I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Did I hear Ann Richards say that Karpinski's training was in "hotel management?" How the hell do you get to be a general doing that?
Remember when Clinton got called for every little error...but Chimpy McFlightsuit aims for the big lie I guess.
Lousy rotten, stinkin', lying, Chimperor.
Hotel management? Seems like she wouldn't get a lot of return guests...
So *that's* why they called it the Hanoi Hilton!
My reaction to monkey boy is escalating....now, every time I see his ugly mug on TV, I say "Fuck you asshole!!"....I used to just say "Kiss My Ass"
Worst
President
Ever
I really wish Kerry would make a campaign promise that he will sign the ICC treaty.
Now I don't think Bush should get the death penalty but a price must be paid. Something along the lines of "The Man Without a Country." Put him on ship and never let him set foot on land again.
However if it ever gets to trial he'll probably seek sanctuary in Saudia Arabia and hang out with Idi Amin...
The sheer volume of lies is deadening - as it's meant to be. To keep all of them straight will entail use of both PowerPoint and Excel - I wish I'd started that spreadsheet three years ago however, to record the ways of the MBA Resident.
Speaking of lies and the lying liars that tell them:
Dozens of people killed in a U.S. attack in the Iraqi desert Wednesday were attending a high-level meeting of foreign fighters, not a wedding, and photos shown to reporters in Baghdad support that belief, according to the senior coalition military spokesman.
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said six women were among the dead, but there is no evidence any children died in the raid early Wednesday near the Syrian border.
Coalition officials have said that as many as 40 people were killed in the attack.
He said that video showing dead children killed was actually recorded in Ramadi, far from the attack scene.
An Iraqi man interviewed by The Associated Press as the bodies of women and children were unloaded from a truck for burial said they had gathered for a wedding celebration when they were attacked.
"There may have been some kind of celebration," Kimmitt said. "Bad people have celebrations too. Bad people have parties too."
Just keep telling it long enough and loud enough... you know, the Nazi way!
dave - That's "Change the channel" Kimmit for you. He says this shit, then has to retract it, now he's trying it out again. I'm betting another retraction is in the works as I type.
I'd give my left kidney to see the "l" word describe these jokers in print.
Caught totally with their pants down around their ankles on this, I think! If nothing serious is done about this lie by our administration, we no longer live in a just and democratic nation.
In Iraq
Marines admit abuse at second prison
just when you think things can't get much worse!!! Jeebus!!! were will it end??
That's "Change the channel" Kimmit for you. He says this shit, then has to retract it, now he's trying it out again.
Or if it's too much trouble to change the channel, you could just stay tuned to CNN where I heard Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr in her best imitation of an actual journalist say today that we'll never know what really happened.
Thank god we weren't treating them inhumanely. Imagine what that would have been like.
One really doesn't need the ICC. There is a US War Crimes Act:
TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 118
Sec. 2441. - War crimes
(a) Offense. -
Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.
(b) Circumstances. -
The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the person committing such war crime or the victim of such war crime is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act).
(c) Definition. -
As used in this section the term ''war crime'' means any conduct -
(1) defined as a grave breach in any of the international conventions signed at Geneva 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party;
(2)prohibited by Article 23, 25, 27, or 28 of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed 18 October 1907;
(3) which constitutes a violation of common Article 3 of the international conventions signed at Geneva, 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party and which deals with non-international armed conflict; or
(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3 May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol, willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians
------
Note that this is federal law, not included in UCMJ, so it applies to both members of the armed forces and to civilians. It was passed in 1996 and allows for fines, imprisonment up to life and when death results from the crime, the death penalty.
Its major drawback is that it refers specifically to the person who commits such a crime, not to the one who orders, allows, permits, condones or sanctions such crime.
One thing that really annoys me is that two recent articles will most certainly be used by the forces of darkness to minimize the torture/abuses.
The first one is today's WaPo article "Punishment and Amusement:
Documents Indicate 3 Photos Were Not Staged for Interrogation"
Its an excellent article largely based on the statements of the MPs involved, and really has condmening evidence that MI directed/encouraged much of the abuse. However, perhaps largely because the headline focused on three photos, which were based on just doing it for kicks, other media is picking up on this and making it seem like everything was for the jollies of a few.
The other article is an AP article from yesterday "Many Iraq Prison Abuses Occurred in Nov." This article begins,
"Many of the worst abuses that have come to light from the Abu Ghraib prison happened on a single November day amid a flare of insurgent violence in Iraq, the deaths of many U.S. soldiers and a breakdown of the American guards' command structure..."
zombiebirdhouse - The reason I call Kimmit that is because when we were basically massacring the residents of Faloojeh, Kimmit had a press conference and upon being asked what he thought Iraqis would feel upon seeing footage from Faloojeh that was being broadcast by Al Jazeera, he said: "Tell them to change the channel."
Oh, that works.
Just like this latest Kimmit statement will work. I still haven't heard any reason for the wedding singer from Baghdad being with the "bad people" who were air bombed.
Sorry, I submitted this prematurely. So, anyway, there you have it... for the freeperati who can't read,
Abuses were done by a few for fun and were done mostly on a single day under stressful conditions.
For example, here is how MSNBC describes the WaPo article:
WP: Abuse to punish, amuse
And here is how Drudge describes the AP story:
Wire: Worst Iraq prison abuse happened on one day, amid surge in violence...
AP article at
http://tinyurl.com/2q2mf
WaPo article at
http://tinyurl.com/2xhb5
smarty jones - that sounds like the "it all happened in one wild night" excuse that was going around earlier for what happened in Abu Ghraib. At this point one would really think that the administration here and the brass in Iraq would have finally gotten the message that all these attempts to ameliorate what happened are not getting them anywhere with anyone outside of Rush Limbaugh and his filthy ilk.
...I heard (CNN) Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr in her best imitation of an actual journalist say today that we'll never know what really happened.
Yeah, if CNN has its way!
Tena: It really pisses me off to hear a journalist like Barbara Starr say two days into the investigation that we'll just never know what happened. Uh, hello! Wouldn't that sorta be your job to try to find out?
As to Kimmet, did you see his press briefing the day he walked off stage and returned only to pass out into the microphone? This was about a week before Abu Ghraib broke and I keep wondering if he had just seen the pictures. I assumed at the time that he was diabetic, but I've never heard what that was actually about.
...I heard (CNN) Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr in her best imitation of an actual journalist say today that we'll never know what really happened.
Yeah, if CNN has its way!
dave
Today's NYT editorial basically says the same thing, but only because the Pentagon and the Bush administration is prevaricating in its testimony before the congressional committees. It therefore encourages Congress to create an independent panel with full subpoena powers to get to the truth.
The only thing missing from the editorial was the NYT calling for the immediate firing of Rumsfeld, etc. (although it has already called for Rummy's head) and impeachment proceedings.
Someone Shut Kimmitt the Fuck Up!!!!
He is a danger to our country!
...the Bush administration is prevaricating in its testimony... Oh, Holy Christ, say it isn't so.
Smarty, last night on Larry King, McCain said that they didn't turn over the entire Taguba report and he was royally pissed off. Curiouser & curiouser.
It really pisses me off to hear a journalist like Barbara Starr say two days into the investigation that we'll just never know what happened. Uh, hello! Wouldn't that sorta be your job to try to find out?
Nah, that's the job of the foreign press, so that they can be ignored and dismissed later. The Guardian and Independent talked to people. Most US correspondents are too busy drinking out the minibars in their Baghdad hotels to bother doing any actual journalism.
(Except Jane Araf, who is the designated flak-jacket wearer at the moment.)
And the fourth Geneva Convention applies, whether the US wants it to or not. There's a clause discussing severe security threats:
Where, in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.
Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.
In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.
But to say that that means the treaty 'doesn't apply' is just illogical, since they're invoking it to excuse themselves. And the treatment at Abu Ghraib doesn't even come up to the standards for 'spies and saboteurs' in the fourth Convention.
On Friday, the top U.N. human rights official, Bertand Ramcharan, said even if some of those at the house were involved in criminal activity, that was no excuse for killing so many people.
Here is what the U.N has to say about Kimmitt's insanity...
``The acting United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has expressed shock over the deaths of some 40 civilians at a wedding party in Iraq near the Syrian border,'' his office said in a statement.
``Even if there are security-related concerns, there can be no license to commit carnage.''
oops, sorry about my bad cut and paste
Berkeley Law Students Denounce Professor
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Nearly 200 law students and alumni at the University of California, Berkeley have denounced a professor who helped the Bush administration develop what critics say is the legal framework that led to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners.
The professor, John Yoo, co-wrote a legal memo in 2002 that laid out reasons the United States did not have to comply with international treaties regarding the treatment of prisoners. Yoo was a top government lawyer at the time...
http://tinyurl.com/2rvsb
Bad people have parties too.
Bad people have parties too.
Yes the republican party, for example.
No world court, no Geneva conventions, allies are more trouble than they're worth, fuck Old Europe, the UN is passe, a glorious coalition of the willing, Gitmoize the Iraqi prisons, the Iraqi people are a)wonderful people who we've come to liberate, b)insurgents, c)terrorists, d)foreign fighters, e)thugs f)murderers g)former regime loyalists h)former Batthists i)Hajis oh yeah and it's all Clinton's fault.
Liars and Crooks
Liars and Crooks
Kerry nailed it
Liars and Crooks
Scorpio
Eccentricity
Robert,
One really doesn't need the ICC. There is a US War Crimes Act:
Yes that's true. But... what are the odds that Bush would ever be accused let alone be brought to trial in the US?
The White House legal counsel has already laid a legal pretext for a future defense.
If you think politics is partisan now, just wait for a War Crimes trial. It'd make the Bill Clinton impeachment look like a tempest in a teapot... Hell, it'd tear this country apart.
Furthermore, what would keep Bush from resigning and Prez Cheney from pardonning him?
I say sign the Treaty turn over all the "High Level Policy Makers" to the Int'l Criminal Court. This would go far in regaining our stature in the eyes of world by repudiating the politicians that set up the policy of torture.
Also I believe that the ICC does not have a death penalty, although I'm not a 100% sure about that...
Zombiebirdhouse - I didn't see that Kimmit speech, just read about it. He really should just keep his mouth shut - he hasn't helped anything by any of his dumbass beligerant statements.
This was news to me (from the NYT editorial)
...The Denver Post reported this week that military records documented the deaths of at last five Iraqi prisoners during brutal interrogations, only one of them at Abu Ghraib. In one especially chilling case, the former head of Iraq's air force turned himself in and was held at a "high value" prison, where interrogators appear to have killed him by stuffing him headfirst into a sleeping bag, sitting on his chest and covering his mouth. The Pentagon papered this over with a press release saying the prisoner "said he didn't feel well and subsequently lost consciousness."
Tena: He said that their was NO evidence that a wedding was going on, just a party and that bad people have parties too. He announced that it was a dorm for foreign fighters coming in through Syria, then he said that six women had been found among the dead. Oh yeah, and NO dead kids.
Zombiebirdhouse - Then how does he account for the pictures of dead children, the statements from doctors at the hospital and the footage of the debris from the raid? How does he account for the death of the wedding singer?
Someone needs to pull the plug on Kimmit and now.
He also said that the investigation is concluding that the people were engaged in either "criminal or terrorist activities."
So he is not sure if it was criminal (which would be smuggling) or terrorist activity. Even though he doesn't know which, surely they were doing something wrong that justified carnage.
Hence my post about the U.N. response above. Seriously, I think this man, along with numerous others, should be relieved of their command and made to clean latrines.
Boykin, Sanchez, Myers, Miller, etc.
Listen, Tena,
bad people have parties, too.
It just wasn't a wedding. And there were no children killed. Trust me. Plus Adam Sandler is alive and well, so I don't know what you are talking about regarding a dead wedding singer.
Sincerely,
Brig. Gen. Kimmitt
Then how does he account for the pictures of dead children, the statements from doctors at the hospital and the footage of the debris from the raid? How does he account for the death of the wedding singer?
Now Tena, the investigation is underway and when it's complete it will begin to work its way up the chain of command and within a few months when it reaches Kimmet he can either tell us what really happened or as in the case of Abu Ghraib start a new investigation by someone that isn't so insensitive to the needs of his superiors.
(re: war crimes laws will only apply to those that commit, not those that order, condone, etc.)
Can't we nail these guys using RICO statutes? Racketteering laws stretched as they are.
Any senate hearings on the prisoners' issue coming up this week? open and broadcast on c-span? anyone know?
I say sign the Treaty turn over all the "High Level Policy Makers" to the Int'l Criminal Court. This would go far in regaining our stature in the eyes of world by repudiating the politicians that set up the policy of torture.
Scaramouche, I quite agree that we should rejoin the ICC (or else the words on the Supreme Court building "Equal Justice under Law" mean nothing [actually they don't mean much the way the law is applied anyway]). But the main reason is that the crimes that the leadership of the US are guilty of are the Nuremberg Principles, which have been incorporated into international law, and not of the Geneva Conventions which is the subject of the US War Crimes Act of 1996.
Robert,
I think you bring up an interesting point about juridiction (if I'm understanding you correctly).
I believe that the Nuremberg Trials resulted in the hanging of some and the imprisonment of others. Yet they saved their harshest cristicism for those who started the War. At least that's my understanding...
Whichever venue gets the trial (that is if it ever get's to trial) there must be the complimntary elimination of Amercian exceptionalism when it comes to int'l law. That'll go far in diminishing the stigma brought on all of us by this Administration
I was stuck in Seattle traffic this afternoon, and in a brief moment of madness flipped on some wingnut radio. I was immediately assaulted by some guy screeching about "*abuses*, not atrocities!". He was so pissed off at the "liberal" media for "playing up the story" he could barely get his words out. From what I could understand he seemed to be saying that while yes, our troops have engaged in a little rough play, anyone making this into anything more was at best a dupe if not a card-carrying Baathist.
Unfortunately, this is going to be the party line from here on, folks. "Yes, abuses did occur, but only by a depraved, unpatriotic few (and on only one or two dark, unpatriotic nights). But none of this constitutes 'torture' or 'atrocities'. Any use of these words, in fact any further harping on the recent unpleasantness, only sullies our Noble Cause, and gives aid and comfort to those who hate us, to those who hate Freedom."
Of course, buying any of this requires a massive communal ignorance of history. But hey, in WingerWorld, studying history is close to a thought crime anyway.
Just remember: Atrocities can only be committed by our enemies. And ignore that giant scraping sound - that of our country hitting yet another moral bottom.
(Link to a great article by an Arab academic who does read history in the "homepage" below).
I believe that the Nuremberg Trials resulted in the hanging of some and the imprisonment of others. Yet they saved their harshest cristicism for those who started the War. At least that's my understanding...
Well, yes and no. The came down hard on Hitler himself, but they also made it clear that it was the people who encouraged him and gave him advice who were also to blame.
Here is part of the summing up after the presentation of the evidence from the Nuremberg trials. Particularly appropriate to the present situation is the following:
"But let me for a moment turn devil's advocate. I admit that Hitler was the chief villain. But for the defendants to put all blame on him is neither manly nor true. We know that even the head of the State has the same limits to his senses and to the hours of his days as do lesser men. He must rely on others to be his eyes and ears as to most that goes on in a great empire. Other legs must run his errands; other hands must execute his plans. On whom did Hitler rely for such things more than upon these men in the dock? Who led him to believe he had an invincible air armada if not Goering? Who kept disagreeable facts from him? Did not Goering forbid Field Marshal Milch to warn Hitler that in his opinion Germany was not equal to the war upon Russia? Did not Goering, according to Speer, relieve General Gallant of his air force command for speaking of the weaknesses and bungling of the air force? Who led Hitler, utterly untravelled himself, to believe in the indecision and timidity of democratic peoples if not Ribbentrop, von Neurath, and von Papen? Who fed his illusion of German invincibility if not Keitel, Jodl, Raeder, and Donitz? Who kept his hatred of the Jews inflamed more than Streicher and Rosenberg? Who would Hitler say deceived him about conditions in concentration camps if not Kaltenbrunner, even as he would deceive us? These men had access to Hitler and often could control the information that reached him and on which he must base his policy and his orders. They were the Praetorian Guard, and while they were under Caesar's orders, Caesar was always in their hands."
I particularly like that comment about "utterly untravelled himself."
A nice detail that adds versimilitude.
i can't believe the army is still debying that they hit a wedding. JUST because the chimp doesn't think he made any mistakes, doesn't mean the whole army can do the same.
Article IV? Don't the Geneva Conventions apply to all citizens in a conqurered/occupied nation, even if they engage in terrorism or war crimes? How on Earth can the government claim otherwise?
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