I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
wow.
It's not just rhetorical excess. He really is a fascist!
fuck!
So, how does a fascist get confirmed to the SCOTUS? Does the Senate go to sleep during the hearings or something?
Likewise, why did Negroponte get appointed Ambassador to Iraq with 85 votes in the Senate? Something ain't right there.
I knew he'd never catch me /Sound of jet engines straining at liftoff.
That assessment is probably on the mark. Also, it is refreshing to see the term "fascist" used in an appropriately descriptive manner rather than as hyperbolic expression.
And he agrees that torture can be justified. Especially if you're Jewish and you want to torture Palestinians. Because after all they're not really human.
It's the "We are Americans! we don't do anything wrong, so why pay attention?" phenomenon.
El Ducke, El Ducke, El Ducke!!
Apples not falling far from the tree and whatnot...no wonder he's a Bush supporter. Bush reminds him of dear old Dad (or ay least Cheney does). Bush is more like a Cocker Spanial that pisses on itself when confronted.
How far we've fallen.
Well, that's ... psychotic.
It's amusing that these small-government conservatives and the fascists are so often on the same page.
A.
Wow! I would venture to say Cheney falls into that category as well. Bush? I would venture to say him too, because I've never thought he was a christian, he just uses it for political purposes. I am stunned to actually see what you believe reaffirmed in print.
Just lovely.
If Bush gets another four years, we will have a fascist as Chief Justice of the SCOTUS.
I hate Dershowitz. But it's nice to see him dishing the dirt on Scalia.
On the other hand...well, it's nice to know that fascists are only bad when they're racist or bigoted. When they're statists, they're merely "interesting."
Plus, I'll bet a Franklin that Scalia is both a racist specifically, and a bigot generally.
Totally OT, but:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.
Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.
I really, deeply hope that this report turns out to be false, because it's been more than a year since we invaded, and the carnage would have been barely excusable in the heat of battle, but it's way passed the anniversary of 'Accomplished Mission Day'this shit's gotta stop. How many soccer fields, how many sewer systems, or how many feet of new electrical cable does it take to wipe clean the memory of this kind of injury?
I used to worry about the expense to America of the Iraq war in lives, money, and reputation, without even considering the cost to Iraq. Then I began to wonder whether we might be doing much lasting good there, at all. Now, I'm down to believing that the very honor of the United States is at stake, and wondering whether we're not making a bad situation, for which both Saddam, the Iraqis, and we are variably culpable, and making it horribly worse. I'm starting to wonder whether the next generation of Americans are going to have to routinely apologize for our actions, taken before they were born. A German commentator, after the Second World War, bemoaned the fact that it would be a thousand years before Germany's name might be mentioned without conjuring up that nation's enormities.
God, I never thought that I'd have that worry for the United States. We're not there yet, but I've started to think we're on the way.
click on the homepage link for an article about the kind of democracy we are bringing to Iraq on a daily basis...
"Something ain't right there.
Wayne Rossi"
The Senators stay well clear on certain votes...by mutual agreement the majority hide away and let a minority make the vote. Senators not present don't count and if it blows up later they can always claim they didn't vote for it. It's kinda like a political sin of ommission.
Well, NOW it all starts to make sense. This helps explain many of his court opinions, especially the one that put that damned stupid smirking chimp in the white house.
Thanks for helping clear THAT one up...
So is anyone taking Derhowitz to task for his 2002 articles promoting torture as ethical?
Totally OT, but:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.
Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.
I really, deeply hope that this report turns out to be false, because it's been more than a year since we invaded, and the carnage would have been barely excusable in the heat of battle, but it's way passed the anniversary of 'Accomplished Mission Day'this shit's gotta stop. How many soccer fields, how many sewer systems, or how many feet of new electrical cable does it take to wipe clean the memory of this kind of injury?
I used to worry about the expense to America of the Iraq war in lives, money, and reputation, without even considering the cost to Iraq. Then I began to wonder whether we might be doing much lasting good there, at all. Now, I'm down to believing that the very honor of the United States is at stake, and wondering whether we're not making a bad situation, for which both Saddam, the Iraqis, and we are variably culpable, and making it horribly worse. I'm starting to wonder whether the next generation of Americans are going to have to routinely apologize for our actions, taken before they were born. A German commentator, after the Second World War, bemoaned the fact that it would be a thousand years before Germany's name might be mentioned without conjuring up that nation's enormities.
God, I never thought that I'd have that worry for the United States. We're not there yet, but I've started to think we're on the way.
It appears the father's political views are being attributed to the son. Of course it follows, then, that Arnold is a Nazi, and Bush is Nazi-sympathizer.
"Scalia is both a racist specifically, and a bigot generally.
Philalethes"
And we know for a fact he hates waterfowl.
While I can't stand Scalia, and am perfectly willing to be convinced that all of this is true, I am suspicious...
1) of arguments that visit the sins of the father on the son, and
2) of anything written by Dersh, who supports "torture warrants" and has written an incredibly dishonest defense of Israel's war crimes (as Amnesty International labelled them yesterday).
"Of course it follows, then, that Arnold is a Nazi, and Bush is Nazi-sympathizer."
Since there's no evidence to the contrary...Yes!
i didn't take it as a sins-of-the-father thing, just explaining his background and education.
Fear not Woot...We'll try to keep Scalia away from your Boobies.
He's not an anti-Semite - there's no bigotry or racism in him at all.
-Dershowitz
Scalia is smart enough to know that blatant racism or anti-semitism would have been an insurmountable obstacle to his confirmation.
Wayne Rossi: the Senate was entirely distracted by the debate over elevating Rehnquist to Chief Justice (after killing Bork's nomination). Not much political capital was spent on vetting or opposing Scalia.
Antonin, just a tip...
Stay out of Milan.
Sorry for the grammar and the open tag.
I don't read Dersh's opinion as casting Scalia pere's sins down a generation. He's quite clear that he believes that Antonin was raised as a statist.
Unfortunately, I'm forced to say once again: why am I not surprised?
Any fucking Nader voters even thinking of voting for King Ralph this year, just repeat after me: Chief Justice Antonin Scalia, Chief Justice Antonin Scalia...
This is so hilarious. Nothing gets yalls' dander up like fascism. And from the mouth of Dershowitz! HA! You guys are nothing but a bunch of little Joe McCarthys, (the worst person in the history of humanity let's remember), going after fascists instead of commies. I wonder if there had been a Supreme who'd gone to a school for junior comrades, if that would even merit a comment here at all?
Haha.. I can't stop laughing...
[1] Steal the election through wholesale fraud against the democratic system.
You're already on record as saying that this is just dandy by you, because, er, fuck the Constitution, you're right-wingers, dammit. Or something;
Barry, nice post.
Stealing the election is probably the most likely event. Diebold is already planted in many states, and where that doesn't work, thugs at the polls in certain areas (e.g. Palm Beach) work wonders as well.
At this point, I'm assuming this election will be stolen. For example, even though Kevin Shelley of Calif. banned e-voting, Repub controlled counties are defying his order. Of course, with Gropernator in the Governers office, this approach is being tolerated by Der Furher II.
Man's Shrinking Brain Puzzles Doctors
Aides say he is still fit to serve as preznit.
Scalia is smart enough to know that blatant racism or anti-semitism would have been an insurmountable obstacle to his confirmation.
Without in any way defending Scalia (which believe me is the last thing I'd want to do), let's not sink to this kind of logic.
Presumably Scalia also knows that a penchant for sex with goats would sink his nomination, does that make him a Kausian goat diddler?
Speaking of Mussolini- Italy wants out of Iraq. 61% now want out. It was 52% one week ago.....
He's a man who is well in the tradition of Franco and Mussolini. Not Hitler. He's not an anti-Semite - there's no bigotry or racism in him at all. But he is somebody who has these views which would have been very comfortable in fascist Italy or fascist Spain.
The Bush administration is model of Il Duce's fascist ideal of government in the service of corporations and vice versa.
So next time some Gooper gets in your face for comparisons of Bush to Hitler, agree that that the comparison isn't as accurate as one to Il Duce.
1) of arguments that visit the sins of the father on the son, and
It didn't strike me as that sort of analysis. It's simply some information about how he was raised... as a fascist.
Dershowitz lost a great deal of my respect when he came out in favor of leagalized torture.
The only form of torture that even comes close to being ethical is torture on torturers themselves, in an effort to create in them the sense of empathy that would cause them to cringe the next time they contemplated it.
However, there is no doubt in my mind that Fat Tony is a fascist, in the Mussolini/Franco sense, and therefore has no business on the bench or being a member of the bar, for that matter.
This is so hilarious. Nothing gets yalls' dander up like fasc--
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Speaking of Mussolini- Italy wants out of Iraq. 61% now want out. It was 52% one week ago.....
Which makes me wonder; Spain, South Korean, Honduras, El Salvador, India...
Is there any Pro-Bush government that has won an election this year?
OT, but about Dershowitz:
Linda McQuaig, a sharp, leftie columnist in the Toronto Star, recently wrote a column about how the "torture if necessary" atmosphere in the US, including Dersh's plan for 'torture warrants', helped contribute to the abuses in Iraq (and Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay).
Dershowitz wrote a letter to the editor saying Linda M had it dead wrong: his warrants would have prevented the prison abuse. The logic is: torture is heinous, so an admisinistration would be loath to ask for permission to employ it. What he fails to note is that this administration has no shame, and that they would have been granted the warrants after 9/11 no problem. International precedent set. Bingo - end of Geneva Convention!
If people can compare these rapes murders, and abuses to hazing, bad performance art, porn, and gay marriage, exactly where does Dershowitz think the outrage would come from?
So next time some Gooper gets in your face for comparisons of Bush to Hitler, agree that that the comparison isn't as accurate as one to Il Duce.
No, its "Il Ducke" quack quack
I wonder if there had been a Supreme who'd gone to a school for junior comrades, if that would even merit a comment here at all?
The point, of course, is that you have failed to produce an example of such a thing happening.
We deal with facts and reality here. Unlike the Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world, we do not sit around all day imagining every possible scenario in order to gauge our potential outrage on it.
Dershowitz wrote a letter to the editor saying Linda M had it dead wrong: his warrants would have prevented the prison abuse. The logic is: torture is heinous, so an admisinistration would be loath to ask for permission to employ it.
Or Dershowitz could have come out, you know, against torture in the first place instead of trying to spin his own regretful, stupid statements around with legalese.
So, how does a fascist get confirmed to the SCOTUS? Does the Senate go to sleep during the hearings or something?
Fascist ties to the Republican party run deep and run all the way back to Hitler.
For example, during WWII, the Saudi Royal family were often visiting Hitler at his mountain retreat, and were allies with the Nazi's. These same Saudi's were also tied to Texas oil conglomerates who were intentionally depriving US troops of oil supplies.
That was in the 1940's.
Fast forward to 2004: Texas Oil + Saudi's in the White House + Fascists on SCOTUS. It really isn't a surprise.
Note: read Trading with the Enemy by Charles Higham which details the Texas Oil-Nazi-Saudi partnership.
The book can be had from Amazon.
In the United States, Opus Dei is still relatively tiny,
with only 3,000 members. But for a group that could barely fill a
high school auditorium, it has considerable cultural clout. Some
of the country's best-known conservatives have been pegged as Opus
Dei sympathizers or friends: Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas,
Robert Bork, Republican senators Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback,
former Information Awarenesss Office director John M. Poindexter
and TV pundits Lawrence Kudlow and Robert Novak.
CRAIG OFFMAN (from GQ Magazine, December, 2003)
What is Opus Dei
It didn't strike me as that sort of analysis. It's simply some information about how he was raised... as a fascist.
Much of the argument concerns Scalia's father. The one bit that doesn't is the sentence on the school Scalia attended. Now it's entirely possible that this school taught Scalia to be a fascist. On the other hand, for two decades Italians were schooled in Fascism, and for a dozen years Germans were schooled in Nazism, and those countries made remarkable transitions to democracy.
I'm more concerned about Scalia's adult beliefs and votes on the court than about his background. In fact, a number of the neo-cons were red diaper babies (i.e. raised on the left)...and it doesn't appear to have done them much good. One's upbringing is important, but few of us end up simply replicating the beliefs that our parents -- or our schools -- tried to instill in us.
Once again, I'm not dismissing the argument entirely. I just wish it was coming from a less dishonest source.
Is anyone really surprised?
While I'm not a Dershowitz-basher, and definitely not a Scalia fan, this seems a little far-fetched. According to Scalia's biography, his father started at Brooklyn college in 1941 (I'm not sure how many Italian-Americans remained connected to Fascist organizations in 1941). Dershowitz graduated from Brooklyn College in 1959, and I would guess that there would be even fewer Fascists around by then.
As for Casa Italiano at Columbia University, I know nothing about that. I do know that Enrico Fermi joined the faculty at Columbia in 1939 (after fleeing Fascist Italy). If Casa Italiano or Columbia was a place where anyone had to swear an oath to Mussolini, that would be a strange place for Fermi to wind up.
So, is there any other source for this?
The Bush administration is model of Il Duce's fascist ideal of government in the service of corporations and vice versa.
Hitler gets more press, but Mussolini was the pioneer of all things fascist. Italy under Mussolini was not, by any means, a free society, and every bit as brutal as Hitler's.
Make no mistake, there is little difference in fascist regimes- they are all destructive.
Wasn't Scalia implicated (as a youth) in some poll monitoring where he was targeting Blacks and questioning the validity of their voter registration?
or was that Rhenquist? These Republican appointees never dissappoint, do they?
Scalia used to work at the American Enterprise Institute, as well. Imagine that.
link in Homepage
To a certain degree one's values originate with one's parents...Scalia may not be a fascists but he was probably raised as one. There's no way those views couldn't have been indoctrinated into him in some degree.
"He's not an anti-Semite - there's no bigotry or racism in him at all. "
Oh I am just SO relieved to hear that.
It means that there's only One reasosn why he wants me dead.
One should also distinguish -- as, for example, Kevin Phillips does -- a willingness to do business with Nazis and Fascists, and political sympathy for Nazis and Fascists. Both are bad, but they're not the same thing. The Bush family certainly did business with Nazi Germany. But they weren't Henry Ford, who actively promoted antisemitism in ths U.S.
Scalia is smart enough to know that blatant racism or anti-semitism would have been an insurmountable obstacle to his confirmation.
Without in any way defending Scalia (which believe me is the last thing I'd want to do), let's not sink to this kind of logic.
Presumably Scalia also knows that a penchant for sex with goats would sink his nomination, does that make him a Kausian goat diddler?
BenA | Email | Homepage | 05.19.04 - 3:08 pm | #
Okay, the guys a pussycat about race and ethnicity but just happens to be a scumbag fascist in all his legal opinions.
This is so hilarious. Nothing gets yalls' dander up like fascism.
I'll drink to that!
Sheesh...what a bunch of Negative Nellies we are!
Upset about fascism. Jeez, is nothing sacred around here?
The Senators stay well clear on certain votes...by mutual agreement the majority hide away and let a minority make the vote. Senators not present don't count and if it blows up later they can always claim they didn't vote for it. It's kinda like a political sin of ommission.
The vote for Negroponte was 95-3. No sins of omission there. And when he sets up death squads in Iraq, none of those 93 can say "How could we have known?"
BenA:
The Bush family certainly did business with Nazi Germany. But they weren't Henry Ford, who actively promoted antisemitism in ths U.S.
I disagree. The Bush family--like other Republican clans--has a history of interest in the early eugenics movement, and involvement with the Pioneer Fund and related "thinkers."
Okay, the guys a pussycat about race and ethnicity but just happens to be a scumbag fascist in all his legal opinions.
Without defending Dershowitz (or necessarily agree with him re: Scalia and race), I do think it's important to draw distinctions like this. Different bad people (and bad regimes) have different faults.
And I'm afraid I have to disagree with Rontrelle Washington: as bad as Fascist Italy was, Nazi Germany was profoundly worse. Until Hitler forced the Italian regime to adopt antisemitic laws in the late 1930s, Mussolini's regime had none of the genocidal tendencies of Hitler's.
The Bush family certainly did business with Nazi Germany. But they weren't Henry Ford, who actively promoted antisemitism in ths U.S.
Maybe. But both were involved in doing business with Nazi Germany during WWII, which should have rendered them all as traitors. So whether it is overt support or covert support, it is support nonetheless.
Homer The Troll,
So...I take it you're pro-facist, then?
'The vote for Negroponte was 95-3. No sins of omission there. And when he sets up death squads in Iraq, none of those 93 can say "How could we have known?"'
--Tell me again how the Democrats are our saviors . . . .
--It seems to me that when it comes to foreign policy, the elite, BI-PARTISAN consensus seems to be "imperialsim, no matter what the price." And Senate Dems are on this same page as well as the Republicans are.
Mussolini's regime had none of the genocidal tendencies of Hitler's.
Mussolini, Franco, and Hitler were are murderers.
So raping and pillaging of other soveriegn nations does not count as genocide? Politcal murder? So 1000 deaths of innocents are bad, but one is okay?
Are we committing genocide now in Iraq?
Fascist regimes deserve absolutely zero amounts of sympathy.
I disagree. The Bush family--like other Republican clans--has a history of interest in the early eugenics movement, and involvement with the Pioneer Fund and related "thinkers."
Philalethes
And the European fascists modeled their tactics after the US Eugenics movement.
"So is anyone taking Derhowitz to task for his 2002 articles promoting torture as ethical?"
I took him to task, but he found his way back.
"Senate Dems are on this same page as well as the Republicans are."
Unfortunately so...that tide seems to be turning now as more Americans call "Bullshit" on the War in Iraq. They're politicians and it's shitty but they are in a popularity contest. Dem's in Congress have not been (with notable exceptions) the bravest creatures on the continent of late.
I went to law school at University of Idaho for three semesters before I resigned.
When I was a 1L, Justice Scalia came a-calling. He addressed the student body and invited guests at an evening lecture where he explained his approach to constitutional law. I thought he was an arrogant son-ofa-bitch.
The following day he lectured and entertained questions from law students and faculty in the law school's mock courtroom.
After he explained his views on state's rights issues, a 3L asked him how he would have voted if he had been a justice hearing Plessy v. Fergusson.
Scalia paused and said, "That's a good question. I don't know."
'Nuff said about Justice Scalia.
Dershowitz-on-Scalia. Is that like man-on-dog?
"And the European fascists modeled their tactics after the US Eugenics movement.
Rontrelle Washington"
I'm not an expert, but a movement is significantly different than public policy.
I disagree. The Bush family--like other Republican clans--has a history of interest in the early eugenics movement, and involvement with the Pioneer Fund and related "thinkers."
Fine. But eugenics -- as bad as it was -- is not, in and of itself, Nazism. The eugenics movement was huge, and included a lot of folks on the left and in the center.
Again, the right uses this kind of logic, too, to attack people who embrace aspects (or purported aspects) of Nazism that they find offensive: e.g. abortion, environmentalism, even bans on public smoking.
There were, and are, actual Nazi sympathizers. Let's not waste the label on folks who weren't and aren't.
And when he sets up death squads in Iraq, none of those 93 can say "How could we have known?"
Want to bet? That's what is being said today at the Abu Gharaib (sp?) hearings.
Even in his youth, Scalia was regarded as an extreme conservative - even at his extremely conservative school.
But both were involved in doing business with Nazi Germany during WWII, which should have rendered them all as traitors.
According to Kevin Phillips -- who's hardly pro-Bush -- when the U.S. entered the War, Bush's firm immediately went to the U.S. government, revealed their German assets, and asked for guidance on what to do.
Again, I only know what Kevin Phillips says about this. But given his (justified) hatred of the Bushes, I think he's a pretty trustworthy source if he finds them not guilty of a particular offense.
On the other hand, for two decades Italians were schooled in Fascism, and for a dozen years Germans were schooled in Nazism, and those countries made remarkable transitions to democracy.
...after they were bombed, invaded, conquered, and shoved into democracy. Fortunately for Germany it seems to have stuck this time. Italy's dose is apparently wearing off, what with their media-mogul Prime Minister and his rampant corruption.
I'm more concerned about Scalia's adult beliefs and votes on the court than about his background.
His adult beliefs and votes on the court, by and large, confirm exactly what his background implies. We've been calling Scalia exactly what he is for a long time, because of the way he acts in his capacity as a member of the Supreme Court. I doubt many of us had heard, before today, that he was raised to be like that.
- Hmmmmm - Dershowitz - who himself believes that torture is justified in certain situations as long as there is oversight and rules and regs to cover it....we want our torture "by-the-book"....
Mussolini's regime had none of the genocidal tendencies of Hitler's.
The Ethiopians (especially those whot survived Mussolini's murderous occupation) would be surprised to hear this.
I'm not an expert, but a movement is significantly different than public policy.
True, but the point is that there was a direct linkage between the folks in the US who were pushing Eugenics and the European fascists who adopted it as public policy.
It's a free country, leave the guy alone. I'm outraged at any flicker of outrage at this. It was a long time ago.
Pre-outraged, call it.
when the U.S. entered the War, Bush's firm immediately went to the U.S. government, revealed their German assets, and asked for guidance on what to do.
Ben, if you can find a copy of Trading with the Enemy, it goes into the Texas Oil-Saudi-Nazi Germany business dealings.
I don't need Dershowitz to tell me Scalia's a fascist.
If you know anything about the origins of Opus Dei and include Scalia with that bunch, then take his views on the "...tendency of democracy to obscure the divine authority behind government...:" It should scare the pants off of anyone who claims to care about the health of our republic.
He needs to be removed from office.
Mussolini's regime had none of the genocidal tendencies of Hitler's.
The Ethiopians (especially those whot survived Mussolini's murderous occupation) would be surprised to hear this.
Point very well taken. The point I was trying to make was that life for Jews and gays and lesbians (to take but two examples) was infinitely better in, say, 1935, in Fascist Italy than in Nazi Germany. These regimes were not morally equivalent, even if they were both very bad.
Hey, W, quit bogarting the torture pics... I'm getting a little horny here!
Feakin' falangist fucktard.
El Ducke, El Ducke, El Ducke!!
attaturk
Thought I'd copy and paste this from upthread in case it flew over your head the first time. Ba-dump-bump. Thank you. I'll be here all week.
There were, and are, actual Nazi sympathizers. Let's not waste the label on folks who weren't and aren't.
BenA
Re eugenics, obviously my point was that the Bushes were on the Hitlerian side of the eugenics question. What lefty eugenicists believed isn't germane in that regard.
And you didn't address the Pioneer fund link, which is a very serious one.
"In the United States, Opus Dei is still relatively tiny,
with only 3,000 members. But for a group that could barely fill a
high school auditorium, it has considerable cultural clout. Some
of the country's best-known conservatives have been pegged as Opus
Dei sympathizers or friends: Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas,
Robert Bork, Republican senators Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback,
former Information Awarenesss Office director John M. Poindexter
and TV pundits Lawrence Kudlow and Robert Novak...."
"There are different classes of membership in Opus Dei:
Numerary members pledge to remain celibate and generally live in Opus Dei houses. They commit their entire salaries to Opus Dei, submit incoming and outgoing mail to their directors, and practice various forms of corporal mortification, including use of the cilice, a spiked chain worn around the thigh, and use of the discipline, a knotted rope for whipping."
Now it all makes sense.
So raping and pillaging of other soveriegn nations does not count as genocide? Politcal murder? So 1000 deaths of innocents are bad, but one is okay?
Are we committing genocide now in Iraq?
No to all of those questions, Rontrelle. Genocide is genocide, not something else.
I guess that explains a lot. You know, people think communism and socialism are the worst things in the world, but where the hell is the concern about all the fascism floating around these days? That's way scarier to me.
And you didn't address the Pioneer fund link, which is a very serious one.
I'll admit to not knowing the particulars of the Bush connection to the pioneer fund.
I do know that the Pioneer Fund was a racist organization, devoted to eugenics founded in 1937. And it's activities were, at the time, supported by, among others, future Supreme Court Justice John Marshall Harlan II, and FDR's Secretary of War, Harry Woodring.
Again, being a racist and a fan of eugenics does not (and did not) necessarily make you a Nazi or a Nazi-sympathizer.
Hey, Herman, I see here in this text book on U.S. History that the Americans put Indians on train cars to ship them out to reservations. Hmmm...
This hysteria over the Negroponte vote continues to exasperate me.
1) If the Democrats opposed him, it would give the GOP a chance to whine "See? they're trying to keep us from bringing democracy to Iraq!" Why give them ammunition?
2) The Democrats don't have the votes to stop the appointment anyway. It wouldn't make a difference if they voted yea, nay, or stayed home to watch American Idol.
3) Negroponte is a bloodthirsty lunatic. If your Party's goal is to make the opposition look bad, who would YOU prefer implementing the administration's policies? (Maybe they should have filibustered so Michael Savage could get the post...)
But some of you ("My baloney has a last name, it's N-A-D-E-R") start screaming "SEE! No difference betweeen the D's and the R's!"
I think you may be as poitically illiterate as your candidate.
Hey, Gen. Myers, pass the photos of today's "Sharoning". He sure did a good one, today, didn't he! Hey, here is good one... look here, this poor kid got his intestines all blowed up! That one is a keeper!
"I'm starting to wonder whether the next generation of Americans are going to have to routinely apologize for our actions,..."
I'm leaving on a flight today to Paris so I can deliver my apologies directly to my French friends in person.
"Je suis desoles mon President soit un Idiot."
BenA; You're hammering a point that I understand perfectly, while using ignorance to avoiding conceding the point I'm trying to make.
Wickliffe Draper. The Draper Family. Prescott Bush. Fritz Thyssen.
Google 'em.
Bonus tidbit...Harry Laughlin's predescessor organization to the Pioneer Fund was the Eugenics Office at Cold Spring Harbor, funded in part by the Harriman family, who were involved with Prescott Bush's Nazi banking scandal.
speaking of Nadir, any word on his meeting today w/Kerry? Or has it yet to take place?
"..But he is somebody who has these views which would have been very comfortable in fascist Italy or fascist Spain..."
Well Duh1
You mean you finally opened your eyes to this fact?
Funny how you seem to know what fascism is about enough to compare an italian american to their mussolini past, yet are unable to connect WASPs here in America to their Aryan Hitler past?
Where's the talk about Prescott Bush?
We know it's a matter of public knowledge but at the moment nobody in the public seems to want to acknowledge it.
Neiwert talked about it often over on Orcinus, but very few outside of Neiwert have been able to muster the courage, let alone members of the mainstream media with wider public exposure.
I wonder how many people who voted for Bush know his grandfather supported the nazis?
I wonder how many americans know the wide range of fascist connections the higher ranking members of our Republican party have?
I wonder how many Americans know that every company George W. Bush ever ran he also ran into the ground?
I wonder how many people know the rumors that the only reason George H.W. Bush joined the navy and fought in WW2 was to offset the accusation's of his father's nazi connections and try to divert questions of his own patriotism?
Did anyone ask at the time whether George Bush senior, when he joined the navy, fought in Europe against the Aryan nazis or just in the pacific against slanty-eyes little yellow bellied japanese? I wonder if there is paperwork out there showing whether Bush requested duty in the pacific as compared to in Europe? Maybe a connection could be made that he didn't want to fight and kill the sons of people whom his own father was probably buddies with?
As far fetched as some of these questions are, is there any wonder whether these people haven't taken things to the absurd level they seem to be so that the only way one can rationally put things together is to side with the paranoid conspiracy nuts?
This whole thing is becoming too ironic.
MYOB'
.
I posted a comment above about a couple of reasons to take Dershowitz's comments with a grain of salt (again, I'm neither a Scalia fan nor a Dershowitz-basher). Just one more thought on that. He describes the high school Scalia attended, Xavier High in Manhattan, as "a kind of military school in New York which was a place where any children of fascists were educated". Xavier is a Jesuit school, not simply Italian-oriented, and its military program was a Junior ROTC since the 1930's.
There is a lot to criticize about Scalia. These faux fascist allegations, though, probably are not the way to go about it.
These regimes were not morally equivalent, even if they were both very bad.
Agreed. Italian anti-semitism under Mussolini was only a pale imitation of the virulent form under Hitler. Also, Il Duce was a clownish fool who liked to play military dress-up while dreaming of a Pax Italiana (remind you of anyone?) while Hitler was a true sociopath who turned his deranged dreams of exterminating Jews into reality.
Still, without Mussolini as his enthusiastic partner, it seems unlikely that Hitler would have launched World War II (just as Bush, without Blair, would not have launched his Iraqi adventure).
pbg,
you brought up the issue of challenges confronting minority parties.
There is an interesting article over at The Hill, the gist of which is that the Repubs set a trap against Kerry on the overtime vote where he was AWOL campaigning. The Repubs juiced their votes so that it appeared that if Kerry would have voted, the Dems would have won a victory. In reality, if Kerry were present, some thugs who voted for the measure would have voted against it. Clever f@@kers.
Unfortunately, I can't find the article right now at hillnews.com
dersh may be totally full of it, but I thought the comments deserved a wider airing regardless.
Basharov,
Tony Blair is a disgusting asshole. Brits who think they know how to go about occupying Iraq "the proper way" are deranged psychopaths. I hate those smug bastards.
Yep. The Big Ragu in the Brown Shirt.
for those who think racism would be a deterrent to serving on the supreme court or even being chief justice, check this link:
http://tinyurl.com/28s6h
or just do a google search for "rehnquist disenfranchise black"
or "rehnquist arizona polls" or "rehnquist brown board education" etc.
Speaking of fascists:
Listened to Rush during lunch (I have to stop doing that) and I couldn't believe my ears. Luckily I had a friend with me who heard what he said too so I wasn't imagining it.
He had some real loony woman on that was going on and on about how we should just "kill 'em all," and "take out Fallujah," and that Iraqis are "just animals, not human," etc. Rush responded, "You are absolutely right, human debris." In a very sneering tone of course.
My friend responded after we looked at each other in disbelief, "he's high as a kite today."
2) The Democrats don't have the votes to stop the appointment anyway. It wouldn't make a difference if they voted yea, nay, or stayed home to watch American Idol.
Then what possessed almost all of them to vote "yes"? Here was a place to take a principled stand against an egregiously bad appointee and, as usual, they failed the test.
And he agrees that torture can be justified. Especially if you're Jewish and you want to torture Palestinians. Because after all they're not really human.
Ducshawitz
While your statement is incendiary enough, you should be clear that there is a distinction between Israelis specifically and Jews in general. There are also many Israelis who find Sharon's policies aboninable, for example this group.
This is exactly the slippery slope and sloppy thinking that, as a Jew, I am very concerned about.
Steve in CO:
http://tinyurl.com/292np
My blog entry on the doublethink in the neoconservative movement. It's along those very lines.
I find it interesting that D desribes S as "statist." I have frequently heard the Clintons described as "statist" by FR/CHA types because of Hilary Health or because they were not dismantling the New Deal and Great Society fast enough or Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Oklahoma City. Scalia of course is not a statist despite his writings and rulings for the narrowest interpretation of the Bill of Rights. Is "statist" good as long as one is a church-and-statist or a privately-owned-statist?
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
...Winston sank his arms to his sides and slowly refilled his lungs with air. His mind slid away into
the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which
cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic,
to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the
Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back
into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above
all, to apply the same process to the process itself. That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce
unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just
performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.
Scalia defending the Constitution? He's the kind of man Winston Smith would recognize.
Basharov: I gave you two good reasons. 1 and 3.
And 'John Negroponte is a bloodthirsty lunatic', while the truth, is not a principle.
I'll add
4) John Negroponte's appointment to Iraq will not make the situation in Iraq worse. That's pretty damn impossible.
"2) The Democrats don't have the votes to stop the appointment anyway. It wouldn't make a difference if they voted yea, nay, or stayed home to watch American Idol.
Then what possessed almost all of them to vote "yes"? Here was a place to take a principled stand against an egregiously bad appointee and, as usual, they failed the test."
The question is-- did Kerry vote on this? If so, up or down?
dre-- what's "FR/CHA"?
free republic... ????
Free Republic/Clinton Hating Asshole
LMAO attaturk
scalia and george, 2 ducks of a feather.
Perhaps he would have been less suited to Mussolini's Fascists, but Scalia in the Falange? Yeah, I can see that. Definitely one of Franco's little helpers.
aux duce pits, citoyens!
by the way, the high school Scalia went to in NYC is Xavier, which is a catholic school where they have some compulsory bs military stuff in your freshman year.
This TOTALLY explains Scalia. I have friends who went here and its Brooklyn counterpart, Xavierian and they all have very similar views. Its all very machismo, chest beating bullshit, and of course they are all-boys schools.
The funny thing is that I went to catholic HS too, except mine was co-ed. There is a major difference in the mindset you come out with.
Any other NY denizens know what Im talking about here?
thanks dre
Dershowitz is a resolute supporter of apartheid Israel, and a proponent of overt torture; one imagines he greatly admires Scalia's fascist past.
I heard Il Ducke give a speech on NPR about a year ago regarding the death penalty. His basic premise was that Murrica is more Christian, while Yurp is secular, and this is reflected in the use of the death penalty here, which is biblically justified, as compared to the godless heethins across the pond. Muy loco!
Dick Fitzgerald - Dershowitz is very sane on every subject except Israel, and he is totally insane on that subject, I agree. Totally.
Have to agree with Tena. Dersch has been such a sane, devious, plotting, lying deceiving con artist on Israel for so long, and that's been our main focus on him, we completely forgot for example the introduction he wrote to John Stuart Mill's Liberty and Utilitarianism. We'd still rather have a source who doesn't lie for a living, but it is certainly true that fascism enjoyed enormous support under various guises, and that the Italian community here had staunch pro and con camps. Consider it not yet actionable until we get more, but certainly as a worst possible scenario keep Scatlia's already evidenced fascism (this is a guy who doesn't believe in human fucking privacy) perpetually in mind.
class-concious annotation to above "Italian community here had stauch pro and con camps"-certainly, you don't need to be told which side the money, as in the money that would go into a school, was on.
kei & yuri - the Majority Report that Atrios is talking about was a perfect showcase for Dersh's particular madness. He was talking very rationally about the Supreme Court and constitutional issues and I was agreeing with him. Then he went off on Israel, and it was hair-raising. I'm not sure why he hasn't emigrated and joined the Israeli defense forces. He is completely fascist on that subject.
I ordered the book that was being discussed last night: "How Israel Lost." I'm supposed to get it tomorrow or Friday and I'm really looking forward to reading it.
Tena-yeah.
The curious novice may repair to some other books too: Finkelstein's introduction to the conflict itself is undoubtedly excellent, although mentioning his name may get your life threatened. Fred Khouri has a still-good textbook from Syracuse U Press called the Arab-Israeli Conflict. "Reasonable" Zionist Walter Lacquer edited a compendium of essays from both sides you might find in a used book shop. Joe Sacco's Palestine is great. Tanya Reinhart (Image/Reality of Israel/Palestine) and Noam Chomsky (Fateful Triangle and Middle East Illusions) have good overviews too. And needless to say, all of them are Holocaust-denying Nazi self-hating Jews who want to bring about another Holocaust.
Also, lots of strange comments upthread.
First of all, fascist eugenics was not based on any piddling "movement", eugenics was actual public policy in America, for First Nations (guh!) and even for poor white trash (see that book by that guy who got IBM pissed at him for connecting Hollerith to the Holocaust, who knows what we're talking about here? War Against the Weak).
Second of all, the defense of Mussolini is dependent on Jewish chauvenism. There is an argument that Hitler was worse than imperial systems for going after assimilated white people "next door", and a reverse of that same argument saying the only thing Hitler did wrong was go after white people, just look at Churchill advocating gas for Afghanistani rebels. There can be no doubt that while Mussolini was not as anti-Semitic (the Italians actually defended their Jews and to a large extent "split" with Hitler over this later), or that their state-corporation was different from the Pharoahnic state-religion of the Germans, they were still fucking bad enough already.
And genocide should be recognized as such when it is attempted or beginning. It is useless and unforgivable to not call something genocide until after a quota has been met.
Atrios,
You and your community always bitch about the Bush adminstration and the wobbly writing of conservatives, yet when Israel is murdering innocent Palestinians, you silence is deafening.
Irish Foreign Minister Brian Cowen, whose country holds the rotating EU presidency, condemned Israel's military operation in Rafah as "reckless disregard for human life."
"It is clear that today's action was completely disproportionate to any threat faced by the Israeli military and that Israeli forces showed a reckless disregard for human life," he said Wednesday.
Disproportionate is usually your reaction to casualties of our American culture and the casualties of the Zionist-Arab conflict.
Low carbed out,
Antisesamite
JESUS CHRIST THIS IDIOT WENT CROSSPOST! Whaddaya wanna bet he can't be bothered with our response to him?
As long as we're recommending books:
William H. Tucker, "The Funding of Scientific Racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund."
Read it, then play "Where's Wickliffe?" at the American Enterprise Institute.
Draper > "Bell Curve" > Bush policy.
Phila, well, books on Israel. never mind...
Yes. Not quite pertinent....?
You'd be surprised. Possibly.
I've seen Finkelstein speak (if you don't like Dershowitz wait till you hear what Norm has to say about him) and certainly he, Chomsky and their ilk and even Reinhart have a valuable voice to add to the debate on the conflict. But the idea that they have the whole picture, much like the right-wing Zionist lobby's rush to dismiss them as self-hating or anti-Semitic, is a little silly. I've never read a book on Israel I totally agree with but I would also point anyone toward Amira Hass, Itamar Rabinovitch, David Grossman, Avi Shlaim, maybe Mark Tessler. Also needless to say reading From Beirut to Jerusalem is like the worst waste of time you could possibly endure.
Putting 'reasonable' zionist in those quotes is a little iffy, Finkelstein himself was pushes the old two-state solution.
so is it:
Fat Fascist Tony or
Fascist Fat Tony?
either way I guess he answers to FFT.
------
no one likes "Scatlia"? Or are you all thinking it's a typo?
- Dershowitz is very sane on every subject except Israel, and he is totally insane on that subject, I agree. Totally.
Tena
That's it. Israel is the issue on which his reasoning gets bent all out of shape. Other than that and a few other related issues he's pretty much all right. Even great sometimes.
He does stretch the truth out of shape sometimes but other times he's scrupulous about it.
Dershowitz sure isn't one of my heros but he's not all bad.
Scalia's fascist background should come as no surprise. His foreground is solidly fascist. And I'm telling you, Bush gets two more appointments we're all in danger of being force fed castor oil by his thugs. You think he wouldn't do it?
dre:
Waco -- happened while Clinton was taking his second deep breath
Ruby Ridge -- happened while GHWB was pres.
Oklahoma City -- happened to, not by, Clinton.
It's so true for so many others, too. William Rivers Pitt of TruthOut said it best, that there is nothing more common in the intellectual landscape than you have two bright people who respect eachother and discuss things nicely and then someone brings up Israel and now they're at eachother's throats.
Nor is this, or the mysterious fifty-year Levantine stalemate itself, intractible coincidence puzzling to earnest scholars. They're doing it on purpose and they know they have nothing to stand on, which is why they always threaten people.
That fifty-year Levantine stalemate was forseen by a lot of people. A short time before her assination I. Ghandi was asked about why India didn't support Israel. She said that anyone could have seen what would happen if it was put in the middle east displacing Palestinians. She said that from the beginning people were afraid that it would cause problems all through out the region.
"A Zionist is someone who thinks YOU should move to Palestine." That YOU was said with such a small emphisis that I didn't get Mr. Hirsh's joke for years. Some people didn't even think he had a sense of humor.
"And the European fascists modeled their tactics after the US Eugenics movement.
Rontrelle Washington"
I'm not an expert, but a movement is significantly different than public policy.
~A~ | Email | Homepage | 05.19.04 - 3:33 pm | #
Wait, wait wait. I'm not going to let
this one by.
The clearest description as to why the American Eugenics movement was an abomination is most clearly stated by the following book;
WAR AGAINST THE WEAK, by Edwin Black
from the Amazon description...
"The eugenics movememt in America started with the thought that humans could improve their lot with selective breeding. Fine & well, but what actually happened is something entirely different
Book Description
The explosive true story of America's century-long attempt to create a master race-by the author of the New York Times bestseller IBM AND THE HOLOCAUST
In WAR AGAINST THE WEAK, award-winning investigative journalist Edwin Black connects the crimes of the Nazis to a pseudoscientific American movement of the early twentieth century called eugenics. Based on selective breeding of human beings, eugenics began in laboratories on Long Island, but it ended in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany. Ultimately, over 60,000 "unfit" Americans were coercively sterilized, a third of them after Nuremberg declared such practices crimes against humanity.
It started in 1904, when a small group of U.S. scientists launched an ambitious new race-based movement that was championed by our nation's social, political, and academic elite. Funded by America's leading corporate philanthropies, such as the Carnegie Institution and the Rockefeller Foundation, and entrenched in classrooms across America, eugenicists sought to eliminate social "undesirables." Their methods: forced sterilization, human breeding programs, marriage prohibition, and even passive euthanasia. Perhaps more shocking-eugenics was sanctioned by the Supreme Court. Cruel and racist laws were enacted in twenty-seven U.S. states, and the supporters of eugenics included such progressive thinkers as Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger, and Oliver Wendell Holmes.
The victims of eugenics were poor white people from New England to California, immigrants from across Europe, Blacks, Jews, Mexicans, Native Americans, epileptics, alcoholics, petty criminals, the mentally ill and anyone else who did not resemble the blond and blue-eyed Nordic ideal the eugenics movement glorified. Through international academic exchanges, American eugenicists exported the movement worldwide. It eventually caught the fascination of Adolf Hitler.
To write WAR AGAINST THE WEAK, Edwin Black led a team of fifty researchers in dozens of archives in four countries, generating some 50,000 documents. In this rigorous, comprehensive, brilliantly told story that spans a century, readers will discover the chilling truth of how the scientific rationales that drove Nazi doctors were first concocted by "scientists"
Book recommendation again: The Mismeasure of Man, by Stephen Jay Gould. It goes from the madness of craniometry to the madness of IQ testing, the politics, psychology, and science of it all.
It's appalling--a brilliant book--and if you have faith in Science, it may force you to think real hard.
if you have faith in Science, it may force you to think real hard.
Not a disease I'm afflicted with, thank heavens.
I know all of that, Mellifluous, but your regular FR/CHA still blames Clinton for both Ruby Ridge, bizarre yes, and Waco. The Oklahoma City reference to was the reaction by right-wing hatemongers to the president's suggestion that right-wing hate mongering might have contributedto McVeigh's motivation.
he went to a kind of military school in New York which was a place where any children of fascists were educated
Xavier High School, on 16th Street in Manhattan, was founded in 1847 and is run by the Society of Jesus, aka the Jesuits. For a long time it was also a Jr. ROTC school. Military stuff used to be complusory, (although it no longer is) but was largely disdained by the Jesuits and did not factor into grades. One could get an "F" in miltary science for four years and graduate with honors.
Lots of proud lefties have come from Xavier. The priest on who was the model for the priest in "On the Waterfront" held his meetings in Xavier's cafeteria.
Most Xavier students were not fascist pricks like Scalia. My grandfather got his head smashed by Pinkertons in the early days of union organizing 1910's and my old man is as antiBush as anybody on this site. Most of my classmates were working class catholics, and many went on to become NYC cops and firemen. We lost 40 alums & family on 911. Scalia is as controversial in the Xavier community as he is anywhere else.
Anyway the point of this long post is to call attention to Dershowitz's cheap slur. It doesn't enhance my opinion of the man. 99.99% of readers wouldn't even notice that my father and the fathers of hundreds of my classmates were just slandered. It's not really a big deal, but it yet it is. I'm glad to have Dershowitz on our side, but we can win our cases without hitting below the belt.
Also, it's not "any" children, anyway. Xavier has always been a high school for men only.
J Sundman, Xavier HS '70
Most Xavier students were not fascist pricks like Scalia. My grandfather got his head smashed by Pinkertons in the early days of union organizing 1910's and my old man is as antiBush as anybody on this site. Most of my classmates were working class catholics, and many went on to become NYC cops and firemen. We lost 40 alums & family on 911. Scalia is as controversial in the Xavier community as he is anywhere else.
See, we wouldn't have learned that without comments. Haloscan sucks, but I love comments.
I think (I hope) the sentence Dershowitz wrote was intended to say, "most fascists in that area sent their kids to this school," but it could easily be read to mean, "this school was mainly for fascists."
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