I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
The Texas Truth ads are doing their job:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/0409.../
nysa006_1.html
I Al Franken.
Here in NY... the day is eerily simialar. Gorgeous and the Republicans are just as wrong as they ever were... oh, and they're not doing their jobs again
Yeah,but Ashcroft did manage to cover the breasts of those statues in the Justice Dept.,Right?Mission Acconplished.
Do your Fucking JOB BUSH!
Wow, haloscan is weird.
That was meant to be:
I (heart) Al Franken.
The inability to convince more Americans that BushCo was and still is a collective fucktard on security is the biggest failure (so far) of the Democrats.
I love how Dick "Big Time Asshole" Cheney was the terrorism czar before 9/11. Yet now he's Mr. Tough-Guy against terrorism. Basically, as far as I can figure, Cheney was involved in allowing 9/11, so he could get his rocks off by starting endless wars around the globe.
Certainly, the fact that several air defense war games were going on before and on the day of 9/11 greatly diminished our effectiveness against hijacked planes. Whoever was in charge of those wargames was in on the 9/11 plot. Mark my words.
Did anybody else see the Bill Moyers/NOW piece last night? I am NOT prone to tinfoilhatting, but hte show led me to the eerie feeling that (a) BushCheneyRummieRiceWolfieFeith KNEW it was coming, and (b) didn't care! Especially damning was the commentary that, in the hours after 9/11, the focus was exclusively on how Bush would address the nation, rather than on preventing additional terrorist attacks.
Typo.
Never Forget
No shit.
Everyone should be fucking forced to read this before being allowed to vote.
I will give $1000 to the group that does the "My Pet Goat" ad. And I'll raise thousands more for it.
by the way, Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeada are merely fall-guys for 9/11.
Now, thousands of people are done,
So the Chimp can blow Saddam's gun.
But never you fret,
We won't forget,
'Cause the Chimp wants to lap up more fun.
Yes, we should never forget (though the next generation will, I hope), but we should also never forget the reactions of the administration, their slowness in starting to look for the culprits, their protectiveness towards their Saudi pals, the way they now use the horrible events as a trademarked Republican thing.
Franken:
Clinton trusted Bush to protect America. This proved, nine months later, to be a disastrous mistake - perhaps the biggest one Clinton ever made.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that Bill Clinton, arguably one of the smartest Presidents who ever served, was this stupid.
He let Poppy Bush off the hook after Poppy pardoned the Iran-Contra gang;
He suffered through an eight-year witch hunt in which Republicans revealed their true souls to him, if not the entire world;
He regularly hired Republicans and conservatives to work for him, notably David Gergen and Madeliene Albright;
He MET with Bush and his entourage before the inauguration, during the last few weeks of his administration.
If that wasn't enough to convince Clinton of Bush's incompetence and incurious nature, and the general danger in trusting certain Republicans, I'm not sure what would have been. I'm a Clinton defender, and I believe he's the best president to serve since FDR. I like him personally, and would vote for his wife for president in a heartbeat.
But this little anecdote simply smacks of something fishy. Sorry, Al, but I'm not buying into this completely.
Completely off topic:
I just got a recorded telephone survey call that asked questions about who would I vote for, who did I have a more favorable opinion of, etc. One of the questions was Do you think the U.S. should act more the way our allies think we should act or do you think our allies should act more the way we think they should act? "Neither" was a choice, so I picked that. Does anyone else think that's a weird question?
Never Forget, either:
Bush: "No WMDS here!"
Press: Haw Haw Haw!
Joe Lieberman: 'Hee Hee Hee!'
I have always believed that our presidents were aware of an impending attack like 9/11. I think they welcomed it as a stepping stone to greatness.
Clinton did everything he could to encourage a terrorist attack. If only they had attacked during his administration, he would still be president. I believe he realizes this. He practically said as much when 9/11 happened.
He must be dissaponjted that despite everything he did the attack happened while Bush was president.
Just bad luck.
still be president?
"Do you think the U.S. should act more the way our allies think we should act or do you think our allies should act more the way we think they should act?"
-Janet
Janet, you were just push-polled. Did you get the name of the polling firm?
don't forget but move the fuck on...
Lanny,
Thanks for your opinion.
How can we forget? There are more attacks today in Saudi Arabia. Once and for all, what is Bush doing in Iraq?
The Texas Truth ads... Zzzzzzzzzz!
-Libertarian
Thanks Atrios, perfect tribute!
Last night, while channel surfing, I came in at the end of a 9-11 tribute on KCET. It was the last few minutes. Condi Rice was sitting, testifying in front of the 9-11 commission. Ben Benista was asking about the memo that said Bin Laden intends to strike in the U.S. It showed him pressing the question, and Rice trying to explain why that didn't get anyone's attention. The film then went to Crawford, Tx., and showed Bush sawing dead tree trunks on his ranch. It cited how many days he still was to remain at his ranch. It was something like 23 days. Then it went to the planes flying into the towers. It was jarring. It would make the most outstanding ad for Kerry to use to answer cheney's last attack about who will protect us from the next attack. The part that I saw didn't last more that a couple minutes. It said it all!!!!!!!!
I (heart) Franken, too. 9/11 would not have happened if Bushco had not been appointed president. Why are people so willing to be taken down the Alice-through-the-looking-glass rabbit hole by facist news channel and hate radio? Why do so many refuse to see what a colossal failure this group of evil manipulators is? Re-read Chapter 8, 9/11 report. Not a lot of sugar coating there.
Operation Ignore started in January 2001.
And it is still in effect.
Junior and Osama = love at first sight.
Will Kerry do it? Will he challenge bush's bullshit 'strong leader' image by educating the voters on what an unforgivable moron he was leading up to 9/11?
Only if he wants to win.
Bush's bullshit image has to be exposed from every angle for it to come into full view. There's a reason why he was a cheerleader instead of a quarterback in college.
Clinton did everything he could to encourage a terrorist attack.
Didja follow the link? Didja read that page?
____
Good timing. I was just looking for the Hart-Rudman Report.
HaloScan is drunk again. But why shouldn't she enjoy a Saturday tipsy like the rest of us?
___
Ben Benista
Think you mean Richard Benveniste, whom the boy king called "Ben."
Annya - that was Bill Moyers NOW. And Richard Benveniste.
I've been plowing through "Age of Sacred Terror" off and on the last couple of weeks. It's like that Franken chapter, except for an entire book, and without the jokes.
Really tears the entire Bush gang a new asshole. No wonder these pricks have to smear 24/7.
I prefer Operation Go Fuck Yourself, George.
"Never Forget" - good caption for a picture of YROT listening to The Pet Goat.
Go read this month's Atlantic. The lead article is by James Fallows, about how the administration was yearning to attack Iraq from the very first, how they spent two months huffing and puffing about how they were gonna get Osama in Afghanistan so he had plenty of time and warning to disappear, how they short-changed that Afghanistan war, and how they have completely screwed up the Iraq war. Completely. Worse than we could imagine.
I wish this article would get reprinted somewhere with mass circulation. This stuff needs to be known. The lying bastards need to pay.
Bill Moyers reminded me of what a lying piece of pouty slime Condi Rice is.
She ignored the impending threats that she was warned about so she could practice up for her debut with YoYo Ma, didn't bother "my husband" with the fact that the country might be attacked at any time so he could play gentleman rancer for the press, then she refused to answer questions until the administration was forced to send the lying skank and then refused to give straight answers to straight questions.
If that lying scum isn't jailed no one should be. Blood on her pretty piano hands, lies on her tongue.
I'll never forget who did this to my country and the world.
On the topic of Never forget, another fine, fine piece from Tom Dispatch
Representative graf:
--------------------------
After finding standard Army interrogation doctrine sound,[Major General George R.] Fay was forced to confront a single, central, uncomfortable question: what was the source of the aberrant, "non-doctrinal" practices that led to torture during interrogation at Abu Ghraib? Scattered throughout his report are the dots, politely unconnected, that lead from the White House to the Iraqi prison cell block: President Bush gave his defense secretary broad powers over prisoners in November 2001; Secretary Rumsfeld authorized harsh "Counter-Resistance Techniques" for Afghanistan and Guantanamo in December 2002; hardened Military Intelligence units brought these methods to Iraq in July 2003; and General Ricardo Sanchez in Baghdad authorized these extreme measures for Abu Ghraib in September 2003.
-------------------------
pouty slime Condi Rice
or is it poultry slime?
Question for intelligent skeptics weary of conspiracy theory:
Yeah, you "cannot" mention something once it regards the CIA (because God knows the only trhing they ever dids was collect intel), an ultra-right-wing-minority of the Jewish community (because if you did, that would be the signal to all the millions of closet anti-Semites to restart haShoah, etc, etc, etc), the Government being any less than a GODJESUS damn X-files episode or postal service commercial or instructional video for new meter maids' paragon of unnatural enthusiasm for their job, or corruption normal in the Third World and even in our past but NEVER never never possibly in our present, because if you do you're a "conspiracy theorist" and therefore nothing you say means anything, but
how can anyone honestly look at the events leading up to IX/XI and not get the distinct prickling little feeling that the Bush gang wasn't entirelt unhappy with it? Not just the fact that "Bush let it happen" is correct and is the most generous anyone can honestly be to him, but that it might not've been colossal incompetence after colossal incompetence just happening to break records all at once.
Oh, we mean besides the way Bibi Netanyahu fucking openly admitted in an interview that yes, reactionaries were happy it had happened--oh, wait, no, not happy, no, that's not the right word, don't print that, no, it's just that now all these liberal illusions about treaties and human rights can be swept aside and the sleeves can be rolled up.
Bill Moyers reminded me of what a lying piece of pouty slime Condi Rice is.
i would only lean into condi hard if the end goal was to get her to "flip" on the preznut and his other cabinet members -- think it over for a minute, why would you, as a reasonable person, appoint an old time Cold Warrior to her role when the biggest threats to your country are economic nationalism and islamic fascism? condi was misplaced in this government from the get-go
unless, of course, the former soviet hierarchy like putin was using terrorism as his weapon? several former soviet defectors have stated that Libya, the PLO and AQ have received direct soviet funding, and some of those relationships remain in place today
keep focusing on AQ and you miss the much bigger picture - just banging on condi over 9/11 is so short-sighted
"Badda Bing!" I cried, as I ran around the house, my genitals flopping wildly
That sounds fun. I encourage everyone reading this right now to stand up, shed any clothing you have on, and run around your domicile shouting "Badda Bing! Badda Bing!"
Let's join together and become Atrios' Badda Bing Brigade.
The audio of Al Franken reading this chapter is here.
Real Audio format.
or is it poultry slime?
bo
Don't remind me, I've got to clean the chicken house.
And chicken shit can be composted, unlike Condi, it's useful.
I'll never forget because today is my birthday!
Is everyone having trouble with Holoscan or is my antique computer (doesn't even do superscript) telling me it's about to die?
strawhat sez:
Go read this month's Atlantic
I'm finding this to be true.
The offending editor is dead, or something.
.
They "knew it was coming?"
Like there was ever any doubt?
OF COURSE they knew it was coming. They had a fucking PDB less than a month out. they had Richard Clarke going nearly postal. THey had FBI AND CIA intelligence, as well as out-side (Israel, Russia, Italy, Canada, etc) sources.
So why didnt they act?
Three reasons, mainly, I think:
1) To have acted in ways so as to have prevented the attacks, they would have had to impose the same kinds of Airline Security measures that were imposed afterwards, but without the excuse and cover of the attacks themselves to blame for the then inevitable crash of some big industry donors: AirWest & Delta are now going tits up, UA won't survive the next round of bankruptcy procedings, etc.
2) The whole regime, already ineffective, was teetering in the brink of total irrelevance: they were the butts of ceaseless jokes on LateNight TV and early-AM radio; when Jefords jumped into the Indie column, they lost any hope of imposing their so-called mandate; there were 'death-watch' columns wondering how long Rummie, Asscroft, and others, could last, before the regime had to shuffle their players to make itself look plausible. They were almost lame-ducks, only 9 mos into the first term.
3)
Is everyone having trouble with Holoscan or is my antique computer (doesn't even do superscript) telling me it's about to die?
I tell ya, the ole girl's drunk as a would-be king.
But I'm having trouble with the site, generally, apparently because of the ads.
____
Happy birthday, Scaramouche.
See, I only watch Fox News and none of that other liberal propaganda so I know the real story. That idiot Clinton never figured out that Saddam was the real mastermind behind 9/11.
See, Saddam was tired of the sanctions and inspections and targeted bombings that were getting in the way of his beloved WMD dreams so he cooked up 9/11 with Bin Laden so we'd get bogged down in Afghanistan and forget to keep an eye on him.
But our fearless Dubya was too smart for that and decided to open a can of whoopass on Iraq instead. And, by God, we're going to make that country a freedom-loving democracy if we have to kill everybody there to do it.
In the meantime, Iran and North Korea and the other evildoers are now so scared...of...us....that......uh....
GO USA!!!! WE'RE #1!!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!
potty slime
3)
Isn't 3) that the regime was intent on de-Clenis-ing U.S. foreign policy? At least, on the face of it, as it were?
OOps, accidentally stumbled onto a site full of mumbling and gnashing of teeth... do i have to give back this neato tin-foil hat?
well Franken has been going on a tear for the last 4 years, but he is so easily dismissed as a left wingnut by the right. While I was agonizing about my beloved Seminoles hellish performance last night, I turned over to O'Reilly who was interviewing Bill Maher. Dipshit actually claimed not to be a conservative or a Rethuglican, but rather an "undecided" voter. Will all the bullshit the pedal and the audience they reach, it is difficult to be optimistic about the chance of Bush going down in November. The smear and hate machine keeps rolling and the media bends over and takes their licks from the right without objection. I just hope that the people reach enlightenment prior to November 2nd and vote for the proper candidate.
Thanks, Shaw, conspiracy theory really helps us.
.
where the hell is condi?
less than 8 weeks to go and nowhere to be found.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!
Your god will not save you from the blundering of an incompetentant junior administration.
I dont care how much you pray,your faith is being undermined by lunacy and defeciencies never before seen in an American presidency.
You ( and we) should all be making final arrangenments to meet our makers (tho I cant say yours is mine) should junior take this election.
God is not on your side troll.
I'm reading intelligence matters by Bob Graham who was chairmen of the senate select committee on intelligence
here's to hoping that clinton get well enough to speak for himself on the campaign stump for the dems
if you recall, he went after some bases in the middle east during his second term with jet strikes and the rethugs accused him of "wag the dog" because of the ken starr investigation that was eating up the news cycle
i would love to hear clinton's explanation of the events, because apparently the rethugs have selective amnesia
do i have to give back this neato tin-foil hat?
Nah. You look too fetching in your Alcoa SombreroŽ.
I just saw a DVD of "Iron Jawed Angels" about the fight for a constitutional ammendmant establishing the right of women to vote. They were picketing in front of the White House every day while Woodrow Wilson was president. When the US entered WWI the picketing continued but the protesting women were assaulted and called traitors for picketing the President. The protesters were then arrested for "blocking traffic".
I couldn't help but think: "This is what George W. Bush would like to see happen again."
Bill Clinton's far-reaching plan to eliminate al Qaeda root and branch was completed only a few weeks before the inauguration of George W. Bush. If it had been implemented then, a former senior Clinton aide told Time, we would be handing [the Bush Administration] a war when they took office." Instead, Clinton and company decided to turn over the plan to the Bush administration to carry out. Clinton trusted Bush to protect America. This proved, nine months later, to be a disastrous mistake - perhaps the biggest one Clinton ever made.
I mean, c'mon. This is the stuff of liberal dreams. Clinton was offered bin Laden on a platter and refused him. Can we at least be honest with ourselves? Nobody foresaw 9/11 and those who say they did are full of shit.
Bill Clinton's far-reaching plan to eliminate al Qaeda root and branch was completed only a few weeks before the inauguration of George W. Bush. If it had been implemented then, a former senior Clinton aide told Time, we would be handing [the Bush Administration] a war when they took office." Instead, Clinton and company decided to turn over the plan to the Bush administration to carry out. Clinton trusted Bush to protect America. This proved, nine months later, to be a disastrous mistake - perhaps the biggest one Clinton ever made.
I mean, c'mon. This is the stuff of liberal dreams. Clinton was offered bin Laden on a platter and refused him. Can we at least be honest with ourselves? Nobody foresaw 9/11 and those who say they did are full of shit.
http://www.counterpunch.org/
chuc...an09042004.html
I'll never forget Bush's derelictions of duty between January and September of 2001, when he and his minions ignored all the warnings about what Al Qaeda was up to, all the indications that planes might be used as flying bombs, and all of the plans to counter terr'ism formed by the Clinton administration. As others have said, I'll also never forget that look on Bush's face as he sat there and listened to the story about the pet goat.
I'll have those things on my mind when I walk into the voting booth on November 2nd.
Clinton was offered...
Where did you read this?
Link please. Let's see what you know that everyone else connected to this doesn't.
Does anyone know if the Now piece that ran last night is going to be repeated?
pie,
I'm too tired for your bullshit. Link your brain to reality if you want a link.
Oh, I see you can't prove it. Just as I thought.
Stop spreading lies, troll.
To give Pickard credit for adopting a professional attitude, he did not call Ashcroft the next day to say, "I told you so.'')
I wouldn't give Pickard much credit. He was, afterall, the guy that got rid of one of the FBI's foremost experts on Al Queda, John O'Neill before the attack in 2001.
Nobody foresaw 9/11 and those who say they did are full of shit.
getting tired
The link pie requested? Any backup for your statement? Ha, ha, ha! What's wrong Young Republicans didn't give you instructions on that point?
"Clinton was offered..."
A lot of things but not Ossama Bin Ladin (or as Rummy likes to call him, "Ossama Hussein")
sorry pie,
I didn't mean that, you are a nice lady. I'm too grumpy today...my bad.
pie,
I'm too tired for your bullshit. Link your brain to reality if you want a link.
getting tired | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 3:28 pm |
It's a Regnery book by David Bossie!!
Hurray for pie! The winner!
Clinton was offered bin Laden on a platter and refused him.
If you're referring to the whole "Sudan offered bin Laden" idea, that whole thing's been pretty much debunked. One, the offer was for bin Laden to be dealt with by using Saudi Arabia as a go-between. Remember, SA is Osama's home country and his kinfolk are still apparently big wheels there (and here, for that matter). Secondly, the guy making the offer wasn't connected with the Sudanese government as he originally claimed. Furthermore, he seems to have been thought of as a fairly shady character by our spy boys, so all them that were concerned figured the whole thing was a snake oil job.
So, no, Clinton didn't pass on getting Osama's head on a plate, turns out. The offer was made, yes, but it was a hinky deal. And let's not forget, the whole time the GOP was calling Clinton's repeated bombings of the Middle East as "wagging the dog" and trying to duck the much-more-important issue of beejay's in the Oval Office.
GETTING TIRED of winger bukake like Clinton refused to get Bin Laden?
I am.
Links, fuckwad.
Nobody foresaw 9/11 and those who say they did are full of shit.
getting tired
in terms of the date and its impact, I would agree with you, getting tired
but after the first attempt in 1993 on the WTC and the rise of terrorist activity, to not have an idea of something is criminal - it happened on Bobo's watch any way you slice it
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Let's face the music and dance.
According to today's Rasmussen Electoral Vote Predictor, Kerry is leading by 40 points: Kerry 273, Bush 243.
Sorry, the dog hit my arm and i squeezed of the button of the mouse before i knew what i had done.
3) The economy was going into the tank, and they needed something to blame for the recession--which began officially about 75 days after the installation of the junta, but the effects of which were only slowly beginning to tarnish the regime with its banker-cum-'bidness' backers.
The Bushistas NEEDED 9/11. Only an event of such magnitude could rally the support of the bemused bumpkins to the cause. They needed an attack, and were prepared to pay as many citizens' lives as necessary to assure themselves the political capital it would confer.
as for the film, that's some scary shit, brothers and sisters. Has there ever been produced any plausible explanation for the 8.5-mile debris trail from UA 99 over southern Pennsylvania?
What purpose--plausible, and or democraatic--is served to conceal the images from the other camera sources?
It was the normal course of ancient Latin investigational technique to inquire "Cui bono?" Who profits? Also, "Good for whom?"
These issues have never been even widely mentioned, much less directly addresed. If it is not time now to ask them, and to demand answers, there likely will NEVER come another.
Does anyone know if the Now piece that ran last night is going to be repeated?
Channel 13 in the NYC area rebroadcasts the Friday program on the following Sunday at 11pm.
But, as PBS talking heads like to say: Check your local listings.
Let's face the music and dance.
monica_nyc
I've got to go dance with a scoop and rake in a few minutes.
Really do have to do what I said I had to do.
Good afternoon, to you all.
And what's all this about our Commander-In-Chief being a pedophile? There's no reason for him to not just come out and admit to it. Now I know he's not very good at it but with a little more practice I'm sure he could get the hang of it. Heck, I'm not ashamed to admit that I like to take the old two-wheeler around the block every once in a while. Of course I don't fall off as much as he does. Still, it's something fun to do with the kids.
No, noone can exactly foresee a terror attack in each detail, but when you receive a report titled BLDTAIUS, or when the Phillipine police uncover Bojinka....
it also brings up the point that if we had a real defense, instead of a capitalist scam, a get-rich-quick scheme that can only think in terms of conventional engagement and conquest of weaker enemies, we might've had a hell of a better chance...
if we had real airport security instead of a capitalist get rich quick scheme featuring angry overworked minimum wage bastards...
And then there's history: look back at the way the US in Lebanon deliberately and directly put themselves forward as a racist menace without realizing it, then overlooked every single warning as part of a larger pattern of pissing on the commanders on the ground...
In the Franken excerpt, "frantic" is one word for Tenet's demeanor in the weeks preceding 9/11/2001. Richard Clarke, in his book Against All Enemies, characterized it as "Tenet running around Washington with his hair on fire".
Atrios is right. Remember.
In tribute to Our Leader on this September 11, I'm going to sit on this chair for the next seven minutes doing nothing. Then, I'll hide out in a motel for a few days.
I see the assclowns are thick as thieves today. To paraphrase Bill Maher - hey fucking trolls, why is the worst thing that happened to us the best thing that happened to Bush?
Nobody foresaw 9/11...
Richard Clarke did. Sandy Berger did.
Oh, wait, by "nobody" you mean "the incompetent Bush administration," who were told about all these plans but ignored them so they could drink and steal.
Back to your circlejerk, brownshirt. Best to Unka Karl!
General, I salute you!
"Finally, on Aug. 23, 2001, the CIA sent an urgent memo to the New York FBI office seeking help in tracking down Almidhar and Alhazmi. At long last, the significance of the information in its files seems to have dawned on the agency. A quick check of hotels listed by the terrorists as places of residence on their travel entry cards came up empty. One New York FBI agent testified before Congress in September 2002 that he had requested use of "full criminal investigative resources" to find Almidhar. But headquarters denied his request. The reason given was that Almidhar was not under criminal investigation, and headquarters cited the wall between prosecution and intelligence as posing a problem. The agent's e-mail response to FBI headquarters, dated Aug. 29, 2001, was that "Someday someone will die and the public will not understand why we were not more effective and throwing every resource we had at certain problems."
The man who knew -- Frontline
the incomparable Mickey Z reminds us: who could possibly hate the US enough to have done this? Oh, yeah, that's right, almost everybody, all the billions we bombed and pissed on and conquered for decades...
Clinton was offered Bin Laden on a platter? No such thing, rightwing interpretation. If the Asshole in Chief and the 9 supreme Assholes hadn't stolen the election, those towers would still be standing. And that's the truth.
Why does Florida have so many foreign enemies? First Hurricane Chalabi, then Hurrican France, now Hurrican Iran.
very nice, General
i say in memory of 9/11 we all observe seven minutes of silence to honor our Idiot in Chief
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...cas/
3646548.stm
Here is an article from the BBC about the N.Y. Port Authority suing the Saudi Government over the destruction of the WTC. The Port Authority doesn't seem to have been convinced that Saddam was responsible for 9/11 unlike the rest of the public. I keep meeting people who look at me like I am from another planet when I tell them that most of the hijackers were Saudis. People aren't properly informed enough to make accurate decisions in the voting booth.
This is one of the most damning indictments against the Bushies:
The public face of Operation Ignore would be an antiterrorism task force led by Vice President Cheney. Its mandate: to pretend to develop a plan to counter domestic terrorist attacks. Bush announced the task force on May 8, 2001, and said that he himself would "periodically chair a meeting of the National Security Council to review these efforts." Bush never chaired such a meeting, though. Probably because Cheney's task force never actually met. Operation Ignore was in full swing.
Dickie, what were you doing instead?
We know georgie was on vacation 45% of the time pre-9/11. What were you doing?
if we had real airport security instead of a capitalist get rich quick scheme featuring angry overworked minimum wage bastards...
No shit. I'm amazed there are still people who think the Bush malAdministration - and by twisted fiat, the American economic-political system - has done a damn thing to make us "safer". Cutting funding to first response units is "safer"? Caving in to corporate demands instead of actually improving security at airports is "safer"? Fighting tooth and nail any sort of investigation into how this nonsense happened so that maybe we could, oh I don't know, prevent a reoccurrance is "safer"?
And frankly, I think the idea we could be "safer" is horseshit. At it's very best, life is a roll of the dice and, to mix my gambling metaphors, you gotta play the hand you're dealt. As long as we have a culture that's so uneven and skewered economically and socially, there's always gonna be someone with a fetish for things that go "boom" and a shitty attitude about how to deal with conflicts. The best you can do is try to prevent it as much as possible and deal with the after effects, one of which is learning from the original brouhahah.
And it's for damn sure our "leaders", politically and economically, have royally screwed the pooch on that little bit of knowledge.
Dead on, Ronjazz. Gore wouldn't have been on a month long vacation after that Presidential Daily Brief. And don't the wingnuts understand that the 9/11 plotters must have taken heart that the country was asleep, and that their plot had not been uncovered, when they saw television clips of Dear Leader cavorting on the golf cart down in Crawford?
With thanks To E.J. Dionne; but cant the Kerry Crew turn the boat into the enemey and make a commercial that uses these Bush/Cheney remarks.
Lets not forget the administration seemed to think it was wiser than a bunch of smart military guys. On "Meet the Press" in March 2003, Cheney blithely dismissed Tim Russert when the host asked what would happen if "we're not treated as liberators but as conquerors." Would the American people be "prepared for a long, costly and bloody battle with significant American casualties?"
Not to worry, said Cheney: "I don't think it's likely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe we will be greeted as liberators." Cheney dismissed Gen. Eric Shinseki's view of how many troops an occupation would require: "To suggest that we need several hundred thousand troops there after military operations cease, after the conflict ends, I don't think is accurate. I think that's an overstatement." Have we forgotten this, too?
Many also forget the context of Bush's famous "bring 'em on" line of July 2, 2003. It was in direct answer to a question about whether, in light of rising casualty rates, the administration might want to get "larger powers" to join the U.S. effort in Iraq. Bush said he wasn't worried. After the "bring 'em on" line, his next sentence was: "We've got the force necessary to deal with the security situation."
In judging whether this administration has the right answers to terrorism and war, voters can rely on the images. Or they can rely on the record.
Backslider-well, there are European countries that did live with terror for the Cold War, which was plenty hot to them, and they didn't approach the problem with the Rummsveldtlich bullshit about how we can cut costs.
Gore wouldn't have been on a month long vacation after that Presidential Daily Brief
What? The first thing I'd want to do after reading a PDB titled Bin Laden Determined To Attack Within the United States is get the hell out of Washington DC. Wouldn't you?
a song with you in mind General
Sweet Bird Of Truth lyrics - The The - a memorial to our failed iraq policy
6 o'clock in the morning & i'm the last person in this plane
still awake
Y'know I can almost smell the blood washing against the shores,
Of this land that can't forget its past.
Oh the wind that carries this plane, is the wind of change,
heaven sent and hell bent!
over the mountain tops we go, just like all the other GI Joes
EE-AY-EE-AY----adios!
CHORUS
This is your captain calling--"with an urgent warning"
We're above the Gulf of Arabia--"our altitude is falling"
& I can't hold her up--"there's no time for thinking"
All hands on deck--"this bird is sinking"
Across the beaches and cranes, rivers and trains
all the money I've made--bodies I've maimed.
Time was when I seemed to know,
Just like any other GI Joe
Should I cry like a baby, or die like a man
While all the planets like wars start joining hands,
Oh what a heaven--what a hell!!
Y'know there's nothing can be done in the whole wide world.
I don't know whats wrong or right,
I'm just a regular guy, with bottled up insides,
I ain't ever been to church or believed in
Jesus Christ
but I'm praying that Gods with you when you die!!!
UPDATE: From ABC News:
Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."
Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".
kei & yuri,
How can it be "terror"? No brown people were involved.
Seriously, though, it never seemed to occur to them what sneered at "Old Europe", who had doubts about galloping off towards Iraq like drunken cowboys, that just maybe they'd had enough dealings with the situation to know something was off-kilter. I'm still somewhat shocked that Blair got on board, what with there still being a passle of pissed-off Irish cats in those charming little islands.
But, no...it's all about the Benjamins. What was the first thing Bush The Lesser told us to do in order to prove to the terrorists America wouldn't buckle under? Go shopping. Fucking brilliant. Not learn about who our advesaries may be or about the culture or the religion or especially the history of the regime. No, don't actually prepare yourself with knowledge and information so you can use a clear-head to approach this serious problem.
Go buy shit, that's the ticket. And be scared, especially if someone other than Bush is running the show. It's like Pascal's Wager for jackasses.
Atrios,
While I like you linking to my article, I do hope you make another post at least respecting the dead.
To remember 9/11 only with "operation ignore" seems a little cold. Have a heart. This is why the Democrats are losing ground, middle-america sees them as a bunch of uncaring, crazy, socialists who don't care if we're attacked or invaded as long as there is a government check for something they need.
I'm starting to believe it myself, yes, I Al Franken, with this post, become a Republican.
Now chaw down on my dick you idjits!
Shorter getting tired: Look! Kobe! A missing blonde white woman! Something shiny!
Last night's "Now" program should be required viewing for all those idiots who think the criminally incompetent Bush administration will make us safer from terrorism than a Kerry administration.
I can no longer support John Kerry for president.
Al Franken troll,
You missed something about "ignoring/loving the Islamofacists", bubba. And putting something about "out-of-touch elitists" would've been nice. Hell, ya shoulda gone nuts and thrown in "forcing the gay lifestyle down our throat" and "baby killers", too. Just for completeness sake.
OT- but can this banana republic get any more corrupt?
de ja vu
good grief...
Nothing respects the dead more than revealing the truth of why they died so others may live.
"Al"... you have one twisted view of reality.
Protecting the incompetence of George, Dick and Condi respects the dead how?
"Pascal's wager for jackasses." Nice one, Backslider.
So Atrios has talked about the Secret Service some and it made me wonder. Maybe these guys are doing what they're told but don't like it.
So, I went to the Secret Service No FEAR Act Data and I'm puzzled. How can there be so little Complaint Activity and Complaints and yet over 800 hearings requested? Also, note the rise in activity over the years.
The General sez:
What? The first thing I'd want to do after reading a PDB titled Bin Laden Determined To Attack Within the United States is get the hell out of Washington DC. Wouldn't you?
I don't know if I would. But Glorious Leader flew to Omaha, Santa Cruz, Minneapolis, Phoenix, and the Quad Cities. Then released what looked like hostage tape.
Steady Visuals in Times of Panic!
(I so love the General (in a way he would appreciate)).
.
I mean, c'mon. This is the stuff of liberal dreams. Clinton was offered bin Laden on a platter and refused him.
provide a link, fuckface.
monica_nyc
Thank you!
"Pascal's wager for jackasses." Nice one, Backslider.
Atlas | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:11 pm | #
Thanks. I was sort of pleased with it. Who says pot kills brain cells?
"While I like you linking to my article, I do hope you make another post at least respecting the dead.
To remember 9/11 only with "operation ignore" seems a little cold. Have a heart. This is why the Democrats are losing ground, middle-america sees them as a bunch of uncaring, crazy, socialists who don't care if we're attacked or invaded as long as there is a government check for something they need.
I'm starting to believe it myself, yes, I Al Franken, with this post, become a Republican.
Now chaw down on my dick you idjits!
Al Franken troll"
Losing ground, troll? The country is evenly split, and at this point, the EC is in Kerry's column. Try living in reality. You are NOT a majority. But a majority of the world detests your guy.
kerry is a weak, liberal, flip flopper. repeat at least a couple of hundred times daily.
yet he's staying even with (or even leading) a massively funded, "war time," sitting president who is heading up a booming economy and who looks so authentic clearing brush.
hmmmm.........
-J.T.
And just who in the hell wants people to "chaw down" on his tallywhacker? Obviously you've never had a young lady get "enthusiastic with her sexual mastication", shall we say. I come from a long line of Red Man afficianados, and the mental imagery of someone "chawing down" on one's John Thomas isn't what I'd call appealing.
Guiliani claims that he thanked God that Bush was president on 9-11, but the Franken story shows that if Gore were president, the attacks would very likely have been prevented. That Bush may be re-elected fills me with despair.
Does anyone know if the Now piece that ran last night is going to be repeated?
now video is archived at the pbs site. just wait a few days.
Right wingers celebrate 9/11
Lefties Morn 9/11
Why is this?
over and over and over again, why aren't people screaming : where is osama?
I like what I am hearing here.
You guys got to fight my guy's "strengths". Forget about what the pundits say, "Kerry needs to focus on the economy because Bush is strong with the war on terror". Blah blah... Bullshit!
Hit him hard and show the sheeple that my guy ain't so tough on terror. The sheeple will come around.
Sincerely,
Karl
why is anyone republican?
ohh - I know - because they were born rich (old money) and want to feel exclusive!
our founding fathers would SPIT on our current administration!
whatever - look, Joey is on!
why is anyone republican?
ohh - I know - because they were born rich (old money) and want to feel exclusive!
our founding fathers would SPIT on our current administration!
whatever - look, Joey is on!
My research has dated the childrens game 'hide and seek' to August 6, 1706. I've also found a reference to 'ring around the rosey' from 1692.
Response to "franken":
IX/XI was not an act of GODJESUS. It was not like an earthquake or hurricane. It was an act that at the least preventable still could've been withstood to a measure far exceeding anything Commander Bunnypants did. And there is good reason to suspect that, given that we knew who the hijackers were, had painfully obvious warnings, we could've stopped it.
As Rommel said that the best troop welfare is realistic training, because this will eliminate unnecessary casualties, so we say, the best memorial to the IX/XI dead is to actually start having real defense in this country and not the get-rich-quick scam that's still killing us.
Check this out: some of the smoothest and overall best writing we've seen in a long time, on a subject dear to all our hearts.
Yo Monica_NYC, you better take that (r) off the alcoa sombrero, that's my trademark and you know it.
Back On Topic, they didn't just passively ignore, they actively ignored, specifically they ordered the FBI to back off their Saudi friends as one of their first acts upon taking office. Check out Greg Palast.
EIN VOLK, EIN REICH, EIN LIMBAUGH
article is a nice touch kei as langley
Don't be fooled by the laughs. For all their fixation on freedom, right-wing talk shows are microcosms of totalitarian life. Limbaugh's rule is sunny fascism: the triumph of jovial either/or thinking (if thinking is the word). All truths are deemed self-evident; therefore, dissenting views are not errors of judgment but of character. Reality is screened and twisted to fit the dogma, and assertions are validated by mere force of repetition. Add on top of that generous servings of hate, paranoia, scapegoating, and buffoonery, and you get a winning combo close to Mussolini's heart.
Fair enough. But the right-wing paranoia, the existential fears? What's that about? Why the obsessive talk about freedom in a land that has never known tyranny? Why the insatiable appetite for defense spending when the enemy rides donkeys and sleeps in caves? Could it be the collective memory of immigrants fleeing persecution? Or the propensity of a God-fearing frontier people to live in, well, fear?
I know we aren't supposed to link to Juan Cole because he accused the Chimpster of cocaine abuse and gosh, that's unsubtantiated and gee, we don't want to become like them -- but you might want to check him out anyway, on the subject of Al Qaeda. And don't worry, he doesn't accuse osama of using cocaine:
http://www.juancole.com/
By the way kei and yuri and langley and the rest of the gang, do you have to reach consensus to post or can any one of you speak for the collective? Just wondering.
American civil liberties have been trashed by the so-called "Patriot Act" and yet Americans act as if nothing has changed. They beg for new restrictions on their freedom because the federal government's trained dogs at the so-called "Homeland Security" office play with colors and attempt to keep people in line politically through fear.
This administration talks about "Islamic Fundamentalist" terrorists. What does it call the Christian Fundamentalists who bomb women's clinics, kill doctors and support militia groups that produce home-grown terrorist who blow up federal buildings killing hundreds?
Fundamentalist - no matter what they fundamentally believe - are desperate people. People unable to deal with the realities of life which include change and dissent. Like cornered animals, they lash out in was that are unbelievably viscious. This can be clearly seen in the dishonest rantings of a man who lives "one heartbeat from the Presidency".
Kew, each PBS station does their own thing with repeats. The Portland OR station reran NOW this morning at 3am, and the Seattle station reruns it at 5am Sunday. Check with your local station.
Right wingers celebrate 9/11
Lefties Morn 9/11
this lefty doesn't. This lefty is sick to death of 9/11.
cervantes,
checked out juan cole this AM, i'd say cole belongs in here as long as the trolls feel convinced to vote for the preznut as a better choice than kerry
i thought this was an open forum, but if it's closed, i'd say the rethugs have won the battle, but not necessarily the war
From this morning's Zymphora: " I've said it before, but apparently it is worth saying it again:
"Rove is on his game here. By holding back the military records he has made the military records the issue, and has managed to divert the media from the real issue, which is the community service. If those legal files ever get out, showing that Bush was convicted of a serious drug offence, his political career will be finished. The real reason that Bush went AWOL was that he couldn't afford to take a drug test. The real reason he couldn't afford to take a drug test was that it would have been a condition of his sentencing that he remain clean. If word of the failed drug test had filtered back to the court, he would have gone to jail. His fear of the criminal legal consequences is why he went AWOL, and that's why the community service is the key to understanding what is going on here. By concentrating on the military records, the media is walking right into Rove's trap."
At some point the Democrats are going to have to get it through their thick heads that Bush's shoddy military record is not a winning issue for them. Bush's supporters have digested the fact that Bush had help from high places in his short military career, and can live with it. What they can't accept is the fact that Kerry came back to campaign against the war, and thus, as far as the Bush supporters are concerned, committed Hanoi-Jane-style treason against the United States. Every time the Democrats bring up Bush's war record, it just reminds Bush supporters that Kerry is a traitor. The details of Bush's service, or lack thereof, will always be buried in the selective releases of laundered records released by the White House and the Pentagon (isn't amazing how each release is described as all the documents, only to be followed by more releases when specific new points require a response?). Those who want to believe in Bush will always be able to fool themselves into believing what they want to believe. At this point, with all many documents available, and the new allegations of forgery from Bush's true believers, undecided voters will just throw up their hands in disgust at the whole issue. If Democrats want to win, the only way they can do it is to get information on what happened in that Texas court room in 1972. The person brave enough to do this would be on an a suicide mission, as Rove and Cheney would have him or her killed (a 'suicide' consisting of three shotgun blasts to the head). There is also an ethical issue involved, as anyone who talks to the suicidal investigator would also be killed. Nevertheless, the drug conviction issue is the only thing that will register with the American electorate. Do the Democrats really want to win, or are they just going through the motions again?"
Yo Monica_NYC, you better take that (r) off the alcoa sombrero, that's my trademark and you know it.
In deference to your having coined the term, clever cervantes, I added the Ž, as a sign of Žespect only.
"kei & yuri" represent a multiplicity which can voice anything through the template as long as it's true or reasonable by "kei & yuri's", not necessarily the author's, standards, and as long as it's "in character".
gracias Monica, I misunderstood.
Now this is unbefuckinglievable.
http://
seattletimes.nwsource.com...hecklers11.html
Some interesting reading for my fellow tinfoil hatties. C'mon, you know who you are 
http://tinyurl.com/6z5ov
I will never forget 9-11. We were a nation that was united.
So much potential after all that we had been through with the impeachment
and the election debacle in Florida. A time for a nation to reach out to the world
for comfort and help to fight terrorism. All wasted because Bush hijacked a tragedy
and a wounded nations fear to make HIS mistake a political asset.
He stood with his bullhorn and declared revenge...and we proceeded to kill Arabs
non stop. This is not my America. How any thinking- feeling person could vote for Bush
is the worst character flaw imaginable.
BUSH: Politics of fear, revenge and world alienation.
When I read today that Newsweek is now referring to Bush's lead shrink like " Dukakis"
I was inspired that maybe the American people will rise to the occasion and throw this murdering thug out of office come November.
"Glorious Leader flew to Omaha, Santa Cruz, Minneapolis, Phoenix, and the Quad Cities."
spork_incident - NOT PHOENIX HE DIDN'T. Sorry, but the farthest out he got was Omaha, I do believe. If he'd gotten as far as us, the boys over at Luke or down at Davis-Monthan would have taken him down without asking.
By the way kei and yuri and langley and the rest of the gang, do you have to reach consensus to post or can any one of you speak for the collective? Just wondering.
How long have you been posting here? What a strange question.
Here's the goods on Bush sweeping Hart-Rudman under the rug.
Check out the quotes - like this Newt gem from 2001:
"The administration actually slowed down response to Hart-Rudman when momentum was building in the spring," says Gingrich.
also...
The Hart-Rudman Commission had specifically recommended that the issue of terrorism was such a threat it needed far more than FEMA's attention.
and...
"Frankly, the White House shut it down," Hart says. "The president said 'Please wait, we're going to turn this over to the vice president. We believe FEMA is competent to coordinate this effort.' And so Congress moved on to other things, like tax cuts and the issue of the day."
________________
...Bush said on May 8, 2001 that the terror threat was "NOT IMMEDIATE"
check the link...
Yeah, i saw the Newsweek is now declaring the Bush lead to be shrinking, but they're just covering their asses, which is another way of saying their entire selves, inasmuch as their poll was a crock in the first place. But, they didn't get the snowball effect they were hoping for, they got caught, so they're forced to back down. Worthless scum.
Clinton was offered bin Laden on a platter and refused him.
Come back when you have some talking points that haven't been thouroughly discredited.
cervantes-
Thanx for the link. I don't find it as unfuckingbelievable as I would have say a year or so ago. This is a glimpse of things to come if Bu$hCo has another 4 years to turn the whiff of fascism into an unbearable stench.
To my way of thinking, anyone who votes for this evil cabal is committing an act of treason.
Pie -- what's strange about it? And what about it troubles you?
Would some nice member of the White House Stenography pool get really brave and ask the C in C if, knowing what he knows now, would he still continue his vacation after reading the Aug 6th PDB?
And what exactly would he do differently?
And will he now apologize to George Tenet, Richard Clarke, and all the other people who TOLD HIM THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN? Can he now admit that they were right?
The polls were never reliable, they relied on likely voters and the direction undecideds were "leaning" - not a statistical sample of who planned to vote for Bush
Do you mean post comments? Or do the main posts?
Never forget September the 11th 1973 !!!!!
heck out the complete piece in the attached:
Hullabaloo : this is what we're up against
William Hazlitt was right (about partisanship). And never more than today when the stakes are so high.
As I said, we have been fighting this beast forever. Conservatives are just more inclined to fight and more serious about winning. But, I have seen the Republican agenda change from conservative to radical in the last 30 years and their candidates from steady, stolid leaders to firebrands and incompetents. America is the most powerful nation on earth. If the modern GOP boasted prudent, tested leadership and a simple desire to avoid radical change, I would still oppose them but I would not be worried. But, these people want to wildly experiment on a global scale and their track record of the last three years is devastating. History proves that bad things do sometimes happen. Being barely left standing to say "I told you so" will be no compensation.
Never forget September the 11th 1973 !!!!!
David Ehrenstein
AMEN!!!!!! isn't this the anniversary being played out in the Bush/Pinochet ticket of 2004?
just a thought on : does anybody really pay attention to all this?
The other night I'm at a party and struck up a conversation with a young lady of the type that we don't 'see' at Eschaton too often, in that she was completely uninterested in politics.
She didn't like news channels, so no CNN or MSNBC, or even FOX for her, most of her news came from little sound bites, on "newsbreaks" between commercials, or at the top of the hour on popular radio.
So, this young woman is relatively uninformed, and definitely incurious.
She didn't seem that excited about the election, didn't like Kerry, and didn't like Bush. She couldn't even tell me of any policy differences between them(!)
But them she says, "How come when we were in Afghanistan, going after Bin-whosits, how come we drop all that and went to Iraq? They didn't attack us did they? I mean he(Bush) just switched all this (our military, anti-terrorism efforts) onto Iraq. It doesn't make any sense."
Then I realized something, here's a young woman with no information to hand, and no curiosity, and even she can figure out that Bush gave us all a cynical bait and switch in the Iraq invasion.
Then she mentioned that she was thinking of voting for Kerry, although she wasn't too fond of him, strictly because of Bush's Iraq invasion.
(I should mention that this is a very red state, and likely to stay that way)
So, take heart and have some faith in your fellow Americans, if she has figured it out, others have too.
Pie -- I meant comments. I didn't even know they do top posts. And actually, I haven't been coming around here very long, less than a month I think. I know you and Holden are Atrios's friends, but other than that I don't know anything about who's who.
If the Pentagon tape is correct, you can forget Kerry winning - any group that could get away with that has a plan to corrupt the election and couldn't risk losing power. Having said that, it does raises some curious points.
Against it:
This was a very busy highway - if no one saw a jet, wouldn't that have gotten out?
The people on the plane were real - including the wife of Ted Olson, the US Solicitor General - where are they now?
Bob Graham has been willing to tilt at windmills; so has Michael Moore - they have not signed on to this.
Also, weren't there sightings of the jet as it circled over the Capitol as though deciding where to crash?
Mainly I am doing this to convince myself.
fukkin' Haloscan isn't much for paragraph indentations, is it?
How many times do we have to debunk the ridiculous "Clinton was offered bin Laden's head on a platter"? How about the 9/11 Commission report, for any trolls who doubt our word:
Sudan's minister of defense, Fatih Erwah, has claimed that Sudan offered to hand bin Laden over to the United States. The Commission has found no credible evidence that this was so.
On the pdf version of the document, this quote comes at page 110. I don't have a hard copy to give the page cite, but it's there.
Furthermore, when we're talking about what Bush knew or should have known, don't forget that not only was Condi briefed by Sandy Berger in January, 2001. In September, 2000 candidate George W. Bush was briefed on national security issues by John McLaughlin, then the Acting Deputy Director of Central Intelligence. One whole hour of that four hour briefing was dedicated to counterterrorism. This, too, is from the Commission's report, at page 198 of the .pdf version. So a year in advance of 9/11, Bush was advised about terrorism issues. The CIA considered this sufficiently important that they devoted a quarter of their briefing to the candidate to that one issue.
Oh, he knew. He knew well in advance and didn't give a shit. And all those people died because he didn't give a shit.
Only a month?
But you haven't become assimiliated by the Borg yet? 
Pie -- Yeah, I feel fairly assimilated to tell you the truth. that's why I still come. Resistance is futile.
Oops. Sorry about the italics; forgot the closing tag in my indignation.
I'm not as anti-war as most on this site. After 9/11 I was all for going after these bastards. I agree Iraq was wrong but the usual suspects were also against the Afganistan war.
Moron Michael Moore acts like he is all for chasing down terrorists in Afganistan. Not so. He and Harkin and others were just as vocal speaking out against that war.
I say kill the animals that try to kill us.
Saw Bill Moyer's show last night on the Bush team's failures which led to 911 -- oh, sorry -- his show on the 9/11 commission's report.
Odd that none of our regular media has done a connect the dots. And all it took was an hour on PBS. Well, not really odd. I was being ironical.
He will be missed when he retires. Moyers that is, not Bush.
I just didn't understand your comment, and frankly, I still don't.
Whatever.
Never forget September the 11th 1973 !!!!!
Let's all hope it doesn't take 30 years to get justice in the US. If you're so inclined, remember Patrick Fitzgerald in your prayers to whatever god you pray to. And that he doesn't fly in any small planes.
I say kill the animals that try to kill us.
Got an address?
Unfuckingbelievable is right, Cervantes.
The Secret Service is now officially part of the brownshirt brigade.
Pulling hair and brastraps
I know you and Holden are Atrios's friends, but other than that I don't know anything about who's who.
cervantes
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
I guess it was just inexplicable.
Pie,
Are you suggesting we just ignore them? Maybe emulate France and pay them off. Even Clinton did more than that.
Alan.
I wasn't anti-Afghanistan war. I am anti the way we've prosecuted it at the expense of sending troops money and resources to deal with Iraq.
Iraq was the answer to the question: What's the one thing Bush could do to really f-ck up our foreign policy and national security.
Good ol' decisive George, gotta give him credit. He knows about being a f_ck up.
hopelesspedant, snopes.com says the Pentagon video is tinfoil hooey, FWIW.
This is indeed the Al Franken decade.
Doing your inscrutable impression?
hopelesspedant, snopes.com says the Pentagon video is tinfoil hooey, FWIW.
Here's the goods on Bush sweeping Hart-Rudman under the rug.
Check out the quotes - like this Newt gem from 2001:
"The administration actually slowed down response to Hart-Rudman when momentum was building in the spring," says Gingrich.
also...
The Hart-Rudman Commission had specifically recommended that the issue of terrorism was such a threat it needed far more than FEMA's attention.
and...
"Frankly, the White House shut it down," Hart says. "The president said 'Please wait, we're going to turn this over to the vice president. We believe FEMA is competent to coordinate this effort.' And so Congress moved on to other things, like tax cuts and the issue of the day."
________________
...Bush said on May 8, 2001 that the terror threat was "NOT IMMEDIATE"
check the link...
Steven D.,
Agreed. With all our resources in Afganistan, it would be a pretty peaceful place now.
Germany is already there, maybe France would even help out.
About that Secret Service thing with the hair pulling, I saw that the other day, but I'm not sure those are SS guys doing the pulling. They may have been supporters, or campaign workers, but I've never seen a SS guy that old. The one pulling hair had all white hair.
Not that it makes it any better, but I kinda doubt the SS resorts to schoolyard stunts.
Call me an optimist.
Are you suggesting we just ignore them?
No, Alan. I'm saying that attacking countries that are run by people who have no known ties to Al Qaeda is not the best way to find them. And how do you find them?
Tell me. How do you find them?
pie! cervantes! Incognito!
"By the way kei and yuri and langley and the rest of the gang, do you have to reach consensus to post or can any one of you speak for the collective? Just wondering."
cervantes finally nudged an answer out of kei/yuri. They are a collective. When they post 'as' whatever, they either speak for the collective or not.
Now. Understand? (Muttering off into the distance, nursing a small Bushmill's, crosspurposes, talking at, goodness.)
Here's the goods on Bush sweeping Hart-Rudman under the rug.
Check out the quotes - like this Newt gem from 2001:
"The administration actually slowed down response to Hart-Rudman when momentum was building in the spring," says Gingrich.
also...
The Hart-Rudman Commission had specifically recommended that the issue of terrorism was such a threat it needed far more than FEMA's attention.
and...
"Frankly, the White House shut it down," Hart says. "The president said 'Please wait, we're going to turn this over to the vice president. We believe FEMA is competent to coordinate this effort.' And so Congress moved on to other things, like tax cuts and the issue of the day."
________________
...Bush said on May 8, 2001 that the terror threat was "NOT IMMEDIATE"
check the link...
Yea, kill the animals. That pretty much sums up the transcendence of the stupid.
Back in September, 2001, I was around a lot of people who were within blocks of the World Trade Center when the planes hit and the towers collapsed.
It seems to me that those who were there were the least likely people to develop the "kill the animals" mentality. I think those of us who actually saw people falling from 100 stories and realized that so many people were dying right before our eyes were much less likely to wish that fate on other innocent people.
Conversely, it seems that the farther away people were, the more likely they were to be angry and homicidal. I think watching the explosions over and over and over again on television screwed up a lot of people. It was a perfect example of the dehumanizing effect of the medium.
TOW -
Amen to that. Mr. Kate and I do pray, right before bed, aloud, together, holding hands. We've been praying for Patrick Fitzgerald every night for months now.
And then we always add this: "You are a God of Justice. Please strengthen and give courage to everyone in the world who is fighting for justice, and help them raise their voices. Tangle the steps and blind the sight of those who are planning injustice. Help deliver us from evil. Amen."
I say kill the animals that try to kill us.
Leave my right-wingnut brethern alone!
cervantes finally nudged an answer out of kei/yuri. They are a collective. When they post 'as' whatever, they either speak for the collective or not.
Just for the record, I speak for all the voices in my head. Even the ones that stutter, you have no idea how annoying that is.
Tell me. How do you find them?
Pie, they were all over Afganistan. I'll not apologize for going into Afganistan and kicking some ass. We should have been even more efficient.
Clinton was pretty impotent with his methods.
Asking personal questions of kei & yuri is not a good idea. I saw g-dwina do that once and man it was brutal.
go to http://www.counterpunch.com/
read cockburn's essay on the kerry campaign and its new member from the failed duke campaign, james sasso.
tell me if you think alex has it accurately.
i think he does.
i think ke is lamer even than the duke. 'cause ke has more ammo against georgie porgie than the duke ever had on his dad. why does the ke campaign refuse to load and fire their weapons?
i recommend that you start rehearsing the horst wessel song. only a few more days and you will have to be singing it correctly or face the consequences.
Ah, I see, GWPDA. I forgot about k & y's use of langley, so I thought he was referring to everyone here, and that didn't make sense.
Thanks for the explanation. Around here you need a scorecard to keep track of the players.
from Howard Dean, no less
"The Republicans have the best propaganda out there since Lenin, and they just make stuff up and they keep repeating it, and hope people are going to believe it."
Right wingers celebrate 9/11
Lefties Morn 9/11
Why is this?
---------
Because it was Blue states that got hit. Now if Houston, Birmingham, or Memphis were attacked...
Howard Dean is the man. I am still bummed he is not our candidate. Kerry carries so much baggage that Howard wouldn't have.
Howard knows how to go for the jugular. Kerry hasn't had a press conference for a month because he is afraid of swift boat questions.
Howard wouldn't be bringing in tainted Clinton operatives. I think the Clintonites have a air of sleazyness about them.
Pie, they were all over Afganistan. I'll not apologize for going into Afganistan and kicking some ass. We should have been even more efficient.
What, you mean bombing the shit out of even more people who didn't have a pot to piss in much less any connection to the attack on 9/11 or actually whacking the dudes who ordered and planned the attack? Because we did way too little of the latter, but kicked some serious ass on the former.
Here's what I never could understand. Why did we go into Afghanistan and, by fiat, attack al Qaeda like it was just another invasion of a country? It wasn't. Despite the support the Taliban might have given al Aqeda, the fact remains that Osama's boys were independent workers. Here we are, with the best trained and best equipped military in the world - with a whole shitload of walking badasses like SEALs and Marines and Rangers and whatnot - why couldn't we just had a quick strike against the head of al Qaeda? Take the time, set up the shot and take it?
Why in the hell did we have to bomb the living shit out of a bunch of poor bastards who've been kicked in the nuts repeatedly by the world powers in the past 20 years? Just to satisfy a need for revenge and good ol' American bloodthirst?
Alan you're full of it. Every time Clinton talked about terrorism, he was told he was focusing on it too much, amid cries of wag the dog. The republica-controlled Congress would have NEVER given him authority to go into Afghanistan. It wouldn't have suited their political purposes because it would have given Gore the edge in the 2000 campaign.
Were you conscious during those years?
The trolls really reek of desperation.
Do the rightwing trolls think that by writing insane things all day that somehow we are going to be distracted or converted? It's amazing to me that these morons waste their fucked up little lives here. I guess if you are lonely and completely dysfunctional, you have nothing to lose. I can't imagine needing attention so much that you will go somewhere and purposely try to get negative attention. Reminds me of autistic children mixed in with the regular population of grade school.
OT: does anyone else notice how EXPENSIVE supermarket food is getting? Gas prices at the top of the chain are affecting everything!
Thank you George Bush!
Alan, Harkin was opposed to going into Afghanistan? How do you know that?
WHat Backslider said, too. And remember, the real culprits had already left Afghanistan, scattering to the four winds, because they knew what was coming once 9/11 went down.
I too supported going to war in Afghanistan. I remember arguing on usenet with someone who opposed the war. I said that I was uncomfortable with the idea of someone like Bush, who detested "nation building" launching a war against Afghanistan because it wouldn't solve the problem. I remember closing that post with something like, surely even Bush wouln't be so irresponsible as to fight the war without then stabilizing the country.
I was wrong. Bush's actions in Afghanstan didn't do anything to lessen the terrorist threat. I don't think Bush intended it to do so. He did it to buy time with the American public so that he could invade Iraq and liberate the oil fields, show up daddy, and allow the neocons to realize their Likud-inspired fantasies.
Who says we went out of our way to kill civilians in Afganistan? I'm sure civilians died but we killed alot of combatants. Which way did the refugees go after the war? Out of Afganistan or into Afganistan?
Who says we went out of our way to kill civilians in Afganistan? I'm sure civilians died but we killed alot of combatants. Which way did the refugees go after the war? Out of Afganistan or into Afganistan?
Chance -
They think they will demoralize us, so we will stop beating the bushes (ha!) to get an all-time record turn-out at the polls.
Of course, they are just like their Dear Leader. W = Wrong.
Lucy, I love Howard Dean but he couldn't win the primaries.
Your dreams of grandeur for him are delusional. Get over it.
Clinton was pretty impotent with his methods.
Wrong. Not only did the Clinton Administration develop an effective plan for fighting terror over the years (and I'm not going to bother with all the references - you seem like a smart laddy, find 'em yourself*), he left a detailed battleplan, complete with "X"'s marking the spot for Condi-liar and her husband to follow, a plan they proceeded to use to wipe their asses with.
Try doing a little fact-checking next time...
*OK, here's a hint: start with Age of Sacred Terror...
via AP/CBS
"Also in Baghdad, a U.S. warplane launched an airstrike on militants loyal to rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr on Saturday as American and Iraqi forces attacked militants hunkered down in the sprawling eastern Baghdad slum of Sadr City."
What a total clusterfuck.
My Pet Goat would win the US Election.
Your dreams of grandeur for (Dean) are delusional.
Actually, I see Dean doing very, very well in a behind-the-scenes mode in the next few years...
He did it to buy time with the American public
Yes.
9/11 changed nothing. An invasion of Iraq was an administration desiderata from Day One.
I see no evidence this administrtion gives a shit about terrorism except insofar as it helps them at the polls.
but we killed alot of combatants
And we created hundreds, thousands more when we invaded Iraq.
How many of the prisoners at Guantanamo are *combatants*?
Uh oh, here's a FOURTH party candidate:
HoneyBun 4 President...
http://www.81x.com/GuitarRanger/
...Bun_4_President
I'll not apologize for going into Afganistan and kicking some ass.
It always comes back to "kicking ass" for guys like you, doesn't it. Have you ever considered that kicking ass by itself isn't enough and that it might make things worse if it is done thoughtlessly. That's exactly what happened in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
Were you conscious during those years?
Clinton didn't do shit against terrorism. Hell we backed the KLA in Kosovo. We bombed Yugoslavia for 70+ days, we bombed infrastructure, we killed civilans. Yugoslavia did nothing to us.
I'm supposed to care if a few die in Afganistan when we clean out the rats?
I remember that day as the day my wife woke me up with, "A plane just flew into the World Trade Center." My reation was, "You've gotta be fucking kidding me!" I got up in time to watch the second plane fly into the WTC.
I remembered seeing Dan Rather going to interview some nut named Bin Laden in a cave in Afghanistan, and remembered a bombing attempt on the WTC, but "Al Quaeda" wasn't part of my vocabulary on that day.
So where was the FBI and the Bush administration when these people were in the US, learning to fly planes but not land them? Sitting there with their thumbs up their butts?
Actually, I see Dean doing very, very well in a behind-the-scenes mode in the next few years...
I agree, but whining that he's not the candidate is just silly.
Like I said. I supported going to way in Afghanistan, but I was wrong. I should not have trusted Bush to act rationally and do it right.
In an interview, Karl Rove desribed his strategy as basically, attack your enemy's strong point -- for Kerry, its military heroism.
The funny thing is, Bush doesn't have a strong point. He is marketed as a plain talkin' war president but on any level that is entirely phoney. He has done a terrible job on the war, by any standard.
With even a fraction of the pounding that Kerry has received from the Swift boat liars, Bush would fall apart.
Alan, read the 9/11 commission report, please, and then get back to us.
Under Clinton, those respoNsible for the first Trade Center bombing were caught. Imagine that. And they foiled, through hard work and sheer luck, the LAX bombing.
Bush was the president on 9/11. He had ignored Tenet and Clarke's warnings and the Aug 6th PDB. He fucking did nothing.
Nothing.
Airplane facts -
3 airplanes flew into buildings on 9/11/2001. 0 airplanes were flown by the Iraq government of Saddam Hussein when their nation came under attack in March of 2003. Not 1 airplane left the ground to defend their nation.
I was just watching Hardball. They had a good panel of 9/11 commissioners. They agreed that these terrorists want to kill us. Period.
How do you reason with these guys patriotboy? I'm for exterminating them. If we hadn't invaded Iraq and concentrated on Afgan, we would be in pretty good shape now.
My opinion.
...whining that he's not the candidate is just silly.
Yeah, but I was directing my comment at someone with a brain in their head!
"Back in September, 2001, I was around a lot of people who were within blocks of the World Trade Center when the planes hit and the towers collapsed.
It seems to me that those who were there were the least likely people to develop the "kill the animals" mentality. "
What he said. Also, probably more likely to be actually concerned with what is being done to improve homland security and get the ones responsible, rather than spew ingnorant shit about 'islamofascism' and argue for invading Iraq. It was pressure from the 9/11 families to get the commission going. The 101st keyboarders didn't want to hear about it.
Clinton didn't do shit against terrorism.
BZZZZZZZZZT! Sorry, no. Thanks for playing. Johnny, get him the fuck out of here...
Kind of weird that most of the 9/11 murderers were Saudis, but Bush attacked Afghanistan and Iraq.
Patriotboy just sent me an email asking if I would be interested in anal.
No. Now stop asking!
Yes, Alan, you are supposed to care when a few innocent Afghans die. It should upset you, on some level. I know they're not quite as white as the Serbs that Clinton bombed, but you should care anyway. I realize I'm talking to a freeper, but even a freeper should have some sense of humanity and decency, at least sometimes.
Well, it looks like you won that argument, Patriotboy.
meant lanny...Oh well, the joke is ruined anyway
Under Clinton, those respoNsible for the first Trade Center bombing were caught. Imagine that. And they foiled, through hard work and sheer luck, the LAX bombing.
Yeah the foot soldiers were caught .... after the fact. LAX was sheer luck, you got that right. We didn't even know what we had stopped for months.
Clinton didn't do shit. The 9/11 guys were in country during his term. I'll say again. Going into Afganistan was a good thing. At least the bad guys are running.
Tuned into the 9/11 memorials today but had to turn off the TV because I couldn't stand to watch that sanctimoniuos Bush pretending to look somber. Fact of the matter is Bush didn't do his job and people died. I hope that during the debates Kerry brings up the fact that Bush did nothing in the months leading up to 9/11 to protect the country from terrorism. The myth that Bush will keep America safe from terrorism must be debunked.
We didn't even know what we had stopped for months.
Where are you getting your facts?
My God.
Tuned into the 9/11 memorials today but had to turn off the TV because I couldn't stand to watch that sanctimoniuos Bush pretending to look somber. Fact of the matter is Bush didn't do his job and people died. I hope that during the debates Kerry brings up the fact that Bush did nothing in the months leading up to 9/11 to protect the country from terrorism. The myth that Bush will keep America safe from terrorism must be debunked.
I'm supposed to care if a few die in Afganistan when we clean out the rats?
Kill the innocent to get to the guilty?
I seem to remember this happening in Philadelphia (if memory serves). Dropped a satchel bomb on a building with alleged criminals in it, destroyed the entire neighborhood by fire. Killed a lot of innocent people.
Oh, got the "criminals," too. Not one of law enforcement's finest hours.
But wrecking Afghanistan to get at al Qaeda was, as one British official called it, like striking mercury with a hammer.
After Afghanistan? Madrid. Indonesia. Iraqi insurgents. The Taliban returning to power outside of Kabul (the only part we control). Bin Laden still wild and free. Al Qaeda more respected and feared and better known than ever.
Yeah, that was one hell of a good plan, invading Afghanistan. And then dropping that mess to create a new one in Iraq! Positive genius!
Actually, they're not facts. They're fact-esque.
And remember, the real culprits had already left Afghanistan, scattering to the four winds, because they knew what was coming once 9/11 went down.
pie
I disagree. They were still there when we attacked--they got away when the Pentagon, ordered by Bush at the behest of Pakistan, created a safe corridor allowing Taliban and Al Qaeda high rankers to escape to the Pakistani frontier. US forces were not permitted to check or otherwise impede the outgoing flights. Naturally, it was Hersh in the New Yorker that broke this story.
I agree with the others in here, that we had to do Afghanistan. But from the very beginning I constantly muttered, "Bush is gonna fuck this up...Bush is gonna fuck this up..."
nobody's pet goat
I'm not heartless, just trying to say we are killing bad guys in Afganistan. I said ahead of time I am not as anti-war as most on this board. Duh. Were you pro Kosovo war?
And by the way, take your freeper shit and jam it.
Going into Afganistan was a good thing. At least the bad guys are running.
Running Afghanistan (opium sales are up again, prices down worldwide). Running Iraq.
But not running from us. Not in the least.
Hell, we can't even run all of Baghdad. And even the Pentagon acknowledges we don't have control of the country.
Running? Yeah. But not in the direction we intended.
And, damn, after all of this, I find that I still have this real strong inclination to move to Pincher Creek and be declared, personally, hors de combat. Whom to hurt? What group is more despicable to which other one? Which one is bringing more horror than another?
This is the work of the devil - no, not the born-agains' marshmallow viewpoint, but the true, horrible, anno horribilus.
There is no 'success' in any of this. There is death and despair and hatred and horror. No winners. Anyone who would, at this late state, imagine that there are 'sides' or 'triumphs' hasn't been paying attention and isn't aware of the penalty.
Pfui.
So i'm at a party and i strike up a conversation with a young lady of the type that we don't 'see' at Eschaton, completely uninterested in politics.
She didn't like news channels, no CNN, MSNBC, or even FOX for her, her news came from sound bites, on "newsbreaks" between commercials, or at the top of the hour on popular radio.
So, this young woman is relatively uninformed, and definitely incurious.
She didn't seem excited about the election, didn't like Kerry, and didn't like Bush.
She couldn't even tell me of any policy differences between them(!)
Then she says, "How come when we were in Afghanistan, going after Bin-Ladin, how come we drop all that and went to Iraq? They didn't attack us did they? I mean he(Bush) just switched all this (our military, anti-terrorism efforts) onto Iraq. It doesn't make any sense."
I realized something, here's a young woman with no information to hand, and no curiosity, and even she can figure out that Bush gave us all a cynical bait and switch in the Iraq invasion.
She mentioned that she was thinking of voting for Kerry, although she wasn't too fond of him, strictly because of Bush's Iraq invasion.
(I should say that this is a very red state, and likely to stay that way.)
So, take heart and have some faith in your fellow Americans, if she has figured it out, others have too.
grr, I've read that many of Bin Laden's top people left Afghanistan before the war started. But yes, he and others did manage to escape capture anyway after we bombed the shit out of the country.
LAX was sheer luck
Because Clinton was actually TRYING to catch terrorists!
And it was sheer luck that the al Qaida plan to blow up 12 planes over the Pacific was stopped. Because Clinton was "shaking the trees"!
So Bush didn't do shit and the 9-11 attackks were just bad luck. Sheesh.
Where are you getting your facts?
The 9/11 commission report. Are they liars too?
I'm supposed to care if a few die in Afganistan when we clean out the rats?
Alan | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:56 pm | #
Well, no, you're not supposed to care if innocent people die, but it's sorta nice. And I'm not supposed to be impressed by your big-dick theory of foreign policy, but hey...viva la differance, ya know?
Now, dig this, son, because obviously you're not tuned into the proper wave. No one, and I mean no one has said we shouldn't have done anything to the planners and masterminds of 9/11. What some of us have a problem with is how it was carried out. We managed to bomb the living shit out of a bunch of poor bastards who's only crime was living in a country that had at one time housed some vicious motherfuckers who desperately were asking for an ass-kicking. The Taliban is still a force in Afghanistan. We basically control Kabul and, beyond that, jack and shit, and jack long ago left town. al Qaeda is still a problem and, fuck me, but no one seems to know where that darn ol' Osama character's hanging his hat these days.
So we blew up a bunch of people in Afghanistan who had nothing at all to do with 9/11. If I'm reading you right, you're saying we're justified in "kicking some ass" on them because, well, they live there. That's basically like saying we should kill every man, woman and child in the great state of Mississippi because of the Klan.
As I said, none of us are saying or have ever said no action was justified in response to 9/11. What we're saying is there were better ways than doing what amounts to whipping our nuclear-tipped cock out and pissing on some folks. Same thing in Iraq, really. Saddam's a "bad man", sure, but there's still a lot of Iraqi blood on Lady MacBeth's hands. As my old pappaw used to tell me, "When you're up to your ass in alligators, remember who's bright idea it was to drain the swamp."
And, for the record, those of us unpleased with how Afghanistan was carried out weren't too damn happy with how Kosovo was carried out. I sometimes wonder how long it'll take humanity to move past the idea that killing the citizens of a country is okay as long as you disagree with their leader's actions or ideologies.
I agree with the others in here, that we had to do Afghanistan. But from the very beginning I constantly muttered, "Bush is gonna fuck this up...Bush is gonna fuck this up..."
So was it worth it?
I'm not heartless, just trying to say we are killing bad guys in Afganistan.
"Daisy-cutters" don't distinguish between "bad guys" and the innocent.
The strategy in Afghanistan has been: "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out."
As you said: "I'm supposed to care if a few die in Afganistan when we clean out the rats?" But, of course, you aren't heartless. So, yes, you are supposed to care. Unless you consider everyone in Afghanistan guilty.
By which logic, we should also have bombed Florida....
pie: Fair enough.
"American civil liberties have been trashed by the so-called "Patriot Act" and yet Americans act as if nothing has changed. They beg for new restrictions on their freedom because the federal government's trained dogs at the so-called "Homeland Security" office play with colors and attempt to keep people in line politically through fear."
One of the ironies post 9/11 is that you constantly hear Bush administration officials saying something similar to, "The terrorists attacked America because of our freedoms." Then they turn around and get laws passed that trash freedom. And they use fear of terrorism for political purposes.
Honestly, I think 9/11 occurred, in part, because the US is so open. OTOH, I don't want my civil liberties curtailed in the hope that future terrorist attacks will be prevented.
"This administration talks about "Islamic Fundamentalist" terrorists."
This administration is composed of neocon ideologues and religious fundamentalists. Frankly, if there's a group of people who ought to understand "Islamic fundamentalists," it's this group of Christian fundamentalists.
"By which logic, we should also have bombed Florida...."
Mexico. It would have made as much sense. But the thing of it is, death doesn't make much sense. Never will.
More whiskey, barkeep.
The 9/11 commission report.
The King James version?
Fucking hell, man...I know it's fall and I know what fancy a young man's heart turns to when the leaves fall from the trees, but for the love of Lee Dorsey, war ain't a fucking football game. Is it just me, beloved, am I just wacky in thinking there's something seriously wrong that, here in the 21st century, we as a species still have no problem killing innocent people in another land in the name of "striking back"? Or "showing strenghth"? Do people in other countries do this still? Is there anything under the sun dumber than hating someone because of his/her nationality and thinking his/her death is no worries because someone of his/her nationality did something nasty?
It boggles my mind, I'm tellin' y'all.
My god the absolute hatred by the right on America and it's democratic values is unbelievable. They truly want a war. Not just a culture war but a war. They feel they are IN A WAR but against Americans (which now comprise a higher majority than republicans in America)
They are no longer American when they espouse such hatred for our civil liberties, our Constitution and our nation as a whole. That they would use fear to govern rather than freedom. The moment that happens it becomes a tyranny as Jefferson described not just upon man but upon the mind of man.
This is hopeless. The Taliban was shielding al Qaeda. I'm not sorry we went into Afganistan.
Were you guys crying as loud when Clinton went into Kosovo? 70+ days of bombing, lots of innocents killed.
If you weren't crying as loud, 2 words .... stupid hypocrite. We went into Kosovo for humanitarian reasons. We weren't attacked, 3000+ people didn't die.
U.S. Servicemen React to Bush Guard Memos
Ignore the brownshirt.
And to whomever was able to find this op/ed(in homepage on the bushist/facist state, here is another piece...
"The Bushist movement also entails the destruction of ordinary politics. Any opposition to the "single sustainable model" -- even the timid deviations offered by the thoroughly corporatized Democrats -- must be crushed, and relentlessly demonized as an "attack on America from within," as the Bushists declared at their convention. Even the democratic process itself -- the Constitutionally mandated presidential election -- was scorned from the podium as nothing more than a "manic obsession to bring down our commander in chief." Thus the very idea of free, contested elections -- "the consent of the governed" -- is now openly dismissed as a dangerous notion, a sign of mental illness."
pie,
At this point, no, I can't say Afghanistan was worth it. When I say "We had to do it," that was with the assumption that Afghanistan would be where we trapped Al Qaeda and OBL. Bush Cheneyed it up. Big time. In fact, I don't think they even really tried to get it right. Afghanistan was just the pregame for Iraq.
Do people in other countries do this still?
Some of the countries with more luridly violent and invader-prone pasts, had finally given it up. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany: the Viking lands, and more recently, Nazi, in the case of Germany.
Some seem merely to be on hiatus.
Others, like the U.S., still think it's a great idea, and that 'dying' for your country is noble. Although, as even G.S. Patton pointed out, what you're supposed to do is make some other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.
'cept we aren't even doing that anymore. We're makin' em die for their religion. That's war without end, amen. People will give up, eventually, on war as a way of national life. They may even give up on religion. But they'll do the latter only voluntarily. Kill them for it, they'll never stop believing.
Or plotting vengeance.
An eye for an eye is a real killer of a foreign policy. Leaves the world blind, and that will include "the good guys."
Gah...dumb motherfucker. Pay attention, please. No one is saying going into Afghanistan was a "mistake". What we're saying - and I'll use small words - it was done badly. It could have been done better. Jack shit was accomplished apart from a lot of dead people who had nothing to do with anything but trying to scratch out a living in a shitholed part of the world.
Sweet leapin' Levon Helm...y'all, I think I understand why a good part of world thinks Americans are arrogant assholed. Dead innocent are only worth worrying about if they're our dead innocent.
Remember John O'Neill, the man who tried to prevent 911:
THE BALLAD OF JOHN O'NEILL
EULOGY FOR THE MAN WHO TRIED TO PREVENT 911
Some words of wisdom from one who knows:
"War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it."
"War is at best barbarism...its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."
So sayeth William Tecumseh Sherman. Mention his name in certain parts of the fine state of Georgia is tantamount to saying "Please, sir, stomp my nuts up into my abdominal cavity. Would saying I dry-stuck your sister be of any encouragement?"
No because they'd accuse you of fucking their wives!
BTW, I like the way the brownshirts always start shedding tears when talking about the innocents that died in Kosovo, while pumping thier fists in the air when talking about all the dead civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq... of course, the fact that Kosovans are usually white and Iraqis and Afghans aren't has absolutely positively nothing to do with it...
Dean blasts Bush at Brown - AP
Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean addresses an audience on the campus of Brown University in Providence, R.I., Thursday. Dean, a former Democratic presidential hopeful, spoke about the presidential campaign and criticized policies of the Bush administration.
PROVIDENCE, R.I. One-time Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean Thursday accused President George W. Bush of dishonesty that the former governor says has led to the deaths of 1,000 soldiers in Iraq.
"The president has said a lot of things that are untrue," Dean said in an interview before addressing a crowd of about 800 at Brown University.
"The Republicans have the best propaganda out there since Lenin, and they just make stuff up and they keep repeating it, and hope people are going to believe it," he told The Associated Press.
Dean also charged that Bush has "totally mismanaged" the military.
"I think that George Bush is certainly going to have a draft if he goes into a second term, and any young person that doesn't want to go to Iraq might think twice about voting for him," he said.
In fact, I don't think they even really tried to get it right. Afghanistan was just the pregame for Iraq.
It sure got the bloodlust going, too. In that regard, it was a success, wasn't it?
Damn.
Dead innocent are only worth worrying about if they're our dead innocent.
well, we know the body count on dead Americans in Iraq, including contractors and civilians.
What's the body count on civilian Iraqis? Who is reporting it?
I suspect the number is known in non-U.S. press reports. But, as the press often reports in a tragedy on foreign soil: "No Americans involved." And that usually ends the story.
HEY BACKSLIDER! I've seen you mention Lemmy several times. Are you a big fan? Tell me down thread or e-mail me. I might have a little thing about him to tell you.
RMJ-I think you are right on about religious war. The more martyrs created, the more willing to take their place. Anyone with a passing knowledge of the history of Christianity knows how martyrdom intensified the early Church. The Roman church was able to stomp out a few heretical sects, like gnosticism and the albegenses, but those were pretty exclusive clubs.
Oh.
My.
Fucking.
God.
That last Dean line is incredible. It's a bit on the cheney-ish side of our Left as far as drumming up excitement in the base but it's a doozy. I think the difference is true however.
Dean speaks the truth. We WILL have a draft if they get in again although my fear is that Iraq and the world situation is SO FUCKED UP after 4 years of bush that we may have to increase our troop level no matter what to protect us from what will surely be a shitstorm for the next 25 years.
Cheney's speech was promoting fear about what COULD happen. We all COULD die in suicide bombings at the local Wal-Mart if John Kerry, that liberal from Taxachussets were elected.
What a person may or may not due because of how YOU perceive them is quite a fictional construct.
Seeing that America WILL need military power due to the miserable failure is just an accurate analysis of the current situation.
The fact that we ARE in a backdoor draft right now with about 1% slack in our current military readiness only proves Dean's message.
But the documents were forged!
I always like the framing:
We either should or should not have gone into Afghanistan.
If you have a problem with Iraq, then you want SH in power.
Lets not discuss that there was a right and wrong way to take down the Taliban and the AQ bases to maximize the capture of current and future terrorist.
Lets not discuss we already controlled almost two thirds of Iraq's land area via our no fly zones. That many experts felt the fall of SH would probably lead to a breakup of the country into three within ten years.
Remove the framing, and the supporters are left without an argument.
This from bitch drudge:
"Terror attacks raise fears of a more authoritarian Kremlin policy, friction with West..."
The Kremlin came out and said it would go after "terrorists wherever they may be."
Has the bitch ever linked to a story about how "Terror attacks raise fears of a more authoritarian Washington policy, friction with East...?"
Fuck no. This is his own fucking country and he refuses.
Sorry for going OT on this, folks, by this ol' boy needs to put The Preacher back in the box and calm himself with more pleasent thoughts, such as the glory that is Motorhead.
R.L.,
I am a major-league fan of Mr. Kilmister and his boys. Big-time Motorheadbanger, and Lemmy's slash-and-burn bass style has had serious impact on how I approach playing your faster rock & roll bass guitar. One of the coolest moments of my otherwise humble existence was a two-hour face-to-face interview with The Man Himself a few years back. He is a true gentleman, scholar, seeker and rock & roller all in one warty package. Very cool dude.
A draft is inevitable if Bush wins.
McCain was quoted by Bob Herbert as admitting the "open secret" of Washington (and why isn't this one being reported?): that we will be in Iraq for 10 to 20 years.
A volunteer army ain't gonna serve that. How many more do you think will volunteer to be car-bomb fodder? A draft is not only inevitable, but necessary.
and that's when the sh*t hits the fan. But it'll be too late. Unfortunately.
As for the "religious war" bit: yup. Nationalism is a motivator, but religious faith transcends political boundary and time. Attack an Englishman, what do I care (my ancestry is largely English)? Attack a Christian, and I may feel aggrieved (as, indeed, many fundie Xians in this country now do). Who fights for Babylon anymore? But people over centuries have fought for church or mosque or synagogue.
Not a war you can win.
Big-time Motorheadbanger, and Lemmy's slash-and-burn bass style has had serious impact on how I approach playing your faster rock & roll bass guitar
nuttin nastier than Lemmy --- saw him a year ago in an old metalhead show --- he's still got it
"make your lawn turn brown from the sound"
Sez Dean:
I think that George Bush is certainly going to have a draft if he goes into a second term, and any young person that doesn't want to go to Iraq might think twice about voting for him.
Worth repeating, especially since voter turnout among draft-age men is abysmally low.
Hey cannon fodder, you'd best not sit this one out. Get out and VOTE this time, please.
HEY BACKSLIDER! I've seen you mention Lemmy several times. Are you a big fan? Tell me down thread or e-mail me. I might have a little thing about him to tell you.
I supported stopping the killing in Yugo, but not by bombing Serbian cities. I was in agreement with Gen. Clark that we needed to put some troops on the ground there, but he was overruled by NATO (if I remember correctly). If we needed to go into Afghanistan, we needed to do the job ourselves, and not with proxies whose loyalties were suspect. With the number of troops and support in Iraq now, Afghanistan might not have been the mess it is now.
Jack, WTF is your problem?
What we're saying - and I'll use small words - it was done badly.
No shit. I said that from the beginning. Maybe you should read what I said before sliming me ==> Steven D.,
Agreed. With all our resources in Afganistan, it would be a pretty peaceful place now.
Germany is already there, maybe France would even help out.
Alan | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:32 pm | #
HEY BACKSLIDER! I've seen you mention Lemmy several times. Are you a big fan? Tell me down thread or e-mail me. I might have a little thing about him to tell you.
dean has the right tack with respect to attacking the preznut
if you want your sons/children to be drafted into a terrible war, vote Bobo
if you want your health premiums to go up over 10% a year, vote Bobo
if you want to keep paying an unfair percentage of the tax burden, vote Bobo
if you want to be less safe because of Bobo's misguided foreign policy, vote Bobo
if you want your children locked out of higher education, vote Bobo
if you want your country further divided, vote Bobo
if you want your wages to decrease against the tide of inflation and the cost of living, vote for bobo
it's simple math
No shit. I said that from the beginning. Maybe you should read what I said before sliming me
Well, hey, hombre...I wasn't the one who said dead Afghanistanis weren't something to "care" about. And in any event, it isn't that how the actual operation in Afghanistan was carried out, it's that the Powers That Be carried out that cut-and-burn technique in the first fucking place. And, yes, I felt the same way about Kosovo and marched in marches to protest it, before you ask.
There were other options rather than just bombing the piss out of Afghanistan. We didn't take them. That was bad.
R.L.
Quit hitting "refresh", daddy-o. It makes the Baby Philthy cry.
Germany is already there, maybe France would even help out.
France had troops there, did they all leave?
France had troops there, did they all leave?
No, no, no.
The French are "cheese-eating surrender monkeys," remember?
more republican dirty tricks via
http://www.electoral-vote.com:
Pushed by poll, state Democrat pushes back
Aug. 31, 2004
...
The question, as Krajewski wrote in his affidavit: "Whose position do you think is closer to the truth - those 'veterans who served with John Kerry' and say that he does not deserve the medals that he received, or John Kerry who disagrees with the veterans that he served with and who appear in the ad?"
http://www.jsonline.com/news/met...ug04/
255181.asp
Paris, July 8, 2004
1) Today, about 34.000 troops are deployed overseas out of which 11.000 are participating in peace-keeping operations :
- in Afghanistan 1,500 (9% of ISAF) including the contributions to the training of the new Afghan army, and those to Enduring Freedom on the ground (special forces), at sea (3 frigates, 1 tanker and 1 Maritime Patrol Aircraft) or in the air (2 transport aircraft)
So you see the French ARE already in Afghanistan, it's funny that you seemed ignorant about this.
Bleikker, I was just going to post that!!
Well, Here's the link.
ALan, you could have found it, too, if you'd looked.
It's obvious that Alan is just blowing smoke.
Sorry guys. The very existence of Lemmy is like to turn me sterile.
pie,
Wow, the same page. It's nice that you posted the link.
Sorry guys. The very existence of Lemmy is like to turn me sterile.
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:01 pm | #
Well, ain't it too late for that?
Uh, yep. My job's done. Sorry. Lemmy and his warts can do as they will.
I'm supposed to care if a few die in Afganistan when we clean out the rats?
Alan
If you were a human being with an ounce of empathy you would.
Since you're not, I'll have to assume you believe that we should kill off whole people's who "we" decide are dangerous.
What happens if someone decides that you are dangerous? would it be okay to exterminate you? Many afghanis and iraqis see america as the big danger. After all, we invaded their countries and blew up everything in site for things they (ordinary citizens) couldn't do anything about. And hell, america is likely to keep on doing it. So wouldn't they be justified for thinking that america is so dangerous it should be wiped off the face of the earth?
Flawed logic you think? well, so is yours asshole.
Atrios, aka Duncan,
Worth a mention. Kristin Gore has written a novel, reviewed by the NY Times. The women who was able to sit by a typewriter, focus to develop a plotline, get a publisher and editor, and do what has to be done to create a written work. The Bush girls couldn't get work as Harlem nursery school teachers, figure out the correct 15% tip for a bar tab, or chose outfits for the convention that weren't nixed by their grandmother.
Hummm, I have seen Motorhead once (they opened for Alice Cooper (1998?). I also saw Hawkwind once (sans Lemmy--that was a trippy show).
This French-bashing is embarrassing and totally uncalled for. Those who engage in it are ignorant, immature brats who disgrace this country.
And yeah, I'm talking to you, you stupid repugs.
Sorry about the repostings! Backslider! The cable channel "TRIO" had a concert film yesterday that was a 2003 reunion of MC-5. Jack White played the whole set with them.They had guest vocalists and Lemmy did a great Sister Anne. Kick-ass hour. Yesterday was the first time it played so it will be in rotation several times. If you are a big fan of him and don't get Trio I taped it and would be more than happy to send you a copy.I could add other things Trio has done on Robert Johnson, The Great Muddy, John Lee Hooker,ect.If you come back at me I will be several minutes behind as I have to reload. If you want e-mail me! KICK OUT THE JAMS MOTHERFUCKER!
Remember...
electoral-vote.com has Kerry up by 40 electoral votes.
It looks like Bush has a verifiable lead of 2 or 3 points nationally, but that he's clearly losing the battleground states.
I still think it's a serious problem that the media is focusing on skewed polls which favor Bush. Even though the polls are inaccurate, it allows them to portray Kerry as faltering or weak.
KICK OUT THE JAMS (brother's and sister's).
Hehe.
Wow, the same page.
Yes, google pages created expressly for democrats and other like-minded individuals. That's why Alan couldn't find it.
*rolls eyes*
R.L.,
I wouldn't mind hearing "Sister Anne" via Lemmy's croak. One of my favorite Five tunes, at that. Click on the homepage, you'll find an email address there. I'll address the whole situation when I'm of a less-altered state of being. Thanks.
Backslider,
Thersites says we're not allowed to take our Motorhead argument public. I'm just scarred by years of metalhead boys on the schoolbus, really.
Does the rightwing know that Rush and Hannity and others are previously failed broadcasters that are using hate to boost ratings. This is the lowest form of entertainment. Just like Fox and the rest of the cable clones. These people would rather have yelling heads for ratings than pay reporters to do their jobs.
The problem is that it has helped to deeply divide the nation at a time when it should be uniting to solve problems.
Rush and others started using the frustration of the lower and middle class and manipulated them to focus on Clinton and "Liberals" as a scapegoat. He has even managed to get people to argue and vote against their own best interests.
Most of Rush's audience is lower middle class. Without knowing it, most of them are living a liberal lifestyle.
I can't wait until all the things they take for granted are taken away by the very people they are so rabidly supporting now.
Do you think my kids used to have to sell every piece of shit on earth door to door to neighbors to have things in school?
Guess what? You are going to pay the same amount of taxes with the rightwingers as you are with a liberal. The difference is that you aren't going to get any services back with the rethugs.
I can't wait for history to show what a big con all of this was.
with a whole shitload of walking badasses like SEALs and Marines and Rangers and whatnot - why couldn't we just had a quick strike against the head of al Qaeda? Take the time, set up the shot and take it?
Why in the hell did we have to bomb the living shit out of a bunch of poor bastards who've been kicked in the nuts repeatedly by the world powers in the past 20 years? Just to satisfy a need for revenge and good ol' American bloodthirst?
why am i repeating backslider? because he asks the appropriate questions, of course he answers it too. or at least provides the reason these wipes could get away with what they did.
i thought afghanistan was legit, but they went too far. the way i figure it, and what the hell do i know, i'm just some mook with a computer, aq type terrorism isn't a war as their is no nation state involved, but it is something more than a law enforcement issue, after all they are rather well trained militants. a para military action? anyway i think part of kerry's plan is to utilize spec. forces. of course now it's a bit late. bush, has fubared everything. by the way it appears aq ran into pakistan, where the bushies are making all kinds of unholy alliances, and when they brag about how many terrorists they have captured, it is mostly the pakistani's who have secured these operatives. well, i'm just a mook, but to me something smells rotten in denmark.
saw a fellow named matthew brzenzski on today. he was making the case that we have done very little to secure dangers at home. does anyone know, is he Z.brezenzski's relative?
Thersites says we're not allowed to take our Motorhead argument public. I'm just scarred by years of metalhead boys on the schoolbus, really.
Well, that I can understand. Was it them guys what had the "Def Lepperd" t-shirts cut off just above the bellybutton?
And tell Thersites to mind his own bidness. I can't help it you East Coast elitists don't know from good rock & roll.
The Taliban was shielding al Qaeda. I'm not sorry we went into Afganistan.
I'm not sorry either. But that doesn't stop me from thinking the way we did it sucked ass, or to feel bad for the ordinary people who got killed.
The clusterfuck that is afghanistan is a direct result of the incompetence of the whole bushie clan.
Uhm. To clarify, I am a Motorhead fan.
Actually, Thersites has the metalhead gene I lack. I think he may even have seem Motorhead early in our acquaintance, but I can't swear to that.
And you're right: the hair metal of the 80's is what really did me in.
charley:
Washington, D.C.: Are you related to Zbigniew Brzezinski?
Matthew Brzezinski: yes, he's my uncle, though i grew up in the Canadian branch of the family and only recently moved to DC
From a WaPo online caht.
Backslider-
George Lakoff coming up on AAR.
Thersites,
Work on your lady, man. Gotta recognize: '80s hair metal is to Motorhead as Pauly Shore is to Steve McQueen.
joe mcgee,
Groovy, thanks.
We are entering into the most treacherous shoals of our marriage here... almost as dangerous as the Public Enemy or Beastie boys whirlpools... or the Peter Gabriel quagmire...
Bush sucks!
We are entering into the most treacherous shoals of our marriage here... almost as dangerous as the Public Enemy or Beastie boys whirlpools... or the Peter Gabriel quagmire...
Thersites | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:40 pm | #
That's why you gotta clear that sorta shit up before you get the law involved in things. I've firmly decided that, from now on, music is joining religion and politics as a deal-breaker in any and all future possible romantic entanglements. And, yes, I expect to have a long row to hoe in this particular scenario.
Never forget September 11, 1857.
That day was the culmination of the infamous Mountain Meadows Massacre, where 120 men, women and children lost their lives to what were described at the time as marauding Indians. However, that turned out to be mostly false, as the local establishment apparently turned out with some Native Americans to "take care of" or "deal with" these immigrants to California.
We're nearly 150 years later and the powers that be still have not admitted *any* fault in the matter. Rather, they have committed acts of desecration upon the dead of Mountain Meadows and robbed the graves of those whose bodies they happened to run into with a backhoe. The grave goods that were discovered were not reburied with the dead but given to an Arkansas museum. Had these people from Arkansas been Native Americans, it would have been a crime.
But like everything else that has happened with Mountain Meadows over the last century and a half, the effort has been to put the Mormon Church in the best light possible, and to diminish or denigrate anyone else. So there's only one guilty person, John D. Lee, even though dozens of white males killed on that day, there's no definitive history because the Mormon Church will not let real historians look at the documents they have preserved, reserving them rather for their own hack internal historians who are trying to churn out a book that Oxford University Press might want to publish and there's no admission of guilt, no sense of repentance and certainly no realization that these things still happen in our world.
This is in the memory of those who died, in hope that those who now live can finally be forced to admit the truth of their ancestors' culpability AND LEARN FROM IT.
Backslider,
Never fear, we share enough tastes to keep us going. But we each have our own things, too (including a mutual hatred of jazz, for example). And we're on board with both politics and religion, too. Hell, you don't want to hang out with someone who's exactly like you--that' just masturbation.
You don't like jazz? My goodness...the mind reels. Hard bop or fusion, I can understand, but how can any hipster, flipster or finger-poppin' daddy not dig on Benny Goodman or Louis Armstrong?
And as for masturbation, well let's just put it this way: my right hand never tells me I "lack ambition".
They're not going to capture bin Laden...not alive, anyway.
The Bush White House was behind 9./11. I've felt that way since Day One and I still feel that way.
These creeps who stole a presidential election had to make their braindead figurehead look presidental...as well as have an excuse to starting yanking our freedoms away from us.
Hey, if a couple thousand innocent people had to die, oh well....
Besides, there's nothing but liberals, feminists and fags in New York City anyway, right?
Even if I'm wrong, they don't want bin Laden blabbing. Like Saddam Hussein, Osama knows too much!
about time that someone mentioned it...
the french had no hesitation to participate in the afghan invasion. neither did the bundesrepublik. in fact, i think that both countries still have their troops in afghanistan.
in what they viewed as an important and correct application of military effort, following the events of 11/09/01, the french and the germans were willing to invest their assets[human and financial].
i could argue with their decision in this afghan invasion, but they were willing to dance to the bush/cheney/rumsfeld tune.
so, why did they change their minds when it came to participating in the iraq invasion, do you think?
i think there are many reasons, most of them undiscussed in the jingo us media. how about these for starters...
1. surely the french sdece and the german bndd know that us forces went to great lengths not to capture al-frescos at tora bora. in fact, i believe it was the sham of that us-led attack and the allowing of al-frescos to escape without interdiction into pakistan that caused the french and german governments to begin questioning the veracity of the bush regime in all matters relating to 11/09/01.
2. beyond that virtually treasonous us military engagement, i am sure that the french and german govts understood the role of the us and the paki isi in creating the taliban, in empowering the taliban. though this issue received little attention in the us press, in the euro press there was considerable opposition to the usa allowing the pakis to facilitate so much of the taliban efforts to seize the govt of afghanistan. this euro questioning of us/isi enabling the taliban began in the reagan/bush era and continued througout the clenis regime.
as bob graham related his conversation with tommy franks concerning the re-orientation of us troops to an iraq invasion so soon after an incomplete invasion of afghanistan, surely the french and the germans saw this as well. and i would assert that the french and the germans knew that any invasion of iraq had nothing to do with al-fresco and 11/09/01.
3. now, why would they know that? it is clear from paul o'neill's recollections that iraq was targeted by bcr for an invasion within hours of the inauguration.
there is a reason that cheney fights so hard to retain the records of his extensive meetings with energy industry reps. i would be surprised if elf, total, and other european hydrocarbon companies were not included in those discussions[or were not privy to them] - after all, all were members of the angloeuro global hydrocarbon syndicate.
what was discussed at those meetings chaired by cheney? the appropriation of iraqi hydrocarbons. virtually the sole topic, as i understand it.
in addition to the appropriation, the assignment of shares in those "to be appropriated by force" hydrocarbons was dictated.
it is my understanding that the french and german reps to these meetings of the syndicate were as much intell ops as oil company emp
it is my understanding that the french and german reps to these meetings of the syndicate were as much intell ops as oil company employees.
my understanding is that the allocation of iraqi hydrocarbon resources was not favorable to the europeans.
4. and then there is the global reserve currency issue. euro versus dollar. an issue infrequently discussed in the usa. but an issue that did get air in the financial times and the european press.
just in case you don't know the story, since the bretton woods agreement after ww2, the us dollar became the world's reserve currency.
all oil transactions were denominated in the dollar. you could not buy oil with francs or dmarks. if you were not the united states, you would have to exchange your currency for dollars to make the transaction.
it was this power that allowed the usa to control the planet.
as long as there was no other currency of equivalent stature, the dollar preserved its eminence.
but then the european economic community was formed. and in the last few years, the eec created its own currency, the euro.
though the euro was pegged initially to be at parity with the dollar, goldman-sachs and the amerikan central bank[fed] drove it down. i think that when bcr assumed power it was valued at approximately .86 versus the dollar.
by 11/02, the euro had regained parity with the dollar.
today, the euro carries a premium to the dollar by approximately 20cents.
the euro, therefore, stands a chance of becoming a second reserve currency.
and that is what saddam hussein recognized. so did hugo chavez. both these leaders of hydrocarbon rich countries decided to avoid dollar-denominated hydrocarbon sales for some fraction of their hydrocarbon transactions. whether you can grasp this or not, those decisions were understood to be potentially anathematic to the amerikan dollar imperialism - the evil empire.
when iraq first started to amass euros, the amerikan govt labelled that a foolish decision... after all, those euros were worth less than a dollar. but by january 2003, these iraqi transactions were reconsidered. the bcr regime understood that iraq had made an accurate assessment of the financial foolishness of the bcr regime and was going to clean up by selling iraqi hydrocarbons for euros.
and with venezuela thinking similarly, you can see that the bcr had to do something so as to preserve its position at the head of the international gangster director's table.
and the french and the germans understood that.
tell me, why would those countries invest their assets so as to f*ck themselves?
especially when they recognized that as long as bcr were lunatics, willing to sacrifice all of usa strengths for their egomaniacal sociopathies, their euro currency had the chance to become this planet's reserve currency.
as was said in the godfather, "it's not personal. it's business."
5. do you understand that? i think that you do.
as a matter of my
5. do you understand that? i think that you do.
as a matter of my personal honor and private faith, i oppose the murdering of noncombatants by any state.
the rest of the world has been observing, however, that the united states of amerika hasn't such a moral squint. as an anglo-caucasian, christian nation, we have had no inhibitions when it comes to murdering women, children, old men.
wounded knee, sand creek, tulsa, dresden, hamburg, hiroshima, nagasaki, tokyo, ben cat, my lai, cambodia, laos, indonesia, el mozote, etc. etc.
consider, however, that there are individuals who do not see our depredations as matters of business. they see us personally...the facilitators of the murdering of their loved ones. the facilitators of the thefts of their assets.
the christian bible asserts that, "revenge is mine, saith the lord."
some see this as a shibboleth intended to curtail justified vengeance. but if you do not subscribe to the christian construct of "god", what would inhibit the demand for redress[vengeance]?
family calls, now. signing off. but when dinner is finished, i am returning. to talk about the fiction that is what the govt tells you occurred on 11/09/01.
and i wear no tinfoil.
sic semper tyrannis,
Did anybody else see the Bill Moyers/NOW piece last night? I am NOT prone to tinfoilhatting, but hte show led me to the eerie feeling that (a) BushCheneyRummieRiceWolfieFeith KNEW it was coming, and (b) didn't care! Especially damning was the commentary that, in the hours after 9/11, the focus was exclusively on how Bush would address the nation, rather than on preventing additional terrorist attacks.
That NOW episode was amazing. If you can watch that and still think Bush and the admin did the right thing, you are a lost cause.
Specifically about how they were worried about a verbal response, it made me think. When something happens to me that I know is coming and I have hidden from others (I didn't pay a bill and the collector calls and my wife gets the call), I worry about what I will say, not what I will do. Seeing the Bush response again made me think just that. He knew it was coming, he knew he hid it from the American people, and was in need of a good speech/lie.
"Clinton was offered bin Laden on a platter and refused him."
-Oh, really?
Details, please, and a link to the information would be good, too.
Just wanted to alert you to Kerry's speech on 9/11 to the Black Caucus. Put all the rest to shame.
What a press blackout on the dude! I google him on News and find only local calendar items and rightwing blogs.
oops, I meant John Edwards! A sign of the problem.
Think Franken would "open-source" this chapter for us. I'd love to print off about 100 copies of it and distribute them to undecideds and weak Bush supporters.
I think I'll write Al and mention Thomas Paine and Locke... how could he say "no"? ^_^
perpetual war....
perhaps you have encountered some of my earlier posts concerning the issue that bcr made the same mistakes as lbj concerning order of battle issues.
as some of you may know, gen. shinseki was required to resign because he said publicly that bcr were not getting the force levels high enough so as to secure iraq. essentially, shinseki said that bcr were so wrong, were committing such woefully inadequate levels of troops, that iraq could not be seized and the seizure maintained.
of course, shinseki was correct. this civilian leadership is as corrupt as the lbj leadership.
they do not have, did not have, an interest in a short and sweet military adventure. what they wanted, what they want, is an endless war. floating hydrocarbon prices to levels that will make the hydrocarbon profiteers wealthy for decades. at the expense of the amerikan populace. but bcr don't care about the amerikan citizenry...what they want is their pounds of flesh and then to escape into the night, with the amerikan booboisie not even recognizing how they were ripped off.
how husbands, sons, daughters, cousins, brothers, sisters, wives were sacrificed so that a few gangsters could skim this nation's wealth.
follow the hydrocarbons. that is my advice.
how i miss izzie stone, bob parry, george seldes.
and as much as i love sy, abu ghraib is a sideshow. concentrating on it will probably insure his life, but it is an irrelevant inquiry for the rest of us.
so it goes...
I will NEVER forget Sept. 11.
thank you for that recollection...
so few recall that on this same date in 1973 the united states of amerika destroyed the democratic republic of chile.
through the amerikan agency of the cia, the ford foundation, the office of naval intelligence; richard nixon, henry kissinger, dick helms initiated a pogrom that tore through latin america like hitler tore through europe.
until 2001, i remembered this date, consecrated this date, because of what the united states of amerika imposed on chile.
another chapter in how this evil empire murders and destroys with impunity. takes me back to my correspondence with catherine austin fitts three years ago. i told her that the agents of this day were chilean freedom fighters..paying us back for what we did to their country in 1973.
probably not. but boy do i think that the chileans have a legitimate grudge.
and a grudge that will never be resolved other than via violence.
venceremos,
i hope.
best fuckin chapter ever
The best are all those signs and bumperstickers on cars that say 9/11 - Never Forgive, Never Forget.
Awesome, that particular brand of Christianity.
Albert Champion speaks with the voice of the Democratic Party's id. Bizarre conspiracy theories, namecalling, and through it all a deep-seated irrational hatred for America. This should surprise no one.
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