I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I'll be thrilled when we stop talking about people's sexuality in this country.
I don't expect it anytime soon.
I guess us Democrats are "fag lovers" now. That's okay, forty years ago we were "n----- lovers"... I think history has vindicated us.
or bisexual since he has fathered children
What? Have they been listening?
How is this different than if they had said "or not really gay at all since he has been married"?
Corruption? In New Jersey?
Looks like they met in March 2000, before McGreevey was governor, when he was Mayor of Woodbridge, and before his younger daughter was born.
well "met" is not "having an affair with." It's highly probable, I just haven't seen it as established fact.
Please, keep paying attention to this super-important story.
well "met" is not "having an affair with." It's highly probable, I just haven't seen it as established fact.
And, also, before he married his present wife.
It's all wrapped up in the difficult of being an out gay man in public life in America, so all I can fault is the hiring an unqualified lover for a sensitive, important security position, and the poor judgment evidenced by having an affair (if you believe McGreevey, not Cipel) with someone who'd end up going public like this.
If you're in public life, and you're going to have an affair, choose someone who's got as much to lose by its being disclosed publicly as you do.
The fact that he is homosexual -- or bisexual since he has fathered children
Git back in the closet, Mister Gay American.
_______
It's wholly possible that McGreevey is corrupt, quite apart from his sexuality.
I'm with Fourlegsgood on this one.
Atrios: well, McGreevey's not talking about it any more, and Cipel's claiming it wasn't an affair but a series of harrasing events (v. hard to believe), so we're not going to hear until BaBaWaWa or Lesley Stahl lands The Big Get with the Governor and his wife.
Conflict of interest more than a personal peccadillo. Bill Clinton got embroiled in a simple sex scandal. McGreevy is accused of patronage.
He's innocent until proven guilty, of course. It's also unfair that a gay affair is so intrinsically politically damaging. The fact is that accusations of a heterosexual affair or of simple cronyism probably wouldn't have ended his career so quickly.
...'I am a Currupt-American'
Hey, America! Yes, you! Grow the fuck up! Evolve for pete's sake! People have sex! Been doing it for forever and aren't likely to stop any time soon. Go buy a clue and come back when you have the receipt!
Shees!
Uh, Delaware News Journal needs to learn a bit more about sexual orientation. The fact that a gay person is capable of functioning sexually with the opposite sex does not make him or her bisexual. Looked at another way, the fact that a heterosexual person is capable of functioning sexually with a member of the same sex does not make him or her bisexual.
Any truth to the rumor going around that McGreevey's lover is israeli mossad? That would explain some things timing and such...
Thanks, Seth - I was just about to make the same point. The editorial makes a number of inappropriate assumptions, not the least of which is that biological or sexual function is inextricably linked to sexuality - which, as we know, is not the case.
The timing of the relationship is relevant. Did McGreevey hire him in hopes of getting him into bed? Did he become McGreevey's lover and then get the job as a favor? Was McGreevey forced into giving him the job after they became lovers and was threatened with disclosure?
So many questions... all of them tabloid level. Seems like a lot of speculation ("bad choices" and "badly flawed judgment") without many facts. Maybe anyone interested in journalistic integrity might want to step back and take a few deep breaths before leaping to any breathless conclusions. I know that's asking a lot...
This is bullshit. McGreevey has hurt the party with his extremely objectionable misconduct as governor. His sexuality is not an issue, but it's shitty and wrong that he gave his "I am a gay american speech" to deflect attention away from his corruption.
Oh, and this sucks for his wife/kids too. All that seems to stink worse than a Delaware newspaper not using especially precise language to declare its tolerance for homosexuality.
So, Atrios doesn't feel the need to apologise for double-posting, hmmm?
my name is eleazar carmeli and i just think that israeli poet guy is way too cute ...... i would take him rollerblading and show him my collection of fireman sculptures..
i know i couldnt keep my hands off him if i was governor....
thats all,,,
eleazar cold
Good points Atrios.
It's still too often true in this country that a "fag" is a gay man who just left the room. If him being gay is not an issue than why mention it.
I'm tired of hearing "it's not that he was gay, he was conniver"
Wow that statement has much in common with the stereotype of gay villains.
"Gays can't be trusted b/c they are a security risk" --- No, CLOSETED gays are a security risk.
Gays in the armed forces are limp-wristed on the battlefield but predators in the showers – now that’s a contradiction, which is it? NEITHER.
It's the same as saying, "It's not that she is black, she just is uppity" or "it not that he's a Jew but he's money grubbing."
I love it when they correct people on how they describe themselves...
like the gov isn't really gay...
(like Steve Forbes' Dad)
or that Obama isn't really black.
I tend to think that someone is entitled to describe himself as he prefers....
and if the guy says he is gay...he's gay.
I'm getting the sense that a lot of gays/lesbians and their supporters will defend McGreevey simply because the Democratic Party backed down on gay marriage.
They're going to take a stand here, even though it's the wrong stand.
It would have been better for the Democrats to come out and take the Republicans head on on the gay marriage issue, but now we're left wit defending one corrupt governer.
Jesse Ventura won the statehouse in Minnesota (the heartland last time I checked) while openly supporting gay marriage.
I bet you could do the same in New York.
Everything I've read about this story leads me to think that Golan Cipel was (and is) a manipulative little prick who got what he wanted by threatening to out McGreevey. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that McGreevey appointed him to the N.J. Homeland Security office because of such a threat.
I'm back!
After posting the now famous chart of terror alerts vs. Bush ratings, I was subject of a campaign of email harassment, email virus attacks, and a few attempts of intrusion to my computer.
Last Sunday my home computer was obliterated: despite using several layers of protection (anti-virus software, firewall), the HD was rendered inoperable and lost everything in it. Emergency programs could not even see the C: drive. After a week of trying different procedures and recovery programs and thanks to the help of some friends, IT specialists, I was able to recently recover about 50 or 60% of my data. The rest was corrupted for good.
I'm in the process of reformatting everything, reinstalling the OS and getting back to business as usual (although I lost an entire week just working on trying to resuscitate my computer, and the loss of over 40% of everything I archived there.
I can get online already, and soon I'll be be posting again in my blog.
Thanks so much to all of you who supported me in this nightmare.
Any truth to the rumor going around that McGreevey's lover is israeli mossad? That would explain some things timing and such...
Yes. He also works for the Carlyle Group.
Nobody is defending McGreevey...we are discussing him and situation.
We haven't backed down on gay marriage either....
we have made civil unions acceptable. I remember a time when people thought that would ruin Howard Dean.
Any truth to the rumor going around that McGreevey's lover is israeli mossad? That would explain some things timing and such...
Remember: Jew = Israeli Mossad agent who blew up the World Trade Center.
We haven't backed down on gay marriage either....
Of course you have.
You're not willing to pressure Kerry to give up his "marriage should be between a man and a woman" stance yet you'll defend McGreevey.
Of course if you do think Kerry should come out in favor of gay marriage, I stand corrected.
I'm back!
After posting the now famous chart of terror alerts vs. Bush ratings, I was subject of a campaign of email harassment, email virus attacks, and a few attempts of intrusion to my computer.
Last Sunday my home computer was obliterated: despite using several layers of protection (anti-virus software, firewall), the HD was rendered inoperable and lost everything in it. Emergency programs could not even see the C: drive. After a week of trying different procedures and recovery programs and thanks to the help of some friends, IT specialists, I was able to recently recover about 50 or 60% of my data. The rest was corrupted for good.
I'm in the process of reformatting everything, reinstalling the OS and getting back to business as usual (although I lost an entire week just working on trying to resuscitate my computer, and the loss of over 40% of everything I archived there.
I can get online already, and soon I'll be be posting again in my blog.
Thanks so much to all of you who supported me through this ordeal.
Gays cover the entire spectrum just like straights - good to bad, beautiful to ugly of both/either mind and/or body.
So if McGreevy is corrupt prosecute him fully.
But don't persecute him b/c of his sexual orientation.
At least that part of his resignation announcement took tremendous courage.
But don't persecute him b/c of his sexual orientation.
And don't defend him just because of his sexual orientation either.
How about you, are you in favor of Kerry openly supporting gay marriage?
a lot of gays/lesbians and their supporters will defend McGreevey simply because the Democratic Party backed down on gay marriage. They're going to take a stand here, even though it's the wrong stand.
We are? Got any evidence of this occuring?
I don't see the problem with his choice of words here Atrios.
It's obvious that despite our own enlightened sense of worldview regarding the right of homosexuals to live within our society with the same rights and privileges as any other american, to a large segment of the country there is and always will be an issue regarding both the moral and natural implications which demand that it be continuously addressed as an issue to be debated.
Just because we don't like it doesn't mean the author of that article was off or in any less objective by phrasing it the way he did.
Homosexuality will always be an issue. There is no way around it. To debunk the article because the author does hot hold your opinion on the subject does not make it a bad article.
MYOB'
.
At least that part of his resignation announcement took tremendous courage.
Bullshit. He's gay? Fine, no problem. But don't tell me that he did that out of some deep sense of personal courage and not a way to deflect attention from this transparent quid pro quo deal that he made with his boyfriend. These are politicians were're talking about. In New Jersey. Corruption is corruption is corruption.
@Uncle $cam:
In a perfect world, that would be a tin-foil-hat question that reasonable people would never have to ask.
On the other hand, we live in a world that is hardly perfect, so...
Fundamentally, though, this whole story, no matter which way it breaks, hinges on one inescapable fact: A politician in office, who happens also to be gay, carries with him or her an extra layer of sad and awful responsibility. That layer requires him or her to conceal the reality of whom they are in truth. That concealment, that responsibility to preserving that secret is malignant, since, as we can see, it can force them to make really bad decisions.That layer makes them vulnerable in ways that no politician and no person should ever be.
But we can make sure that something like this never, ever happens again: Get the f*** off the backs of good, competant people who are called to public service and happen to be gay.
Who knows? We might just end up with one hell of a Mr. President with a First Man or a Ms. President with a First Lady. And someone who turns out not to have to stand on the shoulders of giants, for they are a giant all by themself.
Hardly inconceivable. Hardly.
We are? Got any evidence of this occuring?
How about this.
"John Kerry believes a marriage is between a man and a woman"
Get the f*** off the backs of good, competant people who are called to public service and happen to be gay.
You're forgetting that McGreevey wasn't particularly good, wasn't particularly competent and he certainly wasn't popular in NJ.
We'll pressure Kerry on his gay marriage position once he becomes president. What we won't do is allow it to become the wedge issue Bush wants it to become. A constitutional amendment? Give me a break.
I'm gay and I'm not in favor of "gay marriage” I believe that EVERYONE, straight or gay and married or single should have the same tax burdens. And all people with partners should have the same property rights such as inheritance and hospital and medical decision rights. "gay Marriage" is a trap phrase to me. Most families in America today are not straight, 2 parent families so why focus just on the "gay" aspect of family rights?
This is an ambitious man who lived a lie. Straight, gay, or homosexual-doesn't matter. But he didn't just tell a lie or two ortwo hundred. He lived a lie every moment of every day of his life and only came out when threatened(or blackmailed). That is a major character flaw that shouldn't be tolerated in our elected officials. And what about his wife and kids? Talk about a rude awakening!
Corruption is corruption is corruption.
And being gay in murka is being gay in murka is being gay in murka.
The situation involves both concerns. If McGreevey is not herioc, he is also not less than human.
"John Kerry believes a marriage is between a man and a woman"
That's not an example of evidence in support of the claim.
We'll pressure Kerry on his gay marriage position once he becomes president. What we won't do is allow it to become the wedge issue Bush wants it to become.
McGreevey can also become a wedge issue.
Re: Gay marriage
I think a pretty good solution is to get rid of marriage altogether as a government-recognized institution and replace it with civil unions for both straights and gays. This would be primarily a change in terminology but the point would be to establish explicitly that governments are only interested in the union of two people with regard to taxes, medical care, and all the other "benefits." People will still be able to get married in churches or whatever and governments won't no longer have to fret about protecting the "sanctity" of marriage (something that they never should have construed as one of their duties).
@Anon:
When did the blackmail that is purported to have taken place first start? What did it lead to? What demands were placed? What was done to meet those demands?
I think a lot of explanations could hinge on that.
Well it isn't like from time immemorial people didn't put their lovers, friends, brothers-in-law and whoever else on their political payroll, qualified or not. I mean c'mon. That's one reason why they invented civil service, to try to keep down the nepotism. Of course, civil service rules don't cover executive appointments.
Far different treatment for McGreevey than Rick Perry, who I believe put his lover-boy on the Texas payroll, Chief of Staff or something. The GOP just saw that that whole thing was covered up and the public was chastised for listening to the rumors.
"transparent quid pro quo deal"
Well, anonymous, do you know something we don't know? If you do, please enlighten us. If not, then lets just keep to the facts. Isn't that what reasonable, intelligent people do?
That's not an example of evidence in support of the claim.
OK. Clear up your own stance. Do you think Kerry should drop the bullshit and "come out" in favor of gay marriage?
I do. Let's not assume everybody in the US is "stupid" and Bush can successfully use it as a "wedge issue." Once again, Jesse Ventura ran openly in favor of gay marriage in a Midwestern state and won.
Let's assume people have some intelligence for a change and not depend on the elite to save us.
Both Kerry and Edwards support granting gays and lesbians rights to make medical dicisions for their partners and for gays and lesbians to be able to have/adopt children and to form families.
If not, then lets just keep to the facts.
Guy #1 has a romance with Guy #2 who happens to have absolutely zero experience with security issues. Ta-da! Guy #2 miraculously gets position as homeland security director. In New Jersey.
If this was a Republican who had an affair with a woman and she was given a position like that, I'm sure it would seem pretty transparent to you.
Don't let the gay marriage thing get in the way of this.
It would be sort of funny if there weren't al Qaeda-types trying to nuke Times Square.
Julius, I'm sorry to hear about your brown shirt attack. Keep up the good fight.
Ever few weeks, I get viruses sent under the falsified addresses of everyone the General's written. The last batch came this week.
I now read all my email without downloading it from the server using a text based client, Mailwasher.
@Anon:
NJN listener, huh?
Happen to notice what happened to the unconstitutional deficit that he was left with, by The Supreme Governoretta, Her Majesty Christine I? He was paying it down. Considerably.
That was, by law, Job One on his plate. And he was doing it. There was no way, especially in light of the way the NE States gets screwed on tax dollars that come back from DC, that there would not be pain. No way.
So yes, in light of that, I would say he was competant. But Belly-Aching Frothing Right-Wing Parrots that listen to Bitch 101 wouldn't.
Anon:
Bushboy has never been particularly good, particularly competent and he didn't win the popular vote for POTUS and yet you Goopers feel no constraints about saddling us with this monumental dunce and fuck-up!
And as far as I know McGreavey didn't send nearly 1000 poor bastards to fight and die in a pointless war, while looting the US Treasury for his fatcat friends.
Give me a break!
yea part of the issue is that he could not have been out and ever stood a chance of being governor of NJ - that's why this discussion is taking place - b/c there is still much discrimination against gays and lesbians in America.
BTW, as far as the "double standard" goes.
Maybe (probably) McGreevey's homosexuality made it more likely he'd resign.
But it also makes is *less likely* that Cipel's charges of rape/sexual harassment are going to be believed.
Most people think Cipel's charges are a joke since he's ten years younger and a half a foot taller than McGreevey.
If it were a woman making the same charges, more people would take it seriously. So even if McGreevey were straight, he'd still be open to blackmail.
SWR, I don't see how McGreevey can become a wedge issue. Is the issue his homosexuality? Or his bad judgement? 'Cause last time I looked, neither party hold a franchise on gayness or bad judgement.
@Anon:
NJN listener, huh?
Happen to notice what happened to the unconstitutional deficit that he was left with, by The Supreme Governoretta, Her Majesty Christine I? He was paying it down. Considerably.
That was, by law, Job One on his plate. And he was doing it. There was no way, especially in light of the way the NE States gets screwed on tax dollars that come back from DC, that there would not be pain. No way.
So yes, in light of that, I would say he was competant. But Belly-Aching Frothing Right-Wing Parrots that listen to Bitch 101 wouldn't.
And if I remember correctly, Jesse Ventura wasn't running on a gay marriage platform. The fact that a majority of Minnesotans reject gay marriage and still elected Jesse shows that it wasn't very high on his list of priorities. I don't remember it even registering on the radar.
Why is nepotism an issue now? It wasn't an issue when Guilini gave his ex-girlfirend Christine Latagano a 6 figure job as head of travel and tourism. Oh yeah, IOKIYAR.
Tomorrow's NYT has a little more on the timing, that less than three weeks ago "Mr. McGreevey acknowledged that he and Mr. Cipel had had a sexual relationship for several months, ending in the early spring of 2002."
Anonymous,
read my post again-
Gays cover the entire spectrum just like straights - good to bad, beautiful to ugly of both/either mind and/or body.
So if McGreevy is corrupt prosecute him fully.
SWR, I don't see how McGreevey can become a wedge issue. Is the issue his homosexuality? Or his bad judgement? 'Cause last time I looked, neither party hold a franchise on gayness or bad judgement.
It's going to become a wedge issue if the NJ Republicans are competant enough to make it one, to make his staying in office until November that issue.
But I don't know if they will be. They're pretty incompetant.
It could also be a wedge issue among people who don't approve of gays but approve of gay marriage/gay rights as a privacy/separation of church and state issue.
In a lot of places, the typical middle of the road voter only cares about an issue when it affects him/her. McGreevey just gave them an excuse to think of homosexuality and corruption in the same breath.
The best thing right now would be for some (clean, free of corruption) gay politicians to come out of the closet to provide a counterweight.
But I won't hold my breath.
Happen to notice what happened to the unconstitutional deficit that he was left with, by The Supreme Governoretta, Her Majesty Christine I? He was paying it down. Considerably.
That's an amazing non-sequitor. Sure, Whitman was a terrible. That doesn't change the fact that McGreevey was not at all popular and wasn't perceived by the voters to be good at his job. He's not some gay rights martyr, he's another political hack paying the price for his adolescent dalliances and backroom back-scratching. It's pretty typical, if you ask me, just gay.
If dimwit Bushboy hadn't blown $144 billion on a stupid war in Iraq and hadn't siphoned off another $100 billion in tax cuts for his rich friends, there might be enough money to actually do Homeland Security right and examine shipping containers coming into our ports as well as guarding chemical and nuke plants.
He also might have gotten Osama and the al Qaeda leadership in Tora Bora if he hadn't turned the job over to the corrupt warlords.
Only a someone who is brainwashed or braindead would ignore the culpability of Bushboy for the compromised state of our national security.
If dimwit Bushboy hadn't blown $144 billion on a stupid war in Iraq and hadn't siphoned off another $100 billion in tax cuts for his rich friends, there might be enough money to actually do Homeland Security right and examine shipping containers coming into our ports as well as guarding chemical and nuke plants.
He also might have gotten Osama and the al Qaeda leadership in Tora Bora if he hadn't turned the job over to the corrupt warlords.
Only a someone who is brainwashed or braindead would ignore the culpability of Bushboy for the compromised state of our national security.
cynic: at least Cristyne Lategano was (a) well-qualified for the post she took, and (b) discreet enough in their alleged affair that it in no way affected his ability to govern. See what I said above.
yea part of the issue is that he could not have been out and ever stood a chance of being governor of NJ
You won't know it unless somebody actually tries it.
Maybe New Jersey isn't the right place but in some state (Vermont? Oregon?) an openly gay person could win.
Sorry this was meant to be addressed to maroon golf but honmono wrote it -
yea part of the issue is that he could not have been out and ever stood a chance of being governor of NJ - that's why this discussion is taking place - b/c there is still much discrimination against gays and lesbians in America.
I want everyone to be in favor of gay marriage. It's a civil rights issue.
But it's not my number one issue.
Maybe New Jersey isn't the right place but in some state (Vermont? Oregon?) an openly gay person could win.
So bigotry is okay in some states as long as the majority believes that the discrimination is good?
Yet another homophobic comment.
So bigotry is okay in some states as long as the majority believes that the discrimination is good?
Yet another homophobic comment.
Nope. I'm saying that you have to start somewhere.
You know, climb Mount Rainier before you try Everest.
I am sick of the whole gay issue- I think appointing an unqualified person to office for any reason is unethical- nepotism, capital cronyism, sexual favors, political expedience/debts whatever. Jeeze, just look at the Bush admins appointees. What's worse? Appointing an incompetent lover or doing it for their money? Sounds like whoring either way.
Adam:
I don't know what dictionary you use but Giuliani's mistriss was vying to move into Gracie Mansion with him while his wife and children still lived there!
If not for a court order that forbade the egomanical Giuliani from parading his paramour around Gracie Mansion while his wife and children hid in some other part of the building, the "discreet couple" might have been caught boinking in the kitchen!
Everest is in the Himalayas; swamps are in Jersey.
If not for a court order that forbade the egomanical Giuliani from parading his paramour around Gracie Mansion while his wife and children hid in some other part of the building, the "discreet couple" might have been caught boinking in the kitchen!
I think that was Judy Nathan.
But Rudy was a laughing stock until 9/11. His wife didn't support him. She busted his balls in public.
He was definitely not discrete and it definitely hurt him.
@SWR:
I do not see the NJ Repugs being able to mount their family dog, much less something like what they are trying now. They are in the midst of a fierce internal struggle, between the more moderate forces and the frothers for the soul and control of the party. Much of their energies are scattered by this internal schism. Many of their more radical right-wing members have been marginalized. They even threw Assemblywoman Connie Myers(R-23rd District, Hunterdon-Warren) out of the Repug Caucus, when she went completely batshit and medieval in a caucus meeting. The other 23rd assemblyman, Mike Doherty, is The Longest Running Joke in The Assembly. He froths reflexively. Other examples exist and their numbers are legion. So much for effective representation and advocacy in the 23rd, but it is indicative of the schism that exists.
Back during the early days of the last Assembly Election cycle, you wouldn't believe who was out and about, recruiting Dem Assembly candidates and soliciting contributions for them, albeit quietly. You just wouldn't believe it.
"McGreevey just gave them the excuse to think of homosexuality and corruption in the same breath."
SWR: I would argue that anyone who is looking for that excuse doesn't really need an excuse to find it. And I think your response is exactly why Atrios picked a bone with the article in question in the first place. The fact that McGreevey's sexuality is implicitly connected to the possibility of curruption is the problem. Atrios was saying that his sexuality is not "LESS of an issue," but should be "NOT an issue." By claiming that it is less of an issue the implication is that it is still an issue and thus links his sexuality with the alleged corruption.
oops... Appointing an incompetent lover or doing it for someone's money?
OT but there was a pretty good article in, I forget, either this morning's NYT or WaPo about how Bush has been flying under the radar as he changes tons and tons of regulations. You know, those rules that do things like protect consumers and prevent pollution. He's generally been able to do it without going to Congress and with almost no attention from the press. It's going to take years to undo the damage this one man has done to our country.
Adam - you wrote
cynic: at least Cristyne Lategano was (a) well-qualified for the post she took, and (b) discreet enough in their alleged affair that it in no way affected his ability to govern.
Christine going to Gracie Mansion to host a benefit while Rudy's wife and children were living there is discrete?
As to being qualified for the tourism post. She was a nurse, for crying out loud. What does that have to do with official tourism in one the biggest cities in the world?
no imagination,
I'm with you. Appointing an unqualified person (gay or not gay) to a position of power leads to nothing but trouble.
Look what happened when the Supreme Court appointed George W Bush to the White House.
Trouble, my friend,
With a capital T
and that rhymes with G
and that stands for Gay.
Or maybe not.
I do not see the NJ Repugs being able to mount their family dog, much less something like what they are trying now.
Yes. I kind of think two things will prevent McGreevey from becoming a wedge issue.
1.) The sheer incompetence of the New Jersey Republicans.
2.) Cipel's nationality. The Dem/Republican consensus on Israel assumes it won't be debated in any way, that any attempt to talk about the relation of Israel and the US is "anti-semitic."
So I think this will pass pretty harmlessly.
But if it were a media saturated state like California and the governers lover were Chinese or French. Yikes.
And don't defend him just because of his sexual orientation either
I'm not sure whether these comments are troll-bait or not; it would be a valid point if that were actually going on here. I commented yesterday that I was noticing the absence of such a perspective, and that we on the left are more than willing to condemn bad behavior by our own (unlike some other political orientations I can think of).
I think more and more this perspective derives from the binary worldview being propagated and exploited by the current neocons in which people are good/bad (i.e., if you are sympathetic to his struggle regarding his sexuality, then you must also be excusing his unrelated conduct). Nuance (a word sadly becoming a pejorative) and complexity are not appreciated. I think it's no accident that those who are more comfortable with absolutes gravitate toward a political party that promises them.
I see no point in arguing over the worldviews- to me the way to succeed in the long run is to continue to hold a mirror up to the binary thinkers to demonstrate that a lot of things they put in the "bad" category don't quite fit according to their own values. My impression of the group who regularly post here is that they are more offended by the staggering hypocrisy of many of those on the right (particularly the neocons) than by their political beliefs. Pity the hypocrite, hate the hypocrisy (as it were).
"If not for a court order that forbade the egomanical Giuliani from parading his paramour around Gracie Mansion while his wife and children hid in some other part of the building, the "discreet couple" might have been caught boinking in the kitchen!" Rudy
Who cares? We should lighten up wasn't it François Mitterrand's mistress who showed up front and center with his family at the his funeral? Not that I am in to that sort of thing... but hey, can't we spread the love 
The fact that McGreevey's sexuality is implicitly connected to the possibility of curruption is the problem.
McGreevey resigned saying "I'm a gay American" not "this Kushner thing is making it impossible for me to govern."
He put it on the table.
SWR: it was Judi Nathan; they were indiscreet as a couple, for sure. But unlike Cipel, it was his own carelessness that made it public, not the vindictive actions of an ex.
That's part of what was so infuriating about Clinton/Lewinsky to me. You want to have an affair? Fine. None of my business. But don't do it with someone whose judgment is so poor that the one person she blabs about it to that the first person she tells about it is someone bent on doing you harm.
@Anon:
So, it's down to popularity? Horseshit. The leader is often the one with the guts to do the unpopular thing, because it's the right thing to do. In the case of the unconstitutional Whitman Deficit, paying it down, any legal way they could, was the ONLY thing they could do.
Isn't it time for you to return to the nj.com Statehouse Bitching Forum? Surely it is. Or the 3-Card Monte Game you run.
non sequitor indeed...
cosmic grappler, how was the Veteran's for Kerry meeting?
That's part of what was so infuriating about Clinton/Lewinsky to me. You want to have an affair? Fine. None of my business. But don't do it with someone whose judgment is so poor that the one person she blabs about it to that the first person she tells about it is someone bent on doing you harm.
Part of it is honestly a *lack of corruption* among liberals.
In the early 60s, Joe Kennedy would have hired goons to make sure nothing got out.
Cipel would have been on a plane back to Israel with a broken leg.
Elaine: two different people -- Lategano and Nathan. Lategano may or may not have had an affair with Giuliani, and was qualified for the job she took after being his press sec'y.
Nathan, to my knowledge, did not receive any public post through her relationship-now-marriage to Giuliani.
Atrios was saying that his sexuality is not "LESS of an issue," but should be "NOT an issue." By claiming that it is less of an issue the implication is that it is still an issue and thus links his sexuality with the alleged corruption. /i>
But still people on this thread will try to justify their homophobia by going “It’s not that he is GAY, it’s that…”
That is the entire point. Drop the gay references and focus on the corruption. Otherwise the statements stink of bigotry.
In the Online Newsweek Mag. there is an article " Red and Blue Churches across America". It refers to the Republican, Southern Christians, with the closed minds as "Biblical Terrorists". I have some of these very people in my life. We have frequent arguments about how Kerry cannot be considered because he is Pro-Choice. Bush is Anti-Abortion, so nothing else is important. He is without "sin". I am curious if anyone here knows what it takes to reverse Roe vs Wade. If Bush has his own personal "Bush" Supreme Court, and the wish to abolish abortion, why hasn't he tried to do something about it. I am assuming it must be a lack of support, but I don't know. I am just so puzzled how this may be the deciding factor for so many voters, and a 31 year old law has gone unchalanged by a President who is holding it in front of the Christians, like a carrot in front of a track full of rabbits. Help!
No, Judith Nathan didn't, his OTHER woman-on-the side did.
"cosmic grappler, how was the Veterans for Kerry meeting?"
no imagination
Well, let me put it this way: It reminded me of Will Rogers' saying, "I'm not a member of an organized political party. I'm a Democrat."
There were a few of us old-timers there, I took some voter registration cards, some buttons, and will knock on some doors next week.
But organized? No, not so much.
Phred:
Gov. Perry appointed his (alledged) boyfriend Secretary of State, a position that garners a lot of graft and kickbacks from licensing activities, charters, etc. In this case, it was the wife who was apparently bought off by lots of Repug petrodollars. The rumour was that she had discovered them in flagrante delicto and was ready to file for divorce until something changed her mind. Perhaps it is easier to buy off a spouse than a scheming lover. Everbody in Texas was waiting for the other shoe to fall but it hasn't . . .yet.
A big part of the problem is also the sheer lack of press in New Jersey.
Corruption goes on because nobody covers it. It took a bombshell like McGreevey's speech before anybody noticed it.
The Democratic leadership should have also noticed something was a bit off with McGreevey's appointments and called him to the carptet. But nobody did.
true dialogue overheard -
"Wow you speak good English for an Asian."
"My great grand parents were born in America."
Guess the "dumbass" was silent on the end of her response.
SWR: It's my understanding that it was about to be thrust on the table, so he was preemptively getting ahead of the story. I don't think he resigned because he's gay. I think he resigned because these allegations of corruption were starting to bubble up. So let's talk about misdeeds, not about his sexuality. That's the issue, as I think Atrios was trying to point out.
"That's part of what was so infuriating about Clinton/Lewinsky to me. You want to have an affair? Fine. None of my business. But don't do it with someone whose judgment is so poor that the one person she blabs about it to that the first person she tells about it is someone bent on doing you harm.
Adam
How do you know if my illicit lover is sincere or not? As I recall Greek mythology, Shakespeare, the Bible have a heck of a lot of betrayal in them i.e. old as dirt. Uhm, best if we not be swayed, not pass judgement when presented with these types of revelations.
Annya,
Last night on Bill Maher's show, Maureen Dowd quoted Lee Atwater as referring to fundamentalist Christians as "extra-chromosome Republicans."
And who did Lee Atwater train? Why, Karl Rove, of course.
Yep, the GOP loves them some Jesus.
McGreevey resigned saying "I'm a gay American" not "this Kushner thing is making it impossible for me to govern."
He put it on the table. /i>
And you keep hammering away at him being gay, SWR – cheap shots all of them.
Last night on Bill Maher's show, Maureen Dowd quoted Lee Atwater as referring to fundamentalist Christians as "extra-chromosome Republicans."
Sorry, that has to be the least elegant sentence I have ever written.
My apologies.
OT, but every four years I relearn just how exciting vollyball can be.
"There were a few of us old-timers there, I took some voter registration cards, some buttons, and will knock on some doors next week.
But organized? No, not so much."
cosmic grappler
Well, it's a start. I see as we have one more activist.
Since I'm unemployed I'm thinking of volunteering for the Dems in my locale. It will probably be much the same, I live in a Republican bastion in Delco Pa, fairly unorganized, but what the hey?
no imagination: agreed -- best thing to do is to never stray. If you're going to stray, however, stray with someone who has as much reason to be discreet, and as much to lose by disclosure, as you do.
But, seriously, don't stray.
SWR: It's my understanding that it was about to be thrust on the table, so he was preemptively getting ahead of the story. I don't think he resigned because he's gay. I think he resigned because these allegations of corruption were starting to bubble up. So let's talk about misdeeds, not about his sexuality. That's the issue, as I think Atrios was trying to point out.
I agree with you but McGreevey also contributed to the tabloid atmosphere of the whole mess with his press conference.
I don't think his being gay is the point either. That's why I was hammering on his appointment of Cipel as homeland security advisor and his discraceful handling of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict at Rutgers. That's why I was talking of his appointment of Santiago as the head of the state police.
I'm not the one saying he's a hero because he came out in the middle of a scandal.
Let's talk about McGreevey's appointment of Richard McCormick as President of Rutgers at 575,000/yr after he got kicked out of his 250,000/yr as the president of the University of Washington.
One of many bad appointments.
575,000/yr at a second tier university like Rutgers and 250,00/yr at the University of Washington. Something stunk there too.
Oops - You're right. It was Judy not Christine. There have been so many, it is hard to keep them straight (no pun intended).
When his wife landed a great part in play, she turned it down to help nurse him through his cancer treatments. He said, no thanks, I'll stick with Judy who is a nurse. Nice guy that.
What if, for say the next 200 years or so, we try not giving a fuck who, what, where, how, or if other people fuck? We could try it as an experiment and see if maybe it didn't lead to a whole lot fewer problems. At the end of the experiment, we can re-evaluate and, if it's not working, we can go back to acting like junior high school kids while everyone else, except maybe the English, acts like grown ups who understand that sex is a part of life like eating, breathing, shitting, sweating, singing, and dying.
Just sayin.
Adam, I must have phrased my sentiments improperly, (hmm that 3rd porter must be kickin' in). What I mean is how am I or you to judge whether we we will be betrayed by someone we love? Illicitly or not? In other words, in romance, we can, often, be deceived. Your idea that, "if you're going to stray, however, stray with someone who has as much reason to be discreet, and as much to lose by disclosure, as you do," strikes me as cold, calculating- almost like blackmail before the fact- and unworthy to be called a lapse in love, or even base lust.
Well, how it looks to me is that the Gov loved a gay Israeli dude and they had a romantic affair and all of a sudden the gay Israeli dude decided he had been harassed.
.....
i don't see what the big deal is. it's not like he gave him an important job where he could have done damage by being incompetent. it was just some bogus "homeland security" gig. do other states have "homeland security directors"?
i don't think maryland does. why would we? it's a federal agency.
no imagination: You never know how someone's going to behave after you break up. That's for sure.
My viewpoint there was from the theoretical calculating philanderer, but these are politicians we're dealing with.
You want to have an affair? Fine. None of my business. But don't do it with someone whose judgment is so poor that the one person she blabs about it to that the first person she tells about it is someone bent on doing you harm.
Pardon the tendentiousness, but...
...an affair, by definition, is illicit. By definition, there is someone you want to keep it from.
And if you are having an affair with someone who is helping you betray someone else, what guarantee do you ever have that they won't betray you?
Iago's villainy is that he betrays a man who has no reason not to trust him. Macbeth, on the other hand....
So, if you're going to have an affair...expect to get caught. Like buying stocks; if you can't afford to lose, don't buy.
There is no middle ground to it.
Meanwhile the rethugniks are gay bashing all over the place.
.....
If he had had an affair with an Israeli chick would he have had to resign is the question.
.....
"Well, how it looks to me is that the Gov loved a gay Israeli dude and they had a romantic affair and all of a sudden the gay Israeli dude decided he had been harassed."
.....
MinnieB9
The problem, for me at least, is that McGreevey appointed someone obviously unqualified for the job- patronage. Probably, he was blackmailed or was threatened with a lawsuit. Very common for both heterosexual or homosexual relationships, commonly known as revenge, I think.
If he had had an affair with an Israeli chick would he have had to resign is the question.
If it had been an Israeli woman and she started saying he raped her or sexually harassed her, people would have been more likely to believe her.
Right now, people are basically laughing at Cipel when they hear about his sexual harassment charges.
"but these are politicians we're dealing with." Adam
True, but they are human, all too human.
SWR: I'm not one of those saying he's a hero for coming out either. I'm just uncomfortable with the linkage. And I do understand that he forced the issue by making his resignation revolve around his homosexuality. It just seems that a lot of people want to make homosexuality part of the problem. The problem is alleged misdeeds, the public kind, not the private ones.
So we're in complete agreement then?
The New Journal is just your run-of-the-mill moderate newspaper serving a pretty wealthy and highly educated part of the country.
The sexuality is an issue because of the adultery. In the paper's defense, it's pretty clear that they mean the sudden bisexuality - i.e., the news that he's had an adulterous affair with a person of the same sex - and it is relevant to some because of the adultery (even many Democrats disapprove of extramarital sexual relationships) and it's relevant because it's necessary backstory for the story of the crime of hiring an unqualified lover for an important and highly-paid position. It's what makes his decision nepotism and an abuse of the public trust. He can't claim gross incompetence with the rest of the story swirling around.
All that said, Atrios is right, and the editorial is poorly worded and insensitive.
i don't think he appointed an unqualified person to a real job. i think he invented a title for him that didn't involve any actual responsibilities and stuck the words "homeland security" in the title figuring nobody would object.
no imag: That'd be the great title for a book.
SWR: I think you're generally dead-on about the idea that no one believes Cipel because he's a guy. But, then again, that statement yesterday just sounded ludicrously vague and over-the-top.
If you haven't read this yet, please do:
New York Times article that contains a lot more information than we knew previously about the McGreevey scandal
It was posted here earlier but apparently a lot of you haven't read it yet.
.
Incroyable! Grappler, while you were typing your 5:18 post, I was typing a comment at the Kevin Drum blog using that exact same song fragment! Like Wow, as Maynard might say.
"There is no middle ground to it."
Robert M. Jeffers
I see your point, but will always contend that there are shades of gray, and concede that in reality I am as likely to be betrayed for reason or not- fate, or what have you, strikes me as fickle. Good people taken down, framed for someone else's lust for power, sex, is also likely.
Robert M. Jeffers -
Yes. There is.
The thing that's striking about that NYT article is the notion that there may be some revenge involved from Kushner, his chief fundraiser, who's currently embroiled in a really scummy corruption case where he's alleged to have tried to set up potential witnesses against him with prostitutes to blackmail them into keeping quiet.
NJ Politics: it's like Rhode Island, but bigger.
So we're in complete agreement then?
rasher | Email | Homepage | 08.14.04 - 5:54 pm | #
Yes. The media will cover the sordid, tabloid angle of the story for a few days then drop it.
After that, corruption in New Jersey will go on as usual and nobody will care who the next head of homeland security for the state is.
Adam, Friedrich Nietzsche beat me to it
Well how come this Levinsohn dude wrote all the supportive letters about the qualifications of the guy, being how he had been in the Israeli Defense Force?
.....
Was he supposed to be in on this too?
.....
MinnieB9, as an Israeli, he could not be issued the proper security clearances- makes the job kinda' tough without them.
Plus, it is kind of weird, the Israeli guy apparently got appointed in January 2002 and he had resigned by August last, a year ago?
.....
Why is it coming out now?
.....
Well how come this Levinsohn dude wrote all the supportive letters about the qualifications of the guy, being how he had been in the Israeli Defense Force?
.....
Was he supposed to be in on this too?
I'd hope that the state checks references.
Most of Cipel's colleagues at the Israeli embassy say he wasn't anywhere close to being qualfied.
It would have taken a few phone calls.
@rasher:
In the midst of talking about allegations of corruption, there looms one name: Christopher Christie.
Do find out more about this person and his motivations. Please do.
All may not be what it seems.
Ha, ha, to me it looks like from what the Levinsohn dude wrote, that these NJ people thought they had themselves an expert from the Israeli Defense Force who served in Homeland Command.
now the Israelis are saying, oh no, that is all cushy stuff and it is not a security job.
Levinsohn dude wrote
But the governor's chief counsel, Paul Levinsohn, who served as McGreevey's campaign finance chairman and is a longtime confidant of the governor, was detailed when he wrote to the federal immigration service and described how Cipel was qualified to be the governor's point man on security.
As McGreevey's special adviser on issues of homeland security and public safety, Cipel's duty would be disseminating and coordinating public safety programs with other state departments and branches of government, Levinsohn wrote.
Although early news accounts of the Israeli's hiring by the state of New Jersey pointed out that Cipel, who is not an American citizen, could not qualify for federal security clearance, that was ignored in the Levinsohn description of Cipel's duties.
The Levinsohn letter said Cipel would coordinate security issues between the governor's office and the New Jersey Domestic Security Preparedness Task Force, State Police, the New Jersey National Guard, the FBI and the Armed Forces.
::::::::::::::::::::::::
The Levinsohn letter also stated that "as a naval officer in the Israel Defense Force, Mr. Cipel functioned as a special operations officer and was appointed as media adviser, disseminating data on military operations and anti-terrorism measures to the media while insuring that sensitive information was not disclosed. As such, he is well-qualified in the areas of information gathering, dissemination and sharing with other agencies."
.....
From the NYT link.
For the first time, Mr. McGreevey acknowledged that he and Mr. Cipel had had a sexual relationship for several months, ending in the early spring of 2002.
.....
Does anybody think this dude could be the Cipel dude’s latest boyfriend and all of a sudden they are going after the previous boyfriend?
.....
Mr. Lowy, who had worked as a patent and entertainment lawyer but had no known experience in criminal law. They did find one tantalizing connection: he lived in the same plush building as Mr. Cipel, on a street off Columbus Circle in Manhattan.
.....
In the midst of talking about allegations of corruption, there looms one name: Christopher Christie.
Do find out more about this person and his motivations. Please do.
I'd assume Christie was politically motivated, so you have two possibilities (or actually three):
1.) No corruption/malicious prosecution.
2.) Corruption Christie took advantage of.
3.) Corruption Christie exagerated.
Maybe 4:
4.) Corruption usually tolerated in Jersey but not this time (for political reasons). Kind of like getting fired for using the xerox machine at work.
Robert M. Jeffers -
Yes. There is.
So, you can be untrustworthy, and trust the person who is cheating with you?
And if they prove as untrustworthy as you? You have "clean hands," as equity puts it? Or do they?
Kind of hard to see how.
from a. Huffington
“Thinking that I was doing the right thing,” he said, “I forced what I thought was an acceptable reality onto myself, a reality which is layered and layered with all the, quote, 'good things,' and all the, quote, 'right things' of typical adolescent and adult behavior." It’s worth noting that McGreevey made this statement on the same day that the California Supreme Court annulled the state's 4000 same-sex marriages, raising the question: What if the world were a more welcoming place where gay people could have in their lives all the "good things" and the "right things" without having to pretend they're straight? After all, does anyone doubt that it's exponentially harder to attain elective office if you're openly gay? How else do you explain that we have no gay senators, only three gay members of Congress, and an openly gay governor of New Jersey only until Nov. 15?
Thanks again Atrios
Where do these ignorant assholes get off deciding what his sexual orientation is?
My closest friend was married to a man for six months when she was barely out of high school. She had a daughter from that marraige, and is now the grandmother of two wonderful kids. She realized in her early twenties that she was gay--the fact that she's a mother and grandmother does not make her "bisexual."
What ignorant fucking idiots. I'm so very sick of stupidity.
completely OT,
but Tropical Storm Earl has developed scarily in the last few hours-- he's forecast to follow Charley's route through the Caribbean.
the latest visible loop, for those interested: http://tinyurl.com/43us7
Julius Civitatus said:
"After a week of trying different procedures and recovery programs and thanks to the help of some friends, IT specialists, I was able to recently recover about 50 or 60% of my data. The rest was corrupted for good."
Julius, not trying to be snarky, but do us all a favor and get yourself a cheap DVD burner, and then use it at least monthly. If you don't have the discipline to backup often, then invest in another hard drive and a Gigabyte motherboard (or similar) that supports RAID. These "my livihood is my computer and I lost everything" posts are just too painful to read; kind of like "I got in a bad car wreck and I wasn't wearing my seat belt."
Isn't it amazing that Arianna has literally nothing to say about her own marriage in her blog entry?
Isn't it even MORE amazing that no one in here has mentioned that fact but me?
The "Elephant in the bedroom" is the fact that there are women -- quite a large number of women -- who consciously marry closeted gay men so they can seduce and control them.
Felicia Bernstein
Carrie Fisher
Diane Von Furstenberg
Arianna Huffington
That's just off the top of my head.
GODJESUS. Just reading Ehrenstein's comment makes us feel so...catty. It's like something Buddy Cole would reference, from the time Augusto Pinochet was tying to get a decent cuba libre in a spades game with Reza Pahlavi, Buckminster Fuller and Pierre Trudeau. (Predictably enough, Trudeau and Fuller won, but the dicks wouldn't acknowledge this.)
David E,
You would be wrong on this one - she brings up that fact in her first paragraph.
I think she focuses the rest on this week's gay-related political news - McGreevy and the CA Supreme Court ruling.
If you want her to speak more directly about the parallels between McGreevy and her situation why don't you suggest it to her?
I mean you have the credibility and the background in gay civil rights to make such a request. Unless I missed somewhere that you two dislike each other.
Her marriage has all the schizoid baggage of recent American politics – Republican, powerful wife; change of politics; loss of Seat; change of orientation; California – a bit of an opera, maybe not Verdi, but … Weil?
David E,
Go-kuro-sama - after all that hard work lying up there keeping the monitor safe and warm
Really, folks, there is more to it..
http://tinyurl.com/5a4vm
...and this is not a complete list, only the most recent.
Charles Kushner, a mega-developer, appears to be heavily involved in all of this.
http://tinyurl.com/4ncu3
"You would be wrong on this one - she brings up that fact in her first paragraph."
And then she drops it like a lead balloon.
"I think she focuses the rest on this week's gay-related political news - McGreevy and the CA Supreme Court ruling. "
And Little Mrs. "Stand by Your Man" McGreevey isn't part of this?
Why is no one -- not even MoDo -- asking her "Tell me Mrs. McGreevey, when did you first become aware of the fact that your husband was fucking an Israeli poet?"
"If you want her to speak more directly about the parallels between McGreevy and her situation why don't you suggest it to her?"
I don't run in closeted circles.
"I mean you have the credibility and the background in gay civil rights to make such a request. Unless I missed somewhere that you two dislike each other."
Well, DUH!
"Her marriage has all the schizoid baggage of recent American politics – Republican, powerful wife; change of politics; loss of Seat; change of orientation; California – a bit of an opera, maybe not Verdi, but … Weil?"
No, Wagner.
Do you know how much money she forced her ex-hubster to throw away on that Senate bid?
Just the equivalent of the GNP of a Central American banana republic, that's all!
Late to the game, but no imag, if you're in PA, you can actually maybe WORK for ACT (I'm hired on as a canvasser in OH). Pay is not great, but do it for the glory, not the $. Seeing electoral-vote.com switch OH over to Barely Kerry has just made every overheated, sore-feet day worth it.
And only somewhat OT, since we're tangentially on the subject of sex . . . Who saw Morford's column yesterday????
a snippet:
Rather, you are now, by default, a part of the resistance. You are a dissenter, an insurgent, a thief in the House of Shrub. And you -- yes, you -- sexually active free-thinking love bomb, are contributing to the glorious soiling of the moral fabric that is wrapped like a noose around the "Left Behind" crowd.
You are, in short, a moral terrorist. See? Isn't sex fun?
MMLT
now proudly classifying every battery purchase as an act of insurgent moral terrorism ;-]
>Do you know how much money she forced her ex-hubster to throw away on that Senate bid?
Ari was such a hoot when she was doing her Marie Antoinette imitation, I really did prefer her as a Republican.
When I heard she had hired someone I know as an assistant, I almost felt a pain of pity for my aquaintance....who you note I don't refer to as a friend.
but then again, with regard to Michael she has the excuse of saying "John Roger made me do it."
I know you don't run in closeted circles; I know you are not a big fan of Arianna but you're in the same state (Cali) and you're gay and she's playing her fag hag card now, I think you should see her bet and up the ante. ^o^
Arianna's climax was her almost indecipherable speech against those pesky Mexicans, since imitated by a certain similarly unintelligibly-accented Austrian.
("Ari" pretty much is owned by Ari Fleischer.)
Yes, let's not forget "John Roger"
"I know you are not a big fan of Arianna but you're in the same state (Cali) and you're gay and she's playing her fag hag card now, I think you should see her bet and up the ante. ^o^"
Which is precisely what I plan to do.
But not by speaking to her -- which in my case is as unnecessary as it is useless.
Really, folks, there is more to it..
http://tinyurl.com/5a4vm
...and this is not a complete list, only the most recent.
Charles Kushner, a mega-developer, appears to be heavily involved in all of this.
http://tinyurl.com/4ncu3
baggy | Email | Homepage | 08.14.04 - 9:07 pm
baggy, my goodness, what a link, the dude is quite a character, he makes the Gandolfinis or whatever they are called look like schoolgirls.
.....
I had no idea NJ could be so rambunctious 
.
.....
Why do you think Kushner is at the center of all this?
.....
Baggy, it still looks to me like it looks like the Lowy dude could be became the gay Israeli dude’s new buddy and they suddenly went after the ole buddy.
.....
OT: meanwhile in other news Cardinal Joey the Rat Ratzinger being his usual customary charming self and disses the addition of Turkey to the EU.
.....
Wow.
.....
>Yes, let's not forget "John Roger"
Or Jerry Brown.
Ehrenstein, you see Melville's Red Circle? This must sound idiotic, but did you recognize the second fence right away? We have an argument going, about disguising someone by having them only face particular ways, especially if they have a distinctive face in profile...
not that there is anything wrong with that.
BTW. What kind of jail time is Cipal looking at if he's guilty of trying to blackmail the governer of NJ out of 50 million dollars?
And why no indictments yet?
I'm not bisexual, and I've mothered children.
Gay is so confusing!
*wah / tear*
Oh, I get the premise now, one can't possibly be homosexual, and have parented or had coitus with the opposite sex. Once again, 2 dimensional thinking is, in fact, visible on a flat screen.
Just a side "bitch" about word choice.
I haven't seen Le Circle Rouge in quite some time, but I know Melville pulls tricks like that in hommage to Huston, who did it frequently -- most obviously in The List of Adrian Messenger
Doesn't Alain Delon look fabulous with a mustache?
Again, he was wrong to mislead his wife, assuming she didn't know. He was also wrong to hurt his family with an adulterous affair. he may even be wrong for some serious corruption.
However, this statement just doesn't work for anyone that's had to live in the closet....
That is a major character flaw that shouldn't be tolerated in our elected officials.
What about school teachers? Police officers? Appointed officials? At what point is one's chosen profession able to tolerate a person showing up as someone they really aren't? Tell me you were for real in any interview.
He would not have come out on his own if the "ship wasn't about to hit the van." No one in his position does, if they want to stay in their position. They try to take control of the situation and live within the circumstances they have. Then they make poor choices to keep that lie going.
I agree, he would be a security risk because he could be outed. This begs the question "Why not just live out?"
Not gay? Never been persecuted? Were you ever cornered by 6-8 people and literally stoned for being a lesbian as a young adult? In a day and age where people are socially stigmatized, beaten and sometimes killled for being gay, we need to question our own hearts to see what we can do to be sure others are safe.
By the way, I'm a school teacher and I have no intention of living out. Is my character corrupt? Perhaps, but not over that.
I've invested 12 years of my life in an education and career, I love my children and my subjects. I know if I come out, I am out of a job. Then there will be one less teacher in the hall that will curb hate speech (including gay hate speech) for my students.
I agree, he would be a security risk because he could be outed. This begs the question "Why not just live out?"
Well, if the stories that are coming out about the 50 million dollar extortion threat are true, then McGreevey is also the victim of a serious crime.
Cipel should do serious jail time over this. McGreevey's homosexuality (here) doesn't really matter. You could just as easily say that a politician should have kids because they could be kidnapped and held for ransom.
If Cipel had merely decide to sell the story to the National Enquirer that would have been another matter but he was after 50 million bucks. The story just gets more baroque every time you hear an update.
Re :double standard of being gay.
"But it also makes is *less likely* that Cipel's charges of rape/sexual harassment are going to be believed."
Maybe for some, but I sort of disagree. Proof that a gay person is deviant is gold right now. I see a harrassment case at least getting big political and social attention. Enough to finish his career. Many people are really into the we're immoral and deviant on all fronts notion right now.
I feel bad for his kids. Seeing your father come out must be a hard one to deal with.
Two questions.
Penalty for kidnapping a child?
Penalty for outing a gay person?
I hear your intent, but...
Penalty for outing a gay person?
Penalty for "attempted extortion."
I very clearly said "if he had merely threatened to sell his story to the National Enquirer it wouldn't have been a crime.
Last time I checked, attempting to extort 50 million dollars carried jail time.
few things compare to the penalty for kidnapping a child in most areas.
All forms of kidnapping are felonies.
White Collar Crime
from the site...
"Although there is no fixed definition of white collar crime, a number of nonviolent crimes frequently are grouped together as white collar crimes. The term "white collar crime" generally is used to describe crimes that have cheating or dishonesty as their common basis. These crimes typically are committed by professionals or entrepreneurs under cover of legitimate business activity. Such crimes may be difficult to prosecute because of their complexity. Often they carry lesser penalties than other crimes because they are not associated with violence."
I do hear you intent, but even if the extortion could pe prosecuted. It's not the same as kidnapping a child even in th eyes of the law.
I agree though, it shouldn't be a risk. But, as long as people in government are gay, and don't want it to be known, they could be extorted (outed).
Question: is the attempted extortion prosecutable now that the Governor is out? More prosecutable since he had to come out, or is it only attempted extortion?
I see actual mission accomplished "but I didn't get the money extortion. " I doubt the law will prosecute him for actual extortion. Maybe attempted.
I do hear you intent, but even if the extortion could pe prosecuted. It's not the same as kidnapping a child even in th eyes of the law.
Well of course not. But it's a part of the whole mess people aren't talking about.
If the stories true, Cipel's a criminal and should at least do some time in an American prison as well as being deported.
Question: is the attempted extortion prosecutable now that the Governor is out? More prosecutable since he had to come out, or is it only attempted extortion?
How does this work with a private citizen. You say you'll be fired as a teacher if you're outed.
What if somebody finds out about it and says "pay me half your salary or I out you?"
That's prosecutable, isn't it?
On the other hand, if he says "I'm going to out you if you don't turn to Jesus," isn't that different?
Then again, I guess your right. If no money changes hands, it's difficult to prove.
or is it only attempted extortion?
That would actually make McGreevey's press conference reflect poorly on him.
Why not go to the FBI, arrange a payoff to Cipel, then grab him when he takes the money?
Then again, Cipel was probably more clever than that. I doubt McGreevey would have given him 50 million in cash in a bag.
It would have been more like funding his medical school or however people launder these things.
But, if they can prove McGreevey hired Cipel because Cipel threatened to out him, that's a 100,000 dollar payoff, very prosecutable.
Delon is that now rare gorgeous actor with a mind.
K&Y -
Have you seen the new "Alain Delon Perfumes Online" site? Talk about defiling an icon.
I dug up some old posts on Giuliani to clear the air.
Interesting reading.
"Proof that a gay person is deviant is gold right now."
No it isn't.
With the Supreme Court ruling overtunring sodomy laws nationwide gays and lesbians are no longer a 'suspect class." To be gay or lesbian is, in and of itself, entirely neutral in the eyes of the law. This wasn't the case in the past,needless to say. Just got through looking at the new DVD of Swoon, om Kalin's brilliant film about Leopold and Loeb. What he demonstrates, as no one else has previously, is that rather than the murder of Bobby Franks, gayness itself was put on trial by the "brave" Clarence Darrow. By pathologizing their sexuality ( the least patholoical thing about them) he spared the pair from the chair -- and damned an entire generation of gays and lesbians!
"By the way, I'm a school teacher and I have no intention of living out. Is my character corrupt? Perhaps, but not over that.
I've invested 12 years of my life in an education and career, I love my children and my subjects. I know if I come out, I am out of a job. Then there will be one less teacher in the hall that will curb hate speech (including gay hate speech) for my students."
If you imagine that no one knows you're gay then you're a fool.
David's right.
Just because you don't show up with your boyfriend, do you think the kids are stupid? You don't have a wife, you aren't referring to one in class. The kids watch teachers like slaves watch their masters. If you fart too hard, they know.
They also notice if you're hitting on the new female teachers or not. Even if your collegues don't say anything, the kids know you're gay. They know it because their survival depends on it.
But if your point is that your sex life is not anyone's business, fine. I had gay teachers, they never said they were gay, but we knew.
Even in 3rd Grade
Bullshit. He's gay? Fine, no problem. But don't tell me that he did that out of some deep sense of personal courage and not a way to deflect attention from this transparent quid pro quo deal that he made with his boyfriend. These are politicians were're talking about. In New Jersey. Corruption is corruption is corruption.
And maybe... the idea wasn't for McGreevey to speak to the mainstream. Maybe it was to rally the support of progressives and those who vigorously support gay rights. After all, you can't diss this guy, because look, he's a member of a group we stand behind! Which I think is what anonymous is saying here.
I was struck by Arianna's incredible pronouncement: "It was powerful, compelling, emotional, and in sharp contrast to the pre-packaged speechifying we are so accustomed to hearing from politicians."
WHAT?!? Are you picking my--- look, in any emerging political scandal, how can anyone honestly believe that a subsequent Big Speech was NOT calculated, with a specific purpose in mind? You think he just walked out there and spoke from the heart? Fine... how may DRAFTS of that "heartfelt" expression do you think there might have been, and how many different speechwriter's "hearts" do you think might have gone into the soup, there? Maybe even a little focus testing? Thank you. He's a fucking GOVERNOR. Common sense, please!
The true test of whether any minority is truly equal is when you can at last acknowledge that a person from that group can be just as much of an asshole as a vested member of mainstream society. And when you can do so easily, without straight, white, or whatever guilt.
Not saying McGreevey is an asshole, but the speech was definitely a preemptive attack on his little buddy... for whatever reason. The latter may very well be a piece of work, himself, but it's folly to preclude the possibility that a corrupt governor might have been trying to rally the support of gay rights defenders to defend himself against legitimate charges. Which would be very... um, POLITICIAN of him.
And that reminds me of the time in the late 1960's when a famed mob family figure was under fire from the law. He decided to fight back with a big p.r. offensive, and started an "Italian-American Defamation League". The premise was that he, and ALL ITALIANS, were being targeted for the color of their skin... presumably, olive. NOT because this particular wiseguy happened to be head of a fucking crime family.
BTW, the rest of the families preferred that he shut up and knock it off. But he wouldn't; he went on to stage a big rally in Columbus Circle... where he was shot and critically wounded by mob assassins.
Wouldn't you know, I heard some Italian-American DJ go on for several minutes about what a tragedy this was for civil rights, and how we must learn, as the nearly-martyred mobster tried in his wisdom to teach us, to all get along... Jesus. Clueless.
I see a real McGreevey parallel, here.
I see a real McGreevey parallel, here. Even if Golan is, in fact, a shit, nobody here is a saint, I'm guessing. And NOBODY (as I've actually heard claimed by a lot of progressive pundits) needs to resign from public office "because they're gay"; yeah, it makes a great-looking freak flag, but nowadays, in the Northeast, that's just utter bullshit.
So let's not go into rapture because a rapidly-tanking politico walks out to a mic stand and goes, "I am a gay American!". Know what? In this town, that, and a buck and a quarter, will buy you a pretzel.
Annya (many posts above) asked about why Bush hasn't been able to overturn Roe v. Wade despite "having the Supreme Court with him". Yes, he had the SCOTUS with him for the Bush v. Gore decision, which was a highly unusual case. But currently the SCOTUS has not shown an inclination to overturn Roe v. Wade (5-6 keep, 3-4 overturn votes likely at the moment). Since justice of SCOTUS is a lifetime position, one has to die or retire before another can be appointed, and Bush has been waiting for a liberal to die/retire so he can appoint a rock-ribbed conservative like Scalia, thus tipping the current balance. If/when this happens, Roe v Wade, and the more recent sodomy case Lawrence v Texas, will be overturned in as much time as it takes for some legislature to pass a new law criminalizing abortion or gay sex, and for the challenges to reach SCOTUS.
The students may well "know" that their teacher is gay/lesbian, and the gossip around NJ political circles may have IDed the guv as gay, but that isn't the main component of the closet. Not Talking About It and Not Being Seen are the issues. Lots of straight folk are perfectly willing to ignore the obvious as long as the gay/lesbian acts invisible. It's the demand for equality, for respect and civility that bugs them.
Precisely, NancyP!
There are a lot of questions about this scandal that are on the surface and we need answers:
Why was this man introduced to McGreevey, LONG rumored to be a closeted homosexual, in Israel? Remember the New Zealand politician who said Israel is "a nation of spies and drug dealers."
Who is Golan Cipel? He apparently had NO qualifications for any kind of a job. McGreevey tried to put him in a sensitive job where he would be sharing information from the federal government and other states.
This event is TERRIBLE for gay politicians and probably for all gays. It is an astonishing example of how EASILY a gay person can be corrupted and how FAR he'll go for his sexual desires. McGreevey fell in love with this hustler and wanted to steal from the people of New Jersey, compromise our safety, lie and deceive us with TV ads portraying himself as a family man, etc. etc. Its not enough to say he was hiding his sexuality for his political career. If he was an executive in a private company he'd have been just as untrustworthy.
No it's not.
It's terrible for CLOSET CASES!
No out gay or lesbian would do such a stupid thing.
Your problem, New Jerseyan, is believing that the closet defines gayness.
It doesn't.
Was the request for the 50 million made through Cipel's lawyers? If it was, then it sounds more like a settlement offer than extortion... and illegal is magically turned legal.
The fact that he is homosexual -- or bisexual since he has fathered children
So being married with children disqualifies one from being considered homosexual? I'm sure Oscar Wilde would take great offense to that statement!
Hey it is more mportant than anyone seems to think: The scandal is not McGreevey's sexuality, but his "lover's' nationality and background. He is Israeli, ex-Navy, and probably, Israeli intel. goon. This has Karl Rove written all over it, and he is the Christian Zionist best friend of Ariel Sharon.
This ain't about anyone's sex-life. This is about a plan gone ary and covered up with extortion and cofession. McGreevey was smart to do just what he did. More will be revealed!
Oh, believe me, I know they "know" about my lack of a husband and the fact that I'm different. I'm not too girly and being a Science teacher only provides so much cover.
Well put Nancy. I have experienced discrimination on a case by case basis for being"different" and certainly everyone knows I'm gay...and it's okay as long as I don't change the heterosexual culture by being visible.
My question about when it's appropriate to not disclose personal details that was posed to another person is the pertinent point though.
Is it okay for a teacher, police officer, or any other servant of the public to have these things private? Whether it's the closet or not? Is is okay for public servants to not disclose their sexuality?
Why does a person have to announce their sexuality to be considered honest in this society? That was the comment I was addressing. And, beyond sexuality, are any of us completely "real" when we present ourselves in an interview? Just pointing out the hypocrisy.
Re: gay deviance is gold...yes, it is. In politics, it is. Two words
Wedge Issue.
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