I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
First?
Exclusive interview with NY Times Executive Editor Bill Keller
This morning I had the opportunity to have a conversation with Bill Keller, the Executive Editor of the New York Times. Mr. Keller, who was named executive editor of The New York Times in July 2003, was in Claremont, California for a function at Pomona College. To begin, I wanted to give Mr. Keller the opportunity to respond to some of the criticism his paper has felt from the blogosphere as of late.
The whole text of the interview is here
I'm first finally?
I've got it!
You know how in junior high the kids love having the retarded kid around to laugh at but still like him because they know he can't help it? Well that's what we got.
The reason the GOP loves the Chimp is because they all feel smarter standing next to him - and by George, he's the President.
I posted a few days ago that David Brooks, the Belle of the Brothel, started this spin on NPR.
I guess now scowling and smirking is (using Bush's matching of matching subject and verbs) also a sign of happiness. :< = :>
Sad.
CNN Business international are currently showing a pie chart that attributes Bush with 71% of the popular vote for winning the debate. Right after showing their own web poll where that was the figure for Kerry.
Holy shit Atrios-you read my mind. I was going to send this to you. Someone should send this to Krugman. Also, why did Karen Hughs ges to spin last night and McCurry was inaudable?
it's really hard work..
let me finish...
really really hard..
that's what i learned from the debate.
god bless
Hard to believe they might be able to contradict themselves in the space of a couple of hours and get away with it.
Not like the Loser President has been doing it for 4+ years.
Oh, wait...
Weasels.
"Let me finish."
Spineless weasels.
The war in Iraq has been a huge advance in fighting terrorism. I believe that on 9/12 the president and his advisors set out to repair some of the problems highlighted in the 9/11 commission report. They only were ahead of congress by about 2.5 years.
Iraq was more than a target because of WMDs, it was also a target of opportunity that allowed us to
1. establish a base of intel operations right in the heart of the middle east. if you dont think this was critical then you disagree with the 9/11 commission report. i dont think we could reasonably depend on the intel agencies in Saudi, Jordan, etc to provide reliable info to us.
2. establish a base of military operations in an area near our potential enemies. if we did not do this we would risk being caught in a situation where we needed our military to be in place in the middle east and not have them. remember that the deployment time was around 4 months or more to stage military there. this has proven to be an excellent strategic move with Saudi stability being questioned and Iran producing nukes. I suppose the UN would have been able to negotiate the terrorists out of power once they took over Saudi Arabia and 20% of the worlds oil.
3. WMDs - I would never want a president who decided to ignore intel and risk WMDs being circulated to terrorists. if you do i question your sanity and judgement.
Perhaps if Kerry has attended a few more intelligence committee meetings he would have a clue.
-------------------------
read this link published today. especially the part where al-Qaida discussed being devoured.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6148985/
the multi-pronged strategy that the predident employed has them on the ropes!
I dont care if Kerry speaks better than Bush. You dont debate with terrorists.
Yeah, those polls. They're so irrelevant. So 2000, you know? In fact, they're so irrelevant that the president may not be able to show up for the rest of them. He's got brush to clear, and all. Presidenting is such hard work.
Torture Wolf: GO
But you know what? There's now one less cliche for the media to attach to John Kerry profiles. "John Kerry, whose strength on foreign policy is a question mark for many voters" is now officially dead. From now on, it will be "John Kerry, who proved himself at least the equal of George Bush on foreign policy."
Let Carl Cameron (Fox News) know that his little joke wasn't funny.
carl.cameron@foxnews.com
nice try, mike, but no cigar.
Well, we already HAD bases in the region, troll.
Osama said close them down and Bush said OK.
Any questions?
mike,
You've got the diplomatic sagacity of a mollusk.
whores
"I dont care if Kerry speaks better than Bush. You dont debate with terrorists."
-Mike
Mike, You might want to read what you just wrote. It sounds like you are saying Bush is a terrorist.
What happens when one of these tough guys has a son or a daughter kidnapped in Iraq? Will they negotiate then? What if the terrorists have planted a nuclear bomb in New York and the only way to save the city is to negotiate with them? What then?
What do they think war is but the harshest possible form of negotiation?
I guess the Washington Post's ombudsman has had enough:
10/1/2004 4:22:50 PM
Memo from Washington Post executive editor Leonard Downie Jr.
MICHAEL GETLER will formally end his tenure as Ombudsman of The Washington Post at the end of December, after a diligent, insightful and forthright tour of duty punctuating a distinguished career of nearly 35 years with The Washington Post Company.
He began as a Pentagon correspondent in 1970, the same year The Post
established the ombudsman position. He subsequently served as a national and foreign correspondent, Assistant Managing Editor for Foreign News, Deputy Managing Editor and as editor of the International Herald Tribune when The Washington Post and the New York Times jointly owned it. Four years ago, he succeeded E. R. Shipp as ombudsman. He was the 12th person to hold the position—and distinctly one of the best.
Mike has both effectively confronted us with our readers’ views of our
performance and explained to readers how the newspaper works, what our standards are and whether we are adhering to them. He has held our feet to the fire and made challenging suggestions for improvements in the paper. His persistence has often overcome a large newsroom’s inertia. His integrity and independence have enhanced the credibility of the newspaper and the ombudsman’s role.
The search for Mike’s successor will be broad and deliberate. The job is
wide open.
The ombudsman is first and foremost the internal critic for and of The
Post. Every week, Mike receives more than 1,000 communications from readers and staff members via telephone, e-mail, snail mail and word of mouth regarding the news and editorial content of The Post. In addition to responding to scores of them, he writes the weekly column for the Sunday Editorial Page, and regular—in his case, weekly—internal memos for the staff.
The Post ombudsman is independent—chosen by a small group of top editors, but not answering to any of them. The term of service generally has been a two-year contract that can be renewed. In order to underscore the independence of this person, the ombudsman agrees to sever his or her relationship with the newspaper when the tour of duty ends.
We realize that selecting the best ombudsman possible may require time. Mike’s contract formally expires Dec. 31, but because we all want to have this position vacant for the shortest time possible, he has agreed to stay on for a while after that if necessary and if possible. We welcome all qualified applicants, so please do not hesitate to spread the word.
Interested parties should contact Milton Coleman (202: 334-6224) no later than November 15.
Best Quote on live TV last night was from our side was from Aaron Mcgruder, cartoonist of "THE BOONDOCKS". He was interviewed by Aaron Brown on CNN and Mcgruder flat out called a spade a spade saying basically, why don't people just admit that Bush is stupid.
MCGRUDER:"You know, what bothers me about shows like this, and all the news shows, after Bush talks I hear all these smart people completely ignoring the elephant in the room. And the elephant in the room, which nobody wants to say, is that Bush is not a smart man. He can't articulate well. He doesn't speak in complete sentences."
more on this here
I dont care if Kerry speaks better than Bush. You dont debate with terrorists.mike
You've been drinking way too much frogjuice, fella.
I dont care if Kerry speaks better than Bush.
Oh, you care. Or you wouldn't be here trolling. Go home, honey, mommy's warming up some nice milk for you. Drinky all uppy and go beddy bie.
I said it on Kos, and I'll say it here: SOMEONE had to approve that. Unless reporters are allowed to update a major news service's web site themselves, there is no way in hell Cameron's story did not go by at least one other person, and most likely several.
Don't let 'em scapegoat this one.
Big John hit a home run last night. I am sure the pundits will turn this into a win for Bushboy, but the people who's minds were changed, are the only people who matter. Let's just hope the polls prove this is a few days. My Gosh, Bush made a fool of himself! What was going on there?
yo, mike -
It didn't have to be "enemy territory." The enemy in this struggle is the global Wahhabi/Jihadi movement, not every Arab who doesn't like us. They hated Saddam as much as we did. By occupying Iraq we have made it more likely they will end up running Saudi Arabia. If you really think we will be able to have a permanent military and intelligency presence in Iraq, you're out of your mind. We will pull out of Iraq no matter who wins the election. We will do this because it cannot be transformed into a "democratic ally." If there is democracy, they will vote for a government that will demand that we leave. If we force a new autocratic government on them - well, we will continue to face guerilla resistance for the forseeable future. The war is already lost because its stated aims are impossible to achieve. We need new war aims that are acheivable and at a reasonable cost - some sort of federalism which guards Kurdish interests (wouldn't be sporting to sell them out again). Because of the President's strained relationship with reality, changing course will require changing leadership.
Folks check this story out.
Looks like a Karl Rove move out of his asshole playbook.
Or it's just a random robbery to take computers that occurs quite a bit in Bellevue WA. Of course the hack reporter did not mention that.
Bush's state headquarters for re-election burglarized
http://
seattletimes.nwsource.com..._webbush01.html
From the article:
"To me there is some scary stuff going on from liberal radicals whose Bush hatred is out of control," Vance said.
David Postman: 360-943-9882 or dpostman@seattletimes.com
I;m calling the reporter to askk the follow up questions the lame asss did not ask.
OT but ON-T:
Monday, Oct 4, is the 2nd anniversary of the North Koreans telling State Dept. reps that they were processing uranium for nukes.
On Oct 11, 2002 the US Senate voted to authorize the President to use force in Iraq.
On Oct 15, the news of the meeting with the North Koreans was let out.
So, the Administration held back critical info about a member of the "Axis of Evil" so the Dem suckers (including Kerry) would vote for the resolution.
This is a "Get Out of Jail Free" card that Kerry has never used and a clear example of how BushCo has manipulated national security for its own aims.
Trying to rattle some cages here.
You are all so very smart.
Guys, Don't forget SNL is doing their first show Saturday night.
My guess is that they will open with a skit from the debates. Can't wait.
I'm still voting for Bush because he was selected by God!
You've got the diplomatic sagacity of a mollusk.
i never know what to say to trolls but that was pretty good bo.
so, the new reason is we are gathering intelligence in the middle east? i don't think so.
" i dont think we could reasonably depend on the intel agencies in Saudi, Jordan, etc to provide reliable info to us."
Mike, Mike, Mike... the events of the last three years or so have demonstrated repeatedly that we have been getting reliable info without a base in Iraq. The Bushies have repeatedly ignored that info - on 9/11, on WMD, on the likely outcome of our invasion -- and American lives have been lost as a direct result.
Maybe you consider that progress. I find it appalling and shameful.
liberal radicals whose Bush hatred is out of control,
This, from the people who accused Hillary of murdering Vince Foster and who impeached Bill over a bj.
We've got a long way to go before Bush hatred can even hope to equal Clinton hatred. Maybe they should have thought about that before unleashing their hatred.
THe country is going crazy because Kerry won the debate.
What happens when he wins the election?
WaPo losing their top guy?This could spell trouble for the press in general and the country as a whole.I dont like this one bit.But then again,I am uncertain to his leanings.
What was that about the Computer security cheif resigning today,abruptly?
Mt Saint Helens erupting.
Worlds colliding??
OT- advice please? my 15 y/o son attends a well regarded catholic prep school (read: they don't need my kid or my money). they had an assembly today showcasing successful alumnae...big guns. then went on to tell the kids how they're all republicans and support republican values. i'm not sure if they mentioned any specific candidates. few kids are likely old enough to vote anyhow. is this not only unethical, but perhaps somewhat illegal? oh yeah, tons of lawyers there too.
Has anyone commented on this incredible William Buckley column from today:
http://nationalreview.com/
buckle...00410011418.asp
If that wasn't an endorsment of Kerry, it was pretty close.
I'm reminded of the scene in Meatballs with Bill Murray pounding the drum and chanting:
"It just doesn't matter,
It just doesn't matter,
It just doesn't matter,
..."
OK be nice to the Seattle Times reporter. I just called him and he is going to ask a few more questions of the Bellevue police.
There's been a string of robberies in the area with the specific target being computers.
The Bellevue PD has a map of the incidents.
The reporte said he did not know about the string of robberies and will pose that question to the cops.
The story will be updated.
Folks, refust to accept BS. Be nice when you contact the reporters and ask sincere questions. Not all of the are the Devil (yet).
Actually, you do debate with terrorists. The campaign for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world will determine the next 100 years of history, not the outcome of any particular military campaign. You can defeat a terrorist cell with troops, but what we need to defeat is a fundamentalist political movement. This decision is hard for many Republicans to grasp because the Jihadi movement is based on the same fear of modernity and retreat into religious fanaticism that fuels the Christian Right. So they can't condemn the ideology, they have to condemn the methods - since the religious right in this country hasn't blown up that much stuff yet (except abortion clinics) so they can still draw a distinction. But from where I sit the problem seems to religion. Terror is just a symptom. Look how the fundies tried to blame feminism and gay people for 9/11! I don't mean to offend any Christians or Muslims with this, I can respect your beliefs and all, I'm just saying you're not going to convince me to believe in your God by trying to kill me, or by using the government to try and force me to live according to your values. . .
Got sidetracked. Anyway, it is a debate. Secular liberal democracy against theocrats. At home and abroad.
Ya know, if things keep rolling along like last night I will be waiting for the "Elect Bush or he will eat dirt and die" spin.
And ya know what, I would feel pretty bad if he did.
I would have be hoping he would make it past the dirt and eat worms instead.
You dont debate with terrorists.
mike
Don't I know it! That's why Bush should have shitcanned Herr Rumsfeld for caving (no pun intended) to OBL's demands to get the troops out of Saudi Arabia.
The search for Mike’s successor will be broad and deliberate. The job is wide open.
How about James Carville? 
I think Kerry did do a good job, but did anybody else feel like they were just watching "Jeapordy", like the whole debate rotated around whether or not they remembered the name of countries and whether or not they'd mispronounce them?
Oh yeah, he did say "Nukular" too.
"You are a d sad, strange little man, and you have my pity."
---Buzz Lightyear
well said, elwood.
kelmac, the other day a couple of little girls told my son that what they all learned at assembly at their Catholic elementary school that morning was wrong - the gospel does not say that we have to take care of poor people, God wants them to get jobs and take care of themselves. The Republican gospel. Anyhow, yes, it is unethical and certainly not Catholic, as I see it -
Yep Laszlo Panaflex , only the media is saying "we don't matter -- don't take us seriously".
wysiwyg,
I say gizmo and wiley!
Hey! I read this on Pandagon: You guys gotta hit me hard instead of talking 'bout how schweet and leet that Karry karakter is.
Oh, wait ....
Seriously, Jesse is right.
Hit Dubya, and hit'im hard. Turn your boat at the enemy and discharge any and all weapons at your disposal. Keep his head down and move in on him while doing so.
In combat there's no time for being lax or celebrating the recent victory.
OT- bush likes to say the best reason to reselect me is so laura can be first lady for four more years. sure it plays well with the base but that's just stupid.
the best reason to elect John Kerry is so the new administration can be comprised of men like Holbrooke, Rubin, Clark, Bidden, etc... smart boys, who aren't fanatical ideolouges, and dipwits.
I would advise getting your kids out of any religious school.
Brainwashing is very hard to eliminate once its set in.
BULLETS
GWB on bin Laden:
"He's isolated." Hmm. Wasn't Saddam also "isolated" when you decided to invade Iraq? What made Saddam more dangerous than Osama? He was a madman? He was a threat? Interesting logic.
rather - i'm thinking they might just be dancing on the edge if they hope to continue what i assume to be a tax exempt status. any ideas on that part?
p.s. being a lifetime catholic, i would have agreed with you about it not being a catholic value either - until recently. i am horrified that their zeal on the abortion issue apparently eclipses all social justice issues.
It only gets better, Atriotes! The first debate, in which Gee Duh Byuh was so solidly and embarrassingly whomped, was about the subject of national security and the so-called "War on Terror." Everybody has been saying for months that this was President Bush's strong issue.
The next debate, however, is supposed to be about domestic economic issues. Bush has to stand up in front of a nation where the median family income has fallen $1500 during his administration, and, despite three and a half years of population growth there are currently fewer jobs than when he took office, and with all that he has to defend his record. What's President Bush going to say, "Stay the course!"?
If that last debate was a pounding, this next one promises to be an out-and-out massacre. The only bright side of it from the Republican point-of-view is it may win Gee Duh Byuh the pity vote.
BULLETS
GWB on "hope":
"That's kind of a pre-September 10th mentality, the HOPE that somehow resolutions and failed inspections would make this world a more peaceful place."
***
LEHRER: New question, Mr. President. Do you believe that diplomacy and sanctions can resolve the nuclear problems with North Korea and Iran?
BUSH: North Korea, first, I do. Let me say -- I certainly HOPE so....On Iran, I HOPE we can do the same thing, continue to work with the world to convince the Iranian mullahs to abandon their nuclear ambitions.
On NPR I heard (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Even though John Kerry won the debate Bush will keep his lead"
Spinning like the tazmanian devils that they are.
.
'Nother Faux Snooze poll to have fun with. www.foxnews.com
...
Did Thursday's presidential debate cause you to change your mind about your vote?
a. Yes, now I will vote Kerry (23%)
2,383
b. Yes, now I will vote Bush (12%)
1,259
c. No impact on my vote... (62%)
6,411
d. Not sure, I need to see other two debates (2%) 148
e. None of the above (1%)
103
10,304 total votes
smalfish, they live with a heavy dose of reality here at home. i send them for the "be kinds to others" curriculum but make damn sure they understand that would be ALL others...not just the ones that look or act like we do. when my 10 y/o says "i hate republicans" i say don't say hate, we disagree with their policies. (although i've been known to hate a few myself.)
OT: Saw a link on Sludge about Novak the traitor breaking his hip in Miami but couldn't get the link to work. Anybody know anything?
Kerry won.
They weren't prepared for this narrative. They thought that Bush would show well enough to go with their "Well it's all over for Kerry" narrative. ut-oh. Not more work! Poor little talking heads, punditry is hard work...
And does anyone care???
I'm a little concerned about the debate hype. Yes, we KILLED Bush, and the media is largely agreeing. But it is unrealistic to immediately expect a large bounce. The danger is in letting the media rewrite what happened after there is no immediate bounce.
Remember Kerry's convention? Everyone raved about it, but after there was no poll movement, the media narrative changed, and all anyone talked about was how Kerry went wrong. We can't let that happen this time. Not with 30 days left until the convention. Keep pounding away, regardless of what the first polls say. If we do, they will come around.
Check this out from of all people, Jay Nordlinger, the Managing Editor of the National Review Online.
I thought Kerry did very, very well; and I thought Bush did poorly — much worse than he is capable of doing. Listen: If I were just a normal guy — not Joe Political Junkie — I would vote for Kerry. On the basis of that debate, I would. If I were just a normal, fairly conservative, war-supporting guy: I would vote for Kerry. On the basis of that debate.
And I promise you that no one wants this president reelected more than I. I think that he may want it less.
More here: Jay Nordlinger, Managing Editor of the National Review Online
Off-topic but wild:
In a new speech, Washington Times/UPI owner Sun Myung Moon says that Jesus was a freakin' loser because he was never crowned in Congress.
Tell your Republican friends.
make that 30 days left until the ELCTION.
the most important Kerry said last night was pointing out that there are over 100,000 hours of untranslated recordings that could very well contain the details of the next 9/11.
sometimes i feel like i'm in opposite world. so many people in my office thinking bush did a good job! what??? evidently, if he had come out and butt-talked like ace ventura they would have thought he did a good job.
and i'm in a blue state!
Hmm. Sounds like Wolf Blitzer could debate himself...
To experts, the proof's verifiable:
The Chimpster's been deemed certifiable.
The padded cell's been aired.
The stratjacket's prepared.
It's time for someone who's reliable.
LOL!
Lets not make mountains out of molehills. All those guys are doing is hedging their bets in case the debates don't turn out as decisive as they predicted.
btw, congrats on your candidate making winning the debates. No point in denying the obvious
"We will pull out of Iraq no matter who wins the election."
UNTRUE. The USPNAC policy Bush is following was stated by Kissinger: 'There is no more Iraq. There will be three territories.' In other words, genocide.
The policy has been from the start CIVIL WAR. And our troops are just there to provide window dressing, while the illegal mercs and hired terrorists chop the society of Iraq into smaller and smaller bits, until the whole mess collapses.
That's Hallabja, I mean Samarra, today, Najaf and Fallujah by November. It's genocide; it's illegal; it is not in the national interest (because genocide isn't gonig to work in our favor, unless we 'kill them all,' which has been the Bush policy forever); and it is treasonous misuse of our troops.
Glad to see now the hype is burned off, and FINALLY the Bushliar supporters are admitting the obvious: it's the airbases, stupid.
Last night John Kerry specifically said that the US had NO legitimate longterm interest in staying in Iraq. That's a major difference between him, legitimate US policy, and the illegal imperialism of Bush and his negligent administration, otherwise known as the HMS "Blowback."
--
OT - Did you know the #1 hit on Google for "Lime Rickey" is one of his limericks on Atrios.blogspot.com?
"... straitjacket's ..."
The Media Whore's Creed:
"We shall tell any lie, spread any rumor, defame any character, repeat any falsehood, oppose any truth, in order to assure the survival and the success of National Corporatism."
Amen.
..
it isn't just that kerry speaks better than bush (most sixth graders do), but it's the thinking that really seperates them. surely even a republican leg-humper would agree with this. the bush boy is quite obviously brain-damaged.
angel:
Link says Novak slipped and fell in his hotel shower and will need hip replacement surgery, which will keep him off the campaign trail.
Fire Carl Cameron. (Pass it on.)
"You are all so very smart."
Julie
Thanks.
And I promise you that no one wants this president reelected more than I. I think that he may want it less.
I felt this from some of the people I was talking to today.
Can we hope for a sea change in the near future.
AFA the initial press spin,I am no worried as of yet.THere IS still two debates left for Kerry to prove that this was *not* a fluke,and that yes Junior *is* a total fuck up.
My daughter tells me that the smartest girls in her grade are all wearing "Kerry-Edwards" buttons and anti-Bush buttons. She says it's interesting that the smart kids are against Bush.
She's only 15 1/2 and wishes she could vote. From the mouths of babes.
Novak off the campagin trail. Awwwwwww...... too bad. Traitor.
"Remember Kerry's convention? Everyone raved about it, but after there was no poll movement,"
WHY would there be? This amazes me, this willingness to accept TINY samples for very large events.
210 MILLION eligible voters/
A thousand or (generally) less 'likely voters' called
------------------------
= ZERO reliable data.
Do the math. Polls are LIES.
--
I googled the phrase "let me finish" +debate, looking for some commentary on the bit where Bush inserts this into a reply last night, when no one is talking but him. I found nothing on that, so I still don't know what's up with that, but I found a slew of other occurrances in interviews and press conferences. He do love them 3 words, don't he?
kelmac - look, in all honesty, when it was over last night, Mr. Tena said: "Bush did surprisingly well." And I had to agree. Really. For him, he did the best I've pretty much seen him do, at least since 2000.
Think about it - that was his personal best, and his personal best is absolutely terrible when one is talking about the president. That may well be what is motivating your office mates to say he did ok. Because for Bush, he did.
Hmm. Sounds like Wolf Blitzer could debate himself
Good point. Those press guys are just a bunch of flip-floppers.
"ink says Novak slipped and fell in his hotel shower and will need hip replacement surgery,"
Tyranny's statue crumbles, once again.
Crying for himself the whole way, I'm sure.
"It's hard, so hard, betraying the country for money."
--
I would advise getting your kids out of any religious school.
Brainwashing is very hard to eliminate once its set in.
smalfish
Can I get an Amen?
there is no doubt about it, Kerry won this one... just looking at drudge, he ain't got nothing to work with.
as media matters says, the spin is now "well, the debates don't mean very much" and I am sure that if W picks up his performance for the next debate (or the third and final one) the whores will say that Kerry blew his chances b/c he couldn't capitalize on his first success and has therefore blown it. W will be lauded for coming back.
However, I feel really good about the prospects for the next debates.
First, on Tuesday, Edwards is going to be able to flesh out some of the points that Kerr was making - e.g. the authorization vote was a vote for giving the president all the tools he needed to lead the international community to deal wisely with Saddam, and not a vote to authorize a clusterfuck.
Second, I think there is a good chance that W is going to overcompensate for his failure last night. I think he will try to unleash a focused attack on Kerry and very well may go overboard and lose it.
Anyway, game on!
Heheheh. The Douchebag of liberty slipped in la douche.
Bush did surprisingly well."
Tena,
I agree. That was my reaction after watching CSPAN and turning off the tv. Bush did better than I expected, better than he did last week at the press conference. And he still sucked. And, this time, he sucked right next to a man who really knew what he was doing, who had thought through his answers, and who could communicate them very effectively.
I loved, in particular, how quickly Kerry responded to Lehrer's question about the worlds' worst threat. Almost stepped on Lehrer's question. No hesitation at all. And, he made Bush attempt to pronounce the n-word.
If we're right, and last night was Bush's best, the next two debates (assuming they occur) should be the sort of train-wreck from which you can't look away.
Novak slipped in the shower...
Isn't that prison jargon for getting the shit kicked out him. My personal opinion is that he's being indicted and the hip thing is a smoke screen to buy time before the election.
Smarty - Edwards-Cheney is going to be a goddamn rout.
Bush just doesn't have the chops to debate Kerry.
But in TV it's not what you say, it's how you look when you say it.
How can there be any comparison between Cheney and Edwards? The goldenboy vs. the grumble.
You know how in junior high the kids love having the retarded kid around to laugh at but still like him because they know he can't help it? Well that's what we got.
You wouldn't be talking about my kid would you? He's just autistic, though, not a "retard". All these Rain Man and retard jokes -- coming from even the Daily Show -- are really beginning to fucking piss me off. It's cheap bullshit to pick on people who are incapable of defending themselves -- especially for things they cannot change. Would you say that kind of shit about a black kid? Or a gay kid?
Fucking all of you cut that shit out NOW! There are plenty of ways to be perfectly, witheringly insulting to that fool in the White House without resorting to picking on the disabled.
Bush should be so lucky as to have a disability to explain away his intellectual shortcomings.
Novak "slipped and fell." Hmmm... Four hurricanes in Florida in, like, three weeks. Clinton, heart trouble, unable to overshadow JK. Tony Blair, heart trouble, unable to provide English Sanity to the mess in Iraq. Hmmm... Quakes in Cali..Mt. St. Helens in Washington. Sounds like the Good Lord has convened his caucus and is clearly a hard "1" for Long John Kerry.
If I were the fine folks in the Show Me state I'd start thinking twice before all that pretty corn and wheat becomes locust chow.
"I googled the phrase "let me finish" +debate, looking for some commentary on the bit where Bush inserts this into a reply last night,"
Patented R victim talk.
'See, heh-heh, that libarel media, uh, wouldn't let me finish my, my, my responsual commentary, yeah, that's it, my speakando. That's Español, speakyando. And they wouldn't let me finish, because they don't want the election erroring to be fair. We can't count all the votes, or I would lose, is what they think.'
--
Monica_CA
Well said!
This all reminds me of something... Can't remember what... I was supposed to do something, maybe...
Oh, wait...that's it.
Whew, for a second, I almost forgot Poland.
Could we, uh, change the agreement to 1 debate instead of 3?
Thanks,
The RNC
First, on Tuesday, Edwards is going to be able to flesh out some of the points that Kerr was making - e.g. the authorization vote was a vote for giving the president all the tools he needed to lead the international community to deal wisely with Saddam, and not a vote to authorize a clusterfuck.
Second, I think there is a good chance that W is going to overcompensate for his failure last night. I think he will try to unleash a focused attack on Kerry and very well may go overboard and lose it.
Anyway, game on!
I agree, and we have to do just as well in voting in the online polls, calling into the conference calls, calling and e-mailing and spinning spinning spinning, at ALL the debates. Do you think it would have gone so solidly Kerry if we all hadn't called and blogged and said, "Yeah, you're right, Joe Scarborough, you sexy beast you," and given him the idea that praising Kerry might actually get his skanky self some love?
Next time: MORE calls, more polls, more e-mails. We can crush the freepers. We are many.
A.
You're beating a dead horse there, Paul. America loves it's polls, be they bullshit or no. We, as a nation, seem to long for leadership, and we'll take it wherever we can get it.
The Media knows this, and are only too happy to oblige. They know the vast majority of people wouldn't know what to do with facts if they had 'em. These folks need to be told what to think of everything, and again, the Media is right there. And what are they gonna tell 'em? Whatever makes 'em buy more soap, and cars, and beer. Lots of cars. Lots of beer.
We are many
And the Truth is on our side!!!
Did'nt junior look so much like his cartoon images displayed in the op-ed pages?
You could have held up anyone of them and displayed it beside juniors head and you couldnt tell the difference.
"ink says Novak slipped and fell in his hotel shower and will need hip replacement surgery,"
Now, if Blitzer trips on a curb and breaks his jaw, we'll be getting somewhere.
Did you notive the look on Bush's face when Kerry mentioned the airbases being built in Iraq. Chimpy looked like Kerry was giving out national security information. This is obviously something they don't want to talk about. Long term occupation, Vietnam all over again. I suppose when we lose the 55,000 troops then the populace will get upset.
Did anyone else get the notion that Bush was wasted?
I kept thinking he just sounded sloshed the whole time.
Maybe they gave him some calm-down pills before the debate.
I mean, those pauses...painful!
What HAS happened at CNN this year? It can't all be explained by the demands of having to fill a 24-hour news hole, and the desperate attempt to retain the cable news audience. They have become just so abominably bad...or do I just have a selective memory. I can't help thinking that this twitching replication of FNC would never have happened under Ted Turner.
Novak slipped in the shower...
Isn't that prison jargon for getting the shit kicked out him. My personal opinion is that he's being indicted and the hip thing is a smoke screen to buy time before the election.
Falstaff
delicious post!
Did anyone else hear W say to Kerry in the debate, "I won't hold it against you that you went to Yale."???
Bush went to Yale too!!!
Was that his backdoor way of saying that Kerry is "Ivy League and elite", while W is the common redneck that would have a beer with you?
Or was it his way of saying that his stupidity should be forgiven because "Kerry went to Yale."
BUSH IS SO FUCKING DUMB HE CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH COLLEGE HE WENT TO!
Kerry's major debate blunder will be the talk of the weekend news progs, just as it provided Bush more material to highlight "Kerry the EuroWimp":
"Senator Kerry, last night, said that America has to pass some sort of global test before we can use American troops to defend ourselves," Bush told supporters in Allentown, Pa. "Listen, I'll continue to work with our allies and the international community, but I will never submit America's national security to an international test."
-Associated Press
Wait! Look over there! It's a major insurgent counter-offensive operation!
Debate? What debate? Who can think about silly debates when al Zarqawi is trying to KILL US ALL!!!!!
Shorter debate:
NEro:
"yOu caNt impOse arBitraRy deAdLinEs, iT jusT DoeSnt worK"
5 sMirkS later.
neRo:
"irAq wiLl haVe EleCtioNs Come JaN"
I suppose when we lose the 55,000 troops then the populace will get upset.
I could be wrong about this, but I've heard that the reason we are having a smaller number of deaths in Iraq vs. Viet Nam is that body armor is much more widely used today.
This means that while the number of fatally wounded troops has dropped (a good thing) there are still many soldiers getting maimed and wounded. If you lose a limb or get paralyzed or badly burned, you don't aren't counted in KIA, the big figure everyone talks about.
The wounded are casualties too, but the media doesn't pay them much attention.
Wait! Look over there! It's a major insurgent counter-offensive operation!
NO!Its a message from OBL!
Err,if you dont like that one we have a volcano we'd really like to tell you about.
I just emailed all of those weasels and demanded an explanation.
If I get any responses, I'll post them.
What a pack of jackals...
Kerry's major debate blunder will be the talk of the weekend news progs, just as it provided Bush more material to highlight "Kerry the EuroWimp":
Nah. I think we're all tired of this stupid macho crap. Bush showed himself for what he is--a petty little jerk hunting for phony gaffes so he doesn't have to talk reality.
Bush's worst efforts last night were when he tried to play gotcha with Kerry. That Poland thing, and the plutonium thing, and so forth. It just proved that Bush for all his big ideas talk can't last long on that level.
Monica:
You are profoundly right. Bush does not have a disability, he is just a fuckwit and he killed a lot of them braincells earlier in life. Comparing him to the disabled is nothing more than insulting to the disabled.
Bush should be so lucky as to have a disability to explain away his intellectual shortcomings.
Monica_CA
Actually, I think he does. Not that we'll ever hear of it while he's in office, unless it gets so bad he's wheeled out of the WH never to return, and even then, probably not. In sonebody's memoires, maybe.
And I include as disability, psychopathy and all the other "bad brain" type of mental illnesses. Hey, nobody wants to be born like that.
I'm also coming around to the thought that Bush may be Narcissistic--though maybe not the full-blown personality disorder--because these poor folks think everybody agrees they are God's Other Son/Daughter. I have a relative who's borderline NPD, and it's no fun to deal with. It can be, you'll pardon the expression, hard work.
"You're beating a dead horse there, Paul. America loves it's polls, be they bullshit or no. We, as a nation, seem to long for leadership, and we'll take it wherever we can get it."
No, see, there's this thing called science. It has to be educated into people, but that process does seem to be working on the broad scale. Few high school kids would say that the earth is flat.
Why adults indulge in 'polls,' and why you prefer to over-generalize this 'we as a nation' bullpucky, is not from lack of education. It's from cynicism, perhaps.
'We as a nation' are not committed to ignorance. Quite the contrary, though there are ignorance peddlars around.
The samples are too small. If they polled, say, 50,000 people, then they would have something like a legitimate poll for a class that large. The signups of new and returning voters this year invalidates these small samples, entirely.
--
Progressive friends whose kids (unlike mine who go to public school) attend a Catholic school in Denver indicated that their 13-year-old son was told that voting for Kerry would be a sin.
When liberation theology was crowded out of the Roman Catholic church a few decades ago, following the untimely death of John Paul I, I thought we would see the Church pulling back from Vatican II. I just didn't think it would go so far, so fast. I can no longer support a Church which counsels rabid unquestioning support for the Cheney right-wing death cult noise machine.
My advice: pull the kids from Catholic school. At least in public school it will be much tougher to punish them for nonconformist beliefs.
What's this about the left marching in lockstep?
www.sistersspeakout.com - George you are in deep mud. The women are pissed.
Novak slipped and fell in his hotel shower and will need hip replacement surgery,"
where we gonna get another 200 year old snake hip?
Novak slipped in the shower...
ewwwww, i didn't need the image of a naked novak splayed out in his shower going into the weekend. the poor ems crew that had to rescue him.
Monica_CA--
I have a child that has been variously labeled as autistic, asperghers, or PDD/NOS - depending on medication he's on at the time of the evaluation. Even I had to edit myself when that word popped up, almost effortlessly, this morning in one of my comments. I'm glad I caught it in time, but it really does seem to lend itself to descriptions of smirky.
That doesn't excuse it, of course. But don't let it get you down.
I had to take my child in for a social security evaluation, they set us up with a phychiatrist. She told us (in front of him, no less) that he was 'profoundly mentally retarded'. When we left the office I told him that she was a moron. Of course she had a college degree and probably didn't qualify as a 'moron'. But it sure felt good saying it.
Best to you.
From the Sisters Speak Out press release announcing the TV spot.
...
The ad was produced by Win Back Respect, a new campaign group formed to rapidly respond to Republican assertions on Iraq and national security in the final weeks of the campaign. The group has financial support from George Soros and Moveon.org, and its advisors include foreign policy experts such as Clinton National Security Advisor Anthony Lake.
Last night, members of the Band of Sisters came together from around the country to view the debate, and the ad records their reactions. "He stood on TV pretending that what's happening is not happening," Michelle Harris of Arlington, Texas says in the ad. Jane Jenson of Fitchburg, Wis., whose son currently is deployed in Iraq, says of Bush's debate performance: "He still is not taking it seriously. He still has that silly grin." Responding to the president's assertion last night that he 'has a plan' for Iraq, Brook Campbell of Atlanta, Ga. ads, "If he had a plan for progress (in Iraq), my brother might still be alive." (A full script of the ad is below.)
The ad will air beginning today in the Washington, D.C. area, and it will air beginning early next week in key markets in Wisconsin, Iowa and New Mexico. These states have high military family populations, who have been especially affected by George Bush's war in Iraq.
Win Back Respect is sponsoring a national tour headlined by the Band of Sisters and Gen. Wesley K. Clark, the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. The tour was launched on Sept. 14 in Green Bay, Wis., and it will intensify through election day, visiting key battleground states with military bases and high military family populations. Win Back Respect is airing television advertisements in conjunction with the tour.
....
I've fallen and I can't get up!
Re: Global Test
Yeah, that line was absolutely cringe-inducing. It toally played into the GOP image of both: Kerry the tentative wimp, Bush the resolute commander. A better debater operating on more than brain stem would have nailed Kerry on it. Luckily, the best Bush could do was that confused "I don't know what global test he's talkin' about" line.
I can already hear Dough-Faced Satan running wild with that one during the VP debate Tuesday.
---
Goober - the guy is so plainly hyperthyroid, just like his Mummy and Daddy, that it doesn't bear discussing (much). Every single thing shouts it out. I'm waiting for a thyroid storm in the middle of the next debate.
I can already hear Dough-Faced Satan running wild with that one during the VP debate Tuesday.
Edwards' line:
"Senator Kerry was quite clear: if action truly meets the test of the American people, it will meet the test of the world. The president misled the American people, and alienated the rest of the world."
quite devestatingly, some (albeit idiotic) commentators have pointed out that a debate victory doesn't equate with fitness-for-presidency.
in this year's case, i wish it did.
similarly: haven't we already learned that bush's support remains thick and strong despite his idiocy, his contradictions, his vacuous incompetence, and so on?
Progressive friends whose kids (unlike mine who go to public school) attend a Catholic school in Denver indicated that their 13-year-old son was told that voting for Kerry would be a sin.
Colorado. Why am I not surprised?
I copied this from Kos, who copied it from Newsweek. Good stuff.
"Republicans thought they had the race wrapped up. All their candidate had to do was repeat his road-tested slogans. But 90 minutes of Bush is a long time. There's a reason why he has held fewer press conferences than any other modern president. He is incapable of conceptual thinking, and he came across as agitated and annoyed that more was expected of him now that he's the self-styled 'war president.' He repeatedly said he is 'working hard' and 'it's hard work,' as though that alone should silence his critics.
If Republicans were overconfident going into the debate, Democrats had begun preparing themselves for defeat. Kerry had given up so much ground that he was close to being written out of the race. Voters had absorbed the image of Kerry as a flip-flopper without core convictions. A very different Kerry showed up in the debate hall. He was calm and disciplined while Bush was 'slouching and praying for the light to go on so he wouldn't have to think of anything else to repeat,' said a Democratic strategist."
You think 90 minutes of Bush is a long time? What about four more years? GOTFV.
Kerry's kicking ass on C-span, live in Kissimmee. He pounded Bush on his "tax gap" thing.
Of course she had a college degree and probably didn't qualify as a 'moron'.
Trust me, there are plenty of morons with college degrees. Morons come in all levels of Education.
In fact, I believe one such moron with a college degree is currently President.
From the Sisters Speak Out press release announcing the TV spot...
It's a GREAT ad -- and of course, Fox is promoting a new SBVT ad on H&C! (no suprises there)
Kelmac,
The school is probably a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Therefore, it is prohibited in engaging in partisan politics. I don't think it matters if they mention a candidate, especially if they are pushing a party. I recommend that you write a letter to the school's board of directors and threaten to remove your children and ask for refunds of any donations you made. You might also want to report this to your state attorney general for charitable activities. It is OK for nonprofits to discuss political issues, but only in small doses and only if they expose both sides of an issue. They can't engage is partisan politics.
I've fallen and I can't get up!
Totally evil, but it made me laugh.
I am quite confident that the Chimperator* is not going to look any better in future debates. Until last night, I was skeptical about the rumors that he has a neurodegenerative disorder, but now I'm convinced of it. There are a few possible diagnoses, but I'm leaning toward a toxic insult of some kind.
* "Imperator" is Latin for emperor. that's why I write Chimperator instead of Chimperor. But I won't do it any more.
Please view the new Rebecca Romijn Stamos ad FOR KERRY!!!
http://www.moveonpac.org/
10weeks...bC_QzDYUvYBGbQ#
I've fallen and I can't get up! - Novack said this to 911 or his confessor?
Red State Ref, he sounded like I used to feel in college after being up all night cramming for an exam.
You've got it all stuffed in your head, but you don't really know it, and you're so fucking tired and/or coked up and/or wired from coffee and cigarettes that you speak in jerks and starts and don't really make sense.
He doesn't know his stuff. He has to memorize. And memorizing something is not the same as knowing it.
A.
The signups of new and returning voters this year invalidates these small samples, entirely.
Well, hopefully it does. The next question is: will they vote?
The "youth vote" has beeen touted almost every 4 years since 18 year olds got the right to vote as the group that will change the election "this year."
Hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately.
Although I agree with your central point. I've always wondered how a sample of 1000 people (usually less than that) could be said to represent a state as diverse as, say, Texas or California, or to represent a nation as diverse as the U.S.
Pollsters insist it does. I remain unpersuaded.
noname - I think that most of Bush's supporters don't see him outside of scripted photo-ops, which is to say through the filter of ROVE-VISION.
As another poster pointed out in the Newsweek article: 90 minutes of Bush is a long time.
That was an hour and a half of stuttering, pausing, and basically looking alternately frustrated or confused during Prime Time.
This is idiocy on a whole new level. He's gotten support because the only image in people's head is Bush with the megaphone at Ground Zero. Now they can contrast that with a short, inarticulate, confused guy. He had none of the swagger that makes him effective despite his shortcomings as a public speaker. He didn't look comfortable with himself at all, and that's huge.
Kerry is the Candidate for You
John Kerry's Position on Iraq
toxic insult - as in "Your Mother wears combat boots"?
themulls, my kids are still in catholic school and will likely stay for awhile. i wrote my pastor saying i'm pulling contributions to the parish until the church speaks out forcefully against those who say to vote for a candidate that does not support anti abortion legislation is a sin. i used to think spirituality was a journey, but now it seems to have become either you're with us or agin'st us mentality. hard to break habits of 47 years though.
Do we really want a President who is incapable of conceptual thinking?
The Republicans should be terrified. In fact I've thought for months the polls have been wrong anyway. My Mantra of Positive thought has been:
1. NO Gore voters will vote for Bush
2. I PERSONALLY know some Bush voters voting against him this year and you do too.
3. Voter registration is way up, most of those will be votes against Bush.
4. The independent vote will swing against Bush.
5. Nader will not be nearly as much as a factor.
6. The Democrats will NOT allow a stolen election again.
Keep repeating this to yourself and stay positive.
I predict a Kerry landslide that shocks the country (but not me).
Nathan,
Troll elsewhere turd or turd elsewhere troll. Take your pick.
According to a story on Yahoo news, 62.5 million people watched the debate / ass-whupping last night. The right wing media is saying to those people, "Who are you going to trust, us, or your lying eyes?" What I fear is that as the days pass, people's memories of what they saw and heard -- Bush demonstrating for the entire world, including al Qaeda and every other terrorist organization on the planet, that he is a weak, ineffectual leader -- will be supplanted by what the RWM / RNC tells them they saw and heard. We Kerry supporters must not, cannot, let that happen.
i'm pulling contributions to the parish until the church speaks out forcefully against those who say to vote for a candidate that does not support anti abortion legislation is a sin.
What about if you vote for Giuliani? That guy is pro choice and the Diocese is all over him.
Nathan, you're pitiful.
Is this the best you can do?
I hope you're not draftable, darling.
"ink says Novak slipped and fell in his hotel shower and will need hip replacement surgery,"
Now, if Blitzer trips on a curb and breaks his jaw, we'll be getting somewhere.
schadenfreude (n)
Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.
Official news report:
My beloved husband Douch - I mean Bob, fell in the hot tub while undergoing Reiki treatment, and receiving a French manicure. It is with great sadness that the family announces that Bob will have to go into long term therapy in a yet unnamed spa in Messopotamia.
Mrs. Bob Novak
The "youth vote" has beeen touted almost every 4 years since 18 year olds got the right to vote as the group that will change the election "this year."
Hasn't happened yet. Unfortunately.
Yet but the youth until recently haven't had a military service draft hanging over their heads like th sword of damocles.
Hopefully that will motivated the lazy little fucks.
pixie --
IMO, your basic four-year degree is in many cases, merely a certificate that says you've been able to sit still and regurgitate information upon request for four years. How many of our greatest artists, entrepeneurs, and writers were college drop-outs, after all?
But I think that you and both our children and I have every right to get angry when we hear and read those things. I see a brain-fried alcoholic/cokehead when I look at Chimpy myself -- oh and a serious case of some kind of personality disorder...
A high-functioning DD person would, frankly, be far less belligerent, far more patient, and a hell of a lot more prepared than Bush was last night.
Toxic insult as in a whole lot of ethanol. He has deficiencies in short term memory, and probably frontal lobe damage. Could be various explanations though.
I hope you're not draftable, darling.
pie
Maybe Nathan's got himself one of those patented Rush Limbaugh Draft Defeating Ass Welts.
red state, i agree. bush only has 20 good minutes, TOPS. after that he becomes quite agitated. in spite of that, a surprising number of bush supporters i know believed he did "well" in debate. i send a copy of eisenhower's endorsement of kerry to everyone who says that. to many, being republican is part of their identity. they need to know there are people like them that have the courage to say enough is enough.
It took almost 24 hours for the trolls to recover from last night's ass-whupping.
heehee
Maybe the most important thing is that Kerry defined the Reality vs. Fantasy disparity on the Iraq War. Bush tried to emphasize (through constant repetition, duh) that freedomizing Iraq would be "hard" (and even described himself as a Realist AND an Optimist - kind of like being a War President AND a Peace President, a Uniter AND a Divider), but Kerry clearly staked out the (growing consensus) view that Iraq is deteriorating rapidly, and that this is due to Bush's poor judgment and failure to execute.
The situation in Iraq will continue to deteriorate. This will make Kerry's position increasingly valid, increasingly acute. Bush has been effective in repressing press coverage and (especially) imagery of the deteriorating Iraq situation, but more and more stories and opinions are getting through, and the obvious is getting harder to avoid. The only way Bush can continue to confuse and confabulate the picture of a failing Iraq is to bomb the hell out of insurgent areas, which is in the plans anyway as a means of "pacifying" (remember Vietnam) regions so "voting" can occur without too much (or too obvious) violence, manipulation or fraud. When this happens - and the military campaign started today - the results are likely to prove profoundly sickening, and the insurgent response equally so.
Expect louder and louder Rightist complaints that Kerry and Democrats is/are "hoping" for more violence. And as the election (ours) nears and Kerry appears increasingly likely as the victor, expect every vicious technique and the book - and many new ones - to be inflicted on the body politic.
Sorry to preach. You start out to make a little point and then ...
Has any one seen this poll? Very nice...
http://www.care2.com/polling/results/175
I would'nt vote for Giuliani if he was the only candidate that was pro choice.He is a schmuck and a tool.Party line all the way.
I hate party lines.
I hate lines period.White or otherwise.
Say...is there any reason I've been having a booger of a time getting Eshcaton to load? Whatever browser I use gets hung up somewhere along the line. Have I overstepped my bounds, and is the A-man tired of the continual references to pot and musical minutae? In other words, is this just me?
Now...about the debates. I didn't get to watch 'em. One, no cable, and two, I had to play a show last night. My band's last, so as a bass player - and otherwise, frankly - I'm free, single and disengaged. More importantly than that, however, is that EVERYONE I talked to was talking about the debates. And not just the normal wonks, but folks previously unconcerned with politics.
And what's more, everyone except for one person felt that Kerry wiped the floor with Bush. The one person - a former co-worker - said she thought it was a tie, but Kerry "looked more presidential". She was trying to pull off the whole "I'd rather have a beer with Bush" thing, but she didn't put much heart in it.
Also, as I left work today - a 10-hour monster (game weekend) which was especially fun with two hours' sleep and a serious three-alarm hangover - there was a big rally in front of the UGA arches for Kerry. Lots of "Honk for Kerry" signs and LOTS of honking.
And best of all, one of the managers at work let a lot of the kids go register to vote, most for the first time. Something like a dozen or so under-25 year olds who've never been interested in the political process, much less the debates or voting. And each and every one of them is voting for Kerry.
Beloved, I got a good feeling about things.
GWPDA: Bush may have put off this year's physical, but what about the others? I can't see such a treatable dosease being let go to this extent for someone like the POTUS. Unless maybe Bush is just in permanent denial about anything being wrong with him...?
A high-functioning DD person would, frankly, be far less belligerent, far more patient, and a hell of a lot more prepared than Bush was last night.
So true.
Well, batshit...Anonymous at 7:20 was me. Cleared out the cookies.
I understand that people identify with the party. But nothing will make them doubt that identity then 3 more solid hours (in the next 2 debates) of discomfort.
I had a choir director (don't laugh) who used to say the one thing that dooms any performer is to look nervous. If you aren't comfortable, the audience will sense that discomfort, and feel it themselves. Being embarrassed for your candidate might at first cause sympathy, but this will only last in the hardest of the hardcore. The others will begin to see that Kerry is calm, collected, and sensing that confidence will be drawn to his side.
That's my theory anyway.
cervantes,
Actually, my favorite term from medical jargon, is theraputic misadventure, used to describe synergistic drug interactions with serious (fatal) consequences. Sounds like it ought to be used to define a 3 day bender.
I think Kerry did do a good job, but did anybody else feel like they were just watching "Jeapordy", like the whole debate rotated around whether or not they remembered the name of countries and whether or not they'd mispronounce them?
Speaking of which, mullah is pronounced "moo-lah"? Really?
Athenae is right about keeping the pressure on, as is everyone who has said that today. Keep the pressure on. Keep it going - don't let them get started on one of their patented spin out of control jobs.
pie - it also took that long for the GOP to figure out some talking points to carry forward.
Heh, indeed.
And the personality disorder of course dates from early childhood. The blowing up frogs thing is pretty definitive. Sociopaths are usually substance abusers, so it's expected to have that dual diagnosis. We'll see if they can manage to keep him pasted together for the next two debates, I'm betting no.
Please view the new Rebecca Romijn Stamos ad FOR KERRY!!!
http://www.moveonpac.org/
10weeks...bC_QzDYUvYBGbQ#
Re: Giuliani - I was just taking a cheap shot at the Catholic Church, who has been beligerrent about Kerry and his pro choice views, but is infatuated with Giuliani, another catholic who is pro-choice.
IOKWTCCIYAR
(It's OK with the Catholic Church if you are a republican)
The Republicans should be terrified. In fact I've thought for months the polls have been wrong anyway. My Mantra of Positive thought has been:
1. NO Gore voters will vote for Bush
2. I PERSONALLY know some Bush voters voting against him this year and you do too.
3. Voter registration is way up, most of those will be votes against Bush.
4. The independent vote will swing against Bush.
5. Nader will not be nearly as much as a factor.
6. The Democrats will NOT allow a stolen election again.
Keep repeating this to yourself and stay positive.
I predict a Kerry landslide that shocks the country (but not me).
smalfish, speaking of giuliani, did you see how the land's end employees were tricked into a bush campaign speech given by giuliani in wisconsin? they were told it was going to be a motivational speech and were treated to a kerrybashingfest.
The Republicans should be terrified. In fact I've thought for months the polls have been wrong anyway. My Mantra of Positive thought has been:
1. NO Gore voters will vote for Bush
2. I PERSONALLY know some Bush voters voting against him this year and you do too.
3. Voter registration is way up, most of those will be votes against Bush.
4. The independent vote will swing against Bush.
5. Nader will not be nearly as much as a factor.
6. The Democrats will NOT allow a stolen election again.
Keep repeating this to yourself and stay positive.
I predict a Kerry landslide that shocks the country (but not me).
Well, batshit...Anonymous at 7:20 was me. Cleared out the cookies.
Backslider
Like we couldn't tell it was you Backman. Cool report on the presense of Kerrydom.
Oh god, I lurve Rebecca Romijn. How dumb
does Jon Stamos have to be to cheat on
a woman like that...
That said, curses to the idiots who
made her unrecognizable in that rubber suit in the
X-Men movies.
Something like a dozen or so under-25 year olds who've never been interested in the political process, much less the debates or voting. And each and every one of them is voting for Kerry.
I think that's one of the most positive consequences of the debate / ass-whupping, and I hope it's happening everywhere: people waking up to the facts that (1) there really is a huge fucking difference between Kerry and Bush, and (2) that difference will make a huge fucking difference in this country's future. Seriously, who would you want representing you to the world?
Moolah!
I forgot about that! I thought it was really hilarious at the time, but I'm not sure if that was wrong or not.
Fox is promoting a Bukkake on Hannity's face (no suprises there)
....
Le Monde's correspondent:
Kerry was, as usualy, very solid in the fondament and rather cold in the delivery. He committed a technical error in constantly addressing the moderator, Jim Lehrer, instead of the cameras. Kerry gave the impression that he was not participating in a nationwide political broadcast while Bush acted as if he were at the podium in a hotel conference room.
The first debate decisively keeps John Kerry in the race.
Yes, therapeutic misadventure is part of their problem. They're obviously trying to keep him together with drugs, but it's a difficult balancing act. They can't afford to trank him too much, and they counteract it for public appearances with amphetamines. they're making a bigger mess the longer they try to string it out.
OT but a major victory:
DEA Gives Up Battle Against Hemp-Based Foods
Now we just need a President who will give up the battle against hemp-based fuels grown in America to end dependence on foreign sources of fuel.
Will Kerry be that President?
red state, i don't know how to recreate quotes here but what you said about catholics supporting giuliani was a gut-shot. i always figured the collective "church" supported republicans because of abortion. NEVER thought of the pro-choice republicans being supported as well. damn. i was hoping to not have to change religions until my youngest was out of grade school.
Remember to metaphorically castrate Russert.
MTP@NBC.com
Bury the bastards this sunday and saturday.
Nathan=IDIOT
I love the bullshit hit counter on the anti Kerry page.
Jeezus the rethug formula if the first round of lies fails CONTINUE TO LIE.
Folks now is not the time to rest. Kerry won but the powers that be will do anything to spin this.
Example, in my state there was a breakin of the Bush campaign office.
What really happened is the computers closest to the point of entry were stolen.
Nothing political at all.
Of course you get this gem from our head liar in the state.
"To me there is some scary stuff going on from liberal radicals whose Bush hatred is out of control," Vance said.
BULLSHIT.
I dunno, I've read that Giuliani got plenty of support from the RC church here in NYC.
Wish I had a link about it.
daydream, i sure hope so. when bush supporters today were saying they couldn't talk to me about politics because i know more than they do, i told them democracy wasn't a spectator sport and if they choose to sit on their asses they better start learning to goose step!
Edwards vs. Cheney - OMG, I cannot wait. I cannot wait.
I will repeat my comment from early this morning - Defib is gonna think John Edwards has a microwave in his pocket.
Bwaaahahahaha!
Bob Novak's unsent blog postings
Will Kerry be that President?
Hemp Liberty
You never know, I sure he sampled some of that good shit during the war though. What we need is a general amnesty for all pot related crimes and complete de-criminalization of marijuana.
Fox news touched up the news photos of Kerry and GWB shaking hands to make GWB look taller. Are we in Soviet Russsia or what?
Well, I'll drag my old, very own, personal prediction chestnut out of the shed here:
It's going to take a major, public crack-up to get these loons out of office.
And it sure does seem, after last night, like Bushie is headed right for one.
It's sickening when it isn't funny how the punditocracy has been all in a tither trying to spin Bush's utter wash-out as a victory, and is instead settling on it being a tie. A tie. That's the best lie they can muster in the face of the miserable failure's miserable failure last night.
Defib is gonna think John Edwards has a microwave in his pocket.
I just heard that the rule here is that they will have to be seated during the debate.
WTF????
Cheneykins isn't fit to serve.
Paul,
As someone who does polling and survey research for a living I'd have to make a slight correction.
You don't need anything like a sample of 50K people. 2K people would reduce the margin of error adequately to make very accurate predictions and generalize to a population the size of all eligible voters in the U.S.
The problem is the sampling METHOD much more than the sample size. A non random sample, no matter the size, is very dubious -- though not necessarily worthless and bullshit. Clearly, online polls oversample those who can afford computers and ISPs. And Gallup (as well as other organizations) clearly oversample republicans for reasons that are quite indefensible.
Re: Global Test
Yeah, that line was absolutely cringe-inducing. It toally played into the GOP image of both: Kerry the tentative wimp, Bush the resolute commander --
And Kerry compounded the issue in stating he would allow the military to defend America only if he "could you can prove to the world" that it was acceptable to do so.
Then, when he went off into promising that he would act to unilaterally disarm ("shut down") America of it's nuclear capabilities in order to show good faith to North Korea and Iran, Kerry set a new record for naivety.
Did anyone else catch Aaron Brown say to Aaron MacGruder after the post debate interview last night, "We're equal opportunity here." Now I don't think Brown is a racist, I think he was trying to shrug off what MacGruder was saying about Chimpy being very, very stupid. Basically admitting that the SCLM doesn't exist.
Remember to metaphorically castrate Russert.
Awww! C'mon!!! I'm so sick of this metaphor this, and metaphor that.
Why can't we just actually castrate Russert?
Oh yeah... that's right, I forgot. He has no balls. Yeah, yeah. My bad.
Don't know if this has been said before, but it bears repeating - that global standard thing Kerry mentioned just means when we say there's WMD's and an urgent threat to us and our allies, urgent enough to declare a pre-emptive war, then there is one. The standard is truthfulness.
Novak fell in the shower and broke his hip?? Is that for real?
Dope can't use soap on a rope.
And the personality disorder of course dates from early childhood. The blowing up frogs thing is pretty definitive. Sociopaths are usually substance abusers, so it's expected to have that dual diagnosis. We'll see if they can manage to keep him pasted together for the next two debates, I'm betting no.
I agree, he seems to have a personality disorder that is a combination of narcissism and sociopathy. The frog-blowing up history is definitely sociopathic.
Narcissists tend to:
1. Alienate others and create feelings of anger toward the narcissist.
2. Lack true compassion or empathy. They may try to fake it however to manipulate others.
3. Be highly manipulative and will lie and deceive to get their way.
4. Have feelings of grandiosity- God wants me to be in the White House.
5. Externalize responsibility- blame others for one's own shortcommings.
6. React with anger and subsquent depression to narcissistic injuries (e.g., criticisms).
He didn't look comfortable with himself at all, and that's huge.
He didn't look comfortable in his own skin.
You can cast your vote on a number of topics here, including the fairness of a whole bunch of our fave TV "newspeople".
http://www.pollingpoint.com/
RE: a tie
I think the press just has Football announcer syndrom. Let me explain FAS.
If you are calling a football game, the last thing you want to convey is that one team will totally dominate the other. Even the most boring, banal blowout must be hyped as one of the great moments in sporting history. Often, the inferior team will be given heaps for praise for even the smallest effort, and the prospect that they might turn the game around is always held out, so that people will stay tuned.
Sound familiar? The press doesn't want to say that the first debate was a blowout, because, counting Cheney Edwards, we're still in the first quarter. There's three more to play! So a tie is really the only rational thing for the press to call on the first debate. How do you sell advertising to an afterthought?
Keep the race close as long as possible, that keeps people tuned into the car commercials. Simple ratings-whoring.
Please view the new Rebecca Romijn Stamos ad FOR KERRY!!!
http://www.moveonpac.org/
10weeks...bC_QzDYUvYBGbQ#
Oh, and this happens to be on topic - I came to post - Score one for the good guys! - check it out, we, the royal We that is, are the good guys: http://tinyurl.com/7yspv
kelmac - I hope you told them too that their ignorance of politics and their acknowledgment that you know more ought to clue them that they should rethink their support for Bush. I mean, they just admitted that you, the Kerry supporter, is more informed. Would not that lead most people to consider that perhaps they should take a look at the candidate whom the person who is better informed supports?
Gaagh!
Right Blogistan is seizing upon Kerry's use of the words "global test" (re: preemptive American military strike) as Kerry's big gaffe.
Let's stop this spin before it gets too tightly wound.
Speakout@foxnews.com
Send them e-mail to let them know you don't appreciate them changing pictures to make GWB look taller standing beside Kerry when they are shaking hands.
The post-debate polls are showing that Americans felt Kerry won on style, but Bush won on substance. I concur. Kerry had many of his facts wrong. He had no plan for Iraq. He botched or lied about the Tommy Franks data. He was wrong about the subways being closed during the GOP convention. He stated that Iraq has cost us $200 Billion, when it has cost over $100 Billion. He created yet another position regarding his view of the war on Iraq.
But despite being wrong with the data, at least he was able to show that he speaks in a commanding tone and doesn't stumble over his words. In addition, his make-up crew was able to remove or cover the fake tan, and his hair and clothing were perfect. He smiled at the right times, and used just the right amount of hand and arm movement to stress his talking points.
I think Kerry is at his best in a debate class type of setting. He'll make a good guest on the cable news shows after he loses in November.
Freeperati reports that MSNBC has fired Republican pollster Frank Luntz.
tena, i try & try. amazingly, people seem to want to shut down rather than be exposed to facts! here's the real dilemma - i'm "the boss"! "jokingly" told one i don't think people who want to take facts into account are very smart and i'd prefer we have a smart person in his position. subsequently retracted saying everyone has a right to their opinion but it really is better if they know what they're talking about.
Backslider - the minute you said "Beloveds, ..." I knew it was you.
kelmac, don't let the unthinking drive you out of the church. educate them. at my church last weekend there was a table display on faithful citizenship and it included a piece on Cardinal Ratzinger's statement that Catholics can vote for pro-choice politicians after balancing all the issues. the church is far from perfect. but look at the teachings over the years and more recently on rights of the worker, death penalty, and, most important, the war in Iraq. the repubs in my church will justify their vote because of abortion but they are really repubs because they are greedy and need their tax cuts to buy gas for their hummers.
It's that obvious, huh...
"I can't see such a treatable disease being let go to this extent for someone like the POTUS. Unless maybe Bush is just in permanent denial about anything being wrong with him...?"
Goober, I wish I could say you were probably right, but I've seen people desperately trying to get a diagnosis for ten years not get one until they go into a thyroid storm. There's no indication that the 'Bush children' were tested when their parents went hyper - and even if they were, sudden-onset hyper is something that can be missed pretty easily unless there's constant testing - and there almost never is. I look at Shrub's eyes and I see the gradual opthalmic distortion, look at his behavior patterns, his energy followed by crashes, lack of concentration, nerves, lack of muscular control - with his family history, I just have to say hyperthyroid. Yes, it's relatively easy to treat, but yes, there's no way he'd pay any attention to somebody suggesting it as a possibility. We'll never know of course, unless somebody fesses up.
amen to that, rather. have sent ratzinger's comments to a number of people who refused to believe they came from the vatican. sounds like we might be in the same parish. it's all about the dough. they throw a couple thousand into catholic charities and feel they've done their civic duty.
My favorite whore comment pre debate was from the debate book thief George Will when he said that Bushbaby's best tactic would be to say that he would cede all of his time to Kerry so that Kerry could once and for all explain his position on Iraq... hmm.. maybe it would have been better for bush to shut the fuck up for 90 minutes rather than babble
"The post-debate polls are showing that Americans felt Kerry won on style, but Bush won on substance."
Which polls are those?
It's that obvious, huh... - Backslider
The sweet smelling pale blue haze that emanates from the monitor every time you post is a dead giveaway. ;^) breathes deeply, coughs breates deeply again.
The post-debate polls are showing that Americans felt Kerry won on style, but Bush won on sub........ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..
What I want to know, is the Christian Right going to pay any attention to this? Or is is 'OK To Say That If You're A Republican'? OTSTIYAR
Oliver Burkeman in New York
Friday October 1, 2004
The Guardian
He is the conservative bastion of the US supreme court, a favourite of President Bush, and a hunting partner of the vice-president. He has argued vociferously against abortion rights, and in favour of anti-sodomy laws.
But it turns out that there is another side to Justice Antonin Scalia: he thinks Americans ought to be having more orgies.
Challenged about his views on sexual morality, Justice Scalia surprised his audience at Harvard University, telling them: "I even take the position that sexual orgies eliminate social tensions and ought to be encouraged."
Which polls are those? - Bernd
The polls that are Bush's allies that only muckdog can see.
Debunkerite: Narcissistics also have Big Plans, and never bat an eye over the last Big Plan that never came to fruition. Sound like anyone we know?
hey fuckdog
How does Bush's shit taste?
"He was wrong about the subways being closed during the GOP convention."
Anybody have the truth?
Links please.
Which polls are those?
I think he meant Poles. BushCo says- "don't forget the Poles."
muckdog, Bush was awful last night.
How can you continue to support a loser?
He's such a coward, too. Never confronts an audience who asks hard questions. Kerry was gentel with him last night, and he still couldn't handle it.
Is this really the guy you want defending this country?
Not me. He's an idiot, and his agenda is going to get us all killed.
did anyone see joe scarborough post-debate last night? i wasn't listening 100%, but could swear he was making excuses for bush saying things that essentially amounted to "middle america will accept his style" because that's how people talk. or they know people who talk like that. i looked up the transcript but it looks like they buried it in "crosstalk". can anyone confirm? i was so pissed. does he think america's "heartland" is populated by a bunch of semi-literate, inarticulate bumpkins?
My day job is watching the news, and on a show I watch in St Louis, they showed a segment by Kurtz, talking about the post debate spin, on the local Fox affiliate. I was shocked that any media outlet would run a story that pointed to all their faults.
You know, for all the Democrats who have this secret crush on Giuliani and McCain, those two fuckheads are the WORST at taking advantage of 9-11.
Here's McCain yet again, from today's New York Times:
"This president showed last night why the American people have placed their trust and confidence in his leadership since he stood in the rubble of the World Trade Center,"
SHAMELESS
.
Iraq has cost us $200 Billion, when it has cost over $100 Billion
Lame-assed troll that is just insipid. 187 billion is a fuck of a lot closer to 200 billion than it is to 100 billion. But if you really believe that, then hey, why not loan me 500 bucks? I could use it right now, and I know when I pay back 250.00 you won't be complaining, because that's close enough for you!
Bush win on substance??? Bwahahaha! I've seen more substance in the average merengue than in his "arguements".
Disclaimer:
I hesistate to call his parroting of premasticated talking points arguements, but, well English isn't always the best discriptive language out there.
Dubya can't lead his own ass.
Somehow I can't see the nuns who marched against the Vietnam war when I was in high school being pro-Shrub now. Some of them are still alive and teaching. The Church in America is as divided as the rest of the country politically. You can find pockets of hardheaded conservatives among the clergy but in my area the position seems to be that politicking stays outside the church door.
Hey welcome back trolls, where you been all day, down in the basement licking your wounds. You hero got his ass handed to him last night. No ifs, ands or buts. No amount of trolling or bullshit will change that. Sorry no sympathy from us, you suck and your candidate couldn't have looked worse if he was blowing a goat on prime time T.V.
OK New Yorkers was the Subway shut down during NAZICON 2004?
Regarding the poll results posted by ANUS.
All results are based on telephone interviews with 615 registered voters, aged 18+, who watched the presidential debate September 30, 2004. Respondents were first interviewed September 28-29, 2004, when they indicated there was some chance they would watch tonight's debate and were willing to be called back. For results based on the total sample of debate watchers, one can say with 95% confidence that the margin of sampling error is ±4 percentage points.
In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.
Polls conducted entirely in one day, such as this one, are subject to additional error or bias not found in polls conducted over several days.
Very vague. We need an age breakdown, an income breakdown, a race breakdown etc.
We need the questions as well.
G. Goober Goober, EFB, HSG: Yes, lot's of grandiosity living in a world of their own making- Bushworld. Being challenged with the facts seems to make little difference in their world view due to their low capacity for insight.
Ahianne
glad to hear that....thanks
.....
Beware, the trolls are regrouping and will have a VERY NASTY ATTACK Monday morning.
GWPDA --
Goddamn, do I know what a fucked-up thyroid will do to a person. An old co-worker had a bad one and when it went, she got mean, nasty, violent -- threw things -- paranoid as all hell...
It's very possible Bush is having similar problems, but I'm still more of the opinion that it's a personality disorder compounded by long-term substance abuse.
Surfdork: Thanks for the heads-up on the Bellevue break-in. I live in Bellevue WA, so I figured it was my responsibility to contact hte writer; I sent him a (fairly soft) email, hope it helps:
Hey, Karl Rove has a history of performing stunts like this on his own office.
There's something ridiculous about the idea of Angry Liberals busting their way into campaign offices. Watergate was a Republican crime, Karl Rove bugged his own office, the break-in at Daniel Ellsburg's office was another Republican job ... how many corollary Democrat break-ins can you think of? Zero? Thought so.
Please remember that there's an election coming up, please remember who the Dirty Tricksters always are, and please write with probity, discernment and above all skepticism.
Bob Love
Bellevue, WA
Surfdork: Thanks for the heads-up on the Bellevue break-in. I live in Bellevue WA, so I figured it was my responsibility to contact hte writer; I sent him a (fairly soft) email, hope it helps:
Hey, Karl Rove has a history of performing stunts like this on his own office.
There's something ridiculous about the idea of Angry Liberals busting their way into campaign offices. Watergate was a Republican crime, Karl Rove bugged his own office, the break-in at Daniel Ellsburg's office was another Republican job ... how many corollary Democrat break-ins can you think of? Zero? Thought so.
Please remember that there's an election coming up, please remember who the Dirty Tricksters always are, and please write with probity, discernment and above all skepticism.
Bob Love
Bellevue, WA
Dude: Paul & I disagree about some things--& he's right, I am somewhat cynical--but I think we're on the same page sample-wise. How can a truly random sample be any good? Any sample would have to be weighted in 12 different directions, to try to reflect the actual social/intellectual/economic melting pot we have here. If you ask people from Beverly Hills, and don't include some from the Barrio, and ask engineers, but not farmers, and all in the proper proportions, for each stste sampled, what good is it? And a properly proportioned sample would have to be freaking huge to be more than merely interesting.
Nov 2 is the only poll that counts. The rest are an amusement, and maybe an indicator of...indications. I'll concede you know more about your craft than I do, but those small numbers just don't look right in a country of almost 300M people.
the trolls are regrouping and will have a VERY NASTY ATTACK Monday morning.
Yawn. They've got nothin'.
...it's a personality disorder compounded by long-term substance abuse.
Sounds about right.
According to news reports Bush has come out swinging the day after the debate. I guess you could call this his "I Shoulda Said" tour
without a doubt bush's problems are linked to substance abuse. sadly, it's amazing how much he reminds me of my brother when he was sober. his speech required a great deal of effort to articulate and enunciate when sober. plus the impatience. very similar.
Did anyone else notice that the smirking chimp drank water like an untreated alcoholic? Of course, he didn't slam it like he did booze when he was drinking. Don't get me wrong, I respect anyone that overcomes their personal problems -- but this man is just nuts. Was the remark about leashes (reference to his daughter)a fruedian slip and a reference to his role in the prison abuse scandal?
When he said, "Let me finish" - was he talking to the voices in his head? Inquiring minds want to know...
add these and the 35 little ones from yesterday to your list Mr. Bush, you can put them after Poland....prick
blood will flow like oil
The post-debate polls are showing that Americans felt Kerry won on style, but Bush won on substance.
On planet Koozbain.
Kerry had many of his facts wrong. He had no plan for Iraq.
Yes he did. Too much jerking off might lead to deafness. Consult your local physician.
He botched or lied about the Tommy Franks data.
No he didn't, the essence of his point was correct, but compared to Bush who botches/lies all the time, I can see how one might get confused.
He was wrong about the subways being closed during the GOP convention.
He didn't say ALL the subways ALL the time. You've got to pay more attention.
He stated that Iraq has cost us $200 Billion, when it has cost over $100 Billion.
Getting there; $138 billion today; $200 by next year. What's a few billion between friends, eh?
He created yet another position regarding his view of the war on Iraq.
No he didn't.
But despite being wrong with the data, at least he was able to show that he speaks in a commanding tone and doesn't stumble over his words.
And what a relief that was. The Westworld robot (nothing can go wrnog) you call a President was falling apart on stage.
In addition, his make-up crew was able to remove or cover the fake tan, and his hair and clothing were perfect. He smiled at the right times, and used just the right amount of hand and arm movement to stress his talking points.
Beats looking like the Grinch on meth.
I think Kerry is at his best in a debate class type of setting. He'll make a good guest on the cable news shows after he loses in November.
muckdog | Email | Homepage | 10.01.04 - 7:42 pm | #
I'm sure Bush will find a good place to detox after he loses in November.
i figured bush would get bopped upside the head one good one for talking about leashes. can just imagine it now! rove: "never, ever used the word leashes again!"
Second debate might not be so good. Screened questions from screened dimwits, SCLM shill fearful of offending His Majesty, and potentially difficult questions for Kerry which are unanswerable in two minutes. Also, I'm concerned that Edwards might not be able to sink to Cheney's level in the veep debate. Imagine a sneering Cheney smugly savaging Kerry, and Edwards faux sincerity and smile not rising to the defense adequately. He's polite and non-confrontational, he might very well lose badly if the topics don't easily allow attacks re: Halliburton, SoD history, Ken Lay/Energy Commission, etc.
The third debate, to me, seems to be the ultimate opportunity to drive the stake through BushCo's heart. There is so much ammo and so little time, if Dim Son even shows up. I've dreamed of someone, anyone hammering away on this twit relentlessly, publicly humiliating this pig and his cronies. I hope Kerry will, and if last night was any indication, it will be great.
The essence of my somewhat pessimistic blather is that we shouldn't be counting chickens until the deed is done. There's much hard work ahead and possible setbacks. We need to show resolve and stay the course! No mexed massages!
Bob, my pleasure. The Bellevue cops are complicit in this in that they are not giving full information. They did not tell the reporter how frequent these computer thefts are in Bellevue. They did not tell the reporter that all items stolen were from the area closest to the point of entry.
Lies of omission.
"Yawn, they've got nothing"
BULLSHIT, THEY WILL MAKE UP SOMETING.
THEY DON'T NEED ANYTHING.
Folks, be ready.
Atrios, those before/after quotes on the Media Matters site are absolutely outrageous.
I guess you could call this his "I Shoulda Said" tour
Exactly. This was addressed on NPR today. Bush couldn't think on his feet last night.
Today, his handlers come up with the script and he spouts what he didn't say last night.
This time he read his *rebuttal*. Easy. Pathetic.
You trolls want someone who has to have his talking points written by Karen and Karl?
Who's running this country anyway?
It sure ain't georgie.
OT:
Now we know why McCain is stumping with the Preznit.
Bush really did look pathological at times last night. He actually frightened me last night, going off on some of the weird tangents he went off on and, saying "Let me finish," to no one was really spooky.
Second debate might not be so good. Screened questions from screened dimwits, SCLM shill fearful of offending His Majesty, and potentially difficult questions for Kerry which are unanswerable in two minutes.
And GOPeratives pretending to be 'undecided'.
Both camps should be able to pre-screen the audience (i.e. w/ Google) and toss potential plants, like jury selection.
was just reading tom shales' review of the debate and hadn't seen this comparison yet:
"One longtime political observer -- among the friends canvassed by this critic -- was more irreverent about the debate and how the two debaters came off: "It was Andy Griffith meets Barney Fife," he said, with Kerry in the Griffith role -- solid, sanguine, sensible -- and Bush as the nervous Fife."
Repukes, please denounce your crazed leader.
Don't go through life as a vile bottom feeder.
Stop kicking small girls,
And stomping on squirrels.
A clear conscience can develop your peter.
Monica_CA - Well, I point to it not only because the symptoms seem awfully clear, but because of the genetics. To have -both- parents, unrelated to each other in any degree, have fullblown, non-induced cases of hyperthyroidism (you can call it Graves, but I call it hyper), pretty much asserts that you're going to have a child with the disposition for hyperthyroidism. Whether that child manifests is a different issue, but one of the triggers is acute stress, age between 40-60, all that stuff. Just saying.
Heya, I don't know if the debate had anything to do with this, but I saw this fun game yesterday where all the points you get become votes for the candidate you chose to play as. Kerry is in a solid lead on it now.. Check it out.
www.thepoliticalcircus.com
Who's running this country anyway?
It sure ain't georgie.
that's a foregone conclusion. he came out with five or six things to say. his job was to figure out a way to link those things to the question so they might have a tenuous appearance of being relevant. i have to wonder if even those who are really in charge aren't second guessing their choice as puppet leader.
Fucking McCain - I've never seen anyone straddle fences as far apart with such short little legs as he tries to. He's sickening. He has no morals at all politically.
Ooo! I know!
Jenna/Not-Jenna in a reality T.V. show after November.
Whaddya think? Huh?
Paula Zahn online poll results at end of hour on CNN.
Practice, Practice, Practice. Go vote now at CNN.COM. Click her face to find the poll. (no direct link, I'm a novice)
I am the Great And Powerful Oz! Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain...
Tena,
Another thing that's really spooky is the fact that thousands of Bush supporters saw how inadequate their guy is and still continue to support him.
They are theto him what Bush's policy is in Iraq. Continued belief in a fantasy in the face of contradictory reality.
In any other country, in any other sane country, Bush could be a viable candidate.
Why here? Why?
The Bill So Far Congress has approved of $151.1 billion for Iraq. Congressional leaders anticipate an additional supplemental appropriation of $60 billion after the election.
(Emphasis mine)
211.1 billion. Freeper fact checkers need to, I don't know, look up some facts first? But I guess that would get in the way of their narrative.
my take: mccain's been promised support in '08. so has giuliani. may ah-nold. the dimwits don't get it that cheney isn't that old (bad ticker and all). and then ol'cheney still hasn't realized jeb is really, really the golden boy bushie.
Bush could NOT be a aviable candidate.
I'm tired, didn't sleep last night. Sorry for the typos.
Now, if Blitzer trips on a curb and breaks his jaw, we'll be getting somewhere.
Would be a real shame if Blitzer had his jaw wired shut for about 3 months, wouldn't it?
straddle fences as far apart with such short little legs
thank you- iced tea from nose to tie
GWPDA --
I'm saying it's possible, sure -- and his odd behavior fits with that diagnosis. Definitely. But he'd have to have been suffering from it for a very long time at this point for it to be the sole answer. However, it is something that could have had its onset very recently as well. Thing is, being the Preznit and all, he's probably monitored for that one up the wazoo, given his family history...
These guys are trying to make this a horse race.
Otherwise, who would watch their drivel?
Now, if Blitzer trips on a curb and breaks his jaw, we'll be getting somewhere.
Jenna and Not-Jenna in:
"The Republican Life"
Where Jenna and her sister are forced to live like the average American worker with substandard education, healthcare and falling wages.
Oh yeah. I like.
Shaw Kenawe - Why here? I'm not sure. I have ideas, but I'm nobody. It's going to take time and some study for someone who is smarter and has better perspective on it due to distance from this period in our history than I do to try to figure that out.
Personally, I think it has to do with the extremist capitalism we've had governing us for quite awhile. Extremist anything is bad, and it's time for some blending. Behemoths are extinct.
Just before the debate, I was flipping through the AM stations and I heard a really weird conversation on KKNT (www.kknt960.com, "the Patriot") that went something like this:
Caller (calm, sane): "Now I'm a conservative, but it's been bothering me over the last few months how all the talk shows have been attacking John Kerry. It's become a real hatefest and--"
Host (indignant): "A hatefest? A HATEFEST? I don't hate John Kerry. I just think he's a whiny, pansy, pathetic loser. I think your problem is __you just hate Bush!__ Next caller!"
Then my brain imploded.
I think it might have been the Mike Gallagher show, anyone else hear this call?
Oh yeah...be sure to check out the debate poll on his website: http://www.mikeonline.com
Bush was winning 72% to 28% last time I checked.
They both sucked:
* No discussion of long-term peace plan for stability in the Middle East,
* No discussion of Israel/Palestine issue,
* No discussion of oil and our energy economy being a factor in the troubles in the Middle East,
* No mention of Latin America, Cuba, or Venezuela. Hell, both candidates are in complete agreement; what else would you expect but silence?
The list could go on and on. The questions asked of the candidates, however, were sanitized to insure that the right-wing political establishment of which both Bush AND Kerry are a part would not be upset and the "debate" as such (gag) was entirely worthless.
CAF? Confederate Air Force?
This evening the pundits on the News Hour really seemed to be tiptoeing around the 'who won' issue. Everyone is embarrassed that Bush is so unimpressive next to the bigger man.
Here it comes! Watch the Democrats call me a "troll" for saying that the debates sucked as they had no substance on the issues they did cover and because they largely ignored real underpinning issues of great urgency in today's foreign policy.
Troll! Troll! Troll! Someone make him drink the Kool-Aid! Our ears hurt! We can't take it! He isn't repeating slogans! He isn't mindlessly repeating "I-hate-Bush" as if it is a mantra and the ultimate meaning of the misguided grassroots support behind Kerry this year! Troll! Troll!
When he said, "Let me finish" - was he talking to the voices in his head?
How the hell could Rove let him go out there unprotected. Kevlar vest, but no Tinfoil hat? Karl, you let yer boy down!
Oh boy, CAF's back! With DC the ring knocker and all the others!
This is so funny! They had to wait 24 hours to get their stories straight!
Monica_CA--
You might like this.
They're RICH, they're SEXY, they're TOTALLY OUT-OF-CONTROL!
what's with that k stone? sometimes i feel like an extra in "the emperor's new clothes".
No Complacency
No Overconfidence
No Backing down
No letting up
No rest until November 3rd,
after John Kerry is elected President.
all you fence sitters, you lurkers out there, who like to watch us here, fight for Kerry and squish the trolls, this is Your time to get up and go to work.
You saw it last night, what Kerry can do.
You saw a man who America needs to be her President now.
A serious President, for serious times.
But we need your help, we need you to get out there and help Kerry win.
He isn't repeating slogans!
They're losing it. Hehe.
This is my response to Cameron's "brilliant" (not) article:
Mr. Cameron:
I read the fake story regarding Sen. Kerry that you potsed today on the Fox News website. I would say it was...interesting. If your ambition is to write for Saturday Night Live or The Daily Show, I suggest you send applications to those programs. As a person who watches both programs, I must advise you that I don't think, on your story's comedy merits, that you will be hired anytime soon.
You might want to audition for the cast of Reno 911, which improvises as they perform. It is a good opportunity to hone one's comedy craft. However, as a viewer of that program, I fear that you wouldn't meet their standards, either.
The standards you and your story emphatically did not meet were those of a professional journalist. Somehow I can't envision your news organization "slipping" and posting a similar story about the current president. It would be considered a singular mark of disrespect for the man and the office. Another major party candidate for that same office should be accorded the same courtesy. The fact that Mr. Kerry himself has a sense of humor and might find it mildly amusing does not excuse your extreme lack of professionalism.
Your juvenile prank has done nothing to enhance the reputation of you yourself nor Fox News.
Ah, I enjoyed that!
Example, in my state [Washington] there was a break-in of the Bush campaign office.
Washington State = Germany
Break-in = Fire
Bush Campaign = Reichstag
Thing is, being the Preznit and all, he's probably monitored for that one up the wazoo, given his family history...
Monica_CA
Can't. Rove's hand is up there.
Also, I'm concerned that Edwards might not be able to sink to Cheney's level in the veep debate. Imagine a sneering Cheney smugly savaging Kerry, and Edwards faux sincerity and smile not rising to the defense adequately. He's polite and non-confrontational, he might very well lose badly if the topics don't easily allow attacks re: Halliburton, SoD history, Ken Lay/Energy Commission, etc.
Not to worry. There's a reason Republicans hate personal injury lawyers... they eat their lunch before a jury.
America is the jury.
These guys are trying to make this a horse race.
Otherwise, who would watch their drivel?
exactly. the right's new meme starting tomorrow could be to pull down your pants immediately when asked a question and just show your ass until the reporter walks away.... and the SCLM would still be dying to make a race out of it. it's shameful watching these bobble heads on today talk down kerry's performance, when everybody with a right mind knows he blew away bush. and for no other reason than they just can't stand to lose the story of a competitive race until election night. it's so damaging to this country and to politics.
Shaw, it has happened here for the same reason it has always happened. There are the discontented or lazy people who want to be told what they want to hear. They're the saps, but they're made to feel powerful, like they're part of the team.
Then there are the people who benefit financially or otherwise, and they are powerful.
Many more in the first group than in the second. Both profess to care about America.
*This* American really doesn't believe America needs either Kerry or Bush. In fact, this American is simply resigned to being forced to accept the "leadership" (gag) of one of two militaristic corporatist Brahmins, in order to insure that Wall Street continues to be backed up by force and in order to keep the operators at the top of both political factions fat and happy.
But hey, this is American politics. What else do we expect but vapidity and retrograde motion with respect to the rest of Western Civilization? There are fortunes at stake, for crying out loud!
Make another barbie doll cry.
So far, about half the show's been devoted to pro-Bush spin / disaster recovery.
-
Here it comes! Watch the Democrats call me a "troll"
somebody needs a validating hug... come here ya little gnomette- and bring the soap...
>Well, batshit...Anonymous at 7:20 was me. Cleared out the cookies.
Anybody here that didn't immediately recognize that as Backslider please turn in your secret Eschaton key.
I should spend half this much time with my wife...
and bring the soap...
Trolldaddy, that's just wrong.
CNN may be hopeless, but Countdown tonite is a virtual Kerry lovefest! Way to go Alex Witt!!
* No discussion of long-term peace plan for stability in the Middle East,
* No discussion of Israel/Palestine issue,
* No discussion of oil and our energy economy being a factor in the troubles in the Middle East,
* No mention of Latin America, Cuba, or Venezuela.
90 seconds times four times two.
I'm sure all these burning issues could have been covered last night.
Are you out of your mind?
You must be a Naderite. Only those people are silly enough to think a debate could actually go into that much detail within the time constraints.
Jenna/Not-Jenna in a reality T.V. show after November.
The new Coors twins.
We can rejoice about the debates all we want, but experts say one thing that may ultimately decide this election is voter turnout. A group of volunteers in Portland, Oregon, is mobilizing “Trick-or-Vote” this Halloween October 31, 2004. Trick-or-Vote is a volunteer drive to secure and celebrate a record level of voter turnout in the city of Portland - and it's spreading nationwide. Join the volunteers in Portland or organize your own Trick-or-Vote in your city: www.trickorvote.org. You may be too old to trick-or-treat, but you're never too old to trick-or-vote!
I don't think we should joke about Bush's daughters. I truly feel for them -- it can't be any picnic to have a father who is an ignorant, narcissistic sociopath -- and to be in the public eye as well.
How truly humiliating it must have been for them to have him joke about putting them on a leash.
I would find it devastating if I had a father like that. I wish them nothing but the best.
Actually, I agree that Lehrer focused too much on Iraq. But (in campaign terms) you won't get a straight answer out of either candidate before the election on Israel-Palestine; nor Cuba; and probably not Latin America either.
I hope that the town-hall debate might focus on these questions more, as long as Gallup's screening doesn't exclude anyone with vaguely foreign interests.
Any chance that Howie Kurtz will get the ombudsman's job?
pie - "These guys are making it a horse race..."
Ding Ding Ding! Complete winner here. These guys are not journalists, these guys are tv entertainers. They are purposely keeping it a horse race for their ratings. But you know what? I seems to me that many more Americans are engaged with the election process this year than in the past. Maybe the whole thing can work together to be a good thing, ultimately.
In the next 2 debates if Kerry pounds the theme that "AMERICA DOESN'T NEED A PRESIDENT WHO GOVERNS IN THE LAND OF MAKE BELIEVE" on economy, jobs, healthcare, education etc. it will be the knockout blow to Bush.
Anyone seen the "Debate Shows Kerry's Strength -- Bush Fails To Deliver Plan For Iraq" advertisements placed at many online news sources?
For what it's worth, my sister is lives in the deep burbs of a Midwestern city, and is pretty much your prototypical "security mom," as those nitwit pollsters define it. To top that off, her husband, no lie, is a NASCAR fanatic. Stay-at-home security mom and NASCAR dad were both wavering a bit, not so keen on Kerry but not dead set against Bush.
She called me today fulminating about what a crap-ass performance Bush turned in. I mean, she was angry that anyone thought she and her husband were so stupid that they'd take Bush's monosyllabic non-answers as some kind of real defense of his policies.
Eat that, Rove.
Norville is doing TDS for the full hour.
Later!
Is Lehrer going to do all the debates?
pie, should that be 90 minutes times four divided by two? Cos otherwise I can't figure out how to make sense of that.
vivian - you're welcome.
"read this link published today. especially the part where al-Qaida discussed being devoured.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6148985/\"
Uh ... he was talking about Muslim countries when he said they would be devoured one by one. NOT al-Qaida. Notice that Bush's invasion plays right into this argument's hands; if you were a moderate Muslim looking at Bush's moves, you would probably find it very easy to believe that Muslim countries will be devoured one by one. Zawahiri is playing on this in making his argument.
Luntz conceded the debate to Kerry after the 1st 15 minutes! from Bloomberg.com:
Kerry Won Debate, Instant Polls and Focus Group Find (Update5)
Oct. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Democratic challenger John Kerry beat President George W. Bush in their first debate, according to three instant surveys and undecided voters in a focus group run by Republican pollster Frank Luntz.
Instant polls by the Gallup Organization, ABC News and CBS News found Kerry ahead by as much as 16 percentage points on the question of who won the debate. Five of the 18 voters in the focus group said they moved from undecided to supporting Kerry, Luntz said in a press release. None switched to Bush.
....
``This was the first time in this campaign that Kerry stood side by side with Bush, and he looked presidential,'' Luntz said. Swing voters ``think he dominated the confrontation.''
Luntz, who helped former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Republicans gain control of Congress in 1994, said 16 of the 18 voters in his group considered Kerry the winner. Thirteen said they ``agreed'' more with Kerry than his Republican opponent.
Scoring Points
Luntz measured the reactions of his focus group by having them use computerized dials to indicate their reactions at any moment in the debate and later summarize their thoughts.
Kerry, 60, a four-term Massachusetts senator, scored with statements such as ``the future belongs to freedom, not fear,'' Luntz said. Bush, 58, lost ground each time he referred to the presidency as ``hard work'' and voters described the expression on Bush's face as ``arrogant'' and ``pissed off'' at times when he was listening to Kerry answer a question.
``Even though the swing voters wanted more information, Bush had already lost the debate after just the first 15 minutes,'' Luntz said. ``Kerry started relatively strong and only grew stronger as the debate progressed.''
Meme that we really need to spread:
It is now obvious that Bush cannot function coherently without a script. Ergo, he is unfit for the office.
Perhaps wait until after the next debate.
(Possible expectations management before next debate: "Bush has never ever lost a debate. I mean, not until the utter ass whuppin' he suffered on 30 September." Or something like that.)
1) Don't tell me that "security mom" has been picked up by the media...I thought that was a Malkin-brainfart.
2) I like NASCAR - Formula 1 racing, too. Doesn't (and never will) make me a rethug.
I think most people that love thier kids, and may like motorsports, and have mild complexes about not fitting in, have been fed this line about being chimp supporters, and bought it for group identification purposes - until they saw how dumb the chimperor really is.
Yes, the media is finally starting to alienate themselves from even the "security moms"...
KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE!!!
I cant believe I am saying this,but I agree totally with CAF tonite.
Our democracy *has* been hijacked by the two party system.No hope exists in our present state of getting away from it.And the militaristic views of both candidates are problematic.
And the fact that no Isrealli- palestinian questions kind of underscores this little fact.
I sure would like to hear Kerry's position on I/P conflict.
Is Margaret Carlson retahded? She's supposed to be liberal or left leaning?
She's on MSNBC right now and pissing me off.
Ugh.
.
I sure would like to hear Kerry's position on I/P conflict.
Go to his website. It's not very encouraging.
I sent an e-mail to the Seattle reporter re the Bush office break-in. Kept it friendly; said I'd run across the article online and read it because I have a sister in the area (true).
I suggested that perhaps those particulare computers were taken because they were in the office that had the window, and that if the campaign honchos didn't hog the nice office with the view, their computers wouldn't have been the ones taken.
Also noted how it was odd that the Repubs were sure the Dems had done it, and said that they must have pulled the Kerry/Edwards sticker off the rock before it was photographed.
Hope he'll get a chuckle out of both comments, and that they'll help add a reasonable perspective to any follow-up article he does.
smalfish -
Tell you what, amigo. I'd like to hear Kerry's position on the Isreaili-Palestinian question, too....after he is elected.
It's like the old saying - any harbor in a storm. This country can't take another 4 more years of dimwit-Bush; if it takes electing a guy whose Isreali/Palestinian policy I'm unfamiliar with to do it, then that's fine by me.
KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE
P.S. Yes, American Democracy has been hijacked by a repressive two-party system - happenned many years ago. You just figure this out?
pie, should that be 90 minutes times four divided by two?
No, they each had 90 seconds to answer a question, correct? 4 issues that CAF listed. 2 candidates.
I'd like to hear Kerry's position on the Isreaili-Palestinian question, too....after he is elected.
Agreed!
Damn. And liberals got Luntz kicked off of MSNBC, where his views might have received more coverage. A little ironic, eh?
So this means Bush will be taking the full facial botox treatment at the next debate?
And the fact that no Isrealli- palestinian questions kind of underscores this little fact.
Bush is the first president in a long time that hasn't even begun to spend time on this issue. What a surprise. He's handled it alike any other issue, including postwar planning for Iraq.
Don't even bring up the flowery sounding *Roadmap for Peace*.
Bush's inaction has made a bad situation worse.
Right on Tena. This is a horse/donkey race. Not to disrespect the donkey in any way. Just once though it would be refreshing to have the media build up the best man, instead of trying to tear him down.
Los Angeles liberals who want to talk politics and get drunk are invited to the 4100 bar in silverlake tonight and engage the young looking kid in the black jacket sitting by himself at the bar.
And liberals got Luntz kicked off of MSNBC
According to CBS,Terry Mac sent out an email to get us to respond to the polls and it worked.What else has he been doing that is not being credited to him and Kerry?
To me it does seem as if a sea change is occuring.How and exactly what I cannot say,but something *is* happening.
So far I like the results.
Thanks, smalfish. I was afraid that inter-niecene(sp?) warfare was already breaking out on news of the first big victory.
The posters who say it, tell the truth: This is no time for complacency.
KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE!!
P.S. smalfish is right about having only 2 parties being sucky.
And liberals got Luntz kicked off of MSNBC, where his views might have received more coverage. A little ironic, eh?
Are you saying he would have delivered the same report had he been on teevee, based on past performance?
Right.
bush has morphed into joe lieberman!!! sqiurrelly fidgety little old man
look out jfk
you are up against JOEMENTUM
Folks should vote for Kerry in this online Time magazine poll. Unlike most others, Bush is currently leading in this one. http://www.time.com/time/electio...00.html?
cnn=yes
I'd like to hear Kerry's position on the Isreaili-Palestinian question, too....after he is elected.
Interestingly enough, the Israelis prefer Bush.
Israeli Jews overwhelmingly want US President George W. Bush to beat his Democrat challenger John Kerry in the US presidential election on November 2, according to an opinion poll.
A total of 49 percent of people questioned said they preferred Bush, with just 18 percent wanting Kerry to win.
Listening to McCain on Hannity...
Man, has McCain chugged too much koolaid or what?
These Rethugs keep repeating that president was "very clear" last night. Maybe they didn't hear the debate last night because Bush stammered more than Jon the Stutterer.
It must be hard to sit there and call a duck a rhino.
pie-
Ah yes, the ROADMAP! Hmm....I think it wound up in some mid-level White-House staffer's inbox along with the other 4 or 5 speeches chimpy was going to give us on how he was making Iraq a great place last May.
Like grandaddy says (and maybe Kerry should say): Integrety is saying what you mean and meaning what you say!
Why is anyone even thinking about voting for this loser?
KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE!!
While there was no mention of Israel/Palestine and other issues in the foreign policy debates can there be any doubt that Bush will continue to ignore Democrats' concerns over the next four years? I am sure Kerry can work with Republicans and Democrats. If we don't take the House and Senate he will definitely have to work with Republicans. If Bush steals the election again or wins then we can expect him and DeLay to run roughshod over most Americans for years to come.
SWR -
Interestingly enough, 49% does not mean that Isreali jews overwhelmingly want Bush to win.
It means a minority of "people questioned" (and you didn't say anything about those people being Isreali or Jewish) favored Bush - a majority did not want him to win.
SWR -
P.S. KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE!!
Roadmap for peace = Roadkill in pieces.
Interestingly enough, 49% does not mean that Isreali jews overwhelmingly want Bush to win.
Not my quote but I get your point.
But compare Israeli to any country in Western Europe or Canada.
The Israelis are the only friends Bush has outside of the USA.
Of course this says absolutely nothing about how Kerry would handle the Israeli Palestian (Civil War? Conflict? Occupation? Terrorism Problem? Insert your term here....).
Both of them mentioned Israel during the debates. Needless to say, neither mentioned the Palestinians.
That being said, I think Kerry would probably be a bit more likely to pressure the Israelis on the settlements and the security barrier. Kerry's obviously quite pro-Israel but there are people in the Democratic party who are slightly to his left and might be a better influence on American policy then Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, etc.
thirty days until the eviction!
-J.T.
There's a funny quote in the article at that link for the Time poll.
A Bush adviser put it bluntly: "We are on defense. We were counting on Kerry being Kerry and he came to play. We didn't expect that."
Kerry being Kerry? Do they mean that they believed he would be like the imaginary Kerry they invented for media consumption?
smalfish:
If you want Kerry's positions on Israel/Palestine, then go to his website. He very clearly (last I checked, before Edwards got picked) formally endorses Bush's plan.
Neither of those two is ever going to talk about any real issues unless he is forced to talk about real issues. You want to talk about working towards stability in the Middle East? Well, your debate is a joke unless it covers Israel/Palestine for starters.
Roadmap for peace = Roadkill in pieces.
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 10.01.04 - 9:45 pm | #
I used to be one of those people who believed that the Republicans were no worse than the Democrats on the I/P conflict, that the right would be just as likely to be evenhanded between both sides than the (well not left, maybe center right) Democrats.
That was obviously a pretty stupid assumption on my part. I'd rather have Clinton back.
NO the Israelis do not prefer Bush. They prefer someone who is killing more Arabs.
Neither of those two is ever going to talk about any real issues unless he is forced to talk about real issues. You want to talk about working towards stability in the Middle East? Well, your debate is a joke unless it covers Israel/Palestine for starters.
Who would be more open to grass roots pressure (from the pro-Israel or anti-Israeli side), Kerry or Bush?
Who would be more likely to put hard core pro-Israel ideologues in power?
Kerry's obviously the better choice, whatever they say at Counterpunch.
"I don't think we should joke about Bush's daughters. I truly feel for them -- it can't be any picnic to have a father who is an ignorant, narcissistic sociopath -- and to be in the public eye as well.
How truly humiliating it must have been for them to have him joke about putting them on a leash.
I would find it devastating if I had a father like that. I wish them nothing but the best."
"starhopping"
*******************************
Starhopping: Fuck those girls. They stood up on the stage at the convention and said what a great person Dad is and they've been touring the country for him. Why should we feel sorry for them? They're adults and should be able to decide for themselves whether or not to campaign for Daddy. Sure, they have a loser for a father and a robot for a mother but they have more than most people. I do not feel any sorrow for them. They have wasted any opportunities given them as they so expressed at the convention. We're looking for something to do for the next four years, just like Dad. How about signing on for duty in Iraq?
They stood up on the stage at the convention and said what a great person Dad is and they've been touring the country for him. Why should we feel sorry for them? They're adults and should be able to decide for themselves whether or not to campaign for Daddy.
Hell, if Bush were my father, I wouldn't want to be disinherited either. I'd be up on that podium stumping for the man myself.
Who would be more likely to put hard core pro-Israel ideologues in power?
Who is more beholden to insane fundamentalist end-timers who are cheering on Israel because they have a hardon for the Apocalypse?
Tucker, you gotta fuck an old man like Novak gently in the ass.
Neither of those two is ever going to talk about any real issues unless he is forced to talk about real issues. You want to talk about working towards stability in the Middle East? Well, your debate is a joke unless it covers Israel/Palestine for starters.
I could'nt agree more.
When Kerry gets elected,hopefully the true democrats will get Kerry moving in the correct direction and get the two parties intresrted in peace again.
SWR -
The I/P conflict is definitely one that deserves strong leadership, and I haven't seen a U.S. President willing to take that kind of leadership since Carter. You might say Clinton undertook the leadership, but Arafat kneecapped him...I don't know about all that.
I do know that I agree with you that Kerry is more likely to pressure Isreal than a Chimp-in-a-nest-o'-neocons (and armageddonists). I also know that I trust Kerry more to do the right thing by America than I do Bush.
Sorry I confused the quote...must have been the italics.
KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE!!
Hell, if Bush were my father, I wouldn't want to be disinherited either. I'd be up on that podium stumping for the man myself.
And then I'd get really, really drunk afterwards too...
CAF- I agree both parties are lousy on the Israel/Palestine issue. But that's not going to get fixed in this election. Right now we just need someone who will stop digging us deeper in the hole in Iraq. And not sell more bunker busters to Israel so they can start a war with Iran, while US troops in Iraq are caught in the middle.
smalfish -
what did your wife say about the debates?
*
smalfish:
I hope for everyone's sake you get what you want. I am quite skeptical that Kerry will do anything about Israel/Palestine that Bush or Clinton did not do. They're all playing the same game. And if you don't believe me, go dig up the archived footage of Kerry standing on the same stage as Santorum last year promising undying allegiance to the Likud goverment in front of AIPAC at a conference that organization held.
The I/P conflict is definitely one that deserves strong leadership, and I haven't seen a U.S. President willing to take that kind of leadership since Carter. You might say Clinton undertook the leadership, but Arafat kneecapped him...I don't know about all that.
Bush has already failed miserably. Kerry may fail.
So what do you prefer?
A hard core idealogue and a proven failure?
Or a moderate pro-Israel pragmatist who hasn't failed just yet?
I'm willing to walk up to the mound and take the ball away from Bush, even if Kerry isn't a proven winner.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, but all the Arab countries treat it like a splinter in the eye. The Bush administration neocons are theoretically pro-Israel but they're not really doing that country any favors by stirring up anti-Western hatred to new heights.
treatortreat the vote looks like a lot of fun, and would give me an excuse to get some blinky light pins of r/w/b pins in the shape of a donkey or the USA I saw on a schwag site while trying to find a promo item to give away at our annual convention.....
hmmmm.... must read further.....
Hecate, this a natural for those of us who might have taken offense when Bush said he didn't think Paganism was a religion and shouldn't be allowed to?
Kerry being Kerry? Do they mean that they believed he would be like the imaginary Kerry they invented for media consumption?
Karin | Email | Homepage | 10.01.04 - 9:48 pm | #
Nailed it.
Karin:
Both candidates promised in the "debate" to "win" in Iraq, which is identical to the campaign debate that took place before Vietnam escalated into a real mess. They will both dig us deeper into the hole. Furthermore, both candidates will happily continue to, despite the questionable legality, given Israel's human rights record, furnish all manner of non-strategic weaponry to the Likud government.
And then I'd get really, really drunk afterwards too...
NYMary | Email | Homepage | 10.01.04 - 9:56 pm | #
I think Jenna probably has that one under control.
But I honestly don't care about Bush's daughters one way or another.
I'm sympathetic to them in some ways. How would you like Barbara Bush as your grandmother?
And I'm contemptuous of them in some ways. How much opportunity are they squandering?
But they're a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
what did your wife say about the debates?
Ummm,things have taken a decidedly negative turn around here.
SWR:
What is it about Kerry's public record - votes, actions, statements - over the last 20 years that leads you to conclude that, on Israel/Palestine, Kerry is anything other than a hardcore ideologue and a part of the same larger proven failure that Bush is part of?
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, but all the Arab countries treat it like a splinter in the eye. The Bush administration neocons are theoretically pro-Israel but they're not really doing that country any favors by stirring up anti-Western hatred to new heights.
Let's just say that Bush isn't exactly as good a friend to the Israelis as people think.
If you're friend were acting like a drunken asshole at a party, would you let him have the keys to your Hummer?
Or would you tell him to chill out and call him a cab.
Bush = Enabler
FOUR MORE YEARS OF WHAT?
>>>READ IT AT DAILYBLURB.BLOGSPOT.COM
What is it about Kerry's public record - votes, actions, statements - over the last 20 years that leads you to conclude that, on Israel/Palestine,
I htink the answer to that is the fact that Kerry *might* be more openminded to new ideas and actually,you know, act on them.
What is it about Kerry's public record - votes, actions, statements - over the last 20 years that leads you to conclude that, on Israel/Palestine, Kerry is anything other than a hardcore ideologue and a part of the same larger proven failure that Bush is part of?
Nothing. He's an unknown quantity.
But I trust Richard Holbrooke and Clinton a bit more than I trust Feith and Richard Perle.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Kerry will play LBJ to Bush's Goldwater, but that doesn't mean even with the perspective of history, I still wouldn't have voted for LBJ over Goldwater.
What I fear is that as the days pass, people's memories of what they saw and heard -- will be supplanted by what the RWM / RNC tells them they saw and heard.
Andrea Mitchell made that point on Hardball, essentially saying we couldn't rely on the internet polls right after debates. Wait a few days and people realize their initial perceptions were wrong. Duhb did really speak from the heart, or some crap. Sounded to me like she was making an excuse for what happened to Gore in 2000. Tweety agreed they should wait a few days. Then they'll spin it for Bush, it looks like.
Did anyone read the Narnia stories when they were a kid? Doesn't Bush remind you of the donkey (Puzzle?) that got sewn into a lion skin and got passed off as Aslan? From what Bush has said, he really is starting to think he is the Almighty Whatever. Unfortunately in the debates last night, a real lion showed up (if not exactly the Almighty Whatever).
Um, actually the Palistinan athority is democratic.
Sharon Bush and Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) on 20/20 starting now (east)
Do all states have voter egistration deadlines ONE MONTH before the election? This seems like another form of voter disenfranchisement.
And I'm contemptuous of them in some ways. How much opportunity are they squandering?
It probaby doesn't matter; look at what their dad squandered. They have a whole army of little helpers to clean up after them, in every possible sense.
A non-issue, yes, except insofar as they provide a certain basic insight into the real nature of the Bushes as a tribe.
registration
Did anyone read the Narnia stories when they were a kid?
I loved those stories.Passing them on has been a joy.
The Daily Show? Al Franken? Scarborough humble? Have aliens taken over MSNBC?
Um, actually the Palistinan athority is democratic.
Yeah. They have elections. But they also execute collaborators and Arafat steals from his own people.
I think an obvious first step to weakening Hamas would be to find some way to funnel aid to the Palestinians around the PA. Make sure some of it actually gets to people on the street so those 16 year old kids won't have to turn to the mosques or offer themselves up as sacrifices for that 20,000 bucks.
I think people underestimate the influence that sheer poverty plays in creating terrorists there.
CAF-
Your argument applies equally to domestic issues like Social Security reform, education, gun control, electoral reform, etc...
Yes, it is true that most politicians won't stick their neck out and do something right until forced to. That goes for Pres., Congress, state legs., govenors, mayors, aldermen, PTO presidents, and if you know anything about the legal system, then you know that it's based on the principle that NOTHING gets changed unless it ABSOLUTELY has to change.
So what does thinking that Kerry won't act better on I/P (although I think he will) than Chimpy will have to do with the price of tea in China? Or who gets my vote?
I'm sorry you're disaffected by the two-party system, we all are. Live with it. Unless you're advocating a third-party candidate, or something else...Are you advocating a third party candidate or something else?
Let's hear what you support since our man has failed you!
KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE!!
God almighty. they've gotten worse. Prior to Edwards, the Kerry site had a policy on Israel/Palestine: Kerry formally endorsed Bush's plan in literal words.
Now, they don't even a policy on it. Either there is no point in bringing up Israel as Kerry agrees with Bush completely, or they are evading the topic completely for some other reasons.
Ridiculous. They don't even have a formal policy on Israel/Palestine that they are announcing!
That is not, in my opinion, "leadership".
Scarborough is ripping Bush a new one.
"embarassing" "like a highschool jock forced into debate class by his parents"
'doesnt have a long enough attention span to explain his positions for 90 minutes"
holy jumping MSNBC...
State by state voter registration deadlines.
Let's laugh a bit and watch 20/20 now, Bush gossip!
Wha?:
You say you feel involved in the politics of today, and you are willing to expend hours watching and discussing an alleged "debate" on foreign policy issues facing America, which is centered on war and strife in the Middle East, and you also say that Kerry's position on Israel is irrelevant to you in terms of who you side with?
Are you new to foreign policy discussions?
Yes, we should wait a few days. When the evildoers attack, things like debates and New England patricians and elections will become irrelevant. Straight to the heart, shoot from the hip, plain talking and steadfast love of America will return. You liberals will be swinging from lampposts for your treachery.
Aaah, why do bad things always happen to... bad people?
Robert Novak Breaks Hip
By Staff -- Broadcasting & Cable, 10/1/2004 4:31:00 PM
Just when it’s getting fun, Robert Novak, 73, the veteran columnist and one of the hosts of CNN’s Crossfire is going to be hobbling.
Early Friday morning, the day after the first presidential debate in Coral Gables, Fla., Novak slipped in in his Miami hotel room shower and broke his hip, a source told B&C. Novak and his Crossfire counterpart Paul Begala were in Florida to fire at each other for Thursday's show and to help with CNN's coverage of the debate.
The source said Novak will require a partial hip replacement, but had no estimate of how long that will keep him off the campaign trail, or at least trailing far behind it.
But the source also reported that Novak was busily editing his column on the laptop computer in his hospital room.
Security moms:
It's not a real thing. The polls found that the women who are supposed to be in this demographic are no more likely to cite security as a concern than anyone else. It's probably something the wingnuts have made up, as the group it creates is essentially just Republican white married women. Not a swing voter group going for Bush. And if there was any swinging towards Bush, it was equal in men and women.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that this is a wingnut meme.
Now, they don't even a policy on it. Either there is no point in bringing up Israel as Kerry agrees with Bush completely, or they are evading the topic completely for some other reasons.
What do you want them to do, put a gun to their heads and blow their political brains out?
The I/P issue is a long term problem. Even if Kerry did move hard to the left on the issue, it wouldn't do much to solve anything.
I don't like the Israelis, but do you honestly think we can trust the Palestinians?
The best thing for that whole mess right now would be simply to maintain some type of cease fire for as long as possible, whatever else happens.
If somebody's lying on the ground convulsing, do you lecture him about his diet and exericise program?
The source said Novak will require a partial hip replacement, but had no estimate of how long that will keep him off the campaign trail, or at least trailing far behind it.
there is a god!
Anonymous
Would you be the dreaded Osamabinlazy,I heard so much about?
SWR:
Syria was a democracy in the Middle East until the US toppled it. Some people think that the reasons behind the strife and war in the Middle East, as well as the hatred of America so widespread there, has to do with the American government's history over the last 50 years, regardless of whether a "R" or a "D" is President, of supporting bloody, autocratic, and repressive regimes.
Care to comment on this history, and how it is that either candidate's policy proposals this year reflects a clean break with the past?
Let's laugh a bit and watch 20/20 now, Bush gossip!
Hope I can stay awake for it here on the Left Coast. Must. Drink. Coffee. Now.
Or maybe I'll call the babysitter and go drink in Silverlake....
SWR:
They won't even talk about it, despite the widespread understanding that Israel-Palestine is the most visible of the issues underpinning instability and anti-Americanism in the Middle East. Why do you let them off the hook?
History takes longer than 4 years. I choose to keep my eye on the ball.
I really feel like Kerry came through for us. He wasn't my first choice (Wesley Clark), or even my second (Now the Veep candidate), but when it became clear he was going to be the candidate, I donated more than ten times as much to his campaign as I've ever donated to any candidate-- well over $1k. I felt like, okay, I'll support you, but don't let us down. And he didn't. Kerry was great last night. He deserves to be the candidate, and even if he doesn't win, I'll believe he earned my support.
Sharon Bush on ABC right now. (CST)
Another "elephant in the living room" that no one talks about is that the only people speaking the truth these days in the major media are cartoonists and commedians. The only way truth can be spoken is if it is turned into a joke. Reality must be sugarcoated with humor.
When the evildoers attack, things like debates and New England patricians and elections will become irrelevant.
Eh? This country was founded by patricians who liked to debate.
Google "Jefferson" or "Washington" and see what you get.
Neil is getting cruxified!
Bush last night insisted that the troops we have there are sufficient...
Why then is he dragging thousands and thousands of ex-military IRR people back in to be shipped off, both this year and next?
Just wondering.
Echidne's right about "Security Moms." It's wingnut bullshit.
SWR: Kerry is not an unknown quantity on Israel/Palestine. Quite the opposite is true. He has been as big a fan of Likud as Joe Lieberman, forever and a day more.
Syria was a democracy in the Middle East until the US toppled it.
Syria was a province of the Ottoman Empire then a French and British protectorate until it become a Baathist dictatorship.
You might be talking about the US sponsored coup in Iran.
Seriously, if you aren't watching 20/20, turn it on now. Some great Neil Bush stuff.
you also say that Kerry's position on Israel is irrelevant to you in terms of who you side with?
And who do you "side with"? The Tooth Fairy? The status quo serves the interests of the current administration and the Israeli government. Some change in that complicit arrangement must occur before there is even the hope of moving forward into a different I/P alignment. Kerry at least opens the possibility for a conversation which otherwise will never happen for another four years.
Barbara is the queen bitch and there's actually somebody worse than W! Neil's job description according to his ex: influence peddler! Juicy!
CAF -
First of all, I didn't say any of those things, don't put words into my keyboard unless you want a fight.
Second, yes, in light of the many failings of that idiot parading around as president of my country, the I/P issue is of secondary, tertiary, even minimal importance to me.
I want a strong America first. I want John Kerry to be President of the United States of America.
KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE!!
Hint: Don't search Google Images for "Novak" while a young child is looking over your shoulder.
Damn. And liberals got Luntz kicked off of MSNBC, where his views might have received more coverage. A little ironic, eh?
Would he have come up with the same results had he been retained by MSNBC, though?
According to CBS,Terry Mac sent out an email to get us to respond to the polls and it worked.?
And Tucker made it a big issue, as if Freepers hadn't been doing this for years. Trippi seemed to get it right when he called it indicative of enthusiasm rather than opinion.
But it's funny to see the Freepers flailing here, deleting cookies and trying to change IP addresses, and claiming small victories when they freep a poll on some random guy's blog. Sorry: that's your own tactic used against you, fuckers. Jujitsu at work.
the hatred of America so widespread there, has to do with the American government's history over the last 50 years,
Again,I agree.America's foreign policy has been so out of touch oof what real people want it makes me sick.The only reason people like our latest troll here have reason to agree with it is bcause the policies of our government has been shoved down our throat wihout even a hint of asking what it should be.We (they) may think we (they) have had some say in it,but the reality on the ground is we vote mostly by soundbytes and pocketbooks,accepting our nations foreign policy as an aside,not really understandiing the long term implications.
I for one am tired of having what our nation does,done in my name.I tire of not having any say in it.I will vote for Kerry ,what that means is I have to follow his rules on all policies reguardless of weather I like them.
Unfortunately,there is no alternative.Untill someone of the intellect of an Enstien or a Adams and Jefferson come along the whole world is forced bby the very same rules due to our leverage over forign affairs.
Flame at will cap'n
Neil Bush is a fucking weasel.
(No disrespect intended towards any member of the mustelid family.)
SWR: Kerry is not an unknown quantity on Israel/Palestine. Quite the opposite is true. He has been as big a fan of Likud as Joe Lieberman, forever and a day more.
OK. You've convinced me. I'll vote for Nader. That will do the Palestians a lot of good, won't it?
Every major step towards a resolution of the conflict has been taken under Democrats.
Reagan gave Sharon the green light to invade Lebanon. Carter and Clinton at least tried.
I'll go with the party with the better track record.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East,
Stop parroting this AIPAC talking point. It is only a democracy in the sense that apartheid South Africa was a democracy. Plus, they have an official state religion. Anyone who is not a member of that religion is a second class citizen or a non-citizen.
I have heard the phrase security mom... wish I could remember where...
I hate it when people are boiled down to two-word descriptions!!
OK. You've convinced me. I'll vote for Nader. That will do the Palestians a lot of good, won't it?
Heh. Just pictured Nader swooping into Gaza wearing his cape, ready to set things right.
And who do you "side with"? The Tooth Fairy? The status quo serves the interests of the current administration and the Israeli government.
You have to side with the Israelis in some ways if you're president. You defend your allies, however they may act at certain times.
We're talking about tiny increments of better or worse here, not huge differences.
And Kerry's a tiny bit better. Even you wouldn't argue with that.
And what would happen tomorrow, if an American president puts on a Kaffiyeh, adorns the Oval office with a portrait of Rachel Corrie, and starts going to Answer rallies?
Think that will solve anything?
It would be the geopolitical equivalent of paying off the kidnappers of those Italian women. That's the great delusion of a lot of people on the left (and right).
We're not going to become suddenly popular in the Arab world if we suddently turn against the Israelis. It's not going to solve all of our problems in the Middle East.
Get real.
update,,,,,
Kerry still winning Debate 24 hrs later.
BushCo unable to spin Monkey back up into tree,,,,,,
It's an amazing thing about trolls- they're inevitably cowards. I remember when all the "terror in the skys" BS was going down, and I would go to Malkin's site, and there would be posters from the left all over the place, calling Malkin and all her sycophants on thier bullshit.
Here, the little turds pretend to be 'neutral' but attack Kerry (or sometimes attack both candidates, knowing full well that the only attack that matters on a pro-Kerry site is the one against Kerry).
Cowards...C'mon CAF!!!!!!!! I'm talking to you!!!We're waiting!!!
Simple english for a simple mind:
WHO ARE YOU VOTING FOR?
Bush told supporters in Allentown, Pa. "Listen, I'll continue to work with our allies and the international community, but I will never submit America's national security to an international test."
Except regarding North Korea. I trust China to do what's best for America.-GWB
You have to side with the Israelis in some ways if you're president. You defend your allies, however they may act at certain times.
(Politely) You mistook my post for the troll's.
Caf is a gentle Naderite.He is looking for a reason to part with that vote and do the right thing.Lets cut him some slack for now.
(Politely) You mistook my post for the troll's.
No. I was using your post to address him.
I just get exasperated sometimes at this far left delusion that if we start denouncing the Israelis, poof, our problems in the Middle East go away.
I'd like to see us be more 'even handed' in the Middle East, but it's not a panacea.
I noticed at LGF they are confused about Kerry's plans to secure loose nuke material in the former Soviet Union.
They actually think Kerry plans to confiscate Russia's nuclear weapons! They are wondering how Kerry will be able to do that!
They have no reading comprehension whatsoever- just like their failed leader.
Beinart:
This column should not be necessary. A more
decent president would not accuse his
opponent of assisting terrorists and harming
American troops merely because he criticizes
U.S. policy. A more decent conservative
movement would call such accusations
anti-democratic, rather than mindlessly
parroting them, as National Review Online's
Jed Babbin did this week. But the president
is who he is. And so are his supporters. And
so, in response to John Kerry's increased
criticism of U.S. policy in Iraq, Bush and
his surrogates have essentially accused
Democrats of helping insurgents kill American
troops.
Interesting piece just finished on 20/20 with Sharon Bush... some rather unflattering stuff about Neil. They're on a bit with Cat Stevens now, showed the Daily Show clip about him: "A real victory in the war on terror today. They finally got the guy who wrote Peace Train.". He'd apparently heard and liked it.
It's fascinating how prevalent TDS is these days, isn't it? The 'journalists' know who's got them beat.
smalfish:
I certainly hope that what you envision for the future is what we all get, regardless of the details. I can see that you genuinely want the best. I disagree with you on what is likely given the reality of the American political establishment. The Kerry candidacy this year, taken as a response to the over-the-top rightwing character of the Bush administration, engenders in me not hope, but fear.
Wha?: the tenor of your tone towards me convinces me that I don't feel like talking to you, even if this means you are going to call me a "coward" again. I don't think we are likely to have productive communication, sorry.
Hey Kelmac, that assembly was sliding pretty close to what's specifically forbidden in Catholic parishes and such. The bishops committee of the US has a detailed document detailing what political activity may and may not go on -- there's a great big hairy tax exemption at stake here. (I'm a peon who works for another diocese and I've had reason to examine this document closely. F'r instance, I have the right to have a Kerry sticker on my own personal car. A church-owned car may bear no political stickers at all.)
I put it in the Homepage link.
There's a lot more on that site. Read the "Faithful Citizenship" thing. They have a booklet that goes with it. Yeah, they pound on the anti-abortion thing, but the church is also against the death penalty, against war, against oppressing the poor and the powerless.
Sounds like the rich folks at your son's school didn't absorb everything the good sisters were trying to teach them.
I noticed at LGF they are confused about Kerry's plans to secure loose nuke material in the former Soviet Union.
They actually think Kerry plans to confiscate Russia's nuclear weapons! They are wondering how Kerry will be able to do that!
They have no reading comprehension whatsoever- just like their failed leader.
I checked them out last night during the debate and they seemed to think Kerry would give the Iranians nukes.
It's called mental illness. Smile and back away from them slowly.
CAF:
I actually called trolls cowards, but you fit the bill pretty well.
CAT STEVENS IS COMING HOME TO MUSIC! WILL HAVE A NEW ALBUM.
Interesting piece just finished on 20/20 with Sharon Bush...
ha,ha, that reminds me, I was in my local warehouse club, checking the book section today. I noticed Kitty Kelly's book was down around knee level while some other books by the likes of Karen Hughes and Laura Schlessinger were prominently displayed at eye level. Needless to say, I had to rearrange their display.
The Kerry candidacy this year, taken as a response to the over-the-top rightwing character of the Bush administration, engenders in me not hope, but fear.
Why are you voting on only one issue. Yeah, Kerry sucks on the I/P conflict but why let that make you throw your vote way?
Don't you have to make hard choices sometimes.
Johnson vs. Goldwater
Both give us Vietnam but Johnson also gives us the Voting Rights act.
Sure I'd like a better candidate than Kerry. I'd also like to have free run of the Playboy mansion and a private jet.
SWR: I don't know about any "far left delusions" about "denouncing Israel" being a "panacea" of any sort, but I certainly do see clearly that the American political establishment, including the entirety of the Democratic Party, in the language you choose, would be operating under "far right delusions" or worse.
I think that part of your problem is that you have never been confronted by a candidate who actually had a sane policy proposal on Israel/Palestine or a path towards reducing strife in the Middle East. The current "far left delusion" as you put it includes backing the (large) peace movement in Israel, which is opposed to hard-right, religious fundamentalist, ultra-militaristic, human-rights-violating and outright bloodthirsty Likud government that Kerry and Bush both embrace as fellow travelers through the Middle East.
"Delusion"? You mean, working on change in Israel? If it's "mainstream" to topple entire governments in the Middle East by invasion or CIA operation, then how is it "far left" or some kind of "delusion" that it is ok to work with an opposition party in Israel?
See? You've just never been confronted with a candidate that did'nt have a policy proposal produced by operatives in AIPAC. That's *your* problem.
I think the GOP needs to put aWol on a leash.
chica toxica (from another thread)
Calling Dick Morris!
Anyone who would vote against their best judgement based on being insulted by the high spirited band of posters on this blog is either being insincere about their conversion or damned stupid.
For crying out loud, this is a pretty lively place. You feel that fragile you'd better find another venue for your opinions.
SWR: i am not voting on only one issue, or even close. I am talking about Israel/Palestine right here, on this web site, right now. There is a difference.
CAF= Toby Putzhold.
I'd also like to have free run of the Playboy mansion and a private jet.
I'll second that notion.
And go one better.Topless beaches,in America.
Needless to say, I had to rearrange their display.
Occasionally, I work part time at a bookstore without pay.
It's my civic duty.
The John Stossel segment is up on 20/20.
Delusion"? You mean, working on change in Israel? If it's "mainstream" to topple entire governments in the Middle East by invasion or CIA operation, then how is it "far left" or some kind of "delusion" that it is ok to work with an opposition party in Israel?
I was talking quite specifically about your assertion that no progress at all in the Middle East can be made unless we swing hard left on the I/P issue.
The current "far left delusion" as you put it includes backing the (large) peace movement in Israel, which is opposed to hard-right, religious fundamentalist, ultra-militaristic, human-rights-violating and outright bloodthirsty Likud government that Kerry and Bush both embrace as fellow travelers through the Middle East.
And I probably agree with them. But do you really, honestly think Kerry will be as closely aligned with Sharon as Bush? Even the slight bit of an unknown quality that Kerry has will give more pause to Sharon than Bush.
Learn to make hard choices. Don't just throw your hands up like a baby when you don't get exactly what you want.
One of the things that's always put me off about the more far-left political groups in America has been the tendancy of so many to be wildly anti-Israel. You can call me names if you like, but I do feel that Israel has a right to its existence.
The Likud party, though, those evil fuckers wouldn't give a shit if they start WWIII (or is Iraq WWIII? You know, with all those nations like Poland standing behind us in a mighty coalition), and I honestly think they would be happy if they could see all the Palestinians dead, if that's what it took to kick them out.
Sure I'd like a better candidate than Kerry. I'd also like to have free run of the Playboy mansion and a private jet.
Or, conflating what Michael Moore and Al Sharpton said, I'll take the friggin' Pontiac and ride it as far as it will take me.
Just finished watching McLaughlin Group. Stunning, simply stunning. Even the nattily attired (if circumferentially-challenged) Washington Times shill Tony Blankley begrudglingly acknowledged a clear Kerry victory in the debate. Pat Buchanan has been consistently clear that Bush stunk up the place. And McLaughlin himself has been practically going out of his way to try to counter the RNC talking point spin, for reasons known only to himself. And even Eleanor Clift managed to hold her own with the loudmouth guys without lapsing into shrillness.
But the pleasantly jaw-dropping surprise was Laurence O'Donnell. I've seen him hack it up with the best of them, but tonight he was on fire. He was so adamant in his defense of Kerry that he managed to browbeat both Blankley and Buchanan (love that alliteration!) while maintaining his poise. Seeing him call bullshit on the feeble attempts at post-debate spin from the RNC proxies was a thing of beauty. (He predicted Kerry nailing the remaining two debates and winning in November.) I highly recommend catching it if you can.
I'm actually starting to allow myself to feel confident that the expected spin will fail to reduce Kerry's debate victory! I'm volunteering at a 'last weekend to register' event tomorrow. Al Franken's in town and I'll be seeing his live radio show from Boulder on Monday. I don't think I've felt this confident politically since November of '92. Woo hoo!
The source said Novak will require a partial hip replacement, but had no estimate of how long that will keep him off the campaign trail, or at least trailing far behind it. funny.
just today wondering how long that crazy bastard was going to live. god, he's only 73? i might of guessed a 173, novakula. well, i wish no one ill will but couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
in sadder news, richard avedon, died today at age 80. what ever you might think of his work, he was a trendsetter in photography and over all not a bad artist.
Our presence in the middle east should eliminate the need for a Likud party. Just the opposite is occuring. Why?
SWR: i am not voting on only one issue, or even close. I am talking about Israel/Palestine right here, on this web site, right now. There is a difference.
You're repeating slogans about Kerry as an AIPAC stooge without giving any specifics.
I'm sure Kerry does lean towards the Israelis.
So what?
Is that going to stop you from voting for him?
Do you want Bush appointing the next Supreme Court or four more years of John Ashcroft?
I don't. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.
SWR -
I looked pretty hard, but never saw any post that would indicate that CAF is a naderite. Please direct me to the correct post, and I will apologize (maybe, the bastard did try to put words into my keyboard) immediately.
SWR: I know for a fact that Kerry will be as closely aligned with Sharon as Bush, based on Kerry's previous (early this year) formal endorsement of Bush's Israel/Palestine plan, based on Kerry's appearance last year on the same stage as Rick Santorum, in front of a banner reading "AIPAC", wherein he pledged a permanent, undying fealty between Israel's militant party and the US government. He made this pledge along with Feinstein, along with Santorum, along with Kennedy, along with Lott.
As far as "throw my hands up like a baby" I am beginnning to find you to be a real insulting jerk and I suspect once again that I am wasting my time attempting to discuss things for the sheer sake of it with a True Believing Democrat.
Good night.
One of the things that's always put me off about the more far-left political groups in America has been the tendancy of so many to be wildly anti-Israel. You can call me names if you like, but I do feel that Israel has a right to its existence.
It's not even that they're anti-Israel. It's that they seem to believe in magic solutions to complex problems.
Lean towards the Palestinians and POOF, our problems in the Middle East go away.
That reminds me a bit too much of the hard right. It's magical thinking. It's faith not reason.
I'm probably anti-Israel. But is that going to solve all our problems? Is that going to turn Saudi Arabia into a democracy or clean up the clusterfuck in Iraq?
JeffCO,
I saw The McLaughlin group earlier this evening, and your assessment is spot on.
Blakely makes me want to smack someone, preferably him.
I was going to call him moon CAF but now I'm afraid of hurting his feelings.
If someone supports the war, isn't too infirm to be on the ground and hasn't volunteered yet, yes, they fit my definition of a coward.
Sending younger people to get killed in a war by men and women who used every available family connction or deferment WHILE PROMOTING THE WAR is cowardace.
Supporting the most degenerate administration in the history of the United States while it conducts a war which you have no intention of fighting yourself is cowardace.
In other words, why aren't all of you trolls in uniform in Iraq? Don't give me that 53-year-old stuff that the troll in drag used the other day. There was a story last winter or spring about a 56-year-old grandmother being shipped out to Iraq. All those brave, smooth handed, chubby cheeked College Republicans are willing to send grandmothers in their place to fight a war on behalf of their god-king.
Cowards every one.
You think he's really going to bed? Or just changing names again? Paid by the hour.
sad, but great obit:
Buffett, Jane Burrows BUFFETT - Jane
Burrows Buffett, age 64, died on Sept. 25 2004. Jane is survived by her husband of 40 years, Roger Buffett; their devoted sons, Perry and Carl; her daughters-in-law, Sara Buffett and Audrey Freudenberg; and four loving grandchildren, Erika, Allison, Simon and Zelia. Among those who mourn her will be countless friends and relatives whose lives Jane has touched. Jane was a woman of many hats. She was an English teacher (and later a tutor), a mediator/arbitrator for the State of Wisconsin, a homemaker and a gardener. She was a tireless advocate for good things like grammar, grandchildren, justice and other growing things. This fiery woman could make an impression on a person, and the family is endeavoring to make some lasting record of these impressions for the sake of her grandchildren, the youngest of whom is one year old. Stories and photographs may be sent to janememories@mac.com. As one who once taught English, and especially because she loved her grandchildren, Jane was outraged that any politician who would cut back cancer treatment options for social security recipients, who would invade a foreign country and then expect her grandchildren to pay the bills, could claim to be a "compassionate conservative." Once he became the nominee, she saw John Kerry as the candidate who would most conserve everything she valued. Jane fought to live long enough to be able to vote this November. To honor her memory, please do everything you can to elect John Kerry. On Tuesday, Sept. 28, 2004, there will be a service of burial at the OLD EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH CEMETERY at Pleasant View and Old Sauk Roads at 5:30 p.m., followed by a service of songs, scripture and prayers at the MADISON CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY, 7118 Old Sauk Road. There will be a service of memorial and thanksgiving on Saturday, Nov. 27, 2004. A full obituary and notice of that service will be published on Sunday, Nov. 21, 2004. Please do not send flowers for the burial service. Her body will be put to rest beside that of her daughter, Vera, who died on Sept. 17, 1983. Special thanks to Eliot Williams and all of the other doctors, nurses and staff at the University of Wisconsin Hospital. With their help, and the love, help and support of many, many friends, Jane was able to live life with zest for over eight and one half years, while living with multiple myeloma, for which a cure is yet to be found
I looked pretty hard, but never saw any post that would indicate that CAF is a naderite.
I didn't say he was. I called him an idiot, not a Naderite.
I'd say the logic goes something like:
"All Naderites are idiots but not all idiots are Naderites".
Wha?, you mustn't be that familiar with Naderite talking points- for sure, CAF isn't a Republican. Go to Counterpunch or Znet for examples of far left progressive thinking.
SWR:
Parting gift to you - you invoke the Supreme Court nominations as a reason to vote for Kerry - please be aware that he voted to confirm Antonin Scalia in 1986. Please also be aware that Nixon nominated Harry Blackmun in addition to William Rehnquist and Ford nominated John Paul Stevens. Bush nominated Souter, also. It is not really possible to predict what outcomes are going to happen in the court as a result of presidential nominations beyond the abortion issue.
I called him a naderite.He sounds just like them and his views are in that direction.Tho I have never seen him admit to being one.
C'mon back Caf,tell us the truth,or is it too damaging to admit to being a naderite?
Speaking of warehouse clubs, I picked up the Hunting of the President DVD at Costco this week. I've also seen there most of the more serious (Dean, Krugman, Clarke, Wilson, etc.) political texts as well as the less so (e.g., Franken, TDS) prominently displayed.
The fact that Costco execs have been donating generously to Democratic candidates (and are pro-labor, unlike some others we could mention cough, Sam's Club, cough) makes it all the sweeter to buy my giant box of Boca burgers from them.
to Counterpunch or Znet for examples of far left progressive thinking
I read both of them.
But how they go from "I don't like Kerry" to "let's vote for Nader" is baffling.
Even if I were voting for a third party candidate, Nader (especially after he allied himself with anti-gay fascists in Oregon) would be far down on my list.
I'd probably write in Kucinich or something.
Hmmm...I don't think CAF is Toby Putz-boy...he sounds more Spidle-ish to me.
SWR: perhaps as far as "delusional panaceas" that some sort of "left" you speak of holds in your opinion with regards to Israel/Palestine in the Middle East ... well, perhaps the delusion that some sort of "left" believes in panaceas is YOUR delusion, not mine or anyone else's.
And if we live in a world of delusions, I'll choose the delusion that includes cutting off military support to Israel and working with the peace movement and labor parties in Israel.
You are aware, are you not, that the positions you don't know much about but denounce as "far left" "delusions" are in fact mainstream thinking in Israel?
Jesus, people are brainwashed here ...
in sadder news, richard avedon, died today at age 80. what ever you might think of his work, he was a trendsetter in photography and over all not a bad artist.
In the Sept 27th issue of The New Yorker, there's a profile of THK, and it's got a great Avedon photo of her. Damn, does she look gorgeous.
I'm watching Elizabeth Edwards conduct an Oprah style Town Hall meeting with military wives in West Virginia. This woman is Bill Clinton brilliant. I'll take her as "Second Lady" but she should be President of the United States.
Lime Rickey, if I were single, you'd be in trouble.
The Israel baiting seemed to be agent provocateur stuff to me.
Parting gift to you - you invoke the Supreme Court nominations as a reason to vote for Kerry - please be aware that he voted to confirm Antonin Scalia in 1986. Please also be aware that Nixon nominated Harry Blackmun in addition to William Rehnquist and Ford nominated John Paul Stevens. Bush nominated Souter, also. It is not really possible to predict what outcomes are going to happen in the court as a result of presidential nominations beyond the abortion issue.
Right. History doesn't count. We live in exactly the same world know as we did when Eisenhower appointed William Brennan.
Come on, don't be an idiot. We all know Bush will pack the court with hard-right 27 year old justices.
You're basically arguing that the Republicans are OK on the environment because Teddy Roosevelt was friends with John Muir.
"... only people speaking the truth these days in the major media are cartoonists and commedians."
In old England, only the court jester and the priest were permitted to speak truth to kings.
Last night was like the first dose of a mind clearing drug. If it didn't snap the true believer out of their coma, it definitely got them muddled.
Our resident true believer made the sad mistake of giving us the chance to use ... facts.
SWR:
Nader did not "ally himself with anti-gay fascists in Oregon". That is part of the smear campaign that Democrats including Howard Dean continue to wage against Nader because he did not do as he was told to do by the Democratic Leadership Committee.
Nader publicly denounced the anti-gay activists in question, they never worked for him or in any way he could control or impact, and furthermore he denounced them in a debate with Howard Dean. And yet Dean keeps repeating his lie and repeating his lie and repeating his lie ...
You need to get information from sources other than the Democratic Party. You're not just a loudmouth, you're a brainwashed loudmouth who is getting his information pertaining to factual situations from an unscrupulous political party trying to rally votes through any means during an election year.
Moon CAF, it is.
Sure I'd like a better candidate than Kerry. I'd also like to have free run of the Playboy mansion and a private jet.
John Kerry is the only canidate i would have ever come out to vote for, except for this year, this year i would vote for a bag of shit vs. bush.
the politcal system is broke, the media is broke, but it does not mean good people don't inhabit these professions, ok, not many, but John Kerry is a good person, bush is not.
I hate to say it but i still think Carter was one of our best presidents, (ducks) because he was essentially honest.
And go one better.Topless beaches,in America.
smalfish
i know woots boobies are cute but you ain't seen boobies till you been to south beach.
miami also has hanover beach which is full frontal.
I'll choose the delusion that includes cutting off military support to Israel and working with the peace movement and labor parties in Israel.
In what alternate universe does the Labor Party in Israel advocate cutting off US military aid?
Clown Land?
Nader publicly denounced the anti-gay activists in question, they never worked for him or in any way he could control or impact, and furthermore he denounced them in a debate with Howard Dean.
How many times did Dean have to ask him to denounce them before he finally did?
Check out who gives money to Nader.
SWR: Kerry voted for Scalia and has said this year that he would nominate anti-abortion justices to Federal court seats. What it is about these statements that he has made - the only statements he has made, regarding the judiciary - that leads you to believe that he is going to appoint another Steven Breyer?
Besides, if you look at the court, Clinton assisted the Bushes and Reagan in packing it with hardcore corporatists. While these judges will dicker over abortion, there are some big issues they agree on Big Time.
Naderite, idiot, whatever...you won't find out who he supports. He won't say.
Another "I'm not for the enemy, but I wanted to tell you that your guy sucks" troll.
Borrrrring. CAF - last chance - who do you support?
JeffCO, big props to Costco, they pay their workers a living wage.
When one says "Fucking weasel" do we mean a weasel that is actually copulating? Or are we using it in an adjective sence, e.g. the President is fucking dumb. There, you see, a president cannot make passionate love to a dumb. Only a OB-GYN can, or a head of state to a widow.
So, I ask again: Is Bush fucking stupid or is his brother engaging in beastiality?
What does it mean when holoscan doesn't keep your name or homepage, but keeps posting as Anonymous?
SWR:
a) Dean asked him once and Nader denounced them immediately. Dean, 5 minutes later, repeated his accusation as if nothing had transpired. This debate took place on NPR several months ago, go get the transcript yourself,
b) The accusation that Nader is being funded by Republicans has been debunked as yet more DLC/DNC smearing. The Center for Responsive Politics, a liberal think-tank that Democrats have loved for years, produced a report about a month ago showing that 1) only 4% of Nader's funding came from Republican donors, and 2) those same Republican donors were actually giving more money to Democrats this year, anyway.
On that last count the particular irony is that the Republican donors in question have actually donated some money to Democratic media groups that are accusing Nader of taking Republican money. Go figure.
Besides, if you look at the court, Clinton assisted the Bushes and Reagan in packing it with hardcore corporatists. While these judges will dicker over abortion, there are some big issues they agree on Big Time
The abortion issue is important to anybody who's not a middle-class white male like yourself.
And that's only one issue.
Go ahead. Vote for Nader if you want. I can't control it.
But don't ask me to stop pointing out that he has some hard right allies and that's he's funded by republicans.
"But how they go from "I don't like Kerry" to "let's vote for Nader" is baffling.- SWR
Yes, I also visit those sites frequently, and sometimes the analysis is spot on. I just don't get their uncompromising stances- the we want everything or nothing attitude. They'll vote for Nader, who is also far from perfect, a candidate that has absolutely no chance of winning- a man who has, in my opinion, sold himself to stroke his own ego.
SWR: You'll note that the accusations about Nader taking Republican money died down all of a sudden, if you were paying attention. The date they died down corresponded to a press release from the Nader/Camejo campaign announcing the CRP report. It even shut up Eric Alterman, a feat accomplished my man before in history.
Sweet Sue, thx for the tip,the Town Hall meeting on CSPAN is great.
When one says "Fucking weasel" do we mean a weasel that is actually copulating? Or are we using it in an adjective sence, e.g. the President is fucking dumb. There, you see, a president cannot make passionate love to a dumb. Only a OB-GYN can, or a head of state to a widow.
So, I ask again: Is Bush fucking stupid or is his brother engaging in beastiality?
So you have all the "facts,Caf.But the question is,WHat are you going to do about it?
What,in your infinite wisdom can any of us do?
Sadly there is not much that can be done.Like they advocate in the 12 step programs,one day at a time.One stepp at a time.
Kerry might be corporate like the rest,but if we have the power to unseat a wqould be king,we have the power to exact change way beyond this monumental challenge.
Kerry is our tool after this election,not the other way around.
Dean asked him once and Nader denounced them immediately. Dean, 5 minutes later, repeated his accusation as if nothing had transpired.
I saw the debate myself. Nader would not denounce them until Dean twisted his arm.
You're not going to troll me out of what I saw with my own eyes.
What's more, if Nader couldn't get on the ballot without the Oregon Family Council, he should have taken himself off.
Where do you draw the line? Do you let the American Nazi party put you on the ballot?
Nader's own party won't endorse him. That should tell you something about the man.
So how many times will CAF say "goodbye" before he actually leaves?
this year i would vote for a bag of shit vs. bush.
Second that. It's time to take a Manichean view of this election. You either go to your polling place and cast a vote for Kerry -- and take another couple-three voters who will do the same -- or you've effectively helped Bush help himself to another four years of fucking everyone in this country for the benefit of his cronies. I don't care if you wish Kerry were a "better" candidate (whatever that means) -- insert private jet / Playboy mansion analogy here -- just fucking vote for him and make sure a handful of others do so as well, and once Bush is back in hell where he belongs, complain to your heart's content.
Thersites, sorry, but the loudmouth factor was getting me angry, and I really hate it when people throw falsehoods into my face or just smugly say stupid things as if they are facts.
Yes, I also visit those sites frequently, and sometimes the analysis is spot on. I just don't get their uncompromising stances- the we want everything or nothing attitude. They'll vote for Nader, who is also far from perfect, a candidate that has absolutely no chance of winning- a man who has, in my opinion, sold himself to stroke his own ego.
Those sites are fine when they're reporting on specific issues (labor issues for example).
But I'm just amazed they can vote for a guy who needs the "Oregon Family Council" to put him on the ballot.
If you can't find some liberal or left group in fucking Oregon to get you on the ballot, you're a Republican tool, nothing more.
Now it's back to poor little Ralphie again.
No one here is going to take the bait and no one here is a real Naderite. Just Republican trolls making believe they are to inflame those who might say nightly roseries to The BVR.
They aren't here. No more are those who are going to be swayed to vote for Bush or to be talked out of voting for Kerry. Your attempts to incite anti-Semitism to smear Atrios with aren't going to work either.
Go back to your frat party, kid. We won't run to your RNC handler and tell on you.
Thersites: sorry, did'nt mean to interrupt the echo bouncing around here with a different point of view than the Kerry press release.
"read this link published today. especially the part where al-Qaida discussed being devoured.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6148985/\"
Uh ... he was talking about Muslim countries when he said they would be devoured one by one. NOT al-Qaida. Notice that Bush's invasion plays right into this argument's hands; if you were a moderate Muslim looking at Bush's moves, you would probably find it very easy to believe that Muslim countries will be devoured one by one. Zawahiri is playing on this in making his argument.
Amateurish debate between two lightweights that dominates the thread. Another form of trolling.
Righties sure are whiners...hey, props to Richard Avedon for Elegance and Class...the prettiest of one-trick ponies, smooth, like Chet Atkins, just fabulous beauty. Oh, BTW, Kerry won. The idea that he may not be ultimately successful is far more a reflection of the American peoples' treatment as "consumers" by the powers that be than anything Kerry has or hasn't said or done. Couple three generations of TV, Coke, Twinkies, microwave mac'n'cheese, more TV, asbestos, mercury, arsenic and lead, you got buncha idjits. Fuckin' A...
oops, didn't mean to post that again, i was just trying to reload a very old pageview ... SORRY
SWR:
Nader got on the ballot without that group. The reason the Nader/Camejo campaign is not on the Oregon ballot is because Democratic Secretary of State Bill Bradbury made Kathleen Harris look like an amateur this year, the way he assaulted basic participatory democracy.
Oregon has a real problem. The Democratic-Party-packed state Supreme Court just made the Democratic Party State Secretary into a dictator of sorts. They'll never be another third party candidate on any Oregon state ballot until the Democratic deathgrip on that state's government is broken and the profoundly unjust and anti-democratic decision made by the Democratic-packed State SC can be revered by non-partisan judges acting with the common good and basic democratic practices in mind fix it for Oregonians.
You pay attention to much, do you?
Thersites: sorry, did'nt mean to interrupt the echo bouncing around here with a different point of view than the Kerry press release.
So people on a pro-Kerry site have to prove they're open minded by denouncing Kerry?
I think it's pretty obvious that this is a pro-Kerry not a "fair and balanced" site.
If you want to post rants about the Israelis being the source of all our problems or odes to St. Ralph, there are plenty of places you can go.
Bad news trolls, it's your turn in the barrel.
500th!
Whoo whooooo!
So, I ask again: Is Bush fucking stupid or is his brother engaging in beastiality?
Both, possibly, but we only have photographic evidence of the former.
They'll never be another third party candidate on any Oregon state ballot until the Democratic deathgrip on that state's government is broken and the profoundly unjust and anti-democratic decision made by the Democratic-packed State SC can be revered by non-partisan judges acting with the common good and basic democratic practices in mind fix it for Oregonians.
And I'm sure all this will happen if Bush gets 4 more years.
It is clear to me that the media set high expectations for John Kerry, in a effort to end the race if he did not deliver.
That storyline didn't take, so we now have plan B.
Otherwise, how do you explain the 180 degree turn about the importance of the debate?
""""Yes, we should wait a few days. When the evildoers attack, things like debates and New England patricians and elections will become irrelevant. Straight to the heart, shoot from the hip, plain talking and steadfast love of America will return. You liberals will be swinging from lampposts for your treachery.
Anonymous """"
FUCK YOU ,YOU INCREDIBLY STUPID MISINFORMED JACKASS!
Seriously, expand your horizons. Stop listening to Rush and Bukkake Hannity.They both are fantastically wealthy ,elite, limousine right wingers. They peddle lies and major distortions to people like you.Don't trust them!
Unless you're being ironic....then disregard my rant.
Thank You.
....
EPT - yes CAF is an agent provaceteur
CAF - yeah, you know all about throwing falsehoods around, or smugly stating BS as facts. You said your goodbyes - now find the door. Troll.
I don't know about anyone else, but IMHO, people that come here pushing Bush BS trying to deflate Kerry-supporters are trolls, and there's no reason why people doing the same in the name of Nader (although probably Bush supporters looking for a more sympathetic ear) aren't the same.
One more time for CAF:
KERRY/EDWARDS IN A LANDSLIDE!!!
If the final debate tally was three draws or two draws and one win by Kerry called a draw by the media, the SCLM would force the election to Bush. In order to win, Kerry's got to win two decisively and have another win called a draw by the media. The playing field is so totally fucked up that we've got to be three times as good as the fucktards of the Right.
But no problem. We are...
500th!
Whoo whooooo!
Central Scrutinizer
Get it past 999 and the troll's head explodes.
How to be a political philosopher. A list by Josh Trevino(aka Tacitus). Pathetic.
Yeesh. What's that smell?
The problem with Nader is that he hasn't made the kinds of alliances necessary to get him and keep him in the spotlight.
He needs connections to people with not only money in the billions, but people with connections in the press & media. He needs a public spokesman who has connections and a sounding board to keep his name in the public consciousness 24/7.
He also needs to get more independents in either the state and federal legislatures, or state governorships.
Only with power and connections will he be able to overcome the weight of the dark forces pressed against him.
The corporations and special interest groups will never allow a man who is not their slave to become president. They've invested way too much money in the people we already have in office to allow a maverick to ride in and undo what they've spent the better part of a century trying to establish.
The moment a man like Nader took office, he'd have reps from these people there to threaten him. Play Calvin ball or die.
Anybody think I'm too far off base in this speculation?
MYOB'
.
SWR, agreed, Nader is a tool. The fact that he thinks he's bringing anything of substance to this election is delusional. Also, when your own party doesn't endorse you, what does that say? Eh, enough about Nader. Let's talk about more pleasant things... like how Kerry trounced Bush in the debate.
Haha, Bush did so bad the republican trolls are having to argue about the DEAN-NADER debate?! JESUS!
Get it past 999 and the troll's head explodes.
Now that's a goal.
CAF= Toby Putzhold.
Nonsense. He's not even a troll. He's raising issues about Israel and Palestine that we absolutely have to come to terms with, but which have been swept under the carpet for years because the "anti-Israel = anti-Semite" propaganda has been so successful.
This is not some peripheral issue that can wait until after we have sorted out the mess in Iraq - if we ever do sort it out - it's at the very heart of "why do they hate us". It will require immediate attention from President Kerry - because if carrying on screwing the Palestinians is going to be his policy, then good luck putting together the kind of international support he is counting on for Iraq and the "War on Terror" in general. The rest of the world just doesn't buy the argument that you can fight "terrorism" while you are determinedly fuelling terror's greatest single cause.
The only problem I have with CAF's line of questioning is the timing. For me, it is so important to get Bush out of office that I am biting my tongue till Kerry wins, in the hope that his I/P policy is not as dumb as Dubya's. But I do understand that hoping Kerry has a smarter Israel policy than he has fessed up to so far isn't much to go on, and if CAF feels the same way then it isn't trolling to say so.
Ichiro just broke the single season hit record that has stood for 84 years! A bright spot in a very dark season for Mariners fans.
Oh and Bush still sucks.
Daily KOS is encouraging the use of the "broken record" meme to describe Bush.
Some language:
Bush sounds like a broken record congratulating himself on the failure in Iraq and all of his other failures - a broken record playing "Onward Christian Soldiers," perhaps. A broken record playing an unknown tune called "It's Hard Work."
They've invested way too much money in the people we already have in office to allow a maverick to ride in and undo what they've spent the better part of a century trying to establish.
For the last time, I agree that we need a viable leftist party in the United States.
I'm also not against third party candidates.
But Nader is not the candidate. Nader is far, far, far down on the list. He's not a maverick or somebody who's challenging the status quo.
He's a rich lawyer with a big ego and a lack of scruples about making alliances with the far right.
It is clear to me that the media set high expectations for John Kerry, in a effort to end the race if he did not deliver.
That storyline didn't take, so we now have plan B.
Otherwise, how do you explain the 180 degree turn about the importance of the debate?
Liberal Avenger - the "broken record" meme has the added benefit of being a double entendre. He was a broken record last night and he's had a broken record over the course of the last three and a half years.
And of course, he's broken all relevant records for assponyism.
The only problem I have with CAF's line of questioning is the timing. For me, it is so important to get Bush out of office that I am biting my tongue till Kerry wins, in the hope that his I/P policy is not as dumb as Dubya's.
Even if Kerry is as bad on Israel as Bush, he's not going to have the same close ties to the Saudis that Bush does.
This is what I mean by "magical thinking".
Israel is maybe 25% of the problem in the Middle East.
What about the other 75%? It doesn't go away when you swing away from the Israelis.
If I had that magical device from the alternate Star Trek universe that just made things dissappear, and I made Israel dissappear, Saudi Arabia would still be a totalitarian country and would still support terrorism against the US.
Eventually, turning away from the Israelis might win us some friends in the Arab world.
It might also embolden anti-American fundamentalists to increase their demands.
You just can't predict these things, and you don't want to pin all your hopes on one issue.
That's magical thinking.
Smeghead -
You're right about the P/I issue, and you're right about the timing. That's what makes CAF a troll.
That and the fact that he has gone out of his way to critisize Kerry's P/I stance, but not Bush's...and tell us that the democratic party is a bunch of shitheads.
Of course he couches it in "Both repubs and dems are shitheads" language, but I don't care. Why does't he take his troll-show to LGF and say "I don't like dems, but Bush is a shithead?"
And even if he did, wouldn't he just be a troll on both sites?
Why does't he take his troll-show to LGF and say "I don't like dems, but Bush is a shithead?"- Wha?
I'm getting the popcorn ready, let me know when the show starts 
Atrios,
Why hast thou forsaken us?
undecideds on hardball - this is enlightening/disheartening - wow!
"49% of israeli jews want bush to win."
tough shit.
Nader is all about screwing Democrats - Nader actually wants Bush to win because he is under this delusion that after 4 more years of Bush that all of America will be running to Ralph to save the day and will sweep him and all Greens into offices across the land in record numbers.
Whether it's good or not, we are still a two-party system. Third parties have gotten some victories, but it's going to take a considerable amount of time before another third-party candidate wins a major office (Ventura was the last in 1998 - and he only won because of his fame ala Arnold).
Fuck Nader and I don't care who flames me for it.
GOTV.
It's all in the GOTV.
Fuck Caf and his idealism.I am all about getting some serious results.I could care less that Kerry is corporate right now.
I said it earlier.
Kerry is OUR tool,not the other way around.
If, for a moment, i can flog the dead horse that is John McCain, there are these two items. 1) From apnews.myway.com, "Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, campaigning with Bush during the day, said the evening was Kerry's 'brightest moment' of the past six weeks. That assessment seemed to displease Bush aides, who arranged a second meeting between the senator and reporters during the day. This time, McCain said that based on 'style points,' Kerry had done 'very well.''John Kerry showed significant debating skills. He presented himself very well.' He added, 'I think what we saw in the president was the steadfast, self-confident, single-minded almost commitment to fighting and winning this war on terror and doing whatever is necessary to protect the people of this country.' 2) from www.friendsofmccain.com, an exerpt from John McCain's book "Why Courage Matters", "We are all afraid of something. Some have more fear than others." So, i ask myself, what does the Pres/Cheney/Rove have that Sen. McCain fears? Cuz it certainly looks like they have him on a short leash.
OT, but whatever happened to Ricky Vandal, that funny little troll. Did he get an all-expenses paid trip to Cuba? If I were Bush (retch), I would have given him a first-class ticket.
isn't it time to start a new open thread? Those two trolls can continue their pendantic discussions here all by theirownselves.
CS Said : Why hast thou forsaken us?
Because he is busy trying to unlock gizmo's jaws. (I might suggest WD-40)
The person who longed for a foreign policy by Adams or Jefferson should look at what those foreign policies were actually like.
Not to mention the Alien and Sedition Acts, the originals of the Patriot Act
what does the Pres/Cheney/Rove have that Sen. McCain fears? Cuz it certainly looks like they have him on a short leash.
That leash sure is getting a lot of use. First it was on Jenna and not-Jenna, then Lyndie England (sp?) borrowed it for Abu Ghraib, and now they've snapped it around McCain's privates. The leather's looking mighty frayed.
Hey, when is the "CAF"-troll gonna complain about the blogads on this site and the declining level of discourse and how Eschaton has Really Gone Downhill Since the Old Days?