I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
well played
Killjoy.
And now for something completely different:
Turkee:
http://www.jonessoda.com/files/t...s/
turkey04.html
Amen.
I agree. Tinfoil is best worn by right-wingers.
Remember what happened with the National Guard stuff. CBS ran with the story before they had it fully checked out and it made the whole thing look bogus.
What I want to know, is will the Dems start pushing for reciept-only voting machines after some time has passed?
That way, it doesn't just look a like bitter reaction.
How can you lose putting cons into the place of defending paperless machines?
Pardon the Tenet, but it seems like a slam dunk.
CBS ran with the story before they had it fully checked out and it made the whole thing look bogus.
You left out the punchline:
Even though it wasn't.
Agreed.
Now, can you tell us what the "something big is about to happen" post was all about, kind sir? Or did I miss it?
I'd like to think that many of us are just patiently waiting for more information to roll out before we go all smack-down about it. Sounds like many of us are not.
No matter how it turns out, it's clear that we need a system we can absolutely trust. If people even suspect that all our hard work can be wiped out by a few well-placed keystrokes, grassroots campaigning will die.
This is a good bipartisan issue to start hammering Republicans on. It is also a good issue for Democratic candidates planning campaigns for Sec. of State in "red" states. After all, how would the Republicans like, say, Michael Moore for Ohio SofS?
We're grieving. It's denial. Unless it turns out to be true.
THank you Atrios for putting it in perspective and for actually saying something to sooth the frayed nerves.
It has been increasingly on my mind untill today.Now I am obsessing over it(as usual).
I dont know what I can do,other than tell everyone I know that there are "irregularities" involved in our system of choosing leaders.
The right has come to know the left as the party of the tinfoil and now that we actually have something to cry foul over,they will refuse to take us seriously,untill everyone of us starts to shout it.
Thank you for mentioning it.It *IS* important that someone like you do this.
Yea, the somthing big post. What was that!
About time someone put the smackdown on that bullshit. Well done.
I agree that one has to be very careful with this issue. But being careful does not mean that nobody should talk about it. And that's what appears to be going on in the mainstream media.
I remember other elections in this country, and the chewing of the cud afterwards lasted so long that everybody was fed up with it. That we hear hardly a peep right now does make me feel very odd. It seems downright scary, at least to the uninitiated.
Especially given the situation on November 1 and earlier on November 2. One would have expected several stories about why things turned out as they did, but I can't find any except for tinfoil stuff and that one argument by a conservative that the exit polls were rigged.
This is not a healthy state of affairs, for me at least.
OMG!!!!111
DID yoiu see KeithE Olberman tonite??!?!!
HE porved the elections was teh STOLENN!@!!!!!!!!!11
And let's listen to the Black Box Voting people -- they aren't looking to overturn this election; just to use the irregularities as the basis for a direly needed national set of rules and regulations on how the machines should be used. Fairness and getting rid of doubt.
I mean, even the Jesus freaks couldn't dispute THAT, could they?!
Agreed. I must say that the cautious approach is proving to be fruitful in Florida.
I am not accusing of anybody of anything. But think about this: Bush "won" Florida by 537 or however-many votes. The state was perfectly split. Let's say both the Bush and Kerry campaigns did fantastic jobs of registering voters and getting them out to vote. Could the Bush campaign have done such a good job to make a 377,000 vote difference? That seems like a HUGE swing to me.
We shall see, apparently.
Greg Palast is a respected BBC journalist. Read his article: http://www.gregpalast.com/detail...artid=392&
row=0
ATRIOS, Y RNT U TALKING BOUT KETH OLBERMANN!!??!?!?!!
U R A FACSIST!!!!!!11
DID U C F9/11???!
I BOT IT ON DVD!!!!!!!!11
OMG OMG!!!!!!
ROVE IS A SUPERHUMAN WE HAVE TO BE SCARED!!!!!111 AND PROTEST!!!!!1 FRAUD LIAR! STOLEN ELDCTION!!11
CYNTHIA MCKINNEY!!!!1
Yea, the somthing big post. What was that!
Digby has a little more on it. GO
Not alot there,but some more info for all you who just cant wait.
Agreed. If it was stolen, it was stolen fair and square. We should push for election reform so it never happens again. Do so levelly and calmly. Because if these ...questions... stand, then they will be emboldened the next time and the next time...
"Remember what happened with the National Guard stuff. CBS ran with the story before they had it fully checked out and it made the whole thing look bogus."
Aethern
-and if any negative news about Dubya came out after CBS's story you can hear the wingnuts try to debunk it with "yeah, it's just like that fake-ass CBS National Guard story."
Also, CBS got (and is) gun-shy after they didn't fully check out the story and got burned as a result.
Exactly Atrios, good post!
As always, right on point Atrios. There is no evidence of fraud, hell, there isn't even evidence that the numbers from Florida are anything other than somewhat "curious"
Have patience people, if there is something there it will be found. And stop asking Atrios to put his ass on the line over supposed "fraudulent elections"
Blogs are finally gaining some legitimate attention (for good or bad) and the second they do we all put on our tin foil hats and do a victory dance for the world? What the fuck is that about?
Yup. My thinking is that, as I said in a thread below, Bush won the Popular Vote, and stole the Electoral. But without proof, that's all tinfoil hat stuff. I'm glad to see it's getting at least some air time, as with Maher, but I'm getting really sick of folks spamming the comments with the same few articles over and over.
Jabbering back and forth on the blogs isn't what will make things happen, anyway. We need to make our feelings known to those who count. I've already written to CBS (they owe us!) and the DNC. One thing we need to try to do is make sure the gov't understands that we just don't trust E-Voting in it's present form, whether this particular election was stolen or not. I would suggest a massive letter-writing campaign, though I have no idea how to go about it. Other than writing my own, of course.
CYNTHIA MCKINNEY!!!!1
What a great peice of news that was.Good for her,and good for the voters to give her her seat back that was taken because she had the balls to stand up to the hunta that rules this country.
Fuckin A, A!
I am sick and tired of reading about it right now.
The more shrill people get, ultimately the less attention will be paid to it.
Olbermann is looking into it (at least his show appears to be doing so).
The GAO is looking into it.
If there is something there, we will hear about it.
The difference between keeping pressure on our media to continue the investigation (politely), and standing around beating our brests, tearing at our clothing demanding accountability is a wide gulf.
Calm down, encourage our media, and/or government representatives in the correct direction, until something, one way or the other comes about.
Like the saying goes: You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.
DAMN!! I was hoping YOU had proof!
This is Atrios' Sistah Souljah moment.
It's very hard to be patient, especially after watching Olberman this evening, but there may be a big payoff. What are the deadlines for certification in Ohio and Florida?
Deadline for completing counts and certification is 10 days in Ohio, don't know about Florida.
Note to lefties: Olberman is pimping you for ratings.
hawkseye
While I regret that Kerry is not leading this country 9at this moment), the pay off to me is not in making Kerry president, it is showing in full daylight the methods and people that would be responsible for fraud. The net effect would be staggering.
Atrios,
I am not a tin foil hat nutjob. However, there were enough voter intimidation efforts and a nationwide effort to supress the Dem. vote to get my radar up.
I hardly think it is nutty to suspect that the Sec. of States of FL an Ohio were doing all they could to ensure the votes of Dems. were tossed out. They were in the open about it.
Only open investigation of the process will tell us what we need to know. It simply won't happen when all branches of government are in the grip of *what ever it takes* to re-select the GOP are ruling the world.
Look, all I want is for the irregularities to be investigated.
If there is no integrity to the electoral process then there's not much point to reorganizing etc. etc.
If they really want to heal the country, convince us that the election was fair and square.
But I don't think calling for reasonable investigations is over the top. Let's look into it and find out what happened.
Greg Palast is known to peddle into conspiracy theories, Scoobie.
In general, people saying that Kerry won without clear definitive proof is reaching Falluja levels of cognitive dissonance. Saying "we won" does not actually me "we won."
I don't understand the outrage here.
"But, the cause is not helped by touting inconclusive statistical studies as "proof" or screaming "kerry won! kerry won!" every five seconds. "
Okay, granted, but consider:
--internet forums such as these tend to lend themselves to a bit of hyperbole. When we say, "we wuz robbed" or "Kerry won", we mean, "Hey, there's a story here, possible election fraud," etc. This is a BIG DEAL.
--we also are well within our rights to be VERY suspicious, given what happened last time.
Yeah, touting various stats as "proof" is inaccurate, but who is doing that? Any reasonable person would agree, I think, with my sentiment, which is:
Let's investigate. LEt's FIND OUT if the election was stolen. Until we do so, forget about '06 or '08 or Harry Reid, b/c if the Repubs have figured out how to steal elections, WE WILL NEVER WIN, even if we ran Christ himself.
.
Thanks for giving a grown-up explanation/answer. Those conspiracy theories drive me crazy.
6 congressmen, a ton of bloggers, many blog readers, a number of reporters, and one Keith Olbermann have covered this story to varying degrees.
The problem with staying mum is this : No one will do anything about it if everyone stays mum.
Yes, piping up repeatedly and touting hearsay, conjecture, and circumstantial evidence can result in everyone laughing the story off.
But what the hell will staying mum do, other than leave it up to the Congressmen and the reporters that ARE willing to proactively look into it?
I don't think most of the media wants this story, so nudging them along isn't bad. It's necessary! And your Congressmen will typically ignore everything without being prodded with a stiff elbow or some campaign $$, so those that are willing to speak up (from 6 different states, I believe) should be commended, not restrained.
The Blogs go wild. Legit stories break. Numbers are crunched. Kerry bites his toungue. Congressmen speak. Olbermann reports.
There are some crazy numbers out there that clearly could have tilted both Florida and Ohio to Bush (by crazy, I mean 2+2 can't equal 11), or at least rendered Kerry's concession speech more than premature based on the plausibility of his victory in OH. Until these crazy numbers are explained, everyone should be shouting from the rooftops to have them explained. Convincingly.
We just have to make "Convincingly" an attainable and reasonable goal for those that will attempt to do the explaining, otherwise no good can come of this.
But clearly, the final tallies can't contain more votes than ballots, or more votes than people. I think that's not too much to ask. I mean, we are picking the leader of the free world.
Note to lefties: Olberman is pimping you for ratings.
Old Hat
Don't think so. I've been watching the guy for a long time. He shoots straight.
Well,
After 6 months of folloiwng this site, I thaught i will make my first post. I have started to think it is a good thing that moron won. Imagine, Kerry trying to do the right thing, the right wing crazies would have never agreed to it.
I think the "anti war" people should become pro war and ask each and every republian to go fight in iraq, after all they are the ones who actually believe iraq has/had weapons of mass destruction, responsible for sept 11, not to mention that they rather go fight the terrorists in Iraq now or they will have to face the terrorists here (heck the republicans have the guns anyway)
They should make this small sacrifice.... or are they going to leave the security of the nation to the LIBRALS?
Note to lefties: Olberman is pimping you for ratings.
You think?
I am not a tin foil hat nutjob. However, there were enough voter intimidation efforts and a nationwide effort to supress the Dem. vote to get my radar up.
Sure. This shit happens every election.
But with a net result of +3.8 million for Bush?
Face it, Kerry and the Democrats got creamed in GOTV effort. It wasn't Diebold. It wasn't X or Y or Z.
The Rove's work with churches and their evangelical base in the 'burbs paid off.
Touche, atrios, touche
We have an administration that certainly stole the 2000 general, and hacked the 2002 mid terms.
In the mean time committed a BUNCH of high crimes and misdemeanors and were at least as impeachable as Clinton, and lookin pretty indictable to boot! To say that they could not afford to loose their positions or let either house "get away" is putting it mildly.
Anybody think there is something familiar about this with the 2000 general?
The late "turn around" the long lines at targeted precincts the early polling results?
Well, what might be scaring people is that the Rethugs aren't going to care, even after it is proven.
Thing about Palast is that after his conspiracy theories aired on wild-eyed Anti-Semitic fringe newsletter "the BBC", motherfucker, the company accused CONFESSED TO EVERYTHING. There is not one "terrorist" in the concentration camp at Guantanamo of whom we can talk about hard evidence, a real case or a real confession.
DIEBOLD, ES&S,SEQUOIA, SCIENCE APPLICATIONS, All companies have close connections with Republican party and are Bush fundraisers
google: blackbox voter fraud, the carlyle group .
you dont have to be a conspirasist, these are merely the facts.
hey if it smells fishy its usually rotten & this stinks to high heaven.
Yes, you are correct that at this time there is no definitive proof this election was won by fraud. And, yes, some have gotten way ahead of the story. But, at this point, so what?
I think our 'capital' is better spent encouraging them to dig, rather than cooling their ardor with a tut-tutting opinion piece that one would expect to read in the NYT's.
"Note to lefties: Olberman is pimping you for ratings."
Who cares? If that's what it takes to get the media to cover the right stories, that's fine by me.
Atrios, please understand that no one is paying attention to this, at least before tonight. If we are getting increasingly shrill, that's why. Maybe not the best approach, but if this election has taught me anything, it's that you don't stick with a strategy that isn't working. So if no one listens when we say things in a non-shrill manner, we turn to shrillness in sheer desperation.
If there is anything to this story, it is a big deal, bigger than Watergate. It's worth a looking into, and apparently, "Ahem, please, excuse me, could we, perhaps, maybe, see if there was, you know, some fraud taking place?" hasn't been getting results.
Was I stunned that they actually found even more fundamentalist nutjobs to vote for Bush? Yes.
Was I saddened to see that Generation PlayStation chose to sit on its fat, collective ass and play DeathBots 3000 Ultra while chugging Big Gulps instead of voting? You bet.
We lost. It sucks.
Now we have to get back to work.
It's a human rights issue.
F--- the winner in 04 -- it's about voting being the foundation of all our other rights.
This is bigger than Bush or Kerry.
Welcome back Atrios.
Major combat operations have ended in Iraq.
Good post. You can commit fraud when it's less than 1%, but Ohio was about 2%. That would be really hard to fake in my opinion.
Downtown Lad
My Blog - Downtown Lad - Gay conservative
The Rove's work with churches and their evangelical base in the 'burbs paid off.
Not true.IIRC THe evangelical vote was almost the same in percentages as in 2000.THe only thing the RR did was to guide the campaign,not the other way around.
Read and sign A Petition to Congress requesting an investigation into the Presidential Election of 2004.
http://www.petitiononline.com/us...t/
petition.html
Even if ol' Atrios is not for it (right now). Maybe it's coz he has more important things on his mind (right now).
Sure. This shit happens every election.
But with a net result of +3.8 million for Bush?
Actually, if there was fraud it wouldn't be that much harder to change larger numbers than smaller numbers. I am not saying that anything of the sort happened, just that the argument that large numbers work against looking for irregularities is not a very strong one. It would be if one could prove that most of the Bush extra support came from fair and properly run elections, but if that is what we are trying to look at relying on the three plus millions as counterproof doesn't work.
DIEBOLD, ES&S,SEQUOIA, SCIENCE APPLICATIONS, All companies have close connections with Republican party and are Bush fundraisers
google: blackbox voter fraud, the carlyle group .
Jesus Christ, everyone has heard this about one billion times at this point. Give it a rest. Please.
We lost. Too bad.
"But with a net result of +3.8 million for Bush? "
The 3.8 million number is irrelevant. Who cares about the popular vote? Say, hypothetically, Ohio or Florida was stolen: would we really want to just let it go, simply b/c Bush won the popular vote?
That seems nuts.
It would be if one could prove that most of the Bush extra support came from fair and properly run elections, but if that is what we are trying to look at relying on the three plus millions as counterproof doesn't work.
Exit polling was dead on correct.
Kevin Drum has spent the last week debunking the "exit polls were all wrong" line of attack.
Fallujah is a safe haven for people that go around chopping people's heads off.
Look, you want to believe Jeb hit the Diebold Victory button at about 4pm on Nov. 2, be my guest. I might believe it too. But belief isn't evidence.
excellent point. irregularities do not equate to widespread fraud, as much as we would like for this to be so.
i agree with some of the above posts. shoring up the authenticity of the process is potentially a strong issue for Dems. i was appalled that the media treated the RNC's voter suppression tactics as synonymous with the "uber" registration efforts by the Dem 527s. future disenfranchisement attempts must be called for what they are--illegal, immoral, and downright unamerican. this would be more likely to happen following a constructive dialogue about current problems, sans conspiracy theories.
No, everyone is right, it's definitely fishy.
But what big corporation that has a connection to Bush hasn't been wildly rewarded in the last few years? It's entirely possible that the big contracts to just build the voting machines was the payoff, rather than the company turning back around to wipe things for Bush.
We do need a national system of elections, though. New York's got those old machines, and they're still more trustworthy than them there newfangled machinations... why not go back to the days of metal and paper?
isn't this like any other crime? there are different standards of evidence for different stages?
1. evidence that a crime may have been committed - time for an investigation
2. evidence that a specific individual may be guilty of the crime - time for an indictment.
3. evidence of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt - time for a conviction.
atrios, while i agree that it's counter productive for folks to be claiming we're at stage 3 - imo, it is also counter productive to claim that we are not at stage 1.
there is evidence that a crime may have been committed. and given the seriousness of the crime in question - it is time for a massive and transparent investigation. and i do wish that blogs such as yours, dkos and others would make the case for such an investigation.
but, it's your place... so all i can do is ask. and hope you don't find my request too annoying.
Atrios,
I don't have an informed opinion on whether or not the R's stole the election; but it would be useful to survey all the irregularites that have been documented and see if they consistently work to the disadvantage of Kerry and other Democratic candidates. If that is the case, then there is indeed cause for suspicion and intensive investigations. I hang around exclusively in the Lefty blogosphere, so I don't know if there have been any reports of Republicans with complaints about voting technology or process issues. My hunch is that 90% of the problems with the election impact negatively on Democrats, and most particularly upon urban minorities.
Not only would it be nuts to let it go b/c Bush won the popular, it would be wrong.
While the electoral system is necessary, good ideas need to be brought forward. We spent 4 years saying Bush lost the popular (and the electoral, some argue) vote, and thus his legitimacy was in question. If Kerry gets 200k more votes in Ohio, and still loses by 3.4 million in the popular, he's President.
Only once the Republicans win the popular and lose the electoral will we get reform. Though with the current legislature, I'm not holding my breath, even IF OH is somehow overturned.
The 3.8 million number is irrelevant.
No, that's wrong.
537 votes in Florida? That's vote fraudable.
Not 150,000 votes in Ohio with swarms of lawyers, volunteers and TV cameras watching every presinct.
You're wasting your energy fighting battles that have already been lost.
The 3.8 million number is irrelevant. Who cares about the popular vote?
Jasin, where were you in 2000? Gore won the PopVote by half a million, and we cared quite a bit.
He lost the Electoral by 527, and we cared about that, too. Still do, matter of fact.
Truthfully, I'm all for shitcanning the EC, which would mean Bush won it fair and square. Well, that's democracy fer ya.
"belief isn't evidence"
VERY true. That's why we need to find the evidence, IF it is out there.
We commenters are perhaps being "shrill", but that's because we are more or less powerless to do much about this story; I can write my congressperson and my local paper etc. etc., but the fact is that only mainstream media attention will get anything sorted out.
Also, it seems like time is of the essence with this. IF -- hypothetically -- there was some funny business, it is important to try to get to the bottom of it ASAP, before Bush is sworn in.
Hey, I have the video of Olbermann's piece on the Cinn. story and the rest of the voter fraud story on line at
http://www.crooksandliars.com/
The funniest one is the Alan Simpson rant on Bill Maher though! Also did anyone check out Dobson on Stephanop. on Sunday. Well it's on the site too and that is scary. They are committed to try and get a conservative on the bench! Atrios is very level headed about this story. The liberal bias issue never dies for the righties and CBS threw a lot of fuel on the fire.
Nice point Echidne, and IMHO it would not take a bunch of folks to do it either. I am thinkin short code into ram with a rewrite of the disk after loading into ram. first (frist?) reboot and nothing.
easy, too easy.
Read and sign A Petition to Congress requesting an investigation into the Presidential Election of 2004.
http://www.petitiononline.com/us...t/
petition.html
Even if ol' Atrios is not for it (right now). Maybe it's coz he has more important things on his mind (right now).
Well said Atrios.
I'm willing to bet something funky went on. I'll keep it to myself though!
Kevin Drum has spent the last week debunking the "exit polls were all wrong" line of attack.
I happen to think Kevin is wrong.Look at the N.H. race.THe exit polls had Kerry way ahead and the race turnd into a nailbiter.Something is wrong with that picture.
Now I am not as up to speed on the exit polls in FL,and Oh,but if we look at the end of voting in Ohio.alot of voters were still voting way after 7pm.
3.8 million votes are easy to come up with nation wide.It is in the "swing states" that votes really matter.and this is where they are so funky on the face of it.We havent seen any of the numbers from any of the other states,but I would be willing to bet money that we will see the same kind of irregularities in almost every state.
The best evidence I've seen, and I think it's somewhat persuasive, is here.
And I'm covering these allegations on my blog, without incendiary and conclusory statements, because it is my obligation to do so. I'm frankly disappointed that more don't feel similarly.
You can click here for information. Not for conclusions. Not many others are giving you that option.
It's as if lefty bloggers don't trust lefty-blog readers to assess and make their own judgment.
I think the Republicans stole all the Senate and House seats as well. They also manipulated the anti-gay measures on state ballots.
If you prove it, do you think Kerry wouldn't prove even more intractable than the last team in their support of their competitors? It's a waste of time (except for losers who care about law and history).
Middle America just said via the election that they are tired of the shrillness and rhetoric from the left. Bush/Hitler comparisons have the reverse effect now. I would think it is in our best interest to stop the cries of fraud and think for a minute.
Kerry conceded, so IF fraud is found, the most that will happen is that those directly involved, the hackers, etc. will go to trial, it will not be tied to the presidency, and since Kerry conceded, the proof of fraud won't change the result of the election.
There are left groups that are seeking the computer logs of the voting machines. Under the Freedom of Information Act, we should continue to investigate fraud for history's sake and for justice, but we should continue that investigation on our own, without a big noise, and we should turn our voice to working on the coming years.
I'm not talking about the election being stolen, I'm talking about
1 - Why were almost ALL the exit polls wrong?
2 - Why are there significant and troubling problems with the results from the smaller Florida counties where the election tallies are much more prone to human intervention?
http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
It's not conspiracy, it's not sour grapes; it's trying to understand some very weird happenings in light of a very close election.
It doesn't take a grand conspiracy. It just takes a lot of people with a vested interest to act independently in a sneaky and unethical way.
Old hat, what is your agenda? what is this move along BS. There is nothing in our democracy more improtant than free and FAIR elections. It is the basic, fundemental, civil right.
Don't you agree?
Thanks for telling us what happened. I'm sure others were just as curious as I was.
Although most of us are probably "convinced" that their was fraud, you're absolutely right about needing "proof" before making accusations.
For some insight into what it looks like when people cry "unfair" without proof, take a look at Taiwan's opposition -- which has been behaving like crybabies/gangsters (sometimes simultaneously!) for over 7 months since they lost the presidential election in March. Their "Bulletgate" brochure is full of wild accusations ("The incumbent party milked the [non-fatal election eve] shooting [of the president and vice-president] to maximum effect") and outright lies ("peaceful" rallies, my ass!), but lacks any evidence.
When the hard evidence is compiled, we can -- and will -- make our case. Until then, we should learn from the mistakes of Taiwan's opposition just as they should learn something from John Kerry's concession.
Click the "Homepage" link below to read lots more about the Taiwan situation.
FUCK THE ELECTION. GET FUCKING AILES AND LIMBAUGH AND CLEAR CHANNEL. GET YOUR PITCHFORKS OUT. LET'S GO AFTER THESE MOTHERFUCKERS.
No one is saying don't investigate the anomalies. I don't think anyone would week if the touch screen voting machines died a premature death. They are unworkable, even with paper printouts (the receipt could say one thing, the computer could report another).
But to say, the "system is broken" is a far cry from "Bush stole the election". And by making unsupported claims, we do two things:
1) we won't be taken seriously when REAL evidence appears. We don't want to be the boy who cried wolf; and
2) we turn voting reform into a partisan issue. If we want real reform, it has to be bipartisan. The voter problems, as reported so far (and I acknowledge evidence of real fraud may still come to light), is damning in its own light. Let's not sour potential allies by screaming about fraud that simply cannot be proven.
If voter fraud existed, then us bloggers would be at the forefront of the fight. But we claim to be the reality based community. If we subscribe to theories without proper support, we are no better than those who cling to the fantasy that Saddam and OBL were best friends and Iraq had WMDs.
"Truthfully, I'm all for shitcanning the EC, which would mean Bush won it fair and square. Well, that's democracy fer ya."
That's not exactly right, though. The whole election & campaign was structured around the EC, so the number who turned out to vote on Nov. 2 in an election that was geared toward the EC is not necessarily the same as what would have happened if there was no EC.
For instance, how many more people in California or TExas would have voted if they had known that their vote would actually count?
The 2000 election was illegitimate, I feel, not because Gore won by half a million and therefore should have been president, but b/c we were deprived of a true, fair, representative election -- i.e., one based on the popular vote. So Bush took office without having won or lost, in a sense. THAT was the problem, not that Bush lost but took office anyway.
(N.B.: I am leaving out issues about Florida's electoral votes, and assuming for sake of argument that Bush won Florida.)
In case it wasn't clear -- I fully support asking questions and fishing around for answers. There's enough that stinks that even if we don't have corruption (which we could), we have incompetence and technical flaws.
537 votes in Florida? That's vote fraudable.
I beg to differ that the 537 is easier to tamper with than the 3.8 million.
Too close, and a recount is asked for. Too big and things look fishy. 150,000 is nothing, really. Especially when you think about the fact that 150,000 isn't really the number. It's more like 70 or 80 thousand, once the absentee and provisionals come in. They FIND stacks of uncounted ballots with thousands.
If the fix was in, there's no difference between changing 1 in 4 votes in a county of 500, and changing 1 in 8 votes in a county of 50,000. In terms of difficulty, that is. Now, getting AWAY with it might vary in difficulty...
I like that prominent bloggers are here debating the issues, and I think we can all agree that it's too early to draw conclusions.
But why the suppression of responsible speculation?
I've seen it on Kos.
And who are these idiots e-mailing Atrios? We never do this and he despises us, so anyone presumptuous enough to dictate in the man's mailbox must be a real headache.
YOU DO NOT HAVE
ANY IDEAS
ON HOW TO RUN ATRIOS.BLOGSPOT.COM
SO SHUT UP
AND BE HAPPY WITH WHAT IT IS.
Kevin Drum has spent the last week debunking the "exit polls were all wrong" line of attack.
Irregardless of the validity or not of this line of thought, I'm hardly gonna put my faith in a handwringing moderate capitulator like Drum on anything important. Is he still pimping for Pollack and bitching about the smelly hippies calling the President a liar in time of war? I mean, really, old man!
Having said that, I agree that the best way to attack the "voting irregularity" problem would be a steady, sturdy, professional investigation that was determined to get to the bottom of it one way or another. I just don't see that happening, or at least not with any urgency.
Congratulations Atrios for at least putting yourself out there with your opinion and dealing with the issue. Too many people on the left are acting like it isn't there and just hoping it will go away.
k&y,
cut the crap. I've put up with your "OT: ISRAEL!!" posts on every fucking threads for the past 18 months. Get your own blog if your Truth is so powerful.
"Kerry conceded"
Doesn't matter. A 'concession' speech or phone call is for public consumption, and is not legally binding.
I think. Am I wrong? It's hard to see how on Earth a stupid concession could make a difference.
Junior won Ohio by 150,000 votes?
Is this right?
Shit,you can rip off 150,000 votes without even sneezing in Ohio.
Why are some willing to ceede this little error?
I dont get it?
After 2000,some of us here are willing to let the investigation slide into oblivion.I refuse.I hope that those that matter in the investigation dont take the defeatist attitude I see here tonite.
Granted,"belief isn't evidence"
But evidence does equal belief.Are we willing to give up the right to obtain evidence?
There is no issue more important to this nation than having an honest and transparent system of voting. That's the bottom line on this issue.
Whether or not anybody can prove the election was stolen, the system is badly broken because it cannot be trusted. I heard somewhere this evening...Olbermann or Air America...that 39% of Americans do not trust the results of the election. That's not just a few nutjobs in tinfoil.
I understand that Atrios doesn't want to run around screaming that the sky is falling. But A-man, I'm glad you posted on the topic, because there are far too many legitimate questions not to mention the issues.
1 - Why were almost ALL the exit polls wrong?
They weren't. Read WashingtonMonthly.com since Nov. 2. Drum debunks this myth. The exit polls, as the night went on, were correct and matched the actual vote.
Old hat, what is your agenda? what is this move along BS.
Don't even think about starting this "you aren't really on our side" bullshit with me.
My "agenda" is to grant the screechers a clue -- that Kerry and the Democrats were relatively wiped out in the last election by losing even more seats in the Senate, the House and losing the White House to an illiterate baboon.
Wake up. Smell coffee. Understand the facts of the election, no matter how awful the truth may be.
We're in the minority party now, there's no doubt about it. It blows. I don't like it. Which means that instead insisting that BlackBoxVoting is being hacked by MechaRove and the FBI and anyone who doesn't believe the election was stolen is a CIA plant or whatever, we should concentrate our efforts on taking back some House seats in 2006. And doing anything we can to investigate the fuck out of Bush and try to bring him down.
An OT interruption;
Atrios at 12:47; that really you? I've seen a few comments lately by you--or someone--without the email & homepage filled in, and asumed it was a name stealing Troll. In fact, I called one of "you" a Troll a week or so ago. If that was the real you, my apologies. If not, fuck 'em.
We now return you to the Tinfoil Hat Hour, already in progress...
Guys: We everyone thought we were heading for a recount, the discussion was on 'framing the debate' about a recount. Rove knows how to make those asking for a recount look dirty. So, Kerry conceded, which has no legal standing, and looks great. It is up to others to calmly look into this and at the least get 'everyone' behind fixing these machines before the next election.
Final note: when Republicans start to claim that there was fraud in the exit polling and that they want an investigation, that looks like a manouver to frame the debate on the wrong topic once again.
Atrios,
I don't see why we have to be on the defensive regarding proof.
Prove to me that it wasn't!
Are you calling Greg Palast a liar when he says "Kerry won"?
Add up all the facts:
Diebold.
Voter suppression.
The fact the RNC fought a paper trail.
etc.
The fact that the exit polls don't match up.
I use this as my proof, until otherwise debunked.
www.gregpalast.com
www.blackboxvoting.org
WHEN everyone...
its not about winning or losing...it's about truth and democracy. do we have an open government? do we a fair and accessible way of voting for all voters? is every vote being counted? and by whom? do these machines allow backdoor hacking to take place? do we know the answer to these questions? there are enough irregularities to warrant a serious look. I suspect the answers may offer a chilling insight into just how far the vast right wing conspiracy really is. the term itself "vast right wing conspiracy" effectivley drowned by right wing propaganda campaigns...i wonder why?
Not 150,000 votes in Ohio with swarms of lawyers, volunteers and TV cameras watching every presinct.
Those lawyers, volunteers and TV cameras couldn't possibly see what was going on inside the vote tabulation machines, and that's exactly the problem with closed-source programming privatized by companies with political agendas.
Old Hat, I don't understand why you don't even seem open to the idea that something wicked may be afoot. If it makes you feel better, okay. But some of us feel it's vital that this issue be resolved beyond ANY doubt. A bunch of us didn't work to GOTV and get sore feet and sunburns and sleep deprivation on November 2, not to mention all the work for years beforehand, just to ignore clear weirdness that IS being investigated. I'm going to wait and see what turns up. You don't have to, but many of us will.
Anyone who's interested: Throw Bev a few bucks at blackboxvoting.org.
WHEN everyone...
Why, for example, is no one talking about Dick Morris' column in the Hill where he concludes, on the exit poll fiasco:
"This was no mere mistake. Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play."
Dick Morris may be a whore but he ain't no nutjob. But there has been a vast silence on the part of the bloggy left. I've looked; trust me.
[I don't spam comments. But I feel strongly enough about this to post multiple times. Sue me.]
I agree with Atrios that we don't "know" that fraud occurred at this point. However, without people on the radio like Randi Rhodes, Mike Malloy, and Laura Flanders riling up the base, so they will be motivated to write letters, and help in the effort to get to the bottom of the issue, I fear it would go nowhere.
The impression that I get from Atrios and the leadership of the "Democratic" Party is that people should tone down the sense of alarm that they have. I think if you're not alarmed by the spectre of "Election Theft V2.0", you probably voted for the other guy.
Somewhat related -- You know what I hate? Being reminded that Kerry's concession wasn't legally binding.
Years ago, I got dumped by a guy I was nuts about. One night not long after the breakup, I ran into mutual friends who told me how miserable he was without me, which only gave me false hope -- he never said so himself and the relationship remained ended, and I felt even worse than I would have if my friends hadn't said anything.
Unless Kerry speaks up, it's over.
I like the ATM test. Would you withdraw money from a machine that is not audit capable? When someone fights against an means of accurate voting, that is a warning to me...
Agreed. If it was stolen, it was stolen fair and square. We should push for election reform so it never happens again. Do so levelly and calmly. Because if these ...questions... stand, then they will be emboldened the next time and the next time...
nyt reader |
Okay who dug up the year 2,000 archives.
Paper trail voting reciepts are sooooo 9-10 of you...
Bev Harris is an unreliable idiot, sadly.
Exit polling was dead on correct.
Kevin Drum has spent the last week debunking the "exit polls were all wrong" line of attack.
I went and read through his posts and I also read his links. He does not prove that the exit polls are correct, and neither does the statistical link he provides. It shows that the exit polls correlate with the final results, but it also shows that they show a consistently better outcome for Kerry than the actual results.
If the exit polls were wrong due to random error, we'd expect some of them to find too high Bush numbers compared to the actual Bush numbers, but this doesn't seem to happen.
It could be that something about the way the exit polls were taken introduced a bias towards Kerry, but this has not been explained anywhere to my satisfaction.
It's not that the exit polls were wrong. It's that they were only wrong for the Presidential race, while they got the various Republican-leaning federal elections right.
It's not that exit polls are always wrong, in fact they're used to validate elections as free of fraud, and are usually accurate.
It's not that the exit polls CAN NOT be wrong, it's that the odds of them always favoring Kerry over Bush... wrongly... and in the Swing States but not others... is really, shall I say, convenient.
Add up all the facts:
Diebold.
Voter suppression.
The fact the RNC fought a paper trail.
etc.
The fact that the exit polls don't match up.
For fuck's sake, will you read the goddamned entire week's worth of analysis that Kevin Drum did before you spout off this Internet horseshit one more time? There is clear, empircal evidence that Bush won.
There is zero proof that Diebold won the election.
Greg Palast is not Christ on Earth. Greg Palast is a self-promoting publicity hound who gives mad props to that dictator Hugo Chavez and his unfortunate habits of jailing homos and people who write for newspapers.
Here's an idea: Try not reading DemocraticUnderground and BBV forums for one week and see if you become more sane.
Middle America just said via the election that they are tired of the shrillness and rhetoric from the left. Bush/Hitler comparisons have the reverse effect now. I would think it is in our best interest to stop the cries of fraud
Dumb, fucking stupid fraud idiot. Lying on a daily basis by your fraud CIC alone should cause you shame.
But I don't expect you know shame; supporting a failed individual, as you do, to send thousands off to their death for many lies in Iraq, destroying God's green Earth, and turning over the wealth of our nation to corporate interests that will eat your earning power and degrade your future and that of your kids.
Your *values* are our demise.
I am one of those who has said things like, "The election was stolen", without proof. Yes.
I say this because I assume I am among friends in a forum like this, and that we all share a deep distrust of Rove & co, and a belief that they will basically stop at nothing to win.
Suppose I said something like:
"Bush only invaded Iraq so he could prove that he was better than his father."
I don't necessarily believe this, but if I said it, I would have zero evidence for it. But so what? I'm not in a courtroom. I'm not even a pundit on television. If I said the above, some would agree, some would not, but I don't think I would get too much shit for saying it w/o having the evidence to back it up.
?
It shows that the exit polls correlate with the final results, but it also shows that they show a consistently better outcome for Kerry than the actual results.
That's a non-sequitur. Which is it? From what I read, the polls correlated with the vote tabulature damn nigh perfectly.
Listen, 95% of the adult population has realized that Bush won, not through vote fraud, Diebold, etc., etc. but through them having more voters than us.
Get over it.
I stopped reading the comments for a week because of the trolls and the endless "we wuz robbed" posts on every single thread.
At 12:59 we told people nagging Atrios with the truth to shut up, and at 1 "he" attacks us as those people. We really don't think this is reasonable given that we don't only comment about the mentioned subject, we actually have had a lot of time without mentioning it (especially after what we perceived as a disturbing lack of variety being varied, ie other people talking in more than one way about it), so it is not possible that we trolled/blogwhored on this, and we are not by a long shot the worst semi-troll thing on here (one starts with an "albert").
(Incidentally, the point of the "OT: [censored]" header is so people can skip the comment if they don't want to read it. It's the opposite of dishonest blogwhoring tricks like saying you're linking to one thing when you're actually directing people to your own site. We read back through threads and OT-labeled bits all the time).
You're scolding the wrong people and you're on the wrong side of the issue as far as I'm concerned. I fiind this is true of most of the major bloggers on the left. Denial, 'strategy', whatever it is, to many people, it's a failure of the internet left to see what's in front of all our faces. Don't tell people not to scream until you find out whether they have a right to scream. Find out why their screaming.
Try not reading DemocraticUnderground and BBV forums for one week and see if you become more sane.
I think Old Hat has had his name stolen.
Kerry conceded the race. Should fraud be found, it would take more than 4 years of investigation to track it to the upper eschelons of the right, I would imagine. It won't change this election. People won't get to vote again, rather those votes that are determined to be fraudulent would be discarded. If that ends up putting Kerry over the top, then that means we have a case in history where the winner conceded the race to the loser. We need to continue the investigation but we need to accept that it won't change this election. It just won't and nobody wants it to more than me, but we need to be realistic and look at how we can win. The way to do that is to win over middle America. And middle America is saying 'if you don't shut up with the fraud rhetoric, we aren't going to listen to anything else you have to say'. Makes it difficult to win them over.
Okay Atrios my friend, we don't have "proof" that the election was stolen. However, and with all due respect, it is also true that you have to trust what you see and what you hear and what you feel sometimes. Sometimes you don't have "proof" but you know instinctively without "proof" that your suspicions are correct. Then it takes some digging to find the proof of course, but in this case do you think the folks who stole the election didn't give great thought to hiding that proof? Are we forever doomed to "proving" what we know to be true. After all, the creationists say there is no "proof" for evolution right? They stole the election and I feel confident the whole story will come out in time. Or on another issue, we don't have absolute "proof" that Bush could have and should have done something, anything to stop the attacks on 9/11 and we don't have proof that he could have taken some other action on that fateful day but chose not to right? Look, our opponents are criminals. They stole the election. Again, I am confident the whole story will be revealed in time.
Reality Bites: Yeah, it sure does, some times. Unfortunately, so does Greg Palast. I've heard him a few times on Pacifica, and he has a self-promoting sound about him. Real Art Bell material. He might be right about some things, but I just instinctively don't trust him all that much. I went to his website and read his article on the election, and he spent a lot of time on "spoiled votes", but had little in the way of real evidence. Spoiled votes do not a stolen election make. Not with a 3.8M margin.
Palast gets a lot of mentions hereabouts, and I'm probably ruffling a few feathers, but WTF.
The democrats have become the party of the abused woman. If only we are good, accept what the master has told us and behave as he wants us to, he won't beat us again. Well that''s not how abusers work. As long as we continue to play their game we will keep getting beaten over and over again. For God's sake, have some guts and don't be so cowed by the fear that somebody might say you're whining. People before us have died for the right to vote. But we're going to sit back and wait until all the evidence is destroyed to try to do anything about it? Well if they didn't steal the election this time, they will next time, because it's clear we're not even going to try to stand up for ourselves. Maybe we really shouldn't be in charge of national security. We're more concerned about what people think of than we are of protecting democracy.
And when I started writing that post about hating hearing about Kerry's non-binding concession, nobody here had yet mentioned it -- so nothing personal, Jasin and anyone else...
But man, there's just the faintest glimmer of hope when I'm reminded of that... And then I have to talk myself down. Ouch.
"Note to lefties: Olberman is pimping you for ratings."
Good.
Maybe the networks will see a huge demographic that's being completely ignored in the current lineup, and subsequently make some programming alterations.
Oh who am I kidding. They'll fire him and put on Dennis Miller again.
jasin, sounds to me like there are those of us who are into circular firing squads (Karry is a lame-o!) and those of us who are more suspicious of the right than of the left.
Ah, well, you know the old Will Rogers saying...I belong to no organized political party, I'm a Democrat.
(Lee is arguing about conflating faith and evidence. This will probably not work.)
People, sex House members have written to the GAO requesting an investigation already.
And for God's sake, he didn't say "don't investigate," he said "don't make claims you can't corroborate."
How about the question of how the Repubs would be screaming if all the shit that has been pulled by them, had actually been pulled by the Dems, and we had won? Think about it, Dem. CEO's of electronic voting machine companies, Dem. SoS's , Dem. election officials in hotly contested counties, Dems harassing Repub. voters, watching whole counties that usually vote Repub. suddenly vote Democrat ? Shouldn't the underlying motivation here be to simply get the truth? If all of the votes have been counted, and they have all been counted correctly, than I can accept the outcome as legitimate. Until that time I personally cannot trust the system. Uncover every inconsistency, prosecute anyone who appears to have broken the laws, and if anything "suspicious" turns up shortly, suspend the election results until the matter can be investigated properly.
Pat Robertson Presents: The 700 Club Guide to Terrorism
"But the purpose of this presentation is a guide to the most grave threat to the American family - Terrorism. In it, I will lay out the facts and speak with you honestly about this ghastly world movement, and many times I may even get into the darker, more salacious aspects of this vile undertaking because all good Christians need to understand the dangers. It may even prevent you from speaking with people who wear laundry on their heads or write scribbly-looking languages which are the work of satanic influences and a liberal high court trying to protect these heathen minions of extremism."
another AMEN to Atrios (no joke intended, and also WAY BIG PROPS to Keith Olbermann's Countdown for addressing this very sensitive & scary issue.)
i, for one (and being one of the Friday "hair on fire" people,) absolutely reiterate that:
1. this is NOT a partisan issue-we should ALL care--IF anything was messed with or hacked, we do NOT know WHO did it--what if it was Al Queda? what if it was some loopy hacker kid from ANYWHERE in the world?
2. we can NOT cry "stolen" or "foul" in this particlar issue, until we know, and we very well end up with a score that's even higher for Bush--but again, Kerry v. Bush is NOT the point.
3. muddying this by making it partisan does not help anyone (LEAST of all, the Kerry voters!)
anyway, THANK YOU Atrios for speaking honestly about the issue, and most of us here DO understand why you were holding off (may also explain the utter absence of Kerry/Edwards campaign people on the TV talk circuit this weekend.)
what we have to stay laser-point focused on, is getting a firm, certain, accounting (EVEN if it ends up making OUR side LOSE votes in OH, FLA, etc.)
i am right now watching the Olbermann Countdown that i taped while i was at work this evening, and again, i urge people here to go to the MSNBC site and give props to Olbermann, or to his bosses--no one else wants to address this on TV, and he is BIG TIME putting his ass on the line to say anything at all!
we need to stay sane, we need to stay calm, and we need to keep talking about the issues within the frame of saving our Democracy & Voter Confidence & Transparency in Government/Elections!
"they" WANT us to come out screaming "theft" and so on, do NOT fall into that trap. if we do, the whole story will be dismissed, we'll NEVER know what happened, and we'll never be able to trust the electoral systems here again.
-L.
"Listen, 95% of the adult population has realized that Bush won, not through vote fraud, Diebold, etc., etc. but through them having more voters than us.
Get over it. "
If I didn't know better, I'd swear this was coming from a Bushie.
What did we hear from the right time and again after the 2000 election?
"Get over it."
Either the election was stolen, or it wasn't. If it was, it is certainly not something we should just "get over".
Of course, we don't whether or not it was stolen. None of us does. We just don't know.
SO to call those who would like to see a full investigation children and tinfoil hatters is completely unwarranted.
I SUSPECT fraud. DO I have evidence? No, that's why I only suspect it. If I had evidence, I would KNOW it.
We can't find out whether my suspicion is correct or not w/o a full investigation.
An investigation will not just happen while we sit on our hands waiting patiently.
Completely OT
Can I just say re: Falluja;
Not in my name.
Good night
Try not reading DemocraticUnderground and BBV forums for one week and see if you become more sane.
I think Old Hat has had his name stolen.
No, it's me.
Democratic Underground is useful for one thing: the Latest Break News forum, and only the lead post with the actual link to the story. Everything below that is masterbatory and useless.
Some (most) of the posters there are clinically insane ("missiles under the 9/11 planes, Israel bombed NYC/WDC, PNAC controls everything," etc). The threads and other forums are bland echo chambers for people to feed on their own delusions.
BBV forums are even worse.
You all are looking at irregularities that can't be proven or don't involve enough votes to make a difference in the election.
Look at the opti-scan macines in Florida vs the E-touch machines results.
All E-touch machine results followed party voter registrations very close.
The opti-scans showed huge swings to Bush across the board.
If you take the ratios of party registrations to party votes of the E-touch machines and apply them to the opti-scan machines, which I spent 3 hours doing Sunday, the result is Kerry wins by 248,000 votes, giving him florida and the United States presidency.
The good news is the opti-scan machines have a paper trail, it's just a matter of time until a manual count is made.
i think this has already been done, since Jeff Fisher US congressional candidate met with the FBI on Saturday about it.
what bugs me is, even though Thom Hartmanns article on it has made it all over the internet, including Agonist, buzzflash and Michael Moore's site not one peep from any major news sources.
I'm not talking about the election being stolen, I'm talking about
1 - Why were almost ALL the exit polls wrong?
2 - Why are there significant and troubling problems with the results from the smaller Florida counties where the election tallies are much more prone to human intervention?
http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
It's not conspiracy, it's not sour grapes; it's trying to understand some very weird happenings in light of a very close election.
It doesn't take a grand conspiracy. It just takes a lot of people with a vested interest to act independently in a sneaky and unethical way.
Not with a 3.8M margin.Not with a 3.8M margin.
The margin was 130k in Ohio. Probably under 100k after the provisional ballots come in. The electoral college was designed to protect against war-mongering demagogues like Bush.
First of all the tin foil hat is just for fun - The speculation about s stolen vote is a fair one.
According to the US census between elections Ohio's population increased only by less than 100,000 and yet this year 1,000,000 more people voted than did in 2000. The new votes were split between the two parties.
Bush got 500,000 new votes in Ohio? How is this even remotely possible with job losses and a war built on lies and outsourcing and unseemly ties to the Sauds and war profiteers and Abu Ghraib? (short list)
This must have been a small army. Was it witnessed?
In the Republican counties the RV's turn out at a rate 10 points higher than in Democratic counties - as a rule, this oddity is true in Florida as well.
Just saying that if the exit polls weren't reflecting any such army of energized new Bush voters, maybe it never happened.
http://tinyurl.com/4vclm Ohio Census - pdf
Ohio 2000 results http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000...N/2000/results/
Ohio 2004 results http://surveyusa.com/
currentelec...ctionpolls.html
It begs a question or two.
"so nothing personal, Jasin and anyone else..."
None taken!
I know what you mean, too. I think I was reluctant at first to pay attention to allegations of fraud for precisely the reason you don't want to hear about the non-legality of Kerry's concession, i.e. not wanting to get my hopes up.
My hopes aren't up, at least not very high. I expected Kerry to win; when he didn't, I was devastated. I don't really expect anything to be done about the possible fraud. I'll still bitch and moan about it, but I have no illusions like I did with the election.
I think that according to even Kevin Drum, the exit polls were corrected post-facto based on the returns, not the other way around. The revised versions only count if you trust the numbers as they are.
as far as numbers and machine vote tallys, look, the way its done is as if you were editing an Excel sheet. all you have to do is add digits. anyone could do it who had access to the central tabulator. now, there are definitely many instances of irregular functioning of the machines. that's what we've got so far, irregular vote tallys, nothing more nothing less. But, these are problems which have been known about for years, all of this was predicted to happen ahead of time by everyone who was looking into the machines. And people took pains to keep them in place against all advice.
proof is what you end up with at the end of an investigation. we need that investigation. not in search of some pre-determined proof, but because if elections don't show transparency, the government isn't worth a dime.
Sometimes you don't have "proof" but you know instinctively without "proof" that your suspicions are correct
Yeah, The Police arrest, and DAs prosecute, and judges sentence folks to prison that way alla time. We scream when they do it, but it's OK for us? No. Write letters, demand an honest system, keep yer fingers crossed. I really thing the gov't would respond much better to a perception of public distrust of the whole E-Voting system, than to any specific allegations of fraud. Even if "real" evidence of Bush fraud can be shown, we're probably stuck with him. I'm looking more toward 2006, myself.
atrios, what about the 97,000 extra votes in cuyohoga county? pull your head out your ass, you fucking freeper. remember 2000? what the fuck is wrong with you? whose paying your bills anyway?
1 - Why were almost ALL the exit polls wrong?
Shutupshutupshutupshutupshutup.
This is just like when Atrios posts about Nader: you get all the people he's criticizing, and it turns out that calling them hysterical idiots doesn't make them calm or disapeered. But some people are listening amid all the capitalized WORDS.
Why were the early exit polls right?
Does anyone really think Olbermann opened up a shitstorm with that report? It was pretty compelling. I saw his Blog this afternoon and was stunned, but this was much further. Conyers totally avoided the really tough questions, probably with good reason, but it was annoying.
My thinking is that no one has thought it through to the point where we have a vote that is so in question, we either prove it was really Kerry, or can't prove WHO won... in which case... what? Ohio's electors are null? That still gives it to Bush. Constitutionally freaky stuff.
But really, is Olbermann on the line here?
kinda makes david koresh look like Mister Rogers, hermes
Out in the woods of new hampshire you find a ton of freaks who take "live free or die" rather seriously.
it's a misplaced red state with enough democrats to keep the place sane -- been there many times in the summer, and the "deliverance" overtones are raucous -- instead of canoes they have snow plows
You all are looking at irregularities that can't be proven or don't involve enough votes to make a difference in the election.
The 2004 Presidential election is not the point. The point...for me, anyway...is that if there are intentional irregularities, then there is something very wrong with the system. We need to know, because if there is something wrong with the system, it needs to be fixed.
Otherwise, kiss the USA as we learned about it in school good-bye.
If you take the ratios of party registrations to party votes of the E-touch machines and apply them to the opti-scan machines, which I spent 3 hours doing Sunday, the result is Kerry wins by 248,000 votes, giving him florida and the United States presidency.
Old Hat (or whoever is using the name), I think that you don't understand statistics. Correlation does not mean that exit polls were perfect. Suppose we have candidates x and y in some election, and in one area candidate x wins 70% of the vote whereas in the other area candidate y wins 90% of the wote. The actual figures would then be:
Area 1: x: 70% y: 30%
Area 2: x: 10% y: 90%
Suppose that the exit polls for the two areas showed:
Area 1: x: 90% y:10%
Area 2: x: 40% y:60%
These two sets of results can be used to show a correlation between the exit polls and the final results, yet the exit polls are biased towards candidate x.
Atrios accusing people of being "shrill."
How telling.
forget exit polls vs stuff that cant be verified, look at the opti-scans
unmanagetensions
Uncalled for.
Bug off with those kinds of comments,they are unnecessary and not very smart.
If you take the ratios of party registrations to party votes of the E-touch machines and apply them to the opti-scan machines, which I spent 3 hours doing Sunday, the result is Kerry wins by 248,000 votes, giving him florida and the United States presidency.
I'm not going to bother asking you what the hell you're talking about.
Also, people should keep in mind that even if whatever fraud is alleged wouldn't make a difference in the eventual outcome (i.e., Bush would still win), that hardly means that such fraud is not worth uncovering.
If it could be tied to Bush, it would be an impeachable offense, regardless of whether or not it changed the outcome.
Doubt it would ever be tied to Bush though; Rove knows all about plausible deniability.
While I agree with Old Hat that we lost fair and square, I don't see what the harm is in making a stink about the voting irregularities.
As has been said before, they didn't fix the problems after 2000.
Besides, with everybody on the Right feeling their oats right now, and many on the Left, for example Krugman, seeming to be taking off until January, perhaps a certain degree of serious mudslinging about election fraud sent Bush's way might set them back on their heels, at least slightly.
It isn't like they don't depict us as whiners, anyway. Force Rushbo, et.al. to play a little defense, instead of letting them play offense for the next 2 1/2 months.
I guess I'm still of the belief that if you throw enough shit, which the left most certainly DOES NOT do, some of it will stick. I learned that from the extraordinary success of the other side.
Nothing like some seeds of election fraud put into the minds of 56 million voters to shake things up...
The only way to beat these people is to both STAND FOR SOMETHING and FIGHT DIRTY.
forget exit polls vs stuff that cant be verified, look at the opti-scans
bill king
so, bill, without an armed insurrection, how do we exactly change things with your careful analysis???
at the risk of sounding shrill - and resisting the urge to wear some tin foil here - what is your organization's next step?? do you have demands?? are we gonna hold jenna and not jenna hostage until we get kerry in the whitehouse??
Just wondering ....
What about the fact that Rove was quoted as saying he had problems with the exit polls and afterwards the exit polls were then "repaired"
No link,as I wouldnt know where to find it,but IIRC it was a reporter that was with a national reputation.
Even if it can't be tied to Bush, it would sure be nice to see LaPore and Blackwell get what they deserve. Assuming, of course, that what I suspect proves to be true.
...even if whatever fraud is alleged wouldn't make a difference in the eventual outcome (i.e., Bush would still win), that hardly means that such fraud is not worth uncovering.
You got it.
We've got mid-terms in two years. Be nice to see what a more honest vote would look like, huh?
"I'm not going to bother asking you what the hell you're talking about."
so I won't bother telling you...
Google--> Thom Hartmann Evidence mounts
Atrios said:
There's enough that stinks that even if we don't have corruption (which we could), we have incompetence and technical flaws."
Imagine, if you will, the country of Fuquyistan, for the last 25 years this country has had a bad record of taking care of it's middle class and poorest citizens. Imagine, too, that a new dynasty has emerged, the elder member is politicaly defeated due to unsound economic policies and a scandle involving drugs and weapons involving an enemy state.
In time he is able to install 2 of his sons into the governership of two of the important provinces.
Subsequently one of the sons wins the election to the supreme post in a disputed election which hinges on the vote count in the provice that his brother controlls.
The issue is in doubt, but finally is decided by an ancient shaman, the friend and retainer of the father's mentor. The son uses many of his fathers old advisors who were implicated in the scandal that brought
him and his mentor down.
This son is not successful leader and has done much damage to the state, and indeed it's standing with old allies. unjust wars and a lack of defense in the homeland are laid at his feet. His economic policies favor the wealthy, his chief advisor is caught in many lies, and promotes his interests thru influence.
In the new elections the son wins a narrow victory, but he claims an absolute victory.
There are some questions as to the validity of the elections, one of the tribes has been forced to undergo very difficult procedures to vote, and there is evidence that many votes may not have been counted. The observers of this election have been strangly silent and there is reason to think that they are either intimidated or bribed.
My question is:
What part of Fuquyistan don't you understand?
we dont ned to 'change" anything, we need to sieze all the opti-scan machines, make a manual count and put Kerry in the White House were he belongs
I for one will not be working toward the midterms untill this thing is settled.One way or another.If there were no misdeeds,fine,lets fix the problem transparently and move on.If it turns out to get covered up,there is no use in even preparring for a fair midterm election.
Krugman said before the election,(paraphrase) "Why should we trust that Florida 2004 will be any different that 2000, when everytime we turn over a rock, things scurry away?" He was absolutely, spot on. As usual.
Here is my new pledge:
I will no longer sign a single petition for workers's rights. Fuck you morons that have me harassing Congress on your behalf for fair pay and worker safety.
Forget about my opposing the WalMarting of Amuricka.
You dimwits wanna keep electing morons that destroy your way of life and crapping up your rural landscape with Corp. farms? Have it YOUR WAY.
You are dead to me. Reap what you sow. As ee cummings would say:
And how do you like you're blue eyed boy, mister death.
I'm not going to bother asking you what the hell you're talking about.
If you don't know what he's talking about you need to shut the fuck up. We already have one election board in Ohio being investigated because an employee of an opti-scan company was tampering with the central computer that tallies these votes.
Why do I see so much defeatism? We let them walk all over us last time and unless we start being just as tough as they are, they're going to do it again - with jack boots. Why does anyone think that even if it can be proven that Bush did not win the election he should remain in office? At least start with a winning attitude or you'll continue to be a loser. I don't know about you, but I'm not looking forward to WW3 and even if it involves potential embarrassment, I think we should try to get this warmonger removed.
I agree about all the stolen elction stories. Even my wife, bless her broken heart, feels the same way.
But, the fact is that nationwide the margin was 3 million votes. When the absolute final tally is in I suspect it may be a tad closer but all in all fraud can't account for 3 million votes nationwide. Nor do I believe that the 136,000 in Ohio can be found in fraud.
Actual vote fraud was, after all, not really an issue in Florida in 2000. Suppressing the vote: Yes. Suppressing the count: Yes. Fraudulent votes cast: Probably NO.
To be realistic real vote fraud as in casting extra bogus ballots, throwing away ballots, substituting real ballot boxes with prepared ballot boxes is only effective in smaller elections.
The enduring legends about dead people voting, etc. have been in some cases true, but, in a large scale election, not significant.
The 1960 election story we're all familiar with is a case in point. Doubtless some precincts in Chicago may have contained some extra votes courtesy of the Chicago mob. The Illinois election commission, Republican controlled, rapidly certified the election results. Reason: The GOP was doing the same thing in southern Illinois. Basically a wash. Since only the Chicago story was rumored then why not let the legend live and prevent an investigation from uncovering GOP fraud downstate. The result would have been the same.
Kei & Yuri,
BTW--I have enjoyed your postings, particularly in the immediate aftermath of the great theft on 11/2.
But to my point--I'm not talking at all about faith, but simple common sense and trusting what you know to be true and what you've experienced vs what is being fed to us. As I said, it's true there's no conclusive proof at this time the election was stolen. But I gotta tell ya, I've been involved professionally in elections for over 20 years and this stinks worse than anything I've ever seen--including 2000. Folks, the exit polls were NOT wrong! They're never that far off. Never! It's simply a matter of time before the truth comes out. The enemy has naturally tried to leave as few fingerprints as possible, but some will be found and that will lead to more discoveries. The sad fact is, as has been stated above, it will not change this election in any event. Yet, when the truth comes out it will certainly have a major impact. Fundamentally, all of us who are interested in the survival of democracy in our country have to come to terms with the fact that the folks on the other side are not just opponents, but they are criminals. I don't mean everyone who voted Republican. I'm referring to the gang that is running the show for W. They are the biggest threat to the survival of the USA as we have known it in the entire history of the repubilc. Who could doubt that those who would steal the election in 2000, launch an illegal war of aggression, and institute torture as an official practice of the US military would let a little thing like an election get in their way?
Oh, by the way, it is pronounced
{fuk kew'istan}
If you don't know what he's talking about you need to shut the fuck up. We already have one election board in Ohio being investigated because an employee of an opti-scan company was tampering with the central computer that tallies these votes.
That's great. I have a pet unicorn.
Evidence?
I'm happy he has addressed this, my 2 cents worth is that cover ups are just that - cover ups.
Smoking gun?...ppl are arrested on circumstantial evidence and suspision of ___ all the time!
Come on, don't put a wet blanket on this, please.
This is being investigated, both by newspapers in the affected areas, and by Olbermann. He's been covering anomalies since last week.
A GAO investigation has been requested by 6 members of Congress.
In addition, one House candidate in Florida presented evidence to the FBI over the weekend.
It takes time just to collect and collate the evidence necessary to even open up an investigation.
Unbunch your panties, people. Yes, this needs to be investigated, because when 40% of the populace doesn't trust the process, we have a problem. But there's no concrete evidence that Kerry won at this point.
I'm tellin you all...
The Florida opti-scans hold the key.
Kerry wins by 248,000 votes.
Doesn't even need to be fraud, could be a design error, doesn't matter Kerry would win just the same.
Cal,
I wouldn't be so sure. We've moved into an entirely new era in terms of how many votes can be manipulated and thus have entered into an entirely new era in terms of how effective rigging the vote can be.
and, yeah, it looks like we've picked up all of those KOS trolls now--which, as well know, indicates there is something *someone* wants to have dismissed or sunk.
ever think that maybe the whole Punking of Rather was in prep for THIS?
do NOT fall for the scam. we need to have confidence in our systems. period. elsewise, what's the point? in any case, the vote was closer than even the most adamant Kerry voter would want to accept, you know? and MY personal feeling (worth about one quatloo, i know,) is that any "hacking" was not enough to win it for Bush--THAT IS NOT THE POINT.
it should be looked into, it should be addressed.
you know what i think really sunk us? the scams & the intimidation of our voters in urban & college campus polls. that is something that will NEVER overturn last Tuesday's results, but it IS something we can try to fix before 2006.
meanwhile, we HAVE to make sure the systems are secure!
i'm still supporting the Bev Harris initiative--we NEED to know for certain that the systems are not open to hacking. who the hell on ANY side could think that's a bad idea?
we very most probably still did lose, all around, but THAT is not the point!
we need back-ups, we need acccountability, or else what is the fucking point of voting?
and Old Hat--be you "you" or be you a "troll" persona using the real "you", why don't you want to know? what if am accounting gives Bush an even BIGGER "mandate"? i'm still for the full accounting, and for a secure system with a good way to double-check it (when things are close, and so long as we stick with the electoral college system, it's HUGELY important! for ALL OF US!)
were we bullied/scammed? sure. but that is something we can overcome honestly--we did so here in Pittsburgh, and in 2006 we can concentrate on doing that everywhere.
was there hacking or fraud? we don't know. i WANT to know, don't you? i WANT to know, even if it means Kerry LOSES votes!
don't be fooled or led into distraction.
and even at my utmost frantic, that has always been my MAIN point.
anyone who is against knowing the truth...well, you gotta' wonder why that might be, huh?
(and again, i'm seeing more and more why Atrios took a weekend for personal sanity! and to regroup.)
-L.
you want evidence, do what I did go to
http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
and convert the percentages to numbers Liberty county, for example had 321 registered republicans out of 4075 registered voters, yet Bush got 1927 votes and Kerry got 1070?
do the math on ALL the opti-scan counties
Well, as I said before it's not any harder to alter a lot of votes than to alter one vote, once one is in the system that is being used to add up the votes in a state. For example, suppose that I hacked into a state like Massachusetts which Kerry won handily. Maybe Kerry won by, say, 80%. If I reassign ten percent of these to Bush, Kerry will still win, but Bush gets an extra lump of votes which go towards his popular vote. At the same time, Kerry loses the exact same number of votes. Nobody would probably contest an election like this. NOte that the difference between Kerry and Bush votes would now be affected by 20%, not just 10%.
WARNING: I'm not saying that any of this happened, only that one should keep an open mind about what the extra three million popular votes would mean if the vote in fact was fraudulent. Reassigning votes like this could easily add up to quite a lot. And any fraud that would be serious would be done on the state level or at least relatively high up, so the number figures in themselves are not relevant.
Once again, I'm not saying that this happened, just pointing out the mechanics.
you want evidence, do what I did go to
http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
and convert the percentages to numbers Liberty county, for example had 321 registered republicans out of 4075 registered voters, yet Bush got 1927 votes and Kerry got 1070?
do the math on ALL the opti-scan counties
There's no doubt that discrepencies between the exit polls and the reported results coming out of the voting booths *are* odd and disconcerting; we know about lost ballots and negative votes being spit out by EVMs, etc. I too saw Bev Harris of www.blackboxvoting.org demonstrate for Howard Dean on television just how easy it is to hack voting tabulations. I'm sure there are a number of other nefarious aspects to how votes were or weren't counted. I have no doubt that the bad guys have no problem cheating if they think they can get away with it.
But political realities make this a matter not just of if cheating took place but whether or not such cheating played a significant role in determining the outcome of the election. This is how I read what atrios is arguing (at least in part), and I agree.
Anybody who's considering making a public claim that the election was stolen has to set the bar very high in terms of burden of proof. Without a boatload of very convincing evidence there's a damn good chance such a claim would backfire and actually damage future credibility with regard to both subject and source.
Being new to blogdom, I'm not sure if it's kosher to repost something, but part of what I wrote yesterday on the comments link for: "Stickin" (ie where does Kerry go from here) pertains even more to this issue, so here goes...
I think that realistically Kerry had very little room to offically and publically contest the election based on the stories emerging on Tuesday Night/Wednesday AM. For obvious reasons he simply would not be the best placed person to be leveling charges of voter fraud and corruption on the ground in Ohio, Florida etc.
...As we all know, the election isn't official until the electoral college meets, and if the story were to catch fire, Kerry would still be in a position to "un-concede" simply by calling a news conference to say something like: "My fellow Americans, we've all heard an increasing number of reports these past few days and weeks describing very disturbing and unfortunately very real evidence that not only calls into question the reported results of November 2nd, but which threatens to undermine our country's entire democratic process. Therefore, after much deliberation and with deep concern I'm announcing this afternoon..." etc. etc.
At that point it's not even necessarily about who "wins" the election, (in fact, given the political realities in the HR, Senate, and SCOTUS, it's virtually impossible to imagine any legal/Constitutional scenario in which the result would ultimately be overturned) but about making the most compelling possible case for calling into question the legitimacy of a corrupted election. In other words, shining a light into a dark corner where most people aren't gonna want to look.
To do that without getting totally crucified by the SCLM, you'd damn well better get your ducks in a row, get some very convincing facts ready to lay on the table
to those who want the saner among us to shut the fuck up, please take your paranoid ramblings someplace else .. i hear the x-files is looking for new scripts
saying that the vote was tampered and claiming a kerry presidency are two very different things
if you have proof - and not just suspicions and independently shaped analysis - call the FBI and maybe they'll give a shit. In the mean time, i say let the evidence mount and if there is something to be learned, then go at your congressmen (oops, more rethugs who won't give a shit) and demand quick action to restore the defacto commander-in-chief ... are you prepared for a real revolution to get what you want? how high you want to go with this? these guys are latched to power and I would probably become voter activists so that you, 1> don't go to jail, and 2> can sleep at night.
unless the evidence mounts - and i hear there are two major law firms looking into this mess with affadavits being collected - what else are you going to do?
you want evidence, do what I did go to
http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
and convert the percentages to numbers Liberty county, for example had 321 registered republicans out of 4075 registered voters, yet Bush got 1927 votes and Kerry got 1070?
do the math on ALL the opti-scan counties
you want evidence, do what I did go to
http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
and convert the percentages to numbers Liberty county, for example had 321 registered republicans out of 4075 registered voters, yet Bush got 1927 votes and Kerry got 1070?
do the math on ALL the opti-scan counties
what else are you going to do?
Who cares, there is nothing else to do but walk in the wilderness for 4 years.
This place has turned into a den of complacency overnight. What a waste.
Bill King, there is the Dixiecrat theory to explain those Florida findings. The same precincts voted for Bush in the past elections, and they voted against Clinton in 1996. It seems that most of them are in the Panhandle area and that is a very fundamentalist area.
"unless the evidence mounts - and i hear there are two major law firms looking into this mess with affadavits being collected - what else are you going to do?"
I"m going to make as many people as possible aware like I'm doing right now
Old Hat = Fed?
Just kidding. hehe haha lol
But she/he seems to show up to be the voice of ridicule when there is a thread even threating to debate "conspiracy theories"
But I know ppl like him/her...hate even the wiff of one cause they got burned over the millenium/year 00 thing or some such let down.
or he/she may just love the truth when it is unquestionable.
just sayin
Well Said, Atrios,
We are. after all, supposed to be "reality based" around here. Accusations of fraud are not to be made until there is an irrefutable case for it. Otherwise, they just make us look like sore losers and loonies. There is nothing wrong with patiently building that case, as Palast did in 2000, but it is critical that we not get ahead of ourselves. NOBODY should dismiss the basic integrity our democratic intitutions lightly. Down that road lies madness.
I will allow Atrios to be a conservative librul. He's an economist for goods-sakes. Most of us love him and respect his insistence on professional integrity.
I hollared and screamed a while back about Haiti and not one of you would listen.
You all had other priorities.
Things are happening and as far as I can see from inside my black box camera with the teeny little hole, Bev Harris is one very important pathway to the truth.
K and Y are totally respected by me as well as the big A so if you are all who you claim to be, I want to say it is OK to argue now, but don't let us be divided on this.
I frankly feel some of us have been overworked to the max and need looonger vacations. You know who you are so go for it if you can. At least have some fun.
In all fairness,
I dont't read long posts.
Nobody does. Make it short or shut up. Sorry for being (((shrill))), Be concise or give it up.
"Bill King, there is the Dixiecrat theory to explain those Florida findings. The same precincts voted for Bush in the past elections, and they voted against Clinton in 1996. It seems that most of them are in the Panhandle area and that is a very fundamentalist area."
I'll buy that, if a manual count backs it up
But I know ppl like him/her...hate even the wiff of one cause they got burned over the millenium/year 00 thing or some such let down.
or he/she may just love the truth when it is unquestionable.
Mmmkay.
Does Old Hat sound like Don Rumsfeld?
Of course.
And why shouldn't there be some news targetted toward the other 50% of America? Or at least the smaller portion of these who are political junkies? Some of the blog energy should be translatable into at least cable news ratings.
Is "Old Hat" really a "we?" Really sounds more like Karl Rove's agent.
.
bill king -
Thanks for the link.
but what about the E-touch counties are they all down south?
bigvic | Email | Homepage | 11.09.04 - 1:59 am | #
Gosh, wouldn't want to keep the local loons from posting their mental diarrhea. Please discontinue your heresy immediately, sir.
Google--> Thom Hartmann Evidence mounts
What, again?
your welcome pixie
Atrios,
The fact of the matter is this. We should be demanding to be given access to the internal workings of these Diebold machines.
Casinos in Vegas have to have every one of their slot machines inspected routinely. This is to prevent fraud.
We should demand that all of the software that runs these machines be made open source to inspectors.
Jesus Christ, everyone has heard this about one billion times at this point. Give it a rest.Please.
We lost. Too bad.
We finally get a thread to vent and collect info (pro and con) and not be OFF TOPIC yet this poster yells that??
The biggest conspiracy theory is that W is president.
your welcome pixie
your welcome pixie
crud every time i refresh it reposts me sorry
The GOP machine made it obvious that they would contest the Kerry election on every level. They showed the world they would intimidate and challenge the legal vote of every Kerry/Dem voter.
What thinking person wouldn't wonder that this *election* wasn't rigged?
and for whoever did ask upthread--no, "consession" speeches mean absolutely nothing, Constitutionally. it's all about when the states show up to turn in their official, certified accounts. in fact, in many states, the "electors" are actually free to vote AGAINST what their state's majority vote was for President .
has never happened in a long long time--but it IS legal to do so.
that is what the early part of the Moore film on 9/11 was all about--the Reps from FLa contesting the state's electors.
and as for what Moore is doing--go to boingboing to get the link, he was filming voter intimidation in urban (read "black") precincts polls.
THAT is incontestable--Jim Crow is alive and well, all over! and not a goddamn new thing about it.
and if Olbermann is "pimping" us for ratings--i don't care. at least he is saying something, and YES, i truly believe that boy's ass is on the line for doing this (watch his face! he knows it, too!)
all the news people "pimp" the public for ratings--that is how they stay on the air in today's profit-driven markets.
-L.
We cannot "give it a rest"
old hat
it means too much.... and gaining some seats in the next election...
we need to fix this broken system first!
we have incompetence and technical flaws.
Atrios
yep that clinches it...I won't be missed, i know..off to shop and sleep then I will look for other insightfull ppl to chat with..this place was great, I learned a lot.
Truly, many thanks Atrios.
The tone here is very strange. If Atrios were to lay out to a stranger what he documents everyday at mediamatters they would think he was a loon.
crud every time i refresh it reposts me sorry
bigvic wrote:
What thinking person wouldn't wonder that this *election* wasn't rigged?"
HEY, none of that kinda talk! Move along folks, nuttin to see here, go on, mind the stinking dead elephant there, just tiptoe around it, that's the way.
What is wrong with optical scan ballots? Used one here in Hawaii to help us stay blue. It was easy, quick and provides a paper trail. Why not push these as the standard, and have TV ads say, 3 months before any election, showing how to fill one out? After a few elections, voting would be as easy as remembering your Drivers license number, or that red = stop, yellow = caution and green = go, or some other simple comparison. Maybe others can think of ways to simplify and standardize registration, polling places, absentee and early balloting.
DK2
I noticed in the Keith Olberman piece Kerry got 1818 votes in one of the precincts.In 2002 3 republicans won local offices each with 18181 votes and was dismissed as a mere curiosity.
BBV has the right idea, file FOIAs all over, get the evidence and put the case together. We should keep it up talking about this issue. Imagine if Dems had committed vote fraud, Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly et al would be hammering us, it would be a broad-based coordinated strategy, talking points from Grover Norquist. My mother is 86 years old, watching the election aftermath in the hospital, she said this was how the Nazis got started, rigging elections, muzzling the media. And she's a little old lady. Speak up for fair elections, the founders fought and died for the right to vote. The U.S. is becoming everything we rebelled against in 1776.
Froot Loop - Still upset that no one wants to visit your Joe Eschaton blog?
so, back to the "hair on fire" mode--spread the word that there are "questions" about malfunction and security, maybe write some some sane & polite letters to Rep & Sens asking for help, to your papers & local tv news (especially if you are in OH & FLA,) and give $5 to Bev Harris--what can it hurt?
and again, support the only guy on cable who is even touching this--Olbermann (before they fire his ass.)
-L.
(and once the trolls & suspected trolls go away, i have a really great site to share with people, no matter if your hair is on fire, or not even singed...if you haven't seen it yet, it'll make you laugh, make you cry, give you strength, and maybe some inspiration...)
If I ever fucking hear of another of another *moral* voter, I will puke.
All the Moral Christians I know, personally, are such damaged individuals. They include moms who dumped their kids, divorced their husbands, lived with their *lover* And passed judgement on others for their choices. (Think "gay")
My aunt represents this attitude. She dumped her husband and kids and *FOUND JESUS*
Her kids are good, but screwed up individuals. God save them.
One thing is certain, it's easier to prove what's going on with a definitive paper trail. We should all prove for the prohibition of digital voting machines and mechanically driven voting machines. Here in Washington state are ballots were simple, draw a line between the box next to your choice and the box on the other side of the paper. It's chad-less and hard to fake.
If nothing else, electronic voting machines that are connected in any way on-line are our enemy.
That psot was far too long bigvic. I stopped reading it by line 3. Shorten it up, son.
Old Hat would like us all to know that Hugo Chavez, elected by a large majority of his nation's population, in an election that was judged as reliable by international observers, is a dictator. With convoluted logic such as this, we should trust any of the rest of your analysis precisely why? I think I'll get my facts and analysis from more reliable sources, but thanks for sticking your foot in your mouth anyway Old Hat. You might try getting out and travelling and you'll find that things in many countries are not what is being reported here in the US. You are sadly misinformed. Try reading something other than a Republican propaganda site.
How do I know Bush stole the election?Because when a known car thief shows up with a new bmw with the ignition ripped out,I get a serious case of certainty.
bigvic- Just kidding. I post long, so i take it personally when someone says they don't read long posts.
Thoughts:
I really think there is a basis to our fraud concerns. But the SCLM has to be the ones to jump on it, or it will be framed in terms that will do nothing but damage us in the national perception when we're already down.
So, I salute Mr. Olbermann. He has gotten more "straight" over the last couple of months- I can't imagine him reporting on this before now.
Also, none of us *know* anything to a point we can prove a damn thing. We must hope the GAO/various DAs/actual journos will account for the abnormalities we all know of. But this is not going to deliver us a Kerry victory. Best case- it can only provide some heavy ammo that we must use wisely to try and fix voting accountability and system problems. Sorry.
It's interesting that kos and Atrios, the left blogosphere's two heaviest hitters, had an almost identical reaction to the swirling cries of fraud -- to avoid taking it on directly at first (even as it popped up repeatedly in the kos recommended diaries). Then, when commenting on it, an identical take: it could very well be true and should definitely be investigated (their detractors ignoring this first part), but that it serves no good to scream "fraud" until/if strong evidence emerges. Are we witnessing a maturing of the progressive blogosphere? (Not at all implying that it was "immature," just that their joint reaction was measured, thoughtful and, well, almost establishment like.)
-- Stu
Thank God DU and other blogs are actually gathering (and providing links to) the assorted snowballing evidence of vote fraud--rather than playing "Peterson Defense*" like I'm seeing here:
"You didn't actually witness voter fraud with your own eyes, so there's reasonable doubt that it might have been multiple unintentional manfunctions and other innocent explanations, up to and including alien invasion."
"Wha...alien invasion?!?"
"Who said alien invasion? I never said alien invasion. You're crazy. You've been watching too many episodes of 'X-Files.' Alien invasion, indeed. Where did you come up with that? See, everyone? Crazy."
I prefer the fire at Kos' site. This "proof of nothing" attitude is a kind of capitulation.
I agree that we have no proof that Kerry actually won the election. But it now appears that the election was most likely *A LOT* closer than was earlier asserted. And it's at least *POSSIBLE* Kerry actually won. And given that we are discussing a rigged election, he probably did win because if he didn't there would be no need to rig the election. Somebody could have gone in and just used the real numbers instead of fake ones - thereby giving us proof of nothing. The machines are not hard to hack.
So yeah, that's a pretty calm attitude for a guy that aspires to lead. I mean, what is the purpose of this site?
And it's not as if the future of our republic didn't depend on the veracity of our election process.
Atrios is dropping the ball on this one. He has the ability to rally people around this cause, even if he wants to play the voice of reason about it. But where's the fire even so?
Why not just go to sleep for the next four years Duncan? Boobies keeping you awake?
Good point and you deserved a break with no reason given. Criminy, you're one person with some volunteer help doing more honest reporting than the NYTimes and WaPo put together.
I haven't received any answers yet, but am wondering if employees at the various e-voting machine manufacturers have been required to sign any over restrictive Non-Disclosure Agreements over the past four years. We'll see if anyone wants to speak on this matter. Unless of course, this matter itself is covered by the NDA's.
Then I'll have to apply for a job at one of the facilities. Ughhh...
"Evidence" is a slippery word, bingo. At least it is in politics, when the monolithic corporate media plays gatekeeper of the facts and how they're presented. Feel free to get your "facts" from DU links, but don't call them evidence unless you gots a smoking gun.
I am confident that plenty of competent people are gathering info. But tinfoil makes lousy headwear- I would hate to wear it without a damn good reason.
What a shame that our own President Bush, the Noblest and Godliest man to hold that High Office in this century, in the hour of his greatest victory, is unable to prove that he won fair and square.
We owe it to President Bush to demonstrate the integrity of the voting process in order to clear his good name of the growing rumors surrounding this election. How can the man govern if half the country believes these terrible lies?
Support President Bush! Demand a recount!
Dear Atrios,
RE: The Election Was Stolen
They got away with 2000 and now are trying to get away with 2004.
Your lack of support in what is perhaps the most critical issue of the day has caused me to come to the conclusion to put it as plainly as possible - that you are not on the side of the common man anymore. Not sure what happened to you. But an unchecked ego has a small part in it I’m afraid. 1000000000 hits a day may do that to some people (and “Buy Me Presents - Amazon Wish List”????) .
Sorry but you have lost one reader at least until you come back to our side and help raise the questions that may lead to that smoking gun you spoke of. Don’t think it’s only you….Kos (he doesn’t have email any more, only a form for us peasants! So popular!) has lost me too. And to think some folks here at Eschaton are begining to slagg off Greg Palast! Greg Palast for Pete’s sake! Just following Atrios’ lead I guess.
Take care Dunc'
Gunnfan
PS. I urge all readers who need a place to go to that has always been a true democratic [sic] bastion and still is >> DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND.COM
Dear Atrios,
RE: The Election Was Stolen
They got away with 2000 and now are trying to get away with 2004.
Your lack of support in what is perhaps the most critical issue of the day has caused me to come to the conclusion to put it as plainly as possible - that you are not on the side of the common man anymore. Not sure what happened to you. But an unchecked ego has a small part in it I’m afraid. 1000000000 hits a day may do that to some people (and “Buy Me Presents - Amazon Wish List”????) .
Sorry but you have lost one reader at least until you come back to our side and help raise the questions that may lead to that smoking gun you spoke of. Don’t think it’s only you….Kos (he doesn’t have email any more, only a form for us peasants! So popular!) has lost me too. And to think some folks here at Eschaton are begining to slagg off Greg Palast! Greg Palast for Pete’s sake! Just following Atrios’ lead I guess.
Take care Dunc'
Gunnfan
PS. I urge all readers who need a place to go to that has always been a true democratic [sic] bastion and still is >> DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND.COM
Atrios,
Olbermann's blog does raise some facts that seem (on the surface, at least) indisputable. I'd love to hear someone debunk them specifically.
The people who are getting this misinformation aren't stupid, even if they're jumping the gun. Without anyone in the mainstream media or blogosphere addressing the specifics, it's hard to know where the truth lies.
Olbermann claims that the official Ohio county tallies include 18,472 votes cast in Fairview Park (a precinct in Cuyahoga County), where only 13,342 voters are registered.
I suppose that one can assume this isn't fraud, since actual fraud wouldn't be so blatant (why add more votes when you can just change the ones you already have?). But it does raise questions about serious errors taking place. The only documented and corrected error we've seen so far is the 4,000 extra Bush votes in Ohio. But it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to think there might be others.
Whether fraud or negligence is to blame, the mainstream meda isn't picking up this story--an important one. That leaves... the blogs! And if it the miscounted votes could (and this is extremely unlikely) change the outcome of the election, well, I'd expect some serious Florida-style voter fraud at that point.
Most of this is just denial about the election, yes, but there are important questions that you could help answer, while at the same time warding off the jump to extreme conclusions.
Thanks.
I guess everyone reasonable has gone to bed.
For fuck's sake, what would you have Atrios do, Gunnfan? If you people think the election was stolen, great. I was thinking it would happen going in. I also know enough about WinCE/MS Access and MS client/server security to know that the electronic machines using these technologies are vulnerable at best. But what do you want Atrios/Kos to do about it? This is a bigger story to examine than one guy with a blog can do. He just said that there's plenty of reason to be suspicious, and I'm sure if something compelling came along our man would be on it. Do you know something Atrios should be shouting about? If so, post a link, bitch. I want to see it too.
What is really needed here is to have the media take an honest look at vote suppression and how we wound up with 200,000 provisional ballots in Ohio alone.
If kvetching about fraud gets the media to force the government to require a receipt checked by the voter, so be it. The important thing is that people are on this in the larger sense of making sure that everyone legally entitled to vote can and that every vote is counted.
And please, don't feed the trolls.
Old Hat,
Isn't Kevin Drum a blogger? Sorry, that is not a credible source. Anyways, I couldn't find any such debunking of the election fraud on his site. Are you sure you've got your facts straight? Why should I give you any more credibility than say... a classified ad?
Greg Palast is an award winning journalist that works for the BBC news. I read his book, and his passion for the minutiae of detail in how he broke the now infamous Florida scandal has impressed me enough to accept as fact.
Plus, most damning of all, it makes sense to me.
That can often be a great way of determining truth, particularly in a sea of proganda, lies, deceit, spin-doctors, and evil manipulations.
I am willing to look at any sources that will debunk Mr. Palast, but I am skeptical of these Swift boat type efforts that right so willingly employs. Truth is difficult to salvage from politics.
"I agree. Tinfoil is best worn by right-wingers.
Anonymous"
Tinfoil? Tinfoil? What part of waiting 12 hours in line to vote, until 3 AM, strikes you as tinfoil?
Diebold stole the election for Gov. Vote-Fraud of Austria in 03 in California, in case you weren't noticing. 17 counties voted on illegally-installed (and removed) hot loads from Diebold. The software had NO state testing or certification (the three largest counties, including Los Angeles and Oakland-Berkeley, no federal testing or certification either).
The beauty part: The companies that test and certify are THEMSELVES Bush-partisan companies.
They couldn't steal 2004 too...we need proof? It's prima facie proof. They have already stolen one major election in the country AT LEAST (clearly, they have stolen four in a row).
To ignore the demonstrated is to run as yellow-backed to the media hype as any coward. It's fairly revolting to get downed by an American who ignores Bush's treason in order to bash people demanding their voting rights.
Whom the fuck is the troll?
The one who wants us to 'get over it.'
Fallujah...get over it. Now, what were we saying about faggots and christianity?
--
Dear Atrios,
RE: The Election Was Stolen
They got away with 2000 and now are trying to get away with 2004.
Your lack of support in what is perhaps the most critical issue of the day has caused me to come to the conclusion to put it as plainly as possible - that you are not on the side of the common man anymore.
In order to win this fight, we need proof, solid proof, and we should not be so quick to jump on our fellow man for not immediately jumping in the same bandwagon as everyone else. Isn't that what dominionist brownshirts do? Let us not emulate them, but find a way to legally immolate them.
(sorry, a little more emphatic than I intended.>)
"In order to win this fight, we need proof, solid proof"
Cart before the horse. Based on past stolen elections, and for sure California was stolen, there is prima facie case for suspecting that Diebold shifted millions of votes BY THE SAME METHODS USED IN CALIFORNIA.
That the people on this blog are so uninformed to not understand that we are in the middle of an illegal coup abetted by outright massive vote fraud is HILARIOUS.
Howard Dean, on tv, was shown by Bev Harris how a simple Windows PC could swap votes and change an election.
The exit polls don't seem to work any more. Somehow this ONLY CHECK ON BALLOTLESS PARTISAN-HELD ELECTIONS is too complicated for people who can land orbiters on Mars.
They show a clear landslide victory for Kerry and then two hours later they suddenly flip over.
I guess Jeebus came back, and them damn GAYS caused another 911, eh, Pat?
It's a treasonous strategy based on racism and cynicism. In 2000 they outright said that the poor (THE BLACKS) were too stupid to vote. And this year, it's the cynicism of Mencken, in spite of the largest voter turnout in forty years, with two wars and hundreds of thousands dead. You cynics don't control the discussion like you think; actually, you are denser fools than you should be credited.
--
Atrios,
Thank you for finally weighing in on the topic. I knew I was right that this was why you took a break (not that you don't deserve one).
There is ironclad proof of voter suppression...which is related to fraud...but you're right to tell people to slow down.
I was guilty of being hysterical myself immediately after the election...but now I want all the votes counted for the sake of future elections. There is no way we would be able to unseat Bush even if it is proven that Kerry won.
But...as one of the most important parts of our blogosphere (and I have heaped a ton of praise unto you here, there, and on my site)...I really did think you owed it to us to at least consider the subject.
We need to get to work to fix this messed up system...And we can't save it for later....like we did four years ago...and we can't count on the Democrat Party to do it (since they have a lot to lose). This f-ed up electoral system is the protectorate of the two party system. I'm a Democrat. But I'm one pissed off Democrat.
Fraud or no fraud...it's wrong to call an election before all the votes have been counted.
But you're 110% right (a diebold 110%)! "the integrity of our democracy is seriously at stake." Now offer up some ideas on how we can get everyone that is working on this to change the focus from "win this for Kerry" to "win this so that future elections will reflect the will of the people."
Peace
Why Are We Back In Iraq?
Atrios,
Thank you for finally weighing in on the topic. I knew I was right that this was why you took a break (not that you don't deserve one).
There is ironclad proof of voter suppression...which is related to fraud...but you're right to tell people to slow down.
I was guilty of being hysterical myself immediately after the election...but now I want all the votes counted for the sake of future elections. There is no way we would be able to unseat Bush even if it is proven that Kerry won.
But...as one of the most important parts of our blogosphere (and I have heaped a ton of praise unto you here, there, and on my site)...I really did think you owed it to us to at least consider the subject.
We need to get to work to fix this messed up system...And we can't save it for later....like we did four years ago...and we can't count on the Democrat Party to do it (since they have a lot to lose). This f-ed up electoral system is the protectorate of the two party system. I'm a Democrat. But I'm one pissed off Democrat.
Fraud or no fraud...it's wrong to call an election before all the votes have been counted.
But you're 110% right (a diebold 110%)! "the integrity of our democracy is seriously at stake." Now offer up some ideas on how we can get everyone that is working on this to change the focus from "win this for Kerry" to "win this so that future elections will reflect the will of the people."
Peace
Why Are We Back In Iraq?
Atrios,
Thank you for finally weighing in on the topic. I knew I was right that this was why you took a break (not that you don't deserve one).
There is ironclad proof of voter suppression...which is related to fraud...but you're right to tell people to slow down.
I was guilty of being hysterical myself immediately after the election...but now I want all the votes counted for the sake of future elections. There is no way we would be able to unseat Bush even if it is proven that Kerry won.
But...as one of the most important parts of our blogosphere (and I have heaped a ton of praise unto you here, there, and on my site)...I really did think you owed it to us to at least consider the subject.
We need to get to work to fix this messed up system...And we can't save it for later....like we did four years ago...and we can't count on the Democrat Party to do it (since they have a lot to lose). This f-ed up electoral system is the protectorate of the two party system. I'm a Democrat. But I'm one pissed off Democrat.
Fraud or no fraud...it's wrong to call an election before all the votes have been counted.
But you're 110% right (a diebold 110%)! "the integrity of our democracy is seriously at stake." Now offer up some ideas on how we can get everyone that is working on this to change the focus from "win this for Kerry" to "win this so that future elections will reflect the will of the people."
Peace
Why Are We Back In Iraq?
Mandate vs. Date
I've been following the election numbers reported by CNN and CSPAN as returns are compiled and amended over the last week. Kerry is slowly but consistently gaining ground. The results can be seen at http://66.92.36.134:7744/mandate-vs-date.gif
:
and http://66.92.36.134:7744/mandate-vs-count.gif
t0msilav--i am (by some estimations,) reasonable, and i have, alas, not gone to bed.
yup, i think we at least "know" something.
do we know who did it? no.
do we have proof, ourselves (or Atrios) in hand? no.
do we "know" that said proof would overturn the election? nope again.
does that mean we are not going after this proof? of COURSE we are.
there are just some spin issues and framing to be aware of, is all--if we fuck that up, it will turn into another "Rather-gate" (where there is proof positive of something, but that proof is negated by "fake" proof or by shouts of treason and theft. kerning, anyone?)
Atrios (and maybe Kerry/Edwards, too,) are being smart and laying low as far as the public--we have a window to work within, too much shouting, and we'll never catch the devils, and then even if we do, no one will believe us.
i join you in the Reasonable Fact-Based Community.
(i KNOW it hurts you to keep quiet--if you KNOW something, or have SEEN it yourself, but we have to be smart about this--we're playing Chess here, not King of the Mountain.)
if one must shout now, they need to keep it in the frame of non-partisan shouting. that does not mean that citizens in the streets should not raise the question, it just needs to be carefully phrased!
-L.
"we should not be so quick to jump on our fellow man for not immediately jumping in the same bandwagon as everyone else. Isn't that what dominionist brownshirts do? OKJackson"
Oh, let us INQUIRE into our virtues, shall we? Would you like some more tea? Oooh, heeelllooo!
"In the future, we will act, and you will study our actions."
What troll rock did you crawl out of with your theory that listless Victorianism is how we are going to deal with treason? That's a right-wing image of the liberal Democrats, and it is FALSE.
We fight; John Kerry fought; and the election isn't over until December. The acts of treason have not been forgotten. The innocent dying have not been forgotten.
IT WILL NOT BE MEDIA-BUSINESS AS USUAL.
We won that election by a landslide, against the direct treason of SecStates in bed with Bush.
How many people were unable to cast a ballot!!!
You should be ashamed of the cowardliness that you are displaying.
--
"(i KNOW it hurts you to keep quiet--if you KNOW something, or have SEEN it yourself, but we have to be smart about this--we're playing Chess here, not King of the Mountain.)"
We are not PLAYING a game.
Suspect the GUILTY.
"Quiet" this.
--
You cynics - Paul
You completely misunderstand my position. In order to win this fight, we need a solid strategy that can't be defeated.
The first is to shift entirely back to paper ballots. The second is to keep investigating the fraud until it turns up undeniable proof, not suspicions, that the election was stolen.
Look at the incident with the fake National Guard papers, even though Bush was AWOL they spit out forged documents in an effort to make the whole argument look false. When we come forward with these accusations legally, the case needs to be solid, or we will step right into the kind of trap they want us in.
wow--i just noticed this comment from Old (or possibly Fake?) Hat:
"Was I saddened to see that Generation PlayStation chose to sit on its fat, collective ass and play DeathBots 3000 Ultra while chugging Big Gulps instead of voting? You bet. "
total BS, pal. i WATCHED my students struggle all day to cast votes, watched how many tried and were beaten. screw you for falling for that media spin. the kids came out, maybe they did not all manage to get a damn vote cast after the day-long run-round, but they f-ing showed up! i SAW them.
do NOT diss MY kids!
and if you EVEN try to level the same charge at the African American vote...
-L.
"There is no way we would be able to unseat Bush even if it is proven that Kerry won."
THAT DOES NOT MATTER.
This is the time when the blogsphere should be pumping the numbers of people who were disenfranchized. I have now heard of ten or fifteen people who sent in absentee ballots and never got them.
There is a fundamental difference in a landslide victory that is stolen, and we can't do anything directly about it because the fed is under one-party conspiracy;
and this bullshit that the rightwing suddenly sprouted wings and the pig is flying home to Jesus!
We dems are just not religious enough to suspect how many people are hateful enough to embrace the antichrist!
We don't just suspect, we KNOW. California's election was stolen. There is no doubt about that. They were caught in Alameda county stealing the election. But Kevin Shelley, CA SecState, is apparently a traitor with 3 zeroes more in his bank account.
We are a LANDSLIDE. Bush is going down, vote or no vote.
--
Gunnfan, please let the door hit you in the ass.
D.U., yeah, right. Try questioning a mod over there, let alone critizing one. A liberal version of Free Republic is not something to be proud of.
(Incidentally, the point of the "OT: [censored]" header is so people can skip the comment if they don't want to read it. It's the opposite of dishonest blogwhoring tricks like saying you're linking to one thing when you're actually directing people to your own site. We read back through threads and OT-labeled bits all the time).
This is just like when Atrios posts about Nader: you get all the people he's criticizing, and it turns out that calling them hysterical idiots doesn't make them calm or disapeered. But some people are listening amid all the capitalized WORDS.
You know, I was going to go into a prolonged diatribe about how the conspiracy theory bullshit was all misguided and how one should probably go to rense.com if one wanted to push the theory that Kerry was denied the presidancy through conspiracy.
I mean it's possible...
There might even be evidence it happened, but I ain't seen it.
But, whatever...
Anyway I've extensively quoted Kei and Yuri at the front of my post and you might be wondering why.
Well, KY, I am making a plea to you to be coherant.
I don't know what the fuck you're talking about half the time (btw; the conceit that you're two people...not helping).
Links are always apropos, but really this is more fundamental than that. You can't put a paragraph together to save your life.
I strongly disagree.
This isn't a game of chess. It's warfare - flat out. You want to take a knife to a gunfight.
I agree we can hold back on the "Kerry Won" part. No problem there. But to remain overly calm on the matter of voter fraud is outrageous.
If you will take it in the ass over this issue, is there any issue that would cause you to raise your voice?
C'mon!
"When we come forward with these accusations legally, the case needs to be solid, or we will step right into the kind of trap they want us in.--OKJackson"
You are too smart by half. The real effect of our LACK of focus on the stolen vote is that our landslide voters are being packaged as a narrow Bush win.
The idea that giving up that momentum is good for our cause is in fact, just more treason.
California, proven case. You tell me why no one wanted to take that more seriously around here, but were heading for riots, and I would prefer we fight for our own sanity instead.
You SAW the differences in the rallies. You saw the debates. The exit polls reported the truth, and they flipped the election. THOSE ARE THE FACTS.
They don't just do fake cassus belli; they do fake count your vote all day, as long as your outrage is to 'study' what they have done to you until you have 'proof.'
Just wait until you get mail for having voted as a New Republican!
--
You SAW the differences in the rallies. You saw the debates.
The exit polls reported the truth,
and then they flipped the election.
--
(dunno why Hs did that to the name)
KPlayer--nice catch. kinda proves the concensus here i think...
-L.
"The people who are getting this misinformation aren't stupid, even if they're jumping the gun."
Diebold has already been caught, but legal action AND the information was suppressed.
People in Los Angeles are probably 95% unaware that the Recall election in 2003 was a fraud.
How many Katherine Harris' are there REALLY?
In 2001, there was a near-nuclear disaster 40 miles west of Toledo. Bush backer company never punished, but more to the point, few in California ever heard it had happened. Same company did the East coast power outage, and never punished for that, either.
Enron and Reliant did California, and now we have an Enron stockholder who met with Ken Lay during the crisis, and who was being groomed by Rove for 2006, as new Governator, "elected" by the most fradulent election in modern California history.
The very same Bush partisan voting company steals 10 million votes from the various 1/3 of the country it 'services,' and atriosers turn into a butterfly society.
Go figure.
--
okay, my bad wording--this is, obviously, not a game, so much is at stake!
what i meant by that is that we have to be clever about this--by all means, spread the word that that there are doubts, spread the most credible reports far and wide (but don't rely on MSM or blogs for that--tell your neighbors, email your circle, leave copies on the bus, whatever! it's best if it rises up from the people! write to your local news, call the call-in shows--use the same GOTV tactics that got so many people out to vote.)
what has to happen here, is for there to be a significant regular old "people of America" cry for an investigation--and already, these things are being investigated, and at least we've got part of the story up to the level of Olbermann. it will go further, the Truth will Out.
but it can not come from the Kerry camp, and it can't just come from the Left Coast of Blogistan. or the nation will never accept that possible, though very unlikely, over turning of the election. this one is like trying to get your boss to suggest that you should have a raise, you know? if you demand it up front, you'll just get fired.
is something rotten? well, yeah, probably--is it provable? that remains to be seen. could it unseat Bush--no one knows, but that can't be the focus or no one will listen.
and the suppression/registration scam/intimidation/Urban Voter Ghetto is a whole other cart of apples--that one should be shouted to high holy heaven by all who witnessed it or were victims (but again, not exactly in a partisan way, just in the sense that it's Jim Crow all over again and fucking unfair.) but this one won't make any difference in the 2004 results, even with Moore's film, or whatever. it just has to be known, and fixed--but this one is also one we can beat in 2006 without legislation or any other help, just on the ground.
i'm not asking anyone to shut up, just be smart about what you say, and who you say it to.
the possible fraud, on the other hand, could indeed overturn the election--so that hand must be played as carefully as we can. we have until the official certification. too much hue and cry, and we'll have an army of Republican lawyers trying to stop it...
in any case, it ain't "war" until January--then all bets are off, either way.
-L.
You are too smart by half. The real effect of our LACK of focus on the stolen vote is that our landslide voters are being packaged as a narrow Bush win.
Your emotional level will betray you. In order to make the people and the courts listen, you have to look calm, casual and exude the confidence that tells people you have the facts on your side. The GAO is getting involved, more irregularities are surfacing. Heck, it's only been a week and the evidence is building. The constant pressure is being exerted by the more... shrill sounding blogs and watchdog groups. Consider them the little dogs. Remember, all of these little ties suggest wrong doing, but we have to prove it. So let people like Atrios hang on, don't bother the big dogs, they will bark when the time is right.
"but it can not come from the Kerry camp, and it can't just come from the Left Coast of Blogistan. or the nation will never accept that possible, though very unlikely, over turning of the election."
Overturning the election is the same problem as overturning the coup. Not so easy. But also MOOT.
In 1972 Nixon won a legal election by landslide, and was gone three months later, because he had ALREADY betrayed the country (and in much more significant ways than Watergate, but that was enough).
Bush and his Iraq invasion team have committed treason. The vote fraud is no great surprise. What is a surprise is yet again how much the Dems refuse to stand up for the poor souls who have no choice but to vote for them in landslide numbers.
"is something rotten? well, yeah, probably--is it provable? that remains to be seen. could it unseat Bush--no one knows, but that can't be the focus or no one will listen."
You're way off, worrying about selling it to America, Librarian. This is A LEGAL MATTER. Who gives a damn if America has a hard time swallowing that they were lied into war? Or any of the other lies.
Your approach reduces what I figure (from exit poll guesses) at a 65% win, to a 49% loss, reducing our 80 million voters by 30 million. What about their voices, uncounted (or counted in reverse of their intent)!
After four stolen elections, the assassination of a Senator, the invention of 6 more R Congressmen in Texas, and the suppression of facts by the mass media, supposedly we are in the minority!
We kicked Bush's ASS in the election, with F911, with the huge impact of an entire generation going to the polls in gigantic numbers, who had not voted before even though they could have.
Kerry's tactical retreat is troubling, but I respect his sacrifices for the nation, and will not condemn him for championing our cause, and winning a landslide victory-- denied by traitors (probably via threats) to the nation.
--
and i find it odd, these cries from both sides to either "shut up" entirely, or that i should run into the street and blame Atrios or Kerry...
anyone who advocates eating our own at this point, i have to wonder about the motive.
nothing is getting decided on this message board--if you want to go say or do whatever, go do and/or say it, you know? give a couple bucks to Bev Harris, send the other useful links around--and leave one here too. i have been.
but again, i am honestly also capable (tho broken-hearted) to accept in the end, after a clear accounting, that more of my fellow citizens are either fooled or bat-shit crazy than i realize(NOT that i am convinced of this, without said accounting, which must be demanded.) but being able to admit the possibility is not the same thing as giving up.
and i am still naive enough to want them to get a fair vote, just like me.
and um, by the way--anyone who thinks i am "overly calm" was clearly not around on Thursday night or Friday morning when i was practically calling for Revolution in the streets, fuck all of it, and planning the Big WhoVille Boycott of Christmas
i am plenty upset, trust me. and if it comes to sit-ins, what have you, in the end, i'm there.
-L.
"Your emotional level will betray you. In order to make the people and the courts listen, you have to look calm, casual and exude the confidence that tells people you have the facts on your side."
Politics, like a GQ ad. While people die, the appeasers parrot the media-dictated lines.
This is treason. It ain't a beauty contest.
Mealy-mouthed dems aren't getting the job done, even if they have nice haircuts and ascots.
--
"nothing is getting decided on this message board-"
With your very definite help.
Stealing votes is an act of war on democracy.
To expect people to be calm about the promulgation of PROPAGANDA by the people supposedly in the fight is infuriating.
We OUT the facts, ma'am. We don't need no stinking CNN spin.
--
well, Paul--what do you suggest?
(i would prefer to avoid a civil war here, if there is any legal and mostly popularly palatable way to unseat The Pretender? violence is always there, and so kind of the last resort, you know? not my first choice.)
-L.
3 million out of 220 mil. thats peanuts. this is not a done deal. i'm disappointed in you atrios
jeeze Paul--this is exactly what i was talking about! and who the F believes CNN anyway? nobody here. and who's gonna' do or not do something based on what i say? you give me way too much credit here.
we are on the same side (at least, i'm making that assumption, since my personal views make Karl Mark & Ghandi look like "centrists.") i've been an indy/green voter in most elections until recently.
we are on the edge of losing our whole nation to some kind of whack-job fascist cross-worshipping dominionists! and i have been raising this alarm for 3 years now, and MY friends, MY students, were bullied, scammed and harrassed at the polls on Tuesday...we were lucky to Beat the Cheat here with sheer numbers and dead-set determination. but when my students went marching the next day over the whole fuck-up, burned a flag in the middle of traffic, i totally supported them. that was about access, and there was no question about what happened in this city.
but THAT is not going to overturn this election--there's no legal basis, or way to prove it made a difference (unless you know some legal mojo that i do not.)
maybe i just don't get where you are coming from--and i'm telling you, i may well be one of the reasons that Atrios had to take a little hiatus over the weekend (after seeing what happened in my city i was ready to break shit and burn the whole fuckin' thing to the ground.)
and i am not saying that i won't end up back in that same state of mind come January--but with some proof of actual fraud, framed well and put out in a smart way, maybe we can over turn this debacle, legally, and in a way that the population can accept, in time.
if not, come then, well, you just tell me when and where, and i'll bring my own black bandana, okay?
no, this election is not a "done deal", but we need to make sure we don't get punk'd again in the process of bringing it out.
you want to vent some anger--go scream at CNN, ABC. etc.--they won't even TOUCH any of this.
why eat your own? don't you have a computer?
-L.
Nice work, people. Atrios writes a calm, cogent explanation of his position on election stealing charges. He states that all of the hysteria dismayed him to such an extent that he took the blog down for a couple of days. He further explains that he'll give full exposure to any significant and documented charges.
His reward? A thread full of shrill, unsubstantiated charges. Posturing and accusations that the man who has done so much and contributed countless hours of his time to furthering the cause of progressives is some kind of "disappointment."
Startling news, people - THIS IS ATRIOS' BLOG. You don't like his editorial position, go vent on Democratic Underground. Atrios has provided us a forum for exchanging ideas and getting an occasional laugh. He's been a good and gracious host. Repay the guy by being a good guest and honoring his requests. He doesn't make many. Sheesh.
If the foo shits, wear it.
-
well, looks like Paul had no suggestions, only criticisms and blame.
i tried.
-L.
(sorry Fielding--i got tangled up with, well, i don't know what that guy's point even WAS, honestly. could it be some kind of baiting by trolls? i kind of wonder...)
deep breaths, happy place, we'll get to the bottom of it, we have a little time yet...no shouting here.
-L.
Librarian - you've just had the classic Paul experience.
Sad thing is, he cites a lot of beliefs that to him, "prove" that the election must have been stolen and I shared a whole bunch of them - before the election. Before I saw that all the detailed breakdowns showed that a slim majority of voters made their decisions based on fear and insecurity instead of rationality. Before I saw that the "youth vote" only went for Kerry at a rate of about 55-58%.
I hold out hope that investigation will find something to reverse the result. But as you noted, screaming at Atrios doesn't get it done. Cheers.
-
I sent so many emails begging you to hightlight BBV before the election, and you gave it almost no play at all. You have built connections with the party - did you use them to hightlight this problem? Hell no.
Duncan, YOU have not taken this issue seriously, particularly before the election, when it would have made a difference. So while I agree with you that calling fraud without proof is not effective, don't think I want to hear any lectures about that from you. But of course you won't read this any more than you read your emails. You're lazy, and just want to make a lot of money sitting around bitching. Great work if you can get it, I guess.
We deserve to get out ass kicked in elections if our own supporters won't mobilize on this.
I said before the election that some bloggers, some in print and e-media on the liberal side secretly want a Bush win. Good for bidness.
I know enough about empiricism to know that I can't trust a damn thing that came out of my glowing box for the past week. That's reason enough to suspect the election results for me.
Thanks Atrios....for this site and for always being a gracious host. Until we have honest to God real proof, other than "this smells fishy" (and I agree it does to high heaven), then, guys. we got squat.
That's all Atrios was saying...
LTRS - a little bit of blogger envy going on? BBV = Bethel Bible Village?
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I'd like to think that many of us are just patiently waiting for more information to roll out before we go all smack-down about it. Sounds like many of us are not.
No matter how it turns out, it's clear that we need a system we can absolutely trust. If people even suspect that all our hard work can be wiped out by a few well-placed keystrokes, grassroots campaigning will die.
Amen.
And furthermore, you can't blame people for being upset based on the 2000 election, based on the publicized accounts of the shortcomings of the Diebold and other equipment - shortcomings that defy reason to anyone, but especially to any decent programmer.
There is a very short period here for challenge. It may be that some people are shrill, but maybe it's just the fear that everything will pass too quickly and we'll find that we have been robbed too late to do anything about it.
Think about it. If two succeeding presidential elections are legitimized, what hope is there for the future
whoops. should have been
if two succeeding fraudulent elections . . .
Yeah, it's hard to distinguish bloggers from the mainstream media if they are all going to play the same game.
CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc aren't going to cover the voter fraud issue unless they are forced to by a groundswell from the internet. Atrios isn't covering it either, apparently for pretty much the same reason. Someone else has to do the work, he'll take credit once he stands to lose nothing in claiming a spearhead position.
Connect the dots, people.
We need an Alexander not an Atrios. We need someone that truly leads the fight and makes the first sword thrust against our enemies. We'll let Atrios provide the color commentary.
democraticunderground.com here I come...
I think what Atrios is saying is, "Let's WALK down to the meadow and fuck ALL the cows."
It's good advice. Who knows what the fine line is between the shrillness that gets you ignored and the shrillness that gets you listened to? However, there is such a line.
So what do we know?
We do know there was opportunity for the election to be rigged out of sight of the many monitors on the ground, because the internal workings of the black box voting machines were out of sight of the many monitors on the ground.
We don't know the election was rigged.
We do know that there have been computer glitches reported.
We don't know if they represent fraud.
We do know that statistically improbable figures were produced in exit polls and votes-against-registered-voter counts.
We don't know if there is more information out there that would explain those improbable figures but not point to fraud.
We do know that allegations have been made about the susceptability of the voting process to malicious hacking.
We don't know that any malicious outside hacking was done (and absent 1 million votes for Mickey Mouse in Dade County, I suspect little or no malicious hacking by disinterested outsiders was done).
All in all, we certainly don't KNOW that the election was a fraud. But right now it sure smells fishy.
Hats off to everyone who is doing the hard, patient work of walking down to the meadow to fuck all the cows.
Boo to those who are running down to fuck just one cow.
Double boo to those who say fucking cows is a distraction from moaning about how Karl Rove is better at fucking cows than you.
Remember what happened with the National Guard stuff. CBS ran with the story before they had it fully checked out and it made the whole thing look bogus.
Aethern
Well that is one interpretation of what happened -- I don't agree that CBS just made an "innocent" mistake - certainly there was more to that story than the fonts and typesets. The propaganda that comes out of this administration is just too damn good.
Folks, Atrios is right: you've got to get the facts together before screaming. It's okay to scream; I like to do it myself, and certainly in the first few days after the election, many of us have done that. But if you want to prove voter fraud and be taken seriously, then collect the facts and present them. Even a general had to have the forces and in this case, that means evidence. Quit slamming Atrios; he's right.
Paul -
If you're still here, I have a couple of questions:
Kerry's tactical retreat is troubling, but I respect his sacrifices for the nation, and will not condemn him for championing our cause, and winning a landslide victory-- denied by traitors (probably via threats) to the nation.
When you mention threats, are you speaking of threats made to Kerry (or someone close to him)?
We are a LANDSLIDE. Bush is going down, vote or no vote.
Do you mean via legal means -- indictments? I worry about whose hands the (In-)Justice Department is in, and how to get around that.
Also, I'm curious if you know the work of Gene Sharp -- the guy who's the specialist in successful, massive, nonviolent civil resistance movements. He -- and the widespread influence of his writings, translated into numerous languages -- has been a force for good in amazing events, such as the overturning of Milosovic and Ferdinand Marcos, Solidarity in Poland, etc. I'm reading his works now with avid interest, trying to catch up with thinking strategically about such a campaign, and am trying to convince others to read his "handbooks" on how citizenry can successfully resist anti-democratic regimes.
Proof right here:
http://ideamouth.com/voterfraud.htm#FL
The votes in Florida on optical scanners vs. other voting technology, gave results that were WAY WAY scewed towards Republicans.
I can't believe what pussies some people are. The 2000 election was stolen in Florida. If you look into these electronic voting machines, there were a lot of elections stolen from democrats in 2002 (e.g. incumbent popular dem governor of Georgia is up in polls by 11% the day before election, then loses by 5% in an all-electronic no-paper-trail vote the following day). Now in 2004, as we speak, the presidency and many congressional seats were just stolen AGAIN by nationwide massive electronic voter fraud. When do you take a stand, after the 4th election in 2006 is stolen? It won't do any good. They'll get 60 votes in the senate, and it's all over. Hello, 1984! Better start stretching out your throats, because you're going to get a lot shoved down it.
There are only 2 ways to look at the abundance of election information: either a "glitch" that favors republicans every time, or blatant fraud. There is no other simple explanation.
Take a stand! Fight now! I've donated to www.blackboxvoting.org, sent letters to all my friends and family to show them the situation that's not being reported in the media. People died (both voluntary and not) for you to have your right to vote. Fight for them to not have that sacrifice in vain. I'm not even a democrat. I can't believe the timidness I'm hearing here. Give yourselves a good hard slap in your face and wake up. Nice guys finish last you bitches!
I read a third of the posts, and then I headed for this here dialogue box, Apologies if someone already bent the following string:
THIS IS NOT up to Bev Harris. This is not up to the Blogosphere. Demo Underground, Atrios, or Kos.
A Senator from the US took a loan out on his house, and grabbed another Lawyer running mate, and setup what amounts to a multi-million dollar temporary business, that by all accounts did VERY WELL (Especially those telling Exit Poll Evals, and battleground polls just prior...)
If they were not smart enough to ensemble a Plan B, or set proper traps to snare rats, then the only recourse is to push a verifiable trail, and an open system, that right now, in many locales/precincts, in the important states, is suspiciously closed.
No Retreat No Surrender either meant something or it didn't, and if two Lawyers don't have a snare, forget about it.
Here is the kicker though:
I will NEVER let go another dollar if the person with the right stance and gravitas has to compete in the system, as it exists today.
I am done.
Period.
I agree with bejammin075. If you're waiting for "next time" for the voting process to be reformed, you're going to have a very, very long wait. The election was stolen the last time in Florida. Did they hurry up and reform the process? NO! They took their time. They obfuscated, they did exactly what they did the last time. But something new was introduced. These thugs are artists at their thuggery. They worked on improving their methods. They continue to steal elections with a multitude of means, but the one that holds the most promise right now is the electronic voting machine. Their is no accountability. Their is no way to account for votes. Is this how you would run a Fortune 500 company? No accounting sheets. Having no idea where the dollars are really going? Fraudulent accounting (Well, maybe, but not with an honest company)
The idea that this process is going to get "reformed" on its own accord is ludicrous. Bev Harris, of blackboxvoting.org has begun the largest freedom of information act lawsuit to force some accountability of the election?
How do we differ from banana republics that elect whatever dictator is slated to get elected by the real power behind the country?
Sadly, we are at the point where there is no difference.
The first step is speaking out.
Don't muffle your dissent.
Speak out! Speak out! Speak out!
We need your voices.
BUT WE WUZ ROBBED!!!
The problem is that you are part of reality base community in which a person is not accused of a crime unless there is overwhelming evidence.
I also feel democrats are demoralized by
the fact that Bush won popular vote and that an accusation of fraud this time around would be met with complete and total force since unlike 2000 Republicans also control executive branch (fbi, FEC etc).
But haven't you learned anything yet Duncan? Politics with republicans is blood sport.. the republicans managed to turn a non crime of Whitewater into an impeachment by taking accusations with MUCH less evidence and screaming loudly and often about a whole laundry list of possible crimes until one stuck.
we need scream loudly an often about this .. because we know deep down it is true and perhaps SOMETHING might stick.
Every. Vote. Counts.
You Democrats are like a person who just had the 3rd member of his/her family murdered by a known serial killer. He has a pattern of killing every other year (2000, 2002, 2004...). He killed your father, your mother, now your sister. You know who he is and where he lives. You know his motives and methods. The 3rd corpse is still warm, and people are like "Let's just sit back an see what happens. Let's not rush to judgement. Let's wait for the investigative leads to come to us".
You deserve to lose if that is your attitude. I hope I just pissed someone off. I hope your temperature rises and your pulse quickens. I hope you get off your asses and take action. Don't take no for an answer. Raise bloody hell.
Shrill closing statement: A CONCESSION IS NOT VALID WHEN THE SCOPE OF THE FRAUD WAS UNKNOWN AT THE TIME OF THE CONCESSION!!
The Rove's work with churches and their evangelical base in the 'burbs paid off.
Hmm, I don't think so, Old Hat (@12:40 a.m.). According to Kevin Drum:
God: Bush's Protestant base showed up to the polls in slightly lower proportion than in 2000, and their support increased by 3 points, the same as his overall increase in support.
Regular churchgoers voted in about the same proportion as in 2000, and their support increased by 1 point. In other words, their relative support for Bush actually decreased a bit compared to other groups.
Conclusion: religious voters supported Bush heavily, but no more so than in 2000. What's more, they didn't turn out any more strongly than any other group. Religious belief doesn't seem to have made much difference in the election.
In Iraq's last election, Saddam Hussein garnered 99.9% of the votes.
Who will be the first U.S. President to get 99.9% of the vote?
Oh, it can't happen here? It already is.
"There is no way we would be able to unseat Bush even if it is proven that Kerry won."
Why not?
I have believed all along that Kerry/Edwards are lying low so that the votes can be counted and the irregularities can be documented without Bush bringing out the big guns out trying to stop it all. A brilliant strategy!
However, if they prove there is fraud, and Kerry actually won the election, why can't Bush be knocked off the thrown? These people need to be stopped. Are we saying that, cheating to win an election is legal, and we have to honor that??
I'm sure we are cruising through some uncharted territory here, but Bush seems to have no problem changing the rules to suit his fancy.
"I can't provethat Colin Powell is lying, so I guess I'll support the war!"
Thanks, Atrios.
Careful consideration and study, despite how "Democratic" those things might be, is the right thing now. I'm watching and reading, but not maniacal about this. We can't afford to be.
You cannot make a statement such as "Bush won the popular vote by ____ million votes (fill in the blank) because there is no system currently in place for accounting for the votes. So who can make any definitive statement about how many people voted for whom.
The fix is in.
You can walk around with blindfolds on, but still---
the fix is in.
But it doesn't seem like we will ever get evidence of election fraud UNLESS we make a huge fuss and get someone to look carefully at the results. Everybody seems so frightened of the concept that the election might have been stolen (and I agree that it's a frightening concept) that they want to hide under their beds and ignore the issue entirely. I really want to see a hand recount of some of the suspect counties. If that shows that the electronic tallies are correct, I'll heave a big sigh of relief. But if they show fraud, then we've got to face up to it and fix it before the next major election or we're toast.
Shrill closing statement: A CONCESSION IS NOT VALID WHEN THE SCOPE OF THE FRAUD WAS UNKNOWN AT THE TIME OF THE CONCESSION!!
A concession is not valid, anyway.
If vote fraud or irregularities can be proven in a court of law (rules of evidence are very strict for a reason), and vote counts challenged, and a recount staged without the Supreme Court rushing in again (all dubious propositions), before the Electoral College meets in December, then John Kerry can still become President.
Impossible? No. Bush has not been re-elected yet. Nothing in the Constitution or election law substitutes the judgment of networks or exit polls for the official results of counted ballots. Now, can those counts be challenged?
There's the rub.
Olbermann brought up good reason to question the results, as did Thom Hartmann at Common Dreams. Good reason to question, however, does not equal proof of fraud, or even of malfeasance. It just gets you in the courthouse door, if the questions are supported by anything.
Because if they aren't, you get booted out the courthouse door, just as quickly. You got proof? Put it forward. No proof; too bad. That means we have to find another way.
But let's quit calling this a ringing defeat. Kerry got more votes for President, in raw numbers, than anyone in U.S. history, except for Bush, who got a few more. Enough for him to win (barely), the Electoral College (unless legitimate challenges can be made in Ohio or Florida; and if they can, let's make 'em!). The country is sharply but narrowly divided. And I'm not sure the GOP is going to feel much support for it's radical legislative plans.
So the so-called Chinese curse will probably fall upon us all: we may find ourselves living in interesting times.
P.S. Pol is right. Drop the CW meme that "religious voters" turned out to turn this election. Slate has the same analysis as Drum: it was, per Slate, the "war on terror" that turned the tide, not the war on gay marriage. Which, really, makes more sense. Those who see the threat from afar (the "red"s tates) fear it more than those who live through it and know the enemy better (New York, and the heavily populated Eastern states). Quirk of human psychology.
In the area where the exit polls seem to be substanially off... simply conduct a new poll and see how that compares with the tabulated results.
This check should be done all across the country ESPECIALLY where evoting was used. There is no reason why the NEW exit poll should not align VERY closely with the actual vote.
If it doesn't... we may REALLY have a problem.
The scope of the fraud is sooo huge and obvious, it's possible that Bush didn't even win the popular vote. Bush definitely didn't win the electoral college. And we will be able to figure out the approximate degree of fraud: Bev Harris of www.blackboxvoting.org is asking for (among other things) people to report to her the number of registered R's and D's in a precinct/county, and the actual R and D candidate vote in that precinct/county. When you assemble a table like this, as I believe she is, and then add another column for the voting technology, and calculate how slanted the vote is towards republicans (and show the dependence on voting technology), it will become abundantly clear that massive fraud was committed in many states. This is a graph here that's analogous to what I'm talking about:
http://ideamouth.com/voterfraud.htm#FL
You can do statistics on this and say, "if it's not fraud, the chances of a result like this are 6 million to one" etc. If you make the assumption that the technology that gave the expected result (i.e. the vote resembles party registration) is legitamate, whereas the optical scan is wildly scewed towards republicans in FL and presumed to be false, you can estimate the magnitude of the voter fraud in Florida.
I agree with NYMary, Atrio, pol and all the others that believe this is a delicate situation that must be handled in a way that (1). Does not tip our hand any more than necessary (2). Does not alienate potential voters (3). Does document problems in an objective manner, without inflammatory rhetoric.
While I want to work with ANYONE that voted against the smirking chimp, I believe the stakes here are high enough that restraint is in order. THe reality is that doing anything else merely perpetuates the administration's crimes, ensures that the US will no longer have fair elections, and further renders the opposition to chimpy as irrelevant.
Oh -- and can we please get off the gay thing too? This is not a "winning" issue. There are so many more issues that, while maybe not more important, are much more likely to build concensus that chimpy must go!
I'm sure we are cruising through some uncharted territory here, but Bush seems to have no problem changing the rules to suit his fancy.
If you mean "since 1960," I suppose you might be right. But the longer view (which, I know, even newspaper editors won't take, but they have no constitutional or legal authority, either) is that elections were never decided the night of the vote. The idea that they are now is sheer balderdash.
This is left-over from 2000, when a result not known within 30 days was a "crisis." Nonsense. Machines should take the drudgery out of the vote count, and insure accuracy; but the sine qua non should not be: "We know the answer NOW!"
No crisis is imposed by insuring an accurate count, and no official results are endangered or faith in government undermined by being sure the votes are accurately accounted for. Hell, Bush isn't even re-elected until December, when the electoral college meets.
Despite what the TV and newspapers may want to think or say, that vote is NOT a formality. Bush has proven adept at pressing these "technical" issues when it comes to voting. Why shouldn't we?
Late to the party here so I didn't have time to read all 300 comments, but I wrote something that has been working well as a response to various emails and work related boards when both trolls and otherwise well meaning, if spineless [Battered Wife Syndrome] lefties remark that it's over or that questioning our election system is just a conspiracy theory or tin foil hat material.
I think this sums up what many here have tried to say. Feel free to circulate:
When private citizens are allowed control over the machines that count our elections, and are not only openly partisan but partisan activists as well, then something is seriously wrong with our system. When these same people go to court to protect and are granted sole proprietary rights to the software codes that counts our votes for the purpose of preventing outside audit, then something is seriously wrong with our judiciary. When these same people receive 1/1,000th the press attention that would be given if George Soros or Michael Moore were to own those same companies (no, make that 1/1,000,000th), then something is seriously wrong with our press.
When anyone should worry about looking like a conspiracy theorist by pointing out the inherent potentials for conflict of interest by allowing openly partisan activists to count our votes in private (and then put the burden of proof on us to prove vote tampering), then something is seriously wrong with society.
In the interests of separating wheat from chaff, I'd like to debunk the Florida optical-scanner "scandal."
If you look at the results for the 5 or 6 most heavily populated counties using optical-scanners, they correspond very closely to the results for touch screen machines.
The "anomalous" results occur in sparsely populated counties, typically with a large percentage of white registered Democrats.
The mistake that all these sites make is assuming that a rural county with 75% registered Democrats should show the same support for Kerry as an urban county with 75% registered Dems.
The simple explanation? Dixiecrats, or as I like to call them, "racist scumbags."
Their ancestors voted for Douglas in 1860. Their moms and dads voted for George Wallace in 1968. They are democrats like Zell Miller is a democrat. They haven't bothered to switch party affiliation because their kin have always been democrats.
Look up statistics for any state that participated in the Southern Rebellion and you'll see the same pattern. For instance, Louisiana. Look at the line for LaSalle Parish. 9,505 voters. 6,343 white "Democrats." Now, look at the election results. That's right, 80% for Chimpy McBumpnoggin.
Let's get some of the smoke out of the room and focus on looking for real fraud instead of citing "political analysis" which manages to ignore the unpleasant realities of racist southern voting patterns.
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I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe this has already been said. I support putting voter referendums on the ballot for verifiable, accurate voting systems. Apparently other countries have them, this is not rocket science. Congress is not going to do it, HAVA didn't work. I think it has to be done state by state.
In addition, Bev Harris and her team are getting ahold of the Electronic Audit Trails that the voting machines create. It is an electronic log that may reveal the quirks and irregularities that prove fraud. Also the modem transmissions. Some wierd shit happened late on 11/2, and all of a sudden Bush was ahead. A friend of mine was sceptical of my claim of voter fraud at first. My friend designed the ticket vending machines for NJ Transit, and dealt with all aspects: programming, electronics, hardware, etc. When I told him that these voting machines sit there on election night with their modems on, that sealed the deal. He absolutely flipped out. Then you look at Bev Harris's website www.blackboxvoting.org, and there she shows you real documents to demonstrate that no analysis done AT ALL to certify these machines with regards to vulnerabilities...
"Like the saying goes: You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar."
David (Austin TX) 11.09.04 - 12:33 am
Like the other saying goes: The squeeky wheel gets the grease.
Or as the other saying goes, I believe that we have it in Missouri, you certainly use it in Texas: Fool me once shame..shame on ...me.... fool me again ...uh ...twice... uh..... aw f*ck it!
Here is the kicker though:
I will NEVER let go another dollar if the person with the right stance and gravitas has to compete in the system, as it exists today.
I am done.
Period.
RF
I hear that, RF.
Who's your daddy, DNC? DLC? Media Matters? Whatever acronym is "running" the Democrats these days?
Count every vote.
Seems like I remember that being said somewhere, sometime.
Soros is part of Carlyle these days.
We raised a lot of spare change to hire "10,000 lawyers".
Was it enough to cover court costs?
No?
When no one believes in the system the system can not last.
Who's your daddy?
Nadir is an insane ego maniac... but aside from that, is he right?
Count every vote.
But who owns the computers?
Oh. I'm sorry. I thought the burden of proof was on the democratic system that declares winners and losers and expects our confidence in the results.
They blew election 2000 quite obviously and brought in new machines of highly doubtful reliability and security. And WE'RE supposed to prove shit?
It's like those asshole religious folk who demand you prove God does NOT exist.
Here's a test:
Name one instance where a voting 'irregularity' helped John Kerry in 2004.
Go on.. I'm waiting.
I'll be here for a bit, go ahead and research.
If people want this issue to be taken seriously they need to stop thinking that
I'd like to declare a moratorium on this "if people want, they need to" formula.
Sounds much too close to "if you liberals want to win, you need to start thinking like Republicans" splatted all over blogtopia right now.
How about a simple, I don't believe this issue will be taken seriously unless it's backed up by hard evidence ... ?
Less advice. More personal opinion.
Please.
One note of encouragement that I think Atrios is missing (which is surprising considering his day job and the book -- right wing noise machine -- his boss wrote).
In less than a week, this went from a "tin foil" hat theory, to the comments section of various blogs, to the posts of various blogs, to progressive radio, to Members of Congress, to the mainstream media (prime time, no less).
We have been lamenting the right's message machine for years and trying to build our own. Well, folks, we are not there yet, bit I daresay we are getting there.
To anyone who has been feeling impotent after the election, look at how powerful you really are.
On the issue of the election, the facts will be the facts. We have a whole lot of things that are questionable, but precious few facts. Bringing this stuff into public discourse will give others a chance to debunk these questions, and we will see how all of this holds up.
Who's your daddy, Democrats?
Not mine, or most of us, - right?
Right?
If you make the assumption that the technology that gave the expected result (i.e. the vote resembles party registration) is legitamate, whereas the optical scan is wildly scewed towards republicans in FL and presumed to be false, you can estimate the magnitude of the voter fraud in Florida.
bejammin075
Yeah, that would be the problem here. If you make the assumption, you are making a false assumption and basing your argument on it. See my post @8:31.
Dixiecrats - the loveable folks that gave us George Wallace, Lester Maddox, the Secession for Slavery and the Ku Klux Klan. This isn't new, and the fact that they went for the guy that winked at homo-hatin' and arab-bashin' is hardly a suprise and certainly isn't prima facie for proving vote fraud. To pretend otherwise is to subject legimate, verifiable claims to ridicule.
Hence Atrios' counsel to concentrate on getting the facts and THEN raising a ruckus.
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If this election was legit, then all of you had better prepare for the reality that the dems will never be a majority again, cos they won't.
Just sayin'.
I agree with freshlaundry - all voter fraud helped w, now as in 2002 and 2000. I read in early 2002 that DC whispers said the USA of the founding fathers was gone and this crew was determined to maintain power. Now, a prediction: in 2006, the far right will win with 'suprising upsets'. You heard it here first! I bet on a w victory with my investments, tho I voted and donated to Kerry - may as well make some money off the fraud
Chimpy McBumpnoggin, I like that. Totally OT, does anyone know if Chimpy McBumpnoggin has had the physical he didn't have time for a couple of months ago?
Nice rant, Atrios. You're right - without proof, we will seem nuts.
However, it's just plain common sense to be suspicious. 1/3 of the nation voted into electronic systems owned either by those with very close ties to the Republican party (including Chuck Hagel)? Five high level employees at Diebold, one of them a senior software engineer, were felons convicted of fraud? Exit polls are suddenly not just slightly but hugely wrong, after being the gold standard in polling for decades? Tens of thousands of incidents of "irregularities"? Bush suddenly comes up with 8 million new voters?
Now consider: since 1963 moderates and lefties have had a President assasinated; the 1972 election stolen (you didn't think Watergate was about a break in did you?); the lingering suspicion of October Surprise in 1980; the attempted coup in 1998 against a sitting President based on lying about a blowjob; the outright theft of the 2000 election caused by erroneous felon lists in Florida.
Sorry, you'd be an idiot not to be suspicious. No, we don't have proof. Yet. But we'd better start looking. Or get used to a system such as Mexico had for the latter half of the last century.
As far as improving things before the '06 elections I think it is improtant to remember that it was a Democratic election official in Florida who approved the "Butterfly" ballot in 2000 and that Democratic election officials knew at least 2 years in advance that there would be electronic voting machines nation-wide that would not have paper trails this time around. It was up to these people to "improve things" for the 2004 election and they didn't do. Exactly who is it who will improve things for 2006?
Here's a test:
Name one instance where a voting 'irregularity' helped John Kerry in 2004.
Go on.. I'm waiting.
I'll be here for a bit, go ahead and research.
FreshLaundry
How about exit polls in Pennsylvania showing Bush leading by 4%? Oh no! A discrepancy between exit polls and results! Must be vote fraud! Sorry, just applying the same standards of logic some of the shrill posters have been using in this thread. Glad you didn't have to wait too long.
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I don't see how the burden of proof or even delivering real evidence should be on us. We are suspicious. We ask (as loudly as we can) for an investigation to see if there is evidence. If there is then it should be handled by due process.
I just came onto this thread in the morning and I don't have time to read it, but I'll just add my "virgin" comment as it were that I basically agree with Atrios. This issue has become a distraction for people which is not helpful. People are working on it, we will hopefully learn more over time, but regardless of what the actual count of votes cast either way on Nov. 2 may have been, we still have big problems to work on. Bush voters may have been fewer than we are told, but there were still a hell of a lot of them.
Our democracy is in trouble, because of the intellectual and moral corruption of the corporate news media, the overwhelming importance of vast sums of money in political campaigns, the sophistication and cynicism of the marketing of political candidates, and the rise of primitive, pre-enlightenment forms of religiosity -- let us call it the backlash against modernity, as glib as that may be.
We have big fights to fight. The integrity of the vote count is only one of them. Let's be proportionate.
There seems to be no doubt that there was cheating at an unprecedented level for the presidential election. However, it is troubling that Democrats did so poorly in the Congressional races. And a large part of the responsibility for these Democratic losses seems to fall upon the decision to blow the wad on the "air war" and not enough attention paid to the "ground war" at the precinct level, where the Republicans excelled. An effective Democratic ground game, it seems, might have helped minimize the cheating.
If we're putting this issue aside, and it increasingly looks like we're going to 
, we'd better get used to the fact that, once again, the congressional dems will not have any fight in them, especially if the statements of Obama + Pelosi are any indication. We have to give up on these people, they will not do our fighting for us.
You know, I trust my credit union. They don't make mistakes very often. That said, I wouldn't go without a paper trail for obvious reasons, not the least of which is it might actually encourage an unscrupulous employee to pilfer.
With that in mind, it's not so hare to fathom why people might be reaching for the foil, namely:
1. The people running the elections in two crucial states are fiercely partisan, and have histories of shady behavior with regards to running fair elections.
2. The machines used to count many of the votes are easy to tamper with, hard to audit, leave no paper trail, and are run by openly partisan people.
I'd say with such a scenario, the burden of proof ought to lie with the partisans to prove they've run a fair election. There's not much indication they're trying to do that. I realize there is no proof of fraud, but if actions are not quickly taken the results will be gone. Forever.
"Burden of proof" is a term derived wholly from the courts. And it means, simply, if you want to challenge the status quo (in this case, prove fraud against any person or entity) the court will not presume fraud was committed. That's the status quo. You want to chellenge it: the burden of proof is on you.
It's the civil equivalent of "innocent until proven guilty." And frankly, the latter is the one the present Government is so interested in shredding, especially in Gitmo. So I'm not persuaded by those who want to set it aside for their perceived convenience.
But you don't shift the burden of proof onto the government by claiming you are "suspicious" and "want an investigation." Even an investigation has to have something other than conspiracy theories or dissatisfaction with the results or curious anomalies between polls and results, to get started and move forward.
Face it kids, we raised the Diebold issues over a year ago. No one gave a shit then, no one gives a shit now.
Time to give the dems the heave-ho. They have NO INTEREST in fighting for us.
Okay, I'll buy the innocent until proven guilty argument. However, in a classic Catch-22 argument, with no paper trail, there's no proof to be gathered.
I'll go back to my banking analogy. With no paper trail, I can accuse my bank of malfeasance, but they can turn around and tell me that I have no proof of that. How could I object in such a scenario? I could demand an audit, and they could tell me there isn't sufficient evidence to demand one.
Right. And remember folks, we're still right and they're still wrong. Getting the most votes on November 2 is not an indication of who is righteous and good, it's just an indication of who got the most votes. If Kerry indeed received fewer, that doesn't vindicate Chimpy and his gang. Many countries have endured evil leadership, and it was often very popular. We have no special virtue in the U.S. Don't stake your self-esteem on this.
I forget who it was who said "I'd rather be right than President," but that's the philosophy we need to embrace.
Okay, I'll buy the innocent until proven guilty argument. However, in a classic Catch-22 argument, with no paper trail, there's no proof to be gathered.
You're absolutely right, and that's the problem with a paperless election. Without a verifiable record, you're screwed. The courts simply cannot help you.
It's that balance of powers issue, again. The courts are not the referees who clean up all messes, no matter how bad. They have their limits, and one is: no evidence, no case. You want to ensure there's evidence next time? Get the legislature to pass a law. That, the courts can enforce. No law, no paper trail? Sorry, no rememdy, because no evidence of fraud.
I'll go back to my banking analogy. With no paper trail, I can accuse my bank of malfeasance, but they can turn around and tell me that I have no proof of that. How could I object in such a scenario? I could demand an audit, and they could tell me there isn't sufficient evidence to demand one.
Exactly. That's why there has to be a paper trail. Because banks are audited by the government, and because private citizens insist on the ability to protect their own interests. Until people take an equivalent interest in their vote, they will not obtain the protection of that vote, that they deserve.
These are the conditions that prevail.
BTW--
What cervantes said.
In fact, I think a WII is a curse for the far right, as well as 'we' the people': Iraq is a disaster, a looming fiscal/dollar crisis, the economy, decent jobs leaving. Question: how much damage will the sheeple accept? What proportion of me should be in commodities bonds and foreign currencies?
Jeffers:
Slate has the same analysis as Drum: it was, per Slate, the "war on terror" that turned the tide, not the war on gay marriage. Which, really, makes more sense.
And yet today in the NYT, I read that some in the Kerry campaign are saying that the reason he lost is because he was unable to convince voters that he had a better chance of righting our sinking economic ship. Arrrg!
sorry duncan but you are off base here.
we should be screaming bloody murder about this. for 8 friggin' years we had to hear about how bill and/or hillary clinton were the spawn of satan until FINALLY the bastards hit on something. they hated clinton and had the guts to be seen as freaks by the normal people out there so that maybe something would shake loose. they were right and dems have been hurting with respect to the 'trust factor' since.
if we can't lose our sense of assinine 'fair play' in a street fight with repect to the fundamental mechaninsm of democracy, voting, we have no hope at all in beating these assholes.
we should be screaming bloody murder about this vote and the 2000 vote and force the infotainers to cover it. it worked for the assholes with respect to clinton and it would work for the patriots who want to see that voting is, ya know, actual real and not a pro-wrestling match.
When you assemble a table like this, as I believe she is, and then add another column for the voting technology, and calculate how slanted the vote is towards republicans (and show the dependence on voting technology), it will become abundantly clear that massive fraud was committed in many states.
And yet, even if you do this, you still have to show how the fraud was carried out. You have to have hard evidence that this voting machine was programmed illegally, that that central tabulator was rigged, that someone edited the file on the PC that contained vote counts, etc., etc.
If the analysis above is carried out and it indicates fraud, we need the FBI to investigate, find some of the low-level criminals who helped with the fraud and convince them, via the threat of long jail terms, to sing like canaries.
Elemeno is right. Since when has the right given a rat's ass if any of their claims could actually be proven? Who cares if the right thnks we're tin foil cases? SCREAM SCREAM SCREAM, even if there is no hard evidence.
It occurs to me that participating in the blogodrome is the exact opposite of tin-foil-hat wearing. I mean, the purpose of the Alcoa Sombrero is to prevent THEM from reading your thoughts, right? We here in the ether want our thoughts read. We spit out our random, rambling brain farts all the time, hoping they reach a central location where somebody will make sense out of them. Participating in the hive-mind is more like wearing a cling-wrap fez.
Let's stop with the conspiracy theory albel okay? That's an unfair pejorative.
The fact is Kerry was ahead in most polls in Ohio before the election, and in several polls in Fla before the election. He wins the voting day exit by quite a large margin. Rove tells Bush he has lost.
Then the vote is flipped by magic to where Bush is winning. What the hell happened? Well, for one, we know there were active vote suppression efforts in Fla and Ohio.
Overall, Bush ends up getting 8 million more votes than he did in 2000. This is from a guy with an approval rating under 50% and a guy who the Dems are mobilized like never before to unseat. Who really thinks there were 8 million fundies out there who hadn't voted in 2000?
And you're telling me to believe there was vote fraud is a conspiracy theory?
Please. We know these guys are amoral assholes. Vote fraud is nothing for them.
How about exit polls in Pennsylvania showing Bush leading by 4%?
The fact that Kerry won does not mean there was a voting irregularity. What the poster asked for was an indicident were Kerry was on the receiving end of specific albeit unexplained votes, for instance, where a voting machine incorrectly gave him votes.
If the analysis above is carried out and it indicates fraud, we need the FBI to investigate, find some of the low-level criminals who helped with the fraud and convince them, via the threat of long jail terms, to sing like canaries.
Ashcroft's FBI?????
Don't scream. It gives away your position. Act.
Exactly. That's why there has to be a paper trail...
These are the conditions that prevail.
Yes, which is why we need to work toward an international (non-UN - the true tinfoil hatters would freak) standard for electoral reliability and press to have it adopted on a county by county until the entire nation accepts it. Until we do, we'll never know.
Would Republicans accept for one second an electronic system created and maintained by Democrats? Well, then why do we?
This has nothing to do with giving Kerry the win, IMO. It has to do with something far more basic: WITHOUT AN HONEST VOTE, WE DO NOT HAVE A DEMOCRACY.
No one can argue this.
People should not have to wait 6 hours in the rain to vote. Not in any country, certainly not in America.
People in poor neighborhoods should have exactly the same voting facilities as people in rich neighborhoods. Period.
There should not be - should never have been - should never be again - any such outrage as PAPERLESS ELECTRONIC VOTING. You might as well have people write their votes on paper and send them to the moon on a helium ballon. It makes a mockery of democracy. Anyone who defended it is inherently - and demonstrably - unAmerican. Simple.
None of this has anything to do with Kerry/Bush at this point. We need to fight for the future of our democracy.
We need investigations and legislation to prevent this from ever happening again. Before November 2005. And no one needs to shut up about it, get over it or find a life. THIS is Ground Zero for our democracy. Right here.
"NOBODY should dismiss the basic integrity our democratic intitutions lightly. " (sic)
I do.
There is NO integrity in mechanized OR electronic voting, overseen by partisans without review.
This has been going on for over 40 years.
Sometimes the "right guys won," but they still may have cheated.
The system is too easy to cheat with. And we all act like it is unassailable. It is a sham top to bottom.
Elections need to be run like they are in Canada. Paper ballots. Observers present at the COUNTING stage, too. Uniform standards for voter registration. No partisan oversight of the process (the returning officers in Canada can't vote).
But hey, if you feel like this would be big gummint stomping all over your local control, well, then get used to local control falling to whatever mob gets their machines in first.
Kerry Edwards
report an election day problem
We want to make sure that every voter is counted. If you experienced or witnessed a problem at your polling place, please fill out the form below.
None of this has anything to do with Kerry/Bush at this point. We need to fight for the future of our democracy.
Amen. Electoral fraud has been going on forever in this country. LBJ allegedly won his Senate seat through a precinct of dead men voting. This is nothing new.
But it doesn't need to be tolerated and should not be in the 21st century.
Blackboxvoting.org is one good place to start.
If'un these "irregularities" ain't a smokin' gun, then LHO was the Lone Gunmen.
I would be more willing to accept claims of fraud if those alleging it started from a factual basis. For example, many people say that Ohio used electronic voting machines, but 69 out of 88 counties used punch cards and 13 more used optical scan machines. Touch screen electronic voting was not in use in the vast majority of Ohio's counties.
The Kerry/Edwards campaign had large numbers of lawyers stationed both inside and outside polling places. There were long lines at some polling places, some misunderstandings about provisional ballots, and some poor election practices (requiring ID when Ohio law does not require it). I did not see or hear of any significant fraud in the county I was assigned to.
It is entirely true that there are a sufficient number of either weird or clearly unacceptable things which happened during this election. It's entirely true that the media should be following up more of these stories; the integrity of our democracy is seriously at stake. But, the cause is not helped by touting inconclusive statistical studies as "proof" or screaming "kerry won! kerry won!" every five seconds.
Thank you.
On a related issue, how is it that we are supposed to be assured of our vote when there are flaming partisans counting and verifying them??? If you ask me, this is a bigger assault on our voting rights than faulty machines.
Hell man you are living in a fantasy world. Proof?????
Darn near half the friggen country still thinks Saddam had WMD's and helped the terrorist. Proof????
What's the point?
If we have to wait for "Proof" then we will never get justice. Oh I know now your going to say "That's not the American way". Neither is stealing an election.
Listen people, OJ was Guilty and Bush Stole this election and that's the truth. Proof will never come in a 100% air tight package but that doesn't mean it didn't happen and that is the TRUTH.
Now what are we gonna do about it?
Dixie County
15.0% Reg. Repub 77.5% Reg. Dem
4,433 Bush 1,959 Kerry
Columbiana County
31.3% Reg. Repub 56.5% Reg. Dem 16,753 Bush 8,029 Kerry
There are similar results in dozens of Florida couties. This isn't tinfoil hattery, and it isn't unverifiable. These are optical scan ballots. Lets do some recounts.
The ruling elites want this country turned into JesusLand, as an ignorant, superstitious population is more easily manipulated into doing things for the elites, that are against said population's own self-interest (for example: wouldn't it be a lot easier to send religious fanatics into the desert to fight other religious fanatics?). This "evangelicals won the election" spin plays into that. Now they supposedly have the mandate to send us back into the dark ages, and they will use legistlation and the judicial system to do it.
Since the evangelical vote thing keeps coming up, thought this needed to be repeated, even tho its OT of the vote fraud investigation
Simply put. Thank you.
great post. dead on.
From Keith Olberman's blog:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/
"Having said all that - for crying out loud, all the data we used tonight on Countdown was on official government websites in Cleveland and Florida. We confirmed all of it - moved it right out of the Reynolds Wrap Hat zone - in about ten minutes."
Darn near half the friggen country still thinks Saddam had WMD's and helped the terrorist. Proof????
OMG, thank you for that.
I may be accused of trollery for this, but it might be salutary for the young people here to be reminded that many credible historians believe that the 1960 election, in which Kennedy defeated Nixon, was fraudulent. Specifically, Mayor Daley (the elder) made sure Kennedy got Illinois and Johnson gave him Texas. You could look it up.
Exactly how y'all want to interpret or apply that in the present context is up to the individual. Just giving you the facts, ma'am, just the facts.
Yeah, OJ was guilty, and the Modesto Fertilizer Salesman is 100% Not Guilty.
Second Stolen Election. Second Term Impeachment.
Bev Harris is an unreliable idiot, sadly.
Thank you. Someone finally said it.
Bev Harris is being made out to be this big hero who's gonna save democracy.
Google 'Bill Clinton cigar,' and see how much of a committed liberal Bev Harris is.
just want to drop a line to old hat. i know that the "playstation generation" may not have used all of it's numbers to make a difference but the youth vote turned out in record numbers...not to mention surpassing the targeted goal. if you want to blame a generation blame the reagen loving 30 somethings. isn't it odd that the number one age group to vote for bushee boy was the one that was out of draft range?
now...about this whole stolen election thing...let us be reminded that bush and co did not need to commit fraud on all of these votes just in florida and ohio. i wish this would all turn out to be a conspiracy theory but we all know that nothing with these neocons is a conspiracy anymore. why would i think anything other than voter fraud given their track record. we need, no wait, we HAVE to push harder on all the issues up for questioning. it worked for the rethugs when they screamed LIBRAL MEDIA for twenty-plus years.
I am very encouraged by what KOS wrote, as it demonstrates that he is out of denial, which only leaves anger before he gets to acceptance. Recovery is difficult, and I applaud you for the effort.
Jeb in '08.
With all the liberal handwringing coming from the press and blogs about how to win like the Republican's did, it seems this is a good place to "be like the Republicans" - would they stand for this crap?
If Kerry had won by a slim majority and it came out that a county in Ohio with 600+ registered voters had cast 3000+ votes for Bush would they wait for "proof"?
PROOF?!?!?
YOU WANT THE PROOF?!?!?
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE PROOF!!!
'Bill Clinton Cigar', brought to you by Bev Harris.
I am not giving up on the democrats just yet. Rep. John Conyers has called for the GAO to investigate. He is my congressman due to some real crazy re-districting and he easily won re-election. I believe the GAO is politically neutral (entrenched bureaucrats) and this is only one of several fronts that this issue can be confronted. I will write him to thank him and encourage him to continue.
I'm not crazy, I'm an activist.
to: Stranger
re: Bev Harris cigar.
Your point?
TN -
This is why you lost - you honestly don't get it.
Good post. Now, do we not get the results of provisional/absentee ballots until the OH election is certified?
GAO may get on the case, so let's see what they come up with.
I know Our Genial Park Ranger here hates it when we feed the trolls. But, like a Tourist in Jellystone Park here's my pickAnick basket:
Numero Uno Troll ---
Jeb run in 2K8? Be serious. Watch Red State Amurrica miraculously turn Blue if Jeb runs. His Frenchy designer clothes smugglin' Mexican wife and his crackhead daughter are gonna produce another mandate? Diebold would have to rig a lot mo' votin' machines to pull that one off. Well, how about George P or Jebby? Red State Amurrica is gonna have to become a lot mo' racially tolerant before it votes for a "mixed race" scion, even from the Bush Dynasty. Jeebus will come back or the illegal aleeunz will have to take over before that happens. The Bush Dynasty ends with aWol's Second Term Impeachment if the Second Stolen Election doesn't end it first (or starts the ball rollin' for the 2nd Term Impeachment). Happy Veteran's Day, y'all!
My point is that there's more to Bev Harris than meets the eye.
Jeb in '08? Not bloody likely. When all is said and done, there WILL be an investigation into his role in rigging the state of Florida for his brother. He'll be dirty goods.
Repubs should be honest with themselves also. We may not be able to impeach these war criminals and treasury robbers because they have a complicit Congress. But we have plenty of time now to drag every little bit of their dirty laundry and stinky little crimes out into the daylight. And there will be no one for the cowards to blame this time. No one at all.
Old Hat would like us all to know that Hugo Chavez, elected by a large majority of his nation's population, in an election that was judged as reliable by international observers, is a dictator.
I'm not sure, but Chavex may be the only duly elected Dictator in the world. His heart's in the right place on some things, but his head's up his ass other ways. Trust me, you wouldn't want him running America.
Wait a minute. Come to that, Bush is sort of a reverse Chavez, if you think about it...
ok, how do you expect anyone to get "legitimate facts". we are peons! we are making a point that maybe something is wrong with the counting of the votes, other than that peons like us are not going to get info!
Knead Sum Would -
Just like Karl Rove said - this is way too easy. Give me a little more competition than the Libs gave 41. Please bring more than vitriol.
Jeb in '08? Not bloody likely. When all is said and done, there WILL be an investigation into his role in rigging the state of Florida for his brother. He'll be dirty goods.
Repubs should be honest with themselves also. We may not be able to impeach these war criminals and treasury robbers because they have a complicit Congress. But we have plenty of time now to drag every little bit of their dirty laundry and stinky little crimes out into the daylight. And there will be no one for the cowards to blame this time. No one at all.
The following is *really* long, but I hope it might be interesting to people looking for evidence of election fraud by electronic voting.
The use of electronic voting in this election has caused reasonable concern about the trustworthiness of results. If electronic voting machines do not produce a paper ballot that the voter can examine while voting and election officials can later review in recounts, it's possible that the internal records stored by the machines could be manipulated in favor of a specific candidate.
One way that such manipulations might be revealed is through statistical analysis of voting results, as has been carried out at ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm. I've analyzed the data they provide and (pending further work) found no strong evidence that the electronic voting machines in Florida were rigged. I'll give a non-technical discussion to support this tentative conclusion, although anyone familiar with the most basic statistical testing techniques will be able to see what I've done.
Often the most difficult problem in analyzing data is deciding exactly which question to ask. In our case, we have data for the 2000 and 2004 elections by county in Florida. For each county, we know the number of registered Democrats and Republicans for both elections, how many votes were cast for the Democratic and Republican tickets in both elections, and whether the county used electronic voting (E-Touch technology) or more conventional voting (Op-Scan technology) in 2004. There were 15 E-Touch counties and 52 Op-Scan counties. One way to see whether the voting method had an effect on election results is to look at the change in voting Republican versus Democrat between the two elections. For example, in Alachua county, which used Op-scan voting, about 40% of the votes in 2000 went to the Republican candidate, while in 2004 about 43% were Republican votes. The difference, which we'll call the shift, is +3 points. Collier County, which used E-Touch machines, voted 65.5% Republican in 2000 and 65.0% Republican in 2004, for a shift of -0.5 points. Using these terms, we can phrase our data analysis question as follows: Does the size of the shift depend on whether E-Touch or Op-Scan was used in a county? In other words, does the mean shift in the E-Touch counties differ significantly from the mean shift in the Op-Scan counties?
The logic of answering such a question essentially involves assuming that when we divide the counties into two groups, E-Touch and Op-Scan, our decision about which county goes into which group is random with respect to shift. Under this assumption, if we compute the mean shift values for the two groups, we would expect that the two results are "reasonably" close to each other. There might be some difference between them, but this will be due to random variation--for example, some large shift values might be found in
Then there is this: http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
I don't get it, why can't we have paper ballots and hand counts like every other democratic nation. Period.
Make it a constitutional amendment.
Oops. Too long. See my web page for the full analysis.
we need to build momentum in the democratic party for sweeping voter reform: federal standards for federal elections, no paperless e-voting, and no concessions till votes are counted. this may be the most important legislation ever.
stranger. well, if bev harris DOES somehow come up with something resembling irrefutable evidence of vote fraud on a scale that it handed Bush the election, one could point to the cigar and say "see, she isn't just a partisan hack, she was involved in marketing a product that ridiculed KKKlintoon!!!"
But on the other hand, its not wise to put all the voter fraud investigation eggs in one basket, as some seem to be doing. For instance, there have been lots of calls to make donations to blackboxvoting.org by AAR personalities. Perhaps those who have something to give, should also consider sending donations to other organizations too, such as http://www.verifiedvoting.org ?
[i]" But, the cause is not helped by touting inconclusive statistical studies as "proof" or screaming "kerry won! kerry won!" every five seconds."[/i]
Re: Saying Kerry Won
Seriously, I don't understand why this is harmful. Very respectable people, like Greg Palast are claiming it. Read his book, if you haven't already.
I see that rationale careful thinkers are siding with the "we need to be circumspect" camp on this.
Out of respect to Atrios, others that have posted here, and Tom Tomorrow, whose wisdom I respect, I will await your improved strategy of prudence.
However, without a clear message to the electorate, I'm afraid the truth will get buried. "Kerry won", is a nice simple sound bite. A message of hope to a demoralized Kerry camp. It's true or false depending only on who you believe right, which sources you trust? Even if it can't be proven to the courts satisfaction. What else can we do? Use harsh language?
Either way, we can all agree that we need keep the pressure on getting to the bottom of this right? If there is nothing wrong with asking questions, how about :
"Kerry won, didn't he?"
it's hilarious. we all know that these guys are lying assholes that want power and will do anything to get it but we rely on quaint things like 'proof' before we get REALLY angry.
we dems are like bugs bunny (i think it was bugs) when he would draw a line in the sand, yosemite sam or whoever would step over it and bugs would say 'ok, step over THIS line', so forth and so on.
the repubs want total domination and will do anything to get it. they put partisans in traditionally non-partisan positions (elections officials) so that they are doing their best to make sure things go the 'right way'. while we all scream about e-voting, they rig the machine that counts 'scan-tron' votes and we are befuddled.
until dems grow some balls and are willing to not be seen as the protectors of reason and fair play, these guys will continue to eat our lunch.
have any of you, ever, been in a fight? i mean, c'mon people, being right can only get you so far. eventually, you'll get to a point where reasoning is not a possibility and you just have to risk it all and go for it.
if all your self-worth is tied into how logical and reasonable you are, then, cool, stick with it. if you truly want to see the principles that democrats stand for be accepted in this country, you'll have to beat the shit out of the assholes that are blocking you. no holds barred.
Atrios:
The demands of leadership are qualitatively different than the responsibility of thoughtful blogging and careful editing. Withdrawal in the middle of crisis was not, in my opinion, an advantageous way to take our collective disappointment and outrage and generate something beneficial and genuine. I wished you had chosen another path. Blaming a certain portion of your following for your abrupt, cryptic exodus only sets ups divisive camps and coalitions.
With so much energy being poured into this site, you may be at a cross roads with respect to the role you wish to play in the life of thousands.
An admirer,
I'm with you, 8. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen a better summary of the "state of play" re: election shenanigans anywhere. I hope you don't mind if I copy and distribute this post via email (with proper credit, of course).
As for those Florida statistics, it always seemed to me that the discrepancy between registrations and the actual vote might just be an artifact of a closed primary. Like most of the South, FL was heavily Democratic at the state and local level until recently, so even conservatives had to register as Democrats in order to have a meaningful voice in primaries. Oklahoma likewise shows a heavy registration advantage for Democrats, but nobody thinks Bush stole that state. (Besides, does anyone really think that election thieves would go about their business so clumsily, when it would've been much easier to conceal just bumping Bush's totals by a few percent in each county?)
I'd be interested, though, if any House or Senate races might have been affected fraudulently. Has anyone looked at this?
As for why we're so willing to believe that the election was stolen, I think this says it best. The alternative, that 59 million of our countrymen are just Klingons with good plastic surgery, is a pretty horrible thing to contemplate.
I agree with your approach. We should reserve judgment until FOIA requests have been honored, data is in, personnel have been interviewed and responsible opinions have been offered by those who have seen the relevant materials and have the expertise necessary to interpret them.
Save the energy; we may need it soon, but not yet.
Reality Bites -
Wake up - the "Bush stole the election in 2000" didn't work for the past 4 years. You actually think that "Kerry won" is going to change someone's mind about what L really stands for. After you leave denial, there's only anger before you reach acceptance. Good luck, and see in '08.
no. i troll: you are quoting bush's brain (rove) "Just like Karl Rove said - this is way too easy. Give me a little more competition than the Libs gave 41. Please bring more than vitriol" so you are obviously aware that you did not elect bush right??? not bush but his "brain". at least you rethugs have no problem admitting the situation for what it is. and let me ask you this: do you consider yourself a "Godly" person? I am sure you do if you are quoting the evangelical nutjob rove. that said would you please tell me when telling the truth no longer became a "christian value"? did it happen when all you sheep decided that you could have controll over someone else's happiness by dictating who and what they can do with their bodies? or did it happen when all you puppets realized that we have a dictator and you better jumb on the bandwagon? when you are able to come up with one single individual thought of your own get back to me. i still say that the number one problem with you nuts is that you are not only unable to think for youselves but you actually WANT someone to tell you how to live.
LO,
Point taken. If Bev does some good with those FOIA requests, good on her.
But your second point is more important - there are others in the field that should be listened to, and we should not hang all of our hopes on one person.
http://www.bopnews.com/archives/
...02328.html#2328
A list of articles on vote fraud. Did some one ask for evidence?
Atrios is right if the election was hacked it will become obvious sooner or later. It would take fraud on a massive scale to pull it off. These Guys have fucked everything up so far. I can't believe they could pull it off without leaving a clear trail of guilt.
Blaming a certain portion of your following for your abrupt, cryptic exodus only sets ups divisive camps and coalitions.
But remember who his daddy is.
We thought we had an election. We foam that it was a re$election. We could be wrong on both counts.
Our host is sincere. But Bu$hCo supporters and Moonies and tin foil hatters aren't the only people capable of kidding themselves.
In reality it may have been only an attempt at a friendly takeover.
http://www.bradfriedman.com/BradBlog/
BradBlog is keeping track of all this too. Good source for quick updates!
Well hey, even if something solid turns up showing that the vote was tampered with, it could be buried by something else that grabs all the headlines. Around the time that the Media Consortium was due to release their finds on the 2000 Florida recount, there was a BIG BOOM!!
No kitties?
No kitties?
ziggy -
It is Godly to tell the truth. Remember, there's only one more stage to go through before you reach acceptance. It's denial, anger, then acceptance. Hang in there - although you can't see it from DENIAL, acceptance is in sight.
Also, atrios has finally made it to ANGER, so take a cue drom him.
Jeb in '08.
it's hilarious. we all know that these guys are lying assholes that want power and will do anything to get it but we rely on quaint things like 'proof' before we get REALLY angry.
I tend to agree with this.
Where is the fucking outrage????
Kerry was winning in all polls before the election in Ohio and then won in the exit poll. Bush wasn't getting more than 48% of the vote, which almost always shows the incumbent's upper limit of support. There was massive turnout which always favors dems. And somehow this leads to a Bush win in Ohio? We're really supposed to believe Bush pulled huge numbers of fundies out of his ass?
We know there were vote suppression shenanigans in Ohio. The Republican Secretary of State clearly was gunning for Bush.
What more evidence do we need?
Where IS the outrage, Atrios?
Frankly, I am dispappointed in oyu.
Then there is this: http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
Anonymous
I'm going to keep debunking this nonsense every time it comes up. The great optical scanner conspiracy of 2004 is a damn myth. It's a distractor, and can be debunked by anybody with basic math skills and access to demographic information. By bringing this up, you allow the wingers to use the smoke from this to obscure any real issues that are uncovered. Remember how kerning and superscripts somehow deflected the fact that shrubkins was an underperforming failure in the TANG?
See my post @8:31. Use the links.
On the demographic page, select a small parish (under 20,000).
Add the number of "white democrats" in the parish to the number of "total republicans."
Subtract 5%.
Divide the resulting number by the number of "total voters."
Write down the resulting percentage.
Now, go to the election results page.
Find the result for the parish you selected. I'll bet it is real damn close to the percentage you came up with.
What does this show? It shows that the Bush campaign succeeded in making this the most racially divided election in the south since 1972, a story the media is conveniently ignoring. It sure as Hell does not show vote fraud.
Granted, it isn't Florida, but I'd bet the left one that a similiar process applied there would yield the same consistent results. So would Alabama, Georgia, or Mississippi.
It's the same old Klan in a brand new hood.
-
My fears are that if the story is allowed to "go away" until something is really found, that:
1. Not enough attention will be put on those looking for problems to ensure that the problems get identified. (People wishing to sweep them under the rug, may be allowed to do so if someone isn't watching them.) and
2. it will become just like 2000, in that once the problem is proven it will be too late and the Repubs will just say that it is spoiled grapes by the left.
#1 - glad your on board for the republican fiscal crash and military disaster! What will you white boyz mess with next?
spooked -
Once again, you are close to recovery - there's DENIAL, ANGER, then ACCEPTANCE. You can make it.
Bush's 'Incredible' Vote Tallies
By Sam Parry
November 9, 2004
George W. Bush’s vote tallies, especially in the key state of Florida, are so statistically stunning that they border on the unbelievable.
While it’s extraordinary for a candidate to get a vote total that exceeds his party’s registration in any voting jurisdiction – because of non-voters – Bush racked up more votes than registered Republicans in 47 out of 67 counties in Florida. In 15 of those counties, his vote total more than doubled the number of registered Republicans and in four counties, Bush more than tripled the number.
Statewide, Bush earned about 20,000 more votes than registered Republicans.
By comparison, in 2000, Bush’s Florida total represented about 85 percent of the total number of registered Republicans, about 2.9 million votes compared with 3.4 million registered Republicans.
Bush achieved these totals although exit polls showed him winning only about 14 percent of the Democratic vote statewide – statistically the same as in 2000 when he won 13 percent of the Democratic vote – and losing Florida’s independent voters to Kerry by a 57 percent to 41 percent margin. In 2000, Gore won the independent vote by a much narrower margin of 47 to 46 percent.
[For details on the Florida turnout in 2000, see http://www.msnbc.com/m/d2k/g/pol...fice=P&
state=FL. For details on the 2004 Florida turnout, see http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004...P/00/
index.html]
Exit Poll Discrepancies
Similar surprising jumps in Bush’s vote tallies across the country – especially when matched against national exits polls showing Kerry winning by 51 percent to 48 percent – have fed suspicion among rank-and-file Democrats that the Bush campaign rigged the vote, possibly through systematic computer hacking.
Republican pollster Dick Morris said the Election Night pattern of mistaken exit polls favoring Kerry in six battleground states – Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada and Iowa – was virtually inconceivable.
“Exit polls are almost never wrong,” Morris wrote. “So reliable are the surveys that actually tap voters as they leave the polling places that they are used as guides to the relative honesty of elections in Third World countries. … To screw up one exit poll is unheard of. To miss six of them is incredible. It boggles the imagination how pollsters could be that incompetent and invites speculation that more than honest error was at play here.”
But instead of following his logic that the discrepancy suggested vote tampering – as it would in Latin America, Africa or Eastern Europe – Morris postulated a bizarre conspiracy theory that the exit polls were part of a scheme to have the networks call the election for Kerry and thus discourage Bush voters on the West Coast. Of course, none of the networks did call any of the six states for Kerry, making Morris’s conspiracy theory nonsensical. Nevertheless, some Democrats have agreed wi
Who's your daddy?
We yell at Nadir for taking money from Bu$hCo... but the hand of Sauron is everywhere these days.
disent -
After the fiscal crash and the miltary disaster, the Libs can swoop in and save the day. Fair enough?
Jeb in '08.
Nightline tonight via Kos comments.
It's useless hoping it won't have the tone of the lead up to the war...
There is something wrong with believing you have answers to those questions that are not supported by the evidence.
Agreed. We then become the type of people that we rail against. And, the republicans want us out here questioning everything and spinning our wheels, screaming and yelling about how Gavin Newsom lost the election for Kerry, blah blah blah.
Please read Jane Smiley's article at Slate:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2109218/
Bush's 'Incredible' Vote Tallies
By Sam Parry
November 9, 2004
http://www.consortiumnews.com/20...004/
110904.html
The statistics prove that something stunning occurred in the state of Florida. Arguing that there should be an investigation isn't screaming "Kerry Won, Kerry Won!" What it is doing, however, is scrutinizing the statistics, seeing clear anomalies, and investigating how those anomalies occurred. The statistics are clearly shocking--I've got the numbers right in front of me and Consortium News has examined them. Something is wrong here.
hey, i was happy to see comments, links, info on the voting "irregularities". where else am i going to find these? the dallas morning news?
http://opnadefense.blogspot.com/
Yet another site looking at fraud, not as comprehensive as BradBlog's ,which I'd posted earlier.
Suzanne -
For the last time, the road to acceptance goes through DENIAL and ANGER. Atrios moved to ANGER, and I suggest you go with him. You are only solidifying the stereotype of the Lib who cries when things don't go his/her way.
Jeb in '08.
How about cynicism , subverting denial or anger, troll?
"As always, right on point Atrios. There is no evidence of fraud, hell, there isn't even evidence that the numbers from Florida are anything other than somewhat "curious""
To quote one of our fearless leaders, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Seriously, though, there is a significant amount of smoke, so what's the harm in looking to see if there's fire?
Most of those labelling doubters "tinfoil hat wearers" might be being deceived by the sheer audacity of those who would steal elections. Oh my God, they'd never do that. Yeah, right.
My question is, where have they shown before that there's ANY line they won't cross?
"Kevin Drum has spent the last week debunking the "exit polls were all wrong" line of attack."
I like Kevin, and he's a smart guy, but so far I haven't seen anyone come up with a good explanation of this:
http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=405
Excuse me, but the last time someone said "Move On", we failed to do give voting regulations the scrutiny necessary to make last week's elections less flawed.
I will be dammed if I do the Republican's job for them, in telling myself to be less shrill and move on. No matter who gets sworn into office in January, we have to fix this system *now*, else we will never win again.
And if Atrios and the newly respected liberal blogs don't want to help, fine. Someone has to be MLK, for Malcolm X and the Panthers to actually represent a threat that makes the middle more palatable.
Hey. Wow!
For you maybe that banner means something.
Nicely done.
Oh, yeah:
Mr. Troll -- if that is your real name -- if you knew squat about grieving, I mean really grieving -- Rule One is Grief Happens On Its Own Timetable.
You, your Bush Team Leader contact, Scaife, *no one* can tell me when or how to stop grieving, and damn you for even thinking you're part of the process.
Take your marbles and go home; you've won. Why are *you* still angry?
It's not about grieving, as in grieving for the death of a person. This is about accepting REALITY, which does go from DENIAL, to ANGER, to ACCEPTANCE.
While you're at it, start the process for Jeb in '08. Let's see, here's an original Lib theme, Jeb stole the election.
I'm late to the discussion, but: Greg Palast is a wack job. His evidence is flimsy, he doesn't properly credit his sources (almost everything he writes has been reported elsewhere, he just puts a bogus spin on things), and he's an arrogant self-serving blow-hard.
The left needs to wake up to Palast madness. He's a nut.
He's still angry because he's the kind of rapist who wants you to tell him you enjoyed it afterwards.
Bu$hCo may bomb everyone else into submission, but here we have a long tradition of knowing how to hide behind the trees and shoot redcoats.
We run underground railroads.
We don't accept. We don't surrender. We don't fight the battle on the redcoat's terms.
We will overcome.
That was EXECTLY why I stopped reading my email for three days, then erased everything from my aunt and cousin. However, I couldn't escape them without turning off IM. So listen to me, people: SHUT UP ABOUT THE VOTING FRAUD. It makes you ridiculous and desperate.
There's something else going on: our insistence on finding a winner NOW. We expect the results too quickly, we won't wait.
It has occurred to many that the concession and declaration of victory have no force in law. It is the individual state assertions of the results and the subsequent meeting of the electors.
So let's slowly train people to wait for the result, then we will have the time to count it properly.
To Sarah: no, because we owe it to the children and the world. Not ourselves, but to them. Rolling over again will not help. However, that said, I invested in crashes and inflation, to prepare for a w victory. After all, I saw the cooking in 2002, and wasn't naive about Rove following rules, though I voted for Kerry, I bet the otherway with my money 
SHUT UP ABOUT THE VOTING FRAUD.
We don't need to shut up about it--but we need to move forward to put in place federal law to at the very least have a verifiable paper trail.
SHUT UP ABOUT THE VOTING FRAUD
There's a psychological term for this behavior, but it escapes me at the moment. The poster is uncomfortable with what is being said, so he/she/it tries to drown out the uncomfortable feelings by thowing a tantrum.
Your country isn't as honest as you might have hoped. Deal with it.
Yes, Atrios.
After all, Bush said he won. The media agreed. We can ignore the documented vote supression efforts, documented dirty tricks, and documents vote irregularities and just move on. We should be united. And definitiely more moral. We weren't moral enough.
We can leave the investigating to a few marginalized organizations and individuals, and not support them unless they prove their worth to us. Why should we help get their word out, or encourage them the way we helped candidates? Why, if we ally ourselves with such silly groups, people might think we're weird. After all, Bush won fair and square, and we are more conservative now.
Sure, there is documented evidence of votes not being counted, and overcounted, and supressed, and delayed, but there was no election fraud (at least I haven't seen a story about it on CNN, and they would tell me, right?)
It wasn't that the election was stolen... it was just that certain votes were. How silly of me to get them confused.
I plan to do nothing, since the system works so well. Unless it doesn't. Then I'll spring to action. But this voting thing isn't really important... we should concentrate on the issues that come up for vote by those we voted for, even though many lost for some odd reason.
We don't need to work on the voting part, because once we lose all power, we'll still have a great agenda.
More O'Reilly witticisms, Atrios!
sarah and lulu -
Amen for thinking Libs - instead of crying over spilled milk, spend your time making sure it doesn't spill next time.
Jeb in '08.
huh, I've yet to see compelling evidence that Bush won, yet that's what's been screamed at me in the media.
There was massive vote fraud, so fuckin A I'm going to scream Kerry Won.
I don't know what the legal punishment is for perpetrating voting fraud, but it should be on the level of treason IMO. Maybe not the death penalty, but certainly 20 real years in the slammer. This is arguably the worst possible crime in a democracy.
Another thing: I have no illusions about an effective investigation happening here, even if it looks to all the world like there were shenanigans. This is the current state of things in the US, and I'm getting real tired of banging my head against it.
Anyone here read Zinn? The electoral college, indeed our entire system of "representational" government, was set up to keep the rich people rich and to supress uprisings of the poor, who wanted their fair share after fighting the British (and often not getting the pay promised for doing so).
.
fielding mellish is the epitome of the problem we face.
look at the numbers he says. the real story is racism he says. again, he has it figured out, he just crunches the numbers and it points what tinfoil loonies we all are.
let me be the first to tell you fielding mellish because i'm sure you've never hear this before: you are not nearly as smart or clever as you think you are. these guys laugh at reasonable ones like you. you are their best friend while you think you are their worst nightmare.
i don't give a flying f what the numbers say. our system of voting is f'ed up. we tried reasonable. we tried to tell the media 'ummm, it's not a real good idea that partisans are election officials in many battleground states and that an important player in voting machines has said that he will do whatever is in his power to deliver ohio to bush'.
again, i ask, have any of you actually been in a fight? a real one, not a screaming match with your roommate in college, an actual fight where the f'er wanted to beat your head in and you wanted to in turn. if not, maybe politics isn't for you. if so, maybe you'll start to realize that these f'ers want to bash our heads in and will do whatever it takes to do it and the only answer is to kick their ass first.
stop acting like lawyers. start acting like patriots.
Well tell me - what would constitute proof to you?
What kind of proof does it take to prove election vote fraud? hmmmn?
There is so much proof available that I am convinced you are a coward.
This is why I hate liberals. Folks. don't ever trust a liberal to watch your back.
Man, you pukes are too funny. Haven't you figured it out?? The reason you lost the election is because YOU LOST THE ELECTION!! More people trust the Republicans and like their policies. More people voted Republican!!
Change your message or Die, to paraphrase your idol, Puff-Dongy or whatever he calls himself these days.
We want this throughly discussed and investigated. Why are you so upset by that???? why are you working so hard to shoot us down those who are convinced of voter fraud?
Methinks thou doth protest too much
The basic premise that we have operated under for the past 4 years has been that Bush and the neocons hijacked America in 2000. Whether Bush barely won or Kerry barely won, the premise that Bush did not represent a significant portion of America was proven to be incorrect on 02-Nov-04.
There is no other reality than to face the truth that America is not the country we thought it was. And, there is nothing to “do about it”. George Bush is what America has become; he represents the true nature of a majority of the American electorate: self-centered, weak, dull; they have not the strength or intelligence to live up to the promise of America.
As one of the people who sent Atrios a list, I feel compelled to share it at least with the message section.
Go to the Board of Elections in Cuyahoga County, OH:
http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/
BOE...entresults1.htm
Here are a few of the discrepancies
Bay Village: 13,710 registered voters; 18,663 ballots cast
Beachwood: 9,943 registered voters; 13,939 ballots cast
Bedford: 9,942 registered voters; 14,465 ballots cast
Bedford Heights: 8,142 registered voters; 13,512 ballots cast
Brooklyn: 8,016 registered voters; 12,303 ballots cast
Brooklyn Heights: 1,144 registered voters; 1,869 ballots cast
Chagrin Falls (VIL): 3,557 registered voters; 4,860 ballots cast
Cuyahoga Heights: 570 registered voters; 1,382 ballots cast
Fairview Park: 13,342 registered voters; 18,472 ballots cast
Highland Hills: 760 registered voters; 8,822 ballots cast (ELEVEN TIMES more votes than voters!)
Independence: 5,735 registered voters; 6,226 ballots cast
Mayfield (VIL): 2,764 registered voters; 3,145 ballots cast
Middleburg Heights: 12,173 registered voters; 14,854 ballots cast
North Olmsted: 25,794 registered voters; 25,887 ballots cast
Oakwood (VIL): 2,746 registered voters; 7,099 ballots cast
Olmsted Falls: 6,538 registered voters; 7,328 ballots cast
Pepper Pike: 5,131 registered voters; 6,479 ballots cast
Rocky River: 16,600 registered voters; 20,070 ballots cast
Solon (Ward 6): 2,292 registered voters; 4,300 ballots cast
South Euclid: 16,902 registered voters; 16,917 ballots cast
Strongsville (Ward 3): 7,806 registered voters; 12,108 ballots cast
University Heights: 10,072 registered voters; 11,982 ballots cast
Warrensville Heights: 10,562 registered voters; 15,039 ballots cast
Woodmere (VIL): 558 registered voters; 8,854 ballots cast (SIXTEEN TIMES! Busy voters, eh?)
And before I'm accused of rank partisanship, note that Cuyahoga went Kerry by 2:1. The point: WHETHER THROUGH MALICE OR MALFUNCTION, THE SYSTEM REQUIRES URGENT ATTENTION.
As one of the people who sent Atrios a list, I feel compelled to share it at least with the message section.
Go to the Board of Elections in Cuyahoga County, OH:
http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/
BOE...entresults1.htm
Here are a few of the discrepancies
Bay Village: 13,710 registered voters; 18,663 ballots cast
Beachwood: 9,943 registered voters; 13,939 ballots cast
Bedford: 9,942 registered voters; 14,465 ballots cast
Bedford Heights: 8,142 registered voters; 13,512 ballots cast
Brooklyn: 8,016 registered voters; 12,303 ballots cast
Brooklyn Heights: 1,144 registered voters; 1,869 ballots cast
Chagrin Falls (VIL): 3,557 registered voters; 4,860 ballots cast
Cuyahoga Heights: 570 registered voters; 1,382 ballots cast
Fairview Park: 13,342 registered voters; 18,472 ballots cast
Highland Hills: 760 registered voters; 8,822 ballots cast (ELEVEN TIMES more votes than voters!)
Independence: 5,735 registered voters; 6,226 ballots cast
Mayfield (VIL): 2,764 registered voters; 3,145 ballots cast
Middleburg Heights: 12,173 registered voters; 14,854 ballots cast
North Olmsted: 25,794 registered voters; 25,887 ballots cast
Oakwood (VIL): 2,746 registered voters; 7,099 ballots cast
Olmsted Falls: 6,538 registered voters; 7,328 ballots cast
Pepper Pike: 5,131 registered voters; 6,479 ballots cast
Rocky River: 16,600 registered voters; 20,070 ballots cast
Solon (Ward 6): 2,292 registered voters; 4,300 ballots cast
South Euclid: 16,902 registered voters; 16,917 ballots cast
Strongsville (Ward 3): 7,806 registered voters; 12,108 ballots cast
University Heights: 10,072 registered voters; 11,982 ballots cast
Warrensville Heights: 10,562 registered voters; 15,039 ballots cast
Woodmere (VIL): 558 registered voters; 8,854 ballots cast (SIXTEEN TIMES! Busy voters, eh?)
And before I'm accused of rank partisanship, note that Cuyahoga went Kerry by 2:1. The point: WHETHER THROUGH MALICE OR MALFUNCTION, THE SYSTEM REQUIRES URGENT ATTENTION.
As one of the people who sent Atrios a list, I feel compelled to share it at least with the message section.
Go to the Board of Elections in Cuyahoga County, OH:
http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/
BOE...entresults1.htm
Here are a few of the discrepancies
Bay Village: 13,710 registered voters; 18,663 ballots cast
Beachwood: 9,943 registered voters; 13,939 ballots cast
Bedford: 9,942 registered voters; 14,465 ballots cast
Bedford Heights: 8,142 registered voters; 13,512 ballots cast
Brooklyn: 8,016 registered voters; 12,303 ballots cast
Brooklyn Heights: 1,144 registered voters; 1,869 ballots cast
Chagrin Falls (VIL): 3,557 registered voters; 4,860 ballots cast
Cuyahoga Heights: 570 registered voters; 1,382 ballots cast
Fairview Park: 13,342 registered voters; 18,472 ballots cast
Highland Hills: 760 registered voters; 8,822 ballots cast (ELEVEN TIMES more votes than voters!)
Independence: 5,735 registered voters; 6,226 ballots cast
Mayfield (VIL): 2,764 registered voters; 3,145 ballots cast
Middleburg Heights: 12,173 registered voters; 14,854 ballots cast
North Olmsted: 25,794 registered voters; 25,887 ballots cast
Oakwood (VIL): 2,746 registered voters; 7,099 ballots cast
Olmsted Falls: 6,538 registered voters; 7,328 ballots cast
Pepper Pike: 5,131 registered voters; 6,479 ballots cast
Rocky River: 16,600 registered voters; 20,070 ballots cast
Solon (Ward 6): 2,292 registered voters; 4,300 ballots cast
South Euclid: 16,902 registered voters; 16,917 ballots cast
Strongsville (Ward 3): 7,806 registered voters; 12,108 ballots cast
University Heights: 10,072 registered voters; 11,982 ballots cast
Warrensville Heights: 10,562 registered voters; 15,039 ballots cast
Woodmere (VIL): 558 registered voters; 8,854 ballots cast (SIXTEEN TIMES! Busy voters, eh?)
And before I'm accused of rank partisanship, note that Cuyahoga went Kerry by 2:1. The point: WHETHER THROUGH MALICE OR MALFUNCTION, THE SYSTEM REQUIRES URGENT ATTENTION.
DADDY,
I
CAN'T
LIVE
WITH
THE
GUILT
AND
SHAME
!
!
As one of the people who sent Atrios a list, I feel compelled to share it at least with the message section.
Go to the Board of Elections in Cuyahoga County, OH:
http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/
BOE...entresults1.htm
Here are a few of the discrepancies
Bay Village: 13,710 registered voters; 18,663 ballots cast
Beachwood: 9,943 registered voters; 13,939 ballots cast
Bedford: 9,942 registered voters; 14,465 ballots cast
Bedford Heights: 8,142 registered voters; 13,512 ballots cast
Brooklyn: 8,016 registered voters; 12,303 ballots cast
Brooklyn Heights: 1,144 registered voters; 1,869 ballots cast
Chagrin Falls (VIL): 3,557 registered voters; 4,860 ballots cast
Cuyahoga Heights: 570 registered voters; 1,382 ballots cast
Fairview Park: 13,342 registered voters; 18,472 ballots cast
Highland Hills: 760 registered voters; 8,822 ballots cast (ELEVEN TIMES more votes than voters!)
Independence: 5,735 registered voters; 6,226 ballots cast
Mayfield (VIL): 2,764 registered voters; 3,145 ballots cast
Middleburg Heights: 12,173 registered voters; 14,854 ballots cast
North Olmsted: 25,794 registered voters; 25,887 ballots cast
Oakwood (VIL): 2,746 registered voters; 7,099 ballots cast
Olmsted Falls: 6,538 registered voters; 7,328 ballots cast
Pepper Pike: 5,131 registered voters; 6,479 ballots cast
Rocky River: 16,600 registered voters; 20,070 ballots cast
Solon (Ward 6): 2,292 registered voters; 4,300 ballots cast
South Euclid: 16,902 registered voters; 16,917 ballots cast
Strongsville (Ward 3): 7,806 registered voters; 12,108 ballots cast
University Heights: 10,072 registered voters; 11,982 ballots cast
Warrensville Heights: 10,562 registered voters; 15,039 ballots cast
Woodmere (VIL): 558 registered voters; 8,854 ballots cast (SIXTEEN TIMES! Busy voters, eh?)
And before I'm accused of rank partisanship, note that Cuyahoga went Kerry by 2:1. The point: WHETHER THROUGH MALICE OR MALFUNCTION, THE SYSTEM REQUIRES URGENT ATTENTION.
Could we please take the word "shrill" out of the liberal dictionary? Could we please listen to everybody, just for a little while, while we sort this out?
Clearly, people have serious and significant concerns about the possibility that a variety of techniques from voter supression to outright fraud have altered the outcome of this election.
The truth is that when people are afraid, they sound shrill. Atrios, if your best friend fell down a well, do you really think the first thing you'd say to potential rescuers would be "I say, fellows, it appears to me that we may need to mount a bit of a rescue effort, at your earliest convenience, of course." Of course not. Your perception would be that your friend is in danger, and that would affect your behavior. Give people a break.
As one of the people who sent Atrios a list, I feel compelled to share it at least with the message section.
Go to the Board of Elections in Cuyahoga County, OH:
http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/
BOE...entresults1.htm
Here are a few of the discrepancies
Bay Village: 13,710 registered voters; 18,663 ballots cast
Beachwood: 9,943 registered voters; 13,939 ballots cast
Bedford: 9,942 registered voters; 14,465 ballots cast
Bedford Heights: 8,142 registered voters; 13,512 ballots cast
Brooklyn: 8,016 registered voters; 12,303 ballots cast
Brooklyn Heights: 1,144 registered voters; 1,869 ballots cast
Chagrin Falls (VIL): 3,557 registered voters; 4,860 ballots cast
Cuyahoga Heights: 570 registered voters; 1,382 ballots cast
Fairview Park: 13,342 registered voters; 18,472 ballots cast
Highland Hills: 760 registered voters; 8,822 ballots cast (ELEVEN TIMES more votes than voters!)
Independence: 5,735 registered voters; 6,226 ballots cast
Mayfield (VIL): 2,764 registered voters; 3,145 ballots cast
Middleburg Heights: 12,173 registered voters; 14,854 ballots cast
North Olmsted: 25,794 registered voters; 25,887 ballots cast
Oakwood (VIL): 2,746 registered voters; 7,099 ballots cast
Olmsted Falls: 6,538 registered voters; 7,328 ballots cast
Pepper Pike: 5,131 registered voters; 6,479 ballots cast
Rocky River: 16,600 registered voters; 20,070 ballots cast
Solon (Ward 6): 2,292 registered voters; 4,300 ballots cast
South Euclid: 16,902 registered voters; 16,917 ballots cast
Strongsville (Ward 3): 7,806 registered voters; 12,108 ballots cast
University Heights: 10,072 registered voters; 11,982 ballots cast
Warrensville Heights: 10,562 registered voters; 15,039 ballots cast
Woodmere (VIL): 558 registered voters; 8,854 ballots cast (SIXTEEN TIMES! Busy voters, eh?)
And before I'm accused of rank partisanship, note that Cuyahoga went Kerry by 2:1. The point: WHETHER THROUGH MALICE OR MALFUNCTION, THE SYSTEM REQUIRES URGENT ATTENTION.
The question of how the votes get counted is much more important than who wins.
the hell?
My sincerest apologies for the triple post. It was entirely unintentional.
Hee Hee!
Looks more like a Quintuple post Colin.
Colin Dos -
Wishful thinking - I went over to the site, and the first inspection revealed the error. The number for each district is the sum of all the wards. The numbers total for the registered, but they don't add up for the ballots cast.
Bay Village - 13710 reg
- 8715 cast
63.56 % turnout.
Please tell me you're not that gullible. Try again.
Jeb in '08.
I can't agree with you more. In addition, by allowing fraud to have taken place, we are all partially responsible for this presumed voting theft.
Until there is a smoking gun, let's change the system to ensure every vote is counted. Legislate to get rid of black box voting machines without a paper trail.
William
Thanks for saying that.
Digby linked to you and had more to say on the topic.
I honestly didn't realize the popular vote was three million in favor of Bush. That does put the charges of tampering in perspective.
Mark already made the point earlier in the thread, but the argument needs to be taken a step further.
Without conspiracy theories, there is a reduced incentive to correct the flaws in the election system. HAVA would not have been passed in Congress had there not been as much bitter resentment after the 2000 elections, and the enduring opinion held by a significant segment of the electorate that the results were illegitimate. Even so, reform measures died as soon as this disconsolated group could be slandered as unpatriotic in the wake of 9/11. It is striking that even the modest proposals for voter-verified paper ballots in Congress evolved from bipartisan support to bipartisan obstruction (thanks to Dodd and McConnel in the Senate, at least).
It isn't obvious yet that having an overhwelming number of voters accept the legitimacy of an election is a public good that repays dividends. Allowing the mere appearance of irregularity in voting or counting to go unchecked is like letting an unattended, festering wound devolve into gangrene. This need not happen, especially since it is relatively easy to undertake rudimentary reviews of voting and careful counting. The allegedly "tin-foil" crowd currently voicing legitimate concerns with unauditable voting is not as impervious to reason as the Fox news zombies. But we'll be well on our way to becoming part of the latter group if we refuse to ask the simple and necessary questions.
You're absolutely right, and that's the problem with a paperless election. Without a verifiable record, you're screwed.
Actually, without a verifiable record, everyone's screwed.
Nobody can prove who won the election.
Which is to say, nobody can prove that Bush won the election.
Without some sort of documentation to back up these results, there is no conclusion but that the election ended without an actual winner; the media just picked someone and went with that, and it's unclear whether the counting still going on will agree with that, or whether it would matter if the result turns out to be different than the pre-scripted Hollywood ending.
So what the fuck? The ship of state has run aground, and it looks like they're going to continue to allow the retarded cabin boy to play with the ship's wheel, because it entertains him so to pretend that he's in charge...
Upon further analysis. I worked on the Kerry campaign in WI. We did a massive GOTV in WI. The result was WI went Kerry and the turnout was the 2nd highest in the country--72%. Now the Republicans did big turnout efforts in their strong states like Texas in order to drive up the popular vote and hence have the "mandate". Meantime in Democrats strongholds like NY and CA almost nothing was done by the Dems. If there had been the GOTV efforts in these states the Repub popular vote margin would have been wiped out and Bush would NOT have won the popular vote! People need to look at this and its ramifications. WE are not outnumbered and we can win but need to work harder, EVERYWHERE.
It's funny that Atrios is using the term "shrill" to describe the email he received. Though I did not send a shrill email, I was wondering why Atrios and DailyKos (on the front page) were ignoring the stories bubbling up from the grassroots. The talk about 2006 and 2008 seemed premature to me and smacked of DNC establishment type thinking, such as when prominent members of the party (Ed Rendell et al) bought into the Republican "sore loserman" meme in 2000.
Keith Olbermann does a nice job of laying out what blogs can do to advance the election fraud story. Atrios' reaction to the emails on election fraud and his reference to something big in the offing has led me to think about the cooption of blogs into the party infrastructure. Maybe the phase of muckraking has passed, and in fact passed when prominent bloggers also became party fundraisers.
Perhaps we wouldn't have to yell so loudly, and shrilly, if our "leaders" would call for an investigation. Are you calling for an investigation, Atrios? Why haven't you linked to any relavent sites? Have ya seen the numbers? You don't think 3 million votes can be manufactured? Then you don't understand the vulnerabilities of e-voting.
Troll:
Bay Village - 13710 reg
- 8715 cast
63.56 % turnout.
Registered voters adds up, yes. Total ballots cast does not. There's a 10,000 vote discrepancy between the ballots cast in the wards and the total "ballots cast" in that area.
"There's never anything wrong with raising questions. There is something wrong with believing you have answers to those questions that are not supported by the evidence."
Ding ding! We have a winner.
I seem to remember a situation a year or two ago when President Bush insited there were illegal WMDs in Iraq...despite the evidence.
Evidence before action.
Or perhaps I should say: "Evidence before accusation."
From the Daily Kos.
[i]Thing is, we don't have enough information to make any determinations yet. And by crying wolf too soon, and too often, no one would believe us if solid evidence does present itself.[/i]
Go read it.
http://www.dailykos.com/
A message from konopelli
to the extent that Bush's junta continues to act in disregard for custom,
civilization, and law, and we either actively (the scumsuckers on the right)
or passively (those on the left who want to refrain from the nastiness of
calling these fundie/fascist religious wackjobs "traitors"), and persist in
believing that all it'll take to overthrow 'em is a little (or even a LOT)
of community building.
I hate to be the one to repeat this, because it doesn't help my credibility,
I'm sure, but:
There will be no retaking of this country by the formerly revered liberal
values of tolerance, justice, and equity WITHOUT first adequately disposing
of the fascist fucktards, their minions and lickspittles, and their legions
of moronic co-conspiritors.
They now have reason to hate us, not for our freedoms, but for the waste of
them. If we couldn't depose even this little, simpering, scampering simian
wannabe, and his crew of mindless rabble and bullying thugs, we have no
right to expect respect, rather than vilification, in the worlds eyes...
Ok- here's where I sit right now. The situation is : Olbermann (MSNBC Countdown) did a pretty sympathetic story regading FL counties that went overwhelmingly Bush last night. Overwhelming like: more votes for Chimpy than registered voters in county. The first most obvious "fraud". Nightline will be doing a story on "those lefty folks that think the election was stolen" tonight. I'm betting it won't be sympathetic at all. And since Nightline hits a bigger audience and is more respected- for no good reason- than Keith, we have the rest of today to get unframed unbiased attention on the discrepancies.
The QUESTION: How do we get some action and pressure applied? I know 6 Dem. cong. members have formally asked the GAO to investigate the vote count. A couple of DAs in OH appear to be interested in what happened in their counties. There's plenty of "Atrios/Kos aren't doing anything" wailing in the blogs- but no one has suggested a course of action. We gots only a sliver of time before this battle is joined or discounted.
The only constructive action I have seen suggested is this from the editorial comments in the bluelemur article: "What everyone should do is call the National Election Pool, the AP, and CNN and demand they release exit polls by county."
Is this at least a start? Can we move on it?
Any idea on where to find specific numbers/addresses for above media outlets? By specific I mean, not the general front-end email addresses that their websites will give?
I think this article presents a reasonable case without jumping to conclusions.
What has been disappointing about Atrios, and other popular blogs, including Kos, is they are sitting back while others do the hard work of determining wether there is some credence to this. I would say there is something wrong here, when Olbermann of MSNBC beats Atrios and Kos to the punch.
Rabid partisans are counting the votes -- electronic, absentee, provisional -- no checks and balance here, folks. Election REFORM anyone?
The ship of state has run aground, and it looks like they're going to continue to allow the retarded cabin boy to play with the ship's wheel, because it entertains him so to pretend that he's in charge...
Seraphiel
Perhaps it is what they want it to seem to be- see my links regarding paternity and patronage above.
And 3 million popular votes for Bu$hCo, lightly? Digby dug Clark, who has been employed by Soros.
Let's all jump on the bandwagon- let's hate those nasty tricksy NeoCons, who hate us nasty tricksy libruls.
Wheels spinning 'round...
Media Matters pays the board here; and Soros, who owns a share of Carlyle as big as Bu$hCo's, feeds Media Matters kitty.
Now you know the why of a lot of what has happened.
I think Atrios' diary on this topic displays the reason the Democratic Party will always lose.
Sane, reasonable, moderate political parties have no chance in America. The media left that shit behind long ago, as did the GOP. And both have left the Dems behind as well.
Kerry won! Kerry Won!
OK Troll, explain Highland Hills.
Colin Dos -
Once again, go back to Math class. The numbers are reported at the ward level, and then summed up to the county. Add the wards, and disregard the incorrect summation. If you can't see this, GOD help you.
Jeb in '08.
Columbus, Ohio sit-in proposed:
http://tinyurl.com/59yxb
Force an audit!
Stand naked as an American, having discarded all the idealogical labels and the baggage they entail. Then ask yourself this simple qiestion:
Can our country continue with this question hanging in the air? Without a full, complete, incisive and honorable investigation into this matter. Do you want to live in a country that DOESN'T take up this gauntlet, on behalf of its citizens?
Well, do you? Do you?
The American Bargain demands no less.
-T.
Scheisskopf... now that's funny.
Why were the early exit polls right?
What are you talking about? early exit polls had kerry winning Virginia, for cryin out loud.
First off, dude, the election was stolen.
Second, someone asked if the "Dems" will start pushing for paper receipts some time after the election so it won't look like sour grapes.
Yo, dude, HR 2239. Okay? The "Dems" (actually, Representative Rush Holt, NJ-12th) have been pushing for it for some time, and the Reps sat on it and delayed it.
Columbus, Ohio sit-in proposed:
Columbus, Ohio drive by the Ashcroft Justice Department to take photographs to match names with faces...
What I heard from Atrios:
Unless the corporate media tells us there was vote fraud and unless the compromised Democrats like Kerry come out and say something, we should just accept the fact that we no longer live in a free country with fair elections.
FUCK YOU!
i would have thought you get worse mail than that.
We are nothing. We mean nothing. We are all losers and we should all just tuck our tails between our legs and go home and sulk. Then tomorrow we can get up and go to work like good little boys and girls and shut up and do what we are told.
Now there's our agenda under the New United States of America. So shut up and take it and be happy.
Oh what's that you say??????
You don't think so?
Well then put your money where your mouth is and let's see what everyone is willing to sacrifice and do to take back their country.
AH, nothing again. Talk is cheap my friends. Actions speak louder than words.
AH, nothing again.
Get up and fight for what is ours. John Kerry won this election and "WE THE PEOPLE" will decide if he is sworn in as our next president, but only if "WE THE PEOPLE" are willing to fight for our rights.
Everyone right now, everyone let's do it now. Let's not stop until we have our justice. Fuck the wingers who don't like it or who charge us with being sore losers or whatever they pull out of their asses to accuse us of. THIS MAY BE OUR LAST CHANCE.
Everyone write and/or call your local media and your congressman/senator/local representative/governor. Get everyone on notice that we will have our justice and we will not settle for anything short of that. If all this fails then we must be prepared to take further actions in the form of protest and strikes. We will need to sacrifice but we must be willing to go that route if necessary.
To the people of OHIO and FLORIDA we are looking to you to be the base of this revolution. You of all the people in this country have the most legitmate reasons to start this uprising and we are all going to get together and make this happen now.
How I Stole Your Electio
The first thing I did to steal your election was to make friends with ALL the manufacturers of the Electronic Voting Machines. They were really nice, especially Diebold who gave me $600,000 for my campaign.
http://nuclearfree.lynx.co.nz/st...nz/
stealing.htm
Next, I had my attack dog, Karl Rove, convince these companies to either alter the vote totals on the central tabulator machines (PCs using Remote Access Server -- RAS), or reprogram (via a downloadable software patch) the voting machines themselves so that they would give the advantage to ME! Isn't America great? A little money and some religious zealotry goes a long, long way. Oh, the religious zealotry thing? That's just cover. I'm not really a Christian -- or at least I don't act like one. Anyway, I digress.
http://www.ejfi.org/Voting/Votin...ting-
25.htm#rig
Did you ever hear the media complaining about how inaccurate the exit polls were in prior elections? No. That's because they ARE accurate. But this election, exit polls showed Kerry WAY ahead. No problem. My buddies rigged the machines (and all they needed to do was rig it in one state, Ohio, but they took care of atleast Florida too) not only to make me squeak by in the important battleground states, like Florida and Ohio, but they also made sure that when I did get a state that I was expected to win, the margin was HUGE so that my "popular" vote would make it look like I had a mandate.
So let's recap how the vote thing worked again. Let's say we didn't want it to look suspicious by taking states that Kerry would have won (except for Ohio and Florida). So we let him win there, but in order once again to boost the "popular" vote, we bring my vote tallies RIGHT UP NEXT to Kerry's, to jack up the "popular" vote as much as possible, even if I didn't win the state.
Then, with states like North Carolina, we know we're going to steal the state anyway (at least according to what the exit polls were telling everyone.... and according to the long, long lines of new voters were telling everyone ... because we all know most of those people were voting for Kerry, not the status quo), so we just jack the crap out of the vote total to REALLY stuff a crapload of "popular" votes in my pocket. You see, this way I can get on the TV and declare that I have a "mandate" and that I'm going to "cash in" on my political "capital".
Here's a chart to show you what I mean. Take special note of how the electronic voting machine totals compare to the paper ballot totals. And see what I mean about North Carolina? http://www.bandsagainstbush.org/...s/
exit_poll.gif
Look folks, if yo
How I Stole Your Election | Email | Homepage | 11.09.04 - 2:44 pm | #
Look folks, if you really want me out, first you're going to have to impeach me. But you know what, if you don't have verifiable paper trails at the polls like these folks recommend ( http://openvotingconsortium.org/ ), and if you don't
I don't usually comment on websites, but I just have to say something here about this whole fraud/not fraud thing. I hear people basically saying that until there is absolute proof, no one's going to listen, so just shut up aout it. Get ovet it. Move on. As someone said earlier, "without proof, that's all tinfoil hat stuff." Good work, guys. Dismiss the evidence, dismiss everything, and scold all of us who dare to express our feelings. With this attitude, we'll have this thing all figured out by 2083.
While we don't have proof, we do have evidence. Plenty of evidence. Why are people so quick to dismiss evidence? Is it fear? Denial?
I'm just wondering, where is the fight? Are we really that beat? Are we really so scared of republicans that we make up excuses not to stand up to them?
I hate to say it, but I'm getting really fed up with democrats. Where I'm from (which is, incidentally, the Deep South) Democrats are passionate and have a fire in their belly and want to fight to make this country better. But what I'm seeing lately is that the majority of democrats seem to have replaced passion with calm, and frankly boring, reason. It's fine to be reasonable - we should be reasonable - but please, let's not loose our passion. Republicans are passionate, and people respond to that. It's a good feeling, and a powerful feeling, and it inspires people to jump up and yell "me too!" at the top of their lungs. I think intensity moves people, and we definitely need to move people.
I feel passionate about what's going on with these election "problems," and I have plenty of reasons to feel that way. Please, don't tell me I'm being a bad child because I care. Personally, I like to think that I'm a good democrat because I care.
There. I feel better now. Thanks for listening.
I don't usually comment on websites, but I just have to say something here about this whole fraud/not fraud thing. I hear people basically saying that until there is absolute proof, no one's going to listen, so just shut up aout it. Get ovet it. Move on. As someone said earlier, "without proof, that's all tinfoil hat stuff." Good work, guys. Dismiss the evidence, dismiss everything, and scold all of us who dare to express our feelings. With this attitude, we'll have this thing all figured out by 2083.
While we don't have proof, we do have evidence. Plenty of evidence. Why are people so quick to dismiss evidence? Is it fear? Denial?
I'm just wondering, where is the fight? Are we really that beat? Are we really so scared of republicans that we make up excuses not to stand up to them?
I hate to say it, but I'm getting really fed up with democrats. Where I'm from (which is, incidentally, the Deep South) Democrats are passionate and have a fire in their belly and want to fight to make this country better. But what I'm seeing lately is that the majority of democrats seem to have replaced passion with calm, and frankly boring, reason. It's fine to be reasonable - we should be reasonable - but please, let's not loose our passion. Republicans are passionate, and people respond to that. It's a good feeling, and a powerful feeling, and it inspires people to jump up and yell "me too!" at the top of their lungs. I think intensity moves people, and we definitely need to move people.
I feel passionate about what's going on with these election "problems," and I have plenty of reasons to feel that way. Please, don't tell me I'm being a bad child because I care. Personally, I like to think that I'm a good democrat because I care.
There. I feel better now. Thanks for listening.
I agree with the feeling of your article, especially since even my closest liberal friends these days are thinking of me more and more as a crackpot conspiracy theorist with every article and statistic I send them about this "unusual" election.
I think those of us who do go around chanting "KERRY WON" would be more inclined to accept these "irregularites" as statistical errors and computer malfunctions had the 2000 election debacle not taken place and had the CEO of Diebold not promised to "deliver" Ohio to Bush on election day.
I still find these "irregularities" very troubling. I'm still waiting to see one bit of evidence to demonstrate that any of these electronic snafus gave even one illegal vote to Kerry.
To Frenchie. BradBlog is keeping a list. Some potential fraud examples, but don't forget the jim crow activities prior to the election also:
http://www.bradfriedman.com/BradBlog/
we had a guy with fire in the belly. pathetic that fellows dems were frightened by that passion. they thought a military background was a magic silver bullet. they thought a resume could win us elections. we'll see in '08 if dems insist on repeating that mistake.
Sorry, my comment seems to have been posted twice. How embarrassing. I am a stranger in the land of the internets.
See also Olberman on MSNBC. Question, build a case. Don't make up accusations by jumping to conclusions! Blog responsibly; use original, boring citations. Bring honest, sophisticated pressure. DON'T FORGET to get stats like provisionals, etc, when you parse those funky looking lists, and to ASK the elections department what the numbers are intended to mean. Don't mess up the territory with the map when looking for proof! A bad list on a web site may just be a badly designed, hard-to-understand list. It may not be evidence of anything else beyond that. Please.
Thank you Atrios. For months we've been saying "It's the stupidity, stupid."
Let's not become the enemy. Paranoia is not your pal without a lot of skepticism to keep it in check and on point.
I've considered myself as skeptical as Atrios in all of this, but I'm looking through the data now because certain things have thrown up red flags for me. Looking at the Cuyahoga County data that is posted online (http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/BOE/results/
currentresults1.htm), if you add up the ballots cast for each full precinct (not each individual ward, of course, as they are subsets of the main precinct), you'll see that the total number of 'ballots cast' in the county totals 864,622, while the votes for Bush, Kerry, and others that the county is officially reporting is only 652,381.
I'll be crunching these numbers tonight and will try to get as much data as I can to see what happened there. My co-bloggers and I work in software and software security, so as you can imagine, we're not too surprised to see things not adding up, but we're not sure a hacker, or even a company like Diebold, could've pulled off something without drawing more attention than this. Feel free to send me an email if you have relevant info, especially voting results from other Ohio counties that I can parse through.
Thanks,
thehim
As I recall, it works something like this. A complaint is made, usually to a law enforcement agency: police, fbi, sheriff. If accepted, an investigation is undertaken, and normally, this is where proof or lack thereof surfaces. If sufficient proof (read probable cause) pointing to a penal violation exists in the judgment of the prosecutor, a grand jury is empanelled, and either an indictment issues, or a no-bill ends the matter.
The relevant questions to me are, (1) who has standing to file a complaint? A private citizen? An association? A governmental agency? (2) Does the Voting Rights Act pre-empt any state remedies?
Beyond questionm, messing with the vote is a federal felony.
Finally, it seems to me that there is more than enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that a (perhaps) national fraud took place where Diebold equipment was used. This is not a screeching, conspiracy based statement. It is one based on fact, and one we ignore at our peril.
If all politics is indeed local, we need to identify governing agencies which might be willing to press for an investigation at the federal level, just as many city governing boards have put the skids to the ill-named Patriot Act.
We also need to get these local agencies to outlaw the use of machines that do not leave a paper trail.
Jesus B. Ochoa, El Paso, Texas.
Stolen or not stolen, it's time we accepted the fact that violent revolution is the only way this country can be saved.
(just kidding)
(well, not really)
(ok, maybe I'm kidding just a little bit)
Oh shit, I just realized we are doomed.
A simple 'you are correct, sir' will suffice.
Too bad you have to parse Atrios' comments to find updates. But here they are:
First, Larry Lessig's piece on exit polls, with valuable appended comments; and
Second, a link to the Olbermann clip that has everybody abuzz.
Where are the mainstream bloggers on this? Can't sully their reputations? Cowed like CBS? As much a fan of the efforts of Atrios, Kos, and others, perhaps they believe their prominence places them in an untenable position. Awfully sad, if true.
"His reward? A thread full of shrill, unsubstantiated charges."
His reward? I am SURE that atrios does not do his important work for a social reward less than a restoration of the nation he loves.
As for 'not offering solutions,' Librarian, here's one:
Don't give up the ship!
Instead of post-morteming on FOX/CNN spin (there are more Christians than we knew!!!!), FIGHT.
This is an international blog, with a lot of timezones. Just because I go to bed and work doesn't mean that there are no solutions to be offered, or I'm only trying to offend. I protest this afternoon at our local Federal building/Nat'l cemetary, and I protest again this Friday -- FOREVER, if necessary. I'm sure you're doing something similar.
The main solution is not to flip the blogs back onto less essential issues, and not to parrot the lines of BULLSHIT about the rightwing winning the election.
We won; we are many. Now, what can we do to REMOVE these SecStates, to put broomsticks in the spokes of the Bush machine, to knock the CSPAN crap back down their throats? What can we do to force the newspapers to cover the exit poll issue IN DETAIL, instead of this 'trust us' routine? Etc.
--
"Librarian - you've just had the classic Paul experience."
CA election stolen, Fielding. That ain't no lack of proof. Diebold turns the FED election during this coup, that ain't no suspicion.
"Sad thing is, he cites a lot of beliefs that to him, "prove" that the election must have been stolen and I shared a whole bunch of them - before the election. Before I saw that all the detailed breakdowns showed
Fielding Mellish"
You buy and spread a bunch of fake stats, and you're proud of your turncoating.
I protest. I talk to those kids you think didn't vote for Kerry. They are in danger of losing their lives, and they voted for Kerry AS A BLOC.
Stolen votes, worse is the stolen minds in the blogsphere. You, Fielding, are the very reason why the Dems are as flatulent as old ladies when it comes to fighting the theft of their rights.
--
"When you mention threats, are you speaking of threats made to Kerry (or someone close to him)?"
Kerry is a soldier Senator, a rare category. I do not believe he would withdraw because of threats to him or his family. I believe USPNAC threatened US. If threats to blow up civilians were made, then a tactical retreat would be appropriate.
"We are a LANDSLIDE. Bush is going down, vote or no vote."
"Do you mean via legal means -- indictments?"
Indictments...bullets. It's a spectrum. Treason is not rewarded with passivity by people who have studied history. If at any point the Brits had fought back, Hitler would have been removed from power by his generals. We are on the verge of a mutiny on many levels of our society and our military.
"Also, I'm curious if you know the work of Gene Sharp"--Kate
No, didn't know about that, thanks.
I started protesting 40 long years ago, as a student member of SDS. I am not a big fan of the job, but I am also not going to see my family shot to shit in some foreign war of profit. We will fight, with pitchforks and torches, protest signs and bad manners, anger and FACTS.
And as far as this 'it's atrios' blog' bit, yeah, kudos, but it is also the community of voices that made atrios big in the first place. His shutting off the comments over the weekend was a dire blow to our efforts, and I do not applaud it, though I accept our weaknesses, and instead I BLAME BUSH.
--
"Where are the mainstream bloggers on this?--ethan"
We needed Kerry to administer the Heimlich on a lot of bloggers who are busy swallowing basketballs of lies to prove that even the good can be cheated.
Since he wasn't available, ta-da, guess who has to face the police and the anger of the disturbed masses? Guess who has to make waves on these beloved blogs that are helping save the nation?
You and me, ethan.
--
"Meantime in Democrats strongholds like NY and CA almost nothing was done by the Dems." --Anonymous
Sure thing, butthole. That's why 80 year old ladies were driving complete strangers to the polling places. That's why there were MOBS of Dems going door-to-door for MONTHS.
Hard to tell how many Bushista trolls are pretending to be confused Dems, as usual.
We won a landslide. That means there are more of us than of them. I would have thought that was obvious, but apparently people still think that Bush's lies have worked like a charm.
No threats, no treason, no anthrax, no 380 tons of high-explosives given to terrorists, and no computerized database flipping! What a boring time we are having!
I just saw Paul Wellstone walk by. He was holding his head and muttering.
--
Speaking of recounts, the main page tells me that there are 18 comments in this section, when it actually seems more like 180
"Your emotional level will betray you. In order to make the people and the courts listen, you have to look calm, casual and exude the confidence that tells people you have the facts on your side."
Politics, like a GQ ad. While people die, the appeasers parrot the media-dictated lines.
This is treason. It ain't a beauty contest.
Mealy-mouthed dems aren't getting the job done, even if they have nice haircuts and ascots.
--
Paul | Email | Homepage | 11.09.04 - 5:27 am | #
Look, there are only two ways to solve this.
1 - Court of law
2 - Court of the street
Now your attitude is great for number 2, but in order to win number 1 we have to have all of our ducks in a row, that's how it is. We need to keep the public on our side, even many Kerry supporters that I know believe Bush won, they just think Americans are stupid. You have to realize that public opinion plays into this as well. The GAO is looking into this, there are tons of blogs raising hell as well as grass roots protestors. What do you want, instant results? You can't get instant results with half @$$ proof. At the moment all we have is glitches and errors, until the investigation turns up memos, phone calls or evidence of hacking we don't have a solid case yet. Calm down, use your head, the thinking man wins.
Democrats are going to keep losing until they realize how bad the Republicans are. They will cheat, steal, and even kill if they have to. We already know how well Diebold machines work and that when they mess up it always helps the Republicans.
Who needs proof? All that's needed in civil court is the preponderence of evidence, and ew have that. Even evolution and the big bang are not proven. Instead of calling for people to shut up, you should be calling for investigations so we might find proof of what the evidence (and history) tells us.
Remember Watergate? Enron? Iran Contra? Savings & Loan? These are the same people. Conspiracy is how they work.
Ignoring the evidence we have is just the standard Democrat's way of pussing out.
Where are the mainstream bloggers on this? Can't sully their reputations? Cowed like CBS? As much a fan of the efforts of Atrios, Kos, and others, perhaps they believe their prominence places them in an untenable position. Awfully sad, if true.
ethan
it took about a couple of years for bloggers to even acknowledge the diebold threat on their front pages. the stigma of being accused of delving into tin foil hat territory is like kryptonite to them.
Paul -
Once again, if you're still here:
Gene Sharp founded the Albert Einstein Institution to promote the concept of massive nonviolent resistance in a "nonviolent conflict" to take back regimes from antidemocratic "leaders."
Their website is www.aeinstein.org. If you look at the dropdown menu on the left called "publications" you'll find everything they put out. A number of these pubs are free downloadable PDFs. I'm reading "From Dictatorship to Democracy" and "The Anti-Coup" right now -- while waiting for Sharp's classic 3-volume handbook, "The Politics of Nonviolent Action" as well as the new book, "On Strategic Nonviolent Conflict" by the new president of the institute, Robert Helvey, to arrive in the mail.
Helvey was in the USArmy for 3 decades (IIRC he retired a colonel). He now dedicates his life to teaching oppressed people to wage nonviolent conflict as nonviolent "war," an effort that requires profound strategic/tactical thinking in the service of well-defined democratic objectives. This involves "nonviolent war gaming" to anticipate the reactions of the opponent and to plan for all contingencies. I'm trying to learn, as fast as I can. Email me if you want to hear some thoughts I have about this.
If it be fraud, it is provable, at least in Florida, where the irregularities are on the optical scan ballots, with a paper trail.
If these numbers are accurate:
http://ustogether.org/
Florida_El...da_Election.htm
Then all I want is a hand recount of Lafayette County, where a county of 82.8% registered Democrats voted 74% Bush. It's just over 3,00 votes for that one county, and if those papers show that result, then I'll accept the similar irregularities across Florida (for optical scan counties only). It would take less than three hours.
But maybe that's just too much trouble to keep a democracy.
Let us keep in mind, this may have been going on for years but since 2000, people are eyeing elections with a fine toothed comb. I am in total agreeance the system should be revamped, there should never be any wiggle room for fraud. However, I don't think our politicians (and I mean all, left and right) want elections to be "fair." It's easier to covet the power when the people really have no say and really we don't. We cast our little votes and maybe they're counted or maybe not, but it's just a matter of making us "feel" as though we are part of a democracy.
I don't think we've ever had a true democracy and it was intended that way. The politicians, once they get to a level of power that's called Washington, don't really care about the "little people," all they care about is accumulating more power. At least that's what I think.
I believe we need to continue the good fight but the only way things are going to change is to take career politicians out of the equation. Once it becomes a career and no longer a sense of duty, it gets corrupted.
The question that needs to be anwered is this: If votes were tampered with how would we know? Atrios, please enlighten us on this. You must have answered this question to your own satisfaction given your complacency on the issue.
As a Venezuelan, Atrios' comments resonate deeply. After the Aug 15 Presidential Referendum, those of us who voted to remove the incumbent were taken aback when in less than 24 hours, the OAS and Carter Center certified the election as valid without conducting "hot" audits (matching ballot boxes to electronic voting machines) as had been previously agreed to. Furthermore, we had been confident throughout the day that the Referendum was going our way, based on exit poll results that showed a 60/40 split. So imagine our collective surprise when, at 4AM, the government announced a 60/40 WIN for the President.
Behold the power of Oil. Venezuela has the largest oil reserves outside of the Middle East. The status quo needed to be protected at all costs.
Atrios, you are correct in saying that suspicion does not add up to proof: it is the difference between material and circumstancial evidence, and nothing erodes a serious investigation more than unsubstantiated claims. And in fact, what the Venezuelan opposition did was take two months to amass evidence that the votes had been electronically manipulated. That evidence has now been presented...and met with resounding worldwide silence.
Oil. Repeat. Oil.
It is my fervent desire that those who understand far better than me the vulnerability of electronic voting systems are fighting the good fight with regards to the US elections result. I have been keeping tabs on the story via various excellent blogs as well as blackboxvoting.org, led by the expert Bev Harris. But in today's NYTimes forum commenting on David Brooks column on the so-called Exurbian vote, a savvy writer pointed out that "The Architect" could easily have stolen this election, safe in the knowledge that once called, the results would be hard to revoke because there is nothing more that Americans hate than "sore losers", which therefore takes away from credibility in any challenge.
Call me a disgruntled Venezuelan already burned once this year (I repeat, there is hard evidence of fraud with Diebold machines there). Fool me once...whatever
Kerry, and then Atrios, squandered community energy at critical time. Walking off when the going got tough. To then be obnoxious enough to return and complain about those working on the problem when it mattered highlights the fundamental problem with big D democrats.
They are on the leash, and like it that way.
Here's a prediction for 2006. If electronic vote tabulation is not abolished and recognized as unverifiable and non-transparent, the Repubicans will win tremendous upsets in Democratic strongholds to go on to utilized a filibuster proof Senate.
Wake up..... with these machines/tabulation software in use, the Republic is dead. Long live King George, then Jeb, then some other Republican... If we don't suffer economic collapse first.
Conyers was interviewed on Olberman last night...what a weenie. After saying that we need to improve the accountability of these voting systems in future elections, he demured on the question of the validity of the vote total this time around. So let's see....the voting system isn't valid, but the results of the election are OK. I can imagine what Delay would say if the shoe were on the other foot.
The Dems are weak. Begging the Repubican majority to play fair is a losers game. They need to get tough and go to the mat for genuine democracy..one man, one vote, all votes counted.
He also could have said that the losing party in any election has to have confidence that the system is fair. After a while, if the popular will of the people is subverted by what appears to be nefarious means, they may come to the conclusion that peaceful change is impossible. This would be disastrous.
Here's a prediction for 2006. If electronic vote tabulation is not abolished and recognized as unverifiable and non-transparent, the Repubicans will win tremendous upsets in Democratic strongholds to go on to utilized a filibuster proof Senate.
Wake up..... with these machines/tabulation software in use, the Republic is dead. Long live King George, then Jeb, then some other Republican... If we don't suffer economic collapse first.
Conyers was interviewed on Olberman last night...what a weenie. After saying that we need to improve the accountability of these voting systems in future elections, he demured on the question of the validity of the vote total this time around. So let's see....the voting system isn't valid, but the results of the election are OK. I can imagine what Delay would say if the shoe were on the other foot.
The Dems are weak. Begging the Repubican majority to play fair is a losers game. They need to get tough and go to the mat for genuine democracy..one man, one vote, all votes counted.
He also could have said that the losing party in any election has to have confidence that the system is fair. After a while, if the popular will of the people is subverted by what appears to be nefarious means, they may come to the conclusion that peaceful change is impossible. This would be disastrous.
I only clicked on OK once, I promise.
If the result is changed it will cost us 2008 and keep us from taking back congress in 2006. Bush would have the people's sympathy and people will vote republican for real the next time.
Just let Bush resign or get impeached, which will almost surely happen. Things will inevitably get much worse during this term as Bush's debts effect the economy and the situation in Iraq deteriorates. If Kerry was president, he'd be blamed for it. Better to have Bush get blamed, since he can't blame it on the Democrats. It will put us in a much stronger position for the next election and may even cause the downfall of the Republican party.
I can understand how badly some of you want it to be true that John Kerry beat the President in this election and that to be able to boil it down to election fraud would truly vindicate all the heart and soul that you put into your support for Senator Kerry and against President Bush. I am not trying to pooh-pooh your desire to believe in what you are saying. But I think that a few facts are in order here (from Vast. Right. Wing.):
The 28 counties I analyzed all voted for the same party's candidate as they had voted for in 2000. Of the 28 counties I looked at, only two voted for Gore in 2000 (the same ones went for Kerry in 2004). It is certainly true that in most of them, Bush increased his totals over 2000. But that is likely due to the fact that Gore was a Southerner (having been a Senator from Tennessee) while Kerry is a New Englander through and through or to the fact that this time terrorism was on the table. (UPDATE: On a second reading of the data, it looks like in 21 of the 26 counties Bush won this time, Kerry actually increased his vote totals. It's just that Bush increased his more, likely the result of a better Get Out The Vote effort by the Republicans. This is completely in line with Ken Mehlman's strategy of focusing on suburban and rural voters - which most of these are since the counties have tiny populations).
Also, in 1996, in an election that was largely a landslide for Clinton and with Perot in the race, Dole won 12 of those counties. Of the 16 Clinton won, he won 5 by less than 2%. And let me remind you that 1996 was a three-way race with about 8-15% of the vote going for Perot, that ended up being a landslide for the Southerner, Bill Clinton. So, it seems that party registrations played very little role. Just as an example, Liberty County has 10-to-1 Democrat to Republican registration. But, it went for Dole in 1996. Similarly, Calhoun County has 7-to-1 Democrat to Republican registration, but only went for Clinton by less than 2%. I think that this concludes that Olbermann's analysis is bunk.
Also-
In 2000, Gore took Cuyahoga by a margin of 203,161 (57%) to 138,538 (39%)
for Bush.This year, Kerry took Cuyahoga with 433,262 (66%) to 215,624 (33%) for
Bush.Kerry increased his vote total by 230,101!!! This is more than double -
it's an increase of 113%!!!Bush increased his vote total by 77,086, a more
modest increase of 56%.
This year there were about 650,000 votes cast in Cuyahoga out of about
a million registered voters.So if there were 94,000 'extra' ballots 'found' -
the numbers above would lead me to believe that if these are fraudulent, they
would be fraudulent in favor of Kerry.It's a historically Democratic county with
Democratic county commissioners and Democratic poll workers, Kerry increases his
vote total by 113%, and has an increase of votes THREE times Bush's increase, so
that Kerry gets 66% of the vote versus 57% for Gore in 2000.
What would make anyone think there was Bush fraud in this county?
I
agree - it should be investigated. If those 94,000 votes are split 66-33 like
the county, that would mean 62,669 extra votes for Kerry to 31,331 extra for
Bush, which means Bush actually wins Ohio by 168,000 instead of 137,000.
Yes- voter fraud is probably a factor in this years presidential race. Kerry probably lost by MORE than the vote totals are currently showing.
Also-
In 2000, Gore took Cuyahoga by a margin of 203,161 (57%) to 138,538 (39%)
for Bush.This year, Kerry took Cuyahoga with 433,262 (66%) to 215,624 (33%) for
Bush.Kerry increased his vote total by 230,101!!! This is more than double -
it's an increase of 113%!!!Bush increased his vote total by 77,086, a more
modest increase of 56%.
This year there were about 650,000 votes cast in Cuyahoga out of about
a million registered voters.So if there were 94,000 'extra' ballots 'found' -
the numbers above would lead me to believe that if these are fraudulent, they
would be fraudulent in favor of Kerry.It's a historically Democratic county with
Democratic county commissioners and Democratic poll workers, Kerry increases his
vote total by 113%, and has an increase of votes THREE times Bush's increase, so
that Kerry gets 66% of the vote versus 57% for Gore in 2000.
What would make anyone think there was Bush fraud in this county?
I
agree - it should be investigated. If those 94,000 votes are split 66-33 like
the county, that would mean 62,669 extra votes for Kerry to 31,331 extra for
Bush, which means Bush actually wins Ohio by 168,000 instead of 137,000.
Yes- voter fraud is probably a factor in this years presidential race. Kerry probably lost by MORE than the vote totals are currently showing.
I agree completely with Atrios. I think people need to realize just how much of a negative impact the conpiracy screeching has. Even supposing we accept the possibility that some of these theories could be true, trumpeting them to the skies mostly only provides fodder for the wingnuts hold up as "PROOF" that all liberals wear tinfoil hats, blah blah blah. If you really believe something fishy is going on and want to do something about it, then investigate, compile credible evidence, and then start talking about it. Conspiracy echo chambers serve the other side far more than they do us, and right now we can't give them any more help than they've already given themselves.
Funny, Atrios was propping himself recently saying he was the first "shrill" blogger.
Go back a whole week and see if he mentioned voter fraud once. Even the stuff that has been proved. Did he mention the paperless machines once? No. He only mentioned it when putting down the "shrill" bloggers. Well, it's a start.
No proof? Start at The Blogging of the President for some proof--they've outdone my compilations so far at American Samizdat.
There is obviously a polarization among the left right now--on one side you have Randi Rhodes, Mike Malloy, Laura Flanders, Amy Goodman, Thom Hartmann, Mark Crispin Miller, and a buncha blogs--on the other you have Al Franken and Atrios. (a thumbnail listing to be sure)
Prez of Diebold promises the Ohio electoral votes to Bush. These machines are run by Republicans. Exit polls have been accurate for decades pre-2000, and were accurate this time EXCEPT where the GOP-owned machines were. You have tens of counties in Florida alone with more votes for Bush than voter turnout . . . you have memos found on the Diebold website titled "Rob Georgia" and whaddya know--Max Cleland--who lost limbs in war--loses to a draft dodger who charged Max with being unpatriotic (going back to 2002). (also a thumbnail sketch)
Well, if it takes the shrill to even get you to mention the subject in order to insult them, then so be it. The left will coalesce again--especially when needed like for a Presidential election. But for right now, the polarization will continue.
Of course what you say is fairly well right on the money.
But I'd add the following: the reason so many people are so upset and so ready to scream fraud in the face of what is still insufficient evidence is the pattern of behavior that came before this election.
One just really gets the sense that there is some sort of conspiracy going on. Now I'm a skeptic by nature. And I am loathe to endorse just about anything with the word "conspiracy" in it. But sheesh, this president is just about force feeding all of us massive hunks of 'conspiracy theory pie,' guaranteed to make your blood boil and your head spin with all kinds of wild notions. He has lied and covered up and mislead us since day one.
So can you blame people for drawing a few premature conclusions? After all, just because there is no proof that Peppermint Patty is going to yank away the football at the last minute this time, Charlie Brown is not entirely remiss in concluding that she's going to anyway, right?
mr strauss
pop goes lethal
Atrios is Wrong
>>>There's never anything wrong with raising questions. Here's the Frame
(oops, trying again)
Atrios is Wrong
"There's never anything wrong with raising questions."
Yes, there is. If that's all you do. And if you do so by setting up a false context/frame designed to keep it that way.
The options are not limited to "just raise questions" or "overreach by claiming proof." But that's what we are being trained to think/say/think.
We MUST define the context/frame or even proof we be on no use. Yes, stone cold proof will be USELESS.
Here's the Frame
We Do Not Concede!
In a true America, leaders serve only with the consent of the governed, and that consent must be obtained by lawful elections that accurately measure the will of the voters. We shall not tolerate any violation of this fundamental principle, the SOLE moral tenet on which our nation was founded and has since relied.
The voting systems and practices used in the conduct of this past election are so clearly flawed that the results in nearly every state are wide open to corruption by systematic vote suppression, data manipulation, human and machine error, and consequently, willful fraud. The only certain result is that we can have NO confidence in how accurately they guage the will of the electorate.
We refuse to further descend into the Stalinist perversion of "democracy;" in which "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." Such was the clear underpinning of the 4-year-old edict of the 5 black-robed political operatives, who arrogated to themselves the perquisite of sentencing the nation by their fiat to live under appointed rule as opposed to elected leadership.
We the People, through our representatives, have set out our election laws to ensure that election results reflect OUR will. In far too many states, demonstrable errors and anomalous patterns of result have rendered the "official" tally suspect. More tragically, the systems and processes implemented by "experts" now make it impossible for us to rule out corruption without further investigation and audit.
Given the likely consequences of once again tacitly accepting corrupt results, the moral burden must now be on each state to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that their results are accurate and lawfully obtained.There is no other patriotic option.
But let us be clear, IF WE ARE UNABLE to obtain this proof under current election law, through civil and/or criminal judicial means, then we MUST RESORT to a political solution and demand that our Congress reject the electors from ANY STATE that fails to validate its results through comprehensive, apolitical investigation and audit.
Our law is intended to serve our will, not thwart it. We can never again allow a "technical" or "legal" arguments and rationalizations to trump reality as we did in 2000.
NEVER AGAIN.
(my next post has specifics)
We MUST put them ON THE DEFENSIVE for a change or we'll be ignored.
What We Require.
To prove that their election results were lawfully obtained and reflect the will of the voters, we demand that each state:
(1) Provide the data required to prove they did not create discriminatory barriers to voting.
Across the nation, people were forced to wait for hours to even attempt to cast their ballots. This onerous waiting time constitutes a de facto poll tax (time is money). Each state must provide data on wait times at each polling place, demographics of the registered voters served by the polling place, and the number of resources (voting machines, poll workers) assigned and working during operating hours. The burden is on the state to prove, not simply assert, that its practices were not discriminatory.
We will not accept any argument that the discrimination would not have affected the outcome. Such arguments are a sham. Are systematic violations of voting rights OK for those who live in a state in which the margin of victory for one candidate or the other is large? Of course not! Further, if any discrimination is found to be racially based, as was the legal finding of the US Commission on Civil Right in the 2000 Florida election, such a result is unlawful, as well as being intolerably immoral and contrary to American values.
Whatever the margin of victory or number of electoral votes, if any state FAILS TO PROVE that the existence of poll-tax-lines, or any other unnecessary obstruction to voting, was not correlated with RACIAL, SOCIO-ECONOMIC, or PARTISAN STATUS of the voters, that state MUST NOT be afforded the privelege of participation in the electoral vote.
2) Provide to all responsible, professional investigators any necessary records and full access to systems and software, in order to PROVE THAT THE RESULTS WERE NOT CORRUPTED by manipulation, human or machine error, or fraud.
Acceptable investigators will be those sanctioned by any court, professional organization, political party, or other bonding entity willing to warrant their actions. These investigations must be provided the records and access required to examine:
Every tabulation system that consolidates results at any level (e.g., GEMs tabulators).
Every "black box" voting system.
Every undervote, overvote, and spoiled ballot occurance.
Every voter registration record and known voter registration agents and entities.
Every absentee ballot request, delivery record, return envelope, counted and disallowed ballot, any and all records of absentee vote and ballot disposition by any agent or entity.
Every provisional counted and disallowed provisional ballot, unfullfilled provisional ballot request, provisional ballot inventories for each polling station, any and all records of provisional ballot disposition by any agent or entity.
ANY STATE THAT REFUSES to make every effort to successfully confirm that their published vote tallies are free f
ANY STATE THAT REFUSES to make every effort to successfully confirm that their published vote tallies are free from manipulation and/or error MUST BE considered morally irresponsible and acting contrary to agreed upon American values. There CAN BE NO ACCEPTABLE EXCUSE or rationalization that can compete with the restoration of confidence in our electoral process.
For such a circumstance there can be no other moral, or patriotic response than full criminal investigation and prosecution, civil pursuit of maximum remedies for damage to the body politic, and DENIAL OF THE PRIVILEGE of participation in the Electoral College for any tainted, irregularly appointed, electors who might endeavor to infect the process.
We will accept no verbal assurances, no misleading representations from partial investigations, no shifting of responsibility onto the media or the public at large, and NO DELAY OF ANY KIND.
On this there can be NO COMPROMISE of what is required of us, NO RETREAT from our historic duty, and NO SURRENDER to any agent, foreign or domestic, that would even contemplate any act of obstruction.
---Note to defeatists (aka, democrats): It is NOT ABOUT winning or succeeding. We are staking out a political position. A quite reasonable one. We are simply not ceding them the playing field for once.
Is it possible that the Bush people came on so strong demanding a Kerry concession because they themselves were worried about hacking? In other words, what if Bush did not engineer it? What if Bush is simply the beneficiary? And he could not afford to have people investigating the numbers, because his campaign feared that something was amiss?
If you were a teenage hacker, there would be no bigger score than altering a presidential election. Why don't we know more about the firewalls (if any) used in Ohio?
Some organization, such as MoveOn or ACT, needs to address this with a web site detailing each voting irregularity concern with the known, valid facts of the case and a continuously updated investigation on each county and precint that is of concern. There are people like me just waiting to give that organization money. (And yes, I have already donated to blackboxvoting.org)
Each story needs to be vetted or discarded. Whereever we find fraud. We need to get the results changed, both to know today's true outcome and for tomorrow's victory. If we let these stories become unresolved urban legends, they will poison activism, and turn the foundation for the 2006 and 2008 elections into sand.
I seriously doubt that teenage hackers anything to do with the results. There are a lot more talented, a lot better funded, educated, and motivated hackers out there that would do the job. Especially with the help of a privatized Diebold. The hype over teenage hackers is actually that. Hype.
There is young talent out there, but they eventually get discovered or co-opted. The best hackers I know work for the military.
It's bad enough that people like me are having to waste our time fighting with people that should be on our side...
But if one more fucking person says that this is Atrios' site and he has the right to write what he wants...I AM GOING TO FUCKING EXPLODE.
This is America...What are you, fucking Ari Fleischer. We have the right to free speech (except when it comes to criticizing fucked up elections I guess). If Atrios doesn't want to hear our voices...he can close up the comments AGAIN...or he could delete everyone but the "yes men."
This is an important blog. It's also a community. So you're damn right I'm mad that so many of you aren't supporting this fight.
And I'm sorry...but calling people conspiracy theorists or tin foil hat wearers is not "thoughtful." Neither is taking a week to write about the most important topic that there is.
Yeah...I've been thinking about leaving this country lately...but it's because of YOU people...if we can't get you to understand that THIS is the right battle at the right time...then there is no hope.
Every single person who has posted on this thread anger about this election and a desire to fight it...I applaud you...I salute you...DON'T LET THESE PEOPLE TALK YOU OUT OF IT. They're wrong.
Republicans shut down Congress. Republicans tried to impeach a president for a blow job. Republicans scream fraud about elections they fucking won!!!!!
That's because they're not cowards. they would've attacked Clinton if 9/11 happened on his watch...google what they said about the first WTC and Waco and Somalia.
They also stand together. They also answer e-mails and link to one another. They also press the important issues over and over again without letting them fade away (like Abu Ghraib for instance...ive read plenty of people who complained that the mass media dropped the ball on it...but no one likes to admit that the big time bloggers stopped writing about it as well...even Seymore Hersch's book was given short shrift).
I know Atrios and Kos must hate me (if they think about me for more than a second after reading one of my angry posts on their sites) but I DON'T CARE!!! We need their fucking help and they better stand up...otherwise new bloggers will take their place and they can get jobs with the SLC.
This is what I posted on the newer thread; IMO it belongs here, too:
I have never really understood the negative connotation attached to the word "conspiracy."
Conspiracies happen all the time. Enron? Watergate? Mob convictions?
There are plenty of examples of convictions on charges of conspiracy: conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to obstruct justice, etc. etc.
If you theorize about a set of foul-smelling facts, coming to the conclusion that a conspiracy occurred, you have just become a "conspiracy theorist." It would seem to me that every government prosecutor in the country is a "conspiracy theorist."
Atrios and other major bloggers seem to be taking their cue from the Democratic Party, which has something to hide, and it is this:
The Democratic leadership permitted our voting system to be taken over by pro-Bush CEOs who required that the central tabulator source code be kept secret as proprietary information, and who maintained that a paper receipt for voting is not necessary because their electronic voting machines are so reliable.
This is so absurd on its face--and so utterly outrageous as a violation of good government--you have to wonder about the Democratic leadership.
They should have burned the Capitol to the ground to get this changed.
Republicans owning the voting system with secret tabulators--source code that not even state election officials are permitted to see?
Code run on WINDOWS!!!???
With no paper receipt, no recount, no audit possible???!!!
This is a failure of the Democratic leadership like no other they have been guilty of. In essence, they gave away our democracy--or at least presented no effective opposition to, and gave us little warning that, the election system was not just highly riggable--it was an open invitation to fraud.
The fraud occurred back then, when this setup for stealing elections was put in place, and all the porkbarrel HAVA money started flowing to the states.
The Democratic Party did this to us, by not telling the nation in the loudest voice they could collectively muster that REPUBLICAN PARTISANS OWNING THE VOTE COUNTING SOFTWARE AND KEEPING IT A SECRET IS NOT OKAY!
Given these two facts--secret source code, no paper receipt (in a third of the nation)--you are perfectly reasonable in forming a working hypothesis that this election was stolen. Indeed, if you don't make this assumption, you may never get to step 2: how they did it, and where.
You need to take in consideration two forms of narrative evidence:
1. Republican partisans owned and had access to the central tabulator software--which no one else, not even election officials, have seen--and these same Republican owned companies fought for and got no paper receipt in a third of the country despite their machines repeatedly failing tests and grave flaws in the certification process.
2. Kerry was winning--all the way up to the closing of polls on Nov.2, when the tabulation began. (Pre-election opinion poll analysis, and election day exit polls both showed Kerry winning, possibly by a landslide.)
Some of the evidence for what they did and how and where they did it is all over the internet right now--not centrally located (a job major bloggers could be helping us with, except that they seem to have abdicated).
In three states, for instance, the data is showing a significant difference between the number of votes and the number of voters. FLA-about 250,000 more votes than voters; OH-about 93,000; Nebraska-10,000.
I think that last one (Nebraska-10,000) may actually be the most important. M
And it's not just crunching the last few percentage points in swing states.
Shaving points/votes from all states was part of the PR/propaganda plan from the start.
That way they could dump the electoral college should the outright theft fail. If you recall, they let it slip in 2000 that the media was already "in the can" to do so.
I'm 100% with Atrios on this one. It's fine to have your suspicions, but jesus christ on a bicycle, follow up on them, don't just go on spouting them as the one truth, you'll sound like an evangelical christian; that is something no one wishes to sound like.
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