I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Did the president go to church this morning?
Welcome back, glad you took a well-deserved rest.
I'm workng on some big stuff, hopefully will post it later this evening. And of course there'll be a new Cup O' Joe show up this evening...
Stand and fight!
Have A Nice, Hot Cup O' Joe!
Good question, stickandballguy. We ought to be asking more questions like this.
By the way, isn't there SOMETHING personally incriminating we can find out about Bush? No one's perfect... especially not this guy. Maybe we could try something besides his military record.
Okay, the main thing is that we still have the same faults in Bush that we must endlessly and unfailingly point out to all Americans. (The only difference is that, for the moment, we can't point to John Kerry as the cure for the problems Bush created. But the problems are still there.)
If they want to talk religion, then we hit them with the decent stuff of Christianity (and Buddhism, and Islam, and Judaism, and so on), like humility, and helping others, and striving after peace.
Let them talk about "faith-based" stuff, but we must point out every single one of their "hate-based" actions. Like, for example, Karl Rove speaking the indecent words this AM about a marriage amendment for a "hopeful and decent society."
Yes, the fundegelicals gave Bush the margin of victory. But a margin is NOT a majority. John Kerry's positive vote was greater by tens of millions than the negative vote for Bush.
There is plenty incriminating about Bush. The one thing that drives me nuts that he has gotten away with was flying after his DWI. You have to report those incidents when renewing your pilot's liscence. Bush's license would have come up while he was doing probation for the DWI. Either he flew without a liscence or lied about his record.
There is plenty out there just waiting to be peeled away like an onion.
Speaking of driver's liscences, I would love to see what was so bad about the one in Texas he got hidden.
Some merchant in Texas must have saved a check with Bush's old DL on it.
IMHO, contrary to CW, I do not think that this race came down to lesbians in wedding atire going down the aisle. Or saving us from the homos in the godless cities. Or godless cities, for that matter.
It is a bunch of hooey passed out by those too lazy to think or those too eager to paint the right wing as "morally superior", therefore they deserve to control the world, and they and their ill conceived tragic policies must be treated as the gold standard.
I think simply Bush defined Kerry as the worse alternative, and Kerry allowed himself to be defined, Kerry didn't fight hard enough, and he wasn't tough enough. Kerry allowed Bush to paint him as a liar about his war record, a tax and spend liberal and weak on defense. Kerry did little in tv ads (ala Jon Stewart) to dispel that notion.
Plus I think that there was just enough voter fraud to give Bush the edge in FL, his brother's kingdom.
But to say that people voted for Bush because of his moral superiority? One ad from Kerry revealing Bush's lack of church attendance would have been a nice touch.
has neil bush had any (possibly underage) asian prostitutes show up unannounced at his hotel room lately? has he given anyone VD today?
and did anyone ever find out what katherine harris' husband thought of her snuggling with another member of Congress on c-span?
does giuliani have a new mistress yet?
ahnold groping anyone? you gotta love their "all-stars." an adulterer and a groper.
The Dems salvation is in isolating the right wing churches from the mainstream churches. Those that became so prominent in the civil rights era have abdicated. They need to be reminded of their responsibility. Dems are afraid to take on the narrow minded bigots but if they would the moderates would run away from the exposed hypocrisy. How many know that Falwell flies a jet donated by Isreal or that he has taken money from the Rev Sun Yung Moon? Rove would divide and conquer. WWRD?
Enough defeatism. We can still fight. We still have power.
http://spendingliberally.org
atrios, you little freeper whore. you sold democrats out on election night.
Matt Drudge needs to be outed better. Most people don't know he's gay. He is. We need pictures.
He is the clearinghouse for the VRWC. Remember when they tried to take out Kerry with the mistress story through Drudge?
Offhand, doesn't it remind people of a different country, time when you had all these sick sadistic a-holes, who also had tons of gay sex, who spearhead a movement about the "homeland" racialism, anti homosexuality, and xenophobia combined with militarism, with a touch of the state and big business running the government?
Welcomd back Atrios. I would say I missed you, but I have been trying to get my brain adjusted to this new set of particulars.
In my other lifetime, when I am not teaching, I write. This is the beginning of my response to the particulars cited above.
Disillusionment died on a hot, still August night. It did not end with a whimper or sigh as such things often do. Nor did it end with a caress as gentle as the light winds that touched the men's cheeks that night. Rather, it was blown away with the decisiveness that can only be brought about by high explosives.
Reverend Billy Paul Thatcher looked deeply into her eyes – pale blue pools that seemed to be illuminated by an inner source. Her mascara and eye shadow, though a tad on the heavy side, had the effect of making her seem as if she were in a constant state of surprise. Her ersatz blonde hair fell in cascades about her shoulders. She was naked. In that moment, he reached an epiphany . . . again. For, in truth, Reverend Thatcher enjoyed many such moments. In his skewed view of the world, he saw himself and his people as being the rightful rulers of the mass of sinners and disciples of the Dark Lord. In this moment, he understood, again, that his world: the world fabricated out of the dross of dreams, was the only proper reality. He saw the world as it was supposed to be: their man had just won re-election to the Presidency, the war against the infidels – the true devils – was progressing, the niggers and faggots would not be receiving anything from this government. Those evil money grubbing, corrupt liberals were finally getting their due. Glancing at her nakedness and her eyes that told of her excitement of being able to pleasure him, he knew that his reward was not only in heaven: but in the temporal world as well. He was pleased beyond all measure that his needs were being illicitly met once more. Not that he would have understood the vile nature of his domination: for he perceived such perquisites as meet and just.
the battle is not only in the political arena, or rather the politics of values will be fought in other arenas as well.
Juan Cole scroll down to propaganda against the professor.
I need not remind anyone that this is a slippery slope, for the same pressures could be applied to faculty who have been critical of US foreign policy, in Iraq for example, on the grounds that such critiques are unpatriotic.
Surely we all agree that while the university can hardly defend any one political position on any current question, it must defend the need for debate and critical consideration of all such questions, whether in public fora or in the classroom. Anything less would be the beginning of the death of academic freedom."
Joseph Massad
what is it they say? something about going after the gays and the intellectuals first. the battle is on. primitivism vs enlightenment.
Yeah, I think at least 2 years, more likely 3. But 3 years is hardly an eternity. I've been around 50 years longer than 3 and I'm not going anywhere. The nice thing about being 53 in this situation is that every year goes by a little faster than the one before.
Over at Kos, it is called "Politcal Suicide" to discuss or pursue a "fraud" angle...
That is rich, given what occured in NYC yesterday...
Sure hope there is no moratorium on the topic here-
Here is a rundown, in no particular order, of what I have read and absorbed...
- 1ne -
- 2wo -
- 3ree -
- 4our -
- 5ive -
- 6ix -
- 7even -
- 8ight -
- 9ine -
- 10en -
- 11leven -
- 12welve -
Make so mistake, I don't think it is the left blogosphere that should push this, just link, discuss and report... It will take carefully laid traps by plan B folks in legal circles, and those traps must snare by next Friday, or this thing is a done deal...
Tena, sister. You and I are the same age. And Libras...
*
We all need to think bigger. It's not enough to out Matt Drudge. It's not about individuals. It's about a press which is no longer free. We need to take on the corporate-controlled media directly, and make it serve the public interest again. If the 50,000,000 Americans who voted against Bush backed up their vote by coordinating and directing their consumer spending, the effects would be impossible to ignore.
http://spendingliberally.org
Welcome back, A, though I wish it hadn't been a weekend (about the only time I have these days to read and post). You were missed!
I actually think letting them completely redistribute the tax burden with some zany value added or flat tax law might be our best bet. Where we are going to have to fight to the death is over Social Security and court appointments. The tax thing can be changed rather easily; neither the courts nor social security would easily recover from the type of damage Bush has in mind.
I think we have to face the fact that quite a few of those who voted for Bush are the fools of which Ben Franklin referred to, who will attend the dear school of experience because they can learn in no other. The tax thing might be just the ticket - a few years of pain to teach the lesson of a lifetime.
We have to accept at some level that we have virtually no power. That being the case, we need to make the Republicans own 100% of the disaster they are about to create and save our energies for the really big battles. I think just flat out abstention from voting on most issues would be best, with the message always being that the GOP won't work with the representatives who represent almost half of the citizens, and an explanation that an abstention has the same effect as a "no" vote. No need to ask our guys to volunteer for daily pummellings on rightwing radio and in the next campaign. And what will Rush rant about every day?
For those who want their representatives to "represent them", what difference does it make whether they vote no or not at all when they have no power? Make the few GOP "moderates" take the heat for leading the opposition on the nuttiest proposals. Help the split in the party grow wider. We understood why the Texas Dems fled the state to try to thwart redistricting; surely we could get behind the Democrats in Congress if they adopt similar tactics of resistance.
Atrios,
I don't disagree with your point that we can fight the war on the values battleground, but we have to do it through positively framing ours, not through trying to denigrate theirs. In fact, I disagree with you when you say Our side is going to have to get used to the fact that "opposition" does not mean "obstruction." If obstruction is what is necessary to support strong progressive values against harmful Republican policies, then so be it.
Shouldn't ya'll be packing for the big move to Canada? Bye, Bye.
Here's what one of you left steaming on another blog a few days ago.
You've ripped the head off the Democrat beast. Now there seems to be a little too much joy in pissing down his neck. What's next? A good skull fucking?
Do you find that offensive? Or is it just me?
Jenny from the Blog - Sisters is right. (you, me and Susan Sarandon, among others, though Susan is a few years older than we are.)
"If "values" are the new battleground, which I mostly doubt, then I say bring it on..."
We did not lose because of values, regardless of what people told exit pollsters. We lost because we ran a political campaign, while the Republicans ran a marketing campaign. Bush was sold like toothpaste, with "values" and "leadership" in place of "whiter teeth" and "fresher breath." We started with someone who would make a good president. They started with a campaign strategy -- or marketing plan, to sustain the metaphor -- and plugged a candidate into it. You've got to admit, Bush is a great candidate, policies and the well-being of most living things aside.
So we need to learn better marketing. We need to make our truth as snappy and easy to remember as their lies. (Oddly enough, I think the guy who came closest to that in the primaries was Al Sharpton.)
Everyone reading and posting here knows that the majority of the Republican leadership doesn't give two shits about "values." And the people who think they do are in for a very rude awakening pretty soon. At some point the GOP is going to have to choose between disappointing their followers who have "values," or disappointing their followers who have "money."
Gosh, I wonder what their choice will be....
"Over at Kos, it is called "Politcal Suicide" to discuss or pursue a "fraud" angle..."
Jeez. Actually I shouldn't say that, since obviously He didn't fear political suicide.
Churchwatch.org would be nice. Non-partisan, evangelical site monitoring presidential church visits. "Let us pray that the president attend church this summer."
"42 days since the last visit."
PounD that definition home over the next two years and beyond; Liberal = generous and concerned. Conservative = selfish and callous. REPEAT IT AGAIN.
The Democrats got their mojo back when they started to fight back and articulate their opposition to Bushco. That is what the "other side" is suppsoe to do...BE THE OTHER SIDE.
Democrats need to stand up and make a stand...not "play for the middle"...or "lean back left"...both play in to the GOP talking points.
Be Democrats.
There is more than one way to take a break, and my way is edible.
Since I had time to google around this weekend I looked up Dominionism. I don't know if you all have discussed this before but read this and then see if you can sleep tonight.
How Pat Robertson has taken over!
What is particularly eerie is the statement towards the end that the Declaration is more like the Articles of Incorporation and the Constitution is analogous to a corporation's bylaws thus subject to change.
If i embedded incorrectly, the article can also be found in the url field.
Welcome back Atrios from your well deserved mini-vacation. We all need them sometime, and I do believe that maintaining this cite can actually be hard work. Especially after the week all just lived through. And it aint over yet.
Gore/Kerry 2008!
Okay, maybe not a good idea, but talk about a Rocky movie come to life. Or perhaps a Jacobian tale of revenge!
Eye of the Tiger guys, Eye of the Tiger!
Rove's evangelical base is very vunerable on the wage question. Wages have fallen and continue to fall. Liberals need to be there screaming for better wages, raising minimum wage, health care etc. The Repubs are never going to beat us on that issue. I know it didn't sell in 2004 because either 1. Rove has everyone scared of the boogyman 2. Rove has everyone scared of gays 3. We were not loud enough on these issues and not liberal enough to take our stance. Rove and his bunch are rich corporate capitalists. They are just using the morals issue to capture a base of support. There is no support of their economic ideas amoung their base. We need to make sure people understand that.
"I'm not holding my breath, but the media needs to reevaluate its role when we have entrenched single-party rule. More on this later."
Although it's fine to use ANY rhetorical weapon available (remember the repugs and term limits? heh.), I hope for nothing more than entrenched democratic rule! But hypocracy shouldn't scare us if nobody notices, I guess.
There won't be a flat tax. Without the current loopholes built in, which is what the flat tax is about, no loopholes, higher income individuals will end up paying higher taxes. They won't tolerate that. So, there's not gonna be a flat tax. Dems should not oppose it, and let the Repubs shoot themselves in the foot with it.
Pesky - I may have to hunt you down and kill you for even reminding me of that insipid tune.
daudder - I'm not proposing a "play for the middle" but rather a lesson to those who can't learn any other way in what complete GOP dominance looks like. Voting no on everything would just hand them ammo for painting Dems as partisan obstructionists. Abstentions on principle would give them a lot less to bitch about, plus make it clear that they did all the damage themselves. A "no" vote vs. an abstention is symbolic only, since both count as "no" votes.
If "values" are the new battleground, which I mostly doubt, then I say bring it on, Larry Flynt-style. Let the scarlet A's be handed out, the closet doors swung open, and weekly church attendance records of members of congress and the administration be compiled. If sinning godless heathens are the problem, then let's be clear about who the sinning godless heathens are.
This would backfire for sure. The fundies are quite comfortable in thier hypocracy, and pointing it out would cause a backlash, and be seen/written off as crass political meaness.
They don't claim to be perfect, (we are all sinners and one sin is as bad as another and why would you even need Jesus if we could live a perfect life, original sin not witstanding). They are quite aware of divorces, cheating ect that go on in their midst, but there are things you don't bring up in polite company, at least in public. And they have no problem with the double standard.
Dick Cheney can say Fuck You on the Senate floor, and it just shows what a 'man he is', and Theresa Kerrey says Shove It and shes a shrew. (not the best example).
They see themselves as 'good' because they are Christians, not because of thier actions (works don't get you into heaven, Faith does. The 'right' faith).
.
Oh, for Christ's sake. Looking for something incriminating about Bush to bring him down is like looking for sand on a beach. All there is is incriminating. But no one cares.
When you find the picture of him fellating Cheney, you let me know. Otherwise, fuggedaboutit.
Welcome back Atrios, I hope you had a well deserved rest and that you're back, ready to fight again. I agree that we need to be "oppositionists" when necessary, but the Democrats in Congress also need to show their constituents once and for all, that they ARE the party of the people, the party of fiscal responsibility.
A friend in another forum mentioned this, and I think it may be a start. Recall in the second debate when Senator Kerry mentioned that only three people in the room would be affected by his "tax increase", himself, the Chimp and Scheiffer. Well, let's take it a step further. I propose that the Democrats in Congress refuse the tax cut they received from the Chimp's Chenron cuts. In addition, I propose that they refuse their health and life insurance, offering to pay for their policies out of their own pockets. And finally, for God's sake, the Democrats are going to have to stop running away from the liberal/progressive label as if it's some kind of curse.
In the days since I quit crying and started thinking again, I have decided, like Atrios and many, if not most, others - trying to fight from the "middle" is a monumental mistake. In the first place, the middle doesn't exist anymore.
We are who we are. We should be what we are and proud of it. I admit that I was one who thought we should try to court the "middle." I was wrong.
"Over at Kos, it is called "Politcal Suicide" to discuss or pursue a "fraud" angle..."
I guess you have not read Kos since Nov 2.
This is under recommended diaries on his home page
Evidence Mounts That The Vote Was Hacked
gotta fight gop cultural populism by countering it with economic populism.
point out how the right exploits "values" to manipulate people in order to rip them off economically. nothing pisses people off more than to realize that they've been had.
and kerry who sought to ensure corporate insterests by telling them he wasn't a "redistributionist democrat" - was no economic populist. we needed a nominee who doesn't waver about being a champion for the working class.
yes, this is what the "what's the matter with kansas?" guy is saying, but this is also what dean was saying before that book came out. remind people they can rail about abortion all they want, that's not going to create more jobs.
i'll concede one point for team kerry for their emphasis on bush outsourcing, this is a message we can build on and can be repetive about, and should pay off dividends in '06 when people can see how we've lost even more jobs to china.
you can also undercut bush's "culture of life" message by pointing out how abortions have increased under his rule.
The vote was hacked. Sure. But not 3.5 million worth.
And if it was? Someone will talk. One person can't steal 3.5 million votes.
For now, I wouldn't spend too much energy on it.
My 2 cents, only.
Tena - I agree that trying to fight from the "middle" is a mistake, but didn't see it quite that much this go around as in 2000.
There's an interesting piece up at Salon about so-called "values voters". I don't really buy the values voter stuff, but this guy makes a good point somewhat inadvertently in his piece. And it is this: this election was tipped by emotion, not logic or reason. Big DOH, right? Well, maybe not...because religious faith is not a product of logic or reason; it is entirely of the realm of emotion.
Think about the campaign we just ran - it was tailored entirely to appeal to logic and reason. But as we know, a lot of these people cannot be reached that way. We have to reach them on the level of emotion (also goes to explain the "angry conservative" stuff too, eh?). And we CAN do that in a way that's honest and doesn't require us to wage theological battles with them.
I feel a lot more hopeful after realizing this.
consumption based tax, and the Democrats are unable to convince the vast majority of voters that this will in fact constitute a tax increase for them, then all is hopeless.
isn't the new hike on medicare premium actually another form of a tax increase?
Going forward, the only way for the Democrats to pick up substantial seats in 2006 is a) if everything is a disaster (possible, but not something I hope for) or b) they manage to convey to voters how they are different than Republicans. This difference exists, but rhetorically the Democrats have been more interested in blurring the lines than making them clear. Clear differences do not always mean extreme differences - this is not about lurching left or right or whatever, it's just about making the differences clear in an easy to understand fashion.
We're not talking about rocket science, here. The Democrats' mission is this simple: find a set of issues that the Republicans can't co-opt. What them's in the ad biz used to call a "unique selling proposition."
Now, if I could just remember what I did with that Holy Grail I got at the flea market....
Think Bush was seen more as a figurehead for lack of change, rather than moral authority. People don't like his twins at all. But things are so bad that change can only be worse, and above all, it's not controllable. You can control the local races.
This may be some of the thinking.
Plus I think we really did win Florida. We just haven't figured out how they did it yet, and may never.
Need strong new candidates who can both connect and inspire. Dems need to hire experienced marketing people to hone the message down to the equivalent of a Mountain Dew ad. And then hammer it in, starting today.
If Bush had lost, would the right be flagellating themselves? Hell, no. They'd be calling it a win, and getting us to believe it.
Atrios, glad you're back. Don't scare us like that.
If, as news reports claim, Chenron is pushing for some version of a falt income tax, or consumption based tax, and the Democrats are unable to convince the vast majority of voters that this will in fact constitute a tax increase for them, then all is hopeless.
The last three governors of Tennessee (two Democrats and a Republican) have each come out for a state income tax (currently, state government is largely funded by a sales tax of about 8.5%). Apparently, the masses simply cannot deal with the concept of progressive taxation, and every time the legislature considers it, a peasant uprising ensues on Capitol Hill in Nashville. Downtown is brought to a standstill, and traffic is snarled for miles. Eventually, the legislature caves, and the crowd goes home thinking they've accomplished something.
If we're going to regain credibility on economic issues, we're going to have to do better than Kerry did in claiming that most of Bush's tax cut went to the rich, and then retreating to the real numbers when he was called on it by the factcheckers.
Tena and Jena -- Libra, too, but I've got 3 years on both of you. Does everyone enjoy their birth sign/season like Libras do?
As far as the election goes, Crooked Timber links to some great cartograms of the results by some folks at U of Michigan that everyone should check out. We're being shown maps of the election results that show that big swath of "heartland" red with blue along the perimeters, but the vote distribution is much more complex. It's important that we see the simplistic depiction of the election for what it is: an effort to discourage the opposition and promoting a Republican bandwagon effect.
You have to take a circuitous route to get to the cartograms, but start by clicking my url to reach Crooked Timber, then click "electoral map" in the post, and from there click "page with these pictures and more about our results" to see the maps.
The vote was hacked. Sure. But not 3.5 million worth.
We are not looking for 3.5 million, only 135,000 in Ohio. They had an undervote (votes that were not counted due to machine issues) IIRC of around 200k.
I dunno, Dr. Pedant.
Do I think that investigating vote fraud this time around
Can.
Overturn.
the Election?
No.
I do think the irregularities need to be documented, accumulated, and examined.
If they are, we shall know what to do next.
At the very least, it would make ammunition for reforming voting.
Hey, you stole ALL those from me!
Kidding. Welcome back. 
Dr. Pedant - here's how I feel about the election and the fraud - proving it will not change the outcome and I don't expect it to. However, I think it is very important for the country and the future of what's left of democracy to make a case for what happened. There is not one good thing to be had by letting it just lie there and never addressed. It happened. It is the truth. The truth is damned important, no matter what the truth is.
I'm all for outing these jerks.
Larry Flynt, please report for duty!!
Let's out members of the press who belong to evangelical churches who have hidden agendas.
And the links above are just chilling. Karen Hughes told Bush he'd lost the election? Fuck- theses guys will stop at nothing.
As for a consumption based tax, we need to fight that tooth and nail. Because believe me, that will just fuck the other guy, and once it's in place it will be impossible to dislodge it.
chris/tx
What do you think will happen if at this point Kerry is declared the winner in Ohio (and hence the electoral winner), but lost in total votes? I don't even want to think about it.
Wile, Tena,
Points taken.
wasn't it estimated that around 4 to 6 million votes were "lost" in 2000? the question is how many were intentional?
p.s. Somehow lost part of my rant. Tena, I'm 52, and am not about to sit in a corner and whine. Will not give up blogging, will not give up activism. We have to get it off the internet and out there, though. I spent *a lot* of time canvassing door-to-door. Dems did surprisingly well in local races even if Bush won their ward on the national side. We must learn from this.
If Bush had lost, would the right be flagellating themselves? Hell, no. They'd be calling it a win, and getting us to believe it.
Or screaming 24/7 about how it was stolen by Democrats.
And if it had been Kerry with 51% and Bush with 48%, would they be saying, "Well, yes, President-elect Kerry has a broad nationwide mandate"?
Hell, no. The RNC talking points would be how he only has a narrow margin of victory.
Stolen from somewhere (but I don't remember where):
'People aren't entirely prepared to admit it, but there really is an underclass of very unhappy white people in the United States who are still fighting the Vietnam War, the civil rights movement, and the Civil War. The dissatisfaction in their lives is caused by the powerlessness they feel in the face of the fact that they fall further behind with each generation. The Republicans manage these people with great skill, and use the full force of the media to direct all their anger and hatred to liberalism. The fact that many of them are evangelical Christians is more a symptom of the same malaise that it is the cause of their hatreds. Nutty religion is their opium. While many of them are terribly misinformed and stupid, I don't think it is entirely fair to say that they misunderstand their class interests. They have come to the conclusion that they are going to be screwed regardless of which party is in power, and they prefer to be screwed by a group that doesn't appear to hold them in contempt. Indeed, you get the impression that their hatred is so great that they are taunting the liberal attempts at policy solutions to their problems, almost saying we hate your contempt for us so much we'll prove it by voting against our own interests.'
Dr. Pedant, I disagree- they didn't need to steal 3.5 milllion, they only need to hack one large state.
Florida.
The idea that will should just let it go while these assholes lay waste to the country is unbelievable to me. The election isn't final until it's certified.
If Bush won fair and square that would be one thing, but to let him get away with stealing it turns my stomach. All you have to do is look at those figures from Florida to know something is freaking rotten in Florida. Mass defections by Florida Democrats? and only in the optical scan precincts? I don't believe it.
crossposted at First-Draft
first off, go here to get cheered up (link via Tbogg)
Second: it's looking more and more likely that the rethugs couldn't be happy with a narrow margin and got greedy in FL. they've (so far correctly) assumed that if they had a big enough margin in FL and in the popular vote that they could spin it as a mandate. trying to negate the need for an automatic recount in FL if within a .5% margin they rigged/hacked the tabulator to add thousands of extra votes per county in favor of aWol. unless Dixie county has an unusually high number of conjoined twins, spirits returning for Dia de los Muertos, people suffering from schizophrenia and/or sports teams used to giving 128% there was some kind of vote fraud going on there. several other counties in FL have shown more presidential votes than voters casting a ballot. Blackboxvoting.org is doing a massive FOIA to get info, I'm hoping they've filed on the entire State of FL, but someone needs to file a protest and calls for a recount pronto, before the deadline.
I'm hoping there are enough people high enough up in the K/E campaign that were expecting this level of fraud and are working on fighting it undercover.
regardless we need to keep our spirits up and fighting the good fight. they snuck up on us from behind with the blackjack, but we can't give up the fight. spread the word that there was no problem with the vote, the longer the meme stay out there that everthing went OK, the sooner it becomes CW that we lost.
I don't like losing a fair fight, but won't stand to lose a rigged one
Anyway, who has legal standing to ask for a recount in those florida precincts?
These are places where there are actual ballots. They could be recounted.
flg,
You might be right. It *is* a bit hard to believe Bush's margin in FL, this time around. Especially considering he should have lost votes among Jews and Cubans.
Granted that the fillibuster should not be the approach of first resort, neither should the necessity of its use be underestimated. I speak here of court appointments. There is a world of difference between "having clear responsibility exist for the consequences of legislation" and the consequences of court appointments spanning a generation or more and judicially ratifying bad legislation.
d
Dr. Pedant - My understanding is in Ohio they are only going to count the absentee, and not look at the undervote. But things could change (doubtfully).
I find it interesting so many people are bringing up the overall vote, when Gore won the popular vote last time. I just don't see what the popular vote has to do with anything other than a "moral victory" when everyone knows the only thing that matters is the electoral college.
of course there is something on bush. he is a closet homosexual, as are a lot of these screaming fundies. that is why they cling to such strict religious dogma. they have no self control. just google george bush and victor ashe(google victor ashe for a pic). this is his openly gay college roomate and fellow cheerleader. he was mayor of knoxville, tn, until he was caught soliciting in a public restroom, and then bush shipped him off to poland as ambassador. don't you think it odd that bush always says remember poland, what about poland on his stump speeches and during the debates??? he always seems to remember the obscure and hard (for bush) to pronounce name of poland's leader. we have larger allies like australia, italy, and spain(before they withdrew), why does he not mention them??? he fixates on poland. maybe he hopes his boyfriend will be watching, and that he is thinking of him.
My 2cents:
1- I'm with Dr. Pendant on the vote. There may be fraud, but it will be drowned out by errors favoring both sides, and you know how well our media handles that... I think it might be better to actually revel a little *in* a large vote difference. You get two things going - the same "the world's against us" in the trenches mood that is so expertly manipulated to mobilize Stupid White Men, and you get an "Rocky gets off the mat" story for the media.
2- Yeah, let's go ahead and let them fuck up everything fiscal. Idiotic tax and spend programs - go right ahead. Demos vote against it on party line, tell the media what was wrong with it if they even bother to ask, but basically say "You own it, 'Thugs." The stupidest thing the Dems ever did was stuff like the $300 tax rebate.
chris/tx,
We're not dealing with rational people here. We're dealing with Republicans. If today it was announced that Kerry had won the electoral college while losing the popular vote, there would be Trouble. It would be the end of Democracy, As We Know It. Goodbye America, hello Yugoslavia.
Don't know about you, but I'm not ready for that. Call me a coward.
Better to hope for a scenario where Kerry was cheated out of both the electoral and the popular vote.
figures so Dixie County reference makes sense
Dixie County, with 4,988 registered voters, 77.5% of them Democrats and a mere 15% registered as Republicans, only 1,959 people voted for Kerry, but 4,433 voted for Bush.
"BOO!"
Osama bin Laden, Friday, October 30, 2004.
The Heavengelicals think they did it, and they're gonna be a pain in the ass about it. But the "Morality uber alles" crowd voted in numbers similar to 2000, so where did the victory margin come from? The high turnout should have favored Democrats, but didn't, so where's the beef?
"BOO!"
It was the Terrorism, stupid! And all OBL had to do was pop his head out of his prairie dog hole, say damn near anything he wanted, hell, maybe even recite falafel recipes, and pop back down again. Hereabouts, we all thought that would be a plus for our side; reminding everyone of Bush's failure to catch the #1 bad guy. Nope. We got Rove-a-doped but good. Kerry couldn't fight the old "Democrats are soft on Communism/defense/terrorism/whatever", and Rove sewed enough seeds of doubt about his "War Hero" status to tilt the table Bush's way. I was talking to a 72 year old Vet today--a Democrat--who said Kerry lost the Veterans because of his antiwar activities of the '70s, pure and simple. Maybe he's right, maybe not, but mud does stick, and Rove knows what kind to fling.
"BOO!"
was all it took.
on the election:
bizarrely enough, we outspent the Republicans and still lost. More money is not the answer.
we could solve both the obscenity of both multibillion-dollar campaigns and vote fraud with a single stroke: lobby your state legislature to enact whatever legislation is required to select 2008 presidential electors in the legislature. you're not actually voting for a president anyway, why not quit pretending and let your legislator do it for you?
OT
Glad you're well, A., and back again.
To those whom I promised to get in touch with last Thursday night concerning planning mass nonviolent actions, please check your email.
If I somehow missed you, let me know.
Setting up an email account with sufficient security features was easy enough. Unfortunately, the mail server I chose WAS DOWN for almost two days, starting even before I set up the account, but I didn't know it!The account was showing the mails as having been sent (but they were just sitting in the queue waiting for the engineers to fix the problem). I snarled politely at the customer service folks, threatening to close the account I just opened.
They said this sort of problem happens no more than once or twice a year. We'll see. If the problem continues, I'll get a different account and let everyone know.
Welcome back.
I have been thinking about all of the things in Bush's agenda. Let 'em have it all. We have no voice, no seat at the table. Fight for what we believe in, but be realistic about it: we don't have the votes.
Be ready to say:
Goodbye pristine Alaska;
Goodbye moderate Supreme Court;
Goodbye moderation altogether;
Goodbye Social Security;
Goodbye Medicare;
Goodbye affordable healthcare;
Goodbye manufacturing sector (Oh, yeah, FUCK YOU blue collar workers, and thanks for your moral values! haha);
Goodbye peace;
Also prepare yourself to love:
Eating dog food in your old age, because your safety net, which saved the country, is about to be cut all the way through;
News reporting from the killing fields, like I used to see as a boy in 1970;
Paying a higher, non tax-deductible rate for your healthcare insurance... and higher deductibles;
A "Conservative" Supreme Court that injects itself and government into your lives like you've never thought possible.
The continued race to the bottom in wages and jobs (Oh yeah, thanks blue collar, unemployed workers who voted GOP!);
And be ready to hold the GOP accountable for it all.
I find it interesting so many people are bringing up the overall vote, when Gore won the popular vote last time.
Rethugs stress whatever benefits them at the moment.
In 2000, before the election, they thought they might take the popular vote but lose the electoral, so they were gearing up to fight that.
When they lost the popular vote nationwide, they geared up to fight for Florida to get the electoral vote.
In 2000, they were against recounts. If there were an election in which they needed to gain votes against a winning Democrat, they'd be all for them.
They are remarkably untroubled by any sense of consistency.
Except the consistency of having Republicans win, by hook or by crook.
Let me say this about local races - talk about schizophrenic - We elected an out lesbian Democrat as sheriff of Dallas county on the 2d.
what the fuck?
I've always had this strange impression that the Democrats just aren't be advised by people with a firm grasp on reality themselves. They seem more like Hollywood(jews according to the neocons(jews to the cons)) scriptwriters.
What they need are people who don't look at advising candidates as a business.
I also have to wonder how many 'commoners' they had working for them? Is all they have are deluded elitists with ideals and not practical ideas, they will lose everytime.
MYOB'
.
I don't understand why so many people want to pretend that this election wasn't stolen. Sure, YOU can ignore the truth, but come election time there are going to be a whole lot of liberals who ignore the Dems and vote for Nader, if they bother to vote at all. How the hell do you think you're going to GOTV next time when everyone knows the machines are rigged and that the Dems collectively buried their heads in the sand? I'd really like to know the answer to that question.
I wonder what is really going on here - are the people who are in denial just embarassed that they ignored the Diebold situation back when we still had a chance to do something about it? Do you really think that Rove wouldn't stoop that low? Is this just a gathering place for some weird cult, where your only function is to raise funds for a doomed party, regardless of the fact that they failed you in the biggest way possible?
Deal with Diebold now, or deal with it two years from now after we've had another election stolen from us. Bev needs funds, I'm sending her a check.
regardless we need to keep our spirits up and fighting the good fight. they snuck up on us from behind with the blackjack, but we can't give up the fight. spread the word that there was no problem with the vote, the longer the meme stay out there that everthing went OK, the sooner it becomes CW that we lost.
ack, channeling the NYT there, should be: spread the word that there was a problem with the vote, the longer the meme stay out there that everthing went OK, the sooner it becomes CW that we lost.
For heaven's sake, let's not pin our hopes on proof of some illegality or moral turpitude that may or may not be there.
We must define and promulgate our fundamental principles in such a way that the majority sees them as in their best interests. And, yes, we can in our writing and speaking, define far rightists in such a way that characterizes them in the worst possible light. This does not include slander or ad hominem attacks or such like. This would only backfire. We must be honest and forthright in our characterizations.
We must never again let the conservatives define candidates and issues in any way that goes unanswered and this must be done in such a way that reframes the issue in ways that clearly point out the correctness of the progressive position.
We must veer no further to right and, in fact, reclaim many positions further to the left, positions that have always been correct but that have been abandoned in the hope of making them more palatable. By allowing our representatives to veer to the right, we have in fact allowed everyone to believe that we no longer view our positions as correct. This slow but ultimately disastrous seepage must end.
We must stick together. We have to make some compromises among ourselves to be able to have a common ground that we can push, push, push.
We must be relentless. We cannot let ourselves let up or be discouraged. Give no quarter. There will be defeats in our future. There will also be victories upon which we may continue to build a bright, humane, progressive future.
Read and reread George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant"!
Do it now!
Preznit giv me turkee - Yeppers, and the other thing this has the potential to do (voter fraud proof, depending on how it goes,) is to dispel this "mandate" idea.
Of course, if it turned out Kerry lost popular votes in a big way, it would have the opposite effect. Problem for me is that I am a strong believer that the truth is always best, no matter what the truth is.
I happen to believe that that is the only way to live. One can't always be sure what the truth is, and I realize that. It's an imperfect universe, to say the least. But that doesn't mean that it is a good thing to ignore or denigrate the truth insofar as it is possible to know it.
I've seen a lot of suggestions that Democrats need to reach out to "value" voters.
Can someone explain how those of us who don't believe in the invisible man in the sky are supposed to do this? I have absolutely no common ground with evangelicals and wouldn't know where to begin.
Dr pendant says the vote was hacked but not 3 1/2 M.... should hacking of vote be investigated?.... people charged? or just cause it cant be (in the good drs mind 3 1/2 M) we just let it slide .... huh
IF SEVERAL MILLION PEOPLE SHOW UP AT THE CAPITOL FOR JR'S JAN RESWEARING
AND MAKE ENOUGH NOISE WITHOUT ANY
VIOLENCE OR LAW BREAKING JUST NOISE
LOUD ENOUGH TO DROWN OUT THE PA SYSTEM
AND SHOW THE WORLD OUR DISPLEASURE WITH THE RESULTS OF THIS STOLEN ELECTION WE WILL MAKE A STATEMENT THAT
CANNOT BE IGNORED AND WILL PUT THE REAL OPINION OF AMERICA ON THE FRONT PAGES OF THE WORLD'S NEWS.
THE EGGING OF JR'S LIMO IN 2000 WAS NEWS TO MOST OF THE PUBLIC. COME TO WASHINGTON PEACEFULLY AND BRING NOISE MAKERS MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE...
Tena | Email | Homepage | 11.07.04 - 5:47 pm
Every word.
One of the first things we're going to have to do -- and how could anyone conscientiously oppose it? -- is to reform the voting system, take it out of private hands and make it transparent and something we all can trust. If a bank can account for every penny, this country can account for every vote. My vote is as important as my money.
It's going to be more difficult to get people to knock themselves out working on campaigns if they even suspect that a few keyboard strokes can throw an election one way or the other.
How can anyone on the other side argue that having our voting system privatized is a good idea? At that point we ask them what they're afraid of, what they've got to hide. If they're afraid of an election that's fair beyond any doubt, what does that screech, and LOUDLY, about them?
Dr. Pedant - I believe the exact opposite of what you are saying about the situation with the election, but that may mean I need to think about it more.
Rather than it being the end of democracy as we know it if the results should be different when all the votes are counted, I feel that if election fraud is not uncovered where it existed this time we will never have another fair election in this country. We've had 1 rigged election for sure. We may have just gone through another. I think the country needs to know, no matter what the outcome. But I guess I'll think about what you are saying a little longer.
I need to listen more.
On 'opposition':
It might be time for the Dems to put in place a quasi-parliamentary 'shadow' team for the next two years, giving House and Senate committee members a brief to serve as attack dogs against not just their legislative opponents, but the executive branch as well. And I don't want this to be an ad hoc arrangement. I want it to be set in stone.
I put my info in the wrong field in my first post in this thread. It's correct now.
If you expected mail from me after Thursday night's discussion, check you inbox. The server I'm using has been fixed now, and what I sent you should be there.
if you ask me, use of cultural populism is a fig leaf they hide behind to cover voter fraud. wasn't it only 20 percent who cited "values" as their reason. that 20% would vote GOP regardless. i can't believe how freaked out we are about it. we all know there is simply that small percentage on the right we will never win over.
Tena,
I could be wrong, too. Often am. Thanks for listening.
Let me say this about local races - talk about schizophrenic - We elected an out lesbian Democrat as sheriff of Dallas county on the 2d.
It's the old 'but some of my friends are Jewish' argument. People are actually comfortable with 'sheriff-who-is-a-lesbian' in Dallas Co. It's all those other nameless, faceless lesbians that are the problem. 'Love the sinner, hate the sin' is actually just shorthand for a kind of 'beautiful' hypocrisy.
I'm not sure the republicans alone defined Kerry, they had a lot of help from the media. The RNC would put out its talking points and they would be followed up by cable and the networks. Take global test we all know what he said, he would not cede the defense of America to any institution or foreign government, it was very clear. However, the media, following the RNC's playbook would ask the troubling global test question, giving the impression to those who didn't know any better that Kerry would give a veto to the UN on any action the U.S. took. Now it the social values question, every interview asks the dems how they can possibly out jesus the president. It gives the impression that the most important issue facing the country is gay marriage when they should be asking republicans why they promote intolerance against people.
When they asked Bush about the flat tax he said"oh no-people were talking about this, but I have no plans to pass it" Anybody else remember this? Why don't the dems point this out to the media? Until the dems get really aggresive with the media, they are going to keep on getting crushed
Interesting graphics on DU.
Kerry margin: Exit Poll vs. Actual Vote in paper ballot states
Kerry margin: Exit Poll vs. Actual Vote Non-Paper Ballot States
I think we have to face the fact that quite a few of those who voted for Bush are the fools of which Ben Franklin referred to, who will attend the dear school of experience because they can learn in no other.
I agree entirely. And we must constantly remind those in the school of experience of why they're there.
Lee,
You are right on the money, my friend. Great examples.
IF SEVERAL MILLION PEOPLE SHOW UP AT THE CAPITOL FOR JR'S JAN RESWEARING
AND MAKE ENOUGH NOISE WITHOUT ANY
VIOLENCE OR LAW BREAKING JUST NOISE
LOUD ENOUGH TO DROWN OUT THE PA SYSTEM
AND SHOW THE WORLD OUR DISPLEASURE WITH THE RESULTS OF THIS STOLEN ELECTION WE WILL MAKE A STATEMENT THAT
CANNOT BE IGNORED AND WILL PUT THE REAL OPINION OF AMERICA ON THE FRONT PAGES OF THE WORLD'S NEWS.
THE EGGING OF JR'S LIMO IN 2000 WAS NEWS TO MOST OF THE PUBLIC. COME TO WASHINGTON PEACEFULLY AND BRING NOISE MAKERS MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE...
"And if it was? Someone will talk. One person can't steal 3.5 million votes."
[snip]
Hmmm. I'm of the opinion that pushing the fraud angle too hard (minus hard proof) is deadly. But this isn't exactly the way to look at it. How many voting machines are used in a national election? How many votes from each machine does it take to add up to 3.5 mil. Not a whole helluva lot.
If you've rigged the game so that you;ve got the electoral votes you need build your clear majority by adding a bogus votes in districts that are gong for Kerry---- nobody's looking for bad votes there. Since the popular vote doesn't really matter I think it's pretty easy to build a bogus majority a few votes at a time and in states and districts that ultimately go Kerry.
Writing too fast to make much sense. Sorry. And again, I don't put too much stock in the rigged election meme, and less stock in any possibility that the election can be overturned. But I don't think 3.5 million bogus votes is that hard to fake, if you know what you're doing. It's all 1 vote here, 10 votes there. When over 100,000,000 votes are in play? Shit.
Consider that in 28 years, Dems have held the White House for 12, and that doesn't count the disputed election in 2000 in which Al Gore won the popular vote and lost Florida by a mere 527 votes after the unprecedented Rethuglican chicanery of the Bush crime family.
So many would say that should really be 16 years over the last 28 - a clear majority.
The only thread pulling Bush through this election was his continued exploitation of 9/11 and his War on Terra - and even then, he could only squeak out half of the electorate.
The reality - and NEVER forget it - is that Democratic and progressive ideals are still very popular.
Rethuglicans are treading into very dangerous territory if they think the Democratic party and the will of half of the voters can just be ignored.
Pride cometh before a fall. Let 'em overreach - just like that gloating adulterous leach Newt Gingrich.
Lee,
Until a rich dem buys media to push its ideas, dems will always have the same problems.
bizarrely enough, we outspent the Republicans and still lost. More money is not the answer.
support common cause who is lobbying for public financing and addressing media price gouging during election season. and other election reforms.
SUNDAY Nov. 7 2004: We’re awaiting independent analysis on some pretty crooked-looking elections. In the mean time, here’s something to chew on.
Your local elections officials trusted a group called NASED -- the National Association of State Election Directors -- to certify that your voting system is safe.
This trust was breached.
NASED certified the systems based on the recommendation of an “Independent Testing Authority” (ITA).
“Whuuut?”
What no one told local officials was that the ITA did not test for security (and NASED didn’t seem to mind).
The ITA reports are considered so secret that even the California Secretary of State’s office had trouble getting its hands on one. The ITA refused to answer any questions about what it does. Imagine our surprise when, due to Freedom of Information requests, a couple of them showed up in our mailbox.
The most important test on the ITA report is called the “penetration analysis.” This test is supposed to tell us whether anyone can break into the system to tamper with the votes.
“Not applicable,” wrote Shawn Southworth, of Ciber Labs, the ITA that tested the Diebold GEMS central tabulator software. “Did not test.”
More here: CLICK
oh shoot, Theodoric of York, didn't check your link first, lol.
One of the first things we're going to have to do -- and how could anyone conscientiously oppose it? -
Heh. Oh, silly Silleigh, the very folks in charge of stealing have all the power. They have already proved to be beyond shame or decency.
I also have to wonder how many 'commoners' they had working for them? MYOB
that newyorker profile of shrum was disturbing to say that least. the guy was so old school, he didn't even check on whatever buzz was percolating on the net. he didn't know about drudge and the swiftboat story. scary. this campaign's out-of-touchness certainly does seem to corroborate that story.
in addition to your point about blue collar commoners, we needed guys who were up on new media.
Can someone explain how those of us who don't believe in the invisible man in the sky are supposed to do this? I have absolutely no common ground with evangelicals and wouldn't know where to begin.
beekabeck
Beek, it's easier than you think. Moral values are not just about s-e-x. Jesus in the Gospels was overtly hostile toward the rich, the greedy, the self-righteous and hypocrites.
Moral values is social justice, it's caring for the poor and the sick and the young. It's environmental stewardship, ethical corporations and honest, accountable leadership.
And if "values voters" still don't get it, like Atrios sez, we start exposing the lying, cheating hypocritical shitheads among conservative ranks Larry Flynt-style.
Monkey Boy can take his call for unity and stick it where the sun don't shine.
In his tiny mind, "unity" means "shut up and do as you're told."
I was never the "shut up and do as you're told type."
To Bush and the 59-plus million morons who voted for him: f**k you all.
They cannot silence ALL of us.
They cannot lock ALL of us away.
Atheists have moral values just like anyone else. Don't let the lie stand that says only conservative Christians have a sense of morality!
Do Unto Others...
Justice
Equality
Innocent Until Proven Guilty
These are values, people!
These are the questions I have about the elections. That's all they are, questions, but they all need answers before I can be calm.
1. If the Republicans were so much better at getting out the votes, why did the media not report on this? All I ever read or heard or saw was the all the new Democratic voters. Why did the media fail to report on this important aspect?
2. Why were the exit polls wrong always in the same direction? If they were wrong for reasons of the sample being unrepresentative, one would expect some polls to be wrong in the other direction, unless there is clear evidence explaining why Republicans would all vote late in the day.
3. Why did the Republicans try to ban exit polling in Ohio before the elections? If they did, I'm not sure of this one.
4. Why have the Republicans been so keen to change the voting machines to machines which have an infantilely easy hackability factor and no real way of checking the results?
5. Why does it seem to be the case by some reports that Bush himself believed that he was losing (based on internal polls) until he was told otherwise by Karl Rove? This could be tinfoil territory but I have seen that mentioned.
The most important test on the ITA report is called the “penetration analysis.” This test is supposed to tell us whether anyone can break into the system to tamper with the votes.
“Not applicable,” wrote Shawn Southworth, of Ciber Labs, the ITA that tested the Diebold GEMS central tabulator software. “Did not test.”
Holy effin' cow.
Silleigh -
The new mail server I signed up with had a nervous breakdown over the weekend. It's supposed to be working now.
Did you receive what I sent you regarding our Thursday night discussion? No need for you to reply by mail to me if you're not interested, just want to know if everything's okey-dokey with my new account.
There's one other way we can start taking back the Senate, and that's to complete the absorption of the Yankee Republicans. Even if it is too much to ask Chafee, Snowe, and Collins to become Democrats, it would be enough to get them to imitate Jeffords. And we must be prepared to seize these seats the moment they become vacant.
trying to fight from the "middle" is a monumental mistake. In the first place, the middle doesn't exist anymore.
I agree. There are clear distinctions between the parties. That middle ground gave us Loserman and all the other mushy characters who don't appeal to anyone.
Opposition is going to mean laying out the case clearly and forcefully for our side, voting against the worst of what the other side opposes, and having clear responsibility exist for the consequences of legislation. We aren't going to win too many battles in the next couple of years. Deal with it.
As my head clears from last week this has started to sink in with me as well. The Ds need to caucus and decide exactly what lines they are going to draw and start working on building coalitions with moderate Rs to get the job done. This inevitable means that a lot of things will fall through.
But here is something shaping up that I think is interesting. Did anyone see James Dobson on This Week?
It's blogged here.
The Xtian right seems presently unconcerned with us. They have a hit on Specter and he made it clear that there objection should prevent him from being Chair of Judiciary.
Chuck Hagel and Susan Collins where on 'Face the Nation' and were defending Specter.
Can we hope that for now the Xtian right will feed on their own and in the process slow things down?
"IF SEVERAL MILLION PEOPLE SHOW UP AT THE CAPITOL FOR JR'S JAN RESWEARING
AND MAKE ENOUGH NOISE..."
Our fine liberal media will report it as several hundred. If they report it at all.
I propose something similar, but impossible to ignore -- because it will cost money. Several million people contact their cable company on January 20, and cancel their service, effective immediately. They state as their reason for doing so that they are no longer willing to subsidize directly or indirectly the distortions and outright lies propagated by the corporate right-wing media.
55 million people voted for Kerry. 55 million people are shelling out their hard-earned dollars to be villified by Fox News, belittled by MSNBC, ignored by CNN, and their cohorts.
WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE?
I'm paying 50 bucks a month for basic cable. Sure, all 55 million Kerry voters aren't going to do this, but what about 5 million? Let's use my 50 bucks a month as an average. That comes to $250 million a month, and $3 BILLION a year removed from the corporate coffers. The various cable providers are owned by a handful of parent companies, so that money gets split up, but not that many ways.
IT WILL SHOW UP ON AN EARNINGS STATEMENT.
This would be symbolic, like the gas-out a couple years back. But unlike gas, you can do without cable. That 3 billion stays gone.
This is a serious proposal for a concerted action.
This is a large scale protest we can make without leaving our homes.
This is a preview of the brave new world the corporations are trying to bring about -- when no one is making a decent living, luxuries like cable will be among the first sacrifices everyone makes.
And this is a reminder of the simple fact that, goddamit, THERE ARE 55 MILLION OF US! They may miscount our votes, but they always always always count the dollars.
They're going to try to pretend that we are not here, that our voices do not need to be listened to. Fair enough. They can do without our voices AND our money.
I propose we call this National Cable
Out(r)age Day. If you voted against Bush on November 2, vote against him again on January 20. And this time do it with your money.
Yes, I'll miss the Daily Show. And Harvey Birdman, and Monk. My wife will update me on the sports she's not watching. My daugher will gripe about missed anime.
But given the number of people who have died for the principles of this nation, I think I can make this sacrifice.
Kate,
BTW, I got your mail and sent you a reply today. Good luck with your service.
Roddy,
I'm with you, man, really I am. I'm so with you I already don't have cable.
trying to fight from the "middle" is a monumental mistake. In the first place, the middle doesn't exist anymore.
I completely disagree and think that this greatly misinterprets the election.
I think the truth is the middle is bigger than ever. People are still scared and a few more have been convinced Bush can keep them safer. Yes, I know this is absurd, but that's the way it is.
What we need to do is Identify a core agenda and fight them on it to the death.
We also need to support 527's that keep up the attack on things Bush is vulnerable on, and there is a lot.
People are not happy with the deficit or with his views on stem cell research. I know plenty of people who voted for Bush, and not one of them because they want prayer in schools are an end to stem cell research.
Fuck a flat tax. Let's go one step further. The Dems should propose a regressive tax. When everyone asks why, the Dem leadership should repsond "if you want to cut taxes on the rich and raise them on everyone else this is the same bad proposal as a flat tax."
The idea that this election was won over so-called "moral values" and "moral values" alone hearkens back to the SCLM"s infamous laziness. (As Somerby noted -- I think it was yesterday.) These things are always over-determined: 59 million people (and 56 million ohters) had a dozen different reasons. Did Rove get more fundies to the ballot box with the gay marriage initiatives? Probably. Did a lot of soccer mothers (and fathers) in the ex-urbs buy the "Bush is stronger on national security" truism? At least as true. Did some poor rural voters in Kansas vote for Bush because they think Bush's tax cuts help them? Yes, that too.
One of the key reasons for combatting the idea that this all came down to "moral values" is precisely the fact that the DLC will bludgeon us with the absolutely unsupported idea that if we could only nominate a few more John Breauxs everything would be okay.
-- Stu
"New York Times columnists railing against the Right's favorite liberal strawmen should be ignored."
The New York Times columnists (Krugmann and Herbert excepted) can be ignored with impunity if your goal is information. My mother finally dropped her subscription. I don't think it was my swearing at it every time I opened it while visiting. Nor was it the Monday fashion nonsense (comics would add more gravitas than those cheap girls, not much better than page three of The Mirror).
"I'm not holding my breath, but the media needs to reevaluate its role when we have entrenched single-party rule. More on this later."
What happened to the virtue of divided government they always harped on in the Clinton years? Cokie was big on divided government too.
Holding your breath for media integrity is sure to be fatal.
"... for which ever side can pay the best."
For the last two decades or so, Democrats have papered over substantive differences within the party by starting all conversations about policy with questions about politics. Rather than arguing for moving left or moving right on the merits, both wings of the party have made arguments almost entirely about how to win elections. The result is the party has never forced itself to come to any sort of internal agreement about what it actually stands for. And what has emerged is an ultra-safe politics that tries to offend as few voters as possible in the hopes that the GOP will offend a whole bunch more. Time and time again, this strategy has almost worked, but it almost always falls short (the only exceptions are Clinton in '92 and '96...and he's a political genius, as well as the mid-term '98 elections, in which the GOP really HAD turned off masses of voters). The best this strategy does on a regular basis is lose close elections.
So I'm 100% in agreement with Atrios. The Democratic Party needs to figure out what it stands for if its going to win elections. Two things to note about this process. First, many Democrats will be pissed off at the result. Secondly, although folks are used to arguing in terms of how a given position will play electorally, this internal debate should be made 100% on the basis of what is desireable for this country. If the GOP has proven anything, it's that you can win backing policies that most Americans actually oppose. The Dems should figure out what they stand for, and THEN should figure out how to sell it to the voting public.
One more thing. Progressive Democrats better not show up for this gun fight armed with knives. The rightwing of the party, the folks who supported (and support) the Iraq war, who are in favor of destroying the gains of the New Deal and the Great Society (i.e. welfare "reform"), who have helped build a global trade policy that favors multinationals over people, who favor media consolidation and the destruction of the intellectual public domain are willing to fight tooth and nail for the party to commit itself to their center-right agenda.
Whether or not the election was truly lost or not seems irrelevant these days, unfortunately. It seems that Kerry/Edwards were rather better equipped financially to deal with such a loss than was Gore, but they did not attempt to do so. Given that, we are asking why we lost. Values seems to be an element at play here, but it is the type of values where faith is more crucial than works. It seems from talking (for the last time, perhaps) with my pro-Bushie friends that this was indeed the case. And if we are losing on values before we even discuss other issues like economics, war, terrorism, environment, etc., doesn't that beg us to look hard at our positions there? Perhaps we ought to cede these issues not because it is right, but because we aren't winning anyway in attempting to fight the values battle. And sometimes, to use they infernal war metaphors, it’s better to lose a battle than a war. Moreover, it seems reasonable to conclude that we'll continue to lose values elections year after year, even when our candidate is an alter-boy war hero and theirs is a non-church going, draft-dodger. So, if we're going to lose our position on values, cede it to the rethugs and force them to fight on other crucial issues where we can and should beat them...
Just thinking out loud,
JM
democrats should obstruct repukelican fanatical judges at every opportunity.
"If, as news reports claim, Chenron is pushing for some version of a flat income tax, or consumption based tax, and the Democrats are unable to convince the vast majority of voters that this will in fact constitute a tax increase for them, then all is hopeless."
Well, eventually, they'll notice, after the thing is passed, that their taxes have gone up . . .
Check this out...
http://www.commondreams.org/view...s04/1106-
30.htm
I moderate at Thom's site and I think the fireworks on this may start to go off once the FBI sinks their teeth into what Jeff told them Saturday!
bill
Well, eventually, they'll notice, after the thing is passed, that their taxes have gone up . . .
Yeah. And the Republicans will blame the Democrats, and the people will agree.
The Democratic Party needs to figure out what it stands for if its going to win elections.
That government of THE PEOPLE by THE PEOPLE and for THE PEOPLE will not perish from the earth.
That, a working wage, an clean enviornment and freedom and justice for all.
If there is something else please tell me what it is?
...and I think the fireworks on this may start to go off once the FBI sinks their teeth into...
Yeah. Ummm, that would be the FBI, supervised by the Justice Department? John Ashcroft's Justice Department?
"There's a town in Mississippi called Freedom. There's a Department in Washington called Justice."
--sign on a SNCC office wall, a long time ago.
Sorry to be a cynic. But I'm rarely disappointed.
Make that living wage, the eye appointment is coming up soon, folks. Sorry.
reno just rolled over and played dead in 2000. and the senate too, when we held majority. all that subpoena power, not taken advantage of...it's enough to make you want to cry.
who knows how many years will pass before we have it again.
"Anyone who thinks that Democrats lost Senate seats because voters perceived that Tom Daschle was an "obstructionist" is a fool."
Go ask the voters of SD...
"If "values" are the new battleground, which I mostly doubt, then I say bring it on, Larry Flynt-style. Let the scarlet A's be handed out, the closet doors swung open, and weekly church attendance records of members of congress and the administration be compiled. If sinning godless heathens are the problem, then let's be clear about who the sinning godless heathens are."
Cute. You support smear tactics and possible extortion simply to gain a temporary political advantage...
Oh goodie. The first troll of the new era.
r, you didn't mind gop smear tactics. purple heart band-aids were ever so cute.
Well, Reggie, it's worked very well for your side for 50 years, so FOAD, after you GFY.
Can we hope that for now the Xtian right will feed on their own and in the process slow things down?
I really think we're getting too worked up about the Jesus freaks. They think they've got the upper hand and that they're going to be able to make demands of Bush; but I think the reality of the situation is that Bush doesn't feel he owes them a dime. Karl Rove played them like a cheap reed organ.
Not one of these guys has the power he had in 1984; not Falwell, not Robertson, not Dobson. Reagan had to build a coalition with these guys to get things done; Bush doesn't have to.
Part of the reason why, of course, is Bush's own cluelessness; if he gets to the end of 2008 without being assassinated, he'll consider his second term a success, even if he spends the entire time sitting on his ass watching TV.
Go ask the voters of SD...
Tell you what, asswipe. If you can find half a dozen people in South Dakota who can spell "obstructionist", then we'll talk.
the media needs to reevaluate its role when we have entrenched single-party rule.
Nah. Their role is to make money for their owners. Simple as that. Whatever sells cars and beer is what we'll get. CBS already owes us bigtime for the TANG memos. Think they'll ever pay up? Don't hold yer breath on that one, either.
JM,
The way to win the values battle is to force the repubs passed what the talked about during the campaign. Make them walk the walk. The won b/c of abortion/gays. Instead of blocking judges, the dems should say to the repubs you are completely in charge of the govt-when is abortion going to be criminalized? Notice that the language is not pro-life, but criminalize abortion. Which women are going to be jailed/executed? Dems don't get it.
"you didn't mind gop smear tactics. purple heart band-aids were ever so cute."
This was the dems fault. The dems pretty much blew their convention, opting to play nice. Meanwhile, the repubs has these vile band-aids. When have the repubs played nice? The Clintonistas played harball; they went to the bush campaign to tell them if they made a big deal of J Flowers, that they would drop the A-bomb on Bush Sr. Everytime the dems behave like wimps, they get crushed. When Cheney said if you elect Kerry, the terrorist would nuke us, I cannot understand for the the life of me why Kerry did not say, who was on vacation on 911, after recieving a memo saying planes would crash into us.
how will voting reform ever be implemented when repukelicans have found it so easy and useful to manipulate the vote? Where's the incentive for them?
bizarrely enough, we outspent the Republicans and still lost. More money is not the answer.
Our side spent money on campaigning: Signs, phone banks, canvassing, appearances, etc.
Their side consolidated a lot more: They bought voting machine companies. And they bought them cheap.
As long as Republicans continue to control (and abuse) the systems used to conduct elections, no election can be considered legitimate.
As long as Republicans continue to control (and abuse) the systems used to conduct elections, no election can be considered legitimate.
there's no constitutional requirement of direct public voting for presidential electors. that's just something that each of the fifty states decided to do.
get your state legislature to change the law so that presidential electors are chosen by the legislature itself. then there won't be obscene levels of campaign spending, there won't be vote fraud, and diebold won't be able to game any more presidential elections.
sure, you won't be able to vote for president on election day, but it's not like you really know who you're voting for now.
You liberals just don't get it. You don't understand what is meant by "Values". You and all your empathy and concern for other people, and your wishy washy "Love thy Neighbor" authentic Christian theology. Give us Red-Staters enemies! Make us believe that we are the "Good Guys". That we are Good on a Cosmic Level. We don't care about religion or patriotism. We just want to unite around a common enemy. Give us victims, give us sacrifice, give us mythology, it doesn't even have to be rational.
The following is a post I made today regarding an upcoming FBI investigation into voter fraud in Florida...
======================================
Until yesterday I would have agreed with you.
It only seemed natural that a fringe group would try to deny the inevitable by conjuring conspiracy theories on some anomalies in the vote results.
(My apologies to Thom for being a doubting Thomas)
But after I read Thom's article here...
Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked
the fact that a United States Congressional Candidate is meeting with the FBI, on a Saturday, is huge.
Then I decided to immediately delve into what was wrong in the first place.
The evidence suggesting fraud at ...
This site
is overwhelming.
Since percentages and actual numbers are mixed on the chart it gets confusing (IMHO) so I took 3 hours to manually convert the percentages to real numbers, so I could compare apples to apples.
Under the e-Touch systems, there are the following...
Registered Democrats-- 2,290,001
Registered Republicans-- 2,050,706
Registered Other--1,235,557
Total Registered Voters-- 5,576,264
Under the Op-Scan, there are the following...
Registered Democrats-- 1,977,863
Registered Republicans-- 1,843,691
Registered Other-- 903,472
Total Registered Voters-- 4,725,026
Election results of E-Touch System...
Dem Votes-- 1,982,210 Rep Votes-- 1,845,876
Election results under Op-Scan system...
Dem Votes-- 1,445,675 Rep Votes-- 1,950,213
So under the E-Touch system Registered Democrats outnumbered Registered Republicans by 10.5%
and under the E-Touch system Dem Votes outnumbered Rep Votes by 6.9%
Pretty darn close to voting along party lines, as would be expected.
Under the Op-Scan system Registered Democrats outnumbered Registered Republicans by 6.8%
Yet under the Op-Scan system Dem Votes were outnumbered by Rep Votes by 25.9%
That difference is far too extreme to ignore!
Had the the results of the Op-Scan system followed party lines to the same degree as the E-Touch system did, the results would have been as follows...
Dem Votes-- 1,753,890 Rep Votes-- 1,641,988
Giving Kerry a win by 248,246 votes!
The chart below shows the unbelievable difference in voter swing from one system to the other...
Click Here
If fraud is present, and it sure looks like there is, it should be easy to verify by polling one of those small counties that had the crazy swings, like Liberty County, which out of 4,075 Registered Voters, only had 321 Registered Republicans, yet came up with 1927 Republican Votes!
I suspect Jeff Fisher has already made a similar investigation and his results are now in the hands of the FBI!
====================================
If you want to know more click on my home page and check out the top thread at the message boards under the elections forum
Some merchant in Texas must have saved a check with Bush's old DL on it.
trifecta
or some merchant in Florida ... or some DA's office doing hotcheck stops ...
The way to win the values battle is to force the repubs passed what the talked about during the campaign. Make them walk the walk. The won b/c of abortion/gays. Instead of blocking judges, the dems should say to the repubs you are completely in charge of the govt-when is abortion going to be criminalized? Notice that the language is not pro-life, but criminalize abortion. Which women are going to be jailed/executed? Dems don't get it.
Live Free or Die | Email | Homepage | 11.07.04 - 9:10 pm | #
Exactly! While the position itself is antithetical to what I believe, I also believe that we'll continue to lose elections based on this single issue. And unfortunately, the effect is that we don't get to dictate terms of discussion (or even have a discussion) on other crucial issues like the environment, economics, defense, terrorism, etc. And if we can't discuss the issues, we won't win (and we won't get to govern which is even more important than "winning").
And, it seems to me, that it is likely that they will pass such measures (either through bills or through sympathetic judges). And if they do, perhaps it will end up much as prohibition was in the 1900s--a neat idea that was totally a flop with the public.
-JM
How do we do this all, gang? Where do we start?
I would LOVE to see a REAL liberal television station. Not this ridiculous excuse for "news" and "political discussion" (Gack choke puke...)
There's a way to start one on public access, I was in Philly the other day and picked up a brochure about it. We have to start SOMEWHERE....
I've got a feeling that this in this election we got to see our "faith based" money at work.
I'll bet ten bucks that they used federal dollars to get out the thumper vote.
I'm too tired to try to grok the voters in South Dakota. Tom Daschle was an ineffective Democratic leader in the Senate, he seldom exerted himself. He reminds me exactly in style and effect to Tom Foley who lost the house while persuing marble floors in the Senate chamber elevators.
If you want an example of a good, modern party leader, look at the short term of Jim Wright. If he hadn't gotten tossed on those trumped up charges he would have been more remembered today. Newt Gingrich knew exactly what he was doing when he got rid of him. Fred Wertheimer should have known, if he did he's a phony. I'd rather have a tainted leader who effectively opposes Republican despotism than a pure, clean door mat.
get your state legislature to change the law so that presidential electors are chosen by the legislature itself.
Many state legislatures are controlled by Republicans anyway.
Right now at least they have to go to the effort to steal elections. If we did as you suggest, it would be even easier for them to defy the will of the people. And, I must point out, they would only go to rigging the state-level elections so they stayed in power permanently.
Any ideas on how we can get the Rethugs to split? Get the conservatives mad enough at the evangelicals to boot them? Then they can have the GOP and the Religicans.....
Maybe if we can get the evangelicals to actually convert to Christianity I think things will improve.
It was gratifying to sit in church today and hear the pastor say, "I have never had more people say 'I'm SO depressed' to me than this week."
And then during the prayers, one woman spoke up to pray for the people of Fallujah.
Please know that Christians are not all judgemental, hostile & demeaning. There is a place for us Liberal Christians at our big table.
OK - my main point, though: The Democrats need to resist the temptation to be "GOP-lite" -- we must remain ever progressive and make that a "good" thing in the eyes of mainstream America.
I do think that our vitriol hasn't helped our cause with the "swing" voters... perhaps assuming that people (even those who voted for W) deserve respect --until its proven otherwise-- might be a good practice for us all (myself included - I got pretty hostile this week, too).
OK, homily over.
There were several posts about Noam Chomsky's work here last week. I remembered that about 10 years ago he was saying that we were regressing to the level of a pre-literate society with the most primitive beliefs about God and guardian angels and so forth. I think the election results are more evidence of that. The country really is divided into two separate worlds and neither side is ever going to understand the other.
Exodus.
Say goodbye to all your gay friends who are making plans to leave the country.
And, hey, if you can't bring yourself to leave the country, then leave the red states to cut their own hair, fix their own computers, gentrify their own decaying cities, and, well, you get the point.
Let them rot in their whited sepulchers. Go decorate other parts of the country (or world) where you'll be appreciated.
Sacrifice is the word. Jesus wasn't killed by an angry human mob and cruel, corrupt political order. He just magically appeared on the cross, because God the Father needed some kind of sacrificial offering. Also the term "Love" is not synomous with "Love thy Neighbor" for evangelicals, it's actually a term more closely means something like "Marketing". Love is "witnessing" to somebody. It's kinda like an Amway person pressuring you to join Amway, that's what Love is for evangelicals.
For Christians the image of the Abu Ghraib prisoner with his arms spread out and electrodes attached, reminds him/her of Christ on the cross. For an evangelical all this image means is that some liberal is trying to undermine America.
*And, hey, if you can't bring yourself to leave the country, then leave the red states to cut their own hair, fix their own computers, gentrify their own decaying cities, and, well, you get the point.*
I love this idea. Have a "queer out" where no gays OR gay-friendly straights provide any service in any of the 11 "gay marriage initiative" states for a day or week or ???. Can you imagine what would happen? It would be BEAUTIFUL.
How to do it?
>then leave the red states to cut their own hair, fix their own computers, gentrify their own decaying cities, and, well, you get the point
Like this?
If anyone thinks that you can call elections legitimate in a country where the most popular "news" channel is the Fake News Channel, which has been definiteively exposed as a partisan propaganda machine, you are just not thinking or are in denial.
We are now living in a sort of proto-fascist state.
You liberals just don't get it. You don't understand what is meant by "Values". You and all your empathy and concern for other people, and your wishy washy "Love thy Neighbor" authentic Christian theology. Give us Red-Staters enemies! Make us believe that we are the "Good Guys". That we are Good on a Cosmic Level. We don't care about religion or patriotism. We just want to unite around a common enemy. Give us victims, give us sacrifice, give us mythology, it doesn't even have to be rational.
Hoppy Youngblood 11.07.04 - 9:46 pm
good point.
i don't know why dems didn't expose bush family investments in china. freepers can't stand the "chincom". this would have remind them of their hatred for china and expose bush hypocrisy of his faux patriotism, all in one shot. real patriots don't send our jobs to china. bush family benefits financially from US china policy. nail them for conflict of interest.
sick of our not fighting back. why does the rank and file have more moxie and testosterone than the party elites, who insist on pulling their punches?
The vote fraud article really states that it was optical scan machines in swing states that were the problem. Plus it isn't the individual machines but the central tabulator computer that can be hacked easily. Too much crying just makes us look like sore losers. I just hope someone behind the scenes is checking on this.
Bev Harris has requested voting info using FOIA, but it wouldn't surprise if even that gets classified if BushCo really did rig the elections.
If BushCo had nothing to do with it, it's still important to find out what went wrong now so it isn't repeated in two years. The even larger problem is that voters will just decide to not vote if they believe their vote won't count @ rigging.
Further, there needs to be new laws centered around electonic voting machines. Maybe those companies' owners shouldn't be allowed to contribute to campaigns. Maybe politions shouldn't be allowed to own any portion of a company that makes these machines. E.g. Chuck Hagel has ca. $5 M invested in ES&S electonic v machines. Conflict of interests?
Bush's flat tax will not be good for anyone except the wealthy & his ultimate interest, big corporations.
Bush is sneaky, stealthily working towards a flat tax for some time now. Here a just a few ways he's working into it in such a way as to make the presentation of the idea look good for us.
He is phasing out the inheritance tax (aka death tax), a tax that never did affect people who inherited smaller amounts. Bush called it a death tax to make it sound bad & harped on it like it affected all of us when in fact he really favors people inheriting obscene amounts.
He's phasing out capital gains tax. Again something that only affects people with money to invest esp. those with large investments. He'll tout this by giving numbers on how almost all Americans own stocks these days (his ownership society).
He plans to remove taxes on savings. Again, more benefits for big savers. He has been working towards a flat tax (stealth tax)all along.
Then he harps about how the tax laws are too complicated like we're all idiots who can't read. They aren't that complicated. Most people can easily do their own tax work and wealthy people can afford a CPA for the really complicated stuff anyway. Completely your tax forms just isn't that complicated for the average taxpayer. He's selling the idea that we're took stupid to figure our own taxes and he's doing us a favor by just asking us for a flat percentage of our income.
It will all sound good because he won't have to mention capital gains, death tax, etc. that he's already phasing in for his wealthy friends.
By the way, will he raise the cap on FICA taxes? It stops ca. $87,500.
A flat tax will NOT be fair, but they'll present it like it is. Even before the tax cut for the wealthy they were really not paying their fair share when you factor in the FICA tax stopping at $87,500
The current tax system is more fair than either a flat tax or consumption tax. Don't buy the pro-spin. They could maybe tweak the current system.
Let me see:
The permanent tax revolution will shift all costs of government from investment income to payroll income.
Privatizing Social Security will divert 1/3 of its current income stream (payroll taxes) to private investment in the stock market, where it will be lost forever.
The Baby Boom is simultaneously increasing the number of people waiting in line for Social Security benefits, and the line is getting bigger and bigger by the day.
The 'jobless recovery' is also reducing the payroll base which finances the Social Security program.
The transition costs of privatizing Social Security will be over $1 trillion, requiring benefits cuts (NOT) or payroll taxes increases (likely).
Increasing the payroll tax to a level where even those opting for private accounts will be paying as much as before for current recipients, ON TOP OF the 2% or so that was diverted to the stock market for their 'personal benefit'?
Looks the old shell game, folks, with a steeper downside if the jobless recovery doesn't add more high-paying jobs. And SBC just announced 10,000 layoffs?? Offshoring continues apace, illegal and legal immigration will continue to depress wages, further lowering the payroll tax stream financing Social Security.
Looks like an interesting decade ahead. I'm gonna stay tuned.
I just wanted to point out an extremely obnoxious piece by Lawrence Kaplan in TNR, which I basically reprinted all of and attacked on my blog.
Kaplan argues that Democrats Hate Real Americans. I thought we'd be done with that, but no.
look @ Boxer, look @ Feingold.
they stoof their ground & WON.
EAT THAT, TERRY MAC!!!!!
My little republican mother said she thought a consumption tax would be a fantastically fair idea, because she just wouldn't buy anything. I was amused that she called it the "value Added tax." Is that what the republicans are calling it? I thought we despised all European infulence?
www.powerliberal.blogspot.com
My little republican mother said she thought a consumption tax would be a fantastically fair idea, because she just wouldn't buy anything. I was amused that she called it the "value Added tax." Is that what the republicans are calling it? I thought we despised all European infulence?
www.powerliberal.blogspot.com
My little republican mother said she thought a consumption tax would be a fantastically fair idea, because she just wouldn't buy anything. I was amused that she called it the "value Added tax." Is that what the republicans are calling it? I thought we despised all European infulence?
www.powerliberal.blogspot.com
Random thoughts on why it didn't turn out the other way:
1. Terry McAuliffe
2. Rigged vote machines/counts
3. 49% of the women's vote to Bush
4. No message
5. the secret joke that Hollywood is liberal and all intellectuals/college professors too. Scratch the skin and you find these millionaire liberals standing next to their republican accountants.
6. Terry McAuliffe
Don't underestimate the power of Lind and the presidential prayer team - why had no choice in the matter, as this was god's will.
http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org
(will just tap the okay button this time rather than hold it down)
"Please know that Christians are not all judgemental, hostile & demeaning."
I know that objectively, but I keep having to remind myself that I know that objectively. I know that these people would be as shortsighted and bigoted no matter whether they worshipped Jesus, Odin, Baal, or Osiris.
And I know they are wrong. I know this because if they are right, that means I am more compassionate than God. And have a better sense of humor. And while they think me blasphemous, I know there is no way that I can be more anything than God. And I'm an agnostic...
Why can't a Dem politician just simply point out that Jesus would never support the policies of the Republican Party? Why can't we on the left re-claim the true Jesus, who would have nothing to do with these so-called Christians we see today? Jesus' teachings were and are incompatible with modern evanglical fundamentalism. Perhaps, those in the red states would listen to this argument. Perhaps not. But to start we should frame the "values" debate in this way.
Why can't a Dem politician just simply point out that Jesus would never support the policies of the Republican Party? Why can't we on the left re-claim the true Jesus, who would have nothing to do with these so-called Christians we see today? Jesus' teachings were and are incompatible with modern evanglical fundamentalism. Perhaps, those in the red states would listen to this argument. Perhaps not. But to start we should frame the "values" debate in this way.
As more sober post election analysis indicates, "values" didn't have anything more to do with this election that the previous one. Most likely it was the fact that the majority of voters thought that Saddam was in charge of 9/11.
There was nothing wrong with John Kerry.
We could have resurrected FDR and those bastards in the red states STILL would have voted for The Retard from Crawford.
And some people STILL just don't get it.
My cousin, who lives in Florida (born in Media) asked me this morning what I was getting so bent out of shape about.
"The four years will go fast and maybe next time, the Democrats will run someone more likeable."
I e-mailed her back: "Likeable? I had no idea it was a popularity contest. Likeable, to Americans, obviously is synonymous with dumb as a post!"
She e-mailed me and said "If you think Americans are so stupid, why are you staying here?"
I told her: "Number one, unlike the cousin-loving, bible-thumping, knuckle-dragging, misanthropic MORONS who voted for Monkey Boy, I just can't hitch up a trailer and take off. I have responsibilities and ties....a mortgage, my job, etc. Number two, these f**ktards are not driving ME from my country. They can't silence ALL of us!"
The four years will go fast? I asked her "What happens if King George the Jackass decides he wants to be dictator and abolishes elections?"
You know, she actually believes I'm exaggerating and being paranoid.
Then, there's the headline I saw this morning about voters being "relieved" about the "decisive" result of the election.
Decisive? With voter suppression and voter fraud rampant in Ohio and Florida?
I wonder who talked to? The 59,054,087 imbeciles who handed the country over to Chimp-Face? They sure didn't ask me or anyone else in the blue states.
Oh, I'm sure the f**ktards are relieved. Now, they can give their full attention to the IMPORTANT things in life: church (where they can learn to hate some more); football, the WWE, NASCAR and KKK meetings.
I hope they, their kids and their grandkids are the first ones drafted.
I've decided I will not visit a red state, spend money in a red state, buy anything on-line or via the Internet from a red state and I will check before bidding on items on e-bay. If the seller is in a red state, I don't need it that badly.
F**k them all!
You left this one out from the Saturday NYT. Values = code word for anti-gay anti-choice.
********
Humphrey Taylor, chairman of the Harris Poll, said in a posting on the Internet that the difference may have been because most of the pre-election surveys ask voters to mention on their own the most important issues of the election.
"When so few people (one percent in our October survey) mentioned moral values spontaneously, I very much doubt the pundits' conclusions that this was really more important than the issues that came at the top of our list when they were not prompted," Mr. Taylor wrote on the Web site of the American Association of Public Opinion Researchers.
But Bill McInturff, a Republican pollster, called critiques "garbage.''
"The people who picked moral values as an issue know what that means," he said. "It's a code word in surveys for a cluster of issues like gay marriage and abortion."
Mr. McInturff said that if "moral values" was really a "catchall" with a confused meaning, then more Democrats would have picked it. Of the 22 percent who chose "moral values," 80 percent were Bush supporters, 20 percent were Kerry supporters. "It's self-selected by people for whom these issues are very important for their votes," he said, adding that the margin by which Mr. Bush carried these voters arguably made the difference in the election
*********
You left this one out from the Saturday NYT. Values = code word for anti-gay anti-choice.
********
Humphrey Taylor, chairman of the Harris Poll, said in a posting on the Internet that the difference may have been because most of the pre-election surveys ask voters to mention on their own the most important issues of the election.
"When so few people (one percent in our October survey) mentioned moral values spontaneously, I very much doubt the pundits' conclusions that this was really more important than the issues that came at the top of our list when they were not prompted," Mr. Taylor wrote on the Web site of the American Association of Public Opinion Researchers.
But Bill McInturff, a Republican pollster, called critiques "garbage.''
"The people who picked moral values as an issue know what that means," he said. "It's a code word in surveys for a cluster of issues like gay marriage and abortion."
Mr. McInturff said that if "moral values" was really a "catchall" with a confused meaning, then more Democrats would have picked it. Of the 22 percent who chose "moral values," 80 percent were Bush supporters, 20 percent were Kerry supporters. "It's self-selected by people for whom these issues are very important for their votes," he said, adding that the margin by which Mr. Bush carried these voters arguably made the difference in the election
*********
There was nothing wrong with John Kerry.
please. let us not allow party loyalty to blind us to the reality. there was a lot wrong with kerry.
what I think we should do:
We need to get democratic candidates in local elections, school boards, city council, etc. To do this, we should:
start raising money on a national and state level for funds dedicated to small local races.
concentrate our forces on the red states that are almost purple by:
having democratic clubs/groups "sponsor" dem clubs/groups in purple states
phone bank for them
raise money for them
co-ordinate volunteers
design, create, and mail flyers and marketing info for them
Provide an infrastructure for local campaigns that allows them to go to one website and start a campaign. Everything. For example:
Bumper stickers
Lawn Signs
pins
access to a voter databases
application for money from the state/city/county party
access to a database of known volunteers
send out an announcement to the state party, local party, city party democratic clubs, etc.
give them contact info for every democratic organization in their area
Make sure the votes we get are counted.
fund projects like the Open Voting Consortium -- they're good. Seriously. I do information security for a living.
start lobbying for votes to be verified by foreign election groups.
get new voters:
Immigration reform. Lets get all of these mexicans who are sneaking into the country legal, and get them voting.
We need to have people on telemunda constantly
we should be doing interviews with mexican television stations, and newspapers.
We need to start communicating with industries that require a four year degree
do interviews with technology sites like slashdot
do interviews with scientific magazines like the popular science, the journal nature, websites like newscientist.com
literary magazines
womens magazines: "O", glamor, vouge, etc.
college alumni mailing lists
union newsletters
Local Democratic clubs and parties should do volunteer work at least a few times a year in poor <insert minority group> communities
We need to constantly be experimenting with different was of presenting issues
We need more thinktanks.
we need to create an infrastructure for distributed polling callcenters: you should be able to go to a website, log in, be presented with a script, a number, and several potential responses so volunteers can put in 10 minutes here, and ten minutes there and don't have to gather at "phone banks"
we need tons of data
we need databases with more than just a persons name, address, phone number, email address, age and race. We need interests, priority, employment status, ranked issues, religion, if they practice regularly, what issues they have a problem with. What Issues
well, that ripped out all the nice formatting. To see a better formatted copy of the list above, go to http://pocketsofresistance.org/t...org/
theplan.php
Make no mistake about it the GOP tax plans will be damaging to middle and lower income people.
Perhaps if these measures are passed (over strident Democratic objections) the American people will, at long last, have a real view of the monster their negligence has unleashed.
I wouldn't suggest filibusters or any extraordinary means to defeat any seriously regressive GOP tax measures.
cntd -
What I'm trying to say is that if these "people" try to overreach they get them selves into some deep water. I say don't step in to save them. Throw the bastards an anvil.
We don't need to be obstructionists. Screw that. The Republicans have all the reins of power, and it's time to craft an agenda that hangs that around their necks.
We don't need liberal media, we need to capture the man on the street.
The Republicans are trying trying to write an set of religious beliefs into law? We want people to be calling into right-wing talk radio shows asking if they're starting a formal state religion. We want people wondering if the government is going to shut down their church unless it follows the party line.
The Republicans are wasting our money on giveaways to the rich? Promote a Balanced Budget Amendment and bait the Republicans with it.
The Republicans are trying to dumb down our schools with lowest common denominator "standards" and "intelligent design" creationism? Promote school vouchers, so that at least our own kids can go to competent schools.
The Republicans want to overturn Roe v. Wade? Let them do it? Hell, let them ban abortion in cases when it's necessary for the life of the mother. Can you think of a better issue to hang around their necks in the next election?
The key is to stake out the center -- not the left -- and make the Republicans the party of radicals who want to force everyone to pledge their fealty to a national religion.
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