I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Kerry - the paleocon???
Stranger things have happened...
Do you feel safer today than you did four years ago?
It might work.
I was surprised how the media took the spin of Kerry and Bush having the same positions on Iraq and then failing to mention the chronology.
Which means, Kerry has an idea and Bush takes it because all of his suck.
Now try my Wu Tang style.
Pretty smart move -- Kerry's right. Honestly, I could give a damn about democracy in the world right now. I'd much rather kick ass on al Qaeda and secure all of the nuclear material so America doesn't get dirty bombed.
Cue up the Naderbots...
I was watching the News Watch show on Fox News, you know, for laughs, and they had a segment discussing the New York Times' Miller Culpa. "The Times did a bad job reporting about the runup to the war!"
Especially from Cal Thomas.
ANother Bizarro world moment.
I just had to send them an email, it messed up my reality so much.
"Do you watch the Fox News?"
Who is he trying to appeal to by doing all of this?
MYOB'
.
Good morning, Iraq!
OT, but nevertheless interesting.
It'd also be cool if we stopped going on these messianic Victorian civilizing romps 'round the globe to teach the brown people how to be civilized and love Baby Jesus.
We'd have more resources left over to supply simple stuff, like, food to places like Haiti and the Sudan. Remember those places? Haiti? Sudan? Anyone?
W is grasping at straws.
He now cuddles up to outlaws.
His plan's gone to shit,
It's time to admit,
That the bad guys have pulled his claws.
Bush needs that straw so he can shit a brick.
By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - Several U.S. guards allege they witnessed military intelligence operatives encouraging the abuse of Iraqi prison inmates at four prisons other than Abu Ghraib, investigative documents show.
He's trying to appeal to the independents who are supposed to like Bush's bellicosity. It sounds more like a tai chi -move to me: you do not lead, your enemy leads; you do not move if your enemy doesn't but when he does you move faster; the power you use is your enemy's power.
Gah, Kerry is no martial arts guru.
Guess we'll need more bulldozers if we are going to knock them all down.
"Now try my Wu Tang style......"
Look ma...I'm a bigger reactionary than GWB!
All Bush knows is Drunken Boxer.
"Mano a Mano, old man! Bring it on!"
Naderbots: ACTIVATED
Looks like the Pottery Barn will have to put a "Under New Management" banner out.
I don't live in a swing state (just a Swinging State, yea baby!) So I don't know if there already has been a Kerry ad about this, but there should be one remarking that the GOP claims Keery Flip flops, and then show a clip of that famous quote from the 2000 debates where Dreary Leader said "I'm not into using our military to build nations" and then ask the question "Then why the F*#K di we invade in Iraq, Georgie boy?" WMDs? Pursuing OBL? Stealing Oil? Giving them Democracy? Maybe MoveOn should give it a shot.
"9/11 changed everything, even my underwear" -GWB
"It'd also be cool if we stopped going on these messianic Victorian civilizing romps 'round the globe to teach the brown people how to be civilized and love ..........a 'White" Baby Jesus. "
The real Jesus was brown.....
I don't live in a swing state (just a Swinging State, yea baby!)
Best post ever.
If only we could put the neocons into a swinging from their necks state.
I had coffee with Jesus yesterday. He's a blond, blue-eyed Teuton who plays midfield for Bayern-Munich.
After the Nick Berg beheading (shouldn't it be deheading?), I went through all the Austin Powers jokes,
"Guess he lost his head."
"He should have been more strongheaded."
"Guess he'll never be the head of a major corporation."
Except maybe NewsCorp.
As far as I know, Kerry doesn't do martial arts, but he does a lot of sailboarding and is probably pretty good at figuring out which way the wind is blowing.
WAPO today:
"During this period of campaigning, Kerry has not outlined a new strategy for the most vexing foreign policy issue: the situation in Iraq. He articulated a plan for Iraq several weeks ago which, with minor nuances, is similar to Bush's current approach..."
CURRENT APPROACH????
If Kerry abandoned his position and adopted Bush's, they'd hammer him as a flip flopper. When Bush does it they hammer Kerry because their plans are NOW the same.
Can we send these stenographers to Gitmo?
Now when Bush's plan to get Nato and everyone in fails (because they screw everything up), they'll blame Kerry.
Fingerpointing: "It was his idea! I knew it wouldn't work!"
Remember after the ranty section of Gore speech when he said that Kerry shouldn't have a plan for Iraq right now because it's in such a state of flux? I agree with him. Kerry's got to play this by ear. It's wrongheaded and foolish to have a drop dead get-out-of-Iraq date as so much of the left wing is calling for.
Have the neocon's renamed their plan yet?
Plan for a New American Cemetary
Didn't think so.
EXTORTION IS AN UGLY WORD but..
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The United States may not have enough U.N. votes to exempt American soldiers from prosecution by a new global criminal court, with China now questioning the action in view of the prison scandal in Iraq, diplomats said on Thursday.
A Security Council draft resolution designed to put U.S. peacekeepers out of the reach of the International Criminal Court expires on July 1. A renewal was delayed last week by China and it is expected to go before the council again after a resolution on Iraq's transition is adopted.
Two years ago the council voted unanimously in favor of the measure when the Bush administration began to veto U.N. peacekeeping missions after members hesitated.
This is beautiful, because it's going to make the Neocons have to gag on their own phoney platitudes about spreading democracy--which is just so much bullshit to them, anyway.
Nice job, JFK!
I agree with Old Hat.
Kerry's response should be:
"With Bush running it for another six months I expect conditions in Iraq to change dramatically for the worse. I am paying close attention and I will make my decisions based on the facts, not ideology, and I will think through the consequences of those decisions. Now fuck off!"
"Now try my Wu Tang style......"
Look ma...I'm a bigger reactionary than GWB!
What does that mean?
Kerry's New slogan: "America Frist!"
"Cue up the Naderbots":
Well I happen to generally like and support Nader, which I suppose might make me a "Naderbot" (I appreciate the aggressive pre-emptive name-calling, quite an odd approach).
Anyway I think that Kerry definitely making some good points in this interview. It appears to me that he's trying to move the media toward the core of the foreign policy argument, which is: Bush is essentially aiding terrorism. Fighting terrorism using (for the most part) military force is like fighting a bacterial infection using a battering ram. We need a more capable president who understands the world and appreciates nuance and strategy.
Still, Kerry seems pretty weak on committing himself to a plan of action that would end the unfolding catastrophes in Iraq and Afghanistan. Kucinich and Nader are both far stronger on this, offering bold critiques (not just the political rhetoric of emotionally potent oversimplification) and concrete plans to withdraw US troops.
More generally, my attitude toward Nader-haters is: Make 'em squirm, Ralph!
Kerry, who has devoted much of his two-decade Senate career to foreign-policy issues, was comfortable and confident in answering questions that hopscotched across the globe and various trouble spots. He provided detailed and sometimes complex answers that occasionally drew on his experiences in meeting leaders in the Middle East, Asia and Latin America.
Jesus H. Christ on a stick, my nipples practically hardened when I read this graf. It's been three years, at the very least, since we someone formulating a foreign policy that accounted for, you know, foreigners and their foreigness. That acknowledged the fact that we're four percent of the world's population and that we might not have all the answers and, even if we did, no one would believe us so others have to work them out on their own. And our job may be to keep the world from incinerating itself in the meantime.
Damn Haloscan. Damn it.
Will Kerry be making foreign policy decisions based on what Israel, Saudi Arabia and Iran want, like Bush?
Still, Kerry seems pretty weak on committing himself to a plan of action that would end the unfolding catastrophes in Iraq and Afghanistan. Kucinich and Nader are both far stronger on this, offering bold critiques (not just the political rhetoric of emotionally potent oversimplification) and concrete plans to withdraw US troops.
It's not as simple as just hauling ass out of there. That's not a "far stronger" policy plan, that's nearsightedness and bullheadedness.
Anyway, the whole region is changing dramatically from day to day. I think it's wise to take a wait and see approach.
"It's wrongheaded and foolish to have a drop dead get-out-of-Iraq date as so much of the left wing is calling for."
Exactly. What do you suppose is going to happen on 6/30? Bush has invested it with such symbolism that he is daring the insurgents to "bring it on" on a date certain just to prove there is no security under the coalition. Expect a lull for much of June, with Sadr and others laying low. The shit hits the fan at the "handover" when Bush's stupidity precipitates an Iraqi Tet offensive. I know Bush doesn't read, but for christ's sake, wasn't he sober for SOME period of time in January, 1968?
Bush's "With Us/Against Us" scorecard make it easy for him to decide what to do.
I wonder if he thinks "Nuance" is a country?
Sometimes I dream I am Kate O'Beirne's teeth. It's like living in a very hollow cave. The only excitement I get is when the shit flys by me at the speed of light.
I wonder if he thinks "Nuance" is a country?
Yeh, it's in the Western Hemispere, as opposed to Ance, the old country its settlers named it for.
I wonder if he thinks "Nuance" is a country?
Yeh, it's in the Western Hemispere, as opposed to Ance, the old country its settlers named it for.
Sorry - damn public library server.
"I wonder if he thinks "Nuance" is a country?"
France was old Europe. Nuance is what he'll get to take its place.
The more I hear from Kerry, the more I give the guy credit. I don't give any weight to the tough talk. What I see is that he understands the reality of the situation in Iraq (basically that we're fucked and we have to settle for the best deal we can get without giving away everything.) Of course he can't say the truth and win the election, so he says what he must. That's the sort of shit you have to do in a dysfunctional civic environment like the US. Read between the lines--he's saying that he'll read the situation and do the best for America. He's also saying that that he has some moral standards and has some boundaries that he operates in. He's a politician, an intelligent guy, and a fairly decent human being. To me he seem like an old style politician of the acceptable variety--definitely an improvement over what we have now--a lying piece of shit. And I like the way he keeps throwing little provocative bombs at the opposition, just to piss them off--Except for Florida and election is an election--I like it.
Kerry announced his strategy several weeks back: he is simply preserving his acceptability as an alternative to Bush. And it's working. I hope he doesn't say a single controversial or sweeping thing between now and November. Just keep the focus on Bush and his failures, so the election is a referendum on the last 4 years.
Kerry will make a fine POTUS.
I esp. liked his calling them
"weapons of mass murder.''
That old prosecutor.
Yes, Old Hat, democracy takes time.
Patience.
It's not as simple as just hauling ass out of there. That's not a "far stronger" policy plan, that's nearsightedness and bullheadedness.
Anyway, the whole region is changing dramatically from day to day. I think it's wise to take a wait and see approach.
I agree that a cautious "wait and see" approach makes political sense at this point, because the situation is indeed so volatile.
On the other hand, it's also possible to offer a concrete plan on the fly and be willing to change it, or scrap it altogether, in accordance with the changing situation on the ground.
It seems to me that the ability to offer substantive action plans in the midst of volatile change, and being flexible and adept enough to change those plans according to changing conditions, is an important qualification for handling the office of the US presidency.
Peace.
...so it'll be sort of amusing to see Kerry strike back at Bush by asking why the hell we're wasting our money and soldiers' lives for those damn furriners.
Hello? How many times do people have to say this?
Get these assholes out of here.
A terrific interview, especially after Gore's scathing speech of Wednesday. He offered ideas, not specifics, and this early it is always best to avoid specifics. IMHO, he has a serious shot of out-Roving Unkkka Karl, which would leave Chimpy dead in the water.
Kerry/Bush 04
I'm impressed with Kerry's grasp of foreign affairs. So impressed, that I am seriously considering giving him some turkee next Thursday.
After reading Billy Blue-Stone's (Safire) inane article Wednesday, I starting having much the same thoughts. I thought:
"Ok, so Bush is finally making concessions and workable plans... 14 months AFTER the invasion began. A little late, don't you think?"
And then, after his last sentence, which is real doozy.
We'll see tomorrow, in his answer to Bush's concessionary tactics and unwavering purpose.
"OK? So, Bush steals Kerry's plans, and is actually more of a peacenik 'let's go to the UN' than Kerry, and he has an 'unwavering purpose'??? He packages his opponent's ideas as his own, after political pressure, and he has PURPOSE?!?!"
And I thought it was the Democratic Party that didn't have any fresh ideas? [/sarcasm]
because george was more interested in democracy that getting sadaam in an oedipal fantasy. wink wink nudge nudge.
Hey there,
First time poster, long time ... whatever,
BUT ... listen (see below) to the entire interview.! Honestly, this is one of the first long interviews with him that I've listened to. (And I LIVE in Boston!) He totally knows what he's talking about AND he sounds VERY comfortable and in command while in conversation - remember Clinton? Like that!
I can't seem to find a link to a transcript, but this audio feed is great.
Enjoy!
#
I'll record it too, so I can listen to the whole thing in more detail away from the PC.
OT: Bush gives interview to Christian journalists. (I've got some thoughts on my blog.)
Oops, missing the link to the audio:
GS
Here's the full one-hour enedited audio link to the interview from the Wash Post
Kerry is pissing me off at times by being so timid. I hope he knows what he's doing, cause I don't think we can survive 4 more years of Whistle-
ass bush!
Oops, missing the link to the audio:
GS
Here's the full one-hour enedited audio link to the interview from the Wash Post
Kerry is being very, very smart. Bold, sweeping statements at this point would only force him to retract some portion of them later and get slammed for inconsistency, flip-flopping, etc. Nuanced positions may not be as satisfying to Joe Citizen, but they're the responsible thing to do.
And this gives him a good way to continue making the election about Bush, while preserving his ability to make bold, smart, realistic decisions once he's actually in office.
Brian C.B., Haloscan and nipples aside (or not), that is a very exciting graph indeed. Makes me feel all . . . well, never mind.
Woot give preznit Kerry titties?
kerry always seems weak but really is strong. he is a tai chi master.
this is bushs war. the buck stops with bush! kerry should point out that bushs plan, is his plan, only now it's too late, 'cause now everyone hates your punk little ass. of course he is a much better diplomat and will say it with a finer point. just as long as he sticks it in hard.
really everything is in flux, bush is way out of his league, looks like a deer stuck in the headlites, kerry could probably do some of the things that need to be done, but they need to be done now. too late, little george has handled it like everything he has f'd up in his life and now we all pay the price.
can't wait for the debates.
Spent the day before the day before Memorial Day in acquiring and repairing and replacing stuff. Everywhere I went - the bank, stores, nursery - it struck me that -that- young person was draft age, and -that- young person was going to be called up. This is what happens when you've filed the application to serve on the Draft Board, as a preventitive. Yeppers - there are an awful lot of fodder out there, just waiting to be used up.
Whooopee.
If that's what Kerry means, then he's goddam right!
Iraqi's don't vote! They don't even surf! Fuck 'em all.
All this crap about how we're really doing the Iraqis some good is such a big pile of irrelevant bullshit. If they want a democracy, they can damn well make one themselves, like we had to. So, whenever I hear somebody talk about the good boyscout deed all our soldiers are doing over there, I just want to puke all over their shoes.
If Bush, before the war, had said, "We want to bomb Iraq into the stone age and then take away their stones," a lot more people would be supporting him now. Now, that may sound harsh and may be hard for some people to swallow when they're in a rational mood, but it is a lot easier to stomach than this false treacly shit they're marketing to us now. We would have had clear, achievable goals and we would know when we were done. We wouldn't have to explain the cognitive disconnect between our "good deeds" and Abu Ghraib.
Bush should make up his fucking mind why he's in Iraq. You can't torture and sexually humiliate people and bomb their mosques and also say you're helping them. Everybody can see that.
So, big kudos to Kerry. This is an EXCELLENT line of attack. I hope he keeps it up. I'll even make and sell t-shirts for him that say, "Fuck the Iraqis, vote for Kerry!"
I actually tried this argument a few days ago on a staunch Bush supporter I know. The guy's one of these "hard-headed realists," where everyone to the left of Ayn Rand is a hippy-dippy do-gooder.
I mentioned something about how it was odd that people who usually went in for ruthless realpolitik were getting all teary-eyed over the plight of a bunch of Arabs, and suggested that BushCo were trying to act as "do-gooders."
He didn't seem too fazed. He said, "Well, people get angry when you tell them the real reasons for invading countries. They like things sugarcoated." He went on to say that there was at least one fringe benefit of the Iraq debacle...people would view do-gooders with more skepticism in future.
Which suggests that this man--and people like him--are brain-dead, soulless jackals. At least, that's how it looks to a contemporary.
Atlas Shrugged = toilet paper
Reading some of the Kerry interview I def walked away emboldened. I can only hope that middle America can grasp some of the concepts he was getting at rather than juss wanting to all furriner Muslims.
Ooooh, goody, goody, goody. A smart candidate, capable of intelligent strategy. Just my kinda guy. It's been way too long, this long national nightmare.
Atlas Shrugged = toilet paper
I can't go along with that. Toilet paper is useful. Beyond that, it actually represents a progressive human thought, which was thoughtfully conceived and expertly carried out.
How about Atlas Shrugged = Pet Rocks...or some other useless, tawdry fad.
that's my kerry.
smart man.
"competence over ideology"
This is the battle of our time.
If Kerry keeps up the good work. I might just give his elite, patrician ass some turkee.
He is close to winning me over to not disliking him.
Old Hat : What does that mean?
"Look Ma...I'm a bigger reactionary than GWB !"
Reactionary = (pejorative) more conservative
in the worst way.
Enjoy!
"The last time I looked, except for Florida, an election is an election," Kerry said.
rough like Dean but mild mannered!
It's swell that Kessler's piece covers the issue but this is weird:
'At one point, he stumbled over the words when he tried to emphasize his interest in promoting American values: "The idea of America is, I think proudly and chauvinistically, the best idea that we've developed in this world."'
WHAT stumbling? He uses a colon but Kerry's quote isn't mangled. Does the word "chauvinistic" confuse him? He's running against BUSH for claude's sake! And IRONICALLY, the high critic himself then writes:
"Bush's campaign ads have sought to portray Kerry as a [sic] unreliable leftist..." AND
"He accused to [sic]the Bush administration..."
Reactionary = (pejorative) more conservative
in the worst way.
Enjoy!
smirking monkey
That may be what YOU meant, but "reactionary" just means reactionary...a knee-jerk emotional response, unencumbered by critical thinking or common sense or any other cognitive virtue.
Not true of Kerry. Whether it's true of you, I don't presume to know. But the "Enjoy!" bit is certainly suggestive.
Maybe I'm crazy, but everyone at my work(Los Angeles film shit) thinks Bush and Kerry both suck. Couldn't we have someone who isn't afraid of getting shot, and have a vision? I getting real close voting for Bush, because I don't think people know how bad it can get.
Give me fucking strength!!!
I getting real close voting for Bush, because I don't think people know how bad it can get.
Give me fucking strength!!!
Mark
I'd rather give you fucking brains.
That may be what YOU meant, but "reactionary" just means reactionary...a knee-jerk emotional response, unencumbered by critical thinking or common sense or any other cognitive virtue.
I wouldn't argue with that popular definition..... put a picture of an idiot like Ann Coulter/Sean Hannity next to it ...!?
Isn't that the same as extreme close minded conservatism in the worst way ?
'Score' one for Ted Rall, maybe. Turns out Tillman was nailed by friendlies (hopefully not by friendlies on speed, something that is a big scandal in the wings, literally).
Wanna fight for your country? Want to do it without armor? Want to do it in trucks with Carlyle's 'Unkevlar™,' the stuff that breaks like peanut brittle rather than cracks like safety glass? Want to check out how badly organized wars run by a half-time president work out for the grunts?
Then we have the country and the war for you. You can do ANYTHING you like, except kill binLaden or Zarkawi, we need them alive for political purposes. Mow 'em down, kiddo. And, oops, don't forget that the good guys are wearing desert grays. If they have that khaki stuff that we supplied them, mow 'em down too. Can't be too careful; real soldiers make the big bucks and work for corps, not Corps.
Only Bush or Kerry are going to win this election. No one else has a shot in hell. This election is a referendum on liberal / progressive ideas and causes. If Kerry wins, liberalism will be seen as part of a winning coalition. If Bush wins, liberalism will be see as an albatross that must be jettisoned to create a winning coalition. If other words, a vote for Nader is actually a no confidence vote of progressivism.
"Only Bush or Kerry are going to win this election. No one else has a shot in hell. "
You do not yet have proof that Bush will survive to election.
"This election is a referendum on liberal / progressive ideas and causes."
The hell it is. It's an experiment in whether or not the Diebold dirty bomb has been successfully defused. As far as that goes, expect to see SecStates' bodyparts flying past, mostly waving and saying hooray for the corporations.
" If Kerry wins, liberalism will be seen as part of a winning coalition. If Bush wins, liberalism will be see as an albatross that must be jettisoned to create a winning coalition."
Seen? By whom, the blind? We are in the middle of a coup, not a national referendum on anything other than 'Is it is good idea to suffer traitors lightly?', the answer being NO!! underlined 800+ times.
Get working and keep a pencil sharpener handy. You have six months.
Bush LIed...Impeach NOW!
Traitors don't deserve elections.
" If other words, a vote for Nader is actually a no confidence vote of progressivism.
Darwin"
Oops, the bit at the end. A vote for Nader is the expression of an American's basic right to choose. People vote for Mickey Mouse. If they want to vote for Nader, I'm big enough to say, so fucking what?
Nader did not 'lose' an election for Gore. The SCOTUS stole it. PERIOD. Asterisk.
*Instead of attacking Nader, fight to have the SCOTUS bastards that shit on their skirts removed from office.
It's probably wise for Kerry to play down any expectation that the U.S. should do much internationally besides apologize abjectly for around 20 years. It sucks, but that's the "deck of cards" Bush has dealt him. . .
I just got back from a tour abroad that included some real-deal, Republican, shit-kicking farmer types from upstate NY. The Bush delusion that we should try to remake the world in our image is a real turn-off for these people. This hurts him with his base as much as his fiscal profligacy.
The thing I was struck by in that interview is Kerry's knowledge and specifics in each country and each case.
Can anyone, ANYONE, imagine Bush giving such an interview?
Bush is all rhetoric. The same crap over and over again. No specifics, just canned phrases, "Freedom, National Security, Bring it on," blah blah blah.
I think it's very striking how intelligent Kerry is compared to Bush.
I can't wait for the debate.
What Kerry is doing is diabolical. He's sharp on matters of national security and foreign policy. He needs to keep this up.
kerrys taken a good position..
Bush can eat shit from a dumpster.
To those people who rightly point out that it was SCOTUS that gave the election to * and not Nader, you don't take into consideration one major point.
We will never know the number of democratic leaning voters stayed home because Nader kept insisting that there was no difference between the major parties. Or the number of those who pulled the lever for * because if there is no difference why not vote for the one you would prefer to have a beer with.
It is in these two categories that Nader cost us the election--not his timy 5%. If the election had not been so close SCOTUS would not have dared tried its act of treason that gave the (s)election to Bush. As seems to always be the case doom starts with a lie.
"I can't go along with that. Toilet paper is useful."
Yeha, using Atlas Shrugged like that would probably also give you a really bad rash.
Old Hat writes:
Remember after the ranty section of Gore speech when he said that Kerry shouldn't have a plan for Iraq right now because it's in such a state of flux? I agree with him. Kerry's got to play this by ear. It's wrongheaded and foolish to have a drop dead get-out-of-Iraq date as so much of the left wing is calling for.
If the public can't be included in a discussion about Iraq policy then what use is democracy?
The Kerry interview is one more indication that there are broad areas--now the entire realm of foreign police--of agreement between the republicans and the democrats.
Thanks, Kerry, for making it easier.
If you're against war and military aggression, only a Nader vote allows one to look in the mirror the day after the election.
Ha, an excerpt from the interview Bush gave the Christian media,with only one change: "I think what we're dealing with,” [Iraqis] said, “are people -- extreme, radical people -- who've got a deep desire to spread an ideology that is anti-women, anti-free thought, anti-art and science, you know, that couch their language in religious terms. But that doesn't make them religious people. I think they conveniently use religion to kill. The religion I know is not one that encourages killing. I think that they want to drive us out of parts of the world so they're better able to have a base from which to operate.”
And who is this Father Richard Neusner that Bush keeps talking about, who he says has shaped his views on abortion, etc.?
If you're against war and military aggression, only a Nader vote allows one to look in the mirror the day after the election.
Elias Vlanton
Pass through the mirror, don't you mean?
I dunno, is it right wing to say that you'll clean up your own backyard before you worry about everyone else's?
Welcome to up-is-down world, Senator Kerry.
"It is in these two categories that Nader cost us the election--not his timy 5%. If the election had not been so close SCOTUS would not have dared tried its act of treason that gave the (s)election to Bush. As seems to always be the case doom starts with a lie.
knaderknot"
No, Al Gore's brown suits cost us the election! No, Bill Clinton's refusal to campaign cost us the election! No, the Diebold scandal, then unknown, stole tens of thousands of votes in several close states. No, the conjunction of the Moon and Mars caused it.
Fact is, there is very little that differentiates CORPORATE Dems from CORPORATE Reps, and that's obvious NOW looking at Gore's running mate, eh? Oh, and kicking Nader out of the debates is what cost the Dems the support of most Naderites. It was disrespectful, and stupid, since Nader would certainly have busted Bushliar in the chops while Gore could have stood by with feathers in his mouth.
Attacking a minor player like Nader, and attempting to blame him for a concerted 30-year coup by THIS SPECIFIC GROUP OF BASTARDS is absurd. People vote for whom they vote, and very little of that matters, regrettably. We are STILL in the midst of a vote coup situation, and we probably will be, absent impeachment or resignation.
Impeachment or resignation should be where the attack Nader people put their energies, not scapegoating the Left. That we had a coup is undeniable, and that gives everyone else a pass.
I'm a lifelong Liberal Dem, and I vote the ticket.
If you're against war and military aggression, only a Nader vote allows one to look in the mirror the day after the election.
Indeed. Can we really ask Nader voters to sully their ideals by voting for a candidate with a rating of "96" from the League of Conservation Voters, in order to depose a president who's been given a rating of zero from the same group? Apparently not...they must follow their conscience wherever it leads, and upswings in childhood asthma be damned.
I have a name for a concern with personal rectitude that excludes concerns for the world outside oneself, and that is vanity.
In short, go fuck yourself. And by the way, a vote for Kucinich accomplishes the same thing...isn't it funny how the Naderbots conveniently forget that?
I wouldn't vote for Nader if he were running unopposed.
I would not mind if my gasoline was a tad radioactive. Dick Cheny to GWB after latest Saudi attack
"I have a name for a concern with personal rectitude that excludes concerns for the world outside oneself, and that is vanity."
That's pretty funny when you consider that what is the sticking point is Kerry's willingness to sign onto the Iraq disaster, and to support Sharon at every step.
In short, go fuck yourself, Phil.
"Indeed. Can we really ask Nader voters to sully their ideals by voting for a candidate with a rating of "96" from the League of Conservation Voters, in order to depose a president who's been given a rating of zero from the same group?"
"Apparently not...they must follow their conscience wherever it leads, and upswings in childhood asthma be damned."
Kerry's support of NAFTA and the WTO endorses the export to industrial pollution to the rest of the world. If a few less children here have asthma here (itself a questionable point given the poor Clinton-Gore record), they have been replaced by children in Mexico, Cambodia, and every other country whose environment is being destroyed by these agreements.
Do a google search on Torricelli (an avid Gore supporter) and Costa Rica and read about the rapacious environmental destruction wreaked by someone with a high League of Conservation Voters record. The LCV is just a pro-Democratic Party front, which places support of the party above substantive environmental change.
"Can we really ask Nader voters to sully their ideals by voting for a candidate with a rating of "96" from the League of Conservation Voters, in order to depose a president"
Depose? Depose a traitor by impeachment.
'Nader voters' are not, and have not been, the problem. They are an alternative voice about the solution.
The Democratic party didn't just hop into Kerry's lap. He presumes that his lazy support for Bush's evil policies is enough opposition to earn votes on the fringes of the party. WRONG.
He may get those votes, unearned, because of fear of the alternatives. But this haughty 'blame-the-Left' approach is so far from valid it stinks like Bush's Depends on 11 Sep 01.
Depose? Depose a traitor by impeachment.
Yeah, buddy. I'll get right on that...right after I'm done raising the minimum wage and pulling troops out of Iraq.
Nader voters are the "problem," to me, so long as they continue to pretend that reveling in personal vanity is a mark of moral distinction. Whether they vote for Nader is their own business. But when they want to strut around acting like arbiters of political morality, I think it's perfectly fair to point out their smugness, their incoherence, and their hypocrisy.
I don't like Nader, I don't like his supporters, and if I were going to throw my vote away it'd go to Kucinich--a man whom I actually admire.
BTW, being an "alternative voice" and being "a problem" are by no means mutually exclusive. Naderbots prove this every time they open their mouths.
That's pretty funny when you consider that what is the sticking point is Kerry's willingness to sign onto the Iraq disaster, and to support Sharon at every step.
In short, go fuck yourself, Phil.
Hey Paul, thanks for that brainless, "pretty funny" non sequitur about the "sticking point." Re-read it, and you might notice that it makes no logical sense whatsoever as a response to what I said.
Meanwhile, the "willingness" about which you're whining is a mere supposition. The "support" you're worried about may or may not materialize, and could play out in a number of ways. Sharon may well be out of office before the elections, for all we know.
Whatever else happens, though, the alternative to Kerry is Bush, who is a known quantity.
You're welcome to your opinions, as is Elias. They don't impress me. But I'm willing to revise my opinions if necessary.
Check back with me after you've impeached Bush...OK, tough guy?
That's pretty funny when you consider that what is the sticking point is Kerry's willingness to sign onto the Iraq disaster, and to support Sharon at every step.
In short, go fuck yourself, Phil.
Hey Paul, thanks for that brainless, "pretty funny" non sequitur about the "sticking point." Re-read it, and you might notice that it makes no logical sense whatsoever as a response to what I said.
Meanwhile, the "willingness" about which you're whining is a mere supposition. The "support" you're worried about may or may not materialize, and could play out in a number of ways. Sharon may well be out of office before the elections, for all we know.
Whatever else happens, though, the alternative to Kerry is Bush, who is a known quantity.
You're welcome to your opinions, as is Elias. They don't impress me. But I'm willing to revise my opinions if necessary.
Check back with me after you've impeached Bush...OK, tough guy?
I'd hope that by now, this thread is completely deserted. But just in case it isn't, here's a simplified argument for Elias and Paul, minus the ill temper and ad hominem.
Elias began by saying that if you're against war, the only way you'll be able to look yourself in the mirror is by voting for Nader.
Not true at all. In the first place, Kucinich's position on the war is the equal of Nader's. And as I said, I think it's funny that Nader people so often like to pretend Kucinich doesn't exist, just like Elias did. (You can also write in anyone you choose, of course. After all, the point isn't getting someone elected, it's maintaining one's moral integrity.)
Second, there are good, honest, morally aware, and caring people who will vote Kerry, and will do so with a clear conscience. For Elias to imply that anyone who votes Kerry is a moral outcast or a hypocrite is both inaccurate and insulting. This is the Naderites' besetting sin, and it bothers me much more than their potential effect on this election, which I think will be negligible.
Re: Elias' argument about Torricelli and so forth, Kerry is neither a savior nor a cure-all. The people of Costa Rica should not have their environment despoiled by the USA, and if Kerry doesn't prevent that from happening, that's very bad. But people in America's ghettos and factory towns have a right to cleaner air, too. If Kerry restores the lower EPA tolerances for heavy metals, which Bush discarded, a certain number of people in the world will be better off. And there's good reason to assume Kerry will do just that.
The moral calculus is simple: Either Kerry or Bush will win. If there is a SINGLE instance in which Kerry would reduce the amount of human misery in the world, while Bush would increase it, then Kerry is the logical choice. If they're equally bad in every respect but one, you choose the person who's better.
Example: Bush has cut off funding for AIDS prevention and birth-control programs worldwide, and in so doing, has increased the volume of misery in the world. If Kerry reinstates those funds, and supports those programs, he should be elected even if all his other policies were IDENTICAL to Bush's.
Unless someone can convince me that Kerry's policies will bring MORE misery to the world than Bush's, I'm obligated to vote for him.
If you don't agree, fine. Vote for whomever you please.
"I'd hope that by now, this thread is completely deserted. But just in case it isn't, here's a simplified argument for Elias and Paul, minus the ill temper and ad hominem."
Which YOU started, Phil. Is it too much to ask that you actually recall your OWN statement, turned around so you could see how unfair it was?
"I have a name for a concern with personal rectitude that excludes concerns for the world outside oneself, and that is vanity.
In short, go fuck yourself." --Phil., showing how the ad hominem is applied.
Excluding concerns is not what Leftists do. They actually include dramatically more concerns than mainline Dems like Kerry. That's the main problem with the Leftist worldview...it doesn't simplify for the sake of politics, though statements that diverge from corporate party line are seen as 'simplistic.'
It is the VANITY of the corporate Dem party to imagine that only they can navigate the complexities of kissing the ring of power, and doing NOTHING about an obvious anti-American coup.
"We must use our new technologies to the fullest." John Kerry, regurgitating what passes for insight among the corpo-Dems.
Which YOU started, Phil. Is it too much to ask that you actually recall your OWN statement, turned around so you could see how unfair it was?
Well, I'll get right back to ill temper, I guess, since you read about as poorly as you think.
My statement, which you quoted, referred to MY OWN ill temper and ad hominem. Got that? I was acknowledging it, and repudiating it.
What a waste of time THAT was. I'm done with you.
"Got that? I was acknowledging it, and repudiating it."
Big of you.
"What a waste of time THAT was. I'm done with you.
Philalethes"
Sarcasm is a fine art. While you're busily downing the Leftists for having a different form of political response than you, you were I guess lampooning yourself? Why bother? Either you think people who support Nader are enemies of the Republic or you don't. If you don't, then name-calling is an odd sense of humor. 'Nader Bots.' That's just an ad hominem attack on people who don't as easily sell out their conscience for politics. I feel for them.
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