I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
The question of whether Bush has a mandate (or man date), is irrelevant. Let's face it, he acted as if he had one after the last election. With control of both houses, he will continue to act as if he has a mandate, whether the public believes he has one or not.
Hello it's me.
Yes, they do. There was a Star Trek, the Next Generation episode where a ship full of dumb aliens kidnapped either Jordi or Troi to get help - they were out in space and didn't know how to run their ship because they were too stupid.
I think we've been kidnapped by Dumb America and are being held hostage by them as they run our country into the ground. Dumb isn't going to win this. People are going to be really tired of Dumb before it's over. LOL.
welcome to the real politik
buy a jingo - buy american!
whatever - our opinions mean nought
is there ANY news in the world these days - or is it still the eternal love for mein fuhrer!?
bars, mitches!
So I wonder if Jr will find time for his preznitial physical exam now.
Of course they lowered the bar - how the hell could he reach it otherwise?
jebus .....
Well that press conference yesterday was pretty low, if you ask me. I daresay, however, that it can get lower and just might before the end is in sight.
dont worry we can still take ohio!!!1!1!1!1
And what kind of mandate did the Big Doggie have? Bush has it, because he won. You pukes cannot define what his agenda should be, you lost.
The mandate is the Republican House, the Republican Senate and the Republican Supreme Court.
The definition of mandate isn't important. He's behind the wheel and he gets to drive the country whither he wouldst.
A question that matters more is: What input,if any, does 48 percent of the country get in deciding where to go, or how to get there.
"pukes"?
Who made it possible for him to be reeleted? He is the media darling, little coochi coochi, if he says he has man-date, then media will provide him man-date, no questions raised.
You know, as much as I'd love to win Ohio, if Kerry did become president, he would be crucified.
But Bush reelction means showing the finger to whole world.
Earlier I posted that 51 percent of the voting public has abandoned humane values. This was a statement loaded with fallacies, assumptions and insults to those who voted for Bush. I had a conversation yesterday in the coffeeshop, with a Bush supporter. Yes, a real conversation. He is as concerned as I am, about so many issues. He wound up agreeing with most of what I said, and even backed down from defensiveness when I pointed out there are hungry people in this city, in New Orleans, and all over this country. Yes, people with not enough to eat, in this, the greatest democracy in the world, blah, blah, blah.
It is possible to talk to these people, like the pastry delivery man, who, after I admitted my feelings, admitted he really didn't like GW much. He professed a lack of confidence in his own ability to decipher political issues, and this is just the type of person that is drawn to the Daddy Knows Best politics of G.W.Bush.
I have confidence that we can, and must, learn to speak to these people. At the same time, I do not underestimate the viciousness of their leaders. I think it very important right now to distinguish between the leaders and their followers.
Go on calling them dumb, and see what this accomplishes.
As others have pointed out, the Bushists have always acted as if they had a mandate, even though they could care less whether or not they had one or not. They will crow that they are doing the "will of the people" because that's what propagandists and autocrats do.
The only group for which this "mandate" nonsense matters is for our craven and officious media. They'll exploit it as an excuse to shop for ever thicker kneepads.
It's going to be a very, very long four years.
Anonymous...
You and the rest of the trolls need to answer the question I posed on another thread, if you love Dear Leader so much why aren't you signing up to fight in Iraq? Now that would be a good way to show your love for Dear Leader, laying down your life for him.
If you are going to come over and play with us you need answer our questions.
If you don't some of us are liable to think that you just got lost on the internet looking for the "Fox Babes" website.
Let's finally put to rest the argument that anything that comes out of the White House has anything to do with the puppet Shrub. He has no independent capability, he cannot talk and he cannot reason.
The results are coming in however, and this time, there's no particular effort being made to conceal them. See this just in from Gahenna, Ohio.
One Citizen One Vote
Count --- Add --- Result
The only thing worth fighing for.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/
z?d108:HR02239:@@@N
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/
z?d108:SN01980:@@@P
Don't want to "break" holoscan. Don't know how to post links.
Above two links are for voting transparency and accountablity. Make sure your representative or senator is on this list. Dem or Rep both have to be in favor
Er, excuse me, but isn't it 51% vs 49%? I didn't vote for Nader, but people who did clearly voted against Bu$hCo. Shouldn't they count?
One of the things I've always liked about this board is a sense of shared intelligence. Bless Atrios for keeping a comments section despite the trolls. We are wasting our collective intelligence if we blame each other, the DNC, Kerry, etc. As far as elections go, this was semi legitimate and had all the hallmarks of a successful campaign...if traditional campaigns have a chance of success at this point. I suspect we need to shift emphasis to a different form of warfare and it will probably have to be economic (a la the punishment of Sinclair). I'm not sure what exact form it will take collectively since I'm not economically astute. My personal choice is to ask all my friends and relatives to donate any monies spent on Christmas gewgaws to whatever charity they choose. They seemed enthused and Bombay Company and Wal-Mart will make that much less.
One Citizen One Vote
Count --- Add --- Result
The only thing worth fighting for.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/
z?d108:HR02239:@@@N
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/
z?d108:SN01980:@@@P
Don't want to "break" holoscan. Don't know how to post links.
Above two links are for voting transparency and accountablity. Make sure your representative or senator is on this list. Dem or Rep both have to be in favor
Oops I can do better than that.
AP has "Dems have bad case of the blues..."
WTF? toughen up. This election was stolen on electronic voting machines and if we don't stop them now there won't be another election on the up and up. The machines are spreading.
Kristoff in the Times says we all better get values too. what values? racism and homophobia? Censorship of the internet? which values are we talking about here?
No. my values are to fight fascist corporate takeover of our government. We have to fight. And by fight I mean bring the pain.
Let's see what happens to his mandate as soon as he tries to placate the fundamentalists. His majority is about as stable as some of the isotopes of the man made elements.
Ours is much more solid and when part of his can't stand it any more there is no where else to go. What are they going to do, start a thrid party?
I have been ignoring the audible American media 100%, reliance on what I can get on the internet and through short-wave radio has more than made up for it.
Boycott CNN, if every Democrat refused to tune into them they will die. Then we can move on to MSNBC. It is within our power to punish that sector of Bushco directly. Kill the cable/tabloid "news" stations. They are the greatest source of disease in our body politic.
It's useless to discuss whether he has a mandate or not, because he controls all three branches of government. That's mandate enough. We've seen that already. And that control has now deepened even further.
Look! The Bush Administration just took off it's training wheels. Awwwww....
Next! An end to bedwetting? Eating with its mouth closed?
Bush has more of a mandate simply due to the fact he has a clear majority. NO 3rd party was any effect AND 3.5 million votes as well.
55-44-1
231-200-1
bitches...
The next 4 years = man date date rape.
It's amazing to see the insecurity complexes of the trolls, isn't it?
Guess what, anony-troll: you and your pack of sore winners are completely responsible for all of your beloved Chimp's man-dates from now till he's impeached. Thank you: that 51% means it's 100% your fucking fault.
Remember, with great power comes great responsibility. Use it wisely, because we sure as hell aren't going to give you any fucking advice from now on. Now try to tie your shoelaces on your own, bucko. Or see if the plastic Jesus can help you.
A question that matters more is: What input,if any, does 48 percent of the country get in deciding where to go, or how to get there.
And my answer is: fuck-all. Bush only wants you if you 'share his goals'. (And yes, Tena, that was probably one of the most sickening press conferences I've ever seen.) And that 48% shouldn't give him any input, either. Fuck him, he's on his own. The smart people are on our side, and we're keeping mum.
But isn't it curious? The Rethugs aren't satisfied with Chimpy, House and Senate. They seem to want us to... well, what? Become GOPpers? Move to their neighbourhoods? Kill ourselves? Start fucking their sex-starved wives instead of our gay partners?
They certainly seem curiously restless at the fact that voting for Il Chimpissimo didn't bring on a kind of anti-Rapture and magic away Democrats for ever, so that they can live in a world of Brooks & Dunn, WWE Smackdown and crushing boredom.
I agree with scorpiorising and posted this question on another thread: We must learn to talk to the nascar dads and every other demographic we dislike. It's tedious but how else will we win? Love your neighbor as yourself - and how our platform really personifies that theme - is a great place to start.
I understand the emotions behind hating the mouthbreathers in the midwest and south. But we need them.
northsylvania - I'm working on setting up a fund to run a kind of "underground railroad" for women when abortion is illegal again. I'm hoping to be able to help women in dire need to go to another country for a legal abortion. Also, if sodomy laws come back, to help gays and lesbians with legal problems.
Here's how I feel about the election nuts and bolts: I think it should be investigated. Not because it will change the outcome, but if we are ever going to have another fair election in this country, people need to get angry about what has been going on and I think they will. Let's push for investigating the election so we can work on changing this ridiculous system.
And look at it all this way - we get 4 years of hardcore political and social activism. We have time to hone everything and Bush is going down in flames eventually, to the point where only about 1% of the population , if any, still thinks he was some kind of "good" leader. I like playing offense. We get 4 more years of it.
This is going to be fun.
Why argue about the "mandate"? It's useless. Bush will do whatever he can get away with, just like in his 1st term.
Yes, 51-48% and 280-260 (whatever) electoral votes is not a mandate. Getting out the religiobigot vote that hates gay people is not a mandate. So? Bush will do whatever he can, and lie about it, so what's the point of arguing if he has a "mandate"?
Let's see what happens to his mandate as soon as he tries to placate the fundamentalists.
Quite. It's a bit hard to blame those powerful liberals. Though I don't doubt they will. After all, it's a sign of proto-fascism losing its 'proto-' when those with all the power start openly blaming the powerless.
And it's even harder to explain that, no, the fundies will never get abortion declared illegal, or gays cast into the ocean, because don't they know that it's just a carrot held in front of them while they get their pockets picked by billionaires and their kids sent out to die for the AWOL? What? You don't say?
northsylvania - I'm working on setting up a fund to run a kind of "underground railroad" for women when abortion is illegal again. I'm hoping to be able to help women in dire need to go to another country for a legal abortion. Also, if sodomy laws come back, to help gays and lesbians with legal problems.
This is going to be fun.
Tena | Email | Homepage | 11.05.04 - 9:14 am | #
Do you really think abortion is going to be illegal? I've got news for you, no matter how many people are against it, abortion is legal and always will be.
THEY CALL ME PASTABAGEL
EPT,
I like that. It's the media.
If the dems would have had the greatest "message" ever. One everybody loved. The perfect message. On cable and hate radio in about 2 seconds it would have been turned into a bigger pile of twisted wreckage than the towers on sept. 11.
It's the media!
PROTEST
PITTSBURGH
SATURDAY 3:30
University of Pittsburgh Campus
5th & Bigelow
In every stage of these Oppressions
We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our Repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a Free People.
Declaration of Independence 1776
www.BLACKBOXVOTING.org
League of Pissed off Voters
Ohio Voter Suppression News
www.pittnews.com
-L.
oh, and "mandate" my ASS!
ranking elections from 1968 through 2004, guess who wins Most Popular Candidate, with 60.67% of the votes and a 55.2% turnout of all Americans old enough to vote:
RICHARD NIXON.
in terms of % of popular vote, W gets # 4 (so far, with many counts not in, and looks like a lot more in dispute, not to mention people who never got the chance despite trying ALL DAY to vote.)
and John Kerry gets 47.99% (again, so far--but will the rest ever be counted?)
mandate? bullshit.
source:
www.uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT
welcome to the occupation.
-L.
We must learn to talk to the nascar dads and every other demographic we dislike.
It's not about 'dislike'. You think Bush really likes NASCAR? The GOP condescends and lures and lies. The Dems aren't very good at that kind of duplicity.
States' rights, baby. And how about this as a rallying cry for the left? Get the fucking gubmint off our back: the bedroom-invading, deficit-building Bushite gubmint.
I heard the pres on NPR and the sound bites are like listening to a preschooler talk..."I got pulitikal captial an i'm gonna spend it"
Imagine whne he got his first credit card.
It is still embarassing that he cannot even hide his glee at winning (maybe) and has to try to taunt everyone.
May only take 2 years before we get conress back under control after the goons max out an dpiss everyone off.
I heard the pres on NPR and the sound bites are like listening to a preschooler talk..."I got pulitikal captial an i'm gonna spend it"
Imagine whne he got his first credit card.
It is still embarassing that he cannot even hide his glee at winning (maybe) and has to try to taunt everyone.
May only take 2 years before we get conress back under control after the goons max out an dpiss everyone off.
Kathy
Instructions for making a hyperlink or tinyURL:
http://web.newsguy.com/christucker/tips.html">Click Here
51-48?
You Forgot Nader
If we're talking about whether Bush has a mandate to restructure the country, the margin of victory is really 51 - 49.
You can say what you want about Nader voters, but you certainly can't say that they want what's coming down the pike.
Er, wait a minute.
Clinton got higher percentages and higher electoral vote totals both times he ran.
But that didn't stop the GOPranos or their media courtesans from attacking him at every turn and then fabricating things to attack him about.
So what the fuck?
Besides which, Ohio and Florida still have some counting to do, and more than likely some litigation to go through as well. Until someone can produce a paper trail from those electronic machines to prove that Nero actually won, he still can't be considered legitimate. Sorry to disappoint you, fascist goons, but it looks like your "mandate" is nothing more than a bunch of misplaced electrons.
If 51% in a basically two person race gives a "mandate," what did 50.6% for Clinton in '96 give him in a three person race (albeit with a slightly weakened Perot who was much stronger than Nader)?
I've heard talking air heads call Bush's lead a "modern mandate," which, I think, gives him a mandate without having to earn one. Just change the definition, i.e., lower the bar.
Bush held a non-news conference yesterday to emaphsize having a "mandate"-the "will of the people at his back." Had to do it before more votes are counted, absentee and provo, from the blue states which might cut his popular vote lead.
Having a Repub Congress and Supreme Court gives him more power--not necessarily a mandate. Repubs do not govern to reflect the will of the people; they govern to consolidate and enlarge their power and enforce their agenda.
Oh, be sure to check out TalkingPointsMemo today where Josh brings up Buchanan's memo on using the Southern Strategy and its long-shot results. One half of his prediction (press coming down on the Nixonites) was short term; one half seems to have borne fruit, strange fruit (cut the country in half, but his guys get the bigger half). Read and weep.
Only we can help ourselves. It's hard to run against a powerful party and the press. So, I tend to agree with trying to bring the media to its senses.
Oh, yeah....
Kathy
I made a mistake somewhere, here it is again:
Click Here
In Bush's view, 2000 gave him a mandate. What 2004 represents is an anointing.
Clinton won in 1996 by a clear majority. He not only had a man-date, he got impeached!
Show how highly regarded man-dates are to repugs.
We must learn to talk to the nascar dads and every other demographic we dislike.
Come up with the lines we are supposed to tell them?
We have tried courting them for thrity years and they haven't signed our dance card even once. I'm giving up on them and Joe Six Pack, they're not good husband material. I'm looking for a sober working man who wants to take care of his responsibilities. And one who doesn't believe any lie told to him on TV and the radio.
It's the Southern conservatives who told all the lies against the North East, they're the ones who hate us.
Nascar is stupid and boring. There I said it. That doesn't mean I don't love my cousin who is a fanatic, just that I don't understand how anyone can spend hours at a time breathing in exhaust and turning their heads left and right.
His mandate is nonexistent NOT because he only won by 1%. Its because he lied and misrepresented what he has done and will do in the future. Surveys have shown that the majority of Republicans believe the lies. If Bush actually DID what he claimed he was doing ("Clear Skies", "Healthy Forests", "Fiscal Responsibility", "Freedom is on the march in Iraq", etc.) we would be in OK shape. If he has a mandate at all he has a mandate for his lies, NOT for what he is actually doing.
COLUMBUS, Ohio - A computer error with a voting machine cartridge gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in a Gahanna precinct.
Franklin County's unofficial results gave Bush 4,258 votes to Democratic challenger John Kerry's 260 votes in Precinct 1B. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct.
Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections, said Bush received 365 votes there. The other 13 voters who cast ballots either voted for other candidates or did not vote for president.
Damschroder said he received some calls Thursday from people who saw the error when reading the list of poll results on the election board's Web site.
More...
Maybe dear leader decided to take a little break from it all and go strafe an elementary school with a fighter jet (we all know he's a pilot, right?).
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/05...d.ap/
index.html
Anonymous: why don't you just blow me? what kind of puke hangs around a place where she is so obviously hated? Crawl back under the rock where you live.
talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations...
-- Tena, your reference to the "Star Trek TNG" episode was funny and apropos, except that we sore losers are no help to the winners. At the moment, we are Enemies of the State.
Consider the trolls who've been lifting their collective legs over this board all year. Now they come swarming in, like Lynndie England and the fighting Uruk-hai (or the Borg, to stick with the ST theme). Their trajectories are a bit higher, and their urine a bit more stinging, because of all of the adrenaline and uric acid pumped into the mix by their skinny victory.
And we're no better than the Abu Ghraib prisoners-- or, for that matter, than the desperate captives sitting or kneeling in front of hooded terrorists. The trolls display the same fanatic hatred and malice. Which, I admit, is not entirely unreciprocated. Anyhoo, my point is only that they don't seem to require our help, and are certainly not asking for it. They'd rather toss us into the Duck Pit.
-- The term "mandate" has always been a chimera, which is to say an imaginary monster. As I said in another thread, I always thought it would make a good name for a line of scents marketed to gay men. It has a bold and impressive sound: mandate!
But that's about all it's good for. It is simply a rhetorical device, trumpeted by winners to reinforce the myth that there is monolithic support for those in power. There never is, really.
Mandate. Schmandate.
Here's what we have: a mission. Mars, bitches!
It's useless to discuss whether he has a mandate or not, because he controls all three branches of government. That's mandate enough. We've seen that already. And that control has now deepened even further.
Melic
It's time we stopped worrying about the three branches in DC and started worrying about the real government, the people. The three branches never made any progress on their own, it's only when they were forced to by the people that they did anything good.
And we aren't without influence in DC. We've got enough senators to block them on many issues and a number of house memebers who can figure something out too.
The first thing to do is cut the "red states" off of their hand outs. If they want our money they can only have it on a fair exchange basis.
"mandate" = "i'm king"
p e r i o d.
I was following the discussion earlier this morning about how the pundits have been saying that the youth vote was low when it was actually pretty high.
The other "new CW" that puzzles me is the theory that millions of fundamentalists were organized through their churches to vote for the anti-gay marriage initiatives.
I can see where ABC, CNN, etc. would miss it, but wouldn't you think it would have been talked about somewhere in the blogosphere - freeperville if not kerryville? How did we miss it?
There was a Star Trek, the Next Generation episode where a ship full of dumb aliens kidnapped either Jordi or Troi to get help - they were out in space and didn't know how to run their ship because they were too stupid.
Tena, I love that analogy. The incompetent aliens kept repeating, "you make things go, we can't make things go, please make it go" or something like that. In my IT support world, we used to satirize the technically ignorant (when out of earshot, of course) using those same lines. Now I'll have to look up the name of that alien 'race' again.
One other point - having been a poll watcher this year in a particularly Repug precinct here in Dallas Co., I can also report that the Libertarian, Badnarik (sp?) also pulled almost 1% away - from Bush, I presume.
What the huh?
Plus this bogus idea that it was a "moral" mandate at that....
How can that be when at most half (and I am being very generous as I bet is is closer to 20%-25%)of Junior's voters were religious zealouts voting because they believe God told them to do that. In which case that is approximately 30 million voters, a minority of the total of 113.5 million votes cast. Never mind adding in all those voters who didn't even show up at the polls.
But somehow this is now ingrained in the public that this is a "moral" majority yet in reality it is a "moral" minority.
In reality, the delusional radical religious "moral" minority is trying to rule the country and world. And true to Rove form, the thugs are spinning it as a moral values mandate. And even truer to form, the compliant supine stenographer-megaphone 4th Estate, is once again falling for this false script(ure).
I would be curious to see if the number of voters who voted for Kerry and who were against the Iraq war constituted a larger percentage of his voters and more total numbers than those radical religious voters of Junior's. I bet the total number of those types of voters would be equal if not higher than the religious right, yet somehow that issue is lost.
And way lastly, how is it that this same minority somehow now means the Democrats should turn hard right.
talking point:
Bush--less popular than NIXON.
(so far, Nixon whoops his ass in both % of popular vote, AND in turnout!)
NIXON: he won 60.67% from 55.2% of voting age Americans showing up to vote.
Bush is 10% less on the first, and we are not close to hitting that turnout figure (unless a HECKUVA LOT of votes are missing...which also begs the question: why were the polls in the cities so unprepared? why did we wait in line ALL DAY? mmmmm...)
-L.
I don't think "mandate" is an accurate way to describe the outcome of this election. Bush/Rove won by employing a very calculated divide-and-conquer strategy. With the help of a timid media, they successfully manipulated the sense of values of middle America. It worked. Now America is getting the President it deserves.
This President is basically incompetent, largely due to his inability to reflect critically on any of his decisions. It will come home to roost during this next term.
As usual, we have to go through the work of converting the statement back to reality. Take this:
"""
Here's David Sanger in today's New York Times: "Mr. Bush no longer has to pretend that he possesses a clear electoral mandate. Because for the first time in his presidency, he can argue that he has the real thing."
"""
And convert it to this:
"As in his previous term as presnit, Bush cannot argue that he has any real mandate. And so, yet again he must pretend (loudly and boisterously, with great Texan Bluster) that he possesses a clear electoral validation of his positions and leadership."
speak truth to power.
-L.
Paul, Bush's incompetence came home to roost a hundred times in the current administration. It didn't matter.
Of course he thinks he has a mandate - this time he was actually elected. To him that seems like a real mandate!
Of course, every day I wonder more and more if he really was elected...
The other "new CW" that puzzles me is the theory that millions of fundamentalists were organized through their churches to vote for the anti-gay marriage initiatives.
I can see where ABC, CNN, etc. would miss it, but wouldn't you think it would have been talked about somewhere in the blogosphere - freeperville if not kerryville? How did we miss it?
q/n(a+b)
I brought this point up on a number of occasions, I diaried about it at kos and mentioned it here, because it bothered me. The fact that churches were sending out leaflets and preaching about Bush from the pulpit was alarming. Most of the comments I received on this topic were reassuring in that no one thought it was that big of a deal. I honestly believe that, by and large, most people on the left didn't see it coming.
The other "new CW" that puzzles me is the theory that millions of fundamentalists were organized through their churches to vote for the anti-gay marriage initiatives.
Have you checked out a cable or sat-TV lineup lately and seen how many 24/7 Christian fundie channels are on the air? The only reason I know about 'em is that I carefully went through my program guide and blocked them all out, along with the shopping channels and other crap I don't want to page-up or -down through. It was probably not so much the people going to church as the one sitting in front of their TVs absorbing THAT garbage -- stuff that no one pays attention to but the fundies.
Last night, an F-16 fighter jet of the 113th Wing of the District of Columbia Air National Guard fired 25 rounds of 20mm ammunition through the roof and the asphalt parking lot of the Little Egg Harbor Intermediate School in New Jersey, 3 1/2 miles from the range.
It seems that Bush was so energized by his new man date he now wants to complete his Air National Guard duty after all.
"We are strong, we have photon torpedo"
"We look for things, things that make us go."
Repubs are Pakleds.
Yes, I am a total geek, why do you ask?
I say let them think they have a mandate and overreach. It's the recent history of the Republican Party. Keep it up guys, you'll lose America for a generation.
He's behind the wheel and he gets to drive the country whither he wouldst.
Let's hope he gets pulled over and given a breathalyzer test.
Little Brother - while I might agree with what you are saying up to a point, I don't get what your point is, frankly.
I"ve been disinclined throughout this election to say that Americans are dumb up to now. But hell, the whole world is saying now. I don't understand what you mean about us being Enemies of the State - what are talking about and why is it relevant?
Bend over and lower a bar for you. Sorry, just fantasizing my Man Date with W.
Magnum, I mean really come home to rooost. He's gotta hit the wall somewhere, and they can only spin it away for so long. He's in over his head, he doesn't have the capacity for this job, but because he doesn't realize that, he is extremely dangerous. There will be a major scandal next term, or some equally consequential event.
Vicki Stein - I most assuredly think it's a great big damn deal that churches got all up in this campaign and are all up in our government. And I think this next however long Bush is actually in office is going to show the country that that has to stop.
And I think it will.
And whoever is naive enough to believe that Roe V Wade will still be the law after this administration is finished is more naive than I thought possible.
Scalia has signaled strongly for the last 2 years that Roe is gone as soon as the dynamics on the court change and they are getting ready to change. I want to be ready, too.
What we will end up with is the opposite of the Warren court. The south hated that court because of civil rights. They've been gunning for all those laws ever since. Watch it happen.
We'll have to put it back together eventually. But right now, we have to deal with the godawful situation we have
I'm speaking with a salesman in Texas right now about the election. He didn't vote, but he said that if he did, it would have been for Bush. I told him I thought we were raped by the Christian Fundamentalists, and he said, "Well, Vicki, you know, they have their point too, and frankly, we need to back off of the idea of separation of church and state. That, in and of itself, is what has taken our God fearing country in the wrong direction for the last 50 years."
Folks, this is what we are up against.
I'm so depressed at the moment.
COLUMBUS, Ohio - A computer error with a voting machine cartridge gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in a Gahanna precinct.
Well, that's 3893 more votes for Kerry!
I TRULY think there is something going on with the vote count. I heard John Edwards and John Kerry give their concession speeches. I heard John Edwards say all the votes will be counted.
You can not convince me that Kerry would have given up so easily with all the questions about electronic voting, the analysis of the Florida vote as being worse than in some countries the UN has monitored, the exit polls saying Kerry was ahead, or the last nationwide polls saying Kerry was leading in many of them. I believe they very quietly conceded so that work could get started without Bush's lawsuits to stop them, and the nation would not be further upset with all of the proceedings. I think it was a very thoughtful, classy thing for Kerry/Edwards to do, and definitely taking the high road.
Kos has more on this.
Paul is right.
Iraq will NOT turn out well. It is already melting down and we are losing. There is no visible path to a happy outcome.
The economy will have serious trouble. Bush may not understand this but it REALLY IS TRUE that half trillion dollar deficits arent sustainable. This shit will hit the fan sooner than 4 years from now if he doesnt act to correct it. And he has just made it clear that he isnt going to correct it, he is going to do everything he can to make it WORSE. Every time you hear "make the tax cuts permanent" you should go out and convert more dollars to euros. You wont be sorry.
Tena
You are right about Roe v. Wade. And I also think that there are a lot of people who voted Republican on economic grounds (deluded fools, but still, thats what they did) who never imagined that abortion could ever really be outlawed. Most women now of child bearing age cant remember a time before Roe. And they will be very surprised when it is overturned.
When it is, we are going to see a major defection of suburban "security moms" and others from the Repubs. I cant wait.
(PS. And this is a major reason I am bummed that the Dems picked Harry Reid, an anti-abortion dem, for minority leader - write your dem senators now if you have them)
Tena, I know you know it's a big deal. I respect you and your foresight very much. A number of people who post here think it's a big deal. But in light of everything else that we were reviewing during the campaign, this one got lost under the radar ~ especially in the media.
CHICAGO— November 1, 2004 – Voter mobilization efforts at the RainbowPUSH Coalition have been temporarily halted due to a mysterious virus, which has disrupted telephone service at the organization’s headquarters in Chicago.
The untimely disruption, occurring on the eve of the November 2nd election, has prevented more than 100 volunteers from making the final thrust in mobilizing voters for Tuesday’s election. The callers, who are a part of the organization’s “Get Out the Vote Effort,” were scheduled to make thousands of calls to newly registered voters today. Officials said they are currently exploring alternative sites for the volunteers to make the calls.
SBC technicians have been on site since 8 a.m. Monday to repair the telephone system in hopes of having the service restored for Election Day when the Rainbow/PUSH headquarters becomes Election Central, a center for troubleshooting problems voters might encounter. The failure to restore the system before Tuesday could have a major impact on black and minority voters in Chicago and around the nation.
“We do not view the suspicious pattern as coincidence, but rather another dart in an arsenal of attacks aimed at organizations which promote democracy,” said Rev. Jesse Jackson, founder and president of the organization.
The organization, officials said, experienced a similar problem the eve of the election four years ago, and they questioned if this current system failure is part of an elaborate scheme to hamper voter turnout on Tuesday.
In recent weeks, there have been numerous reports of voter suppression schemes.
MANDATE MY ASS:
Bush won by the smallest margin since 1918,
and the smallest margin ever for a "war president" in U.S. history.
A< href="http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=e5ac0f6d9a7cd2c69902a62f4e950549">A social anthropologist studies their leaders.
(I guess Jane Goodall can study their voters)
.
whooops! shortcut keys = diff. on Macs. Shit!
< a href="http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=e5ac0f6d9a7cd2c69902a62f4e950549">link
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
.
silleigh,
Did you see the odd #'s coming out of Florida. Since you live down there I wondered what you think?
http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
I are the Pakled Blogger! Duh!
link
.
[crosses fingers]
.
[whew!]
.
The election was stolen and I don't care what that salesman said, he and his ilk are not the majority in this country. And those who have had a kind of "soft" support for that viewpoint are getting ready to turn around and come back to us.
Of that I am convinced.
We can do this. They are not the majority. Believe it.
"I'll reach out to everyone who shares our goals."
GWBush, Nov 4, 2004
uhhuh.
Frightening. Looks like those who don't share the Radical Reich's goals shall be ignored and swept aside.
Since all branches are now in the GOP's hands, we only have the Fourth Estate to watch, investigate, and tell us what is going on.
Oh wait - the Fourth Estate was sold.
Guess it's the Fifth Estate now - the Internets! Thanks Atrios!
He's not going to argue. We all saw how well he could argue in the debates.
The crowing rooster will just say he has one, which will be good enough for the slavish media.
"The fact that churches were sending out leaflets and preaching about Bush from the pulpit was alarming. Most of the comments I received on this topic were reassuring in that no one thought it was that big of a deal."
Also those leaflets that said Kerry would ban the Bible.
Oh, how we laughed. Surely no one would believe such obvious garbage. What a sign of desperation.
The reason LGF and Freepers never mentioned it is that their membership appears to be mainly secular, mainstream Christian denomination or Catholic, or radical-right Jewish.
An awful lot of hardcore Fundies are totally disconnected from the Internet and Mainstream Media. They built their own Media and Entertainment options instead. They don't troll message boards, they are busy with Church activities, watching exculsively Christian television, or socializing with their families instead.
The real interesting thing, which Pastabagel brings up, is what happens to all the people who vote Republican on defense and financial issues but believe that "abortion will never be illegal" or that equality of pay for women is a given. They are in for some very rude surprises, because they truly believe that all those Fundie hot-button issues are just rhetoric.
They aren't rhetoric to the New Republican Base.
Did anyone else notice this from the article to which Prof. Atrios links?
And a Gallup poll conducted after the election found that 63 percent of voters would prefer to see Bush pursue policies that "both parties support" compared to only 30 percent who want Bush to "advance the Republican Party's agenda."
Those who claim people voted for Bush knowing what they would get are wrong. Bush has merely managed to prove that while "you can fool all of the people some of the time and some people all of the time", all that matters in a republic is the ability to full a majority of the people every election cycle.
Now the question is what kind of Cheneytard would think that GWB would pursue policies that "both parties would support"?
P.T. Barnum was right - there is a sucker born every minute.
So the New York Times now admits that Bush "pretended" to have a mandate during his first term? And the day after the election the LA Times runs a piece on US troops watching Iraqis clean out 380 tons of explosives and drive them away in pickup trucks? Why do they think that sitting on the truth until the election is over is how journlists look unbiased?
It's not better late than never.
It's better to get it right the first time.
Sure, he can argue that.
He'd be wrong.
He will crow until January. At that point he will have to try to get something done in Congress and that wont be easy.
1. Facts are stubborn and the facts suck for Bush both in Iraq and the economy
2. The repubs couldnt get anything done THIS year. Why would it be better next? They will have even more trouble reconciling the religious fanatic wing of their party with the reality based wing.
"Reality based repubs"? Yes, they do exist and there are at least 6 for any given issue in the senate (e.g. Hagel, Lugar, Collins, Snow, Chafee, Specter) which means our main task will be to constantly try to divide and conquer by peeling off enough repubs to completely tie the religious wing in knots.
It can be done.
Here is my blind anger:
I know calling them dumb won't help, but apparently neither does talking with them. I've made a decision that ouside of family and professional relationships, there is no need to be friendly with people whom I know voted for Bush? Why bother? Life is too short. I'll save my breath and time for people I have concern for.
My (wise) significant other told me that if the rest of America takes this attitude them the country will fall apart. My initial response was "Good, it fucking deserves it". I'm kind of torn between fighting to make Dubya's life a living hell from now until he dies, or just giving up on America and moving to where saner people live.
Tena
You know what I think those #'s for Bush are even lower and some #'s should be higher for Kerry.
Mandate-I don't even think Bush won this.
5-9 hour lines in poor democratic areas. Some people had to go to work
Some people diabled, as I have witnessed couldn't stand any longer.
Votes for Kerry on E-voting machines
came up for Bush.
Ballots not counted or scanned correctly.
Ohio- Hanging chads again
Software problems giveing Bush more 3,000 more votes when only 632 people voted-(problem Caught)
Absentee ballot fraud
We keep arguing that he won this by 3%, hell I don't think he won this at all.
BTW-as far as the abortion rights go-I hung up on my Mom yesterday-after I told her thanks for taking abortion rights away. Oh! they will never do that-Get informed! I hung up-
At first shocked & depression set in-
and now I am f*cking furious. No asshole right wing is going to tell me to get over it-I'm not!
Libs -
Read Newsweek, and you'll be happy you didn't win. Teresa is scary! Laura is sweet.
Alderaan and all,
One thing that I learned from a minister to gay and lesbians in a conservative Ohio city is that the fundamentalist churches played videos or transmitted via satellite these films that addressed the gay marriage and abortion issues prior to the election. I'd be curious to know if they were the same videos across the country, and if they, in any way, endorsed Bush, other than just implied that Bush is the "Christian" candidate.
"America has spoken, and I am humbled by the trust and confidence of my fellow citizens. With that trust comes a duty to serve all Americans."
To serve all Americans.
To serve man.
It's a cookbook!
The reason LGF and Freepers never mentioned it is that their membership appears to be mainly secular, mainstream Christian denomination or Catholic, or radical-right Jewish.
I have mentioned this sort of phenomenon before, but I'll repeat it.
I don't know enough about right wing Catholics or secularists as groups to say for sure, but I suspect what I do know about right-wing (both Orthodox and neo-con/secular) Jews applies to other groups as well ...
Most of them have never met a white, evangelical Protestant until after they drank the kool-aid. For various reasons, the code used to attract right-wing evangelicals also attracts right-wing Jews, Catholics, etc. Those Jews (and likely those Catholics, etc.), however, simply don't know enough about right-wing evangelical Protestantism to know how anti-Catholic/anti-Semitic the code really is ... by the time they even get to know the right-wing evangelicals, they are so far gone into the kool-aid bowl, they have lost any objectivity.
For example, right-wing Jews hear the fundie talk about a strong Israel -- and think "wow - goyim who actually support Israel, after seeing so much criticism of Israel based presumably on lingering anti-Semitic double standards, this is refreshing ... these people must not be that bad" --, drink the kool-aid and never realize that the fundie "support" of Israel has nothing to do with having a long-term stable Israel and everything to do with bringing on an Armegeddon in which the fundies believe we Jews will get our asses killed.
I just wish right-wing Jews would realize how anti-Semitic their "friends" really are.
He can take his "Mandate" & shove it!
I just hope Bush's constituency (i.e. the Religious Right) don't confuse "Man date" with "Mandate", or the Preznut would have some 'splaining to do.
A question that matters more is: What input,if any, does 48 percent of the country get in deciding where to go, or how to get there.
So-called Liberal Reporter
None. You heard the Chimperor - 51 percent is a "clear mandate". The other half of the country can just go fuck themselves.
Read Newsweek, and you'll be happy you didn't win. Teresa is scary! Laura is sweet. - Number One Troll
I just don't get this.
I know many women, including my mother, who just cannot stand THK (interestingly, I think most men I know think she's swell if suspiciously rough around the edges for someone rich enough that she ought to have cultivated more edelkeit by now -- btw, that is what bothers me the most about GWB and his supporters: I was raised that if you are rich and not edel but rather grauber, you are the lowest of the low ... and yet people would rather have the "common" (read grauber) GWB as Pres. that the at least somewhat edel Kerry? They claim "values voters" vote for Bush? Well, these voters don't have the values I was taught by my mother!).
On the other hand, I know many men, including myself (do I really know myself, though ? ), who just cannot stand Laura's "Stepford Wife" demeaner.
Is this some sort of victory of feminism that we men prefer a strong woman to an obsequeous one? And what kind of envy causes so many women to react so negatively to THK?
Although I can clearly see that the results of this election may have been "cooked", the dictonary defines mandate as the results of an election, so under the strict denotation, in fact, for the first time, Bush does have a mandate.
Vicki:
It would not surprise me in the least. Until they change the law (and it will happen, there is already a bill in the hopper), churches can't endorse a candidate. They will be able to next time.
Millions belong to "non-denominational" churches. That will change to "Republican" churches. Some may even take the step of enshring Bush as some kind of saint or holy man. No, I'm not kidding.
The sunny side of this equation is that by tying their fate to the GOP, if the GOP declines (it will, it just will take a long time, nothing lasts forever), membership in these churches will decline as well.
One thing that past examples prove is that when the government forces you to believe something, or there is a state religion, there is no interest in it without compulsion. France and Italy, or the sorry state of the Church of England, for example.
And Steve Kyle is right, if Bush couldn't get his shit passed with an 80% approval rating and both houses of Congress, he will still have a difficult time now with a 51% approval rating and a large portion of his party that believes he will never do what he promised to do on Abortion and Social Security.
That's why the GOP is so hot to pack the courts, they don't really believe that their coalition is a permanent one. That is why they try to grow the Fundies rather than bring in new groups.
The other 49% of the country is just a "focus group" no need to listen to them.
To serve all Americans.
To serve man.
It's a cookbook! - goddess of the nigh
LOL...thanks.
You know, during the crusades there was rampant cannibalism. The the barefoot, 700 club wielding "christians' burned and ate muslims
in the holy land.
Look for the The Crusader's Cookbook
under Bush's arm next time he walks out of a press conference.
-
I come Bush gets a man date and I don't?
"For example, right-wing Jews hear the fundie talk about a strong Israel -- and think "wow - goyim who actually support Israel, after seeing so much criticism of Israel based presumably on lingering anti-Semitic double standards, this is refreshing ... "these people must not be that bad"
Orthodox Jews think the theology of the Fundies is pure bullshit, therefore there is nothing to lose by using their support.
They get a strong Israel, among other things, and they know the Rapture is fake and they won't be cast by Jesus into a lake of fire. Who cares what the crazy goyim think? They can wait for Jesus forever. They know about it, but just don't care, just like you probably don't think Allah rewards martyrs with virgins and dates at a heavenly oasis, but don't care as long as someone isn't blowing themselves up about it.
Rightist Catholics also think Fundie theology is fake. They know they aren't going to hell, their own theology is very fine, thanks. But they get illegal abortion out of the deal. Again, win-win.
It's called a coalition, the same way back in the 1940's the Democrats were simultaneously the party of Urban Progressives and Southern White Racists. They shared economic interests.
It would not surprise me in the least. Until they change the law (and it will happen, there is already a bill in the hopper), churches can't endorse a candidate. They will be able to next time. - Alderaan
IMHO, the first ammendment prohibits the feds from specifically granting tax-exempt status to houses of worship. They should be taxed the same way as charitable non-profits and hence subject to the same rules regarding political endorsements.
If a charitable non-profit can endorse a candidate, well then, it is rather against the whole "freedom of speech and religion" thing to not allow a church to do so. OTOH, if a charitable non-profit is prohibited from making endorsements, than so should churches.
To have a separate legislated category for houses of worship than for other charitable institutions violates the spirit if not the letter of Congress not establishing religion.
This is a secular country, and if the fundies don't like it, they can move to Iran. But for the rest of us, religion is best served (as pointed out above) by maintaining our tradition of secularity.
I know the Rethugs love to cut off their noses to spite their faces, but they should let the rest of us live in peace without cutting off our noses too!
Orthodox Jews think the theology of the Fundies is pure bullshit, therefore there is nothing to lose by using their support.
They get a strong Israel, among other things, and they know the Rapture is fake and they won't be cast by Jesus into a lake of fire. Who cares what the crazy goyim think? They can wait for Jesus forever. They know about it, but just don't care, just like you probably don't think Allah rewards martyrs with virgins and dates at a heavenly oasis, but don't care as long as someone isn't blowing themselves up about it.
You are correct that Orthodox Jews don't care what those crazy goyim think, but you are wrong to say they actually know ... many of them don't know. Same goes for the neo-cons who are largely secular but grew up in insulated, albeit secular environments.
The problem is that the righty-tighty Jews allow the agenda of the fundies to influence their approach to the Palestinians, etc. At the very least, the agendas of extreme elements in the Jewish community get supported at the expense of more moderate elements. And these extreme agendas, which fit perfectly well with fundie thought, are bad for the long-term health of Israel. So no Jew should support those agendas.
The fact is that right-wing Jews think the fundies are tools - in both senses of the word. Indeed, I heard right-wing Jews crowing about our Iraq adventure that "look at how smart we are ... we have the U.S. fighting our war for us". Aside from the sheer Hillul Hashem of these Jews granting Hitler a postumous victory by acting in a manner that "proves" anti-Semitic cannards right, these right-tighties didn't even think ... if Saddam did have WMDs, against whom would he use them in case of a U.S. invasion? Israel, based on his past history.
These people were supporting an action that put Israel in grave danger, and they thought they were pulling one over on the goyim?
What idiots! What tools!
Right-wing Jews are so clueless ... they think they're so smart and the fundies are tools? Well, they should know that they are tools ... of the fundies and the military-industrial complex.
People like Wolfowitz and Feith who shill for the right-wing should realize they ain't doin' Israel any good by shilling for fundie inspired crusades. They should remember that during the crusades, before going off to "liberate" the Holy Land, the crusaders killed a bunch of Jews (worse than the Holocaust!). They should realize that they are merely house slaves and Uncle Toms on the plantation of the military-industrial complex ... providing an intellectual veneer for the profitable fantasies of the arms manufacturers.
Sorry, Tena, I only started to post the bit about "mandate" being an imaginary construct. When I saw your ST reference, it tickled me, and I threw in a hasty reaction. I was/am probably reading too deeply into your comparison.
I only meant to say that I share your feeling about being trapped on a ship run by a bunch of dummies. But as I dimly recall the ST episode, Geordi was indeed captured by the dummies because they wanted and needed something from him. I have no recollection of how he escaped, except a vague memory that he was able to somehow leverage his captive status to use his superior skills to his advantage and outsmart his captors.
All I meant to say was that at the moment, perhaps because I'm still in shock from the Debacle, I don't see that our Dummies need or value us, i.e. they're not asking us to fix anything or make anything go faster. Our Dummies seem content to regard us merely as fodder for assimilation or destruction. I don't see that we have a foothold, as Geordi did, in being "useful" to the dummies.
That was my "point," which admittedly doesn't take us very far. How the hell to take over the ship? Some combination of resistance and conciliation, I spoze.
Tena, Kim or Cym,
The name of the race you're referring to in the Star Trek series was called the "Pakleds".
Also, the episode is "Samaritan Snare".
Thank Google 
Hope it helps—
Rightist Catholics also think Fundie theology is fake. They know they aren't going to hell, their own theology is very fine, thanks. But they get illegal abortion out of the deal. Again, win-win.
Rightest Catholics have never voted for Democrats. Most of them are unreconstructed fascists (former RC, here, seen their works, know them well). And the majority of Catholics are pro-choice.
John Kennedy once said that the bishops are all Republicans but the nuns were Democrats and there were lots more nuns than bishops.
Boycott the NyTimes, both print and online. Read a copy at the library if you have to.
More of a mandate than Clinton had (although Hill comes close to a man date)
Mandate?
Oh, what the hell.
IT WAS A LANDSLIDE!
Speaking of, in 1972 Nixon won re-election with 60% of the popular vote to McGovern's 37%, and the American electorate gave Nixon 570 electoral votes to McGovern's 17. All this when information about Nixon's extra-Constitutional criminality was already public knowledge.
And in 1934, Germany elected their leader with 90% of the vote! Now THAT'S a MANDATE!
A friend and I were thinking, and the best way to show that this is not a mandate would be to band together, and publicly display that we are not part of the "51" - we are the "48". To that end we've put up FortyEight.org - with the idea being to take ideas for "48" logo gear (stickers, pins, buttons, caps, shirts etc), and then have someone get them made (at this point I'm way to busy to take that part on). Anyhow - if we had "48" sticker on 48% of the cars in the country, it would put the scale of the mandate into focus.
Dave
Little girlymen...
what percentage of the votes did your hero Clinton get in 1992 for his "mandate"?
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