I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I thought he already wouldn't be eligible for communion, as a result of fucking dogs.
See why I've converted to Judaism?
For the last time: The New York Times is NOT a Liberal Newspaper!
Ahh! A miracle!
It makes me feel so good that the Vatican can be summoned like goddamned Voltron every time the wingers are in a poltical pinch.
Hey, did you hear that the Dallas Morning News is breaking a big story about how the priest abuse scandal is global in scope? As in, the Vatican was willing to relocate pedophile priests to other countries to dodge their arrests? And they're going to run a long series about it this week?
Why couldn't it be as simple as kissing rome's ass? Nobody ever accused jpII of liberalism, and he seems to be finally not getting any younger...
Oh, and taking the media attention away from the sex scandal sure makes an old man smile...
Atrios:
about painting a general picture of an amoral man with no core beliefs.
But that's how the vast majority of Rethugs are! Probably Bush as well. I very much doubt that he's born-again or that he was even born the first time. It takes more humanity than he has.
For the Republican right morality is something to do with pregnancy and having women stay at home. Everything else is for the winner to take and determine.
Tonight is one of those nights when I'm glad that I can easily leave this place when it collapses. Sorry for those of you who can't. You can come and visit, though.
On the other hand, personally presiding over the state executions of 100+ inmates is in perfect harmony with the Catholic Church's core belief in the sanctity of life.
Texacute the motherfuckers! Cry, Tammy, cry!
..yeah perhaps if w ever actually followed jesus' words...especially the part about no killin'...
(secular humanist, by choice)
PEdophilia is everywhere, sad to say, and it's often simply hushed up. I knew of a pedophile at the public library in San Francisco. When he was outed, they simply gave him a job in the back room, away from the public.
I can't get the idea out of my mind that what binds many world political leaders and opinion-makers together is a taste for sex with children.
When some guy who obviously ought to stand up to Bush--or whomever--fails to do so, I often wonder if there are pictures of him engaging in something along those lines. That'd be a great way to keep people "loyal"...a sort of MAD system.
Everyone who meets a priest or bishop should ask about the grave danger of giving communion to Schwarzenegger and Giuliani.
As in, the Vatican was willing to relocate pedophile priests to other countries to dodge their arrests? And they're going to run a long series about it this week?
Kerry needs to pull a reverse Henry IV.
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is worth missing a mass or two.
Three guys walk into a bar: a priest, a homosexual and a pedophile...
No---wait---that's all one guy....
Tonight is one of those nights when I'm glad that I can easily leave this place when it collapses. Sorry for those of you who can't. You can come and visit, though.
I try not to be paranoid about this stuff but the thought of the Vatican basically acting like Meta Turbo Republican Party scares the living shit out of me.
Oh, and check out this little OT doozy. (Sorry, I kind of like Christopher Hitchens...)
Tonight is one of those nights when I'm glad that I can easily leave this place when it collapses.
I hear ya. I'm actually eligible for dual citizenship...I need to get right on that.
Of course, we'll probably pull a good portion of the world down with us. Perhaps I could emigrate to Antarctica...
OT:
Expose from CIA's Anonymous rips Shrub's counter-terrorism policy
This is the same Anonymous source who wrote "Through Our Enemies' Eyes", which is a look at bin Laden/the radical Muslim movement and why they're bent on the destruction of America/the West.
Sounds interesting.
i think atrios is right. this whole "issue" isn't really going anywhere with real catholics, i think. it's an obvious ruse by the sclm, who have never been the least bit interested in doctrinal minutia before and obviously don't know anything about it. no doubt they are just doing this so they can "feel superior to democrats", in the immortal words of beinart.
Antarctica sounds great! I like skiing. Well, anything is beginning to sound great right now, with the exception of Saudi Arabia and similar places. I'm dreaming of a little cabin somewhere near the North Pole right now.
See why I've converted to Judaism?
Madonna
Shouldn't that be "Esther?"
You might think that this was overstating matters, even if in one important sense—because Chernobyl was morally an accident, albeit in some ways a "systemic" one—it is actually understating them.
There you have it: alcoholic syntax at its finest.
I already had my say about Hitchens when this was posted here a few days ago, so I won't bore y'all again. (In fact, I wouldn't be boring you at this moment if goddamn Amazon weren't performing maintenance on their seller pages!)
The whole thing is a load of crap. As others have pointed out, pro-choice Republicans are somehow never coming up, and the death penalty is similarly a nonissue, for some reason.
I also wonder: What is the Church's motivation in this? I know the GOP's reasons, of course. But I cannot recall in all my 32 years (and I spent 12 of those in catholic high schools) anything resembling all these politically motivated threats of withholding Communion.
Were I cynical, I might even be willing to entertain the notion that it is to distract attention away from the Church's own sins.
Oh, wait. I am cynical.
Echidne, if Stephen Harper (Canada's answer to the Shrub) gets to be Prime Minister in 10 days, can I come visit you wherever you are and plot to go wherever you're going? I'm eligible for UK citizenship, having two grandparents who came from Scotland. I'm also very visa-eligible for the US, but I'm not sure if I want to go there now, as to me that would be like leaving home to go to what home will become, no offense intended.
I would like to see organised religion get out of politics, though. Yeah, like that's ever going to happen. Just try to run for public office anywhere in either Canada or the UK (or most anywhere else) as an out-of-the-closet atheist.
wow, old hat. that column didn't suck at all. is hitch back on food or something?
But I cannot recall in all my 32 years (and I spent 12 of those in catholic high schools) anything resembling all these politically motivated threats of withholding Communion.
1.) The Vatican sank "liberation theology."
2.) The Vatican sent a shadow Bishop to harass Hunthausen in Seattle.
3.) The Catholic church has always been in the forefront of the "pro-life" movement. O'Connor in New York always had weasel praise for Randall Terry.
I call dibs on gay-marrying Echidne in Canada if Bush wins...that's legal in Canada, right?
Well, I thought Hitchens was almost good again in that article that old hat linked to. Maybe he is off the wagon? Or is it on the wagon? I can never remember these English idioms.
He is essentially advocating the boring sensible police approach to fighting terrorism, the one I wanted to see from the very beginning, because a) it works and b) the terrorists don't want it; they want a glorious war with lots of blood. And Georgie Porgie is giving them exactly what they want plus new recruits.
it's an obvious ruse by the sclm, who have never been the least bit interested in doctrinal minutia before and obviously don't know anything about it.
I can't wait 'til the campaign heats up, and the SCLM are asking Kerry whether the celebrant or the lector sits on the Scamnum, and to expound on Anselm's ontological proof for God, and to assure voters that he's never been an exponent of the Passagian heresy.
Meanwhile, aksing Bush to recite the Ten Commandments--which I'll bet a Franklin he couldn't do if his life depended on it--will never occur to them.
SWR--I know that the Church has always been driving the pro-life thing, and that the Vatican has long tried to kill liberation theology (a lot of priests and nuns in Central and South America right now would be surprised to hear that it has been "sunk" I have to say).
My point was specifically about wielding the withholding of Communion as a bludgeon. That is very odd, if not unprecedented.
Are you a woman, old hat? If not, you can't gay-marry me.
OT, but the Guardian reports another book where an intelligence professional points out what a fucking idiot Tipsy is is on its way... choice passage:
Anonymous, who published an analysis of al-Qaida last year called Through Our Enemies' Eyes, thinks it quite possible that another devastating strike against the US could come during the election campaign, not with the intention of changing the administration, as was the case in the Madrid bombing, but of keeping the same one in place.
"I'm very sure they can't have a better administration for them than the one they have now," he said.
"One way to keep the Republicans in power is to mount an attack that would rally the country around the president."
Are you a woman, old hat? If not, you can't gay-marry me.
No, whoops! Well, hook me up with one of your friends, man, woman, doesn't matter. Anything to get a Canadian green card. 
Dick Cheney the other day cited The Weekly Standard ARTICLE AS THE BEST EVIDENCE of a saddam-al queda link. How disgusting and low can you get. He helps set up a special office to cherry pick intelligence and then dumps a dung heap of raw, unsubstantiated rumors on a conservative rag and calls it corroboration and evidence.
These days, I am happier than ever to be engaged to a woman with dual citizenship. If all goes awry, Berlin awaits us!
My point was specifically about wielding the withholding of Communion as a bludgeon. That is very odd, if not unprecedented.
I'm not sure, is it? Or is the media just playing it up. Would they be printing so much about it if Edwards or Dean had gotten the nomination?
Well, I thought Hitchens was almost good again in that article that old hat linked to.
Yeah, it's fine, content-wise...garbled language aside. The problem is that Hitchens has lost any claim to a serious moral perspective on these issues. When he talks about this stuff, it doesn't increase his moral standing...instead, it DEBASES the information he's trying to present. Truth, in his hands, becomes equivocal until it's confirmed elsewhere. Which makes him kind of useless, as a journalist and as a human being.
Just my opinion, though.
I particularly relish these threads when they reach that magical point at which the single guys -- with no families, low-level jobs, and presumably little responsibility in their communities -- start bragging about how "easy" it would be to just "leave" the country because Americans are so very "stupid," "naïve," or "misguided" in their political views.
Then the many anonymous readers with "dual citizenship" -- (I love how many of these there are around -- chime in with how pleased they are that they have "another" place to go. Should "things" get "really bad."
So . . . go. You can read Atrios from anywhere. And get your porn and the latest Playstation discs, too. Everything you presumably need.
Plenty of adults will stay behind to, well, muddle through.
Somehow, though, despite the U.S. being a huge con job on the poor and the dirtiest Imperium the world has ever seen, I doubt many will head "back" to Switzerland or Holland or India.
Just a hunch . . .
Sorry, old hat, I have no powers in Canada. But I can live anywhere in the European Union quite legally, and I could probably adopt a passel of you all. That way you'd be legal, too.
SWR--I'm just saying, it seems new and more extreme than I have seen. And while it is fueled by Kerry's nomination, of course, it's cascading across the nation, to the extent that the bishop in Denver actually suggested denying Communion to ANYONE who votes for a pro-choice candidate.
That is truly getting out of hand. Anyone raised Catholic knows how serious a threat that is, spiritually speaking. They're basically talking about sending you to hell, if you are a strict believer.
David Patterson, I do sympathize with what you're saying, and if I was an American citizen I wouldn't consider leaving. But I'm here on a green card, and that's sort of scary, given some of the things in the Patriots Act.
About Hitchens, Philalethes, I agree with you that he has sold out a long time ago. That's why I was surprised to see that he was actually trying to write something semi-sensible.
Somehow, though, despite the U.S. being a huge con job on the poor and the dirtiest Imperium the world has ever seen, I doubt many will head "back" to Switzerland
The problem is its not that easy to get EU citizenship.
I'd move to Switzerland tomorrow if I could find a job and get a green card (or whatever the equivalent is).
People who do have the option (think Gwynneth Paltrow, Madonna, Robert Crumb, Johnny Depp) can and do leave.
I'm not saying I "hate America," but there are still places I'd rather live if given the opportunity.
Switzerland would be sort of interesting for someone who's into the Italian Renaissance.
Oh, and who woke up the Times?
Show Us the Proof
...When it comes to 9/11, someone in the Bush administration has indeed drawn the connection to Iraq: the vice president. Mr. Cheney has repeatedly referred to reports that Mohamed Atta met in Prague in April 2001 with an Iraqi intelligence agent. He told Tim Russert of NBC on Dec. 9, 2001, that this report has "been pretty well confirmed." If so, no one seems to have informed the C.I.A., the Czech government or the 9/11 commission, which said it did not appear to be true. Yet Mr. Cheney cited it, again, on Thursday night on CNBC.
Mr. Cheney said he had lots of documents to prove his claims. We have heard that before, but Mr. Cheney always seems too pressed for time or too concerned about secrets to share them. Last September, Mr. Cheney's adviser, Mary Matalin, explained to The Washington Post that Mr. Cheney had access to lots of secret stuff. She said he had to "tiptoe through the land mines of what's sayable and not sayable" to the public, but that "his job is to connect the dots."
The message, if we hear it properly, is that when it comes to this critical issue, the vice president is not prepared to offer any evidence beyond the flimsy-to-nonexistent arguments he has used in the past, but he wants us to trust him when he says there's more behind the screen. So far, when it comes to Iraq, blind faith in this administration has been a losing strategy.
No, whoops! Well, hook me up with one of your friends, man, woman, doesn't matter. Anything to get a Canadian green card.
Old Hat
I'm going overland. I have money stored in my backpack and some food ready to go. If we're attacked, they'll probably shut down all major cities. The government, especially this administration, can't prevent an attack. All they can ever do is just shut everything down with you stuck in it. Get yourself a backpack and prepare to hoof it out, if need be.
David Patterson:
Your post drips with condescension. Well done. And you manage to insinuate that various folks are hooked on the digital porn. Again, masterful argumentation.
But let me just address the only substantive point of your caustic post.
Is your argument that becoming an expatriate is never a valid decision?
Tell that to Stefan Heym. Tell it to James Baldwin. Tell it Henry Miller and Ernest Hemingway.
I'm sure you know much better than these people. Hell, they aren't even "adults," right?
Well, it does sound like Hitch has sobered up. Good for him. I have to admit I've always liked him too, though he did go kind of wacky for a while there.
Now if he would just come out and admit the whole excellent iraq adventure was a fiasco I'd be really impressed.
While he's at it he can call for chimpy's impeachment and I'll be really happy.
SWR--I'm just saying, it seems new and more extreme than I have seen.
I think that *perhaps* the religious distinction in the US isn't Protestant vs. Catholic vs. Jewish anymore.
It's secular/liberal vs. fundamentalist/conservative.
Catholics no longer have the check on them that they used to have. They're not worried about nasty, anti-Catholic WASPs telling them they're unAmurricun.
These fundamentalist WASPs are now encouraging Catholics to get involved in the political process.
OT, with apologies: open revolt in the Intelligence Community:
A senior US intelligence official is about to publish a bitter condemnation of America's counter-terrorism policy, arguing that the west is losing the war against al-Qaida and that an "avaricious, premeditated, unprovoked" war in Iraq has played into Osama bin Laden's hands.
Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror, due out next month, dismisses two of the most frequent boasts of the Bush administration: that Bin Laden and al-Qaida are "on the run" and that the Iraq invasion has made America safer.
In an interview with the Guardian the official, who writes as "Anonymous", described al-Qaida as a much more proficient and focused organisation than it was in 2001, and predicted that it would "inevitably" acquire weapons of mass destruction and try to use them.
Echidne, adopt me, adopt me, adopt me!!
David Patterson:
To quote Rod Steiger in The Big Knife, "Has it ever occured to you that the embroidery of your speech is completely out of proportion with anything you have to say?"
I like how you put words like "dual citizenship" and "things" in quotes, to show that none of us are fooling a bright boy like you.
Perhaps there are more people with dual citizenship here because--dare I say it?--people who are first- or second- or third-generation Americans have a somewhat better grasp of what constitutes a functional society. Perhaps, to them, personal freedom is an actual goal, instead of a hypocritical platitude spouted by xenophobic drones.
Save your "hunches" for your visits to your local glory hole, David. Or Russian Roulette.
Totally OT on David Patterson's post, but I'm not a single man, either. I have a very well paying job, I have never looked at porn anywhere and I don't own a playstation. But I am a liberal, and that is a dangerous thing to be these days, probably.
Get yourself a backpack and prepare to hoof it out, if need be.
Good thing I got four legs, eh?
fourlegsgood: anytime, as long as you like dogs and snakes. I have plenty of both.
Sure, just as long as the snakes don't eat my elderly cat.
What kind of snakes?
Is your argument that becoming an expatriate is never a valid decision?
Tell that to Stefan Heym. Tell it to James Baldwin. Tell it Henry Miller and Ernest Hemingway.
I'm wondering why he coupled Holland and Switzerland and India, one very, very wealthy and conservative first world country, one sort of wealthy, liberal first world country that's starting to get touchy about immigrants, and one giant third world country.
What precisely do they have in common?
David Patterson seems to believe that there's Amurrrica and the rest of the world.
Truth is there are some places in the world with a higher standard of living and more freedom than Amurrrica and some with much less. There are places I'd leave for in a heartbeat (i.e. Switzerland) and places I'd piss my pants even thinking about living (Saudi Arabia).
And I'm wondering what David Patterson thinks of those Americans who move to Israel and get heavily involved in politics.
Are they all porn addicts and immature?
(Ick. Read before posting.)
I actually think that the media's one-sidedness on this Catholicism issue will backfire on the GOPpers.
Although the argument has been made that this isn't about Catholic voters, who aren't going to change their votes because the church puts the squeeze on politicians. (Heck, we've all had to deal with moral blackmail from the local parish to donate to the harvest festival.)
This is about persuading protestant voters that Kerry isn't even a 'good idolator'. And getting out those Bush-lovin' God-botherers who were thinking of staying at home.
That's why I was surprised to see that he was actually trying to write something semi-sensible.
I think the explanation is not that he's wised up, but that he's an opportunist who'll try to position himself at the tiptop of what ever he considers the moral high ground at the moment.
But maybe not. Still, it'll be a LONG time before I trust anything he says.
SWR--I think you are dead right, and the fundie vs. secular thing is not just the US's problem. It is the global crisis.
As the people of America are fooled into thinking that it's us (US) vs them (Muslims), the true fight is between fundies of any sort (Christian, Muslim, whatever) vs. those who recognize that the Enlightenment has occurred and had some good things to offer.
Phila--about DP: yes.
Somehow, though, despite the U.S. being a huge con job on the poor and the dirtiest Imperium the world has ever seen, I doubt many will head "back" to Switzerland or Holland or India.
Just a hunch . . .
David Patterson
You're right. I do have a mid-level job but I love it. I would have made much more of it if I didn't realize much earlier that it was pointless. Apparently, you have much at stake in all this so muddle through. I'm not writing nor have I ever about marrying away from this. I plan to survive on my own and I'm someone who can.
And I'm wondering what David Patterson thinks of those Americans who move to Israel and get heavily involved in politics.
Are they all porn addicts and immature?
Gack! hassidic porn! must go hose out my brain now.
Gack! hassidic porn! must go hose out my brain now.
I don't think most of the right-wing settlers are Hassidic. But I doubt they're into porn.
I was just wondering if David Patterson considered people who leave the US for conservative reason (religion) are legit when he seems to think people who leave for leftist reasons (hate Bush/Patriot act) are simply dipshits.
Old Hat: Al Jazeerah apparently has a copy of the Abu Ghraib stuff that we haven't yet seen. They're sitting on it, because it doesn't serve any purpose other than to inflame, right now. But if it looks as if the US isn't making a serious effort to investigate this -- to the top -- then it'll come out. Live and unexpurgated.
Oh. BTW, David Patterson. Are you aware that Paul Bremer and Ricard Perle both own property in France?
Or is that OK in your view because they have lots of $$$?
fourlegsgood, the snakes are mostly imaginary at this point (they are late snakes, so to speak), but the dogs are very real and they do chase cats. But maybe you can live in the basement? I always wanted to have an adult son (daughter?) living in the basement, like all those people whose children come back when they find that independence doesn't mean what they think it means.
But if it looks as if the US isn't making a serious effort to investigate this -- to the top -- then it'll come out.
So it will come out.
I already know about the David Patterson's of America. Huge mortages, wife and children clinging. The good life. Why, I would want to hang onto that, too. Why, send the children of the poor to fight for it. Expect the lower classes to fight for your Southern California lifestyle. Yeah. Stay in and muddle through.
Looks like Mr Patterson is a practitioner of the old "spew and hide."
I still hope to live abroad, for some time at least (and this will like also include teaching on Indian reservations "within" the US), regardless of what happens.
I am always astonished by people who seem to wear their own parochialism as a badge of honor, and who deem those who want to be citizens of the world to be evil or weak or stupid.
I was just wondering if David Patterson considered people who leave the US for conservative reason (religion) are legit when he seems to think people who leave for leftist reasons (hate Bush/Patriot act) are simply dipshits.
I don't think David Patterson "considers" much of anything. Once he's made a few condescending remarks that he ADMITS are based on "hunches" and "presumptions," he's shot his proverbial wad. He's a simple enough device and I'm sure any one of us could build a mechanical version of him in a matter of hours.
Well, it does sound like Hitch has sobered up. Good for him. I have to admit I've always liked him too, though he did go kind of wacky for a while there.
Hitch may have a 'Homage to Catalonia' moment, to the extent that he may realise that no matter how much he despises 'Islamofascism', it doesn't legitimise being in cahoots w/ these fuckers. Enemy of my enemy != my friend. You'd have thought he'd have worked that one out from reading the book, though.
He's a simple enough device and I'm sure any one of us could build a mechanical version of him in a matter of hours.
Correction.
We'd draw up the plans and have some Amurricun manfacturer assemble parts of Patterson 1.0 that have been built in China at subminimum wage.
Sending jobs into exile is "mature."
pedophilia. a crime of the establishment.
ghwbush - just ask c a fitts.
jack kemp - same source
warren buffett - read the franklin cover-up. a hair curler.
it is the crime that really won't be punished. principally because it is the aristocrats that really pursue it.
i wonder what the punisment for pedophilia is in wahhabist saudi arabia? do they make you a saudi prince? or do they lop off your genitals?
in the united states of amerika, you get sworn into congress or the oval office.
what a great country.
Sorry SWR...somehow it slipped my mind that the adults were back in charge.
Oh baby!
I'm out of here. Good night, all.
I wrote months ago that those like Patterson would be screaming to just kill kill kill the brown skins, just kill them because we have our lifestyle. Don't tell us about it, just kill them. And oh, by the way, we don't expect to pay for it. And oh, by the way, we wont do the fighting.
Patterson's a wank. And I am not all that young, and I have a tremendous mortgage on a small house that I love (and spent today fixing), and an impending marriage (the word "impending" doesn't seem quite right, as it is usually followed by the word "doom"). And my partner in no way holds me down--in fact, because of her, I spent a month in New Zealand a while back, a place I'd likely never have gone otherwise.
Anyway. DP is a stupid prick.
Sorry SWR...somehow it slipped my mind that the adults were back in charge.
Actually here's an article that reminds me why I don't totally hate Ameican culture.
We seem to be one of the few cultures where you can actually assimilate if you're a foreigner.
But there are things that I do hate about it. The idea that anybody would want to live anywhere else is a fool is one of them.
Hemingway and Henry Miller didn't hate America. They just had more freedom to do what they wanted to do in Europe.
Same goes for James Baldwin. Perhaps even more so, as a queer black man in the 50s...
Same goes for James Baldwin. Perhaps even more so, as a queer black man in the 50s...
Does anybody remember when even leftist Europeans who hated the American government (i.e. John Lennon) wanted to live here?
Now our elite (Gwynneth Paltrow and Johnny Depp for example) want to get out.
What happened?
Same goes for James Baldwin. Perhaps even more so, as a queer black man in the 50s...
If I had been black in the 1950s and wanted to marry a white person I probably would have left the US. Immature?
Aren't there equivalent reasons now?
Gay marriage, for example?
Aren't there equivalent reasons now?
Not wanting to get your legs blown off?
If I had been black in the 1950s and wanted to marry a white person I probably would have left the US. Immature?
Aren't there equivalent reasons now?
Gay marriage, for example?
SWR
I can only speak for myself, but as a gay person, I truly hate HATE this country now.
SWR--Exactly. And the argument can be taken farther, as in the cases of Hemingway and Miller. They weren't circumventing laws, but rather America's stultifying mores. And getting out to NZ last year while Americans were flying flags all over their SUVs was extremely refreshing and liberating.
It reminded me that there is much sanity in the world. And even rejuvenated me to fight harder upon my return.
Given the poisonous cultural context of the US right now, I'd not be surprised if there were another great American literary movement brewing somewhere abroad.
Not wanting to get your legs blown off?
I'm just thinking of less overtly political reasons, more cultural.
The USA is a very conservative, very religious society (and becoming more so).
Why would a conservative who wants American culture to be pro-God/anti-Gay/anti-drugs/anti-dissent begrudge someone who wanted to move to Canada to marry a same sex lover, for example?
That was pretty much the deal in the 20s with the expats. Hemingway had no desire to change American culture but he wanted to be able to drink legally (among other things).
OK,let the puritans have the US for a couple of decades and go elsewhere.
They weren't circumventing laws, but rather America's stultifying mores.
Specifically alcohol. Prohibition.
If I just want to have a bottle of wine after I finish the 27th revision of Farwell to Arms, do I really have to march in the streets just to get a decent Chianti?
And getting out to NZ last year while Americans were flying flags all over their SUVs was extremely refreshing and liberating.
Interesting article in the Seattle Times today about one of the WNBA players.
She posed nude for some fine art magazine in Australia (where it's no big deal and even her parents approved).
Its an issue even in a fairly tolerant place like Seattle. In Australia the whole tight assed American attitude about it is considered ludicrous.
Once again, I don't think Australia is a better country than the US (it's pretty racist) but what if I just like posing nude for fine art magazines? Why the hell would I want to be here?
I'm just thinking of less overtly political reasons, more cultural.
The USA is a very conservative, very religious society (and becoming more so).
I don't think it's becoming more "conservative." They're not "conservative."
They also neglect to mention that Christianity, as practiced properly, is a peaceful religion, and unPresident Nero is perhaps the most violent, aggressive, bloodthirsty warmonger ever to hold public office in this country.
I don't think it's becoming more "conservative." They're not "conservative."
Puritanical?
Unless fundies are "conservative" or wing nuts are "conservative" and an appethetic and ignorant American populace that doesn't even bother to vote are "conservative."
if bush winds up with another term i will go to mexico. and i will never come back.
I don't want to get into any debate about "proper" or "improper" Christianities. Religions and their visions of god and the universe are (if I do say so) rorshach blots onto which people project what they need to see.
As far as the terminology goes, I do like Reich's neologism "radcon" for its denotation, but it's likely too ugly a word to enter common currency.
Puritanical?
SWR
America is actually becoming more liberal. What we see now is manufactured.
Unless fundies are "conservative" or wing nuts are "conservative" and an appethetic and ignorant American populace that doesn't even bother to vote are "conservative."
Have you ever read Richard Hofstadter's "The Age of Reform."
He has a pretty intelligent take on why the US didn't become facist in the 1930s.
Decentralization.
Are we still decentralized enough to resist the puritan tidal wave sweeping the world right now?
Will I still be able to live in lower Manhattan and not be affected by the primitive fundy wingnuts in the rest of the country?
Or are we becoming such a unified, generic culture (Walmart, Internet, drug laws, Patriot Act) that there can't be any liberal enclaves within the US?
America is actually becoming more liberal. What we see now is manufactured.
I'm not sure I know what this means.
Are we still decentralized enough to resist the puritan tidal wave sweeping the world right now?
Look, I had a winger tell me the other day, he didn't have a problem with me because "my kind" wasn't reproducing. They've teamed up with our American Taliban so they're very vocal way past their actual numbers. Remember, most Americans who can don't vote. Yes, we will survive in the long run. But short term, it's going to get very iffy. I think that what we're seeing now is the last gasp of monotheism. But of course, that last gasp, especially Islamic fundamentalism, can last a hundred years.
America is actually becoming more liberal. What we see now is manufactured.
I'm not sure I know what this means.
SWR
Jeeez, I'm beginning to sound like some sort of guru sitting cross-legged on a snow topped mountain with these questions. I can't go into long explanations because I don't think it's possible, just short answers. If I tried to explain it all, throughly, I would only be able to answer one question after spending an hour.
I love the fact that the wingers are convinced that queers "don't reproduce." Once again, the facts don't get in the way of the "truth."
But short term, it's going to get very iffy. I think that what we're seeing now is the last gasp of monotheism. But of course, that last gasp, especially Islamic fundamentalism, can last a hundred years.
Is there something about globalizing/centralizing technology that's changing religion?
The fundamentalist movement we're seeing now (Christian in the US and Islamic in the Third world), is it different in kind? Is it something new?
The way the Catholic church is getting involved in secular politics? Think about it. 50 years ago, you had Catholics and Protestant fundies and they hated each other. Catholics were conservative in some ways (they still wanted to control their women and children's sexuality) but liberal politically because they were afraid of the Protestants.
Now you have Catholics + Protestants + Centralizing technology (TV, Internet, the national security state) and a counter fundamentalism in the third world allowing American fundamentalism to grab hold of the central government. The poorer and more miserable people get in the third world, the more they're going to embrace Islam. The more they embrace Islam, the more the first world becomes purtian and repressive.
And I can't just hide from it.
Getting rather fond of oneself, are we, Incog?
The gist, I am guessing, is that the actual opinions of the American people, according to polls, track with more liberal attitudes, whereas the media, for any number of reasons (primarily due to capitalism), are presenting an image that is quite a bit more to the right.
Yes?
I love the fact that the wingers are convinced that queers "don't reproduce." Once again, the facts don't get in the way of the "truth."
rorschach
Well, rorschach, he's technically right. If I reproduced, chances are more than 90%, that the child would be a heterosexual.
The gist, I am guessing, is that the actual opinions of the American people, according to polls, track with more liberal attitudes, whereas the media, for any number of reasons (primarily due to capitalism), are presenting an image that is quite a bit more to the right.
Possible but I don't know. Don't you see Bush as more or less the classic demagogue? He's giving people what they want.
Yes, Judith Miller and the New York Times lied but would it have mattered if (post 9/11) most people in the US didn't want to beat up on some (any) Arab country?
Incognito--And 10% of the children of heteros aren't hetero. Even the children of moronic wingers like the one who told you that!
That's what tickles me.
Is there something about globalizing/centralizing technology that's changing religion?
I think what happened on 911 and what we're seeing now, with the beheadings, will be very damaging to Islam, if those who practice it are truly human beings, which I believe they are, after all. I think what we're beginning to see now against Christian fundamentalism and their efforts to everywhere will have a backlash in the West. I do look at it as their last desperate gasp.
Actually, Patterson has it slightly right: those of us who are Americans should stay and fight, if only for the sake of those who can't leave.
Only 1 American in 6 even has a passport. Travel isn't that expensive, but when the average family is only one paycheck away from homelessness (perhaps an exaggeration) expatriation is a rather elite option.
More to the point, what America does matters to the rest of the world. Making a difference here is more important than making a difference in most other places. China pollutes more air, perhaps, but we'd probably agree that we can more easily change things here than there.
There are some reasons to hope for the future. I live in ultra-conservative Orange County, California, and the kids here are mind-bogglingly free of racism. Forty years ago anti-semitism was common; now, half the kids date outside their "race", and they hang out rather comfortably.
As for the bishops - how rapidly do they want to alienate their dwindling congregations?
That's what tickles me.
rorschach
We're constant in all populations however supressed. Gays were around long before monotheism, and despite their best efforts, we will be around as long as humanity is around. You can not say that about monotheism.
I think what we're beginning to see now against Christian fundamentalism and their efforts to everywhere will have a backlash in the West. I do look at it as their last desperate gasp.
I've seen this change in myself. I've never been religious but I've always believed religious people to be basically decent people. They just happened to believe in something I didn't. I always had some residual guilt about not being religious.
Now after 9/11, pedophile priests, looking at the fundy campaign against gays, Israel's treatment of the Arabs and virulent Jewish Islamaphobia, and these beheading, I'm honestly beginning to think most if not all religious people are just mentally unbalanced, hateful.
It would take a lot to convince me that religion has any value. Even religious liberals tend to bore me.
Hell, non-hetero behavior predates humanity. The notion of "gay" as an identity, however, is only a couple hundred years old. That's a whole nother arguement, though.
bad Jim, no. I refer you to my posts above, about the many expatriates who have wound up contributing vastly to America from their positions abroad.
Now after 9/11, pedophile priests, looking at the fundy campaign against gays, Israel's treatment of the Arabs and virulent Jewish Islamaphobia, and these beheading, I'm honestly beginning to think most if not all religious people are just mentally unbalanced, hateful.
I don't want to seem like one of the Four Homosexual Horsemen of the Apocalypse, although many might consider me that, but for all monotheism in our era, it's now about trying to bolster a belief system that's been weakened from within by its own dry rot of failure and disillusionment by damaging, injuring and beheading others. That's not lasting if that's all it comes down to.
The point is that it's the responsibility of Americans to keep our country from invading other countries, consuming their resources and despoiling the planet.
My personal inclination is to abscond. I've got the wherewithal, though my language skills aren't up to snuff. Duty says that it's our mess and we need to clean it up, because nobody else is going to be able to.
As for homosexuality: this country has actually been historically fairly tolerant (compared to the UK, at least; see Wilde & Turing) and remains so. The outbreaks in SF, NY and MA have generated little outrage in the heartland, so far. The fundie ministers express disappointment. Poor them.
I personally (not to be the bisexual walking guy of the non-apocalypse) don't see religion waning or in its last gasp or anything.
Religion has always been with us in some form or another. For many, it's a necessary supplement to reason.
I do hope that ANTI-reason fundie religions are seeing a last gasp, but what I really think is happening is an anti-modern movement fueled by the globalization of capitalism.
The forces of capitalism cannot snuff this. These movements will play themselves out...and much faster, if we cut of the fuel.
bad Jim--Turing is horrible, Matt Shepard also. Living queer in the US takes tremendous courage. If you think the US is tolerant, you haven't seen the America I've seen.
I agree that we have to try to stop this administration from continuing to fuck things up. I dispute the notion that I have to live here to do it. That is pointlessly parochial, I think.
(And I won't even comment on the invocation of Oscar Wilde. What, the US was a gay haven circa 1900? Don't think so)
(And I won't even comment on the invocation of Oscar Wilde. What, the US was a gay haven circa 1900? Don't think so)
rorschach
Actually, there was a lot of history for gay people back then in America. But the Roman Catholic Church obliterated it, back then, like they did prior for centuries. They can't do that anymore, though.
And there's lots of history in England for centuries before Wilde. I mean, check out the Molly houses in the 17th century.
My only point is that it's silly to argue that things have been better for gays in the US than in the UK within recent history.
And despite what many may think, I'm not a huge gay rights activist. I try to clear up any misconception I see might be different from my experience. It just seems there are way more misconceptions about homosexuality than any other subject I see posted. Wow, wonder why. It's almost impossible. Which begs the question, what loyalty should I feel to clean up this mess?
I am a huge queer rights activist. And your loyalty should be to your conscience, in this as in all things!
I don't really want to argue the case for American tolerance for gays (read A Beautiful Mind for an example of contemporary persecution; maybe mathematicians are particularly at risk) beyond saying that von Neumann warned Turing that he might be better off moving.
I suspect that urban locales are safer and more comfortable for gays than rural or suburban areas, and the coasts are to be preferred. I'm sure that Paris is heaven for gay black drug users (pick any two; Charlie Parker got advice similar to Turing's). Paris is also quite nice for the rest of us.
To mangle Marx: most of us just want to enjoy the world. The point, however, is to change it.
My only point is that it's silly to argue that things have been better for gays in the US than in the UK within recent history.
rorschach
France just tried to have one gay couple marrying and they went crazy there outraged about it. America has been much better about it, obviously. Gays just don't suddenly spring up in large cities because of the conditions there. Homosexuality occurs randomly in all learned homophobic populations so many gays gravitate to city centers to be around others like themselves. That's the way it's always been.
I say that's the way it's always been. It's been that way for the last 500 years, anyway.
That was a great last line:
"it's just like every other Republican presidential campaign."
I mean really, who are these corrupt brainwashers to judge on religion for anything. While they murder and torture innocents out of a vengeful non-christian anti-love? They should all go on three year contemplative retreats and then return with a compassionate heart touched by something real.
These power hungry political operatives should have humility when it comes to religion and respect also.
But as Atrios wisely puts it, the campaign is based on unchristian, subhuman, and dishonorable principles from the get go. After all, look what they are trying to sell....
Incognito--I am heartened (and rather surprised) by the sudden groundswell of support for gay marriage here in the US. However, there are lawsuits and calls for constitutional amendments and all sorts of things in reaction. So, I'd say that the US situation could be characterized as just as bad as France's.
Anyway, ain't no roses coming up easy anywhere.
And also, I don't think mathematicians are much more at risk than, say, transsexual sex workers...
500 years ago, "urban centers" were just getting underway, and only a tiny percentage of people lived in or near them. And gay as an identity didn't exist...
I like the real Christian fundamentalism. The dramatic highs and lows of Christian tent-revival Christian fundamentalism, I grew up with. I don't care for the aggressive, fake, wanting to take over the world and be ruptured, Tele-evangelist type I see now. That's not "tolerance." But it shouldn't be about "tolerance." This really should be about all this being big enough for everybody and celebrating all our differences.
It's becoming conventional wisdom that happening urban centers require active gay communities to make them interesting (sort of like the black hole at the heart of any galaxy Probably not.)
I'm more inclined to think that an active gay community is an indicator of the tolerance that makes a polity palatable. I'm also inclined to think that a sizeable Mexican community is required as well, otherwise you get enchiladas in tomato sauce (Washington D.C., 1984)(yuck!)
Those with different culinary baselines will vary in their requirements.
Damn right, Incog. I hate "tolerance" because it always involves some degree of patronization or condescension. I always want to scream out: You have no right to tolerate me, asshole!
Anyway, I, although an atheist, am right there with you on that old time religion. At New Orleans's Jazz Fest, I always wind up spending hours in the gospel tent, because they know how to celebrate...
Homosexuality occurs randomly in all learned homophobic populations so many gays gravitate to city centers to be around others like themselves. That's the way it's always been.
Incognito
rorschach, I wrote about 500 years ago, "city centers" and not "urban centers."
those of us who are Americans should stay and fight, if only for the sake of those who can't leave.
What a kind thing to say, Jim, so why do you call yourself "bad"?
Get yourself a backpack and prepare to hoof it out, if need be.
You see, this is precisely my problem. (I lived overseas for a number of years, and I know I have what it takes to transplant myself in another culture.) Unfortunately, now that I'm older I'm also physically disabled (at least for the next couple of years at least, in spite of working very hard for physical rehabilitation), and unable to "hoof it" anywhere.
Because I see so many similarities between where we are now and Germany in the early thirties, this is leaving me feeling somewhat panicky, not to mention trapped and depressed. Why, even where we now live in the U.S. I have to cope with isolation, since I can't get out and about. Mr. Kate and I have nonetheless discussed leaving, and there are one or two potential possibilities for him to find work elsewhere, if his boss is willing to help him, and we haven't explored that yet.
My question is, where does one go (on the Internet, or in print media) to find practical information on living as an expat? For example, medicine (& disability issues), taxes, visa regulations, etc. etc.?
Not that I actually wrote "500 years ago."
Although I'm beginning to feel like I have.
Incog--Okay. I'll say the same about city centers. In the early 16th century, feudalism was just starting to crumble, and the fief or manor was still the primary unit of social order, not the city center.
"for the last 500 years" doesn't mean "since (at least) 500 years ago"?
Now I'm confused.
Incog--Okay. I'll say the same about city centers. In the early 16th century, feudalism was just starting to crumble, and the fief or manor was still the primary unit of social order, not the city center.
rorschach
London existed then. Paris existed....
Yes, they existed. They just were absolutely nothing at all as we think of them. They weren't "city centers." And they were not terribly significant within English or French society.
kate, I use "bad" so I can try to be funny sometimes. (Also, there are a lot of Jims around, and it seemed unlikely that anyone else would be inclined to select the same monnicker.)
Rorschach, President Washington wrote a famous letter to a Jewish community (in Rhode Island, I think) expressing the same attitude towards tolerance. The gist of it was that Jews weren't "tolerated" in America, they were on exactly the same footing as anyone else.
rorschach, it's been really long today for me. And it's way late here, almost 4am. Enjoyed it but I can't write anymore. Get some sleep like I'm about to.
Cheers incognito. Sleep well. I hope I shall. Have to replace a window on my house tomorrow. Fun!
bad jim: Fascinating. I'd never heard of that before, and would like to know more about that letter...
Washington to the Touro Synagogue:
It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.
This is not the canonical link, but it gives more of it. Google away!
Oh well. Bad timing, I guess.
She posed nude for some fine art magazine in Australia (where it's no big deal and even her parents approved).
That'll be Black & White, I bet. It did the same thing in 2000 for Sydney: nude shoots of Olympic athletes doing athletic things. Great stuff.
In other news, homo-hating Family Values guy Pete Coors sells beer with tits.
On the Catholic issue: there's a curious balance of power between the hierarchy and the congregation. The congregation lets the hierarchy put forward positions that they consider morally consistent (if absolutist) in spite of their personal behaviour, and the hierarchy tolerates that personal behaviour -- while keeping the confessional box open.
If priests were to start denouncing Kerry from the pulpit as some kind of diocesan edit, the churches would empty.
In that respect, Catholicism's quite different from other denominations. But the media doesn't usually grok this, hence the stupid reporting.
This is what America stood for, at its founding. It's worth fighting for. The idea of America as a free country has always inspired hope and incited a few revolutions (sometimes against the heavy hand of American imperialism).
The country feels like a runaway train sometimes, and for some of us it seems the height of prudence to jump away before it crashes. We owe it to the rest of the world to try to bring it under control, though.
And with that, buenas noches.
Hey, what is all this negative talk about leaving the country?
The real question is: what would happen to Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Krauthammer, Fox News, when Kerry wins? That's what
I want to know.
Fuck them. I willfight them with donations, registering voters, talking to everyone ....
As a Catholic, I have no problem with the Democrats reaching out to pro-lifers who've switched to the Repubs and saying, "Come back, you have a home with us." But this whole issue is now ONLY about errant Catholic Democrats. There are plenty of "cafeteria" Methodists and "cafeteria" Reform Jews and "cafeteria" agnostics out there, too...
Why, then, does the White House keep pushing the issue of John Kerry and the bishops?
It's called a theocracy and YES we are going there and NO it will NOT come in one big gulp but in sips just like this. One sip at a time...this is a bigger sip than most.
These issues relax the mindset of having the religous play a bigger and bigger role in our politics. This is how theocracies happen, form, grow. Look at the theocratic legislation the republicans continue to propose.
Does everyone understand that Bush asked the POPE to help him shove his theocratic agenda down our throats?
You can look at his Pope-al request a jillion ways but that is what Bush did. He was in essence soliciting the Pope's help in bringing MOON's dream theocracy to America. I am not saying Bush did this at Moon's personal request, as Moon says this will come 'naturally'.
Do you understand?
WE ARE BECOMING MOON'S DREAM.
Naturally. The story is that NO ONE wants to talk about Moon, who spent BILLIONS sending us down this road.
BILLIONS sending us down the road.
BILLIONS - Do you see it yet?
Laugh all you want at this line about Reagan BUT IT IS TRUE!!!
http://www.consortiumnews.com/ar...hive/
moon3.html
By the mid-1980s, Moon's Unification Church had carved out a niche as an acceptable part of the American right. In one speech to his followers, Moon boasted that "without knowing it, even President Reagan is being guided by Father [Moon]."
Yet, Moon also made clear that his longer-range goal was the destruction of the U.S. Constitution and America's democratic form of government. "History will make the position of Reverend Moon clear, and his enemies, the American population and government will bow down to him," Moon said, speaking of himself in the third person. "That is Father's tactic, the natural subjugation of the American government and population."
A vote for a Republican is a vote for Moon's theocracy.
Hey, what is all this negative talk about leaving the country?
The real question is: what would happen to Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Krauthammer, Fox News, when Kerry wins? That's what
I want to know.
Ah, ecoast, speaking just for myself, I teeter up and down, and must admit it's probably partly influenced by coping with physical pain. But you're right, and your energy, and that of others on this blog is infectious, too. That's one good thing about coming here.
As to what will happen with the Savage Rushannity O'Krautly types, I fear they ain't going away any time soon. They'll probably try to undermine Kerry any way they can. If Kerry should win - please God - in a landslide, they'll probably tone it down a bit, but we must remain vigilant to future smear attempts.
no, georgie is RE-REinforcing that HE saves fetuses.
Here's the money quote from the Hitchens piece Old Hat linked:
But get ready. It is going to get much worse. The graphic videos and photographs that have so far been shown only to Congress are, I have been persuaded by someone who has seen them, not likely to remain secret for very long. And, if you wonder why formerly gung-ho rightist congressmen like James Inhofe ("I'm outraged more by the outrage") have gone so quiet, it is because they have seen the stuff and you have not. There will probably be a slight difficulty about showing these scenes in prime time, but they will emerge, never fear.
Wow. If it could shut up Senator Hoof-in-mouth it must be bad.
I wish all of you would quit talking about leaving-- Chimpy's going down hard, and this is an opportunity to get America back on the left track.
This summer this is going to be fun. Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy is this going to be fun!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, Old Hat, you can't marry Echidne-- she's a goddess. You can only worship her. Get in line.
Moon picked the Christian right up by the scruff of the neck and put them in power.
The 'Robert Grant' mentions below is the head of Moon's front the American Freedom Coalition(AFC). The AFC was said by the Bush family's fundy liaison, Doug Wead, to be one of the two most powerful conservative organizations in the country in the 80s and 90s when these freaks were first organized. This is all part of the Moon's "Unite the Religions" campaign. A step in his plan. Conservatives are Moon's pawns, they are pushing his agenda, "naturally."
http://www.mediachannel.org/
orig...ranscript.shtml
Narrator: Is the American Freedom Coalition a foreign agent? In 1989, Robert Grant wrote in the Washington Post that more than $5 million — one third of the AFC's money — came from "business interests of the Unification Church." Church officials say that their money comes from overseas — primarily from Japan.
...
Narrator: But Moon's influence over the AFC is underscored by this 1988 letter FRONTLINE obtained from a source who once worked within the Moon Organization. AFC President Robert Grant, writing to Reverend Moon, thanks him for investing heavily and "helping to bring the AFC into being." Grant concludes by telling Moon, "Without your leadership, vision and the support of your devoted followers, the AFC would not exist."
___
from: http://www.christianitytoday.com...1/132/
36.0.html
He(Robert Grant) emphasized that AFC is a political coalition formed because of the "inability of the 'Christian Right' to achieve its agenda "due to its "fragmentation and its failure to build coalitions with its philosophical allies from other communities for effective civic participation."
I find it fascinating that, with all the brain power being spent on the left over this issue, no one I have read has mentioned the coveted Latino vote.
The Latino vote is both overwhelmingly Catholic and culturally conservative. They're also not thrilled with Republicans right now, but are seen as swing constituents.
Perhaps the Kerry thing is the "added bonus" (or Trojan horse) in all this, while the Republicans position themselves in line with the Vatican on cultural issues, thereby hoping to increase the Latino vote?
These social issues have been one of the main tools for breaking up working class support for the New Deal coalition. Millions of people who supported the Democratic party, and still sympathize with it on economic and welfare issues, wind up voting against it because of abortion or gay rights. I know older people who still think the sun shone out of FDR's ass, who have voted GOP more often than not over the last twenty years because of abortion.
Abortion is a great wedge issue to keep religious economic populists from voting their pocketbook.
I think it's a pretty perverse approach, myself. We may wind up being a toxic sweatshop of 300 million people, all working 60-hour weeks for minimum wage. But at least we'll have a gang of fucking blue-noses in charge, making sure nobody sees naked tit on TV or sticks his dick where it doesn't belong.
The reporters, once again steno for Rove. A quick Google search shows that Minor Excommunication was abandoned by the Catholics' Holy Office over a hundred years ago. Withholding Communion was the centrpiece of Minor Excommunication. It was abandoned because its use seemed to many to be arbitrary and capricious and often used for politcal reasons.
As anonymous in nc (upthread) pointed out, American Catholics aren't a monolithic bloc of obedient little sheep. If the bishops (who are becoming more and more irrelevant) want to carry on and ban people, as far as most parishioners are concerned, they can foam at the mouth all they want. The vast majority of parishioners will (1) be disgusted and (2) vote for the guy in sympathy.
I know that'll be the response at my parish. Of course they're all voting for the main guy in question anyway.
Bush is playing the "guilt" card, or trying to. What a weasel.
Susan - what have weasels ever done to deserve being connected to Bush? Have a heart! 
Riesz Fischer - thanks for the bucking up! I hope your tea leaf sources are good...I want to see serious indictments, NOW. But in any event, I'll be coming back here often for morale lifting.
Similarly unbelievable: why has the indisputably great Ray Bradbury taken it upon himself to be a de-facto pro-Bush dick?
any withholding communion from politicians that support the death penalty? oh, of course not.
any withholding communion from politicians that support the death penalty? oh, of course not.
Not to mention, jp, withholding the Eucharist from those who ignore the Church's "just war" teachings -- going back at least to Augustine (and how this war in Iraq does not in any way resemble anything close to the criteria thereof).
And not to mention the withholding from those who ignore the "preferential option for the poor." [Which option does not mean that the poor are somehow loved more by God, but that every Catholic Christian has a duty - which is NOT OPTIONAL - to do everything in his/her power to help, empower, and speak out on behalf of the poor of the world.]
Why? Because religion is the resudent's last redoubt.
The resident's team must deny Kerry a foothold, otherwise all is lost...
They can't win on the resident's job record, so they're going to amp up the tried and true, hot button issues to keep their base motivated...
Gay marriage and abortion.
Look out here come the vil pagan horde's to kill your babies and sodomize you :-/
KATE: And not to mention the withholding from those who ignore the "preferential option for the poor." [Which option does not mean that the poor are somehow loved more by God, but that every Catholic Christian has a duty - which is NOT OPTIONAL - to do everything in his/her power to help, empower, and speak out on behalf of the poor of the world.]
EKREAD: Didn't Jesus say something about a camel and the eye of a needle?
What really takes the cake about Bush imploring for help from the Vatican to push pro-life: Bush's college girlfriend had an abortion with the blessing/help of the Bush clan.
Not amoral. Morally relativistic.
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