I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Yeah, but the problem is that Al just cannot handle this stuff well. Really, listen to the tape. Go back and watch or listen to the original O'Reilly slap-down at the book fair. If Al is going to keep doing this, and I hope he does, he needs to get a lot better at it. He needs to be strong, firm, and cool. Heck towards the ends of both altercations, he was screaming as much as the liar was. And worse, since, he's not used to it, he sounded awful - barely intelligible.
He ends up sounding as petty as the liars. Hope he gets better at at, because the tactic of directly confronting liars is sound.
-ok so the Boortz lied,
ummmmmmmm and what?
Are we suprised?
(paraphrasing Boortz
"Don't play gotcha."
Yeah, that just takes all the fun out of lying, doesn't it?
Good call Boatright
Franken falls apart verbally when he gets excited, it happened with O'reilly, it happened on The Daily Show, and now on his own show.
i like Al Franken, but he really needs to remain calm when he goes into the confrontations and let his opponent do all the shouting and stuttering.
With practice Al will get better.
Besides, he still came out looking WAY better than both Boortz and O'Reilly, both of whom dissolved into sputtering, angry little babies when challenged on their lies.
They can dish it out but they can't take it.
"next time, don't lie!"
Al falling apart or not doesn't matter to me. I loathe loathe loathe Neil Boortz. He's based in Atlanta and the conservative intelligensia see him as some sort of tin god. He's a complete twit and, frankly, I don't think he believes half the shit he says. Plus, I find it suspicious that a so-called "libertarian" is such a suck-up to the government's Patriot Act.
Anytime one of my libertarian friends uses Boortz as a source, I immediately shut down. The guy's a boob and that's it.
oh man...this is good stuff!
come on guys, give franken some credit here - he's taking boortz to town over a BLATANT lie.
Jeff Boatright and justathought
I did listen to the tape. Three times. I think AL was GREAT! It was very funny. It is your opinion that he falls apart. It is your opinion that he screams. I disagree.
It think that you are both trolls who are defenders of Boortz and O'Rielly and are out to see Franken and AAR crash and burn.
Go ahead. Prove me wrong.
Granted, this is something of a minor deal to take Boortz to task for, when the jackass says soooo much more that's completely asinine.
Ahhh...excellent take-down concerning the oft-repeated yammering concerning how the "Democrats" opposed the Civil Rights act. Christ, how can people be so goddamn stupid.
Democrat doesn't always and hasn't always equaled liberal, okay. Two words, Zell fuckin' Miller.
Franken fell apart? Seems to me Boortz went nuclear when caught with both a flat-out LIE and an honest assesment of liberal ideals.
Fuckin' twit.
KISS
When taking the right to task, you can only do it on the trivial points that don't have lengthy explanations. Ninety-nine percent of America tunes out at the first mention of anything that involves numbers and stuff.
Yup, Boortz lied. It's that simple.
And when caught in the second (the important) lie, he attacked Franken rather than defend or apologize.
Franken's behavior is not the issue. The issue is that Boortz lied.
How do we know he lied and didn't merely mispeak? Because if he had, he would have said something like, y'know, you're right, Al. Liberals didn't vote against the Civil Rights Act, I was wrong. What I meant to say was that more Democrats than Republicans voted against it [which is true, the Dem Party including far right Dixiecrats at that time]. I'll call Garafolo, correct it, and apologize.
But of course, he'll never do that. He'd rather spread a lie.
What didn't bother me so much about Al's response wasn't his "falling apart" so much as his complete over-talking of Boortz. Neil was in such a shit-canned obvious lie that the best thing Al could've done was throw short questions and just sit back in marked silence and listen to him wriggle in his chair spinning it even more out-of-control lies. I'm a regular listener, but Franken DOES have an ego and he DOES rudely overtalk his guests - at times just to be "funny."
Hopefully experience will make him more confident about making points succinctly and letting his guests (and Kathryn, who is AWESOME and HUGELY undervalued!) talk / LIIIEEEEE more.
Plus, I find it suspicious that a so-called "libertarian" is such a suck-up to the government's Patriot Act.
Backslider
Frankly I have (slightly) more respect for Republicans than I do for libertarians. I just can't take a system of thought seriously that is by intent so simplistic and so disconnected from the real world.
Not to mention that in practice, libertarians all seem to be right-wing whackos who only care about taxes and guns.
Wish I has the transcript of the tape.
Can't be sure because I didn't hear it, but my hunch is that we're dealing with the same old "Liberals Are Too Nice To Do That" BS. We're really very superior people who don't have tempers, you know. I've heard this again and again and again.
Nobody has to do any of that themselves, but for some audiences it works, and for a LOT of audiences the cool, calm, genteel snottiness doesn't work at all -- a lot of people just hate that above-the-battle superiority.
I listened to the whole segment, and I'm sorry, I don't hear Franken "falling apart". He's relentless, yes, and his style doesn't lend itself to fast-paced debate, but falling apart? Give me a break. He humiliated Boortz, bottom line.
Franken was cool as a cucmber at the end. Boortz, caught in the lies and too immature to admit it, did what childish little people do - went on the attack and turned into a blithering idiot. "I'll never come on your show again! So there!" *sticks out forked tongue*
It was enjoyable, yet oh so predictable.
Orbitron,
I've long said that when libertarians yammer on about "freedom" what it really means is, "Don't take my guns and lower my taxes". Everything I've ever heard from them leads me to think such. Otherwise, libertarians are Republicans who don't like to go to church and don't have a problem with pot.
cucumber
I do not drive while I'm talking on the cell phone.
I hereby give all Republicans permission to buy East German Trabants and talk on the cell phone as they drive in the truck lane of the New Jersey Turnpike.
Otherwise, libertarians are Republicans who don't like to go to church and don't have a problem with pot.
I always thought they were fat guys with zits who couldn't get laid at peace rallies and spent a lot of time jerking off into their socks with copies of Atlas Shrugged.
SWR,
That too. Christ, Rand's such an overrated writer. Her political philosophies aside, she's just a bad writer. Same thing with Boortz, when some ideological opponent expresses an admiration for Miss Ayn, my brain immediately says, "Okay, we're dealing with a goober here. I'm taking a nap, deal with him on yer own."
ummmmmmmmmmm...
i guess i cant PROVE that im not a troll, lol
look maybe i said it wrong, i'll try again
i like Franken,and i've listened to his show since day one.(off a link i got HERE on this message board) im just saying that he needs to keep a cool head if he wants to call ppl on their lies. instead of getting all worked up, he should let his opponent get all steamed and blow a gasket.
i guess Helical put it a bit better than i did.
ps. wow i've never been called a troll before, i feel like i just got HaloServed
wonder if there's an emoticon for that?
ps. wow i've never been called a troll before, i feel like i just got HaloServed
I get called a troll all the time. Relax, it's part of the initiation process.
A couple of people who have posted on this subject--here and elsewhere--have complained that Franken takes Boortz to task for a "trivial" lie.
In fact, Boortz was being interviewed on CNN and made something up to try to make Franken out to look like a coward because he wouldn't sub on Boortz' show. When confronted on this, Boortz tried to pretend he got Franken confused with two guys at a radio station in--where was it?--Tennessee? Ha!
Franken caught Boortz making stuff up, and when Boortz had a chance to back off of it, he tried to bluff his way through.
It wasn't trivial and Al did a fine job keeping the conversation on point.
Otherwise, libertarians are Republicans who don't like to go to church and don't have a problem with pot.
Backslider
Nicely put. Guess I can't really call them "right-wingers", given the non-religiosity and pot-tolerance, but most wingers are hypocrites about God and drugs anyway.
There is supposed to be some libertarian scheme to move to some sparsely populared state and take it over. When I heard about the plan I wondered just how quickly the victim state would turn into a Third World hellhole.
Of course for tax reasons the richest 1% of the population would become legal residents, and companies would stampede to incorporate themselves there, but that would do the residents of the state about as much good as an oil tanker being registered in Liberia does a resident of Monrovia.
The wealthy would still live in Manhattan or their country-sized ranches in Wyoming, and companies would still do business out in the misguided other 49 states.
instead of getting all worked up, he should let his opponent get all steamed and blow a gasket.
Actually I listened to the clip and Franken's getting worked up is part of what makes it fun.
The right loves to take the line that any emotion or any passion negates what you're saying, that it's a sign of your being "unbalanced."
Franken strikes me as the nerd in grade school who's been fooled by the bully one too many times into shaking hands and acting nice before getting kicked in the shins.
He's now at the point where he's not going to take it any more and goes beserk, knocking the bully on the ground and punching the bully in the face until the bully is led away by the teacher with tears streaming down his face.
I like how Boortz tried to pay Franken off after clearly being caught in a lie.
Bribery must be awfully casual to Boortz to propose it during a radio broadcast.
BTW, here's an article from a leftist (sort of leftist) magazine in Seattle.
It's a good article but Air America doesn't come across very well.
My boyfriend, meanwhile, calmly rebuffs every hysterical word out of my mouth. He'd already known about the draft proposal for months when I found out, and he's been contradicting me with arguments he's picked up from streaming Air America Radio, the brand-new (and faltering) liberal radio network that features Al Franken. "It'll never happen," Sean says--"reinstating the draft would be an act of Congress and they'll never approve it. And even if they might, I have nothing to worry about because there's no way Bush is going to get reelected. The president's approval ratings are lower now than Clinton's ever were, and an incumbent has never been reelected with such low marks. And those torture photos coming out of Iraq have sealed Bush's fate. And they're not going to draft women until they run out of men, and that's never going to happen. So why do I care?" He doesn't.
I'll listen to it WHEN AAR WISES UP AND USES AN OPEN FORMAT FOR THEIR FUCKING AUDIO FILES (AND STREAM)!
Helical -
I disagree. I think Katherine is incredibly strident and annoying and her timing is terrible. She has this "stern mommy" thing that is the antithesis of Al's persona. I know people think this is good -- keeps him in line or something -- but it is Al's show and he needs a sidekick/partner that is more in his groove. Sometimes I have to turn it off because she's like chalk on a blackboard. Just one person's opinion...
B-not only is Rand a textbook awful writer, a woman incapable of ceding one clause of her infalliable brilliant God-received revelation to style or brevity, her movie of the Fountainhead is like self-parody of the hystrionic style of the old-fashioned hyperdramatic talkies, worse than the great In Living Color sketch.
And as far as blow a gasket, that was that crap about "I am a safe driver". Although to learn about this ye must repair to old episodes of Howard, who in places was indistinguishable from plagiarist Tom Green but in other places (Black Israelites, with the Imperial March in the background and also thisd one letter we have to describe later) elevated Laughing At Spazzes to a sport, if only a spectator sport.
This one letter was a rabid racist obsessed with Cerebus (three headed hound guarding the gates of the Roman hell, we forget the Greek original he was ripped off from). He starts down a road familiar to observers of hate, the stacking of races. Who is lower, blacks or Jews? Well, after attacking Howard for being Jewish, and after then attacking Robin for being (worse in his cosmology) black, he reveals that the worst-the worst, worse than black or Jewish, worse than Sammy Davis, Jr-was Eric (Fred) Norris, the [cue music!] LATVIAN!!!!!
Felix Deutsch,
Go back to coding and get over it. I'll bet you have a sticker of Calvin pissing on Ford in the rear window of your Chevy truck.
Is there really an honest Libertarian out there? Is there an honest conservative out there? Please name one, any one and I'll cut out my liver and eat it.
Rightists are inherently insincere, lying to sell a scam they think they will profit from. This can be seen, among many other evidences, by their fundamental inability to understand terms and the disgusting comparisons they see fit to make.
The exchange reminded me of the classic conversations between a weary teacher and the class liar. As Boortz's lies got more and more outrageous, Al couldn't help doing the FCC-approved equivalent of 'y'fucking kidding me, right?'
Righties have to lie. An honest debate on the merits of the question at hand is not in their interest because, on logic alone, they would be whipped like a rented mule.
If Boortz is for the Patriot Act, then he's a LINO - Libertarian In Name Only.
kei & yuri,
I don't mind wordy writers. Hell, I'm from Mississippi. We got that whole Faulkner thing going. Difference is, Faulkner was a good writer, so you kinda wanted him to go on for a bit. That's the joy of reading The Sound & The Fury or The Rievers; it's not so much the story he's telling. For Southerners, those stories are all too familiar. It's the beauty of his prose, the fluidity of his words, the magic of the cavnvass he's painting.
Ayn Rand's prose has all the beauty and grace of a brick hitting a pond.
B-our point was that Faulkner had a point. Rand was an airhead in love with the sound of her reasoning made narrative, yolked by the S/R,FE/P crowd.
Concerning honest libertarians, I really think they honestly do believe the Second Ammendment's the most important reindeer of them all and income tax is the tool of the devil. A libertarian friend of mine once waxed wroth over a friend of his who was making two-hundred grand a year and had to pay in something like sixty grand in taxes. Seems she worked 70 hours a week for that bread, too, and my friend thought it was terribly unfair to the poor girl. She was some sort of investment broker.
I asked him if she works so much and doesn't enjoy her job...quit it. If she's working just for the money, well, fuck her. Same excuse strippers use, and I have about as much sympathy (probably less, frankly). And if she's so damn good at her job, can't she figure out how to get herself in a situation to pay less in taxes, or at least pay some sharp accountant to work the magic for her.
And finally, she's bringing home $140,000 a year. The fuck is she bitching about? This same libertarian friend says he thinks highways should be built by the lowest bidders, cops should be private companies and we should do away with the US postal service because FedEx and UPS provide the same services. He also said the 16th Ammendment is unconstitutional for some whack-job reason I absolutelty refuse to go into here and a main plank in the Democrats' platform is getting rid of guns.
He honestly believes all this hoo-hah. Doesn't mean any of it's actually, ya know, factual.
Ding dong the witch is dead.
B-our point was that Faulkner had a point. Rand was an airhead in love with the sound of her reasoning made narrative
Comparing Faulker and Ayn Rand is a bit like comparing (a bad) 1970s progressive rock band or a 1980s "shredder" hair band to Brahams or Wagner.
Just because one has a cult-like following....
I have a copy of Atlas Shrugged, which i use to prop up one corner of an old chair
which my cat likes to sleep in.
so i wouldnt say her writing was COMPLETELY useless.
For those with libertarian friends, tell them there is a libertarian dystopia they can move to. There are no laws and no government. It's name is Sudan.
I have a copy of Atlas Shrugged, which i use to prop up one corner of an old chair
which my cat likes to sleep in.
so i wouldnt say her writing was COMPLETELY useless.
I also have this fantasy about putting a nice big hardcover copy of "Atlas Shrugged" in my knapsack the next time I go to an anti-war rally.
I locate the nearest Freepers/Protest Warrior type with his video camera, snuck up behind him, and pow, right in the back of the head.
Clocking a Freeper upside the head with a copy of Ayn Rand would be worth a third degree assault charge and a few hours of community service, don't you think?
I think that if they ever put out "the collected works of Ayn Rand" it might qualify as first degree assault with a deadly weapon though. We'd be talking about 25 or 30 pounds of it.
I agree with the A-man. The boogeyman of my youth kicked the bucket. My sympathies go to the family, as it does whenever anyone dies.
Beyond that...ehhhhh...*shrug*...
Ricardo-exactly.
Opps...Stuck an apostrophe to its. Too much Jack Daniels this afternoon.
Al does a great job... but I agree that some of Joe Conason's "cool" could rub off on him when talking to these nutcases.
When's Joe going to get his own show on AAR? That would be killer.
The objectivists are the most religous atheists I know.
Go back to coding and get over it. I'll bet you have a sticker of Calvin pissing on Ford in the rear window of your Chevy truck.
No.
I drive a '72 Ford P7b 20M RS with the "R" in the type plate replaced by an "A".
So there.
Ayn Rand's prose has all the beauty and grace of a brick hitting a pond.
Backslider
John Galt's 60-page speech is not merely the climax of Atlas Shrugged; it is the high point of world literature.
Clearly your psycho-epistemology is faulty.
Anonymous: Is there really an honest Libertarian out there? Is there an honest conservative out there? Please name one, any one and I'll cut out my liver and eat it.
I don't want you to mutilate yourself, but I'd like to think I'm an honest person who has primarily self-identified as a libertarian. My brand of libertarianism is simply described as socially liberal, fiscally conservative, and completely anti-authoritarian regarding individual liberties. I believe in personal AND corporate responsibility, which neither Republicans or Democrats in practice seem to hold closely. I tend to side with the GOP on guns, because I don't think there's any way to put that genie back in the bottle, I agree with the Dems on almost all other social issues. I disagree with both parties on drug use, the response to which is the single greatest malevolent diversion of national resources ever conceived.
No party platform is perfect, in my mind, but I think the Dems would greatly benefit by adopting some libertarian ideals.
.
I love it when Boortz says he's not going to play Al Franken's "wordplay" games. As if you have to be some frickin' genius attorney or pomo literary critic to determine that Boortz's statement was flatly false.
Franken's tone was perfect. Gore's tone was perfect at Moveon. Under the circumstances, we need a few more people raising their voices now and then. It's appropriate when you're getting lied to about important things and so many people seem not to notice.
As to Boortz, he's pretty dumb. During the DC sniper shootings he was on tv ridiculing people who were taking precautions. His point was, "You have a greater chance of being struck by lightening than being shot by a sniper." Of course that statement may have been true if you count the whole country over a long period of time. But in Neil's context it was patently ridiculous. If the statement were meaningful, there would have been more people killed by lightening in the DC area than by the snipers over the same period. Here's a clue, Neil, your chances of being hit by lightening go up during a thunder storm. Your chances of being shot by a sniper go up when a sniper's working the neighborhood. What a fucking putz. And, of course, nobody on the tube (CNN, I think) called him on it.
backslider - you know that these clowns aren't just storying - hell, half the time I listened to the Big Dog's tales, it was like listening to my Great Aunt Dorothy in Ft. Smith, storying about the family. No, these idiots lie the same way they breathe, and the only way to stop it is to actually -stop it-. Interrupt it. Grab 'em by the throat, fling 'em against a tree and make them stop. Of course, being civilised, we don't do that - but we are allowed to raise our voices over their natterings and tell them flatly that they are lying. No subtlety is involved.
The only real issue as I can see it with Air America and their crew is that none of them are actually real, honest to God radio people. That's the other part of the damage that Clear Channel and their recording studios have created - real dj's are just about gone, and we notice that a lot, now. Not just the old rock and roll guys, but the ones who knew what they were playing, how to use their voices, how to include - Al doesn't have anybody to learn how to do that near him, and it's been too many years since I even heard of one to recommend. That's mostly what you-all are sensing is wrong, and it's no one's fault except America's.
Wolfman Jack's gone, but does anybody still broadcast over the Mexico border?
SWR's "Assault by AR" - best belly-laugh I've had in a while...
Think I'll get my own copy...
John Galt's 60-page speech is not merely the climax of Atlas Shrugged; it is the high point of world literature.
Clearly your psycho-epistemology is faulty.
Libster | Email | Homepage | 06.05.04 - 5:23 pm | #
Dude, if you're for real, can I have some of what you're smoking? Apparently, it's some knee-bending shit.
An anarchist is just a libertarian who rents.
GWPDA,
Here in Athens we have a college radio station that is quite possibly the worst excuse for radio I've ever heard. Kids who don't know the music they just played, kids who sound like brain-dead gibbons, and absolutely no thought to what's being played. The last good radio station I heard, 97X in Gainesville, Fla., was bought out by - you guessed it - Clear Channel and turned into a right-wing talk radio station.
Tom Petty's last record, The Last DJ is all about the bullshit that is the music business, where pimps and whores run free and people who give a shit about music are ground up like dime hamburgers. The title track is especially telling - "[The DJ] won't play what they say to play" - and the deejays are fucking part of the problem. Them that ain't Maxim-obsessed troglydytes are interchangable voices for interchangable music. The music critics hated it, but what they've forgotten - and I can say this, because I used to be a professional music critic - is they're part of the fuckin' problem! The ones who don't live in eternal green due to jealousy are pretentious pricks without the gumption to write about something that comes from them.
And forget about border blaster stations or pirate radio. The FCC will come down on you like a ton of bricks and (ominous tones) "make an example out of you". No shit, some friends of mine were told those very words by that unelected, unresponsible to the American people body that decides what is and what isn't covered under the First Ammendment. Read that last sentence again, because it's vaugely important.
The right-wing jabbermouths aren't "radio people", either. For all Limbaugh's blubbering about being a "poor boy from Missouri who just wanted to work in radio," it's horseshit. He's a demagouge of the worst stripe, no better than that Nazi-apologist Father Coughlin. And you're right, to play in that field, Al Franken and the rest of the Air America crew has to play just as nasty, which plays into what the GOPranos want. Liberals shriek and scream and obviously can't be rational.
My advice? Turn your fucking radio off. Make mixtapes. Seek out non-major label artists, because the major labels don't give a fuck about you or the musicians. Download the fuck out of music, especially shit you've never heard of.
Sorry. Something of a sore spot with me, this is.
An anarchist is just a libertarian who rents.
The Speculator | Email | Homepage | 06.05.04 - 5:44 pm | #
Clever. I've often said an anarchist is a libertarian in a lower tax bracket. Both are completely selfish, self-obsessed political ideologies which no mature, intelligent adult should pay any mind whatsoever.
Dude, if you're for real, can I have some of what you're smoking? Apparently, it's some knee-bending shit.
Backslider
You and your fellow second-raters, and your failure to acknowledge that A is A, are responsible for the moral cesspool the world has become.
Checking from the poll at Booringtze's website it would appear that 92% of the people who frequent his site believe there is overwhelming evidence to support the notion that Saddam was helping Al Quida(sp?).
How the hell can they claim this when no evidence has been brought forth from the administration to support it? Nor have they used the cowardly way of making public or non-public claims that the evidence is classified, thus allowing them not to reveal it to the public.
Is this not the epitomy of biased judgment?
How about unobjective?
It certainly isn't trustworthy, nor worth taking a stand on if put to the test. And should they choose to do so the stakes should be high enough to make the suffer for making such an incredibly stupid boast.
MYOB'
.
You and your fellow second-raters, and your failure to acknowledge that A is A, are responsible for the moral cesspool the world has become.
Libster | Email | Homepage | 06.05.04 - 5:57 pm | #
Okay, nevermind. I don't want any grass that's gonna make me sound that goddamn goofy.
Libster's funnin' with us...
Just kidding, Backslider. Imitating Objectivists is fun!
Oh. Silly me. But, man...you fucking nailed it. I know a guy that talks just like that. He once told me, completely straight with no funnin' whatsoever, that Atlas Shrugged is greater than all the combined works of Shakesphere, Twain, Joyce and Faulkner combined.
I asked him, "Dude, you've never actually read any of those guys, have you." Then he said the cesspool thing and my brain quit working on me.
I'm a libertarian who believes in the social contract.
Taxes for services = good, pay-for-play = bad
Gentle safety net, subsidized goodies for the underclass (esp. health care & education -- both are necessary for one to become a more successful member of society).
I diverge from the dems over national gun policy (city people shouldn't tell country folk what fun with guns they can and can't have), the drug war, and their being in bed with big media.
You and your fellow second-raters, and your failure to acknowledge that A is A, are responsible for the moral cesspool the world has become.
Didn't know Steve Ditko had internet access!
I fell out of my chair and nearly choked while laughing when I heard Franken give Boortz the smack down. I got a few bruises and I look like someone beat me, but it was worth it. Boortz is a lying fraud. He's no more a libertarian than Ann Coulter or John Fund. And the Gipper passed on, I wonder what movies TCM will air in tribute?
Backslider:"Download the fuck out of music, especially shit you've never heard of."
That's really what the music industry is terrified of. Forget about the downloading of top-100 hits. That's just not that big a deal. You can get that crap anywhere. What the industries goal, is to consolidate the whole market into as tight of a box as possible. Started a few years ago, evidenced by the rise of the mega-radio chains, the amount of promoted music gets pushed tighter and tighter each year.
The big problem with P2P for them, is that it flattens the distribution channels.
What they are absolutly terrified of, is that the next Beatles, the next U2, the next Nirvana, will completly forgoe the labels, and decide to market completly independantly..over the internet..and just ask for donations from the listeners.
Not really concerned with becoming rich, more concerned with keeping them in pizzas, bandwidth and rent, they'll just run donation drives, cranking out a new tune every week or to, maintaining a blog and a whole community....
That would kill the RIAA. It would be bye bye. Because that business model CAN AND DOES work. Look at how much our good host raised a few weeks ago. (All of it..and more deserved by the way. Throw another one after the election.) The donation/community business model, as long as you have your feet on the ground and your eyes on the community, does work.
And it will happen. More than likely by the end of next year.
Back on topic. I heard that Franken thing. I didn't hear him lose his cool. I don't think it's possible for him to lose his cool. He just has that sort of demenor. And to be honest, what Boortz said was totally offensive, at least if it were aimed at me, I'd be libid.
Look, let's be honest: Libertarianism isn't the most dangerous political philosophy of all time, but it's definitely the silliest. It's Anarchy Lite; anarchy for people who don't have the courage of their idiotic convictions.
Karmakin,
When my brother the guitar player and I wax philosophical about the "dream band" we plan to form if we can ever get our lazy asses in gear, we've basically decided to do exactly what you've suggested. No labels, they're no longer neccessary. My current band's putting the finishing touches on a record that's cost us less than $2000 total (recording, mixing, mastering, artwork and reproduction). You can get decent distribution through ADA (to get you in chain stores), and you can make up the rest online. Hell, Weezer put out a record online because they got a better royalty rate on it. Unless you're moving massive quantities, you barely break even on record sales, anyway.
The other option, of course, is one-record deals like Merle Haggard signed with Epitath for If I Could Only Fly or like Southern Culture On The Skids gets. My buddies The Drive-By Truckers told their current label, New West, "Here's what we want and we won't take any less. Take it or leave it. You need us more than we need you."
Blow up your radio.
backslider, I suspect you're actually somebody I used to work for - a serious dj, flung adrift into the world of telecomm - last time we spoke he had to build another pc to store the volume of material he'd acquired. He could never, in open cube offices, conduct a private conversation because HE HAS A RADIO VOICE FROM THE DIAPHRAGM and you could hear him across a football field. He wasn't Gary Owens, but you got the idea that he could still run the station overnight.... I miss radio.
GWPDA,
Nope. While I do have a face for radio, I lack the voice. The thick Mississippi drawl gets in the way. I have, however, done some shows on the aforementioned college station for deejays who were friends. I was pleasently surprised when some callers said I was better than most deejays. Course, that's like being told you're the prettiest Denny's waitress, but I'll take whatever I can get.
Oh. Silly me. But, man...you fucking nailed it. I know a guy that talks just like that. He once told me, completely straight with no funnin' whatsoever, that Atlas Shrugged is greater than all the combined works of Shakesphere, Twain, Joyce and Faulkner combined.
I asked him, "Dude, you've never actually read any of those guys, have you." Then he said the cesspool thing and my brain quit working on me.
Backslider
Objectivists are pretty easy to copy because they're more or less a cult, so they've got their own distinctive jargon handed down from the Leader, only certain categories of permissible thoughts, and so on.
For a movement that fancies itself on the philosophical vanguard, they are pretty ignorant. Along the lines of what you said about your friend, Objectivists like to do things like issue sweeping condemnations of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, when none of them, including Rand, seems to have read it.
Backslider:I'm not even talking about doing records online. I'm talking about a constant studio-online presence.
Namely, focusing almost completly on the music, not so much putting together albums, but more like EP discs, more accurately individual tracks, a new track or two released every month or so to keep interest high....
Karmakin,
I can see that. I miss the days of singles, when people put out a couple good songs at a time, rather than an album with one or two good tunes and a whoooole lot of filler.
The only problem I see is that a constant online prescence might take away from what I consider the heart and soul of music: live performances. I've got a couple of friends who are die-hard tapers. They record damn near every show they go to, and they've gotten some amazing sounding stuff from the likes of Neil Young, Warren Zevon, R.E.M. and others, plus they've made a bunch of recordings of both my band and my brother's band.
I dig it, personally. For the band, it serves two purposes. One, it lets you track your progress and growth as a band. Two, it's a cheap way to have a physical product for folks who may not be hip to the online thing or have access to it.
My band's first record was a recording of a radio show we did, and I think it's got more soul than the record we did in the studio. It's something to think about, especially for young bands without the scratch to do either a studio recording or put together a home studio.
In any event, it's another way to get music to people - and money directly to the artist - without having to deal with the leeches in the music industry.
justathought
BTW, I wasn't totally convinced you were a troll. And you have a perfect right to state your opinion of the story, but I just wanted to point out that the right wing takes subjective judgments and states them as fact all the time. They also like to take someone speaking with passion (Al Gore) and pretend that because he is not speaking with a monotone (and they criticize him for that as well) he is insane. Never focusing on what they are saying, only on what they think is the "right" way to say it.
It is also different to calmly write here what you think about how someone one should or should not manage his disagreements and arguments with someone on live radio who is dodging, evading, changing the subject, and using other techniques to try and throw off the other person. I spotted several techniques attempted by Boortz to not admit his lie.
I wasn't a debater in college. I don't like to argue, I don’t like confrontation. I know that some people do and they spend a lot of energy to "win" the argument. Will that winning of the argument ever change someone’s mind? I doubt it. But I have been inspired to not just sit back and ignore the wacko right wing pundits (not that you are one!).
I used to think that paying attention to Hannity, Rush and Savage just gave them power and that people who were sane and balanced wouldn't even bother to listen to them. But I've come to realize that they are having a corrosive effect on the population. People are given encouragement for their greedy, hate-filled views. They are given misrepresented, specious arguments that they can parrot back and if no one there to hammer them down they are encouraged to keep thinking their rot. And, since no one hammers them down they start to make their way into the mainstream media. (see the GREAT analysis of this in "Follow the bouncing smear" below) I hate to spend my energy on these idiots because it seems like I’m just playing into their trap, playing on their turf where they have the mike and they frame the argument to meet their agenda. “Is Reagan the greatest President since Lincoln or since Washington?”
I find it interesting that Al's show does focus on the lies because they are so clear. He could also show people the techniques that Rush and others use. Techniques like "the straw man", the partial argument, the exaggeration the “funny” name calling. All hiding under the “hey it’s a joke. Free speech!” Argument. You can call them most easily on the lies because they can be very objective. When they get slippery (like Bush) it is harder to pin the lies directly on them. Don’t use Clinton as the slick one, Bush is. He hasn’t had a single real out and out LIE stick to him directly. He always has an excuse or a method to distance himself from the actual lie. Either he says he was “mislead” by others or he did know even know what was happening. This is plausible deniability taken to the next level. Nothing is written down.
con't
No email. No tapes. Nothing. Did he read the memo? No. He doesn’t read. Then he can use the “I don’t recall that conversation” dodger easier. It is Clarke’s word or O’Neil’s word against the president. It is easier to discredit a person than a piece of paper that will stay around forever. Cheney and Rumsfield learned A LOT from the Nixon White House.
I fault Al only for interrupting Boortz ten seconds into the requested thirty seconds, though I might have found it irresistible to do the same. Not a major failing in context: game, set, match to Franken.
By the way, I do wonder where Limbaugh and Boortz go to acquire those orotund, fruity voices. Are they channeling The Great Gildersleeve (and apologies for showing my age)?
Also, the recurring references to Democratic opposition to civil rights in 1964 drive me up the wall as breathtaking examples of cynical chutzpah: the old Southern bigots found a much more sympathetic home among the Rs of the 70s and beyond.
"conservative intelligensia " - talk about an oxymoron. Boortz is a first-class asshole - a third rate Rush Lamebrain clone - and the fact that this guy has gained a legion of listeners (however brain-dead they are) by polluting the airwaves with his filth speaks volumes about the disease which is infecting this country. Speaking of filth, Ronald Reagan has died. I think I'll go take a dump in his honor.
I thought for a fraction of a second that Boortz might have been about to show a sense of humor. He was saying something like, "Al, you're better than that! You're smarter, you're faster..." but he didn't finish with "and Dog-gone it..."
Lost opportunity.
I'm a Libertarian. Boortz is an ignorant raving lunatic Nazi jackass and does not represent the Libertarian Party. Don't judge Libertarians based on him...PLEASE!
You know its bad when comparing Reagan to the evil moron we have now I'd take Reagan in a heart beat. I didn't know it was possible to loath a president more than I loathed Reagan. Bush makes me long for him. At least Nancy Reagan started making Ron act a bit responsible toward the end of his 2nd term. She even campaigns for stem cell research.
Reagan really sucked. W is much worse.
Please don't flame me for saying this.
I was just thinking that Reagan's death may be as big a sob fest for the wingnuts as when Stalin died was for the Soviets.
Another distraction for a week.
I thought Al was funny as hell. He knows how to point out a lie to a winger and get them to acknowledge it.
Thats no small feat with some of these bozos
KAAY - Little Rock - Clyde Clifford
Midnight to morning , LP rock .70's .
And that's the way it wuz .100,000 watts...
I download my wall of lp's to me
brain . Keeps me sane . Fugg this new
age ginker twaddle . You made it, you
eat it .
boogie chillin'z .
Libertarians like
roads but don't wanna pay for'm .
A 'ronnie' may take three wipes.imfho.
The main thing I give Liberatarian's props for is their staunch opposition to the War on Drugs. Oh, and being pro-immigration. Wanna work? Come on in!
I love Al Franken, but I don't see that exchange with Boortz as one of the highlights of his radio career.
I don't think Al "lost it" or anything, I just didn't find it very interesting or funny.
The exchange with O'Reilly on CSPAN was much more entertaining.
Read Judgement Day by Nathaniel Branden if you want the skinny on Ayn Rand and her crew. This first-hand account shows that while they have some good ideas, they are crazy as dogs. They rationalize away all of their destructive behavior (adultery, etc).
>Libertarians like
roads but don't wanna pay for'm .
Exactly.
And Franken was superb. And I suggest that everybody who second guesses Franken get a reel together and get on the radio right now.
Because he doing it....taking on the bullies and liars, and you aren't.
And none of you are particularly good critics, either.
ayn rand also makes great kindling.
Backslider and Orbitron,
I consider myself a libertarian of sorts. And yes, I care about guns and taxes. I also hate corporate welfare (including the military-industrial complex), the RIAA, and Neil Boortz. I think the main motive behind most government intervention in the market is to subsidize the profits of large corporations in one way or another.
I think the libertarians you've been exposed to must have been Randroids and followers of Uncle Milty Friedman: apologists for big business, in other words, whose definition of the "free market" is "anything that makes Bill Gates rich."
The libertarians who get most of the attention, sure enough, are pot-smoking Republicans.
But you'd be surprised how many libertarians there are who think the present corporate economy is organized around government subsidies and regulatory cartelization, and believe the Fortune 500 are corporate welfare queens. That's true of the left wing of Murray Rothbard's followers; it's true of a lot of Georgist libertarians in the tradition of Albert Nock and Frank Chodorov; and it's true of individualist anarchists like me.
I'm a socialist, but I love libertatians. Any one into pot and sodomy is OK in my book ...
i actually have a lot of respect for niels bohr. i don't know why yall gotta rag on him like this.
libertarians do have some good ideas, but a lot of them really are just throwing up their hands and saying "i don't want to think about it".
we have a problem with our legal system. i don't know when it started but somewhere along the line we started making laws that were intended to make it more difficult to break other laws. gun control laws are justified on these grounds- so are drug laws. this approach gets unnecessarily complicated very quickly and should be abandoned. the law should only kick in after someone has been harmed. i know, this system sucks if you are a murder victim, but every system sucks if you are a murder victim.
My little brother and his family paid us a visit last year shortly after he became unemployed for the first time since he graduated from college twenty years ago. He announced that he decided he was a libertarian, something I dallied with back around 1974. We had a mild dispute over the philosophy. Next day, he left for West Virginia to file for an extension of his unemployment compensation. Everybody seems to want smaller government except for his part of it.
I hate to rag on Libertarians (okay, I don't) but there basic philosophy is just silly. Ah, if only the government would wither away, then we'd all be totally free. Free, of course, from the power of the military, the church, and corporate power. Wotta paradise that would be.
"Libertarian" is not a real ideology. These are the liars who quote this idea that "government" cannot be trusted to repeat the Cincinnatan Promise-but they will if you would only throw a vote away to them. An understanding of history, especially the "populist" and anti-"government" (anti-elite) appeals of Restoration seeking monarchs (and of Nazis) will cure anyone of it.
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