I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
flog away, Holden!!!!!!
lol! Somebody better come up with something in the way of proof soon, or this story is going nowhere.
David Patterson, where are you? Let's discuss our coffee plans. I LOVE the way your mind works.
lol! Somebody better come up with something in the way of proof soon, or this story is going nowhere.
Yeah. Without videotape of bloodcurdling screams of children being sodomized, or photos from gleefully sadistic prison guards determined to humiliate their tortured prisoners, there's nothing to this but the testimony of two eyewitnesses who independently corroborate each other's stories.
What the hell kind of evidence is that?
What the hell kind of evidence is that?
------
In reality...not enough 
The names of the victims and location of the alleged killings are known.
Allawi should be asked if these men were in fact detained at the security cetner.
They should have records.
Proof or no, the allegations are serious enough that they need to be looked into. It's doubtful that Bush will bother.
As it is, he isn't too concerned about his own Army sodomizing children in front of their parents on videotape. Now if Allawi were promoting gay marriage, he'd be right on it.
Sodomy--it's only okay if it is used as a vicious, degrading, hateful act.
Keep flogging Holden, this story cannot go down the memory hole.
Names of 6 Victims, Eyewitnesses, time, place, and manner known, two specific eyewitnesses have come forward.
Thats a lot more of an evidentiary claim than we had for O.J. for crying out loud.
In reality...not enough
I imagine it would be in a court of law,
glug
David P, Toby, election theif:
Can we get together and have a circle-jerk? I'll be pivot man!!!
With any luck it will turn into a cluster fuck!!! My 2" penis gets hard just contemplating the though of such bliss!!!
There wasn't enough proof for what be came know as 'Watergate' either, but certain reporters wouldn't let the story die until they were able to piece the facts together into a coherent story.
Just the things Allawi has said are enough to raise alarm bells, and it's probably not too far of a stretch to imagine he's holding back for the coalition's sake, and until his power is more secure.
Either, Blackwater, or Curituck county NC, just received a $650K grant to upgrade the local airport. BW wants to move their flight ops from Florida to NC.
What ever happened to the rumor that the bush election had retained BW??
Ahhh! Something to obsess about and generalize into a sky-is-falling scenario. Where would we be without it?
Isn't it a bit strange that these two witnesses cannot be identified and have not spoken to anybody other than the journalist who broke the story? This would hardly be the first story to have originated in somebody's imagination. Remember Joe Wilson?
A good plan for trying to figure out any decision made by the Bush administrations is one we're familiar with. Follow the money.
Sodomy. It's what's for breakfast.
Just an excuse to stay and attain "peace with honor..." the RNC talking points memo...
That it happened in June is damning, bush has trumpeted him all along...
I am stroking the tender ruffled petals of my anus with delight, trembling at the prospect.
Any person with two brain cells to rub together would be able to guess that the identities of the witnesses, who independently corroborated the story, are withheld due to the fact that their lives would be endangered otherwise. A guy who would shoot 6 people in cold blood would, I'm sure, have no qualms about shooting 2 more who could cause him to lose his position of power.
On second thought, its just more dead ragheads. Who is really going to care?
Just as the Bush administration has no qualms about smearing honorable men who attempt to set the record straight with regard to administration lies.
I'm glad you can joke about it, Thug. I don't imagine the Iraqi children subjected to it found it very funny. It's nice to see good 'ol American empathy.
Friar dont touch that nasty thing, you dont know where its been. Now go wash your hands
Friar, I don't mean the children. I'm referrring to the pounding David Patterson's going to give me in my hot, tight mangina.
ooohhh that sounds fun. Can I join?
Guys, let's get a grip for a minute. We have ABSOLUTELY NO COMPELLING PROOF that any of this is true. I, for one, am tired of being shit on when these things fail to pan out.
Yep, keep apologizing for child sodomy. That's a good little ho.
From the LA Times:
--------------------------
BAGHDAD — After a second major car bombing in 24 hours, Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi vowed Thursday to "annihilate" militants and announced that his interim government was forming a new national security agency to fight the insurgency.
[snip]
Allawi has adopted an aggressive security stance since his government took over from the U.S.-led occupation June 28. The caretaker government has given itself the power to proclaim martial law, cracked down on crime in the capital and moved to re-integrate ousted members of Saddam Hussein's deposed regime to lure them away from the insurgency.
-----------------------------
annihilation, martial law, members of Saddam's regine...
Yeah, this is gonna be a shining beacon of Democracy in the Mideast......
don't apologize for me, I can do my own goddam apologizing if I feel like it. And I don't feel like it...
Well, S, what inflamatory and scurrilous allegations about Bush-sponsored brutality and law-breaking have failed to pan out?
From lying about WMD to the prison scandal to the abuse of detainees and the outing of a covert CIA agent to the Chalabi debacle, what has failed to come to pass?
I'm sure the names of the Blackwater "bodyguards" in the picture that Holden linked to can be determined in short order.
Sound like congressional subpoena time to me.
Oh. That's right. Both houses of congress are controlled by Republicans.
Down the memory hole we go.
S in Mich, WTF are you talking about? What has "failed to pan out"?
Or are you "from the other side" where nothing so far has "panned" out?
Oy vey! I get the sickening feeling this is going to spiral out of controll rapidly. Turning Iraq over to this thug was yet another magnificent mistake
I'd keep the sunglasses on if I were those guards.
And what exactly is wrong with annihilating the insurgents? The sooner the better.
Well, S, what inflamatory and scurrilous allegations about Bush-sponsored brutality and law-breaking have failed to pan out?
From lying about WMD to the prison scandal to the abuse of detainees and the outing of a covert CIA agent to the Chalabi debacle, what has failed to come to pass?
Stinky
Most, if not all, of our accusations regarding the WMD debacle have been debunked along with Joe Wilson and Richard Clarke. I am not going to hop onto the latest bandwagon based on hope and not fact. Until we have conclusive proof, then this is nothing more than a wild goose chase, IMHO.
Warthog, "annihilating the insurgents" will not end the insurgency. Dickhead.
Phoney S from Mich. RNC employee.
I see Allawi has about as finely honed sence of respect for the rule of law as ShrubCo does.
Oh, now Richard Clarke has been "debunked"?
Have I been living in a fucking cave, or do we need to start some serious IP banning here?
Or, does it need to shut up or it gets the whip again?
And what exactly is wrong with annihilating the insurgents? The sooner the better.
In ten years we'll have to re invade to Iraq to remove this thug from power. Give the ole war profiteer Cheney another bite off the apple
Not enough evidence ?
Christ, Bush had people executed when he was Governor of Texas on less evidence than this.
Name-stealing troll S in Mich:
Neither Wilson nor Clarke has been "debunked", or have you forgotten that the administration ADMITTED that the "16 words" should have never made it into the SOTU address? The administration itself verified Wilson's account of the facts.
As for Clarke, who can even guess what rightwing spin you're referring to? Nothing Clarke has said has been impeached with any evidence of any type.
Smarter trolls please. On second thought, keep up the good work. I like the idea of Karl Rove paying out campaign funds for worthless attempts at changing the subject.
This would hardly be the first story to have originated in somebody's imagination. Remember Joe Wilson?
This is the best you can do?
And what exactly is wrong with annihilating the insurgents? The sooner the better.
Said Israel about the Palestinians.
How long has it been now? Going on 50 years? Damned insurgents. They keep having children. And there's so many of 'em....
Smarter trolls, please.
BlakNo1 - LOL! "It puts the lotion on its skin...."
"Just more dead ragheaads...who's going to care." Yeah, that's what Saddam used to say...
Jennifer-
The picture of "these men".
They look like Repukes from a 'frat house'. The ones in blue shirts need to lose some pounds ( not exactly lean ansd mean ) and the one in the background looks really ;wet behind the ears'.
now i have been observing this blog for longer than probably just about anyone here, and it is my opinion that these trolls are more than just your ordinary trolls! i definitely believe that these guys are paid rnc operatives. and i expect to see increasing activity of this nature as nov. approaches.
perhaps atrios should start wielding the delete button with real viciousness. what does everyone think?
Okay, guys, now we've seen the new Republican spin: Clarke was "debunked" (though no one ever managed to disprove anything he testified to, and most of the people who have made noises about his credibility have obviously not read his book), and Wilson was a "liar" (though everything he said is provable and again, there have been no facts produced to disprove anything that he said, as compared to the Republican spin on what he said -- straw man, anyone?).
It's so good to have these trolls here, even if they do stink up the joint. They give us a clear view of what's going on in Republican-land.
When the Plame indictments come down, then we'll see these guys run, squealing, in every direction. Should be fun.
Holden - I have read somewhere that
NYT sunday magazine wrote about another such event. A week or two before taking over, Allawi visited a prison and saw some insurgents from Lebanon. He asked for an axe and cut off the arm of one of the prisoners in front of every one.
Can you find a link for that and post it? That will clearly show a pattern for Allawi.
Wilson was a "liar" (though everything he said is provable and again, there have been no facts produced to disprove anything that he said, as compared to the Republican spin on what he said -- straw man, anyone?).
Nora
Wilson published a letter in wapo today
proving that he was not. Also, the press does not make it clear that Wilson part of the report was not from the whole committee. Three repub senators wrote a special note as an appendix. What Dem Senators should have done was: to write a rejoinder right there in another appendix, taking the sting out of those right wing senators' note. Now Wilson unfortunatley was put in a catchup mode.
ecoast--
NYT sunday magazine wrote about another such event. A week or two before taking over, Allawi visited a prison and saw some insurgents from Lebanon. He asked for an axe and cut off the arm of one of the prisoners in front of every one.
Can you find a link for that and post it? That will clearly show a pattern for Allawi.
LINK
When the Plame indictments come down, then we'll see these guys run, squealing, in every direction. Should be fun.
Shooting at moving targets is more interesting anyway.
Thanks, Felix.
From NYT
By DEXTER FILKINS
Published: July 11, 2004
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Throughout this war-ravaged land, where facts are hard to come by, rumor and innuendo can often serve as the most reliable measure of the Iraqi mood. Consider the lurid tale about Iyad Allawi, the new Iraqi prime minister, that made the rounds in the Iraqi capital last week.
Late one night before taking power, the story went, Mr. Allawi was not to be found cramming for his new job but instead was in the innards of a Baghdad prison, overseeing the interrogation of a cabal of Lebanese terrorists. No one was talking.
"Bring me an ax," the prime minister is said to have announced. With that, the story went, Mr. Allawi lopped off the hand of one the Lebanese men, and the group quickly spilled everything they knew.
When Allawi is defeated in the "election" that has yet to be scheduled, he'll just say, "The people have spoken. Damn them."
Then he will instruct his "transition team" to make sure there is no transition.
Yeah, those security guys gaurding Allawi look like some kids I saw in line for Terminator 3. I have a nasty feeling that only relatively clueless wannabes would take that job...
these trolls are more than just your ordinary trolls! i definitely believe that these guys are paid rnc operatives.
My thoughts exactly. These guys spend a lot of time online, and they have the talking points as soon as they are generated by the talking point algorithm.
The NYT story admits in the first paragraph that the source is rumor and innuendo and you accept it as truth?
The quality of discourse around here makes the tin foil shortage understandable.
Look closely at that picture. The only black man/woman is wearing camo.
Are the civilian contractors all white men and the "armed forces" predominantly black? $houldn't thi$ pi$$ u$ off?
Repack - if these trolls are the best that Karl's Kids can buy, it's a desperate day in GOP World.
You GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Holden!
Flog, Flog, Flog, and FLOG SOME DAMN MORE!!!
We will NOT go silently into the night.
Frankly Hudson, the fewer black people standing next to Allawi when the car bomb goes off, the better...
The NYT story admits in the first paragraph that the source is rumor and innuendo and you accept it as truth?
The quality of discourse around here makes the tin foil shortage understandable.
Warthog
This is the problem with dumb trollers. Dexter Philkins is one of the most reputable NYT reporters.
He put all those qualifiers because he couldn't nail it down all the way, but felt confident enough to publish. Now, don't you think, in the light of Sydney Morning Herald report, that Philkins will revisit his report, go back to his sources, try to get more detail and sources and nail the story?
And for those who are saying there is not enough evidence. BULLLLLLLLLLSHITTTTTT.
It's that kind of thinking that is forcing us to flog the hell out of this story from a weblog!!!!
Two witnesses who are telling the same story to a well-respected journalist is all the evidence they should need to pursue this matter further and call for an investigation, IF THEY WANTED TO DO SO. It's up to us to make sure that they can't ignore the allegations.
AND LET'S NOT FORGET, the journalist listed names of THREE of the victims. I'd say that's a pretty specific charge.
Re: Banning trolls--shouldn't we be using this opportunity for target practice? I mean, their spin points are the ones that are going to be mindlessly repeated on a local level, in letters to the editor and at barbershops, between now and the election. Get your bookmarks ready _now_, get your arguments honed and less-than-persuasive parts replaced with better ones _here_, where it really doesn't matter.
Just a suggestion.
BTW, I wouldn't be too sure about a Plame indictment turning on the light for the cockroaching trolls. I've got $10 says there is no indictment before the election. Just a hunch.
Holden, I was away for 2 days, in a little news bubble, frollicking with Mr. B and the 4 wee-biblios in beautiful Lake George, NY. I was missing the Eschatoids immensely!
As soon as I got up this morning I checked in here and read up on this story. You rock, my man. Flog away.
Look closely at that picture. The only black man/woman is wearing camo.
Are the civilian contractors all white men and the "armed forces" predominantly black? $houldn't thi$ pi$$ u$ off?
Hudson
i have never seen a website so rife with guilty white consciences. black folks are not like the criminals they show you on tv, ok? they are just normal people and you don't have to be afraid of them, cross the street when they appraoch or count their numbers incessantly. i know you guys never actually get the chance to interact with any but it is really much ado about nothing, i swear. who knows, one day you guys may leave your all-white liberal enclaves and see the world the rest of us live in. if that ever happens you will undoubtedly be surprised to find that it is not such a terrible place after all. surely nothing like you are used to seeing on TV.
The whole mess in Iraq just proves that you simply cannot make this shit up. No matter how bad you think it is, it's actually worse.
thief - nice try...meanwhile, your yard looks like shit.
Trolls are so stupid.
What our friends were saying was that Blackwater's employees are largely white men. Which corresponds to former Special Ops people.
Now, if said mercenaries were watching Allawi murder people in cold blood, well, they should have stopped Saddam II in his tracks.
I wonder if the executions resembled this one?
http://www.modernhumanities.org/...s/
execution.jpg
Robots smarter than Republicans.
Big Vic - I've always known the "national security - avenge 9/11 - pre-emption" stuff was a crock in regards to Iraq, but when the war was on and Saddam fell I took some solace in the idea that at least our kids had taken down a whack-job of a dictator so it wasn't all for nothing. It seemed like whatever else was bullshit, the Iraqis were better off. That still may be marginally true for the time being, but this administration is so incompetent that five years from now we may look back and realize that they even blew that "no-brainer" part of the deal bigtime. You're right - no matter how cynical one started off about this war, it just keeps getting worse and worse.
There was a piece in either the Post or the Times the other day that made it clear the Bushniks have even screwed guys like Kanin Makiya, the "liberal democratic" Iraqi professor in exile who exhaustively documented Saddam's crimes. Apparently Bremer promised him funds for a human-rights archive in Baghdad on the Saddam-era victims, then, as he left town, said sorry, deal with Allawi's guys. Makiya had served his purpose because of his pre-war contacts with liberal "human-rights" hawks like Michael Ignatieff, but now he's disposable and the thugs are taking over.
I do think the "human rights" pro-war faction like Ignatieff, Friedman and some of those jerks at TNR will be getting increasingly pissed and embarrassed and vocal about this flood of garbage. They don't have any credibility with me, but they are influential among people who went along with the war but are upset by the outcome.
Check this out:
But according to the journalist's sources, the six men were killed by a bullet to the head in front of at least twelve police officers and four Americans who were serving as the PM’s personal security detail.
Also, the executions appear to have settled a personal score.
The newspaper gives the name of three of the victims and says that two of them were from Samarra, the hometown of the Interior Minister, whose home had been attacked on June 19th by insurgents who killed four of his bodyguards. .
And
the bodies were loaded into a utility van and buried in the desert near Abu Ghraib.
Well, while the right-wingers socialize with their black and brown gardners and maids (Powell, Paige and Rice come to mind), we'll live here in the world where equality for all citizens is the measure of freedom. The maladministration may have put a nice face on their "big tent", but excluding thousands of minority voters by name association doesn't look very much like freedom and equality, nor does yapping about the sanctity of marriage while disenfranchising thousands from it. Only in the imaginary whitewashed world of the far right would a constitutional amendment limiting freedom have any grip at all. America's values are swirling 'round the bowl as we try to flush the stinking feces that have stolen our government and our reputation, all in the name of "I want more, because god told me only I am worthy"... creeps leading morons, that's the parade, with the christian coalition following behind to clean up the shit...
It's hysterical to see the Repubs claim Clarke and Wilson were "debunked."
Remember, the things they scream mostly loudly about are the things they're most afraid of--Edwards, Clarke, Wilson/Plame, etc.
It is indeed amazing to see how scared they are of so many different things.
Dubya is toast, baby.
Meet the new boss, same as the old Boss. So the US is backing a thug who is probably every bit as bad as Saddam - tell me why we should be surprised!
Ronjazz - no need to get so worked up about that troll's post. It was just a moldy breadcrumb on a hook... I checked his email address and it turns out the guy lives next door to my aunt in Montana. She's always complaining about the grass growing two-feet high around his trailer.
fkn spooks, they are always so obvious. the furtive glances, the f'n SUNGLASSES, gives 'em away everytime. brutish, murderous, strongmen are a little harder to spot, especially if you don't want to see.
So the US is backing a thug who is probably every bit as bad as Saddam.
Ah, but if you kill for "Blackheart" John Negroponte, you're a champion of freedom.
Looks to me that Allawi has cut a deal with Shi'a and Kurds that only the Sunni insurgents and Islamic radicals get killed. Allawi is only 1/3 as bad as Saddam, to whom nearly every family in Iraq has lost someone.
However, Allawi is proven to be a bloodmouth and enjoys revenge killing just like Saddam.
to all trolls, calling all trolls, go to buzzflash (enemy territory is so sexy) look up article by david corn, yea, it's in the nation. ok, now if you have not melted yet, scroll down, here you will find links to roberts, hatch, and some other rethugs addendum to their incomplete intelligence report. read it, then find the other link, joe wilsons rebuttal letter to senator roberts. we report, you decide. of course i know who i'm going to believe, come to think of it, i know who you are going to believe.
if fitzgerald doesn't hand down indictments you win and democracy loses, this time. but the left is on to your f'n bullshit, and "i'm optimistic, 'cause i have faith in the 'murican people"
The mantra for right-wing moral relativists: "But at least he isn't as bad as Saddam."
Come to think of it, that just might be a good campaign slogan for Bush.
No, brucds, this is the same thing they were saying back when Saddam was our man.
Then they switched to saying how bad he was, that he'd gassed his own people, that Amnesty Itnl. was a reputable sourse all of a sudden.
Our puppets' brutality will get the same pass as our own. The target-of-the-month will be transformed into the Atrocity Liberals Won't Tell You About, even if the left has been screaming about it for a decade.
Some of us are old enough to remember the 80's ... ;->
Oh, and to the War Room trolls whose brain-droppings have been littering our threads for days, I have this simple message:
tell that She-Wolf of the SS you pay $500 an hour to roll your anal egg in kosher salt and crank the remote all the way up
and think of me...
to all trolls, calling all trolls, go to buzzflash (enemy territory is so sexy) look up article by david corn, yea, it's in the nation. ok, now if you have not melted yet, scroll down, here you will find links to roberts, hatch, and some other rethugs addendum to their incomplete intelligence report. read it, then find the other link, joe wilsons rebuttal letter to senator roberts. we report, you decide. of course i know who i'm going to believe, come to think of it, i know who you are going to believe.
Joe Says It Ain't So
Joe Wilson rises to his own defense in an open letter to the Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence ("SSCI").
In a separate section of the SSCI report (Additional Views, starting on p. 441), the Chairman had presented certain proposed conclusions to which the Committee could not unanimously agree. Apparently the Chairman believed that (1) "former Ambassador Joseph Wilson's public statements were not based on knowledge he actually possessed", and (2) "it was the former ambassador's wife who recommended
him for his trip to Niger."
To summarize the Ambassador's defense:
- the Chairman shouldn't call a memo from Wilson's wife singing his praises a "recommendation". It's a.... well, Wilson doesn't say. But I will note on his behalf that her memo was written just before Valentine's Day, so maybe it was a draft of something she meant for him alone.
- the Chairman should go back to the Democrats who refused to vote these conclusions out and remind them to include the exculpatory evidence in their Additional Views, or the main report, or somewhere. Evidently the presumably sympathetic Dems forgot to do this, but Wilson is sure there is a better story somewhere;
- we should believe some anonymous leaks in the press that tell a different story about his wife, because the press has been totally reliable on this story;
- in evaluating his public credibility we should focus exclusively on the words that come out of his mouth - we should ignore how others report on what he says, and ignore what he writes in his book. And anyway, where is their sense of artistry? He is quoted in the Senate report as explaining that for certain passages of the book, he used "a little literary flair".
The Ambassador does not address the matter of his anonymous credibility - the "misleading" information he leaked to the WaPo.
More Iyad "Saddam 2.0" Allawi news from Le Monde, courtesy of a dKos diary.
Surprise. Surprise. The reporter that has exclusive access to these anonymous witnesses also writes for a website that features the slogan "The best global source on the web for anti-war news,
views and updates on the international peace movement - updated daily. "
http://www.mwaw.org/article.php?...order=0&
thold=0
I guess when there's nothing real to "update daily" you just make it up.
Surprise. Surprise. The reporter that has exclusive access to these anonymous witnesses also writes for a website that features the slogan "The best global source on the web for anti-war news,
views and updates on the international peace movement - updated daily. "
Well, certainly if it's "anti-war news," it must be made up.
Because no bad news about this war could possibly be true.
(Another sad product of public education. You know, if we actually taught people to think, their comments might be interesting. Or at least logical.)
electionthief at 1:49 pm is what i am talking. too smart to post the usual lame and stiff troll stuff. a post like this has all the appearance of the work of a smart campaign worker.
of course as someone upthread said, allowing them to post gives us a preview of what they will be pushing in the more traditional news media very soon! and this gives us a chance to prepare for it.
a good point!
hmm, just wondering what the best course of action is, that's all.
Methinks someone needs to dig a little deeper into a website before making an accusation. One of Mr. McGeough's articles was copied onto the MWAW site. What isn't clear is whether or not he is a member of this group.
If one goes to the link indicated, a link in the date bar clearly says "SUBMIT NEWS." Articles from around the world are submitted to this website, from all kinds of publications around the world. Having an article available on a site doesn't mean that the author is a member of the site.
Smarter trolls, please.
And, my my, let's look at what's at the bottom of MWAW's top stories page (http://www.mwaw.org/search.php?query=&topic=33):
Disclaimer: articles on this site do not necessarily express the views of MWAW, rather they are brought to your general attention as articles of interest.
Isn't THAT interesting?
Geez. You guys trying to create the impression that you have standards? Whoopi me!
Better an impression than none at all, nimrod.
And am I correct in assuming that the NYT has not run the Allawi story yet? I just visited their site. On the other hand this 'rumour' did not originate at the RNC ...
Whoopi me!
which means "bush me?" "pubic hair me?" "vagina me?" i don't get it. what the cheney?
Roll on, rock on, Mr. (um)"Caffle," you're doing very well..
OT - I caught the end of Big Joe (Rating) Killer's on MSNBC last night, and he WILL HAVE GENE SIMMONS OF KISS refuting The Evil Mr. Moore on his show Monday night..
I refuse to laugh or cry.. Good Christ, you just can't make this shit up..
You need a more accurate count of the comments for each thread's link. I know this one's broken.
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