HULK SMASH!!!
Man, I would love to see Novacuous get frog-marched. And then bitch-slapped by Valerie Plame.
Holy Crap! Let 'em have it, Paul!
(frist)
I was so excited, I didn't even comment on the exchange. That was amazing, and Begala should get beaucoup points just for having the balls to do that right up front. God, had the opening theme music even ended?
Me be first...
They lie and no one seems to care. I am utterly depressed, now simply waiting for the next terraist attack to let them invoke martial law.
To paraphrase Orwell, I see the future of the U.S. as a boot smashing into a face forever.
Well, 4th.
BEGALA: I got this from the transcript. This is the transcript from "Meet the Press", Bob.
NOVAK: That's an outrage. And it is...
BEGALA: It is an outrage. You owe Mr. Clinton an apology.
Hahahahahaha!
I predicted, wrongly, that Novak would be dumped after the Plame thing broke.
I'm still amazed he's employed as a talking head. He's obviously proven he has no morals, he's not exactly telegenic, and I would imagine most of the "inside information" he provides is total bullshit.
Am I wrong?
Why does Bob Novak still have a fucking job? he outed a "deep cover" CIA operative, and he is still alive? Amazing. Lying feckless fuck.
The gloves are off now. Fascinating exchange. Novak backed into a corner, crucified by his own words.
More than anyone else, reporters know words have power. And we're all accountable for the things we say. I would like to see more journalists asking these sorts of questions of their own cabal. It's refreshing.
He lies about his own lies, even when confronted with the fact that he lied.
The best thing you can say about Novak is that he's as old as the hills and won't be around forever.
Fucking traitor.
This is an improvement in Begala's performance.
But as far as I'm concerned, every single "journalist" on every fucking show that Novak is on should interrupt him any time he opens his mouth.
they should interrupt him to ask which person in George W. Bush's White House is a traitor to this country.
He knows, and he's protecting them with his silence.
Can someone post the video clip? That would be awesome to have.
ha ha ha ha
Everytime I watch Crossfire, I can't believe Novak even has a job on any network other than Al Jazeera after outing a CIA agent.
The guy is not only dangerous for harming national security, he's a puss for not even having the guts to own his words. Typical rethuglican.
Why does Begala hate...aw hell, you know the rest.
I think Begala finally couldn't take it anymore. That, and maybe he wants some of Carville's press?
Oh, accountability is soooooo 1990s. We're now in the era where Republicans can say and do anything--anything at all--and none of it matters a whit.
Novakula is without doubt one of the worst, most dishonest people to ever reach the public's attention. That he is still employed after aiding and abetting treason against the United States tells us all we need to know about the power structure of this country.
Semi Off Topic
Novac is the type who keeps repeating the slurs as fact. Bad information droned on endlessly. The portion of the Right that seems exceptionally militant also practices this as a whole. No matter how many times they are repudiated, they go right back to the same party line of half truth, lies, innuendo and no context soundbites and quotes. I have met one person who by all those who know him profess him to be utterly evil and this repetitious blather is a trademark.
Okay sorry for the long winded preface.
Is there any particular word or phrase that describes this method. I have been racking my brain cells for one and as yet have come up with one.
And FUD doesn't count, I mean a legit one out of the Websters.
Is there any particular word or phrase that describes this method. I have been racking my brain cells for one and as yet have come up with one.
Demogoguery?
Old Hat - perfect likeness.
Clinton beat the rap on Whitewater and I think Ken Starr failed on that.
$80 million later.....
What a fuckin' idiot. Did he ever get charged with assault in NH after he attacked a heckler who called him a "traitor"? Curious minds want to know why no charges were filed.
A word or phrase - bullshit?
yep, that one's going to leave a mark.
I know this is way off topic but....What the hell was Colin Powell doing on that stage today.He made himself look like a fool even more than at the U.N.
What is it with this administration and they're desire to sing on stages??
Tena,
(Flipping through Websters0 Is that one word or two.
Heh!
Paul actually left his chair, twice getting into boob;s face! Boob had drool on his lips as he read the commercial lead-in. ROTFLMAO!
It's one word, but as part of a phrase, I like it paired with "mindless" - mindless bullshit.
I was watching MTP and it certainly seemed as though Novak was trying to claim that people were "killed".
But in reading the transcript and listening to his 'not fun' defense, it is possible that he was simply saying that since McDougal died, Ken Starr was unable to extract the "truth" about Whitewater. This, of course is total bullshit since McDougal could ahve walk away a free man if he had any evidence on Clinton, however logic is not Novak's strong point.
No matter how many times they are repudiated, they go right back to the same party line of half truth, lies, innuendo and no context soundbites and quotes.
Was wondering the same thing today, do they think we as a country have some kind of collective amnesia? AADD? How many times is GFY going to recycle the same lies?
Is there any particular word or phrase that describes this method. I have been racking my brain cells for one and as yet have come up with one.
I don't really think there is one, outside of abnormal psychology and the works of Joseph Goebbels. You won't find it in classical rhetoric, to the best of my knowledge, because there was an assumption in those days that while a given argument might be faulty or even dishonest, no one would willfully continue making it in public after being called on it. I'm racking my brains, and I can't think of a single rhetorical term that's negative enough to describe this kind of behavior. It's not part of debate; it's part of psychopathology.
It's not part of debate; it's part of psychopathology.
I've seen it quite a bit in the corporate world. It is usually met with, "that dog didn't hunt last time, so why you bringing it up again?"
Philalethes - "It's not part of debate; it's part of psychopathology."
that's the "mindless" part of mindless bullshit.
This way to the rubber room Colin.
Is there any particular word or phrase that describes this method. I have been racking my brain cells for one and as yet have come up with one.
Propaganda.
Tena - Think it is part of the MBA mentality of never say you are wrong or sorry. Parse, distort, or whatever so you can argue that "I was not wrong".
I watched this exchange on Crossfire today. All I could think of during Novak's harangue was that he is contractually protected, by CNN, from being questioned on his role or involvement in any recent scandals.
Nice job if you can get it...
chris/tx - I think you're right.
I think "sociopathy" is probably the best word. Note these definitions from an online encyclopedia:
It is characterised by a number of symptoms:
Failure to conform to social norms or lawful behaviors (check)
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying or conning others for personal profit or pleasure (check)
Irresponsibility, impulsivity or failure to plan ahead (check)
Irritability and aggression (check)
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others (check)
* Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another. (check)
Mr. Novak? We have your test results, and there does seem to be some abnormality....
OK, it's not one word, but here it is: Resistance to Cognitive Dissonance.
Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation.
And you know it's taking its toll on this sorry bastard.
I saw that exchange today with Novak and Begala and I turned the channel. I agree with almost everything that Paul Begala says, but he has one of the most irritating, grating voices on TV. Sometimes I think about writing him to tell him to shut up and let better people express the same views without alienating people. If he's that irritating to liberals, imagine how conservatives feel listening to that.
And, yeah, Novak shouldn't have said what he said on Meet the Press, whether or not it was out of context or needed further explanation.
I can't stand Crossfire anymore. I usually end up watching Lester Holt or local news. As much as I like having Begala on our side, I would much prefer they would get somebody more likeable and pleasant to replace him. Bill Press was great. I miss him.
Is there any particular word or phrase that describes this method. I have been racking my brain cells for one and as yet have come up with one.
p-r-o-p-a-g-a-n-d-a
Unless, as philalethes points out, he's a bona fide sociopath.
Shorter Novak: accusing people of complicity in murder and outing CIA assets is 'fun'; being called on it is 'not fun'.
EK Cen Trik:
"Mendacious" comes to mind.
Technically speaking, a "simulacrum" is a copy- of an original that never actually existed. That comes close to describing the echo-chamber phenomenon.
I know this is way off topic but....What the hell was Colin Powell doing on that stage today.He made himself look like a fool even more than at the U.N.
a n-i-n-n-y
Message to Novak: Go Cheney yourself!
what happened to those laws about slander and libel? i don't know if novak's statements would count since he stated them as opinion, but the guy a day or two ago who was talking about bill and hillary's agreement about messing around with other women needs suing.
The real question to me is, "What in God's name are we going to do with these people?" There are millions of them, you can't reason with them, you can't exterminate them, you can't educate them...what do you do? In a couple of generations, we've managed to end up with flat-out clinical sociopathy as the dominant political force in the country! No remorse, no planning ahead...just irrational aggression and unblushing lies.
I hesitate to say this because you ideally never want to speak of whole groups of people as diseased...but at the same time, these people are a threat to us and our world the same way the smallpox vials at Dugway are. Smallpox you can toss in the incinerator...but what on earth do you do with men like Novak and O'Reilly?
Mr. Novak? We have your test results, and there does seem to be some abnormality....
ha ha ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!!
That was an interesting set of replies to the question. Twas great.
By the way, the "method" when I see it is purposeful. The perp knows exactly what they are doing. Repeat enough and more people will accept the lie no matter how good the repudiation. They know if you are trying to be a true blue citizen that your voice will get lost in the storm. I hate it, watched a company almost die because of it. And now I see it spread from sea to shining sea.
The real question to me is, "What in God's name are we going to do with these people?" There are millions of them, you can't reason with them, you can't exterminate them, you can't educate them...what do you do?
No need to worry. They will all be beamed off the planet when the rapture comes.....
Oh, how the mighty have fallen. I used to love CNN, back in the long-ago day. They're shit now and have been for some time. That Chiclet-tooth Novak is just the public face for their mighty bad excuse for news. Wish there was some honest tv news--somewhere?---where you could hear truth, or even honestly biased debate among folks of different flavors. Is there any balm in Gilead, folks?
"No need to worry. They will all be beamed off the planet when the rapture comes....."
Considering their moral inclination, wouldn't it be the other way around.
Lucky me, I have never specified a faith so guess who gets stuck with them all.
I'm always amazed about the degree to which ideological foes in DC can, once the cameras are off, talk nicely to each other.
Like Chomsky says, one party, two factions. I'm sure they'll kiss and make up.
p-r-o-p-a-g-a-n-d-a
No, that's not it. Because you could have, say, an Allied propaganda poster saying that Hitler was a tyrant (or whatever) and have everything in it be completely factual. We make the mistake of assuming that propaganda is inherently untrue, by definition, but it isn't.
Lying your ass off, denying words you said a week before when they're right in front of you...that's something else again. BushCo USES propaganda techniques to push its lies, sure, but people like Novak come by their insanity honestly, I think.
I think it boils down to what someone else said here: Those who sing loudest in church (whether or not they know the words) have the most to hide. These guys are hollow, confabulating, cowardly people with no moral center...and some how they found each other and projected everything onto their opponents. It's even kind of like a burglar hiding in the house he's just robbed, saying "They'll never look for me here!"
I love it Novak whooped at his own game. Take their topic, ignore it, and attack them from the front. The Nation article got no play. Sweet.
Leaving the grocery store I read that the Pope was hit by a meteor again, Clinton is cheating again, a new car built to run on beer, and I thought all of this "news" was as credible as anything in what used to be the "mainstream" media.
Writers have been fired for not following up on "facts" but outing a CIA Agent is ok. What a shame!
In a couple of generations, we've managed to end up with flat-out clinical sociopathy as the dominant political force in the country!
I use to read all of Ann Rule, who studied our most (in)famous sociopaths. IIRC her analogy to sociopaths was chameleons. Another area sociopaths share is a lack of a foundation of core values as in empathy, etc.
pigsmoker: Boob had drool on his lips as he read the commercial lead-in.
Novak always has drool on his lips, and Al Hunt and Mark Shields kick his ass every week on Capitol Gang. It's hilarious.
Dumbo, Unfortunately I have to say that while I also think Begala's a weird little creep, Bill Press would never have the cojones to confront anyone in that manner, and he also drives a Lexus SUV, not that there's anything wrong with that...in any case, Novak has had that and much more coming for a very long time.
Hmmm ... If I understand projection, it is at least associated when I think of it. Not the furtherance of the mythos itself but it does seem involved in grounding it.
That Chiclet-tooth Novak is just the public face for their mighty bad excuse for news.
Chiclet-tooth. That's a favorite.
Wish there was some honest tv news--somewhere?---where you could hear truth, or even honestly biased debate among folks of different flavors. Is there any balm in Gilead, folks?
NOW with Bill Moyers on PBS.
Democracy NOW with Amy Goodman, but I'm not sure that it's on teevee outside the NYC metropolitan area. Anyone anywhere can listen to it on the radio, though.
somebody in the comments on the talentshow wondered whether novak meant that witnesses die as time goes on, making it hard to try a case.
is there any chance at all that novak meant it this way? anything in the tone of his voice or in his past comments, what had he said about vince foster in the past for example?
just wondering.
No, you can't exterminate them, but there is more than enough room in Wyoming to house them all. Fortify the state line and then turn 'em loose inside. The lucky ones won't make it through the first winter.
In a couple of generations, we've managed to end up with flat-out clinical sociopathy as the dominant political force in the country!
...i think it spreads from a corporate culture--corporation as pathogen--that emphasizes profits and market share rather than human values......
Democracy NOW with Amy Goodman, but I'm not sure that it's on teevee outside the NYC metropolitan area. Anyone anywhere can listen to it on the radio, though.
--it's always on the internet at http://www.democracynow.org
Ronjazz, you're mistaken about Bill Press. Haven't you seen him go after people? One time on Crossfire he kept pressing Dan Quayle about the fact that everyone ridicules him. He kept saying "I've never seen this level of ridicule..." or something to that effect, and he just kept after him. Even I was squirming, and I don't like Repiglicans.
Dude, Bill Press has cojones.
I use to read all of Ann Rule, who studied our most (in)famous sociopaths. IIRC her analogy to sociopaths was chameleons. Another area sociopaths share is a lack of a foundation of core values as in empathy, etc.
Don't know her, but it sounds interesting. The chameleon thing, especially. 'Cause for instance, I might not like who I am, particularly. I might even hate myself outright now and again, or get bored with myself, or whatever. But not to the extent that I'm suddenly going to pretend to be someone ELSE. That seems to be something a lot of these guys have in common...they're all running away from something, or trying to retell the story of their lives in a way that makes them feel better. Look at O'Reilly's Levittown stuff...no sane person puts that much energy into a lie that ANYONE can disprove, unless his mental experience of that truth would be just devastating. Seriously, can you imagine the stress you'd be under, lying all the time, about everything? It frightens me to think of it.
I think sex is the basis for a lot of it...being gay, for instance, or a child molester. You can always come up with these glib explanations...but the sheer VOLUME of these people is what staggers me. Like, if it IS clinical...could you imagine if suddenly 70 percent of the govt and media comprised people with Tourette's Syndrome? Where are they all coming from?
No, you can't exterminate them, but there is more than enough room in Wyoming to house them all. Fortify the state line and then turn 'em loose inside. The lucky ones won't make it through the first winter.
I remember hearing the same crap in reference to blacks in the 60's.
Seriously, can you imagine the stress you'd be under, lying all the time, about everything? It frightens me to think of it.
--Yes, absolutely--unless you really believe your own lies.....
The wingnuts are so used to being able to bully progressives unimpeded. If anyone with half a nut tries to stand up to them they feign outrage and diagnose the doubter as insane. How did the Left paint themselves into this corner? When is it going to turn around? Here we are cheering because 60 seconds out of the 24 hr Demo bashing someone actually fought back. That should tell you everything you want to know about the dialogue in this country.
Here we are cheering because 60 seconds out of the 24 hr Demo bashing someone actually fought back. That should tell you everything you want to know about the dialogue in this country.
sad, actually.
...i think it spreads from a corporate culture--corporation as pathogen--that emphasizes profits and market share rather than human values......
Good point. Or worse, the consumerism MIMICS and cheapens human values to the point that people don't know the difference.
And beyond that...ugh...the idea of citizenship sort of going out the window, and being replaced with consumerism...so brand loyalty or bargain-hunting or whatever end up saying more about you than the fact that you're an American who has a lot of responsibility to the larger world.
Man, I'm the life of the party, huh? TGIF!
Philalethes, "What in God's name are we going to do with these people?"
I wonder the same thing. Unfortunately, I think it is only going to get worse. With increasing heavy metal toxicity (thanks Dumbya for the extra 60 tons of mercury in our system) and subsequent diminishing intellectual capabilities, added on top of deeper divisions in the classes, our crumbling education infrastructure, the increasing corporatization of our media and society...I find it hard to be all cheery about our future.
And on that, sweet dreams--
BEGALA: These are your words, Mr. Novak. I read them.
When political types begin to Mister each other, that is when you know it has gotten truly poisonous.
Far be it from me to defend the prince of darkness but I think Novak meant that McDougal's death prevented Starr from reaching the bottom of the story, not that Clinton killed McDougal.
And beyond that...ugh...the idea of citizenship sort of going out the window, and being replaced with consumerism...so brand loyalty or bargain-hunting or whatever end up saying more about you than the fact that you're an American who has a lot of responsibility to the larger world.
Consumerism has replaced Community.
--Yes, absolutely--unless you really believe your own lies.....
The way I picture it is sort of beyond what they "believe." I see it as this really visceral protective thing...just lashing out like a cornered animal. They're not saying "Uh oh, this guy's on to me." Or if they are, it's totally subconscious.
This is kind of a creepy thought that just occurred to me...but you know the weirder, more obsessive forms of fandom? Where, say, it's not just that you like some band...but you are convinced that every member of that band is the BEST, MOST TALENTED musician who ever lived? It's almost as though a guy like O'Reilly...maybe he created this false personality--the kind of guy he admired--and worships it like some obsessive fan. Because I gut this sense from a lot of these guys that they have kind of a third-person relationship with themselves. So Novak, for instance, wouldn't think "Hey, this guy's attacking me!" He'd think, "This man DARES to attack BOB NOVAK!"
I'm drunk and raving, and probably not making any sense. But what a grotesque idea...devoting your first-person self to the cultivation and protection of a fictional, third-person character.
Sorry about all this. I'm just REALLY curious as to what it's like, objectively, to be in one of these guys' noggins.
"...but what on earth do you do with men like Novak and O'Reilly?"
Philalethes
Simple, and very easy. Make them look like the asses they are. And the way to do that? Nothing fancy - just hit them with the truth.
Truth to Novak and O'Reilly is like water to the Wicked Witch of the West. All it takes is one drop and they will melt away like a snowball in Hell.
Given their recent outbursts, I'd say these little splashes are taking their toll.
Democracy Now
They have streaming video of the shows, and I highly recommend Juan Gonzales' speech.
Also check out the most recent show with Sibel Edmonds.
--Yes, absolutely--unless you really believe your own lies.....
Upthread someone mentioned cognitive dissonance. So much overlap in psychological terms.
peemer, you mentioned the affect of corporate culture. Philalethes mentions " trying to retell the story of their lives in a way that makes them feel better".
Is it about being part of "the winning team", or the team that makes me feel better about myself, that somehow justifies my existence? Much easier to swim with the current.
I've always kinda liked the term mendacity to describe what Novak does.
Far be it from me to defend the prince of darkness but I think Novak meant that McDougal's death prevented Starr from reaching the bottom of the story, not that Clinton killed McDougal.
As I said upthread, I was watching MTP and Novak certainly seemed to be implying that Clinton had people killed. That is why Joe Klein replied so forcefully.
But the written transcript does make it sound more inane.
Novak sounded genuinely insulted tonight, which makes me wonder if he failed to clarify his remarks on MTP.
Regardless, his logic is screwy. Jim McDougal gave Ken Starr everyting and then some... and still couldn't pin anything on Clinton.
Just a stupid therory...
This whole Bash The Liberals thing reminds me of a cult or like the punk rock movement. A cult that's addicted to anger and the anger is being directed towards the Left as a scapegoat. Instead of a rock band or a priest the leaders are previously failed television and radio broadcasters that found a way to rile people up and make money. Everybody on the Right is getting what they want and at least 1/2 the population gets to be in a really fun club.
Is it about being part of "the winning team", or the team that makes me feel better about myself, that somehow justifies my existence? Much easier to swim with the current.
The Repubs I know are really WOUNDED people. Deeply. The thing is, so am I. In fact, I had a harder time than most of 'em, but I never jumped to their conclusions. I'd still rather suffer and be decent, than be a prick and flourish.
You know how some people here, when the talk turns to religion, will talk about how they were raised with all this guilt about sex, for instance, and they cast it off and were happier? I think for the people who weren't outright sociopaths--someone like PJ O'Rourke, maybe--it was similarly liberating to cast off the human contract, and throw collective and personal guilt right out the window.
But for at least a couple people I know--and then I really am done with the bargain-basement psychology--it comes down to family stuff. Say, for instance, a guy's dad is a businessman, but he's a failure. And the mother's a social liberal, and the marriage falls apart. And the kid sees this humiliation, and watches the father falling apart, sinking lower and lower, closing fewer and fewer deals, and the mother's family keeps bailing him out. And then suppose he dedicates his life to re-living this dad's life, but "right": business success is all that matters; handouts and help are bad things that only bad people need; women will only hold you back. The whole thing being intended to prove reality "wrong," in a sense.
I actually know someone like that...and without realizing it, he really wears his feelings about this stuff on his sleeve. His life truly revolves around justifying his father--who was a racist, a liar, a cheat, and a failure--and demonizing hhis mother, who was actually pretty nice as far as I could tell. And this is one of those guys who'll vote Bush no matter what, and who believes that the left-wing eats granola and wears sandals and sings Kumbaya. There's probably a real person in there somewhere, but he shovels another spadeful of dirt over that person every day.
Is it about being part of "the winning team", or the team that makes me feel better about myself, that somehow justifies my existence? Much easier to swim with the current.
--yes, i think that's part of it. What is the current these people are swimming with? It's a current that's been institutionalized by corporate all-pervasiveness. The corporation, chartered as a legal entity dedicated to maximizing "profits" and "market share" which causes it to act regardless of deep of our deep human needs to live a life of meaningfulness, of value and of community.
These people are swimming in this corporate current, and the more they identify with it, promote it, the more they are rewarded and "empowered". Their careers start taking off as they feed this
"beast".
However, since this current is an artificial one, not one of enduring human values, the "empowerment" they feel is a false sense of empowerment, because it comes with the price of alienating themselves--walling themselves off--from the rest of humanity. They lose the ability to empathize with another human being--they become totally self-absorbed, worshipping this false self they have created.
I'd still rather suffer and be decent, than be a prick and flourish.
Didn't want to imply anything about my actual situation with that. I waver back and forth between all these extremes, like most people...kind of a prick today, maybe halfway decent tomorrow. I just meant I wouldn't flat-out trade moral awareness for physical comfort, even if I could.
OK, I'm out of here. Good night, all.
Philalethes - Good post.
I know many of the Republicans you describe. Guy voted most likely to succeed in my high school class of 600 (over 25 years ago) had at least two abortions, and told me the other day that he "hates Clinton". Another that married "Miss Arkansas" circa '85 or so, was bitching about the taking of pictures at Abu Ghraib.
Oh well, too many G&T's for me...
I have The Nation right here. Its an ad for wwww.pleasevote.com.
So the wingers believe in the free market, but piss on the 1st amendment when it comes to speech or commerce which challenges their political assumptions.
Good to know.
The way Novak framed this to make it sound like it was done by the editors of the Nation is ridiculous.
Then again this is a guy who is proud of outing a CIA agent working in energy and I believe counter-terrorism.
>Like Chomsky says, one party, two factions. I'm sure they'll kiss and make up.
Oh please. Maybe with some economic issues but social issues like protected speech have two very different meanings within the two parties. Why does the GOP love to censor so much? Why do you think its little Powell who is going crazy with FCC fines? Why do you think its little Powell who wants to deregulate media so badly? Who pulled the Reagans? Who didn't air Nightline? I know the dems are guilty of similiar but much lesser crimes, but there really is no comparision.
Please don't let the facts get in the way of your Nader-esque point of there being no difference. I've lived in America in these past four years; there sure as hell is a difference.
peemer 11:49 pm
And what you said.
Per Ph..good night all.
"I've lived in America in these past four years; there sure as hell is a difference."
There is a difference, but the fact is, on big issues like 9/11 and Iraq, the dems have gone along pretty meekly. They don't want to upset the power structure.
There is a lot of evidence the government story on 9/11 is crap, and the democrats happily eat it up, don't want to question power. Believe me, I am as partisan democrat as they come, but reading about the inconsistencies in the official 9/11 story makes me sick, because they ALL, reps and dems, are covering up the awful truth.
Why isn't Novak in jail for outing Valerie Plame? Seriously, the leaker needs to be found and accompany him to jail, but his newspaper and CNN should have suspended Novak for his actions. Or do we only punish Democrats, or do we only punish sex?
A very wise woman told me years ago that each one of us subconsciously makes a decision early in life as to what life is about, and then we go about acting on it.
Some of decide life is about power.
Some of us decide life is about love.
And so we go on working to get it, whichever *it* we've decided on, working not to lose it, working to keep it, whatever.
The interesting thing is that if you've decided life is about love, you want to spread it around and make sure other people have enough and can get more for themselves, because the more love everyone has, the more love you have too, and everyone's safe. But if you've decided it's about power, it's a zero-sum world. Every bit someone else gets is less for you. And that means nobody's safe.
Doesn't that explain a lot?
This whole Bash The Liberals thing reminds me of a cult or like the punk rock movement. A cult that's addicted to anger
(snip)
ZZZZZZZzzzzzzz
PS:
Shut up you stupid, self-absorbed hippie.
well, whatever you call serial lying, cheney and georgie seem to do it incessantly.
now that it has been a while since the 9/11 panel said sadaam and al qaeda had no working relationship, G +D are back at it again, tying them together like teedledee and tweedledum.
i think it time that any time a retasrdican speeks thjere should be a whistle every time they lie.
shit, and they call MM on some coinky-dinks he used in F9/11. what BULLSHIT.
It's a good theory, strawhat. Also, if power is a zero-sum game, once you have it you can't relax: someone could come and take it all away. So you can never really feel that you reached the peak, but must always strive for more power, more security and so on. Whereas if you go the other route, you do indeed get to a point where you can relax.
O'Reilly's an interesting case of this phenomenon of continuing to lie even after the lie has been exposed. He's still claiming to have grown up in Levittown, despite the fact that his mother told the Washington Post they lived in Westbury, about 4 miles away.
See, Levitt built 3 Levittowns, one each in NY (Long Island), PA, and NJ (which is now called Willingboro). These were designed as suburban houses for the working class, and O'Reilly likes to pose as working class type guy. He also built other housing, including the more middle class housing that O'Reilly grew up in in Westbury. So, he lived in a Levitt-built house, but didn't live in Levittown.
In a similar vein, O'Reilly likes to exaggerate his upbringing as being more humble than it actually was. He said his dad--who was an accountant--never made more than $35,000 a year. Problem is, this was in the 1970s, and an equivalent salary today would be roughly $110,000-120,000, which would make him at least middle class and perhaps upper middle class.
I was in the work force at the time, and I remember being overjoyed that I was finally making $200 a week ($10,000 a year). I don't know what my dad, who was a relatively well-paid, unionized blue-collar worker, made for a salary, but I'd assume his base pay might've been in the neighborhood of the high teens.
I'm late to the conversation, but I don't think that there are enormous numbers of the Coulters and Limbaughs and Novaks out there. What we have is a system where the extremist right-wing is in power, and the people that they use as their interpreters are going to be equally extreme. It's simply impossible to even think of someone who actually exists today and is more extreme than the American wingnut pundits.
That's the really interesting thing about what the media has done: that we talk about these individuals as if they were representative of the whole right-wing ideology. I mean, it's really hard to see how the current government could go any more rightwing without clearly crossing into fascism. So it's extremist.
CNN needs to fire Novakula. Period.
That they keep him around knowing what he is is beyond pathetic.
Just give them the truth, and they'll think it's hell.
People keep saying things like so and so should be fired or doesn't belong on the airwaves.
Think about it, the fact they are there and can say some of the most incredible things implies that either the employer or enabler approves of the message or they are getting something out of it and they do not care one way or another.
People can scream and stamp their feet, write letters or even show them up, but unless you remove the benefit or the perception that a benefit exists, they will not be removed
themselves.
That means you really have to go in other directions. While I have not seen Moore's movie yet, all the pro an con commentary points to one thing, he bypassed the standard routes and came up from behind so to speak. They tried and still could not sequester him and make him simply a moot point. It doesn't matter if he is accurate or not, he made an audience and some of them are not the polarized left. So in his own way, he brought the harsh and glaring light on to the administration and its supporters. And then by struggling as they did, attempting by sleazy methods to censor this film, they added a magnifying lense to the effect. Moore in a way did the same thing that music did for the 60's catharsis and so many fronts. He started getting the message across. So long story short, writing our beholden congressmen and saying bad things about the Novaks of the world is nice, but until the message is delivered in a format that the majority can hear, it is a whisper. Once that majority hears it, then the benefits begin to be removed when folks do not flock to this channel or that. The nice part is Blogs such as this are an excellent venue and have done so much, but we need to figure out how to bring the opposition, fence sitters and non-politicos to these sites. These sites have to be seen as more interesting and inevitably more accurate than the CNN's of the world.
Well a long ramble... sorry for that..
Oh heck. Novak was just practicing for what will probably be many future trips before grand juries. Looks like he still needs a little practice.
This has probably been said already but the truly amazing thing is that it's a big deal when a liberal smacks back at a conservative - even when they say something as outrageous as what Novak said.
Is that bizarre or what?
If a "mainstream" liberal said such a thing about Bush, it would be all over the news, probably. Sure as heck, the righties would be whining their heads off about it.
And a lot of the liberals would, too.
"Democracy NOW with Amy Goodman"
You can also stream it at KPFK.org (los angeles public radio). 9-10 A.M. simulcast. Best show around.
*
Is there any particular word or phrase that describes this method. I have been racking my brain cells for one and as yet have come up with one.
Douchebaggery? (with all due credit to Jon Stewart)
The world is still alright. Because we have people like Begala. Calling jerks like Novak on their bullshit.
I swear, if we were all smart enough and loud enough, we could send all these weenies crying to mama.
b.s.,
This whole Bash The Liberals thing reminds me of a cult or like the punk rock movement.
now come on grampa. you got some punk rock comrades right here in the foxhole next to ya. there is not a single true punk rocker i have ever known, and i have known many, who would ever bash somebody for being liberal.
we do sometimes slip ex-lax into the hash brownies, though. 
signed,
"berkeley 80's"
Way to go Paul. I hate that we're given a bad rap for calling out these liars.
EkCenTrik: fabulist?
oh, no, Jennifer has it.
I'm late to the conversation, but I don't think that there are enormous numbers of the Coulters and Limbaughs and Novaks out there. What we have is a system where the extremist right-wing is in power, and the people that they use as their interpreters are going to be equally extreme. It's simply impossible to even think of someone who actually exists today and is more extreme than the American wingnut pundits.
-------
You're right these psychopaths are a minority, even in their party. But they are the controling minority of the republican party. And the big media helps keep them empowered.
Why Novak is 1) not charged with treason 2) fired by CNN is beyond me. But then again seeing how the media ignore Joe Scarsbough's dead intern and went apeshit over Gary Condit pretty much says it all, doesn't it?
So why is Novak still on CNN? Put it this way. If you aspired to a career as a talking head (and had as few scruples as most other talking heads) would you (a) position yourself as a liberal or moderate, or (b) cut your demo tape as a salivating, red-meat wingnut? The CNNs, the MSNBCs, the CNBCs and, especially, Fox Network all chase the same crappy demographic: the rightwing audience. They figure controversy sells, they figure liberals will watch anyway, and corporate America seems willing to go along.
As for Novak, he should not only be fired, he should be in jail.
Is there NO CONCERN for the integrity of the commentators on these shows? Why is Novak still employed? He's a partisan, treasonous criminal. Jeez! I'm so sick of the media perpetuating this illusion that both sides of the political spectrum are equally valid and its all a matter of opinion. Poppycock! Novak's mendacity (along with Ann Coulter's, and George W.s', and Bill O'Reilly's, and Sean Hannity's and Cheney's) should knock the Right directly out of the debate. But it doesn't. Maybe its because the Liberal Media is actually owned and run by Republicans.
What would the wingnuts say if Aldrich Ames was a CNN pundit?
How about John Walker or his son?
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg?
Kim Philby?
Robert Hanssen, he might be OK. He was very right-wing and Opus Dei as well.
Traitors one and all, just like Robert Novak. Yet this man is still on the air and none of the SCLM make a stink about it. You certainly won't hear Rush or Hannity raise a ruckus about Novak.
Tim Russert got one thing right when he implied back in May 2003 after Bush's landing on the Lincoln that Novak should be in an orange jump suit.
"How dare you discredit me with my own words! Paul this isn't fun."
NOVAK: I did not say that, and that is a lie. And I...
soon to be known as the Dick Cheney defense. and of course if that fails one can always resort to erudite and argument ending, "Go Fuck Yourself"
meanwhile, ossama is holed up in some cave in cent. asia, laughing his ass off.
the terrorists are winning, but you know "whats the difference"
Isn't it about time that the left started getting very tough and angry at those on the right (like Novak) who make these outrageous statements.
If they were challenged on these lies maybe they would be less inclined to make them.
Also the media shows that allow these comments to go unchallenged should be severly criticized for their partisan slant in the reporting they do.
Finally, Dick, go Cheney yourself, now thats a great start to a holiday weekend.
PEACE!
ABB&B!!!
Begala asked, in the spirit of patriotism, if Novak would retract his statement. Novak's actual response:
"Thank you, Paul, for giving me an opportunity to correct that unfortunate misimpression. I simply meant that McDougal's death prevented Starr from reaching the bottom of the story, not that Clinton killed McDougal."
Wait, you mean he didn't say that?
This is a typical smear tactic, perfected by the right. They conflate two statements that suggest something that is untrue, but then refuse to clarify their remarks. Novak is perfectly capable of being unambiguous, as is Cheney. The fact they choose not to clarify is proof that they intend to deceive.
It' always a hoot to see a low class bully like Novak get his due. It was great seeing Begala remain calm and Novak sputter and literally slobber all over himself. Hope Jon Steward jumps on this one!
No, it's not too fucking fun to be caught lying on national television. Novak still belongs in prison for outing Wilson's CIA agent wife. He deserves a good ass-kicking for serial slander and lying.
Now let's call Ann(thrax) Coulter on her many sladerous lies. I love to watch her Adam's Apple twitch when she is caught uttering an untrueth.
Starr had plenty of time to talk to McDougal, but what McDougal was telling him turned out to be fantasies. The Hunting of the President, p. 317, has this story.
By the time McDougal died, Starr had discarded him.
Didn't McDougal die because of neglect - in other words, he was worse than discarded, but deliberately and malignantly, it would seem, negelected? Or does our prison system routinely deprive the chronically ill of their meds? Either answer would work I guess.
"...the truly amazing thing is that it's a big deal when a liberal smacks back at a conservative ...."
This is key. It's why the fact that Arizona Democrats finally pulled themselves together sufficiently to take action against Nader's crooked little attempt to game the system is being met with such horror - how dare they! How dare they actually fight back, how dare they succeed!
Anyone notice how the room got all quiet like everyone had just seen their parents arguing and had just shared an uncomfortable moment? ....
now come on grampa. you got some punk rock comrades right here in the foxhole next to ya.
r@d@r
Read it again. It was about a bunch of dumbass crackers being hooked on the manipulative anger pushers like Rush and Hannity. Maybe punk was a bad example, but you have to admit that there is a lot of very focused anger involved in the art. It's not problem if you want to use the age thing to make a point, but maybe you should know who your writing to before you make an assumtion like that. I've got a strat right here in my studio and maybe we could trade downloads and see who the grampa is.
Begala has been at Novak quite a bit lately. I recall a "maybe you should attack his wife, Bob" thrown in for good measure in the last few weeks.
Did anyone hear the Diane Rhehm show yesterday? Some idiot actually said that Rush Limbaugh never lies to the degree Michael Moore does. I could not believe what I was hearing. Then I heard the outro that it was Stephen DAvis(?). It was that idiot who wrote "the Connection". I recall Jon Stewart making a complete fool of this clown on TDS last week.
How do these totally discreditted hacks get so much airtime? Even more frustrating was that of the three people on the panel discussing Moore's film only one had actually seen it.
OT One aspect of the 'Nader loses in AZ story' that is getting NO air is that the Republican party financed the petition signature drive.
It's called the "Big Lie" technique, first explained by Hitler in Mein Kamph.
""All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
I'm so jealous of Bobby's teeth.
This is just another example of the pass that the right wing gets on outrageous statements. Remember Jesse Helms? Talking about President Clinton visiting a North Carolina military base in November 1994 he said:
"...he better watch out if he comes down here. He'd better have a bodyguard."
Now, I thought language like that was supposed to get you a swift visit from the Secret Service. But these guys spew this venom routinely.
Good for Paul. I can only say: Keep it up. If you let them get by this time, the next time they'll go further.
We need, all of us, to keep right wing liars and slanderers in check. Let Paul Begala, Al Franken, and others take care of the public figures. Each of us should monitor our local papers and defend Kerry and other Democrats if lies like this make it into print. It's our job. A lie left unanswered is as good as the truth to the uninformed.
Go! Go! Go!
:.
"Is there any particular word or phrase that describes this method. I have been racking my brain cells for one and as yet have come up with one."
The Mighty Wurlitzer
http://tinyurl.com/2vf8n
Not sure if someones pointed this out, but after Novak went to commercial, he didnt wait for them to cut the sound and we heard him say something along the lines of "That was way over the line Mr. Begala, way over.." and then commercial time.
That was way over the line but alerting the North Korean gestapo to American contacts is a-okay.
"It's called the "Big Lie" technique, first explained by Hitler in Mein Kamph."
That sounds about right when I think of it.
I find it scary Mein Kamph continues to have relevancy. I need to read it again. I have this gut feeling it is practically a primer for current times.
CSpan is showing their Viet Diehn presentation of the Partiot Act and detention rulings as part of a guest panel from Georgertown...
Almost On topic, as Mein Kempf is about changing perceptions to push the lie as truth, and Viet is a prime example...
Love it! We've got to keep this up!
This was a perfect response to Novak's talking point attempt to continue to paint the left as shrill, pessimistic, etc. We can't allow them to control the dialogue the way that they have for the last 12 years.
Mr. Novak, your pants are on fire.
Novak's outrage of the week: The same ad from the Nation.
the day before Begala also slipped in a zinger that I bet escalated after the show. Begala followed a typical Novak ad hominem against, I think in this case it was Teresa Heinz Kerry, with a refutation followed by his rhetorical question about why is it that Republicans take such delight in attacking the wives of Democrats. He named Hillary and then said something like ``and Joseph Wilson's wife Valerie Plame, for that matter.''
Novak just glared at him for a second as a lot of the audience applauded and quickly changed the subject. Begala wasn't kidding around either; it's like he'd come onto the set pissed off.
Finally, backbone.
This is great.
Can someone help start a meme to get anyone who is going to be on Crossfire with Novak should ask him over, and over and over again about who leaked the name!!!
Spread the word!
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