I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
So where's the incentive in getting rich then if you don't have to pay lower prices?
How can this possibly be legal? Oh, ... haha... silly me, corporate entities are extra-legal. Carumba!
As slacktivist put it, is this evil or just stupid?
Reason # 1,000,001 why Texas totally sucks and the US should immediately boot it out of the Union.
Enron Lives, and obviously wants the rest of what is left of poor Granma Millie's ass---
I bet the assholes who run that utility have breath that smells like Bush's unwashed cock and whatever Laura had for dinner. . .
a big factor in your credit score is simply your income.
The other is your willingness to take on debt weather or not you want to. I spent years being fiscally prudent and avoiding debt. Then, as I contemplated a mortgage I discovered a mediocre credit score at best. The solution of course is to start paying interest on things I would sooner pay cash for.
It's a racket.
OK YOU FUCKING WIMPS!!!!
WE WERE HAD. THE REPUBLICANS WERE PAYING A COMPUTER BANK OF PEOPLE TO MANIPULATE THE DEBATE CONSERNING THE KELLIAN MEMOS.
REMEMBER ROVE'S CREED:
"ATTACK, WHEN YOU ARE DEFENDING or JUSTIFYING or RATIONALIZING, YOU ARE LOSING!!! SO ATTACK, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ATTACK!!!"
AND WE ALL FELL FOR IT. DEFLECT FROM BUSH AND MAKE IT ABOUT THE MEMOS. AND WE ALL BECAME SOCK PUPPETS FOR THEM. THEY MANIPULATED THE CONVERSATION.
WE SHOULD HAVE ALL IGNORED THOSE TROLLS AND KEPT ON BUSH!!!!
AS LONG AS BUSH'S AWOL, COCAIN, AND BISEXUALITY ARE NOT IN DISCOURSE, CONSERNING HIS DRAFT DODGING, THEY WIN.
Reason # 1,000,001 why Texas totally sucks and the US should immediately boot it out of the Union
Seriously, Texas was a Republic once and I bet would love to be one again. Why don't we give these dumb sob's, most particularly their politicians, out of our lives?
Lucky duckies no more! Another example of deregulation run amok. Not surprising that such an obscene idea surfaces in Texas.
Economic terrorism?
maybe po' folks should be charged more for groceries and gasoline too.
Ooops... forget I said that, don'wanna give them Texas folks any ideas...
Yah, well don't get too excited - TU Electric has to get the okay from the Texas Utilites Commission to do this, and something tells me that the commission is likely to say "No."
Aren't the insurance companies in Tejas already doing this? I understood this was in part the reason why homeowners insurance was almost impossible to get and impossible to pay for. Which kind of kills the housing market I would think, but what do I know. Besides, it seems that when I apply to a variety of big old companies for work I must authorise them to look at my credit report - for what purpose I have yet to discover. Like, they're going to learn I'm out of work?
Well, this is easy. Any other utility is free to advertise that they don't do this.....basically take the socially progressive track....and likely draw away customers from this leviathan who don't believe in this sort of thing.
Any takers? We'll see.
One more quick point.....seems to me this would be an excellent addition to the John Kerry stump speech.......he ain't gonna win texass anyway.....why not dump on 'em a little bit??
Any takers? We'll see.
Leviathan
That's why I buy all my electricity on eBay.
See? Privitization works.
Uhh, privAtization. Sorry.
car insurance companies do this already....insurance is a scam. It sucks that if you have a blemish on your credit record you have to pay more...just doesnt make sense
I thought that was the thinking behind security deposits?
One more quick point.....seems to me this would be an excellent addition to the John Kerry stump speech.......
Except that Kerry, Clinton, et.al. supported the policies that made this possible.
Click homepage for bio of chief exec. I like this bit:
"Active in community service work throughout his career, he is a member of the Financial Executives Institute, the Edison Electric Institute, the United Methodist Church Administrative Board, and a director of the University of Texas and Tulane University business schools."
Got to love those Methodists for their community service!
If they are talking about FICA scores, the most widely used system, income is Not a factor in your score. But I still think it sucks to charge someone more if they have credit problems, it just feeds in to their problems and does nothing to protect the company, requiring a higher deposit would make more sense,
Kerry's new answer, when the press says his iraq position is complicated. He should say: " We give the police vast powers; they can arrest people, break down their door, and even kill to protect innocent people. Rarely, a police office does the wrong thing and abuses his/her power. But Americans still support the police. Is that a flip flop? " He should repeat this daily.
TXU plans on Sept. 27 to raise electricity rates for 185,000 customers because of rising gas prices, but raise rates most sharply for roughly 55,000 residential and small-business customers, or 30 percent, with poor credit scores, it said.
But the Bush administration loves small-business owners. Isn't it going to scold TU Electric for being mean to them?
Welcome to the Ownership Society.
I'm not any kind of legal scholar, but I've always wondered whether the credit rating system isn't some kind of violation of the anti-trust laws. It may be a stretch, but doesn't it seem like a way for the entire financial industry (and increasingly a few other industries, notice the comment on slacktivist which says that she had to pass a credit check to get a phone while living on the main-line of philadelphia) to set prices, without the individual corporations coordinating with each other, but by hiring third parties to do the coordinating? I'm sure somebody around here knows more about finance and anti-trust law than I do.
Libertarian, get off this thread and go to the open thread.
You are rude and boring.
Libertarian, get off this thread and go to the open thread.
You are rude and boring.
pie
I'll second that emotion.
GWPDA - homeowner's insurance companies have tried this in Texas; it's red lining, and there has been an ongoing battle over it.
Not to try to stick up for Texas necessarily, but just to keep the debate honest, I have to say that there are people in Texas who fight this kind of thing every time it comes up. I'll be curious to see what happens.
De-regulation - been a bit hit for the airlines. Now another way opens for utilities to screw people as a result. Fucking Reagan.
Ah, once upon a time, there was a thing called a Public Utility....
So last century.
OT: Anybody else out there think that Bob Shrum should be booted as a Kerry advisor?
http://tinyurl.com/57xog
No more wimps.
OK, Get ready for 4 more years. Don't say I didnt try. Keep drinking the kool-aid.
Not to increase the paranoia level any higher than it is..
But when I last opened an account for electricity and gas about five years ago they wanted my social security number and settled for my drivers license number.
The person I dealt with said she didn't blame me for not disclosing it (not that they don't have it at the drivers license place), then commented they were linked to an information grid.
Makes you wonder who all belong to that network and what they do with the shared information?
You are rude and boring.
pie
look who's talking
Here in Los Angeles we have the Department of Water and Power, part of William Mulholland's legacy. (Mulholland was in charge of the water side and Gordon Whitnall was in charge of the power side.) Say what you want about Mulholland, but we have reliable power (the DWP owns its own plants and has excess capacity), and rates haven't changed in several years. Rates are set by the City Council. Compare this to the investor-owned utilities in California like PG&E that had to file for bankruptcy because they were extorted by Enron.
DWP does have its share of problems, but if the City Council EVER decided to base its rates on ability to pay then every single one of them would be voted out, even subject to a recall.
It's like what the health care industry does with the uninsured: charge them the highest rates because they aren't an insurance company with a contract.
Um. Column means "fair and balanced", not factual.
Karen Schell,
Did you read the article? It talked about Dan Rather's hair. Good journalism or an op-ed? I question your judgement.
At least Karen Schell can embed a link properly. She links to the ever lovable, consistent Mark Steyn whose position on this is predictable.
Mark Steyn is the senior contributing editor for Hollinger Inc. Publications, senior North American columnist for Britain's Telegraph Group, North American editor for the Spectator, and a nationally syndicated columnist.
DWP served as a shining light (heh) during the Enronised power debacle - the validation for actual -public- utilities. The lights didn't go out in LA - maybe the first time LA was ever rewarded for being stodgy.... That of course is the example of a true ownership society - unless you consider public ownership to be suspiciously socialist?
'OK, Get ready for 4 more years. Don't say I didnt try. Keep drinking the kool-aid.'
You'll be taking your leave of us now will you, "Libertarian"?
But you've not yet told us why we ought to consider voting the party which actually bears your name, and which is on more state ballots than Ralph Nader!
At least, I would have thought that a "Libertarian" would have had rather more to say about that ideology than just endlessly repeating over and over and over and over again that Kerry wasn't fitting hard enough... Oh well, if you don't have anything more to say, I guess we'll have to give you a proper Schell-off;
Toodles, "Libertarian"!
TXU and Texas Republicans, attending their hate-mongering fundamentalist churches with their WWJD golf bracelets and W bumper stickers, will not have the luxury of a 'Virgil' when the fire comes for their fat GOP asses...Texas: The Ignorant State of Hate!
'that Kerry wasn't fighting hard enough'... But you all knew what I mean, right? He's repeated it often enough after all.
As slacktivist put it, is this evil or just stupid?
Bitz
I'm voting for evil. Used to think this kind of stuff was just due to a sort of mindless Juggernaut of Greed that happened to crush the less fortunate as a side effect. Now am convinced that the rich and priviliged classes actively desire an existence as economic vampires. Having all that money and power just isn't enough - they want to use it to reach into our pockets and suck out the few remaining sou.
And Norquist's dream to turn us into Brazil with a kick-ass army comes closer to fruition, bit by bit...
Don't say I didnt try.
You didn't try.
Atrios,
In the spirit of accurate blogging you may want to edit your post. Income is not included in credit scoring models.
(My post at Slacktivist)
While I don't support TXU's plans, your claim that income is a ingredient in credit scoring models in incorrect. Past payment history and the amount and number of existing available credit lines is part of the calculation but income is not included in credit scoring models (at least not the major's like FICO).
Visit http://www.myfico.com/myfico/
Cre...FICOIgnores.asp
That said, lenders do consider income when evaluating credit applications to determine debt to income ratio's. I don't believe TXU would be considered a lender and will most likely lose a lawsuit if they try include income as a factor in their pricing schedule.
Either way, TXU's plan will have a more detrimental effect on those least able to pay. And people with low incomes are disproportionately represented here. For basic services I find this particular risk mitigation strategy reprehensible.
OT I can't get into any of the al jazeera stories. Are we all locked out or is there a way to get these stories?
OT: Rampant Demagoguery. Charles Johnson, he of 'little green footballs' is a man on a mission. It's not a good mission. Example:
"Throughout the Arab world, and in some places in America, our enemies danced and celebrated the carnage.
On the third year after September 11, at LGF we haven’t forgotten the promise we made on that day:
Never again.
At LGF our mission is to expose the ideologies, plans, and allies of our enemies, so that as citizens we have the information we need to defend ourselves—and to demand that our government defend us.
Some of the spoiled, self-hating sons and daughters of our rich society tell themselves that by mocking the events of that day, they’re showing intelligence and sophistication...
I nominate 'Charles Johnson' for a 'Hatemonger' award
than just endlessly repeating over and over and over and over again that Kerry wasn't fighting hard enough
Summed up exactly. (adjusted for spelling)
While I agree that this isn't a good idea, income does not directly factor into your credit score. There are legitimate reasons to argue against something like this, but this isn't one of them.
Libertarian, you are a troll.
You have offered nothing except shrill criticism and advice so generalized it's meaningless.
It can only be intended to demoralize and damage.
Congratulations, though - your protestations that you were doing this out of "concern" had a lot of us fooled for a long time.
I saw the light when you showed up at 6:00 A.M. the other day and had already posted three morale bombs by the time I left a half hour later.
Run and tell Unka KKKarl - your cover's blown.
renato: "maybe po' folks should be charged more for groceries..."
In effect, they already are.
A friend at work told me that after reading the fine print on his homeowner's insurance renewal paperwork, he discovered his insurance company may drop anyone who had wiring that was installed more than 40 years ago.
Since I live in a house built in the 1920's with lots of original wiring (no aluminum thankfully), I am going to be scanning the fine print very carefully in future.
JASE,
Look for little things about asbestos, lead, and mold too.
Fielding,
I am confused about the Brazil inference.
Is this because of the have/have-nots scenerio in Brazil or is there
something more insiduous happening there?
Maybe a better model would be to require a deposit based not the applicants credit history but on the past energy consumption of the property or the average energy consumption per square foot for the area.
This would distribute the burden making it proportionate to the risk of potential financial loss.
Of course I could get shot for such ideas if I were in Texas.
So what the fuck are security deposits for?
TXU started as a government-protected monopoly that was heavily subsidized at the tit of that government. Now hypocrites will scream "free market" with absolutely zero irony when opposition to this sick plan begins in earnest.
mac - just referring to the economic model of a small privileged class controlling the economic and political power to the detriment of a very large underclass.
Geeze, quit your bitchin! If your electric bill is too high, just go sell your first born on Ebay!
Thanks Feilding I get it.
Sounds like we already are just like Brazil! and isnt this the Repug credo anyhow?
I guess the Boston Globe is backing up CBS's claim that the memos weren't forgeries. I wonder when the nutjob cable news shows will do the same.
http://tinyurl.com/6f4ed
This was my response to estabrook's post on Slacktivist:
[Slacktivist] didn't say that "income is an ingredient in credit scoring models". He said low income is a factor that invariably leads to poor credit ratings. You could argue about "invariably", but it's hard to dispute that the poorer you are, the likelier you are to have had trouble paying your bills and loans - and the less likely you are to have been approved for a lot of credit in the past (since, as you pointed out, lenders certainly consider income), thereby reducing your chances of boosting your rating by borrowing a lot and repaying it on time.
Now I know why so many independents have given up on y'all, if this is the way you treat them. At least as DKos they have manors and are willing to evaluate. Y'all just drink kool-aid. Anyway, y'all say I don't give you any thing valuable. Hopefully this will be valuable:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/1.../12brod.html?
hp
income is of course a factor in credit scores. not in isolation, but as it relates to existing debt, etc.
Back on topic (sorry), the local utility here in Omaha requires a $120 deposit for electricity within 7 days of move-in or they shut it off. This is supposedly so they don't get burned by apartment dwellers stiffing them on the bill.
Since this is a flat fee, it's regressive. Doesn't depend on square footage or projected use. And it would take some kind of Frankenstein's lab to burn up $120 worth of electricity before the first bill comes due (usually in about 3 weeks). Even funnier, the 7 day "grace period" for coughing up the deposit is characterized as "for your convenience."
Smells like a corporation soaking its customers for a nice little chunk of investment capital to me.
Is this pretty much standard in other locales?
The poor get poorer. Like the poor having to pay extremely high interest rates forever for an old used car just to be able to get back and forth to work at minimum wage.
DKos got manors! Wow! I thought they were all pretty class-light over there and now they got manors!
I (or my family actually) gave a deposit to Arizona Public Service in July, 1959. It was pretty much a token then - now, well, when I moved into my new/old house a couple of years ago, I had the cutest conversation with the turn-on people.... They decided that a forty year record of paid service was probably security enough.
I wonder how many of us here really have manors? I know I don't. I have a hacienda.
At least as DKos they have manors
Manors? You're kidding. They must all be rich.
When you learn some manners, you'll be treated with respect. Repeating the same crap on every thread day after day is definitely ill-mannered and boorish. Pretending to be something you're not doesn't win you any points either, btw.
You're not fooling anyone.
I wonder how many of us here really have manors? I know I don't. I have a hacienda.
Vicki Stein
I have a ranchero.
And I, in order to conserve electricity, have a ramada.
Esta:
How would requiring a deposit from those who consume more make the burden "proportionate to the risk"? It would make the burden proportionate to the *amount* of possible loss, but it says nothing about the probability of that loss actually occurring, which is what a "risk" is. I have no idea how best to estimate that probability, but it seems that people who have a poor past record at paying bills would continue to have a poor one, hence the proposed use of credit rating as a predictor of likelihood of non-payment.
However, even if one's credit score is perfectly correlated with the risk in question, it is extremely easy to make an argument that the kind of price discrimination proposed here is lousy public policy. Moreover, utilities *already* have the power to penalize lousy payment practices -- for example by charging a late fee. Sounds to me like this "solution" is overkill, if not worse.
ignore the trolls. Seriously, it was a lot easier to read a little bit of crap from libertarian that a whole bunch of squabbling by everybody else about libertarian.
I have a "bungalow."
Damn those DKos millionaires!
Reason 20,481 not to participate in the economic system.
Purchase nothing you do not absolutely need to stay alive.
I've been doing it for the last 3.8 years. And, I'm happier for it.
Wow, I am so impressed with your spelling prowess; you must be really intelligent. Hey, I never called anybody names, but some of y'all thought it was funny to make fu of my dead mother. The only reason why I say the same thing over and over, is b/c I am truly scared that Bush is going to win. Regarding the subject at hand, I think that it is acceptable to charge a premium if the future cash flows are riskier. That is, the riskier the customer,the higher the rate should be.
Libertarians like manors?
Just as I suspected they're really Rethugs deep down - to the Manor born!
http://slate.msn.com/id/2106510/
At DKos, where people have manors (lucky duckies), Libertarian is *kalki* and posts the same shit there. Isn't that nice of him?
I have an apartment. And Consolidated Edison does apply late fees and require a deposit to restore service if it has been cut off.
Charging higher rates to those with poorer credit scores is bad public policy. Good luck to the people in Texas who will try to fight off the proposal.
HaHa,
Duh?
Yea and on DKos I said that I am a libertarian. See, I am honest. I don't need to pretend.
The only reason why I say the same thing over and over, is b/c I am truly scared that Bush is going to win.
And repetition of one point is a sure-fire way to alleviate your fear, while doing nothing to change the potential outcome.
Registering people to vote is a good way to work toward the outcome you say you desire.
I say just be glad they aren't using the poor to generate power.
Atrios,
Income is not a factor in credit scores as it relates to existing debt. The numeric credit score does not consider income. Lenders at the time of the credit application factor debt ratios etc.
I realize this is a minor point and have already conceded that the poor are disproportionately represented in low credit scores. That's why I don't think TXU's plan is a good one.
However, I think it is dangerous to automatically equate being poor with having a low credit score. Just as it would be dangerous to conclude that minorities have a propensity for criminal activity because they are disporportionately represented in prison demographics.
This issue is one of coorelation versus causation. And maybe I read too much into your post.
See, I am honest.
So are the people here who disagree with you and are honestly tired of your spamming. So what?
*yawns*
"Libertarian", give it up. I correctly had you pegged weeks ago as just another false indentity troll.
'Now I know why so many independents have given up on y'all, if this is the way you treat them.'
Bullshit, and you know it. Nader's getting only a fraction of the support he got for 2000 in this years polls.
And as for how you are treated, are you really so stupid as to believe that anyone will see your endless obsessional repetition of the same point over and over and over again and think you ever were worthy of respect? Even your little "valuable" gift is exactly the same point again, linking as it does to an article about how Democrats are supposedly taking a beating.
You don't have the slightest clue how to create a convincing false identity, and within a few posts every single person here sees through you. A "Libertarian" nee "Conservative", who's voting for Kerry, but can't say why, or why he's not actually voting Libertarian, who just drones on and on about negative impressions of Kerry? It's even vaguely convincing to us, let alone the "Independents" whose labels you borrow without having a clue what the ideological package inside contains.
Indeed, the only "independents" that have been seen here thinking asshats like you have ever made a genuine honest point, are the false identities you asshats have to make up to reply to your own trolls with... They in turn being equally transparent and ludicrous of course.
Oh well, let's all say goodbye to Libertarian, and his sudden discovery of the label "Kool-Aid drinkers" for the people here, shall we? No doubt we'll see a brand new "Indepenedent" appear within a day or two, or perhaps the increased activity of one of the older ones you've had lying low just recently (Like "Stunt Woman")... but really, why bother? It's not like you've even learned to post a single solitary new idea in your last little outing here, have you?
Franklin Roosevelt. TVA. Rural electrification.
The entire premise of this has been fought, won and established long long ago, thus the concept of a public utility (c.f. Theodore Roosevelt as well, to include, sub, 'trust busting', 'meat packing', regulation of, 'WestStar')
The little game that Tejas seems to be playing is one that is directly attendant on that grand old privatisation scheme taking the staid old utilities world by storm. The purpose of a deposit is not to support service to the public. Were it so, our various deposits would be for the estimated service period, not some pre-set amount pulled out of thin air. Nor should it be.
This particular game is also being played out amidst the -water- providers - anybody here from Atlanta? Recently, there was an attempt (grab) made by a French company to force the City of Phoenix into selling its water department off as a private company, which is something that our friends at the WTO seem to encourage. The attempt failed, but only thru some really extreme slickness on the part of City management(tm; City of Phoenix: Best Managed City in the World).
Incog,
If I offered you 2 investments; they both paid equally (15%), but one was twice as riskier than teh other, which would you piok?
Monica,
Free country
I've been doing it for the last 3.8 years. And, I'm happier for it.
T.K.
I've been living a minimumite lifestyle for a couple of years now. If things get really bad, I'm suggesting to some on this blog who may to head for the nearest Amish community. They'll let you live on their outskirts if you're not religious.
Libertarian,
Nonresponse.
Back on topic (sorry), the local utility here in Omaha requires a $120 deposit for electricity within 7 days of move-in or they shut it off. This is supposedly so they don't get burned by apartment dwellers stiffing them on the bill.
I moved 2 years ago to the county next door. Different utility company. I hadn't paid electric in my own name in about 3 years -- it had been in my former roommate's name. I had a choice: either cough up a $300 deposit before they would provide electricity, or get a co-signer for my bill. Since the move was costing a bundle anyway, I opted for the latter. Now, my ex-roommate still gets copies of my electric bills every month, and will continue to do so unless I give the electric company $300 (which, BTW, they would NOT apply to a late bill should I happen to miss a payment). (p.s.: How COULD one possibly rack up a $300 electric bill in one month in a 1/1 apartment?)
In the present economy, and for reasons other than the above, it is swiftly becoming a crime to be poor. And Barbra Ehrenreich pointed out in Nickel and Dimed that many poor people wind up spending much more for week-to-week rent in motels and such because they can't cough up deposit money for an apartment lease.
OT: Al Franken's Air America show is now being broadcast on Sundance. I caught one late last night. He said a friend of his, someone he'd co-written with on SNL I think, said that even though he was generally a conservative -- he thought the country might be "healed" if, in this election, W wins the popular vote but loses the electoral vote. 
Is irony really dead, or could somebody hold a mirror under its nose?
Here's how income affects a portion of your credit score:
Despite being a moron in college and running up my credit cards when I was too proud to ask my parents for help (and I'm *still* paying them down), my credit limits keep getting pushed up and my credit score continues to increase (from a 640 the week after I started my first full-time job to a 720 the last time I checked it out of curiousity, less than two years later). In fact, I've asked more than once for my credit card limits to be cut back, because I do not want $20k in credit available.
However silly I was about how I was doing groceries, car repair, gas, and flights home, though, I never paid less than the minimum each month.
Credit card debt is scored as a portion of credit available. Therefore, $5k out of a $15k limit (33%) does not look nearly as bad as $1800 out of a $2k limit (90%).
Income comes into this by affecting how high the credit limit is going to be. The one time I did request a credit limit increase, they asked what my annual income was. I'm sure that every time they send me a "congratulations! we just upped your limit by $2k" letter, they checked to see that I was still employed.
If I offered you 2 investments; they both paid equally (15%), but one was twice as riskier than teh other, which would you piok?
Public health and safety be damned. If you can't afford the higher prices, just sell your microwave on Ebay and buy some candles.
Alberta is Canada's Texas.
Alberta is also the only province in Canada where you can cut off someone's electricity in winter for not paying their electricity bill. No other province allows this in the winter months, as people would die.
In Alberta, they don't give a fuck.
TOTAL MISUNDERSTANDING
Look, if the poor keep "gettin' by" with being poor, then what, pray tell, is their incintive for, you know, bettering themselves?
So, here steps in a utility trying to help these people by giving them an incintive to better themselves, i.e., lowere their electric bills by making more money!
It's really quite humanitarian when you think about it.
If it catches on, think about the positive implications throughout the country: bread at $1.75/loaf for the wealthy and $3.25 for the poor; highway tolls at .25 for Lexus and Mercedes drivers and $5.00 for anyone driving a car 10-or-more years old . . . and, maybe, someday, the poor will have to serve longer prison sentences in harsher conditions than their white collar crime counterparts, again, giving the poor an incentive to better themselves!
The implications are staggeringly positive. A brighter, better America is just beyond the horizon!
Queequeg
______________________
'Yea and on DKos I said that I am a libertarian. See, I am honest. I don't need to pretend.'
Except, needless to say, you started out as "Conservative" here, and when called on the fact that you were refusing to say why a "Conservative" claimed to be voting for Kerry... well, you know the rest. Yup, your honesty really impresses us all...
... especially when I can remember that no-one did insult your mother: They said that your mother obviously had to dress you. And then of course, a deceased mother suddenly appeared with which to try and guilt trip the person who made the above low blow.
Every time Spidle shows his face, we remind him he's scum and not welcome. You however seem to believe you are amongst scum, but that doesn't matter as long as you are allowed to keep repeating how weak Kerry is. In the meantime, the above joke seems to be completely forgotten until you need it to misdirect attention being paid to your own dishonesty...
And there, my dear Con... I mean "Libertarian", is where you reveal your true nature. You've done it on every single thread. It's obvious what you are trying to do. So give up already.
Well poor people can have good credit too. They just have to spend within their means. Don't spend what you don't have
Chris,
My statement (at least intended) was that it would be proportionate to the potential financial loss in terms of actual dollar outlays. You are correct that pure risk is better defined as the potential for default.
However, it could also be argued (and indeed it is practiced in car and home insurance) that the value at stake contributes to the "risk premium".
I offerd an alternative - I did not argue that one was required. Anything beyond late fees etc. may be indeed be overkill.
Sorry this is OT but very important. You know all this talk about the Islamist / Al Qaida militias holding huge tracts of territory in Iraq is totally wrong. It's all a computer mistake! The clever guys over at Little Green Footballs (they are sooo cool those guys) figured it out. It seems the map was done in AutoCad and some EuroLoser had set the units for metric instead of imperial. It turns out that when Charles Johnson (he rocks) looked at the map with the proper feet and inches setting, he realized that not only do we control all of Iraq, but we also control large areas of Syria and Iran too! There's even better news on the causality front. You know how those stupid French use commas instead of periods and all that for their numbers. Well it turns out that it was some Parisien idiot that wrote 1,000 dead Americans. What this really means in French is 1.000, in other words we have only lost ONE American for the whole war. Kick Ass! USA ISRAEL ISRAEL, oops, uh, nevermind. Anyway, soneone’s got to tell Josh and Kevin all this good news.
The Texas Truth ads are doing their job:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/0409.../
nysa006_1.html
'Well poor people can have good credit too. They just have to spend within their means. Don't spend what you don't have'
And don't go having any unexpected medical bills either. Or be facing an unexpected legal bill. Or expect any kind of dignified life at all in old age. Or get accidentally blacklisted and not have the resources to rectify that mistake. Or...
*rolls eyes*
"Well poor people can have good credit too. They just have to spend within their means. Don't spend what you don't have
Libertarian | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 1:28 pm | "
I think you maybe don't quite get how credit scores work.
Sorry, forgot to turn off "bold face." Didn't mean to e-shout.
Obviously, boldface in the hands of the untrained, like me, is a dangerous thing. . . but not assault weapons, of course.
Queequeg
__________________
Look I was really poor at one time and the only govt assisance that I had was in the form of a college loan. So it is not as if I can't relate
I hope Tena is right and the Utilities board knocks this on the head.
I wonder if they could be sued for something like this.
Libertarian: Actually, my roommate and good friend is a recent college grad. He graduated with no credit because he used a debit card for everything, having been raised with the quaint notion that not having cash for something means one ought not buy it. He'd been on a lease (co-signed by parents) for the past three years near our college, and had been an excellent tenant (got a good rec from the landlord).
He got turned down by my apartment complex to sign onto my lease. The real estate investment trust that owns it insists that all non-family members over 18 living in an apartment must pass a credit and criminal background check and sign the lease. By the way, I was encouraged to sign the lease by myself (easily made the income qual on my own) and "go look for a roommate on Craigslist."
Finally, I went over the heads of the local leasing office and talked to the regional manager, who did understand the difference between unknown credit risk and undesireable resident. My roommate is signed on as an officially-approved resident, but was still not able to sign the lease. It does him no good as far as establishing a rental history, but at least he's out from under Mom and Dad's roof.
And I insisted he send in that Bank of America credit card application. It was for his own good
Well poor people can have good credit too. They just have to spend within their means. Don't spend what you don't have
Libertarian
Here's an idea: try reading some of the posts on this thread!
Thumb | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 11:17 am |
Eli | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 12:41 pm |
Incognito | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 12:49 pm |
The way to get credit is to already have credit. It's a well-known catch-22. If you're poor, you catch Hell trying to start the cycle. And you catch Hell trying to pay the exhorbitant interest associated with credit lines.
This is reminiscent of those "everybody's got an equal chance" homilies St. Ronny liked to spew, which conveniently ignored messy factors like availability of employment and quality of education. But I'm just one of those weepy libruls, so feel free to keep sleepwalking around in that free enterprise coma of yours.
All I had to do was get one credit card and use it wisely. That is not hard. It is easy for someone with no credit to get a card.
Hopefully soon, the only taxes will be on labor..Grover and Big Bird will be happy then.
If they had any brains they'd charge MORE to people with good credit scores. They can afford it, it's not like they're going to buy their electricity somewhere else.
A Texan in Maryland already sort of addressed this, but... having one credit card, and paying it off every month so you never carry a balance, doesn't do much for your credit rating. That's what I did for years. Then for several more years I ran up big balances and paid them off at a snail's pace, always making my minimum payments, and forking over hundreds of dollars in finance charges. That's what got me a good rating and dozens more credit-card offers. They are looking for people who take out large loans or carry large balances, as long as they don't default on them.
Look at it this way, this could be a good thing..... Perhaps the use of credit scores, which have enormous bias against the poor and minorities in general, is in conflict with the 14th amendment.... Oooo….. Very interesting!
I think it would be an interesting challenge of the validity of this kind of data. Not sure where the courts would stand (well, if Bush is re-elected, I think we all know where the Sup. Ct. would stand). But it IS an interesting question.... This could be just the opportunity to raise a significant challenge to a very troubling practice of using credit reports to keep people down.
As I said in the King George Version of the Bible (Grover 4:1
:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to collect greater tithes from the poor. For they are powerless and easy to exploit.
Karen Schell,
Did you read the article? It talked about Dan Rather's hair. Good journalism or an op-ed? I question your judgement.
Yoshimi | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 12:01 pm | #
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What is that refering to? I tried to follow along the thought trial there.
??
That would be "Grover 4:18"
Emoticons are the deceiver's children.
Yellow Dawg KE04, maybe *Karen's* comment went bye-bye.
I think that we should post amusing troll outing stories. There used to be an anti-Dr. Laura forum that became invested with trolls. One of the most obnoxious, named "Kyle", would take any personal info posted and harass posters about their appearance and families. Like the anon troll he especially went after women posters. One day somebody managed to trace him to a rightwing website and found a photo of him which was then posted on the forum. He was one of the most hideous-looking people I have ever seen. It looked like his neck had grown an enormous knobby, blothcy pimple in which were stuck two little piggy eyes. If he hadn't been such a horrible troll you could almost fell sorry for him. Almost that is. His rantings fell off rather quickly after that.
I mean "infested" not "invested", damn touch type. I don't think there is much of a market in trolls, they tend to scream alot and soil their panties which violates city noise and health codes and would run up business costs.
With deregulation alot of these utility companies have sold off their old delinquent accounts to the new, 'high tech' collection companies. The problem is they are trying to collect on accounts that are VERY old. (more than ten years) These are accounts which the original utility company made NO effort to collect on and they make no new effort before selling off the debt. So don't be surprised if you get something in the mail one day about a utility bill you owed in college from 20 years ago.
Jeebus, poor Texans are now apparently supposed to build cooking fires in their rental hovels and fly kites in the wind to get electricity.
Utilities are guaranteed a profit and a monopoly. In exchange, they are supposed to provide stable, affordable utility service to everyone. Where the hell do they get off, even in Texas, proposing this crap that violates the very tenets of their privleged existence?
It's damn difficult not to spend what you don't have (and/or to save much of anything) if, for instance, you're like most poor people, and your fixed costs take up most of your income. The average poor person where I live spends approximately 40% of their income on their rent alone.
Libertarian, being poor in college is not the same as being poor after college. For one thing, people generally cut students a lot more slack about being broke. Go read Barbara Ehrenreich's book Nickel and Dimed and spend a few months growing some compassion, and then maybe we can have a rational discussion on the subject.
Public utilities NOW!!!
Does anyone know whether the energy bill that would repeal the Public Utilities Holding Company Act still has a chance in Congress?
And what's the expected outcome for extension of the wind-production tax credit. I know that the PTC expired at the end of last year, but reauthorization language was put into a foreign trade bill, if I recall correctly.
Anyone know the status of and prospects for these two pieces of legislation?
This is what privatizing utilities is all about. Next you privatize water, and charge more for clean water while charging higher rates to poor people. Eventually, you've created a subclass with no clean water, no elctricity, no learnin' (cause there's no public schools): you've got a Third World sweatshop labor pool in your back yard!
These guys are freakin' geniuses! Evil geniuses, to be sure- more evil than genius actually.
Did you see the op-ed from David Brooks in the New York Times? He breaks society into two groups, but then he proceeds to describe only people in the top 5% of society - comparing liberal professors and attorneys with republican businessmen, and suggests 'class warfare' among the top. Everyone else who works for a living doesn't count http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/1...n/
11brooks.html
This is what privatizing utilities is all about.
This is what repeal of the Private Utility Holding Company Act is all about.
And the water wars have been going on all over the world for years. In Iraq, for example, people talk about control of oil -- which is a valid concern. They should also be paying attention to control of water.
The Center for Public Integrity's report on the water wars, Water Barons, is a valuable read.
Coming up next- variable charges from your local fire department.
If your house catches on fire they'll do a credit check before they come out to douse the flames.
Bastards. Look, here's the thing, republicans think that if you're poor, it's because you're not worthy, you're defective.So poor people should have to pay higher rates.
It's both stupid AND evil. And we'll see more of this if we let the rethugs continue their reign of terror in Washington.
Forget texas- it's a lost cause.
Privatizing utilities is about creating limited competiton but then allowing them to stand behind the legal protections of the old monopolies to FLEECE THE PUBLIC.
Welcome to hell.
"Some of the spoiled, self-hating sons and daughters of our rich society tell themselves that by mocking the events of that day, they’re showing intelligence and sophistication..."
--Charles Johnson
Aaaack! Class warfare! Class warfare! Class warfare is the worst imaginable of all ideological sins, and Johnson has committed it.
So why is it that "class warfare" is such an abomination when it's directed at corporate welfare queens and billionaires, but it's OK when manufactured faux "populists" try to direct Red State resentment against Hollywood, "limosine liberals," "trial lawyers," and the upper middle class?
Put Texas in the same category as NM, CO, NV, and even AZ.
Texas is now officially a "minority-majority" state. DeLay fought hard for redistricting to give the Rethugs a few more years to loot and plunder.
The Texas of the very near future is brown and black... and soon, probably blue.
It's that good old Neopuritanism that's starting to catch on: having LOTS of money is a sign that you are in God's graces and are one of the "anointed", destined for heaven. If you are poor, it is because you have fallen under the Devil's influence and are evil, and therefore unworthy, so God's blessings are not for you.
I moved here from Canada Just after the 2000 election (Dual Citizen) for a job in the states. I trained in an industry that was booming, I did very well in school, and did my best to keep my debt burden low.
Since then, I've been sinking in quicksand.
I've been living like a hermit since I've moved down here, first in the cheapest studio apartment I could find, then by sharing a three-bedroom apartment with 5 other people. My most expensive belongings are a 4-year-old computer and a 10-year-old used car, both bought as bargains. I've had to pay moving expenses twice, pay for medical expenses during an uninsured period (despite high insurance premiums the rest of the time). Every penny I've made extra has gone into paying off my debt, and I'm STILL deeper in debt now than I've ever been!
So when people tell me that the poor should live within their means, I think about my $15/hour job, and think of all the time I've had to spend to pay down debt spent on the very basics of living... and I have to ask, what the hell am I doing so wrong?
Erf... ranted.
The point is, the system here is being increasingly stacked so that the only way to succeed is if you are born successful (I.e. rich).
If you're poor, with the current system, you probably can't afford the level of education you are capable of, you are more likely to wind up with massive student loans, setting you back years on saving for retirement, reducing the amount you can save for emergencies, and increasing your need to rely on credit for essentials, and thus pay even more in interest.
Now with companies like this checking credit scores to base payment rates, hospitals charging uninsured patients more than insured patients, and employers becoming increasingly picky about whom they hire (employed experienced professionals over unemployed or unexperienced individuals) , the deck is becoming increasingly stacked against those on the lowest rungs.
It's the ugly reality behind the libertarian dream of laissez faire economic policies. Business needs rules just like roads need rules, and even though Kerry is not my first choice to reverse this damage done to our social contract, he's the best chance we have right now to slow this process, and someone who might be receptive to grass-roots efforts to change the system, rather than fight them every step of the way like Bush Administration has done.
If we have to face another 4 years of Bush, I'll probably move back to Canada. I'll pay _less_ in taxes after factoring in health insurance, and at least there I know I'll get treated if something happens to me.
" But I still think it sucks to charge someone more if they have credit problems, it just feeds in to their problems and does nothing to protect the company, requiring a higher deposit would make more sense," Scribestalker
On the other hand... all those "slackers" will be motivated to become "better", richer people entitled to lower rates. How else you gonna get the losers at the bottom of the social heap to work on improving themselves?
Applying the same idea to every other part of life means that Texas will eventually become the richest, most moral, most successful state in the nation! And who doesn't want that to happen?
My con ed bill just came; I used 10% less energy this month than last month but was billed 20% more...the regressive energy pricing has already begun....
My con ed bill just came; I used 10% less energy this month than last month but was billed 20% more...the regressive energy pricing has already begun....
Typical Repug thinking: "It's your own dumb luck for not having been born rich!"
Punishing the poor.....yes, how SO Republican.
And people STILL think Bush is wonderful.
America: where smart is bad, and stupid is good!
"Libertarian:"
"Y'all"????????
Speak English, will you?
Some electric companies also charge you a deposit if they don't like your credit or Beacon score.
Even if you own the home in question, they make you pay a deposit.
Of course, if you make a lot of money & don't have any debt then they'll give you a break.
Yep, yep. Pure science fiction incrementally becoming science fact. They'll be calling us all "Copper Tops" real soon now. 
Would you like a little dystopia with your Latte?
About TXU Corp:
TXU manages a portfolio of competitive and regulated energy businesses in North America, primarily in Texas.
In TXU's unregulated business, TXU Energy provides electricity and related services to more than 2.6 million competitive electricity customers in Texas, more customers than any other retail electric provider in the state.
http://www.txucorp.com/
Erle Nye
Chairman and CEO
TXU Corp.
In 2002, Erle Nye raked in $7,810,135 in total compensation including stock option grants from TXU Corp..
Executive Paywatch Database
You got the story wrong. It's based on a very specific and narrow credit score, that only looks at your past history on utility and cable bills. It's some three letter acronym, and two of the letters stand for utilities and cable. Can't remember what the third letter is.
Income has nothing to do with one's credit score. Period.
That's the simple answer. You could say that income has an indirect effect, along with a thousand other factors, but not directly. One could factor in the nature of one's work (contracting vs. full time), one-time events like natural disasters that could lead to unemployment, divorce/palimony and other family events, etc. - but none of them has a direct effect on your credit score. If you continue to pay your bills/cards/etc on time - your score will be unaffected by the previously-mentioned indirect effects.
The credit scoring companies (Equifax, etc.) have no idea what you make. They know your credit limits on all your cards, they know about inquiries on your report (you looking for new credit), they know how much you owe on all your cards, they know if you've made any late payments for the last seven years, they know how long you've lived in your current and past addresses, they know if you've successfully paid off big loans like auto and home, they know if you've had any collections, repos, bankrupties, etc. in the last seven to ten years (give or take), but they don't know your income.
In fact, it's easy to make a strong case for, and see why the credit companies are not all that interested in your income. Don't matter if you make $15/hr or $100/hr - if you can't pay your billz on time, you shouldn't have a good credit score.
The bank/financier, armed with your credit score (FICO), will look at your income level and all the rest of those indirect affecting factors, and decide if you can really afford to make payments on that overpriced condo in the good part of town.
Pretty sure some insurance companies still use credit scores to figure out how much to charge customers. There've been a bunch of lawsuits about that - some successful. That goes to the whole racism thing b/c (and don't quote me on this) blacks, in general/overall, have lower credit scores than the general population. So, not only was this insurance policy just plain dumb, it was also possibly racist.
"Libertarian:"
"Y'all"????????
Speak English, will you?
please tell the same to all the "folksy" suhthunahs you consider friendlies!
Yellow Dawg KE04, maybe *Karen's* comment went bye-bye.
pie
Oh, thanx, so it was deleted? Was it for language or political content or ? I'm not a big fan of profanity. OTOH, As I've just started doing the blog reading crawl this month and I'm wary of bloggers who delete based on a political disagreement. Too "Big Brothery" for me, I can handle the opposition well enough. Plus, it adds to ensuring an echo chamber effect. Just my 2 clams, for whatever clams are worth these days.
Appreciate your reply anyway, pie. Have a good 'un.
Any other utility is free to advertise that they don't do this
You're joking, right? If so, I apologize. Otherwise, you must be from some state that has deregulated - and your deregulation works. In Texas, most TXU customers don't have a choice.
The cities with city-owned utilities, Austin and San Antonio, pay significantly less and get MUCH better service. As a consumer of Reliant (formerly HL&P), TXU, and the Austin and San Antonio utilities I have to say that Austin's is by far the best. Deregulation? I'm all for competition. But not cronyism. And the Enron fiasco is not reassuring.
My new friends:
Telefonsex, Telefonsex - - Partnersuche, Partnersuche - - Blog, Blog.
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