I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Pluto, Bitch!
The Bush Administration: What's Our Motto?
We Do Whatever The F*&K We Want!
Admiring Dictators everywhere since January 20, 2001.
Rock and Roll!
The real significance of this is the coordinated nature of the leaks to both Hersh and Newsweek. Probably many more before this all said and done. There is an undeclared war now between this administration and the intelligence community. A war in which the administration is clearly outgunned.
This is deeply shocking. Perhaps not surprising, but shocking. I do wonder how much George Bush actually knew. I hope he was fully informed, so that he can be held fully liable, but I wonder.
He seems so much like a puppet of the neocon agenda that I doubt he really grasped much of the big picture.
So, then: Hersh, Jeffrey Smith (in today's WaPo), and Newsweek. The story's all over the place, and in exquisite detail. Tomorrow the NYTimes will be obliged to run some long, lumbering catch-up piece.
What Congressional hearings are scheduled for Tuesday next? Anything tied to this story-line?
sw, they are *not* outgunned. This administration has faced countless scandals, many as large as (or larger) in significance and damage as Watergate. Yet, not one administration official has been brought to account. Not one scandal has grown to any length where the media and congress are in open revolt. We still have Rethugs saying this torture was "no big deal".
It is a big thing for Newsweek to corroborate Sy Hersh, but it is not enough. I don't expect the rest of the media will really grab ahold unless those documents are released. Even then, the administration has enough insulation in the form of apologetic congress critters to stave off formal hearings into these Hersh revelations. This is the story for right now, but it will be swept under the rug before to long.
I'll call my grandmother tonight and ask if she's heard of these latest revelations. If she has, I'll believe something has changed...
There is an undeclared war now between this administration and the intelligence community. A war in which the administration is clearly outgunned.
I really never thought I'd find myself cheering on the CIA. Well, I guess the enemy of your enemy is your friend?
Hersh is going to be on with Wolfie...
oh no, Lieberman the bum is going to be on too....and Russert ???
and Ralph Nader!....damn....Will the Revolution be televised?
I can just hear the repugs now (limpdick et el) ...'but, but, but....there have been no terra attacks since 911....so it is okay to do whatever it takes..God, these people are pure evil!!
I think the flood gates are officially open - all the high level people screwed or ignored by the administration are finally fighting back.
It is sad that it took so long, but maybe the system will end up correcting itself.
Was there two different sources for the two articles of the New Yorker and Newsweek?
And when the soldier pleads guilty this week to prisoner abuse will the media finally quit using the term "Alleged abuse"?Seems to me there will be plenty of evidence by the middle of the week.
OT, but I think these guys deserve Eschaton visits: Presidential Prayer Cover, i.e., pray for Gee Dubya Bush.
This is what I put in the "Comments" field:
Yes, I'm going to pray for pResident Bush. I'm going to pray that he is taken out of power for his arrogance in thinking he's God's chosen for this hour. I also am going to pray that he's brought to judgment for his war crimes. Now, that's not the kind of prayer you want for Bush, is it? I didn't think so.
I put my real name, address and phone number on it, because I am not afraid of these people. In fact, I hope to God they call so I can give them more of a piece of my mind.
Oops, forgot to say that you can leave anonymous comments. 
He seems so much like a puppet of the neocon agenda that I doubt he really grasped much of the big picture.
Bush has a certain knack for appearing "uninformed" and "out of the loop." He also does "outrage" very well. I'm afraid I can't decide whether he's more morally corrupt or more clueless. Anybody have an idea?
If the press can relate this to Whitewater, Vince Foster or sex they might really start paying attention.
Uh, "it" might start paying attention... danged grammar.
Mishun Aborted!
Deana, I'm glad you're not afraid but if you think they'll call and debate you, well... best of luck. You'll probably get hit with unwanted mailings, get put on every undesirable phone list in the universe, you're computer might start acting funny from the viruses...
Eric Alterman had a stalker in Los Angeles. He had his flight canceled from LA to NY... someone was able to use his name and killed the flight. These guys are nasty.
For fuck's sake, how many times were they warned of "disaster?"
Every mistake the Maladminstration made was anticipated and warned against by professionals, in this case the uniformed JAG corps.
Every time, the answer was, "Shut the fuck up, Baby Jesus picked us to lead the world and we'll do with it whatever the hell we want."
You know, the Hersh article is suggestive about something else. To a great degree it supports Clarke's observation that the administration was just incapable of uniform activity - all this energy put into bypassing the perceived lackadaisical conduct by the overt US presence. With no one forcing unanimity, here comes Rumsfeld's bastardly effort to 'correct the process.'
...later Rumsfeld himself, impressed by the success of techniques used against Qaeda suspects at Guantanamo Bay...
What successes? al Qaeda is still active and successfully mounting actions, bin Laden in still at large and recruiting, and any info these guys are getting that isn't hopelessly tainted by the realities of coerced confessions is over three years old. I don't define "success" in this area as providing video for moronic borwnshirt fucks to whack off to...
Watching Leslie Blitzer whore for the administration against Hersh...
...a real journalist would, never mind.
...a real man would grow a real beard.
Some lawyers do have principles. Sounds like the JAG lawyers in the military (and some CIA lawyers as well) have leaked this.
But they won't be able to speak out publicly, and William Haynes will deny it all. WIthout documents or witnesses, the story will die.
Only those few more Repubs that read the story will give up on Bush because of this issue. But every bit of Bush falloff in support is a good thing.
Dems in the Senate SHOULD NOT ALLOW HAYNES ON THE US COURT OF APPEALS.
Bush has a certain knack for appearing "uninformed" and "out of the loop." He also does "outrage" very well. I'm afraid I can't decide whether he's more morally corrupt or more clueless. Anybody have an idea?
It was Rummy in the kitchen with a glowstick.
What successes?
Lemme put it this way... torture is not so good for obtaining usable intelligence, but it is really good for intimidating a population into submission.
Why do you think our Brave Heros in Iraq are rounding up people at random and torturing the shit out of them?
Good on you, Deanna. Let us know how it goes.
manyoso:
sw, they are *not* outgunned. This administration has faced countless scandals, many as large as (or larger) in significance and damage as Watergate. Yet, not one administration official has been brought to account.
I suspect things are different now. This has all of the marks of an orchestrated slam by Washington insiders fed up with various aspects of the Bush Regime's misconduct and incompetence.
I think the CIA (one source of the leaks, and probably the primary coordinator of this effort) is entirely aware of your point. Do you really think they are unable to adjust their plans to compensate for that?
The Administration's teflon-to-date stems from two primary sources: The overwhelming complicity of Big Media; and the virulent intransigence of the hardcore right segment of the electorate. The former seems already to be wavering, and the latter is on the defensive due to the sexual (especially homoerotic) content of the Abu Ghraib photographs -- something Bush's base will never be comfortable with.
You can bet that the CIA is carefully timing and orchestrating this stuff. You can bet that the CIA has taken the time to negotiate understandings with professionals and patriots in the military. You can bet that there are at least a few members of Congress who are involved in this campaign to some degree.
And you can bet that the CIA has spent a lot of time cultivating contacts in the press. (Having Newsweek on board is huge.) Whether they have managed to penetrate TV Media is the key question, I think.
Outgunned at last? I'm not as skeptical as manyoso. But I think we're all gonna find out Real Soon Now.
cc,
Not worried at all...because I've dealt with the litigious cult of greed and power. These prayer team people hold no candle to the $cientologists when it comes to harassment.
When you people talk about this story "dying," I get the impression you think that the story came to life a week, a month, or a couple of months ago. But why would you think this? The story started, in its strange inside professional ways, at least three years ago, with Rumsfeld's arrival at the Pentagon. How it played out is an interesting question, and the story can be hard to follow; but the greater significance, at least for me, lies in its obstinate longevity.
"I don't give a shit what happens, I want you to stonewall it." - R. Nixon
For more enlightenment read John W. Dean's 'Worse Than Watergate'.
deana -- Don't use your real email or open anything you don't know the origin of. Especially large files. I got a hotmail account filled w/letter bombs when I was dropping comments on wingnut sites. Open a hotmail or other free-bee account for that stuff. Some of the bombs were from Christian youth group addresses. Be creative and careful if you go fishing in uncharted waters.
There is a UK Guardian story here
US guards "filmed beatings" at terror camp
http://tinyurl.com/2stmc
The Guardian says videos exist that show prisoners being beaten by guards at Guantanamo Bay, illustrating the "insttutionalized feature" of US abuse.
NO! NO! NO! DO NOT READ John W. Dean's 'Worse Than Watergate'!! This is an order!
"success" of these tactics? If they had been successful, we'd have bin Laden by now.
To avoid easy harassment, I always recommend using an e-mail from an ISP that's gone belly up. One year I had three of 'em bail on me - it makes a nice assortment to choose. Also, rather than expose your system to worms or whatnot, you might want to use a text-based mail agent - PINE has saved me many a time.
However, speaking as someone whose name and contact have been on the web since 1994, I can't say that a few quasi-Christians(tm) are going to make a lot of difference. Witness the 48,000 spam messages I just had to take off the GWPDA server.
"I put my real name, address and phone number on it, because I am not afraid of these people. In fact, I hope to God they call so I can give them more of a piece of my mind."
Deana Holmes 05.16.04 - 1:05 pm
I suggest that you immediately change your real name, address and phone number (and e-mail). There's a reason that I no longer use my e-mail address for these comments. Don't open ANYTHING that you can't identify.
Bush knows what is going on - the attempts to paint him as out of the loop are just attempts to buffer him from the political fallout from all of this. Bush has no intellectual curiosity, he doesn't read and he doesn't question. However, he is in charge and he does know what is going on. To continue to suggest otherwise is to buy in to the propaganda that the WH is putting out.
Bush has known about the interrogation techniques and the pictures since at least January. That much has been admitted by several people. I think he's known for much longer, but that's the earliest date that there has been corroboration for.
I think this marks a real change in the press. In the past a story like this would break, then the denials and character assissination would start....and the story would die.
We began to see this played out yesterday with both denials and slams at Hersch. But this time it was different. Various news outlets had their own stories in line that at times corroborate points in the other stories. So it appears there is some spine for the first time and a willingness to follow up and a williness of sources to talk and a willingness by the press to reinforce each other's stories.
Pass the popcorn.
Day late and a dollar short. Newsweek has known about this since Guantanomo bay was established, only now that the story is undeniable do they cover it. And they still haven't touched on the fact that the administration is setting up a gulag of these places to disappear people.
Oh yeah this is going to be waaaaaayyy more fun to watch than Watergate ever was, the only Watergate figure to ever do real time was Liddy, and that was because he set himself up as the "cutout" man (that is to say he was the guy you "took-out" to stop all investigations from going to a higher level) there does not appear to be any such guy in this administration.
So the only real story here is whether or not some JAGS should be charged with insubordination. Oh well, thats what you get when you cross lawyers with soldiers.
Attilla is another parody troll, yes? I mean, it couldn't possibly be serious. No troll wants to look that stupid.
I'm starting to smell either a night of long knives or a coup in the offing.
This is getting really, really, mega-ultra-super-hyper bad.
Mark Bialdowski - Have you ever known another time in your life when it seemed as if there was a chance that one arm of the government might overthrow another? I haven't, not even during Watergate. I was scared the weekend when Nixon lost it and fired everyone and basically barricaded himself in the WH. But even that was nothing compared to this.
BubbaBoBobBrain - I'm voting for Cambone for fallguy.
Tena - Remember Elliott Richardson? I think that was pretty damn close.
Everybody now: go watch the original Seven Days in May.
Today's headline from my Bible Belt city newspaper (northern Alabama):
REPORT: RUMSFELD OK'D ABUSE TACTICS.
Rumsfeld cannot survive this kind of publicity in a "red state." I think he's gone before the month's up, possibly before the week's up.
This is neither shocking or surprising to me that the US government (Pentagon, defense and whoever else)does secret ops that later we're told is "well-meaning" but screwed up in application. Let it all fall down on the heads of the so-called "hillbilly MPs" and lower level officer bureaucrats is ALSO something that is constantly done.
I really think a key to keeping sane about it all is to automatically assume that anything that comes out regarding US government stormtrooper-ish behaviors and aftermath is all just the same old machinations of the little-brained machivellis currently in power. If there is no news we can assume they are just not getting caught ...yet.
AKA Donna
first off, it was mind-bogglingly stupid that the administration would use this system in Iraq. In the case of a shadowy terrorist network, they could get away with it, and most people wouldn't mind too much even if they found out. But what they (Rumsfeld et al) did in Abu Ghraib was just amazingly stupid. Beyond all common sense-- they simply need to be removed from power for their stupidity.
second, I would like to know if all these secret illegal interrogations ever did anything useful. Did they ever stop a major terror attack with this program?
Open a hotmail or other free-bee account for that stuff
Of course, you can just enter a fake email address for a lot of these things. That's what I did when I posted my prayer for the removal of the war criminal Bush and the forgiveness of the world.
tb
Alex, re last paragraph
The question of whether or not unusable tactics "worked" is like begging whether rape or child molestation ever acheives an orgasm-
it does, but in horrible cases of prolonged abuse and mental warping, and the direction you're going in just by asking such a question stinks to high hell.
Torture
is not
on the fucking table
already.
Torture asks, pain answers. No verification, no reliability, no benefit.
NONE. NEVER. Look, fucking crossworshippers accusing "libruls" of "moral relativism", here's something that's ALWAYS true, even when God does it in his sick little dungeon-world.
Forgive my ignorance on this--I've been distracted lately--but what are the implications of the Hersh/Newsweek stories as far as Rumsfeld's recent "appearance" before Congress goes?
First, was he under oath? And if so, do the facts in these stories--if substantiated--contradict any of his sworn testimony?
That is, since the Republicans were so concerned during the Clinton years about the devastating effects of perjury on our national moral fiber, is there any chance Rummy could be busted for perjury?
Just wishful thinking?
Does anyone remember early in this admin when Powell said Rumsfeld was the most ruthless man he'd ever known. Now maybe we know why.
Chunky Phelps - I thought yesterday that there was every reason to believe that Rummy would get slam-dunked for lying to Congress. That was before I read the Hersh article closely. The point is made there that neither Rummy nor Cambone could by law mention the secret ops program in Iraq. Consequently, I think that takes the perjury question off the table, unfortunately.
Sigh.
Thanks, Tena
Hey, how do folks think the warbloggers will spin this latest travesty?
My own guess is that they'll smear the messenger as they always do. Like Sy Hersh fathered a two-headed hydra or something.
Anybody think that Sy Hersh had info that Newsweek/PentaPost had stories coming down the pike and decided to one-up them by getting his story out there first? Not a bad thing, mind you. Up those stakes, Sy. A good investigative journalism match would be a breath of fresh air. Maybe weed out the whores from the real journos, and good for Sy for lighting the fire.
Sy Hersh is a national treasure.
There is absolutely nothing to this story. I believe the White House and DoD more than Sy the America Hater. We should stop harassing our leaders and let them protect us. Otherwise, we give aid and comfort to our enemies.
FUCKERS! CRIMINALS!
i'm seriously pissed, these assholes are ruinning my country. can people seriously be so blind to reelect these fuckers? can the propogandists care so little for their country that they will continue to cover for these megalomaniacs?
how is it possible?
"By 2004, the United States was running a covert charter airline moving CIA prisoners from one secret facility to another, sources say."
Why does the name "Aristide" come to mind when I read this?
miguel - "can people seriously be so blind to reelect these fuckers? "
No.
And LiberalBias - I'm getting really tired of parody trolls.
Jon H - I don't know why Aristide comes to mind exactly. Care to elaborate? Do you think he's in a CIA jail in Africa?
them mind altering drugs that you are taking sure are working there lba. what are they? mushrooms? peyote buds? or just plain old lsd25?
you can tell me! i know that you ain't one of those oxycontin junkies like rush!
I think that this is an orchestrated fall out of news calculated to do the most damage to Bush and his neocons.
The JAGS knew about this in early 2002! Not last week. That was BEFORE we invaded Iraq!. In April 2003, the new interrogation orders were approved.
Lindsay Graham, was a JAG. He spoke so forthrightly this morning about the chain of command and that he didn't believe that these low level soldiers did this on their own. He also took a shot at Rush and the Faux news whores when he said quite forcefully that this was NOT LIKE FRAT HAZING. That this was quite serious torture that resulted in at least one death. His statements alone were enough to convince me that this is going to blow up much bigger than anyone thinks.
I was quite cynical when the Plame affair died away, and when Richard Clark gave his testimony, but much has changed since then.
It feels like the wheels are falling off the cart one by one and it will result in not only the election of Kerry, but the Bush administration will be seen as a disgrace and stain on our nation for all time.
There is no turning back.
""By 2004, the United States was running a covert charter airline moving CIA prisoners from one secret facility to another, sources say."
Jon H
Jon, you might want to think Air America when you hear this. CIA had lots of practice.
Cambone is going down - he's been well and truly outed, he has no protection. We all wondered why he was on the Taguda panel - the only way he would have appeared is if his great buddy Rumsfeld ordered him to. He's the offering.
Ah, I remember how it was with Iran-Contra - all those nice honorable young men, out to do their best for this country. This has all the elements of - wait for it - Negroponte, Elliot Abrams, North, Poindexter, CIA, illegal war, money, contractors.... It's not as tho anyone paying attention didn't pick up most of the clues; we did, you did, I did. This is just where it all coalesces.
I just didn't imagine that when PNAC was talking about creating an empire that the imperial model they were planning to use was Ottoman....
This is beautiful. I've been waiting for the press to pick up on the real story here--about how Rumsfeld and other officials in the Department of Defense and elsewhere specifically set up the conditions that led to this abuse, and set it up knowing that it would lead to abuse (though they might not have realized it would be this extensive.) The point is, though, that this administration has completely disregarded the Geneva Conventions and is responsible for everything that happened in Abu Ghraib. The press needs to hound on this and the American people need to know the full truth about what happened. It looks like we're starting to get that.
- Joel
----
Nightmares For Sale - You're Damn Right I'm Angry!
i have a rabid far right friend who is joining the navy as an arabic translator. he leaves in one month. I told him I thought gw and rummy were directly responsible for the tortures, and he responded that I was full of sh*t. I am printing this out as I write this, so i can try to prove him wrong.
however, I am noticing that bush supporters are so invested in him, especially with all his recent f*ckups, that you can't have a civil discussion about their crimes, nor can you convince them of ANYTHING. they refuse to listen! It's like arguing with my 2 year old son!
When you think about the covert nature of this whole thing -- the way our leaders have condoned the torture of people in secret against Geneva Conventions, it makes me shutter to think about the Patriot Act here at home and how secretive our govenment has acted toward us. To me, this whole mess just proves these losers can, and will if allowed, treat private American citizens just as poorly.
SHut up! BUSH and RUMMY are good people, unlike you liberals.
"Any instructions authorized in Iraq were checked by lawyers, and deemed to be consistent with the Geneva convention," Rumsfeld told Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., at the hearing.
SFGate 13/5/04
Deem
To accept a document or an event as conclusive of a certain status in the absence of evidence or facts which would normally be required to prove that status.
Duhaime's Law Dictionary
Mr. Q-- you're right. There is some danger and uncertainty in the modern world that has many people desperately clinging to any shart of normality they can find. Combined with the Cult of Personality promulgated from several different areas and it's all about Bush. Instead of loyalty to the Constitution or to the principles of our Founders, or even to the troops, it has become about loyalty to Bush, and they cling to this wretched life raft long after everyone else has fled. They put their fingers in their ears and loudly chant NYA-NYA-NYA. And they blame it on Clinton, whatever "it" is. And they alibi the Stupid Little Man and the rest of his Thugocracy because if the once let go, vast abysses open up and the world is off its hinges entirely.
Thus, they cannot and will not debate. And they join in the illusion promulgated by the Big Liars that only THEY can keep us safe. They're not keeping us safe. They scarcely even care about keeping us safe except as the words they use and the claims they make enable the looting to continue a little longer.
They would rather go down in flames with the bastard they know than risk further uncertainty by changing horses in mid apocalypse. Thus, when the RNC cannot run on the Bush record and cannot honestly attack Kerry on His, it creates a straw man and then attacks this fictitious creature and its completely invented positions. As the RNC, the White house, and the rest engage relentlessly in this fiction, the desperate going NYA-NYA-NYA redouble their grip rather than have to deal with the catastrophe at hand.
But murder will out and truth tends to emerge over time because the universe is inclined toward justice. As that happens, today's 42% approvale will sink into the 30s.
This is beautiful. I've been waiting for the press to pick up on the real story here
I agree. For the first time in 3 years, I'm cautiously optimistic that our democracy has been saved.
i am not surprised they took a reserve unit to be prison guards-perfect for a crusade.
and leo caesius, i think george is a horrid combo of stupidity and neocon thought patterns. twice as bad.
and jimmyraybob, an apple a day keeps the viruses away.
This is deeply shocking. Perhaps not surprising, but shocking. I do wonder how much George Bush actually knew.
Here's the paragraph just before the one Atrios excerpts about "rendering" prisoners:
With the legal groundwork laid, Bush began to act. First, he signed a secret order granting new powers to the CIA. According to knowledgeable sources, the president's directive authorized the CIA to set up a series of secret detention facilities outside the United States, and to question those held in them with unprecedented harshness. Washington then negotiated novel "status of forces agreements" with foreign governments for the secret sites. These agreements gave immunity not merely to U.S. government personnel but also to private contractors. (Asked about the directive last week, a senior administration official said, "We cannot comment on purported intelligence activities.")
Forget Rummy. Bush not only knew, he authorized it himself.
I sent that quote to my email list and asked them to contact their representatives. This is impeachable. There are enough old-time conservatives and Republicans who realize that Bush has become political poison that we could get hearings going. Even if they don't reach any conclusions by November, just starting them will wake up a lot of the less politically aware among us.
CNN was on tv screaming 'DENIAL! DENIAL!' - from The White House, but of course, there was no denial of any kind from the off-white house. It was 'conjecture' and 'misreps', etc. Zero denials, of any kind. It depends on your definition of 'is'...
Characters Remaining:
Commenting by HaloScan
