I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Nice!
Where is my Bush mandate?
Is that Dirk Diggler on the cover of Mandate?
Great job atrios. Making fun of gay people and google bombing. Great to see you're fighting the good fight. Just use gays for their votes, then make fun of homosexuality by labeling Republicans gay. Very hypocritical you bigot!!
"Anonymous" = incoherent troll fuckhead
Just sayin'!
Exploiting gay people as comical props is so funny! I am so glad I voted Democrat this year with John Kerry's strong support for gay marriage! First using Andrew Sullivan with butt jokes, now this. Hey lets start with the handicapped next. I am sure we can do some Reeve/Superman jokes.
"Peņa" - ditto
In fact, quite possibly the same troll. Or two trolls sharing the same brain.
Just sayin'!
Did I miss the discussion on the election being stolen, again?
atrios, I think you're losing the thread
Atrios,
Man, you gotta give us some warning. Good thing I wasn't at work. 
Hey, MisterX -- you are the biggest moron. If I want to use a clever handle, like your stupid name or the "incoherent troll fuckhead" you suggested -- THAT WILL BE MY CHOICE. I dopn't really give a hoot what all the small minded people that post here have to say -- I am just grateful that enough intellegent people post comments that I don't miss anything by skipping over your. I do get upset when people make fun of my name -- I don't make fun of your (well, not really). Give me some credit -- I post ALL the anonymous comments EVERYWHERE on the Internet, so I am obviously more literate and well read than a moron like yourself.
I am proud of this handle and the posts here are always exclusively MINE!
I think Sullivan was trying to dislodge some of the posters on this thread.
Considering up to three-quarters of Bush supporters literally did not know what his positions were, Sam Seder is correct calling it not a mandate but a blind date.
Mary Cheney needs a man-date.
Just sayin'
Looks like anonymous was thinking the same thing. I understand what he means. Its ok for gays to vote Democratic as long as we don't mind being taken for granted and used as the "butt" of the straights jokes.
As a gay person, I can say I wasn't the least bit offended. So you trolls can kindly quit sticking up for me, k?
whoa... please post a nsfw on that one... i think the guy behind me in the computer lab is getting the wrong idea...
OT: Tweety was at my community college. Would've loved to give hime a piece of my mind, but decided chordal inversions were better worth my time.
Come on, trolltards, we're just giving the Bushies a healthy dose of BIG FAT IRONY. Big, long, thick, meaty irony.
where is john kerry?
Wow MisterX, you got a response from both of them. I'll bet America's Nemesis could use you in some hellaciously evil experiments.
Just sayin'! 
We're not making fun of gay people, we're making fun of Captain Codpiece's dubious masculinity.
Just wanted to clear that up.
ditto leslie...
as a lesbian...I almost wanted a mandate...it's a very attractive mandate...
Buck Fush! I want a
REAL MANDATE!
Come on, trolltards, we're just giving the Bushies a healthy dose of BIG FAT IRONY. Big, long, thick, meaty irony.
The Bushies might not like it if you shove your big, long, thick, meaty irony down their throats.
anybody seen this? it just made the del.icio.us/popular page:
http://www.fuckthesouth.com/
funny as HELL!
Bush thinks mandates are FABULOUS!
The only thing more annoying than a troll is a troll with a shtick.
Don't EVEN get me started!
2 ideas (ok, 2 fantasies) -
1) Every one who voted for Kerry contributes at least $1.00 to blackboxvoting...
2) The Democrats in Congress ABSTAIN from every single Republican proposed piece of legislation - give the "people" what they want! Then see if they really want it...
With all due respect, I think the gay voters here in the U.S need to realize they played a significant part in Kerry's loss no matter what the 1023045867 different number of post election experts claim to have analyzed to the contrary.
Since most of us are now forced to endure Bush for four more years because gay and lesbian americans couldn't wait until AFTER the election to start trying to get married, it seems they owe us at least one joke on their part for the purposes of getting back at those who have gone to such great lengths to hurt them far more than Atrios ever has.
Now that we think about it. I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to ensure that any controversial issues like gay marriage be put off and pushed out of the public limelight until *after* democrats take back either the WH or congress. Then the democrats can let those issues out and play damage control for part of the four years that follow.
MYOB'
.
pixie - But I crave the elusive TROLL TRIFECTA! Wish me luck!
This is waaaay off topic, but...
does anyone want to sing MacArthur's Park? I don't know if it's the Red Stripe or the the gay overtones to this thread, but I have Donna Summer's disco version of the song swirling in my head.
OT idea (open thread is filling up fast):
I've seen a lot of talk about how Democrats need to 'play dirty' like the Repubs if they want to win. Why not convince some of those billionaire lefty sympathizers to fund the creation of an ultra-right party?
Platform:
- immediate constitutional ban on all abortion, no exceptions
- immediate constitutional ban on gay marriage
- a ridiculously low flat tax
- ban on all forms of gun control
- immediate withdrawal of all troops from foreign soil (or the exact opposite, whichever would be most attractive)
- huge reduction in immigration
- enshrining of Judeo-Christianity as US's official religion
- official language English (only, for ever and ever)
etc., etc., etc.,. In other words, all the extreme ends of the Republican ideology. Call it the America Party, or the Freedom Party.
What do you think? Would it work?
(Of course, such a party may actually exist, but I am suggesting seeding it with enough money to buy lots of ads and become visible.)
Failing that, just switch to the parliamentary system. It's a pain in the ass, but it's not like the system you;ve got is working. Do you think Bush would have held up against weekly opposition questioning in some kind of House of Commons? Imagine the first debate with Kerry - EVERY COUPLE OF DAYS. Plus, you would actually be getting some serious representation for your 48% of the pop vote.
Those guys are gay??? How do we know??
Maybe my gadar is off after all the false Republican Posers I've seen all year on the anti-gay adds that BC04 put out???
I'm not sure that guy's gay... Any clues? HELP!
OT, but very important. Bush stole Florida http://www.ilcaonline.org/module...article&
sid=943
(sorry for the long link to cut and paste)
Dubya reminds me of a classmate from Cornell. Fortunately, we lived in a theatre theme house, so he got plenty of support once he came to terms with his true self. He was a lot less judgmental and conservative, too. Can you say "overcompensation?"
Anonymous baby:
Your comments strangely echo those of Alan Simpson (R-Prozac) on "Real Time With Bill Maher'. Maher attempts to engage Simpson on the supposed Fundamentalizing of America. Simpson launches into a tirade about how he works with a "straight and gay" group of some sort, and before you know it, old Bill was being accused of being homophobic due to his kidding of some of Simpson's more questionable statements.
Perfect judo flip on the Blue Stater! Say, was "call all liberals intolerant" on the RNC blast fax this week? I'm guessing you're hetero and your Outrage[c] is about as genuine as Mary Cheney's mother's.
You know what? Almost a year ago, I made a statement on this very blog to the effect that we had to deep-six any and all this suddenly-hot talk of "gay marriage" STAT. We had an election to win. I warned that this whole subject was DESIGNED BY THE OTHER GUYS, to be The Wedge Issue From Hell, we were getting punk'd, and that it didn't have dick to do with the issues which required a new president.
The reaction was that OBVIOUSLY, I just wasn't beimg sensitive enough to realize the critical importance of fighting the last great doemstic human rights battle... RIGHT THIS MINUTE!
So, everybody! How'd that work out for ya?
(Oh yeah, this fulmination was in response to a troll. I totally forgot what you said. You trolls have that effect on us, in general).
And here I thought Anonymous was cleverly channelling Alan Simpson's meltdown on Bill Maher -- then I find, oh, it's just the resident egomaniac.
As for the thread topic: It works better if you put "bush mandate" into Google and hit the Lucky button.
BTW, Peņa, what does Sully's groping his own hindquarters in front of a large audience have to do with his sexual orientation? It would have been equally as disconcerting coming from Pat Schroeder or D.L. Hughley. If either of them had behaved that weirdly and it spawned a thread, I guess that would have been sexist or racist respectively, right?
this election was hacked! this ain't no small story.
we gotta pound away at this.
all those states were going kerry yet suddenly went bush!
stinks to high heaven.
this needs unremiting repetition on the net.
karl rove has struck again!
The only thing more annoying than a troll is a troll with a shtick. Don't EVEN get me started! - Carpbasman
You said it friend.
At least HE ISN'T NAMED PASTAGAGGER or some such shit.
hello??? where is john kerry?
Dear Lord of the Blog,
would you consider putting up a link to "tinyurl" or some such in a handy spot?
Ohhh...geee.
Gay people lost the election? Or "anti-gay activism" polite talk for bigotry...won?
I don't know...I guess gays can get the hell back in the closet and wait so everyone can be happy??
Homosexuals aren't and shouldn't be that important.
Looks like anonymous was thinking the same thing.
Yes, I think the same thing -- I am omni-powerful. As the EXCLUSIVE ANONYMOUS poster here at eschaton, I understand what EVERYONE is going to post BEFORE they even key it! I am more powerful than those with so-called "clever" handles, so do not attempt to fight it. I post ALL the anonymous posts and comments ALL OVER the Internets.
Josh Wand - just emailed that out - funnier than shit!
And MisterX, be careful what you wish for...
Tod Westlake,
Your neice Molly says hi. Hope you're well.
With all due respect, I think the gay voters here in the U.S need to realize they played a significant part in Kerry's loss no matter what the 1023045867 different number of post election experts claim to have analyzed to the contrary.
Since most of us are now forced to endure Bush for four more years because gay and lesbian americans couldn't wait until AFTER the election to start trying to get married, it seems they owe us at least one joke on their part for the purposes of getting back at those who have gone to such great lengths to hurt them far more than Atrios ever has.
Thanks. Since my lesbianism outweighed my GOTV work [who knows, really; let's just assume that it does], I'll commit myself here to never, ever doing GOTV work again.
I'll be happy to withdraw from participatory electoral politics altogether, after 20 years of walking neighborhoods, ringing doorbells, making phone calls, stuffing envelopes, etc.
Enjoy your party, MYOB, and your seat in the front of the bus.
Oh, and fuck you.
You know, the gimmicks been oversold when it's hard to tell whether it's the real troll, or someone spoofing 'em.
What is the deal with THAT?!
Since my lesbianism outweighed my GOTV work [who knows, really; let's just assume that it does], I'll commit myself here to never, ever doing GOTV work again.
Well couldn't you occasionally ask a woman that likes dick to vote democratic too? It doesn't have to be a "dike" thing...
What is the deal with THAT?!
Carpbasman
Maybe Rove is outsourcing all the troll positions...
George W. Bush should congratulate himself. He's started a brand spanking new cold war. Right here in the United States.
The New Un-Civil Cold War, blue vs. red, conservatives vs liberals, rich vs everyone who isn't rich, left vs. right.
Yup. The New Un-civil Cold War.
Pat your back GWB. You've divided America more than Osama bin Laden had ever hoped.
Since most of us are now forced to endure Bush for four more years because black americans couldn't wait until AFTER the election to start trying to get married, it seems they owe us at least one joke on their part for the purposes of getting back at those who have gone to such great lengths to hurt them far more than Atrios ever has.
Well couldn't you occasionally ask a woman that likes dick to vote democratic too? It doesn't have to be a "dike" thing...
What the fuck are you talking about?
OT - listening to Free Speech Radio news. Amnesty International is concerned about current "attitudes" by some of the commanders of the US units leading the assault on Falluja. One Capt. was quoted as say that - "The insurgency in Falluja has face and it is the face of Satan. We will go in and destroy Satan".
We are so fucked.
Maybe Rove is outsourcing all the troll positions...
What, to Yakov Smirnoff?
What a country!
monica,
What the fuck are you talking about?
monica_nyc
Trust me, this isn't a straight/gay thing. It's a troll/ Eschatonian thing. What MYOB is on about I have no idea.
OT - listening to Free Speech Radio news. Amnesty International is concerned about current "attitudes" by some of the commanders of the US units leading the assault on Falluja. One Capt. was quoted as say that - "The insurgency in Falluja has face and it is the face of Satan. We will go in and destroy Satan".
Did anyone else read about the baptisms in Iraq of U.S. soldiers before the most recent assault on Fallujah?
We are so fucked.
Hummm...yeah...
I don't know...but that's some ignorant crap your're talking when you blame gays for losing the election.
And...I'm still not convinced the model is gay.
Oh, and having a penchant for dick doesn't mean you're an educated voter...(male or female)
Josh Wand: What 'zackly is del.icio.us and why are there entire extensions written about it for the Firefox browser? Care to clue in the clueless? I backed into it from your link, and it looks like a huge list of links -- whaddya do with this thing?
Canadian Bystander
I floated the idea earlier that all of our politicians should just change party affiliation to Republican.
Would be interesting watching the Right trying to work that one out.
I have Donna Summer's disco version of the song swirling in my head.
Monica A
I feel your pain.
Just glad I can't hear it...
Trust me, this isn't a straight/gay thing. It's a troll/ Eschatonian thing. What MYOB is on about I have no idea.
It's both, I think.
Let's have the fucking culture war, already, so we can quit pretending that reality is something other than what it is.
Is someone stealing names again?
I thought we put that stupid idea about gays losing the election to bed. It's egregiously stupid. And even if it was true, i'd say tough shit.
I do not turn away from standing up for the rights of all Americans to live the lives they are entitled to live - that's what this country was founded on and that's what I believe is the only right way to be.
Don't take it out on gays. I'll concede that gay marriage was de trop, but don't abandon gays.
EkCenTrik,
Wow. Can't wrap my head around that one.
Likewise, I've been proposing since the election that we buy stock in Fox News, Diebold, and other dubious companies. Sinclair is tanking, we could get a great deal.
Ok, since no one else is going to say it:
I don't think that ManDate is looking for bush!
I have Donna Summer's disco version of the song swirling in my head.
Get yourself some Ray Charles looped in there. You'll be feeling great in no time.
AM, still working the election troll boiler room? How'd you manage to keep the job so long after everyone else got laid off? You must be a real slut.
Monica_NYC,
Read that little puff piece about the soldiers 'swaying' to the music and chills ran up my spine.
Holy war, anyone? Refreshments will be served in the chaplain's tent.
monica...that really isn't something I pictured MYOB saying...
I could be wrong, but that seems unlike the usual posts.
monica_nyc, this one's got several problems. Ignore him. He's not worth your time.
I've seen a lot of talk about how Democrats need to 'play dirty' like the Repubs if they want to win.
Sorry, I don't buy that at all. We need to play hardball, that's true. But wee need to get our message across, and that message has to include what a bunch of crooks the Rs are. Fighting fire with fire works if you're a Smoke Jumper. In Politics it can bite you onna butt real quick.
I mean, we're out to beat 'em, not join 'em.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp...4-
2004Nov8.html
'Fired Up' Kerry Returning to Senate
Aides Say He Wants to Act as Counter to Bush, and Possibly Run in 2008
By Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 9, 2004; Page A02
Democrat John F. Kerry plans to use his Senate seat and long lists of supporters to remain a major voice in American politics despite losing the presidential race last Tuesday, and he is assessing the feasibility of trying again in 2008, friends and aides said yesterday.
Kerry will attend a post-election lame-duck Senate session that begins next week and has said he is "fired up" to play a highly visible role, the friends and aides said.
Aides said Kerry is relishing the prospect of renewed combat with President Bush, fighting such measures as the president's proposal to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling. Kerry has spent the better part of the past two years on the campaign trail, meaning that his return to Capitol Hill will be something of a reintroduction to colleagues.
More at wapo.
Need some wood?
Literally.
-
CAN WE TALK ABOUT TORT REFORM?
the subject fascinates me. the way i read it, when the repfascsits use this whip, it means that they want to eliminate the demfascist contributors from the bar.
now, why do i say this? here is why. consider tobacco litigation. this is undoubtedly a mechanism by which national political parties extract future campaign contributions. it is sort of like the reason for condemnation takings.
consider ohio. in this state, the firm standing up for the plaintiffs was an historical defendant firm. but it had this partner, a former senator, a former ag, a long-time repfascist by the name of bill saxbe.
and the tobacco interests settled. the saxbe firm became very rich. but the lion share of the saxbe firm largesse was pledged to the bush regime.
this is one of the mechanisms by which the public money becomes laundered.
this is how i found it working in franklin county ohio when i became the target of takings. i hired an attorney who was connected to the repfascists. as a result, i lost the fight opposing an illegitimate taking, but i got more money from the repfascists. and so did my repfascist attorney. but as he told me, most of it he returned to the repfascist party...this is one way they financed their ops.
you can figure out the scenario, i think.
Just remember, if Bush can claim a "Mandate", then Kerry has a .96 Mandate.
Two mandates in one country.
Read that little puff piece about the soldiers 'swaying' to the music and chills ran up my spine.
Holy war, anyone? Refreshments will be served in the chaplain's tent.
Seriously. Holy war at home, holy war abroad. It's hard work, being the mouthpiece of a loving g-d.
I thought we put that stupid idea about gays losing the election to bed. It's egregiously stupid. And even if it was true, i'd say tough shit.
Well, now. The shoe's on the other foot, and all of a sudden fingers can't be pointed. What happened to all the vitriol that goes towards getting Bush elected by adhering to idealism over realism?
It sucks that Bush won, but it sure is sweet being vindicated.
I thought we put that stupid idea about gays losing the election to bed. It's egregiously stupid. And even if it was true, i'd say tough shit.
Well, now. The shoe's on the other foot, and all of a sudden fingers can't be pointed. What happened to all the vitriol that goes towards getting Bush elected by adhering to idealism over realism?
It sucks that Bush won, but it sure is sweet being vindicated.
Sure...when the words lame and duck are used next to fired up it pretty much means he's there to collect a check...
Just another politician...I'd rather have had Dean run and get crushed then have a guy who "won" concede and "think" he will actually be able to "work" with these neo con wing nuts....
bunch of bullshit...
The Bushies might not like it if you shove your big, long, thick, meaty irony down their throats.
Then again, they might!!
Seriously though, did every rock in the country roll over this past week so all the trolls could crawl out?
What a bunch of dick heads.
I didn't understand a word of that comment, anonymous. Not a word.
Canadian Bystander - I like your idea.
here are a few more platform planks:
- taxes to be paid directly to Haliburton.
- MAXIMUM fuel-efficiency standards for vehicles (around 7.5 mpg would be nice).
- only born-again Xians allowed to adopt. but why stop there? remove all children from "unsaved" families and put them into "Jesus Camps".
- fully privatize elections - charge $100 to cast a vote.
- lawmakers allowed to sell votes on EBay.
we're just giving the Bushies a healthy dose of BIG FAT IRONY. Big, long, thick, meaty irony.
Which is much harder that a Woody.
And I do not feel their pain. No, I do not.
It seems I hit a home run on the first swing.
Don't take your guilt out on me Monica. I'm not the one who voted against your right to marry. If you think the election's outcome would have been the same had gay marriage not been an issue then I'll read your theories with great interest.
But the truth is, while I was voting against the anti-gay marriage amendment here in Kentucky, It's quite obvious that a recognizable percentage of Kerry voters in Ohio, Michigan, and Oregon voted in support of the ban.
Direct your guilt at them, not me.
I applaud your efforts, but I wanted the suggestion made that we shouldn't set fire to the house until after we're all safely outside with fire extinquishers in hand to put it out.
That this issue came out when there was little to nothing Democrats could do to support you or provide damage control suggests you and we both lack the long term vision to realize that maybe some issues should be put off until there are people in power to make it work.
If the logic flies over your head then too bad.
Oh. As for the front of the bus comment. It doesn't apply to someone with my heritage.
MYOB'
.
I didn't understand a word of that comment, anonymous. Not a word.
Not surprising.
And as long as we're at it, it's hard to say who's more fucking pathetic: the moronic brownshirt fucks pretending to be "outraged" at the "gaybashing" (as they size Silly Sully and friends for a lampshade), or the handwringing moderate capitulators pissed that gays dared to take the constitution seriously.
Fuck both camps in hell. Don't like it, take a fucking hike...
As for the front of the bus comment. It doesn't apply to someone with my heritage.
Scum is scum, no matter the "heritage."
End. Of. Story.
Not surprising.
Not an answer, dickhead.
Off our meds, are we?
When does Countdown repeat on the east coast? 10 or 11?
I suspect that this thread is confused.
Isn't this more germane to the thread about Crazy Andy below?
Which part of Bush's agenda will he more forcefully push for with this ManDate? Kickboxer Jockstraps or "rough play: boned by college jocks?"
I'm going with the jock boning.
Monica NYC
It's nice to have 2/3 of the Holy Trinity of Monicas here today. My husband and I had a couple of beers to celebrate my birthday and for some strange reason "MacArthur Park" started to swirl in my head. I'm not drunk or a troll. I was feeling a bit buzzed when I wrote that post. Sorry if I confused anyone.
This is beginning to sound like a verbal brawl in here. Anybody breaks anything, your paying for it.
(Damn there went the mirror again)
What dave said.
I think you're confused, Jeremiah.
Multiple personalities?
And the longer we shoot at each other the longer Rove and Osama can laugh.
Come on, people. Homosexuals aren't the enemy.You know what lost John Kerry the bigot vote? He had the unmitigated gall to stand up and say we're all God's children, right there on national teevee and everything,and some of us are homosexual 'cause God made us that way.
you know what wingers do with the debris after their heads explode?
they steal elections HARDER.
Osama bin Laden is out there making video tapes three years after The Useless Shrubya swore to smoke him out, and we're beating the crap out of each damn other?
No wonder we got last Tuesday. Oh, and chimpy mcflightsuit the wonder wastrel still ain't coughin' up harbor inspectors, or makin' good his promises to first responders or AIDS victims or seniors or even the rightwing religious zealots. So whether you elected a good blue rep or senator or you're stuck with the hogslop red pigsnot-for-brains jerkoff your neighbors want to follow to Jeebus ... undo your anteriors from your posteriors. They Republicans are 51 percent of the voters. The Dems are 49. The way for us to be 52 percent in the next election is to stand hand-in-hand, shoulder-to-shoulder, and damn well stay on our message.
Otherwise we'll be right back here in 11/06 feeling like hammered dog spit and going: "What the hell happened?"
The republicans stole the election, in several states. Problmes in & counties in NC alone. The computer geeks are crunching the numbers & gathering evidence. Today I learned the difference between "suspicious" and "valid" voter "irregularities".
Be very, very attentive. IMO, this is civil war, part 2, phase 2. Ask your black friends. They seem to actually remember not being able to vote. Most of America is yet to wake up.
You know, 4legs, that's the thing about Orcs. Once you harvest them from the ground to go vote for you, they're kinda hard to get rid of. Anybody know some Ents?
Try this on for size | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 9:31 pm | #
No comparison whatsoever.
I'm getting used to the specious arguments passed on this board. But I stick around cause at least they're not as idiotic as those on most other boards.
Tena,
If the idea that it didn't have any effect on the election was discussed. Please reiterate what you know. I'm willing to listen if you're willing to talk about it.
MYOB'
.
I really hate a particular argument being made here, the one that the gays should hide out because they're bad for the overall success of the party.
Feminism pulled that shit in the 70s. A supposed "dyke" agenda was bad for the "real" feminists pushing "straight" issues (aka pro-choice).
We lost the election. Could we please, PLEASE not lose our backbone too?
Ohhh...geee.
Gay people lost the election?
weblackey
You damn straight HELPED. (And I'd better warn you: I have had a week to recover from the Big-Ass Haymaker, and I now have my mojo back, so do not think that because you belong to a minority I generally fight for, that you can somehow shame me into feeling Straight White Guilt, or I'll shove your fucking Billie Holiday collection up whatever orifice does NOT give you pleasure! Umm ... fuck with ME?? )
(Ahem...) Now that I have made my measured position on this clear: I'm firmly of the belief that the election was Diebolded. Yet another spot-on prediction, made months ago!
But this entails more than merely hacking a computer; you have to start with an election where the two opponents are only several points, one side or another, in proximity to each other. Then you use your electronic shenanigans to make it look like a SLIGHT numerical victory.
So, we had no room to lose votes for no good reason. Let me be clear, weblackey... if you know that there's a pile of citizens in Edge Cities across America who will freak out when the R's put a flyer on their windshields with a picture of Adam and Steve, Frenching... YOU... DON'T... FUCKING... GIVE... THEM... THE... ISSUE!
I suppose you wouldn't rather have fought the battle for civil equality under a President Kerry, than to try NOW just not to get rounded up and put in a camp for the terminally stylish??
Winners pick and choose their battles, weblackey, and know when to wait for the day when they will have enough... oh, how you say?... POLITICAL CAPITAL to mount their tough fight. Losers, uh, don't.
What, am I the only citizen of this dump who found it SLIGHTLY FISHY that you **NEVER** heard or saw the phrase "gay marriage" in mainstream media, before this particular... um... ELECTION year of 2004? Really? Was I wearing tinfoil millinery?
The daily pounding of "GAYMARRIAGEGAYMARRIAGE" on the nation's telescreens obviously lost us some fence-sitters. And as I've said, losing voters not good. But the R's now have a new meme: it was the D's relentless quest for Sanctified Flamboyancy that offended the good and decent farmhands of Amurica.
Let's be clear again: I think that's bullshit, too. But let's see how many mainstream politicans are gonna be going out on a limb, fighting for your sorry gay ass, NOW. Send me a list of 'em.
I said it then, and no. fucking. buddy listened: BE HEP TO THE JIVE.
Olbermann was awesome tonight. Hey, why don't you guys lay off of the south. Number one, we really don't know how the vote went until we look at the numbers; some southern states may have actually gone to Kerry. Yea, I'm talking fraud. Olbermann went out on a limb tonight. Wonder who else is going to have the guts to do so?
As long as you're spending time bashing the south, or "rednecks", or whatever group, you're not refining your message.
Yes, it was definitely gay folks that lost the election for us. Specifically, it was one of the posters here on Eschaton who forced us past the tipping point. I've almost got it narrowed down, just as soon as my statistical analysis is finished running, I'll have the name of the gay person who finally broke the camel's back. Any second now....
Here's the printout - it says:
"Get a life."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The name stealers are back!!!!! I agree with anon at 9:52, but I am the great anonymous commenter here at eschaton and I didn't make that post. Please, people, just because anonymous is the default setting here doesn't give YOU the right to use it. I am anonymous - the rest of you need to get your own, "clever" name! oh, but you are so right on about that tena...
Jeez, too much wine: election problems in *7* NC counties. Under investigation.
FL is a mess: 13 counties had more votes than voters, equalling almost 40% of the total vote.
Not the gays' fault.
MYOB
Are you saying you're black?
Let me remind you that the South went Republican only after the Civil Rights act passed. And entirely because of civil rights.
Couldn't you just use a different toilet for a little while?
Didn't think so. So shut up.
EkCenTrik - at least they are over here breaking Atrios' stuff again, instead of spilling drinks all over First-Draft. LOL.
Okay everyone, listen for a second. The solution to the gay issue is not to abandon them, that means you lose voters. Nor can you run from the issue, you will look weak.
What has the Bush camp done to look good? They play with language to make something look different.
We are not a Christian nation, we are a Republic whose laws allows for secular views.
When pushed on homosexual marriage, Democrats need to fire back that merging religion and government is a horrible idea that always results in destroying the government. The position is that no change should be made, that we as a free nation, should allow others to do as they please as long as they do not violate the rights of another citizen. That is the position.
That position is pro-constitution and pro-Republic, the Republican position is one of pro-Theocracy and against the main position of the declaration of independence: "the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."
When they bring up this subject they play their theocracy hand, and we must call it! We are secularists, not fundamentalists.
By simply changing the language of the debate you turn a weak point into a strong point not only by not changing positions, but by taking on a new position.
Fuck both camps in hell. Don't like it, take a fucking hike...
More lovely irony.
Didn't it used to say "Don't Feed the Trolls" at the top of the comments?
About playing dirty and funding a far-right party: it doesn't actually stop anyone voting Republican, it doesn't trick anyone (since the party would be real, and could theoretically hold power), so it's actually a lot less dirty than what gets thrown the other way.
It does two things: it bleeds some extreme support from the Republicans, and it forces the Repubs to campaign right to stop the bleeding (no, I can't really see how they could go much further right, either.)
ecoast: the Countdown repeat isn't until midnight ET. Sorry.
* * *
Oh, and let's all just give up the issues most important to us so we can get back in power. Let's give up on equal rights for those inconvenient gays, reproductive rights, the war, tax policy... yeah, sure, we coulda WON if we'd given up any of those. Whoops, who will we be THEN?
Is anyone else having trouble getting to
Tena
So that is why First Draft smelled a bit like scotch and gin.
Well let em beat themselves silly. Families do that, but it hell to pay when someone from outside decides to do the beating. Unity is sometimes messy.
Something the Right doesn't actually get. You can only close order drill a group so long and they begin to defect.
The Left doesn't have that problem.
As can be seen in progress here.
And as long as we're at it, it's hard to say who's more fucking pathetic: the moronic brownshirt fucks pretending to be "outraged" at the "gaybashing" (as they size Silly Sully and friends for a lampshade), or the handwringing moderate capitulators pissed that gays dared to take the constitution seriously.
Fuck both camps in hell. Don't like it, take a fucking hike...
dave | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 9:53 pm | #
For crying out loud. This is the worst means of communication ever created. I was just trying to imply jokingly that I wished the issue hadn't come out till after Kerry was in office. That it came out before was just more ammo for the hatemongers. You don't put out fires with gasoline people, even if it does feal wet enough to do the job.
If you want to slit your own throats I suggest you do it on your own time.
I'm not going to walk up to a Klan meeting and ask them where the white chicks are got it? In this country under a religious moron who the dominionists are drooling over to manipulate you don't give them reason to pull the trigger.
We pick the time and place of our battles.
Oh and Dave. You are in no position to make any comparisons. Really you aren't. It's like smokers complaining that even european jews never had this bad. There is no comparison.
MYOB'
.
I'm very disappointed in this thread; nice smile notwithstanding Mr December owes more to steroids than to gym time, and those back issues cost a fortune
I'm not drunk or a troll. I was feeling a bit buzzed when I wrote that post. Sorry if I confused anyone.
Monica A
No problem on the Troll front, there; we recognized ya.
But that song......
Excellent Time for Some Civil Disobedience
See http://www.turnyourbackonbush.org
..
Barry, while I admire your enthusiasm you regrettably don't know what the flying fuck you're talking about.
Mass started gay marriage because of a court case started by individual citizens denied their rights. The SJC made a decision because the case came up on their docket. Perhaps you propose a test at the courtroom door to determine sexual orientation before a suit can be filed. Or perhaps you prefer that a state supreme court caucus with the DNC before rendering a decision. Good luck on that.
Second, none of those bills that drew homophobes to the polls were written by gay marriage advocates. Those measures banned gay marriage and they were written by the haters. *They* made it an issue this year, not gay people. And in case you don't remember, ROve did the same thing to Ann Richards in a fake whispering campaign in Texas.
Any more of this crap and gay people should start endorsing Republicans.
Tena,
If the idea that it didn't have any effect on the election was discussed. Please reiterate what you know. I'm willing to listen if you're willing to talk about it.
We lost the election. Could we please, PLEASE not lose our backbone too?
Thanks. I agree.
Hello, I am danny, ph.d. student at Southern Illinois
University, studying mass communication. I am
conducting an online survey about media use and
motivations during this years presidential election.
Please click on the below URL address and take a few
minutes for me. If not working, please copy the
address and put it to URL
I know that the internet is a global medium, but this survey is for only those eligible for voting this year's presidential election.
There is no information identifying your personal factors and the data will be kept confidential. This survey has been approved by Human Subject committee at SIU.
I really appreciate your help. Thanks.
http://lawson-
hall.lawson.siu.ed...d=1099375882781
Barry Champlain,
Daayam...that's an awful lot of attention I just got?
Your post is the reason I like to hang out with drunk or high people....you're making me laugh my ass off.
Plain and simple...if it weren't this bigot issue that the Repubs took, it would have been another. Any minority is handy...
And really, no one wants to make you feel guilty about being white...you can't help it any more than I can...and who the hell is Billie Holiday? (kidding)
Is anyone else having trouble getting to
Any more of this crap and gay people should start endorsing Republicans.
Smallbottle | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 10:09 pm | #
yeah right.
Blackboxvoting?I cant get there!
No problem on the Troll front, there; we recognized ya.
But that song......
I know, Doozer. "Someone left the cake out in the rain..." What the hell does that mean and why in the hell should I care? I just couldn't get it out of my head. Gay people can't change their sexual preference anymore than I can change being black. It's genetics.
Tena,
If the idea that it didn't have any effect on the election was discussed. Please reiterate what you know. I'm willing to listen if you're willing to talk about it.
Hell-o-scan cut me off. Don't hold your breath waiting for an intellegent reply there buckaroo. She had a good comment on another thread about a farmer tuggin' on his beefstick, but don't expect anything better than that.
Atrios was right to leave for a few days. I suggest everyone disappear for a while. John Kerry style.
I'm serious. Weapons-grade propaganda war going on right now. Nothing coming out of the TV is of any value. Nobody's brain is safe.
shit...I'm so proud of that ass chewin...I'm putting it on my blog!
If local jurisdictions decide to push an issue (gay marriage) the national party has little to say about the matter. At least, the Democratic party. We are not fascists who flit around the country leaning on our fellow party members to fall in line. Tom Delay anyone?
Second, none of those bills that drew homophobes to the polls were written by gay marriage advocates. Those measures banned gay marriage and they were written by the haters. *They* made it an issue this year, not gay people. And in case you don't remember, ROve did the same thing to Ann Richards in a fake whispering campaign in Texas.
Smallbottle | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 10:09 pm | #
So we are resorting to the chicken and the egg argument now?
Gay people can't change their sexual preference anymore than I can change being black. It's genetics.
Really? What's Anne Heche's view on this?
shit...I'm so proud of that ass chewin
You're proud of getting your ass chewed?
Sleep with and marry whoever you want, I don't care, just stay away from my husband and kid.
Smalfish: I can't get BBV to open, either. You can grab the cache off Google right now but that's it.
Here is my husband's theory on marriage: if you have found the person that you're completely content with the prospect of them driving you insane, then by God you should marry them. Everybody deserves their season in Purgatory, straigh or gay.
Most of what I'm hearing in the national discourse shoudn't even be dignified with a response. Cloud cuckoo land stuff about mandates and abandoning civil rights.
Who are they trying to kid?
how about them eagles?
Oh and Dave. You--
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzz...
She had a good comment on another thread about a farmer tuggin' on his beefstick, but don't expect anything better than that.
Anyone with half a brain knew instantly that wasn't Tena.
A sexual experience does not a sexual orientation make.
I've fucked men. I'm a lesbian. There's no contradiction.
"none of those bills that drew homophobes to the polls were written by gay marriage advocates."
Nor did they come from some grass roots campaign withing the states that had the measure on the ballot. They came straight from Washington D.C. and the RNC.
When the ballot measure was challenged in Arkansas the two lawyers challenging it were from Little Rock. Of the TWELVE lawyers that argued to keep it on the ballot, one was an Ark lawyer and the other ELEVEN were D.C. lawyers.
Josh Wand: That's fucking great. And I'm from Texas.
Hell-o-scan cut me off. Don't hold your breath waiting for an intellegent reply there buckaroo. She had a good comment on another thread about a farmer tuggin' on his beefstick, but don't expect anything better than that.
Echilles | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 10:14 pm | #
Tena has more common sense than 20 or more of the rest of you. She is also one of the more civil and patient members of this board. I respect her opinions cause 99.999% of the time they're right. Since I prefer to be in the right rather than the wrong, I'm always willing to wait and listen to those person's whose opinions have been backed up with facts rather than quick overreactions cause you don't like the tone of a person's comment.
The fact of the matter is that my first comment was in jest. But if you're going to miss that point and insult me then too bad. I can go for the jugular too. It's way too easy when you're not facing that person live and in color.
MYOB'
.
Josh Wand: That's fucking great. And I'm from Texas.
Half a brain Silleigh? Since when were trolls that well endowed?
Tena has more common sense than 20 or more of the rest of you. She is also one of the more civil and patient members of this board. I respect her opinions cause 99.999% of the time they're right.
Okay, now we know you're a troll.
You don't understand...no one cared about me until I singlehandedly cause the fall of the Democratic party in 04!
At least now I'm being threatened...
/kidding
Dr. P, I stand corrected.
This election was stolen?
Duh.
Elections have been stolen from the beginning, and the number increased once machines were involved.
Once we wak up to this fact we might get somewhere. Someone should have the guts to do the rightr thing and replace the system with one beyond reproach.
But nobody will as long as one can cheat and win.
Hello, I am danny, ph.d. student at Southern Illinois University, studying mass communication. I am conducting an online survey about media use and motivations during this years presidential election.
Hi Danny! Thank you for your spam.
Welcome to the Academy! By now you should realize that your thesis isn't all that groundbreaking or even interesting for that matter. Hopefully the grim understanding that no one in the Academy will ever read your research except for the editor at South Midwest Mass Communication Letters and Review will subside.
Have fun finding a tenure track position!
Thanks Silleigh
Is there a specific reason their site is down or is the EFFA BEE EYE involved with them again?
Now that we think about it. I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to ensure that any controversial issues like gay marriage be put off and pushed out of the public limelight until *after* democrats take back either the WH or congress.
I hesitate to tangle with MYOB after last time he said something that pissed me off - 'cause God knows it went nowhere at all - but this is absolute bullshit. You don't stick a finger into the wind in order to decide when and where to fight for human rights; you do it every chance you get, because it's the right thing to do and because you're a weaker and worse person when you ignore your responsibility to be moral.
Rove and his clowns would've sent the same fliers and made the same calls no matter what we'd done. Seems to me we didn't want to ban the Bible or allow OBL free rein or let France run our foreign policy, but we got accused of all three, and a lot of stupid people believed it. If we hadn't made gay marriage an issue, Rove or Falwell would've.
Comments like MYOB's viscerally disgust me. "Progressives" who fall for his logic DESERVE to lose. But the fact remains that with a little less ELECTION FRAUD, the gay-rights issue would've been quite a bit less damaging.
Really...that comment was just complete and utter bullshit.
Pardon linklessness but we are dead certain we've seen that intro (earnest young grad student doing "research") before. Not like there's any shortage of civilian, goateed, fat, khaki and Tommy wearing Nazis on ouer "liberal" campuses. Is it familiar to anyone else?
If blackboxvoting is down, it is within the realm of possibility that it is some sort of electrical problem. They do happen, you know
Really? What's Anne Heche's view on this?
That she swings both ways and enjoys it? That's a preference too.
you do it every chance you get, because it's the right thing to do and because you're a weaker and worse person when you ignore your responsibility to be moral.
Mr. Nader, glad to have you here with us this evening!
As it should be IMHO...
If the reason for banning gay marriage is based upon the bible, then it's fair to say that marriage is religious institution. As such, it's fair to say that no Government operating under the United States constitution should establish any marriage. I would favor that the Government recognize and record civil unions for all couples. Marriages can be reserved for those wishing to subsequently sanctify their union before God.
I'm breaking my rule about answering anonymous posters. Anonymous, if you have nothing constructive to add to Danny's research then don't write anything at all. At least the guy had the guts to post his name. All you've done is troll around the site looking to interject your sophomoric remarks anonymously, might I add. Shut up and leave the guy alone.
Just have all your gays take a loyalty oath to act hetero next election, or just stay out of sight until the voting is done. And if anyone points out that they're gay, act really outraged and call them "bad". Really, it'll work!
Smalfish: Damned if I know. We can always hope they're being overloaded with donations, I guess.
* * *
Y'know, just sayin', one really nice part of visiting First Draft more than usual last weekend was the REGISTRATION. I'm really, really over the lame-ass name-stealers, trying to sort through piles of Anonymice, etc.
Mr. Nader, glad to have you here with us this evening!
Anonymous
Yeah, Nader's been a tireless voice for sexual freedom, hasn't he?
You don't stick a finger into the wind in order to decide when and where to fight for human rights
I agree -- but I don't think the butt-bangers or carpet lickers are really human. After all, would we even be a species if we all just went after gonads like our own? It is disappointing to hear that people say you cannot be a democrat without supporting homosexual lifestyles. Sexual orientation issues, at the expense of our national security, economic growth, fiscal responsibility, quality education, health care, and fair tax policies is INSANITY!
Sweet baby Ghandi!
Now that we think about it. I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to ensure that any controversial issues like gay marriage be put off and pushed out of the public limelight until *after* democrats take back either the WH or congress.
You mean like in 1995, when the Democratic Senate passed DOMA and the Democratic President Bill Clinton signed that piece of shit?
Hey, the Dems just lost an election by 2%-3%. Do you think it's wise to go around kicking a huge Democratic constituency?
BTW, what conclusive proof do you have that we queer folk tore your playhouse down? It couldn't have been the politically uneducated, who simply didn't want to change leaders because it would let Saddam Bin Laden think he'd won? Or possibly Cahill's UNFORGIVABLE Dukakis redux with respect to the SBVT in August?
Keep kicking queers. You think the Greens were a problem in 2000? Continue singling out gays for the Democratic Party's ills the same way the GOP scapegoats us for the country's problems, and next election you'll see what a DEAD Democratic Party looks like.
All you've done is troll around the site looking to interject your sophomoric remarks anonymously, might I add. Shut up and leave the guy alone.
Monica A
I am so glad you have finally recognized my place as THE eschaton ANONYMOUS commenter. ALL THESE COMMENTS ARE MINE and you WILL RECOGNIZE MY AUTHORITY. Thanks Monica
Mr. Murphy,
You do not have to support the gay lifestyle, but you must recognize that they are free to live their lives as they see fit. If they aren't hurting anyone why should I care who a person choses to love? All of the issues you list are quite important and should be addressed, but you must have equal treatment for all before you can aspire to such lofty ideals for society.
but I don't think
That's crystal clear, "Mr. Murphy."
TROLL CLEAN-UP ON AISLE 10:35
Priorities -
Election reform; MEDIA REFORM...
Diagram the following sentence:
If one individual wants to fuck another individual(s?), it's really not anybody's fucking business unless they are one of those fucking individuals.
I'm so bored with all of this.
You guys let me know when the trolls go back under their bridges.
Until then I don't want to think about fucking "values" any longer.
I have no interest in debating values with people who rubberstamped Abu Ghraib.
Stupid, stupid fucking halfwits yacking about the sanctity of marriage make me utterly sick. Stats show that *Christians* have far more divorces than any other segment of Amurkins.
So, there. And bite me.
Though I have to say if Larry Flynt were to come up with some juicy stuff I might perk back to life.
Sexual orientation issues, at the expense of our national security, economic growth, fiscal responsibility, quality education, health care, and fair tax policies is INSANITY!
It's not a sexual orientation issue, it's a constitutional issue. How unpopular groups are treated is an excellent measure of the health of a democracy, and the population's overall safety from tyranny.
Interestingly, you ignored my actual point. We're going to get attacked with gay-baiting paranoia no matter what we do, so we may as well fight for our actual position instead of looking like sneaks and cowards as well as queer-lovers.
For the love of all that is holy, would it fucking kill you to put a NSFW tag?
Yeah, Nader's been a tireless voice for sexual freedom, hasn't he?
Here's his position:
http://votenader.org/issues/inde...ndex.php?
cid=19
Where do Kerry and Bush stand?
Oh, and you missed the point, but this is not unusual.
Now, compare the statement I previously quoted:
"you do it every chance you get, because it's the right thing to do and because you're a weaker and worse person when you ignore your responsibility to be moral."
with the following:
"They told African Americans and women 'to wait' when they wanted the right to vote. They told students during Viet Nam, and they told the civil rights and labor leaders that it wasnt 'the right time.' The quest for justice doesnt take a holiday."
Yeah, Nader's been a tireless voice for sexual freedom, hasn't he?
Here's his position:
http://votenader.org/issues/inde...ndex.php?
cid=19
Where do Kerry and Bush stand?
Oh, and you missed the point, but this is not unusual.
Now, compare the statement I previously quoted:
"you do it every chance you get, because it's the right thing to do and because you're a weaker and worse person when you ignore your responsibility to be moral."
with the following:
"They told African Americans and women 'to wait' when they wanted the right to vote. They told students during Viet Nam, and they told the civil rights and labor leaders that it wasnt 'the right time.' The quest for justice doesnt take a holiday."
Silleigh: sorry for delay: was out grocerying.
del.icio.us is a "social bookmark manager--" you create an account, and bookmark stuff.
When you create a bookmark, you assign each entry some "tags," or keywords, that tell you what the link is about-- sort of like a category.
The cool thing is that there are tens of thousands of people who use the service-- and you can see what other people have bookmarked and tagged.
type in del.icio.us/tag/politics+video to see every single link that has been assigned the tags "politics" and "video." Repeat for any other subject you're interested in.
You can also subscribe, via RSS, to any tag, combination of tags, or to any one user's tag or tags.
Poke around for a while-- it took me several months to really get used to it and use it in all the possible cool ways.
Barry, while I admire your enthusiasm you regrettably don't know what the flying fuck you're talking about.
That has never stopped anyone here, before!
Mass started gay marriage because of a court case started by individual citizens denied their rights...
For that matter, Matt Drudge (just ignore his sexuality for a moment, please) regularly finds all sorts of progressive issues in his travels, that he re-markets to offend the hater base. Mass may well have been involved in a gay marriage debate... civil unions were a valid issue in several places... but these weren't the topics of every late night monologue and editorial page before this year.
It takes work, and it takes professionals, for ANY phenomenon, from gay marriage to Britney Spears' marriage, to become top-of-mind "water cooler talk" in a nation of a few hundred million people.
perhaps you prefer that a state supreme court caucus with the DNC before rendering a decision.
No, but it's no longer unreasonable to expect party activists to sing from the same page. I recall watching with recoiling horror, as maverick mayors and gay rights activists shoved gay marriage in America's face, all year long. All I can say is: if Karl Rove had been working for us, he sure as damn well would have coordinated an effort to keep gay marriage activists as quiet during the campaign as he kept Tom DeLay.
Second, none of those bills that drew homophobes to the polls were written by gay marriage advocates. Those measures banned gay marriage and they were written by the haters. *They* made it an issue this year, not gay people.
Penny for your thoughts: WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY DID THAT? I am not teaching Realpolitik 101 here. Ask someone else why all those swing states had homophobic measures on the ballot. And the name of the guy who is widely understood to have shepherded them there, stealthily.
And in case you don't remember, ROve did the same thing to Ann Richards in a fake whispering campaign in Texas.
Oh, then you KNOW? How then, pray tell, is his little scheme to bring out the haters lost on you?
Any more of this crap and gay people should start endorsing Republicans.
ROFL! YOU FUCKING DO THAT! That's just crazy talk. Jews for Hitler! Yeah, I love it; go for it. Become a kicker piece on Fox News. See if I care.
(Did I mention that you just don't get it?)
Ahhh...the language is getting dangerous.
I'm hearing terms like the "gay solution"
and they may not be human?
need I say more...okay, I will.
Missouri has already proven that many Democrats do not support gay rights...the election before last was a heavy Dem vote...and the "homosexuals will not be allowed to marry" hate amendment passed with 70-30% support.
There's no expectation that all voters are educated or empathetic to civil liberties. By the way...those same Dems that voted me out of a variety of freedoms and rights last August...
picked Kerry for his plan last week.
Barry, while I admire your enthusiasm you regrettably don't know what the flying fuck you're talking about.
That has never stopped anyone here, before!
Mass started gay marriage because of a court case started by individual citizens denied their rights...
For that matter, Matt Drudge (just ignore his sexuality for a moment, please) regularly finds all sorts of progressive issues in his travels, that he re-markets to offend the hater base. Mass may well have been involved in a gay marriage debate... civil unions were a valid issue in several places... but these weren't the topics of every late night monologue and editorial page before this year.
It takes work, and it takes professionals, for ANY phenomenon, from gay marriage to Britney Spears' marriage, to become top-of-mind "water cooler talk" in a nation of a few hundred million people.
perhaps you prefer that a state supreme court caucus with the DNC before rendering a decision.
No, but it's no longer unreasonable to expect party activists to sing from the same page. I recall watching with recoiling horror, as maverick mayors and gay rights activists shoved gay marriage in America's face, all year long. All I can say is: if Karl Rove had been working for us, he sure as damn well would have coordinated an effort to keep gay marriage activists as quiet during the campaign as he kept Tom DeLay.
Second, none of those bills that drew homophobes to the polls were written by gay marriage advocates. Those measures banned gay marriage and they were written by the haters. *They* made it an issue this year, not gay people.
Penny for your thoughts: WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY DID THAT? I am not teaching Realpolitik 101 here. Ask someone else why all those swing states had homophobic measures on the ballot. And the name of the guy who is widely understood to have shepherded them there, stealthily.
And in case you don't remember, ROve did the same thing to Ann Richards in a fake whispering campaign in Texas.
Oh, then you KNOW? How then, pray tell, is his little scheme to bring out the haters lost on you?
Any more of this crap and gay people should start endorsing Republicans.
ROFL! YOU FUCKING DO THAT! That's just crazy talk. Jews for Hitler! Yeah, I love it; go for it. Become a kicker piece on Fox News. See if I care.
(Did I mention that you just don't get it?)
"You don't stick a finger into the wind in order to decide when and where to fight for human rights; you do it every chance you get, because it's the right thing to do and because you're a weaker and worse person when you ignore your responsibility to be moral."
That's true, but to use my previous analogy, I don't think even you are insane enough to walk into a 1960's Mississippi KKK meeting and try to convince them they're wrong about negros. It's the right thing to do of course. You're standing up for what is right. But what good would it do you or anyone else if you're dead as a result? Maybe if you had walked into that meeting with about 50 like minded people they would have stood there and listend and you'd walk out alive. But to go it alone is suicide. I know the timing of the issue was accidental, but what happened in California only pissed off so many people it meant we'd have to bring out 100x more than what we might have had to bring out in order to win.
Now it's too late. Four more years of this crap.
Tell me honestly and truthfully whether you wish the issue had or hadn't existed?
So far I'm betting that most of the people on this board are far less willing to admit they wished it would only have waited till we had a majority *somewhere* in which to ensure a fair fight.
MYOB'
.
this gay-bashing from all perspectives must end.
it astonishes me that these supposed xtrians think that they know the deity's will.
the god i know likes being well-tailored. likes a well-decorated residence. enjoys the theater. enjoys music. enjoys paintings. enjoys sculpture.
enjoys a good laugh. enjoys a good meal. enjoys a good bottle of wine.
my god is a bon viveur.
and my god is the true god.
i don't pretend to know how the fascist bastids care to live their lives. but my guess is that i would not enjoy visiting them in their domains. would not enjoy breaking bread with them.
could not enjoy discussing ideas with them.
anyone disagree with this assessment? if so, please explain why you think that fascist bastids are worthy of your love and respect.
see my ak47? what is it good for?
If I have to choose between gays or these people who say we should not support gays - I'll stick with the gays. Instead of pitching them aside, let's get rid of the remaining homophobes.
Perhaps someone who is socially conservative can explain why I should care what conseting adults choose to do with their bodies? I know nothing about these people other than their sexual orientation and you expect me to make life alterating decisions for them based upon that? Why should the United States put precious resources to issues like fighting gay marriage and abortion? How does that increase our position in the world? Please explain.
Remind me if my rememberin's off, but didn't the whole "gay marriage" hoo-hah start because some folks in Massachusettes challenged the state law against gay marriage and the state supreme court said, "Nope, not consistent with the the state constitution. Either change the law or change the constitution"? Isn't that basically how it all kicked off? Not "activist judges" at all, just judges doing their job, best I can tell.
Now, all the "anti-gay" ammendments to state constitutions, those came from "conservative activists", like here in Georgia, where everything else is so groovy-cool that we can waste time, money and energy making it against the constitution for two dudes to get hitched. Can't fund our schools worth a fuck or balance our budget or take care of our roads or fund DMAT, but we can make sure homos don't get married, by God.
Me, I say let whoever wants to get married do so. I sure as hell ain't.
TROLL CLEAN-UP ON AISLE 10:35
excellent
Umm, I am just raising my head after the past week in hell.
Thanks Atrios for coming back, it has been a very painful and tender experience for me too.
In the words of Richard Gere in an officer and a gentleman,
"I ain't gonna quit, I ain't got nowhere else to go."
Well, we will rise again fellow dems, fellow vets.
Shadenfreude is the watchword til 08.
And two words,
"Diebold delivered"
Josh: Thank you. It looks... gigantic.
albert, weren't you off to the cote d'azur? What are you doing back so soon?
There are too many trolls in these comments. Makes them rather unreadable. Hmm that's their goal.
It's not a sexual orientation issue, it's a constitutional issue. How unpopular groups are treated is an excellent measure of the health of a democracy, and the population's overall safety from tyranny.
Last I checked -- the constitution does not give me the right to put a dick anywhere I want nor does it give me the right to lick any carpet. GET REAL!!!!! The founding fathers knew what homosexuality was, maybe there were even some queers among them. They did not write about "life, liberty, and pursuit of passionate gay sex" and any interpretation of the document that wants to say otherwise is clearly outside of the mainstream.
I agree with Backslider. I truly am in love with my husband, but there are days when I ask "what the fuck was I thinking?" And I know there are days when he's thinking the same thing.
I'd like to make a comment wrt the whole tedious gays? With us or against us? issue.
We should all hang together, or we shall assuredly hang separately.
Thank you.
Going back to the grave, now.
10. No one ever steals your chair.
9. Gives "bad hair day" a whole new meaning.
8. Diverts attention from the fact that you also came to work drunk.
7. People stop stealing your pens after they've seen where you keep them.
6. You want to see if it's like the dream.
5. To stop those creepy programmer guys from looking down your blouse.
4. "I'd love to chip in... but I left my wallet in my pants."
3. Inventive way to finally meet that 'special' person in Human Resources.
2. Can take advantage of your computer monitor radiation to work on your tan.
1. Your boss will never say, "I wanna see your ass in here by 8:00!" ever again.
Yeah you will rise again with that lunatic Dean as your party chair.
He is a good choice after running a traitor that admits meeting with terrorists while we are at war with them. Send his ass to jail, now.
Book em Dano!
Kerry's position on gay marriage was just fine, Anon. Nader's position is gloriously irrelevant and emotionally suspect, like most of his pronouncements.
On top of which, Nader's evinced a creepy puritanical streak on a few occasions. Seems to be some kind of weird sexual sublimation going on with him all these years...maybe that's why he's so fucking nuts. He's like something out of Foxe's "Acts and Monuments," only not interesting.
Now it's too late. Four more years of this crap.
The SBVT launched in August, and Kerry, at Cahill's direction, remained silent. So he looked like (A) the SBVT was telling the truth; or (B) Kerry was too spineless to fight them.
Hardball for the next four years - it's time to drop the big O-bomb on the closeted Reps that have been suckling of the fundie teat for a bit too long. No more Mr. Nice Dem. Let the outing begin in earnest until these motherfuckers say uncle.
Whoops, that's supposed to have a header "Top Ten Reasons to Go to Work Naked."
I haven't laughed at much for the last week or so; this did it for me. Seems appropriate to this thread too.
COME ON GIMMIE A NOT
SAFE FOR WORK HERE!!!!
Ah, shit. OBL pops out of his li'l jack-inna-box close enough to Hallowe'en as makes no difference, scares enough idiots to give Bush the PopVote, and some dingleberries wanna blame the gays. Fuck you using for brains?
What part of BOO! is slippin' past ya?
Now, if he'd gone "BooOOo! you sweet savage!", and bent a wrist, well, maybe. But he didn't, so fuck off.
Mr. Murphy,
You can put your penis anywhere you like as long as you don't cause harm to anyone else. If you want to go stick your member in a light socket you have the right to do so. However, you cannot force any unwilling person to have your penis stuck anywhere near them. There really was no other way for me to write that. I hope I didn't offend anyone.
Ah, shit. OBL pops out of his li'l jack-inna-box close enough to Hallowe'en as makes no difference, scares enough idiots to give Bush the PopVote, and some dingleberries wanna blame the gays. Fuck you using for brains?
What part of BOO! is slippin' past ya?
Now, if he'd gone "BooOOo! you sweet savage!", and bent a wrist, well, maybe. But he didn't, so fuck off.
The SBVT launched in August, and Kerry, at Cahill's direction, remained silent. So he looked like (A) the SBVT was telling the truth; or (B) Kerry was too spineless to fight them.
Oh, piffle. For all kinds of reasons, not least of which is, you're talking out of your ass. And why are you blaming the woman, anyway?
Possible drawback: they start a horrible new sort of "casual Friday."
Oh, piffle. For all kinds of reasons, not least of which is, you're talking out of your ass. And why are you blaming the woman, anyway?
Dr. Pedant | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 10:52 pm | #
I'm illustrating the point that in such a narrow loss, it is possible that just about anything done differntly may have changed the outcome.
Rove is laughing his ass off at Dems who have started turning on signficant elements of their own base.
Well, it's been fun...off to try to chat with my lesbian lover...I may not have the president that I want...but I intend on having the intimate lover I want.
Bye!
You can put your penis anywhere you like as long as you don't cause harm to anyone else.
Is that what the constitution says? Gee, they make such a big deal about sex ed in school. Maybe we should really be complaining about civics class. Sorry, you haven't convinced me that gay unions are more important than the issues Mr. Murphy wants to see the country address.
Last I checked -- the constitution does not give me the right to put a dick anywhere I want nor does it give me the right to lick any carpet.
Then one assumes you personally will give up whichever activity you prefer, right, since the Constitution doesn't devote a section to spelling out those specific rights? Good. I'd recommend celibacy for people like you.
::furiously searching the Constitution for the part that gives me the right to brush my teeth::
Poor Richard - Nice comment. I've been trying to say that for days, but it largely falls on deaf ears.
Doesn't matter because I'm not changing for anyone or anything. I believe that this country can in fact be the kind of country that I dream about - one where there is tolerance instead of bigotry. Furthermore, it will happen eventually.
Equal rights for gays and lesbians is coming - the rest of the world is already getting there and once we do, those who argued against this will find that they are looked upon just as racial bigots are looked up on now. Not favorably.
Dues always have to be paid for wrongs and they will be. eventually. Be careful - we need each other.
Heard on MSNBC a discussion about the "moral issues" equation in
the election...
55% of Americans believe abortion should be legal
60% believe in same-sex unions or marriage
68% support stem-cell research
So, how did the republicans win on moral issues?
Me, I say let whoever wants to get married do so. I sure as hell ain't.
Backslider
Same here, brother. I guess all those Vegas mariages are a sham. Ditto the Justice of the Peace and other forms of civil marriage.
I have a fundie aunt who dumped her husband and kids decades ago and lived with her now *husband* (civil marrriage)for 8 years before making it legal.
Last I checked -- the constitution does not give me the right to put a dick anywhere I want nor does it give me the right to lick any carpet.
Wow. Perhaps I need to re-read my copy of the Constituion. I don't remember seeing anything in it that said we had a right to blow jobs. Or doggy style. Or strap-ons. Or hand jobs. Or, for that matter, any sort of sexual activity, either for procreation or recreation. Well, shit...so does that mean no more fuckin' from anyone? What it does do, however, is limit the ability of government to restrict basic human rights. Hell, there's not a damn word about marriage in the Constitution either. Shit, guess that solves that problem.
Man, you "strict interpretation" types really are strict.
It isn't gays the Democrats need to throw overboard.
The simple fact is, it's blacks that are the real problem for Democrats. If the Democrats were not identified with black interests, with civil rights, we'd have the south and a lot of the West. Racism is widespread and deep-seated in the Red States. Picking up white southerners and westerners would more than offset losing black voters.
So, how's that for realpolitik?
And I guess I have to repeat this for the determined ignorant: even if Mass had not ruled on gay marriage, Rove would have made it his selling point, as he has again and again. Did you forget the U.S. Supreme Court overturned sodomy statutes? Guess they should have caucused with the DNC, too.
Joe M.,
The Civil War! Partly based upon a marginalized people wanting the rights accorded to others in society.
Silleigh,
Article 9. Part of the original Bill of Rights. "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "
Shaw, my friend, can you say "stolen election," part 2?
Last I checked -- the constitution does not give me the right to put a dick anywhere I want
Fine. Let's make adultery and premarital sex punishable by public beatings. Ditto for screwing inflatable women (just to bring the point a little closer to home for ya).
You know what I think's funny? I think it's funny that a homosexual can save straight people's lives day in and day out as a doctor or a firefighter or a police officer...and if they get sick or injured, the people they're in love with can't make medical decisions on their behalf.
You know why that's funny? 'Cause they're butt-bangers and carpet-lickers.
You should seriously consider dying young, Mr. Murphy. Seriously.
You get the same site from just Googling "Mandate" without Bush. "Kerry Mandate" gets the same, too.
Dumb, Atrios.
You get the same site from just Googling "Mandate" without Bush. "Kerry Mandate" gets the same, too.
Dumb, Atrios.
So, how did the republicans win on moral issues?
They don't.
For those who feel very strongly about these so called issues, they do well, but those people are what, maybe 20% of the voting population?
They win, like every winner, by bringing together a coalition of people with different views to vote for them.
In this case, They got 51% and lost 49%
I think it was fear mongering that pushed them over the edge.
I think we need to work on message, and get them back.
See Bill Clinton's comments in the AP story today.
My 2 cents.
Don't download Mozilla's Sage RSS reader. It's a piece of shit that will ruin your system.
furiously searching the Constitution for the part that gives me the right to brush my teeth
Exactly, you know-it-all jerk. Crest does not enjoy any constitutional protection -- sure, it upsets the American Dental Association - but the rest of us think that brushing your teeth should be a personal choice. In the meantime, we would like to talk about national issues that affect ALL OF US, like taxation, defense, security, education, job growth, the economy, integrity in government...
Phila,
I love ya. Well said, sista.
Exactly, you know-it-all jerk. Crest does not enjoy any constitutional protection -- sure, it upsets the American Dental Association - but the rest of us think that brushing your teeth should be a personal choice. In the meantime, we would like to talk about national issues that affect ALL OF US, like taxation, defense, security, education, job growth, the economy, integrity in government...
We can discuss both, and not even spill our lattes...
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "
If you think that gives people the right to gay unions, you are obviously not a doctor. I would prefer to read anonymous posts than fraudulent ones.
Dr. Pedant, thank you once again this evening. Hate it when my teeth get furry, but I wasn't about to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
it upsets the American Dental Association - but the rest of us think that brushing your teeth should be a personal choice.
Interesting analogy. I take your point to be that we should deny marriage rights to people with cavities? Or what?
Why can't you weirdos ever make the slightest bit of sense? It's like you're so obsessed with throbbing, spurting cocks that you can't form a coherent argument..
OKjackson said "When pushed on homosexual marriage, Democrats need to fire back that merging religion and government is a horrible idea that always results in destroying the government."
no, the point to make isn't that religion destroys government, it's that government destroys religion. That's a much easier sell, in that they already believe the government fucks up everything it touches anyway.
If you think that gives people the right to gay unions, you are obviously not a doctor. I would prefer to read anonymous posts than fraudulent ones.
Argolius | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 11:07 pm | #
I'm not so sure that it does, but can you explain how it prevents unions? Or what in the Constitution does?
If you think that gives people the right to gay unions, you are obviously not a doctor. I would prefer to read anonymous posts than fraudulent ones.
Lord, I've gotta go to bed. It must be time, when I can't tell a serious post from a sarcastic one.
P.S. I'm not a doctor. I just play one on the Internet. But I *do* look good in white.
And while I'm in the asking questions mood: why is being smart a crime? Yes, I am a fancy pants, East Coast elitist. I worked damned hard to educate myself both in and out of school and I refuse to play stupid for my southern cousins. If you don't like it, kiss my gay marriage supporting, Keep Abortion Legal, Starbucks Caramel Macchiato sipping, Maria Callas listening ass!
Just so everyone notices, this gay-obsessed closet-case troll is posting under a variety of "Greek" names in order to make one of his obscure points.
I figure y'all noticed that.
MYOB - as far as I'm concerned, if that is what lost us the election then so be it. If it hadn't been that, it would have been something else - I fail to understand why people can't get that. It didn't matter - Rove would have found a wedge. And frankly a wedge wasn't that important because this was not a fair election.
Explain this to me: Dallas County rejected every single Delay redistricted Democrat. We elected, overwhelmingly, an openly lesbian Democratic Latina as county sheriff against an insider from the department. Explain that and then explain how, here in blood red territory, if gays are the big fucking issue, how come Lupe Valdez is now our sheriff? Wake the hell up, man. You are on the wrong track here.
Why can't you weirdos ever make the slightest bit of sense? It's like you're so obsessed with throbbing, spurting cocks that you can't form a coherent argument..
Phila, great post. That might've bought us, oh, whaddya think, 2.5 minutes of peace in here?
If you don't like it, kiss my gay marriage supporting, Keep Abortion Legal, Starbucks Caramel Macchiato sipping, Maria Callas listening ass!
[David E]
Sing out Louise!
[/David E]
The Civil War! Partly based upon a marginalized people wanting the rights accorded to others in society.
If you think the civil war was fought over freedoms, you are much more ill-informed than I imagined. Please look at history -- the war between the states was about political power. The compromises that led to the US Constitution gave the south disportionate representation because, while only "free men" could vote, representation also counted those that were not considered free. Just look at the African American experience in America, you cannot show me that we fought a war to give these people their "rights." In fact, they evidently still don't have voting rights in parts of America even today. Your trite attempts to tie the homosexual agenda onto greater issues like inherent freedoms are becoming pretty lame. Maybe you should quite before you post something REALLY REALLY stupid!
Hecate, are you named after Edmund Wilson's Hecate County? Just asking.
I think it's safe to say the current group of phoney State's rights, Constitutional purists are dumber than rocks and worthy of their red state redneck status. If theses hicks had brains, they'd be dangerous.
Oh, wait! They have no brains and they are still dangerous. To democracy.
JAYSUS Fuckin CHRIST!
Gays lost the election? Get your heads out, the election was HACKED! Just like the last one, don't you get it?
Gay marriage enjoys the same constitutional protections as heterosexual marriage. I guess I could revert to a states' rights argument, then duck back into my closeted anal retentive gated community. Let me think about it, then I'll be back with some more homophobic bullshit.
I figure y'all noticed that.
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 11:11 pm | #
Amazingly enough, I wasn't paying attention. I blame the pot.
Yep, government is our enemy because it intrudes on personal freedoms and wastes money...and that's why we need to turn every branch of it over to Republicans, so they can run up a big deficit and make laws about who we can and can't fall in love with.
I think we need to get an anti-adultery law written. We must defend marriage at all costs! Public pillory for the first offense, death for the second.
Well, the Trolls are out tonight, and I think it's time for a singalong.
Given the subject matter, I think this little ditty is appropriate...
I just know george Thorogood would understand...
I have sex alone, yeah
With nobody else
I have sex alone, yeah
With nobody else
You know when I have sex alone
I prefer to be by myself
Every morning just before breakfast
Layin' in the bed with me
Rosie Palm and her five sisters
Are all the company I need
'Cause I have sex alone, yeah
With nobody else
You know when I have sex alone
I prefer to be by myself
When I'm Trolin' all you lefty Blogs
Well, I don't hardly make no sound
But I be whisperin' to the Bishop
While I slap that boy around
'Cause I have sex alone, yeah
With nobody else
You know when I have sex alone
I prefer to be by myself
Now don't you know my weasel
Is the shiniest of all
I know I'd be the Grand Wazoo
At the Weasel Waxers' Ball
'Cause I have sex alone, yeah
With nobody else
You know when I have sex alone
I prefer to be by myself
Now all my Freeper buddies
They be Weasel Waxers too
Aint got no time for ladies
With all the Trollin' we gotta do
So we have sex alone, yeah
With nobody else
You know when we have sex alone
We prefer to be by ourselves
Sorry about that election. The Islamic nutcases my kind is in cahoots with made us all do it.
Apologies for spamming your comments.
We are desperate for your support and know of few ways to ask for it. A few bloggers have been put behind bars in Iran for expressing their views. We ask you to please show your solidarity with fellow chained bloggers by signing our petition
here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mo...n/
petition.html
Come to my blog, la la la, come to my blog, la la la
But seriously folks, if I hear one more person talking about what issues we need to cede to the GOP to win elections, I'm officially going to explode. What we need to do is decide what we stand for, and then STAND FOR IT! If we're willing to sell out gays to win some votes, then we don't deserve to win.
What about my constitutional right to do it with doggies?
They have no brains and they are still dangerous.
Yeah. That's a problem, alright.
As I wrote to a friend in Chicago:
It's no surprise the GOP hates supporting public education. It erodes their base.
But seriously folks, if I hear one more person talking about what issues we need to cede to the GOP to win elections, I'm officially going to explode. What we need to do is decide what we stand for, and then STAND FOR IT!
EXACTLY!!!! I've been blogging this point myself.
People here are reading way too much into this election.
"...war between the states.."
Talk about outing yourself.
But seriously folks, if I hear one more person talking about what issues we need to cede to the GOP to win elections, I'm officially going to explode. What we need to do is decide what we stand for, and then STAND FOR IT!
EXACTLY!!!! I've been blogging this point myself.
People here are reading way too much into this election.
Iranians welcome massively Bush's re-election
But seriously folks, if I hear one more person talking about what issues we need to cede to the GOP to win elections, I'm officially going to explode. What we need to do is decide what we stand for, and then STAND FOR IT!
EXACTLY!!!! I've been blogging this point myself.
People here are reading way too much into this election.
I have no interest in debating values with people who rubberstamped Abu Ghraib. -- fourlegsgood
Nailed it.
Satan - yes, I get it. I got it from the minute everything went contrary to everyone's expectations.
For god's sake, we didn't lose this election. We didn't have an election. They haven't even counted all the votes from the Valley here in Texas - I wonder why? Maybe because it is the bluest part of the state. The fucking Dallas paper reported that today - and it's about as Repug a paper as there is.
Jeebus. WE ARE NOT WRONG. WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. they are wrong and they are criminals. Get into the right groove here to get this fight off the ground, please. And i don't mean the fight with each other.
Anyone who's as anti-gay as our troll claims to be really needs to commit suicide ASAP.
Why?
Imagine being 80 years old. Imagine being too frail and feeble to look after yourself. Now, imagine that a "butt-banger" or "carpet-muncher" has been put in charge of sponging you down, or changing your colostomy bag.
Even though your dick got hard reading that, troll, don't let it bother you. You know that despite occasionally getting aroused by thoughts of being at the mercy of gays, you're a red-blooded hetero he-man who'd choose death before that kind of dishonor.
But if you do choose to end it all, just be sure you do it right. Otherwise, you could end up in a vegetative state with some ass-bandit stealing a glance at your withered cock while he empties your bedpan.
I'm gay, and I think this is downright hysterical. My gay friends can't stop laughing at the connection. It doesn't make fun of gay people, it makes fun of the connection between the biggest homophope leader ever and the play on words. It's only really funny if you are gay friendly, IMHO.
Just sayin.
It's no surprise the GOP hates supporting public education. It erodes their base.
But most people support public education. That and the environment are two issues that the Kerry campaign largely left out of its message by playing on Rove's terms and by his groundrules. I never thought I'd say this, but Nader was right. We let them define the playing field, and we lost because we didn't play to our strengths.
Petulant,
My great-great-grandmother (a slave) walked with her mother to hear Lincoln give the Gettysburg address. She saw her grandchildren sprayed with Bull Connor's firehouses. She died before she was every allowed to cast a ballot legally in the United.I don't need a snot nosed punk like you to tell me why the United States fought the Civil War.
What Don copied above, goes for me double.
to all those above you state that the election was hacked - AMEN
I donated $10 to blackbox voting.org
I think vote theft will be what really brings 'em down -- hopefully before inauguration
Don - Yes baby yes! I refuse to cede one micromilimeter of anything to those fascist criminal bastards. I refuse absolutely.
What about my constitutional right to do it with doggies?
big bruce
Ummm...it's like this. Consensual sex between adults isn't the same thing as bestiality, or rape, or child abuse.
I know that this is probably the hardest concept you'll ever try to grasp in your life, but it's easier than you think.
Oh, that was Aethern - I really like your blog, Aethern. It's nice to have you around.
It is a scream to see the corn fed hicks get all riled up over State's Rights. OK to screw the country, but not an intern.
Maybe you should quite before you post something REALLY REALLY stupid!
Dr. Petulent
Maybe you should quite before you misspelll agaen.
What Satan said.
BTW, who put those anti-gay initiatives on the ballot?
And i don't mean the fight with each other.
Good point -- hope that no one calls you a "troll" for making it. It would also be nice to have a discussion as to what role the democrats can play in bringing more "rights" to homosexuals -- especially since the party is being marginalized to the point that it is reasonable to ask if it really has a future. No one said this "democracy" thing would be neat -- what is wrong with a discussion about choosing issues that we can actually "win" with? People's lives really are at stake here. IMHO, the real "trolls" are the regulars that will not allow anyone to bring up a point that is not in "lockstep" with their views -- even when the poster obviously supports most all of the same political agenda that the majority of posters here share. This is becoming one of those 300 + thread insults where every other post calls the one above it a troll. Go figure...
I'm still waiting for someone who thinks gays are some kind of problem to explain the vote in Dallas County to me. Frost went so far right he was showing campaign ads with he and Bush in them. He lost.
Lupe Valdez is an openly lesbian Democrat and a Latina. She won.
Explain, please.
>Democrats need to fire back that merging religion and government is a horrible idea that always results in destroying the government."<
This is a bunch of nonsense.
Give us an example.
If we're willing to sell out gays to win some votes, then we don't deserve to win.
Exactly. You can't win by selling out.
There are a lot of things we can do. More activism on the local level, for one. Make your blue state bluer, put your local moderate GOP on the spot by playing off the wingnuts. And if you can't do anything else in the red states, piss 'em off.
Nader's position is gloriously irrelevant and emotionally suspect, like most of his pronouncements.
I see. So, his position is closest to most people's here, yet that position is "irrelevant" and "emotionally suspect". And, back to the actual point, it's okay to be idealistic about gay marriage and allow Bush to win, but it's not okay to be idealistic if it allows Bush to win, if the form of that idealism is voting for Nader.
Thanks for clearing all that up. It makes perfect, consistent sense.
Maybe you should quite before you misspelll agaen.
300 + thread insults where every other post calls the one above it a troll. Go figure...
Echilles
You're really not very good at this. The fake Greek name, and the obsession with being labeled a "troll" by regulars, kind of gives the game away, ya know?
Voter fraud did occur!!
Check it out.
And I thought I was just losing my mind. There really IS something fishy and REPUBLICAN going on here folks.
Oh here we go again. the minute someone - me for instance - calls for unity, someone claims it is a call to march in lock step.
There's a difference, honey. Try to understand that, will you? There's a difference between someone beating you over the head until you submit, and some middle aged woman asking for some harmony.
That is just another stupid divisive tactic.
oh -- but all the anonymous posts are mine too. But your lame reasoning and labeling of others as "trolls" kind of gives your game away, ya know?
What's this about dogs?
Phila,
I'm all for honor killing.
Anyone who's as anti-gay as our troll claims to be really needs to commit suicide ASAP.
Sepuku is my recomendation.
not true about all the anon posts, but just havin' some fun with ya
How about this - merging government and religion destroys religion.
Maybe instead of defaulting to "anonymous", Hell-O-Scan could just show the cretin's IP address?
I'm illustrating the point that in such a narrow loss, it is possible that just about anything done differntly may have changed the outcome.
Now, where have I heard that before?
Sad.
Atrios takes off for the weekend and then returns but with no comments or threads about the fact that our electoral system is fucked.
I assume he is taking the position that it is wrong to yell, "Fraud" without enough proof.
But that is beside the point.
We need to fix the electoral system now. And he can support the movement to count the votes without alleging GOP dirty tricks or explicitly stating that Kerry won the election.
Reform will come with or without Atrios. But I hope he reconsiders his opposition. I have no doubt that part of the reason he closed the comments was because he believes that what we are doing is wrong.
Peace
2 ideas (ok, 2 fantasies) -
1) Every one who voted for Kerry contributes at least $1.00 to blackboxvoting...
2) The Democrats in Congress ABSTAIN from every single Republican proposed piece of legislation - give the "people" what they want! Then see if they really want it...
Linnea
GREAT IDEAS!
Also I think we should really mull over secssion (sp) It's an idea ppl can really sink their teeth into...of course the first concern is how to keep the violent bloodthirst Amerikkan Taliban at heel. But we'd have the smart people and freedom - those are very much in demand.
I see. So, his position is closest to most people's here, yet that position is "irrelevant" and "emotionally suspect".
Yep. Kind of like a mayor we have out here in California, named Jerry Brown. Talked a great progressive game, but was actually a fraud...a dangerous one, too.
Nader's "positions" are like any other politician's. They're what he claims he wants, and that may or may not bear any resemblence to what he could or would do, given power. I've been watching the guy for years, I know people who've worked with him, and my personal opinion is that he's a fraud. An asshole, too, but I could live with that. It's the dishonesty that troubles me.
It's people like Petulent that really piss me off. You spout off these quick "talking points" you picked up from the back of an O'Reilly book and suddenly you know all there is to know about history. History isn't just in books. You live it everyday. From listening to the stories of my relatives who couldn't vote because of literacy tests and poll taxes I know how privileged I am to have the right to vote today. Is the voting system perfect: no. Were some of the justifications used for the Civil War pure in intention: absolutely not! I can change what happened in Ohio. Maybe not today, but I won't give up until I do. I'm tired and I'm going to bed.
There's a difference, honey. Try to understand that, will you? There's a difference between someone beating you over the head until you submit, and some middle aged woman asking for some harmony.
Not sure I see the difference, no one is actually beating anyone over the head until they submit -- unless you can call reading the same nonsense from the same commentators on a daily basis as "beating over the head." I guess it is easy to act like the great healer now -- I remember the threads from BEFORE the election and that wasn't your song then
It's the dishonesty that troubles me.
Dishonesty troubles you, yet you choose to vote for one of the candidates from the two major parties?
LOL
You're not very good at this, you lousy troll creep.
We win, always (except when we lose, big.)
what is wrong with a discussion about choosing issues that we can actually "win" with? People's lives really are at stake here.
Riiight. And of course, gays aren't really PEOPLE with LIVES. So, let's see: According to CW, what issues can we win with, since everyone thinks the theocons have taken over? Reproductive rights? ...Nope. Iraq? ...Nope. Tax policy? ...Nope.
IMHO, the real "trolls" are the regulars that will not allow anyone to bring up a point that is not in "lockstep" with their views -- even when the poster obviously supports most all of the same political agenda that the majority of posters here share.
No one's stopping you from bringing up a point, but no one's going to refrain from calling it bullshit, either. You seem to want to believe that Mr. Sluggo's really out to get you. It's just a symptom of that pesky overgrown ego.
Yes, the "Establishment Clause" of the First Amendment was to protect religion -- not government. Although it works both ways. Remember what Henry VIII did with religion? That offended some.
How come no mention of a single US casualty in the assault on Fallujah?
Just making sure every body got this...
Voter fraud did occur!!
Check it out.
And I thought I was just losing my mind. There really IS something fishy and REPUBLICAN going on here folks.
And yes, I know it's from Michael Moore's site, but he didn't write it so shut up.
And, back to the actual point, it's okay to be idealistic about gay marriage and allow Bush to win, but it's not okay to be idealistic if it allows Bush to win, if the form of that idealism is voting for Nader.
No contradiction at all, Chester.
Equal rights for homosexuals is a genuine moral position.
Voting for Nader is wanking.
I have no problems with anyione who wants to genuinely grow a third party. "Nader" is not a party. Rather, it is a git.
Wow...how many fake names is he gonna come up with tonight? He's going for a new world's record, looks like.
I love that we're supposed to picture all these aggrieved people reading Eschaton day after day, and getting progressively angrier at Tena, of all people..until finally they're compelled by her authoritarian hijinks to break silence and speak Truth to Power...and always in the same words and in the same way, natch.
Atrios, I'm sorry for doing this.
Petulent-Go Fuck Yourself! Civil War-Civil Rights-Women's Rights-Gay Rights. It all comes from the same source: a need to be equal!
Remember what Henry VIII did with religion? That offended some.
Don | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 11:41 pm | #
Anne Bolyn (sp) for one, from what I hear. And thought I'm loathe to wade into this particular morass, does it sound like to anyone else that the "I am Anonymous" guy sounds pissed that someone was mean to him?
Already sent BlackBoxVoting $200 two days ago.
I'll send more if needed and if I have it.
This election was rigged. I don't care if the results are marginally the same. I don't consider it a whine, either. We need to know what the fuck is going on with our elections. This is supposed to be the model country for free elections. This one stinks worse than the last one.
It was fucking fraudulent.
Tena
I was thinking about the potential for blowback in a serious way for the Religious. If I were someone of sincere faith, I would begin distancing myself from the radical side of the group fast.
Can some Nader voter please give me just one example of a time when John Kerry either lied or attempted to mislead with any statement given, just so I can get the gist of this "the two major parties are both equally moshonest" charge?
Can some Nader voter please give me just one example of a time when John Kerry either lied or attempted to mislead with any statement given, just so I can get the gist of this "the two major parties are both equally mishonest" charge?
OT
I want to visit Toronto, just to look around,,,,
What neighborhoods are similar to say, Manhattan?
Just watched the Olberman report that someone posted a link to (thanks).I have my tin foil hat firmly attached.Permantly I might add.
THis shit is scary.
I hope you trolls like what you see,we might be in for this government for a very very very long time.
Funny how these election problems only showed up as serious problems when junior and Rove showed up in the house.
I am about to burst a blood vessel.How can we go on,knowing that the election was a fraud?
HOW?
I like that the congress critter said something about not asking for a new election,just getting the point across that there may actually be a need to revote.
Wouldnt that be a history maker?
Of course rove and co will never allow that.
Rove is king maker and we are all pawns,yes,even you trolls are pawns.
I weep,therefore I am.
.
Anyone here read the disgusting Nick Kristof column the other day calling for Dems to dump their values (civil rights, seperation of church and state, Geneva Convention, etc.) in order to win election from depraved fundies?
It was so revolting. What does it take to knock a little logic into tiny minds?
Dishonesty troubles you, yet you choose to vote for one of the candidates from the two major parties?
Yep. I find Nader's dishonesty WAY more troubling. Just the same way I'd be more troubled at getting a counterfeit hundred than a counterfeit five.
We need a real person in his shoes, not a pietistic fraud. As it stands, he's another lying scumbag, only without any chance of winning. Of course, if you sincerely wanted me to vote my conscience, you could suggest Cobb or Kucinich instead. But you won't.
What Thersites said.
The deleterious affect that mixing government and religion has on religion needs to be brought up and talked about in public.
Forget that it's bad for government - it is terrible for religion because it is a knife that cuts both ways. You mix it up like that and pretty soon religion becomes subject to the whims of government to the same extent that government becomes subject to the whims of religion.
satan wrote:
Gays lost the election? Get your heads out, the election was HACKED!"
Here we have an administration that certainly stole the 2000 general, and hacked the 2002 mid terms.
In the mean time committed a BUNCH of high crimes and misdemeanors and were at least as impeachable as Clinton, and lookin pretty indictable to boot! To say that they could not afford to loose their spots or let either house "get away" is putting it mildly.
If there were no "blips" or "anomalies" in this election just the facts put forth above would be enough to make one wonder, but that is not the case. The defense bushco will use is the tinfoil hat meme.
How many stories have you watched or read where the plot is someone commits a crime then must commit many worse crimes to cover up the trail? Since we are on an ancient Greek thing this has been a standard plot since Greek tragedies.
I want to visit Toronto, just to look around,,,,
What neighborhoods are similar to say, Manhattan?
artnoize
Depends what you mean by "similar." Queen Street West is pretty lively, so is Bloor Between Spadina and Yonge. Chinatown/Kensington Market are also great.
Sad.
Atrios takes off for the weekend and then returns but with no comments or threads about the fact that our electoral system is fucked.
It's Atrios' site, and he can choose to blog whatever he wishes. I suspect he has his own reasons for not blogging this subject, but he isn't preventing us from commenting on it.
Sure, there's an elephant in the room. And as Dems, we'll just keep on poking that elephant until it screams.
Between Bathurst and Yonge, I meant to say.
No contradiction at all, Chester. Equal rights for homosexuals is a genuine moral position. Voting for Nader is wanking.
How stupid.
Tena,
I'm glad you're doing better and getting back into the swing of things.
I'm still waiting for someone who thinks gays are some kind of problem to explain the vote in Dallas County to me. Frost went so far right he was showing campaign ads with he and Bush in them. He lost.
Lupe Valdez is an openly lesbian Democrat and a Latina. She won.
Explain, please.
Exactly! Bingo! We've become so afraid of being painted by the GOP as this or that, so many of our candidates pander to their perceptions of the right to their own peril. I don't want to be too critical of Senator Kerry, because I think he ran a hell of a campaign under really tough circumstances, but there is one thing that is instructive here. He let the Clintonistas convince him to make such a huge effort to appear as an 'everyman', that it just looked ridiculous. See, Kerry is an honest man, and the pandering just didn't fit well. He was at his best when he was just himself (the debates!) and didn't try to be something he wasn't. He is an urban, sophisticated man who does yuppie type sports. He plays classical guitar and drinks wine and eats cheese. SO FREAKING WHAT!!!! By trying to deny these things instead of responding with 'yeah, that's what I do. I enjoy them. what's your point?', he played right into their hands. People saw that he wasn't being genuine, and it gave credence to the GOP driven meme that he wasn't trustworthy. Again, I don't mean to be too harsh on the Senator. By and large, he did an excellent job under the circumstances, but I feel this was a critical mistake that really killed us.
Nader's just an ass for thinking that putting his poltical aspiration ahead of the welfare of the country is somehow a moral cause for a more fair electoral system.
Smallfish,
Buck up, mate. The fundies pull this shit over and over again and it has a very short shelf life. It's all about fear and absolutes and *faith* replaces reason. It all fails, eventually. Reality has a very good way of asserting itself. Hasn't failed yet.
Remember what Henry VIII did with religion?
Sure!
Pay no heed to the words of the foreigner
Give no heed to the words of his faith
Because all the faith of the foreigner
Comes from the bollocks of Henry the Eighth.
The old religious hatreds are the best ones.
Don't take your guilt out on me Monica. I'm not the one who voted against your right to marry. If you think the election's outcome would have been the same had gay marriage not been an issue then I'll read your theories with great interest.
Guilt? All due respect and all that, right?
But the truth is, while I was voting against the anti-gay marriage amendment here in Kentucky, It's quite obvious that a recognizable percentage of Kerry voters in Ohio, Michigan, and Oregon voted in support of the ban. Direct your guilt at them, not me.
Guilt? All due respect and all that, right?
I applaud your efforts,
Bullshit.
but I wanted the suggestion made that we shouldn't set fire to the house until after we're all safely outside with fire extinquishers in hand to put it out. That this issue came out when there was little to nothing Democrats could do to support you or provide damage control suggests you and we both lack the long term vision to realize that maybe some issues should be put off until there are people in power to make it work
The issue didn't just "come out," but let's be simplistic, shall we?
If the logic flies over your head then too bad.
Fuck you.
Oh. As for the front of the bus comment. It doesn't apply to someone with my heritage.
Good to know. Maybe your family and my family shared seats in the back. Surely, they might not have recognized each other.
Oh, and fuck you, MYOB.
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 11:48 pm | #
You make me laugh with your twisted "thinking". Must suck to be all twisted up emotionally and unable to form a calm, rational thought.
Aethern,
you're a breath of fresh air!
Nice blog too.
Depends what you mean by "similar." Queen Street West is pretty lively, so is Bloor Between Spadina and Yonge. Chinatown/Kensington Market are also great.
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 11:50 pm | #
Thanks, I appreciate your advice.
Similar to East Village-Tribeca-Soho
{"Downtown" -Artists & musicians stuff]
OT
But between this sort of conversation, the war, the mandate, the back patting and of courser laci Peterson...
Has anyone actually heard a single word about domestic security? Has there been any declarations of firm actions to improve things? I mean OBL is lurking out there, thumbs his nose at us and then it is all about Fallujah.
>it is terrible for religion because it is a knife that cuts both ways.<
A knife?
Does anybody know where the soccer stadium is?
EkCenTrik - exactly - there may be some movement in that direction before all is said and done, too. It happened in Germany. they waited a little too long, to say the least. But it happened.
G'night - I'm outta here, so if my name is used, you will know it isn't me. I'm going to bed.
How can anyone who claims to be a Christian be against equal treatment for all? This directly goes against all the tenets of the New Testament. Am I missing something?
I've read a few comments here from progressives who are blaming the loss of the election on gay rights activists pushing for marriage RIGHT NOW, and why couldn't we wait until after the election?
It should be pointed out that a case does not reach a Supreme Court, including a state Supreme Court, without working it's way up the system for years. It was over a decade of work to undo sodomy laws via the SCOTUS. Our fight for equality has been going on with Stonewall. It has taken us that long to get here.
Should the vast majority of conservatives have cost progressives the election because of gay marriage, I can understand the frustration the progressive feels for having lost. But that is not the fault of the oppressed.
Everything the dems and we do needs to be put on hold to shake the rafters of the world.
The election is a fraud
It cannot be said enough times.
I have told people over and over today,and everytime I get the same reaction.Their eyes open wide and they are in disbelief.Even my repub freinds react the same way.
THis is going to go somewhere now,lets shelve the other shit.
Make sure you all go out tomorrow and parrot the line that this election was stolen by the Republicans. It's more than proven by now that it was.
Good night all.
You've got the idea smallfish.
ELECTION WAS A FRAUD!
Get it out there folks.
Ok. For real this time. Bye.
Lupe Valdez is an openly lesbian Democrat and a Latina. She won.
Explain, please.
Tena
Depends on the system used in that county. If it was Diebold, or one as easily hacked, it could have been some Geek's (or Republican operative's) idea of a joke.
Or she could have won legit, and, like I said yesterday, they only stole what they needed.
I'm coming more and more to the view that Bush actually won the Popular Vote, and stole the Electoral, or is trying to, even as we speak. One thing that bothers me about Oh and Fl is the apparent incompetence of it all. I mean, how could they have expected to get away with tampering that easily detected? My inquiring mind really wants to know. Are we smelling a decoy rat?
The model on the cover of 'Mandate' magazine is Mark Dalton. He is gay for pay. He was recently arrested for possesion (steroids) and possibly domestic violence. It was a recent entry at gaypornblog.com.
OT:
Did anyone see Olbermann's show tonight? Did he do anything on election fraud?
It's on again in five minutes and I want to know if I should watch it or not.
Thanks.
How stupid.
Anonymous
You wish!
Also, what monica_nyc said. If MYOB wants to address the central issue of how gay marriage could've NOT been an issue in this election, I'm all ears. I guess his idea is that when the GOP put fliers up saying that we'd make gay marriage legal, or sent people to ask Kerry about it at Town Hall meetings, he should've said, "I am 100 percent against gay marriage and civil unions, and will never allow it, ever."
What bullshit. If he'd done that, he would've gotten fewer votes than he did, and rightly so.
MYOB's patronizing tone towards Monica is pretty amazing, given how completely wrong he is.
Joshua Davis
I seditiously spread the meme in small words without drama.
Actually I have four folks I talk to bringing the word from sites such as this.
They are a bit timid to enter into and read the comments section here.
jasin
Only watch it if you want to be freaked out.
We're patiently waiting for more info to surface about the vote count. No matter the outcome, we have to have a system we can trust again.
And even if it DID turn out that Kerry turned up enough electoral votes to take the election and still lost the popular vote -- poetic justice, bitches!
I want coverage of this anti-gay revolution 24/7. It is not helping the Republicans. Rove distanced himself from this explanation on MTP. He said the real election issue was 'terrorism/security' if you aggregate the separate poll questions on iraq and terrorism.
Priorities -
Election reform; MEDIA REFORM...
Linnea | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 10:39 pm | #
You can't reform the media without putting control for what you see and hear into the hands of the government. Would you want Bush controlling what you see and hear?
NO!
The answer is what we did to Sinclar Broadcasting. Boycott them, withdraw your money and screw them over that way.
If you don't trust the mass media stop watching. Let their numbers plummet. If they actively go against our interests start a boycott, that is a proper, democratic solution that requires no new law, depends on no law, and does not give the government any new power it doesn't need. Grass roots power, always remember that we have it!
OKjackson said "When pushed on homosexual marriage, Democrats need to fire back that merging religion and government is a horrible idea that always results in destroying the government."
no, the point to make isn't that religion destroys government, it's that government destroys religion. That's a much easier sell, in that they already believe the government fucks up everything it touches anyway.
bunny | Email | Homepage | 11.08.04 - 11:09 pm | #
Alright, that's another angle. Heck, make them afraid of a government telling them what kinds of Christianity is okay. Scare them with stories of other kinds of Christians teaching other kinds of Christianity to their kid. Scare them with a turning majority that won't let them win. It may be too early for this one.
BUT...
...they already know that they are still afraid of us. They know they didn't win, and even those that are confident that they did know that half of the voting populace went Kerry's way. If the dollar falls and sentiment against Bush and the Republican Senate and Congress turns deep south, that would be the time to start putting those fears into their ears.
Remember, simple ideas not only spread faster among advocates, but they also have an easier time breaking into the minds of the simple minded people who still think Saddam had Al Queda ties and WMDs. So on all ends, keep it simple and quick.
It's on again in five minutes and I want to know if I should watch it or not.
Jasin: YES. WATCH IT.
You talking about irregularities in the votes might find this interesting:
Data on turnout rates in Florida
If the Repubs want to be the anti-gay party, and paint the Dems as the pro-gay party, I say good.
Pro-gay sentiment is, despite the election results, on the rise, especially with younger folk. This contrast works to our advantage, not theirs (in the long run).
Voter fraud did occur!!
Doy! Not even the Thugs thought Shrub had a chance. Let's review:
Stolen '00 election, fucked up economy, complete inattention to terrorism till 9/11. Then invasion of Iraq on phoney pretence. Torture of prisoners---check. Geneva Convention rules? Nyet!! Humiliation of the good name of America around the globe----check.
Wow! I'd say W is batting a thousand!
Thanks, I appreciate your advice.
Similar to East Village-Tribeca-Soho
{"Downtown" -Artists & musicians stuff]
artnoize
OK. For starters, Queen Street West from Roncesvalles to Spadina, Kensington Market, and parts of Dundas West. The whole goddamn city's pretty great, though.
I'm outta here. Play nice!
Voting for Nader is wanking.
How stupid.
Yeah, wanking is pretty stupid. Fun. sure. Helps with stress. But not very productive.
Nothing wrong with it, really, though, except you should know when it's inappropriate behavior in public...
Gays are just asses for thinking that putting their aspirations ahead of the welfare of the country is somehow a moral cause.
IMHO, the real "trolls" are the regulars...
Oh, please...
Gay jokes? Come on. Aren't we a little too old for that?
If you are going to get up in arms about gay marriage, don't scream at Republicans. At least they are honest about their opinion on the subject. Bill Clinton advised John Kerry to come out and support the state initiatives against gay marriage. John Kerry supported a ban on gay marriage in his own state. They cloud it all in the separate but equal Orwellian speak "civil unions". If you support gay marriage, you are letting the Democrats get away with the biggest scam. Wink wink, nudge nudge is a pathetic show of political courage.
Instead of making jokes about Bush at gay's expense, try putting up a slate of candidates that support gay marriage 100%. If America truly wants gay marriage, they will be able to make an informed decision about it. And end this separate but equal garbage. All or nothing.
You wish!
Neener!
Echidne of the snakes
That list is amazing.THat one does not count the one county that is in lock down?Am I right?
I wonder if anyone has the time to go thru that list and count the number of votes cast and compare it to voters registered and get the sum of the push for junior.
Surely it will come close to the number he won Ohio by.
Watching the Olberman repeat now.
Obvious fraud. Another stolen election and no major media attention. With the horror of the electorate in GOP hands, we are now a third world nation.
God Bless Amurika!
Re: Election fraud -- new thread up. Go read for yourselves why it was such a quiet weekend here.
To review...
Voting for Nader, which was an expression of idealism that rejected the notion of "not now, be realistic", and had a small effect, among many other factors which led to Bush's victory in 2000 -- this was the worst thing in the world, worthy of scorn until the end of time.
Standing up for gay marriage (even though it was Rove's wedge bait) was an expression of idealism that rejected the notion of "not now, be realistic", and had a small effect, among many other factors which led to Bush's victory in 2004 -- this is something people should shut up about and fuck off if they do.
Glad we got that all cleared up.
Ok, here's the scoop.
The gay marriage issue was the excuse to account for the "largest turnout ever" to "elect" bush.
Like Randy Rhodes says, people don't stand for 7 hours in the cold and rain to keep the status quo.
We were conned
We were conned
Interesting graph, but aren't you using numbers from the earliest exit polls, instead of the final ones?
Voting for Nader, which was an expression of idealism that rejected the notion of "not now, be realistic", and had a small effect, among many other factors which led to Bush's victory in 2000 -- this was the worst thing in the world, worthy of scorn until the end of time.
Nope. But keep guessing. It keeps the rest of us amused.
He is an urban, sophisticated man who does yuppie type sports. He plays classical guitar and drinks wine and eats cheese. SO FREAKING WHAT!!!! By trying to deny these things instead of responding with 'yeah, that's what I do. I enjoy them. what's your point?', he played right into their hands. People saw that he wasn't being genuine, and it gave credence to the GOP driven meme that he wasn't trustworthy.
Bingo, I agree with that completely. I cringed when he said "Lambert Field" when he meant the Packers Lambeau. Maybe it was an honest mistake, but still.
I knew that Howard Dean was toast as soon as he trotted out the wife for TV appearances. He'd resisted before that, but the consultants and spin doctors got to him. He suddenly was just playing the game and it made his whole "outsider" thing seem like just more hooey.
It should be pointed out that a case does not reach a Supreme Court, including a state Supreme Court, without working it's way up the system for years. It was over a decade of work to undo sodomy laws via the SCOTUS.
More like 3 decades, but point taken. If some want to blame the gay marriage thing, blame the hetero, Gavin Newsom. While I was amazed to see all that happen in SF, I knew it was a horrible tactical mistake.
Nope. But keep guessing. It keeps the rest of us amused.
Oh, I'm sorry. I seem to have understated your irrational hatred. Please put it in your own words.
Anonymous is a mere troll, of course, and believes in Nader like he believes in intellectual honesty. But it's fascinating to see the classic faux-Nader argument in such a pure form.
F'rinstance, the total identification of Nader as THE alternative, period. It boils down to the man himself...not to AN alternative - not to Cobb or Kucinich or a write-in vote for Chomsky or whomever - but to Nader. The allegiance is not to one's conscience in itself, but always to Nader as the highest possible expression of conscience.
Then, you get the whining about the Plight of Victimhood, far more suitable to a Wiccan during the Inquisition, in which the faux-Naderite's agency has supposedly been curtailed by forces of evil (and we know who we are)...as though mere words or facts could puncture the Naderite's glutinous bubble of self-approbation.
Then, of course, you get the aggrieved sneers at folks on Eschaton, as though we were somehow the architects of St. Ralph's fortunes. Never a mention of his former running-mate LaDuke asking him not to run, nor of his insulting the Congressional Black Caucus by implying that people like Maxine Waters are Uncle Toms, nor of the Greens' repudiation of him, nor of his repudiation by people like Chomsky and Michael Moore and practically every other liberal with any national stature whatsoever, nor of Nader glomming on to Repub dough and retaining Bush's own lawyer with it. Nope, it's all OUR fault.
And then, as Thersites noted, we get the conflation of taking a specific moral stand on a specific issue like gay rights, with supporting Nader's candidacy, as though human liberation = Ralph, and vice versa, world without end, amen. In reality, one is a ideal, and the other is a man. And
Yup, it's your Nader-troll hit parade, comin' at ya live on Eschaton.
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 11.09.04 - 1:06 am | #
You know what impresses me about that post? It's that in all those words, you never actually dealt with the issue.
Bravo!
between the diebold-ess cabal and the far right shit for brains creationists
attacking logic in the name of some invisible goof off in the sky we're
headed for a third world fate for sure...while darth cheney and his hand puppet aWoljr lead the endless war against our treasury...the phoney war is only a cash cow for the usual scumbags...after the middleclass is squashed and the walled enclaves with
guarded gates and closed water systems
are in place for the lucky rich folks...oops.. i forgot those are already in place...anyway if the election had been honest and all votes counted and the rethugs had won fairly it would still be a pile of shit because the rethugs have marginalized the DEMS by denying more than half the electorate representation...it's time for canned goods and shotgun shells...
Oh, I'm sorry. I seem to have understated your irrational hatred. Please put it in your own words.
Anonymous
Well, I just did...but in regards to your new silly remark, there's no irrational hatred involved. Mostly, there's amusement at the spectacle of some anonymous clown trying yet again to portray his alleged vote for Nader as some kinda Cosmos-shaking ontological crisis, the moral importance of which we mere mortals can't fathom.
Last time I checked, anyone who wanted to vote for Nader was totally free to do so. But that's not enough for ya...we're supposed to kneel before you as an Apostle of Light, too, 'cause you've been bathed and cleansed in Saint Ralph's holy blood.
You know what impresses me about that post? It's that in all those words, you never actually dealt with the issue.
It helps if you read 'em. Try starting at the left side, and moving slowly towards the right.
I'll leave ya to it. I'm gonna go throw darts at my Nader dartboard while weeping. Then, I think I'll go out and fuck some men.
"The issue." Heh. That's rich.
Philalethes | Email | Homepage | 11.09.04 - 1:18 am | #
Nope. You don't get it.
"The issue." Heh. That's rich.
Oh, really? Please state my position, then.
and as for ralph nader...fuck him too...his ranting in the 60's did more damage to American industry than anyone else...the problems with the Chevy Corvair started ralph's little run at fame and he kept it up...his work has been good and bad but his methods have been lame for years including 2000 when so many voted for him out of conscience, morons...
Eh, what the hell...my tea's still steeping. and the longer I detain you in this dead thread, the less trouble you'll be causing elsewhere (you never figure that one out, do you?).
Thou: You know what impresses me about that post? It's that in all those words, you never actually dealt with the issue.
I: And then, as Thersites noted, we get the conflation of taking a specific moral stand on a specific issue like gay rights, with supporting Nader's candidacy, as though human liberation = Ralph, and vice versa, world without end, amen. In reality, one is a ideal, and the other is a man.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. But then, I haven't been cleansed in the divine blood of St. Ralph, and I haven't had my inner blindness lifted by His holy touch.
and the longer I detain you in this dead thread, the less trouble you'll be causing elsewhere
LOL Standard claptrap.
In reality, one is a ideal, and the other is a man.
Can't summarize my position, as I thought.
People didn't vote for Nader. They voted for the positions he took. Idiot.
Continue whacking off.
Oh, really? Please state my position, then.
Anonymous
Duhhhh...stupid Eschaton people say,
"Nader in 2000 baaaaaaad, 'cause it hurted Gore. Gay marriage in 2004 gooooooood, even though it hurted Kerry."
So: 1) Nader's candidacy is not morally equivalent to gay marriage or any other human rights struggle; 2) Supporting gay marriage was not a "choice" that the Democratic party made, but an inescapable dynamic of the election; 3) Since there's strong evidence of voter fraud (or at least machine malfunction), the question of how much gay marriage even hurt Kerry is unknown; 4) Since Nader had no chance of being elected and Kerry did, the logical path towards gay rights called for helping Kerry win; 5) You're a liar, a fool, and a buffoon.
Sweet dreams! I'm turning in.
and as for ralph nader...fuck him too...his ranting in the 60's did more damage to American industry than anyone else...the problems with the Chevy Corvair started ralph's little run at fame and he kept it up...his work has been good and bad but his methods have been lame for years including 2000 when so many voted for him out of conscience, morons...
Duhhhh...stupid Eschaton people say,
"Nader in 2000 baaaaaaad, 'cause it hurted Gore. Gay marriage in 2004 gooooooood, even though it hurted Kerry."
Wrong again. When exactly are you going to grow out of your Strawman Phase, or are you stuck there permanently for lack of intellectual and ethical capacity?
You're a liar, a fool, and a buffoon.
You smell funny! Neener!
People didn't vote for Nader. They voted for the positions he took.
Nope, they voted for a mere image, just like Bush's people. They saw a burned-down candle, and mistook it for God's blazing glory.
So why didn't YOU vote for Cobb? Way better on gay rights, and on lots of other issues. Younger, smarter, more honest, saner. Why didn't you support him to the hilt? Cobb's WAY better than Nader, don't you think? Really now, in all seriousness...don't you?
I think you should've voted for Cobb, all things considered. Calling Maxine Waters a sell-out? That's going too far, I think. Not presidential. Not progressive. Not even true!
Oh me, oh my. You Nader trolls....you certainly do crack me up. 'Specially when you start getting really, REALLY angry.
Wrong again.
OK, lover boy. My mistake. Tell me...(drum roll)...the issue.
Let's have it.
OK, if you can't do that, at least tell me what "neener" means. Is it some kinda Nader thing, that you have to be a Nader guy to understand?
Eh, who cares. Off to bed...third time's a charm. Nader uber alles, y'all! And don't take any wooden rhetoric.
'Specially when you start getting really, REALLY angry.
I'm angry? How many times are you going to be wrong tonight?
And I thought you were going to bed. What happened?
Nope, they voted for a mere image, just like Bush's people.
Wrong again.
So why didn't YOU vote for Cobb?
Because I voted for Kerry, doing my part to get rid of Bush.
If the Repubs want to be the anti-gay party, and paint the Dems as the pro-gay party, I say good.
Pro-gay sentiment is, despite the election results, on the rise, especially with younger folk. This contrast works to our advantage, not theirs (in the long run).
jasin | Email | Homepage | 11.09.04 - 12:04 am | #
This brings up a good point, the GOP is aiming for the old fundies who are literally a dying breed. They rely on the vote of people still holding onto antiquated bigoted ideas that belong in a history book, not a discussion of modern day politics.
Let them have the paranoid, old, white women who are afraid that a man marrying another will soil the taste of her marinade. New voters come into being every day, they're young, they're asking themselves questions and are open minded. The party of the future is the party that snatches as many young voters as it can get.
But how to get them? Give them a clear, consistant message that they feel strengthens the point of our secular, free society.
New voters come into being every day, they're young, they're asking themselves questions and are open minded.
LOL
New voters come into being every day, they're young, they're asking themselves questions and are open minded.
LOL
Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 11.09.04 - 2:23 am | #
And if you need any further proof that they can be harnessed, watch for Republican hacks pulling a "Br'er Rabbit" whenever you find a viable solution.
Nader in 2000 baaaaaaad, 'cause it hurted Gore. Gay marriage in 2004 gooooooood, even though it hurted Kerry."
The crap that passes for an "intellectual thought" here blows my mind. Please, talk to African American men that were being killed, beaten, and bitten by dogs while they fought for the right to vote, eat at a diner, and repeal Jim Crow laws. While each of us is an individual, many will take offense at the comparison beteeen gay union "rights" and basic civil rights for people of color. The democrats are DOOMED as long as a faction within that party continues to hijack the real issues and scream "look at me, I'm gay! It's not fair!"
I'm offended that you liberal losers would imply there's anything gay about Bush. And someone should really tell those people at Google to clean up their act.
Atrios, dude, warn us with an NSFW tage before putting up those links with half nekkid young mens with them ripplin' muscles and come hither looks before we click on them. Some of us are at work.
51-48....MANDATE, MY ASS!
Bart Cop Entertainment ran a piece this morning about the average IQs of all the states. The states with the highest IQ averages voted for Big John.
We know who the 59,054,087 KNUCKLE-DRAGGERS voted for.
I thought that was very interesting.
The other day, my daughter said "You notice that almost ALL of the CULTURAL attractions are in the BLUE states?"
I'd never thought of that till she mentioned it.
But, hey, why would THOSE imbeciles NEED cultural attractions? MOST of them can't even READ above the fourth grade level.
And what more do you need when you've got NASCAR, high school football. the WWE and Jesus, right?
There's a damn good reason why Bush & his band of thieves had better leave those of us in the SMARTER STATES alone: without us, the slack jawed yokels in CRACKER NATION would starve to death.
Who do you think is footing the bill for THEIR welfare checks?
(The pendulum ALWAYS swings BACK, folks!)
what the fuck atrios, give a warning for the people at work, please..
wow. a quick "NSFW" warning would have been nice.
and what's up with this "pendulum always swings back" stuff? it's CW, and if this election proved anything, it's that last century's CW don't mean squat. WE DON'T KNOW if the pendulum is going to swing back. we can't rely on that hope.
They have a studio audience for Pete's sake. What was he thinking?
They have a studio audience for Pete's sake. What was he thinking?
what the fuck atrios, give a warning for the people at work, please..
Upon further analysis. I worked on the Kerry campaign in WI. We did a massive GOTV in WI. The result was WI went Kerry and the turnout was the 2nd highest in the country--72%. Now the Republicans did big turnout efforts in their strong states like Texas in order to drive up the popular vote and hence have the "mandate". Meantime in Democrats strongholds like NY and CA almost nothing was done by the Dems. If there had been the GOTV efforts in these states the Repub popular vote margin would have been wiped out and Bush would NOT have won the popular vote! People need to look at this and its ramifications. WE are not outnumbered and we can win but need to work harder, EVERYWHERE.
shit, next time post a "Not necesarily work safe" advisory
between that and the link someone sent me to pictures of one of my ex-G/F's last week, i'm sure my network security people are keeping extra trak of me lately
Here's one Dem that ain't laying down and giving up on ANYTHING. Screw those braindead knuckle-draggers...all 59,054,087 of them!
I want to see these redneck assholes who voted for Monkey Boy in about a year...after their states start bleeding jobs. After their kids and grandkids start coming home in flag-draped boxes on a regular basis.
I want to see if they "Praise the lord!" THEN.
These knuckleheads voted against their own best interests and they're too dumb to realize it.
Religious fanatics make me sick. I've hated them all my life. 99% of them are the biggest fucking hypocrites around.
Case in point:
I work for a law firm, which is currently representing this contractor who's accused of everything from mail fraud to using fraudulent tax returns to get construction loans.
He's one of these Alan Keyes/Pat Buchanan Catholics. Everything is his fucking religion - that's the be-all and end-all of his life. (I was raised Catholic. Thank God I've recovered from THAT experience.)
He walks around saying "God is great, God is good." (Do you know how badly I want to turn around and say to him: "Isn't THAT what Osama and the boys of Al Qaeda walk around saying?")
He's one of these rabid anti-choice nuts and, of course, he was all for Monkey Boy!
He's SO religious but he's a crook!
Hey, believe what you want, but when you start trying to cram that bullshit down MY throat, I have a problem with you AND your beliefs!
the link someone sent me to pictures of one of my ex-G/F's last week
Please share that link with us, so we can decide for ourselves.
Thank you.
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