I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Fan-freaking-tastic!
More of this!
Beautiful.
What are the odds your average gay-bashing Vermonter got past the 2nd paragraph? WE read the whole thing, praising that fine lady all the way. (I think mebbe the newspaper editor did, too)
You know what "they" did.
Wow, that about sums it all up? I hope that woman's son has gone on to have a happy life.
what can i say? it gave me goosebumps. amazing and powerful.
It's amazing how many justify their beliefs behind "God." I read the Bible as a child and I don't remember reading that being "self-righteous" is just. I can only hope that this mentality will go the way of those who in the 60's who supported segregaton. I always wondered where my father stood on the issue of civil rights. He died in 1979. But you can bet if my children ask me how I felt as gays finally received their due, I'll proudly tell them I supported them fully.
Wow, what a great letter! Another title could be.."A letter to George Bush voters". Thank goodness that young man has a mother like that.
Best thing I've read in a long, long time.
No force on earth is more powerful than a loving mother protecting her child.
now that was good.
now that was good.
Powerful. Damn powerful. That's all I can say about it.
Now THAT is moral indignation. Bless her for her ability to find the words the courage to say them.
Goober, you're of course right about the staunch. But consider the silent majority who are either afraid to say the same things publically or have been waiting for someone to articulate what they've not been able to!
This letter is long for a letter to the editor. My guess is the editor realized there was more sense in this letter than 99.9% of the drivel they have to read looking for something to fill the column inches.
I can only add, Amen.
Far fuckin' out, man. Never, EVER mess with a momma when you put one of her kids in danger. Powerful stuff.
I'm constantly amazed that there are still people who think people "choose" to be gay. Okay, sure, maybe you choose to not live in the closet and deny what you are, but actually choosing to be gay? Choosing to be considered a genetic mistake at best or, at worst, the spawn of Satan hellbent on tearing down American society? People don't make that choice. Best I can figure, they just realize they're gay. I never chose to be heterosexual. I just am, and beyond that, it means nothing.
I honestly believe guys go through that questioning phase in their life. They ask "Am I gay?"
Some say, "No...no I'm not." And they get on with enjoying life.
Some say, "Yes...I do believe I am." And they try to get on with enjoying life as much as this society will let them.
There's a few, however, who say, "I DON'T WANT TO THINK ABOUT IT!" and go on to a soul-wrenching life of fag bashing.
Don't ask me to explain it.
Yikes.Now THERE'S a patriot.
Holy Christ, that fucking kicks ass!
Good for her.
What are the odds your average gay-bashing Vermonter got past the 2nd paragraph?
Doesn't matter. Although our state was opposed to CUs by more than 2:1, our leg courageously passed the CU bill and Dean signed it. And all the plagues and wrath of God and stuff (no joke) the anti-fag bigots threatened us with never happened, and we move along our merry way. Same thing will happen in MA, and eventually the rest of the country. That said, we can't be as complacent as anti-slavery people were at the founding of the republic--inevitability doesn't obviate the need for vigilance and hard work on the part of those who are in the moral right. We can thank people like Sharon Underwood for keeping the fire lit.
This should be edited into a thirty second TV and radio ad. Just a shot of a mother talking. It should be run during sports programming and news shows. If someone wanted to raise the money for the ads, I'd kick in huge.
That is one great letter. Sadly, religon has become the jack-boot that endless stomps the face of humanity -- and that, my friends, is the true perversion.
Wow! Can't believe there's a letter from my local paper on Atrios. Wonders never cease.
She really brings out the fact that the fake "Christians" are filled with hate. They are a disgrace to Christianity.
The fake Christians say that homosexuality is a sin, that it's a choice and that it is a temptation that must be resisted. I would like to ask them if they actually consider gay sex a temptation. If so then they are gay and they would be a lot happier if they just acknowledged the fact.
Yeah! I just stood up and saluted because I didn't know what else to do. Now THAT'S a mother!
Very cool, and forwarded to many. Thanks!
I clicked on the link and read some of the comments to the posting there. Typically, the haters doubt the letter's "authenticity."
Sad.
Give this woman a prize, a job, whatever she wants or needs - she nails it.
Also whatever happened to that whole "judge not lest ye be judged" thing?
thanks Atrios
That letter is perfect. Just so perfect.
Remember this people. We have right on our side. The religious right tries to play up this "we are moral" stance, but remember this..
They are the biggest group of immoral fucks on the face of the planet.
From Robertson and his diamond mines, to Bennett and his gambling problems, Falwell and his fraud..
A bigger bunch of immoral fucks you will not find.
Go read the comments on LGF or FR sometime. These people pretend to be on the moral highroad. They're evil little fascists, is what they are.
The faux morality is just to hide their immorality.
I'm in tears. Literally, in tears. What an incredible letter, what a beautiful letter, what a powerful letter. Thank you so much for posting it.
aimai
"I can only tell you, with absolute certainty, that it is inborn."
Has the 'nature or nurture' question, in regard to sexual preference, ever been answered?
No doubts, either, as to why her son did not commit suicide, after working on that note for so long. Now, that's a Mother.
F Carlson: Yeah, it's good to remember that not all religious folks have drunk the Preacher's Kool-Aid. Or at least they didn't swallow..
J E Powell: Hell of an idea. Is this something MoveOn could get behind? Assuming we got behind them.
Awesome letter. That's white-hot truth. Liars can't handle it. Good for her and good for all of us.
One of my kin was gay in a closet all his life; being forced to psychiatric hospitals in the military during the 1940s, being forced to see doctors; being denied learning to know his younger family members. After his death, I found these diary notes which told about his despair, his immense, bottomless suffering. Essentially, his life was totally destroyed by others. He was a sensitive, good man, and though he died many years ago I'm still filled with such a rage at all these sanctimonious little shits who never gave half of their monthly salary to support a distant relative, who never rescued animals from the garbage dump, who never gave anonymously all the money someone needed for graduate school. My relative did all this, and so much more for Aids support and countless other projects. Yet they made him hate himself.
Notice how many prominent pro-family fucks don't even have families (i.e. Ann Coulter--bitch is 43, never married, no kids; and Pat Buchanan--only child is illegitimate, and other than paying off the mother, he never sees him or her). Then there is thrice-married, childless, drug-addicted Rush Limbaugh (probably gay himself, if you believe the rumors). I guess being "pro-family" provides an excellent cover for wingers.
Powerful points. Thank you.
OT: Google search "war trophy".
Bush keeps Saddam's pistol as war trophy - Minneapolis Star Tribune
(In Homepage)
A popular theme in your letters is that Vermont has been infiltrated by outsiders. Both sides of my family have lived in Vermont for generations. I am heart and soul a Vermonter, so I'll thank you to stop saying that you are speaking for "true Vermonters."
Outsiders?
Last time I checked you didn't have to have an internal passport to travel within the United States.
Does this mean that "outsiders" from small town/suburban America who move to New York/San Francisco/Seattle etc. and vote Republican should have their votes discounted because they're not "true" urbanites?
Hey wait. That's a good idea.
I'm cutting and pasting that one onto the hard drive.
Can we get this lady to be a guest on Hannity and colmes, or maybe O'Reilly? I would love to see those big brave men try and put her in her place.
Thanks, Atrios. If only the Valley News in WRJ and Hanover website had a way to go back in its archives (http://www.vnews.com). Not only would we see that powerful letter, but many, many more.
Yes, there was the debate about Civil Unions going on at the time, but the actions of one of the local churches was fuel for hundreds of letters to the editors. That Congregational church, in Thetford, Vermont, chose to reach out and embrace the gay community. That decision brought many attacks, but it also brought out of the woodwork a huge number of supporters who also wrote very powerful letters.
How strange that we would have to use the term brave to describe a church that went out of its way to be inclusive.
Reason 752 why I'm a Democrat. I just can suffer the haters.
Jake
gary - no, it hasn't, at least not to my satisfaction. But that's beside the point.
The point really should be that we live in a country where we are guaranteed the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. None of those are to be restricted unless they infringe upon the rights of others for life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Unless the bigots can prove that gays are in some way physically harming them or destroying or devaluing their property, they have no point worthy of legal consideration.
No force on earth is more powerful than a loving mother protecting her child.
The way my mom always used to phrase this sentiment was, "I've always turned into a tigress protecting her young, whenever anyone dares to attack a child of mine."
And when you read this gem of a letter, you can hear and feel the rhythm, building up to the mighty roar of a tigress, with righteousness on her side. Reminds me of listening to MLK. This is how to channel righteous anger productively.
The parents of gay kids are the ones who will change this country's point of view on the issue.
I would like to see this lady reading her letter aloud on television... in a PSA perhaps.
What better way to make Bush hurt every time he brings up his proposed "Marriage Amendment"?
Best letter to the editor EVER.
"No force on earth is more powerful than a loving mother protecting her child.
David Ehrenstein"
Indeed, that seems to be the method by which Harry Potter is protected by the evil republican Voldemort.
Great letter, BTW, more of those.
er...from the evil republican Voldemort
Has the 'nature or nurture' question, in regard to sexual preference, ever been answered?
gary
I happily count dozens of gays and lesbians among my close, personal friends, and my purely unscientific answer to that question is that they are absolutely born that way. But ultimately, what does it matter? Finding a "cause" would only give these self-righteous S.O.B.'s a reason to go looking for a "cure". They just are, they same as heterosexuals just are, and they sould be accepted on the same terms.
This woman's letter made me tear up. The world needs a lot more like her.
Yes...it is really well written letter.
The ONLY change I'd make is the sentence:
"My 83-year-old father fought in some of the most horrific battles of World War II, was wounded and awarded the Purple Heart."
Because it calls forth a vision of
on 83-year-old out on the battlefields 
Now THAT'S a draft on steroids.
Otherwise though, it really was a thoughful, well written letter.
Why am I not surprised?
Although Sharon Underwood is well endowed with the gift of words and does an astonishing job of eloquently stating the fact and purpose of her response, it unfortunately fell on deaf ears.
Unless there is a perceived "punishment" for one's actions, the Republicans have free-rein to do as they damn well please because nothing is going to happen to them. So what that they were cruel to her son. So they beat him up. So they called him names. The fact that they "got" to her son and her was their reward, as silly as it sounds.
The real sin is that the religious right has commadereed the principles of the Constitution. They have draw up the exceptions and have decided who really needs protection and who does not.
It may not be too far off in the future that Democrats and other ilk the Republicans find offensive will loose the right to vote, hold office, and so forth. Ms. Underwoods' dance with the devil was only just a precursor to the Ball from Hell. They were doing nothing more than testing the waters to see what they could get away with.
The real fact is that the court system is too bogged down to deal with this kind of cruelity committed at the base level of the population. The court system is not the court of judgement on people's moral values.
Perhaps, if Kerry wins in November, he should seriously reconsider openning up interment camps for registered Republicans and their henchmen, such as the one's that persecuted Ms. Underwood and her son.
regards
.
I think I'll print a copy of this letter and keep it in my purse, just so I can fish it out and hand it to the next person I hear doing any gay bashing.
For SURE I'm going to make my 12-yr-old nephew (and his mother) read it.
>I clicked on the link and read some of the comments to the posting there. Typically, the haters doubt the letter's "authenticity."
Typical right winger reply-
'Kill the messenger'!!
Sharon Underwood /me bows
Bravo
just had a good friend get "born again." she was driving down the street and the "holy spirit" entered her body (this is the same woman who claimed to have grown up in a haunted house). she ended up hooking up with a crew of hardcore jesus folk in portland oregon. she is no longer the woman i knew. she now denounces "homosexuality" as a perversion and spews the same hate filled rhetoric as the rest of the religious right. when pressed on her beliefs (i have been reading the bible significantly longer than she has) she became angry and fell back on the "since i haven't recieved the holy spirit the bible doesn't reveal itself to me" defense. or the "holy spirit secret decoder ring defense" as i have dubbed it.
she claims to not belong to a specific sect but somebody has filled her head with these notions. anybody have an idea as to what christian sect holds to literal bible translation and a fundamental belief in the "holy spirit as bible translator?" is there a modern christian movement that is fundamentalist in nature and perhaps has a presence in the pacific northwest?
Has the 'nature or nurture' question, in regard to sexual preference, ever been answered?
Do you have kids? If you do then you surely have noticed that almost everything about them has been with them from the start - their moods, their curiosity, how they walk, how they pick at their food, whether they like ghost stories - everything. All you can do as a parent is help them focus their talents, overcome their fears, and deal with a world that is beautiful, dangerous, heartbreaking, wonderful. To think that something so basic as sexuality has its cause in dysfunctional parenting is laughable (and way too flattering to the parental sense of power); to suggest that sexuality is a choice is freaking nuts.
Because it calls forth a vision of
on 83-year-old out on the battlefields Now THAT'S a draft on steroids.
'course, people were tougher back then. Reminds me of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch for some reason...
"We had to get up at 10 o'clock at night, half an hour before we went to bed..."
Has the 'nature or nurture' question, in regard to sexual preference, ever been answered?
Yes.
Backslider - I knew I liked you for a reason.
Truly a great letter. It's heartbreaking to read of young people contemplating suicide because of shitty treatment by other kids. Thank God that this one had such a wonderful, loving mom.
Thanks for posting that great letter, Atrios.
Ntodd,
It's the hair, isn't it. Everyone loves the hair. Except my brother. He complains it keeps cloggin' up the drain.
Sharon Underwood, you are one righteous mamma!
What an amazing, beautiful, eloquent and heartbreaking letter. Thank you, Atrios, for posting it and giving us a jolt we need.
one thing i have never understood in this debate is why it matters if being gay is a choice? why is it any of our business what other people are doing?
given that there has been evidence of homosexual activity in animals, i dont even understand why it is a question that is probably isnt a choice.
i wish that at the end of that x-men movie, the just put up a screen that says this is about gay people stupid. and black people, and whoever else you want to hate. the nascar crowd doesnt understand subtlety.
It's the hair, isn't it. Everyone loves the hair.
Yes...I mean, no. Ahhh!!!
Can she be Vice President? Huh? Can she? Oh please, please, pretty please???
Wouldn't it be amazing if the all the citizens of America practiced what they preach and really did treat everyone with respect, but thats why we have conservatism, so our world will never be free of prejudice and bigotry.
PEACE!
ABB&B!!!
One of the best arguments against Nader I've heard in a long time.
The fetal development theory makes sense to me. Remember that each of us grows from a small group of cells, hour by hour, day by day, from what's available in the mother's system, according to an inborn schedule. Nutrition and stress have their effects. Remember also that each of us starts out basically female, and those with XY chromosomes get doses of hormones to customize the chassis in a masculine direction. Some farther than others. (There's no ideal state of development, just a range of results that work.) Maybe the development timeline is affected by genetics, but development is where it all happens.
The fetal development theory makes sense to me. Remember that each of us grows from a small group of cells, hour by hour, day by day, from what's available in the mother's system, according to an inborn schedule. Nutrition and stress have their effects.
We can debate nature vs. nurture all we want.
But a good percentage of the people who oppose gay marriage are fundamentalist Christians who think the world is 6000 years old and that a man in a white beard created it in 7 days.
So what good would any scientific evidence that sexual orientation is genetic do in a debate with them?
A great letter, and my first thought? This needs to be a prime-time speech at the DNC convention in Boston. Face the gay issue head-on. A mother anguished over her son? Wow.
Will it happen? I'm not holding my breath.
my ex husband is bi-sexual, messed up, confused, trans-gendered/trans-vestite...his core identity was torn asunder by family abuse of all sorts, and his family were "good christians"
but then there are people like my nephew who was totally born gay, we all knew it by the time he was TWO, he was drawn toward things female, he played with hand bags and so when at age 17 he told us that he craved something, also feminine, like affection from men, we were all like "yeah, we thoughts so all along" no big deal...
my point is that neither one of these people had a choice....if there are people out there who choose to be gay to rebel or cause trouble or for god only knows....then yes shame on them but i doubt that there are many.
Now, that is an american hero!
Now, that is an american hero!
Beautiful post, atrios! Nothing to add to the eloquence of this mother ..
Do you think the Democrats will avoid the gay issue at the convention? I'm wondering if they will be afraid to touch it.
can someone please forward a copy of this letter to my dad? thanks!
Has anyone sent this to Sully yet?
Hmmmm. 4 years down the road, a Mother and her Gay son side by side on the podium at the DNC.
Frankly, the Dems probably have too much on their plate as it is, and I doubt they'd do it anyway, vote-conscious as they are. Nobody wants to piss of the Churches.
Why is that?
Have scientists figured out if homophobic, hatred is inherited or learned?
"Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, so you do unto me."
Why don't the religious fanatics ever get to the good stuff in the bible and always get stuck in the Book of Doodoo-all-to-me and the Book of Livid-cuss?
Sharon Underwood, I salute you. That letter burns white hot with righteousness. What a powerful, powerful piece of writing. Thank you, Atrios for printing that.
I too have been unfairly punished for a love I did not elect!
My sons a fag - did you know?
Boy is he gonna be pissed off at the
fundamentalist Christians next time he looks in on Earth!
I clicked on the link and read some of the comments to the posting there. Typically, the haters doubt the letter's "authenticity."
Truly sad. Tragically, this isn't even one woman's story. It's the story of a whole section of the population.
These are the same people who swallow the NRO's "authentic" gossip whole anyhow.
The letter brought tears to my eyes. It should be reprinted everywhere.
"The parents of gay kids are the ones who will change this country's point of view on the issue."
Well, not necessarily. I won't expect to hear from Phyllis Schlafley, Randall Terry, Dick Cheney...
I know I'm leaving a few others out, can somebody refresh my memory?
AMEN
When will the U S erect a monument in D.C. honoring the countless victims of this country's hate crimes? Apparently only those who suffer and die to preserve corporate capitalism are deemed worthy of remembrance.
Just chimin' in to say I was moved to tears, too. Powerful writing.
When will the U S erect a monument in D.C. honoring the countless victims of this country's hate crimes?
There's a monument to the Japanese Americans interred during the Second World War near the Capitol and, of course, the Holocaust Museum.
But a lynching memorial might work, something along the lines of the Vietnam memorial listing the names of every person lynched to the present date.
cereal breath,
your friend sounds like she's fallen in with a Phelps wannabe cowd.
At the funeral of gay murder victim Matthew Shepard, they held up signs reading "No Fags in Heaven" and "God Hates Fags." According to their Web site, they have staged "20,000" protests across the nation and around the world in the last decade.
Virulently homophobic, the Westboro Baptist Church has picketed the gay community at hundreds of events nationwide. Many of its fliers emphasize the race or religion of these individuals.
They believe that "God's hatred is one of His holy attributes." They are the congregants of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas.
Incorporated in 1967 as a not-for-profit organization, the virulently homophobic Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) considers itself an "Old School (or, Primitive)" Baptist Church. The Church is led by the septuagenarian Reverend Fred Waldron Phelps Sr., and many WBC congregants are related to Phelps by blood. His wife, several of his children and dozens of his grandchildren frequent the church.
The haters worship a Jesus who is completely unrecognizable to me. I can't imagine how they can have so much hate and call themsevlves Christian.
Today, I found an essay on why Jesus loves war at a Baptist site. It's as if Christianity has been turned upside down.
I was once a born-again Christian. I dated a born-again Christian who ironically became my first lover. We hung around fellow Christians and went to church every Sunday. We read the bible and attended bible studies.
As with many first-time relationships, mine ended. Not one of those from that Christ-"loving" community ever asked if I was okay, not one called or tried to keep in touch with me. I was fortunate enough to have friends who supported me through it and have remained friends and integral parts of my life. The fact that many of them were gay only meant that they indeed showed me that "they will know that we are Christians by our love."
This January, a group of us celebrated the life of my best friend from that time, a gay man who died from an undiagnosed illness . He had HIV and the hospital staff and his doctors dismissed our entreaties to find out what was wrong with him after inital tests for various diseases came back negative; they kept referring to the fact that he was HIV positive and that there was nothing they could do. The hospital was a Catholic one in the heart of downtown Toronto serving the gay community almost exclusively due to their geographical proximity. In the end, they discounted his partner's rights and contacted his mother in Brazil (whom he had not seen in over 20 years); she gave the DNR order (Do Not Resuscitate). He was 36.
I am now a died-again Christian.
OT
Help! I can't find Woot's latest John Kerry Boobies. It says bandwidth exceeded when I try to access it. Does anyone know another url?
Wow, Mrs. Underwood, you have my utmost respect! That is one of the most impressive letters to the editor I've ever read.
Wowza. Congratulations on finding a letter that really says it all in this situation.
What a loving, empathetic woman. Not all mothers, obviously, love their children enough to support them, no matter what. As much as they both have suffered, he knows that he will always have her love and support. To be less accepting has to constitute betrayal of the worst kind. Despite what a few bigots say, he's one of the luckier ones.
I hope that, one day, he will be able to laugh at the ignorance and find some peace and happiness, which is out of reach for the fundies, poor slobs.
Don't ask. Don't tell. I like homosexuals. They are good people, but the army is not there to fight social issues, but wars.
"You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!"
from, of all people, Oscar Hammerstein II.
patriotboy wrote ....
"The haters worship a Jesus who is completely unrecognizable to me. I can't imagine how they can have so much hate and call themsevlves Christian. "
Welcome to George Bush's Voter Base! I read the clips from the site you posted and must agree with you..this is not the Jesus or God I was brought up to believe in.
It's this perverted religious base that has re-invented God and Jesus to support their views. For example, if you research Christian religion, you may be surprised to discover that Jesus was substitute for God at the turn of the 19th to 20th century. Prior to that, hardly anyone celebrated Christmas. Furthermore, until the advent of commericalization in the 20th century, Christmas gifts, cards and holidays did not exist. Finally, almost all the founding fathers to the constitution were Deist...the belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation. The religious zealots can't have handle this.
So now we have some renegade christians hell-bent on re-writing the Bible, the Constitution, and the Commandments to suit their religious designs for the world.
It's this religious zealotry that drove those kids and people to harass Ms Underwoods' son and family to the brink of pure living Hell!
regards
.
If Mommy hadn't been a castrating shrew, this kid wouldn't have turned to cock.
Bush Aims to Change the Culture
Have you people seen this? Matt Stoller has a link to an interview Bush gave last week to a group of Christian editors:
http://www.bopnews.com/archives/
...788.html#000788
The inteview appears in Christianity Today online:
http://www.christianitytoday.com...4/121/
51.0.html
This man never ceases to dumbfound me. And just when I think he can't possibly say anything more audacious (or stupider, or more callow, or more arrogant, etc.), he opens his mouth, and out it comes.
The interview is broader than just the gay issue, of course, but this is as good a place as any to spread the word. He says his job as president is to change cultures. And that means you. And me.
Thanks for printing this. In his book Civil Wars, David Moats mentions this piece and his regret at not running it in the Rutland Herald during the debate over Civil Unions in VT. I'm glad to finally see it.
Muad-Dib, the funniest thing is that the Bible as we (fundies and not) know it has gone through innumerable translations: as opposed to the Torah in Hebrew and the Qu'ran in Arabic, the Bible is in everyone's language.
Which means that quoting it as literal truth cheerfully omits what subtleties and deeper meanings have been lost in the very many translations.
My paper, my hometown, pride; big time-
Thanx-
pbg, that in turn reminds me of Tom Lehrer's 'National Brotherhood Week' as taught me by a fellow-student who couldn't sing for toffee...
The Phelps family used to fill me with outrage until I read a bio on Fred Phelps. (I don't remember its title or authors) I wasn't surprised to learn he was a total moral hypocrite, but I was shocked by just how despicable he was-about the only thing he wasn't guilty of is murder. His family is a dysfunctional mess, and the impression I get is these pickets are some kind of family activity, in addition to being a pathetic plea for attention. So now they just seem pitiful to me. I can't imagine what they'll do when that horrible geezer kicks the bucket-probably takes turns guarding his grave to keep people from pissing on it. (A 24/7 job, I'd imagine.)
This letter needs to be reprinted frequently.
A lot of conservatives couldn't care less about a person's sexual orientation, gay bashing is just a tool for them to get control and, most importantly, get the money. If it was Albanians they could bash to do it we'd be hearing all about the Albanian agenda and hear tales of child abductions, murders, etc. You know, the blood libel made relevant for today.
As for the ones who really do hate gay people. They'll stop at nothing. They're the ones the conservatives would sacrifice us for as long as it puts the likes of Bush in the Oval Office. They're all dangerous in their own ways.
My thanks go to this Vermont woman and her family.
what a wonderful, sad, wise, beautiful letter.
. I can't imagine what they'll do when that horrible geezer kicks the bucket-probably takes turns guarding his grave to keep people from pissing on it. (A 24/7 job, I'd imagine.)
Bill S
Great idea. I'll be planning my first and only trip to Kansas when he buys it.
TheaLogie, I think that song is from the musical "South Pacific."
gotta communicate it, gently, to the wingers. repeat! gotta communicate it, gently, to the wingers. it's not like preaching to the choir. it's not even preaching at all. it's wandering around, thinking and even breathing like a winger, and communicating, just like that, communicating ideas that just might sink in, as long as they're not presented as being, you know, weird, un-American, in-tuh-lek-chul.
Bill S.,
Do ya mean "Addicted To Hate" by Jon Michael Bell with Joe Taschler and Steve Fry? If not, read it. It is enlightening. Phelps, even without the virulent homophobia and hate mongering, is an ammoral scumbag who gives not only preachers and lawyers but human beings a bad name.
Link:
http://tinyurl.com/yv23e
Bill S - I think this is the article about Phelps you mentioned. It was never published but became public in a lawsuit. It's well worth a read.
Great minds, patriotboy. Keep this up, and I'll see to it you make a patriotman before too long.
It's a great article, Backslider.
This was a very emotional read.
And it is a shame that it is necessary at all to write such a letter.
My mind boggles every time I think about the two kinds of Americans. Many are progressive, tolerant, hm, modern, civilized - hope can understanbd it better than i can express it.
And the others are just ... ugly. frightening. People I would rather associate with the Thirty Years War than the 21st century.
And I must admit that I do not understand this "free speech" thing, not when it comes to the extremes of spewing hate and propagating things that are clearly false. Frex here in Germany it is illegal to deny that the holocaust has happened, so technically we have less freedom of expression. But I donīt believe that is a loss.
Or, closer to the homophobia theme: When a known gay person was running for Mayor of Berlin, all the opposition would/could do was dragging the opposing candidates wife on stage every time he made a speech, and printing his whole family on his placards - and even this was regarded as very shallow and even tasteless.
Donīt get me wrong, I donīt want to brag about "our maturity".
I understand and really appreciate that the Americans (among others) did Germany a huge favor by killing off/discrediting the worst hypernationalistic/allophobic idiots and re-educating the remainder of the population. We *are* much better off for that.
But could you please do the same thing with the haters in your own country? It doesnīt have to be a full-blown civil war - even a short and ugly Reign of the Hater Dictator should do the trick, when the general, apolitical population starts to ask afterwards "Why did we ever appease these lying a**holes so much?" and accepts that there should be no Freedom to Hate.
Joerg
Bingo, Bill S.
Normally, I find OHII intolerable, starting from the day we had to sing "Climb Ev'ry Mountain" at school assembly. And he was one of te most right-wing guys ever to be associated with the musical theater. (How Richard Rodgers could have gone from the wonderful and witty Lorenz Hart to that walking tub of corn syrup is one of life's great mysteries.) But then there's this song...
BTW, a guitarist named Michael Johnson did the beat version of this song I've ever heard, back in the days of vinyl. Sharpened all the edges on this very dangerous little song.
This woman would eat Derbyshire for breakfast.
the Bible as we (fundies and not) know it has gone through innumerable translations
Yeah, like:
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)
Apparently just a matter of the Greek "kamilos" (rope) vs. "kamelos" (camel), but what's the difference?
But could you please do the same thing with the haters in your own country? It doesnīt have to be a full-blown civil war - even a short and ugly Reign of the Hater Dictator should do the trick, when the general, apolitical population starts to ask afterwards "Why did we ever appease these lying a**holes so much?" and accepts that there should be no Freedom to Hate.
Joerg
I'd like to avoid the ugly reign if it's all the same to everyone. In America it will be really ugly, have a smiling face and blue eyes. I used to think that Pat Robertson was it, Bauer was too scary, too much like that guy in M.
I've often wondered what Austria would be like today if it had been deNazified after the war.
I sent the following statement with the letter to my friends. This woman speaks to the heart of the human condition very eloquently. I felt moved enough to pass it on--something that rarely happens as I'm a total cynic when it comes to "feel good" email. I don't give a rat's rear parts if it's authentic or not. I wasn't going to send it to my religious friends, but then I thought how insulting that might be--as if they couldn't understand how a mother could feel for her son. Whether or not you agree with her conclusions regarding the religious aspects, certainly you can hear her words as a mother and as a human being. There's simply too much intolerance in this world.
I probably can hear her voice more clearly than most of you can, because one of my beautiful daughters was teased and called a lesbian all throughout high school because she was slightly "different." I won't tell you her name, but I will tell you that both of them are NOT lesbian, never HAD lesbian relationships, and have been in in one or more loving heterosexual relationships. One has three beautiful daughters, one is expecting her first. The more my daughter was hounded by the students, the more she withdrew into her circle of close female friends. Unfortunately, most of those abandoned her because they were afraid of being tainted with the title of "lesbian." She was finally left with one close friend, and the teasing was merciless for both of them.
Both my girls had few dates in high school, and I thought it was because they had other interests. But apparently it was because they wouldn't "put out," and apparently today's male high school subculture doesn't appreciate that. I never knew till recently that one the few "dates" I thought she had been on ended in a near rape. I could never understand the mentality of those students--especially the boys--she would have loved to been asked out on a true date. Several of the little bastards stood up and yelled, "Lesbian" when she went on stage to receive her diploma. A lot of the girls snickered. They must have known she was not lesbian. Why do something so cruel? I can remember being teased and called "Tomboy" and "Horse-Nut" because I wasn't interested in boys or dating, only horses and reading--but never would I have dreamed that both my daughers--who dressed more feminine than I and wore makeup--something I didn't do till thirty and still seldom do--would be on the receiving end of this type of torment.
We are all entitled to believe as the Spirit moves us and to be accorded respect for our beliefs. But stop and think about what this woman is saying. Feel free to forward my comments if you wish.
Andrea
BlueHorse (came via MonkeyFilter)
Wow. I cannot find words suffient to express my appreciation of this woman's letter. She truly said it well. I fully agree that this should be something that the whole nation hears.
Her son is actually more fortunate that he realized in having her as his mother.
Andrea,
I feel you. Both my brother and I got tagged with "fag" because neither of us cared much for dating - most if not all the girls in my high school were nimrods, or seemed so at the time - and cared more for books and music than "hangin' out with the boys". According to one of my younger cousins, it's even worse today. A lot of it is just the good ol' American hatred of anyone who dares dance outside what's deemed the mainstream. Back in college, I helped a prof with a high school journalism class, which invariably drew the "freaks and geeks". Every single one of them told stories similar to your's, and a whole lot of them more than understood the rage of the Columbine kids or kids who commit suicide rather than put up with the pounding one more day.
Glad your young'uns made it out. I told all them kids that high school wasn't forever and the people that shit on them now, this is all they got and all they'll ever have. Still and all, as the anonymous twit above proved, the hatred is pervasive in our society and unfortunately won't be going anywhere soon.
Little by little, though, I gotta believe we're winning the fight. One day, maybe we'll act like the human beings we say we are.
Absolutely great. I'm just going to print this out and keep it on hand to give out to people instead of arguing with them.
I don't know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn't put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse.
Best. Sentence. Ever.
is there a modern christian movement that is fundamentalist in nature and perhaps has a presence in the pacific northwest?
cereal breath -- it's not a precise term, but most Christians who call themselves evangelical consider that
1. you have to be "saved" by Jesus, i.e., born again.
2. the Bible is THE ONLY source of spiritual knowledge that God has revealed to humankind
Different sects have different positions on whether it should be interpreted literally or not, or how strictly the old testament should be followed. But there are loads and loads of churches who advocate a very strict interpretation. They range from the stricter of the "mainline" denominations to independent storefront churches.
From your description, I'd guess your friend fell into one of the smaller groups. Sadly, Fred Phelps is far from being the only fundamentalist preacher in the world. There are many more just like him that don't have the knack for publicity.
JimMA:
Thanks for the info. i am really concerned about this friend. we spent many-a-night on the beach with a little of the old perforated chemical paper melting in our mouths (which makes me think that perhaps her discovery of the "holy ghost" is little more than some old ghosts coming home to roost). she had always been so accepting and appreciative of people. now she has folded herself up into something i do not recognize, she is not the same person. she cannot even be spoken to rationally anymore, she is gone. i'm talking full-on brainwashing, complete with conservative, anti-gay political sentiments in tow. it is not that she just "found jesus" but that she "found the ugly jesus" that worries me.
Both my brother and I got tagged with "fag" because neither of us cared much for dating
I got tagged as a fag in highschool because I was small, kinda girly, and rarely got dates (the braces/glasses/bad hair/no self-esteem might have had something to do with that). In college I was thought to be gay because I hung out with (literally) all the queers on campus. And yet, some of my best friends were homophobes...
most Christians who call themselves evangelical consider that
1. you have to be "saved" by Jesus, i.e., born again.
2. the Bible is THE ONLY source of spiritual knowledge that God has revealed to humankind
I remember teaching a telecom class in Atlanta many years ago when one student arrived fairly early while I was setting up the room. She introduced herself with "Hi, my name is ____, and I'm saved." I resisted the urge to say "Hi, my name is Todd, and I'm going to Hell."
Inborn or not?
It depends on how well you understand how genetics works. We are not born so much with heterosexuality as we are with easy imprints to society's hints (nurture) in our pre-teen and teen peer-pleasing stage.
I asked my (very reasonable) gay brother how he turned out gay, and he responded that his experiences with the teen dating scene revolted him in their cruelty and bigotry, and so he moved on to alternative scenes, which included meeting guys who had similar responses.
Like liked like, and he bonded with somone whom he agreed with. It is not true that conflict breeds love. Quite the opposite: we wish to bond, and DO bond, with our soul-mates.
Hating the teen dating scene is very understandable. I barely tolerated it myself, and can easily see how someone could derive the same psychological benefits from a homo-sexual relations as from a hetero-sexual one. Think about it. I hope I've made it clear, or cleared some ground for someone more adept to add clarity to the concept.
You shoulda given into that urge, NTodd. I honestly, sincerely don't give two damns about someone's personal religious beliefs...as long as they keep them personal and don't bother me with 'em. Minute someone says he's saved or asks if I found Jesus, I feel perfectly free to let loose the dogs on them.
I love it when they tell me they're gonna pray for me. I tell 'em I'm gonna go smoke pot and listen to the Supersuckers so they have something to pray about.
Great, fantastic, amazing letter. Could one of the people asking questions at one of the debates read this to GWB and ask him to refute it?
Coming from a religion that teaches that, "All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals," I've just never understoond Christianity's need to gay-bash."
OT: CBS reports GWB leads Kerry in Ohio.
Time magazine's new issue has an article asserting it has proof Cheney had a hand in the Halliburton Iraq contracts. http://islanddave.blogspot.com/
"I tell 'em I'm gonna go smoke pot and listen to the Supersuckers so they have something to pray about."
Excellent! Thank you, I hope you don't mind, I'll be using that one in the future.
One of my favourites is the answer to the question:
"Don't you want to go to heaven?"
"Are you going to be there?"
But, but, But, it's AGAINST GOD and Jesus and, and Dubya!
now she has folded herself up into something i do not recognize, she is not the same person
I watched this happen to one of my friends during college. She joined a local "mission" (cult) and over the course of several months, went from a happy, well adjusted teenager to a brainwashed shell of a person. She doesn't think for herself anymore, and any kind of conversation is impossible. Since she considers it her duty to "save" all her friends, she won't talk to me about anything but Jesus.
I think that you have to shut part of yourself off to become "saved". I don't believe it's natural for a human being to go through life without questioning morality and spirituality -- particularly when so many of the fundamentalists' beliefs go against the natural goodness in people. What I don't know is if the process is reversible.
Way OT - I watch CNN HL "news" once in a while in order to see what kind of chimpy-lovin' crap they're trying to dish up.
You wouldn't believe today's little smooch-fest.
They actually gave a top-five slot to Rolling Thunder's Bush endorsement. Now, you might be thinking the same thing as I was - namely, "who are these fucking clowns?"
Turns out they have almost 7,000 members nationwide! Wow - that's certainly worth top-line coverage - almost as many people as the US Chess Federation has in New York state! To put the cherry on this dirtpipe milkshake, Sachi Koto described the reception given chimpy as "thunderous." Apparently, going for a cute little play on words is more important than the truth. Nancy Sinatra and 9 of her biking buddies do not a thunderous reception make.
Damn SCLM.
Bravo....I feel like giving a standing ovation--oh hell, I will.
Wow. That letter is incredibly powerful -- and I don't say that lightly.
I have an idea. Why don't we quit persecuting innocent gays and START persecuting these twisted, immoral, conservative fucks?
i always figured in every family there was someboy gay, and dammit, mine is so bloody functional, i haven't found one yet.
but for all who do and LOVE their relative, i give them a hand.
how do cheney and brit hume REALLY real?(mine is ok, but those other gays are bad) i hope that randall terry's gay son affects his littl brain. changing him is not an option unfortunately.
guess i was born right the first time.
Amen, preach it, sister. I am so happy to read this. I'm passing it on to as many people as I can.
Religiosity matters not one whit. It is love that takes you through heaven's gate. And the last shall be first...
*sniff* If I was articulate, this is basically what I would have written for my childhood friend, who was driven to suicide due to his sexuality. I'd write more, but I really need to cry right now.
It is love that takes you through heaven's gate.
Amen sister.
Thank you for posting this Atrios. One of my friends since elementary school lived a life just as described in this letter; there was hardly a day that went by that he wasn't abused and called names for being gay--even before he became sexually conscious. Just last year he took his own life at age 21; he was an only child.
I do hope this concerned, eloquent mother's child will find happiness, and I applaud her for being so supportive.
You shoulda given into that urge, NTodd. I honestly, sincerely don't give two damns about someone's personal religious beliefs...
i don't give a damn, either, but i know which side my bread is buttered on. instructors live and die based on class evals, and pissing off students on day 1 doesn't help our cause!
patriotboy & Backslider: Thanks. That was indeed the article I'd read. As mentioned, it shows what a disturbed man Phelps really is. (The story about his treatment of his eldest son's fiance-who died of a drug overdose at 17 after they broke up-was truly heartbreaking.)
What I find amusing about evangelicals is their rather condescending attitude towards the people they approach. "We need to spread the Word about Jesus!" 'Cause y'know, in Western culture, the Bible is such an OBSCURE book, so they're the only ones who'd know about Him.
Anybody watching 60 minutes just now? During Andy Rooney's Memorial Day piece, they showed a picture of all 811 Americans who have died in Iraq. Took 11 minutes, and they were scrolling pretty quick.
I'm deeply involved in fandom, and there is there for those who are not familiar with it, the phenomenon called "slash" which, by the most common definition, means creating a fanfiction story or metastory in which two characters who are (usually) not supposed to be homosexual are written as such. It's way complicated and there are all kinds of fandom ideological battles that don't make sense completely if you're in it, let alone outside it.
But one of many reasons* for "slashing" characters (this comes from the way that stories are described - a Star Trek one (where it got started as I understand) might go K/S which stands for Kirk/Spock - a Kirk & Spock romance, or story in which that is a given) is because the authors, usually female, are disgusted with the way het relationships are presented as fundamentally unequal and abusive, and so looking for a model in which sex can be both egalitarian and include friendship, use an established same-sex friendship as the jump-off point, in the belief that inequality is inescapable in het.
Which is sad.
What is even sadder, imo, is when slashers then go on to write same-sex couples with stereotypical m/f traits, making one excessively "butch," the other excessively "femme" and use them to act out the same sorts of dysfunctional soap operas tht you usually see with het relationships in the media. "Hercules the bullying rapist/Iolaus the pale, fainting submissive" is an ever popular example.
This is something I've put a lot of energy into deconstructing over the past two years (not alone) - I don't know how much difference I've made to young women's thinking about gender issues, but I do hope I've raised some consciousness there...
*the other reason is that guys aren't the only people to think that same-sex sex by the opposite sex is, well, hot
I saw Andy Rooney, but I missed what he said right before the pictures started. Did you hear it? If you did can you paraphase?
NTodd,
Which is why I'd never make the teacher my momma secretly wanted me to be. I doubt I could go through a year without telling a student he or she was a twit.
Bill S.,
Heh. I once had a fundie come up to me and say, "Have you heard the good word about Jesus?" I told him I thought that I'd heard something of the cat in passing, and then walked off. The guy didn't follow, for some reason.
bellatrys,
Although I've never read much fan fiction - for most, the original source is ample enough, and for the rest, it's just a video game, settle down - I can understand why a lot of slash writers are female. And you're right, it is sad our society sets relationships with such an advesarial edge to them. And it's gotta be that way, apparently; someone's gotta be in control and someone's gotta have the upper hand. Another reason I spend a whole lot of time by myself, I reckon...
And as to your second point, I have been astounded to learn how many women are into gay porn. I've got two female friends in particular who have something like 200 movies between. All guys. I asked 'em why and the ysaid, "Dude. It's nekkid hots guys and there's no women involved."
The more I thought about it, I had to admit it made sense from a certain perspective.
Amen and amen...
HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED?
"Saved"? What, like, for a rainy day?
Hope everyone saw the great article in the New Yorker about gay marriage. Really, we're moving away from patriarchy at a glacial pace, but it's going to happen.
NTodd,
Which is why I'd never make the teacher my momma secretly wanted me to be. I doubt I could go through a year without telling a student he or she was a twit.
That's what drinking sessions with fellow instructors are for. "You shoulda heard what one of my students said today...barkeep, another round!"
HAVE YOU FOUND JESUS?
Yeah, I moved the sofa cushions, and there He was.
Here is an article on Sharon Underwood and her letter from from the Advocate
bellatrys -- I have several friends who are slash fans and writers, and you've nailed a lot of what they tell me. The allowances for guys to be romantic and emotive with other guys is also a big factor.
Of course, I myself believe in equal het relationships; you've just gotta build 'em, rather than merely hope they work out that way.
HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED BY JESUS?
Maybe, I didn't get his name-what does he look like?
Wow! Eloquence and power from my freakin' hometown paper! Rock on, Ms. Underwood, take a bow, breakfast at Lena's, on me, next time I come home.. You make me proud to be an (exiled) Vermonter! thanks, atrios..
HAPPY ENDING
From the Advocate
"Her letter describes the suicide note her son wrote when he was 17, but the story has a happy ending: Her son, Ian LaRose, is now 28 and living happily in Boston with a boyfriend. He has found happiness, she said"
Maybe he's married by now?
edub, I saw the 11 min. Rooney collage. Theydied because of 'weapons of mass destruction'.
Then I think of W at the correspondent's banquet: "The WMDs must be here somewhere, maybe under the couch, or over there.
That soulless bastard.
Wow. We really need to get a PSA of this on the air anywhere that's going to have a voter referendum on anti-gay marriage amendments.
As an aside- Backslider, your comments never fail to make my day. As a fellow long-haired "weirdo", I salute you.
bellatrys, character assasination, in all its forms, should be punished mightily with 35 smacks with a wet fish. A virtual wet fish, of course.
I've been a gen writer most of my fanfiction life, and one of the reasons I rarely read slash unless it's an author who's a favorite of mine is that slash fanfiction has a tendency to not be about the relationship between these two people, but about a painstaking reconstruction of the sex, descriptions of the lubes and toys involved, and other stuff I don't want to waste my time with. I know HOW people have sex, thanks. Tell me WHY, and it's a story.
It's so strange, in a way, to see this particular fannish phenomenon take on the same characteristics of the debate publicly: that it's all about the sex, and damn the love. It makes for some bad fic, and some bad rhetoric.
A.
If God is Republican, Jesus is a Democrat
Wow. What an incredible letter. It gave me chills. I am saving it to pull out when I need amunition.
"God Bless You!" Says the local sales clerk, grocery bagger, repairman, whatever. To which I cheerfully reply:
"She does. Every Day!" I walk away smiling as they choke.
That's what drinking sessions with fellow instructors are for. "You shoulda heard what one of my students said today...barkeep, another round!"
Amen to this! One of my best friends and I get together regularly for pool and beer--and commiseration about teaching. I love the job and can't imagine doing anything else, but sometimes some students can get on my last nerve (like one I had this semester who couldn't understand the F they received after missing 2/3 of the class periods).
Somewhere, God smiles. I've had it with people who hijack all that is spiritual and Godly and good and wrap their own bullshit in it. Sharon hit a grand slam for genuine love.
saving to the hard drive and waiting for someone to give me "family values" crap....just waiting...
HAVE YOU ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR?
-That's a personal question, and I refuse to answer it.
-What, he didn't mention it to you? What kind of relationship do you have with him, that he doesn't tell you this stuff?
-If I say "yes", will you go away?
Wonderful.
My personal prejudice is that you don't turn out one of these mouthbreathing thug teenagers if you're paying attention to what you're raising (I'm a firm proponent of the nurture theory when it comes to the roots of assholism) but I think there's also a lot of fear in it - there are fewer and fewer slots at the top in this country, or even in the middle, and a time-honored way of social-climbing into the group that's going to be "successful" is to have a body count of people you've written off and your friends have beaten up.
Call it the Instapundit model. Unfortunately, it works for enough people to encourage the next batch.
Pro-family.
Everything these people do is anti-family and anti-people.
The list is long.
>My personal prejudice is that you
don't turn out one of these
mouthbreathing thug teenagers if
you're paying attention to what
you're raising (I'm a firm
proponent of the nurture theory
when it comes to the roots of
assholism)<
I think it is more about youth culture and the unwillingness of adults to try to change it. I am not even really sure that that woman's son was in fact "born" homosexual rather than just being born a bit different and forced into a role by the unchecked lord of the flys youth culture we get by default.
DO YOU HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESEUS?
Who blabbed? Listen creep, what we do in the privacy our our own bedroom is none of your business!
I've run out of jokes. (Sigh. I was hoping to keep this up all night.)
When I was a kid, my grandmother gave me an illustrated book of stories from the Bible. I wasn't really interested til I got to the story of Abraham and Isaac, because in the pictures, Ike was shirtless and looked really hot. So one of my earliest homosexual awakenings is from a Bible story. I'm pretty sure that's not what my grandma had in mind. (It occurs to me that Jesus was a carpenter, so he probably had a nice bod-all that heavy lifting woulda made him pretty buff, plus he was also good with his hands...)
It's saddening to hear the accounts of people becoming suicidal; I went through a period where I felt that way. I can't honestly say whether it was from being subjected to homophobia on a daily basis (even though I wasn't "out" at the time) or whether I was suffering from depression and those experiences heightened that feeling. (Depression does run in my family; my older brother-who wasn't gay-comitted suicide 7 years ago.) I encourage anyone who is contemplating suicide to talk to someone. If you're afraid to do that, ride the feelings out until you CAN talk to someone! Trust me: those feeling aren't permanent, but acting on them IS. Life might kinda suck but...well, death kinda sucks even more.
I have been astounded to learn how many women are into gay porn.
Backslider
Someone posted here awhile back that a lot of gay men prefer the guys in hetero porn.
My brain hurts.
Amen, Ms. Underwood. Amen.
What a false letter. Homos do try to recruit. You people should be outrated at the kind of behavior the Bible says is an abomination.
What would Jesus *really* do.
-- I too immediately copied that poignant and perfect letter and saved it as a Word document. Word, indeed. If Ken Burns ever decides to do a documentary on the Gay American Experience, this is his "Sullivan Ballou" letter...
I suppose the idea that this woman and her son appear at the Democratic Convention was mere fancy or facetiousness. I believe, sadly, that the Democratic leadership, and even the nominee, are far too lily-livered to invite the backlash that would follow.
The Talking Heads would call it "shrill" or "strident," and sagely analyze why it sets the wrong tone for Kerry. And even most of the "realists" who post here would snarl that a such show of tolerance would be all wrong. It's the ---, stupid!
I left that line blank because I don't think anyone can say exactly what "it" is this year. It seems creepily obvious that there are a plurality of registered voters out there in the hinterlands who believe that the usurper POTUS is doin' as good a job as ya can expect handling the War on Terrorism. These patriots are utterly oblivious to basic, if sophisticated, concepts like civil rights, due process, and a reasonable expectation that we ought not be governed by a group of plutocrats who are patting us on the back with hearty jingoism while slitting our pockets.
But I digress. The letter is superb.
-- Fred, I know what you mean about the "youth culture" thing, but I think you need to consider that "the unwillingness of adults to try to change it" might be related to the disturbing truth that (we) adults actually embed and transmit that culture, and by and large remain in denial of this. Just a thought.
What a false letter. Homos do try to recruit. You people should be outrated at the kind of behavior the Bible says is an abomination.
BM
You mean behavior such as hate and judemental behavior? Or what did you mean exactly? Didn't quite get it, BM.
Don't feed the trolls, Tom P. Starve them. STARVE THE TROLLS!
What a false letter. Homos do try to recruit. You people should be outrated at the kind of behavior the Bible says is an abomination.
BM
Is BM afraid of being "recruited"?
Homos do try to recruit.
So does the military. Hmmm...
What a false letter. Homos do try to recruit. You people should be outrated at the kind of behavior the Bible says is an abomination.
BM
Is BM afraid of being "recruited"?
BM, look out! There's danger around every corner.
Lock your doors, jump into bed, and pull the covers over your empty head.
Pathetic twit.
We will be having a big recruitment drive next Wednesday at primary schools across the land. Be sure to check out our brochures!
Sorry for the double post. Why does Haloscan have to do that?
Is being "outrated" something like being "outed?"
I think it is more about youth culture and the unwillingness of adults to try to change it.
Well, maybe so, but I'm in the privileged position of having an awful lot of second generation immigrants in my daughter's school, and I wouldn't want to watch the interaction that took place between any of the children she goes to school with and their parents if the kid tried to pass off swinish behavior with "everybody's doing it..."
Just saw the Andy Rooney segment here on the other coast.
Once again, all I could think of was I hope the Commander Bunnypants and all those fucking bastards, including the jeebus-loving idiots who think he's doing some vicious deity's work all rot in hell. Dammit, I wish I believed in hell. Well, then, I just hope they all rot.
And here's to you, Mrs Underwood
Jesus knows the beauty of your soul
Wo wo wo
God bless you please, Mrs Underwood
Heaven waits for those who aren't afraid
Hey hey hey
Hey hey hey
Such a beautiful and moving letter!!!One of the greatest tragedies in "so-called christianity is the total de-humanization of human beings made in the image of God, only beacause of their sexual orientation, in which one has at birth, and cannot be changed...the therapies don't work....When you read the Jesus message, he inclusified the family, did not say one word about homosexuality....that word was added to the Bible because of incorrect translations...The answer to the Sodom story is in Ezekiel 16, and there is a similar story in Judges 19...if anything the translation would be "rape" which has to do with control and power over another.....The Bible DOES NOT condemn for their sexuality!!!!There are thousands of translations of the Bible, and interpreted differently..For example, I would never read a Robertson,Falwell,etc.(even Catholic) Bible as their beliefs would be inserted....There are 2 wonderful,loving, and intimate relationships in the Blbe: David and Jonathan;Ruth and Naomi, whose covenant promis is read in many marriage ceremonies.....Forgive me for my preachy post, but most religious people are still at the cross, and never moved forward with Jesus.....I have heard more hate from the "religious leaders" who have no idea what Jesus said, how he lived his life with the outcasts, and told off the "religious leaders" of that day..."What would Jesus do?" He would be at the marriages in Mass.,San Francisco,and where ever else there were ceremonies, and say, Finally, a breath of fresh air!!!Let's have more!!!!......o.k. so I overdid it, but I hope you get the point.....Sharon's letter ought to be in every newspaper, and all across the internet!!!!Ginny
Wish I could write like that.
This letter is incredible-for us. Rightists lack the capacity to understand it or the patience to get all the way through it. Lacking morals it is not like they will feel any shame, even from such excellent writing. Hopefully these road-middling people who want to distinguish between different names for marriage will see it.
I never worry about the nature vs. nurture thing as it relates to gayness. I just try and respect and accept what a person says they are.
And if they don't say, I don't worry about it.
bravo
I remember saying when the gay marriage issue came up in California and Massachusettes, and I know I wasn't alone, that all the Democratic presidential nominees at the time should hold a joint press conference and come out in support of gay marriage.
Maybe Kerry was too busy calling Dean insane for doubting we were safer with Saddam behind bars.
Does anyone believe Kerry really has a problem with two people of the same sex getting married?
Does anyone but an idiot or a believer that Christ is coming back next Thursday truly wonder which is the right side in this debate?
I'll vote for the guy and I've even given him money but... yikes.
boo-ya!
Just to be complete assholes=the #2 factor in turning into a sick child molester is Bible-Believing crossworship. (#1 is alcoholism.)
That truly was an astounding letter because she meant what she said. It actually meant something. I had a mother like that. She has passed now.
Christ is coming!!! Quick, look busy!
My sister, too, fell victim to the "Saved" crowd when she was in college. When she came home to visit later that year, she shunned and chastised me for being gay. I resonded the best way I know how, not giving her hate a response, just loving her back. Later, she told me that when she read her bible for guidance, it told her to "Love thy brother", not hate the fag.
Years later, we have repaired our relationship, I gave her away at her wedding, and she wants to move near to me and my partner so we can help her raise the twins she is pregnant with.
The lesson? Don't hate back. Love can conquer intolerance. Sometimes, we do win the battle.
OT: I was just nosing around the internet and googled islamic websites:, alittle nervous due to big brother, and came upon www.albalagh.net
Taking a start. Head scarves in schol. I don't know how to set up a link so that's the best I can do. But when I read this website, I can't imagine talking to any children like that. It's a little wierd.
And oh yeah, I read this letter a couple of years back in the Advocate. It brought me to tears and cheers then, and it still does today. So many great comments of understanding, as well as realizing how far we still have to go...
This hit me right in the gut. Bless ger and her son. Also I've never thought about asking the intolerant among us heteros if they could "change" if they wanted to. I don't think I've ever thought about why I'm attracted to women and not men. I figure, if you can find true love in this crazy world, more power to ya'.
DK2
Sorry for the double post. Why does Haloscan have to do that?
Is being "outrated" something like being "outed?"
____league
probaly hit refresh before you closed and re-opened the comment window.
outrated is what happened to big pharma in NYC by the O'Franken Factor
OT, just had to share: there's a silent movie on right now (on either AMC or TCM,I think) about WWI... amusing. Especially how little changes, heh. Highlight thus far: "After an hour of his best sign language, convincing the wineseller that he wanted a barrel, not a fat girl, Jim headed back to camp."
God, that letter brought back some memories.
I'm not gay. I am transgendered. I'm not transsexual--which means, though I have gender identity disorder, I've chosen not to do anything with my body. But I am 'different' on the gender scale and that was *completely* apparent to all and sundry in childhood. I didn't do 'boy things' at ALL. I'd rather play dolls with the girls than trucks with the boys, and that's just the small part of it.
Children are cruel, and don't have much of an understanding of the differences between gender identity and sexual orientation. So, I was branded 'fag' at a very young age and got beat up a lot about it.
This, even though I *did* date girls. I had my first two girlfriends in eighth grade and that was the year the abuse was the worst.
My suicide attempt was at 15. That wasn't the only reason--one of the few true and lasting friends I had had died shortly before, she had leukemia--but it was the big one, being abused for being 'gay'.
Being gender-different has made me see things differently. My wife has a bi streak, that dovetails nicely being married to someone who identifies as 'more mentally female than male' and the gender roles in our house are rather reversed. And I own more skirts than she does *grin*. This is why when I encounter the 'marriage is between a man and a woman' crowd, I first ask them to define 'man' and 'woman'. Of course, this quickly gets down to brass tacks--marriage is between a penis and vagina. Somehow, I don't think that's in the Bible, eh?
Anyhow, I loved the letter.
As I've mentioned, I write romantic erotica. It *is* erotica--I don't leave the 'fun bits' out--but I write actual stories, which actual plots and three-dimensional characters and so on.
Because my writing tends to be *really* sappy-romantic, I have a good base of female readers.
Most of my stuff is hetero, though I've done female/female. (And guy-with-two-girls threesomes, of course, that's almost obligatory *grin*) In one of my current serials, there *is* going to be a male/male relationship, and I've discussed that on my mailing list. Most of my male readers wrote, 'er, well, it's your story, but could you warn us beforehand?'
Most of my female readers went 'yippee!!!'
ChurchofMichael-er, Bruce-is a *SHOCKING* example of what our nation may become without returning to our Christian woots. Er, roots.
We NEVER wear clothing of the the opposite gender, and more than Christ our Lord did. (He wore pants-we have flat glossy friezes of him that miraculously appeared in a magazine we were reading, wearing Levi's, with these large hats among lots of cattle...)
I'm going to copy up a few hundred copies of this letter and insert them into the weekly bulletin at my church (anonymously of course... I'd be lynched)
This hit me right in the gut. Bless ger and her son. Also I've never thought about asking the intolerant among us heteros if they could "change" if they wanted to. I don't think I've ever thought about why I'm attracted to women and not men. I figure, if you can find true love in this crazy world, more power to ya'.
DK2
"[you'd] be lynched"...then why on earth do you go to that church (never mind)..?
"[you'd] be lynched"...then why on earth do you go to that church (never mind)..?
kei & yuri | Email | Homepage | 05.31.04 - 1:48 am | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
For the cake?
Are there half-nekkid gals dancing out of this cake? What the hell cake is this that you risk lynchin' for it? That's gotta be some kinda marijuana-laced multi-storied iced edifice they have.
From the classic book on the subject of homosexuality the author C.A.Tripp.Ph.D,is asked:
"If you could wave a magic wand that would affect nobody now alive,but which would eliminate homosexuality in future generations,would you do so"?
>>>"Certainly not",he answered."For while it is always tempting to opt for any kind of uniformity which would automatically reduce human conflict,only a fool would reach into some giant computer that nobody understands and start yanking out transistors".
Forgot to name the book!
C.A Tripp's book:The Homosexual Matrix
ChurchofBruce, hon, you're just fine. You have a harder row to hoe than most, and you still take a concern about how you're doing.
Bless your heart, hon, you're far closer to the front of the line than you think you are.
also like this Stanislaw Lem story. A great inventor makes a machine that "makes N", meaning it can synthesize anything named starting with N, as in "night", a "nocturne", "noon". His rival defies it to make "nothing" and it begins to slowly devour Creation.
Voy a agregar este sitio a mis Favoritos, está mejor que tener. Sexo con britney spears.Visita_mi_blog"
Mar Chu
David E: I agree--grrrrr.
pack of faggots
Jesus Saves. Moses Invests.
The homophobes really trap themselves in a bad box in the nature/nurture argument. See, if they go for nature, then there's obviously nothing anyone can do to make a gay person straight or vice versa. Ergo, there can be nothing unnatural about homosexuality, just as there's nothing unnatural about blue eyes instead of brown.
But... if they insist that being gay is a choice, they leave themselves open to the rather obvious concept that being straight is a choice. Therefore -- it should be very easy for any one of them to suddenly chose to be gay -- and only fair, if they're going to try to insist that gay people suddenly chose to be straight.
Personally (meaning, from personal experience), I subscribe to the nature argument. I've always known I preferred the same sex, long as I can remember, and when the hormones kicked in, I did not have an instant epiphany that made me lust the opposite sex. Nah. Just kept lusting for the same sex, only moreso. However, at the same time, I had quite the opposite experience that many people mentioned on the postings above. See, on the outside, I acted like a "straight" boy, except for that dating and stuff, and so I didn't grow up being taunted and called a faggot. Which, in some perverse way, made it all the more confusing.
But -- I know masculine gay men, I know effeminate straight men; butch straight women and girly lesbians. I know straight men who prefer women's clothing and flaming queens who nonetheless wouldn't be caught dead doing drag. The point is, sexuality and gender are a lot more complicated than either/or, male/female. These are the dichotomies that society has got to get over; we have got to learn that there are more than two boxes into which people can be put. We also have to learn that sex is not a moral issue unless you chose to make it so. Sex is a natural function, just like eating; and while eating used to be dictated by morality, only the most orthodox of Jews follow every single kosher law nowadays. Yes, we have vegans or vegetarians who make eating a moral issue -- but they aren't trying to ban beef or chicken for the rest of us.
The fundies should learn something from that, the lesson being, "We don't care how you fuck (or don't), as long as you don't care how we do."
Teotwawki23 has it totally right. As long as it's not abusive, who cares which way it goes?
She introduced herself with "Hi, my name is ____, and I'm saved."
NTodd
Jesus Christ. I'd like to know when this kind of junk got started. I can't imagine that kind of arrogance.
Ntodd's student reminds me somewhat of the 12-step Alcoholics Anonymous plan - which did have a religious basis, did it not? Perhaps she was persuaded that religion would be the salve of all her problems, not realising that it has in the process made her part of a 'herd' mentality...
A very moving letter. Consider what it is like for the average gay child, though. Most mothers and fathers feel exactly like those tormenting their children. Rather than protect them they try to change them. It is parents who most transmit the values of the culture.
I don't think there is much of a strong case for an inflexible preference for sex of a particular gender. (History is too full of shifting sexualities.) That doesn't mean homosexuality is chosen any more than other identities prescribed by the culture. What these morons confuse is the choice to be "out" or sexually active with the choice of gender of the partner.
Gay people would be a lot better off if they didn't use this biological argument, because it effectively legitimates a pathological perspective. "He cain't help it cuz he was born that way."
Can we get this lady to be a guest on Hannity and colmes, or maybe O'Reilly? I would love to see those big brave men try and put her in her place.
I have a better idea. Why don't you stop watching Hannity and O'Reilly. They are only popular because the left wing continues to watch and be outraged about them thus creating the buzz that makes it must see tv for right wing troglodytes. Their ideas are irrelevant, they should be too.
A very moving letter.
I hope Sharon Underwood gets to read these comments, they may be uplifting to her.
Are there half-nekkid gals dancing out of this cake? What the hell cake is this that you risk lynchin' for it? That's gotta be some kinda marijuana-laced multi-storied iced edifice they have.
kei & yuri | Email | Homepage | 05.31.04 - 2:10 am | #
I don't know, I was just trying to come up with a reason. I do know, however, that half-nekkid girls popping out of a pot cake would almost be enough to get me back in a church. Almost.
Wonder what "God" thinks of "his" people now?
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 05.31.04 - 9:33 am
>>Gay people would be a lot better off if they didn't use this biological argument, because it effectively legitimates a pathological perspective. "He cain't help it cuz he was born that way."
I agree whole-heartedly.
Virginia Postrel said it so eloquently, I don't see any need to do anything but post the link to her article:
The Claims of Nature
The "can gays change" debate is dodging the main issues.
http://reason.com/9810/ed.vp.shtml
"If you want to tout your own morality, you'd best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part"
The letter writer has done something very interesting in presenting homophobes in an oddly Calvinist light. Those who are saved are saved solely by the grace of God in electing them to be saved. Homosexuality seems to be, according to the homophobes so rightly condemned by the letter writer, a sign of dis-election.
This is in general my problem with fundie religion, especially fundie Christianity. There is so little room for personal responsibility and even less room for social obligation or religious duty. In this fundie world view, even the most minor sin is so grievous that seeking forgiveness and undergoing repentance is seen as futile. OTOH, once you are saved, your sins are automatically forgiven. While as a religious person, I am very much aware of the saving power of God's grace, the notion that God would somehow select some people to receive grace and leave others out in the cold. And that God's grace itself absolves our responsibility to lead a moral life is to me, blasphemy not religion.
How can one lead a moral life without the self-examination that is the root of true repentence? If grace is merely a gift, how is it moral that it is offered to some and not to others? If someone told me of "God" that condemned people to hell simply because they were not somehow selected to receive grace or were, due to factors beyond their control, unable to learn of the means to receive grace - I would think this Being not to be God but to be Satan himself!
A truly religious person would understand that God's grace does not save us directly. Rather, God graceously grants us the tools by which we all can live a moral life. Salvation does not come from being "elect" or being heterosexual or what not, but as the letter writer points out, quoting one of the family values crowd, salvation comes from struggling with sin and winning - from striving to be a better person.
Absolutely, DAS-if what separates you from the hellbound dross is something totally out of your control, the result must be fear because it can be withdrawn as smoothly and as randomly as it was bestowed.
The letter is simply amazing and powerful. How can we get it printed in ads across the world?
Hate hate. You cannot tolerate attacks on tolerance and claim to value tolerance. We believe that tolerance is essential for the survival of a pluralistic community. Intolerance isn't just an attack on our community, it is a supreme act of selfishness, putting one's self ahead of the community.
In this case, that of homophobia, intolerance is putting one's superstitions above the good of the community. In other words, it's not only sociopathic and vicious, it's ignorant.
Yes, gays can "choose" to live according to someone else's superstitions ... UNDER THE TALIBAN. If this is the US of A, then no one's superstitions can legitimately be anyone else's problem.
Repeat after me:
"You superstitions aren't my problem"
"How are gays who want to form families 'anti-family'?"
"Show me that man who 'hates the sin and loves the sinner,' and I'll show you a coward and a liar."
"We were raised to fear gays and to fear being gay. Then I grew up. How about you?"
If a fundie finds that he is gay, he'll have to wrestle with that. However, even if he's a legislator, he cannot legitimately legislate his metaphysics. Not in this country.
On the other hand, the right is down to its last boogey-man. Bob Jones U. style racism is a black spot, they try not to speak of it, now. The reduction of women to household appliances, breeder-cows, and punching-bags is no longer normal and accepted. What's left for the right? What is the last 'legitimate' victim? On whom can they vent their self-hatred and fear, all in the name of piety? What all-too-revealing preference can be rebadged a 'principle' by blaming it on a grandfather god?
The gays are all they have left. What's more, if they let go now, their claim to work from time-honored principles will be even more of a joke than it already is.
In simpler terms:
THE CHRISTIANISTS HAVE THE GAY WOLF BY THE EAR
if they hold on, they're injured
if they let go, they're injured
So keep the pressure on. And when they finally, inevitably let go, when America wins and our gays have their rights as Americans, never let anyone forget how shamefully long it took to slough off the disgusting blood-taboos of the ignorant and the vicious. Like the famous picture, the hateful face of a white girl following a stoic black girl into a southern school for the first time, we will hang this albatross around the right's neck. Let it fester and stick all our lives:
You were wrong. You have victims. Your festering hatred has a body-count. You ruined and ended lives. And for what?
It may be tough on a lot of us now, but the superstition nazis are fucked. It's a great day to be an American, and those who hate her values are doomed.
pack of faggots
dhimmicrat slayer | Email | Homepage | 05.31.04 - 3:43 am | #
Oh, you slay me, all right! But not in the way you intended.
See, folks? That's all they've got. Put that monkey in a cage and start selling tickets.
oh, btw: technically speaking, I'm 'shirk,' not 'dhimmi.'
Have a fabulous day!
From the first blog where this was published: New Penis Grown on Boys Arm.
A "dhimmi" is a slave of the Jewish-oh, wait, the rightist racist conspiracy nuts changed their preferences-Muslim World Conspiracy/Government. It reeks of the "Elders of Zion" but since it's not about Jews per se it passes LGF's smell test.
Anyone using the term is at least as shitty as anyone trying to say that Jews are trying to weaken our resolve with their communistic intellectualism.
The gays are demanding special rights, and they want to be able to 1) have sex in public, 2) teach your children gayness in schools 3) get funding for anti-religious and anti-American art. They have an illness and it needs to to be cured, not celebrated. Gayness is fundamentally unAmerican. And that's The Point.
I'm beginning to think this "that's the point" thing is not just some tick, it's trying to brand itself, you know, like: 'the rest of the story.'
What it hasn't seemed to figure out is that the kind of random, paranoid fantasies that are so effective in manipulating the superstitious are a delicate flower that cannot survive outside the gentle environment of the inferior mind.
You see, here, we'd need examples of MH.'s 'points' (!) 1, 2, and 3. But we're not going to get any, just a bunch of random spluttering that makes stormfront.com look as sane as, well Larouche, anyways.
"The gays are demanding special rights" chants the informed Mr Hyman above.
This line always kills me. The vaunted Gay Agenda can be summed up in one phrase "and justice for all." Gays/lesbians pay the same taxes, obey the same laws, and expect the same rights as any other adult. Period. It's not too complicate or revolutionary.
The only canard Mark Hyman didn't repeat was the one about sex with animals.
"The gays are demanding special rights" chants the informed Mr Hyman above.
This line always kills me. The vaunted Gay Agenda can be summed up in one phrase "and justice for all." Gays/lesbians pay the same taxes, obey the same laws, and expect the same rights as any other adult. Period. It's not too complicate or revolutionary.
The only canard Mark Hyman didn't repeat was the one about sex with animals.
Sex with animals and with your children is next, you liberal apologists. This is what the grown-ups call a slippery slope, and without moral guidance and a firm grasp of the roots of our society, we are all lost. Being a homosexual should be against the law. And that's The Point.
Non-sequitur, fabrication, slippery slope as argument when actually it's a fallacy.
Nice.
Mark Hyman = guy?
I have a feeling MH is a fake troll. Come on. The screen name just happens to be the name of a VP of Sinclair Communications??
Anyway. Back to the letter. Excellent. It should be required reading for anyone with a stake in this debate.
Just curious:
What is the theological Jewish position on homosexuality? AFAIK, the quotes used by Christian homophobes mostly are drawn from the Old Testament, so this seems to be the relevant source - but I have the luck never to have encountered fanatical homophobia.
(Just to clarify: I am not homosexual myself, so I may be simply not observant/concerned enough to spot hidden prejudices.)
Joerg
Joerg - there is no single Jewish perspective on homosexuality. It varies from complete acceptance to extreme homophobia. As you point out, the verses used by Christians who condemn homosexuality often do come from the "Old Testament", but we Jews tend to approach the Bible in a somewhat different way (we don't cherry-pick a few verses for obsession, but rather take the Mosaic law as a constitution of sorts).
In general, Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, who do not view the Torah as legally binding, accept homosexuality. Conservative Judaism, which does accept the legally binding nature of Jewish teaching, tends to have a "don't ask, don't tell policy" (and in practice, is quite split over the issue). Most Orthodox groups do not accept homosexuality, but I think some do.
There are a few key issues in terms of the Jewish perspective on homosexuality.
(1) To what acts do the relevant Biblical condemnations actually refer?
Jewish teaching has long held that the sin of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality. Many Jews hold that the prohibitions in Leviticus do not apply to what we know today as homosexuality but rather to what could be called "facultative homosexual practices" by people who are otherwise heterosexual (e.g. sex between students and teachers in ancient Greece) or to specific homosexual practices (the actual language of the Levitical prohibitions is against (unprotected) anal sex). If the verses in Leviticus apply to modern homosexuality, then Jewish teaching would view homosexuality as a grave sin (at least for Jews). If the verses refer to something else, then modern homosexuality is acceptible.
(2) Supposing homosexuality is condemned by Jewish law, to what degree is it condemned?
The Levitical verses specify that homosexuality is an "abomination" (I forget the Hebrew term). This term seems to have a specific technical meaning in Biblical Hebrew which is not clear to us today (note - the word used in this context to condemn "homosexuality" is not the same word used to prohibit the eating of shrimp - the word used to prohibit the eating of shrimp, etc., indicates disgust rather than moral impurity). It probably has to do with ritual purity. As such, these prohibitions might not be so important today. On the other hand, there are those who view the Levitical prohibitions against what may be homosexuality as being very much of concern today.
Even if these prohibitions are of concern, there is much precident within Judaism for a high degree of tolerance for those who deviate from Jewish teachings. For example, when you go into a synagogue, they don't quiz you on whether you ate non-kosher food. So why should they pay any attention to your choice in sexual partners?
(3) How does it affect things if homosexuality is inborn rather than a choice?
Jewish law would not condemn someone for doing something over which they have no control. OTOH, homosexual behavior is something over which people have control. Jews who believe that homosexuality is wrong, often will make an analogy with kleptomania - a kleptomaniac steals because he cannot help but steal. Even though it is a sin to steal, because the kleptomaniac cannot control his behavior, he has not really sinned. OTOH, a kleptomaniac is obligated to seek help for his sickness. Many Jews who view homosexuality as a sin condone homosexual actions, but urge homosexuals to get "treated" for their condition. Patronizing yes ... but at least they "hate the sin but love the sinner".
Those of us Jews who do not believe modern day homosexuality is a sin feel that God would not prohibit an action that is so deeply embedded in a person's psyche. God must have prohibited something else in Leviticus because a prohibition against homosexuality just does not jive with our conception of Jewish law.
(4) To what degree are non-Jews responsible to uphold any Jewish prohibition against homosexuality?
We Jews believe that as "the chosen people" we have certain obligations not held by others. While our system of morality is supposed to be an example for how to construct a system of morality which would result in a just society (we are to be a "light unto the nations") the details of our system (e.g. kosher laws, the Sabbath and festivals) are to be observed by Jews alone. We Jews do not believe that observence of Jewish laws has much to do with salvation, etc. I.e. we do not believe you have to be Jewish to be saved, etc.
OTOH, we do believe that certain laws within our Torah apply to non-Jews as well as Jews (although they may apply differently to Jews vs. non-Jews ... for example, even though we believe that idolatry is prohibited to both Jews and non-Jews, certain practices, e.g. the presence of graven images in houses of worship, which Jews would consider to be idolatry when engaged in by other Jews, Jews consider to be acceptible non-idolatrous worship for non-Jews). From a Jewish point of view, many laws regarding sexual morality apply to both Jews and non-Jews. While some Jews, who view homosexuality as prohibited, would say that the prohibition applies only to Jews, many would say that non-Jews are also prohibited from enaging in such practices. However, a common position would be to say that Jews cannot engage in any homosexual acts whereas non-Jews must simply refrain from certain egregious behaviors (e.g. student/teacher sex, unprotected anal sex). I have actually noticed an interesting gender split here among those Jews who feel that modern homosexuality is prohibited in Leviticus. The men tend to be macho and squeemish and uncomfortable with homosexuality and consider it a sin for everyone whereas the women tend to be less squeemish and feel that consentual and sincere homosexuality is ok for non-Jews even if they feel that it is not a behavior in which Jews should engage.
In summary
There is no single Jewish position on homosexuality. Among Jews you will find positions as variable as you do among the Christians: you can go to one synagogue and witness a gay marriage and go to another and hear that gay people are going to receive hellfire and brimstone. But I think that even halachically (halacha = Jewish law) observant Jews have enough experience in tolerance of halachic laxity to be relatively tolerant of homosexuality. Even among the most homophobic Jews, attitudes toward homosexuality tend to be more patronizing and squeemish than truly hateful (although alas - there is hate out there - even in the Jewish community). And there is much debate, even among Jews for whom halacha matters a great deal, as to whether what is prohibited in Jewish teaching corresponds to modern day homosexuality or to something else - not to mention, within Jewish legal tradition, a tremendous capacity to make pic
[continued] picuyunish distinctions toward the end of tolerance (e.g. those who hold that what is prohibited is only unprotected anal sex by one man with another) as well as a legal and cultural framework for "don't ask, don't tell" tolerance if not full acceptance of such things as homosexuality. After all, if they don't question whether people eat non-kosher food, why should they question what kind of sex they had?
DAS -- thank you very much for your eloquent answer. I must admit that I did not know there was so much difference between Jewish traditions (or whatever the correct term is. No offense meant).
Hm, just another thought:
I have had quite close contact with either Catholic and Lutheran Christians, who are the two largest denominations in Germany by far; and most of the priests I have met were really reasonable. The sort of hate-filled rhetoric about condemned homosexuals etc. would be simply unimaginable from them.
So, in short: There must be a lot of reasonable Christians in the US, who do follow this "love" thingy and are shocked by the hate preached in the name of Jesus? Why donīt they speak up and declare that the rhetoric used by the haters is unchristian and sinful in itself? Why let the sensible Christian let the haters give their religion such a bad name?
Joerg
Amazing letter, thanks for posting that Atrios.
Living in NH I see firsthand the completely hateful agenda Mitt Romney is pursuing in Massachusetts. Like using a racist law from 1913 to deny out-of-state gays the right to marry in Mass.
The hate and bigotry is stunning. I needen't point out their laughable hypocrisy when they accuse Democrats of pursuing a "culture of death." Their penchant for persecution and warmongering is obvious.
"There must be a lot of reasonable Christians in the US, who do follow this "love" thingy and are shocked by the hate preached in the name of Jesus? Why donīt they speak up and declare that the rhetoric used by the haters is unchristian and sinful in itself? Why let the sensible Christian let the haters give their religion such a bad name?
Joerg"
There are many wonderful Christians that do not preach hate and bigotry.
The loudest and most extreme views get the most attention, and the more tolerant views get pushed by the wayside in the crush of hate and damnation. There are many congregations across the U.S. that welcome the LGBT community. They just do so with quiet dignity.
"There must be a lot of reasonable Christians in the US, who do follow this "love" thingy and are shocked by the hate preached in the name of Jesus? Why donīt they speak up and declare that the rhetoric used by the haters is unchristian and sinful in itself? Why let the sensible Christian let the haters give their religion such a bad name?
Joerg"
There are many wonderful Christians that do not preach hate and bigotry.
The loudest and most extreme views get the most attention, and the more tolerant views get pushed by the wayside in the crush of hate and damnation. There are many congregations across the U.S. that welcome the LGBT community. They just do so with quiet dignity.
Whoops, blasted Haloscan double post... my bad
Ignorant clarity: the "Jewish position" on homosexuality is the same as every other religion. Among civilized people who bathe regularly, they really don't care (or want any messy details). Among messianic nutcases who want the world to end...you can pretty much guess.
Joerg, why don't they speak up: being part of a flock means not leading a pack. Different animals.
Brava, Mother Underwood!
...
who?
...
kei & yuri - thank you for saying this so elequantly and concisely.
The bathing analogy is interesting. There are many Jews who still are obsessed with the fact that back when the goyim were bathing once a month if even that frequently, we Jews bathed once a week. One suspects that some of these Jews still bathe only once a week and forget that the majority of goyim (as well as us more civilized Jews) now bathe on a daily or near daily basis 
The trolls are remarckably incoherent in this thread. It's amazing. The last vestiges of visceral hatred are revealed in all their horrifying irrationality.
This is where everything shifts out from under the extremists feet. Your average joe will poll anti-gay just cus that is the way things have been, and frankly s/he doesn't want the people in the office to think s/he is "odd". But when someone you know gets married, you see loving pictures of gay marriage, letters from irate mothers like this one, suddenly you realize that there is no good reason why we should not uphold the constitution and allow equal justice for all under the law.
The tide is turning.
Hell hath no fury like a mothers scorn.
"I would like to ask them if they actually consider gay sex a temptation. If so then they are gay and they would be a lot happier if they just acknowledged the fact." - Riesz Fischer
I have long suspected that the worst homophobes were closet homosexuals, but I never thought of it quite like this. Good point Riesz!
BTW: I am sure the family-less family-values crowd (Coulter, Limbaught et al) believe that Jesus didn't have a family of his own and they just asked WWJD?
Sharon Underwood for Kerry's VP.
I sure recognize her tone. We who parent kids with chronic health problems, and have to gird up for battle with doctors or school administrators or insensitive morons in elevators call this attitude "putting on your ferocious Mommy boots." You try so hard to help your child come to terms with the challenges presented by biology, only to realize that what really limits them are so many of the damned people around them.
These feelings are the same for any good parent who sees his or her child in pain; you just can't help but stomp in and defend him.
People wanted to know what I did to give my kid cancer; I can just imagine the crap Sharon has had to take. The smug want assurance that it could NEVER happen to them! Any parent of a cancer kid I know would take healthy and gay over straight and suffering any damned day. But none of us gets a choice about who we are or who our kids are or what happens to them; it's how you handle what you're given that provides you the opportunity to show if you're worth anything yourself. I may be a lapsed Baptist, but the Jesus I read about practiced humility and human decency, not nasty self-righteous loathing.
Sharon Underwood for Kerry's VP.
I sure recognize her tone. We who parent kids with chronic health problems, and have to gird up for battle with doctors or school administrators or insensitive morons in elevators call this attitude "putting on your ferocious Mommy boots." You try so hard to help your child come to terms with the challenges presented by biology, only to realize that what really limits them are so many of the damned people around them.
These feelings are the same for any good parent who sees his or her child in pain; you just can't help but stomp in and defend him.
People wanted to know what I did to give my kid cancer; I can just imagine the crap Sharon has had to take. The smug want assurance that it could NEVER happen to them! Any parent of a cancer kid I know would take healthy and gay over straight and suffering any damned day. But none of us gets a choice about who we are or who our kids are or what happens to them; it's how you handle what you're given that provides you the opportunity to show if you're worth anything yourself. I may be a lapsed Baptist, but the Jesus I read about practiced humility and human decency, not nasty self-righteous loathing.
I'm not sure that I fully support gay marriage being legal, but this lady's letter is very powerful.
I only hope that those who have touted her son for so long could read it.
Wonderful. A most eloquent answer to the hate posing as righteousness we've been seeing on this issue. Who is this woman? She should have her own blog, or even better, a space in the NY Times.
I only wish you were here close so I could hug you. You said it all for us. My brother who passed away was gay. I wouldn't have changed one hair on his head. As he said to me one time, no one would ever choose that life-style but not because it is wrong but because of the stupid people who think being gay is wrong.
I love you ... and thank you
Lynnie (in memory of my dear brother Steve)
Very well said.
Susan Grant
Very well said.
Susan Grant
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