I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
first?
Having a strong "message" is rather contrary to liberal ideals. I hope as sullivan says that the union can break down into red states and blue states. You want dope illegal? fine! it is crime! don't smoke it. We, over here, on the other hand, will. (same for all the other divisive issues).
Since america didn't work as one country (leaving europe to show how it might be done) then have it work as 50 countries.
Well you're right, Atrios. Truth to tell, while I still love John Kerry, he didn't do anything to help put our message out there because apparently we haven't made it clear yet.
Tell you what, though - I've thought for the last several weeks that in a lot of ways we are better off being the gadflies right now, and not the status quo.
That said, what I find so hard is not that we lost here, because if it was just a question of what happens here, I could live with the loss a whole lot easier.
Ow. Ow. Ow.
Time to regroup and hit em again. We'll win in 2 years and again in 4, if there is anything left...
Bless you, Atrios. How you can continue to blog amazes me - I am barely able to read anything and I've had the TV on HGTV all day to avoid the disaster.
Some commentator last night (Novak? Greenfield?) was saying we need to accept the reality of the "solid south" and deal with it somehow. When you think about the various ways that the GOP panders to it in code-speak like state's rights, traditions, and so on, I hope this isn't high on our agenda. We have other arrows in our quiver, and we win nothing by shaping ourselves to fit them.
It's not a deodorant we're marketing here.
OT Blog whoring: Anyone give any thought to the rest of the Osama Bin Laden video? I think he was gaming us, and so was the State Department by insisting that it not be released.
"We need to figure out just what our ideas and message are"
Gee, I thought "the truth" would do it.
Let's face it, we're living in a republic of the stupid, by the stupid, for the stupid.
I'm just going to shoot myself in the mouth, for the good of the country.
One thing to keep in mind is that they are willing to do anying -- lie constantly and brazenly, out CIA agents, use Mary Cheney as a pawn, election fraud, etc -- and we won't.
Pixie - No offense, I don't aim this at you, but since you mentioned TV, let me say this: Fuck TV.
Kill your televisions.
I know you won't, but you really should.
Yep, you guys vote your values and you are beautiful and idealistic, we vote our values and we are evil scum. Yeah, you're going to win back the hearts of America with ideas like that. Way to engage those with whom you disagree.
It's a funny thing, but what terrifies me most today, is that Congress will enact Patriot 11 and blogs like Eschaton will be banned as subversive.
Think of how alone we would all feel then.
Is there a contingency plan should such a travesty occur?
I keep telling myself that the McCarthy era was pretty horrific, but America lived through that and grew stronger, better.
Look, It's very simple. Time to go after them. Time to be implacable, determined, to fight every inch of ground. Time, history and the truth are with us. this is the beginning of a 30 years war. We shall win
People are actually quoting Andrew Sullivan about this?
WTF? What about people on the left who LIVE in 'red' states? I don't want the bigots and racists to impose their will on ME. That is fucking why we have the BILL OF RIGHTS.
Jeez. What the hell are we doing people?
Time for the Dems to stop this nice guy game. It has been said by many, many times before. Time for the rest to listen.
Dig in. Be a minority party. Stand up and shout. Call them liars. Call them Bigots. Homophobes. Xenophobes.
CALL IT LIKE IT IS!
No more nice guy politics. This shit is too important.
I can't believe such a grim picture of America- if 51% really do "hate fags", why does Bush have to speak in codewords to his base (ie, "Dred Scott"?) Why not just come out and say, "We're throwing fags in jail. We're putting abortionists on trial." I'd say there are about 20% who think that way- the other 30% who don't believe that but voted for Bush are getting fooled, and the media won't help get them unfooled.
As for all that money- I'm very depressed that the hundreds of millions spent on Dem ads went into the pockets of Sinclair et al. to no avail.
Anon, that's clearly not how it's going to be, Sullivan continues to delude himself- witness Ashcroft overrulling assisted suicide and medical marijuana laws in western states.
I think we should put FDRs Four Freedoms at the top of the list of what we stand for: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom from Fear, Freedom from Want, everywhere in the world. Go read about FDR's speech and then read the text. Click Homepage.
He gave that speech when the world was still suffering the Great Depression and the lights were going out all over Europe, early 1941.
We've seen darker days and come through them. It'll be a struggle but we can do it.
The message is important, progressives have a proud history in this country, but the fact that none of our candidates are willing to be labeled as a liberal tells you all you need to know about how far we have to go.
I thought Bruce Springsteen spelled it out pretty good in Cleveland Monday night. Maybe he should have been our candidate 
Grieve today. Fight tommorrow.
Can't wait to see the assholification of the U.S. That'll be good for business, tourism, higher education, science, interpersonal relationships, etc.
Read George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant." It's about ideas--frames--driven home by a succinct vocabulary.
Change the language and you change the culture.
So much for "Onward", I guess.
I don't want to hear the carping because I don't think we did so badly as all that and a circular firing squad now only helps Republicans. 48% in a year in which - protestations to the contrary - the economy is growing solidly and there's a war, is a pretty good showing. We held most of what we had 4 years ago and avoided a rout. If we were Republicans, we'd immediately set to work consolidating our strengths and sharpening our message, looking for openings and issues.
For example: the Republicans beat us with anti-gay ballot measures that brought the bigots to the polls. Do we have any issues to put on state ballots next time that will bring out Democratic constituencies?
He can't govern for shit, but Bush ran a great campaign. We did good, but they turned out more people. Learn how it was done. Copy it next time.
He speaks in code because it energizes the fringe while remaining meaningless and non-offensive to those in the middle.
No offense taken, Tena. I know I should, but my household couldn't function without Nickelodeon.
"Message" may contrary to liberal ideas, but the fact is that you have different levels of awareness, consciousness and interest. It is a fact of human nature. Rather than thinking of it as a message, think of it as a story.
It is the way most people comprehend the world and life (I should say, think they comprehend). As a narrative. Think Woodie Guthrie, Jesus, Dickens, Aesop, Socrates, etc.
Our curse as humans is that we are trapped in time and we are forced to interpret life as a sequence of events - a story - and when we can't figure out that story we feel lost. The right-wing (like the WWF) has an intuitive understanding of this (think "left behind", good vs evil, gov't bad, taxes bad, etc. They give people a nice simple way of understanding the world. That it is false and going to create a ton of uneccessary pain and suffering is unfortunately irrelevant.
We need to realize this. We need stories/narratives.
In the wake of disaster, what are we to do? I woke up this morning, barely able to pull myself out of bed in my depressive state. I had some initial thoughts about the disaster last night and things that we absolutely must change:
First, foremost, let us begin with a strong media scrutiny of both the electoral processes in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico - let us not take Kerry's concession speech as a proxy to stop a very, VERY necessary accountancy of the voting tally in these states. We have a responsibility to carry out the task if only to preserve our individual and party integrity (should we have any left).
Secondly, the focus on Diebold requires a maximal level of media attention and grass-roots pressure. We cannot allow Diebold's voting technology to consistently squash federal elections and turn voters away from the voting process as it did in the March "Super Tuesday" primaries in California (see this link for more details about potential civil and criminal penalties that Diebold may have incurred as per a report by a state voting advisory panel in California just this last April before our big election: http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com...ss/8489176.htm)
Next, we are going to need to start grooming a line of stronger, more pugnacious, and more crafty democrats. I don't mean to be Machiavellian here, but we are getting beat because we attempt to live within the rules and encourage others to while our opponents casually shake off any civil obligations in pursuit of their goals. While the republicans treat old and new election legal guidlines like seasonal fashion-wear (something to be dropped as soon as it's no longer "en vogue"), we tend hold some kind of conviction to matching all of our political clothing up to some fictitious timeless style. Let us drop the pretense towards traditional cooperative politics, and let us commence with an agenda that respects winning as much as the other side does. The social programs that support America's working class combine into a prize that is fit for us to win - but the contest is on new ground and requires new tactics and strategies that are capable of dealing with the comming storm of political double-speak that is about to be unleashed upon us. Now more than ever, we need to master the fluency of this language, because so much hangs in the balance of it.
Finally, the DLC must have its back broken. It has gotten us nowhere except, by exerting its strength, to shift the american left's center of gravity over to the right on the political spectrum. "Welfare Reform"? "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"? This is where Zell Miller type democrats implant their hooks into us, later come to rip us apart by digging into our house/senate voting constituency. They also create counter-party advocates who boom their voices in unison with the opposition and slit our throats from within our own party. These hacks must go, as must the hack-promotion machine which is the wo
Alterman's article was interesting, but seemed more a diatribe against our conception of the "sheeple" who narrowed the race enough for Bush to steal. Although there is certainly an element of this country which fits soundly into Alterman's caricature, to buy into his argument, we would have to ignore the gross ignorance of much of the Bushist population which was cultivated by the mainstream media. Alterman's analysis thus pretty much gives a pass to the mainstream media which (1) facilitated a war; (2) continues to obscure the reality of the war, the economy, and Bush policy; and (3) in its facilitation of Bushism and determination to avoid real analysis, sends a message to the populace that lack of skepticism is okay. We need not allow legitimate complaints concerning the failures of our institutions to become merely a "sore losers" mantra. Lets not allow a Rovian "see, most of the country is as evil as me" reality-creation to permeate those who continue to resist the bloodless coup of Bushism. Sure, there are those who are rotten and thus vote for representatives who resemble their foulness. But there are also many who have been mind-numbed to reality. Let's not confuse these groups. Obscuring reality is a tool of this administration; let's not adopt their asserted view of the populace.
George Bush's America: Welcome to Germany, 1933.
**** Be a minority party. Stand up and shout. Call them liars. Call them Bigots. Homophobes. Xenophobes.
CALL IT LIKE IT IS!
No more nice guy politics. This shit is too important.****
Wow, that approach will no doubt win many converts in the midwest and south. Radical idea here but how about adopting a set of policies that might actually appeal to red-state voters?
the rhetoric in your posting is offensive.why do you have to refer to the president as a "right wing asshole".that is offensive and abrasive and does nothing to further a mutually beneficial dialouge about the issues. it also reflects a lack of education and a lack of refinement.can you imagine jfk or fdr publicly attaching that appelation to an opponent intheir time. i dont think so as they each had class.reading through various left blogs today i believe i can identify why the left is in such a state of disarray.the left believes that anyone who disagrees with it is ignorant and in need of intellectual guidance and illumination. you give the hoi polloi no credit for any innate intelligence and are troubled that some one could deviate so much from your deeply held beliefs.DId you ever stop and think that the guy who labors quietly at walmart might have a pretty good idea of his own about what is right priper moral and just,jjj
Hallelujah. I've been saying this for years, and it was one of the reasons I gave up on Gore. *AND* it was one of the reasons I drank the John Kerry Kool-Aid. Swilled it. Volunteered. Knocked on doors. Yard sign, bumper stickers. All for the first time.
Because I really believed that the Democrats were finally coming out for truth, justice, and the American way. Not for labor, and not for trees, and not for Jewish grannies. But for Democracy, dammit. And merely because we lost is no excuse to stop holding these ideals as exemplars for all Americans to follow. Reclaim the legacy of Thomas Jefferson.
Well, speaking to Americans on behalf of the rest of the world (no hubris here, uh-huh):
America has endorsed Bush. America has endorsed the torture of prisoners, the abuse of civil rights, illegal invasions killing over 100,000 civilians, and the rape of its national treasury to make the rich richer.
America can no longer claim to be great or good. It is simply powerful and grubby, much like the old Soviet Union. It can no longer claim to be a beacon for the world. Much, indeed most of the world despises what it has become. And it can no longer claim to be an example for others.
Ever.
Your people have endorsed Bush and his policies.
You deserve the consequences. I have no sympathy for what's going to happen to you over the next four years.
So, you want to know what the next four year will be like? How about a little preview from a right-wing blog:
"o, George W. Bush won. And he’s done so by a solid margin. The Democrats’ attempted coup managed to last all of eight hours. Not only is the President the first candidate to win a majority of the vote in a Presidential Election since 1988, but he also won more popular votes than any other candidate in history. The Democrats spent months telling us that high voter turnout would equal a win for them but, as it turns out, when 60% of the electorate showed up at the polls it translated into a Bush lead of nearly four million votes. In short: take that, you sons of bitches.
The Democrats are now talking about how this is a signal that Bush should “bring the country together”. Translated into American, this means “now that you’ve won, you should surrender to us.” The hell with that. We’ve won. Winning means not having to say you’re sorry. Bush already brought a majority of Americans together: they voted for him. He doesn’t need to reach out to them: they need to reach out to him.
If anyone needs to work to “bring the country together” it’s those on the left who have divided it so badly. Those who sought to destroy this great man should get down upon their knees and beg the victors for mercy. And maybe, just maybe, we’ll let a few of them linger on for the simple reason that they amuse us. My life’s goal is to see the Democratic Party virtually obliterated and left as a rump of people like Stephanie Herseth who both mostly agree with us anyways and are easy on the eyes.
That’s the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women."
http://www.adamyoshida.com/2004/...t-you-
sons.html
How's that for winning with grace and style?
I see only clouds and storms.
"Why not just come out and say, "We're throwing fags in jail. We're putting abortionists on trial."
So long as this is how poorly Democrat activists understand those that vote against them, they're doomed to many, many gloomy day-after-election-days...
Take a long, long look in a mirror....
"They" are not stupid, evil, scum, idiots, etc. Until we accept that 51% of the country sees things differently than us without demonizing them we'll be doomed to last place.
Answer this one question and come up with a way to embrace the solution in our party and we will win again - "Why do people vote against their better interest?" What is the underlying fear/need/desire/want/craving/whatever that lets someone on minimum wage vote for someone who will increase their taxes, reduce their standard of living, and make it harder to get by?
Answer that question without just copping out and calling them evil and stupid and we'll start making progress again.
Atrios says, "The people who voted George Bush and the Republicans into office ... did so precisely because he is a right wing asshole."
This may be true for a significant chunk of the electorate, but NOT all of it.
Many people in blue states voted for Bush because Kerry didn't resonate with them, or didn't move them to vote against Bush and for Kerry.
Don't play into Rush Limbaugh's stereotype of liberals as being a bunch of judgemental holier-than-thou's. Sure Bush brought the bigot vote, but it is a mistake to tar ALL of his supporters with that brush. Don't fall for it.
Let's hope Obama is not all hype because right now he seems like the best prospect.
The other possiblities - Dean, Edwards and Hillary.
Dean:
I would love to see Dean run in 2008, but it is possible the ganging up against him by the DNC establishment has hurt his mainstream base. This is a guy who was not a radical lefty, yet because he had a strong base of vocal young supporters, some of whom were genuinely radical lefties attracted to Dean's sensible war position, he was branded as a radical lefty by his own party. Terry BigMac wanted to end the primaries fast and the party has paid for it because it didnt give a candidate a chance to learn from his mistakes. If the dem establishment defended Dean's scream, it would have blown over like many of Chimpo Bush's many goofy verbal gaffes and stammering. The dems like Donna Brazille and Carville shamelessly showed contempt for Dean on network TV programs making him open target for Repubs and Dems.
But now, people are realizing his statements weren't so wacky after all. So what if Dean loses states like GA 70-30? does it matter? What counts is a candidate who can maintain the Gore states and take Florida and two or three of the following - Ohio, WI, NM, NH.
HIllary: I don't know why she is being hyped. She was a terrible team player this election season. She looked out for herself. She defended the war shamelessly even though she wasn't even campaigning for president. Imagine how safe she would play it if she were campaigning for Prez. I don't care that right wings hate her. They wouldn't vote for even a pseudo neocon like Lieberman. But Hillary does have serious negative ratings with even moderates. On the bright side, she does fire up the Clintonites. But I personally hope she doesn't run.
Edwards: The guy is a cipher. All style and the style wears thin. His wife seems brighter in interviews and is more genuine. It's a shame she wasn't running. He shamelessly shilled for the war and then did a bigger flip flop than Kerry. I remember no ambiguity in Edwards when he supported the war. Even Kerry is more genuine about his intentions and I don't quite buy Kerry's excuses fully. Edwards hasn't come up with any great ideas. He is not free trader like Dean. So I don't see how this guy meets the moderate test.
Well There you have it. OBAMA. Obama will clean up the black vote in FLorida with huge turnouts. Kerry's people did a fine job getting the black vote out, but they realized the importance a little late. With Obama, he should be able to get the margin needed to beat a repub in Florida. Obama has no negative baggage yet. He is a very good speaker and does well in interviews where he is quick to come up with an answer.
It's only natural for the left NOT to have a clear message; We are all encompassing. We can have clear messengers though and clear messengers have to LEAD. To lead, you need to take some risks. I'm not convinced that Democratic "leaders" can do that after 2000, 2002, and 2004.
I'm not being holier than thou at all.
I posted this on the last thread, but I think it's more appropriate to this one.
I'm not sure I agree with Atrios on this. At least not entirely. Yes, I think the homophobic voters knew exactly what Bush is about, but I do want to point out the study by the Univ. of Maryland that suggests that Bush voters really don't know what they're supporting in Bush.
I think it will be helpful to keep this in mind as we think about how to fight back.
Link to study under "Homepage"
I feel like I have two choices now, violent revolution or leaving this country. To stay and do nothing is to live as a hypocrite. I am taking all of my positivity and sharpening it to a point. I want nothing but the worst for this country now. It is clear that the only thing that will enlighten half this country is for them to be shaken to the core about their own security. I want the economy to collapse, all out war in the middle east and our children to be drafted. Things obviously have to get much worse before they get better.
DId you ever stop and think that the guy who labors quietly at walmart might have a pretty good idea of his own about what is right priper moral and just,jjj
john janse
Thank you, john janse, you have successfully terrified me as to where the future of our nation lies.
I sincerely wish Atrios would put up a poll that asks: Do you think the 2004 Presidential election was conducted in a truly honest fashion?
My own sense is that Bush probably really did get more votes - based on the reported vote totals and the pre-election polls - but I also think that the system was gamed in such a way that Bush would have ended up being declared the winner regardless.
The Democratic Party, to my mind, is starting to look more and more like the Washington Generals to the Rethugs Harlem Globetrotters. With elections evolving to little more than an entertaining - but ultimately meaningless - spectacle.
For those who don't agree, I'd like to inquire on what evidence? We've got the widespread use of black box electronic voting systems that use proprietary software and produce no audit trail. Under these circumstances, how can we truly have any confidence in the integrity of the system?
If there is another issue more urgently deserving of our attention than this one, I'm hard put to see what it is.
..
I've been struggling with how to frame this thought: What strikes me, in all of the GOTV work I've done in the past year, is how many people simply don't give a shit, and worse, there is NO way to engage those people.
It almost seems to me to come down to a tribal narcicism. People (even many of we 'progressives') are so focused on themselves and (lacking a better word) consumerism as a barometer of self worth, that nothing else matters.
As long as there's a buck three eighty left at the end of the paycheck to buy a six pack of Natural Light, most people simply don't give a fuck. I know of no way to engage them. Another 9/11 style attack? Nope. We could have 50 9/11 style attacks in a single day, and polling a week after would still say "I feel safer with Bush".
John Edwards said there were two Americas. He was wrong. There's three. The "haves", the "have-nots", and the "don't give a shits". It's the "don't give a shits" that have driven us off a cliff.
Oh, crap.
How do you find common ground with people who don't believe in evolution, for pity's sake? Does anyone really believe that, if we "respect" them, and "listen" to them, and "understand" them, that the great red stain amidships will vanish? The voting majority of this country is deep in religious dementia, and there is no pulling it out.
Oh, crap.
How do you find common ground with people who don't believe in evolution, for pity's sake? Does anyone really believe that, if we "respect" them, and "listen" to them, and "understand" them, that the great red stain amidships will vanish? The voting majority of this country is deep in religious dementia, and there is no pulling it out.
Now is the time to stand up and shout, and keep shouting, because I do believe that now it will become part of the national discourse.
GN is right about the disgrace of the mainstream media. But they have nothing to do now for the next couple of years, and I guarantee they're going to turn on Bush. Everything they should have been talking about for the last four years will finally be discussed.
The kind of Freepers who refer to the "Communist News Network" won't be swayed. But your average ill-informed but well-meaning American will be.
On the other hand homosexuality has made many inroads during the Bush presidency. The debate about marriage would never have reached the pitch it has under a Democratic president. The Log Cabin Republicans may be right.
if 51% really do "hate fags", why does Bush have to speak in codewords to his base (ie, "Dred Scott"?) Why not just come out and say, "We're throwing fags in jail. We're putting abortionists on trial."
They don't like to think of themselves as fag-haters, even though they really are.
GN is half right. I don't think the media is right-biased, I think they are lazy, they think people are too stupid for serious discussions of the issues, and they don't have the staff they once did, so they love being handed stuff by the Administration because then they don't need to do research.
But the GOP has been able to manipulate the media to shape the public perception of issues. We haven't. We need clear positions that are easy to articulate, even if they aren't the "best" policy: Health Care for Everyone. Pro-Privacy. A living wage for full time workers. Keep repeating the same stuff over and over again. It works for them, it can work for us.
The level of sexual innuendo and outright obscenity on primetime broadcast television has increased during the Bush presidency.
***"Why do people vote against their better interest?" What is the underlying fear/need/desire/want/craving/whatever that lets someone on minimum wage vote for someone who will increase their taxes, reduce their standard of living, and make it harder to get by?***
The underlying assumption behind this question is that pocketbook isues should always trump value issues. Until dems offer programs that appeal to middle americas sense of morality they will continue to lose.
Money is not the problem this year. it is the message or lack thereof. CA alone can supply money to the entire democratic party.
Gop wins the south using RACE, GUNS, GOD and now GAY. Unless Democrats can come up with ways to overcome those issues, GOp will continue to control Congress and the WH.
The national Democratic party has been telling me for four years that to win, they have to "triangulate", to co-opt the Republican's own issues, to convince all the right-of-center folks that we represent them. Obviously, we did not go far enough. We need to crush gay rights, to get rid of affirmative action, to make sure we truly represent the white NASCAR dad, you know, the heart and soul of America.
We need to hang up our bigot shingle and make it known that the Democratic party is now open for corporate business, that we will try to make CEOs even richer than the the Republicans are willing to make them by offering even larger tax breaks. We need come out strongly for outsourcing and off-shore tax havens. We need to make pre-emptive war and an increase in tactical nuclear weapons our top priority. Pour money into a missile shield program until we're broke no matter whether the system works or not. As long as we make Carlyle and other American owned companies rich in the process.
We need to immediately advocate for extensive oil drilling on pristine federal lands, privatization of national forests, and the removal of all federal regulations that now restrict energy companies ability to serve the public.
A strong message of hatred, fiscal irresponsibility, and destruction of the environment topped off by WAR, WAR, WAR is the only way we're going to be able to beat these fuckers at their own game.
Above all, WE MUST OVERTURN ROE v. WADE!!!
Let's do it!
Or maybe not. If I am misguided about all the above, it just could be that the direction that the Democratic party leadership has taken us has been, and remains, the wrong direction. It could be that the DLC has actually become a detriment to our winning of elections. Just because I felt disgust watching the incumbent Democratic representives desperately spin themselves as right-of-center moderates in their local commercials, then watched as they were re-elected with a smaller percentage than last election in a heavily Democratic state, doesn't mean that I am right. It could be that the results are wrong - but probably not.
Maybe we need to keep following the same advice, the same direction, that has lost us ground now in several elections. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, we need to actually start standing up for the issues we believe in, and quit trying to convince the fundamentalist bigots that we represent them? Because, you know what? We don't.
We believe in inclusiveness and diversity. We believe that women own their own bodies. We believe in true religious freedom where you don't push your views down the throats of others. We believe in helping the less fortunate. We should believe that policies can never be seen as good for business unless they are good for all the employees of that business. Maybe I'm wrong. I know this - acting like Republicans has not worked, and the Dems in DC keep telling us to try it. How long are we
It's only natural for the left NOT to have a clear message; We are all encompassing.
Great point. What is seen as a weakness of the Democratic party is actually its great strength: the Dems are actually a real political party which, though of course imperfect, still manages to not allow cronyism, pure, bitter partisanship and powermongering to overtake its democratic qualities. Before we rush to caricature Bush's "majority," let's of course do some major housekeeping in our party and gear up to continue the resistance, but let's also watch the GOP implode under the weight of its own folly.
I've been in sackcloth and ashes all day....literally crying my eyes out.
This is the first thing I've read or heard today that makes real sense. We have to embrace what we are...and quit running away from it. We are liberals. We have a very specific set of values that we must embrace and articulate.
Thanks for that Atrios.
Bundersnatch has snarked America--with the aid of the media, I might add.
In order to put it back going in the right direction, I think we need a very large war chest and organization to destroy the corrupt money sucking media as it is today with actual television ads to that purpose--pointing out who what and where. The media is really responsible for not only refusing to let Kerry be seen but also for teaming up with the lies and distortions. Maybe blogpac is the very thing.
Pasting Wolf's face on tv adds where he has lied, etc., sounds good to me.
Also we need a campaign and ads to tell Americans just what morality is. They don't seem to know and they think it means killing, bigotry, greed, sex, and ignorance. Surely there are some good people in that mass of ignoramuses.
We must also target particular right wing senators and congressmen well ahead of elections.
I think it's too sad that the GOP never thinks to run a Hagel and REALLY win big. Maybe we should give big to Pat Buchanan?
Mario Cuomo nailed the rightwing a decade ago, calling them "mean, ugly people".
Have they proven themselves otherwise?
Because I'd really like to see evidence of it.
"Wow, that approach will no doubt win many converts in the midwest and south. Radical idea here but how about adopting a set of policies that might actually appeal to red-state voters?"
You are living in a dream world. Dems can never outdo Repubs in terms of gaybashing, racism, etc. People in Red States are obviously just dying to hand over their freedom and turn this into a fascist nation.
/
""They" are not stupid, evil, scum, idiots, etc. Until we accept that 51% of the country sees things differently than us without demonizing them we'll be doomed to last place."
Please tell me you are actually a Repub. troll; I hope no Dems actually think like this. Repubs got where they are by demonizing the other side. Demonization WORKS. Have the last sixty years taught us nothing? Reds, liberals, gays, terrorists, "Blame - America - Firsters".
Plus, call a spade a fucking spade.
.
***How do you find common ground with people who don't believe in evolution, for pity's sake? Does anyone really believe that, if we "respect" them, and "listen" to them, and "understand" them, that the great red stain amidships will vanish? The voting majority of this country is deep in religious dementia, and there is no pulling it out.***
I am an agnostic, haven't set foot inside a church in 25 years, and happen to think that most evolution theory is total bunk. Your condescending attitude toward america's breadbasket will ensure continued success for repubs.
Phoenician - go tell it to the right wing blogs. Nice of you to come here when we are grieving and shit on us.
Fuck you
You're probably right.
So, this is a fascist state with a majority of the people being fascists.
The main question: Do liberals plan to quitely go to the gas chambers, or do they think it may be time to test the limits of the 2nd Amendment?
Professor Chaos -
I understand your passion, but if your "only choices" are violence and leaving the country, um, please leave, okay? Scotland's a real nice place to live . . .
no matter which way they eventually turned, there are democrats in red states. i'm in nyc, but upstate and in surrounding areas are hard-core republican. maybe our strategy should not only be message, but location. nyc is slowly (well, ok quickly) becoming too expensive for real artists and normal people... let's pick another city in a red state to grow in numbers and make the next cultural mecca. it would be hilarious if we could make austin, texas blue enough to turn the state democrat!
Liberals are damned by their liberal bent.
Our house has room for many opinions under the same roof; our opponents house screens you, asks you to pledge your allegiance, and expects that you accept and live its credo.
In our eyes, this credo is a distorted version of the humane principles that should rule us; in their eyes, it is an easily grasped and championed vision of how life should be lived.
Our house has room for many opinions under the same roof. Their house wishes to create one, and they shake their heads in bafflement at how we can say and believe so many different things at the same time. Flip-floppers, they charge. Turncoats. "My opponent's opinions are like the weather here. Wait long enough, and it will change."
They do not want to change. "A leader never admits failure or a mistake," says our leader.
He will, of course, drive the ship of state into that uncharted regions where dragons reside.
Meanwhile, our side, with the house filled with many shades of the color grey, will bicker and bite and bark at each other, rather than uniting against those in their house, who bicker and bite and bark at us.
Sure - our side has lots of money, but it is being spent on ten different tasks, ten different directions, ten different ideas, philosophies and policies. Multiply ten by ten by ten by ten by ten, and what you have is a house full of choices, and few directions.
Remember that, next time you disagree with the choice of candidate, and don't pour your heart into getting him elected, instead of snarking about the guy "you" wanted elected.
The man who did get elected is laughing at us, and he is right to do so. His world is black and white, ours is filled with shades of grey.
I am an agnostic, haven't set foot inside a church in 25 years, and happen to think that most evolution theory is total bunk. ""
Why do I not believe this?
I'm afraid, my friends, that this is out of our hands now.
It's clear that the majority of Americans have no problems with living under fascism.
The rest of the world will have to deal with this menace. Germany and Japan will lead the worldwide coalition against a fascist state this time. Oh the irony.
I'm disapointed with the elction's outcome, but I'm also relieved that Bush and the Repubs will be completely responsible for the next two years. Iraq is beyond fixing. It will become a country with a continuous civil war or another Iran. The economy will continue to be anemic. The huge national debt(assuming Bush's tax cuts become permanent) will erode the dollar and new jobs will be scarce and low paying. The next mid-term elections may provide some opportunities.
My worst fear though, is that the majority of Americans will need a gut-wrenching event such as the great depression before they understand the results of Republican economic Darwinism.
***You are living in a dream world. Dems can never outdo Repubs in terms of gaybashing, racism, etc. People in Red States are obviously just dying to hand over their freedom and turn this into a fascist nation.***
Is there the slightest possibility that red state voters actually support the invasion of Iraq, don't care for career political wafflers and appreciate the courageous leadership of Bush? Or are they all voting based purely on bigotry?
With such a poor understanding of why red states vote as they do, it is no wonder that dem strategy fell short.
Imagine how the right wing would be reacting now if Kerry had won.They wouldn't be licking their wounds and leaving the country. They'd be in full fury crying on the air and newspapers about how the election was fixed and stolen from them.
Now imagine how they would behave during the next four years of his presidency. They would never acquiesce. They'd be unrelenting in their criticism of Kerry while banding together to build a strong powerbase so that they could regain power.
We need to take a page from their playbook because when Bush's second term starts to fall apart and the reality of having the right wing in control of the country finally dawns on American, we need to be there to take back the country.
Kerry conceded
I didn't.
The electoral college has us thinking about this the wrong way. There aren't red states and blue states so much as blue regions (urban areas) and red regions (the burbs). Much as I hate even visiting suburbia for short trips, when we win there, we win big. We do need an agenda that will appeal to these people, and no I don't mean appealing to homophobia and racism. I mean addressing the needs of working people in a language that appeals to their values and basic decency.
Of course being the party of abortion, homosexuality, welfare, socialism, and eco-nuts isn't really helping you either. You guys could help yourselves so much if you would just cut loose the left wing fringe from your party (let the Greens have them) and actually move to the center.
Actually listen to America, instead of lecturing it with some phony morality that they neither share, nor have any interest in.
In order to put it back going in the right direction, I think we need a very large war chest and organization to destroy the corrupt money sucking media as it is today with actual television ads to that purpose--pointing out who what and where. The media is really responsible for not only refusing to let Kerry be seen but also for teaming up with the lies and distortions.
Right on! We need to continue to resist. Something is going right with this country in that Bush was as yet unable to indoctrinate a majority of the population. We need not underestimate the lengths to which this administration has gone to maintain power, nor how this administration has managed to bully and fool the mainstream media into feeding its poisoned kool-aid. Rather than buying into Rovian reality, we need to fix the institutions which left the country vulnerable to the Bushist assault.
Atrios is right, and I think its pretty simple:
We need a candidate who can give the speech from the end of Revenge of the Nerds:
"I'm a liberal, and I'm pretty proud of it. Any of you who have ever wanted affordable health care, clean air and water, and good public schools for your kids, you're a liberal too. Why don't you all come up here and join me."
Cue Queen, "We Are the Champions".
Its really not that hard. McAuliffe and the DNC need to go. Its time for a new strategy.
But we need to start NOW.
I think Atrios is exactly right, and tomorrow I may give it some thought.
Meanwhile, if anyone's recruiting for a civil war, tell me where to sign up.
Don't believe in evolution? Put two dogs together in same room together of opposite sex and wait. If they produce a mutt you have evolution, if they produce Lassie you have creationism.
Why do democrats run away from the "liberal" label? There's seems to be a core group who'll always see that as a terrible thing, but there are a lot of people who could benefit from an explanation.
The way Franken explained it in Lying Liars was great!
I am inclined to just step back and let the right run things for a while. If I am right, they are wrong, and things will begin to fall apart and turn our way.
But, I can't fight them like this anymore. We lose everytime on this playing field.
"Is there the slightest possibility that red state voters actually support the invasion of Iraq, don't care for career political wafflers and appreciate the courageous leadership of Bush?
They support Iraq because they don't give a shit how many brown-colored people die at the hands of the US military.
They don't like "waffling" because they believe in a religion that views skepticism and critical thinking as sin, and encourages blind faith and certainty.
As for the the "courageous leadership of Bush" ... that's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. Give me one example of courage in Bush's ENTIRE LIFE. The fucker wiggled out of Vietnam and joined the National Guard, and he COULDN'T EVEN FULFILL THAT DUTY.
"Or are they all voting based purely on bigotry?""
Pretty much. Some of them are just "aching for that upper-class tax cut" as Krusty would say.
.
Hanna, as an avowed "agnostic" who thinks that "evolutionary theory is bunk," why exactly did you support the invasion of Iraq?
Just received a "Thank You for Your Support" e-mail from the Kerry campaign.
But I still find it difficult to fathom, with all of the major issues going on in this country, that more Americans voted for Bush based on "conservative moral issues" (quoting from someone who was just talking on MSNBC) than the economy, or Iraq, or terror.
It's the churches. The churches won this election for Bush. Separation of church and state is eroding ~ that is where we need to focus for the next election.
The blurring of Church/State issues frightens me, big time.
Just anecdotal, but my red state mother is always telling me about the young people there she was trying to convert into Democrats. She lives in an area with a very high rate of poverty and joblessness, many of these kids recently lost their jobs to outsourcing.
They were pretty much single issue voters--gay marriage.
Not terrorism, not Iraq, not tax cuts.
Gay marriage.
So they are now safe from married gay people.
But from nothing else.
So why is the majority of evolutionary theory bunk? Seriously, I'm curious.
And the "courageous" leadership of Bush? You mean how he captured Osama so quickly and kept our eye on the ball in the war on terror? You mean how he fought for a unbiased, nonpartisan commission into just what went wrong on 9/11 with our defenses? How he admitted that there were no WMD's in Iraq and that maybe it wasn't such a good idea? How he didn't play on the fear and predjudices of people with a completely useless push to amend the Constitution to prevent people from enjoying basic civil rights just because other people think their icky?
The fuck has Bush done that shows even an inkling of courage? The only folks more gutless these days is the DNC. No more mister nice guy for this progressive, dear hearts. It's back to being the gadfly.
Ahhh. Libertating feeling.
Hanna,
wow? Go to the appeaser blog.
It actually gets back to the "unfiendly" antiglobalization argument: that we are not going to be able to be nice in educating people, that our comfort is the problem and we are not going to be able to promise the nice bourgeois butterballs sitting on third worlders that they will be able to keep their SUVs. Americans are stupid, greedy, weak, puerile and occasionally evil, and geting worse, at a time when China is ramping up certain capabilituies and Europe is effectively replacing the US without actively trying to. Pop quiz, to verify kei&yuriness: what'll happen to the Israeli "peace" scam when the EU replaces the US? Can you say UN peacekeeping occupation? Can you see Chinese soldiers marching through Jerusalem?
But it's probably not important.
You guys could help yourselves so much if you would just cut loose the left wing fringe from your party (let the Greens have them) and actually move to the center.""
If the Democratic Party moves any further to the "center" they will basically be moderate Repubs.
Which I'm sure you would love.
Nice try. YOu don't get off that easy.
You do realize that your leader should be brought up on charges of war crimes, right?
.
****IIt's clear that the majority of Americans have no problems with living under fascism.****
Too bad you didn't have an opportunity to experience real fascism. You might not be so quick to casually misuse it.
Of course being the party of abortion, homosexuality, welfare, socialism, and eco-nuts isn't really helping you either. You guys could help yourselves so much if you would just cut loose the left wing fringe from your party (let the Greens have them) and actually move to the center.
The democratic party being none of the things that you mentioned, of course. The democratic party sits square in the center of the political universe. And yet half the country thinks it's a bunch wild eyed pinkos.
That's the problem.
Vicki - WRT: the churches. I do believe that that is where Bush won this election. And I do believe that the churches are now the single most powerful political force in this country and that I don't have a clue what we do about that.
My precinct votes in a church - that is wrong. Precincts all over Dallas County vote in churches. The ballots were counted in another church last night.
I don't know how to fight that, I really don't.
Actually listen to America, instead of lecturing it with some phony morality that they neither share, nor have any interest in.
Reality | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 4:21 pm | #
This is the key. As much as we don't want to hear it. The only way to draw more people to the party is to listen to them and try to appeal to the areas where we agree. And so from there. You're never going to convince someone of anything if you are attacking them and seeing them as your enemy.
I think Michael Moore understands this best. He wrote about it in one of his books.
And we do need a message. You can not unite behind a leader if you don't all agree with his message.
It's clear that the majority of Americans have no problems with living under fascism.
To accept this, we would have to accept the Bushist declaration that most of the country knows that it is living under fascism. Very little that I have heard from Bush & posse and its arteries over these past years has comported with reality. Why start accepting Bush & posse's version of reality now?
I have to give this some more thought, but it occurs to me that the electoral college also works against a party's enthusiasm for its nominee? I can't remember the last time we New Yorkers (a solid blue state) had an opportunity to really participate in the selection of the nominee, and I suspect that they schedule primaries to put the "lighter blue" states first. So, we're heard less both in the primaries and in the national campaign.
I really hate the EC.
elwood i agree, but another "little" wrench in the works is the republicans' willingness to mindlessly conform regardless of their current situation in regards to the economy, health care, etc... the kerry/edwards message spoke to truth, but it seems a (slim) majority of americans aren't particularly interested in reality, or don't connect the office of the president to the things wrong in the world. or, like with clinton, what is right in the world. i don't know what the answer is but i do believe we can all figure that one out together in the coming days, weeks, months...
time to focus on '06 in any event.
Too bad you didn't have an opportunity to experience real fascism. You might not be so quick to casually misuse it.""
Give Bush another four years and we WILL experience "real fascism".
We were TRYING to avoid that.
Or should we wait until we are actually in the internment camps to start complaining?
.
Of course being the party of abortion, homosexuality, welfare, socialism, and eco-nuts isn't really helping you either. You guys could help yourselves so much if you would just cut loose the left wing fringe from your party (let the Greens have them) and actually move to the center.
------------
The democratic party being none of the things that you mentioned, of course. The democratic party sits square in the center of the political universe. And yet half the country thinks it's a bunch wild eyed pinkos.
That's the problem.
-----------
Ummm...if it sat "square in the center" then HALF OF THE COUNTRY wouldn't think it was wild eyed pinkos now would it.
none of our candidates are willing to be labeled as a liberal
Not exactly true. From Bill Maher's show 9/5/2003:
Maher: I'm just wondering of all the poeple who have the credentials to say liberal is not a bad word, I'm just wondering if I can get you to say that right now.
Clark: Well, I'll say it right now. [loud applause]. We live in a liberal democracy that's what we created in this country. Thats the basis of our Constituion. I think we should be very clear on this, you know this country was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment. It was the idea that people could talk, reason, have dialog and discuss the issues. It wasn't founded on the idea that someone would get stuck by a divine inspiration and know everything, right from wrong.
We got punked.
Now I know how mad the thugs were in 96' when Clinton was re-elected.
the republicans in 96' were angry and they stayed organized and got stronger, and that is what we must do as well.
stay energized, stay organized. whats ACT doing now? or Move.on? what's Dean doing?
developmental narratives are great, but they need to be simple and strong.
someone said this was the start of a 20 year war.
where's he been for the last four years?
How about this for a headline:
Soros buys CNN
I could put up with a friendly interview with Obama & co. every week or so. We'd have a place to test drive progressive ideas for cable.
(Meme for the day: doesn't 2004 feel like 1928, the year before the shit hit the fan? We'd better be looking for an FDR.)
Well, how many people listen to chowderheads like Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage and O'Reilly, who scream and yell that every even slightly progressive concept is flaming socialism? How many people think Elvis is still alive? How many people believe they've been abducted by aliens? How many people believe they have a personal guardian angel, even though no such beings are even mentioned in the Bible?
People believe the strangest shit. Like that saw about Bush's moral courage; dunno where in the hell they got that one from.
Is there the slightest possibility that red state voters actually support the invasion of Iraq, don't care for career political wafflers and appreciate the courageous leadership of Bush? Or are they all voting based purely on bigotry?
Well, considering that the exit poll done by AP showed that the #1 issue for voters was "moral issues," um, nice try.
You personally may have voted for all of those nice-sounding things. But Bush rode to victory on the backs of the homophobes in 11 states, including Ohio -- you just added a vote or two on top of the sundae.
Keep in mind -- the Republican Party doesn't own the fundamentalists. The Fundamentalists own you, lock, stock and barrel. The days of fiscal conservatism are over. Now it's nothing but God, guns and gays, plus wildly out-of-control deficit spending and unnecessary wars.
But I guess the deaths of over 1,000 American soldiers (plus tens of thousands of Iraqis) are immaterial to you as long as fags can't get married.
I'm sure if you scrub just a little harder, you'll get that spot off, Lady MacBeth.
Yeah, saw Clark on Maher too and he was great. But it's on HBO - how big is that audience? Why can't they say it in a convention speech or during a debate.
The whitehouse is already calling this an "historic" victory. The president is calling for reforming a "dysfunctional" tax system and the freepers and fundies are feeling puffed up and even more emboldened and bullying in their approach toward us and they sure as hell won't be the least bit interested in finding any common ground.
We don't agree with them on much and we shouldn't even try to. The four freedoms is a good model for us to use a a basis for defining what the hell seperates the Democrats from the Republicans. I don't have a clue how you can ever win over people that promote hating gays and more tax cuts for the rich as their core belief.
We are differnt and I'm damn proud of it but you can't overcome their 30 year head start in one year. I wanted to get drunk last night but my heart just wasn't in it. Matt Lauer last night "framing" the Bush victory as an indication of the people demanding "moral values" made me feel like throwing up. Now I want to get busy and take back my country. (after I take a nap)
Ummm...if it sat "square in the center" then HALF OF THE COUNTRY wouldn't think it was wild eyed pinkos now would it.
I depends on how well-informed that half of the country is. Since they seem to think Saddam was involved in 9/11 and that the Republicans are fiscal conservatives, you have to excuse our skepticism.
I would make a point and some suggestions.
The point: Much of Republican message is "liberal". You'd don't think a
free and prosperous Iraq and Afghanistan is a good idea? You
don't think halving the deficit is good? How about every child
getting a good education? Clean air and water?
The problem is not with the message but that Republicans don't deliver.
They continue to claim that they would have delivered except for the
Democrats. And in fairness to the electorate, much of the time the worst
predicts of the Democrats don't come true.
My main suggestion is predicated on the assumption that the Republicans are
right and they really do have the support of the majority in this country and
that they really will do bad things with this power. To stop them anytime
soon seems unlikely, so don't try very often.
MAKE THEM GOVERN BUT HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE - EVERY DAY!
When the appropriations bill for Iraq comes up Democrats should vote for it.
If any of the real no-spending Republicans do not, get the message out in
their districts that they don't support the troops and the President.
Right then and every time. This time around, no Democrat should touch a
draft bill - make the Republicans solve the manpower problem in our
armed forces. If they bring one up, no Senate filibuster but no votes either.
Save your filibusters for the courts. Vote for tax cuts - no problem. Are
important social programs going to get cut? The Republicans say the
people want them to, but they'll try to get the Democrats to oppose the cuts,
through in a few safe Republicans to pass it and then go after Democratic
spending when they can't cut the deficit. You get the idea.
I'd like to see a grassroots campaign started to bring Sadam Hussein to this
country to stand trial for his part in 9/11. (Yes I know he had none but since
a large number of American's believe he did, the question of why he isn't
being held accountable in an American court should be an interesting one.)
Fascism comes in many forms.
here is the dictionary definition from Merriam-Webster online:
1) a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2) a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
I would say that there are many fascist elements to this government: "centralized autocratic government", "regime that exalts nation", etc.
Remember, there are other examples of fascist governments other than Germany -- Italy and Spain of the 30's, for instance.
Well, I tend to agree with Atrios when he says- The people who voted George Bush and the Republicans into office this year didn't do so because they were conned by a right wing asshole posing as a compassionate centrist. They did so precisely because he is a right wing asshole.
However, as evidenced by research, I also think that about half of those who voted Republican do not have a command of the facts, do not know where Bush stands on the issues, or what his policies really are.
And I will only feed them once- Okay trolls, how do you explain this?
I asked 72-year-old Charlie Houck how he voted.
"Bush," he replied.
And what did he expect out of him for the next four years? "About the same as we got now, God help us."
His number one voting issue was Iraq.
"Colin Powell was right. You go in there, you own it. So you gotta’ wipe ‘em out. Kill ‘em all but six. Use them as pallbearers."
Frankly, I have met far too many people like this.
What Does A Democratic America Look Like?
This is, for me, the big question that arises from this election, and from the 2002 elections.
For me, the answer is simple, and cuttingly clear, if somewhat painful in the details for many liberals.
A Democratic America is a nation in which individuals are free in their hearts and homes, and protected in their efforts in the free markets and abroad.
Freedom in our hearts and homes.
This means a great many things. But essentially, it means that in their private lives, people are free to pursue beliefs that do not hurt others.
If your religious beliefs mean that you oppose certain behavior, you are free to speak your mind against it. You are free to shout at the top of your lungs, "Don't do that!" It means that morality of the majority is recognized and respected, especially at the federal level.
This means that the states have independence when determining things like the definition of marriage. We, as Democrats, more importantly, as Democrats at the national level, have to realize that many people are offended by the idea of gay marriage. We must reassure those people that their view will be respected by the federal government; by the legislature, the executive, and most importantly, by the courts.
We Democrats must accept, and make clear our acceptance of, the truth that marriage is the province of the state governments. We must make clear that the federal judiciary will not engage in second-guessing a state's definition of marriage, unless it runs afoul the most obvious protections against racial discrimination. Beyond that, the states must have a free hand, as they have in the past.
We must make clear that no state will ever be forced by the federal judiciary to accept a marriage that it does not match its laws.
This is an uncomfortable position for gay and lesbian groups who would like to use the federal government to fight that battle. As a man with a boyfriend, I sympathize with them. But I am forced to conclude that it is a discussion that must be had at the state level.
We must make clear that we harbor no secret intention to ever make it otherwise.
We, as National Democrats, must abandon the notion of "hate crimes." We must accept the cold truth: a crime is a crime, regardless of whatever cultural bias prompted you to commit it. Individual groups are not entitled to some special protection over and above what is offered to the victim of any crime. There is room for conversation on the subject (Klan laws about intimidation, for instance, are crimes whether the victim is a white Democrat or a black Republican), but what is clear is that crimes are not more severe because they are committed out of racial animosity.
I sympathize with those who say that there is nothing more destructive to democracy and the free exchange of ideas upon which it thrives than those sort of bias crimes. Never the less, it seems that the crimes can be punished without an attemp
I am sick of red-staters collecting government cheese that comes out of blue-state tax money.
Do you republican pieces of shit know this? YOU are the idiots sucking the public teat, having illegitimate children, getting divorced, etc. etc.
.
Long term opposition to abortion is getting more "moral values" votes for Republicans than is gay-bashing. I just don't believe that a majority of Americans are bigots. However - and this is a big however - many of them are Democrats or in Democratic demographic groups, so it peels off "our" voters enough to help beat us. Many Americans who are "liberal" on civil rights for gays and lesbians are middle class suburbanites who are anti-tax. They supported Bush, holding their noses. Our weak showing among Latinos (economic populists but often very conservative about sexual issues) was due to this wedge issue posturing. But the long term trend in this country is towards inclusion and acceptance of gay people. Unfortunately the trend is against legal abortion, we must be prepared to fight that one state by state when, not if, Roe falls.
I grew up in the Vietnam era, and one thought that consoles me is that things were worse then, in many respects. For a long time the conventional Cold War pieties were blandly accepted by both major parties, and you had to go to obscure alternative media to get any kind of coherent contrary view. Every night the TV news trumpeted General Westmoreland's bogus body counts. In the end, 58,000 US troops died, along with countless Vietnamese civilians. And in retrospect, the whole thing looks, to many of us, like an episode of incredibly deadly collective madness.
Now it seems to me that the good guys, the ones willing to speak truth to power, are far less marginalized politically than they were then. Sure, there's an enormous difference in outcome betweeen 48% and 51%. But in 1968, we would have been thrilled to get that 48%.
MKP
We're the party of the "little guy", aren't we? Many say that "Liberal Northeastern Elitists" obscure this fact, but what is it REALLY? How do we get this mantle back, because i think it's undeniably true. How is it we look like snobs to these people? It just blows my mind that so many common people vote against their own self-interests...
Ummm...if it sat "square in the center" then HALF OF THE COUNTRY wouldn't think it was wild eyed pinkos now would it.,
1. I didn't say the center of American electoral politics. The democrats are hardly even a liberal party. They are a bunch of center left to center right moderates with a few actual liberals here and there. No socialist has any home in any major political party.
2. See belief, vs reality, unless you're some sort of epistemological relativist.
Vicki - WRT: the churches. I do believe that that is where Bush won this election. And I do believe that the churches are now the single most powerful political force in this country and that I don't have a clue what we do about that.
I heard today that many who voted for Bush were:
1) people that go to church once a week
2) less educated - those that didn't go to college
Hence, what about starting weekly meeting for all of us to unite and organize for our causes (like a church meeting). We can work on congressional votes as they come up while strategizing the 2006 elections.
Also, we are not going to win with people who use "big" words (we will not concede to other countries) or messages that are not simple (KISS - keep it simple stupid)
***I really hate the EC***
The reason for this is that the left has concentrated itself in a relative handful of states. Move out of your insular urban nests and experience real america. You might even get to participate in choosing the nominee!
t to prosecute one for unfavorable political or moral ideals.
We, as National Democrats, must clearly adopt President Clinton's view on abortion: abortion should be safe; abortion should be legal; abortion should rare. We must strongly endorse federal programs that make bearing a child to term a desirable alternative to abortion. We cannot, nor should we, seek to invade the heart of those who would abort their children, but we must do everything we can to make it possible for them to bear a child to term and avoid that most severe decision.
I can’t know the things that confront a woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy. But I do know that when making her decision, she must have as many real options as possible, and the most supportive environment possible for her, and her unborn child.
Safety in the free market.
It is critical in the modern economy that American’s be assured a minimum level of security, and a maximum level of opportunity to succeed on their merits.
The most fundamental part of this security in the market is Social Security. The program was defined as an insurance policy to prevent massive poverty, and the destructive effects that massive poverty has on the economy.
Social Security cannot be made to depend upon the market. This is simply a part of the purpose of the system. It was intended to be a hedge against the often-unpredictable changes in the market. The argument against allowing the investment of Social Security in private accounts, accounts in anyway linked to the market, is summed up in one word.
Enron.
Right up until Enron’s collapse, it was perceived in the general public’s mind as a safe, profitable, stable company. The damage its implosion caused is all-too-recent memory.
However, bearing in mind my ignorance of the economics, if there’s a method that allows Social Security to, in Bush’s words, take advantage of the interest generated by the market, without subjecting it to the binge-and-purge world of the stock market, we as Democrats should seriously consider it.
Beyond this minimum level of security, this safety-net to stave off the damage of an impoverished population, we must invest heavily in education and job training. This is an area in which the Democrats have traditionally been on the forefront, and we must continue that march.
We must make it possible for those with will and ability to succeed, and we must guarantee that they will not be shackled by anything that does not reflect the merits of their efforts and abilities.
This includes a serious re-evaluation of the goals and the methods of affirmative action programs. We must be certain that state affirmative action programs are reaching out across the spectrum to equalize the playing field, and not arbitrarily assigning debits and credits. Once the playing field is leveled, we can be confident that the natural genius of individual Americans will allow them to succeed where their talents lie.
Beyond providing this s
Actually, you only needed 44% in 1968 -- don't forget that Wallace ran that year and got almost 13% of the vote.
opening of email from John Kerry:
Earlier today I spoke to President Bush, and offered him and Laura our congratulations on their victory. We had a good conversation, and we talked about the danger of division in our country and the need, the desperate need, for unity for finding the common ground, coming together. Today, I hope that we can begin the healing.
Oh fuck. We were divided 4 years ago. We are not going to heal with a Bush spawn in the white house. Screw you kerry and screw you DNC for foisting him on us instead of Dean.
We tried to save the Red-staters from having to wallow in their own excrement, but they just dumped a fresh truckload on their own heads. Hope they enjoy swimming in shit.
it would be hilarious if we could make austin, texas blue enough to turn the state democrat!
This NYer will only go if I can get Chinese take-out at 2:30 in the morning.
At the risk of sounding like my "left wing pinkie commo" mother (who makes me prouder than I can possibly say), since when did "liberal" become a curse word?
"I just don't believe that a majority of Americans are bigots."
Believe it.
At least 9 out of 10 anti-gay ballot props passed (anybody know about Oregon's?).
What further proof do you need?
How about the fact that a majority of the country supported the invasion of Iraq simply because the Iraqis have the same skin color, the same religion, and the same kind of names that the 9-11 hijackers had?
etc. etc. etc.
We passed upon the stair, we spoke of was and when
Although I wasn't there, he said I was his friend
Which came as some surprise I spoke into his eyes
I thought you died alone, a long long time ago
Oh no, not me
I never lost control
You're face to face
With The Man Who Sold The World
I laughed and shook his hand, and made my way back home
I searched for form and land, for years and years I roamed
I gazed a gazely stare at all the millions here
We must have died along, a long long time ago
Who knows? not me
We never lost control
You're face to face
With the Man who Sold the World
****Vicki - WRT: the churches. I do believe that that is where Bush won this election. And I do believe that the churches are now the single most powerful political force in this country and that I don't have a clue what we do about that.****
Clue: join a church and get right with god. Religious people are happier people. Wish I had it in me to become a believer because thay have something that seems to fill an essential void in most people.
We tried to save the Red-staters from having to wallow in their own excrement, but they just dumped a fresh truckload on their own heads.
"What's the Matter with Kansas."
Explains it all.
We don't agree with them on much and we shouldn't even try to. The four freedoms is a good model for us to use a a basis for defining what the hell seperates the Democrats from the Republicans. I don't have a clue how you can ever win over people that promote hating gays and more tax cuts for the rich as their core belief...Now I want to get busy and take back my country. (after I take a nap)
The media also told me that there were weapons of mass destruction, the Bush and Kerry were nearly the same candidate, that Howard Dean is insane, etc., etc. We need to stay tough! We are basically resisting a corrupt machine which has absolutely no moral compass nor any restrictions on the length to which it will go to maintain power. I'm shocked and extremely unhappy with the election results, but looking forward, I am proud to continue resisting a group that is absolutely disastrous for my country. Bush & posse are not my leaders; I believe almost nothing said by this administration, including their "reality" about the populace.
Anonymous -- Remember that Dean signed the gay civil unions bill when he was governor of Vermont.
This particular gay-baiting trap was laid for Dean.
It happened to fit Kerry as well, but it was really meant for Dean.
I want Dean as the head of the DNC -- who can we start a letter-writing campaign to?
For ideas and message, hey, let's go read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Yeah, I know, people won't vote for that, blah, blah, blah. But they're damned fine ideals, and they're not the sole property of the right. Let's reclaim them. Live them. Fight for them.
"Clue: join a church and get right with god. Religious people are happier people."
I think Hanna has made it clear that she is no "agnostic who hasn't been in a church for 25 years".
Keep praying to the imaginary man in the sky, dumbshit.
.
***"I just don't believe that a majority of Americans are bigots."
Believe it.
At least 9 out of 10 anti-gay ballot props passed (anybody know about Oregon's?).
What further proof do you need?***
Another classic example of the liberal condescension that will ensure the steady enlargement of red state geography.
ecurity to individuals, we must vigorously police the market to prevent fraud and abuses by those who would seek to cheat the public. The public is entitled is as entitled to decency from those in the boardrooms as it is from those in the state houses. This means at least a common language, fair and vigorously enforced accounting standards and stock-market practices.
Another critical part of the economic liberty that I propose is guaranteeing a minimum level of health care. People who can’t afford to be healthy will find cold comfort in other freedoms. This means, just as with Social Security, providing a minimum assurance; a prevention of that choice between food and medicine. It does not mean a government-run healthcare program. One of the great difficulties confronted by Democrats in this last election was distinguishing their healthcare program, in which the government helps you pay for the insurance you want, from a government-run healthcare program, where the government tells you what healthcare you get. This distinction needs to be made razor-sharp. I think this will be the easiest part of defining the Democratic social message.
I focused here on the issues on which the Democratic position has been most incoherent or clumsy. Obviously, there are others. Law enforcement was touched on briefly in relation to hate crimes and corporate crime. But there is obviously a broader picture. I believe firmly that a healthy economy and an educated populace go a long way to preventing crime. It is not, however, the end of all crime. What I believe it will do is help decrease crimes of desperation and let police forces across the country to focus on those who act out of malevolence or selfish disregard for the law. Obviously, rehabilitation doesn’t disappear from our criminal justice system. It continues to play an important role; those who can be taught to use methods other than crime to make their way in the world, and who upon their release from prison face an economy that can absorb and reward their efforts, should be given every chance to change their ways. For those who cannot, who are unable to move away from a life of crime, not through lack of avenues, but through their will, should be removed from society and secured in a humane prison system until they are no longer a threat.
National security is another subject that hasn’t been reached yet. Considering the times we live in, it would be silly to ignore it or save it for another day. The proposition here is simple: Democrats must embrace the truth that the United State armed forces and intelligence networks must be strong and flexible if they are to remain our shield against threats abroad. We must also realize that a strong America remains the greatest force for peace in the world. But we must be clear that strength comes in many forms. It is not limited to the awesome power of our military, but also to the moral authority that America commands around the globe. If we are to maintain
Hanna,
Who are the hell are you to say that urban areas aren't "real America"? And why not? Don't people in those "insular urban areas" work and live and love just like folks do down on the farm? I grew up in rural Mississippi, lived in bigger cities and now live in a college town in Georgia, and I got a revelation for you, sweetheart: people are the same. How dare you presume to say who is and who isn't a part of "real America".
And this is supposed to convince me that your way of thinking is correct? That mine is misguided? Poorly reworded David Brooks hogwash, please. Maybe you should leave what I'm sure is your idealistic Small Town, USA, and see how more of America makes its way through life.
It's only George W. Bush's America for the next 4 years if GWB himself can survive the next 4 years. I say you take a good long look at the assholes that troll here, yes people like Avestus, and then you mail every single Democratic politician you know and tell them to treat GWB exactly like they behave towards liberals.
Bush could barely contain his anger in a formalised debate; Push him as hard and pitilessly as the Thugs have done here and elsewhere for another 4 years, and he'll snap. And remember how he avoided his medical to hide a suspect condition? Let's see if we can pressure him enough to make it debilitating. Viscious? Yup. And oh so Republican. So let's turn it on them. Don't worry too much about political pressure now; Make Bush go hatstand publically, and win back the political power in 2006 when everyone shys away from the now clearly pyschotic monkey boy...
Same-sex marriage results:
Arkansas: 75-25
Georgia: 76-24
Kentucky: 75-25
Michigan: 59-41
Mississippi: 86-14
Montana:66-34
North Dakota: 73-27
Ohio: 62-38
Oklahoma: 76-24
Utah: 66-34
These were not even close.
You don't win by convincing these people that they are wrong, you give them a more important issue -- like the economy, the war on terror, etc.
Anybody capable of explaining why John Edwards didn't bring NC into the blue category? NC had the exact same % as in 2000. Is this chump really a serious contender for 2008?
Republicans won because they tend to have a simple straight forward approach to their values.
Democrats - and liberals - tend to qualify things a bit more and sometimes take an intellectual approach. That doesn't suit most Americans. Most want simple answers.
In fact most of the votes for Kerry were simply votes against Bush.
We need to find a reason that is simple and straigtforward without dumbing down our message.
I guess it starts with winning some of the South back.
that moral authority, so crucial to our national security, we must engage the world thoughtfully. This does not mean a surrender of American sovereignty. What it means is the recognition that America, in John Kerry’s words, is strongest when it is working with its allies abroad.
Our allies provide us crucial military resources. They contribute troops, support, and money to the cause of security and peace. They offer us resources for gathering intelligence so that we can identify and locate threats. All these cold material gains are as important to security and peace as the good will America garners when it is respectful of its neighbors. But it is inherently unwise to sacrifice American security for warm and fuzzy feelings abroad. Good will is a tool for peace, but it is not the only tool, and the end is always the safety of America.
We must accept the truth that free and representative governments are far less likely to break into open warfare with one another. Therefore, the promotion of free and representative governments is a sound method for promoting security and peace. Once again, though, it is not the only method. When it comes to American foreign policy, the final test must always be the effect on American security, physically, economically, and environmentally.
We don’t have far to go. I suspect that all we really need is an articulate leader and a forceful delivery of these core values. But I have a gut feeling that making small changes, making clear what we really stand for, can go a long way towards a Democratic America.
But hey . . . what do I know?
Thanks for all your hard work Atrios.
I have slept all day out of depression. I am even more against the right-wing fag-bashers today then I was yesterday. Fuck the baptists. Fuck the catholic church.
They care more about keeping people who love each other apart than then do about saving the lives of their own sons and daughters. Sickening hateful greedy assholes, the lot.
If they all want to work at Wal-Mart (or worse) and earn 8 bucks an hour, go for it. My partner and I will enjoy our Bush tax bonus and try not to worry about middle-America, 'cause they certainly aren't worrying about us.
Another classic example of the liberal condescension that will ensure the steady enlargement of red state geography.""
Do you ever bother to actually make arguments? Or just assertions?
Also, you need to learn that
X is true
and
X is acceptable to Red Staters
have different meanings.
Wish I had it in me to become a believer because thay have something that seems to fill an essential void in most people.
Hanna | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 4:42 pm | #
I don't get it. If it's so easy that you suggest we do it - so we'll be "happier" - why can't you? Belief really isn't that hard to do, is it?
And frankly, I'd like to see some research on your assessment that religious people are "happier". Personally, I don't think it matters one way or another. For some, religion is a life-enriching experience and for other's it's a social club. Do you have a void in your life that needs filling? Have you ever considered stamp collecting?
P.S. - Very sorry about that uber-long, multi-post. As a heart-broken youth (23) voter, I really had to get that out of my system.
How about this for a headline:
Soros buys CNN
I could put up with a friendly interview with Obama & co. every week or so. We'd have a place to test drive progressive ideas for cable.
(Meme for the day: doesn't 2004 feel like 1928, the year before the shit hit the fan? We'd better be looking for an FDR.)
I liked the suggestion upthread that Ds need to think in terms of "narrative," and the best narratives I've seen the last few years have been from the small-l libertarians at antiwar.com. I've been puzzled all year why K/E didn't tell the simple story of the neocons and their rise to power, helpfully signing their names to the PNAC doc. That's a scary story, and it would have reframed the Iraq debate as the "permanent war" debate.
As for "Massachussets liberal," the stories of Daniel Shays, Samuel Adams, Paul Revere or the abolitionists (both religious and secular). Those are good stories, and relevant
****Who are the hell are you to say that urban areas aren't "real America"? And why not?****
Take a breath sweetie. "Real America" is a figure of speech that has always been taken to refer to the heartland. NYC and LA are a lot of things but definitely not heartland.
The single most important issue for Republican voters, according to exit polls, was not the war on terror or Iraq or the economy. It was "moral values." Karl Rove understood the American psyche better than I did. By demonizing gay couples, the Republicans were able to bring in whole swathes of new anti-gay believers into their party. With new senators Jim DeMint and Tom Coburn, two of the most anti-gay politicians in America, we can only brace ourselves for what is now coming.--A.Sullivan
Never underestimate the power of hatred and fear to mobilize people. Certain people in Germany in the 1930s understood this quite well.
Any gay American who embraces the Republican party needs to look long hard at the direction it has taken.
I fear for them and for my country.
This NYer will only go if I can get Chinese take-out at 2:30 in the morning.
-watertiger
hey hey i didn't say we had to volunteer... we need to keep ny blue! and sorry, i can't deal with places that don't have 24-hr bodegas and real pizza. 
OT but Greg Palast is saying on Randi Rhodes right now that it was stolen and that NPR cancelled him for saying so.
Move on, bitter douchebags.
I agree with the upthread idea of not a message but a story. We need to reframe our talking points so that they will make sense to ordinary middle of the road folks.
One thing I've been thinking about is taxes - I've decided to stop hating paying taxes and start writing the check with glee about all the great things it buys me that I can't afford on my own. That it is the taxes we pay that helps us be different and better than the 2-class, infrastructure-free countries south of the border (no offense intended). You get what you pay for" There are alot of rich people spending alot of money on charities and we need to figure out how to seduce them into wanting to give it to the government.
Last night America sent the world a message that we are strong, unafraid and will not back down in the face of European timidity.
We need to find a reason that is simple and straigtforward without dumbing down our message.
I guess it starts with winning some of the South back.""
This will never work. Fuck the South; forget it, it's theirs and it's never coming back. We can never out-stupid the republicans.
.
Sutseva,
Yeah, but who's gonna do the pushing? The mainstream media? The DNC? Somehow, I'm skeptical. Frankly, I'm not sure the Democrats will be considered anything more than a figurehead opposition party after this and 2000. They've seen the soft white underbelly.
2) less educated - those that didn't go to college
Yes continue to believe in your own superiority and don't bother to understand the opponent and you will fail.
The indication by CNN polling is that among those with no high school Kerry got 50% and Bush 49. HS Graduate Kerry 47% and Bush 52. Some College Kerry 46 and Bush 54. College Grad Kerry 46 and Bush 52. Postgrad study Kerry 55 and bush 44.
Another slice - those with no college degree (which was 58% of the electorate) bush 53% Kerry 47.
College graduates (42% of the electorate) - Bush 49 and Kerry 49.
Move on, bitter douchebags.
So says the heartland, Hanna, you avowed athiest who disblieves evoution and hinks religious people are happier, you.
It's clear that the majority of Americans have no problems with living under fascism.
Be careful throwing language around. Politically they are using fascist themes, but the infrastructure for a fascist state is not in place here, things can get a lot worse than this, believe me. This conversation would not be taking place in a fascist society.
The trouble with this language is that it is crying wolf. People have been decrying American "imperialism," inaccurately, for decades. So when our foreign policy changed, to real imperialism, under Bush, we didn't have any verbal ammo left because people had been using the word for years. The things we were doing in Latin America etc. were often wrong stupid an murderous. But they weren't really imperialism in the same robust sense that conquering and remaking Iraq is imperialist.
They think like fascists. But we don't live in a fascist society yet. See that it doesn't happen.
There's a lot of money sloshing around on our side these days, and that's good.
And some of it should go to help the good folks who have taken on the work of finding out exactly where this election went.
Deven, go get your own goddamned blog and post your DLC manifesto without bothering other people.
Clinton tried the "Third Way," and it got our asses kicked. The Republicans took it as unconditional surrender, not parley.
Face it, we got ambushed. We spent so much time dodging the enormous mass of bullshit flung at Kerry that we missed Karl Rove forming the anti-gay-marriage bigots into a bloc.
I don't blame Kerry -- I don't think anyone saw the trapdoor until it opened under our feet.
We underestimated the enormous hatred many Americans feel towards their fellow Americans who are different than they are.
We need to find a way to COUNTER the hatred, make it inoperative, without becoming hateful ourselves. It's something liberals have needed to do since the Civil Rights movement.
Of course being the party of abortion, homosexuality, welfare, socialism, and eco-nuts isn't really helping you either. You guys could help yourselves so much if you would just cut loose the left wing fringe from your party (let the Greens have them) and actually move to the center.
As compared to being the party that want's to throw women in jail, bigotry, social darwinism, predatory unregulated capitalism and pollution? No thanks, I think the Democrats need to present a different vision than "Republican lite" thanks ever so much for your helpful advice though.
Last night America sent the world a message that we are strong, unafraid and will not back down in the face of European timidity.
Ummm, if that's the message we're trying to send, I think we did a poor, poor, job of it.
educated :
keep in mind that Income LEvel increases as education does. SO a lot of those educated folks are just selfish bastards looking for a tax cut.
This is the Repub. coalition: stupid ignorant hicks + evil rich bastards. Apparently a winning combo.
.
educated :
keep in mind that Income LEvel increases as education does. SO a lot of those educated folks are just selfish bastards looking for a tax cut.
This is the Repub. coalition: stupid ignorant hicks + evil rich bastards. Apparently a winning combo.
Remember Dems,
We lost, but this election was NOT a mandate, no matter how anybody tries to dress it up.
Clinton/Reagan election/re-election EV numbers were in the 400-500 range.
THAT's a mandate.
The big story today was that Bush gleaned the biggest popular vote in history.
Yeah, well so did we!
Bigger than anything Reagan ever put up.
Like Dean said, we need to think about how to get the Red state obsession away from Guns, God, Greed and Gays and broaden the topical menu.
We can do this!
the rhetoric in your posting is offensive.why do you have to refer to the president as a "right wing asshole".that is offensive and abrasive and does nothing to further a mutually beneficial dialouge
While calling Kerry a traitor and wearing purple bandaids, now that's classy and fosters mutually beneficial dialogue.
We won't win by being nice little liberals. In fact, we should make a list of all the things these assholes tell us we shouldn't have done and those are the things we should do more of next time.
The media clearly won't at first; but if the DNC had any balls, and they do still have Congress/Senate seats, they could just fillibuster endless monkey-goading speeches into the Congressional etc records. It needn't even be directly related to Bush; just something which will increase the emotional pressure on him. Like endless references to bananas say...
Hanna,
No, L.A. and New York City aren't the "Heartland", but Tupelo, Mississippi, and Omaha, Nebraska, aren't L.A. and NYC. What has always made and still makes this country great is the diversity, from Broadway plays to Friday night high school football. I've lived both, sister, and I'll say it again: all people want exactly the same thing.
Like I said, where do you get off telling somebody who grew up third-generation Irish in a neighborhood in Brooklyn or some kid in Watts that he isn't as "worthy" as someone from your Heartland? What's your criteria, they have to agree with you?
I do not agree the problem was an unclear message or losing to homophobic Christians. I believe Bush won because Kerry focused on tactical missteps by the administration, but could not see the overall strategic direction.
Why Bush won
· Economy
o The economy is not great, but it good enough to not be a negative factor. Purely economic voting models predicted a Bush win.
· Iraq
o The war in Iraq has problems, but not enough to be a negative. Reasonable people can view Iraq as stunning military victory with minimal casualties, and every major objective met on the initial timetable. Reasonable people can view Iraq as more expensive than it is worth, with more casualties than acceptable. And reasonable people can view the situation in Iraq as in between these extremes.
· WMD
o The claim that Iraq did not have WMD was disproved on May 17, 2004, when a sarin (nerve gas) attack was launched against US soldiers. Every claim that Iraq did not have WMDs made after one was used against our armed forces was a nail in the coffin of Kerry’s credibility.
Last night America sent the world a message that we are strong, unafraid and will not back down in the face of European timidity.
Hanna
Last night America sent the world a message that it is a bitterly divided country in which a significant percentage of the electorate thinks that the national election was a sham and another significant percentage of the electorate cast votes based on a proven distorted view of their candidate of choice. No matter one's political posture, this is troubling.
And in other news . . .
"BAGHDAD, Iraq, Nov. 3 - In the latest of a series of attacks on the oil industry, gunmen killed a senior Oil Ministry official as he was commuting to work this morning, a ministry spokesman said.
Insurgents also sent a video to Al Jazeera, the Arab satellite news station, of three Iraqi National Guardsmen being beheaded, and posted another video on the Internet of the decapitation of an Iraqi Army officer"
Hello Pup - don't write off all 11 confederate traitor states just yet: they are pretty diverse. We ain't gonna win Alabama. Florida, Virginia, North Carolina, and yes Texas the second most urban state after New York - all will be in play in coming decades.
Spare the blue states, Osama.
Have at the red ones.
I had no idea that timid Europeans were apparently so threatening that one scored brownie points for "not backing down". Go figure.
Ideas to push:
* Four Freedoms
* Declaration of Independence
* Constitution
Policies to push:
* Fight secrecy in government
* Enact meaningful election reform and standardization
Due respects Atrios, but it won't work. The left and liberal democrats cherish individualism and free thought. The right supplants free thought with a collective message - our God, our country. See the BBC program "The power of nightmares", transcribed by vaara at silt.com. It's about Leo Strauss, the founding father of neoconservatives, and the struggle against liberal thought and its purported decadence.
We are dealing with the Borg. The only way to defeat it is to let it collapse from within.
o The claim that Iraq did not have WMD was disproved on May 17, 2004, when a sarin (nerve gas) attack was launched against US soldiers. Every claim that Iraq did not have WMDs made after one was used against our armed forces was a nail in the coffin of Kerry’s credibility.
Source? I've never heard this before, and if it were real, the corporate media would never have let us not know about it.
No WMD. WMD in Iraq was and is an outright lie.
I asked 72-year-old Charlie Houck how he voted.
"Bush," he replied.
And what did he expect out of him for the next four years? "About the same as we got now, God help us."
His number one voting issue was Iraq.
"Colin Powell was right. You go in there, you own it. So you gotta’ wipe ‘em out. Kill ‘em all but six. Use them as pallbearers."
Reasoned, educated, republican analysis.
Democratus - All good and worthy fights.
How do we fight the churches? I really am at a loss here. They are where the power presently resides and I don't know what one does about that, frankly.
I think you guys are too quick to say that it was a fair fight.
I thought it was rather strange and spooky how very confident Bush was considering that polls had it so close. There's probably a good reason why we didn't get elevated to terrorist state of alert Red or chartreuse or whatever. There's probably a reason why he stopped being so shrill in his attacks on Kerry and settled down more with a smug smile. He knew he couldn't loose.
And what's the number one thing that could guarantee this in a close race? Weeellll... 30% of the population were voting electronically with the new Diebold machines. No oversights, no open source code, a mickey mouse security system and a program that a ninth grader could write where a system crash can easily erase millions of votes... but it's probably worse than that really.
There was the story posted here earlier about the woman who noticed that all her democratic choices had been recorded as republican. Doesn't that seem awfully suspicious given how many other choices there are (green party, etc?)
If only a small portion of registered democrats had their votes flipped over to republican on the diebold machines - it would guarantee Bush the white house - as well as ensure he still had a nice cooperative Senate and house.
We'll never bloody prove it if that did happen, because the data and code can be easily dumped and none would be the wiser - but I'm still bloody surprised that the people didn't INSIST on better controls, safeguards and oversight on this brand-new and somewhat suspect system.
Granted - there *ARE* Bush supporters out there. But Molly Ivins had it right when she wrote about how largely misinformed they were about their own candidate. Sure, there are some out there who are profiteers who know Bush for what he is and vote for him anyway...but there are scores of others who just believe the mainstream media, think that there are ties between Iraq and 9/11 and believe many other charitable lies. So I think it's a huge mistake to think that the American people genuinely WANT this...
And don't be so fast to complain about Kerry. He did wonderfully in the debates and he has emerged as someone I respect and support whole-heartedly. I don't suddenly stop believing in him because he lost....especially since I never really believed he was going up against people who would fight fair. I was just hoping we'd manage to overcome anyway.
I still hope someday we will... There will come a time when more of America will wake up and say "no" - in such a way that will be extremely hard to hide or cover up - and when that happens, we will start to heal our land, our economy, our hearts and the relations we have with the world. But 'till that happens - we have to remain strong.
Keep fighting the good fight.
I've been saying it every time I hear someone say why didn't Kerry do this or Kerry should have seen it coming: there would always have been another trap door. Rove et al are pros, they fight dirty and the media is alseep at the wheel so there would always have been something. Considering this, and the probable evoting skim of votes, we did really great and should be busy learning how they did it and hoping there's a way without playing too dirty for our consciences.
****This will never work. Fuck the South; forget it, it's theirs and it's never ****
Yeah, I tend to think you're right about this. The south ain't ever going to voe for a liberal. In fact, the red states will never vote for a liberal. After all, you coudn't knock off the relatively vulnerable GWB so you have almost no chance if the repubs put up a strong candidate in 2008. Looks to me like liberals tendency to cluster in a handful of big cities pretty much guarantees that repubs will hold the presidency for many years.
Spare the blue states, Osama.
Have at the red ones.
Anonymous
Please cut this shit out, there are plenty of good people in the "red" states. Stop it, this red/blue thing is a stupid media tool.
I Wrote:
Be a minority party. Stand up and shout. Call them liars. Call them Bigots. Homophobes. Xenophobes.
CALL IT LIKE IT IS!
No more nice guy politics. This shit is too important.
Hanna the Troll Responded:
Wow, that approach will no doubt win many converts in the midwest and south. Radical idea here but how about adopting a set of policies that might actually appeal to red-state voters?
My Reply:
We already have bigoted, homophobic, xenophobic policy makers appealing to redstaters. They are called Republicans. I'm not out to convert people. I don't shout at brick walls. I inform and educate the undecided and the young to my ideas.
Now, aren't your 50 free hours finished?
The level of sexual innuendo and outright obscenity on primetime broadcast television has increased during the Bush presidency
As have the number of abortions.
vidkun | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 4:56 pm |
As in Vidkun Quisling?
I guess it is pretty traitorous to post lies that have been disproven over and over and over again.
Clinton tried the "Third Way," and it got our asses kicked. The Republicans took it as unconditional surrender, not parley.
Um, Clinton was a very popular two-term president. Under Clinton the racial income gap shrank to a historic low and our major cities came back from the dead! I'm sick of people running away from Bill Clinton. To find a better leader you have to go back to Harry S Truman.
Do you people really think that screaming "homophobe" and "bigot" at others are going to get them to agree with you?
What motivated 11 states to place "homosexual marriage amendments" on their ballots? Karl Rove wanting to "engineer a result"?
C'mon! You guys on the Left are always talking about how smart you are and how stupid and deceived Republicans and especially Christians are.
Do you think that conservatives are so dumb that they don't know you have nothing but disdain for them? Please!!
The people that voted for the "same-sex marriage" amendments looked at what happened in Massachusetts; where unelected judges instructed the state legislature to create a law legalizing same-sex marriage because those judges were reading that institution into the Mass Constitution. This is more than just a "moral" issue in these states.
If you guys want to discuss issues - great. If you want to call people Hitler, homophobe, bigots, etc...Don't expect to change a whole lot of hearts and minds.
My two cents...
Do you people really think that screaming "homophobe" and "bigot" at others are going to get them to agree with you?
What motivated 11 states to place "homosexual marriage amendments" on their ballots? Karl Rove wanting to "engineer a result"?
C'mon! You guys on the Left are always talking about how smart you are and how stupid and deceived Republicans and especially Christians are.
Do you think that conservatives are so dumb that they don't know you have nothing but disdain for them? Please!!
The people that voted for the "same-sex marriage" amendments looked at what happened in Massachusetts; where unelected judges instructed the state legislature to create a law legalizing same-sex marriage because those judges were reading that institution into the Mass Constitution. This is more than just a "moral" issue in these states.
If you guys want to discuss issues - great. If you want to call people Hitler, homophobe, bigots, etc...Don't expect to change a whole lot of hearts and minds.
My two cents...
The claim that Iraq did not have WMD was disproved on May 17, 2004, when a sarin (nerve gas) attack was launched against US soldiers. Every claim that Iraq did not have WMDs made after one was used against our armed forces was a nail in the coffin of Kerry’s credibility.
And, yet, in the debates, Bush failed to point this amazing fact out!
Having unfortunately inherited some red state relatives through marriage, they are indeed evil bigoted ignorant scum.
And they're breeding like rabbits.
Read C.M. Kornbluth's classic story, "The Marching Morons" if you want to see one possible future for Amerikkka.
Sorry, I'll be all upbeat and defiant tomorrow, but today: fuck all.
Please cut this shit out, there are plenty of good people in the "red" states. Stop it, this red/blue thing is a stupid media tool.
Another Bruce | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 5:01 pm | #
As someone who lives in a red state - and likes catfishing, Hank Williams Jr. and can chew Red Man without gagging, as well as philosophy and quantum mechanics - I heartily concur. The thing that got me about last night's results was that with very few exceptions, neither candidate won most of their states by any sort of enormous margin. The idea that everyone in Georgia thinks exactly alike politically is as dumb as thinking people in Grass Valley define how people in Bakersfield think just because both are in California.
It's lazy.
We are dealing with the Borg. The only way to defeat it is to let it collapse from within.
warp resident
Extremely apt description, but we can certainly assist with the GOP's destruction. They've got plenty of rope to hang themselves: a one-party government and a house of cards (war, economy, health care, social security, extremist ideology which has marginalized moderate GOPs) just waiting to collapse. We need to ensure that the GOP's propaganda machine is not there to obscure the country's view of the GOP's folly, and we need to continue to resist the radicalization of our political system.
The whitehouse is already calling this an "historic" victory.
Yeah - the most historic rip-off of the american people. Ever.
Anyone have any news on vote fraud? I'm hearing some serious negative votes tallies on some machines, etc.
Last night America sent the world a message that we are strong, unafraid and will not back down in the face of European timidity.
Last night America sent the terrorists the message that they indeed have won, that they can instill fear in at least half of the American populace, and Hanna, for one, is proud to send that message.
"What motivated 11 states to place "homosexual marriage amendments" on their ballots? Karl Rove wanting to "engineer a result"?"
I'll tell you what motivated them: bigotry, plain and simple.
Don't give me that crap about activist judges etc. The only reason to be against gay marriage in the first place is because you hate gay people.
.
"Why not just come out and say, "We're throwing fags in jail. We're putting abortionists on trial."
SP
------------
So long as this is how poorly Democrat activists understand those that vote against them, they're doomed to many, many gloomy day-after-election-days...
Take a long, long look in a mirror....
Stan
-------
Stan needs a lesson in reading comprehension. What I said what that I won't believe that such a strategy would work, I don't believe 51% of the country would agree with such a message, maybe 20% would and the rest are being misled.
2) less educated - those that didn't go to college
Yes continue to believe in your own superiority and don't bother to understand the opponent and you will fail.
Didn't mean to offend anyone. Was just repeating what I heard this morning on AirAmerica. Used the exact phrase they did. I don't have any judgment in the phrase.
Good to see that CNN had different stats.
I also agree that more educated usually means more money, which becomes "I'm scared to death I'm going to lose this money to you", which means repugs.
I say we start a strike against the SCLM right-wing style: email advertisers and the such until we get better coverage of the war. Question why the reporters were never outraged over the lack of transparency in the White House and Bush's aversion to questions from the press. We're all pissed and still motivated, let's harness it.
Sarin is NOT a WMD.
Get a clue.
Only real WMD = nukes
Not poison gas, not "dirty bombs".
Unless by WMD you just mean "weapon with which a lot of people can be killed", which means that a machete is now classified as a WMD, and every country in the world is eligible for a US invasion.
Israel has nukes. Iran, let's say, is worried that Israel might nuke them. On the Republicans' logic, this gives Iran the right to invade Israel.
.
Gary F -
The nerve gas shell was left over from the Iran/Iraq war. Insurgents thought it was a bomb and rigged it with a detonator as an IED. It didn't blow because it was filled with old gas. The troops weren't injured. The mainstream media did run the story, but it was not a big deal because the WMD was old ordinance and didn't work anyway. The story doesn't prove that there were WMD stockpiles at any point - the shell was unmarked, apparently nobody knew what it was and missed it when chemical weapons were being destroyed.
Tena, I'd be really, really leery of saying we have to "fight the churches." Please don't let's forget that the hard-right evangelical dominionist wingnuts are a minority of the tens of millions of folks who go to church.
The problem is not religion. The problem is *nutty* religion. The same folks who poured money into the get-Clinton VRWC and the hard-right think tanks (Scaife, et al.) have also been pouring money into groups that seek "conservative" take-overs of the mainline denominations. (A lot of which money gets funneled through the Institute for Religion and Democracy.)
Now, how you combat the *nuts* without alienating the social-justice oriented church folk is a different, and maybe harder, question.
Democrats still don't get it. And it appears they will never get it for a long time.
The left has hijacked the Democrat party of Lyndon Johnson and John F. Kennedy. Dukakis, Carter and Kerry don't even come close to JOhnson and Kennedy (not the Massachusett's conservative senator).
The left dominates the Democrat party.
The feminazis (not the women), the abortionists (who would never consider adoption), the gay rights activists (not gays), the anti-gun activists (not responsible gun owners), the union bosses (not the union members), the black racist leadership, aka Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who took the black vote for granted(not the new emerging independent black voters), the environmental kooks, who worship yellow ants and obscure fish and putting roadblocks to the economic progress and prosperity), the trial lawyers (who are sue happy), and the pacifist/defeatist gang that hates a strong American military power and our brave soldiers in the harm's way, and the old Media -Washington Post, New York Time, CBS, NBC, ABC (and their European cronies Le Monde and the Guardian) are the in control of the leadership of the Democrat party.
Nobody is as intolerant and bigotted than a leftist. Just read their webblogs which are filled with "f***"ing words and obscenities. Welcome to the civil discourse. No wonder the left cannot have a successful talk radio, because they cannot respond when confronted with the facts and/or logical arguments.
I say more power to them. It must be the Almighty Lord's curse.
Keep up the good work my good leftists.
And very soon the Democrat party will be a regional party.
I say no to healing and appeasement.
In 2000 we did not know what was about to hit us. Now we do.
I agree with the poster upthread who said to email all your Democratic representatives and tell them to fight.
This is war.
No compromise. They don't compromise, why the hell should we?
If we want to win, we have to come up with a product that everyone wants for reasons they strongly believe in---and then market it.
Soon Americans will want peace and prosperity and they will understand that they absolutely don't have it as they watch the body bags come home. They don't get that right now because they haven't reached their limits on killing. The bigotry also feels better right now than peace and they aren't poor enough---or pissed about other things, like losing their retirments. You can't sell pension protection until everyone thinks they really need it.
The reason for this is that the left has concentrated itself in a relative handful of states. Move out of your insular urban nests and experience real america. You might even get to participate in choosing the nominee!
Hanna darlin', I'm a working gay man who kicks ass and takes names in everything he does. And I can say without fear of contradiction from you that Bush voters simply don't know what they're talking about; certainly down here in Dallas.
Bush himself can't even come to grips with evolution, which has lately led to some very interesting breakthroughs in the science of self-organization.
I will never, ever, ever leave my "insular urban nest" to thrash around in the swill you call "real America."
Sorry to say that, but we all rooted for you - in Switzerland, Bush would have made no more than 7 percent, according to surveys.
But, as Kerry said, you all wake up as Americans after an election. And that seems to be a bit of a problem. Therefore, the following, very well-meant travel-advisory:
Re-electing Rain Boy by such a margin eliminates any distinction between opposition to the administration and plain anti-americanism in Europe. So no matter who you voted for, from now on, you better start decorating your baggage with those Canadian flags, if you plan to travel overseas. You'll get much better service, believe me. Have a nice trip, though!
B.
email advertisers and the such until we get better coverage of the war. Question why the reporters were never outraged over the lack of transparency in the White House and Bush's aversion to questions from the press. We're all pissed and still motivated, let's harness it.
-Rock
that's a good idea about the advertisers, since writing directly to the media didn't do jack. they responded the same way the republicans do to the truth, shrugging it off as some kind of "liberal-biased" crap. like, wtf, so they get a bunch of letters (or oh-ho-ho VOTES) that disagree with them... instead of taking it into consideration they just ram more of the same down our throats.
"The left dominates the Democrat party."
This is so objectively false it amazes me that someone actually believes this. Why did Gore lost votes to Nader, then? Why didn't Kucinich win the nomination? Why are so many leftists so deeply dissatisfied with the Democratic Party?
"they cannot respond when confronted with the facts and/or logical arguments"
As a student of mine said the other day:
That's not just the pot calling the kettle black; that's BLACK calling the kettle black.
Talk about logic from the party of insane religious fundamentalist fanatic praying-to-their-imaginary-friend wackjobs talking about LOGIC?
>
I predict that the best campaigning
for Dems in '06 and '08 wil be accomplished by the spiraling ineptitude of the Republican Party during the interim.
This time you POSITIVELY can't blame it on the Clenis.
Issues that hopefully will resonate with enough people to change course before we head over the cliff:
1) the war. the war. the war. the blood of american soldiers and Iraqui civilians spilled daily in our names.
When, in the Vietnam era, ordinary life was disrupted, and mounting pressure was created by the anti-war movement, and universities were shut down, and enough middle americans saw their son or their neighbors son come home in a box, the power structure had no choice but to withdraw from the war.
2) This goes hand in hand with #1 but it also hits people where they live: unfathomable amounts of our tax money being squandered on the war/the war/the war. $200 billion already earmatrked and $75 billion more just about to be tacked on.
3) health care (the lack thereof) for all americans. The vast majority of people in this country know that their health insurance (if they have any) is a very expensive joke.
4) the huge and growing debt that threatens to subsume the american economy and reduce the standard of living of ordinary people to second world status. Many true conservatives (as opposed to those of the neo-stripe) get this one.
that's probably enough for now. keep it simple and keep it visceral. If we want to pull in the 5 or 7 million more voters it's going to take to swing this battle for the hearts and minds of America the other way, we've got to appeal to the gut as well as to the intellect.
In the meantime keep organizing and do as much as possible to end-run mainstream media, which are clearly utterly corrupt tools of the corporatocracy.
There's been incredible progress made just in the past year in the internet community such as this and other weblogs, Move-On; ACT etc. We saw a massive and well organized worldwide protest movement in the run-up to the invasion that was unprecedented in human history. These things are all extremely hopeful signs that just maybe we can grab the wheel before it's too late if we keep working.
Unfortunately I'm guessing there's not a lot of time before the shit hits the fan in terms of the ramifications of the neo-com agenda. As the man said: "the chickens come home to roost"
That being the case it's even more important for the millions and millions of people who *do* grasp the tragic folly of the current course to stay focused, stay brave, get your thoughts and plans together in a coherent way, and be ready. The winds of history can blow hard and shift course very quickly.
I too disagree that it was the homophobes and RTLers and rapturists who put Bush in office, though those are his core popular support (corporate support is another matter).
I know a few of the other kind of Reps very well. They share most of my beliefs and values. They are intelligent, caring, responsible, generous, tolerant, secular or mildly religious people who would be appalled if they could be brought to realize what they voted for. They don't. They politely but firmly fend off political discussions, but obviously derive their opinions from the bits of time they spend watching Fox or CNN. They think I'm an alarmist, and they were "afraid of" Kerry getting in. IOW they placidly drank the kool-aid, thinking it was real fruit juice, and still don't know the difference.
They don't read blogs or political commentary or in-depth reports, no time even if they were willing. They want their news from "official" sources, summarized for them. They don't go to rallies, and watched only a few bits of the conventions, casually. They sometimes watch Limbaugh for "entertainment". I'm sure they will watch most of the major presidential speeches, but won't do a lot of thinking about them. They trust their government.
We MUST figure out how to reach such people, and they are legion. They're alarmed by aggressive dissention, and skeptical of rants, unlikely to listen to anything strident. They're very busy with their lives, and literally cannot imagine much short of homeland terrorism disrupting their safe little world.
I tell people the tale of the scientist and the boiling frog. Briefly, a frog put into boiling water jumped out instantly. A frog put into cool water that warms gradually stayed in it until it boiled to death. Boiling frogs, as much as anyone, gave Bush his victory. Those can be enlightened--if we can only reach them. Without them the religious right would be only a powerless fringe group, as it used to be.
The people who voted George Bush and the Republicans into office this year didn't do so because they were conned by a right wing asshole posing as a compassionate centrist. They did so precisely because he is a right wing asshole.
AND others who were *afraid* to vote for change (commander in chief...) AND others who voted for student council president...
I have a hard time believing that 51% of Americans wanted the right wing asshole, but I'd really like to know who's in the hard-core percent and who needs to be courted a bit
Boy the syntax of my above post was mangled. But you get the point.
We should also start a national movement to wear black arm bands in mourning:
R.I.P.
A Democratic America
1776-2004
.
many are declaring bush's re-election a mandate to bring a new moral order to america. what does this mean? no more abortions? if you're against abortions don't have one. a simply enough solution.
no to gay marriages? then don't marry a gay. problem solved!
prayer in school? funny that one. i attended a catholic school for 10 years and we prayed every morning. guess what? students still cheated, stole other students' lunches, cursed and fought. and every schoolboy knows that catholic school girls will put out quicker than public school girls.
besides, if prayer is such a bloody big deal why don't families pray together at home before seeing their kids off.
I've heard the "democrats have no message" gripe before. I'm sick of it. John Kerry presented a positive program, and the American people rejected it. If democrats are going to start winning elections, they need to change the program, change the American people, or both. Pretending that somehow liberal or leftist ideas didn't get a fair shake because there was no coherent message is bullshit. The left needs to do a whole lot more than simply present their message, and until it learns that, it will continue to be, at best, a marginal force in American politics.
"...and every schoolboy knows that catholic school girls will put out quicker than public school girls."
been there. done that. amen. agreed.
As for gay marriage, I personally have no problem with it but speaking to someone that does she clearly has friends and acquaintances who are gay and is not overtly homophobic but just has a tough time with it in her face and is feeling sentimental about the marriage of her recently deceased mother and ill father. She thinks its wrong to prohibit a gay partner from getting benefits, visiting hospital, etc. but just can't go the extra step to marriage. What this tells me is that if the gay community had pushed first for some kind of protections without marriage they might have gotten through and then a little later when people were beginning to get used to the idea, then tried for marriage.
It was to much too soon and they got a hell of a smackdown. I am very sorry for everyone that Rove had that card to play. I really thought we were making progress.
Dear Fellow Moonbats,
Well, they did it. Despite all the trickery, special effects and deceit I could muster, they went ahead and elected Bush anyway. Actually, I'm kind of relieved, now I don't have the pressure of being "That Asshole who screwed up politics with his mockumentary." As of right now, I'm looking for any and all Kerry election parties that still have food left on the buffet.
To the fans of my work, fear not, I have some very big plans that I will share with you. I’ll be poking around Florida looking for some disenfranchised minority voters (hopefully about 350,000 of them). Can't wait to edit the film from that trip! And, I'll also be hooking up with Morgan Spurlock, director of the hit film "Supersize Me"...we're doing a sequel called "Mi Mucho Grande" where we eat nothing but Taco Bell for a year and sit around lighting each other's farts and blaming our burns on Haliburton, of course. I smell Cannes!
Or is that something else.....
Love You Guys!
Michael Moore
The RAT's heads are spinning. They are seething with hatred. Bitterness. They are so controlled by immorality that they never considered that the rest of America was sick and tired, vexed, by the culture of death, the crass babykillers, perverts, and socialist leeches who are taxing us to death for social experimentation designed to undermine the fabric of our nation. The forces of darkness have taken a big hit, praise be to God. The President has a clear mandate from the people of the United States. We need to pray for our President. The threat upon his life is huge.-freeper
Trolls, elevated, logical, discourse?
Their billboard said "One Nation under God."
Ours should say, "With Liberty and Justice for All."
Also need to target a few leaders in the Repug party,
Grover Norquist - wants to return to the government before the New Deal (no social security, medicare, etc.)
Karl Rove - Machiavellian general of the party.
Surely someone, somewhere knows unjust truths about these two. And have the proof to back it up. Unbelievable that they have gotten away with their unscrupulous tactics all the way to the White House, twice!!!
We the sheep of the United State, in order to form a more pre-fucked union, establish the illusion of justice, insure democrats are tranquilized, provide for the common defense department contract, promote the corporate welfare, and secure the blessings of power to our elves and our posteriers, do insist the ordained establish the constitution of the United States of America
What motivated 11 states to place "homosexual marriage amendments" on their ballots? Karl Rove wanting to "engineer a result"?
In the case of Kentucky, at least, *one* of the factors was that there was this State Senator who wanted to run for U.S. Senate, and knew that he'd need to inocculate himself against getting painted as a gay-marriage-lovin', latte-drinkin', John-Kerry-supportin' librul (this in a state that Bush ended up taking 60-40). So he co-sponsored the resolution that put the Marriage Amendment on the ballot.
Funny thing, though -- the Rethugs *still* ended up smearing him with gay innuendo ("limp wristed", "switch hitter", "don't even know if the word 'man' applies to him"). So much for inocculation.
Alterman is mybe right, maybe wrong. There are more of us than them, belief-wise; more of them who get off their asses to vote.
Bullmoose is dead on and an isue I've had for a couple of years: Even with a majority or a sympathetic majority, we do a lousy... well, actually, we don't do any job of selling our message. (Of course, given the state of the media, I don't know whether our message can be sold now anyway. And what helped the rightists was Big Media's visceral antipathy for Carter and Clinton: they could do no right -- no pun intended.)
I have no doubt that things are going to get worst, a lot worse.
And Kerry's concession at this early date was a complete -- I was going to say embarrassment. It was a complte insult, aflipping of the bird no us (as if his flaccid campaign wasn't).
Reminder: We only score when we, pardon the qiuoting of Barry Goldwater, provide a choice, not an echo.
We need to ensure that the GOP's propaganda machine is not there to obscure the country's view of the GOP's folly, and we need to continue to resist the radicalization of our political system
It won't be necessary. Very soon the scandals and corruption at the foundation of this administration will become so egregious that even a republican congress won't be able to cover it up. At that point there is a chance that reason will prevail and we will relive 1974. My personal feeling is that the seed has already been planted by the intelligence community.
What this tells me is that if the gay community had pushed first for some kind of protections without marriage they might have gotten through
No, it wouldn't.
There were just too many of them who didn't want gay people to have anything at all that would resemble marriage or any of its components.
That's what their proposed amendment is for: to invalidate marriages and civil unions, and any carefully-constructed legal arrangements that would serve to simulate some aspects of marriage.
In short, the people we're dealing with are emulating their ideological forebears, the Nazis. You know what it took to put them down. I have a bad feeling that this current crop of fascists will not go gently into that good night, either.
obviously people are grasping at straws today, to explain what has happened to this country (and the world)... and i really sympathize with the desire to understand it and maybe deal with notions that in the end don't add up, as a way of rationalizing, etc.
but, for me, the place we are in today is as a result, clearly, of the state of our educational system. yes, there are other things, but this is so obviously the bedrock core of what results in a society that we disapprove of.
You'll never get anywhere playing defense. Always attack, demonize your opponent with tiny details - those were the rules for GOPAC.
Unless you have the guts to caricature the right's base, humiliate it, you're going to go nowhere. And THAT just isn't in most leftists makeup.
Nice guys finish last. This is what oldman means when he says 'not ready to rule.'
History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy (Civil War), the second time as farce (the election.)
You really think we were beat?
Okay,,, verify it.
Nuf said.
I do agree with the point about the educational system. I grew up in the 70's in CA and I will always be grateful to hippie English teachers that weren't so concerned with quizzes and tests and were more concerned with THINKING and WRITING. They taught me how to think about the world in different ways, God Bless 'em.
The way I see it, we didn't screw up and lose, the GOP ran a brilliant campaign and won. Rather than demonizing a majority of voters as assholes, we should look at the campaign and see if there are tactics and strategies we can mimic. The Right got so big by imitating the Left, after all. Now it's our turn.
Their big strength: message discipline. They repeated the same attacks hundreds of times, even after they had been discredited. Eventually the media let them run with it. There is a danger to this tactic: the Bushies actually act as if their bullshit is true. This is called "Groupthink." They used to know the difference between spin and reality, but it's gotten lost.
That said, clear message wins elections. Everyone in the country can recite the GOP party line on what Bush stands for and what they said is wrong with John Kerry. Even many strong Democrats have trouble stating what we stand for. It's not that we don't stand for things, it's that we don't have the language and don't know how to play the stupid media.
So get to work. And learn something from Rove: not in terms of policy, in terms of how it was communicated to the masses.
"Dig in. Be a minority party. Stand up and shout. Call them liars. Call them Bigots. Homophobes. Xenophobes.
CALL IT LIKE IT IS!
No more nice guy politics"
I couldn't agree more. Some people will disagree, but I think that until we begin to shame the ignorant, they'll never wake up change their ways, and I'm going to start with my own family. It's a bitch living here in a red state and being surrounded by
people who still don't know that there are no WMD in Iraq and who think that people in Europe love us to death, but I'm fed up with the ignorance so I'm just going to start speaking out instead of keeping the peace. And if people's feelings get hurt or they get mad, so be it. They should be on this end of it, feeling infinately frustrated because there's no way to get through the ignorance to make a point.
Education is certainly an element. Our kids are being taught en masse to learn by rote, and not to think critically. Their every waking hour is structured, so they don't learn to think, plan and decide for themselves. This is great for group-think, but bad for individual critical thought.
That said, this is copping out on the current issue; changing the educational and parenting systems and waiting for the kids to grow up would take decades even if we could--and knew just how to change it the right way.
Adults too can be educated, or at least moved to change their views. Bush and his cohorts certainly know how to achieve that. Are we to concede their greater wisdom, competence and general superiority?
This is much bigger than what the talking heads tell us about a united south making it harder for democrats to get elected.
click the homepage if you're interested, but the real dilemna is that our country is being balkanized by ideology, region and orientation
I agree, the dems will need to sit down with guys like warner of virginia (who seems to win in spite of the fundies) and great secular speakers who do not offend athiests or alienate the fundies, but the real deep problem is the nature of our country right now.
Think about it - this election only showed us again how divided we are; it didn't project a winner in any regard (no matter how they spin the losses in congress). Sure, we are the minority party now - but the rethugs came back themselves with greater odds and less money, so we too can work the margins as the new message gets developed - there is a huge electorate out there that neither party has tapped - the trick is how do we get young people to vote and how do we energize minorities to join the same campaign. democrats have spent so much time trying to be like rethugs, they forgot that their party was the one based in inspiration
Their big strength:
Channeling their hate through a psychosocial figurehead.
For once in my life I disagree with Atrios - "But, don't be fooled - people know what they voted for." Based on dicussions I have had with R's at my office I think a lot of them have allowed their busy lives to prevent them from really investigating how the R's were running the country. They saw some of the ugly attacks from the R's and took the assertions in those attacks as true or with some truth (the old "where there's smoke" thing.)
I'd call a lot of them lazy as to their citizenship responsibilities, though I agree that there are also many who are homophobic, smug, jingoistic and selfish.
Dear hannah:
There are NO converts to be had in the south. I've lived in two southern states, Loosyanna and Okiedom. It gets murkier and darker, and more and more malevolent there with every passing day.
That's a lot of BS, Kerry explained exactly where he stood on the issues, over and over again. And where he stood is right in line with where the party stands. All this soul searching and...
The real issue is DIEBOLD, think about it, Ohio and Florida. Diebold's CEO saying "we will deliver the electoral votes to Bush".
Rove saying he expected 4 million more evangelical votes. Bush won by 3.5 mil + the 500,000 that Gore won by in 2000. What a coincidence! They had this all set up, and it went just as planned.
Why the hell weren't the Democrats screaming about a paper trail since Max Cleland's election was hijacked in Georgia? The evidence has been out there and they've been aware of it.
I guess Bart is right, as long as the Dem's act like gentlemen and don't fight, we're fucked!
At least 9 out of 10 anti-gay ballot props passed (anybody know about Oregon's?).
It passed, 'Pup. (Click homepage for details.)
anyone interested in a voter fraud thread? or are most of you too timid and depressed to consider it? The self-criticism in this thread is important, but we really need to address the fraud issue instead of tiptoeing around it. Even if nothing can be done about it in this election, we need to make damn (or F**** if you like) sure that it can't happen again.
The Democrats werent' screaming because they have exacly the same stake in the status quo as the GOPukes. Neither Dems nor GOPukes want any changes. They're in office BECAUSE things are as they are...Nobody already in wants to change anything...
The fact is, as long as the Left continue to support abortion rights (and partial-birth abortion in particular), the Right will continue to hate their guts. It's pretty damn simple, really, and it's what this election was really all about. When the Right talk about "morality", that's what they're talking about. Compromise sucks. Fascism sucks worse.
Elwood - How quickly we forget...
The Rove campaign's central message was to destroy the character and therefore potential trust in John Kerry. He used a variety of verbal symbols to do that but his "message" really didn't have too much to do with what they were doing or planned to do but how horrible John Kerry is. Is that what you mean by a simple message that we should emulate?
Its not just the simplicity of the message either but having a real knowledge of the American people and what they think they are and what they want to believe that is also key.
I actually think that it may take some time in the wilderness here for Democrats to get back in touch with our roots. I frankly don't think that we have been for quite some time. We have run from being called "liberal" - sigh - the saddest self denial.
We'll see. Our country is a pretty confusing place right now...our party is pretty confused as well in my opinion.
of course there was fraud, T Bell - and it was probably done more in the rural areas where the fundies bused their Klan to vote early and often in a number of states --- heck, that's an old playbook from the mayor daley days -- and provisional ballots thrown out like the trash
i truly believe there a number of ghosts in this election and the fun is just beginning to start
There aren't more of "them" than "us".
"They" voted for Bush because they were shockingly ignorant of his stands on issues, whether Saddam was connected with 9/11, etc. This is the fault of the media's laziness and "on-the-one-hand"-ism. We only lost by a couple of percentage points. If "they" hadn't been under such pervasive misconceptions, we would have won.
Next time, THE CANDIDATE HIM/HERSELF should go after the media and point out the misconceptions people are under.
There aren't more of "them" than "us".
"They" voted for Bush because they were shockingly ignorant of his stands on issues, whether Saddam was connected with 9/11, etc. This is the fault of the media's laziness and "on-the-one-hand"-ism. We only lost by a couple of percentage points. If "they" hadn't been under such pervasive misconceptions, we would have won.
Next time, THE CANDIDATE HIM/HERSELF should go after the media and point out the misconceptions people are under.
How do we fight the churches? I really am at a loss here. They are where the power presently resides and I don't know what one does about that, frankly.
Tena
I am going to fight them by never again "making nice" by not telling people exactly how I feel about them when they, or their God, comes up in conversation.
I don't care if I am never part of the "mainstream" in America. I wouldn't have been part of the mainstream in Nazi Germany, either.
I will live my life well, travel, eat well, and love well. I will spend money well. And I will hate republicans like the blight on the earth that they are. But I won't let that hate stop me from living a wonderful life, here by the ocean, looking out for me and my own.
FUCK mid-America...let them work at wal-mart and live their backwards lives in the suburbs.
The real issue is DIEBOLD, think about it, Ohio and Florida. Diebold's CEO saying "we will deliver the electoral votes to Bush".
believe me when i say i'm willing to concede that Rove Co. is capable of stealing the election via voting machines (if for no other reason than they knew if kerry won the justice department would have an indictment spree on their hands... so in essence, as a form of self-survival).
but, when talking about stealing the election, the fact is that we were beat last night, whether or not specfic areas were rigged. we got fucking routed in basically all our senate bids that were supposed to be close, we lost by 4 million votes, etc... and the most overwhelming and damning fact... there are people in this country who think bush is legitimate. that right there is something that shows we've already lost. i mean, what's 2 blocks when the car's already dragged your ass over pavement through the city limits ?
does that make any sense?
I'm a troll, just soaking up the fun of watching so many of you self-destruct. I really enjoy this so please continue to produce candidates like Howard Dean and John Kerry and Ralph Nader. And do continue to have folks like Michael Moore, Cher, Al Franken, George Soros, Sean Penn, et al. telling me how to vote. And perhaps most importantly, keep using lots of personal insults and profanity in your posts to embelish the incandescent lunacy being espoused. In other words, just keep on doing what you seem to do best. Thanks.
Manny:
Compromise sucks. Fascism sucks worse.
How does one compromise with fascists, who will NOT compromise? that's a full-on LOSING proposition...
the only good fascist is a dead fascist.
WoodyGuthrie'sGuitar(aka
Regarding Backslider's comment about the division in this country...
I think it would be very instructive for someone here who knows how to do this, or the democratic hierarchy, to Identify the states which split the vote closely. Then I think we need to, as well as getting our identity more together, we need to begin now thinking about those states and working on them.
There were just too many of them who didn't want gay people to have anything at all that would resemble marriage or any of its components.
That's what their proposed amendment is for: to invalidate marriages and civil unions, and any carefully-constructed legal arrangements that would serve to simulate some aspects of marriage.
In short, the people we're dealing with are emulating their ideological forebears, the Nazis. You know what it took to put them down. I have a bad feeling that this current crop of fascists will not go gently into that good night, either.
Seraphiel
Thank you Seraphiel...excellent post.
Former Kerry supporters to-do list.
(additions to this list are welcome!)
1.) first of All join the ACLU.
2.) torment Diebold corp
a.) if your bank uses their ATMs,
complain, if they continue to use
Diebold, switch banks & tell your
bank why.
b.) demand voting machines with
i.) verifiable audit trails
(paper) & a real in-line
audit system.
ii.) opensource code, what
they´ve got is a joke, but it´s
kind of hard to fight them when
they just mumble about
¨propriatory¨ code, when
confronted with what they use.
iii.) Real Security, what
they´ve now got is a joke.
Continue to point that out.
3.) continue to fact check all proposed federal policies.
a.) Remember the Patriot Act II
is likely to come up again, &
extending Patriot I´s reach &
permancy is also likely to be an
issue sometime in the next four
years.
b.) don´t forget enviormental
issues. Remember GWB is
dismantaling a system that was
created by a ¨conservative¨
president, Richard Nixon. This
should be a issue
for any real conservatives.
Doing our countries business in
an enviormentialy safe manner is
just good management. Don´t let
the GWB administration try to
marginilize this issue as some
sort of leftest agenda.
What has to happen, is to keep up the pressure even though you feel like your just shoving elephants around. Eventually you´ll get some movement.
Presumably, you think all the people who voted for Bush are "right wing asshole" bigots. That's the way to win hearts and minds.
first?
realist | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 3:40 pm | #
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Having a strong "message" is rather contrary to liberal ideals. I hope as sullivan says that the union can break down into red states and blue states. You want dope illegal? fine! it is crime! don't smoke it. We, over here, on the other hand, will. (same for all the other divisive issues).
Since america didn't work as one country (leaving europe to show how it might be done) then have it work as 50 countries.
anon | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 3:42 pm | #
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Well you're right, Atrios. Truth to tell, while I still love John Kerry, he didn't do anything to help put our message out there because apparently we haven't made it clear yet.
Tell you what, though - I've thought for the last several weeks that in a lot of ways we are better off being the gadflies right now, and not the status quo.
That said, what I find so hard is not that we lost here, because if it was just a question of what happens here, I could live with the loss a whole lot easier.
Tena | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 3:44 pm | #
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Ow. Ow. Ow.
Time to regroup and hit em again. We'll win in 2 years and again in 4, if there is anything left...
Cloned Wolf | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 3:44 pm | #
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Bless you, Atrios. How you can continue to blog amazes me - I am barely able to read anything and I've had the TV on HGTV all day to avoid the disaster.
pixie | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 3:47 pm | #
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Some commentator last night (Novak? Greenfield?) was saying we need to accept the reality of the "solid south" and deal with it somehow. When you think about the various ways that the GOP panders to it in code-speak like state's rights, traditions, and so on, I hope this isn't high on our agenda. We have other arrows in our quiver, and we win nothing by shaping ourselves to fit them.
It's not a deodorant we're marketing here.
OT Blog whoring: Anyone give any thought to the rest of the Osama Bin Laden video? I think he was gaming us, and so was the State Department by insisting that it not be released.
Frank | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 3:48 pm | #
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"We need to figure out just what our ideas and message are"
Gee, I thought "the truth" would do it.
Let's face it, we're living in a republic of the stupid, by the stupid, for the stupid.
I'm just going to shoot myself in the mouth, for the good of the country.
Merkin | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 3:48 pm | #
--Hey Old Coot - can't get enough fun out of just enjoying your victory party - just have to come over and kick us around a little too? Says everything about what you all are. Enjoy. Just remember, its all on you now. No excuses. Sleep well.
I'm increasingly getting the sense that part of the problem is that at the moment it isn't clear just what this infrastructure is supposed to be supporting. We need to figure out just what our ideas and message are
Exactly right. I've been thinking about this very question a lot. For one thing, we have a great moral tradition on the Left, which combines Enlightenment principles with the central ideals of religion. We believe in freedom of religion, but also believe that some things can never be justified by religion. Religious beliefs can never be used as an excuse to take away basic rights; they can only offer a reason to protect them. You can use religion to make yourself more moral, but not to punish others for immorality. I think these ideas are pretty basic, and ought to resonate with people who don't like the Taliban much. The sad thing is, many of us don't actually know much about our own intellectual pedigree, so we're not too good at disseminating it!
As for "welfare," I like Randi Rhodes' argument that a society is only as strong as its weakest member, and that in lifting up the disadvantaged, well-off people are doing themselves a good turn.
Anyway, it's a good question. The right - especially the religious right - wake up every morning ready to fight for their cause. The Left has never been that way, in my experience. We need an infrastructure we can contribute to every day, but it can't be the usual sort of scatterbrained, reactive advocacy group without a focused message.
To me, it seems like a good question to ask a guy like George Lakoff. I mean, our ideas are only the ones this goddamn country was supposedly founded on...it shouldn't be that hard to get them across!
don't feed the troll. believe me when i say he knows in his heart how bankrupt his beliefs are. trying to make it conscious for him is a losing battle and waste of energy.
Regarding Backslider's comment about the division in this country...
I think it would be very instructive for someone here who knows how to do this, or the democratic hierarchy, to Identify the states which split the vote closely. Then I think we need to, as well as getting our identity more together, we need to begin now thinking about those states and working on them.
Carolyn
Governor Warner of Virgina would be that guy to help with the strategy of how to crack the fundie vote - and a secular voice to along with that would obama out of illinois -- speaks in a way that doesn't offend athiests and doesn't threaten the fundies -- that's the bottom line
Presumably, you think all the people who voted for Bush are "right wing asshole" bigots. That's the way to win hearts and minds.
if the alternative is launching the country into a lie of a war and killing 100,000 civilians in the process (to win 'hearts and minds')
then fuck yeah!
Presumably, you think all the people who voted for Bush are "right wing asshole" bigots. That's the way to win hearts and minds.
Robert
Who cares? Rightwing assholes and bigots have neither. Like trying tro teach a pig to sing...
Crying in Connecticut. I spoke to my fellow-employees about my depression, and they were all like, "good, Bush should have won, too bad". We haven't won Connecticut, we haven't won their minds or their souls, and I don't know who they are because they are strangers now. I don't know what makes them tick, but it's a divided country. Maybe they just don't read blogs.
And so we beat on, boats against the current, born ceaselessly into the past............or something like that. Welcome to the Dark Ages II.
The election was stolen. Black box voting. I do not believe the huge turnout we saw was composed of a "majority" who wanted more of the same nightmare.
That said, my next step is to finish reading everything I can get my hands on by Gene Sharp and his colleague Robert Helvey. They are specialists in assertive, agressive nonviolent resistance. I want to know, study, and understand these tools, which have been used successfully in many other countries, even under many horrendous scenarios.
Then I want to contact these two great strategists at their organization, the Albert Einstein Institution (www.aeinstein.org) to find out from them which activist groups in this country have been most interested in their methods and strategies.
I want to be prepared for the oppression I believe will be coming. I think most folks I've heard from today are in denial about how dreadful it will be. I understand. I too am in shock. The nightmare I never thought would come true is here.
For the moment, for me it's a question of regrouping, meditating on strategies, getting ready for the struggle.
Presumably, you think all the people who voted for Bush are "right wing asshole" bigots. That's the way to win hearts and minds.
Robert
actually i think their are "right wing asshole" bigots; and then there is another segment in the rethug party that combines sociopathic behavior with attention deficit disorder -- you guys are like the john lovitz pathological liar character -- but hand it to you guys on the right: if you're nothing else you're consistent and do have a firm grasp on the concept of "suspension of disbelief" -- works great for tom clancy novels, but not running a country
Values issues are tough for the "all inclusive" Democratic Party. Ours is the party that likes to "include" people, not exclude.
That being said though, we have a dire need to change in my opinion.
Abortion rights, gay marriage, judicial activism with 2nd Amendment Establishment Clause issues. All these issues are seen by Churches as the "liberal" agenda. With the revival of religion in this nation, it is hard to argue politics based on logic. It is based on emotion and religion.
We need to be able to articulate OUR religious, and emotional draw that defines what a liberal is. We should be able to draw from the teachings of Jesus (and other religions, and non-religious moral values as well), such as the "Beatitudes", the golden rule, the teachings of Jesus such as where he says "as you have done to the least of these, your brothers, you have done to me".
We also need to debunk the religious and emotional arguments against being liberal. HOW to do that is the question.
Do we abandon the abortion issue, or come to a compromise of sorts (maybe make a push for technology that makes abortion obsolete -- removing and freezing a fetus/embryo until later, or until a person willing to adopt it can be found, I dont know)?
Do we push for contractual rights (civil unions) among gay partners, rather than marriage rights?
Do we try to find a middle ground for religious freedoms (2nd Amendment issues). In other words, champion the right to practice religion in public places, but with certain restrictions and safeguards that would hopefully balance everyone's rights.
I fear that if we dont nullify these "value" issues, by making some sort of compromise/concessions, those issues will keep Democrats out of office, and will keep us from other very important issues, such as the role that goverment can play in education, the environment, healthcare, defense, pre-emptive strikes against foreign countries, government regulation of big business, loss of the progressive tax structure, loss of privacy rights, immigration issues, outsourcing of jobs, and an increasingly Big-Brother type government that grows exponentially and intrusively, deficit spending, and social security.
I feel these issues FAR outweigh the 3 "value" issues that likely cost the Democrats the last 2 presidential elections, and cost many Congressmen and Senators their elections.
I think our party needs to seriously rethink these "value" issues that lose our party so many votes in any future strategy, or platform. These other issues are too important for our country.
What makes them tick (NYT OpEd):
It was inspiring yesterday morning to see the lines of voters at the polls around the nation, but the mood was worrisome. Party loyalty was not the overarching emotion this year. Neither was enthusiasm for either of the candidates. The main emotion seemed to be contempt for the other side and the main divisions over lines of moral belief and fears about personal and national security that no position paper or 30-second spot can bridge.
Clueless. Utterly clueless, aren't you?
If the rest of us were only smart enough to give are salaries to you, who, we should see, are the only ones smart enough to distribute all wealth fairly and equitably.
But, first, let's gut all the churches. Because, after all, they are the true evil.
What a message of hope you have there! And you call the right intolerant?
Which brings me back full circle to "Clueless."
Good luck and may God bless and enlighten you. Yes, even you.
This is a confession:
As I stood in line to vote, what crept into my mind was - the guy in front of me looks like a Bush supporter. It was like being in a scene from "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers".
I agree with you Kate.
The immediate problem now is, how do we stop the Dominionists? Their going to think it's their destiny to rule this country now. God, I hope some Rupublicans in congress wake up, because the Democrats are in a bad spot and most of them are spineless anyway.
philates--
Lakoff's been saying pretty much the same thing for 25 years, since Metaphors We Live By, which he published (with philosopher Mark Johnson) in 1980. Frames, as a psychosocial concept goes back, explicitly, to Erving Goffman.
fyi
But, first, let's gut all the churches. Because, after all, they are the true evil.
(incoherance snipped)
And you call the right intolerant?
simple question: do you think it's intolerant to believe anybody who does not subscribe to the carbon copy same religious belief as you will go to hell is 'tolerant'?
I just hope someone feels the need to impress Jody Foster again.
We need not torch churches. We need only tax them.
I just hope someone feels the need to impress Jody Foster again.
devils' advocate | Email | Homepage | 11.03.04 - 6:17 pm | #
Shut the fuck up, asshole.
eat me
don´t feed the trolls
fyi
Konopelli
I know. I'm just talking about from a think-tank perspective. All the theory is out there...everything we need to know is pretty much already known. The question is how to turn it into infrastructure that actually works.
I just hope someone feels the need to impress Jody Foster again.
and hopefully they think long and hard about who the VP is before they do it.
Honest to god, if the trolls really believed in themselves and the crap they spout they wouldn't be over here. They don't, so they come over here hoping to demoralize us because they know that all they have going for them is hate.
We're bigger than that and they can stew in their own hate and ugliness. No need to follow them into their own filth.
Just leave them alone.
No militant monotheism is structurally capable of religious tolerance: too paradoxical, totally oxymoronic. One god means intolerance of any possibility of diversity. QED.
One thing I can recommend to to study (even though you´ll feel like bleaching your brain after reading their text) the conservative movement, from before the Regan administration to find out how they built up their movement so strong, in those years.
After Qusay W. Bush's reign ends in 2008, will we be led by Gov. Uday Bush?
no shark, its your moral leader who knows how to distribute wealth fairly and equitably - cronies, military industry, oil services.
So what if he's mortageing your child to China. Your soul will be saved, eh.
We're bigger than that and they can stew in their own hate and ugliness. No need to follow them into their own filth.
Just leave them alone.
Tena
Very true. What matters to us isn't winning, it's fighting on the correct side. Not a single one of us would trade places with a troll in order to have had a "win" today. If you can't win in this country by being reasonably honest and compassionate, and preferring the truth to lies, and not increasing the misery of the miserable and the poverty of the poor, then I'll swear on whatever you like that I'm content to lose, and lose big.
Devil's advocate = troll
Just curl up and die, butthead
Robert Reich has a new book called "Reason: Why Liberals Will Win the Battle for America". He embraces this idea that we should be proud of what we believe and what liberals have accomplished for the good of all in this country. He will be interviewed on Wisconsin Public Radio tomorrow at 9am CST or 10am EST. Anyone can listen live online at WWW.wpr.org. Click on "Listen Live to the Ideas Network". Anyone can also call in and ask a question or offer a comment.
Oddbit
I never heard John Kerry talk about taxes as the dues we pay to live in our ever-so exclusive community, our vast and beautiful country.
That would have been a start, and I've been using that line of thought in conversations and (before i quit teaching) in classrooms since 1984--possibly one of the reasons i'm no longer employed, come to think about it...I held students, colleagues, and myself responsible for what we said.
Here's another frame that needs work: Notice how, in news/media reports of labor mediation, unions always "demand" while bosses always "offer"???
Perhaps people can shrug off Bush's agenda by saying that well I am not gay, or I am not about to get an abortion, or I am not ___. So I have the luxury of voting for lower taxes, or not care about foreign policy, the environment, child welfare, poverty, racial equality, gender equality, etc. I say to them think about what the next wedge issue will be. First it was the blacks, now it is the gays. As a non-white immigrant I think I know the answer. Fear and hate are more powerful than tolerance and compassion, do we perhaps need to appropriate the fear message? Ask people -are they coming for you next?
Hear,hear, Philalethes.
I am truely amazed by the posts here. It seems like a majority of you just don't get it. you blame the media, "Gay-hating" , John Kerry and many other ideas, My favorite is the people hinting that the voting machines were rigged.
A clue for you all. Kerry lost because he had no message that he could push. He had a "plan" but never articulated it to the people.
You complain that the values issue is really bigotry in drag. Well you need to realize that while you may not agree with the values of those who elected President Bush, They have the same right to their values as you do. The Democratic Party is in serious trouble and you don't understand why. You whine that Howard Dean should have been the Dem choice...a clue for you...He would have blown up long before the election day. You need to look at what values the majority of the American people hold dear and try and work to those issues within your own party. The election was actually lost when the DNC platform became "Anyone But Bush" and just a side note...in 2008 pick a candidate that is likeable at least...all though in all likelyhood it will be Hillary for Prez in 2008 (Not a good choice by the way)
"Too bad you didn't have an opportunity to experience real fascism. " My mother grew up under it, and she says "deja vu."
Ah, "real America" where my parents' marriage was illegal until I was in 7th grade. Where people {still} ask me where I came from, and "Whidbey Island, Washington" is not the answer they're looking for. Get your stereotypes right: the red states didn't vote against LA (which I also despise) but San Francisco.
Atrios:
you said, "don't be fooled - people know what they voted for."
Actually they didn't. I agree that Republicans are a bunch of vicious lying dumbfucks, but many of them don't have the slightest fucking idea what is real and what isn't. Most of them are whacked out on a mix of brainless religious fundamentalism, money addiction, and severe status anxiety.
Remember the recent PIPA poll that showed that 70% of Bush voters have been so thoroughtly brainwashed that they still believe that Hussein had WMD and worked closely with bin Laden? These people are as helplessly brainwashed as the average resident of Moscow in the 70's -- maybe more so.
We need to become much more up front about our rational, secular beliefs -- and much more socially exclusive.
Don't hang out with your Repulican "friends" any more. Don't provide them social habitat within which they can pretend that they are cool. I warn all you younger blog readers: your so-called Republican "friends" will let you down when they get older and begin to focus completely on money and status.
Atrios:
you said, "don't be fooled - people know what they voted for."
Actually they didn't. I agree that Republicans are a bunch of vicious lying dumbfucks, but many of them don't have the slightest fucking idea what is real and what isn't. Most of them are whacked out on a mix of brainless religious fundamentalism, money addiction, and severe status anxiety.
Remember the recent PIPA poll that showed that 70% of Bush voters have been so thoroughtly brainwashed that they still believe that Hussein had WMD and worked closely with bin Laden? These people are as helplessly brainwashed as the average resident of Moscow in the 70's -- maybe more so.
We need to become much more up front about our rational, secular beliefs -- and much more socially exclusive.
Don't hang out with your Repulican "friends" any more. Don't provide them social habitat within which they can pretend that they are cool. I warn all you younger blog readers: your so-called Republican "friends" will let you down when they get older and begin to focus completely on money and status.
We also need to debunk the religious and emotional arguments against being liberal. HOW to do that is the question.
You can't.
They don't respond to arguments or logic.
Many sensible, very religious liberals (who would know best, I think, how to get through to them) tried every single argument they could think of: opposing war, providing health care, helping your fellow man, working for peace, being good people... All things that Christ is supposed to have supported.
None of it worked.
The people we're dealing with are not Christians by any sense of the word. They're Leviticultists, to put it bluntly. Old Testament god-botherers. To them, all that "love thy neighbor" stuff is just a bunch of limp-wristed sissy librul nonsense.
There is no logical argument that will get through to them. They respond only to hatred and fear, usually in that order.
Sadly, enough people in this country gave in to their fear that it allowed Rove and his minions to steal the election again. And enough people will sit by and let it happen, and they will keep doing it as long as they get away with it.
After Qusay W. Bush's reign ends in 2008, will we be led by Gov. Uday Bush?
no, no. This is Uday now. Qusay is the younger, smarter one.
Let's face it. The greedy god-loving cousing-humping redneck vote put Bush over the top.
Not a single one of us would trade places with a troll in order to have had a "win" today.
Everyone pay Phila, he's written the comment of the day.
You need to look at what values the majority of the American people hold dear and try and work to those issues within your own party.- Jim
Actually, most people have more moderate values than the current Republican party- in fact, they align very nicely with the Democrats. I think the biggest problem is articulating those values clearly and succinctly. Really, it is just a matter of successfully marketing them. The fact is that Republicans are better at setting the agenda and are very good at controlling how the discussion- what is to be discussed, what is considered important, and how the issues will be framed.
They're Leviticultists
And yet, they're not even that. For lo:
"You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart." - Leviticus 19:17
"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." - Leviticus 19:18
"The stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself." - Leviticus 19:34
Isn't it amazing how they know exactly which scriptural teachings to ignore completely?
kei & yuri
Thanks!
Any thug who put their name to this gay-ban stuff will be reviled in history, just like Jefferson Davis. Also the thuggie leadership should have stopped this divsive ballot measure instead of using it. they went to good schools and should know better. Enshrining this sort of discrimination is bad policy.
Deven,
I enjoyed your thoughtful post - and agree with your ideas of simple issue framing.
God - to be 23 again - glad to have you with us sweetheart.
You need to look at what values the majority of the American people hold dear and try and work to those issues within your own party.- Jim
try this one on for size - The Defensive Taxation Act. Further tax breaks cannot be passed unless they are paid by removing all tax emempt status from faith-based organizations, until the federal deficit is paid off.
Excellent posts, really cheered me up.
Thank you.
My thoughts:
1. facism: forcing people to sign ‘pledges’ to support a leader and refusing to admit anyone to that party’s rallies, senate and house conferences, etc, and simply lying to everyone (even themselves) is pretty far along the road to facism
2. message: Kerry had no ability (nor track record dammit!) to articulate a message. Democrats have a message: all people should be treated fairly, even if you don’t agree with them. There were so many opportunities to elucidate that message with current events, and Kerry just failed (miserably). (Afghanistan was a justifiable war – Iraq was not. Enron vs Walmart. Religious values include forgiveness, peace. Valuing life means caring for every child, not shooting abortionists. Etc, Etc, Etc) His failure was on par with Gore’s inability to capitalize on 8 years of peace and prosperity. These guys failed for reasons that were clear to anyone – they had very little political skill. I completely agree with an earlier writer – McAuliff MUST GO.
3. media: It is time to start addressing this problem: big media demands profitability, and news shows are being held to the same standards of ad sales and viewership as Blind Date and reality shows. Back in Walter Cronkite’s day, news shows were NEVER about entertainment. They were NEVER about money. They consistently LOST money. They were about public service. It is time to come up with some type of oversight agency that can evaluate and rate news shows. Freedom of the press is too important to trust to the free market.
4. tactics: Democrats need to designate a few talented individuals to fight the right with their own weapons. We need a few sharp-witted, likable, witty, and knowledgeable politicians to be regulars on the news shows on ALL channels, and they must be willing to use the ‘L’ word… ‘Lie’, as in, “It’s a shame, George/Tim/Tom/whoever, that I must once again, inform the American people that they have been lied to by George/Donald/Colin/Condoleeza”. They need to come from relatively safe districts, and they need to have the unconditional support of their fellow democrats to fundraise for them and support their commentary.
5. tailoring the message: Don’t. The platform should be based on the new deal, benevolent internationalism, individual rights and responsibilities, sacrifices by those few blessed with extreme good fortune for the good of the many less fortunate, open government, the constitution and the declaration of independence. Let’s unapologetically stand up for what we believe in and lead. I think the right wingers are bullies. Nothing attracts bullies more than wavering, capitulating, qualifying, etc…
6. ‘understanding’ the opposition: the vast majority of people are not red or blue, saints or bigots, They are human, which means: they respond to effective advertising, they are caught up in their own lives, they want to do the right thing
Pondering our stinging defeat it occured to me that much of what is happening is that we are talking past each other - liberals and conservatives. In part because of a deep fog that has been laid between us.
For the past few months there has been no shortage of actual and documented outrages, blunders, incompetance and negligence from the Bush administration. And we have howled about it and pointed to it. Last night we were all amazed to see that all our assertions and proofs made NO difference.
The right uses issues like "gay marriage" as wedge issues... designed to seperate, isolate and polarize. WE respond to the literal meaning of what they are saying-- We say, "We should encourage two loving people, that want to have a public commitment. How could that threaten marriage?" Or, "I know many gay people, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, this is ignorant/religious/bigotry..."
Liberals attack at the appearance... the literal meaning of the issue.
But the Right (the leadeship... especially their comunications masters) are positing metaphors. The gay marriage issue when viewed as metaphor, I suggest, isn't about homophobia or bigotry or rights. It is about the deep and abiding discomfort and fear that families are feeling. Marriage has been a principle path of companionship, commitment, and security for generations -- and it's crumbling around us. Our children are suffering from it, we are suffering from it, economically even two people working in the closest partnership (marriage) can barely make it. The pressure to consume, to move up is stressing marriages as never before. Every person who is married finds out that the institution is not what it once was, or what we thought it was. The nuclear and extended family we need and want has evaporated from our lives. We know deep down we're not going to get it back, no matter how many Norman Rockwell ideas we conjur in our imaginations. Most people I think understand this in their gut and can't or won't talk about it--too painful, hopeless and scary.
Gay marriage as a threat is simply a metaphor... it recalls the deep trouble and unease we feel.
When the Right talks about this issue, and we then rail against their homophobia, stupidity, fear,-- the leadersship smiles and says "keep it coming". Every literal attack we make REINFORCES the metaphor of family under unbearable stress. And that the left don't see it or recognize it. How could they... they believe in killing babies for convenience. (another metaphor perhaps?)
Rather than our literal attack, we might respond in kind-- metaphorically. Let's call for defense of marriage laws that give families real opportunities, help, solutions, that ACTUALLY deal with the pressures. Let's call for a right to marry. Stay in the metaphor rather than literal.
Doing this would take a lot of LISTENING to the other side, an examination of our assumptions (why are we so sure we're right?). And it will take practice at
sorry....
Doing this would take a lot of LISTENING to the other side, an examination of our assumptions (why are we so sure we're right?). And it will take practice at seeing the world through these other eyes so that we can actually approach the issues on the basis that 51% of the elecorate is approaching it from. AGAIN, this is a communications strategy in play by the Right, it has nothing to do with truth or facts.
continued....
6. ‘understanding’ the opposition: the vast majority of people are not red or blue, saints or bigots, They are human, which means: they respond to effective advertising, they are caught up in their own lives, they want to do the right thing and think of themselves as good people, they want their world (not the whole world, but their world) to be safe and understandable. They are not worldly (ie educated in history, philosophy, economics, religious thought), but they are intelligent enough to want to make all the pieces of their lives ‘fit’. They respond to peer pressure, they respond to religious explanations of frightening and complex issues, they want to fight and they want to love. We need someone who understands human beings, not ‘reds’, and knows how to talk to them, to convey OUR message in terms that make sense to them, and appeal to them.
It is not going to be a quick turnaround. And (this is directed at myself) it is absolutely essential that we get involved in local and national and international movements. Get your hands dirty in a really red church that needs to meet some gays/liberals/whatevers. Write letters, give money, develop your opinions, learn about the issues, disagree/agree with Ted Kennedy/Tom Delay when it makes sense. And SPEAK UP. Wear buttons, bumper stickers, lawn signs. Don't fail to be true to yourself and push for more peace, tolerance, prosperity, and fairness for ALL.
Have a great night....
The people we're dealing with are not Christians by any sense of the word. They're Leviticultists, to put it bluntly. Old Testament god-botherers. To them, all that "love thy neighbor" stuff is just a bunch of limp-wristed sissy librul nonsense.
you know, I keep hearing that.
but advocacy of gay rights and full gay personhood is a minority position in every single Christian denomination I know of.
You would claim that real Christianity is loving one's neighbor; but there is not a single Christian denomination active in the United States, the richest nation on the planet, that seriously exhorts its members to compliance with Matthew 19:16-21.
admit it, "Leviticultist" is a label you just made up so that you could arrogate "Christian" to yourself.
I'm not trying to jump on your case here. I'm just pointing out that the people you're criticizing are the spiritual and intellectual heirs of the people the entire corpus of Christian theology was invented to justify and defend.
Personally, I find "Christian" much more useful as a description of that theology than as a measurement of moral rectitude.
Next up: Winning the filibuster debate. It's coming. Be ready.
When the GOP and the media start to make obstructionist claims, whether it's for the resurrected energy bill or the Rehnquist replacement, we must stand our ground and not back down. Get ready to write and donate to Senators and communicate our msg to our voters around "the filter" in any way possible.
Here's our argument: 51% does not equal a mandate. The remaining 48% are entitled to a voice in gov't, and the Senate filibuster is exactly the place for that voice.
Bush won't work with us willingly. But we have one last governmental lever to pull. And we should. Early and often.
Plus it'll make the wingers apopleptic, and that's always fun.
What we need is a response to the Contract for America - a Ten Commandments of progressivism.
Leviticus is so fucked up...in addition to concepts like the ones above, which I choke up just reading about (today, especially), it's got some of the most brutal and ugly stuff in ANY religion, as well as utterly baffling and non-pertinent advice like "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."
When you read that one chapter, it becomes less mysterious that the average Bushbot can hold multiple contradictory beliefs at once.
It's a funny thing, but what terrifies me most today, is that Congress will enact Patriot 11 and blogs like Eschaton will be banned as subversive. Think of how alone we would all feel then.
In the former USSR, information was passed from person to person by making typed copies with carbon paper. Unless they shut down the entire internet, we can emulate that much more effectively here and now if it does become necessary.
Bob, stop spamming.
And yet, they're not even that. For lo:
"You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart." - Leviticus 19:17
...
You have a point.
I'm not sure what to call them then. Jeebofascists seems too... easy.
Leviticus is so fucked up...in addition to concepts like the ones above, which I choke up just reading about (today, especially), it's got some of the most brutal and ugly stuff in ANY religion, as well as utterly baffling and non-pertinent advice like "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."
Leviticus is the moral, legal, and public health code of a culture that has been extinct for millenia, just as Genesis is that culture's creation myth.
Neither of them should be treated as any more than museological curiosities.
You would claim that real Christianity is loving one's neighbor; but there is not a single Christian denomination active in the United States, the richest nation on the planet, that seriously exhorts its members to compliance with Matthew 19:16-21.
I'd say the Quakers do. And a couple of other small groups. And I'd also say that in many cases, it's not so much what the denomination teaches, as what the pastor (or whomever) teaches. A lot of Christians aren't denominationalists anyway...they're more antinomians, if anything. Especially these days. If those people want to try to reclaim the faith, I'm game to let 'em try. I think they're a bit like the Left, though...scattered out and kind of disorganized. But I'm no expert...I just know a few people in that boat, and that's what they've told me. I do think that if good-hearted Christians want any respect at all, they better start putting up a real fight against the fundies immediately. I'm not holding my breath, though.
It's not about the money. It has NEVER been about the fucking money.
sorry friends,
I wasn't a troll, just a really PO'd, crass individual. Hard to be constructive today, felt a need to vent, and stuck my foot in my mouth. This isn't the place for such actions. You'll see no more from me. Hope for the future.
"Kerry had no ability (nor track record dammit!) to articulate a message....Kerry just failed (miserably)."
Bingo! This "nuanced" nonsense was pushed on us last December - I remember it well. The Kerry supporters were absolutely convinced that they had the best candidate because he was so complex and intelligent. They could not have been more wrong. Kerry was so out of touch with the public that he actually had to learn not to talk like he was on the senate floor. Not a good start, and he never completely overcame this.
We Dems have been sadly misled by our leaders in DC for three elections in a row now. When are we going to learn? Remember Al Gore and his refusal to use Cliton to campaign for him, and his bizarre debate performance. Bad tactics. Likewise in 2002 with many of the midterm races - lots of losses, and most importantly, many races that we did not even contest.
The Dems need new leadership! I suggest we look to Russ Feingold - Joe Biden - Howard Dean. Why? These folks no how to deliver the message. It's all about the message.
Well, this thread has convinced me that we are now in a battle between the rational and the irrational. I don't know how we counter the power of the church, since so many religious people seem to confuse "belief "with "truth."
And I've noticed that Hanna, today's Honorary Troll, hasn't answered one single question addressed to her or posed one positive idea. All she does is waste our time with condescending gloating.
Hanna, do you cherish your right to vote? Who the hell do you think worked so hard for women to gain that right, which we didn't have until 1920? Social conservatives? Please.
The Democratic party was the party of true progressive thinking until the late 1960's, until Vietnam divided us. Did you know that until the 1960's most people in this country didn't think that blacks and whites should intermarry? It was liberals on the coasts who fought for civil rights, who went down South to support the cause, and in some cases who died for it.
One other thing: you might want to consider that New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut were the three states which were directly affected by 9/11. We are the ones who lost loved ones and colleagues, who suffered the destruction of our majestic landmarks, who had to breathe the filthy air that Bush's EPA told us was safe, and who will probably be the target if we get hit again. WE ALL VOTED FOR KERRY. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU???
All I hear coming out of your beloved "heartland" is intolerance, complacency, and small-mindedness.
Neither of them should be treated as any more than museological curiosities.
theodoric
Well, I think "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, nor rob him," has a certain validity today. But you have a good point...much of Leviticus is literally meaningless in our culture, and other parts would be impossible to follow even if one had a mind to do it. Granted that you can't really expect religion to be internally consistent, I think the contradictions work nicely as a rorschach test...the parts that you respond to most give people a good idea of your personality. As far as I can tell, most of the religious folks in America could replace the Bible with a sticker that says "God hates fags," and be none the worse for it.
The people who voted George Bush and the Republicans into office ... did so precisely because he is a right wing asshole.
Atrios, you understand the core of the Republican party perfectly, here, but you're completely off base about the rank and file voter.
Bullmoose: "Organization is fine - ideas and message are far superior."
Atrios: "This is exactly right."
No it isn't. They are not mutually exclusive. Organization with bad ideas will always trump lack of organization with good ideas. The election proved this. And how. The Greens can no longer afford to be separate from supporters of social programs who can no longer afford to isolate themselves from supporters of single system health care who can no longer isolate themselves from supporters of ... (Fill in the progressive cause.) They must work in unison, finding common ground and organize under a new paradigm for presenting the progressive case as in the best interests of all people, as we know it is.
Ind4ke --
I don't know what to do about it. The impending theocratic fascism and the deceptive neocons who are driving it are the threat, for sure.
Do you know the Gene Sharp & Robert Helvey material? I've just started in reading "The Anti-Coup" and "From Dictatorship to Democracy" which can be downloaded for free at the site I referenced in my previous post. I need to get my mitts on the 3-volume handbook, called "The Politics of Nonviolent Action" because those three books get into the nitty gritty details of strategy, tactics, and how to assess the weaknesses of the totalitarian state. Are you aware of which activist groups are thinking this way?
I second the suggestion from a previous post -- Mr. Kate and I both joined the ACLU this summer. We joined both because we desperately need this organization and want it to be strong, and also because they thumbed their nose at Ashcroft and refused to take the half-million dollar government subsidy they normally get -- because the gov't wanted their membership lists in exchange for the subsidy. They said, "uh...no. We don't think so."
I'm not sure of the protocol for posting here (I'm fairly new to reading/interacting with blogs), but this has been a great resource and wonderful community for me these last few months.
Nonetheless, the point about having a point struck home with me. Since 1994 the Dems have done little but run as "not Republicans" and it clearly isn't working. We really should start embracing ideas and movements that touch on our core values (which I see as compassion, pluralism, and sound fiscal policy) and push the hell out of them. I see a space opening for us in the deep mistrust of the election system (even though this election was cleaner than the last, there's clearly something wrong).
On this front, we should push constitutional amendments of our own. Sure they won't pass, but they may hit a nerve with the electorate: 1) Abolish the Electoral College. How could this election even be in question when Bush clearly got more votes (as Gore did in 2000)? Also, not having lived in a battleground state for the last two elections, I barely noticed that an election was going on. I live in a fairly sizable state, you’d think someone would care about us. 2) Expand the number of representatives in the House to at least 1000 members. It bothers me to no end that each House member represents over 600,000 people each, and "small" states like Montana, the Dakotas, Wyoming, and Alaska only get one person to represent the whole state. The current system basically ignores sizable populations and minorities (political if not ethnic/racial) in each. 3) Give the District of Columbia full representation in Congress. Having spent a few years their for grad school, this is one injustice most Americans should really be offended by. 4) Get rid of term limits on the Presidency. This may not be too popular with the left now, but it may win over some converts or at least open up some minds (on the right) to our other ideas.
Right now, I just don't see us winning the "culture wars" in the current structure. At least if we restructured the debate a little (around better/fuller democracy so that all voices are heard/represented), we wouldn't always necessarily be fighting an uphill battle.
Bullmoose: "Organization is fine - ideas and message are far superior."
Atrios: "This is exactly right."
No it isn't. They are not mutually exclusive. Organization with bad ideas will always trump lack of organization with good ideas. The election proved this. And how. The Greens can no longer afford to be separate from supporters of social programs who can no longer afford to isolate themselves from supporters of single system health care who can no longer isolate themselves from supporters of ... (Fill in the progressive cause.) They must work in unison, finding common ground and organize under a new paradigm for presenting the progressive case as in the best interests of all people, as we know it is.
Bullmoose: "Organization is fine - ideas and message are far superior."
Atrios: "This is exactly right."
No it isn't. They are not mutually exclusive. Organization with bad ideas will always trump lack of organization with good ideas. The election proved this. And how. The Greens can no longer afford to be separate from supporters of social programs who can no longer afford to isolate themselves from supporters of single system health care who can no longer isolate themselves from supporters of ... (Fill in the progressive cause.) They must work in unison, finding common ground and organize under a new paradigm for presenting the progressive case as in the best interests of all people, as we know it is.
Eschaton "consists of nasty bigots and liars and the media rarely bothers to point out just how nasty they are"
Sounds like atrios is describing himself and his moonbat brigarde here at his fishwrapper.
Bullmoose: "Organization is fine - ideas and message are far superior."
Atrios: "This is exactly right."
No it isn't. They are not mutually exclusive. Organization with bad ideas will always trump lack of organization with good ideas. The election proved this. And how. The Greens can no longer afford to be separate from supporters of social programs who can no longer afford to isolate themselves from supporters of single system health care who can no longer isolate themselves from supporters of ... (Fill in the progressive cause.) They must work in unison, finding common ground and organize under a new paradigm for presenting the progressive case as in the best interests of all people, as we know it is.
But I'm no expert...I just know a few people in that boat, and that's what they've told me.
about ten years ago I went through a six-month-long breakdown that I entered as a devout, married, Anglo-Catholic, Republican-voting Episcopalian and left as a divorcee so far to the left of Bishop Spong that there was no longer any point in staying in the church.
Mainstream Protestantism is being propped up at this point by the willful ignorance of millions of laity who don't want to hear, much less believe, what their clergy were taught in seminary. (The clergy, like Tenet's CIA, slowly learn what is expected of them and how to comply.) Many more stay in the church not because they believe but because of the church's role as a repository of American culture.
It is largely this capacity for willful ignorance, this clinging to theofeudalism, that differentiates us from the Europeans and the rest of the Western world.
Soon Americans will want peace and prosperity and they will understand that they absolutely don't have it as they watch the body bags come home. They don't get that right now because they haven't reached their limits on killing.
Oh, no, Americans are fine with killing. They don't give a shit how many little brown foreigners end up screaming, crippled or dead.
It's dying they're not too happy about. You know, Americans are real people...
I want to correct one statement I made at 7:20; it wasn't liberals from the coasts who went down South to work for civil rights. It was liberals from all over the country.
Which brings this up: some of the red states are very red, but others aren't. I don't hold out much hope for Oklahoma, but there are bound to be other states that already have large populations of tolerant, thinking, informed people. How do we work with liberals and progressives in the "pink" states to make those states blue?
fubarsnafu;
I think that's it exactly. Words of one syllable. God. Mom. Ap ple pie.
Cindy (7:03 PM)
Excellent post.
When will this administration start to unravel? Will the Plame outing investigation do it? It seems destined to four years of non-stop scandals and leaks by ethical people still serving in government. After four years of totally abdicating their responsibility, the media has some atoning to do to the public by actually reporting on the endless scandals they avoided in the first term.
Soon Americans will want peace and prosperity and they will understand that they absolutely don't have it as they watch the body bags come home. They don't get that right now because they haven't reached their limits on killing.
Oh, no, Americans are fine with killing. They don't give a shit how many little brown foreigners end up screaming, crippled or dead.
It's dying they're not too happy about. You know, Americans are real people...
the rethugs are just sitting out the
noise level until everybody goes about their business nothing too see here...
it is not the time too lick wounds and suffer...we are at least fifty percent of the electorate and we demand to be heard..where i live a very tough lady named Barbara Lee Speaks fof me...it is not business as usual...real investigations into halliburton cheney criminal bidless give away...there's plenty of work to get to and the focus of millions of people with something to learn and something to offer...it's far from over for ms. Plame and others
used by this crew of thugs and pious
thieves...
After four years of totally abdicating their responsibility, the media has some atoning to do to the public by actually reporting on the endless scandals they avoided in the first term.
Vinnie
And we need to remind them of that responsibility...
What will be done about the media?
You can have a great message but if no one hears it, how good is it?
NOT TOO GOOD. 
You're all on the WRONG side of history. AGAIN!!!
I'm just waiting for the fights over the "moral" issues. We'll see some really eye-opening stuff. If the Democrats in the house and senate are smart they'll make a show of going along. The Republicans will freak if they think this junk might pass. That's the last thing they want to have to deal with. They're hoping the Nazis they put on the court will do it for them.
The asshole above obviously doesn't know Wal-Mart workers. I worked in the store next to one. Passion pit doesn't begin to say it. The poor people have to do something free to entertain themselves. They can't even afford to go to the movies.
http://filmstripinternational.com/
Enjoy!
The poor trolls, or rather their deluded employers. Apparently they think they can finish us off in our demoralized state. Well, guess what, schumcks. We're not going away. We won half the vote that got cast and counted, we would have won more if the Republican Ratfucking of the election hadn't worked. And your margin of victory is entirely dependent on a constituency which cares passionately about issues that will loose elections for you.
And your boy-king really believes he is god now.
Opportunity for liberal progress grow out of this election.
You're talking about a Goldwater thing.
After a few years, those turn into Nixon things, then Reagan things, then Gingrich things.
I can live with that.
We need a name for "them" first... I would like to suggest: "Evangelical Imperialists".
This voting bloc of 1) sun belt evangelicals, 2) grain belt producers, 3) rust belt financiers, and 4) neoconservative government policy-makers represents a pretty coherent body of political thought and government policy.
The industrial farm states (grain belt) have always benefited from the imperial interventionists (neoconservatives) who define America's role in the world as a millennial or preternatural - divine - world power (evangelicals) that results in the subordination of other peoples as neo-colonial subjects who produce extraordinary profits for investment capital (international financiers).
This is the modern Republican voting bloc. It is a voting bloc that the Republican party has not been able to fully organize for nearly 75 years, after the Depresseion-era collapse of the Progressive-era voting bloc centered around 1) post-Populist farming cooperatives, 2) corporate state liberalism, 3) scientific racism, and 4) American trust banking.
The Evangelicals are the core of this group because they vote to shape the nation in the image of their international godhead: the moral state. Economic issues are not the core of their political decision-making, but rather the anti-privacy righteousness that the media has mislabeled as "moral values."
Nevertheless, the Evangelicals believe categorically that America has a "mission" in the world, and thus ally themselves with the military-industrial political economy that pursues policies of international interventions: state imperialism. An economic bloc of international investment seekers, neoconservative foreign policy experts and military leaders, and middle-American grain producers and exporters.
All four of these groups support and thrive in the "reality" the Republican voting bloc has created: The New World Order of Evangelical Imperialism.
I'm increasingly getting the sense that part of the problem is that at the moment it isn't clear just what this infrastructure is supposed to be supporting. We need to figure out just what our ideas and message are, and then the infrastructure will help us project them into the public mind.
Yes. A thousand times, yes.
We need to pick a handful of issues that are fundamental to what it means to be a Democrat, and fight for them, partywide, every year. Then people will believe we mean what we say.
I'm talking about issues like raising the minimum wage; expanding access to health care; reducing the deficit; making sure Social Security is on a sound footing; protecting workers from reprisals when they try to organize unions; securing our ports, air cargo, and chemical plants against terrorists; hunting down Osama bin Laden; that sort of thing.
For the right wing ones I like thumpers best. Some evangelicans are rather liberal and good, some are raging fascists. Interesting how they're using the word evangelical the past two weeks. You think Rove might have sent out an order to the media? Fundamentalist was too scary. Remarkably like "faith based". Nice how they can even control the language in our "free country". Our media are a bunch of tools.
Howard Dean and only Howard Dean knows enough to articulate the human rights spin on gay and lesbian rights.
Kerry failed miserably.
Having read much of the comentary above, here is the solution to your problems:
Outbreed them! It will take several generations though.
Just continue to screw & raise more well educated Yuppies!
The only problem is:
You can't support that many Yuppies without many times their number of both Middle Class & Hard Hat types.
But the extra screwing might be worth it anyway.
Perhaps many of you should just try Mutual Masterbation & not further screw up the gene pool!
*
There really is a silver lining to what happened Tuesday. (Honest!)
Across the nation, even in "red states" like Colorado and Montana, Democrats regained control at the local levels, even as Bush eked out a narrow win nationally over Kerry. Colorado now has a Democratic state lege, the first in over forty years. And in Minnesota, the House Republicans went from 83 seats, which gave them a twenty-eight-seat cushion, to 68 -- only two seats more than the Democratic "minority". And since Democrats control the Minnesota Senate, that essentially pits a Democratic lege against a Republican governor who is looking less and less powerful.
So what happened? I have a couple of guesses, at least where Minnesota is concerned.
1) The local Catholic and Baptist preachers, obeying orders from their Republican bishops, convinced their flocks that John Kerry was the AntiChrist -- at least one Southern Baptist church in the Twin Cities has been saying this ever since Kerry won the primaries, as a Southern Baptist co-worker of one of my loved ones boasted today -- but they were not quite as successful in extending that demonization blanket to all Democrats. It's one thing to demonize someone from another state. It's even fairly easy to demonize a legislator from your own state. But it's quite another to demonize the guy who lives down the road from you. It can be done, but it takes a bit more effort.
Another guess -- and this may strike nearer the heart of the matter -- is that the single-issue voters the churches tried to rile up really only did care about making sure that Bush got elected, or maybe vote for whichever piece of hate legislation their church was pushing. When it came to the rest of the races, they couldn't have cared less.
There's a reason why these people are called "single-issue" voters: They don't care about anything but their pet issue. In fact, while at our polling place, my spouse and I overheard one person flatly refusing to mark the rest of the ballot past the presidential spot! They certainly don't read newspapers -- even Bush-endorsing ones -- so they don't see the full GOP endorsement slates as laid out by their local Republican groups. Meanwhile, the Democratic voters read the StarTribune, the biggest and most liberal daily in Minnesota, and heed its selections, which are usually strongly Democratic.
So while the Republicans could count on certain churchly allies to do extensive -- and illegal -- shilling for Bush, they can't count on them for much of anything else. (A local longtime Republican activist acquaintance of mine found out years ago that these people are supremely uninterested in the mechanics of party-building.) And while they could count on the national media to carry their water, they couldn't control events at the local level.
You can't support that many Yuppies without many times their number of both Middle Class & Hard Hat types.
Funny, every yuppie I've ever head of was a Republican.
I thought we were commies, or euro-trash simps. When did we become yuppies?
John Kerry was the AntiChrist -- at least one Southern Baptist church in the Twin Cities has been saying this ever since Kerry won the primaries, as a Southern Baptist co-worker of one of my loved ones boasted today
That's actually illegal, and the church can lose its tax-exempt status.
You can't support that many Yuppies without many times their number of both Middle Class & Hard Hat types.
And what kinds of flora exist in your pretty little world, Trollina?
Yuppies are Republicans, idiot. Democrats are middle class and "hard hat types" (wtf is a "hard hat type"? this little college twit has been watching too much TV). The Republican mutant parallels of these stereotypes are suburban white flighters and rednecks. Geez at least get your pop culture icons right you fool.
A message from Britain:
http://lovejunky.diaryland.com/
d...earamerica.html
Then what do you call Jim Wallis, joewweoj? He's an evangelical and he's long put economic and peace issues first.
Hello All,
Thanks to you all for the good words and thoughts through the mess we’re currently in. I wanted to post some ideas just cause I want to start thinking them through and, heck I’ll inflict them on you too:
1. I think progressives might have lost the poor when we stopped making their lives better. Really, since RFK has any of the Democratic leaders had ideals that pushed America to make this a better place? 8 years of Clinton, the rich got richer the poor stopped sliding. We felt their pain (in an abstract, pain free sense, of course). If we can’t do better than that as Democrats, I’m not surprised that folks can’t be bothered to turn out for us.
2. I went into this election madder than hell at the religious right and wanting to beat them. As I reflect the day after, many of the people (relatives) who taught me about right and wrong are now Bush’s most ardent supporters. I love them dearly and now I need to think about how people who truly do care and love others, and try to live a Christian life, believe with all their might that their bibles are in danger and that Evil is attacking America in the form of Gays, Hollywood and the Government. Underneath the paranoia are some basic beliefs (framing) that we must understand. If, as I believe, my Aunts are acting out of love, I need to understand how one follows the other if I have a hope of reaching out to them and finding some common ground.
3. Evolution? Creationism? I’d gladly work with someone who believes in either if they also recognized that patriotism didn’t mean that you had to breath more mercury, that we have a moral duty to our children not to shackle them with our debts, and that we will keep Africa starving so long as our farm subsidies price their farmers out of the market. The bible speaks to social justice we need to do more than quote the parts we like, we need to have programs that practice the ideals. I am an atheist, but I’ll take the best parts of humanity where i can find them.
Thanks for place for my screed and for the opportunity to hear my progressive friends.
BTW, after Goldwater, when conservatism was on the ropes, Phyllis Shafly kept them together and focused when the movement could have fallen apart. If they can take it, so can we. On the bright side, maybe GWBs second term will follow LBJ’s.
Dave
I honestly don't think that us Democrats need to gnash our teeth too much about our identity, yaa, yada. We are dealing with a nasty demogogue, much as there have been nasty - and effective - demogogus throughout history who belonged to all kinds of political parties. What we need is not a way of communicating the Democratic ideals more effectively to "the people" but rather in strategies for kicking the legs out from under a demogogue. The dirty tricks need to be neutralized, the wool needs to be taken from people's eyes.
I also think it is HIGH TIME for the Religious Left in this country to get organized and take control of the dialog from the "religious" right. As a Christian, I am totally appalled at how people who practice absolutely *nothing* of what Jesus taught are claiming religion for their own.
Leviticus contains "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself," which Jesus said was second only to the commandment to love God with one's whole being. It's right there in the Holiness Code.
A data point I am sorry to report -- and which I suppressed for partisan reasons before now. I live in New York City. My wife is a professor at a major university. Her students were uniformly uninterested in the election. Some were even pro-Bush. "Because he is fighting the war on terror." They parrot the media b.s. They grew up in red states and come to blue states for fun and education. So there is hope for them yet. They are mostly freshmen. Anyway. Before the election, she asked them what they thought of the draft. Didn't enter their heads. They support the Iraq war. They said explicitly they don't want to go over there. They don't see any moral issue in that. They shrug. So today she asks them, so, are they glad Bush won? Please remember this is a university in Greenwhich Village, New York City, the center of blue America. These kids say, well, we support the war. What about the WMD's?
They say, oh, they'll find the WMD's. They just haven't found them yet.
My wife is speechless.
I tell her, eh, they're college students, they're probably just pulling your aging liberal leg.
I hope.
"Yes, the modern Republican party consists of nasty bigots and liars and the media rarely bothers to point out just how nasty they are (all the talking heads talking about the role of "moral values" in the election know that what that really means is "fag hating," but they won't say it). But, don't be fooled - people know what they voted for."
We don't hate them.Ilove my mother and could care less what my she does behind close doors with the women she has retired with. You people just don't get it . Most of us could care less what goes on in any couples bedrooms. Do you want to hear about all of the really nasty stuff my wife and I do in ours? I didn't think so. So how about you keep your unatural acts to yourself and I'll keep mine to myself, live and let live. Go ahead and hold hands in public but please keep the leather boys out of sight of my children, O.K.
nyt reader,
These kids can find plenty of news outlets telling them "They just haven't found them [WMDs] yet."
Even PBS will play that line when it is spoken by some 70-year old war veteran.
Praise the Lord, and Pass the Ammunition
Sodomites just can’t resist a good musical. Any Whore of Babylon knows that. And so, I begin with a refrain from Broadway Giant Frank Loesser. Back when Americans had real allies, fighting a real Axis of Evil, Frank went to his piano. He cranked out a ditty that served as the rallying cry of World War Two. “Praise the Lord, and Pass the Ammunition.”
It is no longer gathering dust in the key of C. It is once again a call to arms.
I am a proud and openly gay man living in the very heart of “Red America.” It ain’t Pearl Harbor, but make no mistake, the war has begun. In this first attack, freedom was walloped. November 2nd, 2004. A day which will live in infamy.
For those living on either coast, it may be hard to fully understand just how galvanized the Radical Evangelicals have become. Odds are, the more “urban” among you don’t know any Christian extremists. I live in Kentucky, and to turn a familiar phrase, “Some of my best friends are Religious Radicals.” They are not the wild-eyed snake handlers of parody. Many are even tempered, most are outwardly “compassionate.” All are absolute in their determination to create theocracy.
I’ll leave the scholarship to theologians. I can only tell you, that after countless discussions with Evangelicals, there is no reasoning or compromise. They possess an absolute and blind faith in a literal interpretation of the Bible. In itself, this is no more insane or absurd than the worship of belts and shoes. But the central difference is the critical one: Evangelicals I know believe it is their duty to mandate that each of God’s Children comply with their concept of righteousness. I’d refer you to the Spanish Inquisition, but I’m no Theologian.
George Bush has empowered and emboldened this radical movement as never before. Of the eleven states with anti-gay ballot initiatives, the final tally was 11 to 0. In my state, 75 percent of the vote went to a constitutional ban. The Evangelical churches bought commercial time, canvassed neighborhoods, and offered voting guides from the pulpit. The army of “Christian” soldiers was overwhelming. Their crosshairs are now squarely on abortion, first amendment protections, and civil liberties. They have seduced some in the Catholic Church to join in this unholy marriage of politics and religion. Just ask John Kerry about communion. The web blogger Atrios aptly concludes “The people who voted George Bush and the Republicans into office this year didn't do so because they were conned by a right wing asshole posing as a compassionate centrist. They did so precisely because he is a right wing asshole.”
Still, Ben Affleck didn’t give up at Pearl Harbor, and neither will we. I refuse to be demonized and subjugated without a good fight. Gays and Lesbians (like Mary Cheney, daughter of Vice President Dick Cheney) aren’t the only casualties. Ultimately, they
Ultimately, they are the “Poland” of this war…a gateway to greater things. If all those Red States in the Bush column tell you anything, it’s that Republicans have leveraged the “Values Issue,” to a much larger consequence.
Each of us must join now in a renewed effort to defend religious freedom and tolerance. “Morality” and “spirituality” have been kidnapped by the Evangelicals, and they have bastardized the meaning. If there is any hope of a progressive movement in the country, we can no longer cede the issue of God to the radicals. Nor can we allow their definition of righteousness to carry the day.
We believe in a creator that values love above all. We believe in a God of compassion, understanding, and tolerance. We believe you are free to worship as you choose, or to not worship at all. Either way, you are still God’s Child and you are loved unconditionally. We believe that advocating for the rich and ignoring the impoverished is a sin. We believe all the sick should be healed, with access to the medicines that bring them to health. We believe in a vibrant and unspoiled planet, with a deep and spiritual respect for all of God’s natural creation. We believe you are free to find your own path to enlightenment, as long as you infringe upon the freedom of no others along the way. We believe that no pastor or congregation has a monopoly on God or his wisdom. And, above all, we believe in the American Dream of Freedom and Justice for all. Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition.
We need to figure out just what our ideas and message are, and then the infrastructure will help us project them into the public mind.
A moratorium on referring to middle Americans as "nasty bigots, liars and fag haters" might be a good place to start. Actually, the best thing you could do to help get more Democrats into power is to shut down this website. Without folks like you around to remind them, people would be more likely to accept the marketer’s crafted images, and forget what the “progressive” core of the Democratic Party is really like. Bush is incompetent and should have been beaten. But Kerry didn’t distance himself far enough from the Atrios wing of the Party.
"We need to figure out just what our ideas and message are, and then the infrastructure will help us project them into the public mind."
SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!
We're talking about 'just what our ideas and messages are' NOW? No wonder we lost the fucking election.
Damn.
Is it REALLY that hard to say "we're Democrats and we're for individual civil rights and freedoms -- and YES that includes allowing to homosexuals to marry" -- ? Or are we just going to continue to dance around our beliefs, waving our hands and saying "what that guy on the other podium said, only a little nicer"?
We need to state our beliefs clearly and without concern for moderate appearances, and if there's internal dissent, work it out within the party. You think every Republican is Fundamentalist? THere's a HUGE gulf between the social libertarians and the Evangelicals, yet somehow they compromise internally to produce a clear message. We can do the same, and we should have a much easier time of it, yet we insist on pandering to what we believe the mythical average voter wants instead of selling our explicit beliefs.
We've had this one coming, like it or not.
"Democrats and liberals have spent too many years running away from the Right's caricature of what it means to be a liberal that they've managed to obliterate from the public consciousness any coherent concrete narrative."
So true, but there's more to consider. Democrats have for years needed to spend a lot more time meeting people and explaining to them what Democrats believe and why, and how and why those beliefs should be their (the listeners') beliefs. Talk about philosophical basics, in other words.
But — and this is crucial — the need is for Democrats to do a lot of this explaining about basics when they are are not seeking money or votes, even when the next election is way off in the future. It's called laying the goundwork, opening lines of communication, winning hearts and minds, planting the seeds of ideas and attitudes, and such.
That kind of thing may occur, but from what I can tell it's the rare exception, not the rule. The unhelpful result is that too many people see Democrats as no better than a relative who only comes around when he/she needs to borrow money or wants some other favor, and only stays long enough to get the money or favor. That's not a good impression to make, obviously.
Republicans have managed to define themselves and their kind very effectively in the public mind, albeit not with impressive honesty. Worse for Democrats, Republicans have been obsessive-compulsive about pre-emptively defining — demonizing — Democrats, especially liberal ones, usually with mean-spirited dishonesty.
To help Republicans with this, their big-money backers have financed a major growth industry: the right-wing propaganda industry, which has dominated talk radio for 20 years and is a growing force in TV, plus lots of print media.
Of course, Democrats need to get together on a relatively concise set of principles and goals to present as their basics in these talks. But then, even two years before the next election and with many of them numb from the just-finished one, they need to get out and start talking.
----> "Of course being the party of abortion, homosexuality, welfare, socialism, and eco-nuts isn't really helping you either. You guys could help yourselves so much if you would just cut loose the left wing fringe from your party (let the Greens have them) and actually move to the center."
1. You make an excellent observation - the Democrat (not Democratic) party of 2004 is not the Democrat party of Truman, Johnson and Kennedy (not Ted - the conservative senator from Massachusetts).
In short, the feminazis (not the women), the union bosses (not the hard working blue collar workers), the black racists and Anti-semites like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, the enviro-kooks (who think an obscure fish is more important than economic progress), the homicidal abortion crowd that cheers partial birth murder (who would never utter the word adoption or welcome precious life to the world, or else hell will break lose), the atheists who can't stomach ever mentioning God (well, there is a special place in hell for them, but that is another topic; in addition, despite claiming intellectual superiority, they will flunk Pascal's test (not to be confused with Kerry's global test), the homosexual lobby (Bible clearly and unequivocally states that homosexuality is an abomination, but in their Orwellian world Bible will be banned as a hate speech/literature), and the gun control idiots (who for example can't have women carry concealed weapons to protect themselves from thugs and hooligans), the government school teachers (35% of them send their kids to private schools. Do they know something we don't),the sue happy plaintiff's bar and Michael Moore's of Hollywood who with their actions and deeds detest, disrepesct and denigrate our man and women in the uniform fighting and dying in Iraq so the scumbags like Moore can live in a society where they make movies (so called documentaries) - highjacked the Democrat party of Truman and Kennedy.
2. You assume that the Democrats can cut the aforementioned gang and let the Greens have them. Your assumption is based on the thesis that the regular Democrats are not the party hacks and activists will retake their party through political activism. It will never happen.
So instead of retaking their party, they moved to the center and let the leftist wackos own the Democrat party.
Truman, Johnson and Kennedy would not recognize their party. That's why Zen Miller (U.S. Senator), Dennis Prager (radio personality and thinker), Bill Bennett and millions of others voted for Bush.
They did not leave their party, their party left them.
P.S. Listen on the radio and read Dennis Prager. He will make you think and see things clearly.
I believe in redemption. I believe there is hope for some of the readers.
Yesterday's debacle would be easier to accept if Bush & Co. had stolen the election. But this is not true. The simple fact is that the republicans won fair and square, which means that, for good or ill, the U.S. is a socially conservative country. The acceptance of this (admittedly) unpalatable fact is the starting point of any democratic resurgence. We are the minority, and mocking the religious right will get us nowhere.
"Having a strong "message" is rather contrary to liberal ideals. I hope as sullivan says that the union can break down into red states and blue states. You want dope illegal? fine! it is crime! don't smoke it. We, over here, on the other hand, will. (same for all the other divisive issues).
"
Heh. Didn't take long for Democrats to convert over to states rights. Took about 1 min after realizing the implications of the GOP sweep.
Wonder how long it'll take the republicans to decide that the whole state's rights thing is a crock and convert to federalism?
There needs to be a progressive version of FOX News. The fairness doctrine isn't coming back, so we need to get our own views on the TV.
FOX is a big part of the reason we are here today.
How about a news channel that focuses on (gasp!) analysis and historical context? It need not be over-intellectual, just ACCURATE!
"Yesterday's debacle would be easier to accept if Bush & Co. had stolen the election. But this is not true. The simple fact is that the republicans won fair and square, which means that, for good or ill, the U.S. is a socially conservative country. The acceptance of this (admittedly) unpalatable fact is the starting point of any democratic resurgence. We are the minority, and mocking the religious right will get us nowhere."
Ohollern...you have one of the few coherent comments on here. You are right on. If you can get your other buddies on your wagon we can engage in a real conversation.
It's amazing to me to read all conspiracy theorys put out by the left. I thought is was the right who had the corner on conspiracy nuts...but I have never seen more of them than on these blogs.
Get your act together folks. I am not on your side, but the country needs a real give and take. Right now...we don't have an opponent in the debate.
That means you need to learn to articulate your message. Kerry never had one. Clinton didn't have one either but he needed only 42% of the vote to win.
How frighteningly similar America is becoming to Iran, my previous homeland.
Iranian mullahs too used the potent mix of religion, right wing patriotism, with a heavy dose of FEAR to turn a peaceful Blue Persia into a Red Islamic Republic of Iran, where the church determines the affairs of the state and tolerates no other. They too used "national security" and "God's plan" as a means to infringe on rights and freedoms, and used a frighteningly powerful media that was capable of brainwashing the simple "heartland" hoi polloi.
EXACTLY the way things are moving here now.
Rest in Peace, The Democratic Party. (especially if things are to continue the way they have)
Marriage here in Ohio has become a symbol of bigotry. What about an effort to boycott marriage in states that have passed these hate amendments? An organized group of folks who refuse to get married but still raise families, married couples getting divorced in the name of civil rights.
At the same time there should be an effort to pressure insurance companies to insure all "cohabitors" or families who choose not to get married.
Or maybe only get married in states like Massachusetts who have protected the integrity of marriage instead of turning it into a symbol of hate.
Am I just dreaming here?
our "organizations" were the problem. They focused not on getting out the vote but on instilling antipathy. Moveon.org is the classic example. All this did was generate passion among rural Republicans. Michael Moore does not help us. He did far more for their GOTV campaign than anything they did for ours. If somehow MoveOn could be transformed to do actual useful work instead of running attack ads that simply piss large numbers of people off, we might stand a chance in 2008.
I think that Atrios is correct that the problem the Democrats face is clearly defining something that they are in favor of, rather than just being the anti-Bush or anti-"Repug" party.
I'm one of the voters that the Democrats lost in the last ten years, and the reason is that I stopped believing in the essence of the liberal message, which is this: government should fix the problems of society. I believe very much in people working to improve the human condition; I just happen to believe now that using government to do it is not only inefficient, but usually morally wrong. I say that because government is really nothing more than a group of people who will use force to make others do what they wish. And that power must be limited to the smallest sphere necessary to protect our liberty, and nothing else.
So when liberals, with the best of intentions, suggest a program for addressing some social problem, they lose me as soon as they want to use government to force me to participate. Real charity, real caring, should not be something the government forces people to do. It should be voluntary. Liberal people who want to improve things should do it through charities and non-profit organizations, making their case to their fellow citizens and getting them to participate voluntarily. If you can't convince people to participate voluntarily, it is the height of arrogance to use government to compel them to participate -- financially or otherwise -- against their will.
Liberals hate it when conservatives try to use government to stop gay people from getting married, for example, but they turn around and feel it is appropriate to use government to force people to give up their money (through taxes) to fund their plans.
What I'm trying to say is this: Democrats are searching for a message not because they don't have a message -- they do -- but because that message has been rejected by most voters. The problem, as I see it as a former Democrat, is that as much as they mean well, Democrats' fundamental ideas (use government power to solve problems, turn over power to international bodies) are just bad ideas. I don't think they will ever succeed. You can keep searching for different ways to express the ideas (like Clinton calling taxes 'contributions', as if a person had a choice about paying them) but the essence of the ideas will be the same, and that essence is just wrong.
More important than the message is the messenger. Have you noticed how the GOP message is pervasively "out there," and rarely needs to be stated. The reasons for voting Republican are "out there," whether or not a particular candidate actively sells them.
GB did not need to get out there with words like, "I support anti-abortion legislation, and would choose supreme court justices who will reverse Roe v. Wade," because the notion is well-settled and understood by his base. He uses warmer, friendlier code words, like moral values, to sell to those who need deeper persuasion and are concerned about these wedgy issues. For the base, the one-issue types are handled subsilentio by independent outreach groups and by the 72 hour program.
This permits GOP candidates, without appearing so much to be flip-flopping, to simply play down the unpopular aspects of their platform -- and even at times to appear "thoughtful" or "principled" by separating themselves from the message.
Liberals are painted by the GOP because they can be. We ahve no message independent of a candidate -- almost none. Just the general tag liberal, which has been spun out of control.
The message and its messengers needs to be out there, and the messnengers need somewhat to be different from the candidate, freeing the candidate to sell herself, and not the liberal program.
I think there are more of them than there are of us, but: I don't think our values are necessarily totally divorced from one another. What happened was that Bush appealed to a certain subset of values and issues that we don't share. But as Americans, we share far more values with them than they'd like to admit. The key, then is to appeal to the common values and actually start convinving people, not trying to get more of us out there.
We do need to more clear about what our ideas & message are. We need to reframe the current public discourse. Read George Lakoff's book "Don't Think of an Elephant" and pass it around! This is the direction that we need to move in!
The liberal platform is as clear today as it was in Jefferson's time. We stand for freedom, justice and individual rights. Conservatives stand for order, duty and authority.
There are going to be hard times. Much of what we have accomplished will be dismantled, from abortion rights to environmental protection to social security. We must fight every inch of the way, but we will lose ground.
But in the long run the game is ours. The values of todays young people and the children will be the base on which we rebuild. Meantime, let's keep the lamp lit.
we need a simple, clear, resonant platform that contrasts clearly with the conservatives and their textual canon, and provides an immediate and resounding answer to any question asked.
The Bill of Rights
The Bill of Rights
The Bill of Rights
The Bill of Rights
Actually, there are a lot more of
us that are politically active.
And here is what we can do.
We attack. If every one of us simply
took on our favorite issue, and join
up with others of like mind, this
could create huge, ongoing problems,
for the bush.
As they say in the military,
this is a target rich environment.
And this could be a lot of fun, too.
Oh, also, no honeymoon this time.
Other than the greedy, the corrupt, the power-mad and the stupid, who voted for Bush this time? Oh, yes, the scared. But I consider them to be brain-challenged, a subset of stupid.
It's gonna be a long four years without an impeachment hearing to liven things up.
I think we have to start laying the case now. Go visit Ramsey Clark's website and sign up if you haven't already.
It's not to soon to begin the trial of George W Bush.
Other than the greedy, the corrupt, the power-mad and the stupid, who voted for Bush this time? Oh, yes, the scared. But I consider them to be brain-challenged, a subset of stupid.
It's gonna be a long four years without an impeachment hearing to liven things up.
I think we have to start laying the case now. Go visit Ramsey Clark's website and sign up if you haven't already.
It's not too soon to begin the trial of George W Bush.
This just in from Drudge. An expose that explains it all!!!!
http://politicalhumor.about.com/...pic-
demseal.htm
"What we need is a response to the Contract for America - a Ten Commandments of progressivism."
Way ahead of you. Here is what I propose:
The program needs to be simple, and acceptable to a fair majority (55-60%) of Americans. It needs to find and use themes that resonate among the general public. I call it the America Plan:
Plank 1: The Party of Fiscal Discipline. Slogan: “End the Freeloading.” The Democratic Party pledges to reduce the deficit, end corporate welfare, and stop government benefiting those who don’t need the money.
Plank 2: The Party of National Security. Slogan: “People, not Profiteers.” The Democratic Party pledges to spend military dollars on increasing salaries, training, and safety for the individual soldiers. It will reduce spending on wasteful programs that line the pockets of military contractors.
Plank 3: The Party of Small Business. Slogan: “Put Mom and Pop over MegaCorp.” Lower taxes for small business (especially start-ups). Higher minimum wage for large employers only. End incentives to outsource jobs. Subsidize health care for small businesses.
Plank 4: The Party of Health. Slogan “The $200 (or whatever) health care plan.” Give people access to a flat fee health care program. The program will be pay-as-you go, and optional. The important thing is to develop a clear dollar figure you can use as a slogan. Grant doctors greater input into health care, and make it easier to shop HMOs. Stem-cell research.
Plank 5: The Party of the Environment. Slogan: “Preserving America.” Greater local oversight of natural resources. Increased requirement for corporations to clean up contaminated sites. Subsidize conservation and environmental restoration by private landowners.
Plank 6: The Party of Energy Independence. Slogan: “American Ingenuity over Foreign Oil.” Lower taxes for power companies using renewable resources. Subsidize alternate energy production. Invest in clean coal technology, nuclear power.
Plank 7: The Party of Life. On abortion: point out rate of abortions has increased under Bush. Offer support to at-risk women, affordable daycare, counseling for teens. Program to fight teen pregnancy. Propose ban on late-term abortions with exception for rape, incest, and health of the mother and end this wedge issue. Support reduction in executions and ensure speedy review of cases with new DNA evidence. Stem-cell research.
Plank 8: The Party of the Family Farmer. End agricultural subsidies, replace with tax breaks for small family farms, and for those who want to buy land from large agricultural corporations.
Plank 9: The Party of Education: The Democrats need to come up with a workable alternative to vouchers. The increasing flood of children being educated in sectarian schools, private schools or being home-schooled, is long-term danger to the Democratic Party. I welcome suggestions.
Plank 10: The Party of Personal Privacy. Slogan “Privacy at Home, Transparency in Government.” End government’s ability to dig into library and video rental records, end secret government meetings, end government’s ability to detain citizens without charges or trial. Strengthen FOIA.
"Other than the greedy, the corrupt, the power-mad and the stupid, who voted for Bush this time? Oh, yes, the scared. But I consider them to be brain-challenged, a subset of stupid."
When will we realize that we will never succeed in changing the minds of people who disagree with us by calling them bad names.
Markj wrote: "I'm one of the voters that the Democrats lost in the last ten years, and the reason is that I stopped believing in the essence of the liberal message, which is this: government should fix the problems of society."
Markj, should your health, safety, economic security or some other element of your longterm best interests come up against those of an Enron, a Tyco, a Liberty Savings & Loan, a W.R. Grace, a Johns Manville, a Merk, you might wish you'd had something or someone on your side, looking out for your interests, that could provide more deterrence before the fact; or bring more oomph to the fray after the fact, when you or a loved one or your community have gotten hurt really bad; more oomph than the lawyer you might be able to retain. (Unless or until the GOP manages to do away with such legal recourse.)
Trust me, Bush and his pro-corporate, conservative Republican friends are all about "making this country the best place in the world to do business," not about your health, safety or longterm best interests. And what they mean by that sanitized euphemistic phrase has to do with getting away with things you don't want them getting away with.
Small, weak government had its place in a quaint past during which screwed-over average folks could still move West and make a better life for themselves, availing themselves of the biggest, best welfare system any country ever had: the American frontier. That frontier is gone, and hundreds of millions are hard up against the depredations of some ruthless, conscienceless, greed-driven people and their bought-and-paid-for errand boys and girls in government, Republicans, mostly.
You need to rethink your situation, Markj, and so should a whole lot of other people. I don't know if you've ever had an in-depth conversation with people who lived through the 1920s and the Great Depression. I have, and it was very educational.
"They did so precisely because he is a right wing asshole. Yes, the modern Republican party consists of nasty bigots and liars and the media rarely bothers to point out just how nasty they are (all the talking heads talking about the role of "moral values" in the election know that what that really means is "fag hating," but they won't say it). But, don't be fooled - people know what they voted for."
Please, go on thinking exactly this. You are right. Everyone who voted for Bush is a mindless, cruel, evil, homophobic asshole. Run with that. It's sure to lead to you victory next time. Here's a suggested opener, just to get your new reality-based campaign going. No, no, my pleasure; it's the least I can do.
"People of middle America, you voted for an asshole and we know you liked it. You are bigots. You are liars. You are calculating bastards. You all hate gay people, we know this. Now we'd like you to consider our ideas and give us your vote. Thank you."
So Atrios, what color is the sky in your reality-based community?
" "We will start on Social Security now. We will start bringing together those in Congress who agree with my assessment that we need to work together," he (W) said in his first news conference after the bitterly contested presidential election."
In "those in Congress who agree with my assessment that we need to work together" who but a moron could fail to see an unrepentant rapacious vulture bent on undermining real unification and the total destruction of social security? (I truly apologize to all vultures everywhere.) "His assessment." I can barely restrain the tears.
Steve
Thanks Steve, coming from you, I imagine that's a compliment.
Thanks Steve, coming from you, I imagine that's a compliment.
"Actually, there are a lot more of
us that are politically active.
And here is what we can do.
We attack. If every one of us simply
took on our favorite issue, and join
up with others of like mind, this
could create huge, ongoing problems,
for the bush."
The problem is that this is what we have done in the past, diffused our efforts. We need a more coordinated effort, not people isolating themselves with their individual problems.
Steve
"Other than the greedy, the corrupt, the power-mad and the stupid, who voted for Bush this time? Oh, yes, the scared. But I consider them to be brain-challenged, a subset of stupid."
They were so stupid that they won the presidency and the congress. Again! We cannot afford to think of our adversaries as stupid. They may be trapped in a mindset that allows facts to bounce off them, but they are obviously certainly not stupid. Misinformed, yes. Show poor judgment, yes. But, stupid, no.
"It's not too soon to begin the trial of George W Bush. "
Such thinking is a waste of energy. All of our energies need to be directed to a concerted, coordinated effort to retake the congress in 2006 and the white house in 2008. Revenge is too late. The damage is already done. We have to stop the hemmorhaging of the republic.
Steve
"We do need to more clear about what our ideas & message are. We need to reframe the current public discourse. Read George Lakoff's book "Don't Think of an Elephant" and pass it around! This is the direction that we need to move in!"
Everyone must get a copy of and read Lakoff's book. It's eye-opening. It makes sense.
GEORGE LAKOFF "DON'T THINK OF AN ELEPHANT"
I, my relatives, and my acquaintances have no financial interest in the success of this book.
The Democrats and the left in general has one big problem among many, that is mainly that they are the purveyors of a failed ideology. No one believes in socialism anymore. It failed. It died with the fall of the Eastern Block and the rotting and dying social welfare systems of Western Europe. Americans are smart enough to see how Europe is now filled with stagnant, dying societies of chronic 12% unemployment, zero population growth, anemic economic growth and aging populations. They are smart enough to remember the vast wastelands our cities became in the 1970s as the police stopped enforcing the laws in the name of justice and the welfare spigots wasted billions. Please, go ahead run as real progressives and liberals in 08. Run Howard Dean or better yet Al Sharpton and watch him loose by 30 million votes. Face it folks, you might as well be the John Birch society and start building compounds in Idaho. You are narrow minded hicks who live in the echo chambers in places like NYC and Berkley and haven't figured out just how out of touch with reality you have become. The world passed you by. The 1960s ended on Tuesday and with it Western leftist liberalism in the United States. There is no guarantee that a political ideology will last forever. Seen any monarchists lately? Face up to it, you people are loosers, yesterday's news, curious cranks holding obsolete out of touch views. Its all downhill from here.
Just read most of the posts in this thread and am shocked at how off-base many of them seem to be. Having lived in multiple 'red' states before moving to the 'land of the blue', I can attest that most of those people are very nice, decent, hard-working people. Characterizing them all as 'bigots' and 'off-the-deep-end religious nuts' is ignorant. Are some of them like that, sure. Are some on the left like that as well, sure.
The reason the liberal movement is in disarray right now is due to the lack of a very concise and coherent message. The Republicans got their recent momentum started when Newt Gingrich unveiled his Contract With America. Regardless of your take on its contents, it showed a vision. The Republicans have continued to capitalize on it by pushing that they are for strong defense, small government, lower taxes, and moral values. As evidenced by the election, the majority of Americans are attracted to that......and the Democratic leadership needs to learn from that. They need to release a concise, easily-communicated vision. Then they need to make progress, even if in baby-steps, towards attaining it. This will give them something to be elected for instead of just being against the other person/group.
Using your workplace as an analogy. Who would you rather work for: a boss who is moving and shaking and gets things done, though you don't necessarily agree with everything he/she does; or the person in the office who consistently says 'that guy sucks, I'd do it better', but doesn't show that from his/her actions. Actions definitely speak louder than words, and I suspect most people would rather work for the boss who gets results and will, for the most part, overlook the warts that person has.
My 2 cents....
Just read most of the posts in this thread and am shocked at how off-base many of them seem to be. Having lived in multiple 'red' states before moving to the 'land of the blue', I can attest that most of those people are very nice, decent, hard-working people. Characterizing them all as 'bigots' and 'off-the-deep-end religious nuts' is ignorant. Are some of them like that, sure. Are some on the left like that as well, sure.
The reason the liberal movement is in disarray right now is due to the lack of a very concise and coherent message. The Republicans got their recent momentum started when Newt Gingrich unveiled his Contract With America. Regardless of your take on its contents, it showed a vision. The Republicans have continued to capitalize on it by pushing that they are for strong defense, small government, lower taxes, and moral values. As evidenced by the election, the majority of Americans are attracted to that......and the Democratic leadership needs to learn from that. They need to release a concise, easily-communicated vision. Then they need to make progress, even if in baby-steps, towards attaining it. This will give them something to be elected for instead of just being against the other person/group.
Using your workplace as an analogy. Who would you rather work for: a boss who is moving and shaking and gets things done, though you don't necessarily agree with everything he/she does; or the person in the office who consistently says 'that guy sucks, I'd do it better', but doesn't show that from his/her actions. Actions definitely speak louder than words, and I suspect most people would rather work for the boss who gets results and will, for the most part, overlook the warts that person has.
My 2 cents....
Dear Atrios and others: I can't understand why you can't understand. I am the fabled "independent voter." I voted, in the end, for neither Bush nor Kerry. I would have liked to vote for Kerry, but you (Atrios) and others spewed hate toward Bush and "red" America (of which I am in no way a part) and Kerry not only did not say a word to stop you, but fanned the flames. Clinton was honorable in this regard, but Kerry was not. Bush and the Repubs lied about or distorted some things (Kerry's health care program, for example). Kerry could have responded by insisting on truth, but he responded with his own pack of lies and distortions (about the stem cell research "ban" and Bush's supposed desire to bring back the draft, for example). Sorry Bush won; very glad Kerry lost.
Okay... let's see.
Come to my door and call me a "bigot, homophobe, and xenophobe" to my face and you will part company with your teeth.
Of course, slander me from far away like cowards would and do... and I can do nothing. Thank your gods.
On the other hand, if you can actually PROVE that I HATE homosexuals, I will kiss you on the lips.
and maybe take you to the dentist afterwards to see about those teeth...
see? This isn't about conservatism or liberalism... it's about what kind of honor or dishonor you plant at the feet of those you disagree with. In some places dishonor is met with violence.
Amazing..... I can't believe people actually think this way. First of all, Bush won the election because he was voted into office by a majority. Do you understand the concept of a majority? That's the thing, you don't. Liberals will never grasp that concept. That's the problem with you guys. You would rather support the minority voice and say fuck the majority at any cost. It's insane that liberals would go so far as to call the rest of the country idiots for electing Bush. That they are out of their minds and that this country doesn't know what it's doing. Why? Because we disagree with you? Because more people supported the man you opposed. That makes us idiots? I guess the problem is this. You were the minority voice and no one seemed to care. You only had yourselves to cry to. There wasn't a group out there like liberal America to take up for you. To tell you that as a minority voice you deserve more. The best part is how liberals try to hide behind our troops. You should have seen it on election day over seas. I was in a foriegn country with fellow troops and 99.9% of everyone on that installation was cheering Bush. Every base, foreign or domestic, that I've ever lived on or visited has always been republican. I can't give you figures, but I would bet that it's in the 90th percentile. I was on a blog earlier that was trying to play on the emotions by using troops. It was "The Fighting Dem.'s"... That's funny, fighting and democrats in the same sentence. One last thing about the war you self-centered, self-serving assholes. What would you have us do? Us being this country. Would you have us stand by idly and do nothing? Would you have proposed giving Sadaam and Osama a big hug and saying "It's ok, we understand, it's our fault. We brought this on our selves. Just don't do it again." How would you have pursued justice after 9/11? Would you have even pursued justice at all? I was so proud of this country after 9/11. All the American flags and the patriotic stickers on cars. Everyone joining together for a cause. Then comes the election. Next thing you know, we're right back to the "Free Tibet" bumper stickers. You must be so pround of yourselves. You've accomplished so much with your diplomacy over the years. Carter had this country in shambles and Clinton, while getting a blow-job. Managed to let China skip about 3 decades in military technology. Probably something to do with the campaign funds the Chinese donated. "Sure, give me money and you can steal all the secrets you want." Let me guess, it never happened huh? It's amazing how that Senate hearing committee just went away. Could it be because the media wanted NOTHING TO DO with bringing down a liberal president? They don't seem to have a problem trying to bring down a patriot. You may hate him, but Bush loves this country. I don't agree with some of his policies, but there is no doubt in my mind that his love for the United States is genuine. United, you probably don't that word do you?
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