I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
John Kerry tried to 'dodge' service in vietnam by claiming he actually fought over there.
The Church denies communion to anyone, including little girls, except cannibals, it seems.
Remember, Newt himself said the GOP was a bunch of cannibals!
"This is the body of Christ...." is what attracts these creeps.
Dont want to distract to muc, and I am sure you all know about the Sojurners, but it cannot be said often enough:
God is not a Republican or Democrat
Sign our petition and send a message to America that God is not a Republican, or a Democrat and that the Religious Right does not speak for you. Remind America that Jesus taught us to be peacemakers, advocates for the poor, and defenders of justice.
You might not agree with them on everything. but please check them out.
Sorry for canvassing here. But I think, it is a worthy cause.
Is John Kerry a good Catholic?
By Joan Chittister,OSB (National Catholic Reporter)
When I was growing up, for a Catholic to eat meat on Fridays was a "mortal sin," the kind of thing for which you went directly to hell, they told us -- no passing go, no collecting $200. But no Catholic lawmaker I know of introduced legislation to close grocery store meat departments on Fridays to protect Catholics from error or to save others from sin.
When I was growing up, Catholics were not permitted to get divorced but no Catholic legislator, as far as I can discover, opposed divorce legislation for the rest of the population.
Hysterectomies, long a moral question for the Catholic church, were unopposed by Catholic doctors, lawmakers and politicians.
Birth control legislation became the law of the land, despite a papal encyclical opposing it, and Catholic legislators accepted it.
Nor did any bishop excommunicate them for doing so.
Lots of things, in other words, that went on in this country violated Catholic discipline or Catholic conscience or Catholic spiritual practice.
But two things prevailed, simultaneously and clearly, in every case: Catholic conscience itself and respect for the conscience of other equally sincere, totally dedicated religious traditions and spiritual people for whom such things were evaluated through a different theological lens.
The point is that Catholics weren't required to do any of these things and, at the same time, others were not obstructed from doing them in cases where their own consciences or religious traditions dictated otherwise.
On the contrary: the U.S. Constitution protected a person's civil rights and honored their religious traditions at the same time. The function of legislators was to do the same. It was not to impose any particular religious code on anyone.
Now we have new questions facing the public arena and voting Catholics at large: Is John Kerry a "good Catholic" if he supports a pro-choice voting position on the abortion question, when, as a matter of fact, few other religious traditions absolutely condemn it under any and all conditions? Or, if John Kerry is not a "good Catholic" can Catholics in good conscience vote for him? And is John Kerry -- or any other Catholic politician -- to function in the U.S. government as a "good Catholic" or a "good American?"
The questions are crucial, not only for Catholics but for the future of the country and the identification of good leadership. The answer depends on what it is to be a "a good Catholic."
Pope Leo XIII, in his encyclical "Rerum Novarum," clearly thought Catholic morality had to do with establishing balance between capital and labor. John Kerry supports increasing the minimum wage and indexing it to inflation. That's a very Catholic position.
Pius XI wrote that being a good Catholic involved working against financial monopolies that restrict enterprise. Kerry intends to stop the offshore b
Hmmm. Saw a bumper sticker the other day: YOU CAN'T BE CATHOLIC AND PRO-ABORTION.
Some Catholics are intolerant, but most Catholics I know are very tolerant and don't believe in mixing politics and religion. Amen.
If anyone's interested, check out the article "My Conscience, My Vote" in this week's _America_.
Many Catholics have moved into the fundamentalist camp. There are tombstones and memorial monuments on the front lawns of many Catholic churches in Louisiana.
As a well-educated Catholic, I don't think Catholics could vote for Bush, whose policies fly in the face of every Church teaching on social justice.
And if you really want to get technical, Bush supports abortion "in cases of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is at stake".
However, the Church opposes ALL abortion, period. So no good Catholic should consider voting for Chimperor either.
Well, where the $#!@# are the Catholic surrogates who should be out in force DEFENDING KERRY??
Anybody?
As a Catholic myself, I've been pretty ashamed of my church and its heavy handed attempts to screw Kerry on this one issue. I do note, though, that the bishops as a whole did not take the position that every Catholic politician who is not noisily anti-abortion must be denied Communion, though it still pisses me off that there are some who clearly get off on exercising power over other people and trying to make themselves big on the political scene by denying Communion to a prominent Catholic for their own petty motives.
The thing about many American Catholics is that we are not fundamentalists and we do not follow all the dictates of the church. You will find very few Catholics, for instance, who don't use birth control, and yet that's supposedly a big sin. When the Pope took a position against birth control, even the pill (which could have fit in with the Catholic teaching on "natural" forms of birth control, i.e., the "rhythm method"), that's when a lot of American Catholics decided that they weren't going to follow every single word out of the Pope's mouth or the bishops' mouths, either. That was nearly forty years ago; anyone who thinks that has changed hasn't spoken to enough Catholics.
Most American Catholics are smarter than the Republicans give them credit for. Just because righty fundies think that there is no room for different points of view is no reason to suppose that the greater body of Catholics will think so.
Scorpio
Eccentricity
How could a Catholic in conscience vote for Bush? Abortions will continue under any president. But the Iraq war would not have happened -- all those deaths are on Bush's hands. The blood of innocent men, women and children and all future bloodshed because of his egregious mistakes in foreign policy.
Attaturk posted excellently in his blog a photo of LBJ at his desk anguishing about Vietnam and asked, have we ever seen any feeling from Bush on the war? I've only seen him stumblespeak about the 'loved ones' who might care about the dead. And I remember his 'feels good' fist pumping when we went to war.
I've got some indulgences for sale. Guaranteed to work! Easiest way to heaven besides being a Rethuglican.
I think this has to do with the otherwise secular nature of the democratic party. The desire to adhere to a strict separation of church and state alongside removal of other public displays of faith from the public circle see to give many the notion that democrats wish to remove god from their lives.
It's all based upon the notion that if you are indeed a true believer then you would not hesitate to put up 10-commandment displays or pictures of jesus on school walls. You would think that such a desire would be the default for anyone who has 'given their lives to jesus/god'.
The fact that democrats claim to weigh in on separating church and state gives these people the assumption that democrats value the wishes of people over the wishes of god. Something that is not right in their eyes.
That they use this as the underlying basis of their hatred seems obvious.
Pro-choice GOP'ers giving speaches at the rethug con' isn't a problem to these people because they know the differences between them and democrats of the same mindset.
To catholic republicans Arnold and Guliani may be pro-chice, but they also know they aren't pro-abortion, are pro-god, and would limit abortions if they knew they could get away with making the laws stand.
MYOB'
.
I have a simple philosophy, its the same one the church uses on me as a gay man...
Love the Catholic, hate the Catholicism.
John Kerry is Catholic and a Catholic in excellent standing with his God. The Church has not "updated" in many years, nor will they ever. John Kerry does not condone abortion. You can call him anti-abortion! Kerry is Pro-Choice for you. He honors the constitution. Church and State are two different things, except in Bush World. My brother is a Priest, and I can assure you that what they have to say, and what they know is right are a personal choice. I would bet money on many, many Bishops voting for Kerry. The Catholic Church is a wonderful Church, in that we believe God is loving, and kind. We don't stress being "reborn". We were born and will live our lives in a Godly manner, and then spend eternity in heaven. All the Catholics I know would not ever consider an abortion, but they will not judge you. I know from experiences, that most other religions can't make that statement. God will judge you. I will not. Religion is between God and yourself.
Balderdash and humbug Annya. The church seems to exist to judge and persecute gays in both the spiritual and political realms.
"...a Catholic in excellent standing with his God."
In some places one might conclude that to say this is to tempt the lord they god, which in the bible is itself a sin.
And as much as I would like to agree with you I don't think we can say this any more than we can say that George Bush is a good christian.
MYOB'
.
I have an idea. How about religions don't try to tell us how to govern and, in return, we won't let the government interfere in religion? We'll give it a catch name like "separation of church and state" and write it up in some big important document.
As a religious person, I think it would be a fair trade.
Does anyone seriously believe that a ban on abortion--even for the most trivial reasons--would extend to the Bush Twins?
Tsk, tsk. Posting a link to washingtonmonth.com while Kevin's away? Bad form, old chap.
I am a practicing Catholic. I quit believing in some of the church's positions quite a while ago but continue to believe in others and to identify myself as a member of this particular community of faith. I also recognize that my belief or lack thereof says nothing about the validity or not of any doctrine. All religions that I know anything about hold some tenets that are neither provable nor disprovable. While it can be entertaining and enlightening to discuss religious beliefs, we don't any of us KNOW who is right when we disagree; hell we could all be wrong.
I also believe very strongly in the separation of church and state as a basic principle of government. I know how badly my own church has screwed up when it's been in power. I sure as Hell don't want it or any other in that kind of position now. My religious beliefs may quite properly affect my political choices but there's no reason for anyone else to take them into account.
And, like many other Catholics, I'm voting for Kerry.
Does anyone seriously believe that a ban on abortion--even for the most trivial reasons--would extend to the Bush Twins?
Molly, NYC
Babbs The Elder would make the reservations herself if Laura didn't. What happened to that story that an abortion was arranged for one of Little Georgie's flings back in in the dark ages before Row?
Has anyone read that new book about JPII and the fascists (some old enough to not be neo) who he is so enthralled with? It's on my fall list but it might get moved up if it's as interesting as it looks.
I am a practicing Catholic. I quit believing in some of the church's positions quite a while ago but continue to believe in others and to identify myself as a member of this particular community of faith.
Many Catholics I've known, including my entire, very large, Irish Catholic family, know about the official teachings of the Vatican but ignore them when they don't match reality. Lots of parish priests opperate in the same way. They know the Vatican is spouting nonsense which the lay people will ignore while they constitute the real Catholic Church. Many of my relatives serve at mass and some are eucharistic ministers. My 86-old-mother stunned me last year when she said that the church was unrealistic and that modern contraception was the only way to avoid abortions.
Yet the men who run the show most of whom probably never so much as changed a diaper insist on upholding their platonic nonsense about sex.
Left last year and doubt I'll ever return. Even if they got another good pope, and history is stacked against that hope, they'd just elect another JPII or Pius XII in the next election. Better to make a clean break.
Oh, and yes, the Vatican is a Republican puppet. For example, JPII certainly has been cooperative with their program to murder and enslave people in Latin America. Talks a good line but watch what he does. Don't fall for the publicity.
St Peter, I hope you find a comfortable place. People are mean and narrow minded if you allow them to be. I realize that there are many places that live to judge us all. I live in Southern California, and people here are very open minded. Some churches are stricter than others, but there ane many, and anyone can find one that feels right. I lived in Texas for 18 years, and a Catholic there is told constantly, that only Baptists are allowed in heaven. I don't believe that God means that "Keep Holy the Lord's Day" needs to be in a church building anyway. It can be a mountain top or a corner of your backyard. And no one is going to tell me I am wrong, I know better than that!
The Catholic put out a press release defending Hudson...
See:
http://lloydletta.blogspot.com/2...f-
catholic.html
This press release was removed from the Catholic League website shortly after it was posted there. A few errors in fact - this was a student of Hudson's - not some random young woman he met at a bar. Fordham University when they heard about these allegations got Hudson to leave - they have "zero tolerance" for sexual harrassment.
Deal Hudson and Bill Donahue of the Catholic League have been pressuring Catholic Bishops to deny communion to Catholic politicians who disagree who support abortion rights, and gay rights.
August 19, 2004
CATHOLIC LEAGUE JOB OPENING
REQUISITE: BORN WITHOUT SIN
The National Catholic Reporter (NCR), a weekly left-wing newspaper, is now
in the business of “outing” past sexual indiscretions committed by orthodox
Catholics. To wit: it was its decision to report on a case of alleged
sexual misconduct involving orthodox Catholic publisher Deal Hudson that
led to his resignation as an adviser to the Bush campaign. Catholic League
president William Donohue addressed this issue today:
"Effective today, the Catholic League has a new requirement for all future
employees: all candidates must show proof of being immaculately conceived,
that is, they must demonstrate that they were conceived without sin.
'We fully understand that we have raised the bar very high, but in light of
the revelation that the National Catholic Reporter decided to expose a
sexual harassment charge against Deal Hudson - one that was made almost a
decade ago by a drunken female he met in a bar we at the Catholic League
are not prepared to take any chances. Unfortunately, we will not be able to
make our new requisite retroactive, for to do so would mean the Catholic
League would have to shut down. You see, unlike the puritans at the NCR, we
at the Catholic League are sinners.
"Tom Roberts, the editor of the National Catholic Reporter, cannot defend a single Catholic teaching on sexuality. I know, because I made this charge to him on national TV and he could not respond. Yet he is the same person who says the reason he decided to 'out' Deal Hudson is because Hudson had criticized Ono Ekeh, founder of Catholics for Kerry. Hudson was critical of Ekeh for defending a champion of abortion (Ekeh was subsequently fired from his job at the bishops' conference). Regarding this incident, Roberts says his newspaper 'decided he's [Hudson] such a public figure and he's been uncompromising in judging other people's behavior.' So this was the trigger that led the NCR to be uncompromising in judging Hudson’s behavior with a drunk almost a decade ago. Take note, people this is their understanding of what it means to be Catholic."
Interestly enough, there's been no comment on the National Review's Corner regarding this. I hope when Andrew Sullivan returns from vacati
I hate to disappoint any neo-Know-Nothings who like to bash Catholicism, but as John Allen of the (leftist) National Catholic Reporter has pointed out, he has witnessed old JPII himself give communion to pro-choice Italian politicians.
This is a classic American news story involving 1) lazy journalists 2)sex and 3) underlying anti-Catholic bigotry that goes back to our founding as a country.
For more on this, read Tim Rutten, the religion correspondent for the LA Times.
save us from the hypocrites
save us from the hypocrites
save us from the hypocrites
save us from the hypocrites
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