I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Frist
Might as well keep it in there for the coming return to the 1950s.
morals and values
So let me get this straight...they voted in favor of keeping the segretationist language?
WTF, isnt' that illegal?
It's just a symbolic measure; which they chose not to take anyway.
Long live racism eh?
Will this country never heal its addiction to keeping people down?
Apparently not.
.
"Oh Alabam', you've got the rest of the Union / to help you along..."
And the backlash against President Johnson for pushing through the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 continues. The red state of Alabama has a happy home in the republican party.
Symbolic of WHAT?
Jesus would be so proud...
Seriously, this is shameful. Really, really shameful.
Jesus was brown-skinned, wasn't he?
Well, things are getting better, though, as far as I can tell, and I'm from Mississippi. They are getting better quite rapidly, I'd say. I notice how groups of kids nowadays are racially mixed, and I even notice more mixed racial groups of friends that are much older. Its quite refreshing to see it sometimes, but then there is obviously the other side.
my great, great, great grandfather
expressed " a great joy had befel him"
over shooting a few of these people.
I'd like to remind everyone that this amendment would have NO PRACTICAL EFFECT. Sure, passing it would make my home state look better, but what we need to do is, rewrite the whole thing.
http://constitutionalreform.org
The reason that people voted against the amendment is because conservatives objected to the removal of the language which says that a public education is not a right to which the children of Alabama are entitled. They cast this portion of the amendment as a backdoor method of increasing taxes to adequately fund Alabama schools.
It is not an exaggeration to say that some schools no longer stock toilet paper (students and their parents are expected to donate it) or employ janitors. (Teachers and administrators are supposed to do the cleaning.) They do however find money for football.
The lack of support for public education here is tied to the rise of the segregated "Christian" private schools across much of the state. Many public schools are now as segregated (or nearly as segregated) as they were prior to Brown vs. the Board of Education.
There is also the the base racism factor. In 2002 we passed an amendment to the Alabama constitution which removed language prohibiting interracial marriage. That amendment passed with just over 50% of the vote. More than 4 in 10 voted to keep the language in the state constitution. Really.
Media Surpression In Iraq
This sounds like 'ole Alabama to me, it would make Jesus proud.
Ah'm sick o' gittin' picked on by them Yankee libruls. We ain't racists down here. We just don't like the nigras mixin' in with our kinfolk. Praise Jesus.
"values" voters in action!
And we shore nuff don wan repeal no poll tax.
My head has exploded!
I can be a Republic voter now!
Ok, I know it offends some people here but I gotta say, "Fuck the South!"
Or as Randy Newman said:
Last night I saw Lester Maddox on a TV show
With some smart ass New York Jew
And the Jew laughed at Lester Maddox
And the audience laughed at Lester Maddox too
Well he may be a fool but he's our fool
If they think they're better than him they're wrong
So I went to the park and I took some paper along
And that's where I made this song
We talk real funny down here
We drink too much and we laugh too loud
We're too dumb to make it in no Northern town
And we're keepin' the niggers down
We got no-necked oilmen from Texas
And good ol' boys from Tennessee
And colleges men from LSU
Went in dumb - Come out dumb too
Hustlin' 'round Atlanta in their alligator shoes
Gettin' drunk every weekend at the barbecues
And they're keepin' the niggers down
We're rednecks, we're rednecks
And we don't know our ass from a hole in the ground
We're rednecks, we're rednecks
And we're keeping the niggers down...
how shall we divide ourselves without our labels; language is a leash upon the mind restraining the free growth of expression- Alabama not such a sweet fucking home afterall...
at least not for all- good grief.
Oh come on, its not like constitutions MEAN anything? Certainly not some puny state one. Otherwise why are people allowed to vote on it.
"
Might as well keep it in there for the coming return to the 1950s.
Hecate | Email | Homepage | 11.11.04 - 6:10 pm | # .."
I think we'll go further back than that. Listening on the news this am about GWB's early introduction of Social Security onto the agenda (the first steps in the long term plan of the neo-Cons to completely dismantle federal welfare of any kind in the US) had me wondering what it would be like here in 20 or so years with Dickensian, cheap labor conservatives in charge, and no health or welfare services for the under-privileged. I had an image of sallow couples, the man in threadbare suit with cloth cap, the woman with shawl and squawling babe, embarking on grimy ships in the hope of a better life in the 'Old World'. Strangely depressing
You see, if the Democrats were thinking more about inventing popular issues -- instead of dealing with the issues that are actually facing real Americans -- then they could mount a national campaign to repreal such state constitutional provisions -- daring the Republicans to not join in.
OT but I saw something today that struck me as a perfect metaphor for the current situation.
I saw a V formation of geese, they were perfect, well spaced and flying gracefully together.
Then I noticed that they were flying north. In November. I would like to think that spring is ahead too.
But winter is coming and flying north is just stupid. Here we are, America, flying north in November.
at the first sign of contention that might develop against bush, we've all seen how media first go to biden and lieberman, who can be depended on to undercut any dem opposition by a "oh, it's not that bad" "or let's not rush to conclusions" reaction. media then go to hagel and mccain who better reflect reality by acknowledging "yes, this is really bad".
i realized the only reason biden became vocal about iraq is because not that he hoped it help kerry win but that it would gain him a cabinet position. biden only gets vocal when it's in his own self interest.
now biden has returned to his default position of party backstabber. if i ever saw him in person, i would throw a rock at him.
Red State Values - Alabama style.
They know how much it pisses off Yankees, so they vote this way. It's similar to African-American support of Al Sharpton. Black folks know he helped Tawana lie, but they figure any black leader who can so thoroughly piss off Caucasians must have something good going on.
Same sort of "fuck you" principle.
You've got to be kidding me! Right?! Right??!!!
And here I was, thinking 'why yes, I surely do intend to stay here, in my home. I must mean to, else why would I have just finished planting onions and spading up the garden, and putting in new perennials.'
Silly me. I only have until to-morrow really to decide, maybe Saturday. Shall I pay attention to Uncle Otto and go back to Grandmother Country, where no one will do much to hurt me besides the weather - which will kill me young- or hope?
Thanks. Beats the hell out of me. Uncle Otto!
new breaking story at
http://www.freepress.org/columns...play/3/2004/
985
provisional ballots in ohio are being destroyed because they do not comply with a law passed THIS AFTERNOON.
Um, how many voters do you think knew what the hell they were voting on? I don't know what you do, but I always vote "no" if I don't understand the amendments.
Here we are, America, flying north in November.
Those geese are smarter than you think, they are flying north for next summer. Next summer is going to be a mighty hot one, they're just trying to get ahead of the other geese.
Is this really any surprise considering its coming from Alabama?
Once again, you are showing your elitist contempt for the Blue States and their moral values. If you northeastern liberal Democrats ever hope to build a constituency beyond your angry Leftist base, you will need to reach out to Middle America, and make a concerted effort to understand how they think and worship God, and what it is that matters to their families.
You know. Like this.
Hugs 'n' kisses!
The Liberal Media
Isn't AL one of those states with an enormous constitution, because (nearly?) every law gets added to it, rather than to an ordinary state code? Or somesuch?
What will we tell Clarence Thomas?
I went to middle school in high school in Broward County, Florida, circa the late 80's. Guess what? The school was TOTALLY segregated. It was shameful. Even in a supposedly liberal place like Broward, a lot of the old cracker vestiges were still around and in charge over at the school board. I never, NEVER had a class with a black kid in it. The black kids' classes were on the other side of the campus. It was really quite out in the open.
In middle school I was in the "gifted" program. One of our teachers was this weasely mountain man type guy who we all suspected lived in his van. In addition to teaching the all-white gifted class, this guy also taught remedial math and science, which was heavily populated by black kids, kids who were overwhelmingly financially disadvantaged. Every once in a while, Mr. Regan would have a little fun by inviting one of the privileged snots from the gifted class to sit in and observe the remedial class. The "gifted" kid would write a report basically poking fun at the Ebonics-style dialect of the African-American students. Charming, huh?
One guy who taught Economics in high school was straight out of The Last Picture Show. Former star quarterback for the school back in the 50's. Had the Jimmie Johnson haircut. Everyone called him "Coach." His favorite slur to call black students was "Sambo." I'm sure many of you are familiar with this breed of redneck asshole.
My little brother went there a few years later, and it hadn't changed. Well, it had changed a little, because when I went to school there at least there were no race riots. There were probably a half-dozen or so "incidents" when my brother was in school there.
I can only imagine what it's like in Alabama, where people are even DUMBER and the old cracker institutions are even more cherished.
OT, for those keeping tabs on voting irregularities, from Olbermann's newsletter:
Nine days have passed since the presidential election.
The bloggers said there were some funky results out there.
The facts supported some of their assertions.
At the risk of sounding self-congratulatory, it's safe to say that Keith Olbermann has been the only network anchor, anywhere, to spend a healthy amount of time on the subject.
And the story has gotten some limited attention in other mainstream press outlets. It is often dismissive though -- having fun with the 'conspiracy theories' while not giving a hard look at the instances of likely voting machine malfunction.
Now Kerry's lawyers say they want to identify any voting problems and put to rest any doubts about the legitimacy of the Ohio vote. To do that they'll ask election officials about the number of absentee and provisional ballots and if there were any reports of equipment malfunctions. "While the outcome of the election is not in doubt, no one cares more about voting irregularities than John Kerry and John Edwards," Kerry campaign spokesman David Wade said in describing what he called a "fact-finding mission" in Ohio.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6460869/
The DNC is also quick to point out that it is not questioning the overall result: "At this point the number of irregularities brought to our attention is not going to change the outcome of the election," "The simple fact of the matter is that Republicans received more votes than Democrats, and we're not contesting this election." WaPo link
And there's another thorn in the side of the let's-just-sleepily-put-this-away set: the minor party candidates. The Green party may now demand a recount in Ohio. Read Keith's blog.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/
One thing we'll look at today: how those internet conspiracy theories fueled this mainstream investigation.
That's tonight at 8 ET, folks, MSNBC. Apologies if someone already posted this; I just got home a little while ago.
When I was a teenager my father and I drove through Alabama one summer in the mid-1960s going back to Albuquerque from Nashville. Two things struck me about Alabama then: 1) The heat and humidity were beyond tolerance as we drove down out of Tennessee towards Montgomery, and 2) there were no black people on the streets of Montgomery as we drove through, none at all. I thought then and I still think today that going to Alabama is like going to Hell. Maybe worse.
of course, the point of Newman's song was that racism exists in every part of our fair land - and it still does. Alabama is simply upfront about it. i'm not sure which disgusts me more...
Is this really any surprise considering its coming from Alabama?
Der Überscheisse
alabama had a dem governor, who would have won reelection in '02 if it wasn't for "irregularities" in a vote count.
oy, that was me again
The 'necks sure aren't going to like President Obama.
I have cousins in Alabama. They're very nice people, conservative, Republican, but not racist; in fact, emphatically the opposite. They know I'm gay, and that's okay.
They wonder why I don't visit. I dissemble a lot, but the real reason is, "Uh, nooooooo!"
So let me get this straight...they voted in favor of keeping the segretationist language?
deja pseu | Email | Homepage | 11.11.04 - 6:11 pm | #
My opinion exactly. What were they voting on? To keep being bigots or to end bigotry?
MYOB'
.
Is it just me or has this site lost some edge.
Nothing much to report today says Atrios? What about Nader filing for a recount in NH? What about Blackwell's antics is OH? What about the Green Party about to file for a recount in OH?
I want to rebroadcast poormojo's alert, above... this looks like it may be MAJOR STUFF.
They are literally destroying provisional ballots in Ohio this afternoon, due to a ruling passed around 3:30 today that changed an earlier rule which said that if your DATE OF BIRTH were not on the packet it was okay.
Now... not okay. No DOB? Burn it.
Un. Fucking. Real.
http://tinyurl.com/6tqtw
Is it me,or does anyone else think Kerry doesnt care of its possible that Rove stole the election (again)?
Otherwise I would think Kerry would more outspoken.Kerry is the only one who can find the truth behind the irregularities and he just sits there with his thumb up his butt.
smallfish
go read some Kos diaries - get out of your little comfort zone
The "reason" why it was voted down was Taxes! One can guess which group claimed that some of the language would lead to an increase in taxes. Nonsensical on the face, it served as an excuse to keep the wording.
Never been to Alabama, never wanted to go there.
*sigh*
I wish to hell that this shit didn't happen all the goddamned time.
I could say that in my little crappy hometown in Texas, we integrated without a hitch, and that's the truth. No problems at all.
And everyone else would say "so what? you still suck."
*sigh*
But whoever it was upthread saying things have improved - it looks that way to me, too. But what the hell do I know? I'm white.
Well, look at it this way; what would the results of such a vote have been 40 years ago...?
Hell, it's only 2004 and 'Bama's almost into the 20th Century! Not bad.
</half-full mode>
smalfish,
Check this out:
http://tinyurl.com/6ol25
JK47,
My daughter went to elementary school in South Miami in the mid 1990's. By a matter of feet, she was placed in the historically black school (Ludlam Elementary) instead of the historically white one (South Miami Elementary). Weird. Her school had no air conditioning (in Miami, where school starts in August), and when a county law was passed mandating swimming lessons for all students as a matter of public safety, they cleared out half their cafeteria and put up one of those 10' round, 3' deep above-ground pools to meet the requirement. The historically white school, of course, had had an indoor pool and air conditioning all along.
She was also in the gifted program, where, if not wholly white and Asian, the ratio of African American students was much, much lower.
Here's the frustrating thing. No matter what the legal language says Southern schools are still segregated.
Whites go to private schools (poor whites go to "christian" schools.
Blacks go to public schools.
No that's no reason not to clean the language up. It's just a goddamn shame that desegregation in the South was more symbolic than actual.
There are exceptions, but Memphis isn't one of them.
Bama, meet Obama. ;^)
smalfish,
Check your email....
meanwhile in Iraq, the government of Allawi threatened the press with unspecified punishment if it did not sing the praises of the government
check URL for details
But whoever it was upthread saying things have improved - it looks that way to me, too. But what the hell do I know? I'm white.
From a few unbelievable experiences with other whites, I can only tell you that it's not PC to openly admit you're a bigot.
My Alabama story: My family was travelling through Alabama with all our camping gear loded into a 1971 Ford Econoline van when my mom drove it off a low shoulder into a peanut field, where it rolled upside down. Fortunately, no one was badly hurt, and, as we were standing around wondering what to do, a man drove up in a pickup truck, jumped out and began loading our stuff into the back. My dad asked him what he was doing, and he said, "Well, I figure y'all are staying with us until you get back on the road." We ended up staying with them for a few days while the van was repaired and we got on our way. Mom and Dad still get an Xmas card from them every year. Anyway, while we were there, we NEVER heard ANY racist talk out of this farm/horse raising family.
Funny thing is, we're from Pennsylvania, and from what I understand the Grand PoohBah of the KKK lived in a small town not far from us.
Just sayin'.
meanwhile in Iraq, the government of Allawi threatened the press with unspecified punishment if it did not sing the praises of the government
Does the Iraqi press like turkee?
I shall not knowingly purchase any goods originating in or assembled in Alabama or any goods containing parts originating in or assembled in Alabama, nor shall I set foot in that state, even if it requires a detour of hundreds of miles to get to my destination, unless the amendment passes or the people of Alabama come to their senses, whichever comes first.
MisterX,
What color are you?
Just sayin'.
poor alabama also has the highest rates for committing suicide.
Well, MisterX, hateful lefty hypocrites don't like to hear things like that about Southerners. They want to hate, hate, hate the South and everyone in it.
They'll go on and on about how wrong it is to stereotype people of color, gays or anyone and then break out their KKK paint brush for everyone in the South.
There are good and bad people everywhere. There are smart and stupid people everywhere. No region has a lock on any category.
Lots of Southern bashing takes place in the lefty blogs, especially here at Atrios. You still haven't learned anything. Think bigger, already.
Lots of people in the South voted for Kerry, Gore and Clinton, including me.
The legal and practical problems with Amendment 2 are too complicated to summarize accurately. But it was utterly useless, both legally and practically. It was basically a publicity stunt, initiated and supported by some "good government" types, the local newspaper editorial boards, and the Republican Governor. They thought it was a "freebie," but they had no idea what they were doing, and so all it did was backfire, help a Roy Moore disciple get elected to the Alabama Supreme Court, and provide an easy target for commentary like we have here. It was also, technically speaking, a total piece of crap and I had no trouble voting against it - and I supported Kerry 100% as well.
What this is, to be frank, is the hope that Brown v. Bord of Education will be overruled someday.
We naturally focus a lot of attention on Roe v. Wade, because of it's shaky majority among the current set of justices, but that is not the stopping point for the right wing, or maybe we should just call them what they really are, the confederate wing. They aren't just aiming at abortion and then going home happy if they get their wish.
I guess he'll be free to talk now.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A CIA (news - web sites) analyst who wrote a book that criticized the U.S. war on terror has resigned from the spy agency after it effectively banned him from publicly discussing his views, his publicist said on Thursday.
...the point of Newman's song was that racism exists in every part of our fair land - and it still does.
Yes, but most places have long since purged their official bits of codified racism, unlike the crackers in the South, who just can't let it go.
It can't be said often enough: Fuck the South.
Otherwise I would think Kerry would more outspoken.Kerry is the only one who can find the truth behind the irregularities and he just sits there with his thumb up his butt.
smalfish
not forgiving him for conceding too fast...
but i heard somewhere that a troop of kerry lawyers finally got sent to ohio to investigate voting procedure.
i think heard this on dn, let me look it up.
There are good and bad people everywhere. There are smart and stupid people everywhere. No region has a lock on any category.
Lots of Southern bashing takes place in the lefty blogs, especially here at Atrios. You still haven't learned anything. Think bigger, already.
I've learned the assholes rule in the South. Learned that a long, long time ago.
It hasn't changed, has it?
Neal Young was right. Sweat Home Alabama my ass Skynard.
sigh
I plead ignorance about Alabama. The only thing I know is that Stephen Foster, who wasn't from Alabama, wrote one heck of a song relating to Alabama, "O Susanna."
And I know that my dad was arrested there for urinating on the side of the road back in 1953. He had to spend the night in jail. They didn't much care for the fact that he was from the North, so he had to pay a big fine as well. That's my dad, pissing on injustice.
Regarding segregation, all I can say is that integration has been with me for most of my life. Black kids were bussed to my school starting in the third grade. I remember, growing up in an all white area of town, being startled the first time that I saw an African American child in my school. Being brought up in an Easter lily white environment, white bread, white sheets, white dishes, white Jesus, white everything, I wish that the adults had done a better job of educating children on the value of tolerance. Even when I was young, though, I had a strong sense of justice and tolerance, and I can remember defending black kids when others would taunt them. By the 5th grade or so, the kids more or less blended in and began accepting each other.
Frankly, I think integration has been a really good thing. I've observed that children's attitudes towards those who are of different skin color have grown much more tolerant over the last generation. My daughter attends a diverse, multi-racial school. She has since kindergarten. There is not a prejudiced bone in her body. By and large, with a couple of noted exceptions, that is the way it is with her friends, too. She has several gay friends, as well. When I was in high school, gay kids absolutely never "outed" themselves. People whispered, but that was about it. Now, if they so choose, for the most part, gay kids are free to discuss who they are with others.
I, for one, am glad that my urban community has come this far in 30 years. Not to say that we can't improve ~ we still have a long way to go in this country. I submit the last election as evidence of that. Nonetheless, I hope for communication and relations between everyone to improve as the years march on.
Lots of Southern bashing takes place in the lefty blogs, especially here at Atrios. - TENN
Well, I've been coming here for quite some time, and I don't see that. I think the consensus is that "rednecks" aren't confined to the South, they're everywhere, in every state. Hell, folks in Philly and Pittsburg consider us Central Pennsylvanians backwards hillbillies.
I've traveled to 44 states (by car), lived in PA, CA, and FLA and met racist shitheads in all of them, but I can't recall one state or area having the market cornered on hate.
ust sayin'.
Lots of Southern bashing takes place in the lefty blogs, especially here at Atrios. - TENN
Well, I've been coming here for quite some time, and I don't see that. I think the consensus is that "rednecks" aren't confined to the South, they're everywhere, in every state. Hell, folks in Philly and Pittsburg consider us Central Pennsylvanians backwards hillbillies.
I've traveled to 44 states (by car), lived in PA, CA, and FLA and met racist shitheads in all of them, but I can't recall one state or area having the market cornered on hate.
Just sayin'.
Of course I meant Sweet Home Alabama. geez
When Alabama or Mississippi vote to repeal anti-miscegenation (anti interracial marriage) laws awhile back, 42% voted "no". That's a pretty good index of old-fashioned racism.
In Richmond VA a statue of Abraham Lincoln caused quite a serious uproar recently, though not enough to stop it.
However, the only racists left in this country are Sharpton, liberals who support affirmative action, and Sen. Byrd of WV.
>>Kerry Campaign Questioning Ohio Vote
John Kerry conceded the election more than a week ago, but lawyers for his campaign have begun to question the results of the vote count in Ohio, which sealed the victory for President Bush.
"The Kerry campaign has compiled a list of more than 30 questions for local election officials, asking about the number of absentee and provisional ballots, any reports of equipment malfunctions on election night," reports Thursday's Cleveland Plain Dealer.
While President Bush defeated Kerry in Ohio by 136,000 votes, the results won't be formally certified until early next month.
Kerry campaign counsel Dan Hoffheimer insists the inquiries are merely informational. "We're not expecting to change the outcome of the election," he told the Plain Dealer. "We want to be sure that the public knows what really happened."
Hoffheimer said he's responding to questions that have been raised on the Internet by Democrats who are still frustrated over Kerry's loss.
The doubters received a big boost Tuesday night when ABC's Peter Jennings said he was forced to cover some of the "stolen election" conspiracy theories as "a public service."
"We've been a little bit surprised by how many e-mails we've had suggesting that maybe once again the country got it wrong," Jennings told his "World News Tonight" audience. "We did think it might be a public service – and, quite frankly, cut back on the e-mails – if our ballot-watch correspondent Jake Tapper took another look."
Just sayin' it twice, apparently.
TENN (Big Nasty?),
Lots of Southern bashing takes place in the lefty blogs, especially here at Atrios.
Lots? What is lots? Three comments? Ten? Prove it.
Now. Otherwise, STFU.
Just sayin' it twice, apparently.
Twice is nice.
Ok here is a better synopsis than the link atrios provided:
"I]t sadly appears that some Alabama voters -- actually, a majority of them -- still wistfully pine for the days when blacks and white went to separate schools, rode on separate ends of the bus, and drank from separate water fountains. Amendment 2 on Tuesday's ballot proposed cleaning up the state constitution by removing some long-unenforced segregationist provisions that mandated separate-but-equal segregated schools, authorized unconstitutional poll taxes to bar blacks from voting, and specified that Alabamians have no constitutional right to public education (giving the state the power to deny funding to any integrated schools). Governor Bob Riley (R) supported the amendment. On the other side was Riley's likely 2006 primary opponent: ousted Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore. Moore -- who touts himself as "The Ten Commandments Judge" -- led the opposition to the repeal, arguing it could open the door to tax hikes in order to improve the state's public school system. The Alabama Christian Coalition also opposed the amendment, explaining that the group wanted "to ensure that reckless trial lawyers and activist judges will not be able to open the floodgates to increase taxes and that private, Christian, parochial and home-school families will be protected." The "tax hike" argument appears to be a red herring, however, as the Alabama Supreme Court already ruled in 1993 that the "no constitutional right to public education" provision was unconstitution under the US Constitution. Out of 1.4 million votes cast statewide, Amendment 2 appears to have lost by 2,500 votes. However, the state will conduct an automatic recount."
MisterX,
Ah yes, the famed Pennsyltucky.... Living just on the border myself, I've used that term, I'm ashamed to admit, though the secton of PA that borders is alarmingly rural and has literally no industry. And it's where my family came from, FWIW.
Some people here do South-bash, but with that fucking map shoved down our throats everywhere we turn, it is kind of understandable. But I can see where it might make the southerners who come here to be assured they're not alone uncomfortable and defensive, as it obviously does.
Vicki, congrats on your daughter's thing today! That's so cool!
My. Twat. Stinks. Period.
Lots of people in the South voted for Kerry, Gore and Clinton, including me.
There are plenty of southerners who post regularly in the comments, I can rattle off Backslider, PeskyFly, the estimable Mr. Jeffords, and Tena off the top of my head and I'm sure there's others that I'm leaving out. So screaching about the anti-southern bias here seems a little ridiculous.
Of course, as a Tennesean, I'm sure you're aware how well the South can live up to it's stereotypes, aside from the fact that liberals do indeed live here.
I mean, for gosh sakes right here in the middle of the Democratic enclave of Memphis, right in the middle of the medical center which sits smack dab between downtown and the very liberal midtown not even a block away from Sun Studios sits Nathan Bedford Forrest park (I've always wanted to put up a big sheet with "Remember Fort Pillow" written on it in big red letters right there on Union).
So while, yeah, it's somewhat grating to hear "fuck the south," the South comes by its reputation pretty honest, imho.
Well, things are getting better, though, as far as I can tell, and I'm from Mississippi. They are getting better quite rapidly, I'd say. I notice how groups of kids nowadays are racially mixed, and I even notice more mixed racial groups of friends that are much older. Its quite refreshing to see it sometimes, but then there is obviously the other side.
Anonymous
Let's just stop all this nonsense about saying Red States have "moral values" when an initiative to remove segregationist language from a state's constitution failed in 2004.
Where are the Media Whores? And how can they continue to propagate the myth that Red States vote on values when shit like this is going on?
Sadly, it's not limited to Alabama - Roy Barnes lost an election two years ago over trying to remove a Confederate symbol from the Georgia state flag. John McCain was defeated in the 2000 primaries when Bush operatives started a whisper campaign that he had an illegitimate black child.
Disgusting.
Pack up the plantation.
This is what's it's all about for many repugs, keep minorities in their place.
It's why candidates like GWB visit Bob Jones Univ, sending the message to their redneck supporters that we'er with you all the way. Yee haw!
It's why Bush's daddy appointed house nigger Clarence Thomas to replace Thurgood Marshall.
All this stuff is of a piece and anyone who says different is just whistling dixie.
only bashing that is allowed is that of 'liberal elites' in new york and the left coast.
"Play It All Night Long"
-- Warren Zevon
Grandpa pissed his pants again
He don't give a damn
Brother Billy has both guns drawn
He ain't been right since Vietnam
"Sweet home Alabama"
Play that dead band's song
Turn those speakers up full blast
Play it all night long
Daddy's doing Sister Sally
Grandma's dying of cancer now
The cattle all have brucellosis
We'll get through somehow
"Sweet home Alabama"
Play that dead band's song
Turn those speakers up full blast
Play it all night long
I'm going down to the Dew Drop Inn
See if I can drink enough
There ain't much to country living
Sweat, piss, jizz and blood
"Sweet home Alabama"
Play that dead band's song
Turn those speakers up full blast
Play it all night long
OT
>>Kerry Campaign Questioning Ohio Vote
They might be looking in the wrong place: http://www.consortiumnews.com/20...004/
110904.html
Hey pie? I'm jealous. I want a stalker too!!
Carpbasman,
Sadly, that's also NBF's grave--- and that of his wife.
SO CREEPY when the white supremist groups gather there to honor him. I'm sure there were some there today--- being Vets day and all.
Don't totally understand it either. He did try to disband the Klan after all--- when he found out what it was really all about.
And for those who don't know. I live in the house of the man who drove the Klan out of Memphis near the turn of the 20th Century. Makes me proud as punch to walk the floors.
Zeus -- I love that song. Who else but Mr. Zevon could work "brucellosis" into a rock & roll song?
* * *
I believe that at this point, "red stater" and "blue stater" are merely states of mind. I apparently live in a very red area of a red state, and none of this stuff offends me at all -- and I'm a lifelong Southerner.
This should be handled as it was during Reconstruction. If #2 passes, Massachusetts should get to throw out and rewrite Alabama's constitution.
You can't win the south without turning out the minority vote. And how exactly does the DLC or the moderate faction figure you're going to do that? Rush Limbaugh is a miserable bag of crap, but he's right about the moderate dems pandering to the left. When you work to cut welfare programs, when you support NAFTA and free-trade that cuts their jobs you aren't representing your base. So when you see how Dems have lost the South, and are about to lose the even the great lake states, you better realize this transparent pandering is to blame. The party leadership needs to be kicked out, we need to start representing Democrats not swing voters.
pie - no shit. At the meeting yesterday, one of the other poll watchers sat next to me and he had written a two page letter about what went on in this precinct he watched and the racism from the old white lady election judge was breathtaking.
I have a copy of his letter. I was stunned, really. I'm stupid enough to think that doesn't happen. Joke's on me. Only it isn't funny.
Zeus - one of my favorite Zevon songs.
There are plenty of southerners who post regularly in the comments, I can rattle off Backslider, PeskyFly, the estimable Mr. Jeffords, and Tena off the top of my head and I'm sure there's others that I'm leaving out. So screaching about the anti-southern bias here seems a little ridiculous.
Obviously there are a number of people in Red States who are committed to civil rights issues and racial and economic equality. But that doesn't mean race is gone as an issue - Nixon's "Southern Strategy" where politicians use bigoted code words and simplistic messages that appeal to people's ignorance and fear.
BTW, this doesn't just apply in Southern states, ugly conservative Rethuglicanism is prevalent in Red midewestern and western states and in the Red areas of Blue states. I live in WA but there are plenty of hard-core "red" areas once you leave Seattle, believe me.
The reason these messages are being used so persistently and effectively to this day is no mystery - we know that if Rethuglicans tried to appeal to the people their policies actually helped, they'd get a whopping 3 percent of the electorate. Without the ability to divide and subjugate, the Republican party would have nothing.
The way Republicans win elections is nothing to be proud of.
The party leadership needs to be kicked out, we need to start representing Democrats not swing voters.
Yeah, well, maybe. I'd like to see this as much as you, but bear in mind the only model that we know has recently worked is Bill Clinton's. Moderate Republicanism, right-wing Democraticism. But you know what? He got elected. Twice. The people advocating what you propose--Al Sharpton and Dennis Kucinich--couldn't even win the primaries. The Democratic primaries. Now along comes you, telling me they coulda been contenders? Hows that, again?
Your error, my friend, is callec generalizing from the specific. You have a lot of specific friends who feel the way you do, and you forget the general mass of Americans are, well, idiots.
When Johnson signed the National Civil Rights act he sais he'd "lost the south for the Democrats for the next 50 years," or something to that effect.
10 more years to go.
Sadly, I think LBJ nailed that one. But I think states like Tennessee and Arkansas might come around early if the right amount of organizational work is done.
I shall not question the activities of Kerry any longer.
For now.
"said" of course. Damn you Tennessee public school system!!!
They know how much it pisses off Yankees, so they vote this way. It's similar to African-American support of Al Sharpton. Black folks know he helped Tawana lie, but they figure any black leader who can so thoroughly piss off Caucasians must have something good going on.
Same sort of "fuck you" principle. - Slothrop
Supporting Al Sharpton just to piss off a bunch of racist crackers?
Hey - I resemble that remark!
And I'm not even Black (well, my great-grandma Rose was awfully swarthy -- so maybe ...) - but I'm Jewish, so maybe that's why.
Sadly, that's also NBF's grave--- and that of his wife.
That I did not know. Jesus Christ, enshrined as city father I guess.
Belay my previous comment. I re-read the post I responded to, and I mis-read him the first time. His argument seems to be that the Dems are too far Left, not Left enough. He's wrong on this count, too. (Thus proving that like a true pedant I can argue both sides).
it isn't really southern bashing. if this had happened in wisconsin it would be just as bad, and people here would be just as critical of it. it's not our fault it was alabama.
dr pedant,
in dnc's hunger for swing voters, kerry muddied his message in trying to appeal to both groups. what we did we get for the effort? bush made gains in the black, hispanice and women vote. we can't afford to lose our base.
Dr. Pedant.
The Clinton model isn't all that good. In 96 beat Dole by about 8-million votes. Perot got about 8-million votes.
The libs actually looked better in 2000 when Gore won the popular vote by half a mil, and Nader took an additional 3-mil.
Yeah, Clinton won. Hard to argue there. But we've been a pretty 50/50 country for some time--- a country where winners seldom take a true majority.
And it could happen in Wisconsin. I didn't know I was Jewish till I moved there (true story). The anti-semites knew, though. They're even harder on people of color.
Hey, TENN? You know how many of the regulars hereabouts are from the South? Like specifically Texas?
Doozer (that's me!)
Tena
Holden Caulfield
Robert M Jeffers (Philostopher in Residence)
fourlegsgood
texanembarrassedbybush (sp?)
I know I'm leaving out several, sound off if you wanna.
So, TENN, what you take as South-Bashing is really more like what Juan Cole would call Informed Comment.
what did rove do? he rallied his base instead of taking them for granted. maybe we should emulate what succeeds.
Dr. Pedant,
OTOH - wouldn't you agree, at least looking at the precarious positions of centrists in Congress, that Harry Truman's observations regarding moderate Dems. still apply? People would rather vote Republican than Republican-Lite?
Anyway, to most people, thanks to the media, all Dems. are liberal (even Joltin' Joe Lieberman) anyway, so we don't necessarily loose swing voters by nominating a real liberal.
As you point out, we need to be careful about generalizations. I would suggest, though, that 2000 proved that the only way Clintonism works is with the Big Dog (and his wonderful political skills) at the helm - indeed, Gore started doing better when he turned a wee bit more populist (against the advice of Joe Lieberman even if Gore wasn't really saying anything to the left of even Ol' Joe's Senate record).
Interestingly, many people in my lab, ranging from die-hard leftists to people who complain about the Dems. being too liberal (!), supported Dean in the primaries.
I have big-time nomination remorse about Kerry and remorse for not supporting Dean more myself. He may have been bad at meta-politics (describing his strategy ... you know the whole "confederate flag" debacle) and that screwed him in the news-media coverage - but hey - that's slanted against us anyway. All's I know is that a very good cross section of folks, ranging from liberal Dems. to rather conservative Dems. like Dean.
Oh well, I cannot blame myself too much - I didn't vote against Dean - thanks to NJ note having any say in the nomination process, which sucks even more than this whole red-state/blue-state thing!
y
And that's what killed Gore. Sure, he was a far cry from Bush but the "what's the dif" meme took hold and stuck. Too much centerism makes it hard for voters to see the distinctions. I actually think Kerry really started to define himself at the end. But by then it was too late. Osama was back and word on the street was "orange."
it could definitely happen in wisconsin. well, maybe not, since i don't think they have anything in their constitution to consider repealing. but as anyone who has ever been to boston can tell you, racism is not just a southern thing.
anything like that in their constitution to consider repealing.
And that's what killed Gore.
I was with you till this. Remember one thing--Gore won.
TENN, Doozer among Fraggles:
And there are more of us who, while not from the South proper, come from very red counties with a strong Southern heritage.
For example, I was born and raised in OC California: deep red and, in the civil war days, lousy with Southern sympathizers (as was So.Cal. in general).
Some of us figure we have our eyes wider open 'cause we grew up in areas with a certain kinda history.
Indeed, I knew many people in undergrad (UCI seemed to attract an inordinate amount of folk form Modesto) who didn't understand why people like me were so anti-Republican. But I was able to open their eyes to what the real Republican party was about ... many people here in the Blue parts of the country (and even people in Magenta parts like Modesto) are not fully aware of the Deep-Red Republican agenda, only of the local moderate Republicans (I can tell you that at a local level here in Middlesex County NJ, the Republicans are often a lot more sensible than the hopelessly corrupt local Democrats) and happily vote for GWB and his ilk simply because they don't know the code. But we who grew up in certain parts of the country should serve as fonts of information to tell them what the code really means.
Oh well, I am rambling ... I think it's time for me to get dinner. I had a point, but I forgot what it was.
Dr. Pedant
There never would have been a Florida recount if Gore's centerism hadn't driven so many into the arms of Nader. So yes, he did win. But he still got creamed if you smell what I'm stepping in.
I shouldn't say "Gore's centerism"-- because that's not correct. The perception was "Republican lite." That sent Nader the 3-mil that could have made all the diffrence.
We need more Perots to screw the Conservative vote.
Can we find one, and fund one the eay the GOP backed Nader this time?
Not that Ralphie-boy made much nevermind this time around.
gore was able to keep the women & black vote.
While were on the racism = south issue, just to remind people, the KKK originated in Indiana.
And they didn't secede from the union.
bigotry existed everywhere as MisterX has stated.
From my standpoint it was the poorest, most religious areas that were often the most bigoted.
MYOB'
.
I live in a very red county in a very blue state, (CA) so it can go both ways. The rural areas with more uneducated people tend to vote red. It's a sad thing but true.
It's shameful to even accept votes from these bigots.
What a fucking joke.
y
Gore didn't have black preachers bashing Gay marriage.
There is terrible homophobia within the African American community. Most of the folks I know in my hood voted Kerry though they openly admitted that the gay thing had them worried.
Jesus kills us every time.
I actually think Kerry really started to define himself at the end. But by then it was too late. Osama was back and word on the street was "orange."
PeskyFly
Finally, someone who agrees with me. The "Values" crowd turned out to be overvalued, it wasn't the economy, stupid, and many pundits are saying that Terrorism/Homeland security was the deciding factor. I'm convinced that OBL's BOO! scared just enough of the rubes to turn the trick. (OH and FL being entirely another kettle of monkeys).
Now, of course, you can devide the electorete into a zillion blocks of votes, each large enough to have made a difference somewhere, and harp on the block of your choice as The One That Got Away (we're still doing that with 2000), but I really think this is the only explanation for a loss that none of us saw coming. I think the reason we were all so damned sure is very simple; we were right. Up until Friday afternoon...
MYOB'
Don't know where you learned your Klan history. It started in Pulaski, Tennessee.
It fell apart later on and then became a faddish thing again after Birth of a Nation made those robes look SO COOL!
I just put a few textual details of the amendment in question up on Newsfare.
So nice to be hearing from Roy Moore again. Just when I thought we finished with him. Such an inventive fellow.
My US passport reminds me that I am an Alabamian by birth, and I did spent 15 years of my life there. I stayed as long as ninth grade, and I attended J.O. Johnson High School in Huntsville. Though my elementary school was approximately 50%-50% "white - non-white" (as was denoted every day on a report sent up to the office), as a Caucasian I was a minority in middle and high school.
In 1988 my biology teacher, Ms. Hall, wore her Jesse Jackson button proudly, as she had been a delegate from Alabama to the DNC. She has since found employment at a community college but more importantly has been elected to the Alabama State Legislature. She is the rep. for where I used to live.
Once I found out how far she has gone, I Googled her positions on the Alabama Constitution. Unfortunately, she knows that a new Constitution Convention is needed to jettison the unwieldy document, but she is legitimately concerned that African-Americans would be underrepresented at such a convention due to the time required away from work, etc.
About near broke my heart, because Rep. Hall is right. Even if they have a Convention, who are the types of people who would have the money and time to work through the many issues?
DAF
Yep. I'm on that train too.
That sent Nader the 3-mil...
Four years later and we're still having this argument. Sad. But you are wrong. Had Gore gone Left, he would have lost two votes for every one Nader vote he gained.
Ulitmately (and there were polls that addressed this) the Nader vote did not matter. Most of the Nader voters never would have voted for Gore, is what it boiled down to. Wouldn't have made any difference to Gore's margin, either way.
As far as Perot is concerned, (and there were polls here too) had he not been in the race his votes would have been split evenly between Clinton and Bush I ('92), and Clinton and Dole ('96), resulting in a Clinton win both times.
The big problem, though, is your argument that moving Left is what the candidate needs to do. To me, that's nuts. (I'd like to see it, but nuts). I don't share, at all, your faith that Americans would vote Left. And you have absolutely no evidence for this proposition; just wishful thinking.
I'm going off to dinner now. Have the last word.
PeskyFly , kerry didn't pay attention to black churches till the final weeks of the campaign. that's called taking your base for granted.
listen to cspan forum of african american turnout in 2004, via low-country & chesapeake society, to hear their critique.
Gore didn't have black preachers bashing Gay marriage.
Christ, you never run out of (other) folks to blame, do you?
Maybe you sat on your ass too much; ever think of that?
I really am tired of you; you're not just pesky, you're fucking stupid.
"We've been a little bit surprised by how many e-mails we've had suggesting that maybe once again the country got it wrong," Jennings told his "World News Tonight" audience.
"Once again"? Is that Jennings saying that or the e-mails?
And either way it wasnt " the country" that got it wrong. SCOTUS
Dr. Pedant
Um, actually I did lots of get out the vote work in some very poor black neighborhoods.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard those words about Gay folks I could have brought one of those famalies out of poverty.
So you can fucking pretend that you know something or you can listen to a footsoldier who has been on the front.
And let me tell you, calling your strong, hard working allies "stupid" won't help unify the fucking party. Dumbass.
Okay, you're not a dumbass, but you really don't get it. Poor black communities are prone to falling to GOP "moral majority" BS. I live next door to a church the size of a thimble with more members than can fit. And I talk, listen and learn
So who is stupid my man?
OK, I had to step away.
Pie, the Southern bashing is rampant here any day of the week and across most lefty blogs I visit. You still don't get it. So, you STFU.
You people that think Kerry lost because of dumb racists in the South really need to get out more.
Instead of looking at yourselves, all you're doing is looking for fault everywhere else.
that post sucks.
i visit the site all the time, but damn atrios sometimes you really piss me off.
y
The Dems have taken black voters for granted since LBJ signed the papers.
It's a VERY christian community, and in the South it's both poor (mostly), and poorly educated (mostly). Ripe for the GOP picking if they play their cards right. As dumb as Condi is, and as ineffective as Powell has been they at least look good.
Plus there's a lot of pro-life, anti-gay values there. The capital we got from the NCR '64 is running out. We've got to show more love.
Might as well keep it in there for the coming return to the 1950s.
Hecate
Heckitty,
it's the 1850s we're aiming for here...with the prospect of the Gilded Age looming like a lamp in a tunnel...
I just got home from seeing The Polar Express. It's as thinly disguised, thickly padded a paean to the politics of belief--as opposed, very literally--to rational discourse. Just believe!!! Close your eyes, click your heels three times, and leave the world of living color...
The dematerialization of the known (Tom Hanks, in two or three roles; I couldn't tell if he was also the avatar for Santa) and the unknown (a handful of cute, but otherwise indistinguishable, children) and their rendering as electronically transmogrified book characters (the admiration of the animators for VanAllsburg's dramatic and remarkable illustrations in the book is not slave-like imitation, but homage) is eery! It looks and feels like an enormous--but distressingly familiar--video game...
It's very effective cinematography, compelling images, vivid ultra-real virtuality, heavily canonic imagerry--I mean, Santa? What's not to love?.. It tweaks your every sensitivity and sensibility.
I just wish the little girl didn't remind me of Condoleeza Rice
Pedant,
You miss my point on Gore. It's not a question of going left or going right. It's a question of defining yourself and your campaign so that voters have a clear choice.
And I can promise you, Gore wouldn't have lost a vote, and would have picked up Nader votes if not for the "Bush and Gore are the same" meme that ran rampant through that campaign.
I never said move left or move right. I said BE CLEAR ABOUT WHO YOU ARE.
For a pedant you have much to learn about reading comp.
I don't blame Nader for anything. And I think Gore's platform was strong. He just didn't define himself.
How many times did people ask, "Who is Al Gore, really?" That question is a killer.
Reckon this will stimulate some more op ed pieces about how WE should study THEIR morals?
While were on the racism = south issue, just to remind people, the KKK originated in Indiana.
And they didn't secede from the union.
bigotry existed everywhere as MisterX has stated.
Actually, the original KKK was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee, but had disbanded by 1880.
The second Klan was founded near Atlanta in 1915. It was this Klan that controlled the governments of Indiana, Oklahoma, and Oregon, as well as several souther states, played a significant role in the Saskatchewan provincial election of 1929, and claimed President Warren Harding, Justice Hugo Black, and Senator Robert Byrd as members. (Byrd has since repudiated the Klan on several occasions.) This group was disbanded in 1944, at which point the name "Ku Klux Klan" fell into the public domain.
A number of groups using the name were formed in the '60s. (I can remember a fellow high school in Northern Indiana claim in about 1976 to be a Klansman, and I know someone who told me about a Klan rally in Elwood, Indiana, in the early 1990s. When one of the Klan groups staged a march a few years ago in Pulaski, Tennessee, all the local merchants closed for the day so as not to have to discriminate by refusing to serve them.
Wikipedia has a detailed article on the Klan.
Pesky:
JC Watts, that profligate pig-skin tosser and illegetimate child-begetter in the wildernesses of Okiedom, was running for Congress as Republican. His daddy, running for the Corporation Commission as a Democrat at the same time, was asked about this seeming anomaly and was quoted in reply: "Son, a black man doing bidness with Republicans is like a chicken doing bidness with Col. Sanders."
There is terrible homophobia within the African American community. Most of the folks I know in my hood voted Kerry though they openly admitted that the gay thing had them worried.
Jesus kills us every time.
Naaah, Jesus is fine with gay people.
Think about it. A very sensitive guy. 33 years old and still a "confirmed bachelor." Like wine.
I'm not saying. I'm just saying.
Likes. Likes wine.
Feh.
not picking on you pesky, just using your quote as a jumping off point.
I actually think Kerry really started to define himself at the end. But by then it was too late
hopefully the lesson has been learned. next time that dems vote in primaries, vote for a candidate who knows who he is. somebody who isn't going to take precious precious time figuring what it is he actually stands for. hopefully people will remember that a military background isn't a magic silver bullet. remember that a bitchin' resume doesn't guarantee the election. too many people were looking for a gimmick. "oooh, oooh, oooh, a vietnam vet should do the trick!" or my favorite one of all: "kerry looks presidential." what the hell? that was good one. i'm telling you we can't win through gimmickery. a candidate who knows who he is isn't going to have a hard time connecting with people. anybody trying to spin that he's "the real deal" in all likelyhood, probably isn't. somebody truly authentic doesn't need to harp that he is authentic, because that recognition goes without saying.
next time, vote for somebody real.
Instead of looking at yourselves, all you're doing is looking for fault everywhere else.
Oh, you're in trouble.
Look, sweetheart. If you have a gripe with a poster or six of them, you confront THEM. Don't pull that *you're all doing that shit* with me.
I'll cut you off at the knees.
Do I make myself clear, or do I have to draw you a picture?
The Alabama constitution of 1901 is a notoriously horrendous mess which has been amended more than 740 times; titles of recent amendments have been "Bingo Games in Town of White Hall", "Polling Places in Tuscaloosa County", and "Amendment of Amendment No. 507."
Practically everyone who practices law in Alabama agrees that the 1901 constitution, the sixth in the state's history, needs to be scrapped and rewritten. Since I'm not an Alabama voter, I'm not familiar with the ballot measure, but I think it's safe to say that it didn't even begin to solve the problem it was intended to solve.
An Alabamian coworker more familiar with the issue than I tells me that the entire 1901 constitution was written with Jim Crow in mind, and that many of its provisions are in fact inoperative, having been struck down by the SCOTUS.
It is a misperception to interpret the defeat of this referendum as evidence of widespread racist sentiment, although it's worth noting that one of its outspoken opponents is former Chief Justice Roy Moore, removed from office for refusing to obey a court order to remove a Ten Commandments monument from a public building.
Moore's opposition is ostensibly centered around the assertion that the amendment could lead to tax increases.
Seraphiel
Raised in the theatre... and in the church.
I know that the alleged son of our invisible sky buddy doesn't hate anybody. AND I don't think we should ever back off an inch on any civil rights issue. But when you ignore a traditionally strong Democratic group that is dominated by conservative religious notions... they find it easier to trust the preacher than the Candidate from Mass.
Konopelli
Funny you mention the KFC thing. An honest to goodness street pimp (old school, needs his own soundtrack) said the EXACT same thing to me when I was hanging Kerry/Edwards GOTV lit at his apartment building.
Turned out that pimp/dime bag dealer knew a helluva lot more about politics and events of the day than his church-going brethren.
I'm with you man, but sadly NOBODY in America makes their kids put on a tie once a week to listen to high-energy music about geography, or hear a wise old man lecture about economics. They get gussied up and go listen to Leviticus. Here the GOP has a real wedge. And they promote minorities QUICKLY because they understand the value of image over substance.
God help us all, how symbolic is that. We're willing to watch our children fight each other for minimum wage service jobs they're not qualified for if we can just get it written down somewhere that we're better that somebody
It'd about break your heart.
for people blaming religion, check out these church signs:
Jesus loves you
Bush doesn't
y
Never blame religion. Blame the bastards who use it to line their pockets and get their own way.
Even Jesus warned against trusting people who made a big show of their faith.
They just don't push that bit in the Evangelical churches.
ok, I'm not going to go all over the thread arguing with people, but I do have a few objections to raise.
I'm a native Hoosier who has lived on both coasts and a few places in between. I currently live in Tennessee and work in Alabama.
At this point, nobody in North America can justifiably point fingers at the South when it comes to racism. Nobody. Not Indiana, not Chicago, not Idaho, not Pennsylvania, not Massachusetts.
Not Oregon.
Not New York.
Not California.
The South-bashing has been pretty intense this week, althugh admittedly it mostly hasn't come from the regulars. I for one am getting pretty fucking tired of it; I spent an entire solid evening this week dressing down stupid assholes making fun of the South.
I've been all over the South,as well as all over the North, and I can tell you where I mostly run into racist bigots these days: Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan. Chicago, to some extent.
Now I've had way more of this subject than I can stand. On to other things.
On to other things.
Wise decision. Let's kick ass, not each other.
PeskyFly,
Back from dinner. I apologize for my intemperate comment. But dig this: the idea that you're espousing, that we had two candidates who didn't know who they were or what they stood for? That was the republican message. You have simply internalized it. Kerry and Gore were both in the Senate. Long records of who and what they were. It was the other side that said that Gore was a liar and Kerry was a flip-flopper. You just bought it, hook, line, and sinker (I think).
Anyone who cared knew who Gore was; knew who Kerry was.
And where is it "confirmed" that Jesus was never married. I have never seen this claimed in any scriptural account. As a matter of fact, in the society that Jesus lived in, it was almost mandatory for a man to marry and have kids, and had he not, this would have surely been referred to somewhere. I suspect that the "unmarried, celebate Jesus" meme was put about at the same time Jesus became deified by the Paulines in the late first and subsequent centuries.
Antoinetta III
"So while, yeah, it's somewhat grating to hear "fuck the south," the South comes by its reputation pretty honest, imho."
--I am someone who was born, raised, and educated in Southern California. I moved to Mississippi eleven years ago. After three and a half years, I moved to Memphis. And then, after a years there, I moved to Nashville, where I've lived ever since.
--I've seen a lot of the South. And speaking from fiirst-hand experience living in this region for the past eleven and a half years and watching and interacting with these people up close, I believe that I'm qualified to say that while there are exceptions (and there are MORE exceptions in a city like Nashville) the fact is the South DOES come by its reputation honestly.
--The South does not have a monopoly on hate, bigotry, incest, racism, small-mindedness and/or ignorance. However, per capita, these things are much more prevalent here than they are in places like California or Washington or New York.
--I agree: Fuck the South.
Dr. Pedant
No, I've not internalized it. I know it was the GOP message. And I watched it work.
He didn't define himself, and the GOP USED that to put the meme across.
"Those who cared"--- that's the problem. Given the problems with our mainstream media it's DAMN hard to be really, truly informed. You have to work at it. And folks who are working overtime, and raising the kiddies don't have the time or the energy to go out and get the truth. They catch what they can, and the GOP frame the language of issues, and often the perception of their opponants.
Now I work overtime, and raise my kiddies, but I'm also a complete geek and I work for the Alternative media. But 99% of America can't or won't put forth the effort to become informed. THAT'S why the candidates MUST define themselves early, and continue to define themselves until the end.
It took Kerry until the debates to clearly explain his Iraq vote. All anybody had to do was watch the footage of his vote to understand what he voted for and why. But what got more time, Kerry's Iraq vote footage, or the Swift Boaters.
Got to work twice as hard and be twice as good to get half as far. No room for mistakes.
And I understand your frustration. We're all deep inside of this and we're splitting the split ends trying to figure out what went wrong and where to go. Lover's spats will happen because we care TOO much, and even the hardest workers have limited power. But we should ask one another questions before we call one another names. This is a fractured and impersonal form--- it's easy to blow context, or miss a wry turn of phrase.
I'd rather have a passionate thinker who thinks I'm an idiot on my team than an idiot who thinks I'm a passionate thinker. Catch it?
Catch it?
You betcha.
Keep on keepin' on. And I will too.
oh come on doc, kerry was as phony as a 3 dollar bill. he thought he could win the primaries by posing in a leather jacket and rolling a harley on stage. he thought he could win the election by askin' for a huntin' license (when did he start dropping his Gs?) and killin' him some geese. he had a different posture for each state. the weakest thing about his campaign was lack of consistency. you think people can't spot a poseur? made him look like a fool.
i blame his handlers for thinking that tactic worked. and i blame kerry for allowing himself to be overhandled.
that was me.
JK47,
Mr. Regan? No shit. I had that asshole at Bayview Middle for his gifted science class. What a freakin moron.
Did you go to Ft. Lauderdale for HS then? My name finally came up on the waiting list for Nova, so I went to high school out in Davie. Much better than Ft. Laud.
Look. If you boycott southern business and manufacturing, who do you think you're hurting? Who do you think will get laid off first when the businesses start to falter? If you want to make damn sure black people suffer, then go ahead and boycott southern products. Fucking idiots.
Someone please explain it to me again . . .
Exactly WHY didn't Lincoln let these animals leave the Union?
Let me clarify - my last post is only directed at the numbskulls who continue to advocate punishing black workers for white bigotry. Sadly, this has picked up here at Eschaton lately. Why is it that a few people here can't see that the "fuck the south" rhetoric makes use of the same Cartesian ideological pigheadedness as "with us or against us"?
Exactly WHY didn't Lincoln let these animals leave the Union?
Because Lincoln was smart enough not to believe in the kind of rhetoric that dehumanized people he didn't understand. It's something we liberals are usually pretty good at.
You can't win the south without turning out the minority vote. And how exactly does the DLC or the moderate faction figure you're going to do that? Rush Limbaugh is a miserable bag of crap, but he's right about the moderate dems pandering to the left. When you work to cut welfare programs, when you support NAFTA and free-trade that cuts their jobs you aren't representing your base. Posted by:spectator consumer
As a black person, I really don't agree with you. These issues do not realy turn black people out. Clinton supported all of those things and he is worshiped by the black community. In fact, you sound like one of those silly repugnicans (not saying that you are) who think black people vote for democrats because they offer them welfare. The truth is black people vote for democrats for the same reason most white people do, because we see them as people of compassion who believe in representing those who have traditionally not had a voice. I'm in South Carolina, a state with a 35% black population, yet is still heavily Repugnican. why is that? Because rural blacks still have a slave mentality. they will sucumb to the will of Massa, because that is all they have ever known. In other words the message is not out-- You Matter!!!!!!!!! They have no idea that there are white people like those I encounter on the internets, who are just as offended as I am (if not more so) about Alabama keeping segregationist language in their constitution. Bill Clinton had a way of letting them know that they mattered, and sadly, although he cared just as much, John Kerry did not. Let a prominent white man, begin huge voter registration drives, and educational programs in the rural South and watch how these right wing thugs become scared. And let me make one thing perfectly clear to you from a black perspective-- the biggest reason southern whites hate Clinton, is not because he had an affair, but because black people loved him and he gave them a reason to believe.
Thanks, Sean. Thanks.
Not that this thread has anything to do with its original topic but ...
I know it's fun to harp on Alabama. I do it too. It's easy for me, because I'm from there. But while I did vote YES on the amendment, and was pissed that it seems not to have passed, the earlier posters are correct in that its real-world effect would have been absolutely nothing.
Taking words out of a document doesn't mean shit when those word have been castrated years earlier.
But you know what, Alabama isn't one of the states that passed a gay marriage ban.
Alabama isn't the state of the Klan, or Bob Jones University, or Focus on the Family.
Alabama IS the place where the civil rights movement began. It IS the place where MLK marched from Selma to Montgomery. It IS a state that still has a Democratic state legislature and where even the Republican governor works for more equitable (higher) taxes.
So those of you in Oregon and Ohio, enjoy your gay marriage bans whilst you laugh at southerners. We're fucked up, but you're no better, pal.
Exactly WHY didn't Lincoln let these animals leave the Union?
Because Lincoln was smart enough not to believe in the kind of rhetoric that dehumanized people he didn't understand. It's something we liberals are usually pretty good at.
Lefty Loosy | Email | Homepage | 11.11.04 - 10:54 pm | #
I see. So you're saying that he faught to keep southerners in the Union in because he saw the fundamental humanity of southerners and wanted to give them a chance to change their ways? Is that what you are saying? Or was it because, understanding their true humanity (even when they acted inhumanly), he saw that they were just a big part of the great big American family, for all of their flaws, this big American family needed these poor misguided fools?
Do any of my attempts at comprehending what you are saying come close to being accurate re-phrasings of why you think it is that Lincoln didn't want to let these people go to form their own country?
Jesus was not only brown skinned, but he was also a Jew and a liberal.
Until late in his life, Lincoln did not believe black people were the equals of whites. He eventually changed his mind about that. Like many liberals, when presented with a metaphysical alternative, he was able to see past the dehumanizing ideological rhetoric that had previously blinded him.
After the war, he didn't listen to most of his political allies who wanted to punish the animals down south; instead he offered to initiate a massive Reconstruction of the South. One might speculate that he had learned something from his experience.
Ah, but Kevin Drum and the moderates will tell you that only a tiny percentage of Republicans are racists.
BULLCRAP.
Just 40 years ago lynching negros was legal in the south. The vast majority of whites were staunch racists.
Two generations later, racism is less of a problem and the racists have learned to soften their language in public. But racism is one of the 2 or 3 core messages behind everything that holds the Republican party together.
FIW I spend a lot of time in AL. The places I go are surprisingly diverse with plenty of Kerry/Edwards stickers and some strongly held liberal beliefs amongst the (admittedly quite well-heeled) white population. Those of the white population who are committed to Bush, that I've discussed politics with, are that way because they're yellow dog Republicans. Without exception they have admitted to reservations about his record and motives. Of course, I'm probably wise enough to avoid the subject if I sense uncritical support.
The black population I have talked with have generally received pro-Bush signals from their churches based on gay marriage and abortions. But I never felt this was a clincher, and I firmly believed that I succeeded in ensuring some Dem votes by explaining that, no matter how uncomfortable one might feel about these matters, they were not relevant compared with the pressing issues of life, death, warfare, jobs, healthcare, social security, etc.
Inevitably the people I've met have been more generous, decent, open-minded, humorous and thoughtful than one might imagine from stereotypes.
My wifey is from Birmingham and she had to get out of there. That's the DEEEEEP South and trust me, she says North Carolina is like Massachusetts compared to Alabama. As with any place in the South, you can find pockets of progressive thinking, but AL is a Red state for good reason.
I had to ask her about this nonsense so I could respond. She said there is a significant number of crackers in Alabama have no clue that these beliefs are as backward as they are to the outside world. They are proud of their roots and traditions and have a selective memory regard sh*t like Bull Connor siccing dogs on people. This is why you've got people driving cars down the street with air horns that blare "Dixie" and they don't think it offends anyone. Entirely too recently she said there was a legendary sign at the entrance to a town called Cullman that said, "Welcome to Cullman", and as a subhead it said: "N*gger, don't let the sun set behind your back."
Pam's House Blend
I, for one, would welcome the sight of anything south of the Mason-Dixon line sinking beneath the waves forever in the flood following total global warming.
Ok, and they are part of the Union, why?
These people are allowed to vote for president along with me? Holy fucking christ, that is disgusting.
Sounds like the Alabama congressional delegation would strongly support:
The Strom Thurmond American Legacy Commemoration Act
Co-sponsored by Trent Lott (R-MS) and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, the Strom Thurmond Act would bar Federal funds to any state not displaying both the Confederate flag and the Ten Commandments at all public buildings, facilities and property. STALCA also includes the "Big House" credit offered by Lott, which makes tax deductible all child care payments made to the illegitimate offspring of a taxpayer's domestic servants.
For more, see:
"An Expanded Second Term Agenda?"
3/4 of the way down and the does a nigger blast. I wish that guy would chill,nigga(note spelling).
I'm from Louisiana and David Duke was in a CLOSE race for govenor no less than 20 years ago. NUFF SAID
but because black people loved him and he gave them a reason to believe.
i've seen blacks start to reassess their fondness for clinton.
blacks in prisons tripled under his term. clinton did nothing to reform a racist judicial system and its racist drug laws. clinton's even stated that was one of his regrets. like with many other things, he's being disingenuous. clinton didn't even try to reform the system.
remember, clinton wasn't above exploiting racism. sistah soldier was a naked appeal to racism that won him some swing voters. everybody knows talking about gunning down cops is bad thing. you didn't need clinton to point that out to you. that was a calculated move.
the clintonistas tried to replicate that sistah soldier moment by having kerry/edwards comment on cheney's lesbian daughter. only they didn't have the finess that clinton had and it backfired on them. it might have worked the first time, but by then people were hip to the tactic. like i said, trying to be slick with gimmicks doesn't win elections.
Roastbeef--
Yeah, I went on to Fort Lauderdale High, which was equally as segregated and as shitty as the piece of shit middle school I went to.
As far as I know, there is no Bayview Middle School-- Bayview is the elementary school there. So I'm assuming if you had the racist Mr. Regan that you went to Sunrise Middle, which is where I went to school. Maybe we were there at the same time-- I graduated high school in 1990 and was at Sunrise Middle from 1983-1986.
These issues do not realy turn black people out. Clinton supported all of those things and he is worshiped by the black community.
wherever blacks didn't turn out is because their vote was taken for granted. or white candidates don't seek their vote till the last minute. when all of a sudden they show up. you can't know what matters to a community like that. black people are like everybody else. they wanted to be courted. they want to be wooed. and not taken for granted.
donna brazile jokes about this phenomena. she calls it "drive-by campaigning."
I'll bash the south all I want, thank you.
I've lived here almost all of my life, and love it warts 'n all.
But only shame will neutralize the cracker-factor. They're just the hole that big money sticks it in when they wanna fuck us all. To paraphrase Chris Rock, "...and crackers have got ta go!"
[/rant]
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Of course, I should confess, in the interests of full disclosure and all, that those of us in the southwest really look down our noses at the deep south. That's probably pretty funny to a Yankee, but it's true. It's like when I found out about the pecking order among ethnic groups in Asia. Poor Vietnam.
Anyway, all this crackers-on-parade stuff has reminded me of a truly awful song, the kind of thing that couldn't happen to nicer people:
Here's to the state of Mississippi
For underneath her border, the devil draws no line
If you drag her muddy rivers, nameless bodies you will find
And the fat trees of the forest have hid a thousand crimes
And the calendar is lying, when it reads, the present time
Oh here's to the land you've torn out the heart of
Mississippi find yourself some other country to be part of...
-Phil Ochs
Well, things are getting better, though, as far as I can tell, and I'm from Mississippi.
I grew up in Mississippi in the 60's. I'm here to tell you that the situation here is light-years advanced from a time when my father took off work early to take my mother out to dinner because "that rabble-rousing nigger got shot" on April 4, 1968...
I talked with the author of that failed referendum.
He eventually campaigned against it, because a lawmaker had secretly attached a "trojan horse" clause to it that would have thrown education funding into the hands of state courts.
He is actively seeking to resubmit his proposal, WITHOUT any amendments, to rid the Alabama constitution of racist language.
(By the way -- he is the VP of a conservative think tank. If this guy is supposedly an example of a "conservative Alabama racist," he wouldn't have sponsored the provision in the first place.)
I talked with the author of that failed referendum.
He eventually campaigned against it, because a lawmaker had secretly attached a "trojan horse" clause to it that would have thrown education funding into the hands of state courts.
He is actively seeking to resubmit his proposal, WITHOUT any amendments, to rid the Alabama constitution of racist language.
(By the way -- he is the VP of a conservative think tank. If this guy is supposedly an example of a "conservative Alabama racist," he wouldn't have sponsored the provision in the first place.)
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