I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
he went by the name of mabel in those days. mabel the moron, to be exact.
Why should he? Those records clearly indicate that he appreciated his time in the guard and was proud of his service. Did you hear what I said? PROUD OF HIS SERVICE GOD DAMMIT!! HE GOT PAID FOR IT TOO!! CLEARLY.
And your Kerry, he through his medals or his ribbons. Bush didn't!
645 desertion warrants at a highly elite special mountain group unit? I find that hard to believ. I think it's an attempt at hiding death numbers.
I wasn't aware of a page in Bush's records saying "I appreciate my time in the guard. Really appreciate it." It's amazing what goes in the public record!
Desertion is a capital offence, but don't worry about Chimpy being shot at sunrise-- the Supreme Court recently ruled it unconstitutional to execute the mentally retarded.
Questions for the debate:
Mr. Bush, What do you think should be done to those who desert during times of war?
Mr. Bush, if you are defeated in November, will you return to the military and serve out the remainder of your time? If so, would you be willing to serve that time in Iraq?
If they can go after that guy who deserted in 1965 why can't they go after "C___sman Georgie"?
Did you hear Phillips on Moyer last night? He really went after Condi and other Bush thugs for being AWOL. It was so sad that I had to turn off the TV before Little whiny Tucker came on. One hour a week isn't enough for real news.
Hectate-
Bettter yet, a debate moderator should ask why the Bush girls, fresh out of college, have not volunteered for the armed forces.
If they can ask about a candidate's wife being murdered, they can ask that question.
Tee hee. This is from the DNC press release re: the timing of the records dump, er release on the Fri. before the Convention.
"aybe they'll find answers to the long list of unanswered questions that remain about George W. Bush's time in the Air National Guard. Bush's military records seem to show up as randomly as he did for duty."
Holden,
I love it.
Followed by: Mr. Bush, What's up with Jenna and that tongue thing?
Mr. Bush, Do you really expect any of us to believe that the twins' purported career choices are anything more than a figment of Carl Rove's imagination?
Mr. Bush, Is it true that Poppy had to threaten to disinherit the twins in order to get them to help out with your campaign?
Mr. Bush, Is it true that you paid for your maid's illegal abortion?
Mr. Bush, What, other than My Pet Goat, is the best book that you yourself have ever read?
Mr. Bush, What are your career plans following January 20, 2005?
I like to think of Shrub's valiant manual reading in Alabama as the precursor to the 101st Fighting Keyboarders.
The records do not give any new information about Bush's National Guard training during 1972, when he transferred to the Alabama National Guard unit so he could work on the U.S. Senate campaign of a family friend.
I don't think there was any "transfer" involved...
"So you see, Michael Price of Arlington, Virginia, the answer to your question of us, the Bush twins, which we find so humerous since we don't even look alike, is that we find the current geopolitical situation very troubling. But that is not to say that we don't think our father, President George W. Bush is a man of steadfast leadership and moral clarity. Furthermore, we would like to add, as the First Daughters, that we have found our time in Washington to be one of great challenge and resolve. We are committed to all that is good for America, for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
Next question...
Hecate, What? You don't believe that one of them is going to teach in Harlem? That the other one is going to join those nuns in the saris?
Rude Pundit has the goods on the Bush girls over the tongue thing. (Warning: Rude Pundit is NOT family-oriented commentary.)
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
i say the deserters say georgie made them do it.
Hecate, What? You don't believe that one of them is going to teach in Harlem? That the other one is going to join those nuns in the saris?
EPT
Back in June I read an article that sais both twins had signed up for internships. Jenna was to intern with a PR firm and Not-Jenna with a fashion house.
Now they say Not-Jenna will work with AIDS victims (after the election, mind you) and Jenna will teach at an inner-city school.
I like Steve Gilliard (the page Atrios links to)
but I think he's not actually paying attention to the numbers. The desertions started going up
in 2000. I wouldn't blame Bush's policies for that
anymore than I would blame Clinton for the
post-2001 economy.
This is a nice example of seizing on every negative number we can find and blaming Bush for it. There's plenty he deserves approbation for without exaggerating the case against him.
From Slate's summary of daily papers...
The NYT's Thomas Crampton treated himself to an online chat yesterday with First Twins Jenna and Barbara Bush, and reports that although the Q & A seemed to develop onscreen in near-real time, a spokeswoman for the girls later admitted to him that "some responses had been prepared in advance." Yeah, you might say that.
An excerpt from Jenna and Barb: "Our Dad is a man of strong and principled character. If he says he is going to do something, he will do it. ... And now even his critics can't argue that he is a steadfast leader who means what he says and acts with resolve."
George W. at an earlier press conference: "There is a resolve by these world leaders that is a heartening resolve. ... We must remain steadfast and strong. ... One thing is for certain, though, about me—and the world has learned this—when I say something, I mean it."
I wouldn't blame Bush's policies for that
anymore than I would blame Clinton for the
post-2001 economy.
Matt, who's blaming Bush for the numbers?
This is a nice example of seizing on every negative number we can find and blaming Bush for it. There's plenty he deserves approbation for without exaggerating the case against him.
Please.
The fact that the Bush Boy deserted his post in the 70's has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion.
Matt, I sat and listened to the repukes seize on any and everything that Bill Clinton did for eight years. The crap that the repukes made up about Clinton could fill a set of books the size of Webster's Dictionary.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, my friend. Or better yet, what goes around comes around.
Now lets get back to a little irrational Bush hating.
This is a nice example of seizing on every negative number we can find and blaming Bush for it. There's plenty he deserves approbation for without exaggerating the case against him.
Please.
The fact that the Bush Boy deserted his post in the 70's has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion.
Matt, I sat and listened to the repukes seize on any and everything that Bill Clinton did for eight years. The crap that the repukes made up about Clinton could fill a book the size of Webster's Dictionary.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, my friend. Or better yet, what goes around comes around.
Now lets get back to a little irrational Bush hating.
Shit, sorry for the double post. I tried to stop and edit the "set of books" mistake to no avail.
My bad.
Here's how Kerry's Vietnam record plays from the other side. On FARK yesterday:
You're an idiot. Kerry was in 'nam for 4 months before shucking his duty.. during which time.. he put his men in harms way for no reason other than he could try to be a hero like his idol. Sounds like a real winner. Idiots like you try to make it sound like he was in Vietnam for the whole conflict at the forefront of every battle and last one to leave.
Glad you think becoming a pilot is candyass, Bush used his daddy to get him a highly sought position of Fighter Pilot. Not getting out of serving like many of your heros did no doubt.
-------
Oh, and as for the medals Kerry awarded himself:
Hibbard, who was 34 at the time, said crew members reported they had spotted the Viet Cong fleeing on the beach and that Kerry fired a M-79, a small grenade launcher that struck some nearby rocks. Hibbard said Kerry was likely struck by a piece of shrapnel from the grenade.
The next day, Hibbard said Kerry approached him and said he had been wounded in combat and showed him a piece of shrapnel the thickness of a pencil lead that was less than a half-inch long.
"I described it as a fingernail scratch," Hibbard said. "He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, but I have no information of how or from whom."
Scottsboro, Ala., resident Louis Letson, a retired general practitioner, was the physician at Cam Rahn Bay who treated Kerry's wound. Letson backed up Hibbard's account of what happened.
Letson said he removed a small sliver of metal from Kerry's arm that was consistent with the material in an M-79 grenade and covered it with a Band-Aid. Letson said he remembers the event well because he saw few injuries at Cam Ranh Bay and the ones he treated stood out.
"I probably would not have remembered Lt. Kerry's name had it not been for the comments that some of his crew made to the medics," Letson said. "They said Kerry told them he was the next JFK from Massachusetts and would some day be president. I found that sufficiently interesting and amusing that I remembered the event."
-----
Getting a Purple Heart for a 2cm long 1mm deep shrapnel "wound" is cool? And since it was Kerry's third Purple Heart(the other two were received for similar wounds) he got pulled from his tour. You call that cool? Imagine this, 50 American soldiers in a MASH unit with missing limbs, bullet wounds and very other serious wounds and there sits John Kerry with a band-aid on his arm.
Too bad Patton didn't wander into that hospital and slap him with his glove.
Hecate, What? You don't believe that one of them is going to teach in Harlem? That the other one is going to join those nuns in the saris?
Dear EPT,
No, I do not believe that.
Neither do I believe that, having received my name from a very reputable source, the wife of a murdered Nigerian minister of trade will split $500 million with me if I only open a bank account with $1,000 of my own money and send her the account number.
I'm just a suspicious bitch, I guess.
The desertions started going up
in 2000.
At what point does Gilliard (or Atrios) "blame Bush" for these numbers?
Getting a Purple Heart for a 2cm long 1mm deep shrapnel "wound" is cool?
Please repukes, please, please, please, please, please keep up the attacks on Kerry's service record! I beg you!!!
Kerry will beat the Bush Boy like a red-headed stepchild on this subject.
He's still aWol...
NYT
Mr. Bush, who began a weeklong vacation on Friday at his ranch in Crawford, Tex., ordered his chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., to lead an administrationwide review of the recommendations and to report to him "as quickly as possible," a spokeswoman said.
Does the man do a friggin thing? Could he, maybe, take a look at the report and consider its recommendations himself? He's just sitting there on the ranch waiting for Andy Card to tell him what to do, like he did on the morning of 9-11.
What a weiner.
643 deserters? Too bad they can't afford James Baker so they could put up a defense of they aren't deserters but they are looking for the WMDs because they weren't in Iraq like they had been told...
What's irrational about hating Bush? I find it supremely rational, and I have real problems with the mental health of anyone in this country who doesn't hate him by now. You know, the great Janeane Garofolo line: I consider continued support for Bush to be a character flaw.
Did anyone see Scott McLellan's answers about this issue when it came out months ago.
Can you imagine the freeper response if anyone made fun of a present-day soldier's wounds the way they make fun of Kerry's?
OMG!!!! You're not supporting the troops! You hate America! OMG! OMG! OMG!
They'd be out for (cyber)blood (the only kind that doesn't make them faint).
But somehow, it's ok to make fun of Kerry's wounds.
OT, and not to troll-feed, but I have to remind folks of the origins of the name "Howard Beale": in Paddy Chayefsky's prescient movie Network, Howard Beale is an aging newsman who is about to be fired because his ratings are dropping, whereupon he has a bit of a meltdown and starts railing at the powers-that-be. After getting the listeeners to join him in yelling, at the top of their lungs, the famous cry "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" Beale becomes famous and listened-to, and he gets his own show on which to rant. However, the powers-that-be sink their hooks into him and turn him into a puppet (apart from his rage, he's not in a good mental state), so that by the end of the movie, he is nothing more than a tool. The film ends as Beale is killed by those who control him for a ratings boost.
So, our interlocutor, if it's a troll, is and idiot with a persecution complex, who doesn't understand much about why things are the way they are and for whatever "reason," prefers to blame people other than Bush and his ilk.
This sounds to me like your average defender of Bush. If it's not trolling, well, then, it's awfully strained attempt at "pretend" trolling.
"Now they say Not-Jenna will work with AIDS victims (after the election, mind you) and Jenna will teach at an inner-city school."
Holden Caulfield
Well, it was part of the plea-bargain arrangement. You remember, like father, like daughter...
If you have a reason, hatred is not irrational. It's how you act upon that hatred that makes it rational or not.
Having once, at the stupifyingly precocious age of four years and three months, perused that extraordinarily jejune tome "Catcher in the Rye", and having promptly dismissed it and all of it's myriad and sundry pregnant question marks as beneath my independently wealthy (albeit incogitably and inequitably verbose and stunningly all-comprehending intellect), I am more than passingly familiar with the pathologically envious and overweaningly puerile minds of the sort of benighted and pitifully futile individuals who post on third-rate cut and paste blogs to which I am, in my dedication to salubrious and salutiferous intervention unto the minds of those not unlike the poor and disadvantaged black twelve-year olds to whom I minister daily, addicted. What is an independantly wealthy genius to do?
All right, who's playing the role of Patterson-the-idiot-troll? Holden? C'mon, it's a good parody, but still....
That David Patterson is a bitchen righteous dude. I wonder what kind of car he drives?
If chimpy gets nailed for going awol,he will simply say he was protesting the vietnam war,just like kerry did.Ignoring Dostoyevskys' dictum of copping to a lesser crime,the chimp makes hay from the original felony.Remember,he didnt want to scare the children while we got squashed.
So, our interlocutor, if it's a troll, is and idiot with a persecution complex, who doesn't understand much about why things are the way they are and for whatever "reason," prefers to blame people other than Bush and his ilk.
This sounds to me like your average defender of Bush. If it's not trolling, well, then, it's awfully strained attempt at "pretend" trolling.
Technical Blandishmentiser - 11:33 am
Elegant, but totally wrong. Intellectualization, rationalization and probably a defense mechanism of some kind on your part to information you don't want to know. I've posted here a lot. Trolls are in the eye of the beholder.
The post was informational, so you could see what a successful smear the GOP have put on Kerry to negate the issue.
It just fries me to hear these fright-wingers bashing Kerry's war record.
If the shoe was on the foot,they'd be screaming bloody murder if you dared criticize a Republican's war record.
But if you dare criticize the draft-dodger who got himself into a champagne unit and didn't even bother to show up for his last year of duty...
this is the kind of shit that makes me loathe the GOP. I'd rather be dead than Republican.
What's irrational about hating Bush?
Nothing. I was trying for mild comic effect. Obviously I missed the mark.
Oh, and I am honored to have one of my posts responded to by Tena. Really.
I like the parody; it's dead-on. And I bet he drives an Escalante or a Hummer (and has never had one in his life.)
Somewhat OT: A former president of Mexico was just indicted for "disappearances" that happened in 1971.
So have a lttle patience. If you think it's still worth the trouble of sending Bush, Cheney et al. to prison after Kerry's sworn in (and considering the warning it would give to similar crooks, and how much it would do to repair what those SOBs did to America's honor, it may be) then with some work, we can make it happen.
But somehow, it's ok to make fun of Kerry's wounds.
Hecate
Well Hecate maybe we need to give them a taste of their own medicine.
Maybe we should start hollering about how un-American they are and how much they hate the military.
Kerry volunteered TWICE for combat duty. He didn't have to see a day of combat if he didn't want to.
How can any wingnut argue (rationally) with that?
Did George W. Bush volunteer for combat duty? NO.
Tena, I used to live on Escalante in Albuquerque and if that wasn't a bitch to spell when ordering from the LLBean catalogue....
I still say it's either Holden or our Lady of the Excess Vowels.
renato - not only did he not volunteer for combat duty, there is a letter somewhere in which he explicitly requests that he not be sent overseas. It's too bad, really. Given his propensities, he would no doubt have spend his time in Saigon shooting up heroin and we would not be in this goddamned mess now.
Bush's records seem to show up as randomly as he did.
GWPDA - could be worse - you could have lived in Tesuque and had to explain that one all the time.
Tena:
What's irrational about hating Bush? I find it supremely rational, and I have real problems with the mental health of anyone in this country who doesn't hate him by now. You know, the great Janeane Garofolo line: I consider continued support for Bush to be a character flaw.
Tena
I feel exactly the same way. You really have to wonder about the mental gymnastics people have to play to keep liking this clown. They are in deep and total denial. I'm only half joking when I say that all the political ads and F911s in the world are useless on these people - perhaps, only a 12-step program can wean them of this strongman/father-figure that-can-do-no-wrong dependency.
Tena, yes, those darned Spanish names - you'd think they didn't speak Murican. Incidentally, it's been announced that Arizona's newest Democratic Representative, Grijalva, will be nominating Edwards - pretty good exposure for the newbie, and one of the reasons why Shrub's efforts toward recruiting Hispanics isn't terribly effective. Grijalva is probably as difficult to pronounce for Shrub as Gharaib - and as Mark Crispin Miller keeps pointing out, Shrub's struggles with English invariably resolve down to his animus toward whatever concept he's pretending to hold, and does not. Like honor. Character. Thought.
strongman/father-figure that-can-do-no-wrong dependency.
Hmmm, wonder where they could have learned something like that?
Ilya - the only person I've run into this summer who has openly decided to take issue with the Kerry sticker on my car by informing me that she wished she had her Bush sticker on her vehicle is a real idiot. Seriously, a total fool.
Nobody else is being very open if they actually still support the moron, at least among the people I am around up here. I find it surprising, frankly, that there are no bumper stickers, signs or any visible evidence of support. And this is definitely Repug country. However, there are a handful of very openly active Democrats who are campaigning for Democratic candidates in local races. I am encouraged by the kind of determination that I am seeing in this tiny out of the way place with a traditionally strong Repug bent.
I expect a number of Repug county commissioners here to lose their jobs in November, too. And at least one will lose it to a Democrat whom I know is going to win a seat, thank the gods and goddesses.
Chimpy, in his Press the Meat interview Feb 8th, 2004:
Russert: Were you favor of the war in Vietnam?
President Bush: I supported my government. I did . And would have gone had my unit been called up, by the way.
Russert: But you didn't volunteer or enlist to go.
President Bush: No, I didn't. You're right. I served. I flew fighters and enjoyed it, and provided a service to our country. In those days we had what was called "air defense command," and it was a part of the air defense command system.
The thing about the Vietnam War that troubles me as I look back was it was a political war. We had politicians making military decisions, and it is lessons that any president must learn, and that is to the set the goal and the objective and allow the military to come up with the plans to achieve that objective. And those are essential lessons to be learned from the Vietnam War.
I bet Chimpy thinks irony describes the taste of DC tap water...
PLEASE VOTE FOR BUSH
A TRUE MAGICIAN
WHO WENT AWOL
WITHOUT CONTRITION
RE-ENLIST BUSH!
+++
Is desertion really a felony? If George W. Bush had at one time been considered a deserter, would he automatically be a felon or is there a formal procedure to this designation? Finally, if he had been charged with desertion and was formally labeled a felon, would this designation automatically make him unfit to be president? I don't have my constitution handy but could someone clear this up for me? Maybe the TANG records that were "destroyed" would shed light on this. Also, if you were charged with desertion, activated and went to Vietnam, would this wipe the felon thing off the record? Conversely, if your daddy managed to hush the whole thing up, would the charge still stand?
Thanks to anyone who can shed a little sunshine on the issue.
OUR SOLDIERS TRAINED
LIKE WISE FOXES
THEY LAY SO STILL
IN BUSH'S BOXES
FAIR IS FOUL, FOUL IS FAIR
+++
BUSH, DESERTER
SITS ON THE THRONE
CONSTRUCTED OF
DEAD SOLDIERS' BONES
WAR PRESIDENTS ARE REGAL!
+++
portia.vz:
Uniform Code of Military Justice
"885. ART. 85. DESERTION
(a) Any member of the armed forces who--
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States;
is guilty of desertion.
(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct."
Essentially, if he had been tried as a deserter and found guilty, various punishments could have been applied, but the most likely would be a dishonorable discharge. A dishonorable discharge exempts one from all manner of civilian opportunities, but civil law and military law are different things. The consequences are severe - but they don't necessarily crossover. Thus, a military court can certainly incarcerate someone (Ft. Leavenworth anyone?) - and service of a prison sentence has civilian consequences whether military or civil.
The 'felon' part doesn't really matter here. Desertion is not a pretty thing.
ARMLESS, LEGLESS
BLIND, SO HURT
THERE'S NOTHING LEFT
THAT CAN DESERT
BUSH ALWAYS LEAVES 'EM LAUGHING!
+++
The Moonie Times new low:
from Drudge Report:
"Kerry Touts 'Rolls-Royce'..."
http://www.washtimes.com/nationa...11416-
8086r.htm
"That's an insult to the auto worker, it's an insult to the American worker, it's an insult to mainstream America," said Sam Burwell from Corunna, Mich., a third-generation auto worker for General Motors. "It also shows who he's really in touch with: his European, elitist French friends and not Americans like me. A Rolls-Royce, for cryin' out loud."
Google search for Sam Burwell comes up with this photoalbum from MEET THE CANDIDATE NIGHT at The Shiawassee Dog & Gun Club
http://www.shianet.org/albums/04...s/04candidates/
Sam Burwell, a Republican, is running for Commissioner's office in Shiawassee county (MI) in 2004
Insult for mainstream America indeed.
Tell Moonie Times what you think:
http://www.washtimes.com/contact-us/
Don't expect much. Their "corrections" page is blank.
All I know is after Chimpy loses the election the Kerry Justice Dept. better go after him for desertion. The spineless Demowhimps better not say "Aw, that's OK. Let's move on and work together with the Repiglicans in a bipartisan manner."
Let's all be ready to press the Demowhimps to pursue this, like the Repiglicans did with Clinton-- after his presidency they kept after him and had him disbarred in Arkansas. Don't let the jellyfish whimp out.
Robert Byrd has published a new book:
"Losing America: Confronting a Reckless and Arrogant Presidency."
buy it and make the wingers cry
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obido...1353705-
4404852
Salon interview (use the free "day pass")
http://www.salon.com/news/featur...4/senator_byrd/
Thanks for clearing that up. So, even if it wouldn't necessarily disqualify him from office, why would the military choose to follow such a man, a man who used his connections to get himself out of harm's way? Any why would thy choose to dishonorably obstruct the decisions of a much more capable man who had made some awkward decisions in college with respect to ROTC but later left his fate to the arbitrary fate of a draft lottery? One had no intention of ever going; the other eventually accepted his responsibility but was never called. I only ask because my winger brother says he would never serve a democrat. Has the psyops campaign even influenced the army that perfected it?
(Warning: Shameless self hyping to follow)
Check out my song "Get Out of Iraq"
www.simplefears.com
why would the military choose to follow such a man, a man who used his connections to get himself out of harm's way?
1) Because they either don't know that or believe it, and, if they do;
2) they are stupid?
Don't expect much. Their "corrections" page is blank.
of course, when your publisher's the freakin messiah.
bz, wow, that's some interview (with Byrd)
I didn't blame Bush for the numbers, btw. What is evident is that the numbers exploded after 9/11 and then again after Iraq. It's obvious people wanted to avoid combat, which isn't directly Bush's fault.
What is important about the Drum numbers is that it comes from a unit with deployments in both Iraq and Afghanistan and it seems a lot of people aren't up to see both countries with a rifle in their hands.
What I would like to see is a breakdown by MOS and unit, so you can determine what the reasons might be for desertion, is it combat stress, fear or family issues. All three can play a serious role in breakdowns of unit morale and cause for desertion.
Combine that with shrinking reenlistment rates for units about to deploy and we're moving back to 1970. We don't have the drugs, racial violence or command breakdowns, but the low morale seems to be an issue.
There's a bigger story here than it seems at first glance.
portia.vz, it's not really all that clear that 'the military' would choose Shrub over Kerry - but as for the military subculture, there is certainly a whole lot of deliberately installed groupthink, largely coming from the lower levels of the officer corps. A lot of -that- started as the Vietnam generation of the regular forces retired, the slots being filled by people who had never served in battle and were unlikely ever to do so.
The really weird anti-Clintonism was something that was, I think, the result of a real failure of education by the military and by the schools themselves. Within the services there had been enormous pressure from the education element to rebuild the military's 'sense of pride' and mission, mostly as a result of the really horrible effects of VietNam - and part of that was a probably inadvertent denigration of the realities of civilian control. Thus, within the services, after VietNam, say during the late 70's-80s, the military in many ways grew to resist civilian control as somehow wrong or unnatural or even un-American. Thus, the wonderful backlash - when civilian control, civilian political control was brought to the fore again, essentially during Clinton, the fury among the rankers and low-level officers was predictable. The Clinton politicians were interfering with the military dammit and they had no right! And they never served either, so there, draftdodging sob's. It didn't really matter whether it was true or not, it's a cultural thing and is a real unanticipated consequence.
The fact that the US military is now discovering just how much real civilian control would be a very, very good thing - it's civilian control that insists on taking care of the troops outside the bare animal requirements of sending off cannon fodder, and it's civilian control that ensures that little things like stop-loss orders do -not- take place - may make a difference within the subculture. The educational systems haven't changed however, not within the services. In the meantime, all of this is likely so much is being done by the wingnutters to decry Kerry's service - since it undercuts their entire argument that their culture is only served by someone from the military - they must try and invalidate the service itself. However.
Yeah, that's what I get for being a military historian, okay, I'm sorry. Compare and contrast; points are given for spelling, grammar and logical consistency.
"why would the military choose to follow such a man, a man who used his connections to get himself out of harm's way?"
1. The military is TRAINED not to think.
2. There ain't no number 2.
At some point in the military ranks, they stop being military and start being political. Its the only way to make rank in peacetime service after a certain point. And political types can be bought and paid for -- look at virtually every colonel/captain on up. They aren't retiring to some gator infested Florida swamp or shacking up in the Arizona desert in a concrete block bunker with a cactus garden anymore. They're working for the defense contractors, selling out their soldiers for a few perks and some cold hard cash.
If ya wanna read what a REAL man in the military thought, read about Smedley Butler.
OT, but I challenge anyone while reading chapter 8 of the 9-11 report to hold in your mind these two facts:
1) Bush called the Aug 6PDB "historical." (Reminder, this brief came as a response to Bush's request for the latest on Bin Laden. CIA happily complied, since they thought the threat was "current and serious.")
2) After hearing that two airliners had flown into NY buildings on 9/11, Bush sat in his chair for seven more minutes.
Seriously, try it.
They want us to move along now, don't do it.
Steve_g: my guess? I think it is the medieval conservatism of Afghanistan (the women are largely off limits) combined with the disillusionment with our government. Remember: "we won't desert you this time.", "we'll give you money for paved roads and new schools", "we'll keep you safe from the warlords. They are sooo five minutes ago". "What's that I hear? Saddam has WMD's? Sorry, we can't stay. Iraq has better targets, not to mention black gold, texas tea"
As for Iraq, they don't want to get their heads either blown or surgically separated from thie bodies.
Makes sense ro me.
Steve_g: my guess? I think it is the medieval conservatism of Afghanistan (the women are largely off limits) combined with the disillusionment with our government. Remember: "we won't desert you this time.", "we'll give you money for paved roads and new schools", "we'll keep you safe from the warlords. They are sooo five minutes ago". "What's that I hear? Saddam has WMD's? Sorry, we can't stay. Iraq has better targets, not to mention black gold, texas tea"
As for Iraq, they don't want to get their heads either blown or surgically separated from thie bodies.
Makes sense ro me.
645 desertion warrants at a highly elite special mountain group unit? I find that hard to believ. I think it's an attempt at hiding death numbers.
You're probably right, Jack. Remember all those Blackhawk crashes in Kentucky during the Reagan Administration? Later, we learned that Kentucky was further south than we had imagined and the people all spoke either Spanish or Mayan.
I have a friend who followed me into the Marines about 2 years after I enlisted. Don't quite remember how it occurred, but he ended up going AWOL, and finally deserted. This was around 1980-81. (my best friend followed me in also, we served 50 yards away from each other for 3 years)
Last winter, sitting with my wife... I get a call - and it's Rick. Apparently after 20+ years, he finally managed to find the courage to contact us.
He spent 6 months in the brig, forfeited all pay & allowances (leave, etc) and got the 'Big Chicken Dinner' - Bad Conduct Discharge, which was after 10 years upgraded to General. That process is not automatic, you must maintain good citizenship, stay out of trouble and all that good shit. And you have to petition in order to start the process. That may have changed since.
It bothers me that it took him that long to call us. He knows that he took a big dump on us, by discrediting the Marines and told us so. That's just a Marine thing. Given the fact we grew up together went farther, was something he couldn't understand I guess. I do, but a part of me is still kinda pissed.
It's a character flaw. If you have a problem with the responsibility related to combat, or training for it, then you should not have signed the paper nor taken the oath.
It's that simple.
stinky feet - not to worry - I will never forget as long as I live (barring some debilitating brain disease) that that son of a bitch, upon being told the U.S. was under attack, sat on his ass for those 7 minutes. Never. Never. Never.
Support our troops, bring them HOME!
As sad as it is to say, and no disrespect to them, many of them don't have a clue as to why they are in Iraq and getting killed. With a president who fails to disavow firmly the belief that Saddam was somehow behind 9/11, folks we're headed for a disasterous and unnecesarily tragic clash of civilizations.
We need to focus on our real enemies, bin laden and his ilk, not needlessly swell the ranks of his support with our folly in Iraq.
"they hate us for our freedom"
Give me a fucking break.
Pray for our troops.
When will Kerry get it?
tired - how do you know for certain Kerry doesn't "get it?" Let's get him elected first, then let's worry about policy, whaddya say?
Support our troops, bring them HOME!
A friend's son served over a year as an MP in Baghdad. He came home a few moths ago less than 48 hours before DoD cancled rotations. He was fine for about two weeks, then the nightmares started. Now, he's a wreck.
My friend told me a few days ago that his son's unit has been told to prepare for redeployment. They're going back to Iraq.
If they need more soldiers in Iraq, 1st Leutenants Barbara abd Jenna Bush should be among them.
Robert Byrd has published a new book:
"Losing America: Confronting a Reckless and Arrogant Presidency."
buy it and make the wingers cry
Wingers cry when you read books. Especially books that criticize 'em.
Georgie the Chief Winger cries when you read books more sophisticated than The Very Hungry Caterpillar or The Pet Goat.
Make 'em cry, I say!
Technical Blandishmentiser:
What an insulting post. Most of us here know who Howard Beale is, and the rest who have brains know that anything they DON'T know is a Google search away.
As it is, you need to read the ENTIRE post. But since you didn't, and since you seem to need a hint, Look at what is said right about Spirit's name.
I'm sure it will prove informative.
If they need more soldiers in Iraq, 1st Leutenants Barbara abd Jenna Bush should be among them
Dear patriotboy,
Hi! We are so not going to Iraq. There are, like, no bars in Iraq, and like no Neiman Marcus, and like not even any soy lattes -- know what we mean? In fact, we are also so not going to teach poor little brats (what do you think, we're Patterson-type losers?) or work with nasty sick little Africans, either. But we just want to say that our Dad is an amazing and very resolute man and no one can ever say anthing any different. And, even though neither of us has ever had a political thought in our lives, we think our Dad would make an amazing dictator, er, deserter, er whatever. And, we agree totally with Katie Couric. Navy Seals rock!
Bushboy was born to a life of ease
Expect Bushboy fight in Vietnam?
Please!
When your Bushdaddy's son
You answer to no one
Including the press that approach on bended knees.
Wingers cry when you read books. Especially books that criticize 'em.
That's the problem with liberals-they READ books. Conservatives manage to have best-sellers that nobody actually reads, they just give them away.
Really, Bush can do anything he wants, because he is the anointed Son, chosen by God to fight the Evil One, and whatever illegal acts or lying he does to accomplish God's will doesn't matter. His critics, however, will always lie even when they are telling the truth. Don't ask me why people feel this way, but millions do.
At the end of July "the system was blinking red" (a George Tenet paraphrase-chapter 8 of the 9/11 report) and in August GWB goes on vacation for a month. Hmmm.
A week after he's back at work, when he's told the 2nd plane has hit the WTC, he sits for 7 minutes doing NOTHING. Hmmm.
Nope. Not gonna forget those facts. Not. Ever.
I really, really hope Kerry uses some of those 7 minutes in a campaign ad. It'd cost a fortune, but a five minute block of ad time, and the whole thing is Chimpy's blank face. Priceless.
There are, like, no bars in Iraq
That wasn't true before Gulf War I. I'm not sure about after it.
Iraq, by its own interpretation and with some archeological evidence the birthplace of beer, had an alcoholic beverage industry and bars. There were constant jokes among the alcoholic marines about restoring things and getting properly drunk for the first time in months during the intial conquest. There is also drinking in Bahrain and we believe Qatar.
buckfush
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