I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
When Democrats say that Kerry volunteered for highly dangerous SwiftBoat duty in Vietnam, they fail to note that this was not remotely as dangerous as bar hopping, patrolling the skies of Texas, or ingesting massive quantities of cocaine at that same time.
Fuck Swiftboat crap. The story of the hour is Moqtada and the Marines in Najaf.
My (now admittedly dim) memory of Vietnam was that the Navy was the one to volunteer for.
It was a land war, and being in the Navy would mean, well, not being on the land.
Admittedly, this was the view of an adolescent (didn't turn 18 until the war was all but over). But it seems to me that being in the Navy and volunteering for the Swift Boats was a sight more hazardous than doing duty on a destroyer or aircraft carrier (if you weren't a pilot, of course), or whatever other option an officer like Kerry might have had.
I know the argument runs: "Well, Kerry brought it up!" But really: is all of this that important?
The Spinsanity kids are cruising on a rep made earlier. Now they just parse to see if they can get 700 words out of it. Usually they do.
Why doesn't anyone ever emphasize the point that Bush put don't on his Guard Application "Don't send my miserable privaliged ass to Viet Name" or a check box to that effect?
Who cares if it was dangerous at the time or not, the man faced danger, did well, and proved himself.
Attention Media Whores: BUSH WAS AWOL FOR 18 MONTHS!!!!!!!!
too incoherent with rage to post correctly....
Thank thee, O Chimp, for your class.
Only you could become a complete ass
By attacking a vet,
While you were beset,
On all sides by that Texas crabgrass.
Melanie: WORD.
Those Spinsanity guys are getting caught up in the 'trying to be objective' trap.
Yes, they did publish a book on the Prez, and yes, there's a ton of stuff the Dems do that is shady.
But reducing every thing that happens in the political arena to a comparison with rhetorical perfection only diminishes how outlandish the tactics of the Admin are.
And they used to be cool.
They make a big deal about how he only served in combat for four months. How much could the job have changed in 4 months? I have my doubts that it was a safe job when he volunteered for it. And this is John Kerry, son of very rich people. When he found out it could be dangerous, betcha' he could have changed his request if he wanted.
Oh and one more thing dammit. THE WAR IN VIET NAN WAS A COLOSSAL MISTAKE!!!! WE NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE!!!!
I'm more impressed that after seeing it first hand, Kerry had the balls to go home and tell everyone what a mess it was.
And president Clinton, don't sell your self short grouping your self with Cheney and Bush and others who didn't go. You didn't go 'cause you were opposed to the war, My dad didn't go to Viet Nam for the same reason you didn't, his lottery number came up (or didn't come up, I can't remember how it worked)
Cheny and Bush weren't opposed to the war, they were just opposed to their own cowardly butts getting sent over.
I believe there is an honorable disctinction there.
sory still too incoherent with rage...
As we all know, it took far more courage to show up for a dental appointment in Alabama than it did to volunteer for duty in a theater of war.
Let me back up what Melanie and T James have said.
The PETER Principle kicked in for Spinsanity once they left their small little blog world.
I, on the other hand, was born having met my Peter Principle Point and its all been incompetence ever since, as I prove each and every day.
Even after the swiftboats got more engaged, it's to Kerry's credit that he didn't try to back out or transfer to work on his father's buddy's Congressional campaign.
I'm sure that the job of President is looking less and less attractive, the more Junior screws up the country and the economy. But Kerry is still campaigning hard and looking to win.
I'm so pleased with myself over that talking point refutation in my last post, so I'll repeat it and reword it.
Kerry volunteered for the swift boats, which became much more dangerous after he volunteered. He did not back out of his commitment.
Kerry is running for president of the United States, which is looking like a much less attractive job now that Bush has screwed up the country and the military situation so badly. Kerry will not back out of this commitment either.
I know the argument runs: "Well, Kerry brought it up!" But really: is all of this that important?
In a word, no. I have swift boat spin fatigue.
The repubs got a whole lotta nuthin' and they're just gonna keep crappin' out this stuff of the next... hey! we're getting closer... how many days 'til we elect a real leader? Less than 90, right? Wa-hoo.
Here in Phoenix, where Bush slept last night, it was all about the $87 billion votes. It never ceases to amaze me what simpletons the president's followers are.
Why isn't anyone on the Dem side running ads how Bush used his father influence to awol during war time? What is wrong with democrats? Why isn't Bush answering questions about where he was during his military duty?
Even if true, Kerry still dodged more bullets fired at him than "Mr. Patriot," George W. Bush, ever did. Fer Christ's sake, Kerry gets a ton more credit than Bush, just getting himself in Vietnam to begin with. Bush clearly ducked that duty.
We don't care. Nothing changes the fact that Bush is a miserable failure.
"Why isn't anyone on the Dem side running ads how Bush used his father influence to awol during war time? What is wrong with democrats? Why isn't Bush answering questions about where he was during his military duty?
lava | Email | Homepage | 08.12.04 - 9:27 am | #"
Could something like that even get on TV? I thought that Television stations weren't allowed to run anything critical of Bush.
Kerry volunteered for a SECOND combat tour.
Kerry had met his committment for serving in a combat zone after his first combat zone tour. While Kerry was due to be rotated back to the states for duty in San Diego, Hawaii, Norfolk, Charleston, etc., Kerry chose to serve a SECOND combat tour.
And Kerry has still has shrapnel in him from combat...
Saturday, April 24, 2004
Kerry has shrapnel in left thigh from Vietnam War injury
By Nedra Pickler / Associated Press
WASHINGTON -- John Kerry has a piece of shrapnel in his left thigh from an injury he suffered in the Vietnam War, his doctor said Friday during a review of 36 pages of the Democratic presidential candidate’s military medical records.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/poli...tics-
132427.htm
It's amazing that the Republicans have us defending Kerry's war record, especially considering the shit bag they are offering.
Attaturk, please stop spamming us. Thanks.
As we all know, it took far more courage to show up for a dental appointment in Alabama than it did to volunteer for duty in a theater of war.
Well, dentists were very dangerous in those days. Lots of iron hooks and stuff--no lasers and cool things like they have now. And having to spit into that little basin when you're face is rubbery from novacaine is just as humiliating as what they did to our POWs in the Hanoi Hilton.
Repukes have a void in their skull
That makes them exceedingly dull.
If you back a war,
Go to the fore.
Don't wait forty years to yell.
Kerry has brought this all on himself and blaming the media is a major league cop out. I, for one, am tired of watching boomers fake and embellish Vietnam war records. They can take that war and SHOVE IT already.
One of Lime Rickey's best. Thank you, Lime Rickey.
just how exactly are these bastards winning the argument of military service? How is it possible a person can snort coke during their entire military service, refuse to show up for physicals and not even have proof of their "honorable service" and still be seen as more honest than a person who actually served there and was awarded medals for doing so?
Is this all really happening? these bastards tore clinton a new one on his military service and we don't even hear a thing about george's because it defames our military members yet they do this to Kerry and it's on every crawl on every network?
What
The
Fuck
Oh, and OT and already covered, but don't take any prescription drugs from Canada. They're TAMPERED WITH BY TERRAISTS!
Safe, not safe...who cares? The guy volunteered to go to Vietnam! It was a freaking war zone! Avoiding service in the Texas Air Guard: Safe. Doing anything, anywhere in Vietnam: UnSafe! What next, are we going to start counting the number of bullets fired at Kerry or the number of bullets he fired back? I'm not in love w/ Kerry, but enough is enough. Repeat after me...he volunteered for a service in a war zone. Enough said.
Spinsanity is run by the worst kind of job-grubbing D.C. political hacks. They will try to build their reputations by stabbing Democrats in the back in order to prove their "objectivity".
Look, I don't think anybody is questioning Kerry's courage for going to fight in Vietnam. In fact, I think that recent events, primarily Kerry surrounding himself with the vets at the convention, indicates that this man is actually proud of his nation's war mongering.
And the fact that he has already vowed to escalate the conflict in Iraq by sending 40,000 more troops, and that he sees no reason to pull out for at least the next 4 years, and finally, his recent statement that he would have invaded Iraq himself by now, regardless of the WMD situation, suggests that Kerry is no friend of peace. We are dealing with a man who is severely misleading the public by trying to grab the anti-war baton.
Go ahead now, bash my troll ass. Just don't tell me Kerry is better than Bush when it comes to Iraq. They're the fucking same. How anybody can claim otherwise is beyond me.
Well, dentists were very dangerous in those days. Lots of iron hooks and stuff--no lasers and cool things like they have now. And having to spit into that little basin when you're face is rubbery from novacaine is just as humiliating as what they did to our POWs in the Hanoi Hilton.
NTodd - 9:32 am
You've obviously forgotten Laurence Olivier's character in "Marathon Man"
Attaturk: another gaggle of great ones! Talk about too scary, that pic of Babs! jeeeez.
August 12, 2004 Washington Post:
"We should have published what turned out to be the truth about WMDs, but that Walter Pincus is just too hard to edit!"
August 12, 2005 Washington Post:
"We should have published the truth about President George Bush's military desertion, but since none of us have have been in the military, those military records of his were just too hard to understand!
Instead we focused on HOW SHORT JOHN KERRY'S SECOND TOUR OF DUTY WAS."
Here's a better idea: bring out the demolition teams for the Washington Post and the New York Times. Fucking IDIOTS!
Well, if you're just talking about the NAVY in Vietnam, then, yes, I'd agree with you that commanding a swift boat was one of the most dangerous duties. But if you're generally speaking about duty assignments in Vietnam, then piloting a swift boat seems a lot LESS dangerous than say, combat infantry or flying combat or support aircraft.
So yeah, I can see where the statement that "commanding a swift boat was one of the most dangerous assignments" could be considered bogus.
"They make a big deal about how he only served in combat for four months. How much could the job have changed in 4 months? I have my doubts that it was a safe job when he volunteered for it. And this is John Kerry, son of very rich people. When he found out it could be dangerous, betcha' he could have changed his request if he wanted."
-Anaxamander
WRONG. Kerry was on his second combat tour and served 16 months in a combat zone. If your ship regularly enters and exits enemy artillery range, that's combat duty you're on. The reporters clearly are clueless about how much high arcing land base artillery can completely fuck up a Navy deep water ship.
Kerry's first 12 month combat tour was far more dangerous than anything Dubya has pretended to do. Kerry had met his combat tour committment and could have served the rest of his tour in San Diego honorably. Kerry volunteereed to stay in theatre for his SECOND COMBAT TOUR.
Jack, you took the words right out of my mouth. WTF? indeed. How can the rethugs be winning this issue.
Bush didn't show up for duty with the TANG and he didn't show up for duty on 9/11 either.
As a vet, I find this innuendo
sickening. It's what the Captain of my ship, the USS Nimitz, always told us, that 'without a complete team effort (cooks, barbers, pilots) we'd be nothing but a hunk of floating metal." No ones service is lessened becuase of the current status of their 'j.o.b.'
Folks, JFK didn't ask for reassignment to a Senate campaign when the going got tough...
Don't let them disparge his service!
It's amazing that the Republicans have us defending Kerry's war record
Actually, it's the oldest trick in the book. A good offense is the best defense. They're defensive about Bush's military service so they've gone on the offense. This is precisely what Rove said they would do.
I agree with the general point that's been made several times in various threads: the Dems need to do lots better about getting one or two bullet point answers to all of these smears and then all going out and saying the same thing. We also need to attack Bush. The Republicans want to make an issue of how and where the candidates spent every minute of their time during the war -- bring it on.
That said, I personally couldn't care about any of this. Viet Nam was an evil, immoral, unwinnable war. We had nothing against the Vietnamese. Kerry's mistake was volunteering, twice, to kill the Vietnamese. I respect him because when he realized that mistake, he had the courage to come home and speak out against that evil war. Unless you lived through that time, it may be difficult to understand just how much courage that required. He then went on to prosecute criminals and to serve with distinction as a Senator. I trust him to do a better job than Bush of leading this country for the next four years. And whether or how the mission of the Swift boats did or didn't change during his time in Viet Nam really isn't going to change my vote.
Cleveland Bob's got it right:
"Fuck Swiftboat crap. The story of the hour is Moqtada and the Marines in Najaf."
but the point is about Vietnam...it was a fucking meatgrinder, every 18 year old male at the time knew it and nobody, but NOBODY volunteered to GO without complete understanding - thanks to a very pro-active media at the time that actually showed real soldiers and real combat footage - of just how bloody violent and deadly it was.
Now its the sons and daughters of the men and women of Vietnam getting their bodies blown apart. Hey, where did all the media reporting of the US KIA and casualties go? Maybe a little push from Michael Powell to STFU if broadcast licensing issues are to be avoided? Remember, Iraq produces 4 American casualties for every 1 American death.
I'm sorry, I'm losing patience with the Kerry. Does he realise that the red states are full of people with very porous, uncritical minds?
Counterpunch.
anon, attaturk isn't "spamming," he's "blogwhoring," which is perfectly reasonable, especially cause he has a good blog.
whore on, attaturk.
I repeat. Fuck this shit.
"Kerry has shrapnel in left thigh from Vietnam War injury
By Nedra Pickler / Associated Press"
So Nedra is one of the EVIL ONES unless she writes an article that makes your (sigh!) war hero look good?
Jack - Just because the whore press is selling it doesn't mean people are buying it.
Anyone with even two brain cells to rub together can figure out that in order for the swift boat liars to be telling the truth, all of the men who served on Kerry's boat and appeared onstage at the convention, as well as Kerry's superiors, would have to be liars. And not only that, but psychic liars as well, who were mysteriously able to foresee that 35 years in the future, Kerry would need to be portrayed as a war hero in order to beat a deserter on the issue of national security. So they all conspired to help him get undeserved medals and ribbons.
Sure, there are people stupid enough to buy into this crap, but if the polls are any indication, Bush already has the stupid vote locked up. This just makes him look even more like a disgraceful pussy to anyone not in the hard-core stupid portion of the citizenry.
You're right Jennifer. People like Tomaig definitely lock up the stupid vote for bush.
This whole "Kerry War Record" thing is distracting the real issue of Iraq. The republicans have succefully put us on the defense when there is nothing to defend.
Let's put them back on the defending the illegal war! This is what Atrios needs to be focusing on.
Beside the ruined Valley of Peace, Sadr's men wait for martyrdom
Kerry's first 12 month combat tour was far more dangerous than anything Dubya has pretended to do.
Kerry served 4 months in Vietnam. Following his third purple heard, a bruised arm caused by a jolt from a mine expolosion, he was able to transfer back to the states.
And yeah folks, keep pretending that swift boat duty (the CTF-115s Kerry operated, not the the smaller PBRs that cruised the tight waterways of the delta) was somehow real dangerous.
Fucking please.
Sure, there are people stupid enough to buy into this crap,
The very fact that the entire administration isn't in jail tells you just how stupid america is.
"but the point is about Vietnam...it was a fucking meatgrinder, every 18 year old male at the time knew it and nobody, but NOBODY volunteered to GO without complete understanding - thanks to a very pro-active media at the time that actually showed real soldiers and real combat footage - of just how bloody violent and deadly it was."
And what if the draft is reinstituted? Iraq will become an even worse meatgrinder than it already is. Does anyone doubt that BushCo will bring back the draft if he's reselected? Then there will be massive protests that even the SCLM won't be able to ignore--but it will be too damned late.
John Kerry was much safer staying on the boat he was on, or transferring back to the US. If he was trying to avoid duty or combat or dangerous conditions, he never would have volunteered for Swift Boat duty of any kind.
To sum up the Swifters:
Kerry didn't want to go to Vietnam, except that he volunteered, but only because he thought it would be a safe assignment so he tried to keep his boat out of harms way, except for when he charged head on into enemy fire or when he dragged a wounded shipmate out of the water or when he killed a man holding a grenade launcher with his bare hands and he was injured twice, but his injuries really weren't that bad, and we would all know because we never came anywhere close to him, and he was critical of the war when he returned home, which is an insult to the country which was also critical of the war.
Did I miss anything?
I'm of the belief that the gloves should come off on the AWOL thing from our 527's.
They've got the information, and Bush will certainly have MORE difficulty explaining what the hell he was doing for 8 months than Kerry does for his 2 tours in Vietnam, the last 4 of which were in the hot zone.
Slightly OT, Atrios you must post about the editorial in the Washington Post today on "Swift Boat Smears" where the Post repeats the Repug smear that Kerry was only in Vietnam for 4 months:
“Mr. Kerry's four-plus months in Vietnam made for an unusually short tour. He used his third Purple Heart to go home early, and his wounds were relatively superficial.”
Why, oh why, in the age of the Internet where all information is about 2 clicks away via Google, do we have such an INCOMPETENT media!
The Washington Post editorial page, even when it defends Kerry, manages to screw it up. They wrote that he served in Vietnam for only four months. WRONG! They bought the Republican lie and missed his first 12-month tour of duty.
I think some letters to the editor demanding a correction are in order.
Did I miss anything?
StuTheSheep
Kerry was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve 1968. Under heavy fire from Cambodians, Kmer Rouge and Vietcong, I might add. LMFAO!
Swift boats aren't dangerous until the chickenhawks say they are.
And they can't have been dangerous at all then, since Kerry is a Democrat, and we all know they're weak on defense.
They became more dangerous later, therefore they were not dangerous at all until later.
Unless you are now a Republican, in which case [waves the flag].
[waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag] [waves the flag]
You liberals just don't get it, do you?
Kerry served 4 months in Vietnam. Following his third purple heard, a bruised arm caused by a jolt from a mine expolosion, he was able to transfer back to the states.
Kerry was on a combat tour as an Ensign on a boat in the gulf when he requested to be transferred to Swift Boat Duty.
He has three purple hearts, silver and bronze stuff as well as shrapnel under his skin.
Were you even shitting yellow yet?
Fucking please indeed, asswipe!
The Post doesn't have to correct. Technically, 16 months is 4+ months.
Dumbasses.
They're the fucking same. How anybody can claim otherwise is beyond me.
Obviously.
40,000 = escalation? Non sequitur. If you aren't a conservative troll, you're an embarrassment.
Take your pick.
I mean the Post's editors, of course.
Let's get something straight. The only safe service to be in during Vietnam was in the Coast Guard.
By the way, some time our freeper friends, when complaining about Kerry's four months of service "in country" should look at the life expectancy of jr. officers during the war.
Kerry's men didn't frag him. That suggests something.
What Hecate said.
It makes my brain water to see how we've sunk to this "What did you do in the Vietnam War, Daddy?" chatter when the fact is, as Hecate has already said: The war was stupid and immoral and needed to be opposed by any means necessary, and Kerry's mistake was volunteering at all.
It is to his credit that upon his return he carried that message to the American public, and it reflects badly on him that he is backtracking from that position now, and reflects even worse on our shallow, distracted, history-averse nature that it's politically necessary for him to do so.
Bush didn't even bother to show up for duty. But that is already well known.
So Nedra is one of the EVIL ONES unless she writes an article that makes your (sigh!) war hero look good?
No.
All clear now?
"But that is already well known."
And conveniently forgotten by the SCLM.
Nothing to see here.
tobor, are you for the war or against it. Hard to tell.
Kerry served 4 months in Vietnam.
And you don't read very well, do you?
Cleveland Bob is right. Iraq is exploding. Not good.
Of course the fact that they are going over Kerry's military service with a fine tooth comb is a good sign. I'm happy for the right to spend their time debating the relative dangers of Kerry's particular assignment.
They want to do a Clinton on him and it just ain't working.
"Let's get something straight. The only safe service to be in during Vietnam was in the Coast Guard.
Nancy Richardson | Email | Homepage | 08.12.04 - 10:00 am | #"
Not true! Bush found a very safe place to serve. Unfortunately it involved deserting.
And the fact that he has already vowed to escalate the conflict in Iraq by sending 40,000 more troops, and that he sees no reason to pull out for at least the next 4 years, and finally, his recent statement that he would have invaded Iraq himself by now, regardless of the WMD situation, suggests that Kerry is no friend of peace. We are dealing with a man who is severely misleading the public by trying to grab the anti-war baton.
Wrong on two important points.
-Kerry has made it VERY clear that the additional 40,000 combat troops were not for assignment to Iraq. The are addition to the total combat troop pool. They would be used for things like getting the training units at the National Training Center out of the rotation of units going to Iraq, as well as being in reserve should something in Korea blow up.
-Kerry DID NOT say that he would have invaded Iraq. He said he voted to authorite use of force IF NECESSARY. Kerry has NEVER said the case has been made that an invasion was necessary. Kerry wanted to have all the tools in the tool box to increase pressure on Saddam. Kerry has specifically throught the campaign said that the invasion would not have happened if he had been President. There's a huge difference between wanting to have the ability to threaten to use force if cooperation with Weapons inspectors isn't forthcoming, and outright invasion.
Why are we even having this discussion?
Fuck. Dubya was FUCKING AWOL for 18 months. This, after avoiding any service in Viet Nam by having had strings pulled for him to get into the Air National Guard.
How the FUCK can we be discussing the ins and outs of Kerry's swift boat service, when this GLARING LIABILITY ON BUSH'S PART IS STILL SITTING OUT THERE WAITING TO BE EXPLOITED?
What the fuck is wrong with the Democrats that they don't know how to go on the offensive?
Disgusting idiots. Democrats, that is.
I would never trust Nedra on ANYTHING positive or negative. I have been at the same events as she, and when I read her reports, it is clear she must have been either in an alternative universe as me, or she just wasn't paying attention.
The trolls still don't know that there was never an up or down vote on the war.
They're trying to hang Kerry on something they made up.
Wow. That's a new mark for stupid.
Kerry's position on the authority vote is the same as Clark's.
Tolle et lege, lightweights.
>Not true! Bush found a very safe place to serve.
I was referring to active duty.
You've obviously forgotten Laurence Olivier's character in "Marathon Man"
Is it safe?
What does it matter what Kerry thought when he signed up?
I applied for a job once, thinking it would be easy (the guy interviewing me handed me a beer at the interview). It turned out to be one of the most demanding jobs I ever had.
If someone later wrote a story about me saying "joshowitz worked at XYZ co., the hardest, most demanding job of his life." why would they be lying?
I'm sure the Nat'l Guardsmen in Iraq didn't sign up thinking they'd be shooting people while walking through a cemetary in the middle of triple-digit heat. That doesn't diminish their suffering or their bravery while they're there.
War hero - or AWOL drunk?
End of story.
I respect Kerry for volunteering so the criticisms of his military record don't sway me one bit. I think most folks understand that too. However, it is clear he was not all he cracked himself up to be. Did he finagle a couple of Purple Hearts to obtain an early release? Maybe, but I don't blame a young man for wanting to get away from a dreadful situation. Was he in Cambodia in the heroic manner he describes on Christmas eve 1968? Definitely not, but he will not be the first veteran to exagerate his accomplishments. In short, nobody under 40 gives a fuck about these issues. Only the boomers are obsessed with this shit.
tobor...
WRONG. Kerry was on his second combat tour and served 16 months in a combat zone. If your ship regularly enters and exits enemy artillery range, that's combat duty you're on. The reporters clearly are clueless about how much high arcing land base artillery can completely fuck up a Navy deep water ship.
Kerry's first 12 month combat tour was far more dangerous than anything Dubya has pretended to do. Kerry had met his combat tour committment and could have served the rest of his tour in San Diego honorably. Kerry volunteereed to stay in theatre for his SECOND COMBAT TOUR.
So Nedra is one of the EVIL ONES unless she writes an article that makes your (sigh!) war hero look good?
tomaig, you see, we have this thing where we are criticial of bad reporters when they engage in bad reporting and bad writing, but we don't hesitate to read well written articles they have written.
Your presence wasn't useful on Hesiod's blog, and it's not useful here, you angry little man. Say something intelligent or shut the hell up.
40,000 = escalation? Non sequitur. If you aren't a conservative troll, you're an embarrassment.
Your right. A decision to boost troop deployment in Iraq by over 30% is not an escalation.
What?
Kerry's first 12 month combat tour was far more dangerous than anything Dubya has pretended to do.
Kerry served 4 months in Vietnam. Following his third purple heard, a bruised arm caused by a jolt from a mine expolosion, he was able to transfer back to the states.
And yeah folks, keep pretending that swift boat duty (the CTF-115s Kerry operated, not the the smaller PBRs that cruised the tight waterways of the delta) was somehow real dangerous.
Which version of WRONG do you want meted out to you?
Kerry served 2 tours in Vietnam, one on a ship in the zone of combat but hardly really dangerous (unless you were an Aircraft Carrier Pilot), and four months on a Swift Boat which was very dangerous for Navy Service.
So Swift Boats were non-dangerouse, that surely will comfort the many who died in such service in Vietnam.
Really, what fuckers you guys are about this, just cretinous fuck-rockets.
Remember, this isn't about Kerry's service, it is about Kerry doing his service, getting his medals, going home and opposing the war.
Remember when the Freepers were selling this shit that Clinton was recruited by the KGB when he went to Moscow?
It is amazing what these assholes are prepared to believe.
Why are we even having this discussion?
I just read a Detroit Free Press about the bounce Kerry got in the polls in Michigan. It said that 82% of people polled have already made up their minds and won't change, and 16% are pretty sure of their choice. Only 2% are still undecided. Kerry is leading 49-42 with Nader and 51-43 without.
So at least here, this swift boat issue is just background noise.
The repubs are desperate and wasting money in their use of negative rhetoric. They have nothing positive to talk about.
So Nedra is one of the EVIL ONES unless she writes an article that makes your (sigh!) war hero look good?
No, tomaig. Notice Nedra didn't say (in her usual fashion) "Kerry has shrapnel in left thigh from Vietnam War injury while the Bush's filling has since fallen out."
What everyone else said -- the gloves have to come off on the AWOL issue. This is fucking ridiculous!
"I would never trust Nedra on ANYTHING positive or negative. I have been at the same events as she, and when I read her reports, it is clear she must have been either in an alternative universe as me, or she just wasn't paying attention."
-Nancy Richardson
I agree. Thayt's why when Nedra writes something that shows Kerry in a positive light, it really means something.
There no way the neo-cons can spin that Kerry still has shrapnel in his left thigh. An inch to the left or right and Kerry's femoral artery is slashed, and Kerry bleeds to death within a couple of minutes.
OT: Scientists figure out way to make Bush's second term better. Or it could be used to keep people from posting comments to blogs
Scientists Aid Bush
Was he in Cambodia in the heroic manner he describes on Christmas eve 1968? Definitely not, but he will not be the first veteran to exagerate his accomplishments.
Definitely not? how the fuck do you know that? The US made incursions into Cambodia all the time, it was illegal and everyone knew it. You really think they were writing that shit down on paper?
Christ, that's the stupidist argument I've ever heard. My father said they flew missions over Cambodia and it was always hush- hush. It was Nixon's very own little private war. It's not a surprise at all that there wouldn't be records of Kerry being across the border.
Enough already about defending Kerry and SwiftBoats....We're on HIS SIDE...We know who is the true hero and person of courage...We do not need to rehash and defend it over and over, for the constant defense may start to give credence to the words of the wingnuts, for average people may start to wonder why we feel the constant need to protest the wingnut argument - they may start to give the wingnut argument a 2nd glance (which I definitely do not want)...WE DO, HOWEVER, need to constantly focus on ALL the Prince of Snide's total dis-service to this country - from Alabama to Iraq!!! - Keep the negative commentary and blood flowing where it rightfully belongs - at the feet of GB and his axis of weasals!!!!
"It's fair to say that they've overemphasized this a bit"
translation:
"Overemphazied" = Got caught in yet another "yeah, that's the ticket" lie.
From today's Telegraph UK -
"the Kerry campaign was left in verbal knots after a new book accused the senator of inventing stories about being sent, illegally, over the border into neutral Cambodia.
The Kerry campaign responded, initially, that Mr Kerry had always said he was "near" Cambodia. Then a campaign aide said Mr Kerry had been in the Mekong Delta "between" Vietnam and next-door Cambodia - a geographical zone not found on maps, which show the Mekong river running from Cambodia to Vietnam."
"A decision to boost troop deployment in Iraq by over 30% is not an escalation.
What?"
-tobor
Except... that that not what Kerry said. Kerry said he wanted to increase to total US combat troops pool by 40,000 troops. Kerry NEVER said he was increasing combat troop strenth in Iraq. Didn't happen.
We are way overstretched, and have no combat forces in reserve in case other problems happen in the world.
Kerry's first 12 month combat tour was far more dangerous than anything Dubya has pretended to do
Are you trying to tell me that selling ounce bags of coke at Yale was not somehow dangerous?
Indeed, I'm through comparing Bush's cowardice and drug frenzied existence to Kerry's self-aggrandizing experinces in Vietnam.
What matters today is Kerry's position on the war in Iraq, and right now there is no difference between his poitions and Dubya's. None. Zilch. And for me, the war is the central issue facing this country.
LOL - now it's come to this, "kerry is just as bad a warmonger as bush, so vote for bush instead!"
because, uh, if you're...s-s-s-sovereign...then...ya got...s-s-s-
sov-er-eign-ty, or...somethin...
listen. it doesn't cost me a goddamn thing to vote; it doesn't cost me any "i'm a radical and above it all" brownie points. and i'm happy, given no reasonable choice [nader? tee hee hee chortle] to vote for kerry if for no other reason than the fact that it will piss off all the right people.
if even one less soldier dies in iraq because we've replaced an incompetent warmonger with a sort of competent one...then i'll feel like it did some good. then, whoever ends up getting elected or selected in november - it's back in the streets. because there's more going on in american politics than what you see on tv.
here's some tissue and a gold star, robot boy - go grab your baton somewhere else.
"Kerry's first 12 month combat tour was far more dangerous than anything Dubya has pretended to do
Are you trying to tell me that selling ounce bags of coke at Yale was not somehow dangerous?
Indeed, I'm through comparing Bush's cowardice and drug frenzied existence to Kerry's self-aggrandizing experinces in Vietnam.
What matters today is Kerry's position on the war in Iraq, and right now there is no difference between his poitions and Dubya's. None. Zilch. And for me, the war is the central issue facing this country."
-tobor
You're wrong on more than half the facts. You need to reacess your position based on Kerry real position, not on whatever bullshit it was you were quoting.
The Spinsanity folks have fallen for the old "evenhandedness" crap: In order to pretend to Republicans and Democrats are equally good/bad, every time they ding a Republican, they have to ding a Democrat in return, even if it's over some made-up bit of bull.
The fact is that Kerry volunteered to go AFTER THE FREAKING TET OFFENSIVE. Tet was the first time the Vietcong really nailed us. And Kerry still went.
let's see Kerry signs up for swift boat duty that gets more dangerous and demanding and he ends up with 3 purple hearts , silver star , bronze star.
Bush signs up for being President and on 911 suddenly the job gets more dangerous and demanding and what did he do? freeze for 7 minutes and then hide out the rest of the day.
Not far from my home town here in Berkeley, CA, a reserve unit (engineers, if my memory is correct) was just called up for 'service' in Iraq. One of the top sergeants in the unit is an amazing 57 years old. Fifty fucking seven years old. This guy is too old to be doing anything but punching a remote control and now he's on his way to Iraq.
Here's the real ironic part. This guy was in the regular army once before: in 1966 - in Vietnam.
The military didn't manage to get him killed the first time so now they've got a second chance.
THAT'S fucked up. He did his time on the cross already.
bannedman,
"in case other problems happen in he world"? As I'm sure you know, they already have.
To those poor people in the Sudan: "Sorry, we were busy."
Gees, in the speech there were was a huge emphasis on the fact that the 40K WERE NOT FOR IRAQ.
Kerry wants to expand international participation, so at least the reservists can came home, and to end the back door draft.
Dick Cheney- Making it up as he goes.
Cheney Slams Kerry 'Sensitive' War Plea
...
He was referring to Kerry's statement last week at a minority journalists' convention, with the Democratic presidential candidate said: "I believe I can fight a more effective, more thoughtful, more strategic, more proactive, more sensitive war on terror that reaches out to other nations and brings them to our side and lives up to American values in history."
Kerry spokesman Phil Singer said the Massachusetts senator was alluding to the need to work with allies rather than pursue "an arrogant foreign policy," as Democrats contend Bush has done.
...
A Bush-Cheney campaign official said it was a coincidence that the issue of a "more sensitive" war came up a day before Cheney made it a centerpiece of a speech. During a forum with Cheney and his wife, Lynne, in Joplin, Mo., a questioner asked Mrs. Cheney "what in the world" Kerry was thinking about when he called for a more sensitive war.
My emphasis. Sure it was. They got nothin'.
The Atlanta Journal Constitution actaully has a pretty good story on O'Neil and SwiftVets.
Author of Kerry book a longtime detractor
Attack: A former swift-boat captain has been disputing the candidate's war record for more than 30 years.
...
Kerry's campaign manager, Mary Beth Cahill, released a statement Wednesday suggesting that O'Neill's book, along with television ads sponsored by the organization he heads, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, is part of an orchestrated attempt by President Bush's supporters to "tear down John Kerry . . . with lies."
The AJC is getting better all the time. They seem to be trying to stay balanced.
Bottom Line:
If you were in Viet Nam during the war, you got shot at.
If you were in Alabama during Viet Nam, you got shot at too......if you were Black.
Yeah, swift boats were dangerous, but so was playing varsity rugby at Yale.
If they had varsity rugby.
Ooohhh!!!! And they have pics from the Cavett Show debate:
Love Kerry's hair!
yeah, FUCK spinsanity, I've read PLETNY of inaccurate shit that they've written, most of it strangely targeted at liberals. Nader syndrome, anyone? Fuck y'all, if you losers can't see the difference between whatever holes you think there are in Kerry's story and the glaring, huge holes in Bush's, you don't deserve to be a journalist, or thought of as one anyways...
The point is that even when the swift boat duty became very dangerous indeed, Kerry stuck with it. He didn't develop "other priorities" or go to work on reelecting a racist legislator.
Definitely not? how the fuck do you know that?
Christ, that's the stupidist argument I've ever heard.
four legs good
In newspaper articles, interviews and at least one Senate speech, Mr Kerry has claimed that he spent Christmas 1968 inside Cambodia, at a time when even the US president was publicly denying that American forces were inside that country.
He has cited the missions as a psychological turning point, when he realised that American leaders were not telling the truth to the world about the war in south-east Asia.
The Kerry campaign responded, initially, that Mr Kerry had always said he was "near" Cambodia. Then a campaign aide said Mr Kerry had been in the Mekong Delta "between" Vietnam and next-door Cambodia - a geographical zone not found on maps, which show the Mekong river running from Cambodia to Vietnam.
Michael Meehan, a Kerry campaign adviser, told ABC Television: "The Mekong Delta consists of the border between Cambodia and Vietnam, so on Christmas Eve in 1968, he was in fact on patrol . . . in the Mekong Delta between Cambodia and Vietnam. He was ambushed, they fired back, he was fired upon from both sides, from the Cambodian side of the border and the Vietnam side during that day in 1968."
Looks pretty obvious he wasn't in Cambodia, don't you think?
No GPS in 'Nam at the time.
Locations were hard to define.
Jungle looks much the same,
Except to the the lame
Assholes who revel in slime.
Once again it's funny how all the minute details about Kerry's life, doings and sayings are dug up and reported, but where are the details on Bush?
I served as a line officer on the USS Princeton (LPH-5) from June 1966 to August 1967. My tour included two trips to Vietnam.
These are the facts: it was well known in 1966-67 (before Kerry's tour in 196
that swift boat duty was extremely hazardous. Anyone who volunteered for that kind of duty was just asking for trouble. Those who say otherwise do not know what they are talking about.
I served as a line officer on the USS Princeton (LPH-5) from June 1966 to August 1967. My tour included two trips to Vietnam.
These are the facts: it was well known in 1966-67 (before Kerry's tour in 196 that swift boat duty was extremely hazardous. Anyone who volunteered for that kind of duty was just asking for trouble. Those who say otherwise do not know what they are talking about.
I served as a line officer on the USS Princeton (LPH-5) from June 1966 to August 1967. My tour included two trips to Vietnam.
These are the facts: it was well known in 1966-67 (before Kerry's tour in 196 that swift boat duty was extremely hazardous. Anyone who volunteered for that kind of duty was just asking for trouble. Those who say otherwise do not know what they are talking about.
Kerry didn't ask to be reassigned. It was DOD policy to reassign anyone who had three wounds. Period. If he was an infantry officer, he would have been reassigned.
Why?
Because the fourth purple heart would usually go on the casket.
Kerry didn't apply for Purple Hearts, it came when he got treated at the base hospital. Was he lucky? Sure. But he very easily could have been maimed or killed.
The whole debate is idiotic. The Swift Boat folks will be exposed and then Bush's non-record will be exposed. It's clear Kerry acted heroically, and Bush did not.
And as far as Cambodia goes, the US lied about their positions all the time. Pilots would claim to bomb Vietnam and then bomb Cambodia.
So Kerry could be easily telling the truth, since at the time, going into Cambodia was illegal and a boat crew had been captured by the Cambodians.
Well, heavens, there's only one meaning for the word "sensitive", and it describes girls and girly-men. We wouldn't want to look like pussies, even if by doing so (and only to a few mouth-breathing cretins) we did a better job of protecting our country and not wasting the lives of our troops.
I don't think Cheney wants to laud Lincoln's "insensitive" war too loudly in those southern red states. Their base still doesn't look too kindly on Sherman's march to the sea - nor the sanctions the region lived under for the next 80 years.
yeah, FUCK spinsanity, I've read PLETNY of inaccurate shit that they've written, most of it strangely targeted at liberals
Too fucking funny. It's just amazing how the entire media worldwide is persecuting liberals. Sigh.
gttim,
Truly a fab 70's 'do.
But worth remembering: this was IN THE MOMENT--Vietnam was still going on, and Kerry had the balls to say it was wrong, from a position of knowledge.
I think it's truly sad that Kerry's military service, as well as his continued hawkishness on Iraq, is necessary. I think he's got lots of good domestic ideas. I understand why they're playing up the war hero thing; I just wish they didn't have to.
Was he in Cambodia in the heroic manner he describes on Christmas eve 1968? Definitely not, but he will not be the first veteran to exagerate his accomplishments.
How can you state this with absolute certainty, Anonymous? Because Uncle Kkkarl told you so?
I loathe medacious shit like you, and that deserting fratboy you support.
Looks pretty obvious he wasn't in Cambodia, don't you think?
Anonymous
Hey, Anon -
what's more important to you in this Presidential election:
a) Where John Kerry spent Christmas, 1968
b) What Bush plans to do in his second term
I answer (b) - let's talk about that for a while, shall we?
I served as a line officer on the USS Princeton (LPH-5) from June 1966 to August 1967. My tour included two trips to Vietnam.
These are the facts: it was well known in 1966-67 (before Kerry's tour in 196 that swift boat duty was not dangerous. Anyone who volunteered for that kind of duty was not asking for trouble. Those who say otherwise do not know what they are talking about.
In newspaper articles, interviews and at least one Senate speech, Mr Kerry has claimed that he spent Christmas 1968 inside Cambodia, at a time when even the US president was publicly denying that American forces were inside that country.
Anybody else remember the stories about how records of bombings in Cambodia were changed, on orders, to reflect bombings in places the U.S. was supposed to be bombing?
Anyone else old enough to remember learning about the "Plain of Jars"? A place in Cambodia we bombed back to the Stone Age, at a time when Nixon was publicly denying we were dropping anything in Cambodia?
Hell, my brother in law was Green Beret. He spent his tour in Thailand and Laos when we "weren't in" those countries, either.
Don't the schools teach American history anymore?
Once again it's funny how all the minute details about Kerry's life, doings and sayings are dug up and reported, but where are the details on Bush?
Anonymous, tomaig, and Karen, why aren't you commenting in the thread about the poor guy who's about to be released after being held without charges for more than two years.
Let's see you defend Bush's terrorism policy. Come on, waiting.
Bush needs to go. Iraq is a mess. He doesn't know what he's doing. Wrong man for the job, and it's painfully obvious.
Folks, here's the ANSWER to any question/slur the Attack Dogs for Bush bring up about Kerry's service record:
"Pres. Bush has said he doesn't question Kerry's service. Sen. Kerry has said he doesn't question President Bush's service. The issue in this election is not Viet Nam 1968, it is what each man will do beginning January 20, 2005.
Let's talk about that. Sen. Kerry has his proposal on the table. Pres. Bush, what's yours?"
Rinse. Repeat as needed.
Hey, Anon -
what's more important to you in this Presidential election:
a) Where John Kerry spent Christmas, 1968
b) What Bush plans to do in his second term
I answer (b) - let's talk about that for a while, shall we?
jac | Email | Homepage | 08.12.04 - 10:40 am | #
If you read the thread you'd see I don't give a shit about the Kerry war record and I want to see him win. Still, I don't feel like I need to defend things I don't think are true.
The Coast Guard was not safe. They too served in Vietnam.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/
hist...ichvietnam.html
Sweet Jesus.
The Mekong Delta is a large area technically inside Vietnam that borders Cambodia. That the swift boats took fire and returned fire from Cambodia and helped support spec ops inside Cambodia during that time is a historical fact. And, at the same time, our leaders were saying, and continued to say that we weren't in Cambodia, when we were. Kerry was either in or near Cambodia, waging a hot war. We were told it wasn't happening when it was. Now which is the bigger lie and which is the bigger truth.
Goddamn, get your head out of your ass and focus on shit that counts.
We're in another fucking war, losing young men and woemn, killing innocents, and spending billions to rebuild a country because our present administration is either dishonest, incompetent, or both.
Goddamn, Anonymous, you'd be bitching about the color of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
My husband was drafted in Jan. 1968 and naturally served for 2 years. That was a very long time ago, but I guarantee you that he could give you dozens and dozens of names of fellow soldiers that could verify every single minute of those two years. I also remember the names of many, many of his friends at the time. If any one of them were the President of the United States, we would be quite aware of it. What I am saying, is why in the HELL, can't dozens of fellow Guardsmen come forward to comfirm Bush's every moment of his service. It isn't exactly the same as being in the private sector.
Mr Kerry has claimed that he spent Christmas 1968 inside Cambodia, at a time when even the US president was publicly denying that American forces were inside that country.
Wow, even the US President was denying our forces were in the country. Wow, that definitely means we must not have had anybody in Cambodia, because we know a President wouldn't lie about a thing like that...
These are the facts: it was well known in 1966-67 (before Kerry's tour in 196 that swift boat duty was not dangerous. Anyone who volunteered for that kind of duty was not asking for trouble. Those who say otherwise do not know what they are talking about.
I'll take that as accurate.
But it turned dangerous, didn't it? And Kerry didn't use his influence, assuming as a rich kid he had any (now that's a dangerous assumption, huh?), to get out of it when it turned into dangerous, did he?
And Bush (who's the other choice here, and therefore part of the equation): how dangerous was his choice of duty? When he explicitly refused to go to Vietnam, and then decided even flight training was too inconvenient.
So the point of Kerry's choice again is....what?
Goddamn, Anonymous, you'd be bitching about the color of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I'd like a chair where I can hear the band playing on...
Oh, and to throw another stone into the soup, I was sent to Colombia when it was against the law for American soldiers to be in Colombia. That was in 1971. Does that mean I wasn't in Colombia? According to the US Government, I was in Panama at the time.
Sorry, George W Bush, Preznit is me, cosmic.
Forgot to change punch lines with the jokes.
"Was he in Cambodia in the heroic manner he describes on Christmas eve 1968? Definitely not"
Definitely not, huh?
Then you have proof Kerry wasn't in Cambodia? You do have document that prove Kerry wasn't in Cambodia?
NO?
So Kerry "definitely" wasn't in Cambodia because you and a proven freeper racist say it's true?
its the ADMINISTRATION, stupid! saying Kerry's view on Iraq is no different than Bush's requires a high level of idiocy. The whole equation is changed when you have a REAL Sec. of Defense, a REAL Attorney General, a REAL Sec. of State, a REAL VP, and a REAL President. These are where Bush's major problems are, the staggering incompetence of not just himself, but his entire administration. You get rid of these bloodsuckers, and you get different decisions regarding every matter.
That would mean - no war to begin with, proper troop levels if there were to be one, proper armor and supplies, no TORTURE and RAPE policy, it would still suck, but every stage would be better planned and executed. Period. It couldn't have been done worse, unless Wolfowitz, Feith and Perle had had their way and sent our troops in there with what, 6,000 - 10,000 - that's what those idiots were calling for. How, how on Earth can Bush or anyone who works for him have any credibility left on this issue, and WHY is Spinsanity doing their dirty work for them to any degree?
Now you done it, you made me go into my dank and dusty library to pull out my copy of "Side-Show" by William Shawcross.
Hey wingnuts: tell all the spouses of the supply specialists and truck drivers killed in Iraq how safe it is to serve in a combat zone. After all, they weren't combat arms, right?
Tell all the parents of the sailors killed on the USS Cole how safe it was to serve on a ship off the coast of Iraq during a time of "peace."
Tell all the children of the radiomen, nurses, and personnel clerks killed in Vietnam how the deaths of their moms and dads are somehow devalued because they were serving in a "safe" part of the country.
Vietnam was an insurgency, just like Iraq. There was no "safe" place to serve.
This from a political faction that never fails to claim that they "support our troops."
but, but, cosmic....
that would have been ilegal!
well, illegal, anyway....
I apologize if this was mentioned farther up the thread, but Kerry asked for PBR duty first (that's "Patrol Boat, River," as opposed to Pabst Blue Ribbon, the sort of duty Bush wanted).
And PBR's were very dangerous. Swift boats were Kerry's second choice.
Look at his transfer request, if you don't believe me.
"These are the facts: it was well known in 1966-67 (before Kerry's tour in (sic)196 that swift boat duty was not dangerous."
Donald Baldwin, may I suggest that you go over to Steve Gilliard's blog, and learn something.
http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com
That Baldwin was spoofed.
He states upthread that swift boat duty was hazardous.
Look, I can understand how the 200 vets can all agree that things went one way when they actually went another.
Memory, as researchers tell us, recalls not the incident itself, but our most recent memory of the incident. If you can convince 30% of the American public that Bush is competent and truthful, you can convince 200 vets who already hate Kerry for his VVAW leadership that Kerry didn't deserve his medals, especially if it happened 35 years ago and they weren't there to see it.
My beef isn't with those vets, it's with the scumbags using them to support a coward who's grown smug on unearned privilege and lived a life devoid of personal responsibility.
This is unbelievable. How can being in a war zone be wrong, and hiding out in the US committing fraud with tax dollars (paid to be a pilot/not flying) be right?
Most unbelievable: that THIS, and not dereliction of duty, is the issue. Did they put something in the water? It's the flouride, isn't it.
The bottom line though, all of this Swift Boat discussion is just smoke and mirrors to keep the discussion off of Bush's performance as President. We were just so totally outraged that Bush would go to war without the U.N. and the rest of the world, not to mention, not waiting for the inspectors to finish their job. ( a job that would still be going on today ). When you start looking at how Bush has screwed up medicare and the drug card, economy, health ins. etc etc. it is mind draining. I just don't understand why the Bush supporters aren't concerned for themselves.
I think Pandagon.net's description of Spinsanity holds true:
Imagine that you have a jar of marbles. There are marbles of many colors in the jar. You must sort all the marbles into smaller jars, by color. As exciting as that would be to watch, Spinsanity is to read. And now, they have a column.
My beef with Spinsanity has nothing to do with partisanship. It has to do with the utter irrelevance of the site's function. It seems like it wants to be the vanguard of political rhetoric. Instead, the average Spinsanity article goes like this:
"Someone is saying something. It's bad. Someone else is saying something that people are saying is bad, but it's sort of accurate, at least until we find out something else. Someone else is also saying something about this whole thing, and that's bad, too."
Every once in a while, they do a useful debunking, but that's about it. If you sucked all the passion, energy and interest out of the blogosphere, you'd have the interminable communications class that is Spinsanity. A lot of what they do is good in theory, but the execution is like watching paint dry while getting your mouth suctioned.
no point, pie
they have no reason to vote for Bush
they just have to piss on Kerry
and someone else bottled that piss for them
bad faith
Yep, just as I figured, there were a number of secret intrusions into Cambodia at in late 1968.
Ah yes, he was such a coward that he voluntered for the "safe" job. In a war.
The "safe" part of the war. In Vietnam.
Not the dangerous flight school training in the Air National Guard, the safe part of the war, in Vietnam, on a boat.
I want control over my reality back, now, please.
Nancy,
While it is true that many of the things we did in Latin America were illegal, they were all sanctioned by a higher power:
Capitalism.
Bow down and kiss the hem.
The Right fetishized the military in the run-up to Iraq. Now they are tearing down a decorated Vietnam war hero by maligning his service.
Should we have expected any more from them?
One of the lessons of Shawcross, which always keeps coming back to me with regard to Iraq...
is by destabilizing Cambodia, we set up the abuses of Pol Pot.
What beast is slouching towards Samarra?
(a little mixed metaphor)
http://www.tatanka.com/reading/h...le/
samarra.html
Spinsanity discusses Dr. Letson, who claims to have treated Kerry, without mentioning that the records do not support his claim, but show that another doctor did so. So much for their ability to get at the relevant facts.
more herrings.
WHERE was georgie???
Spinsanity outlived it usefulness a couple of years ago.
We need a commercial for our side
so that it can be the news story.
Something like Air National Guardsman against Humiliation --George Bush where were you?
Come Clean and tell us what clinic you were in and why you couldn't take the medical to be approved for flying.
I think the GOP really needs to emphasize to
all the soldiers in the field:
ANY military member not on full combat
infantry, in a war zone, for a MINIMUM of
365 consecutive days is a PUSSY. If Kerry
is a puss for being on a boat away from
the action, George W. Bush sez SO ARE
YOU.
ANY medals a military member earns is
SUSPECT. If Kerry's medals are suspect,
George W. Bush sez SO ARE YOURS.
We need to project that if these guys are
denigrating Kerry's service ("the wimp was
only their for a few weeks; his wounds were
just scratches, Swift Boat duty is for pussies")
they are ALSO denigrating the service of
Gulf soldiers and sailors serving in Kuwait,
Saudi, etc and on ships in the Gulf. Hey
guys, Dubya thinks you're a PUSSY!
Not to mention the Swift Boat Veterans are insulting THEMSELVES by implying Swift
Boat duty ain't all that tough! What idiots!
“Mr. Kerry's four-plus months in Vietnam made for an unusually short tour” is wrong. By ignoring Senator Kerry’s year tour of duty on the USS Gridley, a guided-missile frigate in the waters adjacent to Vietnam, The Washington Post and the GOP talking point has slimed every sailor that served off of Vietnam and did their duty . In sharp contrast to the current President who was kick off of flight status for not taking his required physical in the Texas Air National Guard.
Here's a picture of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth! (bottom of the page)
http://tinyurl.com/54h68
You know, I'm not too worried about all this swift boat crap in relation to the election, because, after all, it's August.
Once the first debate takes place, and the cowardly sack of shit melts on the stage, the election will then be over, and we'll just have to worry about how much damage the cowardly twit will do during his lame duck period. Probably pardoning every last swinging dick thief in the employ of Halliburton or Enron, I'd guess.
And that quote about from that Kerry guy, like we could believe him. What did he say? Oh yeah
"When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling, and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."
Was he lying, ingnorant, misled? How dare he defame his own service.
Looks pretty obvious he wasn't in Cambodia, don't you think?
cnn poll: did john kerry have a "holiday in cambodia"?
55% who cares?
38% why are you wasting my time with this stupid fucking question?
7% as long as he's not a deserter, he's got my vote
The Spinsanity guys are such fucking hacks. The worst thing they do, which is typical among alleged "neutral centrists," is to conflate occasional mistakes or sloppiness or even plain old SARCASM on the Left with flat-out, willful, malicious lying on the Right.
I've often thought it'd be nice to subject their writing to the same scrutiny they give other people's writing. But there are bigger fish to fry, for now.
www.fact-check.org does reasonably well on SBVT, BTW.
Not dangerous? Yeah Kerry volunteered to replace a wounded skipper. Next they will be telling us firefighting is not dangerous.
Imagine what these assholes could do if they had Cheney's record to work with....
Re: "safe" Navy duty
If it was so damned cushy, why did my late father get hazard pay for going to Vietnam as a meteorologist? Even if he was really on intelligence detail, I guarantee you he was not flying a plane or piloting a boat.
Tobor is a young weenie.
Boston Globe: ...swiftboats "were still considered relatively safe" duty.
Kerry said: "When I signed up for the swiftboats, they had very little to do with the war"...
With a long memory (I'm a 65 year old USAF vet) and a little research I found this information, probably withheld by the Navy back then; certainly not told to volunteers for swiftboats. Combat and accident deaths of swiftboat crews had started as early as Feb. 1966.
http://swiftboats.net/extras/cas.../
casualties.htm
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