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I'MMA LET YOU FINISH

Falafel!
Bill "SHUT UP" O'Reilly | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:16 pm | #

chase not, Eschaton
o | 10.16.04 - 4:19 pm | #

I'm gonna make that O'Franken guy "disappear". Hehehe.
Bill O. | 10.16.04 - 4:19 pm | #

Just read the Suskind article and I need a big stiff drink. I'm sorry, but this stuff keeps alternating between making me feel that we're finally going to wake up from this nightmare and fear that I will indeed live in interesting times as Bush and the true believers just trash the world right before our eyes.
catalexis | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:20 pm | #

Read.
My.
Lips.

No.
New.
Draft.

-Junior

Fool me twice?
Libby Sosume | 10.16.04 - 4:22 pm | #

yeah i dont use the term "MUST READ" often but the ron suskind piece is M U S T R E A D

"oh you're just one of those reality-based people."
n69n | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:23 pm | #

I just love it when the hypocrites get their just comeuppance: O'Reilly, Bennet, Limbaugh. So many people trip due to their own arrogance. I'd like to see these bastards do jail time.
ghengis khan | 10.16.04 - 4:23 pm | #

OT If Karl Rove and Rush Limbaugh end up in the same cell, who will be whose bitch?
Ind4ke | 10.16.04 - 4:29 pm | #

semi-OT:

Do I remember correctly that their was a Bush quote where he said that God told him to invade Iraq? Or something to that effect.

If so, could someone point me to it. I need it for an argument with a republican.

thx
miguel | 10.16.04 - 4:29 pm | #

Bob Woodward's book
Ind4ke | 10.16.04 - 4:30 pm | #

I've been saying Bush is a wackjob for 4 years now. In fact there are so many voices crying in the wilderness that he's nuts that it's like bedlam out here! Pity the media are deaf dumb and blind. Oh, yeah, whores too.

No more years.

BTW, check out the "Republican Fight Song" video:

http://www.sputnik7.com/vod/inde...=music& key=rbrf
sara | 10.16.04 - 4:30 pm | #

The Hal Crowther article is even more frightening than the Suskind article.
jeebus | 10.16.04 - 4:33 pm | #

I remember correctly that their was a Bush quote where he said that God told him to invade Iraq?

Miguel: Bush said that when he met with Palestinian leader Abu Mazen. Try googling.
nur al cubicle | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:33 pm | #

This'll get you in....

bugos6

bugos
Central Scrutinizer | 10.16.04 - 4:36 pm | #

That article by Suskind is really eye opening,again!

TO say that junior is guided by faith is to believe that Jimmy swaggart is the true liasion to GOD.

Junior is so deluded in his thinking that he uses his intuition to make decisions that affect the entire world.Now if he was guiding my company (which is scary enough) I might be inclined to believe that his intuition is an OK thing,but to lead the world with this "second sight" is a truely freightening thing.

I find the part of the article that deals with the roadmap to peice extremely insightful.

''I don't know why you're talking about Sweden,'' Bush said. ''They're the neutral one. They don't have an army.''

This is the man that leads the "free world".

Sewwden doesnt have an army?

A holocost survivor has more insight into the thinking of Isreallis than junior and most of his handlers and he may have had a great point,but juniors insistance that Sweeden has no army killed some great debating points.

How much more of this is the world going to sustain?When will the U.S. be shunned should junior get the nod?
smalfish | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:39 pm | #

A friend sent this to me. It's pretty damn hysterical.

http://tinyurl.com/5sgb6
Anon | 10.16.04 - 4:39 pm | #

5 more dead American service members in Iraq.

November 2nd, pull the lever for Kerry/Edwards in memory of all the American servicemembers who have died for Chimpy's holy war.
Chris Tucker | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:40 pm | #

Holy crap. Did you guys read what Bruce Bartlett had to say about Blessed Leader?:

"This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them..."

THERE'S a re-election slogan: "Vote Bush. 'Cuz Deep Down, He's Just Like the Terrorists."
Brad Reed | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:44 pm | #

Holy crap. Did you guys read what Bruce Bartlett had to say about Blessed Leader?:

"This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them..."

THERE'S a re-election slogan: "Vote Bush. 'Cuz Deep Down, He's Just Like the Terrorists."
Brad Reed | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:44 pm | #

Holy crap. Did you guys read what Bruce Bartlett had to say about Blessed Leader?:

"This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them..."

THERE'S a re-election slogan: "Vote Bush. 'Cuz Deep Down, He's Just Like the Terrorists."
Brad Reed | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:44 pm | #

"Just read the Suskind article and I need a big stiff drink. "

I just read the Suskind article and I -have- a big stiff drink and it's not helping.

We have just been told, very politely, that the President of the United States is clinically insane.

Reality based community indeed. At least Duncan Black, who I am going to presume has at least an ethnically based familiarity with Knoxian theology knows how (and when) to use the term inerrant.... And the fact that that term is used in conjunction with that of the President scares me peagreen as well.

More drinking. Whiskey, this time.
GWPDA | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:47 pm | #

How the hell does a person become a fundy? How warped must parents be to produce one? I assume that it has something to do with childhood -- fear, insecurity, intolerance, ignorance, domination, punishment. What is it?

Another thing, how do you say projection? Bush knows these terrorists in the world and they must be killed. "They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them. . . . " so says repug Bartlett. Wow, we're in trouble.
David | 10.16.04 - 4:48 pm | #

When will the U.S. be shunned should junior get the nod?

It's going to be just like Viet-nam years. The President rebuffed UN Secretary U Thant. Canada and Sweden took the pacifists. France welcomed some emigres. There was a run on the dollar. The British kept their distance. The difference will be that there is no Soviet Union with its retaliatory capacity to scare the pants off the conservative whack jobs in Washington if they go too far.
nur al cubicle | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:49 pm | #

As I mentioned on an earlier thread - All this is enough to turn me into a praying person, much like the proverbial soldier in a foxhole

Please, dear God, don't let this gang be re-elected. Pretty please!
QuiltLady in NY | 10.16.04 - 4:50 pm | #

American fundementalism is nothing more that Islamic radicalism.Junior is to the fundamentalists as Osama is to the radicals.

How did we get here?

Better yet,how do we get out of this,should Kerry not win?
smalfish | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:51 pm | #

Yes, serious insanity.

But fear is what they want. Don't do it for them.
emd | 10.16.04 - 4:52 pm | #

"...faith in his own inerrant judgment" - Atrios

Bingo. Just like Abraham, who was convinced of his own ability to judge that the voice telling him to kill his own son was God's, not Satan's, so our George, who is, after all, also a prophet of Biblical proportions, "knows" it is God telling him to sacrifice innocents on an alter of oil.

We have a word for people like this, and Christian ain't it.
Froghat | 10.16.04 - 4:53 pm | #

"We have just been told, very politely, that the President of the United States is clinically insane."

I've been pointing that out on various threads for several months now.

d
David | 10.16.04 - 4:55 pm | #

First post for me, kind of fun...

I grew up in Durham, NC, reading Hal Crowther and going to school with his daughter. His article is classic Crowther, personally honest and full of deep sadness at what has happened. I hear a tone similar to what I feel: not hate, not disgust, but sadness and anxiety at what might happen next.

The Suskind article, compared to the Bai article from last week, certainly shows the fundamental difference between our candidates, but the Crowther article has a deeper humanity and meaning than either.

We need a human being, a humble, calm, nuanced, reasoning, and effective president. Bush must go. Bush absolutely must go.

rothko
rothko | 10.16.04 - 4:55 pm | #

As I mentioned on the last thread, after this is over, we need to set up re-education camps. These fundie wackos have to be turned around before they destroy everyone and everything that isn't part of their *reality*.

It's almost five o'clock. Close enough.
pie | 10.16.04 - 4:56 pm | #

Bush must go. Bush absolutely must go.

Absolutely.

Welcome!
pie | 10.16.04 - 4:57 pm | #

Anti reality as in anti-matter.both as deadly to all who live and breathe.

I fear,I fear all the time now.
smalfish | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:01 pm | #

I don't buy Suskind's idea that Bush has changed. The story about meeting with the pastors and saying he doesn't know how poor people think is illustrative. He didn't call over someone who makes policy, he called over a speechwriter so he could get a good phrase for a speech.

I think there is a lot of stereotypical Texan in Bush. He is prolly real amicable and has always been til yuh cross em. Then he'll kick the shit of you. Once you say "uncle", he'll be nice again.

The other question is why all these people, like Christine Whitman, disclaim the bad stories and continue to support him. It isn't a question of believing Bush, it's ignoring reality like he does because it might end up being inconvenient.
Hobson | 10.16.04 - 5:01 pm | #

My take on Suskind.

Crux: Bush does not believe that he is the instrument of God. He believes that HE IS GOD.

I don't know what to say.
Marshall | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:03 pm | #

Oops, apologies for the double post.
Froghat | 10.16.04 - 5:07 pm | #

I know they want us to fear them. But, I do. Of course that makes me more actively opposed to them and I've shared the NYT's piece will all I know.

It's like we're in a bad horror movie and it's set on replay.
Matthew | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:08 pm | #

Read Georgie Ann Geyer's column that was published in the Tribune Friday -- she predicts who'll be in charge for the next four years if they aren't defeated.

Powell will be out; Condoleezza Rice will be Secretary of State. Rumsfeld will be out; Paul Wolfowitz, who likes the idea of perpetual war, will be Secretary of Defense. She had more but just those two scared the living daylights out of me.

Please God, open my fellow citizens' eyes!
strawhat | 10.16.04 - 5:09 pm | #

Angry Redneck or Retarded Chimp - Decision 2004: When it comes to the preznut it's a terriblly labile endeavor most days. One day he's the angry redneck; other days he's the downhill version of Jerry Fallwell or the retarded chimp who appears to be waiting for his M&M while swinging with the truck tire hanging from a rope.
syntallic | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:10 pm | #

"How the hell does a person become a fundy? How warped must parents be to produce one?"

some are born, some are made. but i think the bulk of them are "true" believers who found their faith during some kind of crisis, and it got them through that, but then after, no matter what, they can never let it go, or they'll be right back in whatever bad place it was they were before. they made a deal with the devil, if you like.

my mom got mixed up with them that way when i was maybe 4 or 5, so did a good friend of mine later with whom i still keep in touch--in both cases, they were dealing with the death of a child. so i can understand how they got there, and i can understand why they stay--but you have to think of them sort of like drug addicts i guess? the idea of living without the "comfort" (even though you and i and lots of others could point out how FALSE that comfort it, and how much it costs OTHER PEOPLE,) of their belief system, is like asking them to live without having a name. it takes them over--hence the sad Pod People jokes, but really it DOES eat up a lot of their original individuality, personality, and replaces those with a bible-misquoting automaton. praise jeebus.

then there are the OTHER kind of "true" believers--like GWB, Pat Robertson, etc., and the ONLY thing THEY truly believe in is their own will to power, which they have mistaken for "God". but same as someone like my mom, they are totally addicted. they are nothing beyond that will. they can not give it up, or ever even imagine doing so. they believe their own P.R.

some might argue that even the sheep are not really believing in something outside themselves, as much as they are identifying with the Power of The Leader (be it Pat, George, or this new fictional Left Behind version of Christ who came, not to save, but to judge--to kill 'em all so God could sort 'em out.)

and, they don't care if you kill them, then they are martyrs (sound familiar?) and they don't care about the planet, since they view it all like some kind of rental anyway. and they will never really work for peace or justice or any of those things because they "believe" that NONE of those things can ever happen until their god makes it happen--in fact, some of Pat's people say that you are interfering in "God's Plan" when you, for instance, tax wealthy people and use that money to feed the homeless babies on the street--see, you're butting in on "God's" turf when you do that, so it's actually a sin.

(and obviously, most of these people don't actually READ the bible! any EDUCATED theologian will have a very different, much more complex philosophy--but to the Fundies that just proves that they have lost their way--been lead astray by education.

It's all about the Faith, and ONLY the Faith, and that's it. You are right just because you KNOW you are right. period. and anyone who disagrees with you, is then by definition WRONG. end of story. see, it's really quite sim
Librarian | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:12 pm | #

Miguel:

"According to Abbas, Bush said: 'God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.'"

link
Father Ted | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:13 pm | #

The most chilling part was the quote from one of Bush's senior advisors:

> The aide said that guys like me were ''in
> what we call the reality-based community,''
> which he defined as people who ''believe that
> solutions emerge from your judicious study of
> discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured
> something about enlightenment principles and
> empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way
> the world really works anymore,'' he
> continued. ''We're an empire now, and when
> we act, we create our own reality. And while
> you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as
> you will -- we'll act again, creating other new
> realities, which you can study too, and that's
> how things will sort out. We're history's actors
> . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just
> study what we do.''

At the risk of violating Godwin's law, this is Nazi stuff, and the longer such people stay in office, the worse it will be for us -- for all of us, for the entire world.
JO'N | 10.16.04 - 5:14 pm | #

Suskind's article sort of confirms something I've suspected for some time now:

These people are intent on driving us right over the fucking cliff. And if Bush is re-elected, that's exactly what is going to happen.

And I'm beginning to think that going over the cliff is the only thing that can save this country; that Bush - and his base - absolutely have to have disaster rained down upon their heads (inevitably, it will rain down on everyon else's heads, as well) before people wake the fuck up and do something.

Here's the parallel to Nazism; the true believers have seized control, and will not relinquish it until their ideology goes up in smoke. Probably along with the rest of the country.
Bgno64 | 10.16.04 - 5:15 pm | #

Crux: Bush does not believe that he is the instrument of God. He believes that HE IS GOD.

I don't know what to say.
Marshall

So really, we're just in the midst of a large fucking cult with the typical lunatic cult leader. Perhaps if we examine techniques of cultists and successfully removing people from cults, those 25-30% of this country who are members of Bush's cult can still be salvaged.
GN | 10.16.04 - 5:15 pm | #

I think it's more serious than a cult, because no one realizes how things stand. I didn't until today.

The President of the United States thinks that he is God, and a significant part of the country agrees. That's way beyond cult.
Marshall | 10.16.04 - 5:20 pm | #

It is indeed a war between fundamentalisms of various types and modernity, not only on this continent but even more so in the Middle East. And fundamentalisms appear to be winning right now.

Part of the reason is that the modernists have taken the high ethical position of not pointing out the errors and consequences of the fundamentalist thinking. I have noticed how very rarely religious movements in this country are openly criticized. It's uncouth to attack religious ideas, it seems. Yet all the time these same religious ideas attack us, some of us more directly than others, of course, but essentially all of us.

Consider the idea that Christians are oppressed in this country. This doublethink concept means that Christians are not allowed to force their beliefs on the rest of the population. But I never see this pointed out in the media.

So yes, we are partly to blame. We have been too nice and too ethical and maybe slightly condescending for far too long.
Echidne | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:21 pm | #

Not listening to informed and experienced hands, avoiding real data, making gut or instinctual decisions, is that not the same path Hitler walked?

Go ahead, impose Godwins law or such. The point stands. Regardless of motivations or the pure evil involved, Hitler danced the same jig. He was in the position to actually dominate a large portion of the world, and he allowed his ego and inner myths to destroy him and the German people.

In that instance, we were all lucky, it allowed the poster child of malevolence to be overcome.

Now we are caught in a bear trap and the person responsible for putting us there and in theory rescuing us from it is absolutely insane and following along with that jig.
EkCenTrik | 10.16.04 - 5:22 pm | #

Our glorious leader is has categorically stated that he is not THE MESSIAH, he was simply chose by by THE MESSIAH to be President. If you do not cease and desist claiming that our glorious leader claims to be THE MESSIAH, rather than simply a vessel for THE MESSIAH's will, we will be forced to take legal action. Not only that, but you are in serious danger of being struck down by lightning and going straight to hell!
Ed Gillespie | 10.16.04 - 5:22 pm | #

''I don't know why you're talking about Sweden,'' Bush said. ''They're the neutral one. They don't have an army.''

Lantos paused, a little shocked, and offered a gentlemanly reply: ''Mr. President, you may have thought that I said Switzerland. They're the ones that are historically neutral, without an army.'' Then Lantos mentioned, in a gracious aside, that the Swiss do have a tough national guard to protect the country in the event of invasion.

Bush held to his view. ''No, no, it's Sweden that has no army.''

God help us!
wolf-man | 10.16.04 - 5:23 pm | #

Hal Crowther has a hard life, as a smart man in a world full of dumb people.

Nice of the Times to print Suskind's piece now, when it really doesn't matter, and after doing everything-- and I mean everything--they could to further Junior in his absolutely ruinous career.
Dr. Pedant | 10.16.04 - 5:23 pm | #

Suskind's article is total bullshit. This administration is totally reality based where it matters to them: Paying off their buddies, covering up for Saudi terrorists, motivating there fundy lemming base, and consolidating power in the good ol' US of A.
Boronx | 10.16.04 - 5:24 pm | #

So really, we're just in the midst of a large fucking cult with the typical lunatic cult leader.

iiiii'm gonna sit @ the welcome taaaable
iiiii'm gonna sit @ the welcome table on of these days HALLELUJAH!
- jerri blank, strangers with candy
n69n | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:24 pm | #

atrios, you should post some of the more damning parts in multiple posts.

Keep this thing alive.

This article gave me the chills!
Anonymous | 10.16.04 - 5:24 pm | #

I think I would rather be in hell than to have Junior lead this country another year.
smalfish | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:24 pm | #

I'm not real religious, so I'm not sure, but isn't this similar to the concept of "anti-Christ". Something that sounds good, bringing peace and democracy to the world, but is really evil because of the means (wars of choice, empire, torture, civil rights lost). Yet the man has a zealous cult following. Can anyone familiar with the concept please chime in. I know it doesn't really matter, but it's kind of freaky to me as someone outside the religious "mainstream".
alias | 10.16.04 - 5:25 pm | #

And about how you become a fundie: I don't know if there is any general theory, but I would think that the simplistic way advertizing and most of the media work in this country are partly to blame. We get accustomed to dualistic thinking very early on and thinking is discouraged while being active and good-looking are encouraged. The commercials tell us that ugly ducklings turn into beautiful swans if you just do the right thing. All this lays a groundwork for fundamentalist thinking.

I can think of one example. A young woman who was brought up by parents who thought that their children would be picked up by the entertainment industry. Much money was spent on classes for dancing and acting and so on, no effort was spent on education in general. The children were of average talents and none made it to Hollywood. But this young woman tried, and while doing the waitressing stunt all aspiring actors seem to have she was robbed. She sought solace in the nearest church afterwards, and it turned out to be a very fundy church.

She found a man there, got married and had six children in six years. She homeschools them and it's not possible to have an ordinary conversation with her.
Echidne | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:26 pm | #

I never knew there were so many people in this country willing to follow a blind man(chimpy) off a cliff because he has told them they will not get hurt. Astonishing!
Dawna | 10.16.04 - 5:28 pm | #

For chrissake, does anyone really think Bush's classification of the Congressional 9-11 report came from his gut? was inspired by faith? The guy is part of a cold, calculating fascist machine. He doesn't need to know whether Sweden has an army, because the last thing the mideast is going to get under Bush's watch is effective peacekeeping.
Boronx | 10.16.04 - 5:28 pm | #

The President of the United States thinks that he is God, and a significant part of the country agrees. That's way beyond cult.
Marshall

cult: A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Cults often use behavior modification on followers, such as thought- stopping techniques and instilling an "us-versus-them" mindset, Hassan said. With thought-stopping techniques, members are taught to stop doubts from entering their consciousness about the cult, often with a key phrase they repeat. Phobia indoctrination is also used, where cults play on a person's irrational fears, with threats such as the person will develop cancer [die from a terrorist attack] or go insane [or have GBLT children] if he ever leaves or questions the group."

"A destructive cult is an authoritarian regime, which uses deception when recruiting as well as mind-control techniques to make a person dependent and obedient, he said."

"...recovery from a cult's mind control can be facilitated if victims attain the proper information, support and interventions from former cult members."
GN | 10.16.04 - 5:28 pm | #

The Suskind article is great. But what strikes me is not that Bush IS certain, it's that he PRETENDS to be certain.

The only thing he's certain of, IMO, is that if he's ever held to account for anything--if he ever has to say "I'm wrong, and I'm sorry"--his life will effectively be over. If you ever saw the Simpsons episode where Bart imagines apologizing to his family, and pictures them all ganging up on him and ridiculing him and saying "Now we can blame you for everything"...that's Bush.

He's in over his head, and he knows it, but he's going to try to get through on sheer bluster, because being publicly revealed as a failure and a weakling scares him more than anything else does. Hell, I bet nuclear war scares him a LOT less than that.

I can see how the strain at this point might've driven driven him stark raving mad. And it wouldn't surprise me if, like so many other insane people, he were prey to messianic delusions. But I'll swar on a stack of Bibles he doesn't actually have faith OR certainty...it's all cowardice and lunacy and congenital weakness.
Philalethes | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:28 pm | #

alias,

you're absolutely right. I don't really know about the concept of the anti-Christ (but I think his appearance portends the second coming). As for Bush, he definitely fits into that model: ostensibly religious but in fact one who seeks to replace the holy and Divine with himself.
Marshall | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:30 pm | #

It's all the Chenoris fault.

The Chenoris is Mary Cheney's clitoris, which drives all Republican spin.
Fisher | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:31 pm | #

alias

check this out:

www.bushisantichrist.com
Rrose Sélavy | 10.16.04 - 5:31 pm | #

OK, I haven't read the Crowther piece yet, but I did read the Suskind article, and after reading Tucker Carlson on Karen Hughes via Atrios' earlier post:

I've obviously been lied to a lot by campaign operatives, but the striking thing about the way she lied was she knew I knew she was lying, and she did it anyway. There is no word in English that captures that. It almost crosses over from bravado into mental illness.

I have to conclude that the lunatics really are in charge of the asylum.
RCSanders | 10.16.04 - 5:31 pm | #

Does Bush really have the support of the career government workers in DC? He couldn't. I know letters have been written by various departments in the past, but the rest of them must think he's absolutely nuts.

This past four years has been an absolute nightmare. Sometimes I still can't believe it's all happened.
pie | 10.16.04 - 5:32 pm | #

Yeah, I tend to look at religious text as more metaphorical than prophetic, and it seems to me that Junior fits the "anti-Christ" concept. Someone who uses all the right words but ACTS in a totally un-Christian manner. Plus he has a following. I don't personally see it at all, but the guy is charismatic to his followers. Weird.
alias | 10.16.04 - 5:35 pm | #

Oh, BTW:

For those of you who may have given up on television - Sundance rocks.

Now someone will probably tell me why I shouldn't watch it...
RCSanders | 10.16.04 - 5:35 pm | #

All of a sudden, the phrase "drinking the kool-aid" takes on a whole new resonance....
Lancelot Link | 10.16.04 - 5:36 pm | #

"drinking the kool-aid"

Jim Jones. *shudder*
pie | 10.16.04 - 5:37 pm | #

America is polarized between those who believe in the right to choose whether or not to bear a child and whether or not to carry on a gay lifestyle, and those who don't. It all boils down to these two hot-button issues. So there :-b.
God Ain't Perfect | 10.16.04 - 5:39 pm | #

Does Bush really have the support of the career government workers in DC? He couldn't. I know letters have been written by various departments in the past, but the rest of them must think he's absolutely nuts.

I think he has very little support from career people. The neocon philosophy is a form of solipsistic idealism that most people simply aren't going to understand, let alone accept as an ultimate basis for realpolitik...

I'm very certain that there's a good-sized community of people in military and intelligence who aren't going to sit still for a second Bush term. How that'll actually play out, though, is anybody's guess.
Philalethes | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:41 pm | #

Hal Crowther rocks. I've been reading him since 1982.
JDRhoades | 10.16.04 - 5:41 pm | #

The President of the United States thinks that he is God, and a significant part of the country agrees. That's way beyond cult.
Marshall

And both Jonestowns' Jim Jones and George W. massacre their cult followers by having them absorb poisoned kool-aid...

Here's more evidence that Bushism is, in fact, a cult.

Characteristics of a cult leader:
1. Glibness/Superficial Charm; 2. Manipulative and Conning; 3. Grandiose Sense of Self; 4. Pathological Lying; 5. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt; 10. Poor Behavioral Controls (remember the first debate?); 12. Irresponsibility / Unreliability; 14. Lack of Realistic Life Plan / Parasitic Lifestyle
Sound familiar?

Characteristics of a cult follower:
Cult followers create a mystique about the leader that invites others to treat him or her as superhuman or even Divine.
People join interesting groups that promise to fulfill their pressing needs. They become cults when they are seen as deceptive, defective, dangerous, or as opposing basic values of their society...Cults obviously want to be successful, so they seek to recruit the most capable people who can effectively serve them. Many cult members are doctors, lawyers, professors, and high profile celebrities--responsible citizens...It is also important to note that cults make many promises to potential recruits in the initial phases of induction--it is often not until months or years later that the recruit realizes that these promises were ploys to gain their compliance. However, by that time, the member is already submerged in the group and likely in submission to and under the undue influence of its leadership.
GN | 10.16.04 - 5:45 pm | #

Cheering thought of the day.
Back when the Nazis and the fascists were rising to power there were people who could see what was coming and tried to stop it.
But they we not organized or strong enough.
Today through the internet we are connected. It's not just you sitting in your room wondering if Bush is crazy or you are.
We have the technology. We have the power. We will win. But the election is just the first battle. We must win the war.
Bionic | 10.16.04 - 5:45 pm | #

How that'll actually play out, though, is anybody's guess.

It's going to be a very interesting two weeks.
pie | 10.16.04 - 5:46 pm | #

This is helping me to understand why so many people are blind to the insanity all around them. These Republicans have launched a huge cult. It probably started out like the Frontline piece explained about Bush realizing that the Fundies were a reliable source of votes. Now it has taken on a life of it's own.
To the Fundies the Left is just a evil little turd in the Kool-Aid bowl of fundamentalism.
Anonymous | 10.16.04 - 5:51 pm | #

these folks are on a 12 step trip, except they haven't gotten to the 12th step.
ed | 10.16.04 - 5:53 pm | #

Basically, he's insane. We have an insane preznit. He's way more insane than Richard Nixon was - way more. Nixon had a lot of paranoia. Bush has delusions of grandeur to the nth degree - he's a megalomaniac, if that is still an accepted term.
Tena

A propos of this, Robert Altman's film "Secret Honor," which features an amazing one-man performance by Philip Baker Hall as a drunk and raving Richard Nixon, is coming out on DVD at long last. I haven't seen it in over a decade, but I'm surely it's more timely than ever. It's really worth watching, if anyone's interested.
Philalethes | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:57 pm | #

Blah3 has an interesting photo and theory
( http://www.blah3.com/ article.php...004101516093888 ) that imply the possibility of Bush wearing a defibrillator during the debate (and other times). Think about it: remember the pretzel incident? How about the time that his staff found him face-first on the Oval Office carpeting, "praying"? Or the "falling off the bicycle" syndrome?

I'm thinking that the guy is physically unfit for office, and his people are keeping that information from the voters because, after all, Bush is just a figurehead anyway! So...... the top two political leaders in the country both have serious heart problems ? (Oh, by the way, feel free to visualize that metaphorically). One can't help but wonder how many times Cheney has been incapacitated during his term and we've been told that he's in "a secure location" for security purposes.

If there was some kind of trophy for bullshitting the public, this administration would walk away with it without even breaking a sweat.
Thurber Hamm | 10.16.04 - 5:58 pm | #

It's going to be a very interesting two weeks.
pie

It's the two months AFTER the election that I get antsy about...no matter who wins, a lot could happen between election and inauguration...
Philalethes | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 5:58 pm | #

there's no persuading a true believer...they have to be deprogrammed. it will be up to the money elites within the republican party to take control from the true believers once they see the country spin outta control. military coup, anyone?
left wing conspirator | 10.16.04 - 6:00 pm | #

A very dear friend of mine who fights forest fires for a living sent me an email joke this morning, shockingly full of jabs about Kerry endlessly harping on Mary Cheney. It also involved an equal number of jabs at Bush, but of course that doesn't mean it was fair, because in terms of percentages of questionable things done/said in the debates, it was pretty much Kerry=100%, Bush=0.005%. And this election just isn't funny to me.

I was a bit shaken by it, because she's intelligent, plans to vote, and to vote for Kerry. But how to let her know that this is not an ordinary "Oh, those Wacky Politicians" kind of election? I didn't want to be strident or shrill, and my friend is, to say the least, educable. The back country probably just isn't a great place to get a lot of information about current events.

So I sent her those two articles. Thanks, Atrios.
rocket | 10.16.04 - 6:03 pm | #

And just to belabor the point, ever notice how stealthly the "religious right" operates. That doesn't seem consistent with the Christ of the Bible.

I personally think the "second coming" is a metaphor for when the human race gets its shit together, which doesn't look like anytime soon. Maybe something truly horrific might make it happen eventually. Otherwise, the whole human race will end up in "Hell".

Alright, I'm done with religion for today.
alias | 10.16.04 - 6:03 pm | #

The Suskind article is the best thing I have read on Bush in quite a long time. I think he has captured the true essence of Bush in the article. WE NEED TO PASS IT ON TO EVERYONE!
It also, I think, points out that supporters of Kerry are more reality-based versus Bush supporters that tend to base their support on ideology.
CameronTX | 10.16.04 - 6:03 pm | #

I've posted this before, I think, but it fits here:

My brother became a fundie to get laid.

No, really.

In the Irish potato famine, Protestant churches would feed the starving if they converted, thus the invention of the perjorative term "soup protestants."

Thersites calls my bro a "sex protestant".
NYMary | 10.16.04 - 6:04 pm | #

Jay-sus...so, the Bush people are against "reality based people" - which am us, apparently - and the McKinnon cat crows that the majority of America is against "reality based people".

For some reason, that gives me the screaming heebie jeebies.
Backslider | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 6:04 pm | #

the susskind article is truly creepy. i'm reminded of something i read about josef stalin in, i think, amis's koba the dread -- that stalin, embarassed at his lack of formal education, hired a professor to tutor him in marxist theory and dialectical materialism. once he learned enough to sound like he knew what he was talking about, he had the professor killed -- to get rid of a witness, and to cover his own shame.
rayc | 10.16.04 - 6:05 pm | #

I met an elderly man today and I mentioned that I liked his K&E sign.
His whole demeanor changed and he said, I don't understand why everyone doesn't have one. He told me that this country is now worse than Hitler. He got really upset and followed me outside and as we walked he told me that he fought in Korea and that he believed this whole country is sick. I would start to talk about Bush and he would correct me in a nice way, and say no the reason people like Bush is that the whole country is sick. I foolishly asked him what he thought would happen if Bush were re-elected. I thought he was going to pass out. He stopped walking and looked at me and said, that the whole world will stop talking to us, and will stay away from us. No one wants to deal with a sick country. It was chilling.
Chauncy Gardner | 10.16.04 - 6:05 pm | #

there's no persuading a true believer...they have to be deprogrammed.

I agree. "...recovery from a cult's mind control can be facilitated if victims attain the proper information, support and interventions from former cult members."

I think that when the mainstream media is deprogrammed, the 25-30% of our country which has been indoctrinated into Bushism can be salvaged.
GN | 10.16.04 - 6:05 pm | #

Tena:
That's why I'm working on my second Irish. Shrub is insane. We've just had that explained, quite clearly. He is surrounded by a handful of people who have an interest in using his insanity to further objectives of their own.

It's a not uncommon delusion, although not in the US. Not at this level and not with this degree of unbridled authority.

Presumably a great number of our Senators who voted the authorisation to take what action might be necessary will, to-morrow morning read Suskind and realise what that vote meant to the non-reality based community which is now running the government of the United States.

And, btw, given the degree of hatred, contempt and loathing manifest in every action the administration takes against the career civil service, there's not a great deal of love lost. Think of Richard Clarke and you'll pretty much have the idea. They've even managed to antagonise the Parks Service for the love of Chuy.
GWPDA | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 6:06 pm | #

In a political sense, the breakdown in this country is between foreign policy moderates and foreign policy extremists. Foreign policy extremists are susceptible to people who invoke god to rally people towards the type of paranoid nationalism that can fuel an adventure as ill-advised an costly as Iraq.

So yes, it is a divide between people who believe Bush and the people that don't. If there was only a way I could convince all the believers to stay home on Election Day because 'god will make sure Bush gets re-elected'
thehim | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 6:06 pm | #

NYMary - eg Chinese rice Christians.

Would that these people were that. They aren't.
GWPDA | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 6:07 pm | #

If a fundie jeebus goes off on you about the rapture,just ask him if his penile implant will be left behind.Guaranteed to cause an explosion.
notch | 10.16.04 - 6:07 pm | #

That Suskind article is very powerful. I would hope, that after the debate, a little of GW's ebullience will have worn off.

And we can hope, in the coming republican civil war, that they destroy each other.

I hope Karl is the first casualty. (in a figurative sense, of course.)
fourlegsgood | 10.16.04 - 6:08 pm | #

Odd isn't it bush seems to keep up this facade of infallibity, perhaps he is planning on running for Pope
kw | 10.16.04 - 6:12 pm | #

Can't speak for anywhere else, but here in Texas, public education is pretty much designed to crank out an underinformed person who has no capacity to think for him/herself, and who has the idea that critical reasoning is...just wrong. Schools, public or private, are essentially a big factory for fundie-vulnerable or fundie-committed people, unless the parents step in.

I get them as college juniors, and spend the first several weeks of every semester wrestling with the idea that "God causes schizophrenia" is not an appropriate test response. It takes time to reset their factory settings.
rocket | 10.16.04 - 6:12 pm | #

Backslider,
I read this article this morning, then laid down to take a nap, an you know what? I got the heebie jeebies about this, too, and couldn't sleep for a long time.

Just suppose for a second that this unnamed presidential advisor is correct, that most people are not operating in a reality-based universe, but going with their faith or their gut or something. That means they cannot be reasoned with, and will not acknowledge the legitimacy of Kerry when he wins. It means that we're in an election, but they're in a holy war. Shit. I'm sending Thersites out for beer.
NYMary | 10.16.04 - 6:13 pm | #

There have been several presidents who were kind of managed or had periods where they were not really running things: Wilson in bed and Harding for his entire life come readily to mind.
kei & yuri | 10.16.04 - 6:14 pm | #

The scariest part about the article was the fact that 42% of Americans consider themselves born-again or Evangalicals...Scary because born-agains truly believe everyone who is not like them will go to hell and it is their job to save us from ourselves. If our country becomes dominated by them the result will either be a civil war or a mass movement to Canada and Europe by the nons.
Rock. | 10.16.04 - 6:15 pm | #

It's the two months AFTER the election that I get antsy about...no matter who wins, a lot could happen between election and inauguration...

Yikes! You're right. Hope someone takes away the car keys.
pie | 10.16.04 - 6:15 pm | #

rocket,
Me too. And I'm supposed to teach critical thinking to folks who don't *want* to think critically. I get lots of papers that say "I know all the evidence points this way, but I think this other thing anyway."

I'm grading a set of papers next week where students are asked to lay out a controversial issue without revealing what they themselves think about it. They have more trouble with this rhetorical exercise than you can possibly imagine.
NYMary | 10.16.04 - 6:18 pm | #

In Wilson's case, at least, didn't his wife run things when he was unable to? I'm kinda skeered of Presidnet Laura!
rocket | 10.16.04 - 6:18 pm | #

And if you guys keep talking about Jim Jones, I'm gonna have to break out my Vapors album, I swear.
NYMary | 10.16.04 - 6:20 pm | #

NYMary, wow--you have my admiration for even attempting that task--it's too subtle for the place they're at when I get them. These days I pretty much resort to telling them "hey, believe what you want, I don't care, but lemme tell you, if you put that on the test, it gets no points".

Yes, those "all the evidence points this way but I just believe the other way" are pretty astounding. It amazes me how these kids have been ripped off by the educational system--no one has really asked them to do much more than give uninformed opinions thus far.
rocket | 10.16.04 - 6:22 pm | #

We've just had an election here in Australia that resulted in the re-election - to a fourth term - of the Howard government, original member of the Coalition Of The Willing. Australia is the first of the three original Iraq War combatants - US, UK and Australia - to go to an election, and Howard, friend of Bush, has won with an increased majority.

OK, Iraq didn't play as much here, with much softer support (and in most categories, opposition) to the war. Our economy is pretty good. No crippling tax cuts, no huge expenditures on overseas expeditions, no huge military appropriations. The Howard government has at least not dropped the ball economically or fiscally; and many say they have triumphed, despite the fact that much of Australia's wealth is based on fragile domestic home prices which are due for a fall anytime soon. Government debt has been largely paid out (76%) and we are running large surpluses every year, so far. Born Again religionists played - for the first time - a contributing role to Howard's victory, but opinions are mixed on whether this is a passing phenomenon or something that augurs darkly for the future of the separation of Church and state. Organised religious faith doesn't have nearly as much pull in Australia as it does in America, yet.

So much for the differences between the Bush and Howard governments' way of running their respective countries. Now to similarities.

There are large elements in both countries of right-wing (for want of a better word) voters who do not need any reason to re-elect their respective conservative governments; to whom the re-election of a Bush or a Howard is as close to automatic as it can be. You can reason with these people. You may even win a point or two, or three. They will agree that things aren't nearly as rosy as they are painted by their heroes, but you can't get them to change their vote. You think you've maybe made them think things through a little, but you're dreaming. They just go and quietly vote they way they were always going to vote. The connection between reason and action is just... missing.

Do not underestimate the power of the convictions of these religious people. Or the power of the convictions of those who may not be so religious, but who believe that "strong leadership" can, and will overcome any obstacle. A common argument in both countries, put about by both the leaders and their Spin Doctors is, "We may have made a mistake doing such and such, but we will never admit it. To admit a mistake will weaken us in the eyes of our enemies. We must compound our mistake because whatever we do - right or wrong - becomes the correct course of action, simply because we did it." This is why, at best, Howard and his friend Bush will not admit mistakes. Or, if pressed, will admit only to making mistakes in minor matters, like appointments, or minor policy matters. The nature of the admitted errors usually relates, not to
Aussie Bob | 10.16.04 - 6:23 pm | #

The thing about George Bush's faith is that it isn't faith in God, it's faith in his own inerrant judgment, and his inability not just to overlook inconvenient facts, but his inability to even be confronted with them.

it's the age-old problem: your God is my schizophrenia, and your schizophrenia is my God.

The crippling disability afflicting the average sensible American in dealing with the Bush Mindfuck Experience is this:

Most Americans believe, as Bush does, that (a) the universe was created by an omnipotent, loving God and (b) this God desires a state of affairs different from that which actually obtains. Let's refer to that state of affairs as "the will of God", since that's what it's usually called in practice.

Once you have granted these postulates, Bush (or your garden-variety religious demagogue) proceeds to postulate (c), which is an assertion in detail of what constitutes the will of God. Having already accepted (a) and (b), your only recourse is to argue "no, it's not", to which True Believers will respond "oh, yes it is".

This is an utterly futile argument; it is the very futility of ever hoping for its resolution that has led to measures such as constitutional protection of religious freedom and taboos against discussing religion in polite society.

Arguing that Bush is divorced from reality is subjective and futile. He can, and does, just as validly, employ the same argument.

The real problem is that premises (a) and (b) are inconsistent. It is silly to say that an omnipotent creator wants things to be other than the way they are.
xfrosch | 10.16.04 - 6:24 pm | #

(continued from previous post)... The nature of the admitted errors usually relates, not to going too far, but to not going far enough.

No-one in America believes John Kerry is the vessel of God's will. Many believe George Bush is just that. Beware of these people. They will be and are prepared to go the extra few yards to get their candidate elected. Don't rest on your laurels thinking that because Kerry won a debate, or even all of the debates, that somehow or other the scales will drop from the eyes of True Believers and they will see Bush for the fool that he is. The scales will stay firmly in place. Reason will not win any of these people over to Kerry. Stop patting yourselves on the back and thinking you've slam-dunked the arguments of the other side, and that they must concede defeat. They will not. Arguments don't matter. Debates don't matter. All that matters is faith, and George Bush embodies that faith to these people.

If John Howard can win on strength of character and certainty in an Australia that is much more skeptical, cynical and secular than religious America, then Bush, empowered by the voices in his head, and the voices in the heads of his right-wing Christian supporters across the heartland states, can win easily.

Easily.

Don't give up. Don't relax. Don't assume anything that relates to a triumph of common sense or judgement in these peoples' minds, or the mind of their hero. It's not there. There is only faith.

If I prayed, I would pray I'm wrong. That I don't pray makes me irrelevant to the Believers, who know I will rot in Hell, while Bush will literally sit at God the Father's right hand. If you think reason will win you this election, you're wrong. I've just seen reason take a vacation in Australia, and I think it's heading south in America as well.

Thus endeth the epistle from Australia.

P.S. One more similarity between Australia and America: Rupert Murdoch, Australian-born and Chariman of News Corporation, still a fully Australian company despite its "Stars and Stripes" image in America, wants media laws changed to his advantage in Australia, too. Howard introduced a policy quietly, without fanfare, on the last day of the campaign to do just that. You can guess who Murdoch's newspapers and TV outlets endorsed in the election, can't you?
Aussie Bob | 10.16.04 - 6:24 pm | #

You hate that your immorality is no longer tolerated, and neither are your biases.

Fuck you, you immoral, intolerant bastard.
pie | 10.16.04 - 6:29 pm | #

Doesn't Australia have mandatory voting?
rocket | 10.16.04 - 6:29 pm | #

He's in over his head, and he knows it, but he's going to try to get through on sheer bluster, because being publicly revealed as a failure and a weakling scares him more than anything else does. Hell, I bet nuclear war scares him a LOT less than that.

Phila, you are brilliant. Well said!
The thing that scared the shit out of me almost as much as that fundie mumbo-jumbo was his deep *faith* in his "Gut" (he's got plenty of that) and his "instincts".

Jeepers H. Christmas. The fool has been a miserable failure at virtually everything he has ever attempted!
bigvic | 10.16.04 - 6:29 pm | #

Belief in the Republican propaganda is not a disease, or a genetic mutation, or an accident. It is a moral choice. It is conscious and deliberate. It is the totalitarian impulse, which has been the same in every time and in every place. And any society that fails to punish it, wherever and whenever it arises, with a ferocity no less scarring to witness than to endure, shows a depraved indifference to its own survival.
Frank Wilhoit | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 6:30 pm | #

You liberals are just jealous of the fact real Americans are in charge again, who have morals and principles. You hate that your immorality is no longer tolerated, and neither are your biases.
Anonymous

I'm not going to insult or quibble with you, because I've finally realized that you need help:

"...cults make many promises to potential recruits in the initial phases of induction--it is often not until months or years later that the recruit realizes that these promises were ploys to gain their compliance. However, by that time, the member is already submerged in the group and likely in submission to and under the undue influence of its leadership."

The American Pyschiatric Association will probably be able to direct you to a deprogramming specialist.
GN | 10.16.04 - 6:30 pm | #

That's why Kerry was smart in the last debate to connect the faith vs. works issues. His response "That's why I fight for justice for the poor," was beautiful, and may hit some religious folks right between the eyes. One good question to ask fundies is what Bush *does* that's Christian. Not what he says, what he does. They have problems answering this question, in my experience.
NYMary | 10.16.04 - 6:30 pm | #

Oh, forgot unAmerican.

You're unAmerican, too.
pie | 10.16.04 - 6:30 pm | #

Maybe something truly horrific might make it happen eventually.

Something truly horrific like, say, another stolen election?
RCSanders | 10.16.04 - 6:32 pm | #

"You liberals are just jealous of the fact real Americans are in charge again, who have morals and principles. You hate that your immorality is no longer tolerated, and neither are your biases."

You know what, you stinking son of a bitch bastard? I don't give a rat's ass about what you overly charitably designate as your opinion. Your opinion is crap. You are an idiot who couldn't get into the Kingdom of God if you had a AAA map and were following a fat-backed, spavined goat. Reality bites.
GWPDA | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 6:34 pm | #

In Wilson's case, at least, didn't his wife run things when he was unable to? I'm kinda skeered of Presidnet Laura!

Heh heh. Good one. I'm kind a skeert a bofh of 'em.
bigvic | 10.16.04 - 6:34 pm | #

But when you have a personal relationship with Jesus, the resulting sense sometimes seems to be that you don't have to DO anything.
rocket | 10.16.04 - 6:35 pm | #

You are an idiot who couldn't get into the Kingdom of God if you had a AAA map and were following a fat-backed, spavined goat. Reality bites.

Even the baby Jebus is laughing.

Hilarious.
pie | 10.16.04 - 6:36 pm | #

for anyone interested in the what the evangelicals have in store for the country, i highly recommend mark crispin miller's book "cruel and unusual".
left wing conspirator | 10.16.04 - 6:36 pm | #

Maybe something truly horrific might make it happen eventually.

Something truly horrific like, say, another stolen election?
RCSanders | Email | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 6:32 pm |

No, I'm thinking nuclear war, environmental disaster, civilizational/religious war, or probably all 3 combined.
alias | 10.16.04 - 6:37 pm | #

So...that thing under Bush's jacket was just back fat??
rocket | 10.16.04 - 6:37 pm | #

GWPDA,

I just shot beer out my nose from your last post. Sweet baby jeebus, I needed a laugh after reading about the horror that is GWB.
bigvic | 10.16.04 - 6:37 pm | #

NYMary,

I agree with you that Bush *does* nothing Christian. Nothing he does is remotely Christian in the sense that I know it.

And I agree with the poster upthread who said Bush must be the anti-Christ, since he says he's Christian and he so clearly is not.
curly | 10.16.04 - 6:42 pm | #

I think the Suskind article understates the problem. Bush has said god speaks through him -- see http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-b...gi? ArtNum=57952

Whether delusion or hurbris, Bush is dangerous.
seajane | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 6:42 pm | #

You hate that your immorality is no longer tolerated, and neither are your biases.

Yep. Those great moral liberals like Rush. Bennett. O'Reily. Newdt.
Henry Hyde. Yawn.

That's all I have time for.
bigvic | 10.16.04 - 6:44 pm | #

I don't spend any of my time engaging fundies because life is too short to waste any of it dealing with the delusional, but I wonder how they might deal with this question:

When Satan comes, will he have horns and a tail, or will he appear to be a normal person? Will he announce that he is the Devil, or will he claim to be Godly? Will he be a taxi driver or a bellhop, or will he assume a position of great power? If Satan is so strong that even God cannot destroy him, wouldn't he assume the most powerful position on earth? Don't we have an apparantly normal person, who claims to be Godly, occupying the most powerful position on Earth? Isn't it obvious that George W. Bush IS Satan?

I think they think like that, don't they? I mean, I can't squeeze my mind into that shape, but I'm just sayin'.....
roxtar | 10.16.04 - 6:44 pm | #

The book of Revelations says the anti-Christ will be very, very popular among the people.
Aussie Bob | 10.16.04 - 6:47 pm | #

Again, today's GOP is, at the top levels, an organized crime syndicate (the GOPranos), and at the lower levels, a cult.

It will take years to win this war against reason and rationality. Which is why we must begin, as soon as Kerry takes office, to investigate, prosecute, and punish the many malfeasances of this administration. No more of this "the people are tired and want this to end" bullshit appeasement. We have watched for years as they became more and more brazen in their abuse of the public trust and their looting of the public till.

This is the first place where we as Kerry supporters are really going to have to hold Kerry's feet to the fire. Prosecuting is essential. Airing the dirty laundry in months of hearings will help de-program many people. Punishment of criminal activities will reverse the dangerous course we've been on since Iran-Contra was allowed to pass without recrimination.

And then...we can move on to re-instituting the Fairness Doctrine for media, smashing up media conglomerates and re-regulating OUR public airwaves. We're going to also have to substantively address the issue of campaign reform as well.

There is more work to be done after Kerry wins than there is now, and we're going to have to stay on the ball and in many cases pressure Kerry to do what must be done.

The battle has only just begun.
Jennifer | 10.16.04 - 6:47 pm | #

...today's GOP is, at the top levels, an organized crime syndicate (the GOPranos), and at the lower levels, a cult.

I think that's an utterly perfect description.
GN | 10.16.04 - 6:49 pm | #

There are plenty of Republicans that are not among the religiously insane; I know a few. How they reconcile their belief in logic and reason and thier support of Bush, I don't know. If you ask, they just deny that Bush really believes these things. They like those tax cuts, though.

Tony Snow was on Bill Maher's Real Time and he said that if Bush believed that he was receiving directions from God, then he was insane, but he claimed he had searched and searched, and could not find any evidence for this. Bush only said it to a foreigner, but Snow must have known about it.
Davis | 10.16.04 - 6:52 pm | #

Don't know about anyone else, but I didn't spend time and brain cells getting a bunch of training, walk my ass off knocking on strangers' doors, miss work to go to dem meetings, donate more than I could afford to, and all but drag people to the polls just to go back to my La-Z-Boy on November 3.

(The drag people to the polls part hasn't started yet, but give it 36 hours!! Early voting in TX begins Mon.)
rocket | 10.16.04 - 6:53 pm | #

There are plenty of Republicans that are not among the religiously insane; I know a few. How they reconcile their belief in logic and reason and thier support of Bush, I don't know.

...cults make many promises to potential recruits in the initial phases of induction--it is often not until months or years later that the recruit realizes that these promises were ploys to gain their compliance. However, by that time, the member is already submerged in the group and likely in submission to and under the undue influence of its leadership.
GN | 10.16.04 - 6:59 pm | #

How the hell does a person become a fundy? How warped must parents be to produce one? I assume that it has something to do with childhood -- fear, insecurity, intolerance, ignorance, domination, punishment. What is it?

Probably the most common characteristic I have found among the fundamentalists I have known is confusion about the nature of love.

Someone who has loved, and been loved, enough to know what authentic love is is not likely to be receptive to arguments that a Loving Creator is forced to condemn a percentage of his children to burn in hell For Great Justice.

Someone who has been taught by example that love is sex, or that love is passive resentment of someone to whom your are morally obligated, or that love is committing corporal violence against someone for his or her own good, or that love is toleration of someone whom you actually dislike or consider inferior or inconvenient, is susceptible to fundamentalist teaching.

Sustained or intense abuse are not required; just enough mixed messages to cause confusion. Once the confusion is there, the susceptibility has been established. From that point it's a matter of social opportunities.

There's usually no great blame to be laid to the parents. My own parents were concerned about my increasing religiosity, and tried to address it without interfering too much.
xfrosch | 10.16.04 - 7:01 pm | #

Suskind's article is flatly terrifying.
Bush fuckingBELIEVES he is the Creator's personal interlocutor. He fucking TALKS to God.
The President of the United States of America fuckingBELIEVES he fucking TALKS to God?

No. People on the street, pushing shopping carts, waving their arms at the heavens, shouting imprecations atr busses and passing traffic and leaving little trails of their urine on the pavement fucking BELIEVE THEY ARE fucking TALKING TO GOD

Sweet leaping JESUS...save this blighted land from the pit of this abysmal shit
Konopelli | 10.16.04 - 7:06 pm | #

It will take years to win this war against reason and rationality. Which is why we must begin, as soon as Kerry takes office, to investigate, prosecute, and punish the many malfeasances of this administration. No more of this "the people are tired and want this to end" bullshit appeasement. We have watched for years as they became more and more brazen in their abuse of the public trust and their looting of the public till.

I couldn't agree more. No more Mr. Nice Guy. No more *for the good of the country* thinking.

These assholes have destroyed a good part of my country. They've been a cancer, eating away at her HEART(land).

Enough. Time for a big dose of medicine.

Look out. Over the lips, over the gums, look out stomach, here it comes.
pie | 10.16.04 - 7:06 pm | #

You liberals are just jealous of the fact real Americans are in charge again, who have morals and principles. You hate that your immorality is no longer tolerated, and neither are your biases.

ok, asswipe, let's hear about your morals and principles.

I want a detailed list, motherfucker.

RIGHT GODDAMN NOW.

surely you've got them memorized.
theodoric | 10.16.04 - 7:08 pm | #

The Suskind article suggests that in addition to a personal history that predisposed him for that sort of behavior, some event caused Bush to change into 'infallible' leader we see now. That event was almost certainly 9/11.

Now why would that be?

The simplest explanation seems to come from cognitive dissonance theory:

Many studies have shown that people will subjectively reinforce decisions or commitments they have already made. (...) According to the theory, the possibility of being wrong is dissonance-arousing, so people will change their perceptions to make their decisions seem better.

It is entirely possible that they KNEW beforehand that something was coming, and they let it happen to push their agenda. Once it hit, with devastating results, the chosen course of action HAD to be the correct one, otherwise the man * saw in the mirror was a miserable failure and worse, a criminal. That, however, was inconceivable.

Immediately after 9/11, and before a single shot had been fired, neocons suddenly, repeatedly, and publicly started comparing * to Winston Churchill. The reason could very well be that they tried to help him reduce dissonance, by bringing up the historical precedent of Coventry.
Anonymous | 10.16.04 - 7:10 pm | #

if any of you happen to speak to a rational undecided, present the choice as falwell vs kerry because there is no difference between the policies of bush and those a falwell administration would implement.
left wing conspirator | 10.16.04 - 7:12 pm | #

Shit. Fuck. Damn. SCOTUS has a lot to answer for.

Just sayin.
Hecate | 10.16.04 - 7:16 pm | #

A friend sent this Presidential Prayer Team link: http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org/

I'm offering this prayer for them:

Dear Lord and Merciful Jesus. Help us now to gird our loins, and keep them safe, for the coming battle to smite thine foul enemies. And guide us in our technical transgressions, since Thou knowest we do it for Thy greater glory, and to rout the wicked among men. And when we burn the voter registration cards of Democrats, may it rise unto Thee as a sweet smelling oblation, as Thou hast promised to burn liberals and Sodomites in Thy eternal fires of Just Retribution. Heavenly Father, we beseech Thy blessing, as we threaten those who would beget evil in the voting booths. Lead us along the Path or Righteousness, as we transform their electronic votes into offerings pleasing in Your eyes, for candidates who want only to serve Thy most Holy Will. Help us to punish sinners with Divine wrath and vanguish those who trespass against Thee, forever and ever. Amen.
Pat | 10.16.04 - 7:17 pm | #

The majority of fundamentalist/literalist folks I've encountered over my near several score of years have had one common characteristic: their minds are uncluttered with ideas which do not connect directly to their orthodoxy, and their orthodoxy will admit none but one single interpretation of the Truth. Orthodoxy does to words what orthodentia does to teeth: it 'straightens' them, aligns them according to some pre-existing scheme.

asideBefore Heidegger, imho, hermeneutics was the terrain on which was staged the contest for meaning within a single canonical interpretation. Heidegger took it out into the world.)
Konopelli | 10.16.04 - 7:21 pm | #

The left is intellectually bankrupt: that is why all the right talks about is how anyone to the left of John McCain is a Leninite or Trotskyist revolutionary.
kei & yuri | 10.16.04 - 7:22 pm | #

People on the street, pushing shopping carts, waving their arms at the heavens, shouting imprecations atr busses and passing traffic and leaving little trails of their urine on the pavement fucking BELIEVE THEY ARE fucking TALKING TO GOD

John Kerry, when he joins in prayer at Mass, believes he is talking to God.

Now, I agree that Bush is dangerously deluded. But I think most of us would agree that it's possible to be a theist, and to talk to God, without being insane.
theodoric | 10.16.04 - 7:28 pm | #

Until I got tired of being told by fundamentalist parents when I raised questions:

You. Think. Too. Much.

Then, fortunately,they sent me off to college where they paid for me to think, and I think they've regretted it ever since!
Used to be Born Again | 10.16.04 - 7:28 pm | #

Goddamn! After reading Crowther's column, I feel like I need a cigarette! He said everything I've been trying to say to myself, everything I've wanted this country to hear.

One problem with this referendum is that the case against George Bush is much too strong. Just to spell it out is to sound like a bitter partisan. I sit here on the 67th birthday of Saddam Hussein facing a haystack of incriminating evidence that comes almost to my armpit. What matters most, what signifies? Journalists used to look for the smoking gun, but this time we have the cannons of Waterloo, we have Gettysburg and Sevastopol, we have enough gunsmoke to cause asthma in heaven. I'm overwhelmed.

And

Spirit | 10.16.04 - 7:28 pm | #

Help us now to gird our loins

It must be time to eat. I have pleasant visions of a big ol' pork loin.

Plus girding loins sounds kind of, well, sexy.
pie | 10.16.04 - 7:29 pm | #

(Post got cut off.)

I struggle against the suspicion that so many of my fellow Americans are conceptually challenged. I want to reason with my neighbors; I want to engage these lost Americans. What makes you angry, neighbor? What arouses your suspicions?

And

These are facts, not partisan rhetoric. Do any of them even make you restless? The cynical game these shape-shifters have been playing in the Middle East is too Byzantine to unravel in 1,000 pages of text. But the hypocrisy of the White House is palpable, and beggars belief. If there's one American who actually believes that Operation Iraqi Freedom was about democracy for the poor Iraqis, then you, my friend, are too dangerously stupid to be allowed near a voting booth.
Spirit | 10.16.04 - 7:30 pm | #

Just how arrogant is Bu$h? Most people of faith talk to God when they pray. This delusional fool thinks he is so singularly important that the almighty takes the time to speak directly to him.

Sorry Chimpy, but Jebus would never talked you into the fucking mess you got us into.
bigvic | 10.16.04 - 7:30 pm | #

My dears kei & yuri...
the left is not bankrupt.
it is an inapt metaphor.
tho the issue is fundamentally economic (Marx was not wrong about that), the metaphor is not of exchange but of value creation...

The Left has hit a barren patch, a drought, perhaps, a plague of locusts, pharoah's army on the march. The fields are sere, the cattle parched, the clouds distant and few. But i fear even for my very self if the discourse of liberty is exhausted, if freedom is for sale for pennies on the dollar.
Konopelli | 10.16.04 - 7:31 pm | #

theodo-rocks...actually i thought about that after i posted it... i sort of get it...but really i don't. I cant see anyway saying "okay god, i'm at my limit, tell me what to do?' is the proper basis for the President of the most powerful, most destructive, most belligerent, most aggressive nation the world has ever seen to base his foreign policy. You okay with that?
Konopelli | 10.16.04 - 7:37 pm | #

we were sarcastically quoting a propagandistic meaningless contruction, a bit of newspeak (they use a great many meaningless constructions like "intellectually bankrupt", "intellectually honest", "government" separated from articles, etc), not actually pretending that the only thing in politics with any ideas was out.
kei & yuri | 10.16.04 - 7:39 pm | #

dear kei & yuri
then thank you for letting me prosodize your deep implicatures...
Konopelli | 10.16.04 - 7:42 pm | #

Dear k&y
that last graph was sheer poetry, like a stanza of blank verse...c'mon admit it...heheh
Konopelli | 10.16.04 - 7:44 pm | #

bigvic, pie -
That's what happens when an absolutely born-to Celtic believing Presbyterian works into the third glass of whiskey - these clowns have no more idea of the nature of God, the afterlife -or- Chuy than the yellow line in the centre of the highway and rather than -study- and -think- and -learn-; rather than converse with those who might enlighten them, they'd rather go for the bubblegum version explanation that 'makes sense' and 'touches their soul'. Feh. Idiots. John Knox may have been a fool, but he was God's own fool - and these clowns are not.

Instead we have a madman without restraint in the White House and I'm back to counting the silverware, tying up my affairs and moving north. Idiots.
GWPDA | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 7:45 pm | #

I cant see anyway saying "okay god, i'm at my limit, tell me what to do?' is the proper basis for the President of the most powerful, most destructive, most belligerent, most aggressive nation the world has ever seen to base his foreign policy. You okay with that?

k,
well, sort of. I wish that's what he did. But to admit one doesn't have all the answers at least reveals self-reflection. Bush bases his (destructive, belligerent, aggressive) foreign policy on his (destructive, belligerent, aggressive) instincts and then claims he got it from some shit-kicking Old Testament god. That's fucked up.
NYMary | 10.16.04 - 7:59 pm | #

ron suskind will be on UNFILTERED on monday!
n69n | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 8:01 pm | #

Thanks, now I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight.
scott | 10.16.04 - 8:06 pm | #

I cant see anyway saying "okay god, i'm at my limit, tell me what to do?' is the proper basis...

well, I'd say that that's probably pretty much exactly what most people would have expected of, say, Roosevelt, or Truman, or Kennedy, faced with a really excruciating decision.

Nobody expects infinite wisdom from a President. In the past, however, it has been standard practice to expect good judgment.

I don't think that most people see theism as the problem. In fact, since most Americans are Protestant, I don't think they even see personal, exclusive relationships with God as the problem. Atrios started out with the postulate that there's a difference between believing in God and believing in the voices in your head.

I think the problem is that George W. Fuckup just plain scares the bejesus out of anybody with any sense.

(Personally, I don't have a horse in this race. My worldview has become fundamentally non-theist in recent years.)
theodoric | 10.16.04 - 8:12 pm | #

Crowther wrote:

The only way you "win" a war of occupation is the old-fashioned way, the way Rome finally defeated the Carthaginians: kill all the fighters, enslave everyone else, raze the cities and sow the fields with salt.

Sound like what we're doing in Samarra?
scott | 10.16.04 - 8:13 pm | #

The fratboy coward is the equivalent of Babylon 5's Emperor Cartagia. He is quite mad.
Gary Frazier | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 8:13 pm | #

Instead we have a madman without restraint in the White House and I'm back to counting the silverware, tying up my affairs and moving north. Idiots.

GWPDA, you are on fire tonite. I'm losing precious beer here.
bigvic | 10.16.04 - 8:13 pm | #

Isn't there a huge release of energy when reality comes into contact witn anti-reality?
Ilya Kuryakin | 10.16.04 - 8:17 pm | #

"Immediately after 9/11, and before a single shot had been fired, neocons suddenly, repeatedly, and publicly started comparing * to Winston Churchill."

Actually, you're wrong about that. Bush's first trip as "President" (I still get chills when I say that) was to London, and he wanted to visit the underground "war room" because, he said, he was a huge fan of Churchill's. "What a crock of shit!" I said to myself. "This clown doesn't even know who Churchill is. His staff probably told him to say that".

I remember that I felt very uneasy when he talked about it so pointedly, as though he was trying to underscore a point that would come up later. Of course, he was planning to go into Iraq long before 9/11, but it seemed on that London trip that he was trying to set the stage for him being a "war President". If they had expected to make a quick trip of Iraq, you know, the "flowers and candy" fantasy....then one has to wonder why he seemed to be setting us up for a LONG war, a particularly grim one at that.

There is a vault somewhere that holds video of Bush in the "war room", talking about Winnie in his irritatingly smirky way. If one could get a hold of that tape, one could probably intuit a great deal of scheming in the eyes of the smirker...
Thurber Hamm | 10.16.04 - 8:24 pm | #

This Crowthers dude is good. I'm sending it to the wingnuttery on my list.

The part about pre-apocolyptic Iraq gives me shivers of dread.
bigvic | 10.16.04 - 8:26 pm | #

Here's the thing. I'm waiting to get my hair cut the other day and overhear two women talking about the election. "I'm voting for Bush," one says. "Why?" the other asks. "I dunno. I just am."

The heart of that NYT piece is the description of the wide middle of America that doesn't read the papers, and doesn't particuarly like intellectuals. The most dangerous thing in a democracy is an ignorant public, and that's what we've got. The media companies (as Jon Stewart points out each show) contribute to this ignorance and if America crumbles under four more years, it will be their fault.

I'm scared to death for my kids and for my country. I truly am.
Jeff D | 10.16.04 - 8:41 pm | #

This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them.

I am so very, very sad that it took this long for this obvious fact to even begin to sink into the media's thick skulls.
blu | 10.16.04 - 8:42 pm | #

bigvic, save your beer. Indeed, SAVE YOUR BEER.

I'm to supper and then to a fine evening of watching Mountie on the Bountie because, quite honestly, my belly's beat blue and I cannot take any more.

Do any of you realise what will happen if I'm forced back into Grandmother Country as a result of all this? I DO NOT LIKE RYE WHISKY. Pfui. The snow's flying now, in Midway and Pincher Creek. Damn these people. But there it will be and there will be I with nought to do but nought.

Pfui. The snow's flying in Midway and Pincher Creek. Damn these people.
GWPDA | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 8:43 pm | #

Wow, amazing. Go Crowther! I grew up in his county (Orange Co, NC.) and read the Indipendant every week in high-school. We had him come and speak once, and that makes his words all the more pertinant, if you can hear them in his sort of grizzled voice. I'm so proud of North Carolina at this moment.

Which isn't to belittle the Suskind article either. It takes a hell of a writer to convey that sort of scope and still leave a definite (and in this case correct) feeling of lurking dread.
kid kameleon | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 8:47 pm | #

Suskind's piece was great but Crowther got it just right. Finally. I've just voted (we all vote by mail in Washington state) and I'm afraid that this may be the last time any American actually gets to vote. And I'm also very much afraid that people in Florida and other battleground states won't have their votes counted unless they're Republican votes.
Strait Woman | 10.16.04 - 8:55 pm | #

The language about 'reality' in that piece is deeply distressing.

'The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality...."'

Here's my analysis:

This goes to the heart, four years later, of the massive irregularity that was the 2000 elections. We had an election in which the difference in the totals for the two major candidates was very small indeed, and there was real question as to whether the count had been precise and accurate enough to determine who had won the plurality of votes. But in the crisis as it developed, the Dems took the stance that a recount should be held, and the Repubs, memorably, did everything in their authority and in their power to block a recount. They succeeded.

Look at this now in light of the paragraph above. This is the same issue. A recount would have been exactly a solution emerging from the judicious study of discernible reality, the reality in question being the ballots. The blocking of the recount was a refusual of such a solution.

But that much is history. The Republicans did come to power, and in fact one can disagree with me that the High-Court-driven resolution to the matter of the 2000 election was a power grab or in any way inapproprite and yet still find the point I'm about to make a compelling one.

This is the crux: democracy is a reality-based system in the sense used by the aide quoted above. Polling to determine the will of the electorate is _a_solution_emerging_ from_the_judicious_study_of _discernible_reality_ in the form of ballots or other representation of the will of the electorate. An administration that does not buy into solutions emerging from the examination of this kind of reality is an administration fundamentally opposed to democracy.

Let me repeat that last point so everyone gets it:

_An administration that does not accept solutions emerging from the examination of reality does not accept the legitimacy of democracy._

This should scare people.

Furthermore, it's a point that could potentially be made to people on the fence who would be alienated by arguments invoking Nazis, fascism, theories about insanity, whatever. If anyone out there knows someone who might be swayed by this, use it.
obscure shore bird | 10.16.04 - 8:56 pm | #

Narcissist + Ignoramus + Wealth = Bush

__
hlm | 10.16.04 - 9:00 pm | #

WTF?

I just have to repeat, what others have said, that THIS, is just completely freaky: (from Suskind)

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
Ruttiger | 10.16.04 - 9:01 pm | #

After reading Suskind. I'm really scared. Also please read article on Rove in The Atlantic
my pet goat | 10.16.04 - 9:23 pm | #

in 1971, early in the run up to the bicentennial, I was told by my seventh-grade history teacher that the average lifespan of an empire was about 200 years.
theodoric | 10.16.04 - 9:27 pm | #

It's going to be just like Viet-nam years. The President rebuffed UN Secretary U Thant. Canada and Sweden took the pacifists. France welcomed some emigres. There was a run on the dollar. The British kept their distance. The difference will be that there is no Soviet Union with its retaliatory capacity to scare the pants off the conservative whack jobs in Washington if they go too far.

nur al cubicle | Email | Homepage | 10.16.04 - 4:49 pm | #

But there IS a superpower which iscountering our actions, and it is called I-slam!!!
I-slam is not a nation, I-slam does not have conventional military parity, but I-slam is potent.
Mark my words: this is a ifght to the finish between the USA and I-slam. Thank you, George W Bush and Osama bin Laden!
Sam I Am | 10.16.04 - 9:34 pm | #

First off - no re-education camps people! To defeat the nazi's by becoming nazi's... well I think that says it all. And thank you big-A. I was wondering when someone would realise what's happening with these people. I also see alot of good information here, and I'd like to add to it and link it together in a way with some more information...

If you talk to fundies over a period of years - actually make him or her rationalize (yes, they can rationalize - everyone can regardless of the shit education system in this country) you might find a weakness - exploit it! Over and over again! Every day if possible, or every weekend if not. Call them, keep pounding them with their own inconsistencies (especially from the Bible). Most of the people who support Bush or repubs in general really don't know any better - fundie or not - talk to them for christ-sake!

Also, the way fundies make more fundies is not complex. First, a high birthrate. Second, poverty. Third, addiction. It's a real simple formula people. Just look at what fundies did to the Peoples of the First Nations... find a good history book or look into what's happened in the Amazon over the last 50 years and you'll find more than you thought about fundie policy just in their dealings with the Peoples.

And lastly - how to cure them? Well, first - create prosperity! Prosperity spread to as many as possible (scratch that - prosperity for all is possible) kills fundies, simple as that. Look at Canada - we see all kinds of freaks - and we see them for what they are (hell, many fundies are based IN Canada). But we have prosperity. Sure, we have 10% unemployment - but 99% of our population is fed, sheltered, literate, and... respected. People who are expousing real warnings however are also seen and heard! Sure we could do better - that 1% pisses me off - but so could this country. Baring prosperity, expose them out loud!

Don't feel it's not "nice" or "correct" to disrepect this sickness. When a religion becomes propaganda - it's a SICKNESS and it's WRONG! Take away their weapons (talking points on taxes, education "reform", health care, defense, etc.) with the truth (have supporting evidence or research yourself and make some - as long as it's the truth) and be as adamant as they are. They only number maybe 4 million hard core "vectors" that have spread outwards to softer supporters - but at a ratio of 10:1 at least (keep that in mind for a moment). Where the hell are the 40 million or so intelligent progressives and liberals?

Stress out their support system - and hard! It will collapse. It's spread too thin already (3:1 would be strong, but 10:1 is very weak and it may even be at 40:1). Write the media, start a blog, volunteer at a soup kitchen (especially a fundie christian one - sometimes you have to fake it) and speak to people little by little. It will take years, heck, it will take decades! But it has to be done if you really give
Mike | 10.16.04 - 9:38 pm | #

a crap about the future of this republic. Quit preaching to the converted - they aren't the problem. Preach to the "converted" - because they are!

I also highly recommend any number of Anne Wilson Schaef books to anyone who doesn't get it because they will afterwards.
Mike | 10.16.04 - 9:38 pm | #

An interesting irony- George Bush is more Papal than the Pope. He has infallibility, ( no wrong judgement, no mistakes), impeccability, ( can't do any wreong), and is an elected vessel of the Lord's will.
Ironic that fundamentalists and evangelicals treat Bush with the type of reverence Roman Catholics are reputed to have for the Pope.
evagrius | 10.16.04 - 10:02 pm | #

It's fascism pure and simople. The most chilling passages in the article could have been taken from any number of fascist writings from the 1920s and 1930s. It's the real thing. Forget fundamentalism: that is an epiphenomenon. The real thing is the doctrine that the will overcomes the fact. (Thank you Dr. Hegel). I've sensed this for some time -- several years. Suskind's article nailed it for me. We have home-grown fascism -- the real article. We don't recognize it because we associate it with Europe. This is our own misshapened baby. How we engendered it is something we will have to study after the election, if we are allowed to study such stuff. Right now, the work is to kill it.
Knut Wicksell | 10.16.04 - 10:27 pm | #

Have people started to truly ask yourselves what will I do if bush is re-elected? People need to think about this.
Anonymous | 10.16.04 - 10:44 pm | #

I haven;t had time ti read the entire article, but I fervently disagree with the contetnion that the Repugs will have a "civil war." NFW! The entire party is controlled by the fascio-fundamental wing. Who;s going to lead the "other side," the classic libertarian repugs. Certainly not that fucking hypocrite McCain, nor Olypia Snow nore Linc Chafee. They are cowed cowards. Bullshit! This is why i refuse to ever vote for any fucking repug again for any office-- not even dogcatcher--it just gives power to the movement. The goddamn fundamentalists will just feed off the damn increase of party power-- the bastards are just like fucking Voldemort. Fucking Ghandi could run for President and if the bastard was a Repug, I'd vote for ABG!!!!
mvp1961 | 10.16.04 - 10:45 pm | #

sorry about the typos and the profanity in my previous post, but BOY AM I PISSED! Kerry must WIN! Three weeks and alot of shit still to be slung.

On the positive side, got my Oregon vote by mail ballot today and voted, and mailed it before the last mailbox pickup! Voted for Democrats and liberal "non-partisans" up and down the ticket. Vote against the constitutional amendment to "defend marriage," voted against the bs doublespeak measure to "defend property rights" etc, etc. You know if they put a constitutional amendment on the ballot to stone adulterers I might actually vote for that--but only if Falalfel O'Reilly moved back to Oregon!

MVP!
mvp1961 | 10.16.04 - 10:51 pm | #

Dear Leader has put us into a faith-based war. Those suckers can be long-lasting and don't result in unconditional surrender.
Leif Rakur | 10.16.04 - 11:11 pm | #

What in the hell is the matter with y'all? W accepted JC as his personal savior in the Midland Holiday Inn coffeshop. Now of course, ole JC talks to him.... the question is have you accepted JC as your personal savior? And people ask me why I live in the Northeast.. it is because of bullshit like that -- and those true believers are hell bent on killing folks.... yeah good ole Christian white boys -- just killing them coloreds and meskins all the time caus the LORD ALMIGHTY TOLE EM TA DEW IT. WHO NEEDED A PLAN IN IRAQ -- "W" didn't cause the Lord told him he'd be raptured -- afore it done got bad.
El Mascaro | 10.17.04 - 1:17 am | #

"The majority of fundamentalist/literalist folks I've encountered over my near several score of years have had one common characteristic: their minds are uncluttered with ideas which do not connect directly to their orthodoxy, and their orthodoxy will admit none but one single interpretation of the Truth. Orthodoxy does to words what orthodentia does to teeth: it 'straightens' them, aligns them "

--I must also add, that the majority of fundies I know, while claiming to believe that the Bible is the literal inerrant word of God, have never really read and understood what the much of that book has had to say . . . except for the parts that their pastors/leaders and religious culture selectively tell them are important or choose to emphasize.

--As for the Suskind article, I think the most amazing thing about it is the up front admission by the Administration person who said, "Look, we're an empire now" and then went on to say, effectively, therefore we can do any goddamned thing we want. Essentially, he's saying that his they can CREATE reality any way they see fit, given how powerful they think they are.

--What is amazing about this is the implications that: 1) they are all-powerful and that 2) they therefore have the power to create reality.

--The last I checked, the only being that had that kind of power was the actual God. In essence, these people are claiming that THEY ARE GOD, as if they have the power to determine the operation of the laws of the universe. This is insanity and megalomania, pure and simple. And it is dangerous as hell.

--Historically, that kind of hubris has led to all sorts of problems for both individuals and empires. Think of the Roman Emperor Nero, for starters. Or think of the recurring theme in Classical Greek literature of how the gods consistently punish the hubris of mortals who attempt to claim for themselves those prerogatives reserved only for the gods. And, after all, what does the Bible these people claim to believe say about pride going before the fall?
Jeremiah Elias | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 2:18 am | #

When you believe in things that aren't real, that can't be seen, that lie in the future, you're either a prophet or a maniac.

I don't think George W. Bush is a prophet.
Jon Koppenhoefer | 10.17.04 - 3:42 am | #

Who the heck is that official who said that 'following history' stuff? It totally sounds like Rove, but he's not an 'official', is he?

I mean, that stuff is just mad bravado. It's essentially just saying to Ron:

"Listen, we're running shit - now and forever. We are all-powerful. Don't you get it?!"

Awesome stuff...
Peter | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 5:01 am | #

its nice to read such articles once in a while, but i believe it is based on a false premise: that GWB is running the show -- anyone who has been paying the least bit of attention knows that President Dick Cheney has been calling the shots from day one, i.e, 9/11/2001.

George "Wired" Bush serves Cheney in the capacity as the ultimate weapon of mass distraction.

down with the neo-cons!
x174 | 10.17.04 - 6:48 am | #

Bush is not Churchill, like he thinks.
Bush is not Reagan Lite as the wingers think.
Bush is Cromwell, and is in the process of destroying the country to save it, cause God told him to.
peteypuck | 10.17.04 - 7:01 am | #

Holy Merde! I just read the Susskind article and I think it may be the most terrifying thing I've read about Bush ever! This guy has GOT to go. I don't know what else to do at this point, though. Everyone I know is voting for Kerry. We've all given money. We're all volunteering in various capacities to make sure the election isn't stolen (again). It's very frustrating because I don't know what else I can possibly do to send this messianic freak back to Texas. Sorry, just need to rant. That article is freaking me out and it's too early to have a soothing adult beverage.
Need some wood? | 10.17.04 - 8:07 am | #

"If Bush wins, there will be a civil war in the Republican Party starting on Nov. 3" So the "modernist" wing of the party is so hell-bent on holding on to power that they are willing to give these messianic creeps four more years? Lovely. In 2008, when the country is in tatters, "modernists" like Rudy Giuliani will ask for my vote, all the while trying to distance themselves from the "fundamentalist" wing of the Republican party. And do you know what I will do? Run video of Guiliani at the RNC recounting his September 11th experiences and saying, "Thank God George Bush is my president." Over and over and over again.
Need some wood? | 10.17.04 - 8:38 am | #

So the country's being run by people who think like those nut-loon parents of sick kids who won't give their kids medicine, preferring to rely on God's will. We all know what happens to those kids if unless someone from the "reality-based" world steps in. Absolutely terrifying.
flabbergasted | 10.17.04 - 10:25 am | #

We've elected Greg Stilson as President.

And with his re-election, we'll be on our way from the Twilight Zone to the Dead Zone.
TheFlamingModerate | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 4:48 pm | #

Matthews continued to demonstrate his slide narcicisstic dementia with Susskind today on Lardball.
He asked if Susskind 'actually believed' the evangelicals think Bush is a messianic messenger. Susskind replied 'Chris you have to get out more.' Matthews then gave one of his usual smug 'in the know' looks and suggested 'I don't think so...'
Then went on to demonstrate what it looks like when the vessel is full of holes and the engineers don't notice because their having dinner with the captain.
Disgusting.
fancourt | 10.18.04 - 8:43 pm | #

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