I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Frist.
Hey, but at least we've got the grown-ups charge, right Senator Sessions?
"President Bush's cabinet nominees are the finest group of cabinet nominees I believe we have seen in the last 100 years. They are extraordinary men and women of accomplishment and achievement. They are grownups."
At Democratic Underground, if you type in "Israeli" and "spy" you are immediately and permanently banned.
I hope this isn't true here, too.
Juan Cole has an excellent explanation of the whole problem.
http://www.juancole.com/
Pretty scary shit for those who bother to read the whole article.
This stands out
"AIPAC currently has a project to shut up academics such as myself, the same way it has shut up Congress, through congressional legislation mandating "balance" (i.e. pro-Likud stances) in Middle East programs at American Universities. How long the US public will allow itself to be spied on and pushed around like this is a big question. And, with the rise of international terrorism targeting the US in part over these issues, the fate of the country hangs in the balance."
I can see why it's a sensitive issue. People sympathetic, for whatever reason, to the perpetrator will naturally see it as an issue of anti-semitism.
They're wrong, but it's easy to see it that way if doing so will feel good. And to be sure, it's not as bad as spying for a hostile government. But it's still pretty damn bad. I'm sure we share a lot of information with the Israelis. And there are guys who decide what we will and won't share. And if you're not one of those guys, and you arrogate to yourself the right to make that decision, look the hell out.
For those really interested google up Israeli art students.
Yes, Israel is our friend.
WHAT? People in our government who would spy for THEONLYDEMOCRACYINTHEMIDDLE EAST? I'm shocked - shocked, I tell you - shocked!
Ohhhhhh....(call me slow this morning; no coffee) ya mean someone passed on info about our next "pre-empptive" plans? My hat is glowing.
Forget it. It's nothing compared to this and Israel will continue to get anyway with everything it does. Just forget it.
Stupid typo.
This spy story just won't float.
There's no Clinton cock or deep throat.
It needs added spice
To cut the ice.
The exception would be a Swift boat.
Take Cameron, for instance. The first of, no doubt, many folks who'll express the belief that spying for a friendly nation is harmless.
It's not, of course. No friendly government is all THAT friendly. They'll use the information to pursue their interests, and those interests won't entirely coincide with ours. Of the information that Pollard passed to the Israelis, for instance, some was sold/traded to the Soviets.
Friendly nations or no, it's a man's game and they throw elbows out there.
Laertes,
Quite the contrary - my comments were sarcastic. In spying, there's no such thing as a friendly nation. While Jonathan Pollard may be a hero in Israel, he's never going to get out of prison. Why? 'Cause our good friends the Israelis took the info he sent them and sold it to the Chinese, who aren't our friends no matter how much of their stuff we buy and no matter how many of our businesses move there.
Note: I think Cameron was being sarcastic...
Okay, I don't get it. I admit it. I flunked the only politics course I ever took (25 years ago), so I am sometimes slow to connect the dots. But I am undaunted in my interest! Is the story that the guy was spying, or that he was spying for Israel, or that he was passing on hot info. about Iran, or that he may not have been acting alone, or...all of the above? Could someone please shed some light, and try not to make TOO much fun of me in the process of doing so? 
Thanks
Apologies for missing the sarcasm.
OK...so...who or what prompted the Justice Dept/FBI to investigate in the first place?
OK...so...who or what prompted the Justice Dept/FBI to investigate in the first place?
The Bush administration pissed off George Tenet. This is the beginning of the backlash from four years of spitting in the face of the FBI/CIA.
Oh, well, I'm sure they'll sort this one out just as soon as Rumsfeld gets around to reading the reports of the investigations into Abu Ghraib that he first comments on:
But on Thursday, in an interview with a radio station in Phoenix, Mr. Rumsfeld, who was traveling outside Washington this week, said, "I have not seen anything thus far that says that the people abused were abused in the process of interrogating them or for interrogation purposes." A transcript of the interview was posted on the Pentagon's Web site on Friday. Mr. Rumsfeld repeated the assertion a few hours later at a news conference in Phoenix, adding that "all of the press, all of the television thus far that tried to link the abuse that took place to interrogation techniques in Iraq has not yet been demonstrated." After an aide slipped him a note during the news conference, however, Mr. Rumsfeld corrected himself, noting that an inquiry by three Army generals had, in fact, found "two or three" cases of abuse during interrogations or the interrogations process. In fact, however, the Army inquiry found that 13 of 44 instances of abuse involved interrogations or the interrogation process, an Army spokeswoman said. The report itself explicitly describes the extent to which each abuse involved interrogations.
Absolute and confident incompetence. The hallmark of this Administration.
Simply amazing. Gee, have we taken Chalabi into custofy on those spying charges? Have we set a court date on that?
Dammit. I put the link in that last post. Where'd it go?
It's from The New York Times.
I'm sick to death of the Likud Party and it's infleuence over U.S. foreign policy. This undue influence directly threatens our security and puts a bullseye on us as targets for terrorism.
Thank God the adults are in charge.
Now, can we get back to Kerry in Cambodia??? Stuff that really matters in Time of Change?
This is lead story now in BBC and Aljazeera on the web.
This story's compelling (must be the tectonic plates story Josh Marshall was teasing us with), but it's so complicated. Interesting timing, though ~ right before the big bad convention. I wonder if it will damage Bush?
A Spy is a spy. If we weren't willing to give this info when they asked, then they should not have had it.
Anyone involved in this should be arrested. If this info found it's way into enemy hands, they should be executed. Passing on "hot" info is still spying. Since it says he passed information through a pro-israeli lobby, no he wasn't acting alone.
A lot of people are getting more than a little tired of Americans who seem to favor Israel OVER America. Support for Israel is one thing, they aren't a well behaved nation, but there are worse. However, a lot of people would allow this man to go free because they see Israel and America as the same entity. The biggest problem we have in the world, the one that causes us the most head-aches; is that so does everyone else.
That's the question, littlesky. Did the FBI stumble across this due to the Plame investigation, or is the CIA driving this, getting some of their own back, after taking the blame for faulty pre-war intelligence?
Who leaked this and why was it done late Friday before convention week?
This is obviously much bigger than the leakers are making it sound.
I'm fiercely pro-Israel. Though I'm generally a conventional Democrat, I'm frequently far to the "right" of my Republican friends on Israel.
Even so, this pisses me off and I hope they throw the book at the guy. If you think there's important information that we ought to be sharing with Israel that we're not, make your case to the guys who make that decision. You don't get to take matters into your own hands just because some decisions above your pay grade didn't go your way.
I'm always thrilled to see the Bush administration's idiocy come home to roost, and I assume this story would only get worse.
However...
Based on what little has been said, I wonder if the words "spy" and "spying" really are correct here. It sounds so far more like a very stupid (and illegal) leak. The guy apparently showed an Israeli lobbying group classified information -- that's obviously illegal.
But has anyone suggested he was in the pay of Israel? To me, there's a difference between sharing classified information and spying. Spying implies that you're actively working for another country.
The culprit is likely to respond that he never had any contact with any Israeli government officials or agents to discuss gathering this information. Rather, he will likely say he was using the only means he knew of pushing along the administration's policies. Bad judgement, worthy of jail time -- but that's not "spying" as I understand it.
Maybe there's more to this, and this will be revealed as spying. But it sounds more in the category of an illegal leak to me, until it's shown he was working for Israel, as opposed to independently trying to aid it.
I say this as a lifelong Democrat who will vote for Kerry. Not a troll. The words just seem to exceed the evidence presented -- so far. If more evidence emerges, I'll gladly change my opinion, and if it leads to Bush getting voted out, all the better.
'"AIPAC currently has a project to shut up academics such as myself, the same way it has shut up Congress, through congressional legislation mandating "balance" (i.e. pro-Likud stances) in Middle East programs at American Universities. ..."
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 08.28.04 - 8:56 am | #'
I wonder if any of that AIPAC money has found it's way into the paws of the College Republicans. Their lates spate of whining over flunking courses (and blaming it on overly liberal faculty) seems to fit into the same mold as AIPAC's calls for what they (in Orwellian terms) call balance.
Actually, they might not "throw the book" at the guy -- because they just may be using him to reel in much bigger fish. He morphs from mole to stool pigeon. At least that's how I'm interpreting the CNN article that said "officials" say they aren't sure if they will prosecute.
If this is a classic style investigation, you get the little guy, then get him to rat on others.
"HAT? People in our government who would spy for THEONLYDEMOCRACYINTHEMIDDLE EAST? I'm shocked - shocked, I tell you - shocked!
Cameron | Email | Homepage | 08.28.04 - 8:58 am | #"
Passing classified intelligence information to Israeli's can't be justified on any grounds. If you are passing secrets to a foriegn country without authorization, you are commiting treason.
Once the secrets are passed to Israel, or any other country, you immediately lose control over who the other country then passes the information to. The danger of this multiplies quite enormously when the person doing the passing is doing it without authorization.
I don't think it can be stressed enough: Israel has its own loyalties and its own interests. These are not remotely the same as ours.
They are not an enemy, but they are an independent country who has shown a strong willingness to act in its own interest against our own.
This is not anit-semitism. It is realism.
\
Julian Borger put together the composite picture with connections over a yr ago. What I'm seeing now is alot of spinning, obfuscation, and attempted cover up with deflection of blame from key players ( you know who )
The spies who pushed for war
Julian Borger reports on the shadow rightwing intelligence network set up in Washington to second-guess the CIA and deliver a justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force.
Excerpts:
Office of Special Plans (OSP), was set up by the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld and run by Doug Feith. Wolfowitz has a key role in coordinating.
The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise.
"None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms.
The exchange of information continued a long-standing relationship Mr Feith and other Washington neo-conservatives had with Israel's Likud party.
would you sit down to a poker table if you knew (not suspected....KNEW) the dealer was passing cards to your opponent under the table? the last vestiges of our reputation as a possible honest broker of a middle east peace plan just went swirling down the shitter.
BTW, that's the best case scenario (if the individual involved acted alone). personally, i believe the neocon groupthink/dittohead mentality would not allow individual action such as this unless it was authorized, either explicitly or tacitly. what are woodward and bernstein doing these days?
Exactly - it almost has to be part of something larger. It's not as if Justice or the FBI just decided to investigate possible spying within the Pentagon, something or someone sparked it, and it's bound to be an offshoot of something larger.
Larry Johnson brought up both the Niger forgeries and Plame last night, and I know Rockefeller got the FBI to investigate the Niger forgeries.
If the Pentagon has only known about this for a few days, it stands to reason that they leaked this little gem - to get out in front of it, and/or to cut it out of a larger investigation that they don't want to be tied into.
I guess the thing to do is to watch who says what, who they say it to, and what direction they try to push the story.
Let me say again -- I think there's a difference between illegally sharing classified information and actively "spying." Either way, people need to go to jail. I just don't see evidence (yet) that this meets any dictionary definition of spying. It's sloppy and maybe even treasonous... But (so far) isn't shown to be spying. If he was in the pay of a foreign power, then he's a spy in my book.
(By the way, I think Rumsfeld was dead wrong to use semantics to call the torture at Abu Ghraib "abuse." The evidence was clear that it was torture, and he should be frog-marched to Guantanamo in an orange jumpsuit.)
With the example of Pollard in jail for 20 years and counting, this spy (Franklin?) is going to be under a lot of pressure to sing in exchange for seeing daylight again in his lifetime.
This could roll up every neoconvict in office.
All Bush needs to do is to tell Sharon---as he did so effectively during the wholesale West Bank destruction---don't do it anymore.
That should stop it once and for all.
Hudson,
"But has anyone suggested he was in the pay of Israel? To me, there's a difference between sharing classified information and spying. Spying implies that you're actively working for another country."
There might be an argument that there is a distinction between spying and sharing classified information but it does not rest on the payment question. I can't recall the source but I remember some comments in the context of Cold War spies that spies are either financially or ideologically motivated. The preference has always been for ideological commitment as the intensity of the commitment generally doesn't waiver.
Considering that Pollard went to jail for twenty years, I'm assuming Diplomatic Immunity doesn't work here.
Would someone explain "Diplomatic Immunity" and where it falls in a situation like this.
I was just thinking more about this...
The spies who pushed for war
Julian Borger put together the composite picture with connections over a yr ago. What I'm seeing now is alot of spinning, obfuscation, and attempted cover up with deflection of blame from key players ( you know who )
then I just read this
Neocon Musings
..."The Commission blamed the CIA for "intelligence failures," you chuckle, knowing full well that many in the CIA, which you detest for its liberal biases and cowardice, were unwilling to sign off on the WMD reports and the al-Qaeda connection. They haven't looked closely at the Office of Special Plans, and aren't likely to under our man Goss".
And now am even more sickened by these neocons arrogance.
It will be outrageous if these SOB's remain in power positions.
You didn't quote the part of the WaPo story linking Franklin to the Rohde/Ghorbanifar adventure in Italy, late 2001. Ledeen says Ghorbanifar was peddling a story about Iraq uranium going to Iran.
Sometimes, he says enriched uranium.
Diplomatic immunity covers foreign diplomats, not US government employees. It has no application here.
Who do you think penetrated deeper and wider, Israel or the radical Arabs behind Norquist? Whacking the Undersecretary for Policy takes an arrow deep into DOD Holy of Holies...but, then, its just like tavern prophets said after 911; the whole upper tier of the American establishment has been corrupted and compromised; an day gots to go...oddly, would it have worked to America's favor if the 911 terrorists had not been successful in NY but had, by whacking some of these compromised wonks and pols, in Virginia and DC?
isn't the timing of these revelations curious? rummy and the chimp have only three choices: admit, deny or ignore. they have to pick one, and they have to do it during the repugnican convention. (1.) they aren't going to admit. (2.) they dare not deny because they don't know which smoking gun might be waved under their nose.
this leaves (3.) ignore. and for all its many faults, i like to think of the SCUM as being a lot like the glenn close character in fatal attraction ("I will not be ignored!)
oh, this is gonna be rich!
What's behind all this is the great Israeli fear of a change in US policy toward the middle east.
What Israel knows and the American congress and Bush are afraid to say (because of Aipac money) is that arab hatred of the West is a direct response to 50 years of the United States's being pro-Israel.
A policy change toward terror that would harm Israeli needs doesn't seem imminent yet; but following a nuclear explosion in a major American city and the killing of a half-million---should it ever come to that---who knows?
isn't the timing of these revelations curious? rummy and the chimp have only three choices: admit, deny or ignore. they have to pick one, and they have to do it during the repugnican convention. (1.) they aren't going to admit. (2.) they dare not deny because they don't know which smoking gun might be waved under their nose.
this leaves (3.) ignore. and for all its many faults, i like to think of the SCUM as being a lot like the glenn close character in fatal attraction ("I will not be ignored!)
oh, this is gonna be rich!
Stop all U.S. assistance to the state of Israel. No more tax dollars, no more weapons, and no more control of the U.S. security apparatus. Israel is surely an enemy, as friends do not spy on one another. Will we rhetorically attack Israel now the way we did France eighteen months ago? France did not trick poor white, black and Hispanic Christian boys and girls into fighting a dirty war for them. 972 U.S. soldiers have died for the state of Israel now. When will the people of the U.S. wake up? Never with the current constitution of the media.
Israel is surely an enemy, as friends do not spy on one another.
Ridiculous. Friends spy on one another all the time. This'll embarass the Israelis, and probably give us a little extra leverage with them, but only a knee-jerk anti-Israel jackhole would suggest that we overreact like that.
Mossad agents were just caught trying to fake IDs in Australia. The US has already arrested Israel spies before. Israel commits all worst of human rights violations and the US always bails them out in the UN. They have tons of nukes but refuse to tell the world thus making them a the #1 goto country if you want to buy a nuke, like South Africa tried to. Their nuclear whistleblower Vanunu spent years in solitary and cannot leave Israel. Their Likud party is so far to the right they are practically a militant theocracy. Israel gets more aid from the US than anyone else, including "loans" that never had to be repaid.
Some ally. Of course, once you criticize the nation of Israel, the defenders of all things Israel will be quick to brand you an anti-semite.
Would someone explain "Diplomatic Immunity" and where it falls in a situation like this.
Diplomatic immunity is for foreign diplomats in the US and for US diplomats on foreign soil, against prosecution. It is an international convention and does not apply for US citizens (even diplomats) in the US.
Mossad agents were just caught trying to fake IDs in Australia.
It was New Zealand, no?
Hart -- Hope you're right. Bush's DoD has taken 3 huge hits: two reports on Abu Ghraib that trace responsibility, if not accountability, to gross management flaws as high as Rumsfeld; Rummy's office has also admitted to "contact" with "soldier of fortune" Jack Idema, on trial in Afghanistan for running a "private" torture prison; and now this.
If the press doesn't press on this, even the thin patina of Constitutional democracy has washed away.
Spying by an American citizen, in a time of war, is treason, yes?
The penalty for treason is death, yes?
And the War President will see to it that traitors are executed, yes?
Just asking.
And if you read things like Imperial Hubris, the author makes the point that one reason for the Islamic terrorism against the United States has to do with the U.S. support for Israel's policies vis a vis the Palestinians. The author of Imperial Hubris says that the information he relies on for his analysis is all in public sources, nothing confidential, so I'm assuming that high level officials in Israel are also aware of this. It supplies a motive, if nothing else.
And whether you call it spying or leaking, the divulging of confidential information to another country is wrong and illegal and possibly treasonous (the reason I hedge on treason is because the Constitution's definition is fairly explicit and fairly narrow).
If, as Laura Rozen's article seems to imply, the man was frustrated at the lack of US attention to his information, we have (if you believe this) yet another instance where the neocon/Iran-Contra mentality comes into play: if you don't like what you're legally supposed to be doing, don't try to change the law, just do what you want anyway and lie about it later.
Neocon Musings ( see link above )
"These must be strange days to be a neoconservative," writes Martin Sieff in a recent Salon piece, "caught between exultant hope and wild terror; utterly discredited, yet still securely in power; proven totally wrong on Iraq, yet still determined to believe against all odds that one more wild throw of the dice will recoup all." Sieff notes that despite setbacks, all the key neocons in the administration retain their posts, and they remain determined to realize their bold world-changing agenda. While many predict their imminent demise, and while I would very much like to believe them, I agree with Sieff that the neocons are fiercely determined, have great staying power, and remain highly dangerous to the world---most immediately, to Iran and Syria.
* * * * *
So let us try to get into the mind of the neocon. Let's say you're a Straussian ideologue assessing the current status of the broad plan that Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser drew up for the Likud government in Israel ten years ago. (That's the game plan involving "removing Saddam Hussein from power," "rolling back" Syria, and "confronting" Iran. It echoes in the September 2000 "Rebuilding America's Defenses" report from the neocon Project for a New American Century, which refers to defense of "the homeland," conflates Iraq, Iran and North Korea as threats to that homeland, calls for a shift in U.S. forces from west to southeastern Europe and southeast Asia and otherwise anticipates Bush policy.)
You sit at your desk in your book-lined office, buried in your sophisticated, nuanced thoughts, honed as much by academe as by the Pentagon and the corridors of political power. You have a vision of the world as it should be, which the fate of political appointment has allowed you and your fellows to realize in considerable part so far.
New U.S. bases dot Central Asia for the first time, and more of them now guard our interests along the Arabian littoral, outside the nervous, unwelcoming Saudi kingdom which has long since soured on our presence. Saddam Hussein is overthrown, the new regime fully dependent on our support. The Iraqi people may not like the regime, but that is not really the issue; people unfamiliar with democracy do not understand what sort of government they really need. The same goes for Afghanistan. It will take decades of wise policy to remake these Muslims.
To the extent that Iraqi oil is delivered, it is delivered courtesy of American power. The world must respect that, in this New American Century. In a region of independent rogue states unaligned with major powers, Iraq and Afghanistan are now firmly in our camp. There is much to do to consolidate gains, and not all has gone well. No, indeed much has gone badly wrong. We miscalculated about the oil, the sabotage problem. But there are ways to use the unexpected to maintain
Diplomatic immunity covers foreign diplomats, not US government employees.
emd - 10:35 am
In the movies agents often have the cover of journalist, import-export, etc. Technically not "Diplomats". Are they covered?
... does not apply for US citizens (even diplomats) in the US.
ecoast - 10:45 am
What about dual citizenship, American - Israeli?
the general course: regime change from the Khyber Pass to the borders of Israel (wherever those borders are ultimately fixed). The attainment of geopolitical control over that vast region. The oil, other resources, markets. Leverage against traditional allies in Europe and Japan, and against oil-thirsty, rising China. The historic opportunity to manipulate, mold, or diminish local Islamic extremisms while fostering---by any means necessary---love of the United States. Or if not that, fear of the U.S. and its allies.
It is better to be feared than loved.
Staring out the window at the illuminated monuments to the great---your predecessors---you reflect on how rare your genius is. You smile smugly at the foolishness of the masses, the born-agains, the blessedly manipulated. You cannot tell the president that they are special precisely because they are so dumb; to do that would be to tell your boss that he too, is a gullible fool. But concealing that from him and them is essential to the project. Yes, there are risks. The press may yet make trouble, although few aside from Seymour Hersh have threatened us so far, and most reporters won't attack us lest they get slapped with the defamation charge... always so useful! In any case we know what the president reads, and how little he understands of what he reads. Writers won't turn him against us, unless the wrong people explain to him what they wrote.
Yes, we are under attack, various among us, for various reasons. So many hate us and our mission, which in their naiveté they cannot understand. Joseph Wilson, pitting his plebian version of truth against the greater good our deceptions produce, editorialized against our Niger uranium story. That made his CIA wife fair game, definitely. But her outing could hurt us if Bulldog Fitzgerald digs too deep. Yes, a cause for concern in the VP's office, and for all of us if there's an indictment. Business dealings have felled one of us, although he served the cause well before stepping down. And our patrons, too, may tread on unsteady ground. More than one Halliburton scandal will likely unfold in the coming weeks; a Parisian court may attack the keystone himself.
D'Amato's call may continue to resonate, and if it does, where will we be? Would Giuliani or McCain stay the course and keep us on? Would Powell ruin everything, and turn the president against us?
The man in the Oval Office is good and decent, but oh, so impressionable. So far this has worked for us. But if he listens to the wrong people, we suffer. More torture reports will air, and our base, uneasily comfortable with what they have seen so far of Abu Ghraib, may wince at what will come out soon. Hersh has mentioned child-rape in the prison, in the presence of mothers He doesn't mention that experience has shown that these methods, making use of Arab sexual shame, give us information that saves our troops' lives!
You sigh deeply. We seem to be keeping the lid on, but yes, this m
You brighten momentarily, sipping your cognac. The Commission blamed the CIA for "intelligence failures," you chuckle, knowing full well that many in the CIA, which you detest for its liberal biases and cowardice, were unwilling to sign off on the WMD reports and the al-Qaeda connection. They haven't looked closely at the Office of Special Plans, and aren't likely to under our man Goss. There must be no public discussion of Special Plans, and the background of its staff! Anyway, the rabble all these as details as just that---complicated and confusing bits of information---not shocking revelations about our method. Only the small minority who really follow the news have been influenced by O'Neill those traitors. It helps that Kerry says he too would have gone to war, too, regardless of the explanation used. We may continue to raise the issue of al-Qaeda links as an unresolved one, knowing that--- operational connection or no--- for the average American, an Arab is an Arab and that's connection enough. The absence of weapons of mass destruction bothers some, but we've finessed this well to date by focusing on the future, not the past, and on the positive: the overthrow of a dictator. Americans don't like dictators, when they're told clearly who the dictators are, and that they're anti-American. And anti-Americans like Michael Moore can be neutralized through careful use of our ties to media, who've depicted him as a wild-eyed radical.
You pace your office, alone with your musings. Sure, the Iraqis want us out, immediately. Al-Sadr's popularity grows. The Sunni and Shiite insurgencies might unite, despite our best efforts. The oil pipelines are so routinely sabotaged that Iraqi production has greatly declined since we invaded, pushing up the price of oil and gas globally. European allies who didn't back the war continue to resist inclusion in the project. Our wavering allies are withdrawing from the fray. They will all understand soon enough how unwise it was to break ranks with us at this time. The IAEC, and the Europeans, aren't helping on Iran, downplaying the nuclear threat we need to justify action. But between us and our friends, we'll deal with the reactors, the mullahs, and the Hizbollah connection
It'd be best to stabilize Iraq first, under Allawi. Strong man, resolute---he can crack down. But even if disorder continues, we can move on with the plan. We got through the Syria Accountability Act. Congress overwhelmingly supports regime change in Iran---no dissent about that! None! We can even use Chalabi's disgrace in favor of our plans, by blaming any "intelligence failings" on Iranian disinformation! We can encourage our friends in the region to take actions that we cannot. Even if, God forbid, we fall from power, we'll leave Sen. Kerry with a fait accompli he won't be able to easily reverse. Anyway he's saying all the right things about Israel, the wall, the Palestinians, and calling for more pressure on Saudi A
We leave you there, neocon, at the peak of your power, in your tortured, amoral, self-righteous, unapologetic, dangerous thoughts. We leave you confidant that the dead (whose numbers you tend to underestimate) have perished in the noblest of causes-which, unfortunately, you cannot openly explicate because people just wouldn't understand. We leave you caught, as Sieff suggests, between hope and terror, discredited, yet still eager to roll your dice in a high-stakes game featuring whole countries as the tantalizing prize. We leave you impervious to the blood you've shed, eager for more. Strange days indeed, evil days that like all else will pass, whether or not you yourself are appropriately punished.
Gary Leupp is Professor of History at Tufts University, and Adjunct Professor of Comparative Religion. He is the author of Servants, Shophands and Laborers in in the Cities of Tokugawa Japan; Male Colors: The Construction of Homosexuality in Tokugawa Japan; and Interracial Intimacy in Japan: Western Men and Japanese Women, 1543-1900. He is also a contributor to CounterPunch's merciless chronicle of the wars on Iraq, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia, Imperial Crusades.
Laura Rozen's riveting work on this is here:
http://tinyurl.com/4vow9
Hart -- Hope you're right. Bush's DoD has taken 3 huge hits: two reports on Abu Ghraib that trace responsibility, if not accountability, to gross management flaws as high as Rumsfeld; Rummy's office has also admitted to "contact" with "soldier of fortune" Jack Idema, on trial in Afghanistan for running a "private" torture prison; and now this.
cs - 10:47 am
If responsibility-accountability does go all the way up, why were lawyers close to the President even thinking about whether the rules of the Geneva Convention applied?
Behind the scenes at the New York Times
Bureau Manager: Anything to it?
Reporter: It's not exactly The Spy Who Came in from the Cold.
Bureau Manager: No chance of this being another Rosenberg case?
Reporter: Probably not.
Bureau Manager: Alright, I'll tell New York to put it on page 13.
does = doesn't
This doesn't make any sense. First, this is supposidly the tectonic plate story JMM had talked about a while back(and why did he leak he was working on a huge story?). Then, since yesterday when it breaks, not a single peep outta him, yet his cohort, Rozen, writes a column.
The Rozen column shows she's being horribly spun, or at least she's reporting how she's being spun and being coy about it....is she a patsy?
Skallas: "Israel commits all worst of human rights violations and the US always bails them out in the UN."
Israel, while far from perfect, isn't even in the running for champion abuser of human rights. (The list of nations that are bigger abusers would begin with many of their neighbors, and might arguably include the US.)
"They have tons of nukes but refuse to tell the world thus making them a the #1 goto country if you want to buy a nuke, like South Africa tried to."
Ridiculous on the face of it. Accepting arguendo that Israel still hasn't officially acknowledged that they have nukes, how does this constitute a unique proliferation threat? Since the first nuke to fall into the hands of terrorists surely explodes in Tel Aviv the next day, I expect that no nation on Earth takes better care of their warheads than Israel.
Their Likud party is so far to the right they are practically a
militant theocracy.
And our domestic right-wing party is anything to be proud of? There are right-wing nutjobs everywhere, and sometimes they even win elections in democracies. C'est la vie.
Israel gets more aid from the US than anyone else, including "loans" that never had to be repaid.
We give money to lots of nations. Most of these are far less deserving than Israel.
Some ally. Of course, once you criticize the nation of Israel, the defenders of all things Israel will be quick to brand you an anti-semite
Some might, but that's the old "some say" meme that Fox news loves so much. Sad to see it deployed on, presumably, the left as well.
The fact is, there are anti-semites, and they really hate Israel. There are any number of people who think that American support of Israel is counter to American interests, and this belief doesn't neccesarily indicate an anti-semite.
The way to tell the difference is by looking for flecks of foam around the lips, or a simple lack of perspective. A stated belief, for instance, that Israel is the world's leading human-rights abuser would be a significant clue that the speaker's actual agenda isn't human rights at all, and then anti-semitism presents itself as the next likely explanation.
But has anyone suggested he was in the pay of Israel? To me, there's a difference between sharing classified information and spying. Spying implies that you're actively working for another country.
I think the critical quote (from the CBS story) viz. this point is, "The FBI investigation, headed up by Dave Szady, has involved wiretaps, undercover surveillance and photography that CBS News was told document the passing of classified information from the mole, to the men at AIPAC, and on to the Israelis."
I presume "Israelis" in this case refers to a government actor, not just someone in possession of an Israeli passport. That's the difference between leaking and espionage, right there.
One more reason for Kerry to call again for Rummie's departure in a week or so?
If it comes out that neocons in the Bush administration (Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Abrahms...) have been conspiring with Israel's rightwing government to trick us into wars (Iraq so far, Iran next), this will be the biggest scandal DC has ever seen...and that's what it looks like now.
I'm just curious how our old pals at AIPAC managed to issue a statement, expressing their "outrage" (at being caught spying on the United States, but hey), and not mention the word "ANTI-SEMITISM".
They're slipping!
Christian boys and girls
Shut the fuck up. Not every soldier who's died was xian. Some were jewish. Some were wiccan. Some were atheists.
I am SO goddamn sick and tired of the false fucking meme that everyone in American is a fucking xian. They're not.
Hecate,
I love you.
"If it comes out that neocons in the Bush administration (Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Abrahms...) have been conspiring with Israel's rightwing government to trick us into wars (Iraq so far, Iran next), this will be the biggest scandal DC has ever seen...and that's what it looks like now."
Sid, that much has been OBVIOUS for 2 years now.
>If it comes out that neocons in the Bush administration (Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Abrahms...) have been conspiring with Israel's rightwing government
If? If? If? I think it's pretty clear to everyone who has been paying attention that the neocons are in bed with Likud. This story implies that someone has tape/video/documents of neocon/Likud pillowtalk.
Kerry, seeing this coming, called for rummy's departure, knowing that since he did "demand it", Bush couldn't let it happen cause it would make Kerry look sooo much smarter to voters.
MLJ -- Well taken and informative points. We'll see what develops.
I would hardly be shocked if this did prove to be full-fledged spying, either by the person fingered by WaPo, or someone they're trying to flush out. I guess my point is, let's not hand the Republicans an easy way to distract from the issue by calling this by the wrong name, until we know it's really spying.
A MUST READ if you want to know the REAL inside story of the Neocons with most of the angles.
Neocon Musings
No other writer - I repeat no other writer - has put together an equivalent that's so revealing yet so disturbing !
I'M NOT RELATED TO HIM!
"'They have tons of nukes but refuse to tell the world thus making them a the #1 goto country if you want to buy a nuke, like South Africa tried to.'
Ridiculous on the face of it. Accepting arguendo that Israel still hasn't officially acknowledged that they have nukes, how does this constitute a unique proliferation threat? Since the first nuke to fall into the hands of terrorists surely explodes in Tel Aviv the next day, I expect that no nation on Earth takes better care of their warheads than Israel.
'Their Likud party is so far to the right they are practically a
militant theocracy.'
And our domestic right-wing party is anything to be proud of? There are right-wing nutjobs everywhere, and sometimes they even win elections in democracies. C'est la vie.
'Israel gets more aid from the US than anyone else, including "loans" that never had to be repaid.'
We give money to lots of nations. Most of these are far less deserving than Israel."
Laertes (Greek Jew?), your replies are not arguments, despite your pretension to Latin forensics ("arguendo"). "It happens here too!" is not an argument, nor is an unsupported assertion that Israel is more deserving of aid than other nations we give money to. Give it a rest; you sound stupid.
I agree with Laertes. I tend to be pro-Israel, but not pro-Likud. Israel has not always behaved well, but the same can be said of many another nation. Criticize Israel for what it's done wrong, but don't pretend it's the worst nation that exists or ever has existed.
That said, I think they should lock up the guy and throw away the key. I thought Jonathan Pollard was a "fair cop," as the Brits say, because he had no call to pass secrets on to any other country, no matter how friendly, and I say the same of this guy. The crime lies in the passing of secrets, and any payment or quid pro quo would merely be icing on the cake.
BTW, I always thought that, to the extent any "behind the scenes" pressure was involved in the Marc Rich pardon, it wasn't so much Denise Rich's campaign donations as it was Ehud Barak's importunities. Clinton wanted to do something for Barak, especially as he couldn't pardon Pollard.
Also BTW, even though I tend to be pro-Israel, I think the US ought to endeavor to be a fair broker as much as possible between the Israelis and the Arabs, and I blame the Bush admin for abandoning this role so blithely.
Kerry is a Jew.
That is how this will be spun.
"Prove that Jews support Bush! Vote Bush!"
That is also how this will be spun.
Israel-shmisrael..."Democracy" Balaam's ass!
A joke best told with Eddie Murphy's voice!
This thread is the sound of the dying, drowning frog while the scorpion says, "Because I am a neo-con."
What did you expect to find in a hawk's nest?
Easter eggs?
Hawks don't know liberal from conservative.
They love the thrill of the hunt, the kill and the wailing wall left in their wake.
Wake up.
Laertes (Greek Jew?), your replies...
Which reminds me: Another way to spot an anti-semite is that they're likely to assume that anyone who disagrees with them must be jewish.
Nobody please accuse Odysseus of letting filial duty trump reason. We never talked politics at the dinner table.
If the jewish state could be moved to Northern Sonora/Southwest Arizona the world would be a much more peaceful place and I could get a really good jewish deli breakfast on the beach in Puerto Penasco
No other writer - has put together an equivalent that's so revealing yet so disturbing !
Neocon Musings
my thoughts on the Neocons ...
George W. Bush is their perfect guy as Pres. because he is so easily duped. I mean it's like playing a chess match against an idiot.
If Kerry wins he's not going to root the neocons out because they are deeply embedded but he will blunt their arrogance and can play chess.
The Jewish lobby is way too powerful ( most of Congress is bought ) but the REAL problem is not with most Jews it's with the fascist Likud party.
The spies who pushed for war
Julian Borger put together the composite picture with connections over a yr ago. What I'm seeing now is alot of spinning, obfuscation, and attempted cover up with deflection of blame from key players ( Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz -- Feith is secondary )
Office of Special Plans was set up by the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and run by Doug Feith. The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise.
"None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms. The exchange of information continued a long-standing relationship Mr Feith and other Washington neo-conservatives had with Israel's Likud party.
The Net Net: Sharon and the Likud party should not be dictating US foreign policy and what country the US attacks to fulfill their sordid objectives. This is unconscionable.
Mr. Soros goes at Washington
George Soros would probably agree and is now doing everything in his power to blast Bush out of the WH.
In his book "The Bubble of American Supremacy," published in December 2003, he states, "This is not the America I chose as my home," and argues that the US has fallen into the hands "of a group of extremists whose strong sense of mission is matched only by their false sense of certitude."
The US, he argues is "betraying the principles it traditionally has stood for," and becoming dangerous.
As events in Iraq have unfolded, Soros's focus has changed, and today the main target of his critique is the administration's doctrine of preemptive military action coupled with its unilateralist approach. "It reminds me of [George] Orwell's 'Animal Farm': that all animals are created equal but some are more equal than others," he s
Both Feith, Perle, and Wolfowitz have been accused of leaking classified information to the Israelis before. The definitive article on this was written for Counterpunch by Stephen Green, and is online at:
Both Feith, Perle, and Wolfowitz have been accused of leaking classified information to the Israelis before. The definitive article on this was written for Counterpunch by Stephen Green, and is online at:
"If we reject Bush ... then we can break out of where we are now," Soros says. "But if we endorse him, we really have to ask, 'What has become of us as a country?' I am not trying to pin all the blame on Bush, but deep down I am perturbed by the fact people are not more outraged."
Let' see it all of this opens the press up to a rational discussion of the US and its ties to Israel and Terrorism. I wouldn't bet on it.
Nobody's mouth foams like a neocon's mouth. Ledeen. Safire. Krauthammer. Frum. Steyn.Before these foamers, everyone else is a piker.
Smart, though. Getting a bunch of third world type kids to fight Iraq for you, with the help of good old American war technology.
This isn’t about “spying”. It’s about influencing US policy against Iran and Syria, with the usual suspects disseminating the usual bullshit via the usual media enablers. Iraq all over again.
Mark Kraft thx, I've read the Stephen Green article and and should have included it in my composite posted @ standa 08.28.04 - 1:37 pm
Serving Two Flags: Neocons, Israel and the Bush Administration
aren't these republicans a group of talented people!
oy.
At long last, JMM finally(!) breaks his silence. Check out TPM.
And here's the latest from Warandpiece: "Update VIII: Here's my latest thought on this: As I understand, Franklin wasn't motivated to pass the information to Aipac to give it to the Israelis. He wanted our own government to act. He wanted to get it to the NSC and the White House.
I'm not joking. From what I understand from my sources, Franklin was desperately trying to get the US government to act on this intelligence. Aipac was just a tool for getting influence in Washington and the White House. "
This is starting to make some sense. But the question is, why did Franklin give this info to IAPAC? Franklin works for Feith and Rumsfeld, so if he had this info and it didn't get passed to the NSC and the WH it was because it was either: #1) blocked by Feith or his superiors, or #2) he was directed to do so by his superior(s), or #3) the WH, having been burned by the OSP in the leadup to Iraq, now ignores Feith and Rummy.
Diplomatic Immunity appies to persons carryiny Diplomatic Passports in foreign countries. If you are in cour own country, it can't apply. Also, it can't be assigned after the fact.
The thing that is interesting about this is the AIPAC connection. Everyone is asking why give the info to them? Maybe, it also worked the other way and AIPAC gave info, such as the info that Niger sold yellowcake to Iraq. AIPAC is still a vocal supporter of Chalabi and maybe it is a way of getting them to shut up, before Chalabi tells what he knows about Bush and Company.
Many people have said that if this espionage proves true, the spy should be punished--arrested for life usually.
But no one as far as I can see has made any mention of how we should deal with the spy's sponsor. Assuming there was espionage, then it is not a matter of the spy acting alone.
So, how do we respond to Israel if the FBI investigation bears fruit?
He wanted our own government to act.
Precisely. On behalf of Israeli interests. Not a spy. A traitor.
If these scum were muslims working assiduously on behalf of Palestine or Syria inside the US government and in the media, urging over and over the invasion of Israel, what, exactly, would we call them?
Just now on Faux News, the blond talking head interviewed Amb. Alon Pinkas (former Israeli general council? didn't catch his title)
who claimed "I wouldn't go to Las Vegas on the odds this story is true" and chuckled!
There's all the proof we need that it IS true. The GOP wants this downplayed, so we must not let that happen.
I posted this at Yglesias, and I thought I would here as well.
It looks like Iran is indeed a crucial part of this story. In fact, the Administraion is (or was) preparing for proxy war with Iran.
Franklin appears to have been involved with the arming of the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK), a terrorist organinzation opposed to the Iranian governement. The right loves the MEK; they're well-funded and have several friends in Congress. In fact, just this morning, a Fox News military "analyst" was advocating providing support for the MEK in retalition for their "support" of al-Sadr.
That's just the sort of war the Likudniks would love...
Franklin link:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2...l?
oneclick=true
NY Times buries this deep inside, under "International". Un-effing-believable.
The best analysis on Iraq has consistently been Juan Cole. PLEASE READ what he has to say about the Israeli-spy story!!!
http://www.juancole.com/
2004_08_...le_archive.html
(This is one link you won't want to miss. Please forward.)
Peace/Shalom/Salaam,
David
"Who can we blame next, Karl?"
"Blame Canada!"
NYTABCCBSFOXMSNBCWAPO:
"CANADIAN SPY INFILTRATED CIA"
If you are investigating a suspected mole, is the first thing you do to announce it to the media? Has the guy fled to Israel yet?
I swear this administration doesn't care about catching wrong-doers, only appearing to be doing something. Will this revelation have a further effect of exposing someone else, a la Noor Khan?
Is the sheer incompetence deliberate?
bt - Yes; the story got dumped on Friday night and was confirmed by "senior Bush officials." The leak was designed to derail the investigation before it went too high.
Note that it's getting very little media play today. Much less than, for example, how much John Kerry bled for his first Purple Heart.
"intelligence laundering" attempting to clean up discredited intel by resubmitting it to the US intel community via a more credible source. (see SOTU address attempt to resubmit discredited Niger/yellowcake by sourcing MI6.)
admittedly this is tin-foil hattery but I wonder if this story breaking a day after the release of the Abu Griabh report which seems to lay blame at Rumsfield's feet was meant to divert us from that?
I think the real story here is that Franklin wanted policy-makers to take action on Iran, but that for whatever reason (ties to Ghorbanifar?) he couldn't get traction. So he tried to launder his info back to the policy-makers through the AIPAC.
This all begs the question, "Why would Franklin need to do this? Why can't he just bring the info to his bosses and get it through on merit?"
This brings you back to Chalabi, WMD, Niger, 45 minutes, etc. These policy-makers don't want the info that comes from the CIA and other fact-based organizations because they are filled with "Arabists" and "Contextualizers". They want the cloak and dagger stuff... If it doesn't look like it's coming from a Tom Clancy novel, they don't want to hear it.
This is how we got all the intelligence on Iraq's WMD... The CIA met the defectors, heard their pitch and rejected it. The policy-makers then got the same information, from the same sources only this time through a third party (British Intelligence, Italian journalists, etc).
This has got to be the most amazing mix of arrogance and incompetence the world has ever seen.
Isn't it also illegal, by the terms of the 1947 National Security Act? I'm sure I've read somewhere that the President has to go through the US 'Intelligence Community' and that the CIA/DIA is the filter for foreign sources.
It reminds me of that commercial they sometimes show during Press The Meat: a white guy calls up to rent an apartment, faking a bunch of different 'racial' accents with 'racial' names: black, Hispanic, Indian. The apartment's gone. Calls back as White Guy Peter, and the apartment's still available.
Here, it looks like the landlord's only taking intelligence analysis for people who aren't just neocons, but explicitly Likudnik lobbyists.
Does the war against "terror" get expanded to Iran in 2005? If Cheney/Bush wins, then "It's our due."
Next question: what's the antecedent for "our"?
OT "Calls back as White Guy Peter, and the apartment's still available."
I hate that commercial! Although on the radio, Peter is "Graham Wellington"...
What the hell is a guy named "Graham" doing hunting for apartments anyway? Isn't that what the help is for???
The Saudis-are they out of the loop or in the loop?
http://gregpalast.com/detail.cfm...artid=103&
row=1
The problems between Bush and FBI go back before 9-11 when Bush blocked the FBI from investigating Bin Laden family. (read article above)
CIA had info about AL-Qaida prior to 9-11 they tried to pass to bush in the Aug. 6th PDB. CIA could not have been any clearer with there huge headline reading BIN LADEN DETERMINED TO ATTACK US. Knowing that the chimp doesn't read they figured the headline would get his attention. After 9-11 Bush pointed his finger towards the agency, claiming "Intelligence Failures". I hold Bush 100% accountable for the 9-11 failures and WMD failures. His agenda blinded him from the real dangers of Al-Qaida. FBI/CIA- go get him!
Watch this space.
'Project X' indeed.
Is it spying if you essentially turn over DOD to the Likud Party? I laugh when people say Cheney is really in charge...Ariel is pulling the strings.
Bad enough Bush gets manipulated by his own people, but when those people are being manipulated by a terrorist like Sharon, well...
Considering Saudi Investment in US economy, somebody please tell me if you think he is involved in this outting or the OSP? What's their role? Speculate if you must.
OT: Now would be a good time for someone to produce the "Bush Debate Preperation Tape" that was leaked in 2000.
I've never seen it, but it can't be anything but hillarious to have this on the talk shows while Bush is tooting his horn...
I tried google, but only found stories about it.
The Israelis have always been spying on us, and pushing their agenda. Does anyone remember the Pollard case, or that he's still serving a life sentence?
Does nuclear treason ring a bell?
It's illuminating to compare the reaction here to this "story"- to the indignation after the Sandy Berger allegations were leaked.
The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy - Seymour Hersh (1991)
"The title of Hersh's book comes from Israel's notion that once they have the Bomb, they are in a position to bring it all down on everyone if ever they feel cornered. It's the ultimate in Israeli security as a nation-state, if not for the security of humankind. Israel used nuclear blackmail to force Kissinger and Nixon to airlift supplies during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, and they passed U.S. secrets collected by Jonathan Pollard to the USSR when it served their interests. The Bomb has been a hidden factor in U.S.-Israeli relations ever since the Eisenhower administration, but this is the first book [to] deal with Israeli relations from this perspective."
It's illuminating to compare the reaction here to this "story"- to the indignation after the Sandy Berger allegations were leaked.
"It's illuminating to compare the reaction here to this "story"- to the indignation after the Sandy Berger allegations were leaked."
Here we have a case of people trying to figure out what is going on, while in the Berger story, the focus was on which article of clothing he was stuffing documents into.
Did you hear that the socks he stuffed the documents in were actually made in Cambodia?? What does John Kerry have to say about that?
Diplomatic immunity also requires the prior agreement of the host country, on an individual basis. You don't just wave your passport at the cop.
It's WORSE if it's a draft policy. It allows their lobby to influence the FINAL version.
It's WORSE if it's a draft policy. It allows their lobby to influence the FINAL version.
...which was probably the point.
August 30, 2004
Officials Say Publicity Derailed Secrets Inquiry
By DAVID JOHNSTON and ERIC SCHMITT
ASHINGTON, Aug. 29 - The Pentagon official under suspicion of turning over classified information to Israel began cooperating with federal agents several weeks ago and was preparing to lead the authorities to contacts inside the Israeli government when the case became publicly known last week, government officials said Sunday.
The disclosure of the inquiry late on Friday by CBS News revealed what had been for nearly a year a covert national security investigation conducted by the F.B.I., according to the officials, who said that news reports about the inquiry compromised important investigative steps, like the effort to follow the trail back to the Israelis.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/
3...dece1ff87c95325
save us from the hyposrites
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