I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
frits
Burn their schools! Burn their books! Make sure no Liberals are allowed to drive on YOUR roads! Join us this saturday for a wholesome liberal book burning! We won't let them make us marry our brothers anymore! We wont let them make us read Karl Marx anymore!
Paid for by bush/cheney 04.
Must be that "civility" Republicans are always talking about.
Shame that "the liberals" lack such "civility."
AP article headline was re-written.
Bastards. Cowards!
Now it says Bush, Kerry twisting each others words.
They obviously got hatemail from wing-nuts.
What a terrible state of affairs.
But they're running the country.
What's happening to our freeance?
I saw that article headline too. The wingnuts were just frothing in the yahoo message board for that story...
As for the "flyer" I love the part about how "they want to use courts to get around the Constitution" yet BushCo are using their own administration to do just that!
They'll be ignorant right up until they're all in cattle-cars on the way to Nebraska Work Camps.
See original headline here, before the big boss finished his saturday garden party and demanded the editor make things "even" regardless of the text and facts of the article.
Bush twists kerry's words on Iraq.
frits
From agonist:
"Ridge Reports Investments in Homeland Security Contractors
Tim Starks | Washington, DC | 22 Seot 2004
CQ.Com - Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge had investments last year in a number of companies with contracts with his department and others who want to profit from homeland security, a new list of his assets shows.
Ridge, a former Pennsylvania Republican congressman and governor appointed by President Bush in 2001 to run the nation's homeland security effort, held assets valued from $100,000 to $815,000 last year, according to information he supplied in a filing with the U.S. Office of Government Ethics."
--
Profiting AND politicizing what they said they never would.
Patriot Act™ profits: Why shouldn't we profit from your misery?
--
Woohoo, movin' to Arkansas! If John Kerry wins, that is.
Well, they should ban the Bible. It's nothing but medieval hatespeech. Canada is working on it, it's time we started heading in that direction.
Well, it is pretty straightfoward and isn't it true? Except for the banning the bible nonsense?
if you mean, the bible banned from having a controlling influence on legislation then, well, i guess i'd call that the consitutional agenda and i'm glad that liberals are fighting for it.
They forgot the part about human sacrifices and blood drinking.
There's a stark irony in their accusations of 'imposing their values'. Isn't this, in a sense, trying to impose values? Aren't they doing the exact same thing they accuse LIberals of doing?
Oh wait, that's what they ALWAYS do.
Fucking lies.
All the mother-fuckers have.
Wish we could get the inside guts of the flyer. Eugene Volokh, the last reasonable voice of the right wingers, is saying that unless he can see what else was in the flyer, he won't comment. Unless it was a postcard. Was it a postcard?
The demicrats will make your children learn that we're kin to monkeys!
If Arkansans are stupid enought to believe that shit, let them go down the toilet.
'Wingers are the book-banners. That should be perfectly obvious to the most retarded among us.
But I can point you to a perfect example of newspeak where 'wingers equate support for liberal causes (unrelated to religion) as tantamount to Bible banning.
I don't know what tortured logic in required for someone to become so intellectually debased. I don't think that logic even comes into play. They simply draw the conclusion without any thought.
It's the classic mark of an ideologue: Two concepts get linked (Liberal support gay marriage so that means my Bible has been banned). Never mind that no causality exists in the nexus of the two different things. It's true because 'wingers want it to be.
-
The liberals will let the boys hold hands!
"Wish we could get the inside guts of the flyer. Eugene Volokh, the last reasonable voice of the right wingers, is saying that unless he can see what else was in the flyer, he won't comment. Unless it was a postcard. Was it a postcard?
moe | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:06 pm | #"
That makes zero sense. The important part of the flyer is the scary shit on the outside. No one is going to read it. It functions as a direct mail billboard and the inner text has no relevence at all.
The naive and ignorant are clearly key Republican constituencies.
Can't they just ban dumbass Republicans instead.
Steve Gilliard has the right take on this ad---it reeks of desperation.
The Republicans are worried about losing Arkansas and other southern states where these flyers are being mailed out.
Well. The Christian Taliban has mobilized thier base. Fucking sky ghost worshipers.
How can book-burners accuse someone else of banning a book without their collective heads exploding?
To be fair, I want to ban Arkansas, as well as sell both Dakotas to Canada, and saw off Texas and push it into the Gulf; but ban a book? Never.
(In retrospect, Canada is too smart to make an offer, and Mexico will just push Texas back at us...but maybe the UN will still ban Arkansas, so that's something.)
Of the "Liberal Agenda" I have to say two I agree and two I disagree.
"In the event of the rapture, I'm taking your car."
Does everyone here believe teenagers should get abortions without parental consent? And all of you approve of partial birth abortion? C'mon, that's nuts.
Unbelievable!
Is there anything these guys wouldn't do to win?
Diogenes is an asshole.
War is peace, slavery is freedom, and it's the liberals trying to to impose their values. Welcome to Orwell World.
Is there anything these guys wouldn't do to win?
regular_joe
Lose money on investments? Tell the truth?
I'm going to go out and buy me a bible for my big election night bonfire. and when bush gives his concession speech, i'm gonna toss that sucker right on top. and then i'm gonna barbecue a christian baby on a spit. my question is this.....
what wine should i serve? a perky (but petulant) nouveau beaujolais would be nice, but those aren't released until later in the month.
And all of you approve of partial birth abortion?
I believe abortion should be legal up to the age of 5. By then, parents should know whether or not they want to keep the child. And children will be very well-behaved up until at least 6.
This thing is classic. I'd love to get one as a collector's item. In twenty years, it'll be just be absurd. Save your redneck stuff everyone! It's gonna be worth a bundle on ebay!
You know, i think -- *technically* -- the statements are all true -- even the bible one. I mean, the bible *has* been banned by folks in schools. At the very least, you can't read biblical passages aloud for religious purposes can you?
Were the folks "liberals?" Maybe not. I don't know. I think they were probably just normal.
"Partial birth abortion"?
What's that? I've never heard of a recognized medical procedure with that name.
Unless the inside reads:
"IGNORE THE OBVIOUS IDIOCY ON THE FRONT OF THIS THING. IT'S JUST US AGAIN, SHAMELESSLY PANDERING TO FEAR AND IGNORANCE. THANK YOU, BUSH/CHENEY'04"
I don't think Eugene has a case.
iDoes everyone here believe teenagers should get abortions without parental consent?
Diogenes - 4:14 pm
I'm willing to compromise. They should get parental consent, if they got parental permission to get pregnant in the first place.
This is a good example of what the wingnuts have been sending out for over a decade. That, plus Rush Limbaugh and others like him spewing hate on the radios everywhere, have guaranteed a sizable number of people who actually believe in all that crap.
My point is that any liberal hatred that exists today is but a very delayed and righteous response to what the wingnuts have been shoveling down everyone's throat for a very long time.
There is one thing on the flyer that I'm completely in favor of.
Removing "under god" from the pledge of allegiance. My god/goddess/diety/tree is my own business and has NOTHING to do with my citizenship/patriotism. I DON'T need to swear on a stack of bibles/trinkets/branches that I will be as patriotic as possible. Likewise, my patriotism has NOTHING to do with how I worship/respect/pay homage to my religion or beliefs. I'll take care of that on my own, thank you VERY much and I prefer to keep it private.
Republican jackasses.
$
Hey, they left off the part about turning all their women into lesbian libber witches who burn their bras and tell Bubba to make his own damn supper. Dang! And that was my favorite part.
And re the so-called partial birth abortion: You should read the latest Mother Jones article on how it is now almost impossible to find someone who would remove a dead fetus from a woman's uterus, because it might be against the law.
HT CLOSET QUEENS BEHIND THIS LIE!
Is that a real gay couple on the flyer?
Do they have a special mail out for PA where you can marry your dog, or whatever shit sanitarium said?
Gee, I think I just Stumbled into a scene from "O Brother Where Art Thou"
Does everyone here believe teenagers should get abortions without parental consent? And all of you approve of partial birth abortion? C'mon, that's nuts.
Diogenes
C'mon dude. Ever read that Bible?
I mean, Leviticus, now that is nuts.
Now go eat some shellfish.
And you thought every high school football player has a field to play in. Bassick High, (one mile from my elementary feeder school) is featured in the NYT CT section (out tomorrow). In Fairfield County it's the poorest municipality. No facilities, no cheerleaders, no field, no parents (3 jobs keeps you away). And No Child Left Behind.
When I first heard about this flyer earlier in the week, my very first thought was: Hoooo Boy, are they desperate!
Think about it: with this they are desperately trying to shore up their base.
They wouldn't need to do this if they didn't have their own numbers that indicate they're in trouble.
Just as the trolls come here for the very reason that we're effective, the GOP sends out this mailing, pays for it and is willing to face criticism over it, because they feel they MUST. I say that means they know they're in big trouble.
They obviously got hatemail from wing-nuts.
If our Media had any balls/ovaries, they, would be absolutely proud to get hate mail from the Wingers. They would cart in a wheelbarrow over to FBI HQ with a smile. They would throw Hatemail Parties; "hey, everybody, lissna this beauty..." haw haw haw!
Unfortunately, that's not the media we got. We got...CBS.
p.s.
I don't have a problem with gay marriage either.
Abortion is a hard enough decision with out these asshats getting in the way (I used to spit on the pro-lifers in Boston on my way to work everyday)
I think that the bible only belongs in church and other books are appropriate for school.
and I believe that Bush supporters are:
1. evil
2. stupid
3. wealthy beyond avarice
4. any combination of 1-3
$
I'm willing to compromise. They should get parental consent, if they got parental permission to get pregnant in the first place.
The Spirit of Howard Beale
You beat me to it.
Of course, since abortions are pretty awful (and I'm actually serious about that..I think they must remain legal, but I do have philosophical problems with 'em, and they are dangerous in some cases), we'll make damn sure that teens can get safe, effective birth control without parental consent...right?
what wine should i serve? a
hart,
better make it french. If you look inside the flyer it explains that we're gonna make everyone drink french wine all the time, too.
It's not exactly a lie though is it?
We are trying to remove the words 'under god' from the pledge.
There are abortion rights groups trying to allow teenagers to have abortions without consent from their parents.
We are allowing the partial birth abortion method to be used.
And we are arguing for the rights of homosexual to marry.
Granted that the circumstances aren't being given, the mailing isn't exactly a lie. It just doesn't tell you the whole truth.
MYOB'
.
Nothing like reading the Bible before and after a 10 hour shift in an Arkansas chicken processing plant....
Anyone here on the Planned Parenthood mailing list?
I just don't see what the hype is about. Most people support half this stuff. The rub seems to be in the banning the bible crap and playing to homophobia.
Likewise, my patriotism has NOTHING to do with how I worship/respect/pay homage to my religion or beliefs. I'll take care of that on my own, thank you VERY much and I prefer to keep it private.
Oh, come now...what if everyone acted the way you do?
Think of the peace and tolerance that might result...yuck!!!
diogenes:
the slight breezy feeling that you just encountered, that was the point whizzing past your dim little head.
It's not exactly a--
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
..
I'm gonna repeat: the story here is they are trying to shore up their base.
This means the numbers they have are frightening them.
Evil pretending that its righteous. Maybe Bush really is the antichrist.
...the story here is they are trying to shore up their base.
This means the numbers they have are frightening them.
Bingo.
Granted that the circumstances aren't being given, the mailing isn't exactly a lie. It just doesn't tell you the whole truth.
MYOB'
It's inflammatory through its deceptive lens. And that is the problem with it. Instead of opening hanest debate, the repugs seek to use scare tactics and propaganda to keep the masses huddled and scared of change.
That is a problem in a progressive society.
These anti-American assholes want to keep their stranglehold on power only in order to enrich themselves and keep the general population uneducated and uninformed in order to better their motives.
It's like trying to injure the other team's players. You're not better than them and wouldn't win otherwise. And any victory under those circumstances is really a loss.
$
This was the first time the Repubs have truthfully admitted to a campaign strategy. It must be a mistake.
Liberals want to reduce Arkansas's high infant mortality rate to the low rates of Massachusetts.
OT, but good news:
A sweeping voter registration campaign in heavily Democratic areas has added tens of thousands of new voters to the rolls in the swing states of Ohio and Florida, a surge that has far exceeded the efforts of Republicans in both states, a review of registration data shows.
The analysis by The New York Times of county-by-county data shows that in Democratic areas of Ohio - primarily low-income and minority neighborhoods - new registrations since January have risen 250 percent over the same period in 2000. In comparison, new registrations have increased just 25 percent in Republican areas. A similar pattern is apparent in Florida: in the strongest Democratic areas, the pace of new registration is 60 percent higher than in 2000, while it has risen just 12 percent in the heaviest Republican areas.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/2...ign/
26vote.html
It's not exactly a lie though is it?
The "banning the bible" part is.
And are "we" really trying to remove "under God"? Last I heard, that was to do with a specific court case. Where is it on the Democratic Party platform?
It's not exactly a lie though is it?
We are trying to remove the words 'under god' from the pledge.
Showing the Bible with the word "Banned" on it seems to me to be a lie.
I like the arguments I'm seeing here...hey, it's only misogynistic social control of women, cynical gay-baiting, and fanning the flames of fundie paranoia...what's the problem? Why's everyone so upset?
Of course this is a targeted mailing to little old Church Ladies. Believe I have doing lots of Phone banking for a Democratic group to swing states. Primarily Missouri and Arkansas. My hick accent is a asset.
The Repugs are worried about losing the conservative retired rural vote who are struggling with their Medicare increase and prescription drugs. Yes, I have spoken to a number of little old ladies, who the Repugs hope keep in the Bush column. But these old ladies are rightfully scared about their economic future, they will say they do not trust Bush, but they might vote for him based on the Gay marriage issue. Still these ladies are not simple bigots. In fact I think these ladies' votes are still in play. How this issue is handled is critical. The Rev Dobson Focus on Family radio network is really milking the Gay-Marriage issue. It is because they are desparate.
IMHO, the best way to handle this to some how reassure these grandmas not to worry and go ahead and vote their economic interests. The best way to do this is attack the silliness of this campaign. Get this story on the Nightly
Talk/Comedy Shows!!!
The best way to capitalize on exposing the outrageousness of this campaign is with a sense of humor. Could you imagine what a SNL/Letterman/Leno/Daily Show/O'brian/Bill Maher/Chappel/Springer/Stern etc do with this crap.
At least the nice couple on the letter are not the Shirtless, Nipple Ringed, Leather Shorted Sex Maniac, AID infected boogeymen who want to seduce your little leaguer of past elections hoaxes. Hell, this couples looks like Dad's favorite Nephews. They may move next door fix up the abandoned house, get the old refridge off the porch, do great landscaping, edge and remove all the oil stains from the driveway and invite you over to a fabulous cookout with table linen and White wine.
Image a SNL skit:
A Gay COUPLE from the big evil liberal city moves back home next door to Grandma back in ARKANSAS. Gee they may help her trim her hedges. Cut her grass when she goes out of town. Pick up the mail or check up on her when she does not. They might help her decide what color to paint the house.
Heaven forbid if it will be anything but white. They may even drive her to Church on Sunday when your worthless Honky-Tonkying ass is too wasted. Next, thing you know Grandma wants to know why you can't be more like then.
Please don't treat this crap a just a bigoted Gay Attack issue no matter how badly it hurts. Treat it instead as "How dare you Repugs scare Grandma into not voting in her best interest when she can barely pay her bills".
Don't let the moronic Frat boy hoaxster repugs get you down or to lose your temper, expose them for what they are. .
"Wish we could get the inside guts of the flyer. Eugene Volokh, the last reasonable voice of the right wingers, is saying that unless he can see what else was in the flyer, he won't comment. Unless it was a postcard. Was it a postcard?
If I can't see it, it doesn't exist.
I CAN'T HEAR YOU! NYAHNYAHNYAHNYAH!
Sorry, couldn't help it. Volokh's reasoning is the most pitiful excuse for thought since...well, since this pamphlet about banning Bibles.
I notice the flyer is not referencing people of a different political affiliation (ie, Democrats), just "Liberals"...ie, other citizens. In most countries this is considered sedition and tantamount to inciting civil war.
In the US, this is electoral politics. Hey, Iraq...want some of this democracy?
Thanks, dave, for noticing.
We need to hammer this, and not waste our energy in being incensed over these evil lies.
They are desperate to shore up their base.
What does that tell you? They know they are losing badly.
Can Bill's first appearance since his operation be Arkansas? In a grand re-emergence in the public arena he gives a speech that knocks this type of nuttery on its ear? A "What's the Matter With Kansas"-type speech that refutes the values-horseshit that's served up to southerners and rural types. I can see it now, it's so beautiful...
"The rub seems to be in the banning the bible crap and playing to homophobia."
well looks like you get it after all. my apologies. yeah, that is "the rub." are you really having a diffucult time understanding why some people might consider this mailing disinformative propaganda of the worst kind? direct from the office of a major political party no less.
Who Would Jesus Bomb? - David Rovics
( play lo-fi - play hi-fi - Download MP3 - Read Lyrics/Story )
"It's not exactly a lie though is it?
We are trying to remove the words 'under god' from the pledge.
There are abortion rights groups trying to allow teenagers to have abortions without consent from their parents.
We are allowing the partial birth abortion method to be used.
And we are arguing for the rights of homosexual to marry.
Granted that the circumstances aren't being given, the mailing isn't exactly a lie. It just doesn't tell you the whole truth.
MYOB'"
Just for your information, there is no medical procedure called "partial birth abortion" That term is an outright lie.
Also Libs banning the bible is an outright lie.
"Anyone here on the Planned Parenthood mailing list?
Sue | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:26 pm | #"
I am. My wife used their OBGYN sevices while she was in college. Planned Parenthood rocks. They also have more compassion in their front stoop than is contained in the entirety of today's right wing.
And are "we" really trying to remove "under God"? Last I heard, that was to do with a specific court case. Where is it on the Democratic Party platform?
Yes, and the Supreme Court ruled on it, knocked down the petitioner's position (to remove it from the pledge), and it's over.
Thanks to "liberal judges." (All judges, of course, are "liberal," when mentioned in this context.)
"The rub seems to be in the banning the bible crap and playing to homophobia."
well looks like you get it after all. my apologies. yeah, that is "the rub." are you really having a diffucult time understanding why some people might consider this mailing disinformative propaganda of the worst kind? direct from the office of a major political party no less.
cereal breath
Exactly. These folks on the Christian right are pandering to homophobia, religous hysteria, and fear in order to promote thier quite earthly agenda.
Things only whispered Arkansas Republicans:
1.Did you see "Will and Grace" last night?
2.Me and the boys went camping without the girls last weekend.
3.I hate pickup trucks.
4.Cats are my favorite animal.
5.My son joined the chess club.
6.When I was sick yesterday I watched Ellen Degeneres.
7.My daughter plays softball.
8.I don't like to hunt.
And are "we" really trying to remove "under God"?
I gotta tell ya, Thersites...it's real far down on my list of priorities. IMO, the guy who brought the case is an asshole who's using his kid as a pawn. And the Pledge of Allegiance is complete bullshit with or without "under God" in it. It's more of the "words speak louder than actions" crap that fair-weather patriots love so much. Never mind removing "under God"...throw the whole thing in the trashcan where it belongs.
We got the Pledge pretty late in the game, and God didn't seem to bless us less before it, or more after it. Seems pretty fucking indifferent to the matter, actually...as one would expect from any deity worth its salt.
If these nutjobs win, we must refocus until 08. We must hit them where they hurt most. Their wallets. We must set up a network of information sources so we can avoid buying ALL products that feed their base. ALL products that allow them to spew this garbage and ALL outlets that let them spread it. They CANNOT survive without a platform and that platform is built on money. They will NOT succeed in the long run. No fascists ever do but we must stop them before the damage they cause takes generations instead of a few years to repair.
This is good news, folks. This is proof they know they've been losing their base. This flyer actually means we're winning.
Pity I don't have a link to "Jesus Loves Me, But He Can't Stand You."
As performed by the Austin Lounge Lizards.
Helped me get through seminary, that song did. Got me a reputation for being a smart-ass, too, among some folk.
Ah, well. Go and please the world.
State by State Costs of Iraq War. Also includes city by city costs, the Iraq War cost counter, comparisons of Iraq spending versus Nat'l Defense spending, and more...
They know they are losing badly.
Kate
And that's what makes me most nervous. We've seen what these nuts are capable of when they're in power--what are they willing to do to hang on to it?
What these people need is information, not disinformation. Why D&X is performed:
The fetus is dead.
The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed a very severe form of hydrocephalus.
---
In other words, for their anti-abortion agenda, they would happily sacrifice women. Someone's mom, sister, etc will die if D&X is banned. These are family values?
Hydrocephalus is real. The words of your priest are questionable.
...fire and chains and other objectionable tools of gratification in some twisted mind..."
I gotta say that I've been seeing much more kerry stickers than bc ones. Not that I'm not seeing them at all which still bothers me. After 4 years of this shit, they STILL like it enough to want more of it. Our job is not over even after Kerry wins. They will STILL exist and will STILL try to destroy America from within if only from outside government.
They neglected to include a picture of two inbred morons with the caption "This is Arkansas anyway"
" I mean, the bible *has* been banned by folks in schools. At the very least, you can't read biblical passages aloud for religious purposes can you?
Were the folks "liberals?" Maybe not. I don't know. I think they were probably just normal.
clerkin' | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:16"
No, fuckhead. Kids have the constitutional right to take Bibles to school. The problems start when schools start using them to PROSYLETIZE FOR JESUS.
Lifted from DrFranklives:
"Students have the right to distribute religious literature to their schoolmates, subject to those reasonable time, place, and manner or other constitutionally-acceptable restrictions imposed on the distribution of all non-school literature."
dfl comments
The point is the doomsday way the leaflet is done. To make a feeling of panic and urgency to rise in the breast of the recipient. I've seen this done in slightly different contexts, to get more money out of donations, but not in election leaflets.
It gives the false impression that there are large numbers of people trying to destroy the Bible, for example. It's a scare tactic, as Kate said, to mobilize the fundies who didn't vote in as large numbers in 2000 as Rove wanted.
I made a crude response to this flier last week.
here
grr -
Yes, I'm nervous about that too. But they are going to overplay their hand badly, as they always do. Even if they resort to violence to try to keep power, it won't work in the long run. It just won't. If they are already losing their base (which this flyer is proof of), think how pissed off all but the most brain-washed will be if they try to keep hold of power by violent means.
>e must hit them where they hurt most. Their wallets.
Generally, taxes (federal taxes that is) from the north and urban centers (read: liberal) pay out to support the south (these nutters).
How can you boycott the government? Driving the south into deeper poverty will probably make them more extreme. Someone should tell them that they can get out of poverty, get rich, etc by dumping the cronyistic GOP and switching sides.
As performed by the Austin Lounge Lizards.
Helped me get through seminary, that song did. Got me a reputation for being a smart-ass, too, among some folk.
Robert M. Jeffers | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:36 pm | #
Ya know, I might would go to your church and hear you preach just based on that. Course, when I think Richard Bowden, I think more along the lines of "Don't Pet The Dog" and "Help Me Make It Through The Yard", but the Lounge Lizards are indeed killer bee.
I'm not the only one who noticed. As usual, Steve Gilliard nails it:
As always, my question is: what do their internals look like. The GOP is reeking of fear and the media misses it...
The fact is that every move by the GOP reeks of bad numbers, while the media is writing a Kerry comes from behind scenario, which is bullshit.
Bush, as the inmcumbent, needs to be above 50 percent to have a lead. Every day that he isn't, he's losing, regardless of the spread.
The media is missing this story the way they missed the simple fact that Clinton would never be impeached and had no reason to resign. They kept harping on that for months and waiting for the other shoe to drop. It wasn't going to. Hell, look at the number of House and Senate races which are opening up, is this a good sign for the party in pwower? I don't think so. The worst mistake Kerry made so far was to call Lambeau Field Lambert Field.
Yet, Bush stood there like a drooling idiot on Thursday, complete with incoherent answers which made no sense and Friday, he had to hide behind Allawi's CIA-owned trousers.
Why would the party send out such a desperate mailer if they weren't still worried about their base. Banning the bible? Are they fucking kidding? Why not "eats little babies," it makes as much sense.
Kate is absolutely right. They are in full-on panic mode when the NATIONAL RNC won't disavow something so obviously aimed at the Cretin vote, they've given up on moderates and swing voters.
And, I personally do favor abortion for teenagers w/o parental notification. So that after Suzie's stepdad impregnates her, she doesn't have to go get his permission to abort the fetus.
Arkansas is a swing state, according to the GOP's internal polling.
No other way to look at it.
The Bible's legal???? I guess I can stop hiding all of those copies under my bed.
LOL! I don't see what you nitwits have to complain about.
1. Most of you would happily remove "under God" from the pledge
2. Most of you believe a teenager shouldn't have to get parental consent for an abortion
3. You hate the partial birth abortion ban
4. And the fact is that you would cheerfully allow same sex marraige.
So it seems you guys whole problem with this pamphlet is that it merely tells the truth. Ashamed of something?
So, um, how come "Liberal" (sic) is capitalized?
There seems to be an awful lot of potentially gay men in freeperville, Arkansas. This is why the people there are so worried.
Allow gay marriage and half the men will propose to their drinking buddies.
Liberals want to impose their values on Arkansas.
While Republicans will settle for just killing everyone that doesn't agree with them...
A BLOG FROM IRAQ ON BUSH AND ALLAWI:
http://
riverbendblog.blogspot.co...602421527384036
Nathan | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:41 pm | #
And all of you approve of partial birth abortion?
No such procedure exists.
...it seems you guys whole problem with--
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
So it seems you guys whole problem with this pamphlet is that it merely tells the truth. Ashamed of something?
Avestus
Well, it's been said about a hundred times in this thread...but I think what most of us are bothered by is the idea that Liberals are trying to ban the Bible. It happens not to be true.
Ashamed of nothing, Avestus? Nothing at all?
I wouldn't have said this a year ago. But now I fear that these Republicans will go to any length. They are capable of any atrocity, even high conspiracy, in order to win. And I fear that the major press won't stand up. They must be threatening the journalists with their lives. Get ready for the Fourth Reich.
BTW, do you know why it's so hard to identify a dead body in Arkansas?
Nobody has any dental records and all the DNA is the same.
Ba-boom *ching*!
Meanwhile, Time say (via First Draft):
It's a dead heat in the latest Time poll among registered voters (margin of error is 4%):
Bush 48% (-3)
Kerry 44% (+5)
And Bush's re-elect numbers are falling as well:
Re-elect Bush?
Yes 47% (-5)
No 49% (+4)
Stone Free -
Amen!!! And this means, in the long run, they cannot hold onto power. If they use violent means to do so, even most of their fundie base is going to start looking at them with new eyes, as in "Antichrist."
If they cannot hold onto their base without panicked, extremist measures, that means the vast majority of the country will not accept any thuggish doomsday plot of theirs over the long haul. Won't happen. They will be toppled, sooner or later.
We just have to work as hard as we can to make it sooner. That's the moral duty of every patriotic American.
LOL! I don't see what you nitwits have to complain about.
1. Most of you would happily remove "under God" from the pledge
2. Most of you believe a teenager shouldn't have to get parental consent for an abortion
3. You hate the partial birth abortion ban
4. And the fact is that you would cheerfully allow same sex marraige.
So it seems you guys whole problem with this pamphlet is that it merely tells the truth. Ashamed of something?
We're not trying to ban the Bible. Just keeping theological Nazi's in check.
Ya know, the Christians and Muslims, and Jews, all kinda worship the same flavor of "god", and they all think they have the "way" and they all act non-consensually - telling everyone else what to do. I think its very dangerous stuff.
You are free to read what ever book you'd like, but your rights end at the end of your own nose.
"So it seems you guys whole problem with this pamphlet is that it merely tells the truth. Ashamed of something?
Avestus | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:44 pm | #"
No, asshole. Speaking for myself, it frames those issues as though Liberals are on the wrong side of them (do some reading and get back to us when you acutally understand the issues). And it makes the silly contention that Liberals are actively trying to ban the Bible.
I'm certain that you will agree thatg it's you 'wingers who do all the book banning. That's what makes the flyer so idiotic.
-
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
What's always killed me is the wingnut thumper idea that Christians are some sort of persecuted minority in America. The government says "No, you can make people do that just because you do that", and they act like it's lions in the collesium all over again. Now, I ain't saying most people in America are wingnut thumper Christians - or, hell, even that most Christians are wingnut thumpers, for that matter. Most folks are religious in the same way I'm a Gator fan: I sorta care if they win, being an alumni and all, but it ain't the end all and be all of my existence. Yet there is a large group of people who honestly believe my agnosticism and the very idea of "seperating church and state" is a direct and viloence-laden attack on them.
Yet I still can't buy a sixpack on Sundays because of friggin' blue laws. Someone explain that one to me.
What I want to know is--and I've asked this before--why did Lot's daughters get him drunk and fuck him after the destruction of Sodom?
Nonconsensual incest is A-OK, but same-sex marriage isn't? No wonder this shits so popular among the fundies.
I'd propose to my drinking buddy, but Spot would kill me!
ever notice how troll voices rise in pitch when they notice Emperor Underoo's gas-filled bubble springing new leaks as it bounces off the jagged rocks of REALITY?
Damn typos...that should read "the government says 'No, you can't make people do that just cause you do that'".
Feh...
And Pilalethes, oddly enough in many Southern states, incest and beastiality was perfectly legal, but sodomy wasn't, up until recently. In Georgia, sex outside of marriage was against the law until last year or so, and I think it's still illegal to get a blowjob in Florida.
Go figure.
I think what most of us are bothered by is the idea that Liberals are trying to ban the Bible. It happens not to be true.
Still, I think any adult can see that for what it is - not true. It is annoying though.
"What I want to know is--and I've asked this before--why did Lot's daughters get him drunk and fuck him after the destruction of Sodom?"
Yes, I've wondered about that too. But most Fundies and wingnuts don't even know that stuff is in the Bible.
To them its' just a weapon to hit people with. If they really read every word in the Bible, they would be quite confused.
Yet I still can't buy a sixpack on Sundays because of friggin' blue laws. Someone explain that one to me.
Backslider
Ummm...because every second spent concerning oneself with the mote in someone else's eye allows one to ignore the beam in one's own? Or some variant of "They'll never DREAM of looking for me while I'm hiding in here?"
And what about the part where we euthanize old people? I understand that's how we liberals really plan to bring down medical costs.
And the part where we intrude government into religion? Oh, wait a minute . . .
Oh, and to answer your question:
What I want to know is--and I've asked this before--why did Lot's daughters get him drunk and fuck him after the destruction of Sodom?
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:50 pm | #
If I recall my Vacation Bible School correctly, it was because they looked at the destruction of Sodom & Gamorrah and figured they were the last folks on the planet. So it was up to them to repopulate. And remember, this is after Lot had let the local men beat the shit out of his handmaiden rather than the angel visiting him. Makes sense, I suppose, in the light of Adam & Eve. If they were the first people on the planet - and the only originally - where'd Cain's wife come from? Are we literally a race descended from a mother fucker?
These are the thoughts that kept me out of grad school.
How 'bout amending election law so that anything you say about your opponent must be literally true?
How 'bout a winning lottery ticket while you're at it...
"So it seems you guys whole problem with this pamphlet is that it merely tells the truth. Ashamed of something?
Avestus | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:44 pm | #"
this proves, once again, the RICO statute is needed to put these guys to bed once and for all .. this is racketeering any way you look at it .. albeit theological racketeering with a political agenda ... when rethugs used to go after union PAC money as illegal, they made some rather disgusting allegations of socialism, so now the shoe is on the other front
secondly, all tax-exempt designations must be removed from all churches - they must no longer be added to the tax base, especially in times of such deficits and left there permanently. having the government treat them with special favors erodes the church vs state provisions of the us constitution.
a binding, non-partisan commission must be appointed to remove all political ties to the debate, and these issues must be exposed for what they really are - when representatives of these fundie organizations can simultaneously raise money for politicians and blow up planned parenthood facilities and terrorize doctors, the RICO statute clearly can be used as a precedent for legal counter-attack
Philalethes,
God knows every thought we have, every decision we make. He/She also gave us free will, and rejoices (and gives freely and generously) when we chose to make a decision based on truth, justice and love. Free will, however, has been given to every member of this planet. I'm impressed, Phil.
could it be they are doing all this to allow the Diebold strategy to be engaged without "suspicion" ie "See, our strategy worked!"*
*ahem, thanks to diebold
Wait a second people, let's get the story straight... are we banning the bible or not?
Bush claims to be a Christian Republican, so obviously he would never ban the bible. But I bet he would tear a page out and use it to clean his glasses, if a lady's dress isn't available.
sorry for the double post (corrections):
this proves, once again, the RICO statute is needed to put these guys to bed once and for all .. this is racketeering any way you look at it .. albeit theological racketeering with a political agenda ... when rethugs used to go after union PAC money as illegal, they made some rather disgusting allegations of socialism, so now the shoe is on the other foot
secondly, all tax-exempt designations must be removed from all churches - they must no longer be removed from the tax base, especially in times of such deficits and left there permanently. having the government treat them with special favors erodes the church vs state provisions of the US constitution.
a binding, non-partisan commission must be appointed to remove all political ties to the debate, and these issues must be exposed for what they really are - when representatives of these fundie organizations can simultaneously raise money for politicians and blow up planned parenthood facilities and terrorize doctors, the RICO statute clearly can be used as a precedent for legal counter-attack
Why must haloscan eat my pensees? Why, Lord, why?
Ummm...because every second spent concerning oneself with the mote in someone else's eye allows one to ignore the beam in one's own? Or some variant of "They'll never DREAM of looking for me while I'm hiding in here?"
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:55 pm | #
Well, I can say that Southern Baptists are starting to loosen up a bit. They're waving at each other when they meet in liquor stores now.
It's always struck me as odd. We, as a country, drink like fucking demons, have this massive guilt complex about it and, subsequently, have rampant alcoholism as a society. Ever drink with someone from a country who doesn't have the socio-religious hang-ups we have about booze, like an Irishman or a German? It's a fucking revelation, man. They may get drunker than Cooter Jones, but at least they don't feel bad about it.
C'mon guys, quit with the word games. Partial birth abortion *is* the name given to the procedure. It may not be it's technical name, but then again a Dog's technical name is canine right?
Yet how many of you choose to call them dogs rather than canines?
Let's drop the word games. This is a liberal blog remember? We don't fall for that shit as easily as the fascist freepers do.
MYOB'
.
Of course, nothing should stop Arkansas from imposing their values on us. And don't Moderate Republicans look as ridiculous as the Log Cabins did for acting as enablers for these bozos? Moderate Republicans: you have nothing to lose but your chains! Bolt your party now! It has been overrun and no longer is the party you joined! Try taking action for once -- you might just learn to like it!
And the Pledge of Allegiance is complete bullshit with or without "under God" in it.
Thank you Phil. That's a sentimant I hear all too seldom. The National frigging Loyalty Oath for preschool & above. Sheesh. I didn't really mind when I was a kid, it was just part of school. Then I growed up, and got a 2nd brain cell bor my Birthday...
I guess that expanding "circle of liberty and security" that Bush touted at the U.N. does not include the freedom to marry my boyfriend of eight years. No, I am just red meat for the gaping maw of ignorance.
Yes, I made a serious effort to read the Bible as a teenager. I was going to get everything understood, but I got confused.
Why did Jesus tell us to hate our brother?
Why are there 2 different family trees of Jesus in the Gospels, and, if he was Son of God, why did he even have an earthly family tree?
If God made everything, why did he make the Tree with the evil serpent that tripped up his Adam and Eve creation?
How much of the Bible do you bet Chimpy has read?
"Wait a second people, let's get the story straight... are we banning the bible or not?"
It's banned from the schools as far as mandatory reading is concerned and that's the issue. This is about converting our schools into churches.
It's all about indoctrinating the kids at an early age. If you don't get at them when they are young, you make the effort of brainwashing them that much harder later in life.
MYOB'
.
Is it wrong to wish that every born aginner would sponataneously combust? Is there a commandment about that? Can I get an indulgence that gets me off the hook?
MYOB,
Difference is, calling a canine a "dog" is a more exact name than calling Spot or Fido "canines". A canine can also be a wolf or a fox. It's not deceptive, it's exact. The way the wingnuts use "partial birth abortion" is not only deceptive, it's mendacious. It's a lie with malice aforthought, or ignorance one.
How ironic! This happens to be the American Library Association's banned book week. I need to find their website and see where the bible falls on their most challenged book list.
personally, I know plenty of liberals who are consulting the Bible these days; they are combing through the Book of Revelations to see if this is the real armageddon
This is the problem. Leo Strauss's thought divides humanity into three types: the wise, the gentlemen, and the vulgar. The wise use deception (noble lies) to attain their ends, using gentlemen (who are not wise but who are powerful) to control the masses. Religion is a vital tool in controlling the masses ("as lambs to the slaughter"), and the non-believing wise can also use it to manipulate "gentlemen." Revelation, at the hands of the wise, gentle or vulgar, is among the world's most easily manipulated of books; the wise can do it best.
Hal Lindsey, best-selling author of The Late Great Planet Earth (1970) identified the beast of Revelation (the Antichrist) with the Soviet Union. But later, with the European Union. Now, perhaps, global Islam. His most recent book, The Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad, traces Arab-Israeli enmity back to the days of Abraham, depicts Islam itself as the problem, and concludes with a chapter on "Armageddon: The Climax of Hate." Many are being influenced by this book, and its association of the Muslim fighter with the Serpent, the Beast, the False Prophet, etc. Those persuaded by its message might be more inclined to support more troops in Iraq, or the expansion of the war into Syria, or restoration of a draft, because prophesy supports it. Very dangerous indeed.
Hecate, hadn't we better consult with Diogenes and make absolutely sure that he's warmed up to Kerry now?
"Jesus Loves Me, But He Can't Stand You."
Helped me get through seminary, that song did.
Robert M. Jeffers
Uhhh, wait a minute,ummm.
Oh, never mind.
If God made everything, why did he make the Tree with the evil serpent that tripped up his Adam and Eve creation?
turd float vermin | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:04 pm | #
It's all part of the ineffable plan. It may not make any sense whatsoever, but hey...ya can't argue with ineffability, now, can you?
Philalethes
There's probably many a fundie Dad who wishes his daughters would get him drunk and fuck him. It would make a change from when he gets himself drunk and fucks them.
What we need to do to win this battle is make our claim that by removing the words 'under god' we are returning the pledge to it's original intent.
Most people don't even know that the original pledge didn't even include those words, and that's part of the problem.
If we could get the issue to revolve around our desire to 'restore' the pledge, then it could actually get a bit more support.
MYOB'
.
I volunteer at the local Dem office and people have been bringing these things in. The worst part about it is that they then just shrug their shoulders and say "well Kerry's abandoned Arkansas anyway, pulled all his ads and cancelled his appearance here, so what can we do". I wish I had a good answer for them. Bush pulled his people out of this state two weeks ago and the zogby poll shows it tied. Kerry can win here, but will he try. And why don't the 527's take up the slack and run the Haliburton and Saudi ads? Damnit, I wish Kerry would listen to me!
Is it wrong to wish that every born aginner would sponataneously combust?
Yes.
Banning the Bible?
As a secular humanist, I think most liberals just want the fundamentalists to embrace the philosophy contained in the New Testament rather than perverting it.
Like everything else the Republicans stand for, this is just one more fraud.
It's banned from the schools as far as mandatory reading is concerned and that's the issue.
If that's the issue, why isn't it in the flyer?
The Dhammapada isn't required reading in school, either. Neither is The Federalist Papers. Neither is Godel's On Formally Undecidable Propositions. Doesn't mean they're banned. Doesn't mean you can't read the books during recess, or at home, or wherever the hell you want as long as it's not during a history or math lesson.
"Hal Lindsey, best-selling author of The Late Great Planet Earth (1970) identified the beast of Revelation (the Antichrist) with the Soviet Union. But later, with the European Union. Now, perhaps, global Islam. His most recent book, The Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad, traces Arab-Israeli enmity back to the days of Abraham, depicts Islam itself as the problem, and concludes with a chapter on "Armageddon: The Climax of Hate." Many are being influenced by this book, and its association of the Muslim fighter with the Serpent, the Beast, the False Prophet, etc. Those persuaded by its message might be more inclined to support more troops in Iraq, or the expansion of the war into Syria, or restoration of a draft, because prophesy supports it."
How DARE Hal Lindsey not take the book of Revelations literally. What is he thinking, with this metaphorical crap? Is he some kinda leebural? What next, Noah didn't literally build an ark?
OT, but re: 4th Estate stanky ho-bags... anyone seen the latest Nagourney Wilgoren craptacular? Shorter Nagiloreney: JK's no manager, and he spends way too much time thinking, when he should be, I dunno, bombing somebody swarthy, somewhere. I'm starting to feel sorry for these two Kool Kids, having to follow boring ol' Lurchy Flip-Flop Man around all the time...
Here are the ALA's www.ala.org 100 most banned and challenged books. Can anyone find where the Bible is?
Scary Stories (Series) by Alvin Schwartz
Daddy’s Roommate by Michael Willhoite
I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou
The Chocolate War by Robert Cormier
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain
Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck
Harry Potter (Series) by J.K. Rowling
Forever by Judy Blume
Bridge to Terabithia by Katherine Paterson
Alice (Series) by Phyllis Reynolds Naylor
Heather Has Two Mommies by Leslea Newman
My Brother Sam is Dead by James Lincoln Collier and Christopher Collier
The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger
The Giver by Lois Lowry
It’s Perfectly Normal by Robie Harris
Goosebumps (Series) by R.L. Stine
A Day No Pigs Would Dieby Robert Newton Peck
The Color Purple by Alice Walker
Sex by Madonna
Earth’s Children (Series) by Jean M. Auel
The Great Gilly Hopkins by Katherine Paterson
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Go Ask Alice by Anonymous
Fallen Angels by Walter Dean Myers
In the Night Kitchen by Maurice Sendak
The Stupids (Series) by Harry Allard
The Witches by Roald Dahl
The New Joy of Gay Sex by Charles Silverstein
Anastasia Krupnik (Series) by Lois Lowry
The Goats by Brock Cole
Kaffir Boy by Mark Mathabane
Blubber by Judy Blume
Killing Mr. Griffin by Lois Duncan
Halloween ABC by Eve Merriam
We All Fall Down by Robert Cormier
Final Exit by Derek Humphry
The Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood
Julie of the Wolves by Jean Craighead George
The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison
What’s Happening to my Body? Book for Girls: A Growing-Up Guide for Parents & Daughters by Lynda Madaras
To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee
Beloved by Toni Morrison
The Outsiders by S.E. Hinton
The Pigman by Paul Zindel
Bumps in the Night by Harry Allard
Deenie by Judy Blume
Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes
Annie on my Mind by Nancy Garden
The Boy Who Lost His Face by Louis Sachar
Cross Your Fingers, Spit in Your Hat by Alvin Schwartz
A Light in the Attic by Shel Silverstein
Brave New World by Aldous Huxley
Sleeping Beauty Trilogy by A.N. Roquelaure (Anne Rice)
Asking About Sex and Growing Up by Joanna Cole
Cujo by Stephen King
James and the Giant Peach by Roald Dahl
The Anarchist Cookbook by William Powell
Boys and Sex by Wardell Pomeroy
Ordinary People by Judith Guest
American Psycho by Bret Easton Ellis
What’s Happening to my Body? Book for Boys: A Growing-Up Guide for Parents & Sons by Lynda Madaras
Are You There, God? It’s Me, Margaret by Judy Blume
Crazy Lady by Jane Conly
Athletic Shorts by Chris Crutcher
Fade by Robert Cormier
Guess What? by Mem Fox
The House of Spirits by Isabel Allende
The Face on the Milk Carton by Caroline Cooney
Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut
Lord of the Flies by William Golding
Native Son by Richard Wright
Women on Top: How Real Life Has Changed Women’s Fant
t's all part of the ineffable plan. It may not make any sense whatsoever, but hey...ya can't argue with ineffability, now, can you?
Backslider
Oh, eff that!
There's probably many a fundie Dad who wishes his daughters would get him drunk and fuck him. It would make a change from when he gets himself drunk and fucks them.
Toonscribe | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:08 pm | #
It happened in the bible that way. Which I expect is the reason to brought it up?
Even still, I've found that not all fundies like screwing for 30 seconds in the missionary position with the lights out and no foreplay.
MYOB'
.
My 81 year old dad got this mailing in Arkansas. He called me when he got it.
He's goes to a Southern Baptist church down there and I suspect that's how they targeted him.
One small problem: Three months ago my dad acted as best man at his favorite nephew's wedding to another man.
Dad was actually leaning toward Bush in this year's election. He became a rapid Kerry supporter overnight.
Families have long since figured out how to deal. Republicans can't seem to figure it out.
Tell the RNC to keep up the good work.
Kay
Jesus Loves Me, But He Can't Stand You."
Helped me get through seminary, that song did.
Robert M. Jeffers
Hey, was that the Austin Lounge Lizards?
ALA banned and challenged books cont.
Women on Top: How Real Life Has Changed Women’s Fantasies by Nancy Friday
Curses, Hexes and Spells by Daniel Cohen
Jack by A.M. Homes
Bless Me, Ultima by Rudolfo A. Anaya
Where Did I Come From? by Peter Mayle
Carrie by Stephen King
Tiger Eyes by Judy Blume
On My Honor by Marion Dane Bauer
Arizona Kid by Ron Koertge
Family Secrets by Norma Klein
Mommy Laid An Egg by Babette Cole
The Dead Zone by Stephen King
The Adventures of Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain
Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison
Always Running by Luis Rodriguez
Private Parts by Howard Stern
Where’s Waldo? by Martin Hanford
Summer of My German Soldier by Bette Greene
Little Black Sambo by Helen Bannerman
Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett
Running Loose by Chris Crutcher
Sex Education by Jenny Davis
The Drowning of Stephen Jones by Bette Greene
Girls and Sex by Wardell Pomeroy
How to Eat Fried Worms by Thomas Rockwell
View from the Cherry Tree by Willo Davis Roberts
The Headless Cupid by Zilpha Keatley Snyder
The Terrorist by Caroline Cooney
Jump Ship to Freedom by James Lincoln Collier and Christopher Collier
One more time (please, have patience, it needs repetition):
This flyer is Exhibit A: They are losing, and losing badly. And they know it. They feel they have to shore up their base and are resorting to desperate measures to do so. All they have is their base. And they're losing them. They may not vote for Kerry, but lots of them will stay home.
Thanks for headline tip, Justin. I just wrote every person at AP that I could imagine might be involved, including editors, president and reporer Loven, of course.
I used congress.org, then click on media guide and fill in Associate Press to get names and email addresses (in case you want to give it a try).
Hey, is snow mentioned in the Bible? How about kangaroos? Or American Indians?
Moderate Republicans: you have nothing to lose but your chains! Bolt your party now! It has been overrun and no longer is the party you joined!
I'd say the same for conservative republicans. The party is a shell of its former self. It's sick how quickly power corrupts.
MYOB:
This one's for you.
Eight years after the anti-choice movement first introduced "partial birth" abortion legislation in the U.S. Congress and state houses across the country, it is still not recognized for what it is: part of a carefully crafted, national strategy to ban all abortion. It's easy to understand why anti-choice zealots portray the bans as narrowly drawn for the limited purpose of stopping a certain late-term abortion procedure. The mystery is why many pro-choice leaders and the mainstream media have been slow to expose the reality that nowhere in most of the bills is there any reference to stage of pregnancy - not viability, not trimesters nor weeks of gestation. A simple look at the legislation reveals that calling these bills bans on late-term abortion is factually inaccurate.
The term "partial birth" abortion cannot be found in any medical dictionary because it is a political term that anti-choice zealots made up as part of their public relations campaign to stigmatize all abortion...
They're 5 miles high as the crow flies
leavin' vapour trails against a blood red sky
Movin' in from the East toward the West
with Balaclava helmets over their heads, yes!
But if you think that Jesus Christ is coming
Honey you've got another thing coming
If he ever finds out who's hi-jacked his name
He'll cut out his heart and turn in his grave
Islam is rising
The Christians mobilising
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
It's war, she cried, It's war, she cried, this is war
Drop your possessions, all you simple folk
You will fight them on the beaches in your underclothes
You will thank the good lord for raising the union jack
You'll watch the ships out of harbour
and the bodies come floating back
If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today
He'd be gunned down cold by the C.I.A.
Oh, the lights that now burn brightest behind stained glass
Will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart
But God didn't build himself that throne
God doesn't live in Israel or Rome
God doesn't belong to the yankee dollar
God doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah
God doesn't even go to church
And God won't send us down to Allah to burn
No, God will remind us what we already know
That the human race is about to reap what it's sown
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
Armageddon days are here again
Speaking of banning bibles, Fran Lebowitz (who I want to be when I grow up) has some additional new rules in her new book, "Progress":
1. All religious leaders must be elected to their positions by representatives of the secular community formerly known as "the people."
[snip]
3. All religious texts will be vetted and, if necessary, revised, by ad hoc committees composed of public librarians, English teachers, literary critics, and writers, in order to ensure that no representative of the secular community is in any way offended.
[snip]
6. All religious institutions that engage in the ritual burning of incense either must cease doing so altogether or must do it outside . . . on the off chance that a representative of the secular community or, more importantly, much much more importantly, the child of a representative of the secular community who is allergic to incense, afraid of incense, annoyed by incense, or merely plagued by the suspicion that someone might enjoy the incense, should happen to be present.
[snip]
9. Artists shall, at the slightest provocation, attempt to noisily and noisomely remove from any religious institution that catches their eye, any work of art that they find aesthetically offensive. Particular attention will be paid to the handling of negative space.
[snip]
11. All real estate owned by religious institutions will be taxed as if it were, in fact, real estate. ...
C'mon guys, quit with the word games. Partial birth abortion *is* the name given to the procedure.
C'mon guys, quit with the words games. "Feminazi" *is* the name given to feminists. Sure, it's not the technical name, but everyone knows who it refers to.
Kerry Nation,
Is Huckleberry Finn still banned by a lot of schools? I remember discovering Mark Twain in sixth grade, reading all his books from the school library, and then finding out this one was banned. As in I couldn't check it out because, as I was told, it was "bad" for me to read. So I bought it and read it. Along with being incredibly pissed off that people would ban any book, much less that one, I think it may've been the first time I realized that people who say they're doing things for my "own good" really weren't.
Big Nasty -
Speak with the national campaign. Their phone numbers and fax numbers (national and regional) are on the www.johnkerry.com website, left hand side down the page, under "contact us."
There's also a form where you can submit comments. I know for a fact that they *do* listen, even if they don't respond immediately.
However, this is what I would say to people who complain about the campaign ignoring your state: "They are using money strategically, and they know a) the 527s will step in to fill the void, and b) they know the Big Dawg will be unleashed shortly.
Re banned books:
I notice Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale is listed. Talk about a wingers wet dream.
Why the CBS fiasco occurred.
When the Abu Ghraib prison scandal screamed off the screens of American television sets aired by CBS, Karl Rove declared war on the network. “I will kill CBS!” Rove said. Knowing CBS correspondent Ed Bradley was working on a story about how the Bush administration had used forged documents to support waging war in Iraq Rove had to derail the story.
Cunning as he is Rove decided to use the irony of forged documents as the undoing of CBS. Rove sent his stooges out to kill two realms of vulnerability for Bush, his guard service and the 16 State of the Union words on Iraq’s WMD’s. Masterful in his manipulation Rove would turn truth into lie. The documents created to support Bill Burkett’s earlier claims were fed to him as proof supporting what he had been saying. Burkett was told CBS 60 Minutes was the only likely source to air the documents.
The timing was planned to preclude the Niger story from airing. The plan worked to perfection. As soon as the story aired friendly bloggers were tipped off on font problems with the CBS documents and the White House would even disseminate the documents to other news sources right away. Rove had surpassed his mentor Lee Atwater in the sphere of sinister political maneuvering.
Remember cunning has forever been the tool of evil rulers. Farewell democracy.
Based upo nthe actual physical descriptions given to the procedure then 'partial birth abortion' seems dead-on.
I don't know why we are getting caught up in this? I know the fascists are trying to use the langauge to fire up the electorate, but the name is correct.
Unless any of you can provide the details of how the procedure is performed? If it doesn't match the name's description then I'm willing to amend my position.
I also know there is more than one type of this procedure, but I don't spend a lot of time studying abortion methods sorry.
MYOB'
.
If God made everything, why did he make the Tree with the evil serpent that tripped up his Adam and Eve creation?
turd float vermin | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:04 pm | #
It's all part of the ineffable plan. It may not make any sense whatsoever, but hey...ya can't argue with ineffability, now, can you?
Backslider | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:07 pm | #
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Actually, almost all of this stuff becomes quite understandable if you read more about the background of the Bible, especially about the religions it was trying to displace. The snake had an important and benign role in some of those, so it couldn't just be ignored in the new religion. Instead, it was introduced but made into something evil. That's a common trick religions use: to absorb old beliefs either by turning them upside.
First grade, not sixth...though with my rather scattershot attempts at posting, I'd believe the latter before the former, frankly.
i think we should do a direct mail of every Judas Priest record played backwards -- to all the fundies, they'd probably barracade themselves until christmas
Kate .. that's basically what we are saying. That Kerry is running hard as a closer and that with the state basically tied he can come in right after the debates and with one visit standing next to Clinton close the deal. Of course, we aren't promising anything, just saying it could happen. That's the other problem, we can get anything definate from the DNC. I have already emailed Kerry about this, maybe somebody will answer or at least give us some idea of where we go from here.
Philalethes
There is no comparison between the names 'partial birth abortion' and 'feminazi'.
None whatsoever and you know this.
MYOB'
.
Echidne,
Yep. A lot of old local dieties became saints using that same technique. I wanna say St. Patrick was one of them, though I can't say for sure with the rather rickety way my brain seems to be running today.
Well, they should ban the Bible. It's nothing but medieval hatespeech. Canada is working on it, it's time we started heading in that direction.
nonsense.
first of all: although there's a lot of argument about the provenance of the Bible, it's pretty clearly older than "medieval".
second: it's ridiculous to say that the bible is "nothing but hatespeech". the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is nothing but hatespeech. There's a difference.
third: I have been to Canada recently enough to be able to reliably assure you that it's utter horseshit to assert that they are working on banning the bible.
I really don't like defending Christianity. Please don't make me do it any more.
Based upo nthe actual physical descriptions given to the procedure then 'partial birth abortion' seems dead-on.
What does "partial birth" mean?
Unless any of you can provide the details of how the procedure is performed? If it doesn't match the name's description then I'm willing to amend my position. I also know there is more than one type of this procedure, but I don't spend a lot of time studying abortion methods sorry.
OK. You don't know the details, and there's more than one type, and you don't study it...and that's how you know that the name is "dead-on" and "correct."
I'm votin' 'gainst them cityfolk what wanna ban the Bible.
If God made everything, why did he make the Tree with the evil serpent that tripped up his Adam and Eve creation?
turd float vermin - 5:04 pm
As the late Frank Zappa pointed out in a Playboy interview, don't you think it's odd that the tree in the Garden of eden was called "The Tree of Knowledge" and that the awareness gained by eating its fruit incurred God's wrath?
Ironic isn't it?
Well the second half of the Ark-Alabama game is about to kick off. Have fun all. And get a life some of you. It's Sat afternoon, get out and do something. haahahaha
There is no comparison between the names 'partial birth abortion' and 'feminazi'.
None whatsoever and you know this.
On the contrary, they're both inaccurate, demonizing, question-begging phrases made up by the right for cynical political gain. As such, they're essentially identical.
Yeah Backslider..... ya might not be able to buy a 6 pack on Sunday down yonder.
But with friends in the right places, one can always find the sacred herb - Sunday or not.
How many people know that hops are a direct link to the cannibus family?
Echidne
Are you familiar with the website:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Which is the annotated skeptics guide to the bible?
It's one of the best sights you will ever find where the bible is dissected word for word.
They even go after the Quran and the book of mormom.
The funniest thing about this is the way there are competing sites up that are trying to refute it without actually addressing the inconsistencies and outright contradictions given in the bible. Another case of attacking the messenger, but not the message.
MYOB'
.
Backslider
A lot of old local dieties became saints using that same technique. I wanna say St. Patrick was one of them, though I can't say for sure with the rather rickety way my brain seems to be running today.
No, Patrick was an actual person. A lot of saints from Ireland fit into the category that you're talking about, though; most prominently, Bridget.
And of course, Backslider, some of those old deities became demons. In fact, Devil comes from DEVA, the old Sanskrit word for the Bright Ones, the Gods, that the Zoroastrians decided they didn't like.
The term "partial birth" abortion cannot be found in any medical dictionary because it is a political term that anti-choice zealots made up as part of their public relations campaign to stigmatize all abortion...
Isn't abortion already stigmatized? Does anyone brag about having an abortion? It is something most people do with regret, if not great regret? And for good reason right? A case can be made that intact dilation and extraction (is that the proper term?)is tantamount to infanticide. Maybe it should be outlawed. Still, does anyone honestly think abortion will ever again become illegal in this country? The culture wars are over and the left has won a resounding victory.
Backslider,
Huck Finn still #5 on the list. Mainly for frequent use of the N word.
The timing was planned to preclude the Niger story from airing. The plan worked to perfection. As soon as the story aired friendly bloggers were tipped off on font problems with the CBS documents and the White House would even disseminate the documents to other news sources right away. Rove had surpassed his mentor Lee Atwater in the sphere of sinister political maneuvering.
Remember cunning has forever been the tool of evil rulers. Farewell democracy
This sounds likely, but it means that our press is incredibly weak and inept. Could they be that weak? Will they ever get angry?
Republican values: Once every few years we give you the opportunity to deny you are stupid and poor by voting for us. We don't believe in these values but we know the worse things get for you, the more likely it is that you vote for us.
what about St Sinead O'Connor?? didn't she qualify in Ireland?
heard she took out a full page ad saying she wasn't nuts; i think Joan of Arc did the same thing at one time
Philalethes Let's just cut to the end of the bitch session shall we?
Go find a damned medical text website.
Something. ANYTHING that has the details.
You knew what I was saying when I said I didn't study the details.
It doesn't mean I'm butt-f*cking ignorant of the whole subject, just not an expert like yourself.
So put your money where your mouth is and pull up the physical details of how the procedure is performed.
Otherwise quit bitching over semantics.
MYOB'
.
As the late Frank Zappa pointed out in a Playboy interview, don't you think it's odd that the tree in the Garden of eden was called "The Tree of Knowledge" and that the awareness gained by eating its fruit incurred God's wrath?
Early esoteric Christianity dealt with this at great length...particularly the Ophites, who worshipped the snake as an emanation of the divine into a flawed world built by a flawed god. The snake was an intercessor not unlike Jesus.
With all due respect to Frank Zappa, the concept itself is centuries-old, and the reason it's not in the New Testament has more to do with politics and schism than anything else.
Well, it is pretty straightfoward and isn't it true? Except for the banning the bible nonsense?
Diogenes | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:03 pm | #
Yup, what I said on the "Iraqi People" holds true here.
Diogenes = shithead
Thanks for the website, MYOB. I wasn't aware of it, but I have read quite a few books on the origins of Christianity and on its treatment of other religions. Those have been very helpful in understanding the stuff in the Bible, especially together with books that talk about the society at the time and its rules and norms.
Of course this approach is impossible for a fundamentalist and even impossible to use in a debate. That's one of the things I despair of: that one cannot reasons with a fundamentalist except within the bounds of their belief system.
"A case can be made that intact dilation and extraction (is that the proper term?)is tantamount to infanticide. "
Only by fools and idiots. Which, Diogenes/Chimpy2/DC, is what your antics encourage me to think of you. Go troll somewhere else - if I have to read one more round of your careful concern for the members of this board I swear I'm going to emulate Hecate and buy you off.
Huck Finn, despite use of tne "n" word, is one of the greatest anti-slavery, anti-bigotry novels ever written. The key part is where Huck realizes that by helping a Negro escape, he will be sent to Hell, and he decides he's just gonna have to go to Hell, then.
The culture wars are over and the left has won a resounding victory.
I hope you're not implying that women on the right don't get abortions, because I'd have to laugh in your face.
It's a victory for all women who want to make their own choices about their bodies.
Diogenes is a troll. And not a very bright one at that.
MYOB:
I ask again: What does "partial birth" mean?
It's funny you'd ask me to put aside semantics when you're arguing over semantics. Explain to me what the words "partial birth," and why they're accurate. How hard is that?
With all due respect to Frank Zappa, the concept itself is centuries-old, and the reason it's not in the New Testament has more to do with politics and schism than anything else.
Philalethes - 5:29 pm
Zappa didn't claim to be the origin of the idea. I just became aware of it after he pointed it out.
Don't know what you are trying to say with ".. the reason it's not in the New Testament has more to do with politics and schism than anything else."
"But they're running the country". Thanks for calling a spade a spade, Dave Johnson!
Backslider
Patrick was a real person. St Bridget, however, may have been derived from an old Irish goddess. But when I'm celebrating the Feast of the Unconquerored Sun (Sol Invictus) on Dec 25 every year, I try not to think about what Christianity "borrows."
Here, also is a statement by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, who feel that each case is unique and the decision should be left up to the woman and her doctor, not legislators.
How DARE Hal Lindsey not take the book of Revelations literally
Hal Lindsey has been proven wrong so many times over the 35 years or so he's been around that Tim LaHaye finally figured out he wasn't going to get rich off telling people not to have sex, came over, kicked Lindsey's ass, and chased him off his home turf.
It's a wonder that anyone gives him airtime any more.
God is just pretend.
Ok, I haven't read all of this thread, but have read enough of it to say to those of you BLAMING this RNC crap on Arkansas:
Fuck you.
It's not the fault of Arkansas or the people in it that the RNC decided to send that crap in here.
And for what it's worth, the only people who are stupid enough to believe or be swayed by this were already either going to vote for Bush, or don't vote. There's a pretty good possibility that it will convince some people who were planning on voting for Bush to either vote against him or not vote at all.
I love the attitude of some supposed "liberals" that allows them to make insulting and degrading comments about areas of the country that we still have a very good chance of winning. A week of Clinton campaigning in Arkansas for Kerry would put it in Kerry's column. But it's more important for you to show off your "superiority" by slandering people on the basis of something they didn't even do. Great game plan, morons.
No, Patrick was an actual person. A lot of saints from Ireland fit into the category that you're talking about, though; most prominently, Bridget.
Orville Redenbacher | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:26 pm | #
Ah. I did not know that. Huh. I remember reading somewhere that there was some question over his existence. Maybe it was that there were no smakes in the first place.
Huck Finn still #5 on the list. Mainly for frequent use of the N word.
Kerry Nation | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:28 pm | #
This just makes me teeth-gritting mad, maybe worse than some conservative dingbat wanting to ban Ozzy for his so-called "Satanic music". People - even good people like Huck - talked like that back then. This country has this obsessive need to warp history so that we've always been this clean and pure thing. We "brought civilization" to the Indians and "slavery wasn't that bad". Life was "better" back in the old days and nobody was as nasty to each other or as deviant as they are now.
Just...arrr...I get a headache just typing that. Jesus.
But when I'm celebrating the Feast of the Unconquerored Sun (Sol Invictus)
I want a tauroctony scene I can set up on my front lawn.
Yo, folks. Every Christmas season, I get a Planned Parenthood donation letter. I asked how many of you subscribe. No answer. Talk away, but put your money where your mouth is. Don't make me bring out the speculum.
Thanks for the link to blogactive.com, David E. It is certainly incomprehensible to me that gay men can take up posts in this homophobic and fascistic administration. Self-loathing perhaps as in the case of women who serve as facade for a blatantly misogynist administration?
MYOB,
Word games are exactly what the Repugs play, and very well. That's the problem. Dems' have to learn this skill to finally defeat these assholes.
Hey, if this is a nation "under God," fuck God.
"it's banned from the schools as far as mandatory reading is concerned and that's the issue.
If that's the issue, why isn't it in the flyer?"
That's really funny. The 'winger is that because the Bible isn't mandatory in schools that that is the same as banning it. More weirdness from the Wrong side of the isle.
-
I mean, the bible *has* been banned by folks in schools. At the very least, you can't read biblical passages aloud for religious purposes can you?
Ironically, selections from the Bible are now included in the Norton Anthology of English Literature that I use in a public community college sophomore level English lit. survey course.
(Whew!)
This is not something that was in my old Norton from undergrad days, many moons ago now. No, it isn't "public school" in the sense of compulsory attendance. But then, that's the reason for the decisions banning the required reading of the Bible.
Considering, here in Houston, how many Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and non-believers we have in the public schools, that's a good thing.
I'm from Mississippi. I'll make fun of Arkansas if I want to. Actually, it's a very pretty state and the people are nice. However, I did once spend the night in a roadside park outside of West Memphis, and I don't wish to repeat the experience, frankly.
Philalethes I've already stated that I am more than willing to amend my opinion on the subject. Simply provide the details on the procedure.
Just because the words partial birth abortion are not the technical name does not mean it isn't correct in it's description.
I'm just trying to ensure that we here on this board don't start resorting to the kind of bullshit word games that the freepers and other wingnuts use.
I ask you to pull up the details.
I have no trouble being proven wrong cause as long as you provide me with the Bush-bane, aka 'facts', then I'm all the more willing to accede the point.
Just tell me if the words 'partial birth abortion' are not physically correct descriptions of the procedure.
I will concede the point you made that it's all a bullshit tactic on the part of the wingers, but that was never my argument in the first place.
Let's end this by proving me wrong with the correct facts.
MYOB'
.
Diogenes is a troll. And not a very bright one at that.
Hecate
Thus, the need for the lamp.
"Yo, folks. Every Christmas season, I get a Planned Parenthood donation letter. I asked how many of you subscribe. No answer. Talk away, but put your money where your mouth is. Don't make me bring out the speculum.
Sue | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:38 pm | #"
What is your point, asshole?
"This just makes me teeth-gritting mad, maybe worse than some conservative dingbat wanting to ban Ozzy for his so-called "Satanic music". People - even good people like Huck - talked like that back then. This country has this obsessive need to warp history so that we've always been this clean and pure thing. We "brought civilization" to the Indians and "slavery wasn't that bad". Life was "better" back in the old days and nobody was as nasty to each other or as deviant as they are now."
I agree, but for a slightly different reason. I think it negates the real courage and imagination it took for people to start thinking differently about these issues. At one time "everyone" thought blacks and women and gay people and a whole host of groups were inferior--even many members of those groups. It really took a lot to think differently, and I hate the attempt to rewrite that history and make it seem like just a few, bad people were bigots or sexist or whatever, so all it took was a little gumption to be different.
And are "we" really trying to remove "under God"? Last I heard, that was to do with a specific court case. Where is it on the Democratic Party platform?
It's not in the platform, but I'd happily see it removed and I'd happily see the pledge abolished as well.
I don't want to ban the bible, but I'm a little sick of having it thrown at me all the damned time.
This is all about deperation. They are worried about shoring up their base- but the fact that they think that this tactic might work makes me sick to my stomach. We're a polarized nation, and the split is largely a religious/cultural one. I don't see how we can fix that. It's a recipe for disaster.
Next GOP ad: "Liberals demand mandatory Koran teaching"
I love the attitude of some supposed "liberals" that allows them to make insulting and degrading comments about areas of the country that we still have a very good chance of winning. A week of Clinton campaigning in Arkansas for Kerry would put it in Kerry's column. But it's more important for you to show off your "superiority" by slandering people on the basis of something they didn't even do. Great game plan, morons.
Jennifer
i would expect clinton down there in arkansas right at the end when it matters most. and just because kerry is pulling money out arkansas, it doesn't mean that some 527 or PAC won't pick up the slack in terms of media exposure. I would expect it to get really negative in the swing states and having kerry announce he's pulling money out of there, is more posturing by the campaign as to not get painted further by the negative brush. if their internals say arkansas can be won, they will spend money there - one way or another - just like missouri - and there may be a bigger national strategy in store -- we don't know the inner workings of how they make media buys in Kerry/Edwards04
regarding the "liberal" stamp and equating "superiority" with slander, there's probably some truth to that - but as much truth that a good percentage of arkansas lives with a light bulb swinging from the ceiling too - It is what it is, down there, and the RNC would only spend the money if they knew that it would have a positive effect.
those of you BLAMING this RNC crap on Arkansas:
Fuck you.
It's not the fault of Arkansas or the people in it that the RNC decided to send that crap in here.
Jennifer - 5:36 pm
Quote and name those you are addressing your rage at.
Like I said, I have problems with abortion. But they're my own personal problems and they're my business, not anyone else's. Therefore, I personally am not going to give a woman a reason to get one. What everyone else does is their own business, and out of my control. Abortion should always be legal (unless a better method becomes available). In the meantime, I'd be happy to see more pregnancies prevented with birth control, and fewer terminated by abortion. Not least because it's cheaper, easier, and safer. Let me know when the Right starts promoting sex ed and birth control...'til then, I'll consider them hypocritical sacks of shit.
Anyone who doesn't understand the origin, purpose, and rhetorical dishonesty of the term "partial birth abortion" has some homework to do, to say the least.
Ok, one more time. If abortion bothered me (and it doesn't) and I'd been trying for 30 years to criminalize it and so far had not been successful, and, if I knew that even if abortion were criminalized that would not stop abortions (as it didn't stop them back when it was criminalized) but would only subject women to unsafe, back-alley abortions, well, I, for one, would sit down and have a little think.
And here's what I would think. I would think, "Gee, this isn't working. What I'm doing hasn't stopped abortion and it won't stop abortion even if, as seems increasingly unlikely, I'm successful. So what else could I do that would have a better chance of achieving my goal?"
And, then, as a result of that little think, I'd go do some research to see if there are some strategies that do effectively reduce abortions. And that research would show me that safe, effective, free birth control would reduce abortions. Accurate, early, honest, sex education would reduce abortion. Education (of all kinds) for girls reduces unwanted pregnancy which leads to abortions. And so on.
And then I'd pull my head out of my butt and quit trying to criminalize aborions. Assuming that my real goal were to prevent abortions and not to control the lives and sexuality of women.
But that's just me.
RMJ - Are you teaching on the west side of town? Does the name Janie ring a bell? (I know, longshot)
The best part of this is that the CFO of the Republican National Committee is actually gay. The hypocrisy is neverending...
... And lobotomies for Republicans will be the law of the land.
Did ya'll even notice that this thread got hi-jacked into a discussion of "partial birth" abortion?
Yeah, that's a real issue. Sure. Like any woman has ever actually asked to have a "partial birth abortion". Right.
It's a purely political descripiton of an extremely rare procedure only used to save a woman's life. It's unbelievable that they even bothered to "name" this issue. But, now that they have that grotesque name, they shove it in people's faces at every opportunity. Don't take the bait and even try to argue this one.
This is what they do.
Kay
But that's just me.
Hecate | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:44 pm | #
Well, yeah. And that's the problem. Your only agenda would actually be stopping abortions, and the people who back you wouldn't be more interested creating an emotional smokescreen so they could get on with fucking over the country.
And are "we" really trying to remove "under God"? Last I heard, that was to do with a specific court case. Where is it on the Democratic Party platform?
just as there are a number of people who are going to get energized with such blatant manipulation in a positive way, there is a vast non-religious block of voters who are going to get energized from this bullshit - I actually think that Rove and Hughes are blowing their load too early with this garbage, and the benefits have a limited shelf life in terms of energizing the base.
I am sure Soros and Ickes won't be as stupid with their strategy -- the blitz sitting in the film can is going to make Stalingrad look like First Bull Run
I love the attitude of some supposed "liberals" that allows them to make insulting and degrading comments about areas of the country that we still have a very good chance of winning. A week of Clinton campaigning in Arkansas for Kerry would put it in Kerry's column. But it's more important for you to show off your "superiority" by slandering people on the basis of something they didn't even do. Great game plan, morons.
Jennifer
Some things are too important Jennifer. You know, word games etc...
It's quite clear that the US cannot achieve it's manifest destiny by bringing forward the Rapture to its rightful place within our generation with the sodomites out there raping Lot's daughters. Y'all should just accept it and start keeping an eye out for the ethereal staircase into the clouds hm'ok?
Bush holding hands with Egypt PM. Approved?
But, but, that is different. It's not as if he was kissing him or anything.
Austin Lizards
This link's for you, Robert M. Jeffers!
mp3 for Jesus Loves Me (but he can't stand you) and many other songs available there.
TOW
Oops, got the link wrong. Here it is again.
Bush holding hands with Egypt PM. Approved?
C'mon guys, quit with the word games. Partial birth abortion *is* the name given to the procedure. It may not be it's technical name, but then again a Dog's technical name is canine right?
Er, not really. Do you talk about 'consumption', or 'the ague'?
Actually, 'partial birth abortion' is as medically accurate a term as 'cooties' or 'the lurgy'.
Does that pamphlet play banjo music when you open it up?
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Clinton. Arkansas. Churches with African-American congregations. Sold.
re-education camps for homosexuals! we have to lead these people to the lawd!
Just tell me if the words 'partial birth abortion' are not physically correct descriptions of the procedure.
No, they're not. Happy?
They're not because the modifying phrase "partial birth" is meaningless. "Birth" is not an acceptable rhetorical equivalent for "dilation and extraction." And there's no such thing as "partial birth"; it's an emotionally loaded value judgment, rather than a scientific or legal term.
To the extent that you can make a case that "partial birth abortion" is a meaningful phrase, you'd have to define it clearly using agreed-upon legal or medical terms. That hasn't happened...in fact, the sheer pseudoscientific vagueness of the PBA Ban is one of the things that makes it so totally unconstitutional.
Philalethes
Give us a link to a technically correct website that gives the step by step details of the procedure.
Please?
MYOB'
.
Intact D&X procedures are extremely rare, carried out in roughly 0.2% (two-tenths of one percent) of all abortions in the USA. They may be performed during the third trimester of pregnancy if:
The fetus is dead.
The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth.
The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
The fetus is alive, but the woman wishes to end her pregnancy for non-medical/psychological reasons.
Some of the fetuses which fall into this category have developed hydrocephalus. Approximately 1 in 2,000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus while in the womb; this is about 5,000 a year in the United States. The defect is not usually discovered until late in the second trimester of pregnancy. If a fetus develops hydrocephalus, the head may expand to a size of up to 250% of the radius of a normal newborn skull, making it impossible for it to pass through the cervix. In such a case, the physician may elect to perform an intact D&X procedure by draining off the fluid from the brain area, collapsing the fetal skull and withdrawing the dead fetus. However, a caesarian section delivery would allow the safe delivery of a hydrocephalic fetus without significant danger to the mother.
In the 2 to 3 day procedure, the cervix is dilated. The fetus is delivered feet-first. The surgeon inserts a sharp object into the back of the fetus' head, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains and its fluids are extracted. The head of the fetus contracts at this point and allows the fetus to be more easily removed from the uterus. The fetus can then be removed with less damage to the woman. The technique was pioneered by Dr. Martin Haskell in 1992.
Intact D&X procedures are not performed during the first trimester, because there are better ways to perform abortions. There is no need to follow such a procedure because the fetus' head is quite small at this stage of gestation and can be quite easily removed from the woman's uterus.
Actually, mailing this to people in any state shows you what rethugs think of their base. Some real fundies will, of course, fall for this lie, but the others ought to be very pissed off that their intelligence has been insulted.
Maybe it was that there were no smakes in the first place.
Yes, that's true.
Or, at least, if Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland, he also dug up all snake fossils and shipped them off, too.
What about VASECTOMIES for those Republican wingnuts??
And in some of those cases, if the baby is healthy, a Caesarian section can be performed and is.
This is a very, very rare procedure.
But, but, that is different. It's not as if he was kissing him or anything.
say, that Hosni's got a purtee mouth.
Actually, mailing this to people in any state shows you what rethugs think of their base. Some real fundies will, of course, fall for this lie, but the others ought to be very pissed off that their intelligence has been insulted.
The DNC should send out mailings with the same "Bible: BANNED" kind of envelope, but in the letter inside, point out exactly this to the recipients.
Those aren't real gay men on the cover, my gaydar reads a ZERO~!
Jennifer.
I think a comparison of NY to either Alabama or Arkansas should be enough to justify the slander.
I think the proper words should be to refer to the 'dixie south' rather than just 'The south'.
I have too many friends and relatives in Florida who will tell you the state is far more modern than the likes of Alabama or Arkansas.
Huntsville, Alabama is a very modern, high-tech NASA town, but it's sort of like a cherry sitting on a shit pie.
It sticks out alone from the rest.
MYOB'
.
My "rage"? Ok, here's a few examples:
To be fair, I want to ban Arkansas, as well as sell both Dakotas to Canada, and saw off Texas and push it into the Gulf; but ban a book? Never.
(In retrospect, Canada is too smart to make an offer, and Mexico will just push Texas back at us...but maybe the UN will still ban Arkansas, so that's something.)
Great Cthulhu | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:12 pm | #
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They neglected to include a picture of two inbred morons with the caption "This is Arkansas anyway"
Roddy McCorley | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:39 pm | #
Of course, nothing should stop Arkansas from imposing their values on us. And don't Moderate Republicans look as ridiculous as the Log Cabins did for acting as enablers for these bozos? Moderate Republicans: you have nothing to lose but your chains! Bolt your party now! It has been overrun and no longer is the party you joined! Try taking action for once -- you might just learn to like it!
D.T. | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:02 pm | #
Uh...someone explain to me how it's the fault of people who live in Arkansas - a state that produced Fullbright, Dale Bumpers, Bill Clinton, not to mention that it elected the first woman to the US Senate, weirdly politically progressive while being socially conservative - that this shit was sent in here by the RNC? Why is that a good excuse to denigrate people who very well might have a bare bulb dangling from the ceiling, but who have generally shown good common sense in voting their own interests?
Please explain to this dumb hick redneck why I shouldn't point out that these types of comments are offensive and serve against our interests.
Actually, mailing this to people in any state shows you what rethugs think of their base. Some real fundies will, of course, fall for this lie, but the others ought to be very pissed off that their intelligence has been insulted.
I love telling my neighbors that I'm a Democrat. Most of them ask to see the altar and the goat's head.
What is your point, asshole?
jri | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 5:41 pm | #
Do you need a reading lesson?
we'll make damn sure that teens can get safe, effective birth control without parental consent...right?
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 4:23 pm | #
Right!
MYOB:
Post one yourself, or post a hundred. The fact remains: There's no medically recognized meaning to "partial birth," no such thing as being "partially born," no such thing as "partial birth" abortion.
And given the horrifying and rare circumstances under which the procedure is most often done--i.e., in wanted pregnancies where there are severe birth defects, or in cases of rape and incest--to try to demonize women and doctors with terms like PBA is far more sadistic and gruesome than anything done on the operating table.
Just tell me if the words 'partial birth abortion' are not physically correct descriptions of the procedure.
No, they're not. Happy?
Philalethes was right, infanticide is the correct term.
I remember listening to a former professor talk about history and it being twisted by words.
He used the analogy that if the Devil said he was evil, would christians agree with the devil or not?
The notion being that if the devil is the 'prince of lies' then how would we know truth from lie?
So if the devil walked up to a christian and said "You're right. I'm evil."
Wouldn't it be the christian's duty to accuse even that statement of being a lie?
Then that would make the devil a 'good guy'.
But if it was actually a true statement then doesn't that mean christians can agree with the devil? Or as the insult suggests, doesn't this mean that christians see eye to eye with the devil?
The guy was a genius when it came to uncovering the true logic of words and sentences.
As for what this has to do with the subject at hand?
It simply means that just because they are lying, evil hearted bastards, doesn't mean they are wrong all the time. We may see their intent, but sometimes the truth hurts more than lies.
MYOB'
.
Let's end this by proving me wrong with the correct facts.
Might I suggest the medical name is the correct one? And "partial birth" is intentionally inflammatory? Implying a "partial birth" of the fetus (i.e., successful natural conclusion of the pregnancy) that is unnaturally thwarted?
The decision of how to describe a medical procedure is itself indicative of the intent to be accurate, or not. Should it be, IOW, "amputation"? Or "sawing a limb off"? Both are, technically, accurate. But one describes a medical procedure.
The other describes a method of torture. Or certainly seems to.
Those aren't real gay men on the cover, my gaydar reads a ZERO~!
Yeah, they weren't until they posed for that picture, then the pure adrenalin rush of hot homosity took over their members and they left their wives and families in Arkansas and moved to San Francisco...
I also test individuals on word attack, comprehension and general grade level skills. Please ask for my charges per hour.
Love, Asshole
Or, at least, if Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland, he also dug up all snake fossils and shipped them off, too.
Orville Redenbacher | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 6:00 pm | #
Well, according to my extremely fundie aunt, the dinosaur fossils are just a way God "tests" your faith. I told her I found that idea highly disturbing, but maybe God figured the Irish wouldn't ask too many questions.
In our rush to accomodate the wingnuts and pretend they're here to discuss abortion rationally, I think we're forgetting that they aren't. So:
Dear Trolls, abortion is legal and our country and its women are better off for it. Hahaha. You're little moralistic plans, if enacted, would backfire just as prohibition did. Though I suppose a woman seeking a backalley abortion and dying because the surgeon was unqualified and unregulated would make you HAPPY, wouldn't it? Just desserts for her, eh? Some pro-life argument... So shut your yappers and avoid having an abortion yourselves, you half-baked self-righteous, authoritarian fundamentalist asses pretending to be conservatives...
The more you show the faulty and ideologically inconsistent link in your feeble minds between a need for economic liberalism and social authoritarianism the more you'll be the laughingstock of anyone who doesn't get their facts from USA Today factoid sheets.
Abortion is legal, so are a lot of other things that you disagree with, get over it, it's not your problem and it's not up to you to decide the solution in any case.
I dunno... I suspect we're at the point where this is just a team sport. Most Republicans may not believe this trash, but they probably accept it's a useful arrow in the quiver. I ridicule moderate Bush supporters (yes, there are still some) about Bush saying that "God speaks through me" and they just shrug their shoulders.
The FT has an interesting article this weekend on the lamentable death of the political party as an entity. Possibly it's not something to be mourned.
"We "brought civilization" to the Indians and "slavery wasn't that bad"."
I'm currently reading a history of Cook's South Sea expeditions. When the Maori's of New Zealand would only throw rocks at Cook and his crew or run away when he tried to make contact with him he got the brilliant idea of trying to kidnap a canoeful of young men. The plan was to keep them on board a few days, treat them nicely, give them nice gifts, and send them on their way with stories of how wonderful these strange white men were.
The young men weren't cooperative and in the struggle several of them were shot to death. They managed to get a couple boys on their ship and reassured them that they weren't going to eat them or do them any more harm. Cook then decided it wasn't such a good idea and dropped them off onshore near a Maori settlement despite the young men's vehement protests not to do so.
Apparently, they didn't belong to this settlement and weren't on good terms with the inhabitants. The boys claimed that they would be eaten if they were left there, but Cook thought they were just being melodramatic. Later on, much to his horror, he found out not all but some of the Maori acually practiced ritual cannibalism on their enemies. There's every likelihood the boys ended up on the evening menu.
Ah for the good old days! As the American spin off of the Brits we're still hatching these well-intentioned but misguided paternalistic schemes.
From Maoris to Iraqis we're keeping the tradition alive.
Anonymous, speaking of ignorant.
You know, sweetheart if you refuse to allow yourself to be educated and get the facts, it only shows what a brainwashed bumpkin you are.
I feel sorry for you. Living in the dark must be confining.
Please explain to this dumb hick redneck why I shouldn't point out that these types of comments are offensive and serve against our interests.
There have been a lot of stupidass Yankees around this week saying a lot of ignorant things.
We just have to keep calling them on it.
And as for the ongoing semantics battle over "partial birth abortion", it's a made-up oxymoronic term.
Pregnancy ends in a finite number of ways: live birth, still birth, miscarriage, or abortion.
Obviously, only one of these terms refers to the deliberate intervention in ending a pregnancy, that is abortion. It is distinct from both of the "birth" terms. Therefore, it is impossible for anything to be a combination of both "birth" and "abortion".
Bottom line: it's either a birth or an abortion, it cannot by definition be both.
Removing "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance. Check!
Allowing teenagers to get abortions without parental concent. Check!
Overturning the ban on partial birth abortion. Check!
Allowing same-sex marriage. Check!
You mean are not for these things, Atrios? I never thought you were such the conservative.
It's funny...I would've highlighted very different sections of what Diogenes posted.
Sorry, MYOB...but dilating a woman's cervix with drugs, and sticking vacuums into a fetus's brain, is not what most people recognize as "birth"...or even "partial birth." Especially if the fetus is already dead, or has a head the size of its own body.
I think it's repulsive that women have to go through stuff this horrible, only to be treated as amoral infanticides by the Right. How would you like to be pregnant, and go in for a check-up, and find out that you have a hydrocephalic baby stillborn in your womb? How would you like to be artificially dilated, and have your dead child's brains sucked out...and then be treated like a horrible person by a bunch of bad-faith morons with a political axe to grind?
It's absolutely fucking sick, is what it is.
Oh wait, I understand now, Atrios meant the idea that liberals wanted to actually ban the bible (as is indicated with astonishing literalism on both sides of the mailer) was ridiculous. Yeah, OK, I can see that. Sorry, I jumped the gun a little there...
Schwa?'s voice is added to the cacophony of ignoramuses.
Being a Southerner with impeccable street cred - or perhaps "dirt-road cred" - I would like to point out that there is a reason the RNC sends this mailing to constituents in Arkansas and, I believe, West Virgina rather than, say, San Francisco (lest we forget, home of the Savage Weiner) or Manhattan. There's a lot of two-stroke jackasses in this part of the country that eat this sort of shit up. This wouldn't play in, say, Atlanta or even Nashville - or, for that matter, Little Rock - but I bet it'd go over like gang-busters in Americus or Tupelo or Phenix City.
Philalethes was right, infanticide is the correct term.
Anonymous
No, "infanticide" would be more accurate for something like...oh, I don't know...killing children with cluster bombs.
Yeah, OK, I can see that. Sorry, I jumped the gun a little there...
Schwa?
Try to remember it next time, OK?
No, "infanticide" would be more accurate for something like...oh, I don't know...killing children with cluster bombs.
Bingo, dear Philalethes.
The hypocrisy of the wingers knows no bounds.
My period was 2
Well, according to my extremely fundie aunt, the dinosaur fossils are just a way God "tests" your faith.
At least she gave you an answer. All fundies I've asked with similar questions, just sort of look at me without responding or look off without resonding. There's something improper about ignoring facts, logic and reason, to me. When the fundies took over they brought that mass personality characteristic to the party. Ordinary wing-nuts picked up that tactic but not consciously. They just sort of absorbed it. It works. When you're ignoring facts, logic and reason while marching forward gaining more power and winning because the opposition thinks you're nuts and recoils, why not.
"They just sort of absorbed it. It works. When you're ignoring facts, logic and reason while marching forward gaining more power and winning because the opposition thinks you're nuts and recoils, why not.
Incognito | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 6:24 pm | #"
Classical ideologues.
I don't think this post is really about what issues we stand for, we're too pluralistic to be defined by a short 4 part check off list.
I think it's about a government becoming more fascist in its tendencies by producing propaganda and using scare tactics to manipulate the electorate.
Backslider - bingo, what you're basically saying (and I meant to say) is that this mailing is reflective of the GOP's condescending, sneering and cyncial attitude towards the people in these states. It's just disgusting to me to see it parroted by people on this board, and to see some equate poverty with being dull-witted.
Many of them at least are smart enough to see that they're being called idiots, and it will backfire and cost Bush at least a few votes. These people know that the Democratic county judge and their Democratic mayor and state senator or representative sit in the next pew at church and have never shown any inclination to "ban the Bible".
As I said earlier, people who are stupid enough to buy it were already going to vote for Bush.
I would've highlighted very different sections of what Diogenes posted.
You know, if we described in graphic terms exactly what happens when a doctor does liposuction, or strips veins from a leg to use in heart surgery, or abrades bunred skin, we could gross out most of us non-medical types, too. I could describe the process of digestion in a way that would probably leave most of us less than hungry for dinner. So when wingers go on and on about "sucked the brains out" I figure that's the part that worries them the most because it's just a little too close to home.
Sorry, these bracelets bang the keyboard. My period was 2 weeks late. I'm married. I'm 49 years old. I have one 21 year old, and 3 stepchildren in their late 20's. . What would you do in my case? I really don't like it when men try to decide abortion based on the age of the fetus, the viability of the child, the nastiness of the operation - men really don't have a reason to get involved in this. We need your support, not your testosterone.
Sorry, MYOB...but dilating a woman's cervix with drugs, and sticking vacuums into a fetus's brain, is not what most people recognize as "birth"...or even "partial birth." Especially if the fetus is already dead, or has a head the size of its own body.
Not much difference between that and a woman scraping a fetus out of her uterous with the end of a wire coat hanger.
Hope they still make wire hangers if they ban choice.
what's ironic is they had to hire "pretend gays" to photograph for their brochure... aren't they worried that these guys will end up burning in hell? 
Hecate, I do believe you're correct.
Look, anything scientific scares the pants off of them. All that science stuff is so mysterious and how can we trust it? {/winger}
What I want to know, is how do I get off this fucking insane planet?
I went to St Ignoramus (Our Lady of the Worthless Miracle) until I realized that the church had $10M to pay off victims of priestly abuse.
i wonder where they got that coin? besides some insurance. That's why these assholes need to be taxed like any other business.
they can afford lawyers better than you or I ever could, and they have sweeping political ties that we could only dream of. Their real estate is tax-exempt and they know how to play the game in this regard - not that any of this was ever put to a vote "for the people, by the people" - it's a freakin criminal enterprise. if their names ended in a vowel, guys like Rudi Gulliani would put them in prison for being a racketeering influenced corrupt organization.
it's all a matter of how you look at it - if you pay taxes you are subsidizing the religious wingnuts and "their pursuit of freedom," which places the minority in a position of political power, rather than the majority of people who do not affiliate themselves to any religious organization.
WAKE UP!!! it's not an attack on God, the Bible or its "recommendations," it's an assault on secular freedom.
Bottom line: it's either a birth or an abortion, it cannot by definition be both.
Jennifer
And what is aborting a baby that has been gestating 9 months called? Infanticide?
"..to try to demonize women and doctors with terms like PBA is far more sadistic and gruesome than anything done on the operating table.."
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 6:08 pm | #
Dude. You are clearly insane.
Partially removing the fetus, jamming a sharp object into it's head. Sucking it's brains out. Collapsing the skull, allowing the body to be removed.
I knew this without the gory details given by Diogenes at 09.25.04 - 5:58pm.
I support abortion rights except in the third trimester. But I won't support any legislation trying to take away this right. I prefer to follow Clinton's approach to help people remove the need for an abortion.
But to moan over a doctor or a women being scrutinized when a fetus in the third trimester is having a sharp object jammed into his or her head and having their brains sucked out is pure insanity.
This is clearly a case where most of us here will never be able to properly judge this until we see the procedure performed in person.
MYOB'
.
What the hell are you people arguing about?!? Banning Abortion would not serve any interest in the USA besides allowing our faux-Christians to believe that despite living in the biggest capitalist nightmare on earth their camels will somehow pass through the needle's eye. So, as it will not serve any interest except a religious one to ban abortion, our gov't sort of HAS to allow abortion. Get over yourselves fundies, you had your time in the sun hundreds of years ago in Spain when you tortured the Jews and Arabs and the "wussy" Christians. Write your fan-fiction about the Inquisitions and leave us modern folk ALONE! To recap, unless I missed something and the newly passed 28th amendment reads as follows:
"Dear Hoi Polloi, here is an Amendment we wrote and passed without you knowing. All those rules in the Bible, even the batshit crazy ones that require stoning people for eating waffles with blueberry syrup on the second Thursday of May, are part of the US Law Code now. And the term "Senator" is to be changed to 'STONE COLD KILLAH 4 CHRIST' because we're like crusaders and stuff. Damn, that's awesome!"
Abortion is legal and should be even if fundies disagree with it. Both law and common sense say it's not their damn choice to make...
Partial birth abortion *is* the name given to the procedure.
BZZZZT! No, sorry, wrong.
Get him the fuck out of here, Johnny...
tooscared - Obviously, it would be called "an abortion", since it's not a "birth".
Even you should have been able to figure that one out.
So when wingers go on and on about "sucked the brains out" I figure that's the part that worries them the most because it's just a little too close to home.
Hecate
She shoots...she scores!
What's up with MYOB, anyway? I was under the impression he was just a regular poster, but lately he seems a little...erratic. Refusing to see ANY similarity between the terms "feminazi" and "partial birth abortion" is way, way out there in troll territory, it seems to me...
What I want to know, is how do I get off this fucking insane planet?
fourlegsgood
If it wasn't for Christianity, we could have avoided the Dark Ages and so much scientic advances they've always tried to block. We would possibly be about 1000 years more advanced technologically and could get away from them to other planets we would probably have explored and settled by now.
What I want to know, is how do I get off this fucking insane planet?
I know that people have always had their share of complaints with the stuff that goes on in this country, but I have never heard so many express such, at times, despair and a desire to get the heck out of here.
Thank you, President Bush. You have disillusioned a whole generation of Americans.
I'm not leaving. This is our country, and we're going to get it back. In November. The entire planet is on our side.
Now stop whining!
Not much difference between that and a woman scraping a fetus out of her uterus with the end of a wire coat hanger.
I pray no one ever goes through this. I reposted it because it bears repeating.
What if your daughter, finding only support for a full term pregnancy, was frightened into attempting the procedure on her own?
She could die or she may not...the fetus may die and the procedure cause irreparable harm to the girl...
If she lives, she will always remember the graphic violence she committed on herself trying to escape the government's domination of her body.
I wanna lick Bush's dick. (snicker)
I remember listening to a former professor talk about history and it being twisted by words.
Well, I had a response to this kind of "chop logic," as Socrates would call it; but Haloscan ate it.
Probably just as well.
Trying to re-write The Liar's Paradox and apply it to this situation is poor argument, indeed. There are no plans afoot by any legitimate political group to ban the Christian Bible. The "under God" case was decided by the Supreme Court, in favor of the language of the pledge, so that is a non-issue as well. And as for "partial birth abortion," well, I've posted on that.
The issue here is not that there may be hidden in this claptrap (the pamphlet, I mean) a kernel of truth (there isn't), but that a major political party would shamelessly publish and promulgate such trash.
Then, again, this is the group who brought us the impeachment of Bill Clinton, so they clearly haven't hit their personal worst, yet.
Gonna be a bumpy ride......
I support abortion rights except in the third trimester.
Excuse me, but you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Jennifer,
I don't know for sure if it'll backfire, because I've heard enough yay-hoos say the exact same thing. A whole lot of people around here really believe that shit, and will just see the flier as word to truth. Course, you never know. In 2000, Bob Barr ran a campaign that more or less stereotyped his voters - swear to Elvis, he had this rustic country older gentleman say "Bob Barr just's gooder" - and got his ass handed to him. One never knows.
Courtney,
Well, first thing I'd do is take off them braclets. Now, as to how much men should be involved in the abortion debate, I've never been quite comfortable with the concept that we shouldn't have any say in it at all. After all, if it's my kid, it's gonna be my kid if the lady decides to keep the baby. At the same time, way, waaay too many guys do their damnedest to dodge that particular responsibility, so much so that a law had to be made so that guys who didn't got their nuts in a wrench. Is that fucked up to anyone else but me, that we basically had to make it against the law to be a deadbeat dad? Not because it was a new phenomenon, but because it was "the way things were"?
In any event, speaking as a penis carrier, for me the abortion debate begins and ends with one thought: isn't it kind of screwed up that we even have the concept of unwanted children? Haven't we, over the centuries, learned enough to do everything in our power to keep children, well, wanted for those that'll have them?
Echoing Hecate's earlier statement, it seems logical to me that the "pro-life" contingent would as equally feverent for accessible birth control, complete sex education to all children, accessible and afordable pre- and post-natal health care, and - hell, let's just go nuts - an environment that'd fruitful for children to actually grow up in, rather than just being a bit overconcerned about the state of a fetus.
But, like I said, most of the abortion debate in legislative areas is merely a smokescreen, something to keep the rabble riled up so they can keep on dry-sticking us. Bread and circuses, as it were.
Incognito
There is no issue if the child is dead already.
Why would this even be discussed at such a point?
My gripe is with the word play around here. I've already gone on record as refusing to support any anti-abortion laws cause I want to see women make their own adult, mature choices.
But some people around here are clearly in denial. That or they are missing the point. Either way they're clearly playing their own word games with what they say is a word game on the part of the fascists.
Partial birth is indeed a matter of opinion, but I remember people on the left defending Clinton's stand while also confirming the fact that the fetus is often considered to be partially out the birth canal when the procedure is performed.
Again. I'm willing to be proven wrong on the subject. But unless someone here proves it they should just stop the games. And ducking the challenge doesn't help their cause.
MYOB'
.
From what I know, PBAs are rare. It's not like most woman are so sadistic, they wait 8 1/2 months before they terminate a pregnancy. Usually the procedure is performed within the first couple of months when the fetus is only a wad of cells.
I wanna lick Bush's dick. (snicker)
Dude. You are clearly insane.
Well, that settles that.
Seriously, "dude," Robert M. Jeffers nailed your ass to the wall with his analogy between "amputation" and "hacking someone's leg off." Yeah, it's awful to have your leg hacked off...but sometimes it's preferable to dying of gangrene.
To say that we're moaning over a "doctor or woman being scrutizined"--as you put it--is remarkable dishonesty even by Eschaton trolling standards. We're talking about a BAN, not scrutiny. We're also talking about murders and bombings and arson.
You're an asshole. And I hope to God your pecker doesn't end up anywhere where it could conceivably engender a human life.
It's not like most woman are so sadistic, they wait 8 1/2 months before they terminate a pregnancy.
If the fetus is viable, they will not terminate the pregnancy. They will do a C-section!!!!
If it wasn't for Christianity, we could have avoided the Dark Ages and so much scientic advances they've always tried to block. We would possibly be about 1000 years more advanced technologically and could get away from them to other planets we would probably have explored and settled by now.
I love rampant ignorance.
You mean the period that gave us glasses? Buttons? Banks? And that's just the inventions.
How 'bout the rediscovery of Aristotle? The development of ethical theory far beyond the elitist visions of Rome? Plenty to disparage, sure, but plenty to regard as valuable.
"Dark Ages," by the way, is an insult coined by the thinkers of the Renaissance, to pronounce themselves superior. Another mark of historical ignorance: to imagine humanity lived in squalid darkness until "you" came along to survey the scene, and discern good from bad, right from wrong.
At some point Democrats are going to have to learn to play hardball. We can't keep getting run over by these tractor-trailers of lies without responding.
Being a Southerner with impeccable street cred - or perhaps "dirt-road cred" - I would like to point out that there is a reason the RNC sends this mailing to constituents in Arkansas
Yes. It's an insult to the intelligence.
It's not as if people all across America aren't going to hear exactly the same thing from Limbaugh on Monday morning.
This is stupid people politics. It works on Republicans. Thoughtful people should be insulted by it.
Backslider - the reason they actively work to prohibit sex ed and access to birth control is that for them, it's all about controlling women. It has nothing to do with "protecting" babies, whom they forget about once they're born - and in fact actively work to make sure they don't have to pay a cent for those "precious babies" to receive adequate food, shelter, healthcare, and education.
It's never been about the "sanctity of life" for the vast majority of "pro-lifers". It's always been about controlling women and legislating against their fear of female sexuality.
Is everyone e-mailing the media and their friends - this is Nazi-like demagoguery - It is the Big Lie and there's a new one every day.
Uhm, as an agnostic (not knowable) I'm all for teaching people what's in that Book and other religious Books as well - Since the western world was founded on the Judeo Christian ethic - it's appropriate to teach what's in those books - You don't want anyone telling you what's in that book - you want to know firsthand - saves a lot of jabberin'.
And if you're a Christian then The New Testament is your book and it's a pretty good book - Do unto others - turn the other cheek - love your nieghbor as you love yourself - judge not lest ye be judged - the lesson of the Good Samaritan - and last but not least, You're Forgiven for being human. Christ dies so you can be forgiven - it's essential to that story that he dies - No one is responsible - it's pre-ordained - it's his sacrifice to make and ours to accept
It's a big beautiful metaphor and it's the story at the heart of Western civilization - It belongs to all of us -
Can Christians claim the high ground of moral superiority for themselves anyway?
There are more Agnostics that believe these tenets are a good way to guide your life by than Christians it would seem. The also never refer to people like me as agonostic but as an atheist - and they mean it as a slur when they say it -
I don't agree with Atheists any more than I do with any religion - I think to settle on the singular notion that there is no god is as narrow as most religions - truly, who knows what comes? The possibilities are infinite - One of them is no god, who's dead sure about that? -
"What? A burning bush didn't speak to you?"
I believe that the Universe was
How 'bout the rediscovery of Aristotle? The development of ethical theory far beyond the elitist visions of Rome? Plenty to disparage, sure, but plenty to regard as valuable.
It was early Christian terrorist who burned Rome and ancient Greek texts to begin with.
Again. I'm willing to be proven wrong on the subject. But unless someone here proves it they should just stop the games. And ducking the challenge doesn't help their cause.
"Ducking the challenge"?
Now I call you what you are: a coward. You are the one "ducking the challenge." You are the one refusing to respond to the argument made against you. Your willful obstinance only proves you have no response, save to stick your figurative fingers in your figurative eyes and refuse to look.
Bah. In the words of the immortal Molesworth, "I discard you."
Hecate said : "And, I personally do favor abortion for teenagers w/o parental notification. So that after Suzie's stepdad impregnates her, she doesn't have to go get his permission to abort the fetus."
The problem in that example is not the pregnancy, it is abuse and molestation.
Personally, and please do not flog me too hard on this, I feel that there should be parental notification. However... there should also be mechanisms in place to deal with situations like this.
The other problem I see is the return to the "shamed" syndrome if parents have a child with child. Unfortunately I do not have an answer for that one with the exception of removing or preventing that stigma.
The problem to most of the issues the over zealot religious folks bring up and then try to ban or such is they as well as those counter to their thinking never develop solutions to head off the problem to begin with.
They can cry all they want that abstinence is the way, but they fail to recognize that people are people. Hence they either fail or refuse to accept the need to provide for the fall out from abortions not carried out. It is always amazing that they can damn a behavior, but when real consequences occur, simply take the stance that they said it was wrong so it is the other guy's problem. The zealots are the original I Told You So kids. They then feel righteous and trudge onwards while kids and others are left with little recourse.
I always pose the issue, if a woman is raped, why should she carry the child? Are we cruel enough to put that burden on a woman by law? I do not get any great answers at that point.
Then again, the other side of the matter is I think guys should get out of the argument all together (I am a guy by the way). And when I suggest that, it doesn't go over too well either.
Jennifer!
They were kidding! Lighten up!
We are all as a nation tainted and abused around the world for our current government. It doesn't mean we have to defend Bush and declare that America is unworthy of such criticism. I think your defensive reaction is cute but MANY things truly SUCK about Arkansas. There are fine people in every state and I am positive that you are one of them. We're all (I assume) deeply sorry that you were offended by the jokes but jeez, it is Arkansas after all. I want free health care and awesome schools for everyone in Arkansas. I want it to have hospitals and libraries as good as any in the nation. And, above all, I want to let all Arkansans know that there can be BRANCHES in their family trees!
(Don't hate me for being a bastard)
How 'bout the rediscovery of Aristotle? The development of ethical theory far beyond the elitist visions of Rome? Plenty to disparage, sure, but plenty to regard as valuable.
It was early Christian terrorist who burned Rome and ancient Greek texts to begin with.
As I say: much to disparage, much to praise. 'Twas ever thus.
I believe that Bush supporters are:
1. evil
2. stupid
3. wealthy beyond avarice
4. any combination of 1-3
Wrepublicans are never beyond avarice, joby.
If the fetus is viable, they will not terminate the pregnancy. They will do a C-section!!!!
pie
Of course you're right. I don't know that much about it. It's not like abortion is a burning issue within the gay community. But if a human being doesn't have personal control over their own body, they what control do any of us have.
Holy cow. Just read the thread and what a sick one. Ouch. I think it is safe to say the country will remain pro-choice but it doesn't look like the abortion battle will end any time soon. I have to throw myself in with those who wish to keep abortion legal. However, the partial birth procedure is nasty. If it is not killing a child I don't see why it shouldn't be permitted in all cases. And if the women's life depends on it then it should be up to her regardless.
Robert, Um.
Glasses, buttons, and banks are your proofs that the 1,000 year period after Rome's fall doesn't deserve to be called the Dark Ages? Wow. Banks, maybe, had they not existed in Greco-Roman times (and throughout the world even earlier) would be a good example. Glasses, helpful yeah but if you couldn't see back then maybe you should've died (Full disclosure: I'm a self-hating myopic).
Buttons, though, wow. BUTTONS?!? With all that the Renaissance (and later the Enlightment) brought us in the spheres of technology, art, and society... You bring up BUTTONS as a crowning, saving achievement of the Dark Ages? My God.
What side are you on in this debate on abortion? Oh.
OT
Here's a poem for Saturday:
The spider's decision is made, her path cast, candle wick to wicker handle to candle/
in the air, under the lamp, she comes swimming toward me
(have I been sitting here so long?) she will use everything/
nothing comes without labor, she is working so/
hard and I know
nothing all winter can enter this house or this web, not all labor ends in sweetness./
But how do I know what she needs? Maybe simply/
to spin herself a house within a house, on her own terms/
in cold, in silence.
from "An Atlas of the Difficult World" by Adrienne Rich
electionthief, you read the thread, but you didn't learn anything, it seems.
Liberals want to reduce Arkansas's high infant mortality rate to the low rates of Massachusetts.
Ad Absurdum
It's 'cause they let Jeebus feed 'em, and if they manage to scrape by, send 'em off to fight for God and Dear Leader if they get old enough to drive.
Is that a real gay couple on the flyer? ~ Thersites 4:21 pm
Would a self-respecting gay man wear that plaid shirt? And the way those trousers bunch! Thos sideburns. Please. This is another Karl Rove forgery.
Mr. Jeffers,
I've read somewhere that most historians figure there were one or two mini-Renaissances during the "Dark Ages", but that since it was Renaissance era historians that set the tone, the concept that it was just one long, bleak period has become to ranch standard.
Texmenbashi,
Yeah, it's an insult to the intelligence of non-idiots, but it's basically gospel to the idiots. That's why they're idiots.
Jennifer,
Ya know, I sometimes wonder about how much your average pro-"lifer" is concerned about controlling women. Now, the Randall Terrys and Jerry Falwells of the movement, yeah, sure, they're all about the barefoot and the pregnant. But your average yay-hoo standing on a street with a "Choose Life" sign? I wonder if they even think of it. For some reason, I don't think it really comes into play for them; they're just doing it for the babies. The logical disconnection doesn't register with them naturally, and when you bring it up to them, they tend to get a bit pissed off.
The insults to Arkansas are easily answered with two simple facts:
Arkansas produced Clinton
Arkansas produced rorschach
That's all you need to say.
I can't let this one go:
My gripe is with the word play around here.
In other words, insisting that the term doctors use for a medical procedure is accurate? And PA isn't?
Partial birth is indeed a matter of opinion
Oh, okay. But...wait a minute...huh?
But some people around here are clearly in denial.
Yws, I'm denying that it's a matter of opinion...when it really is! No, wait...actiually, I'm pretending it's a word game, when it's just a matter of opinion. No, on second thought, I'm playing a word game because I think the Right is playing word games, even though it's a matter of opinion, and we're only talking about "scrutiny" anyway...or something.
That or they are missing the point.
Yeah, the point! The point that it's OK to "scrutinize" women for having third-trimester (huh?) abortions, because it's only word play, except that it isn't, but it is, and should be banned, or maybe not. But we do know there's some denial happening here, and that's bad.
Either way they're clearly playing their own word games with what they say is a word game on the part of the fascists.
Yeah! The fascists and their word games, which aren't word games because "partial birth abortion" is the correct term for the procedure, except that it's a matter of opinion, and we're playing word games by saying that the medical term is the correct one, when it's not, because "partial birth abortion" is correct, only it's a matter of opinion, and we're in denial about it.
Whatever. You're completely warped.
Back a century ago, in the days prior to the perfection of Caesarian sections on living women, the Catholic Church in Boston was wrestling with a big problem.
Seems that immigrant Irish Catholic girls, whose genetic programming already made them small and dainty, were further miniaturized by the near-starvation they endured both in Ireland and often in America. When these girls got pregnant by American men whose genes were set for 'tall and strapping', the babies' heads would often be too big to fit through the narrow space between the mothers' hip bones.
There were two methods of dealing with this situation:
1) Have the doctor knock the infant on the head while it was in the womb, in order to at least spare the mother her life,
OR:
2) Let the mother die after weeks of wrenching agony, and hope that it was possible to do a postmortem Caesarian soon enough after death to save the infant.
Guess which method the Church preferred? (Hint: It was the one that DIDN'T spare the woman.)
Arkansas produced Clinton
Arkansas produced rorschach
Hurray!
goatscape - yeah, there are a lot of bad things about Arkansas.
But pointing fingers at them and laughing about them doesn't do anything to lower the infant mortality rate or the rate of educational attainment. If the federal government had ever put any effort into mitigating the long-term root causes of poverty and ignorance in this state, it would be justified to do just that. But they didn't (we weren't included in LBJ's "War on Poverty" because, you know, Appalachia is about 600 miles away) and so it's not.
Most of the shitholes in this country wouldn't be shitholes if we concentrated on making them better instead of simply using them as the butt of jokes. I don't find any amusement in any place in this country having a high poverty level or bad schools, instead it makes me sad and angry - because we could do so much to turn them around.
Safe, legal, etc.
Nope. Just throwing out a few items to prove it wasn't the benighted period the Renaissance said it was.
Study history. Learn. "Dark Ages" was coined by the people of the Renaissance to prove that "civilization" only existed when the Greeks and then the Romans were in power.
The Greeks who used young boys as sexual playthings (the concern here, btw, is child abuse). Who thought nothing of keeping slaves. Ditto the Romans, who maintained power by sheer brutality (they invented crucifixion, one of the harshest forms of execution known).
The "Dark Ages" were neither "dark" nor "Medieval." Considering how our age has "democratized" warfare to the point of making an essential industry of it, and indiscriminately including civilians as "collateral damage," it seems ironic, at least, to throw such a term around loosely.
Any age can be identified by its best, or its worst, and if the latter, labeled "Dark." Trying to display a bit more knowledge in the face of such ignorance, in such a limited scope, is probably futile
But better to light a candle, than to curse the darkness.
Whoa guys, Robert M Jeffers is a LEARNED MAN! We'd better stop arguing with him and start quaking in his shadow! Look how he quotes "immortal" words, and how he can with a flick of his razor wit "discard" us!!! DAMN! He speaks like a dusty old book and not like a real person with real points, so he MUST be as smart as the dusty old books he's mimicking!
Thou, uh, hast my respecte, Mr Jeffers, as you sir, are, uh, a man marvelled of late for superlative wisdom in the area of, uh, the abortation of zygotic man...
Did I do OK professor Jeffers? Did I mimic dusty old books to your satisfaction? Maybe for your encore you can moralize and patronize us with fakey Jesus talk! "And lo, you little fools, I shall not suffer any longer" or some shit like that! THANKS ROBERT!
(postscript: DA DA DA DOUUUUUCHE. Uh, BAG!)
electionthief, you read the thread, but you didn't learn anything, it seems.
pie
Teach me, pie. 
"Now I call you what you are: a coward. You are the one "ducking the challenge." You are the one refusing to respond to the argument made against you. Your willful obstinance only proves you have no response, save to stick your figurative fingers in your figurative eyes and refuse to look. Bah. In the words of the immortal Molesworth, "I discard you."
Robert M. Jeffers | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 6:45 pm | #
Are you joking here Robert cause aside from the 'bah' remark I really can't tell.
MYOB'
.
Hecate said : "And, I personally do favor abortion for teenagers w/o parental notification. So that after Suzie's stepdad impregnates her, she doesn't have to go get his permission to abort the fetus."
The problem in that example is not the pregnancy, it is abuse and molestation.
Oh, I imagine Suzie finds the pregnancy somewhat problematical.
Safe, Legal, & Free,
Hey, imagine trying to keep your britches up without buttons. Just because you see the wheel everywhere doesn't mean it wasn't a clever goddamned idea at one point.
Hecate
I didn't mean it that way. Okay, lets say there more problems than just the pregnancy. If the step dad issue had been/could be solved, the pregnancy would not be a problem to begin with.
(Oh, I forgot the other biggie: After weeks of having their craniums squished up against their mothers' too-narrow hipbones, the infants often died themselves, or were so brain-damaged that they didn't outlive their mothers very long.)
electionthief, reread the thread.
You're smart, correct? You'll figure it out.
Wow. Some dingaling is attacking Robert M. Jeffers because he's smart and well-read, as if education, intelligence and intellectual curiosity was somehow a bad thing. And you people wonder how come so many yay-hoos in this country support Bush.
My word.
The insults to Arkansas are easily answered with two simple facts:
Arkansas produced Clinton
Arkansas produced rorschach
That's all you need to say.
Also the pseudo Christian/Pseudo goth band Evanescence.
I think that just might cancel out you and Clinton.
Every time I hear the opening to that song "My Immortal" on my car radio, I come close to running myself off the road in pure despair.
Ooooh, quoting "dusty old books." He got ya there, RMJ?
Culture? Yucko. Who wouldn't reach for his revolver?
Everything we need to know we learned at Bush's last press conference.
SWR - I dunno, I think Evanescence may have been the inspiration for the South Park episode about Cartman's cyncical plan to put together a hit Christian Rock group that could then cross over, which may cancel out Evanescence itself.
Backslider, Jeffers isn't well read, he's a good mimic of things he's read. That's pretty much proven by the fact that if he was well read he wouldn't be on this site posting nonsense (aka: his opinion) to people who don't matter. He'd be at work, or doing something that in some way DID matter. Yes, this condemns us all. Haloscan is NOT where smart people w/ meaningful and influential jobs or positions go to spend their time... Jeffers is just another joke of a person who, in lieu of being a big fish mimics the high-and-mighty witty language and speech patterns of bigwigs he's read in the little pond of his choosing. Lame.
Since the western world was founded on the Judeo Christian ethic
Ah yes. The Judeo Christian ethic espoused by the Greeks and Romans. Remember it well.
I love the assaults I get from people who've never read a book, and feel insulted by anyone who has, and has any memory of it.
As Molly Ivins said (ooh! There's that "book knowledge" again! "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"): it's like being gummed by a newt. No real harm done, but it leaves your ankle all slimy.
And no, myob, I wasn't joking. I can only conclude that you are not serious.
can't we all just get along?
Whoa guys, Robert M Jeffers is a LEARNED MAN!
if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
or at least STFU and quit being a horse's ass.
What's that picture of on the right?
A member of the SCLM preparing to "interview" Bush?
To cancel the bane which is Evanescence, I need only mention Johnny Cash.
Wow. This troll is so prescient.
Good thing there's one smart person posting here, capable of seeing through the delusions and illusions of the rest of us.
Wow. Some dingaling is attacking Robert M. Jeffers because he's smart and well-read, as if education, intelligence and intellectual curiosity was somehow a bad thing.
Hey, come on...it's very uncool to live up to even a fraction of one's human potential! It's like ignorance and stagnation aren't good enough for you, or something.
Backslider, Jeffers isn't well read, he's a good mimic of things he's read.
"Two conditions that often appear alike," I suppose.
Your the knowledgeable one, troll. You find the source.
What kind of moron comes on this board and disses Robert M. Jeffers?
You must be stupider than dirt.
"Your". Crap. Letting this troll get to me so that I make idiot typos.
Right. Time to go. Here, it's the children's hour.
This is just as bad as the planned parenthood, NARAL, and southern poverty law center crap that comes to my house, although granted, this is in color.
Maybe I should scan those and put them up...
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
Philalethes
I gave you a chance to prove me wrong. I told you I had no problem being proven wrong. I simply asked that you go find a website or two that has the full physical descriptions of the procedure.
This was all you had to do.
You can say all you want. Most others here can say whatever they want(except the trolls).
The fact remains that the name Partial Birth Abortion has been used by enough people on the pro-chice side to justify it's use. Clinton has used it as have many other democrats.
I won't begrudge you your personal reasons for taking the stand you have on the issue, but the fact is the name is physically correct.
You might not like that because it gives the right ammo on the subject, but you inflamed it all by bitching about doctors and women being treated worse than the fetus in this case. A point that is clearly the ranting of someone who didn't bother to think this through.
You can reject my arguments all you want. I'm not some AsKKKroft wannabe who will censor you on the subject.
But you hurt our case more than help it by playing around on the subject.
I look forward to being on your side on other subjects.
MYOB'
.
P.S Your still insane.
To cancel the bane which is Evanescence, I need only mention Johnny Cash.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 7:05 pm | #
After hearing "Wake me Up Inside" last Summer for the 1099088774809098798th time last Summer, I gave up on music coming out of Arkansas.
Oh wait, I mean 1099088774809098799th time.
The questions of religon and religioucity have been weighing on my mind for some time, as have many other aspects of the present. Sometimes, one cannot write about all of the topics at once, and must, instead, find some other way of approaching them.
For me there are two basic kinds of religious sentiment. The one which is a search for the good, and for the comfort that people need to go about their lives with the difficulties that we all face. The other is a tribal kind of religiousness which can be called the "henocratic" - a tribal god, who attacks the enemies of the tribe, and which the tribe turns to for strength to kill other tribes.
This, and many other issues, have condensed in my mind to a novel, which I've decided to just blog as I write it. The first 6 parts of the novel are here - though in reverse order, because they are being blogged.
The seventh part will be posted tomorrow sometime.
electionthief, reread the thread.
You're smart, correct? You'll figure it out.
pie
Ok, I reread it. What am I missing? People are angry partial birth abortion has been adopted to common usage over a medical term? Because this allows wingers to shift the debate in their favor? Or basically, it's just not a good topic even for those who mostly agree with one another? The partial birth debate unfairly stigmatizes an already traumatized woman? I know I got that right so don't even give me the "you have a lot to learn" line. 
A song about a true incident a number of eyars ago in rural Ireland -- huge stigma against out-of-wedlock pregnancies, of course no abortion available. You know, the direction we're heading in under Bush.
By Christy Moore:
Middle of the island
-----------------------------
everybody knew, nobody said
a week ago last tuesday
she was just fifteen years
when she reached her full term
she went to a grotto
in just a field
in the middle of the island
to deliver herself
her baby died
she died
a week ago last tuesday
it was a sad slow stupid death for them both
everybody knew, nobody said
at a grotto
in a field
in the middle of the island
it was a sad slow stupid death for them both
everybody knew, nobody said
And no, myob, I wasn't joking. I can only conclude that you are not serious.
Robert M. Jeffers | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 7:04 pm | #
Then I suggest you read through all my posts.
I think you'll find that your arguments against me don't hold up.
MYOB'
.
That's pretty much proven by the fact that if he was well read he wouldn't be on this site posting nonsense (aka: his opinion) to people who don't matter.
This is too hysterical.
Then what are you doing here, asshole?
You're jealous because people compliment his posts, but not yours.
You need help.
The fact remains that the name Partial Birth Abortion has been used by enough people on the pro-chice side to justify it's use
That is complete bullshit. It doesn't matter how many times politicians use an inaccurate term to describe a medical procedure.
It is a medical procedure, and medical professionals don't use the term at all.
I think you'll find that your arguments against me don't hold up.
You are in deep denial then.
What kind of moron comes on this board and disses Robert M. Jeffers
This kind of troll, YO! RECKONIZE IT. I am the ULTIMATE BUTTER in this DAIRYLAND of VAGUELY POLITICAL CHEESES! Robert M Jeffers' children's hour = PARHEPS HE EATZ BABYS?
And we respect his opinion on abortion? A confirmed baby-eater?
QED IPSO FACTO... to the EXTRASENSORY EXTREMES!
Oooh...a fish jumps in the barrel! Let me take a shot!
Backslider, Jeffers isn't well read, he's a good mimic of things he's read.
Things he's read, just as you say. Making him well read, yes? If you're conversant enough with, say, Augustine or Duns Scotus to mimic them, I'd say you were well read.
That's pretty much proven by the fact that if he was well read he wouldn't be on this site posting nonsense (aka: his opinion) to people who don't matter.
"Proven," mind you. Proven how? By posting opinions on this site, for the delectation of people who "don't matter." There's a delightful paradox here, lurking just beyond the reaches of this troll's mind.
Recap: It's "proven" that Jeffers is a "mimic" of what he's read, because he's posting opinions here at this moment, instead of doing something else, and anyone who does that is...um...uh...
Clear as mud!
Backslider, Jeffers isn't well read, he's a good mimic of things he's read. That's pretty much proven by the fact that if he was well read he wouldn't be on this site posting nonsense (aka: his opinion) to people who don't matter. He'd be at work, or doing something that in some way DID matter. Yes, this condemns us all. Haloscan is NOT where smart people w/ meaningful and influential jobs or positions go to spend their time... Jeffers is just another joke of a person who, in lieu of being a big fish mimics the high-and-mighty witty language and speech patterns of bigwigs he's read in the little pond of his choosing. Lame.
Robert M Jeffers Is God! | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 7:03 pm | #
That is quite possibly the single dumbest thing I have ever read. So well-read, intelligent, thoughtful people don't waste time or persue meaningless diversions, particularly ones that involve, oh let's call it "debate", which actually requires someone to be a bit bright? That's like saying anyone who watches football is a moron or anybody who plays music is "wasting his life". Jesus, this is like people who don't understand why I read about, say, quantum physics when there's no way I can make money from it.
Now, you might have a point if Brother Jeffers went around writing how much smarter he is than everyone or how ignorant his opponents are, but he simply doesn't do that. He just states his case in a very calm, articulate and forthright manner.
Jesus, what do you do for fun? Or do you think the only people who should be allowed to give opinions are the ones who get paid for it?
Banning the bible?
We're democrats.
We don't ban books.
We read them.
The fact remains that it's a phrase used to describe it. That it's not technically correct means nothing.
My point is and always was that the physical description of the procedure's details match the name.
That was my point.
Instead everyone simply chose to play off the notion that the whole procedure doesn't exist or has never been used because some choose to call it partial birth abortion.
1. It's an abortion
2. The fetus is considered to be partially out of the womb or enough to justify that it is in the 'birth canal'.
That's enough for me to use the name.
But if you want to say that PBA's never happen cause that's not the 'technically correct' name for it then I think it's you people who are in denial.
It does us not good when you try to argue such a ridiculous point and that itself was my point.
MYOB'
.
What am I missing?
Missing? You're missing that it's none of your business, and the procedure, rarely performed, is done to save the life of the mother or when the fetus is no longer viable.
I've had children. Have you?
It's wonderful when it all goes well. But when it goes wrong, your world comes to an end.
I have been asked to read a statement by no one in particular:
The preceding rants against Jeffers were nonsense. I was mildly amused by the haughty and pompous style of Jeffers, so I posted about it on what was (I think) at the time a dead thread (having been replaced with a newer one on the main page) w/ the expectation it would be dismissed and evaporate into Haloscan ether. I didn't expect fully 90% of later posts to reference my nonsense and take it seriously, though nonsense does have a way of doing that I guess. It is funny that it happened though, as I'm sure you can admit. I'm not sure what Jeffers' opinion on abortion is, I wasn't interested in that. Mine is the same as "Safe, Free, and Legal" b/c we're the same person. So. I still disagree that the Dark Ages weren't worse than the Renaissance, and that it's historic historical revisionism to think that. Anyway, sorry for providing such engaging nonsense and disrupting the thread.
Philalethes
I gave you a chance to prove me wrong.
Yes. And I took it and ran with it, as did lots of other folks. And when we were done, there was scarcely enough left of you to bury.
Now, like the Black Knight in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail," you're threatening to bleed on us.
This is just as bad as the planned parenthood, NARAL, and southern poverty law center crap that comes to my house, although granted, this is in color.
So I take you're in favor of the things those groups are against, which is - in order - sexual ignorance, forcing women to carry ever birth to term, and racism? And every thing they send is full of lies and distortions of the facts?
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
Pastabagel | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 7:08 pm | #
Yes. We know. I understand being proud of such a distinguished handle, but there is such a thing as going to far.
MYOB, well then, wave a fucking magic wand and make the dead or deformed fetus disappear.
Come on, oh, powerful one. Make the tragedy disappear. And while you're at it, wipe out all memory of the mother, who, if she carried the baby to that stage, would never have wanted that outcome!
Men are so amusing.
Boy. That "buttons" thing must've stuck in his/her craw, huh.
The insults to Arkansas are easily answered with two simple facts:
Arkansas produced Clinton
Arkansas produced rorschach
It also produced William Fulbright who, all in all, wasn't a bad Senator.
Too bad he supported segregation.
Pie
What the hell are you talking about?
MYOB'
.
I still disagree that the Dark Ages weren't worse than the Renaissance, and that it's historic historical revisionism to think that. Anyway, sorry for providing such engaging nonsense and disrupting the thread.
Robert M Jeffers Is God!
Mr. Jeffers is absolutely right that the "Dark Ages" is a misnomer, and an ignorant one at that. Joking or not, all you did was come across as an asshole who writes badly to make fun of someone who writes well. If that's your idea of "poking fun" at someone, I suggest you take up Russian Roulette. Most people here don't think that expressing oneself well, in good English that suggests a familiarity with books, is a character flaw.
Most people here don't think that expressing oneself well, in good English that suggests a familiarity with books, is a character flaw.
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 09.25.04 - 7:27 pm | #
Yeah, it's not like he makes continuous references to music and mind-altering substances. No one would pay attention to that guy.
Conversations about books, music, and mind-altering substances.
What's not to love?
Pie
What the hell are you talking about?
MYOB'
She's talking about the fact that you're talking about something you don't understand, and being a pompous pseudomoral blowhard about a devastating decision that you'll never, ever have to make.
She's right, too. It's unseemly, to say the least.
Pie, you're always up on these folks well before I am...when did this guy turn into such a colossally dishonest asshole?
What the hell are you talking about?
You ask me that?
Never mind. You've ignored everything people have said that counters your statements.
Have a nice evening.
You're missing that it's none of your business
I thought that went without saying? You can't penalize me for that, pie.
And with all the nonsense about names - why do people say they are having a tooth pulled but the oral surgeon says you are having an extraction? The whole language thing boils down to some people are pissed because the popular term puts some people's politics under an unflattering light. If it works go with it and partial birth abortion seems to capture the procedure just fine to any sane person. It's as if you guys are being speech police.
Then I suggest you read through all my posts.
I think you'll find that your arguments against me don't hold up.
I did.
And no, I didn't.
The whole language thing boils down to some people are pissed because the popular term puts some people's politics under an unflattering light.
Yeah, the "popular term." That's what it is, all right. The far-right invented it, and America clasped it instantly to its snow-white bosom. It trips merrily off the tongue from one end of the country to the other.
partial birth abortion seems to capture the procedure just fine to any sane person.
Tell that to all the doctors and judges who think it's a completely dishonest bit of political grandstanding.
But coming from the people who gave us "homicide bombers" and "the death tax," how much honesty can we expect?
SWR - So did Robert Byrd, and a lot of Democratic politicians who all in all, have not been bad.
It was a fact of political life in the South at that time that if you were going to hold office, you were going to mouth support for segregation.
Integration would have been much more difficult to finally achieve had it not been for such hypocrisies. If, for example, "segregationists" such as Fullbright had openly revolted against federally-mandated integration. The fact that they didn't indicates the depth of their affections for the policy of segregation.
Case in point:
My point is and always was that the physical description of the procedure's details match the name.
That was my point.
As I said, so, too, does "sawing off a limb" describe "amputation." But one describes a medical procedure, the other a method of torture.
Which is why one is used when referring to what doctors do, the other to what barbarians do.
The use of the term "partial birth" abortion is clearly meant to be inflammatory. Nothing more, nothing less. That, alone, makes the term inappropriate for use in a debate on the ethics, or the legalities, of abortion.
Ethics is complex and difficult enough, without producing more heat than light by using emotionally-charged terms.
Yeah, the "popular term." That's what it is, all right. The far-right invented it, and America clasped it instantly to its snow-white bosom. It trips merrily off the tongue from one end of the country to the other.
Tell that to all the doctors and judges who think it's a completely dishonest bit of political grandstanding.
But coming from the people who gave us "homicide bombers" and "the death tax," how much honesty can we expect?
Homeboy, you need to chillllllll out a bit. The left gets its popular terms too, don't they?
Partial Birth Abortion. What an absolutely hideous name and it's no accident that is what they call it. It was a brilliant move. Yes, MYOB, it is a word game
And a vicious and stupid one. I admit: Trolls win this one.
If you try to argue against those specific words, you lose the majority no matter what you say. Why try?
They gave that it that "name" and threw it on the table in an attempt to reopen discussion of an otherwise closed issue. It doesn't mean we have to play the game. I haven't entered a PBA arguement since I figured out what they were really trying to argue. They defined it as inarguable in the act of naming.
If you sort out all the chaff, that was Clinton's position and, politically speaking, it was absolutely the right one.
It's a completely political name for a rare medical procedure that's "proper name" is D&X. The best estimate is that less than 0.02% of all US abortions remotely fall into this category. It is actually considerably less than that if you're really talking late term. This procedure must be allowed when it is required; it is never a desirable option. It is never a choice.
Make sure that any legislation that impacts abortion rights in any way includes an exemption for the life of the mother (even the most hardened right winger will give you that one) and you've automatically included 99% of all "PBA" procedures. It is simply not worth the word fight.
They are trying to back door the issue with the partial birth crow bar. Do not go there with them. That's the turf upon which they want to re-fight the battle we already won. It has nothing to do with reality.
And how and why did this bs about PBAs get into a thread about a classless, stupid campaign stunt that is backfiring on republicans in Arkansas.
Back on topic. Oops. It may not have just been my dad. They seem to have mailed that pamphlet to a number of the wrong people (i.e., quiet elderly democrats who don't like their relationship with God questioned). The best that anyone can figure is the repubs probably used some old church membership directories as a mailing list and that has some righteous folks seriously angry. My guess is that it moved a several hundred fence-sitters to Kerry.
As close as this thing is going to be, that counts.
Arkansas populist politics. Strangely exhilarating that it matters again.
I think it's incredible the amount of agonized compassion that conservatives can bring to bear on abortion. Raping children in prisons is excused, and killing them with cluster bombs in a war is OK, and letting lead and mercury contaminate their food and drinking water is good for business...but terminating a pregnancy--even in the case of hydrocephalus--is beyond the pale.
There's some sort of sexual fear at the base of it...can't quite work it out, though. It's really disturbing, whatever it is.
Unless any of you can provide the details of how the procedure is performed? If it doesn't match the name's description then I'm willing to amend my position.
sure. first you let the child be born. then 18 years later, you send him to a third-world desert shit-hole without body armor and when the people he has invaded blow him up with an improvised explosive device, voila! partial birth abortion. and the thugs are all for it.
Phil,
It's all about controlling women, making it difficult if not impossible for them to control even the most basic aspects of their lives. Period. Clearly they dont care about women's lives or the lives of the children once born. They don't really even care about stopping abortion. They just want to criminalize it so they can control women.
Homeboy, you need to chillllllll out a bit. The left gets its popular terms too, don't they?
electionthief
No, not really. I'm not in favor of that kind of behavior on either side; cynical misuse of language is very dangerous to a democratic system. But I don't think the Left has had many successes with meaningless reifications like "War on Terror," or with cynical Looking-Glass terms like "Patriot Act" or "Healthy Forest Act." And whereas the media will pigpile all over ridiculous PC terms like "differently abled," holding them up as examples of sloppy thinking and ideology run amok, they pretty much leave bizarre GOP neologisms like "homicide bombers" alone.
"Haloscan is NOT where smart people w/ meaningful and influential jobs or positions go to spend their time..."
which would explain your presence perfectly, if it were true.
As far as dissing Arkansas goes, I'm a Kansan, they wrote a whole book about how messed up we are.
Phil,
It's all about controlling women, making it difficult if not impossible for them to control even the most basic aspects of their lives. Period.
Yes, but whence the psychological compulsion to do that? Why do women "need" to be controlled? That's where their fears come in, I think.
Jennifer
I share your irritation when the good folks of this board rank on Arkansas as backwards, etc. I was raised there for 35 years before moving to the middle Atlantic states (NE MD - work in Wilmington DE) 13 years ago (Note that I still live south of the Mason-Dixon - about 1/4 mile south)
Also note that while Arkansas and the rest of the South gets a real bad rap there are plenty, I mean plenty of hicks, white trash, and rednecks up here in DE, MD, NJ that are as backward as any person one will find in any backwater rural area of the South. The difference is that folks in general are a hell of a lot more genteel in the South than up the Northeast.
Anyone that doesn't believe me just check out Philly some time (sorry Atrios) Or NYC, or Trenton, NJ, etc.
There are dipshits whereever one goes.
That's the turf upon which they want to re-fight the battle we already won.
I think that is a large part of the point. Pro-choice has won and won handily. Who cares if pro-lifers get to dub D&X with its "popular" name? This country will become more socially liberal the more time wears on. Just look at the popular culture.
This country will become more socially liberal the more time wears on. Just look at the popular culture.
Yep. Just like Weimar Germany.
Pro-choice has won and won handily.
Yes. Hence the passage of the historic "Partial Birth Abortion Ban." And the de-funding of family planning programs worldwide. And the assault on sex ed and birth control in the USA, where textbooks are allowed to mention nothing but abstinence in some states. What a splendid time to become complacent!
So, who here thinks that our problem is we're not taking enough political advice from anonymous right-wingers on blog threads?
[crickets chirping]
Billy B - thank you, and it's not the characterization of Arkansas as "backwards" that irritates me, because the truth is, the state is behind the curve in most regards.
What irritates me - actually infuriates me - is when they label the people here as stupid. Hey, they're poor, and they're socially conservative, but the vast majority of them are not stupid, they are simply products of poverty, poor education, and a terminally depressed economy, as well as laws and policies that have always been tilted against them to keep them that way.
And in spite of all efforts to keep them ignorant and poor, they have been amazingly politically progressive. People who know nothing don't recognize that, because they have no concept of how high the mountain is that people have had to climb here to even get within spitting distance of any type of fairness in the system. To me that's an argument for their intelligence. To ridicule them for the conditions of their lives (primarily, the fact that most of them were born in Arkansas to poor and poorly-educated parents) while ignoring their good solid common sense is elitism of the highest order. And that's what pisses me off.
What a splendid time to become complacent!
It's just a fucking name, bro!
More Gays = Less Abortions!
Backslider,
What I meant was that those groups, planned parenthood, naral, splc, say equally inane things intheir literature that even pro-choice people don't buy. For example, that republicans want to control women's bodies, etc. No actually they don't want to do that. Pro life republicans just don't want babies getting killed.
Anyway liberals have basically won the abortion argument. I realize it's an ongoing debate, blah blah, but abortions are legal everywhere, at least in the first six months. Liberals have succeeded in saying that in the context of abortion only, the law considers life to start at birth, with some nod to the fetus in those last three months.
However, Bush has turned that legal tactic around (the idea that the law can have differnet definitions of the same thing in different contexts), and said that in the context of govt funded scientific research, life begins very shortly after conception.
I disagree with this policy, but it's interesting politically, because the status quo in the two issues is reversed, however the central issue of both debates is the same: "when does life start?". This means there's room for compromise, which I don't think will ever happen.
And spare me the "woman's right to choose is the real issue speech". I've heard it. Women do have the right to choose, but that right has to be balanced against the rights of others, just like every other right is.
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
Pro-choice has won and won handily.
Yes. Hence the passage of the historic "Partial Birth Abortion Ban." And the de-funding of family planning programs worldwide. And the assault on sex ed and birth control in the USA, where textbooks are allowed to mention nothing but abstinence in some states. What a splendid time to become complacent!
It's just a fucking name, bro!
Oh, how you divert attention from the point.
For example, that republicans want to control women's bodies, etc. No actually they don't want to do that. Pro life republicans just don't want babies getting killed.
Fuck off, asshole.
Oh, how you divert attention from the point.
pie
That's not true, pie, and you know it. Then again this is none of my business anyway, because I am a man. Good advice and some I will now take.
The lip is zipped.
pie do you have a reference - link for the Irish women with large babies?
I would figure that to happen with American GIs and Asian women during the Vietnam era but never heard about it.
The Spirit of Howard Beale, that was Phoenix Woman. I'm sure she has a link.
Be not afraid.
Republicans are not the only ones who know about well-timed revelations.
Perhaps the Democrats have their own....
Fuck off, asshole.
pie |
Relax. Have a coke a smile.
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
For example, that republicans want to control women's bodies, etc. No actually they don't want to do that. Pro life republicans just don't want babies getting killed.
Bullshit. See my earlier post about having a little think.
*a coke and a smile.
Cursed fingers...
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
Whew! Whatta thread. I just came in, so I'm not all inflamed & riled up yet. So I'll take my stab:
1) It is mean & stupid to make stereotypical jokes about Arkansans & other Southerners. Ignore it.
2) "Partial birth" is a really inflammatory term, as is "pro life." Of COURSE I'm "pro life." Just another example of wingers framing the debate, and all of us going right along with it.
3) Whatever the technical term for "partial birth," it is a pretty heinous procedure. I am not a doctor so I don't know when it would be used. My guess is, very rarely. In most cases, an ultrasound or amnio or CVS (not the drugstore ) might be able to pick up things that have gone wrong with a fetus. In the case of late-onset hydrocephalus (sp?), a c-section would probably be an option -- but it's major surgery and may have to be rejected for reasons NOBODY ON THIS BOARD can determine (unless you're an OB-GYN scanning Haloscan while you operate).
3)I don't like abortion. So I'm not going to have one.
4)"Under God" SHOULD be removed from the pledge.
5) If my daughter were undergoing a potentially harmful medical procedure, I'd want to know. What if she has allergies to medication? What if she has a blood disorder? What if she is sensitive to anesthesia? That said, with a victim of incest, all bets are off. I don't have an easy answer to this one, and I admit it.
6) I don't want to ban the Bible. I just want all the books on the ALA "most-banned" list (well, except for "Sex" by Madonna ) put back into the classrooms.
7) And on a slightly OT note, from what I can figure the Judy Blume books must be banned because they briefly, lightly refer to girls masturbating. Interestingly, her book "Then Again, Maybe I Won't," which discusses fairly detailed teen boy masturbation, is NOT on the list.
Also, we are allowed to disagree here without being trolls. I have disagreed with lots of people here, and I am not a troll. I'm also smart, have a good job, and LIKE spending my time this way! (So there!)
Cursed fingers...
I'm in love.
7) And on a slightly OT note, from what I can figure the Judy Blume books must be banned because they briefly, lightly refer to girls masturbating. Interestingly, her book "Then Again, Maybe I Won't," which discusses fairly detailed teen boy masturbation, is NOT on the list.
Damn. And to think I wasted my youth on Jack London and Lord of the Rings.
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
"It's absolutely fucking sick, is what it is.
Philalethes"
Yes. It is. I'm terribly sorry that the matter has come to the attention of the important people of society - those who are responsible for how women are permitted to live their lives. If God were just, then surely the vital matter of creating life would not have been entrusted to so weak a vessel.
Philalethes
Phil -
If anything I said about not arguing against PBA is being perceived as complacency, I am deeply sorry. That is not at all what was intended.
I stand by what I said but I never said anything about being complacent. Hell no.
We won. The only way that we can lose now is to give up our guard to chase phantoms. That is what they want us to do. PBA is a manufactured phantom of an issue designed to pull us off guard. It is talking point number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 for anti-choice people. It is all they have. It is their entire arsenal. Take it away from them.
I have paid my dues on this issue for 35 years. I will gladly keep paying. I absolutely believe that vigilance is required. I will never surrender on abortion rights.
It is just one word game that I refuse to play with these morons who got really lucky politically the first time somebody called an emergency D&X a "partial birth abortion".
Kay
Wow! that pasta guys schtuff is so hack it's funny! I think he used to write jokes for Krusty.
You didn't win anything in the abortion debate. You won a court case. Every day more and more science comes out that says that the fetus is a living thing much more than it is a mass of cells, and you lefties can't ignore that any more than the right can ignore global warming. I'm not saying we should ban abortion, but I'm saying that don't be bitching about me driving a 340hp car or carping about global warming and altering the ecosystems when you support a practice that, by ending nearly 100 million human lives before they were even born, has an incalculable impact.
And if my teenage daughter got pregnant, I'd sure as hell want to know about it, because last time I checked, sex before 16 was statutory rape and her boyfriend is going to jail.
Why is the RNC desperately trying to undermine support for "one of our only true allies" in the "war on terra"? This appears to me as a direct attack on the respectability of the Liberals and PM Howard of Australia. Somebody alert Charles Krauthammer!
Jennifer--
Gotta come back in here and hope you come back to see this. Damned fine writing about Arkansas. Feel the same way about East Texas, where I grew up. People can actually be damned decent there, if you let 'em. And populism has a long tradition in Texas (you wouldn't know it today!).
Good stuff you put down. Good metaphors, good analysis, good words.
Thank you.
Wow! that pasta guys schtuff is so hack it's funny! I think he used to write jokes for Krusty.
Furthermore, if women are entitled to make the choice that their unborn child is less important than they are, and, I agree that it is, then why should I as a man not have the right to decide someone else's life is less important than mine? Isn't it a fundamental inequality that women should be allowed to terminate their children but men cannot terminate their enemies?
Again, I'm not saying that abortion should be banned, but I'm just saying that every other progressive argument about equality and extending the enfranchise of life and protecting the world is a crock of shit as long as you support choice.
Pro-choice means you're killers already? Why not come out and support Dick Cheney and the War! What difference does it make if it is RU-486 or an American cluster munition?
And if my teenage daughter got pregnant, I'd sure as hell want to know about it, because last time I checked, sex before 16 was statutory rape and her boyfriend is going to jail.
Bwahahahahahahahaha.
You're one clueless asshole.
you support a practice that, by ending nearly 100 million human lives before they were even born, has an incalculable impact.
It certainly has. It has helped, at least a little, to keep this overpopulated planet from being even more overpopulated. Now, go fuck yourself.
Sorry, Phil, I somehow dropped your quote from the start of my post.
You said:
Philalethes
Actually, the more times I read over what you said, the more sense it makes. Maybe I am wrong on this.
I just hate banging my head against a brick wall when it is not absolutely required.
I'll stand at guard. You go after the raiders.
Whatever. I'm guessing that we agree that Bush cannot be left in office to appoint to the SC. Despite the 65% (or more) we hold in all polls, Roe v. Wade hangs by a single thread. That is the real discussion.
Pro-choice means you're killers already? Why not come out and support Dick Cheney and the War! What difference does it make if it is RU-486 or an American cluster munition?
You don't have any experience in these matters and have no idea what you're talking about.
You are embarrassing yourself.
Please leave.
Please.
For example, that republicans want to control women's bodies, etc. No actually they don't want to do that. Pro life republicans just don't want babies getting killed.
If this were true the Republicans wouldn't be standing in the way of real sex education and birth control or anything else that limits that number of abortions people have.
And they'd be all for the "morning after pill".
But they're against birth control. They're against real sex education and they're against the morning after pill.
Fuck off, asshole.
pie |
Relax. Have a coke a smile.
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
Aside from the surrealism of pie quoting my Guvernator, I should mention that:
Coke is the Drink of the Death Squads - David Rovics
play lo-fi - play hi-fi - Listen to MP3 - Read Lyrics/Story
This thread is lame. The whole abortion debate is just a diversion from the fact a law should be passed limiting 1 child per couple. Marry someone with a kid? You don't get one! The overpopulation is destroying this world and we stand by and do nothing! Fuck the abortion crap, let's get enforced restrictions on procreation.
Janet Mastney, I'm hoping you don't have any.
Isn't it a fundamental inequality that women should be allowed to terminate their children but men cannot terminate their enemies?
You have enemies growing inside your own body?
Hey Hecate, since the best you have is a malthusian argument that there are too many people, does that mean you would be in favor of the USA nuking the entire middle east? How much of a population cut is that?
Hey, I'm just a warmongering Republican, pointing out that your side's entire vision of peace love and understanding is hilariously inconsistent with abortion. I'm not against it, nope, not against it all, all things have to be weighed - just like some species get extinct by man, so too some fetuses get extincted. Tough breaks, but priorities are priorities.
But I'm certainly not going to hear about how the Bush administration is morally bankrupt for quashing efforts to save a bird at the expense of economic growth, when you're so willing to support the quashing of fetuses, to support women's economic growth.
Time for you lefties to grow up and realize that our Republican decisions about the environment and your decisions about your fetuses are not so very different.
no credit given
Did someone even type this idiocy? I'd curse but it would be such a long ugly expletive string that it would probably get bounced even here.
This is way beneath your average troll. Is Karl around tonight? That would explain it.
Janet Mastney, I'm hoping you don't have any.
pie
Why would I be that selfish? The new generation of progressives is going to change things. No more compromise bullshit. You old folks need to get the home and pass along already, you have destroyed the planet and given corporations everything. Abortion is a diversion, we need to go further and faster! NO MOREE THAN 1 CHILD PER COUPLE. PERIOD!
Wow. Stork is flailing more wildly than even the most desperate trolls that I've been seeing lately...
If every democrat sent a bible to someone in Arkansas, this debate would be OVAH!
I'm gonna get one at the Salvation Army and do just that.
Hecate,
The definition of "body" and "life" are negotiable terms. Life is one of those things whose attempts to define it means something dies.
I could claim: My body is everything I see. Were I a king of old, I could claim kingship with the land and by legal extension you were my property for you were part of my land. Now today enforcement is a difficult matter, but it is an enforcement problem, and not a "factual" one. but clearly human history has this definition of self and body changing over time, and, while the present trend is to reduce it, we could certainly extend it further and without end.
But they left out all the good parts! Impregnating their daughters! Dressing up their sons in frocks and bonnets!! Eating their aborted fetuses at our annual Liberals' Agenda Celebration!!! Confiscating their Bibles so we can wipe our asses with the pages every Christmas while chanting "SATAN IS KING"!!!!
Jeez, no wonder they hate liberals. They just don't know enough about us.
I think abortion is great, it means that liberal women don't have as many kids, while we right wingers do. You know what the future of this world is? It's a world carved up between radical islam and radical christianity, because they are the only ones having lots of kids. There will be no progressive movement in the future and everything you build will be swept away by choice.
no credit given
Sorry, what I posted above makes absolutely no sense without this quote as the starting point.
He's a moron but I can't figure out how to post correctly here. My bad; his lunacy.
I'm obviously screwing something up when I try to copy quotes for responses here. It's the second time it has happened to me. I'll figure it out. Hints welcome.
Of course, I'm completely undone in my efforts to indoctrinate the children in conservatism, as my better half is a staunch "our body ourselves liberal"!!! She's already sneaking and reading the unborn baby Marx and stuff.
You know, I rarely, if ever, say this, but stork is too stupid and delusional to argue with.
But he's a great argument for retroactive abortion.
As is his female half.
What a buncha nuts.
And if my teenage daughter got pregnant, I'd sure as hell want to know about it, because last time I checked, sex before 16 was statutory rape and her boyfriend is going to jail.
So 16-year-old girls are too young to decide if they want to have consensual sex with their boyfriends, but 16-year-old boys don't need to be protected from statutory rape? Another sexual double standard!
Mostly, I want all teens to be able to get safe, effective birth control as anonymously as they need to.
Relax. Have a coke a smile.
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
I thought it was "have some coke and smirk."
As for Arkansas... you know which party will push for educating and providing health care for the underemployed and undereducated of the state.
Arkansas is also the home of some mega-retailer, who is renowned for underemploying those undereducated folks and extorting huge profits and "gubmint welfare" from the governments of small-town America through re-zoning and avoidances for their proper tax responsibility.
Do we have to activate the National Guard in Arkansas again to secure it against the radical right's attempts to keep these people underemployed and undereducated?
Hecate, typical liberal. Can't refute a single point, no one actually can because it's just the simple truth. Was Dylan singing about liberals:
"Push fake morals,
insult and stare
money doesn't talk it swears
propaganda all is phoney."
You guys are fighting for an ideology and you don't even know why. Liberalism is but an adoloscent act of rage against the universe, when challenged, all it has is insult and violence. There's no difference between you Hecate, and the Khmer Rouge, besides one of extreme.
Stork is actually sort of funny, for a troll.
And Janet, whyn't ya just move to China? Your seeming top priority is already in full swing there!
I knew it! Hecate is Pol Pot! I've always said so. It all makes perfect sense.
I think abortion is great, it means that liberal women don't have as many kids, while we right wingers do. You know what the future of this world is? It's a world carved up between radical islam and radical christianity, because they are the only ones having lots of kids. There will be no progressive movement in the future and everything you build will be swept away by choice.
stork
And then stork will be kind of the Broomstick People! Yes, people may call him crazy, but he knows that robots are stealing his luggage!
_
"Eugene Volokh, the last reasonable voice of the right"
Yeah, sure! Talk about un-warrented benefit of the doubt and liberal definiton of "resonable". No doubt Volokh is bright as all get out, but he's still a hatchet man when it counts. Just because the fangs have been capped, he takes medication to control the drool and has a better make-up artist doesn't change the fact that he's an reactionary asshole at heart.
d
Let's see....Thanks to a big margin in the polls, Bushco just pulled its ad money out of Arkansas. In other words, it has surrendered its campaign to a party machine that consists of little more than the linked resources of local, fundamentalist white churches, churches that know how to do one thing only, which is to scare their parishioners into the voting booth with fliers like this one. By pulling its money out of the state, Bushco lives and dies on the strength of this ad.
Most women are stupid about sex and will give it up for just about any lie and so I tend to hold men way more responsible for it than women, especially since we do live in an age of men.
It's like, I've seen the nicest of women fall for the stupidest of things by the most selfish and shittiest of men, like what's so frigging hard about being a father. Few woman really want to have abortions, when they first find out they are pregnant. I've not met one that cheered at the prospect. But all of them have one thing in common, a man that talked them into it, for his own convenience, and I just think that's bullshit.
So, if this baby turns out to be a daughter, I expect that some guy will sucker her in some way, and then I'll have to shoot him with my newly legalized assault rifle.
Sinfonian is blogging hourly from Melbourne, Florida, with Hurricane Jeanne approaching them. He still had electricity at 9p.m. EDT.
Remember how we all hit his site for his transcription of the religious wingnut on C-Span, a couple days ago? Enjoyed that, didn't we?
Now Sinfonian could likely use some encouraging words from us. He and family are in their home, with the wind sounding like "kettle drums outside." Or maybe tympani.
Does Hecate's Godess have any power over hurrican winds?
stork is a trip lecturing democrats on the act of liberalism ... nice take for a rethug troll.
the problem is: the administration has gone so far to the right, that they are now left of the democrats in terms of the political spectrum.
blinding deficits
nation building in iraq
big business privatization that costs more than a federal program ever did
huge increases in pork spending
failure to recognize the spread of asian economic nationalism via non-enforcement of trade policy
the list goes on and on -- the rethugs are not as advertised; at least kerry is moving more to the middle, which will spell well for november
I'm sorry, my last comment had a typo and should've give stork his full due as KING of the Broomstick People.
I didn't mean to imply that he was a Broomstickian himself, or that he was capable of kindness.
-
Yeah, sure! Talk about un-warrented benefit of the doubt and liberal definiton of "resonable". No doubt Volokh is bright as all get out, but he's still a hatchet man when it counts. Just because the fangs have been capped, he takes medication to control the drool and has a better make-up artist doesn't change the fact that he's an reactionary asshole at heart.
DAVID, YOU ARE AN ASSHAT, GO FUCK YOURSELF!
Actually the one child policy is being reversed in China.
So Janet... been there, done that. Don't work. Nexxxxt.
as for Stork... he's a hoot. At least he makes it clear that the radical right kills for money. That nothing, and he means innocent Iraqi civilians or the undereducated underemployed of West Virginia and Arkansas, will get in the way of the radical right making some bucks.
syntallic you have me rolling on the floor laughing out loud. It's true about the deficits and big gov't, we have gone in circles. I think one liberal blogger at least took some solace in the bush budget by saying, see, now republicans agree with us on something.
In any case I'm just trolling because one on hand a friend of mine had an abortion largely because her bf talked her into it and on the other hand my wife is pregant and I saw that thing on ultrasound with its little heart beating and it was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.
When I come out against abortion is not against the women, it's against the men that get them pregnant and then talk them into abortion. I just think its so wrong to take any other tack than to be supportive but most guys demand a trip to the clinic.
"as for Stork... he's a hoot. At least he makes it clear that the radical right kills for money"
Dude, everyone kills for money. That's my point. Money is universal, so is killing, and so we're all dirty on that score. It's just a question of who or where or how much.
rorshach,
Damn! Outed! Now I'll have to change my name to something else. And I thought that no one would ever guess that the Greek goddess of the crossroads was really Pol Pot! Curses; foiled again!
Who is 'them'?
No, stork, everyone does not kill for money. Money may be universal. Killing may be universal. But the fact that you make this HUGE illogical leap of trolldom by mixing both of them and throwing in all of humanity is truly disrespectful. This is of course the same sort of illogic that produces RNC ads like the one that is the source of this thread.
Furthermore you argue that big government should take the decision making about fetuses our of the hands of individuals because of your personal feelings that the decisions made by some other couple were wrong? At least we can see who is desperately trying to push his morals on to others through "big gubmint".
It is a shame, Hecate, but anyone who couldn't tell that you are actually a genocidal dictator is clearly a stupid liberal sucker.
I have to agree that stork's ranting are fascinating, like watching a train wreck. The cognitive problems evidenced in each post are really striking.
In fifth grade the young girl I sat next to was raped by her father and gave birth. Two years later she had another baby. This while I was worried about whether or not I would be picked for punch ball (the young lady in question always picked me. It was not till years later I learned who had impregnated her. From whom should she have gotten permission to abort from. The rapist, or his enabler, her mother. True story.
Do I believe in abortion for teens without parental permission. You bet! I even believe in it for pre-teens.
syntallic you have me rolling on the floor laughing out loud. It's true about the deficits and big gov't, we have gone in circles. I think one liberal blogger at least took some solace in the bush budget by saying, see, now republicans agree with us on something.
glad you're laughing, because even the smarter version of the rethugs now say they agreed with clinton -- who, of course, made this a priority. i am not a liberal, i am a conservative leaning democrat because of this very issue -- even more than the war in iraq. so make no mistake when i say this: the neocons are out-liberaling the liberals and it's tearing apart the rethugs underneath the covers - the rethugs are going to get themselves taken to the woodshed by their own party after this next election, trust me
and privatization is a joke - because it exposes the people to repeated efforts to bail out entire industries when fraud and greed become acceptable practices, or at least until the lawyers can find the loophole and syphon out the cash
get a freaking clue -- you trolls are being so duped it's pathetic. the basis of your argument was made in the early 1980s and is based on suggestion rather than fact
the preznut's neocon agenda is corrupting the country and it's own party - never once has the senator been charged with such criminally morose activity
your vote is misplaced if you think you're fighting Bush in this ad.
Recently the Republican National Committee sent letters to voters in Arkansas and West Virginia absurdly claiming that liberals would ban the Bible. This is both ridiculous and offensive. It also shows a lack of respect for the intelligence of the voters. Certainly the RNC's time would be better spent speaking positively about their own candidate and their agenda for the future.
I would ask voters to remember the Workplace Religious Freedom Act ("WRFA") currently being considered by Congress. Sen. John Kerry is one of the two lead sponsors of this legislation in the Senate. The WRFA protects the rights of religious individuals in the workplace and has been widely endorsed by religious organizations. The Equal Employment Opportunity Act of 1972 (the “EEOA”) prohibited employers from discriminating against their employees on the basis of religion. However, the protections in the EEOA were eroded over time by various court decisions. The WRFA restores these protections by redefining and increasing employers' obligations to reasonably accommodate their employees' religious beliefs at work.
Many voters also may not know that for two years Senator John Edwards was a co-chairman of the Senate Prayer Breakfast, a bipartisan, multi-denominational group of senators that meets every week to pray and reflect together.
I am sure that all voters would rather be informed of the facts than barraged by crude political fear-mongering.
I'm not arguing that big government should make the decision about choice. I actually think that abortion is a symptom of a broader social problem whose cure is not legal but a change of human attitudes.
Everyone does kill for money. You, or I or everyone else participate in a human society by acceding to killing for some reason. I say this, so desparately, because, I'm firmly convinced that pontification about either Jesus Christ or Margaret Sanger is not what this country needs. Like both sides are coming at each other with dogmatic arguments. Your side on the left says its dogma is better because of XYZ reasons, and my side on the right comes back with the same.
We're at a point where our old paradigms no longer apply, but everyone both left and right keeps trying to fit society's square pegs into their round holes. What I'm looking for is practical governance, not ideological governance, and if it means I have to knock a few people off of their ideological high horses to do it, then so be it.
GINGRICH IS ONLY REASON WE EVER HAD A BALANCED BUDGET, FLEETING AS IT WAS, AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT.
I THINK RUBIN MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THIS ... GINGRICH WAS THE MAYOR ON THE SITCOM "CARTER COUNTRY" --- HANDLE IT!
In any case I'm just trolling because one on hand a friend of mine had an abortion largely because her bf talked her into it...
BULLSHIT. You've trolled before on other typical RNC talking points. Don't pretend this is some special hot button issue for you.
I saw that thing on ultrasound with its little heart beating...
Glad it worked out for you. It doesn't for everyone. This is just the shame / guilt tactic employed by the anti-choicers' "tiny limbs" signs placed into a slightly less offensive dress.
When I come out against abortion is not against the women, it's against the men that get them pregnant and then talk them into abortion. I just think its so wrong to take any other tack than to be supportive but most guys demand a trip to the clinic.
Here's an idea. How about acknowledging that women aren't all little trembling lillies waiting for big studly men like you to provide all the guidance they need? Man, do I feel sorry for your wife. OTOH, I have a sneaking suspicion that she came to you in a box straight from the "Adult Novelties" store.
Fuck you Fielding Mellish, fuck you. because it is actually very true.
Fuck you ten thousand times over and with ten thousand cancers for your entire genetic line for ten thousand years, fuck you.
Don't tell me what is true or isn't true. It's all true, goddamned it. Fuck you.
That's just bullshit that you could even say that. Fuck you. You have no right to say that, and honestly, you have no right to even live.
Goddamned Fielding Mellish, it's all fucking true. If somebody shot you, I would fucking cheer. It's all fucking true. It's all true. It's all true.
You know, on the one hand, stork just saw his infant child's sonogram. On the other hand, he's not sure whether or not this child is a girl.
Could we have smarter trolls and less lying, please?
Before tonight, I never even knew that storks could puke, but there's plenty of evidence that they can on this thread.
Hecate--Plus, isn't it odd that he referred to the incredibly touching sonogram image by calling his unborn child "that thing"?
Rather cold terminology for one who's had a profound emotional experience.
Call my wife a frigging adault novelty toy fielding mellish, call my child a guilt tactic, fuck you. I was trying to be sincere and you just fucking had to be some smug little prick.
shtork
quintessential leftie...every finger you lift is energy...
Uh, stupid Hecate, sonogram was at 6 weeks. Don't know the sex until sonogram at 20 weeks. Stupid dipshit. I thought you lefties were smart?
Before tonight, I never even knew that storks could puke, but there's plenty of evidence that they can on this thread.
rorschach
I think that's how they feed their young. After all, dork did say something about trying to implant conservative values at an early age.
BTW, anybody know how to get rid of house centipedes? I've got em bad - if they regurgitated Unka KKKarl's talking points they'd be as unbearable as trolls.
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Sonogram Pictures
I am telling the truth.
There is no sonogram. No wife. No friend who just had an abortion. Just his mother's basement and a bag of cheetos.
Come on Rove, this is an important, influential blog. We deserve your first string trolls, not this dipshit who's worried about his little weanie.
it's too bad your breeder didn't bite the bullet like michael corleone's wife and abort it out of the pure horror of what she was creating ...
Sonogram Pictures
I am telling the truth.
stork
Yo, c'mon bro. Enough is enough.
Sonogram, wife, friend who had an abortion, three dogs, two cars, a house of my own, and no Karl Rove. Besides, the blog is not that important.
I am against legal requirements for parental notification of abortion, because of the handful of extreme cases we all know about.
Look: Any doctor is going to get parents involved in the decisions faced by a teenager with an unplanned pregnancy, whether or not it's required by law. It's just good practice.
However, in a handful of cases, that's just not a good idea. As Howard Dean said, "Sometimes, when a girl says, 'My parents will kill me,' she's speaking literally."
Stork, your comments about women are moronic. Women do not "give up" sex. In a normal relationship, sex is not a commodity. Women are smart enough to decide for themselves if they want to partcipate (rape notwithstanding, of course).
Under ideal circumstances, sex is a mutually agreed-upon, awesome way to spend some sweet time together. What do you think this is, the era of the chastity belt? Yeesh! I'm spluttering my Diet Coke all over the place here!
Women have sex: For fun. For enhancement of a relationship. To see what it would feel like to have sex with (insert person's name). To satisfy human sexual urges. To work through grief. To kill a few hours. For lots of unnamed reasons besides being too simperingly stupid to be "lied" into having sex. And we also make our own decisions about our pregnancies, by and large.
Unless we're married to you, I guess.
And I thought of those examples all by myself! Wow! And I'm a...I'm a WOMAN! And I've never been talked into having sex! And I've never regretted having sex with anyone I've shared it with! And some of them were liars, and some were truth-tellers! And I had access to effective birth control, and more than one option AVAILABLE (not mandatory) if my birth control failed!
On a side note to Hecate: I had ultrasounds AND amnio w/both pregnancies, and didn't know what I was having. The prospect of the surprise was the only thing that got me through the pushing
My wife makes all of her decisions about the pregancy. To have it, not to not to have it. It's all up to her really, I jus