointed out anything wrong that Rall had said). Generally we have enormous respect for him and certainly in this post we agree to keep fishing till you actually catch something and don't believe Rummy when he tells you the worm is dinner. How can you not?
I respect Max's focus on policy. I think thats the only approach to liberalism. But his rant about Ted Rall was off the mark. He was crossing a whole bunch of us out here that respect BOTH max and ted rall.
Maybe Rumsfeld is waiting for the rape of children and women pix to come out before resigning, to save his successor some trouble.
I'm thinking that the additional photos and video won't be released through traditional media. I have the impression that a rationale is forming for not broadcasting or publishing "the worst that is yet to come" because doing so would only serve to further inflame folks' anger -- and endanger the troops.
A major Congressional investigation would be helpful - has anybody heard suggestions that this might actually happen?
OT
WHY DO THEY HATE US? WAS IT THE TELEVISIONS? IS THAT YOUR FINAL ANSWER?
a Pakistani immigrant was murdered by Macedonian security forces, to impress Americans and get at the actual meaning of the "war on terror" (money/gear/$upport), according to the Macedonian government. From the Guardian by way of Common Dreams.
"I respect Max's focus on policy. I think thats the only approach to liberalism."
bohr-ring! us liberals should refrain from publicly discussing policy (that will be decided in smoky backrooms with whiskey and strippers). we need to frame the debate in terms that we americans understand.
vote george off the island. see america is one great big reality show and george just ate the last fucking potato. the bitch ate the last god damn potato. hey america, let's vote the potato eater off the island.
policy is for limp wristed ninnies who criticize football for being too violent.
initially i was being ironic but after re-reading this post i think it's true.
See what I commented on Max's blog.
Thank you Charles. I've been mulling over some simliar words to post on my own blog. I'm getting weary of every misdeed and misstep of the Bush administration and military leadership being wrapped up in, "Stop it!! You're demoralizing our men and women in uniform!"
[rant]Well, fuck me. No one held a gun to anyone's head and made anyone enlist. Serving in the military is a noble endeavor, but unless there's conscription in place (which there's not), every person in Iraq wearing the American flag on their shoulder volunteered. Joining the military entails certain risks, like going to war and getting killed. It's in the job description.
It isn't right that these "kids" get place in harms way by graybeard assholes with hidden agendas, or that they got roped into Fallujah Follies because of a flag-wrapped recruiting sales pitch full of half lies (short version: avenging 9/11). But they're there.
What I say, or Max says, or Atrios says, or Tom Brokaw says, or George Bush says means not one damn thing to the armed services in Iraq. The cries of "support the troops" and "we can't dissent too loud because it will demoralize the troops", is cast iron bullshit for domestic U.S. consumption only.
The best way we can support the men and women in Iraq is to get some sane leadership at the helm, and then get them back here as cleanly and quickly as possible.
BTW, in case you're wondering, I'm a Vietnam era vet.
[/rant]
Thomas Friedman is a FUCKING LUNATIC!
This from his column today...
"As I said, the Bush team has made a mess in Iraq. And I know that Abu Ghraib will be a lasting stain on the Pentagon leadership. But here's what else I know from visiting Iraq: There were a million acts of kindness, generosity and good will also extended by individual U.S. soldiers this past year — acts motivated purely by a desire to give Iraqis the best chance they've ever had at decent government and a better future. There are plenty of Iraqis and Arabs who know that.
Yes, we Americans need to look in a mirror and ask why we've become so radioactive. But the Arabs need to look in a mirror too. "They are using our mistakes to avoid their own necessity to change, reform and modernize," says the Mideast expert Stephen P. Cohen."
Is he on FUCKING CRACK? And what's this "we Americans shit?" He fucking pushed this war. We pushed back. And he is trying to pawn it off on us?
Same Tom Friedman that everyone was cannonizing the other day because he called for Rummy's scalp.
I said at the time that Friedman was being a journalistic opportunist, and how could you look past his two-faced drum beating of the past two years?
He waffles worse than Bush.
Thank you MR.Cranium for reminding us to stay on task.
Regarding modernization: is it not a truth of history that fear, terror and "coercion" are not only not helpful to position growth, but are often deliberately used to Pavlov up some gut reactions? In 1870, nobody questioned Bismarck to the point of altering policy or stalling war with France. They shut up, screamed "we're being attacked", fell into line to the extent of building a new nation and the whole thing was predictable. Or look at the post-IX/XI Shrub transformation from Bozo to Churchill.
Point being, if it is true as Friedman presupposes (and we do go crazy for his Ambein-induced presuppositions) that instead of a Soviet-replacing bogey we want a modern Arabian friend, what on earth in any of our actions towards them either leads a reasonable person to believe this or confirms it for a minute?
Gyaa! This whole Iraqi campaign is like the whole damned 20th Century on crystal meth!
I can see through time!
Within the past year, I seem to recall having read that Israeli intelligence operatives had joined the "coalition forces" in order to lend their expertise to the interrogation of prisoners, in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
Am I mistaken, or does that ring a bell with anyone else?
If true, think that might further muck things up?
I watched the whole senate and house Rummy hearing. Several panel members stated that they do not believe that only a few enlisted are involved and demanded an investigation up the entire chain of command. Both house and senate also stated that they do not trust the pentagon to investigate itself, and stated there are going to be congressional investigations.
Question "How does the term Special Prosecutor translate into Arabic?"
Answer - "It doesn't". We are just masturbating ourselves, and the Arabs would only understand if we started now with a cutting off of a certain female private's hands, now. Thus the differences between us and them, and one more reason we should never have tried to place our system in theirs.
To: President George W. Bush
From: Mr. John K. Fabiani
Subject: Write a General Comment on National Security (Iraq)
Dear President Bush, Commander in Chief,
Do not scapegoat the soldiers for the shameful prisoner abuse.
Soldiers follow orders. There is a chain of command. Responsibility
for the breakdown in discipline lies at the top of the chain of command.
Sincerely,
John Fabiani
The Tagube report is pretty explicit that the incarceration problems are widespread, systemic, and reach well up the chain of command. I guess Rumsfeld really hasn't read it.
I spent 8 yaers active duty army. There is no doubt that the treatment of prisoners in Gitmo, Afghanistan, and Iraq are extralegal and system wide. RUMMY stated that Afghanistan prisoners are not covered by the Geneva Convention (not POW's -so called enemy combatants=terrorists). This policy of not being POWs is in place also in Cuba and Iraq.
A fish rots from the head down.
With the throwing American citizens into militart prison, (supremes now deciding case) with no charges, and no legal representation IN AMERICA, you can clearly see w's mindset. If I say someone is an enemy combatant, throw them in the gulag- NO APPEAL, just his fucking say so. IF the supremes allow this blatantly unconstitutional executive decsion to stand, he could throw the supremes that vote against it into prison, if he wants to.
It's 50 years from now, you're the historian, and you're writing still another critical book of the Bush presidency.
After the prelims and the domestic follies, you're two-thirds through and then what do you say?
I'd go with, "It was Iraq that ruined him..."
veritas: (concurring) recall the prison revolt in Afghanistan, in which a CIA guy died, and the allegations of torture there. Recall that they are allowing these kids to keep the impression that their charges were somehow the IX/XI planners. If you were 19, in a manly violent military culture, were ordered and encouraged by superiors to soften up your country's enemies and seriously thought you had one of the people really responsible for IX/XI in your hands...it would get a lot worse than panties and handcuffs. Graham and Rummy are right to mention, oh, by the way, worse things are coming (but of course they know what they're talking about).
"I said at the time that Friedman was being a journalistic opportunist, and how could you look past his two-faced drum beating of the past two years?"
Mr. Friedman is a wimp-assed cunt-faced spineless rectum of a reporter. Although it takes people like him to indicate where the political winds are truly blowing. The tone says "bye-bye Bush."
To hell with our troops. A professional soldier is a parasite. These guys are in it for the money or some kind of benefits. Or did I miss something and they re-instituted the draft?
Anyone who would join or serve in the American military under Bush's illegitimate regime is an ignorant, moral degenerate. No decent person would be associated with an organization whose principal purpose is to destroy property and kill people. Bush and his fellow gangsters use the military only for their own power and enrichment.
The torture and taunting of naked Iraqis shows what perverts our troops are.
Here's when I'll support our troops: when they have the courage to say no to a criminal war and an illegitimate commander in chief.
Sorry this is completely off topic.
As we all know Massachusetts will start issuing certificates for marriage to gay couples on May 17th.
Wouldn't it be sweet if we could send them flowers like in San Francisco? Does anybody know of any Gay Friendly florists in Mass?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/20...5/8/215931/
2367
George Apley- and it was by doing NOTHING to prevent 9/11 before or ON 9/11 that allowed him to a great terrorist fighter.....
Well thank goodness that the President didn't get a blow job from an intern in the Oval Office.
THAT would be the real atrocity.
Sorry this is completely off topic.
As we all know Massachusetts will start issuing certificates for marriage to gay couples on May 17th.
Wouldn't it be sweet if we could send them flowers like in San Francisco? Does anybody know of any Gay Friendly florists in Mass?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/20...5/8/215931/
2367
whoops, sorry forthe double post.
Justice will not be served until Bush, Cheney, Wolfie, Rummy and the rest are in the dock right next to Saddam, Osama and other mass murderers.
General Karpenski should resign in disgrace. It was her fucking command. The Captain goes down with the ship by God and she has jumped overboard while her crew drowns. Her weak excuses don't cut it.
This whole clusterfuck is due to the appalling leadership vacumn that starts in the WH.
After her, keep going up the chain of command.
You know... My memory is kinda hazy from the UCMJ classes from basic training, but I distinctly recall that military personnel could disobey an order if it were clearly illegal. I believe the relevant Articles are 90, 91 and 92. In addition, I believe that the UCMJ requires soldiers not to do anything that would be in violation of the Constitution or International Laws that the US has agreed to follow, like the Geneva Convention. For these reasons, "I was just following orders" is NOT a valid defense. It hasn't been since Nuremburg.
DEFEND OUT SOLDIERS
Max is right on target. We need to enforce the point that the failure at Abu Ghraid was systemic and reached to the very top. The best way to do this is to Defend Our Soldiers. Don't let them be the scapegoats in this.
Is there a defense fund that has been set up? If so, we should publicize it and contribute to it.
As patriots we love America and love our soldiers and it is despicable that Bush and Rumsfeld are trying to make inexperienced soldiers on the ground pay for the politicians' mistakes.
We can totally blow away Rush, O'Reilly and gang by building a strong campaign for the defense of our soldiers. Place blame where it belongs: At the top!
Appoint a special prosecutor!
K & Y- I agree 100%. If my superiors told me these were the 9/11 enablers it would be awful hard to feel ANY pity. However I believe w was a 9/11 enabler. He ordered the FBI to stop investigating Saudi's pre 9/11. Iraq has hundreds of women in the prisons. I doubt they are terrorists.
I agree with the fact that that these soldiers should be punished, but as far as I know about the military, the people at the bottom do not make ANY decisions on their own. I hardly believe that these people that are going down for this took it upon themselves to torture these prisoners.
Hey ever seen "Paths of Glory"? If not go rent it.
clearly the problem here is left-wing anti-working class prejudice. (wtf?)
FARMER JOHN- you are entitled to your opinion, but my opinion is you should stick to farming. Career soldiers are parasites, immoral, etc.. Their just in it for pay and benefits. No one gets rich in the military. The military is a necesary evil, just like the cops.
Farmer John:
That's really uncalled for.
I served under Reagan/Bush. I hated both of them. I didn't like nor approve of 100% of what they did, stood for--whatever. But the military was the way out for someone like me who had no education, no prospects, and little chance of getting either without some help. Not where I lived. Not with my circumstances. You can say that I could have found other ways. Well, sure, if I wanted to live in a homeless shelter or marry some redneck or stand on a street corner. But I didn't want to do any of those things. And maybe a lot of these soldiers don't want to do things like that, either.
Maybe some of them have other reasons for serving (family tradition, college money, patriotism, whatever). I don't know. But lack of opportunity was mine, and, when I was in, it was the reason most of my fellow AF personnel were there.
'Paths of Glory' is great all right, maybe the best anti-war movie ever made---and do you know that it's still banned in France?
In a way, Rumsfeld is like the film's two French generals, both arrogant, indifferent to the lives of others, glory seekers, but only one gets what's coming to him, the other survives by shifting blame.
Does Rumsfeld ever rent movies?
ed,
"Paths of Glory" is a great movie. I don't have to rent it; I own a copy. "Breaker Morant", though, comes to my mind in this situation--scapegoats of empire, indeed.
..but the best anti-war movie ever made is "the Grand Illusion".
Is it anti-working class prejudice to say the Tim Mcveys of the world are dangerous? Is it anti-working class prejudice to be worried about the converts to evangelical christianity? To be worried about how dittoheads behave? Sorry, this concept is simply unworkable.
left wing 'anti-working class prejudice'
Now that the Bush administration has been truly put into a corner with the revelations of systemic prisoner abuse, this story wil only broaden and become more visceral (ala Seymour Hersch) in the coming weeks. Watch for some incredible political pyrotechnics as the administration attempts to mitigate the damage. I am convinced the administration's (and, more importantly, its political surrogates) responses will backfire and draw further scrutiny by the media.
Bush's "hands-off", compartmentalized approach to governing (one meant to protect the President from any type of responsibility) will begin to implode inward on him.
LJ, you made your choices. I made mine, too. Like I intimated in my rant above, risk is part of the contract.
The "Support Our Troops Rag" isn't playing in the Cranium household any longer.
In Oct the Red Cross gave Gen Karpinski (I didn't know) a detailed report on torture in the prisons under her command. In Jan the PRESIDENT of the Red Cross held meetings with Powell, Rice, and Wolfowitz. Within hours Rummy was notified and the military began seriously investigating. Allegedly NONE of these people told w. This belongs in Ripleys under NOT.
Rumsfeld renting movies: there's a rumor he screened Battle of Algiers for DOD staff, but like Bonzo at Bitburg, those people never seem to pick up on who the bad guys are in movies where it isn't expressly and repeatedly stated.
See also Soldier of Orange, Land and Freedom, the Moon is Down and we see other people already recognized Paths of Glory and Great Illusion. There are a few others...
'Watch for some incredible political pyrotechnics as the administration attempts to mitigate the damage. '...Just release a naked picture of Saddam and all would be forgiven.
Richard Cranium:
I don't recall addressing you. I was addressing Farmer John. Or are you the same person? Hard to tell here in blog-land.
But if you're trying to imply that I've EVER played the Support Our Troops Rag in the key of W-Flat, you are dead-ass wrong. It is presumptuous of you to believe I have.
Anti-working class prejudice on the left is an old thing. I certainly don't think, and did not mean to say, that it is a dominant trend on the left, far from it. But it exists. Elitism comes in all political flavors.
I could have overstated the extent to which such prejudice plays into the Abu G affair. The words I used were "to some extent," which I thought allowed me a lot of latitude.
Max: is it leftist working class hate if you criticise strikebreakers, abusive cops, or people economically in the working class who are politically and tactically on the side of the rulers? What about the morons in the Heartland who think voting Republican is going to "send a message to Wall Street"?
Hersh should avoid light planes for a while.... WE are everywhere, the true patriots, and he has fucked with the wrong pride.
MAX- I always thought the left was the working class and its sympathizer so called limosine liberals.
If Max answers our question, he'll have to explain his stance re Rall and Tillman. We predict he won't answer (see, now to contradict us he has to).
guess Max is in bed, dreaming economic dreams...
k&y -- no to all 3 questions. It does reflect class bias, I would say, to call cops 'pigs.' Like using the n-word to attack an African-American, even if there was some legitimate reason in the individual case. Hateful negative stereotypes applied to an individual, or slurs on a group because of the actions of an individual.
Rall's latest 'toon and column embodied the worst of all these qualities. Referring to the armed forces as 'scum,' and assuming volunteer Tillman was motivated by perversity. (Forget about ripping on dead people; that was just the icing on the cake.) He's a recruiting poster, to coin a phrase, for Freepdom,
veritas -- there are some liberals and leftists who look down upon workers, and there are some leftists who see every soldier as guilty of something bad. Besides being dumb, this is class bias. Military recruits are overwhelmingly drawn from the working class.
One of my commenters made a good point that one can go too far in anti-bias to the point of patronizing people. The soldiers in the pix are adults and responsible for their actions. They deserve fair trials. They don't deserve likening to 'trailer trash' or hicks.
Just keep your eyes on the ball, is all I'm saying. It's the policies and leaders of the national security state, not a handful of grunts.
I've actually already gone to bed and written this in my sleep.
LJ,
I don't recall addressing you. I was addressing Farmer John. Or are you the same person? Hard to tell here in blog-land.
But if you're trying to imply that I've EVER played the Support Our Troops Rag in the key of W-Flat, you are dead-ass wrong. It is presumptuous of you to believe I have.
You're misreading me - I'm right behind you and have walked a mile in your shoes. And no, I'm not Farmer John. I've got a nom or two, but that's not one of them.
So if a cop is busting heads for the other side, hating him is hating his victims?
we have yet to see the enormity of this damage.
and the american ideal is further washed down the sewer of Bush.
pray for the soldier serving honorably. they are fucked.
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