I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
iTerror.
Someone explain to Georgie about the boy who cried wolf
Link?
Okay, link up now.
(Shameless blogwhoring alert!)
The British have been dealing with the IRA bombings for long enough to know better than to foster meaningless chatter about chatter, much less to give away the identity of their moles.
(OT--anyone else find it hilarious that the GOP is charging their biggest fundraisers nearly $5000 "convention fees" to attend in NYC?)
From Blunkett's mouth to God's ear.
I think it's going to get worse between the U.S. and U.K. before this is over.
The US leaked Khan's identity while the UK was conducting an ongoing investigation to people they've wanted to get for a while. With Kahn outed, they had to move in immediately, potentially jeopardizing their case.
If the US govt wants to prioritize political self-defense over actually protecting our citizens, that's one thing. But now we've gone and screwed up the British efforts to protect THEIR people. And the British people were already pretty damn cynical.
I don't suppose we can ask them many more favors, like saying the Iranians tried to buy uranium from Africa.
Interesting, I think the British might have a better understanding of the correct use of intelligence.
Protect people, not Elect people.
I posted on my blog something similiar about a recent CNN story.Slowdown in 'chatter' worries officials
Some could ask, "Did Tom Ridge, by making the data about the buildings in New York and DC available, alert terriorists about homeland security's 'sources and methods'?"
I don't think so, but that might be WHY the old data was used instead of some real fresh stuff.
my brain hurts.
By outing the al quaida double agent, aWol (and his administration) prove yet again that their ticket this November is:
Bush/bin Laden 2004:
Talking with God Since 1990
speaking of cynical Brits
"I think it's going to get worse between the U.S. and U.K. before this is over...."
-dirtgirl
The UK is praying for Kerry to win, just like the rest of the world.
I don't think anyone in the world is making any plans about anything beyond November 2nd.
Bah, if Bush didn't give warning and show info then the losers on this board would be howling for him to do exactly that.
ooops, wrong thread. I guess my brain DOES hurt!
spoko,
shorter CNN: "if there's chatter, be scared! if there's not chatter, be scared!"
We have felt strongly for some time, in part thanks to an essay by renowned military historian Sir Michael Howard in Harper's, that nothing the US was doing made any sense, especially in light of the fact that we have these allies the Brits, who've lived with terror forever and they do none of this colorful parfait bullshit.
Does it make any sense to let everyone know whern we get intel? NO, that does not make any sense, it goes against everything intel handling teaches, and what exactly is it supposed to do? We're "orange" so---what? Is public transport halted? Wouldn't it be simpler to just halt public transport? What is the "warning system" without instructions or steps for various states?
Even the duck-and-cover era treated the public with more respect--there were things to do, like avoid the water and stay away from windows, in fact there was a separate set of instructions for an air and for a water burst.
Well Pie, it worked, no trolling on the poetry thread, first chance on this one, and Thug is back, wailing and gnashing teeth, and expecting us to take seriously all of this noise. We are obviously supposed to just quietly trust that Dear Leader has only our best interests in mund, and not worry our head about whether he is oh, say COMPETENT to run things for another 4 years (shudder).
Thug, you will never convince me that Bush is on my side. I have sons who are draft age. I am not willing to give them to Bush so his friends can make more money. I am silly that way--- I think they have plenty of money, much more to spare than I have sons.
Bah, if Bush didn't give warning and show info then the losers on this board would be howling for him to do exactly that.
Thug
Yes, Thug, I believe you would.
It's unbelievable that we didn't hire/recruit someone from Britain and Israel to originally set up Homeland Security. Are there two better nations at knowing how to deal with committed terrorist attacks?
Instead we got Tom Ridge. Thank God the horse by the same name lost today in the Hambletonian. That really would have been too much.
I need separate instructions for when aWol speaks and Dick "GFY" Cheney speaks.
I know one is an evildoer, and the other is a liar, but I can never tell which is which.
So, I'm not quite sure about this, but aren't the Tories the party on the right? Isn't that interesting how the Tories can make political hay out of this, but the Dems (Kerry) are still trying to out-Republican the Republicans. Just an observation.
Maybe we shouldn't say we would fight a tougher, stronger, more aggressive war on terror and, instead, say that we would fight a smarter war on terror.
If Freud were alive he would classify the USA as suffering trauma induced hysteria arising from seeing the outline of its father figures crotch during the critical flight suit mission accomplished period of its developmental stage.Thank god bush wasnt smoking a cigar.
The chimp gets even the terror propaganda wrong.
We don't do politics in Homeland Security. You can say that again. What to do, what to do. The Pet Goat or get ahold of Condi? Decisions, decisions. Heeeelp, Unka Dick! I've fucked up...again.
What a laughinstock. What a sad, sad clown.
jps-this was remarked upon by we think Kevin Phillips in Harper's, that actually there were several successful pseudoleftist/populist victories made by Republicans, that actually McCain's breakaway that had Rove spewing so much horrible bile was because McCain was paying attention to health care and jobs and so on. But always you will have the Democrats self-destructing by moving right until we clean out the leadership.
A drop in terrorist "chatter"
Remember in Aug. 2001, the system was "blinking red" (which nowadays would equate to "multiple orange alerts") and then the chatter dropped off for no reason?
I might be a little too tin-hat, but it looks like maybe the wolf is walking up to the sheep...
Either that or terrorists take August off too.
Blunkett doesn't have many friends among the civil libertarians of the left: he's been all too willing to ratchet up anti-terrorism laws, that have led to very few actual charges.
But on the question of intelligence, he's speaking with the benefit of past example. IRA terror alerts (during periods when mainland bombing was a threat) were generally very specific in nature, and generally pretty successful.
And quite frankly, the kind of implicit xenophobia induced by the US terror alerts would be poisonous in the UK. There's already battle-lines drawn in areas like Blackburn, where the BNP has preached anti-Muslim bile to the sink estates. And British Muslims have a far stronger political voice than those in the US -- there are a decent number Muslim MPs -- which means that they're harder to demonise en masse.
At least Ridge is not asking us to dig air-raid shelters and hide under things. When I was in grade school we had a few hide-under-your-desk drills, until the principal decided it was silly, useless and just scared us kids. My friend Ivan's parents had the only air-raid shelter around and we kids use to play in it after school. They were widely regarded in the neighborhood as somewhat peculiar people.
All the melodrama of armed guards and barriers and color-coded crap isn't going to make us any safer from a terrorist attack.
Somewhere Osama is laughing and nodding his head over all this idiocy, while putting the finishing touches on a real attack.
.
Bah, if Bush didn't give warning and show info then the losers on this board would be howling for him to do exactly that.
-Thug
No... what we want to see is SOME FUCKING EVIDENCE. If there is some real threat, where's the video of FBI raids on weapons caches all over the US that will be used all these damn terrorist attacks. Considering how easy it is to get weapons in the US, it should be no problem for all these people who hate use to start stockpiling mass quantities of weapons for them to attack us with.
There's only one problem... EVERYBODY IN AMERICA HAS WEAPONS BUT THE FUCKIN' "TERRORISTS!"
Atrios-- why have you yet to post on the Reuteurs and MSNBC reports that purport the administration blew the cover of a Pakistani intelligence operative?
So, I'm not quite sure about this, but aren't the Tories the party on the right?
The Tories were and are still fervent supporters of the Iraqi escapade -- it was Tory support that prevented the backbench rebellion sinking Blair in the Commons vote authorising British participation. Since they can't adopt a principled anti-Iraq-war position (the Lib Dems can) they're forced to attack Blair on his handling of the details.
Another point... the Fred Meyers (kind of a local Walmart) down the street from me had more explosives available for sale right before the 4th of July than any "terrorist" has been found with in North America since 9/11.
From Blunkett's op-ed:
Is that really the job of a senior cabinet minister in charge of counter-terrorism? To feed the media? To increase concern? To have something to say, whatever it is, in order to satisfy the insatiable desire to hear somebody saying something?
Of course not. This is arrant nonsense. I've never been known as a shrinking violet and I'm the first person to say something when I've got something to say. But it is important to be able to distinguish if there is a meaningful contribution that helps to secure us from terrorism. And to understand if there isn't.
And there are very good reasons why we shouldn't reveal certain information to the public. Firstly, we do not want to undermine in any way our sources of information, or share information which could place investigations in jeopardy. Second, we do not want to do or say anything which would prejudice any trial.
So I make no apology for not having appeared last week, over and over again.
Shorter Blunkett: I'm not Tom Ridge.
saw on NBC News tonight that Tim Russert testified to US Atty Fitzgerald today in the Plame case.
I wonder if they gave him the Russert treatment?
Banned--
Fred Meyer's has at least a reputation for treating thier employees well, and I believe they are unionized, too.
Wallmart=Satan
Captured and translated al-Qaeda manuals are effusive in their praise of America's second amendment rights, noting with astonishment the ease with which Americans will arm and equip you and help you acquire practice in the handling, maintainence and firing of semi-automatics and other fun available at any gun show. The adamant availability of firepower, the half-illicit instructions on how to convert a legal semi to an illegal full auto, the ready availability of lessons, materials and bullets: who would've thought they could possibly be used against--well, okay, beside Eric and Dylan and every bank robber in our history, who would've thought...
Frankly, I'm a lot more worried about the home-grown nutjobs than I am about foreign terrorists. The local idiots have better access to explosives and weapons, and they are much harder to deal with - look how long it took to catch the Unibomber. He would NEVER have been caught except for that loony Manifesto he insisted on having published.
.
rei & yui,
thanks for the info. i'll have to check that article out if i can.
Banned--
Fred Meyer's has at least a reputation for treating thier employees well, and I believe they are unionized, too.
Wallmart=Satan
-IsraelHand
Agree. Fred Meyers is a little better than Walmart. Fred Meyers has been bought out by Kroger, and Kroger is a union shop.
I was more refering to Fred Meyers as the same kind of "all in one store" that Walmart is known for now now. Anything from produce to power tools. Fred Meyers has been doing the all in one store thing for almost a century, though.
OT: NBC news reported that Timmy Russert testified before the Plame grand jury
Found this out over at Democratic Underground in the "Latest Breaking News" forum. A poster there is in e-mail contact with Wayne Madsen (as most of you know, he's a journalist who's been stuck to this case like glue), and Madsen says this means that Novakula has testified, too. It also means that the journalists who tried to get their subpoenas quashed lost that attempt in court. Things are moving toward the end, since traditionally in grand juries everyone else is supposed to testify BEFORE journalists are required to talk.
Kate,
I saw it reported on NBC news earlier. If anyone's interested in what they reported that Russert was asked (and wasn't asked) about, a transcript of it is here.
Ha ha ha ha ha!
gotta respect the British for there ability to verbally eviscerate buffoons without the buffoon even realizing it..
OT, my fiance is currently playing "Ultima Online- Fallen Ashes" and she's battling these weird half-man, half-spider creatures. When they die they make a sound just lke the Dean Scream.
jps-it's from a recent one, (the current issue or the one before that) in which a lot of people discuss Democratic strategy in like an eight-way interview.
"Frankly, I'm a lot more worried about the home-grown nutjobs than I am about foreign terrorists. The local idiots have better access to explosives and weapons, and they are much harder to deal with - look how long it took to catch the Unibomber. He would NEVER have been caught except for that loony Manifesto he insisted on having published."
-just me
It's the freepers like Corsi that have me most worried. There will be freepers that start blowing up some stuff if Kerry wins. You can count on it.
Agree. Fred Meyers is a little better than Walmart. Fred Meyers has been bought out by Kroger, and Kroger is a union shop.
Kroger is also in the process of breaking their union in Seattle. If you look at the entrance of any QVC, you'll see huge signs advertising for scabs ("in the event of a labor dispute").
thanx Kate, because i thought he had already appeared, now it makes sense. mon. mornings big news...?
when do americans listen to anybody not american?
which is damned sad.
OT, but it's too good to pass up.
Republicans Unknowingly Pick 19-Time Jail Inmate to Run for Wash. State Auditor
"The Associated Press
Published: Aug 7, 2004
TACOMA, Wash. (AP) - Republican leaders in Washington state were happy to have a contender for state auditor when they accepted Will Baker's last-minute offer to challenge a popular Democrat.
They didn't worry too much about who he was or how he spent his time - until they realized a considerable amount of his time was spent in jail.
Now party leaders are scrambling to remove him from the ballot, days after naming him as the Republican choice to oppose Democratic incumbent Brian Sonntag's bid for a fourth term.
"We didn't check him out," state GOP chairman Chris Vance said. "If I could, I would withdraw the letter putting him on the ballot as the Republican candidate - but it's too late."
On Friday, state election officials denied the party's request to remove Baker from the ballot, saying that would require court action.
Baker, a 41-year-old roadside flower salesman and self-styled political activist, has been arrested at least 19 times since 1992, mostly for refusing to stop speaking at Tacoma City Council and Pierce County Council meetings. He was last released from jail less than two months ago.
Baker declined to be interviewed by the Tacoma News Tribune, but when asked about his candidacy he said, "No one's asked me to withdraw."
When no Republican candidate emerged for the state office by the July 30 deadline, Vance said Baker called GOP leaders and volunteered.
In haste, the party accepted Baker's offer without thoroughly examining his background.
"He told us that he was a conservative activist," Vance said. "We did just a minimal amount of checking."
AP-ES-08-07-04 2048EDT"
OT, my fiance is currently playing "Ultima Online- Fallen Ashes" and she's battling these weird half-man, half-spider creatures. When they die they make a sound just lke the Dean Scream.
-KS
Unfairness of treatment of media on "The Dean Scream" aside, it really is one of the most blood-curdling sounds ever uttered by man.
yah just me, I had a diary over at kos about it this morning---
kinda sucks to be the GOP right now, ay?
http://israelhand.dailykos.com/
Thug is just doing his job. Disruption is his job. Throwing out the bait over and over again until he hooks a few people. Endless arguments designed to go nowhere. Keep finding ways to hook his fish and drag them down the dead end road. Bait and switch.
hopelessly OT
HOLY SERVO
bow before your GODJESUS
Kroger is also in the process of breaking their union in Seattle. If you look at the entrance of any QVC, you'll see huge signs advertising for scabs ("in the event of a labor dispute").
-SWR
Kroger's union needs to find union allies like the store unions found in SoCal. If the Teamsters agree to honor the picket line, there is nothing at the stores for the scabs to sell.
That's why unions work. Help from brothers in other unions. When the longshoremen came out and supported the unionization by Powell's Books employees, negotiations got real serious real quick.
just me--
so he was arrested for speaking too long at city council meetings?
At least he didn't go aWol from the military, or kill someone with his car, or want to have public sex with his wife, or get addicted to Oxycontin, or etc. etc. etc.
All in all, this guy is perfect for the GOP: apparently he doesn't shut up.
shorter blunkett II - I'm not Bush's political prison bitch.
Ooops... make that "...help from brothers and sisters in other..."
It just looked really bad to me in the way I wrote it.
rei & yui
Thank You, I feel normal all of a sudden.
rei & yui--
so GodJesus is supposed to honestly tell you the truth (shows example of boy asking GodJesus if pretty girl likes him; answer: No)
Criminy, we don't need no CIA or spies! We only need to ask GodJesus if al Qaeda will attack the CitiBank building while LaWra buys her coffee there!!!!!
We don't know that he hasn't done any of those things, chica toxica. 
GOD JESUS is too weird.
What's that whole thing with the kid in the checkered shirt all about?
Damn, I want a GOD JESUS now.
.
I have to agree with dirtgirl. Bush has all but destroyed Tony Blair's career. At some point even he is going get fed up with being a door mat for the Chmimps political moves.
I'm just amazed that the majority of US citizens have caught on to the whole war is peace, only Bush can protect you scam.
Sir, GODJESUS loves you.
Frankly, Blunkett's guide dog would be a better at heading up Homeland Security than Tom Ridge.
GodJesus... looks like an Anime rendering of a robotic Jerry Falwell cast as the "hilarious foolish sidekick/pet" that seems to work it's way into every anime series.
A blind bat in a black bag would be better at heading up Homeland Security than Tom Ridge.
Maybe Tom has a GOD JESUS to help him decide when to call a terror alert. Maybe Ashcroft loaned his to Tom. Damn, maybe that's the secret power behind the Bushies, a giant GOD JESUS in the Whitehouse basement telling them all what to do.
You heard it here first.
Why do you imagine that Heimat Sekuritaet does anything, or that Ridge does anything?
They do less in a day then a GODJESUS with low batteries!
GODJESUS
I. Want. One.
Not for me, mind you. For my soul sister Julie, who loves stuff like that. I believe she'd ascend bodily into heaven out of pure joy if I gave her one of those.
Does GodJesus make fun of bad movies?
If so, I want one. Otherwise, not so much.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Let's get a plane and fly over Papua, Yaliwan, and Vanuatu and drop some boxes of GODJESUS. Or maybe attach them to some shrubs in Crawford.
The UK is praying for Kerry to win, just like the rest of the world.
If Bin Laden is rooting for anyone, it's gotta be the Shrub, and that's a scary thought. Seriously.
And Rorschach's got an excellent point about the IRA experience. The fact remains that the USA has not had "Troubles" on the scale of the Northern Irish campaign in a sustained fashion. The Unabomber was one guy. OK City was an event, rather than part of a campaign of bombings by a group.
makes fun of bad movies--GODJESUS does resemble erstwhile cineaste Tom Servo...
The UK is praying for Kerry to win, just like the rest of the world.
This transplanted Briton certainly is.
TheaLogie--in the aforementioned Howard piece, he talks about how the Brits were careful to seize the PR initiative, calling IRA operatives (who were trying to be seen as soldiers in a legitimate military) criminals, which as GODJESUS could tell you is very important, whereas Bush both grants al-Qaeda's pretense to legitimate military stats and still breaks laws by making up fake categories and torture camps.
Also, if you're going to comment, be so good as to mention GODJESUS.
Fascinating--God is more or less black: even with the variety, there is no white God.
GODJESUS is one of the better entries on Engrish, but my favourite has always been This Warning label which I believe should be affixed to shrubya's forehead
Ha! i'd forgotten about this one, which could be the Chimp's new campaign poster
GODJESUS wants you to see this.
And of course, there's so much going on in this one.
One of the reasons the British were able to be specific about IRA threats was that the IRA would sometimes phone in coded warnings beforehand. (The INLA wasn't always so accommodating.) We're not likely to have anything so specific from AQ.
But still, it seems that what we've had in Washinton & NYC was the gov't releasing not enough information, so that everyone go paranoid, but yet more than enough to botch up ongoing investigations!
They've had 3 years to get things right, and it still seems like nobody over there has their act together. Time to get these kids out of the sandbox.
Rei and Yui, I'm too lazy to find it now, but GODJESUS wants you to locate the "spread beaver" shirt on teh engrish site
rei & yui
I call your GodJesus and raise you one Jesus the Monster Truck, complete with Little Mary Mother of God monster truck and Satan's Hell Express.
http://tinyurl.com/6n2x9
Anybody want to guess who these people are voting for?
APOSTATE! BLASPHEMER! HERETIC!
GODJESUS SPEAKS ONLY THROUGH US!
HE'S NOT INTO SPREAD BEAVER (showing the vaginal area), HE'S INTO KAORU/HARRY POTTER CROSSOVER YAOI!!!
Oh, Jesus God! Anyone else check out the "Danger!" label?
"The little part which suffocates when the sharp which gets hurt is swallowed is contained generously."
They couldn't hire an English-speaking comedian to write shit that funny. I've almost stopped laughing now, and I have to wonder, what toy was that stupid thing on? And did they sell many of them here? And how much was the lawsuit for?
KS,
This will get you within two clicks: http://www.engrish.com/adultsonly.php.
Sorry, I don't know how to imbed a link on HaloScan. Just enter adult area and scroll down to third row.
Obviously, you all have nothing to do tonight.
KS,
This will get you within two clicks: http://www.engrish.com/adultsonly.php.
Sorry, I don't know how to imbed a link on HaloScan. Just enter adult area and scroll down to third row.
OTish but for the second time this year, the Iraqi Governing Council closed Al Jazeera's Baghdad operations for a month.
Y'know, considering what we've paid, Iraq should be so damn free that its citizens are in danger of floating away.
Damnit. Too late on the url, and I posted twice. Sorry, not my night.
Rei and Yui,
you only THINK Godjesus only speaks through you.... but I know where to go to talk to GODJESUS
From Reason Magazine:
Shit.
From Reason Magazine:
This Is Kerry On Drugs
Starve a peasant, feed a terrorist
by Mike Krause and Dave Kopel
Candidate Kerry's choice for Homeland Security Advisor, Rand Beers, is a seasoned drug warrior who has already shown his loyalty to the well being of the drug war, no matter how many lives it destroys, or how many narco- terrorists are enriched along the way.
...That American drug-warriors are already in place in the new Homeland Security department should be worrisome enough. After all, American style liberty and the bill of rights are generally viewed as pesky impediments to the drug war mission, and counter-terrorism as secondary to the well being of the bureaucracy.
But that the presidential challenger intends to place at the top of the Homeland Security bureaucracy a key architect and defender of a failed, cruel, destructive war on some of the poorest people on this planet is especially depressing. Those trying to decide who to vote for based on what the next four years of drug policy may bring will find themselves in much the same position as a Colombian subsistence farmer—somewhere between a rock and a hard place.
+++++++++
Let's hope that Beers, Hutchinson and Bonner all go the way of Berger.
I wonder what they'll stuff in their socks?
No worries, Maroon
type this to embed links:
(a href="http://www.engrish.com") Engrish (/a)
make sure you get all the quotation marks and slashes etc in there.
the only difference is you have to change the round brackets to angle brackets
One of the reasons the British were able to be specific about IRA threats was that the IRA would sometimes phone in coded warnings beforehand. (The INLA wasn't always so accommodating.) We're not likely to have anything so specific from AQ.
True, but that was a matter of hours before, and often inaccurate (sometimes deliberately so, in the 1970s). I was thinking more in terms of the people who were alerted around the time of mainland bombing campaigns -- usually, peak shopping time -- because their line of work was likely to bring them into contact.
That is, if someone went to a scrapyard or used car dealer and bought a car or van, paid cash, and didn't seem too bothered about the condition, the owners were forewarned to call the fuzz.
And yes, most Brits I know (especially those in the US) are desparate for a Kerry victory. The expats won't want to hang around -- I'm afraid to say I'd be looking to move back -- but there's no escape from the foreign policy wreck.
In short, Americans are on probation this election season, because they're not really to blame for the installation of Chimpy. (Exceptions: the Supreme Court five.) Elect him this time round, and there's no excusing the populace; it's not as if you don't know what you're voting for this time round.
the only difference is you have to change the round brackets to angle brackets
KS ~
Angle brackets of course being the ones above your period and comma, in case you didn't know!
Also, things post twice in haloscan when you hit refresh or ctrl-R
If you want to refresh to see what's been posted after you, you have to close the comment window and reopen it. then you can refresh all you want, as long as you haven't entered a comment since you opened the window
KS ~
Did you mean 'slanty' brackets?
(feel free to reply, 'Not Nesacelery.')
Freudian slip there, DB?
.
Reason magazine is a thinly veiled Cato institute Rand-following shitfest. It's like a Trot publication calling itself Pathfinder, a Leninist one calling itself Truth or a cross-worshipping one calling itself something about love or peace.
While it is true that Kerry has an absolutely disgusting, unforgivable, dangerous, blow-up-in-our-faces drug policy (see also Iraq, Israel/Palestine, free trade, etc, etc, etc), it is not like Bush, who was so actively arming the rightists drug lords in Colombia that we thought we were headed there before IX/XI, and who since then certainly has not laid off the drug war (since it is linked piecemail to the terror war), is some kind of friend of addicts.
This is a non-criticism; this is getting upset at Kerry for something that will happen worse under Bush. Reason, last we looked, had a list of things leftists were wrong about regarding globalization. No evidence, just blithe declarations of universal error here and there. If you're a lazy and stupid--yet up and coming--young rethug, you screw up the administration of Iraq or you contribute to Reason.
What would GODJESUS do?
Thanks k&y for admitting that Kerry's actions have been 'unforgivable'.
Now, why is he more 'forgivable' than Bush if neither is 'forgivable'?
I'll just wait for the post when you contest ONE fact of the article...
but I'll only be up for a few more hours.
Good luck!
KS,
Thanks for the help.
Engrish
George Bush over-hype an "imminent threat"? Oh come on, that's outrageous.
What would GODJESUS do?
rei & yui | Email | Homepage | 08.07.04 - 11:46 pm | #
GODJESUS would come back in the living room with me, light one up and finish watching Where The Buffalo Roam.
Remind me again, DB. You really don't care who wins, Bush or Kerry, right? You're just waiting for the inevitable downfall of society, and all the innocent death and destruction that'll follow. Is that right?
You're just waiting for the inevitable downfall of society, and all the innocent death and destruction that'll follow. Is that right?
Backslider
Indeed. As he said in the "Herbert" thread, he finds the notion "liberating."
Gave him the benefit of the doubt initially, 'cause I've known people like him. But today it's more than obvious he's another troll.
Thanks k&y for admitting that Kerry's actions have been 'unforgivable'.
Well, Kerry has admitted to atrocities like participating in the Vietnam war, but in this thread we certainly haven't said anything about actions-his proposed policies were what we were talking about, and so were you. And like we said Bush is still worse, so where does that leave you? Lies make GODJESUS cry.
Now, why is he more 'forgivable' than Bush if neither is 'forgivable'?
He's not-where do you get this idea that "unforgivable" means "more or less forgivable"? Love that moral absolutism. Both were bad in the past but Bush was, is and will be worse. QED, viz records of each. We certainly aren't going to turn our back on an election of this importance just because we think we could do better.
Remind me again, DB. You really don't care who wins, Bush or Kerry, right? You're just waiting for the inevitable downfall of society, and all the innocent death and destruction that'll follow. Is that right?
Backslider
So he can say "See, I toldja."
Don't hold yer breath, DB.
Hey Backslider, how'd you know I was watching "Where the Buffalo Roam"?
No shit. Gaaaah!
MisterX,
Whoah. Synchronicity. Far out.
k&y - Okay, let's talk about Kerry's actions in the Senate.
Plan Colombia is probably his most important contribution, other than petering out the Iran Contra investigation into BCCI and so forth.
Sorry you missed the point of the rhetorical question I posed...You are right. He is NOT forgivable. So I don't and I think those who do are full of it. Why would Bush be worse than Kerry? I think they are both war criminals who will do what they can as the individuals they are to continue propping up narcocracy. Don't you? It would seem so.
Philalethes, where did I EVER advocate killing the innocent? Thanks for lying about me.
You're just mad because I've made an issue about the fact that Kerry admitted on TV that he carried such actions out.
Oh well...
rei & yui >> "What would GODJESUS do?"
He'd tell you to Cheney and uprise!
(Hire the person who came up with this t-shirt as a salmon recovery expert.)
OT: Could someone who's smarter than I am (many of you) and someone who knows a lot about British politics (some of you) explain why Britain hasn't come to its senses and given Northern Ireland back to the Irish? Ireland is, after all, an island...
So, wait a minute BD, what's your point? What's the conclusion, the action left least evil? Bush is a bad guy. Kerry is a bad guy. Bad=bad, there is no degree or circumstance or difference, everything's pure white until it gets stained and then it's bad and bad forever. Dey stoled da crans and no draweens get made withdout da blued and rend crans. Qualitative judgements can be made, even when both are awful, and it is still clear Bush is worse. The world is looking to us to get rid of this embarassment: will we disappoint them?
An individual in a asymetric war.
A leader of the free world lying and manipulating us into an absolute nightmare. What would GODJESUS say?
Bad= Bad.
Makes sense to me. Not to you?
So many seemingly caring people here selling their vote and their conscience to the lowest common denominator.
What a waste...
And to think that you could be advocating liberty and truth!
MisterX,
Whoah. Synchronicity. Far out.
Backslider
I take a long draw on the old smoke delivery apparatus in toast to you on this fine synchronatic(?) eve!
Hey, you know our good friend DB, who's so wonderfully radical and uncompromising?
Here he is a thread or two down:
Remind me again where Sandy did hide them?
DB
Here's a recent post from Free Republic:
If he was actually stuffing things into his pants and/or socks he is guilty of far more than "poor judgment".
If there is video of this, he's so done.
4 posted on 07/21/2004 12:52:46 AM PDT by DB (©)
Funny coincidence...yes?
Google "Free Republic," "Kerry," and "DB," and you can find other posts that are...um...suggestive of a connection between their DB and ours.
Just sayin'.
DB= ether/thug/blue sperm
And to think that you could be advocating liberty and truth!
By electing Bush? If we didn't know better, we'd think that was kind of what you're about...
DB= ether/thug/blue sperm
Chauncy Gardner
Actually, DB = *yawn*
You're just mad because I've made an issue about the fact that Kerry admitted on TV that he carried such actions out.
He said that every soldier in Vietnam committed war crimes, that the Vietnam war was itself a war crime in the way it was conceived and conducted. It was a brave and honest statement on he part of a young person who was betrayed by his country and sent into a horrible situation in which the very ideals of patriotism and loyalty became tools of corruption.
You want to turn the Vietnam War into a game of moralistic neener-neener gotcha. You are one sick fuck.
DB,
Bad=Bad.
Both are war criminals.
Who are you voting for?
Google "Free Republic," "Kerry," and "DB," and you can find other posts that are...um...suggestive of a connection between their DB and ours.
Yes, he is a fascinating little specimen, isn't he?
We need to seriously reopen the debate about turning this into a registration-required for commenting site. I've always been against it, for over a year now, when the topic came up, on the grounds that the anarchic energy of the Eschaton comments section shouldn't be mucked about with.
But my mind is changing.
I won't vote for war criminals past or present.
Sorry, it's just a contention I feel I have the right to hold.
Spamming your lies about me is so cool, Philalethes.
You're just mad because I've demonstrated that Kerry confessed to being a War Criminal on Meet The Press, so now you make the absurd claim that I am the only person in history to use the handle DB and mention Sandy Berger's theft of documents.
You're less than pathetic, Philalethes...
You're a blue-state Freak Rethuglican.
What's worse is he looks at this as disqualifying Kerry, yet refuses to hear anything said about Bush. This is like when Zionazis-not Zionists, not supporters of Israel, but violent irrational thugs seeking to disrupt and intimidate-will refuse to hear anything said about Israel because others are as bad or worse. Yet another moral standard that could never pass the test of personal application-could you get away with something everyone else is doing simply because of that? Can you murder someone because other murders are happening?
The Pet Goat or get ahold of Condi? - What's he gonna do when Condi, Rummy, and Colin leave? James Baker can't do everything.
Could someone who's smarter than I am (many of you) and someone who knows a lot about British politics (some of you) explain why Britain hasn't come to its senses and given Northern Ireland back to the Irish?
Er, that sounds like the Ali G exchange.
'So you is Irish?'
'No, I'm British.'
'Ah, you is 'ere on holiday!'
Ulster Protestants are more proudly British than the mainlanders. They're the descendents of Scottish settlers who arrived in the 1600s (on Cromwell's watch) and who subsequently fought with William of Orange. They don't want to be 'given back' because they don't regard themselves as having been 'taken from' in the first place. And they're in the majority in NI.
(I've got good friends from both 'communities'. And to be frank, one of the peripheral setbacks to peace has been the ignorance of many Americans towards the facts on the ground in the province, especially those fourth-generation New Englanders who style themselves as Irish-Americans and think chipping in a few dollars 'for the cause' makes their blood run greener.)
I won't vote for war criminals past or present.
So you won't vote and you'll be drowned in the Kerry landslide. Okay.
I've heard all that's been said about Bush and I agree:
He's not fit to lead.
But I've also not forgotten what came out of Kerry's own mouth and I cannot see how that confession, combined with his "unforgivable" (your term) actions in the Senate, can lead one to believe that he's in any way better than Bush.
Is there any difference? Sure. People are different.
Kerry confessed to war crimes and unleashed a war criminal on the world.
Bush is a war criminal that war criminal Kerry unleashed on the world.
So why is either better?
I take a long draw on the old smoke delivery apparatus in toast to you on this fine synchronatic(?) eve!
MisterX | Email | Homepage | 08.08.04 - 12:17 am | #
Works for me, man. I got my epitath from that flick: "It never got weird enough for me."
r&y says I'll be "drowned" in the Kerry landslide.
I'm more concerned about being drenched in the rivers of blood that Kerry or Bush intend to continue unleashing.
Many here seem to either be unaware of that likelyhood or just want their team to be in charge of the carnage.
Do as thou wilt...
You're less than pathetic, Philalethes...
You're a blue-state Freak Rethuglican.
DB
Col...I broke its brain!
This is a first!
There have been Rethug trolls on Eschaton, and various lefty trolls who have been labelled "Greenshirts" or "Naderites," but I do believe friend DB is the first nihilist troll I've seen.
Perhaps denizens of this board who have been here longer than I can think of other nihilist trolls, but I can't.
Backslider: My favorite HST quote is, of course:
"He Who Makes a Beast of Himself Gives Up the Pain of Being a Man".
Put that on MY tombstone.
I ask it again, cause it hasn't been answered.
Now the whole issue of Kerry and Bush's individual and collective evil, tell me, DB. Did you or did you not say you really didn't care who won because it didn't matter. Furthermore, the reason it doesn't matter is because American society is on the verge of collapse and, in your eyes, that is a very good thing.
Now, dig me. I'm not attacking or judging. I just want an answer, preferably of the "yes or no" variety, but if you feel you must elucidate your position, please indulge yourself.
"He Who Makes a Beast of Himself Gives Up the Pain of Being a Man".
Put that on MY tombstone.
MisterX | Email | Homepage | 08.08.04 - 12:38 am | #
I can dig that. Hell, I tried it a couple times. Can't fool the Beast, though.
Which he stole from Dr. Samuel Johnson, of course...
anonymous in nc,
Your characterization of the loyalist population in NI is, of course, on target. But I thought I'd read that the demographics are shifting fast, and that within 20 years or so we're looking at an Irish-identified, Catholic majority. That'd change things pretty dramatically, no? Not that I think the Republic wants them any more than GB does at this point....
I'm more concerned about being drenched in the rivers of blood that Kerry or Bush intend to continue unleashing.
If you honestly think that, how can you sit there and type? Why can't you move to Belgium if you're so pure?
Sorry I missed your question, Backslider.
I did say that I did not intend to vote, and that this was due to my belief that neither candidate deserves my support.
I also did advocate for the end of the American Empire because I do not believe that reform is possible when the choices are (to use dave's term) Unelected Drunken Fratboy Coward vs. (my term) Elected (we'll see) Pothead Fratboy Killer Who Unleashed Unelected Drunken Fratboy Coward On The World.
Got it?
So, YES.
Nothing against potheads in general, mind you.
anonymous in nc >> "They don't want to be 'given back' because they don't regard themselves as having been 'taken from' in the first place. And they're in the majority in NI."
I've heard that the British actually sent settlers (Welsh was what I heard) there in the distant past.
I just don't understand what Britain gets out of it, besides a few tax dollars and a big headache (although NI's been out of the news for a long time now). Granted, Britain also decided it had to keep the Falkland Islands by force of arms (huh?), so maybe it's a matter of national pride.
But one would think they'd say, "We're tired of keeping a standing army there; you Northern Irish who want to can come to Britain and get 40 acres and a mule; those who don't can keep what you have; on such-and-such-a-date NI officially goes under the jurisdiction of Ireland; we'll keep our forces there for another year in order to maintain order, and then we're outta there."
anonymous in nc >> "...those fourth-generation New Englanders who style themselves as Irish-Americans and think chipping in a few dollars 'for the cause' makes their blood run greener."
Yeah, well, anyone who donates to an organization with the IRA's past just isn't thinking very clearly.
DB,
Fair enough, fair enough. I disagree, mind you, but as a human being and potential child of the light, you're entitled to your opinion. If you truly feel that way, however, I won't be the one to judge you, right or wrong. You're feeling that neither Bush nor Kerry has earned your vote and therefore you will abstain from voting at all is reasonable enough, I suppose, though again, I disagree. Personally, I believe, Kerry aside, getting Bush out of office is a must. It won't solve everything, of course, but at the very least it'll be a bit of breathing room so we can get to work fulfilling the potential of America.
Which is, of course, another area where our paths diverge. Mind you, I do think we're on the eve of destruction, as Barry McGuire said, but I don't think it's reversable. Now, I don't think the last few crops of presidential choices have been anything to crow about, but I honestly believe if we worked together, it's possible to do better as a society.
Now, if you will indulge me, two final questions:
One, are you planning on voting in any of the other elections that might be going on come Nov. 2 (state or U.S. congress, mayor, commissioner, sherrif, coroner, etc.), or are you abstaining from every thing in protest of the Presidential candidates?
Secondly, if, as you predict, the downfall of not only on the horizon, but a good and necessary thing, are you at all bothered by the innocent people who will more than likely suffer greatly should society undergo a complete and sudden collapse?
Again, I am not trying to engage you in any sort of argument, nor am I trying to engage you in debate. You're pretty clear in your stated beliefs, I think you're full of shit as a Christmas goose, and I imagine you think similar of mine. So we're not really gonna get anywhere there, are we? I'm just asking because I'm curious, that's all.
NYMary: you're right about the 'demographic timebomb', although the Unionists have been talking about this for years, and it seems like it's an asymptotic line. Since the 60s, Catholic birth rates have slowed up (though NI Catholics are more Catholic than mainlanders) -- and the day when Protestants become a minority seems to be permanently 20 years away.
(The big issue in NI, for far too long, was actually emigration. It didn't matter how many kids you had, if all of them wanted to get the fuck out of the place as soon as they turned eighteen.)
One thing that perhaps encourages me a little (and with the suspended NI Assembly, you need a bit of optimism) is that the EU has shown the capacity of 'micro-states' and regions to flourish.
What fuelled the flames in NI, especially in the 80s, was unemployment: at 25%, it meant there were a lot of kids with too much time on their hands. That's improved with the aid of EU seed capital. And with an EU in which small states are more common than large ones, and in which regional governments (such as the one in Catalonia) are treated with the respect of states, there's possibly a place for NI to survive as its own loosely-joined entity.
I'm hopeful. A good friend of mine went back to Belfast after college, and she's part of a trend of 20/30-somethings who aren't abandoning NI at the first opportunity. And it's that kind of demographic shift, I think -- the return of people who'd gone to the mainland to get away from sectarianism -- which is more significant in the long run than the breeding patterns of different denominations. These are the community leaders of the future.
Anon in nc,
Point taken. I'm an Irish studies person, and even the most cursory study of the situation shows us that it's way more complicated than it looks in the bars in Queens at 4am on Sunday morning, with drunk guys donating all their leftover cash to The Cause. But I confess I hadn't much considered the effect of the EU in all this. I just don't think economically, I guess.
but I don't think it's reversable
That should read "I don't think it's irreversable."
Sorry.
You meant 'irreversable', correct, Backslider?
1) I'm looking into local elections to see if any Libertarians are running on an 'End of Gov't' ticket, but I don't think I'll find any.
2) Yes, I am bothered by the fact that the end of Empire may result in innocent deaths. But I don't see how supporting a candidate who not only took innocent lives but enabled a Christmas Goose like Bush to do so on a larger scale when he should have known better is going to bring an end to the unnecessary deaths of the innocent.
Do you?
You know, I've read through the above 100+ comments. I think I will now come out publically for selective crib strangling.
It is kind of interesting that Chinese in Indonesia, Orange in Ireland, Hindus in Kashmir, Jews in Israel/Palestine, whiter-skinned peoples in South America, Afrikaners in South Africa and now our Londoners in Iraq are or were all sort of with the same problem of being an unpopular minority answering the possibility of threat with a concrete oppression.
That is interesting.
Again, no hard feelings, right? Don't accuse me of loving shit and I won't suggest you'd consider eating dogs. I think that's fair.
Okay?
r&y,
Now that I'm thinking economically, don't the minorities you mention, in general, tend to control certain aspects of trade and/or economic life in these territories? I only really know about the first 2 you mention, and a little about Kashmir, and I would never presume to address the chicken-or-egg nature of the question, but I wonder...
DB,
Like I said, I don't want to get into any form of debate with you. No point. You got your ideas and I got mine, and all we'll do is go round and round, learning nothing. Not worth the potential of wasting the groovy buzz I've got going now.
But since you were so kind as to answer my humble queries, I shall endevor to answer this one as best as I can.
Yes, I am bothered by the fact that the end of Empire may result in innocent deaths. But I don't see how supporting a candidate who not only took innocent lives but enabled a Christmas Goose like Bush to do so on a larger scale when he should have known better is going to bring an end to the unnecessary deaths of the innocent.
I have to admit, not only Kerry's vote in regards to Iraq set unwell with me, the U.S.'s own powerfully stronge jones towards imperialism bothers as well. Should he have known better? Probably. We knew better, and we're just common yay-hoos. Kerry's a United States Senator. I definately know I wouldn't want that decision and its horrible results sitting on my chest when I go to sleep at night.
But you ask if voting for him isn't just as bad as letting society slip into chaos, as you say it deserves for true cleansing. Hmmm. I'm sorry, but I cannot believe doing nothing while the world goes to hell is the path of the righteous man.
You say a Kerry presidency will be as bad as a Bush presidency, in that the blood will flow and the hearts will stop unstaunched and unsaved. Perhaps, but perhaps not. I honestly believe that a Kerry presidency is at the very least breathing room for progressive ideals to continue their bloom, and at the very most a solid step in the right direction.
Of course, as you say, it could be Armegeddon in any event. Again, maybe, but consider this: if you see a child drowning, you try to help and the child drowns anyway, is that worse than just standing on the shore watching?
Who knows? Maybe we're both damned.
le cynique: I don't want to sound rude, but the situation on the ground has no resemblence to what you're describing. The violence is more like that of inner-city gangs in the US (especially these days) than, say, that around the settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. There's a big difference between a family in East Belfast and one that upped sticks from Brooklyn to live in Israel. The notion of some kind of 'repatriation' is just silly.
And it's not a matter of UK national pride, that's for sure. NI is semi-detached from the mainland. It has different political parties, many different laws, a separate education system. Most mainlanders treat it as an ongoing irritation.
As I said, up above, the role of the EU means that it's become much less important which country ostensibly 'owns' NI; what matters for most people who live there is being able to have local control of the province's affairs in a way that properly represents both communities, and allows for economic revival. Because the EU rewards 'subsidiarity', we've seen many former separatist groups turn into less radical regional parties.
(Compare it a little to Canada: the days of 'Quebec Libre' are pretty much confined to the past, now that the PQ is a major player in federal politics.)
If we're looking for silver linings, what can be said is that without NI, the British would be having a much tougher time around Basra these days.
Your attempt to restore civility to this forum is refreshing, Backslider.
Did I say, do nothing? I don't remember doing so, but I do recall suggesting that voting isn't as important as replacing the Hell on earth, which results from pro-Empire partisanship, with something more akin to human values and a willingness to trust no head on the hydra.
If you see a man drowning a child and another man on the shore tells you he can do a better job of it, do you encourage him to try?
That's what a vote for Kerry means to me.
NYMary: it's not purely economic. It's more about the population map of the EU.
While there are a few big states -- the UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy -- most are smallish countries, and most of the larger countries actually have very highly-devolved regional government. (The UK and France are the big exceptions, though even the UK has devolved power to Scotland and Wales.)
So the EU tends to think in terms of smaller population blocs, usually around 10 million: Belgium has roughly the population of Bavaria; the Czech Republic has roughly the population of Catalonia.
And that means that Northern Ireland, with a population of just under 2 million, can actually be treated as an entity in its own right, on similar terms as, say, Estonia or Slovenia. At least, that's the theory.
Anyway, here's a UK govt. site devoted to the NI-EU relationship, which gives a sense of how relationships are being forged between the EU and regions, especially when development funding is concerned.
If there's one thing that unites Unionists and Nationalists, it's their desire to get pork from Brussels -- in part, because it isn't subject to the kind of sectarian suspicion attached to money from London.
Again, fair enough. I apologize for thinking you said "do nothing", but you gotta admit, such an extreme stance does make one draw conclusions. I don't see where there's an option; you either do something or do nothing, and frankly, I haven't seen you offer any viable resolutions that might encourage me to change my mind. I'm not saying you have to come up with a solution, mind you. The problem is way too big for just one man or one woman, and it's the height of arrogance if a fool says s/he knows the answers or is even fully cognizant of what the question truly is. Most people think they know at least that, but I doubt they truly don't. I can honestly say I don't; I just have suggestions.
And I can see what you're implying by making a change to my drowning child scenario. Still, I don't think I agree it's an apt change. I don't really think Kerry's goal is the active destruction of the society that's made him so successful (by its standards, anyway). Bush either, for that matter, but that's really beside the point. Granted, I don't think Bush cares much about the rest of us. Kerry perhaps does and perhaps he doesn't. Based on his record while in office, I'm willing to play the game once again and give him a shot. You're not. Fair enough. Still a free country.
And I'm civil to everyone. I have incredibly good manners, except for the stuff about getting up when a lady enters the room or walking between her and the street when strolling down the sidewalk and whatnot. That always smacked of rather paternalistic sexism, and I find it much more fulfilling to treat everyone more or less with the same amount of respect. Ah, but I digress.
I'm polite to everyone, even when I think their opinions are completely full of shit. But it's just not worth the effort to get ugly or, in this case, at all worked up over it, ya know? No point.
DB:
As I said, I debated you last night, and gave perfectly cogent reasons for disagreeing with you. If you don't accept 'em, that's your business.
You know how you can settle this REALLY easily? Last night, after I challenged you to present an alternative to Bush/Kerry, and asked you to explain YOUR form of activism, and to invite people to join you in it if they were interested, you said that you had a number of websites devoted to activism, but coyly declined to name them.
So why don't you name one of 'em? That way, people who are interested in your point of view can read more about it and possibly even get involved, and you can stop acting like a troll around here. Separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were.
There's nothing to worry about. Lots of other people post links to their sites here...Backslider, for instance. And that's despite this site being infested with RNC trolls. No one's been firebombed or hit with a DOS attack yet, as far as I know. And we're not as vengeful and nutty as the Repubs anyhow.
If you've got something good going on, share it with us. And I solemnly swear that if you do so, I'll apologize for suggesting that you're a FReeper.
Fair enough?
Philalethes
Thanks, anon in nc. Really interesting stuff. I wonder, though, why the devolution of power in Scotland and Wales--in my understanding, a pretty radical thing, voting out what many considered a colonial power--why was that devolution not offered to NI as well? I may have missed this, if it was offered, but it's curious.
Not worth the potential of wasting the groovy buzz I've got going now.
Yeah, you do sound exceptionally mellow tonight, 'slider.
Yeah, you do sound exceptionally mellow tonight, 'slider.
G. Goober Goober, EFB, HSG | Email | Homepage | 08.08.04 - 1:52 am | #
My brother, the world is beautiful, the weather is pleasent, I've read some really cool stuff on a number of mind-stretching subjects, I've got a full belly, I just got through watching a fine film and I'm currently listening to a selection of New Orleans R&B, which I dearly love.
Plus, I'm been smoking kind bud and sipping Jack Daniels for about eight hours now. I'm so high I need a step-ladder to scratch my ass. I passed God about two hours ago.
Backslider & Philalethes, I hope that we can again be civil and agreeable about our disagreements.
I decline your invitation, Philalethes, only because I have already had the FBI cite some of my online writings as dangerous. This was back in the Y2K heyday, but I think I'll retain my anonymity here for at least awhile longer. But your request is appreciated if it is meant in the spirit of seeking to understand one another better.
Got an email addy you'd care to share?
I decline your invitation, Philalethes, only because I have already had the FBI cite some of my online writings as dangerous.
Hey, civility's fine by me. But...uh...let me get this straight. You've got sites up with your writing on them--probably even stuff that I've read, according to you--but the FBI expressed concern about them four years ago, and therefore you can't post links here, because that would tip the FBI off that you have websites up with controversial writings on them.
Um, if the writing on these sites is so dangerous...wouldn't the FBI just go to them directly based on their content? Instead of having to monitor comments on a blog? Especially since you're supposedly a "person of interest" already, meaning that they'd presumably ALREADY be monitoring them, and already know your identity?
Help me out here, DB...I'm a little confused.
anonymous in nc >> "le cynique: I don't want to sound rude, but the situation on the ground has no resemblence to what you're describing."
No problem. I have quite a few, call them "pent-up" questions, and I realize my own opinions about them may or may not stand up to reality and reasoned argument.
Your comparison of NI/Britain to Québec/Canada is interesting, as is your assertion that, as the economy improves, the "street gang" style violence decreases.
But, despite attempts at change, doesn't NI still have a constitution that overtly sanctions discrimination by so-called Protestants against so-called Catholics? How does this play out in day-to-day life?
I suspect that the FBI is paying attention, so if they feel the need to investigate me more intensely and cite more of my activities, I'm sure they will.
I don't recall saying that the websites were particularly dangerous, just that I had been cited in an FBI report as the author potentially dangerous materials. It was stupid and didn't make sense, but there you go.
I don't need digital blue- or redshirts to attempt to hinder my current efforts. I'm not accusing you, per se, but acknowledging that my comments have more than irked you and others, it's not a risk I'm willing to make at this particular place in the space-time continuum which Backslider is transcending through the use of entehogens.
Catch you on the flip side.
why was that devolution not offered to NI as well? I may have missed this, if it was offered, but it's curious.
It was. It's just currently suspended, and has been since 2002. The basic structure for devolution was put in place, after the Good Friday agreement. The first elections were in 1998. As the party structure is very different in NI to either Scotland or Wales -- the main parties don't organise or field candidates in NI -- elections to the NI assembly were designed to produce a kind of 'provincial unity government' (the NI Executive), with the chief minister coming from the top party (i.e. the leading Unionist party) and the deputy from the second party (i.e. the leading Nationalist party). All parties would be represented in the executive.
The biggest problem was that if any of the main pro-agreement parties pulled out of the executive, devolved power had to be suspended, direct rule reimposed, and new elections called when the prospect of power-sharing became possible once more.
The 2002 suspension took place because of allegations that Sinn Fein had bugged offices in Stormont. Elections were held in 2003, but because they shifted the balance of power away from the more moderate parties -- the anti-agreement DUP of Ian Paisley became the biggest Unionist party, and Sinn Fein became the biggest Nationalist party -- any attempts at reconvening the assembly and forming an executive fell through.
Right now, there's a kind of holding pattern going on. The suspended assembly (which has never met) may be dissolved in September unless progress is made in negotiations with the DUP; a recent poll said that more people in the province prefer direct rule right now than an attempt to reconvene the assembly, in part because of the risk that new elections would raise sectarian tensions. The decommissioning process is plodding along, but this year's marching season also brought some of the fiercest riots in many years.
So there's a pause for breath, in the hope that the political tectonics shift. And there's also a sense that while direct rule is... well, rule from London, it at least means that the local politicians don't get their grubby hands on the wheels of power.
I suspect that the FBI is paying attention, so if they feel the need to investigate me more intensely and cite more of my activities, I'm sure they will.
Well, it's just a mighty good thing that they have ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of knowing what you're saying here, huh? No way, in fact, of monitoring your Internet useage no matter WHAT your "handle" is.
I'm tired now...so yeah, catch ya later, DB.
But, despite attempts at change, doesn't NI still have a constitution that overtly sanctions discrimination by so-called Protestants against so-called Catholics? How does this play out in day-to-day life?
Messily. In truth, direct rule under Labour is different from direct rule under Thatcher. Schools are still segregated by religion. But much of the traditional engines of segregation are actually gone. That's to say, the decline of the manufacturing industries (where anti-Catholic employment policies were tacitly enforced) brought a decline in discriminatory practices.
But it's worth appreciating that the majority of modern-day paramilitaries in Northern Ireland are basically local gang lords, mobsters, 'enforcers', who rule over large housing projects, and get unemployed and underemployed kids to do their dirty work for them. They're thugs, pure and simple. The 'cause' on both sides is a means to retain power, not an end. Yes, there are small groups on both sides for whom it's still a sectarian fight. But they're not representative of what's truly a criminal problem fuelled by social deprivation.
If I can pipe up on the Irish question, not as an expert but merely as an interested 5th-generation American descendant of an Irish family, and who may be wrong on this altogether: It's my opinion that anon in nc's likening the current phase of the Troubles to street gang activity in US cities seems to be pretty accurate. I'm in sporadic correspondence with a very distant relative in Belfast. Not too long ago there were headlines about violence in that city and I e-mailed her my hopes that she and hers would be safe. And she said it's only in one neighborhood, nowhere near her rounds. (Belfast isn't that big a city, only about 275,000, a little bigger than Louisville, Kentucky.)
Which is very similar to what it's like in Chicago when the street gangs are shooting it out. Terrible for the people in the neighborhood they choose for their battleground, and it's generally the same areas over and over again, but in the rest of town, if you didn't hear about it on the news, you'd never know.
And the 12th of July Orange parades, when the Orange bands put on their sashes and march through a Catholic neighborhood, have always struck me as very like what street gangs would do if they wanted to pick a fight. It's as if the Jets decided to parade through the Sharks' territory, wearing their gear and making their hand signals and shouting their slogans. Of course something's going to happen. Of course the Orange loyalists have a right to be proud of their heritage and march--but there's a difference between celebration and provocation.
And that's my small contribution to a vastly complicated historic situation.
anonymous in nc; I agree with your overall analysis of NI. The one thing to stress though is with all the flaws and mind-numbing complexities and maddening annoyances of the unfolding political process, it is by and large a political process, which is better than a process involving proxy bombs, rubber bullets, and internment. The "peace process" has been in a state of near-collapse since its inception, but then, with each passing month, it's going to be harder and harder to return to say the violence of 15 years ago. At least I hope so.
I'd also factor in as maybe not the key strand but a strand nevertheless the decline in the institutional power of the church(es). Sectarianism was never exactly about religion, but the edges on some of the sharply defined pieties are rounding off somewhat.
Also it sems that the processes you're describing have their close analogues in the Republic. Rural Ireland may already have more in common with other rural European regions than say Dublin, which seems to me like a different city each time I go there (every year or two). Last time it seemed like a bizarre cross between the Ireland of EPCOT, a suburban American office park, and, well, every other slightly dingy city on the planet.
Thersites: I remember the late Vincent Hanna saying in the early 90s that true change in NI politics happens in gradations that are invisible to the naked eye. There are some dramatic shifts -- Bill Clinton's role was vital, and is often forgotten -- but afterwards, it's all incremental, and time plays a huge factor.
Like I said, one of the most encouraging signs is that people who leave for university or to work are coming back to the province rather than taking advantage of their education to get the hell out. Inflow is finally overtaking outflow. And by coming back, they establish a bulwark against the return of all-out violence, and set an example for other teenagers to do the same.
My friends in Belfast seem pretty upbeat about things. It's as if they've had to hold their breath and their tongues for decades when it comes to celebrating their Northern Irishness, as opposed to an increasingly stale sectarian heritage. They're getting the chance. They don't have to feel ashamed any more. They don't have to apologise, or deal with platitudes based on ignorance. And, fuck, there's a lot of deserving local pride which needs to be let out.
What the British government learned -- and we have to go back to John Major for this, who in spite of his reliance upon Unionist votes in the Commons, took some very brave steps -- was that by engaging with the political process, it might be possible to weaken the connections between the gang/mob element of the paramilitaries, and those who actually wanted to do politics.
I still remember the absurd laws which forced Gerry Adams' words to be spoken by actors; and though I'm too young to remember internment, its legacy makes the British wary of detention without charge or non-jury trials for terrorist suspects. It's been a case of learning the hard way.
And yes, the Republic has done very very well out of a combination of EU grant funding and a tax policy that made it the preferred location for the European outposts of the major tech hardware players during the 90s. (Dell, Gateway and Apple operate out of Dublin, in those business parks you mention.) And it's easy to forget the role of EU funding for agriculture: outside of the cities, NI is much more rural than most of Britain.
First comment on Eschaton from a lurker Brit: hats off to anonymous in nc for an excellent series of posts on NI. I knew - more or less -about most of the points you made but you have pulled them all together into a lucid, intelligent and enlightening whole.
I too have a friend in Belfast - an exiled lefty Brit - who echoes your comments about how much things have changed. And yes, the mob element has been isolated from the majority.
I have visited her in Belfast a couple of times - and I have to say that, outside the commercial city centre, I still find the visual reminders of the divided community very daunting (e.g Union Jacks/Tricolours marking the different communities). Really hope you are right in your thesis of small nations/provinces/whatever flourishing within the EU.
Test. Jesus the monster truck. That's the end of my test.
What the British government learned -- and we have to go back to John Major for this, who in spite of his reliance upon Unionist votes in the Commons, took some very brave steps -- was that by engaging with the political process, it might be possible to weaken the connections between the gang/mob element of the paramilitaries, and those who actually wanted to do politics.
Absolutely. It's really kind of sad, and amazing, that the lessons here were apparently not learned when it comes to other parts of the world. A political, diplomatic, economic, and (shudder!) law enforcement aproach can have a pretty decent effect on terrorism -- that is, if we are going to judge "success" by the measure of "are fewer people being killed now than before, when we were trying other things?"
Thanks KS for showing me how to do the little blue clickable links up-thread.
I can't believe AWOL would be SOOO stupid as to out a deep cover al qaeda operative. (No wait a minute, yes I can).
The Pakistanis got this guy a couple months ago - he moved email info through the al qaeda terror network -- they were able to turn him -- and supposedly it was his misinformation work that helped a lay the traps that led to a lot of the recent arrests. But BushBoy, trying to show how smart and successful he is gives details on the guy to the American press.
Mr. Kahn, I'm sorry the Unites States has such a dickhead for a president. And I'm sorry for the world --- a scarce, valuable muslim mole is gone. I don't think we'll get another like this one. And I'm pretty sure other countries will think twice before sharing their valuable intellengence assets with the US.
DB's characterisation of John Kerry is, I think, a good example of the difference between the two candidates for President this time round. John Kerry served in the Navy in Vietnam, completing his tour without ever seeing the enemy. He volunteered for another tour in the Swift Boats and met the enemy. He acquitted himself honourably but was disillusioned by what he learnt. Afterwards he returned to the US and, fired up, told people what he had done and what he had seen. Later he realised that what he said was intemperate and denigrated people who had been through the same sorts of experiences he had.
He learned from his mistakes and changed. I can't see any evidence that G. W. Bush has ever learned or changed. He is still the immature spoiled child he was when he was drinking and drugging his way through life as a young man.
Robert S., you are aware of Kerry's confession to his OWN atrocities and war crimes, aren't you?
Meet the Press, April 18, 1971:
MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?
KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
+++++++++++
So Robert, do you believe Kerry or not?
Do you trust that he told the truth or not?
Wer his atrocities in Viet Nam real or not?
I believe him and take him at his word.
Why can't the people who support him?
You claim that Kerry "changed," Robert.
Yet he did not have enough sense to not trust Bush.
What kind of intellect does that show?
Kerry sent more young people to do exactly what he confessed to doing, and he wants to send even more!
He's promised to double Special Forces.
You think they don't commit war crimes?
Face facts: Kerry and Bush are both war criminals.
If you want to give Kerry credit for acknowledging his war crimes, then how can you praise his actions?
If you don't want to vote for War Criminal Bush, why would you vote for War Criminal Kerry who voted to unleash Bush on the world?
Um, do you sing any other tunes? Or are you just a one-note johnny? This thread was about Blunkett and Ridge and the terror alerts. Did you bother addressing the topic at all? Why not just put "OT" at the top of all your posts, and that way people who want to discuss the topic at hand can ignore you.
Same ol' same ol' on every single thread. Boring.
anonymous in nc (and others), thanks for the unexpected and very enlightening discussion on NI. This Yank learned much--now if we could get an American to just return the favor for our Civil War. It would help the Europeans understand much about our contemporary political crisis...
Back on topic:
The whole issue of politicization of the terror threat by the Bush campaign is a potentially potent weapon but very delicate problem for the Dems. But it's a problem that they can solve if they are careful.
They can not appear to poo-poo the warnings, because then one bomb, or even a spectacular bust of a terrorist conspiracy, will discredit them. We all need to be careful in our activist meanderings to not make the same mistake.
The approach instead needs to be to talk about the continued risk, which is a convenient echo of Bush's "safer but not safe" language--a very exploitable tactical blunder on the GOP's part.
Based on this state of affairs, a state that Bush admits and even campaigns on, Kerry can deploy a critique of why we are not safer. Part of this critique would be to show the evidence (compiled largely in blogs, by the way) about just how the GOP has indeed shamefully politicized the struggle--including both the Plame and Khan outings, with the latter being far more devastating to national security.
The effective theme, then, should be that the GOP is concerned only about power and about the satisfying the demands of their base (cue the Michael Moore film clip to remind people who that is), and will willfully and with quite deliberate forethought put Americans at risk in order to do it. How shameful they are!
In short, it reenforces the Mis-Leader brand name.
Why, yes, Katie, I did address the topic.
Obviously you don't pay attention very well so let me direct you to my original comment.
As I stated there, Kerry wants Rand Beers to have Ridge's job and dispense the terror alerts.
You know who Rand Beers is, don't you, Katie? He lied under oath to Congress about FARC training in Afghanistan. You'd know that if you'd read the link in my original comment.
Kerry wants terrorist Rand Beers to head Homeland Security. I stated that I hoped Beers (and Hutchinson and Bonner) would go the way of former Kerry advisor Sandy Berger.
You do know who Sandy Berger is, don't you, Katie?
Pay attention next time and you won't have to resort to inane comments like your last one.
The fact that others wished to address these matters in other threads ought not surprise you.
Unless of course you are nothing more than a Kerry groupie with little understanding of the crimes of he and his cohorts.
Again, I don't support Bush or Kerry.
Fuck War Criminals and their groupies.
One of the good things to come from 9/11 was the fact that the IRA had to do politics, it was VERY obvious that planting bombs would no longer be acceptable to the US funding streams they received.
It's funny how US groups could fund terrorism until they themselves were on the receiving end of some
You know, as much as everyone spins John Kerry's changes as "learning from mistakes", I have to believe that his so called mistakes are really political opportunism. He was in favor of Viet Nam until it turned unpopular, then, he exaggerated his record so that he could be more credible as an opposition leader, and, at the time, expressed terrible guilt over what he did, as was politically correct, then, during the 1980s, when, Democrats were begging to make love to their brothers in the Soviet Union, John Kerry voted against every major weapon system we had. In fact, he voted AGAINST Gulf War I, quite willing to let Saddam wheel into Saudi Arabia after Kuwait, and get all of the Arab oil and ultimately the Bomb. Then, in this War, he voted FOR THE war to make himself look like a real war leader, when the polls were in favor of it. Then, after the war fell out of favor, John Kerry turned against it. And your side, as principled as ever, couldn't even nominate a real leader, like Dean, you went with someone who is a proven poll whore.
Democrats suck.
stork-yeah. And Bush is better because...?
I have to believe that his so called mistakes are really political opportunism
Wow. That's really weird that a politician would be politically opportunistic.
It seems you overlook what people write as well. For instance, my name, which you repeated often enough, isn't Katie.
Uh,hey Stork -- Gulf War I was a set-up. Bush suckered Saddam into invading Kuwait.
Republicans suck.
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