I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I love it.
YOU BROKE ESCHATON!
This is curious. I wonder how representative this statement is of the fundies? But it's true that they don't like governments to interfere too much in religions unless their specific type of religion is given the dominant role. Still, I'd be interested in hearing what other religious people say.
Tena - Looks like you did not close that last italics tag...
Yes italics bad. Moving along...
I believe the SBC is trying to keep firmly to one side of this -- I mean they already organize voter drives, have GWB speak to the annual convention (3 times!) etc. In order to protect their tax-exempt status and avoid alienating people, I would definitely see a strong public statement to protect their tax-exempt status.
Plus, as somebody mentioned on another blog, people don't like their personal information hijacked. Even conservatives.
They don't like the fact that the shoe is on the other foot. They like the church to infiltrate the state. This seems a little too much like the state infiltrating the church. Maybe now they'll begin to see the reason for separation of church and state.
And the media meme that Kerry's keeping too quiet? Hell, he doesn't have to do a damn thing but get on the ballot if these freaks keep this shit up.
I never thought I'd see the day that the SBC got pissed at the Bush campaign.
Ah, the critics and editors have arrived. Thanks for the tip - I did close that tag, I'm pretty sure. So I'll blame it on Haloscan.
But anything is possible -
What do you wanna bet that some church lady or man somewhere, is going to grab those names of those church lists to sell their Amway, Mary Kay cosmetics, Tupperware or whatever.
Personally, I hope the Bush/Cheney (or actually, Rove/Hughes) drive succeeds, just for that reason - because you know that once people discover their personal information (from a church, no less) was forwarded without their permission, it's going to royally piss people off, namely the people they're hoping to get votes from.
Wait, wait, certainly this is all OK since these ppl are all republicans.
right?
What we need is a satanist church to go big time for this and try to help out the GOP all they possibly can.
...and while gaining good press for their church at the same time.
sounds like win/win to me.
Nay, nay, Tena - you didn't close the italics tag after the word "Commission".
I know, everyone's a critic...
Buck hit the nail right on the head. The Southern Baptists aren't sincere about this. They just want to continue to function as a wing of the Republican Party while being exempt from taxes, while they try to withhold tax exemptions from Unitarian congregations in Texas.
I'm sure they'll have fun after services Sunday morning, laughing at how they're fooling people with their phony outrage. Then they'll discuss their plans to get out the vote Nov. 2 for the Republicans.
Woo-hoo! Italics Night at Eschaton! Party down!
Furry Southern Baptists to Bush: Go dunk yourself!
I called their phony outrage last week when they got all pissed at NPR for Bradley-Hagerty's statement that the SBC's voter issues website was urging folks to vote republican. I mean, Babs is their gal. I sure traffic's up at ivotevalues.com, though.
Fuckers.
musing graze - You get it! I just decided to play a little instead of being tense over being a sub. So I started with the italic tag, since I have almost never used it. That was fun.
Biblio makes the point well. Look at these two quotes from the linked-to article, bothh from Southern Baptists:
"The bottom line is, when a church does it, it's nonpartisan and appropriate. When a campaign does it, it's partisan and inappropriate."
"It's one thing for a church member motivated by exhortations to exercise his Christian citizenship to go out and decide to work on the Bush campaign or the Kerry campaign."
Both quotes, from prominent Southern Baptists, are lies, or at least deceptions. When a Southern Baptist church gets involved in a campaign, it is partisan. Frankly, I think it's appropriate; we all know the role of black churches in the civil rights movement. But the guy is lying; the Southern Baptist Convention's role, and individual congregations' roles, are purely partisan. I thought they believed it was a sin to lie, but apparently not when it's politically useful.
And then the quote from the outgoing SBC president that it's OK for church members "to go out and decide to work on the Bush campaign or the Kerry campaign" -- does he think he's fooling anybody? The phrase "or the Kerry campaign" is a fig leaf. There is no excommunication in the Baptist church; otherwise, Kerry supporters, if there were any, would be kicked out of the church. As it is, any Kerry supporter would be shunned to the point of having to leave the congregation.
Buncha liars.
can some close the italics?
First the Catholics. Then the Baptists. Keep it up, Shrub, and you may alienate every truly religious person in the USA. I see that as a Good Thing.
Scorpio
Eccentricity
Oh behave, or I'll start blogging my cat. ; )
Thanks for the tip - I did close that tag, I'm pretty sure. So I'll blame it on Haloscan.
check it again, there's no slash in front of the i in the closing italics tag.
Yes, the thumpers are liars. It's exactly the same as the Vatican pretending that it's not meddlin' in American politics, which it has in every election since JP II took office.
Their goal is to get hold of as much of that "faith based" tax-payer money as possible. Georgus is shelling that out faster than loaves and fishes. They'll support him and do the pretense of not taking sides so as to not rile people enough so that if he loses their tax exemptions are in danger.
Speaking of Haloscan. I don't get trackback, apparently no one else does either. I read the explaination but don't understand it at all.
Tena: Blog the kitty, already. Jeez, don't we need a break from all this political BS once in a while?
Can we officialy call them Christian Taleban now? And another thing - TAX THE BASTARDS - TAX ALL OF THEM!!! Its been a free ride for all the psuedo religo-political parties for way too long. But tax them all the same I guess. Or not, just tax the shit out of them.
Tena - Gives the site a whole new slant, doesn't it?
Best wishes with the guest blogging! Where's the rest of the A-team? (Practicing their twirls for tomorrow?) Slackers!
Someone sent me this interactive fireworks pagetoday. (Click the sky over Lady Liberty repeatedly for maximum effect).
Upon further inspection, I discovered it's hosted by a New Jersey Assembly of God youth ministry site. Anybody know the story on this denomination? Are they end-timers? They appear to be fond of music and art.
I have strong suspicions that my cat is a neocon: He whines all the time, and when he makes a mess on the floor, he never takes responsibility for his actions.
(More political BS: Anyone else hear the new report that the US returned five terrorism suspects to the Saudis, even though we were pretty sure they'd just let them go? Lovely...)
OT but from an earlier thread...
Jenny et al, here is my post over at the
HarmonicaChump site
You say the rich should pay the same rate of tax as anyone else, also known as the "flat tax". You support this by claiming that the rich use the same services as anyone else. What you fail to address is, that being true, why the rich should pay ANY more than anyone else.
The so called "flat tax" is in reality only a "flat rate tax". What we really need in this country to be more fair to the rich is an absolute tax amount that would be the same for all regardless of income. I call this concept the "One Tax". A poor man pays $500 a year for tax; a man who earns $1,659,211.13 in one year should also pay only $500. After all, "they use the same services". Only a communist or a christian would say otherwise.
I'm sure you'll agree this is a sensible plan that would bring some long overdue relief to our productive and under appreciated upper class overachievers, like the President, and put the whiners and losers that wanna just collect a paycheck and waste time in their rightful place (under a rock, I hope).
Sincerely,
A working class Joe who appreciates his superiors
OK, back to the political BS. No, wait, this is Religious BS. No wait...
Anyway, this whole SBC thing is all part of the dance. When a church puts up it's second building, hires another Pastor, and becomes a Church, it becomes a political organization. Hell--oops, I mean "heavens"--take the politics out of the Bible and what you have left would be a pamphlet, not a tome.
Religion is depressing, anyway. I mean, how do you talk to someone who really really believes all that silly stuff? I don't mean necessarily just a belief in a Creative Force or Higher Power, or whatever. That's unproveable one way or the other. Far too many religious people believe mainly in their Church, and the innate superiority of it's members (and the inate inferiority of all others).
(I just Goooooogled the spelling of in(n)ate, and what you see is what I got. I'll do it like I do the pronounstification of Linux; alternate.
And, say; out here in the East Texas Piney Woods, it's God's Popcorn Machine tonight. They always start up early out this way. (days, not hours) How are the sound effects where y'all are?
Upon reading Land's quote, Captain Renault's signature line from Casablanca ("I am shocked! Shocked!") came to mind unbidden - same surface indignation, and I'm guessing just as disingenuous.
ah screwed up the link, but you don't need to go there anyways.
musing graze - I don't know where those slackers are - I haven't heard or seen hide nor hair. Assembly of God - big big time end timers. There have been 2, maybe 3, Texas mothers who were members who have killed their children because they believed they would hurry the Rapture and the Return of the Big J by doing so. I think they should be investigated. But that's just me.
Upon further inspection, I discovered it's hosted by a New Jersey Assembly of God youth ministry site. Anybody know the story on this denomination? Are they end-timers? They appear to be fond of music and art.
musing graze
Snicker. Chuckle. Aseemblies of God is Ashcroft's church. They consider dancing a one-way ticket to sin and depravity.
Glad to know I'm not the only one seeing the page in all italics. For a minute there I thought I was the victim of another IE hijack. And here I just finished getting rid of the last hijackware infestation! LOL.
I'm waiting for them to use god's "flat tithe" as a justification for flat tax.
Way OT, but pretty stunning news:
Iraq's new government may be offering amnesty to insurgents, and has already declared attacks on the US to date to be legitimate, since the attacks were against an occupying force.
Probably a smart way to slow the violence, but sounds like bad news for our soldiers, who are still there despite the "transfer of sovereignty."
Yikes! With moms like that, no wonder the junior ministry devotes a page to nothing more than a logo declaring "Youth Alive!"
But psst . . . don't tell Ashcroft . . . their frontpage poll results show that 38.5% would like to win first place on Survivor, while 31% want top prize in their National Fine Arts Festival (includes a dance category), 23% would accept the title of American Idol, and 7.4% dream of Star Search.
Where eaglets soar!
how did people put up with bullshit so long?
i shouldn't talk. sheeple in WI took tommy fucking thompson's bullshit for over 10.
It proably comes down to being told what to do. Christian Fundamentalist religious types don't take orders very well. Playing other people is their game, being played is a situation they don't seem to care for very much.
Can I post a URL or does it do wonky things?
http://esotericaofleesburg.com/
j...sussavesJtn.jpg
"artwork" above was inspired by the DOJ-can't-read-their-database story. Visit my homepage for spidery snidery.
Oops, I forgot to vote. I too would like to see Tena's cats.
Dude... I thought I posted something like this on the "Suckers" thread??
Oh well. Props to Richard Land. Good to see that he has some scruples and morals.
Of course, once a church gets involved in the campaign, the Rethugs can use the threat of losing tax-exempt status to control them. Or, if they're good, maybe they'll get some faith-based turkee.
And of course, they can play favorites between denominations
What a racket!
Faith-debased politics, ain't it.
Mooser--But at least we are free to worship as we want here in America, and free to have that information turned over to the government for political purposes.
Yay Freedom!!
OT (sorry)
More for the HarmonicaChump...
"On second thought, I think the rich should pay a smaller amount than the poor. We lousy ingrates who always expect someone to give us a job and then harp about things like "decent and safe working conditions", whatever that means, should pay more in taxes because we only take from society while the rich are DOING THINGS, like CREATING WEALTH.
Too bad our great American entreprenuers still have to pay us bozos anything at all. Hopefully, soon we'll all be automated and offshored out of existence and the rich will finally be free to own EVERTHING and spread their superior genes and culture throughout the universe.
Now let's get back to smoking a bong or whatever it is we do and let the RIGHT people keep running things like they always have and should.
sincerely,
Joe Dittohead"
Funny thing about that wall between church and state -- it benefits the church as much as it benefits the state. Let's pretend it's five years from now and BushCo has succeeded in installing its theocracy... Now, let's imagine somewhere out in the hinterlands there's another Timmy McVeigh with a chip on his shoulder about something the government did that he didn't cotton to. Well, there aren't nearly as many federal buildings as there are churches. Heck, in some parts of the country there aren't even 7-11s as there are churches. So neoTimmy gets hisself a Ryder truck, a couple of tons of fertilizer, and he parks it outside a church. And that's how he registers his displeasure.
Sure, it's a stretch. But is it that much of one??
Of course, once a church gets involved in the campaign, the Rethugs can use the threat of losing tax-exempt status to control them. Or, if they're good, maybe they'll get some faith-based turkee.
Mooser: I think, last anyone checked, zero faith-based money went to non-Christians, and only a little went to Catholics (whose poverty programs are usually quite good). Most of it went to the Usual Suspects--the kind of churches that, as you say, would put up with giving congregants' names to the GOP. I think the technical term is "simony."
So the 2-10% of Americans who are gay were forced to pay money to people who want them dead. New Yorkers are forced to shell out to people who want us dead (usually phrased as some variant of "9/11 was God's judgement"; faith-based recipients Falwell and Robertson famously riffed on it).
Molly--As far as I have ever read, you are right regarding the allocation of "faith-based" moneys. And it drives me all the more nuts when I think about they facts that you point out about queers in America. Maddening.
And, yes, the Catholic charitable network consistently scores at or near the top in how little they spend on admin, and how much actually gets to where its needed.
Just to inject a little balance, my parents are both HARDCORE Souther Baptists who would cut off their heads before voting Republican on ANYTHING.
I'M more Republican than they are.
Blakely - I saw your comments over at HarmonicaMan's site, and greatly enjoyed them. But go back and check it out...he took you seriously! He now has up a post trumpeting your $500 tax per person, regardless of income idea! What a maroon!
...
What we need is a satanist church to go big time for this and try to help out the GOP all they possibly can.
...and while gaining good press for their church at the same time.
sounds like win/win to me.
justathought
I thought the Moonies had this covered.
I was raised Southern Baptist, and despite all the other crap I was taught to believe, a severe mistrust of any sort of church-state linkage was ingrained in me. In fact, part of the anti-Catholicism bias entailed being told that "Catholics are taught that they must vote the way their priests tell them to... how un-American."
The tightening up of the linkage is part of what made me go church-shopping.
I'd say it's quite fair for gays to complain about paying taxes when money goes to organizations that wish them death - it was the argument for why the government shouldn't fund abortions.
Posted this in the comments to the post below, but it should be here - please close the italics tag, it screws up the posts below.
Ha-HA
Separation of Church and State works both ways. Not only doesn't mean we should have a Christian (or any other religion) theocracy in charge of the government, but it also means the government can't interfer with the operations of the church (unless it does something illegal, like human sacrifices and such).
The SBC should've known this. In fact, all religious organizations should have it tattooed on the insides of their eyelids. Maybe they should contact the Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
the rovians are really reachin when they are beseechin the holy rollers to jeopardize their tax exempt status -- probably a good sign indicating the bush holers' desperation -- just wait until the iraq shit really starts hitting the fan during the run up to the election Aug Sept Oct. what a fuckin disaster waitn to implode.
Fuck You George! You lying sack of shit! Fuck You Cheney! You maggot-infested creep! Hope the Neo-clowns rot in hell. BTW, Happy 4th. Yeah Right.
Traditionally, SB churches were very anti-authoritarian, and tended to be small because they are "natural" democracies, and thus, every decade or so, they get too big to achieve consensus and split apart. So what's been going on over the last 20 years has actually been a fairly radical departure, and probably at least half the membership of the SBC have never bought into it, particularly in more urban locations. I don't know if this latest salvo by Rove is a "cross the line" kind of moment, but nobody likes it when their private information is disseminated -- what are they going to ask for next, a tithing record?
Fuck the Baptists.
They have engaging in sodomy with the republicans for two decades now.
Now they want to pull up thier pants.
Sure, it's a stretch. But is it that much of one??
I am appalled at how quickly history is forgotten.
A "black" church was bombed during the civil rights struggle, because white racists understood that the power center for the struggle was the church.
Children were killed in that explosion.
Of course mixing church & state puts the church at risk. But it's actually mixing politics and religion that is the volatile mix. It's all a matter of what you hope to gain from the mixture.
The right wing wants power. The civil rights marchers wanted power.
Power to live as free human beings, as equals to others in society. But that takes power. They knew no one would give it to them.
Fuck the Baptists.
They have engaging in sodomy with the republicans for two decades now.
Now they want to pull up thier pants.
Ah, this is the kind of intelligent commentary that Eschaton is famous for attracting. So wise, so insightful, so full of moral wisdom....
As I mentioned on another thread yesterday, at our local Fourth of July parade yesterday, the Assembly of God people had a bunch of marchers with signs talking about "We believe in the Ten Commandments," "We believe in the Sanctity of Marriage," and something else (which I don't remember, but it had to do with "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance). My response was to chant loudly from my porch, "I believe in the First Amendment; I believe in the separation of church and state."
I'd had no dealings with and no opinion of the Assembly of God before that, but at this point I would definitely look at those guys with some skepticism.
One of Bush's problems is that the social conservatives are beginning to distrust him. They view him as taking them for granted. His "anti gay marraige" amendment doesn't really impress them as they view that as a phony attempt to appease them. They know what the odds of passing a constitutional amendment are and feel he just threw that out there and is trying to play them for fools. They may be dogmatic, but they aren't stupid. Bush has a problem because he is going to have to offer them something he can deliver or watch his support from them erode.
CLOSE THE ITALICS TAG!! THERE'S NO SLASH! HELLO??? IT'S BEEN MESSED UP ALL NIGHT!
Nora - Just so you know, Assemblies of God are one of the denominations where "speaking in tongues" is prevalent. They don't allow women to cut their hair, wear makeup, or wear pants, even in the larger, more urban congregations.
They may handle snakes as well, though not in every church.
PLEASE!
Close the italics, that is...
CLOSE THE ITALICS TAG!!
yes, it's been pointed out around 400 times cf. the rest of this thread. lighten up, it's a holiday.
Besides, italics are the official type style of Independence Day. Thanks for all the italics, Tena! Happy 4th!
what's wrong with italics?
Yes, it was pointed out many times, and ignored or mocked by Tena, which is why I was YELLING.
"I am appalled at how quickly history is forgotten."
Not here it isn't. I'm well aware of the targeting of black churches during the Civil Rights struggle. And while we can debate the nature of the white power structure in the south back then, strictly speaking neither party was a government entity. What Bush either envisions or is willing to tolerate -- 'cause I'm not sure Bush or his cretinous cronies really understand what they're unleashing -- is to make churches and federal buildings interchangeable as targets of scorn at least, and maybe something worse.
Also, this format doesn't really lend itself to a discourse quite that exhaustive.
Jennifer, thanks for the info. Whoa. Didn't even know we had groups like that here (small city in upper Westchester County, New York). Eeek.
The SBC is getting painted with the same brush as the Bush administration and that is something that no one would want. They are starting to be viewed as fanatical lunatics. The Bush admin is trying to get access to the names and contacts so that they can contact SBC members directly and leave the SBC leadership out of it. It is going to require some drastic steps by the leadership to reign the flock in now.
The state organizations w/in the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) are quite autonomous, more so since the biggest (Hey, ya'll, guess what?? It was Texas!!) split off in the late '90s because the SBC was just too doggone librul. So, it's unlikely that an SBC commission chair's opinion will have much--any?-- influence at the grassroots level. Still, it's good to read that someone from SBC has joined other religious leaders in condemning the BC'04 effort to use church rosters for political purposes.
Dick "the dick" Cheney says the use of italics is french, and therefore against the American way.
Just FYI:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/n...nws-
evan02.html
The world of Evangelicals is much broader than many think.
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